Comments for en-gb 30 Tue 30 Jun 2015 20:03:28 GMT+1 A feed of user comments from the page found at aervac2 Some good points from someone who obviously knows his/her Irish history, and while on the point of education in Ireland it is useful to point out that it was only relatively recently that the ROI have begun to recognise its war dead from WW1 & WW2. In denial, the process of Irish education largly undertaken by direction of the Catholic clergy where they conveniently forgot that thousands of Irish died in the wars and the memory of such was for many years swept conveniently under the carpet as well as being air-brushed from the histoy books in favour of highlighting the 1916 Dublin rising and the subsequent Irish civil war era. Far from me to suggest that the Irish are slow learners but I am glad that at last that the people of Ireland have been awakened to the deceptive teachings of the church state. Thu 04 Jun 2009 12:10:51 GMT+1 ferrousideblogger Mark Easton's article on abuse within the Irish Roman Catholic Church was measured and appropriate. I agree with the vast majority of what other bloggers have said. Notwithstanding that we mustn't be self-righteous and awful things happen in all societies, such institutional violence on this scale has, thankfully, never happened in Britain. It is no coincidence that Britain has been free from the oppressive influence of the Catholic Church since 1558. Mark talks about the "deferential attitude " to the Church in Ireland. This, thankfully, is on the wain and hopefully will never return. If I could briefly digress from the child abuse question, that deference to the Church by both the Catholic people of Ireland and inevitably their government was responsible for the shielding of Roman Catholic priests from prosecution on charges of terrorism in Ireland and in one high profile case, protection of a priest from extradition to Germany on serious charges of terrorism there on behalf of the IRA. In fact it is well known that priests were both involved directly in terrorism during the recent "troubles" and have a long history of involvement in violence going back at least to 1641. Is it any wonder that the Ulster people in the 19th and 20th centuries resisted absorption into a "priest-ridden" society often with the slogan "Home Rule is Rome Rule". Whether it is violence to children or to non-conforming adults within their grasp, the Roman Catholic Church is hard to stop. The best weapons are: widespread education, good communications (be thankful for the British media!)and eternal vigilance. As for those misguided Anglican clerics who champion union of the Church of England with Rome, maybe these revelations will slow them down: it is just a pity that the English laity are not more active in so doing Tue 02 Jun 2009 13:59:31 GMT+1 United Dreamer Organisations that take responsibility for the care of children will always draw abusers of children. This is something that started to become known in the 70s and 80s in state run institutions. Its a shame that the catholic church protected these abusers on the basis they were priests/brothers who strayed off the path rather than the predators that some of the abusers were. It shows a certain element of arrogance that they felt and to an extent still feel they know best without taking the lessons learned from state run institutions. The church should hand over those serious abusers to the state despite the oft mentioned sanctity of the confessional. These criminals are hugely undermining the good work that the church does. Mon 01 Jun 2009 15:03:16 GMT+1 xavierbloggz The Catholic church appears to have an extremely poor record in terms of sexual abuse of children. Just look at the huge compensations that were paid in the USA for this abuse. Ireland is beginning to break the mold of church deference it's a hard one to crack. I live in a Catholic dominated country where priests are known to preach that homosexuality is a disease. Also it's well known that the prieata enjoy a healthy sexual lifestyle. Many are extremely rich having no dioubt received 'donations' from families in death which appears to end up in the priests hands rather than the church. There is I am sure an underlying paedophile element and certainly sexual abuse but the lid is kept firmly in place aided by ignorant people who believe unquestionably. Wed 27 May 2009 17:01:52 GMT+1 alexandercurzon Its Not Just The Catholics try the Methodists and the Church Of Englandsponsored INSTITUTIONS/SCHOOLS... Sun 24 May 2009 18:31:20 GMT+1 aervac2 While it has been interesting to read most of the comments that have come out of this blog report. Even as I write there are chilling new revelations coming out of Ireland since the publication of the Ryan Commission report was released last week suggesting that it was a complete whitewash of what institutionalised abuse really has been going on. Representitives of around