Comments for en-gb 30 Fri 11 Jul 2014 16:13:33 GMT+1 A feed of user comments from the page found at Samriddh Aanad Talks are possible only if there is a socio-political willingness between both countries. Only political force can not resolve the problem. Public of both sides must be cohesively involved. But that is not possible as people of both countries have enough envy and enmity to sabotage the talks. Instead I would prefer to have covert actions against the ISI to clip its wings and selectively destroying terrorist training camps and hideouts. India should also continue to pose its presence in Baluchistan. Sat 13 Mar 2010 08:48:05 GMT+1 Zer00 So it turns out, Pakistanis on the board are refusing to accept any reports from Indian media or International media. They don’t seem to want to believe any documented facts of Pakistan's wrongdoings (like the disturbing stories of Bangladesh) and believe that all problems that are currently prevalant in the sub-continent is totally India's fault. This attitude seems to be prevalent with the Pakistani officials as well where they are more interested in making claims in the media as to how India is begging on her knees to talk to them rather than do anything fruitful or meaningful! Now how exactly are we supposed to talk to them? Tue 09 Mar 2010 19:28:38 GMT+1 U14366952 @Shahrukh_Khan:We do not need a certificate from Pakistan on India’s Secular fabric. I will elucidate why..Your faux pas that “Shahrukh, he PROUDLY announced TO ALL that his family IS basically from Pakistan“ this gibberish line,made me and I am sure the audience here go berserk with laughter ha ha. Better stop reading Newspapers edited by Jamad ud dawa’s Hafiz saeed.Did you pick this from the so called infamous and Pathetic ‘KASHMIR SOLIDARITY RALLY’ in the valley, where people come to rant and lament, organized in Pakistan occupied Kashmir(PoK)?“SHARUKH KHAN(Bollywood Actor) was born in 1965 to Muslim parents of Pathan descent in New Delhi, India.[6] His father, Taj Mohammed Khan, was an Indian independence activist from Peshawar, British India. According to Khan, his paternal grandfather was originally from Afghanistan.[7] His mother, Lateef Fatima, was the adopted daughter of Major General Shah Nawaz Khan of the Janjua Rajput clan, who served as a General in the Indian National Army of Subash Chandra Bose.[8]” After the death of his parents, Khan moved to Mumbai in 1991.[14] In that same year, before any of his films were released, he married Gauri Chibber, a Hindu, in a traditional Hindu wedding ceremony on 25 October 1991”His father was Afghan and Grand father served in the Indian National Army of Bose , So your contention that Sharukh Khan ,the actor is a Pakistani is a FARCE.Also, he has married a Hindu , has a son with Hindu name Aryan, feels bad huh?This actor is Indian by all means.I really wonder after this level of knowledge and glib response, marked by lack of intellectual depth, should people even try reason with you and is it worth the effort? I won’t be surprised if you come tomorrow and say that our honorable president Abdul Kalam belongs to Pakistan just because of his Muslim name.Now your to your comment on Shiv Sena “Your proud Shiv Sena (ARMY OF SHIV, wow!) goes on a rampage” :Your innuendos against India and using SHIV SENA as justification, to rant against India, are no match for the extremism hate and terror inflicted by Jamat Ud Dawa, Laskar e Tayyaba and Hizbul Mujahideen on India.SHIV SENA is a nobody when compared to the Satanic Intelligence service, the ISI your country has,which virtually runs Pakistan.Your intelligence service and army are a pain in the neck to the world.It has supported the Taliban for years to fight the Soviets.It now covertly supports the Afghan Taliban to harm the Afgani people(who are friends of India and Muslims).It also sends bomb squads to attack Indian embassy staff and civilians in Kabul. BTW:It is named after the Maratha ruler who brought Aurangzeb’s empire to its knees to put an end to his fanatic regime with the spineless last Mogul Bahadur Shah Zafar.So I use WOW !! as you do often, as a befitting reason for the collapse of the Mughals.Now briefly to Babri masjid and Kashmir Human rights ###########################################Kashmir Human Rights: links you have given, only you would have read these sites, people don’t even know them. It says “Some of the mass graves contain 3 to 17 bodies.” , How do you these were not the bodies of Kasmiri Pandits who where killed by Pakistani militants .We all know the destitute and Poignant stories of the Exodus of Kashmiri Pandits and Indian Kashmiri Muslims from the valley due to militant attacks from Pakistan. Even if the bodies were exhumed, how do you know who killed them, it could have certainly been militants?There have been some excesses in Kashmir and the guilty should/have been be brought to justice unlike the BANGADESHI GENOCIDE which still awaits a war crime trial..what a shame!!Your Source : MARKTHETRUTH.COM : Nobody has heard about this source,thusfar, we do not accept assertions you create from here .Babri Masjid: Due to one fanatic, who built a mosque for conflict than to pray in ,the birth place of Lord RAM ,people like you get lot of ammo. It was wrong to build a mosque in a Hindu holy site and vice versa. Solution is to build a new mosque by moving this monument from its present site to a new place and with today’s technology, its possible.I don’t know from you popped up the Omar Abdullah sex scandal, if it were to be true I can tell you people of Kashmir would not have elected him as CM in a free and fair election even applauded by the UN. Hypocrisy, Bigotry from the Pakistan to Question INDIA’s Secularism#######################################################Now let me ask you for a change:You and may others from Pakistan always try to question our secular values,cite Gujarat and the usual platitudinal sermons,I want to ask you(you as in the Pakistani state) : WHAT GIVES YOU THE RIGHT TO BE THE MORAL COMPASS TO QUESTION US, when you have marginalized your minorities Balochs,Bengali Muslims ,Baloch Muslims,Hindus,Sikhs, created a monolithic Islamic state, desecrated Hindu and Sikh temples Pakistan, killed Bengali Muslims in the genocide. If it was an Islamic republic, how did it let inflict such suffering to Muslims. Truth is ,its establishment Army,ISI is ethnic Punjabi,Sindi Muslim and it wants to dominate other ethinic sections be it balochs,tribal pashtuns let alone Hindus.No hard feelings against the ordinary Pakistani common man, tell me can a Hindu become the Prime minister of Pakistan? A Muslim has become India’s president, A Sikh is India’s prime minister and tomorrow a Muslim can take the top seat. At least, In India despite religions skirmishes, has tried and succeeded in building a secular society. In a country of a billion people with varied religions and 14 official languages, not everyone will believe in egalitarianism but majority do and that’s how India has evolved in the last 60 years.ARGUMENT 1: Pakistan realizes and repairs itselfAssuming Pakistan becomes receptive and understands that a state based on religion is acting as a pretext for bad governance ,indirect control of the army than true democracy and people decide on the competence of the ruler to provide for its people than his religion, then the reason for Partition is obsolete and it has to merge with India as Governance is not based on religion in India and a political party with a religion’s name cannot exist in India and register itself with election commission. Such a system enables the least, people to think on development and exercise their suffrage.ARGUMENT 2 : Pakistan thinks Muslims are discriminated in India , wishes to be a the custodian of Muslims in South AsiaIf this argument is true, then Bengali genocide would not have happened where innocent Muslims died,Balochs would have got funds for development than the money being swindled .Part of Kashmir occupied by Pakistan will not be infested with terror camps.In either of the Argument I have delineated how the existence of this State is Illegitimate and there is nothing to smirk when I say ‘this landmass’ should be a ‘Province of India’. CLAIM ON KASHMIR: Tell me if there is any other reason to claim Kashmir except religion? If it is religion as I have already said Hindu sacred texts mention Kashmir as one the holy places where Hindu gods reside in the himalayan mountains.Indian ancient history and culture revolves around Kashmir I know verses in Sanskrit that mention them a Kashmiri Muslim's culture has some distinct Hindu flavor as many were proselytized from Hinduism as Islam entered India. Even if you are ethic Pakistani, it’s a high possibility your ancestors before 10 generation might have been Hindu. So its perfectly valid if we CLAIM PAKISTAN.India’s take’s pride in the contribution of true Muslims and Hindus, Sikhs who are tolerant or simply said Indians, to its society and Culture. From Gulzar in lyrics to Ustad Amjad ali khan who is the veteran sitarist to one of India’s most prized Muslims :Abdul Kalam have worked for this country like other prominent citizens.INSHALLAH : I hope India’s culture, traditions, mannerism, friendliness, humility and the profound humanity, this fascinating country encapsulates is understood .Discover the India in you, because being born in India is not the only reason to fall for this land,as the aroha of India belongs to the world. Tue 09 Mar 2010 10:04:45 GMT+1 Shahrukh_Khan @eternalindiaTotal hogwash! Let me prove you wrong from the very onset. My name IS Shahrukh Khan Mohmand. Your imagination seems to be as narrow as ur knowledge!BTW, If you have any knowledge of YOUR superstar, Shahrukh, he PROUDLY announced TO ALL that his family IS basically from Pakistan(OOPSIE!); And you claim the hindus love him?? Ah, actions speak so much louder than hollow words! What did you do to this superstar of yours? You gave him the shock of his life when his most important piece of work was BANNED in MUMBAI, where he lives and works!! Your proud Shiv Sena (ARMY OF SHIV, wow!) goes on a rampage attacking malls and multiplexes showing his name. And then announcing that no film of Khan would be screened in the district. Later it turns into 'no Khan film to be screened in all of Maharashtra!' Haah, so much for SECULAR!Like i said earlier, you take a lot of pain and use far too many words when trying to state only the obvious: yes, we all know what an average indian who is endlessly fed with anti-Pakistan, hate-based nonsense by their media and govt would be having in their minds! No one in their right mind would expect anything else: its just not your fault! You have always been told fairytales with the moral 'They are bad, we are good!' (Rather, 'they were good as long they were a part of us, NOW they are bad!)Muslims living happily in India? Now this surely takes the cake! (Forget bengal of 71, welcome of INDIA of 2002!)I am sure we all know what happened in Gujerat! As per the 'reputed' Wikipedia alone, 'the violence killed 794 Muslims and an additional 254 Hindus. 223 people were reported missing and 2,548 sustained injuries. 523 places of worship were damaged: 298 dargahs, 205 mosques, 17 temples, and 3 churches (churches?). Muslim-owned businesses suffered the bulk of the damage. 61,000 Muslims fled their homes!'. I can understand why you like Wikipedia, because what follows is from the Guardian of 1st March, 2007 (Mike Marqusee): No, Mr EI, the Guardian is NOT a Pakistani newspaper! 'Five years ago this week, across the Indian state ofGujarat, the stormtroopers of the Hindu right, deckedin saffron sashes and armed with swords, tridents,sledgehammers and liquid gas cylinders, launched apogrom against the local Muslim population. Theylooted and torched Muslim-owned businesses, assaultedand murdered Muslims, and gang-raped and mutilatedMuslim women. By the time the violence spluttered to ahalt, about 2,500 Muslims had been killed and about200,000 driven from their homes.'Which brings to mind another 'isolated' incident: Babri Mosque, 1992! says, 'A mob (150,000) of Hindu militants has torn down a Mosque and attacked other Muslim targets in the north Indian town of Ayodhya, in one of India's worst outbreaks of inter-communal violence. The gathering at the mosque began as a religious procession organised by three right-wing Hindu groups, including the main opposition Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP).' Importantly, the rally organizers had given their word to the Indian Supreme Court' that they wont harm the Mosque!' SO MUCH FOR RULE OF LAW!I am sure all this must have created very strong 'secular' and 'patriotic' feelings amongst the Muslim minority community, who, (sorry to give it bluntly to you), do not have bad memories! Let me give you an easy way out, go ahead and blame it all on Pakistan!! How does it matter anyway!?Kashmir now?'Recently, the International People’s Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice disclosed that 2,700 unmarked graves with nearly 3,000 bodies across 55 villages in three districts, Bandipore, Baramullah and Kupwara of Indian Held Kashmir (IHK) have been discovered. Some of the mass graves contain 3 to 17 bodies. The Tribunal claimed that the graves could be of those missing from custody of Indian troops. The report is based on research between November 2006 and November 2009 and has been authored by prominent human rights activists of India and occupied Kashmir. Last year too, the group had found 1,000 unmarked graves in the Kashmir valley. Dr. Angana Chatterjee of the Tribunal said, “The graves might be containing the bodies of the 8,000 people who disappeared during 20 years of the armed conflict”. The history of atrocities in Indian held Kashmir is as old as the dispute itself. Similarly, the High Court Bar Association of Occupied Kashmir maintained that more than 100,000 Kashmiris had been killed by Indian troops in the last two decades, while 10,000 persons were disappeared in custody. Similarly, it said that more than 300,000 Kashmiri’s were tortured in jails and interrogation centers.Ironically, human rights are violated on large scale in the so-called world’s largest democracy.'Same source (though many put the numbers higher!)'Currently, 700,000 Indian army troops are deployed in occupied Kashmir to crush the Kashmiri freedom movement. The Indian occupational forces have killed more than 91,168 innocent Kashmiris, 38,450 rendered disable or crippled for life and 30,000 women have been raped and molested. More than 105,238 hoses and shops have been destroyed and 106,755 have become orphaned in Jammu and Kashmir, since 1989. According to the Association of Parents of Disappeared Persons 8,000 to 10,000 Kashmiris disappeared mysteriously in Indian Held Kashmir from 1989-2008 while the Asian Centre for Human Rights put the figure at six thousand. Up till July 2006 number of innocent Kashmiris in Indian custody accounted to 3,735.'Hate too many figures? Heres the simple Reality Check: go to Kashmir (if you dare) and ask the first 100 EDUCATED people you meet about their 'LOVE' for India. BTW, i am sure that since you claim to know so much, you already KNOW the answer to this one!And then there is the infamous Kashmir Sex Scandal, a black spot for India in kashmir, thats so embarassing for india that the indian govt has not leaked its details to any form of media till date! 2006, the CBI, the country’s federal police probing the sex scandal, arrested two former state ministers and lawmakers! Reportedly, girls, some of them minors, were said to have been supplied to a number of politicians, bureaucrats and top brass of the state police as 'incentive' to rule this unfortunate piece of land! (the proud army jawans only get to have 'forced' sex with the kashmiri women, (latest confirmed incident happened a few weeks ago, go check!!))Change of taste now :Reality Check #2 : Guess what %age of Muslims serve in indian army: WRONG AGAIN!, its 3%!! (check)Like i said earlier, dont worry too much about Pakistan; it is here to stay INSHALLAH, INSHALLAH! Your likes are more than welcome to continue day-dreaming about its disintegration/destruction (btw which split-up model? 71's or 47's!?) Let your govt continue with its mischief in baluchistan and FATA. Pak Forces are doing much better over there (a globally acknowledged fact) than what the Allied forces (US & others) are in Afghanistan! Its about time the indian govt reap what they sew! And heres a piece of advice of my own to your govt: dont get too carried away with the American pat-on-the-back; there are visible signs they are already re-thinking their strategy in the region. BTW, your economy is currently not doing badly; Pak had a remarkable growth rate in early to mid 2000s, which then declined. But we'll catch up soon enough, dont you worry about it! Finally, here's my favourite piece from your comments..'Harappan Hindu civilization demonstrates Hindusim has ethnic roots in Pakistan and so India should claim Pakistan the landmass and derecognise it as a country and label it as a 'province of India'.I actually laughed out loudly at this one! Hillarious!! (BTW, who is stopping you from taking out the 'trishul' and start marching eastwards?)Anyway, to all, i announce here that i will no longer be visiting this blog. We cannot convince each other in a thousand years. Till then, let the common man raise his slogans. Enough time wasted already! Mon 08 Mar 2010 21:17:33 GMT+1 U14366952 @ Shahrukh_Khan: First ,If you are green eyed Pakistani,then don't try to use a Bollywood star's name if you share the same ill will for India like many of your countrymen. Because Sharukh Khan,the actor is and a proud Indian Muslim with secular ethos.Bengali Holocaust#################I did not give spurious facts when I talked about "Bengali Holocaust".The so called 'UNBIASED' source is Wikipedia which is well moderated and i want to share the link here.Bangladesh Liberation War######################### Searchlight:Manslaughter by Pakistani Army : 3 million killed####################################################################### read the quotes mentioned in the link : "Bengali Civilian casualtiesThe killings which began on March 25, 1971 and sparked the Bangladesh Liberation War led to the deaths of at least 26,000 people, as admitted by Pakistan (by the Hamoodur Rahman Commission)[155] and as many as 3,000,000 as claimed by Bangladesh (from 1972 to 1975 the first post-war prime minister of Bangladesh, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, mentioned on several occasions that at least three million died).[156][157][158] Biharis and Non Bengalis had also suffered in the initial stages of the conflict - houses were looted and some at died in Bengali hands.The genocide also included killing of serving Bengali senior army officers of the rank of Lt. Colonel and above in East Pakistan within the first few days of ‘Operation Searchlight’. The martyrs included Col. Badiul Alam, Lt. Col. MA Qadir, Lt. Col. SA Hai, Lt. Col. MR Choudhury, Lt. Col. (Dr.) Ziaur Rahman, Lt. Col. NA M. Jahangir and another dozens of senior majors who were cold-bloodedly executed by April 1971. Also, around a hundred junior officers and thousands of unfortunate captured Bengali soldiers, including members of the East Pakistan Rifles and Police, serving in East Pakistan were slaughtered. After the defeat of the Pakistan Army, there was a call to try nearly 200 Pakistani POWs for war crimes, but no trials took place."Baloch Unrest############# read and get illuminated by the lines : " The Pakistani intelligence agencies claimed these arms were en route to the Baloch (Marri) insurgents of Balochistan. Citing treason, Bhutto was looking for such reasons for a time, subsequently he dismissed the provincial government of Balochistan and imposed governor rule. [8]Dismissal of the provincial government led to armed insurgency. Khair Bakhsh Marri formed the Balochistan People’s Liberation Front (BPLF) which led large numbers of Marri and Mengal tribesmen into guerrilla warfare against the central government.[9] According to some authors, the Pakistani military lost 300 to 400 soldiers during the conflict with the Balochi separatists& baloch lost about 90,000 lives & 12,000 are still missing,[10] while the Balouch lost 7,300 separatists"Now my comments are majority directed at the Pakistani Army and the notorious ISI which is an enemy to its own people. I am sure a senible educated Pakistani understands that a Monolithic society as Pakistan is today ,gives its regime to be corrupt and foment hate against its neighbor India purely on religious basis,they sure reckon that breaking away 'INSHAALLAH' in your parlance,was a fiasco.I am sure ALLAH would loathe the terror emanating from Pakistan.PAKISTAN IS NOT THE CUSTODIAN OF ISLAM IN THE WORLD.Indian Muslims are more devout, they believe in a Unified India and understand that insular politics of Pakistan is self-destructive.There are no Indians in Al Qaeda and despite occasional religious skirmishes, India imposes secular values on its citizens.Not only has your country's insidious Army perpetrated human crimes in Indian Kashmir by training militants and attacking innocent Kashmiri Pandits(Hindus) and Kashmiri Indian Muslims,but also discriminated against your own people by not allocating funds in yearly budgets for Balochistan and break away East Pakistan.Your country had imposed Urdu as the only official language in East Pakistan contemptuously ignoring the feelings of the Bengali section.Did not the Bengali Genocide in East Pakistan happen with the acquiescence of the Pakistani Army.Did not fanatics like Aurangazeb impose jaziya on Hindus?Did he not forcefully build mosques in Hindu holy sites to sow the seeds of conflict?.Is not Jinnah the epitomy of greed for power by going to the extent of Dividing India and insisting on partition with religion as basis .If Religion was the basis for partition or to claim Kashmir my hideous friend, let me tell you that Hindu sacred texts mention Kashmir as one the holy places where Hindu gods reside in the himalayan mountains.Indian ancient history and culture revolves around Kashmir I know verses in Sanskrit that mention them.It is known that a Kashmiri Muslim's culture has some distinct Hindu flavor as many were proselytized from Hinduism as Islam entered India.We know, that an Indian Muslim is far better off in India than Muslims in your country and he is as patriotic to India like any other Hindu or Sikh And last ,but a pivotal point,Harappan Hindu civilization demonstrates Hindusim has ethnic roots in Pakistan and so India should claim Pakistan the landmass and derecognise it as a country and label it as a 'province of India'.I REPEAT NOW :The 'Idea of India' is unity despite diversity of religion and culture and the solemn commitment to the secular values we cherish, a society where parochial tendencies are loathed.As India poises before its role in the brighter side of history,the idea of Unified India as the utopian paradise for humanity seems ever more palpable Mon 08 Mar 2010 09:51:12 GMT+1 Shahrukh_Khan @indianblogger8151. 'Last time I checked, it was because of dispute over which regional leader would take the PM position led to the splitting of Pakistan.' It played a part too, and the rest was Indian intervention, which Indira Gandhi admitted to, and even said 'India has sank the two-nation theory in the ocean!". (Oops lady, shouldnt you have said "Pakistan" instead?) Anyway, so thats your reason for Pakistan's split up. And in case of 'united' India, ITS partition was a result of british conspiracy, right!?2. Alright, so Col Prohit utilized Pakistanis to carry out his plan? Good! Which means what an Indian Col planned behind closed doors and executed successfully was one of "the isolated incidents here and there in India", but what 'ONE OF' the many perpetrators of mumbai attacks did, speaks of Pakistanis in general! (Dont worry, btw: we have our own list of what India has been upto in pakistan too: one may refer to my previous posts to find a mention of JUST A FEW OF them. More can be provided readily if not known).3. Indians should also start LeT,JeM type organizations; claim they are "non state actors"; shell Sindh border and pump them in; make noise abt "legitimate aspirations of Balochi people"; make statements like "India is committed to wage a 1000 yr ideological war with Pakistan over Balochistan" Unfortunately, it seems the Indian Govt already beat you (and many other such 'thinkers') to it with its ACTIONS!4. When carrots dont work, India so far has been giving bigger carrots. May be time to use the stick ? Wow! Finally spoken like a true Indian. Let me assure you, then: This is EXACTLY the same way most Pakistanis think about India. They have had enough, they say! SO you are more than welcome if you want the game of sticks!@EternalIndia 'From the Baloch unrest to the holocaust of Bengali citizens in the bereaved East Pakistan, the break away state has shown no respect for its people.'Easy now! The 'breakaway state' has a name: its PAKISTAN! My country!! Dont let your 'hate' carry you away! Oh wow, holocaust!? By the same token, what most UNBIASED international watchers tell the world about Indian attrocities in Indian Held Kashmir should earn it the title of Super Holocaust then! And, sorry to burst your bubble, but despite your hogwash about azad kashmir & baluchistan, let me simply say that pakistan it is here to stay INSHALLAH! Dont worry too much about baluchistan, or azad kashmir, they are not going anywhere no matter how hard our enemies try! (Pakistan was broken in 71, India in 47: Big deal!) And to further disappoint you, the situation in pakistan is getting better every day as we are now getting to the REAL masterminds behind the recent attacks! And for them, payback time is not far off!And most of the stuff (based on hatred for pakistan) you've written, the claim to know Pakistan's past, present AND FUTURE.. is as old and copied as it is baseless. 14th August, 1947 is a reality which someone's hatred canNOT undo!! Sun 07 Mar 2010 20:22:52 GMT+1 U14366952 As a citizen of India,does it not obligate us to be opinionative of the governance,politics,socio-economic issues that this country tackles or tries to circumvent.Today I wanted to share some thoughts on one of the most controversial topics debated in India : The rationale for 'Partition of India' and the 'Kashmir Conflict'.Part 1Partition of India : A Galactic Mistake in the annals of HistoryThe Premise:The reasons for dividing India was just one,a country for the muslims of the subcontinent was necessary for equality and justice when India becomes free. The British wanted two nations as publicly evinced ,that they will save some religions disturbance and rioting if separate nations were created.As if they would really care, partition did create one of the worst religious riots ever seen and I am sure not one British soldier or General wanted to control the situation.I believe there was a more sinister reason for insisting on partition.The British wanted to deface the image of the egalitarian non violent freedom movement in India.They plotted to delay independence of the crown jewel of the empire by tying up the issue with partition .It would have certainly concurred at the helm of the colonial administration that the topic would generate enough imbroglio to dally the issue.I believe the whole premise behind partition , that a land for one religious cult is flawed.Let's assume that one cult rationale to be valid,the diversity of India will no longer the reason to bring home the bacon.Is there a single plaudit that the break away nation has earned in the last sixty years?The Present:Satire can be vivdly drawn from the fact that it has created a professional satanic intelligence service,army that hold the state to ransom and has a facade of democracy as veil .It has managed to be labeled as the 'international migraine'.It has succeeded in fermenting hate and laments against India and mastered the art of counterfeit Indian currency.Above all it seems to flaunt the identity of being a global hub of terror.It blackmails stakeholders in return for cooperation in terror fight against aid, has exacerbated the Afghan conflict by poking a noxious anti-India strategic angle to the problem.The Future:From the Baloch unrest to the holocaust of Bengali citizens in the bereaved East Pakistan, the break away state has shown no respect for its people.The Pakistani ambassador to Bangladesh said "Let Bygones be Bygones" wanting to bury the Bengali holocaust in 1971 war chronicles.Such a blemished history with cycles of coups and political upheavals sets stage for the break up.A monumental time when Balochistan gains independence from a state that discriminates on resources and rights to governance.A time when the so called 'Azad Kashmir' realizes that 'azad' is a misnomer for a future of a career in terror camps than one with opportunity and hope in the Indian Union.The 'Idea of India' is unity despite diversity of religion and culture and the solemn commitment to the secular values we cherish, a society where parochial tendencies are loathed.As India poises before its role in the brighter side of history,the idea of Unified India as the utopian paradise for humanity seems ever more palpable. Thu 04 Mar 2010 03:18:04 GMT+1 indiablogger815 "Just checking then, maybe?"Yes I am. Last time I checked, it was because of dispute over which regional leader would take the PM position led to the splitting of Pakistan. "have definitely had a HIGHER RATIO of top seats (Presisent, PM, Army/PAF Chief) in Pakistan than Muslims have had in India since 47!"While there is certain truth to your statement, the "lower ratio" has not led to splitting up of India."Especially the insight about Col Prohit (mastermind of Samjhota Massacre even as per many INDIAN sources.."Col Purohit is an INDIVIDUAL. Just because he is a hindu, does it mean he runs a LeT type organization in India, fully funded by Indian govt & "charity" from people ? If you hadn't noticed, it was the Mumbai ATS, an Indian govt organization which arrested him. He may or may not have masterminded it, but even by Rahman Malik's own admission, it was Pakistanis who carried out the attack. : "Malik alleged that Purohit had hired *Pakistani extremists* to carry out the bombing."Sometimes, it just makes me think that it is IMPOSSIBLE to gain any good will of the Pakistanis. Anyways Pakistanis are going to think that what they do is EQUAL to isolated incidents here and there in India. So why should we be nice ? Indians should also start LeT,JeM type organizations; claim they are "non state actors"; shell Sindh border and pump them in; make noise abt "legitimate aspirations of Balochi people"; make statements like "India is committed to wage a 1000 yr ideological war with Pakistan over Balochistan"; start paying back for all terrorist attacks like 26/11, parliament attack, Mumbai bomb blasts, Akshardham temple attack etc. When carrots dont work, India so far has been giving bigger carrots. May be time to use the stick ? Tue 02 Mar 2010 03:38:05 GMT+1 Shahrukh_Khan @indianblogger815: "I'm not an expert on Pak, may I pls know how many non-Punjabis have held the top positions - president,PM,Army chief,ISI chief since '47 ?" Punjab (not my province) is the largest province of Pakistan & has only had its fair share of top appointments. And the other categories of people you mentioned (though much less in number (even %age wise) than Muslims in India) have definitely had a HIGHER RATIO of top seats (Presisent, PM, Army/PAF Chief) in Pakistan than Muslims have had in India since 47! But good, you said yourself that you are no expert on Pak. (Just checking then, maybe?) :)Ocelot_X1 : Important comments, very informative. Especially the insight about Col Prohit (mastermind of Samjhota Massacre even as per many INDIAN sources, some of which you quoted as well). But for me the question is "Is it possible to convince someone who doesnt WANT to get convinced (because their media & govts have brainwashed them to the point of no-return)?" Sun 28 Feb 2010 18:52:34 GMT+1 indiablogger815 @Ocelot_X1:Kashmir issue, I have already addressed that. Read my all other posts."How do you justify your takeover of Hyderabad?"How do you justify Nizam's original takeover of Hyderabad ? How do you justify Pakistan's takeover of Balochistan ? Looking into past solved problems