two thousand surviving victims of cruel sexual abuse have rejected the report as a state cover-up of what really happened against children in the religious run institutions over many years, describing them as crimes similar to those witnessed in Nazi German concentration camps. The Catholic church has been made largely responsible for the abuses and the victims maintain that only a few of their stories have so far been listened to in a bid by the church and state to minimalise compensation. The victims of institutional abuse are now seeking help from outside of the Irish state for a Human Rights Commission to be set up of UN standing. Sun 24 May 2009 13:49:31 GMT+1 aervac2 I think that what we are talking about here is institutionalised abuse rather than just a few sick individuals, by which I mean something seriosly wrong that has been going on for a very long time and had become almost the norm in certain circles. We tend to put our trust in the MP's we elect to office or the men/women who teach our kids, so this becomes even more annoying when these people misuse their position, breaking the trust we have in them and inevitably we become the victims too. Sat 23 May 2009 19:41:09 GMT+1 nolemonade I too have wondered about the "would you do it as well in the right circumstances?" angle mentioned by posters, both here and in the MP expenses fraud discussions. This "would you do it as well" scam is now one of the final straws being clutched by the wretched Brown and the other guilty parties as they sink in the quicksand that is MPs' expenses fraud revelation.I don't think everyone behaves in such a simplistic way. I believe there is a certain inadequate, tainted "criminal" class that is attracted to institutions like the church, parliament, freemasonry and many others. Sadly, because these inadequate losers are so strongly attracted to say, the church and government, a lot of them are going to be successful in their bids to join up. It may well be a genetic problem - and potentially one with a cure. It may well be that this genetic explanation has been proven and subsequently suppressed. Nothing surprises me any more about how low our government apparatus is prepared to sink to cling on to their addictive drug of "power".. For this reason I am strongly in favour of a ruthless 100% purge to rid such institutions of the last perverted loser. The fact that there will be "collateral damage" is an inevitable but fully-justified by-product of an essential process. Sat 23 May 2009 13:42:34 GMT+1 Braeburn8 The predilection of those intent on aberrant behaviour is to find ways to arrive at any destination that allows them to carry our their practices in relative secrecy?Should a screening system be developed that identifies the individuals with the aberration? What then? What does the 'normal' society do with those identified?Are we required to select people at birth that ensures 'normal', behaviour? If successful that would move the measurement of 'normal', behaviour of society towards the opposite extreme, whatever that might be.Where are the people so driven by aberrant behaviour now? How are they exercising their needs? How will we now find them and what are they now doing to others to satisfy their psychotic needs? How do we discover where they are now and what they are doing?How do we curb their unwanted behaviours?The implication 'that we would all behave in such aberrant ways given the opportunity and a guarantee of secrecy', is of deep concern, and is impossible to accept by those of us who feel revolted and can be physically sick when required to consider these matters in any detail.All of the actions to date by society have so far only achieved a displacement of the people so driven by psychosis.Where are they now and what are they doing? Remains an unanswered and disturbing question. Sat 23 May 2009 07:25:27 GMT+1 CC Baxter The Catholic Church believes that their members are being watched all the time and that they will be judged for their actions.However, to those of us who do not believe in their imaginary friend, it looks like no oversight and getting off scott free! Given that studies have proved that those who believe they are being watched will behave in a more moral way. I can only conclude that the guilty priests and nuns don't believe in God either. Fri 22 May 2009 13:29:25 GMT+1 aervac2 Unfortunately the most recent disclosures in Ireland are just a compilation of what we have known for years and brushed under the carpet in an effort to protect the religious establishment. Throwing more money at it is not going to solve the problem for hundreds of young people that have died as a result of abuse and inhuman treatment. Justice for the dead will never be achieved until every childs death is properly investigated by the police (garda) and the people responsible brought to answer for their crimes. Unfortunately we know that this will probably never