aint going to solve any present problem.As for the Indian general whatever, if you have evidence, you are welcome to present it to India & the Indian media. We have an open media which encourages free discussion, evidenced by the fact that you gave Indian sources."Like I said, we Pakistanis are threatened by your comments and attitude."I dont recollect threatening the people of Pakistan. If you make assumptions like these & live in fear, its not our fault. Like I said before, "looking for imaginary ghosts in the dark". We cannot make much progress with people like you. "Yea after conducting nuclear tests in 1999 Vajpayee said, "We will annihilate them". "Really, can you pls point me to your source ? Vajpayee also implemented the "no first use" policy. Can Pakistan do that ?"We have always been at par with you when it comes to..."Why do you have to explain this to me ? It doesn't matter to me. As far as I'm concerned, we're not looking forward to integrate Pakistan back into India. I gave my reasons."You are same sort of ignorant person."Thanks for calling names. I didnt do that you. Sat 27 Feb 2010 00:50:08 GMT+1 Ocelot_X1 @ indiablogger815I don't have the a lot of time and the motivation really to talk on every single issue...Therefore I will just address your main rebuttalsa) Kashmir IssueCheck out any poll from 1947- early 1900s and it would tell you what Kashmir's want. I didn't want to mention the fact that Pakistan also fights for Kashmiri interests because I knew someone from the other side is going to make some sort of accusation. So many Kashmiris live in Pakistani cities. It's really irresponsible of you to say that we don't fight for kashmiri interests. I brought the point of strategic interest because that's the same reason why India took over the princely state of Hyderabad. How do you justify your takeover of Hyderabad? The Naziam of Hyderabad wanted an independent state or wanted to join Pakistan (THIS A FACT). "I would not support any move which attempts to starve the Pakistanis. I'm sure an overwhelming majority in India will express the same view."Please give me a break. I'm from Lahore. I have seen Ravi,Chenab and Sutluj literally dried up because of your dams. I'm only 23 years old, and I have seen how India has played with our sovereignty with my very eyes."PEOPLE of Pakistan were/are never the enemy of India."After listening to your media, your politicians and people such as yourself this is clearly not the case. Like I said, we Pakistanis are threatened by your comments and attitude. " : On July 1, 2009 the United States Treasury and UNSC put sanctions on Pakistan-based terrorist organization, Lashkar-e-Tayyiba, and named Arif Qasmani and three other terrorists as conspirators of the Samjauta blasts."Please don't give any American sources. These were the people who attacked Iraq because they had "Weapons of mass destruction including Nuclear weapons". The American government and think tanks have been so wrong about so many things for so long that I don't trust them. However, I do trust the Indian army colonel who admitted of being involved in the event. There is no evidence Let being involved in that event and furthermore LeT has no strategic interest in committing such an act as most of the people who dies were Pakistanis. I am sure that the Indian government doesn't even think that LeT carried out those attacks. Here are some of the news stories which I was following till 2008: you can see most of these are Indian sources. The reason why no one is convicted for this terrorist act is because it was committed by Indians and more importantly radical elements of the Indian army was involved in the event. "Indians are not convinced. We still LeT not being completely dismantled."I don't think Indians will every be convinced that our government, army of intelligence we not involved. I can live with that. I mean Indians have been blaming every single thing on Pakistan (either ISI or LeT). Your post # 65 and 77 clearly show what kind of person you are. "Science-hating, progress-hating, modernization-hating, close-minded religious nut jobs"...Yea after conducting nuclear tests in 1999 Vajpayee said, "We will annihilate them". You are same sort of ignorant person. We Pakistani don't have to convince you of anything...Right up till 2004 our economy was growing at the same pace as yours...We have always been at par with you when it comes to sports....A Pakistani (not a Pakistani diaspora person) was the first one from the subcontinent to win a noble prize in Physics. It's pretty good considering the fact that we are about 1/3rd the size of India in terms of land and resources and unlike India we don't get a lot of economic and diplomatic backing from countries like Russia, U.S and Britain....This is why I said, "I don't understand why Indians are not so modest and humble". I'm not going to play any blame games and not argue with you any further, it pretty clear to me that you are very ignorant... For you all India can not do anything wrong, for you all Indians are angels and all Pakistanis are devils...It's because of people like that there would be no peace on earth! Fri 26 Feb 2010 22:27:18 GMT+1 indiablogger815 @SRK,I'm glad that you are a happy proud Pakthun remaining with Punjab dominated Pakistan. I'm not an expert on Pak, may I pls know how many non-Punjabis have held the top positions - president,PM,Army chief,ISI chief since '47 ?"FALSE, self-proclaimed Pakistani Taliban"I remember a pre-independence era muslim intellectual opposed to the creation of Pakistan said something like this - "If they call it 'land of the pure', who is to determine who is pure and who is not ?". This was the very reason why Bengalis, Shias, Ahmediyas, Balochis & now Pak Taliban became "less pure" muslims. Its a democratic quality to handle dissent & agree to disagree, but it seems to me that Pakistan has no such capability. Violent suppression of dissent will not go very far you know."if we, the educated and informed people from both sides are so full of anger, and most of us so much that we dont even want to talk to the other side on any terms whatsoever"Sir, you have misunderstood me. I am never opposed to friendship between the *people* of India & Pakistan. In fact many Pakistani artists come to perform in India; many patients come for health care. All that is very good. My complaints are purely against the Pakistani establishment. India has talked with Pakistan for a long time, but it hasn't reduced the terrorism. The problem is, Indian govt uses these talks as an excuse not to act on real problems and our safety is not guaranteed."Which is victory for....?? "Who else ? India will buy more weapons from Russia. Indian politicians will get kickbacks and amass their wealth in Swiss bank. Pakistan will do the same. The common man will keep looking at the sky and hope for good rains. Fri 26 Feb 2010 19:45:39 GMT+1 indiablogger815 @Ocelot_X1 "There is no proof that the Pakistani government, military or intelligence were involved in the incident nor did Pakistan have any interest in committing such an act"Indians are not convinced. We still LeT not being completely dismantled."Have the Indians forgotten about Samjhota express train bombing?" : On July 1, 2009 the United States Treasury and UNSC put sanctions on Pakistan-based terrorist organization, Lashkar-e-Tayyiba, and named Arif Qasmani and three other terrorists as conspirators of the Samjauta blasts."Kashmir is a strategic province for Pakistan. "Thanks for finally accepting this. This proves two points: #1 Pakistan has no God given "divine ownership" over the territory of Kashmir.#2 Pakistan's cries for Kashmir is solely motivated by self interests. All that "legitimate aspirations for Kashmiri people for their self determination, human rights violation blablabla" talk is just BS."Pakistani people cannot accept India controlling our sovereignty and bullying us by controlling our waters"I accept that Water is a genuine concern for Pakistan. I would not support any move which attempts to starve the Pakistanis. I'm sure an overwhelming majority in India will express the same view. PEOPLE of Pakistan were/are never the enemy of India. Kashmir is equally strategic for India. Giving up any piece of land will set a dangerous precedent, which other states will attempt to follow. Lives of 1.2 BILLION are at stake. India will fight to death to defend her territory. How can war & terrorism be the solution ? What we need to do is find common ground, build trust and address the issues on a humanitarian level. As Dr. MMS said, borders cannot be changed, but they can be made irrelevant. India aspires to be a major economic power in the coming decades. Hostility with Pakistan is not what we want. So, fear that India will somehow use the water-issue to destroy Pakistan is groundless. Pakistan always sees imaginary ghosts in the dark. This is not the first time. Wasn't Pakistan the very country wanting to split when India was under the leadership of one of the greatest leaders the world has ever seen - Mahatma Gandhi ?"No Pakistani person today denies that however we believe that things got worse after the Indian involvement."Thats your "belief". Facts speak otherwise. I agree with you that no country should interfere in others' internal affairs. But Bangladesh was a humanitarian crisis. Are you unhappy that you only have 3 million blood instead of 13 Million blood in your hands ? Its is moral responsibility for India to intervene. Didn't Pakistan intervene in Afghanistan by training the Mujahideen ? Why does Pakistan support the Palestinian cause ? Besides, India wasn't directly involved, unlike the Americans in Iraq. India was only supporting the Mukthi Bahini. Pakistan may not have lost the territory if it had not attacked India. Pakistan DECLARED WAR ON INDIA, India just responded. India had not directly gained anything by the creation of Bangladesh. If it had been US, then they would have established a permanent military base; used the CIA to meddle in internal affairs; manipulate the govt to secure contracts for American corporates etc. India did nothing of that sort. In fact the very territory freed by India was used against us for a long time. Only recently have Bangladeshis shown any gratitude for what we have done. And good luck to Pakistan in getting back your land leased to American bases. Letting the white man to set up a base in your country - haven't you guys learned anything in the past 400 years ?"it seems to me and other Pakistani's that Indians still haven't accepted the fact that Pakistan is a sovereign state. "Ref #65,#77. Fri 26 Feb 2010 19:16:59 GMT+1 vivek see, its all sounding like a might game at the end, i agree that both the parties shud be held responsible for the current situation, and many people (innocent n responsible) have died from both the countries in the past many decades, i know for every logical/illogical action the repercussions wud be many, am not going to accuse one or paint demi-god the other, just that, i want peace, i have read so much in the past few days, and everything terrifies me to a good extent, most of us are sitting comfortably in our rooms n writing all this, this is so ineffectual, the ppl who r suffering in real are someone n somewhere else...for god sake this hatred has to stop, i just wish that keeping history behind (history never helps solve any matter) we need a solution...this just has to stop, somehow it has to lets stop this Fri 26 Feb 2010 16:12:15 GMT+1 Shahrukh_Khan @ 99 (Ocelot-X1): The most realistic and balanced remarks so far on this blog! Congrats.@ 98 (indianblogger815) : Pal, i am a pakhtoon (or pashtoon or pathan as some people call us) and i guess i am as patriotic as they come! :) And like many Pakhtoon families, ours has bright men, (two of my cousins), serving the nation in uniform (one in khaki and one in blue). Let me clearly deny what you said about Pakhtoons and ISI there (wonder why on earth are some Indians so obsessed about the ISI!); Anyways, the world knows that we pakhtoons love our country, Pakistan, very much. I am sure you wont like it when i tell you that there are many who say the same kind of things about Sikhs in India! We Pakhtoons are proud of the way the way our army is fighting the FALSE, self-proclaimed Pakistani Taliban and is DEFEATING them in one area after the other, and laying down precious lives for the country! (By the way, the actual Taliban, the Afghan Taliban, (which you rightly said, and sadly many even in Pakistan dont know!), are basically just pro-Islamic and anti US-oppression, no love/hate for Pakistan or India). Anyways, comments on this blog convince me further; if we, the educated and informed people from both sides are so full of anger, and most of us so much that we dont even want to talk to the other side on any terms whatsoever, it is hard to imagine the hatred an ordinary, not-so-well-informed person would be harbouring in himself, the man who is bombarded with hate-journalism and negative propoganda day in and day out. And tragically then, there is even a higher level; the people who have suffered a permanent loss (like a dear one, or one of their limbs for example), in one of the terrorist attacks (including the many blasts that took place in the 90s in both pakistan as well as india, the samjhota express massacre, attack of 26/11, brutalities in kashmir.. and so on). Further evidence of the same came today as i read comments by Pakistanis regarding pak-india talks in Dehli, they seemed pretty disappointed with the way the talks went. I wonder then, have we gone too far? Has the point of no-return been crossed? Its bad enough already what has happened, but for people on both saide to say "theres no point to even talk to this country" shows even the will/wish to talk is dying. Which is victory for....?? (i am really thinking about it here. Please give it a thought before you answer this).P.S. Have seen Sachin's innings with my friends TWICE already! Nothing succeeds like success they say! Shabbaash! Thu 25 Feb 2010 19:57:05 GMT+1 Arvind N Finally the talks are over.I was amazed the way Pakistan foreign secretary Bashir addressed media and it vindicated position taken by majority of responses here on this blog that 'the talks won't be productive'. Though there will be more reactions and counter reactions, one thing surprised me that was Indian foreign secretary talking to the worthy counterpart who have least knowledge and respect for international diplomacy standards. Bashir, in his post talks press conference was hell bent to prove what rouge nation he represents.When Indian Foreign Secretary Rao was gracious and very diplomatic, her counterpart was just average man. He should have answered questions from journos in a mild fashion. But the body language and use of words suggested that he is representing groups like Al Quaida or Lashkar-e-Toeba and not a sovereign state of Pakistan.I have some thoughts for the august readers here. In the beginning Bashir's responses and body language suggested that he went to India with a mission of not succeeding the talks. He repeatedly tried to bring Kashmir issue on fore when it is clear that there is nothing to talk on that at his level. Instead of answering on Pakistan's participation in 26/11 attacks in Mumbai, he made false claims. I really wonder what type of dispensation is ruling (?) Pakistan? Foreign Secretary level officer can be so dope? Unbelievable... Despite public opinion against the talks, Indian Government went ahead with the talks which ended into fiasco. Hope Govt of India at least takes cue from here to deal with Pakistan.May the thousands of souls of dead in Pakistan-Sponsored terrorism in India forgive UPA Government. Thu 25 Feb 2010 17:32:38 GMT+1 babur Pakistan wants peace with India.. But its clear that india is not ready ot move on.... Thu 25 Feb 2010 12:39:04 GMT+1 KARNAL It is really tough for people to digest facts. moderator have shown his/her attitude bye removing my comment on baseless ground. if this is the attitude of a BBC than I can understand as well as conclude that,peace in South Asia is something unwanted thing bye rest of the world include BBC.I hope that as Indian and Hindu we will try our best to maintain peace. Thu 25 Feb 2010 11:49:50 GMT+1 Dhruv @gutsybexhonestly, as most of the people on both sides think... these talks will eventually fail and result in either another bus/air trip or a war/conflict...Pakistan provides a great platform for terrorism... the only thing that puzzles me... what the heck will they do with Kashmir!??+ you need to check your facts mate... legally, on the paperwork, Kashmir belongs to India(thanks to the hindu king). Majority of the population is muslim, but that doesn't mean it has to go to Pakistan... WHERE THE HECK DOES PAKISTAN EVEN COME IN THE PICTURE!?? India has a massive muslim population...The greatest organization, "UN" will state every piece of land or territory as disputed(between more than 2 countries)... what's the point?the point my friend is... you can't rely on UN when you come to solve an issue which invovles 2 countries with one of the highest population/s on this planet. For one simple reason... every issue @ UN will eventually come to the big 5 veto's.Resolution:A lot of things are said and observed around the world... Pakistan is really at the edge. US knows the whole story but would simply not declare her a terrorist state... simply b'cause it gets bases there. If Pakistani politicians don't get their stuff right... possibility is that this country can get balkanised(similar to Yugoslavia)... they have far more complex internal issues then India.> constant fight for water between Pakistani Punjab & another state.> No land reforms! >>> poloticians literally own massive chunks of land!Yet, the claim to be a muslim democracy... their not democratic at the first place... being a muslim one is even harder!!! Thu 25 Feb 2010 10:16:24 GMT+1 babur There are many misunderstanding from both the sides, best way is to discuss them..Instead of just blaming each other... Pakistani media and its citizen are positive towards india but indians are negative towards us...Why india has forgotten 2006 mumbai bombing in such its people were involved??? Why did indian navy allowed "so called" pakistani terrorist to enter india??? Every time pakistani fishermen crosses into indian side they are always arrested then why were these terrorist allowed to go into india???? Thu 25 Feb 2010 09:58:26 GMT+1 nanni kapoor India and Pakistan must talk as two mature and adult democracies to iron out their differences in a basket approach, that is, basket by basket of problems to be resolved. By eating this mammoth elephant one manageable peace by one only can they find peace.Hawks on both sides will detract but the key is to determine the true negotiators in Pakistan - the military establishment..unless they are brought to the negotiation table, the process would be frivolous.check out my views Thu 25 Feb 2010 08:25:07 GMT+1 Ocelot_X1 Wow, there is so much hate over here. I guess people are not ready for talks. I would just like to make a few comments:a) About the Mumbai attacks and terrorism in generalYes Mumbai attacks were caused by some people based inside Pakistan. However, there were also some Indians involved in the attack as well, along with people from New York and Italy. The terrorists who committed those acts were not and are not loyal to Pakistan and the Pakistani people. There is no proof that the Pakistani government, military or intelligence were involved in the incident nor did Pakistan have any interest in committing such an act. I gotta say that Indians (especially on this blog) are very reactionary people. Terrorism has been committed by both sides. Have the Indians forgotten about Samjhota express train bombing? In fact in this case there was direct proof linking Indian generals to the incident. I don't want to play any blame game but I would like people on both sides to react RATIONALLY to the situation.b) Kashmir IssueKashmir is a strategic province for Pakistan. Pakistan is primarily an agricultural country and all of our water comes from Kashmir. Pakistan's fight for Kashmir is the same fight India waged in 1947 on the princely state of Hyderabad. Why did India attack Hyderabad in 1947? Have you forgotten "Hyderabad Police Action/Operation Polo"? Was it not for strategic reasons? Kashmir is more strategic too Pakistan than Hyderabad was to India. Pakistani people cannot accept India controlling our sovereignty and bullying us by controlling our waters...The way India is bullying Bangladesh right now.c) Issue of Bangladesh and covert warfarePakistan and India have been fighting indirect wars (Khalistan, Bangladesh, Baluchistan e.t.c). These wars are totally wrong. No outside country should be taking part in internal disputes of a country. It's like if you had a domestic problem in your house, would you want your neighbor to break into your house? I wouldn't. Pakistani politicians (Bhutto's) treatment of Bengali's was brutal and unfair. No Pakistani person today denies that however we believe that things got worse after the Indian involvement. Quebec also had serious disputes with Canada (some would say more serious then Pakistan/Bengal) but eventually they were able to reconcile and since then every Prime minister has been french from Quebec. However,there were terrorist bombings and assassinations when the french premier came to Quebec and made only a small speech about liberation of Quebec. Therefore, foreign influence is never good in such circumstances.d) India's Attitude towards PakistanAfter listening to the Indian media, Indian politicians and Indian comments on the internet, it seems to me and other Pakistani's that Indians still haven't accepted the fact that Pakistan is a sovereign state. Indians need to come to term with this reality...Yes things are bad for us right now (mostly because of the so called war on terrorism) this does not mean that we want India to take over Pakistan. Pakistani's are threatened by your comments and your attitude. Especially, considering the fact the you have the backing of countries such as U.S, Britain and Russia. Most of the Indian television media seems to be run by mindless bollywoodized reactionaries. Pakistan has made a lot of achievements, especially considering that it is almost 1/3rd the size of India. I understand why Indians are optimistic at this moment, but I don't understand why they can't be more humble and modest when it comes to treatment of others. I would like to recommend the same to some Pakistani's (the likes of Zaid Hamid). Thu 25 Feb 2010 07:31:46 GMT+1 indiablogger815 @Sasidhar,Seems my prev comment was deleted. My main points were#1: India's BMD system will be deployed in couple of years. Pakistan doesnt have guaranteed delivery system to make any sneak attack. They didnt do it at the height of Kargil war, when India did not have BMD and they will do it now ? Time to call in their bluff.#2: Taliban will not do it. Taliban is hyped up by Western media. They are mainly fighting for their homeland taken away by the Americans. Their primary motive is NOT Global Jihad (As for who is running Global Jihad & reaping the benefits from the "protection money" shelled out by US, I will leave it upto you). They are NOT Al Quaeda. Taliban is Anti-West, Anti-non-Islam. Pakistan is primarily Anti-Indian, with dreams of restoring "their" ancestral Empire India (though not in ANY point of time did the Muslims have complete control of India, thats a different matter). I have met Pashtun people - they are not all that anti-Indian. Whatever they did (capturing PoK, Indian Airlines hijack, Jihad in Kashmir etc.), they did that under the puppeteering of PakArmy/ISI. Post 9/11, they have tremendous feeling of betrayal by the Pakistanis. So, it is still possible that some kind of relationship can be built up with Taliban in control. We have seen Pak Army/ISI for 6 decades, I say why not Taliban ? Let the Pakistani elites reap what they sowed. @Laeeq,"Last but not the least, Hiundu's in general have for the first time had some degree of freedom in the last 500 years or so (excuse my dates)"I will excuse your history also. At no point in time did the Islamic empires have complete control over India, its a myth taught in Pakistan's schools. Even during the time frame you mentioned, there were Marathas, South Indian Kingdoms, Rajputs & Sikhs. In fact it was the Marathas who dragged Aurangazeb into a 27 year old war and totally bankrupted the Mughal Empire. The British just capitalized on the vacuum left by the weakened Mughal Empire & generally fragmented rest of India. Thu 25 Feb 2010 03:38:21 GMT+1 indiablogger815 @Laeeq,"Come on my man, grown up, Lets call Spade a Spade where necessary!!"Sure. Pak killed 3 MILLION and RAPED 400,000. If India kills 3M+1 & rapes 400K+1, then we can talk on equal terms. Until then, arguments like "my neighbour's 3 yr old son has constipation... RAW must be responsible, so Pakistan's 3 Million equal to RAWs subversion" dont have much value.As for India's "opportunism", #1: India as a neighbour who saved 10 MILLION refugees has a moral responsibility. #2: India did NOT declare war on Pakistan. Pakistan DID & LOST. Go read your history if you must."The facts that i mentioned above will remain facts and none of your Jugglery will be able to change it."An interesting pattern exhibited by all the Pakistani posters here. When countered with facts & logic, they say "what I speak is the absolute truth... because I BELIEVE in it, your arguments dont count for much". We cannot debate on "faith", only on reason & facts. "You seem to be kidding yourself when you forget the screams and large protests in the Indian Occupied Kashmir which is ranked amongst flashpoints like Palestine."Pls read my other posts. Who is Pakistan to complain about it ? Kashmiri Muslims are only 3.5% of the total Muslim Indian population. Let our 96.5% of Muslim Indian *CITIZENS* complain about it. In such a scenario, I, a non Muslim Indian citizen, will personally side with the Muslim Indians. But it has not happened so far. Thu 25 Feb 2010 03:05:38 GMT+1 Charu Khopkar This post has been Removed Wed 24 Feb 2010 23:04:25 GMT+1 KARNAL This post has been Removed Wed 24 Feb 2010 20:25:10 GMT+1 sahil mahajan if India really want to talk with pak ,they should talk with pak army not govt for obvious reasons Wed 24 Feb 2010 18:09:36 GMT+1 hiren Why wasting your time, our time & whole world's time of talking with your neighbours who dont care of anything. After all who need peace? is it you? is it me? is it us? or is it religion? Mark this word... this issue will not resolve at all so no need to talk at all. Just let it be like that. Instead of wasting time on talking & writing on pages & pages just be more focus on nation's security spend money on this side.Sometimes its good to read the books. Books or short messages are lovely or eye soothering but hard to digest. If you disagree than we were reading all holy books like BHAGVAT GITA, KURAN & BIBLE... but who follows it? By reading sometime most of the people make their eyes full of tears but after few minutes who cares..Please i respect you as a journalist.. I think one should not talk about something they cannot rectify so .. Mr. Biswas please dont bring this issue again. thanks,Hiren Wed 24 Feb 2010 17:48:11 GMT+1 mitty_w Some sections of the media say India should not talk. Ok, what else can we do?1. Fight Pakistan overtly? And get nuked? Counter-nuked? Everybody knows that at the current level, anti-ballistic missile system is a joke. And Pakistan Army is not a pushover. 2.Fight Pakistan covertly? The thing is, covert wars have a nasty habit of blowing up in your face. Anyone want to see the Mumbai Stock Exchange rammed a la WTC?3.Conduct 'regime change'? Ha ha ha. Is there a 'regime' in Pakistan?4.Cut off Indus water? That's a war crime, by the way. You wanna play as dirty as your enemy? 5.Cold War? Allow Pakistan to destroy itself economically? You need a lot of 'friends' to do that. Not a single country around us is a friend. And our strategic position is too unfavourable. So all we can do is to do nothing. Or talk. Not talking hasn't stopped terrorist attacks. Nobody wins a staring match. The current generation of Pakistanis are not amenable, but maybe we can hope for the future..And in the meanwhile, protect ourselves. India is NOT a superpower, not in a hundred years. We haven't even resolved our inner problems. Having internal stability is the basic minimum requirement.(along with hypocrisy)As for Kashmir, I don't know if talks can solve it, but i'm sure war will not solve it. Conquering the whole of Kashmir? Arey, we can't even manage 3/4 of Kashmir.We just have to hope that an Indian equivalent of Henry Kissinger will be born some day. (And that guy shafted Latin America, by the way.)Those of you criticising Indira Gandhi.. She had more guts than any PM, and she came closest to cleaning out Pakistan. But the woman had some common sense too. Had she continued the 1971 war into Pakistan, India would face the same situation as Soviets in Afghanistan. And Indira was seen as a socialist. Forgot what the CIA does to ambitious socialists? Wed 24 Feb 2010 14:16:40 GMT+1 Laeeq @Sasidhar & VIVEK:Do you think India is a goody two shoes state with no stains? Come on my man, grown up, Lets call Spade a Spade where necessary!!Do you think india RAW is sucking lollies and has no blood on its hands?Rhetorics can not take over the reality. The facts that i mentioned above will remain facts and none of your Jugglery will be able to change it. Unless India changes its "Opportunist" tactic's the situation will not be subdued. India is finding it difficult to believe that its much smaller neighbour has the SPINE to stand up to it and react in the same fashion that the bigger bully in the region does. You seem to be kidding yourself when you forget the screams and large protests in the Indian Occupied Kashmir which is ranked amongst flashpoints like Palestine. "AAaal is not well in India and its antics"..........!! Wed 24 Feb 2010 12:21:48 GMT+1 vivek #82 gutsy: that was what u meant, did i write that??? parameters of success, well sasidhar has given enough of them...we were debating on this only, regardless of the many a wars, pakistan is still the same, that talks are meaningless and blah blah, u were the one to infuse non-issues by bringing in power, superiority, UNO etc..#88 laeeq: when babri happened none of us were around on this blog so u really cant say what our individual reactions were and plz dont talk abt bangaldesh, rightfully urs (ha!), enuf is known to u too i guess and the rest of what u write is nonsense...@sasidhar and indiablogger: lets stop here, things are clear like water from the arctics, but some people are of a different make and prefer staying in a trance... Wed 24 Feb 2010 11:56:22 GMT+1 sasidhar @Laeeq, 1)So do u expect India to keep watching the mad actions by your Generals in Bangladesh, how many people according to international papers have been killed.., 3 million people have murdered just for not accepting to be Arabised, till to date not even a single Pakistani political analyst or spokesperson.. has said it was India's mistake to break Pakistan into two., your retired air chief Marshall said that it is because of the historic blunder by Yhaya Khan and Bhutto you had to lose half of the country, how can we take 200 million refugees and many more millions crossing into India.2) Every time we come up with talks you have the habit of sending flowers and the delivery boys are Afgan taliban and LET and JEM terrorists. 3) Babri Masjid demolition was a mistake, the resultant BJP was pathetically defeated in the recent elections and they can only come into power again.. if they show some real developmental agenda for India and promise a secular stand., As far as I know no country is perfect, how can a Pakistani has a moral right to speak about other countries when they themselves are from the most dangerous country on the planet, We have a courage and open mindedness to accept our mistakes., not like Pakistanis who think every thing that happens in their country is planned by either US-UK-Israel.4) That is the differance between India and Pakistan, we think we are a secular country no one in India believes that India is Hindu nation, 350 million Muslims live out side pakistan in Indian sub continent, so what is the need of having a muslim home land when 70% live in Secular India or democratic Bangladesh.., where as our previous head of states are Muslims, Hindus, Christians and our prime minister is a Sikh. The Generals who defeated pakistan in 1971 were a Parsi Jew Sikh n Muslim with majority of soldiers who are Hindu.. So India would be never be a Hindu country it will remain a secular nation and keep dreaming the breakup of India.. Wed 24 Feb 2010 11:43:15 GMT+1 Laeeq We here in Pakistan have seen and felt time and time again the "opportunistic" hindu mentality. 