happen because the bishops are untimately responsible for what goes on in their own diocese. But it is worth noting that in other countries crimes to humanity are dealt with through the UN courts and I don't see much difference here. However in a country where the religious orders still hold sway the cover up will unfortunately continue with the occasional drip feed of new reports over a long time to come and until all of the victims and perpetrators have passed on.It doesn't matter how many government reports they produce, justice will never be seen to be achieved as far as the victims are concerned. Fri 22 May 2009 11:34:27 GMT+1 alvinalarf We create an institution that attracts people who don't want to be members of society as we know it, they can remain single without it raising any suspicion as to their sexual preferences, they get to wear a uniform and we encourage our children to believe that they are right and good. Is it really such a surprise that this environment is attractive to those people who enjoy the "darker" things in life? Of course one of the reasons Priests can't get married is to prevent the church losing out on his valuables if he dies before his wife (this is less relevant nowadays but in the twelfth century (?) when the rules were changed it was big bucks) So is it a case of cash for morals? Fri 22 May 2009 10:27:43 GMT+1 alexandercurzon MORE INSTITUTIONAL DECAYI went to a minor english public school and was subjected to 10 years of institutional abuse (ALL WAYS).ITS TIME THAT DREADFUL SYSTEM WAS EXPOSED WHILE JUSTICE CAN STILL BE DONE Thu 21 May 2009 19:01:41 GMT+1 newspaceman Comment 10:"So Newspaceman1, we watch and always have in different contexts--remember that All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people do nothing a powerful quote and from a politician to boot but an Irish one no less."I do my best, but feel that evil is triumphing at present, or about to anyway. At least when I die, I will feel that I tried.In a decent society, the members would not need monitoring.cheers Thu 21 May 2009 18:14:22 GMT+1 newspaceman Noddy, comment 2 :"actually, newspaceman, we are all watched, all the time, by each other. That is how a socity moderates the behaviour of its members."Thus our society and it's (your's) watching methodology has surely failed us, indeed does not work Noddy.You seem to agree with Mark's jist that further observation of each other will make things better. It will just, in my humble opinion, make those who wish to indulge in anti-social practices even more devious.And so on...Community Criminal, Yep, Orwell told us this in Animal Farm5: little keeefer, you wrote:Noddy Gnome is right, in normal life our behaviour is modified by the people around us and our actions, at least in dealings with others, are transparent.MP's are exempt I take it.cheeers Thu 21 May 2009 18:04:26 GMT+1 delminister its criminal and just shows the power of the catholic church in avoiding problems by covering up its employees miss deeds and bullying governments into doing things its way, humanity deserves freedom from restraint and honest answers for why when where and who.justice has to be served. Thu 21 May 2009 17:31:39 GMT+1 Flexiworkingmother I was abused as a child in my own middle class perfect nuclear family home. Large scale abuse in institutions attracts press attention because of its sheer scale and because of the salacious nature of the reporting about the otherwise trusted perpetrators. Abuse happens across the social spectrum and in whatever environment targetted children find themselves. Children whose stories can be corroborated by others find themselves heard and believed eventually. Many don't have even that amount of justice. You can't point your finger at the Catholic church any more than you can at ordinary looking families - and parents and other adults have betrayed their children by denying that the abuse took place just as much as the Catholic church have done. The denial is sometimes even harder to bear for the victims than the abuse.And I am so tired of hearing about the criminal justice system and what should happen to perpetrators. No one ever seems to think about a victim justice system and what should happen to us. How much public money is spent on perpetrators, on their psychotherapy and rehabilitation? How much money is NOT spent on the welfare of the abused?It is incredibly difficult to come forward even as an adult and disclose childhood sexual abuse. You can so easily be tarnished as hyper-sensitive, tainted, damaged for life even by well-meaning people. What we need to combat abuse is a system that allows the abused to take back some of the power that has been so wrongfully taken away from them. We need decent, well run properly funded counselling resources, better GP and health service worker training, better training for judges, social services and the police and greater emphasis put on