1- India's direct intervention in East Pakistan resulted in the creation of a runaway state. By what Mantra do the Indian people and its establishment feel that we the Pakistani's do not have the righ to "Take" what is rightfuly ours? 2- India is in a habbit of throwing its weight around. I can aussure you of a thousand flowers for each Pakistani to be sent to every Indian if India decides to change and amend its ways and actually decides to solve issues rather than throwing in spanners. 3- Educated masses per say (i.e who know how to speak and write english) are turning out to be bigger war mongerers. I would like to ask all of the people who have commented on this blog " Where was your sanity / rage and democracy when the Babri mosque was being torn down?4- Last but not the least, Hiundu's in general have for the first time had some degree of freedom in the last 500 years or so (excuse my dates). Its important that she treads this road carefully or the day we see a thousand Mini India's will not be too far away. Wed 24 Feb 2010 10:20:18 GMT+1 samyak gowda Why should India talk with a failed terrorist country who is hellbent on destroying itself.Even today, Pakistani media (lead by the likes of Zaid Hamid) are doing a great job in brainwashing the Pakistani public. 99% of Pakistani public live in darkness.Like Pakistani journalist (Nadeem Paracha) writes, Pakistanis don't know their own history because Pakistani textbooks have been teaching a distorted version starting from Zia's time.Like Indira Gandhi insisted always, Pakistan should be further divided by the international community. Balochistan should never have been a part of Pakistan.Just YESTERDAY, Hafeez Saeed (the mastermind of 26/11) called upon the Paks to wage Jihad against India. People like him are teaching absolute balderdash to the awam of Pakistan (who live in eternal darkness). Pakistanis have been made to believe that Kashmiris are being killed in hundreds everyday by the Indian army. While in fact UNO has lauded India for taking up development activities in JnK while chided Pakistan for completely ignoring Pakistan-Occupied-Kashmir.Thousands are waiting to infiltrate into India and hundreds are infiltrating everyday into India to kill innocent civilians. Pakistani army, even today supports and helps these terrorists by firing alng the LOC and distracting Indian army.Pakistani govt. is so weak that even USA is getting with Pak army directly to attack the Afghani Taliban inside Pakistan (YES, Pakistan is a safe heaven even for Afghan Taliban). What is the point in talking to Pak government? Let Pakistan die a slow death.Just two days ago, two sikhs were beheaded by the Taliban and Yesterday a Hindu was kidnapped by the taliban in NWFP. Coversions, religious persecution of Hindus/Sikhs/Christians/Buddhists/Shia/Ahmadi/Sufi is widespread and is hardly reported by their media, since the media encourages the elimination of minority from that country.I don't even have to remind the people that Pakistan killed 3,000,000 Bangladeshis in 1971 and raped 200,000 women.A country which is probably just worse to a Nazi ruled Germany deserves only stick and no talks.Looking at the way Pakistan is behaving today, Wed 24 Feb 2010 09:05:21 GMT+1 indiablogger815 "Taliban is just anti-western, anti-Islamic* and hence indirectly anti-Indian. "Correction. I meant anti-non-Islamic. Wed 24 Feb 2010 03:05:45 GMT+1 indiablogger815 This post has been Removed Wed 24 Feb 2010 03:02:00 GMT+1 sasidhar @Indiablogger815, yea buddy, We are better off with out Pakistan, definitely what you said is correct, Hindus would vote for their language and caste etc.., but I cannot agree with you saying that It would be in India's advantage if Taliban takes over Pakistan., you should be kidding, if that happens we will see shaheens and ghauris flying on to Indian cities as most of our neighbours (Chinese, Burmese, Pakistanis, Bangladeshi's) think that Indians are the agents of US and UK, and getting educated watching movies is all considered to be Americanisation, Can we really take a risk of having a fully nuclear armed Taliban state., As you already know Shaheen can cover most of India., So with in its range they can only find India but not any other pro-western nation. Wed 24 Feb 2010 01:03:59 GMT+1 indiablogger815 @Gutsy,"In this state of mind people should seriously consider consulting a good therapist otherwise in next level" .... they start killing 3 MILLION & rape 400,000 people in Bangladesh, or they grow beards and hijack planes and smash into Twin Towers & kill 3000 people, or they get on a boat & start killing hundreds of innocents in Mumbai, or they strap up bombs and blow themselves up every Friday yelling Allah-u-Akbar. Tue 23 Feb 2010 22:07:42 GMT+1 GutsyBex People always end up comparing India and Pakistan when there is no {can not be any} comparison....interesting behavior.@VivekIf you have more people then let them die at the hands of terrorists...this is what you meant? And by the way what last three wars brought to India(I don't not care what happened to Pakistan-I want to see what changed(for good) in my life)...Terrorists coming to Kashmir, daring to attack Parliament, attacking innocent people in the cities...??May be we should (re)think what are the parameters of success.@SasidharI completely agree with you United India could have been the best thing happened to us. We could have been most prosperous nation in the world up till now. BUT this is life, we don't always get what we wish for.Lets learn to live what we have got. @indiablogger815In this state of mind people should seriously consider consulting a good therapist otherwise in next level they start burning cinemas where Shahrukh khans movies are being played or start beating/killing poor migrant workers(from UTTAR PARDESH) in Mumbai or start burning shops selling Valentin's day flowers/cards. Tue 23 Feb 2010 21:18:20 GMT+1 indiablogger815 @SRK,When I/others here speak objectively, you take cover subjectively !"'The other side is too bad to talk to. Hate 'em!'"Its not the question of Pakistan being bad. The common man anywhere in the world, including Pakistanis & Indians, wants the same thing - a job, an education, health care, three meals a day, roof over head, religious freedom & respect as a human being. As long as Pakistan is ruled by the military elite, things are not going to change. I just dont see the point of holding talks. The last time Vajpayee did that, Pak was secretly planning for Kargil. The way I see it, if there has to be peace in the sub continent, Pakistan Army & ISI must be completely dismantled."please believe me when i say yours is a glass house too! "I welcome you to ask your fellow co-religionists about India. I also saw this beautiful documentary "Miseducation of Pakistan". 8th grade students cant even write their own name in Urdu. Biology lessons embedded with verses from Quran. History lessons which preach victimization & jihadism right from the childhood. You can watch that and ask your self honestly if that is the fate you want to subject your fellow countrymen to. Tue 23 Feb 2010 21:09:56 GMT+1 peaceBrother @SRK, Dude, hate is not easy. Its hard work. It requires a focus on the hated object's hateful qualities which is not very easy to sustain if you are a reasonable, 'normal', human being. Why would we hate your country as a whole? What does it get us except a brief surge in testosterone and a way out from the despair of the situation "maro-maaro khatam karo, chain to pade".I love Ghulam Ali. I love seeing Wasim Akram's 2 balls that flattened England in '92 WC on youtube. I love it that they can speak/sing their heart out and I'll totally get it. Why would I or any other Indian hate Pakistanis for being Pakistani?Self-respect is always good but if obtained but denigrating one's neighbor it becomes a poison. Which is why sensible people always compete with and try to emulate someone higher up, and compete for their strengths. In that sense China covets USA's power, India covet's China's growth rate, and some sensible people in the US covet some of India's heritage (Yoga etc) Whatever...What does Pakistan (or the powerful people in Pakistan) covet in Kashmir? Only a way to break India into pieces. Would that get Pakistan anywhere? Hundreds of innocent Indians killed by animals weilding guns and bombs all wanting India to get out of Kashmir.You tell me when was the last time you saw a man/woman of Indian origin wanting to kill innocent men and women attack Peshawar/ Karachi / Islamabad, anywhere in Pakistan? Even one instance (Kashmir is NOT Pakistan btw so don't give an example of militants fighting the Indian Army)See we do not usually have the energy to hate Pakistan, we don't want anything from it except a normal civil neighbourly behaviour. It is usually the other way round.So tell me Shah Rukh, what feeds the hatred on your side of the fence? What do normal Pakistani people want to talk about? What do they want from normal Indian people? Tue 23 Feb 2010 21:02:00 GMT+1 Shahrukh_Khan In my first comment (#57) i already gave the main reasons why Pakistanis dont want to talk to India. And i can also understand why Indians dont want to talk to Pakistan. So all's well!? But somehow Indians seem highly emotional, even obsessed with Pakistan AND VICE VERSA! Dont bother yourselves too much though, India wont disintegrate anytime soon despite its problems, and Pakistan is here to stay as well despite the unfavourable times it is going through! Just sit back and try to do something good for the time being! Tue 23 Feb 2010 20:44:00 GMT+1 Shahrukh_Khan Brilliant! Most of the poeple, Pakistanis as well as Indians nowadays seem to be converging onto the SAME opinion : 'The other side is too bad to talk to. Hate 'em!' I guess i was told that the opposite of love is not hate but indifference! (Talk about looking for a silver lining in the darkest of clouds!) Whats a few bad decades between ... ! But anyway, to all those who write bad about my country; please believe me when i say yours is a glass house too! Now can we stop throwing stones at each other already? Tue 23 Feb 2010 20:26:48 GMT+1 indiablogger815 @Sasidhar,"Imagine an United India(Not Hindu India, a secular India or USI) we would have overtaken China already, it would not make a differance if we have a few more million muslims."Saar, creation of Pakistan is the best thing for India. If "strategically brilliant" Quaid-e-Azam hadn't cried for a Muslim homeland, then we would have a united India, with 500M muslims and 800M hindus today. Hindus wont vote unitedly for any hindu party. Hindu votes will be divided across regional, linguistic & caste lines. Muslim votes will be solid for the Muslim League. So all Muslim League has to do is to strike a deal with regional parties to maintain majority. Result - India would have been under Muslim League rule for the past 6 decades. India would have become an emirate. Muslim League would have achieved what no Islamic empire has ever achieved in the past thousand years - complete control of the Indian subcontinent. Thanks to the strategic brilliance of Quaid-e-azam, our motherland is not run by any science-hating, progress-hating, modernization-hating, close-minded religious nut jobs. Be careful for what you wish for. Tue 23 Feb 2010 19:39:04 GMT+1 indiablogger815 @gutsy,"Now Indian govt is already starting talks with Pakistan, well they had no other option."What makes you think India has no other option ? India talks to Pak because of US pressure behind the scenes. Ofcourse many of us are opposed to this & we will express our disapproval in the next election. Pakistan is already in a mess. Pakistan only understands brute force. Pakistan doesnt understand subtle forces as India does. India has drawn Pakistan into a decades long arms race. India is a bigger solid economy, India can survive, Pakistan cannot. India knows very well that Pak cannot win this one. Pakistan is desperately dependent on military & financial aid. Tell me how many "sovereign" countries in the world would sign up for the death of their own people through foreign drones ? Non Punjabis are already alienated. Pashtuns are rebelling. Not to mention Balochis. Its only a matter of time before Pakistan implodes. So, talking is the "only option" for India, is all BS. As for someone who said that Taliban takeover of Pakistan is problem for India also - WRONG. This is time for celebration for India. Why ? Because Pak nukes are solely pointed at India. Taliban takeover would divide the problem equally between US/West & India => lesser burden for India. It will also cut down one of the life lines of Pakistan - US financial & military aid. So, the only remaining problem would be financial aid from Saudi & military aid from China. As for Taliban "nuking" India - hehehehe, how many of you actually believe that ? Taliban fights very hard to grab power only to commit suicide ? May I please have what you are smoking. Thank you. Tue 23 Feb 2010 19:22:57 GMT+1 sasidhar @Vivek., yes, our government already going ahead with the talks., let us c wat happens., Pakistan is arresting all the Taleban leaders and handing over them to Americans., Dont know what deal they have made., Let us hope this American exit from Afganistan dosent cost us Kashmir. We already become fools by extending a friendship hand to Afganistan we spent billions of dollars for reconstruction and when 80% of Afgans consider Indians as their best friends., Pakistan taken a dramatic step, when it realised that its going to take the shot., it brought the taliban into the fire, which untilnow it is protecting. So, as far as I can see this pakistan can go to any extent if it is being threatened by bringing India in between, such is the obsession that it got on India. Am afraid what Manmohan Singh govt is going to sacrifice to let the Americans leave Afganistan graciously. Even if we sacrifice something to the sake of peace in South Asia., it would be misconstrued as a defeat of US-India-Israel and the resultant will only be much more worse than actually it is now. Pakistan should renounce terrorism for ever, problems between nations can only be resolved by mutual dependency for trade, commerce, education, cultural exchanges but not by sending terrorists over high seas and mountain ranges. 60 years since Independence India's stragetic assests are its worlds largest democracy, highly skilled work force, fourth largest economy (in terms of purchasing power), massive Infrastructure, its ability to produce highest no of Doctors and Engineers, which is scaring Obama aswell :) Its 500 million middle class who are the worlds largest market, Its second largest army, its space program, 70% population who are less than 30 years, largest and wealthiest diaspora across the world and specially its multi cultural, multi lingual , multi ethinic population.. with these assets the worlds most powerful countries are bound to lay red carpet for Indian leaders world wide.., where as pakistan its strategic assets are Its diaspora who are a migrane for every country they live in, who demand separate status and get involved in 99% terrorist plots, Afgan taliban is the greatest asset it ever produced, LET JEM JUD in "AZAD" Kashmir, Asif Ali Zardari, Zaid Hamid, Sunni groups in Sistian Balochistan, A global tourist destination for terrorists, a sancutuary for Tazek, Uzbek, Ugihur, Kazak militants, A wonderful army who over thown the govt for 50 years and hanged a former prime minister. Bravo... its costs a fortune to keep pakistan alive., it is the only country in the world that threatens a suicide if it was not helped.. No leader would ever leave the country as they dont know who would be the incharge when they come back......... Even if Pakistan pleads India to take it back., we simply say No Thanks., we are better off.., like how we are., we dont want a whole generation of brainwashed 6th Century Jihadists roaming around on our streets... Tue 23 Feb 2010 16:10:28 GMT+1 Prashanth Same words again.. Don't know what special result will emerge which had failed for past 40 to 50 yrs.People from both the sides are fed up with these talks. A failed state has no rights to talk.Country supporting the terrorism going to archive nothing than empty land.Iam sure soon people from Pakistan will seek life in neighbor countries. Im It is India will come forward to help..Because we are Indians,we helkp people who come to us.. Tue 23 Feb 2010 12:53:52 GMT+1 vivek @gutsybex: it seems u have this great thing in u,upcoming power u said regaridng india, actually u doubled up on what i said, with a sick psyche of course, why cant u ppl digest india's stature, refernces are many, but u wont take that into account am sure...u see, i have this amaging ability of bringing to threads and basics every nation on earth, what it is and what it can be, so for god sake get realsitic and dont use double meanings...why cant u gulp down ur throat something as basic as rising incomes in india, rising GDP, rising influence, better health, etc...and agin, i will repeat, we dont care, we care for our internal prblms and we will work every damn problem with a solution...and that doesnt mean we have left our foreign policies to the sink Tue 23 Feb 2010 11:33:51 GMT+1 vivek @sasidhar: once again u wrote brilliant and with insight...our govt is allegedly going ahead with the 'talks', let see what fruit it bears...@gutsybex: and u know exactly for this reason (so that emotional ppl like u dont take us wrong) that i was talking about strengthening our backbone so that we can do more, why do u miss on some part, i have never painted my country gold, we have loopholes and we are working on that, we havent left any attacks unaccounted for, we have done our best taking every thing into account, we have a government, we have a zillion issues (unlike israel, america (another emotional nation), georgia, russia, etc) stop this nonsense of deciding strength and weakness on that account... Tue 23 Feb 2010 11:20:08 GMT+1 vivek @gutsybex: again came the blah blah blah from u, history as I said u must read, Israel, America, fine!! these countries have more snakes than people (ha!), we are a billion plus people with humanitarian concerns (get it right buddy), a war we can ensue, but we care for our people and soldiers, ok!!! war must be a last resort (plz don’t force me to get into platonic details regarding that) we have had many a wars with pakistan (u seemed to be too intelligent to miss out that), we have one of the largest armies, one of the largest dealers in arms… and plz why am I telling u all this, u know everything right (u just are guided by plain emotions)..get ur knowledge right and then we will talk… u seem to be a war mongering guy…and u talked of ‘talk’, wonder why???coz u consider we are better that way… let’s see, that’s again none of ur business (not mine either)…we have a population to feed and an army of problems, we can do a lot but we have inhibitions so stop that ‘power’ thing…and yeah india is getting importance (thanx on that) but I had said, we don’t care (that attention is inevitable for a great and deserving nation like ours) ont that the world doesn’t cares…we indians have a way of getting things done (u see it as weakness, be happy on that) and if u wish I can elaborate…see we even mastered ur language better than u…get real and read and re-read what I had written… Tue 23 Feb 2010 11:01:47 GMT+1 Sudipta Chaudhuri Kashmir is not a disputed Territory but an Integral part of Indian Republic. After the 26/11 attack, there were official DOSIERS given to PAKISTAAN on the terrorists and the attack. So your comment "stones have to be pelted at each other through the media to satisfy tired domestic constituencies in both countries" is also objectionable. Please avoid usage of such comments on a very sensitive matter. Tue 23 Feb 2010 10:22:06 GMT+1 sasidhar Its funny to see pakistani comments.., I appreciate the pro-pakistani commenters who are supporting talks., infact this is what pakistanis requesting from the last 1 year, they very well know that they cannot bring stability to their country with out talking to India about kashmir, as they are too obsessed on it, they talk about supporting the kashmiri cause, Well.. its all about water politics, India can turn the taps off anytime.. if it gets upset with pakistan., so Kashmir is the throat of Pakistan. They wanted to do the same with India by offering IPI gas line, but India rejected it, Is there any postive coming out of that country? one significant contribution to the world? Nothing., to be honest If Mohammad Ali Jinna was alive he would have taken refuge in India. He fought for a country which failed in every aspect and is now a money minting machine for the fuedals and military dictators. An average pakistani got nothing more than an Identity as a Pakistani, Imagine an United India(Not Hindu India, a secular India or USI) we would have overtaken China already, it would not make a differance if we have a few more million muslims. Pakistani leaders again and again blackmail India that today its pakistanis problem tomorrow its going to be India's problem (they should be kidding as Indian muslims are the least likely to get exposed to these consipiracy theories,they are moderate, well educated, peaceloving INDIAN citizens). Pakistan authorities sound very innocent and keep sayin we are victims, we lost more people for terrorism than any other nation, why would you not lose your citizens when your forigen policy plays with the lives of innocent people. People who think that US and India hold the cards in Afganistan are completely wrong, Pakistan hold every card in this game, Taliban was created by them (With US money ofcourse), supported and trained by them, protected by them in Karachi until now, who inturn killed thousand of NATO troops, now when it started feeling the heat of Teh-E-Taliban(P) and with growing Indian influence and with US inviting Indian army to train Afgan army, they felt the need to arrest taliban and they did, So for pakistani administration having a grip on Afganistan is more important than the lives of its citizens.Would pakistan ever let Afganistan to prosper, they keep worrying about Kashmir and Afganistan they should understand that they should work towards democracy, educating the people, health and other important aspects of a nation building, if they keep worrying about India and Kashmir and stratigic assets, they may not survive longer, already it is P/2--K/3stan, so now it wants P(full),A(Afganistan),K(Kashmir) and for its abmitions normal citizens are dyeing everyday... So what is there to talk.. Pakistan survives on the hate of India, so how can we ever expect it to be a peaceful neighbour. If there is no hate on India., there is no reason for a pakistani state to exist. Tue 23 Feb 2010 09:40:41 GMT+1 indiablogger815 @SRK,"Where in my comments did you find a mention of Bangladesh?"ahem, didnt I quote your "right from day-one". So "day-one" doesnt include Bangladesh ? What about 15000 sq km land captured in (West) Pakistan ? You conveniently ignored that one, didnt you ?"your figures about Bangladesh are so horribly wrong"Chk this, it is well sourced. gems:* Bangladeshi authorities claim that 3 million people were killed* It is believed in certain quarters that the figure of three million has its origins in comments made by Yahya Khan to the journalist Robert Payne on 22 February 1971: "Kill three million of them, and the rest will eat out of our hands.* Time reported a high U.S. official as saying "It is the most incredible, calculated thing since the days of the Nazis in Poland." *Numerous women were tortured, raped and killed during the war... Susan Brownmiller refers to an even higher number of over 400,000. * The Guinness Book of Records lists the Bengali atrocities as one of the top 5 genocides in the 20th century. (GREAT JOB !!!) Tue 23 Feb 2010 03:10:29 GMT+1 GutsyBex @ siavonga"Do not consider India's peaceful nature as a 'weakness'".are you kidding??Terrorists have attacked Indian parliament building(what worst can be in the modern world), have attacked/killed innocent civilians in the cities. Whole world knows from where they came and where they were trained/equipped. India's response to all this is 'peaceful nature' not 'weakness'And moreover this 'none sense' is what you call 'rational thinking'?@Vivekbuddy!! (read above and believe) world is giving exactly precise importance, India(upcoming power) deserves(sorry again contrary to your belief) Powers show their power,Like US does-even Israel does, they dont shout 'power, power'.Now Indian govt is already starting talks with Pakistan, well they had no other option. Which is good they might agree something on all outstanding problems. And you know what i don't want my children' future (and future of more then billion people) suffer because of some thousand square km piece of land. Mon 22 Feb 2010 21:36:26 GMT+1 Shahrukh_Khan @Mr Vivek : Thanks; i too have some nice friends of Indian origin. Yes, we all have our dreams for a better tomorrow. I think we can agree on one thing that you mentioned; that there is pain; let me just add..'on both sides': and also that i want all of it to go away. @indiablogger815 : Whereas your desperation and nervousness is perfectly understandable to us all, the lack of attention, common sense and general knowledge is not! Where in my comments did you find a mention of Bangladesh?? (go read it again before putting up a comment about it). And to put it as mildly as possible, your figures about Bangladesh are so horribly wrong, they are beyond the scope of correction and don't even deserve to be commented upon. If you read my article again (only this time using your brain), it may dawn on you that your inaccurate and irrational outburst only served to prove me right, yet again! Mon 22 Feb 2010 19:27:06 GMT+1 indiablogger815 @SRK,"right from day-one, the Indians never acknowledged a Pakistani's biggest asset, his IDENTITY."This is one of the often peddled nonsense I come across in forums. #1: India gave away Pakistan - thats a POLITICAL SETTLEMENT. Pakistan did not "win" land from India. If India had denied for creation of Pakistan and there was a prolonged conflict (like in SL) & then the state of Pak was established, that would have been relevant, but thats not the case. So India doesnt have any problem with the idea of Pakistan.#2: India helped to create Bangladesh. If India had not believed in the aforementioned political settlement, then India would have made Bangladesh another state in the Indian union rather than giving them independence. India captured 15,000 sq km of Pakistan land in 1971, but then gave up in exchange for Simla agreement. Why would any country having problem with another country's "identity" give up conquered land ? And what is Pakistan identity ? We already know it didnt include Bengalis (3 million killed and 400,000 women raped, great job). Does it include Balochis, Sindhis, Pashtuns, Christians, Hindus, Shias & Ahamadiyas ? (apparently Shias & Ahmadiyas dont qualify as muslims, LOL!) Mon 22 Feb 2010 09:35:24 GMT+1 indiablogger815 @gutsy,There are two perspectives:1. Kashmir is a territorial problem: By instrument of accession, this issue is settled as far as India is concerned. Kashmir's accession to India is as valid as the rest of the states joining India.2. Kashmir is a human-rights problem: Kashmir muslims = 5 Million. Total Indian muslims = ~140 M. Only 3.5% of Muslim Indians are in Kashmir. 96.5% of the Muslim Indians dont have any problem with India's approach to so-called Kashmir issue. If anything, India must talk to Muslim Indians. Where does Pakistan come into picture ? AS for UN mandate whatever: India agreed to conduct plebiscite in Kashmir. The condition laid out by UN was that Pakistan must pull out of "Azad" Kashmir. Since Pakistan refused to pull out, we're in a stalemate. The ball has been in Pakistan's court, for the past 6 decades. Next time you spout your nonsense do some fact checking. Mon 22 Feb 2010 08:56:35 GMT+1 vivek @gutsybex: sadly world thinks exactly opposite to what you have always believed/taught about kashmir, argh!! as if we give a damn!!! who thinks what is none of my business...and shud i be telling u what more the world thinks, the list is endless, plz this world-thinks-what is for the books and not for the greiving!!! come out of this trance... Mon 22 Feb 2010 07:21:24 GMT+1 vivek @gutsybex: to whichever part of the world u belong to, for god sake dont tell us to have knowledge and that too 'general', i dont want to drag u into that, and enuf has been said about UN so no comments there too, a body which doesnt even give due credence to upcoming powers (huh!) making charters and keeping them in digital forms, thats all what they do, and plz these talks of peace and blah blah, keep them with you, and write that in the blogs of china and america and russia..ok...they are the nations that shud be talking, not us...@mr khan: though i have deep symapthy with u and ur feelings (an ordinary indian has no grudge whatsoever with an ordinary pakistani), i have some gud frnds from across the border too, its about the pain (am not goining to weigh it down from either sides), just that the futility of talks have to be based on something and that base is sadly missing...we all want to live in a peaceful world and am sure peace will the cost of what, thats a big and dreaded issue.. Mon 22 Feb 2010 07:15:08 GMT+1 siavonga @ GutsyBex,We don't care what the world thinks. We care for our country which we are not going to allow to be pushed around any longer. We are not irrational, but actually very rational thinkers indeed. Do not consider India's peaceful nature as a 'weakness'. Nothing could be further from the truth. India never has, nor wants to go around bombing other countries into submission as we know that never wins the peace, but inflames hatred. Similarly spreading terrorism will never win peace either but rather harden our resolve further. No talks until all cross-border violence is brought to a complete halt and terrorist camps completely disbanded. It's as simple as that. There is no more to say, no endless arguments/counter arguments, period. This the last you hear from me as any more from me on this subject is tantamount to lending credibility to your worn out anti-Indian jingoism. Mon 22 Feb 2010 05:42:35 GMT+1 deep22 >>>> #57, Shahrukh_khan wrote a load of hogwash and signed off with this comment-"If we long for more war, we WILL INDEED HAVE more war!"We don't have to go back too much in history to see which country is a warmonger.Read how Kargil war started, here some report of Pakistan Media and its obsession with India, right here at BBC Sun 21 Feb 2010 23:48:33 GMT+1 GutsyBex @55,56-deep22,siavonga,OthersDude I don't want to go into endless chain of arguments/counter arguments about who did what and why Kashmir should/should not be part of Pakistan/India. Here are two simple facts, and you know what that mean(sadly world thinks exactly opposite to what you have always believed/taught about Kashmir).->Kashmir is DISPUTED territory BETWEEN INDIA AND PAKISTAN(UN).->India, as nation member state, has signed/accepted the charter/mandate of UN and is signatory to the UN's resolutions on Kashmir. Now topic here is why should India-Pakistan talk.I completely agree with the author that there is no other way of moving forward.Its completely un-understandable that reasonably educated(lets forget uneducated masses) people have so irrational views about problems at hand.India does not have ANY economic influence on Pakistan.India can not use military force on Pakistan.How the hell you are going to solve the problems(at least Indians want to solve terrorists problem if not Kashmir) by NOT TALKING? How NOT TALKING is better then talking, even then 'useless talking'-as some comments say here? dragging the problems will bring peace and prosperity for our future generation or solving them? Sun 21 Feb 2010 23:32:55 GMT+1 BakedBeans >>> Pakistani's biggest asset, his IDENTITYWhat is it ? Would love to learn about it :) Sun 21 Feb 2010 21:12:22 GMT+1 Shahrukh_Khan To Mr Biswas : Sir, as a Pakistani, i find your article and your choice of pictures here clearly biased and prejudiced, yet hardly surprizing coming from a man of Indian origin. To the Indians who have openly expressed their hate (yes, thats what that feeling is called) for my country here; i honestly have to thank you all. Why? Because even after seeing so much evidence to the contrary, a few (rather very few, now) Pakistanis still think that an average Indian might consider dialogue as an option to resolve matters with Pakistan. I am using your comments to pop their 'hope' bubbles and bring them back to the harsh real world. However, we need to rejoice, since very few of such weirdly optimistic people now remain on either side of the divide, and their number is fast-decreasing. The huge majority of Pakistanis is already saying exactly the same thing about India that most Indians here are saying about Pakistan : 'for what they have done to us, they do NOT deserve to be talked to!' Let me assure all of the worthy contributors, of both countries, that it is difficult to say who hates the other side more! You have read this article by an Indian, and many of the comments. Similarly ask a Pakistani, and he or she would tell you that all bad that has happened between the two nations is the direct result of the deep-rooted grief/disappointment of Indians at the division/partition of their MOTHER-land that gave birth to Pakistan! Hence, right from day-one, the Indians never acknowledged a Pakistani's biggest asset, his IDENTITY. The list of accusations, including subjugating Kashmir with upto 5,00,000 soldiers many of whom used rape as a weapon of choice (all INTERNATIONALLY documented), river water manipulation (also documented), RAW's master-minding and continuous fuelling of a separatist movement in Baluchistan (also..), preparing (read brain-washing) youth in Afghanistan to carry out devastating attacks across Pakistan (same), burning dozens of Pakistani guests on their way back from India on Samjhota Express(...), and so on.., complete with undeniable proofs is very long indeed. The limit of patience has long been crossed! So congratulations to all of us. We all agree to walk as satisfied men and women with a crystal clear conscience! The 'other' side always lies, cheats and steals, because its with the 'devil'! Let the devil have his due then. And to disappoint both sides, INDIFFERENCE has been tried by many on both sides, and they seem to say it has NOT yeilded 'satisfying' effects. Indifference wont do; it has to be HATE! War seems to be a popular option on both sides. If we long for more war, we WILL INDEED HAVE more war! Sun 21 Feb 2010 19:09:38 GMT+1 siavonga @54 GutsyBex,The UN is a complete and utter failure in resolving international issues. In fact, it is an institution dominated by dictatorships, military governments, and insignificant countries. If it had any legitimacy and fairness, there are a multitude of international disputes that would have been solved by now. I don't think the UN's so-called "resolution" on Kashmir is worth the paper it is written on; moreover it is disgustingly anti-Indian in nature. Pakistani's have more terrorist attacks because they were the ones who nurtured them in the first place - "as you sow, so shall you reap". They thought as they helped drive out the Soviets from Afghanistan (something they use to emotionally blackmail the US with all the time), they will "liberate" Kashmir. But they judge wrong as Kashmir is not a 'foreign country' to India as Afghanistan was for the Soviets. We are not being "jingoistic", or giving "reasons", but simply stating the facts. India should never talk to back-stabbers. We've been stabbed enough times. NO MORE WE SAY! Sun 21 Feb 2010 18:30:47 GMT+1 deep22 @54-Gutsybex it is good to be gutsy but exercise your brain muscles. read about kashmir and decide for your self what makes it a default part of Pakistan, it has been under the influence of Hinduism , Buddhism to Sikh rulers along with Muslims in between . you think it should be a part of Pakistan just because there are more Muslims in Kashmir, then may be you should read about the Indian subcontinent before commenting here. Or if you think it is a problem because United Nations thinks so, then Pakistan should leave Bolachistan region too. Sun 21 Feb 2010 16:59:37 GMT+1 GutsyBex @AuthorWell done.. very nicely described account of Indo-Pak relations.Certainly India-Pakistan MUST talk, there is no other way of getting out of this mess.@All OthersFirst of all folks update your 'general knowledge' that Kashmir is a DISPUTED territory BETWEEN INDIA AND PAKISTAN according to United Nations organization, hence considered by all member states.saying that Washington DC is an integral part of India will not make it unless world accepts it.Secondly patriotism is good, jingoism is not. If there were a slightest possibility of striking back(Like US did on Taliban) on Pakistan after Mumbai terrorists attacks, I am sure Indians would have done that. So accept that this is not possible and it will never be, as in worst case destabilized/disintegrated Pakistan will destabilize India too.Pakistanis are facing more terrorist attacks then Indians, for whatever reasons(Now please don't fill this page with the reasons, I know them very well).The only way forward is to sit back and talk for our common good. Sun 21 Feb 2010 14:01:16 GMT+1 lokabandhu Talks with Pakistan will not yield peace .Terrorists based in Pakistan will continue to attack India.And Pakistan will continue to disclaim any responsibility for the attacks blaming it on the unresolved Kashmir issue.But in case Kashmir is handed over to Pakistan the terrorists will demand Hyderabad Lucknow,Bangalore,and Delhi along with the adjoining areas.A strong India is therefore the only answer to the problem,not empty,meaningless talks for talks sake. Sun 21 Feb 2010 13:47:40 GMT+1 Arvind N @ Shehzad - You say "It seems many Indians don't want to talk, especially about Kashmir, the real root of the tension." There is nothing to talk about it as it is a internal matter of India and in Jammu & Kashmir state there is democratically elected government working for decades. You say - "It doesn't make sense how they ever hope to be competitive with China if they don't solve their issues with Pakistan over Kashmir." India has outdone China on many fronts and is progressing magnificently due to its internal strength. Its Pakistan which needs to worry will it be existent next year? You say - "I think the Indian media is doing a good job brainwashing people into having a singular viewpoint and opinion." In India we don't care much what media says. we make our own opinion Sun 21 Feb 2010 08:55:57 GMT+1 Isit Deliberate @#50 Shahzad - I am assuming you are a Pakistani because you said "It doesn't make sense how they ever hope to be competitive with China if they don't solve their issues with Pakistan over Kashmir". First off, why is Kashmir our issue with Pakistan? If anything, it is India's issue with Kashmir i.e. an internal matter. Pakistan stamping its feet about referendum is in itself a proof of that. Secondly, if being competitive with China was India's principal hope, we would not be a democracy. In a democracy, the media has freedom of expression. You blame our media for doing a good job of brainwashing. Nothing could be further from the truth. Times of India (a very respectable English newspaper) got public ire for starting a campaign of cultural exchanges called "Aman ki Asha" meaning "Hope for Peace", when the 26/11 accused is still pleading innocence in Indian courts. When it comes to brainwashing, your country takes the biscuit. Tolerance of other faiths and cultures is an alien concept in your country. Teaching schoolchildren falsified history of their origins, hatred for anything other than monotheism and arabised monoculture has ruined a whole generation of Pakistani's future in the modern world. It is time guys like you smelt the coffee and put your house in order before sermonising India in the forlorn hope of getting Kashmir. Sun 21 Feb 2010 08:31:11 GMT+1 Shahzad Sheikh It seems many Indians don't want to talk, especially about Kashmir, the real root of the tension. It doesn't make sense how they ever hope to be competitive with China if they don't solve their issues with Pakistan over Kashmir. I think the Indian media is doing a good job brainwashing people into having a singular viewpoint and opinion. Everyone is pretty much saying the same things and hardly anyone seems to understand the importance of dialogue. Sun 21 Feb 2010 00:00:43 GMT+1 Nikhil Bhaduri This post has been Removed Sat 20 Feb 2010 18:15:10 GMT+1 Arvind N I have tried to sum up India's plight here. Please comment. Sat 20 Feb 2010 16:47:54 GMT+1 Arvind N Mr Vishwas, you writing this article sitting in Air Conditioned room or me reading it sitting in AC have really very less to opine at this juncture whether India and Pakistan talk or how? Those who have right and authority to give go ahead to the Government of India on this issue are families of martyrs of 26/11, Mr. Hemant Karkare, Mr Ashok Kamte, Mr Vijay Salaskar, Mr Sandeep Unnikrishnan. Also Mrs. Dhar of Kolkata who lost her both children in Pune Blast has the right to grant permission to the government.Current ruling political dispensation in India is already known notoriously having played big cheat on people by means of false election promises (price rise, formation of states, terrorism) must just not be allowed to bully on this issue.By the way is it a must for journalists / so called thinkers to be 100% insensitive to the victims? Do they have to be slaves to their pay masters for whom they write? Sat 20 Feb 2010 14:31:36 GMT+1 svb Mr Biswas Do you currently live in India? or have lived in India for a while or are you one of those arm chair journalists sitting in the ivory tower not knowing the plight of common people.Do you know how much you and your kind hurt us and the nation writing and sermonizing. Did you ever loose your kith and kin in a terrorist attack? Stop telling us what to do!! There is no need for us to talk to Pakistan. What is there to talk to them? Instead we should be talking to Americans and tell them and the west how insensitive they are when they keep propping up Pakistan in spite of it villainy and telling us what to do.We have tolerant for more than 25 years and now is the time if we have any iota of self respect at least not to talk to them until they bring the 26/11 perpetrators to justice. I know that you are on staff of BBC you dont have to blog what people in the west like to hear but to put forward what Indians feel at this time. Sat 20 Feb 2010 13:59:41 GMT+1 drtsiva This post has been Removed Sat 20 Feb 2010 12:52:07 GMT+1 drtsiva Petulance ! I wonder where Mr. Biswas was hibernating all these years. The fact is that India has to contend with the veritable neighbour from hell. A country ruled by unstable dictators for well over half its life since independence and which has spawned a virulent strain of Islamic fundamentalism infecting the world and which has so brazenly permitted/facilitated the launch of terror attacks on its neighbour of the sort that no self respecting country can stomach. And Mr. Biswas terms this as mere Petulance ! I'm lost for words here....... Sat 20 Feb 2010 12:30:23 GMT+1 deep22 History has shown us that talks with Pakistan does not work, especially now when nobody knows who is leading them. There is only one way - India should continue to make itself stronger, economically and invest a lot on wings like RAW. cannot teach or hope to teach an Islamic terrorist to change his ways. It can only provide economic and social security to Indians including Indian Muslim and that is the only way we will at least not have home grown terrorists.Other pointer that will help India in relation to Pakistan:-- Keep up the progressive work in Afghanistan, we need friends in our backyard.- Continue to be critical of China's influence near us. Fri 19 Feb 2010 20:48:54 GMT+1 sajjid zeeshan some very positive points and views i think it is will of people on both sides for peace but not our leaders they never wanted or ever will want peace talks or no talks .i for one would love to see peace because we have lot in common also lot to gain. Fri 19 Feb 2010 20:20:15 GMT+1 maheshB O! My God! This non-stop thunder from each side, this epitome of animosity; will it ever end? Can it ever end? Have we reached the limit of our stupidity and extreme animalism? Have we no regard for life, for humanity?Can we start from where we are? Can political leaders and other influential people tell these two countries to start from where they are?While growing up in Punjab, India in the sixties and despite the 1965 war, I did not feel relations between the two countries were as horrible as they are today. There truly was hope then. I am not sure what we have today.I have no comment left and my pen has broken while writing about India and Pakistan! Fri 19 Feb 2010 19:18:02 GMT+1 Zer00 @babynotbrainwashed - Mate.. you have probably been brainwashed to believe that you are not brainwashed :) Eitherway... even if you believe in what you do, dont you reckon Pakistan should devote itself to fixing her internal issues before solving others' problems. I mean whats the point of integrating Kashmir into Pakistan if Pakistan becomes a failed state in a few years time?As for talking to Pakistan, there is no point really. Vajpayee took a bus all the way to Lahore to talk to them and got a war in return. If claims are to be believed that it was planned without the knowledge of nawaz sharif, then it again raises the question, who should we talk to? What's the point of talking to someone who is not in control of his country? Fri 19 Feb 2010 19:04:03 GMT+1 jammysingh I hope "AUTHOR" has read all the comments left here by "INDIANS" and after reading common sense will pervail and he will "STOP" lecturing us "INDIANS".Regarding our current government, I would only say election will come again and dont take us for granted. Fri 19 Feb 2010 15:25:29 GMT+1 PD How can you talk to savages and brutes? That's the question Indians will ask. Fri 19 Feb 2010 15:15:26 GMT+1 indiablogger815 Pakistanis taking the whole burden of Muslim suffering on their shoulders as if they are the self appointed leaders of the Islamic world is absolutely ridiculous, hypocritical & laughable.#1: Pakistan killed 3 million people & raped 400,000 women during '71 Bangladesh war. Pakistan doesnt have any moral ground to criticize other countries or poke their noses into the issues of any neighbouring country's *internal* problems.#2: Pakistan successfully managed to brand a 1500+ year old religion, which inspired billions of people, into a terrorist religion. Minarets getting banned in Swiss, Burqas getting banned in France, racial profiling of Muslims for security checks - all thanks to Pakistan. I wonder how many people in the Islamic world would actually support Pakistan. Many Pakistanis unfortunately have this delusion that Pakistan is the "guardian of Islam". I wonder if they will ever introspect as to what their leaders have done with this religion of a billion+ adherents.@Shilpy, you hit the nail on the head ! Bravo ! I hope Mr. Biswas read your comment. Fri 19 Feb 2010 09:36:46 GMT+1 vivek @shilpy: pakistan should hold talks with taliban and al qaida. they will understand each other perfectly well since they have a common agenda, language, culture and religionthis was ultimate, seriously, thank for the dash of humor but very aptly said, this i personally think culminates the entire issue...good good hahahahahgreat insight u have girl Fri 19 Feb 2010 06:20:34 GMT+1 vivek @sasidhar: Terrorism in India started ever since soviets left Afganistan which is sponsored funded and trained by Pakistani ArmyThere were no killings before 1989 and Kashmir was peaceful like anyother state in India.the above two facts are untrue, the mujahideens of afghanistan were funded by USA (trained by Pakista is true though) and kashmir was never peacful, the agitation came to much prominence from the 90s (just that)...whatever else u have written is true but that is known to all and i fancy if anything worthwhile will happen on its accountability...nations dont understand the rights and wrongs, they have become obdurate...plain and matter how much of information is passed thru blogs, pakistan is not going to change its attitude and the day isnt long when it will burn in its own fire (and that saddens me coz its really a beautiful nation with beautiful ppl), what upsets me is the not-so-strong stances taken by the indian government... Fri 19 Feb 2010 06:05:15 GMT+1 vivek @yoss: NWFP never wanted to be a part of india and who cares, nobody asked anybody regarding who wants to go where, it was all a hurried decision with little or no ground work, partition was bad for india in the first place, whatever, its not about the good or bad at that time, saurashtra, hyderabad, punjab, baluchistan, sindh, kashmir, who is where now is more important, no nation will give its territory and that has to be accepted by some silly no-brain people...history comes everywhere but we pay little respect to that so lets not go there...lets go by the personality of a nation and that speaks volumes...lets stop it here...i just request our government to strengthen our backbone and make our nation safer and expect little from a failed neighbour... Fri 19 Feb 2010 05:45:57 GMT+1 vivek @brainwashedbaby: it seems u are a survey expert, just coz a handsful of pak-sponsered people from kashmir shout pro-freedom movement (not pro-pakistan and that shud be a relief for them by god) and pelt stones at the police force (some are silly i admit) dont just harp around lobbying that kashmir wants this or that and yeah i admit our government has follies but alas!!! at least we have a government Fri 19 Feb 2010 04:07:12 GMT+1 vivek @brainwashedbaby: it seems u have little knowledge about the history of kashmir that u ended up talking of rape and torture and all that, i forget why people forget their own follies and shout out loud onto others sir plz keep this outburst of emotions confined for soemthing better, how often human rights are violated in pakistan i dont need to make a note of that, and ur own president says filthy about ur own girls (mukhtaran mai is a classic example), girls are treated like shit in pakistan, in india the condition is a tad better and i assure u while u people keep on fighting for silly matters and killing ur girls and boys too we will emerge out strong coz we accept our follies and do our best to reprimand it not like being in deep shit and shouting to the world that we are this and that...get into histrionics frnd but that will make the issue complex (and beyond the comprehension of most from pakistan who are hardly educated)and regarding talking i still maintain no strong nation talks and with a failed state like pakistan, no way!!! Fri 19 Feb 2010 04:03:34 GMT+1 koyel1978 I do not think India should talk to Pakistan. Pakistan is not a nation which is stable enough to keep pledges even if they make them. It is just a waste of time. Let Pakistan resolve its internal problems first, sort out who the actual head of state is and then come to talk. India must must must stop encouraging Pakistan by softening its stand. Lastly two things are essential in any successful negotiations -- that the parties are honest about their own words and they are equally interested in reaching a peaceful settlement. Both of these are untrue for Pakistan. Thu 18 Feb 2010 21:13:16 GMT+1 Shilpy pakistan should hold talks with taliban and al quaida. they will understand each other perfectly well since they have a common agenda, language, culture and religion. i don't see why they should be fighting. also, the shais and sunnis should hold talks in pakistan since they have been fighting. the punjabis and sindhis should hold talks since they hate one another. they should hold talks with baluchistanis which wants freedom.why india? i just don't get it. Thu 18 Feb 2010 20:49:48 GMT+1 asianview Why India and Pakistan must talk.I agree both India and Pakistan must talk but to date almost all talks between these two nations have not born fruit. In addition Pakistan's ally China is doing Islamabad's wishes as in the outrageous Chinese claim on parts of the Indian state of Kashmir. In order for these talks to work the China factor has to be removed. India cannot do this but India's alliance with the US could bear fruit if the US prevents interference from China and allows a true bilateral talks between India and Pakistan to take place. Thu 18 Feb 2010 20:34:19 GMT+1 madhu After all, a lot of people on both sides share the same language, food, music, cinema, and literature! How are two the same people. May be people from east and west punjabs share somethings. Not for the rest of India. Sindhis are a miniscule minority in India. And the states are different. One is "Secular, Socialist Republic" and the other "Islamic Republic". And I believe, Indian Hindus hardly have any relatives in Pakistan. Thu 18 Feb 2010 18:11:42 GMT+1 yoss Indian and Pakistani interests actually converge in this charade. Pakistan will not stop being a state sponsor of terror and India will not give an inch on Kashmir.Yet this on again , off again perennial talking achieves different objectives for the two sides. For Pakistan, it keeps the kashmir plot boiling and provides a ready answer at any time if someone wishes to distract attention from domestic issues. It gives the appearance of action to the populace, provides room for much rhetoric but since no one really expects a solution , you dont have to do anything. For India, the terrorists with their terrorising and ethnic cleansing over decades have changed the Kashmiri demographics significantly. To the west a democratic solution seems a no brainer but that doesnt account for the fact that the partition of India in 1947 was not a democratic process at all. Pakistan landed up with the NWFP which more than likely would have opted to join India had anyone asked the people. So India cannot go in for a referendum now or ever in Kashmir. Accepting Kashmir independence is not acceptable to India and nor is simply walking away. Talking assuages the conscience of the US. And having a peprpetual bogeyman in Pakistan also suits the politics in India and makes it a convenient whipping boy. Pakistan will not be stable and will possibly become another Talibanized state within 10 years. And that while not ideal suits India. The US and Israel will do everything in their power to control the nukes and if Pakistan's strategic depth is compromised by a heavy Indian footprint in Afghanistan, Pakistan is effectively contained and will continue to slide into anarchy. But the threat of Pakistan and china will keep military spending high serving a number of domestic constituencies. A Kashmir solution on the other hand serves no one. Thu 18 Feb 2010 17:56:27 GMT+1 purhze Even though talks between India and Pakistan are usually like talks between Chamberlain and Hitler - in that they simply postpone the eventual conflict - there is a more immediate problem for any Indian leader. And that is the fact that indulging in talks provokes terrorist attacks in India. Since PM Singh, NSA Menon and others in favour of this policy of "talks" run the risk of being called to account as to why they are not culpable for the murder of Indian citizens by the Indian courts, they have a short and diminishing window to get any results. Thu 18 Feb 2010 16:53:34 GMT+1 sasidhar @Brainwashedbaby, Kashmir is an integral part of India, It was never nor would be a part of pakistan. There were no killings before 1989 and Kashmir was peaceful like anyother state in India., the onus of all the killings lies on Pakistan as it has sent these taleban into India to "liberate" it since 1989. But now, Kashmiris may not like Indians but they would soon(already?) realised that they are safe in India than in Pakistan, so the result a peaceful kashmir that we see now a days. Thu 18 Feb 2010 16:30:31 GMT+1 sasidhar Pakistan belives that India offered the talks as it is fearful of losing its influence in Afganistan after US administration offered talks with Taleban., As soon as this statement made it is now clear for ISI and Pakistani Army that NATO is going to leave Afganistan verysoon. Until now as India's influence was increasing day by day in Afganistan, Pakistani administration was begging India to talk and kept saying the non-state actors are out of its control and it is helpless and cannot prevent further attacks originating from its soil, But now ever since the statement was made by the US, it has completely taken a 'U' turn and started showing its real face (like in 90's) and the state actors and non state actors started giving inflammatory speeches. Pakistani prime minister Mr Gilani gave a vicious speech recenly in a rally stating that India is now forced to talk as their case is stronger and they forced India to talk as Indian fears are baseless after mumbai attacks, same was done by Hafeez Saeed yesterday.... The fact that Iliyas Kashmiri mentioned the names of Pune, Kanpur and Lucknow as potential targets on the 4th of Feb and bomb blast took place on the 15th of Feb only shows who is behind these attacks, they might be carried out by Indian mujahideen but the brains planning and orders are clearly given by LET. Now pakistan can come and sit on the table for talks stating that they are also victims of the terrorism. But the author has failed to recognise the differance between the terrorism in India and in Pakistan, Terrorism in India started ever since soviets left Afganistan which is sponsored funded and trained by Pakistani Army, their bases are located in Azad Kashmir and till today they are free to move, free to hold rallies, free to recruit, operate and infiltrate into India in winters. Where as terrorism in Pakistan is a fight for the Nuclear weapons by Pakistani Taleban, Pakistani Army is acting on them as they threatening the sovernighty of pakistan. So out of this three dimensions of terrorist organisations two are sponsored and supported by Pakistani army (Afgan taliban who kills NATO, LET JEM JUD who will Indians), the third dimension is pakistani taleban who are looking forward to take over pakistan and nuclear weapons. Pakistani Army and its civilian governments fail to recognise the ultimate agenda of all these groups is to Islamize the whole South Asia and Europe, they are all now acting under an umbrella of Al-Qaeda, So Pakistan is not really a victim of terror, it is playing with fire and getting hurt in its game. Hamid Gul a senior retired ISI officer states that NATO has lost its war in Afganistan and the future of Afganistan is in the hand of Taleban, even if NATO negotiates with taliban in Afganistan and leaves the country, what would it do with Paksitani Taliban are they going to broker a power sharing between Zardari, ISI, Pakistani Military and Taleban. Last time when Manmohan Singh and Musharaff came close to an agreement, Musharaff lost the power, now when something positive is starting Zardari is in trouble again. Even if Zardari gives any concessions to India it is clear that the Army will take over. The only solution is pakistan should stop using Afgans and Kashmiris as strategic assests., it should renounce terrorism as a state policy for good, then a peace with India can be made and NATO can win Afganistan, or else it wont be long before all the countries US UK Russia India push Pakistan into a corner to dicate their terms. Thu 18 Feb 2010 16:13:38 GMT+1 babynotbrainwashed India is commiting crimes in Kashmir against defenceless civilians everyday for the past decades. Why should Pakistan talk to them? There are many acounts, reports of sexual harassment, rape, torture against Kashmiris by India. Why should anybody talk to this terrorist country? As long as they dont give freedom to Kashmir, there will always be attacks on Indians. And it's sad. Civilians end up paying the price of the Government's folly to still not understand that Kashmiris dont want to be part of India! I wish all this could stop but I dont see any hopes for it. Thu 18 Feb 2010 13:40:05 GMT+1 vivek and its apalling that mj akbar (for whom i still have immense respect) shud be saying we must be doing this and that with pakistan, though i myself am in for talks and peace and cultural exchanges and multiple-point agenda and blah blah but how long should the lion sit in the den and wait for the catch, all of this is true for a nation that thinks sense and not for nations that provide solace to 'gunmen' and who spread jihad and spoil the name of a wonderful religion and spoil the culture of a wonderful nation and spread terrorism like a diseaseam saddened a lot by the downright stupidity of a few people who have made such mistakes that we are dsicussing this and not the beauty of a nation like pakistan Thu 18 Feb 2010 10:46:32 GMT+1 vivek @garth: it seems u are seriously out of content and accusations to be still harping on language and hegemony, should i be giving u more tips to pull us down..@soutik: this one disappointed me big time for reasons aplenty@indiablogger815: am very glad that u wrote that, time and again I have heard of this bias, why on earth terrorists are called gunmen and militants and that we should be talking, no powerful nation talks, then why should we?India and Pakistan is too complex a problem to be solved thru blogs, we shouldn’t be 'talking of talks' (Pakistan is a downright disappointment in every matter) but of how India alone should straighten up things.India itself is reeling with a multitude of problems, we have the Naxals raging a war, we have to dirt-free our civic society (for bettering the HDI) and to top it all we have a huge population of an insecure minority to appease (which a confused and not-so-competent government is doing with mixed results).I don’t know what will talks lead to and whom should we be talking to? Don’t tell me with leaders of a nation who argue even with their lawyers.Though the onus should be falling on both the nations, India as the more powerful and richer nation should understand the sick psyche of Pakistan and do something meaningful and fast. We shouldn’t be talking but going ahead with a zero-corruption ramp-up of our own intelligence, policing and alertness.Pakistan is notorious for listening to a selected few, (read the USA and China) who have their own myriad equations with South-Asia for their own silly benefits.Its known how Pakistan harps back on Kashmir time and again (and their ‘analysts’ talk of eight-point or eighty-point agenda) and thus our media (everybody calm down, a hawk is a powerful bird capable of knocking down many, so it shouldn’t be seen so offensive) shouldn’t be accused (for a change) of trying to stall the talks.Pakistan am sure is in for more troubles ahead, after all, how long can a nation cast shadows on regional peace with its agenda of hatred.Am very angry with the incompetence of our nation for having failed to deal with a nation full of rots (I still maintain that most of Pakistan is a beautiful country with beautiful people, much like us) in an effective way that is the characteristic of a sturdy and adamant nation.What we need is a haul-up of our own society, our own failures and our own set-backs. We need to make ourselves audible.Talks are nonsense, the only solution is to straighten up our backs, come out all-powerful and teach the world a word or two about peace and regional control.And Kashmir is a complex issue and I don’t see India being transparent with it (I only say India because Pakistan’s point-of-view on every issue is worth throwing in garbage, so I don’t bring it up at all) for another many years. Am only worried about the stances India takes, the signal must be stronger.We are not here to be romancing with cultural exchanges, that would continue I assure u, with hiccups of course, am taking of the course of history, India must cleanse itself of internal problems, emerge out a stronger nation and do something with its troubled nation which am sure can do nothing for itself and I pity. Thu 18 Feb 2010 10:33:28 GMT+1