the successful recovery and resilience of the many people out there who have managed to come to terms with truly heinous crimes. For as long as victims' needs aren't addressed there isn't really a criminal justice system worth speaking of. Thu 21 May 2009 17:31:24 GMT+1 jon112uk I'm a little nervous about the assumption that smaller institutions are safer from abuse.Example...I can remember the care of older adults being in big hospitals 20 years ago. Matron could walk through the door any minute, student nurses regularly blew the whistle, managers knew their jobs were on the line and had an 'open door' policy for anyone who wanted to report abuse.Now old people are cared for in hundreds of small, isolated, privately run care homes. How do people surpervise these? On those occassions 'fly on the wall' cameras have got in, we know abuse is still occuring, but who would normally uncover it? Would the manager/owner encourage reporting which might close down their (lucrative) business?I would suggest combatting abuse is more about organisational culture and the managerial response to whistleblowing rather than the size of the building. Thu 21 May 2009 15:35:53 GMT+1 Doolf Congratulations a very fair and thoughtful article, you resisted the usual easy target of knocking the catholic church and broadened the whole scope of the problem. Whatever the instituition, where there is a lack of accountabilty or a culture of deference, abuses will take place . Britain with it history of deference to the monarchy and the the great and the good is not immune to these abuses. Shame we have to repeatedly re-learn this lesson every decade or so. Thu 21 May 2009 14:08:35 GMT+1 John Coyle So, we are all potentially to blame for anything and everything ,eh? Great logic. No chance of pinning blame where it truly belongs when we have this kind of cop-out logic ; great hiding place.Nothing would ever be cleaned up and justice never served unless those specifically guilty take all of the blame for their own actions without sharing it around. John C. Thu 21 May 2009 13:14:07 GMT+1 stanilic This is all a terrible shame and my heart goes out to the poor souls who still suffer from the effects of such awful abuse. They need the wicked to be punished so they can see truth in their own lives. Sadly, this will not happen and they will be left to their tears. There is no justice!How do people become so abusive? They are not naturally evil so why did it happen? Might this be a case of the abused becoming abusers within an institutional structure that permitted a culture of abuse? Given that we are talking about a long period of time this is quite possible.How do we go forward? I do not think inspection regimes work either but I do think that public access within reason is the best solution. The danger lies in the closed doors, professionals protecting each other, and institutions protecting their own interests. Open, transparent and above board seems to be what is required. Thu 21 May 2009 12:04:40 GMT+1 aervac2 Lets face facts, all of these kids were somebody's children and the trust that was placed by parents into the hands of the church was to care for them during difficult circumstances. Instead we see something even worse than the Guantanamo 'Delta' camp and more comparable with Belsen. In Ireland the Industrial Schools are no more but still the stain exists as long as the so called Christian Brotherhood exists. Isn't it about time therefore that they were disbanded and the stain removed from society altogether. Thu 21 May 2009 11:28:49 GMT+1 Zootmac Cripes. Now I can't even vote for Nun of the Above. Thu 21 May 2009 11:16:07 GMT+1 theyareliars Let us not forget that these betrayers of children have also built up *massive* fortunes off the back of this. Another blogger has already pointed out that, if this horror had been perpetrated by a private company, there would have been nowhere for them to run as far as justice finally having a chance to prevail. However, because we are legally obliged to doff our caps and show 'respect' to a multi-national, global institution based on a mass delusion, its leadership is allowed to simply tut-tut about 'bad-apples' and 'terrible shame'. Apologising only on the basis that they can't possibly be held accountable for the actions of these individuals, regardless of the suspect nature of the hierarchy of power. Society is then left to reap what these wicked institutions have sown, small children, beaten into submission, who grow into adults with numerous, often untreated, mental health problems.Complex PTSD is only now being recognised as the terrible result of dysfunctional childhoods. It manifests itself in any number of symptoms which, depending on the physiological health of the victim over time, will present in such a changing manner that they will often never understand what is really wrong with them. Borderline Personality Disorder is the main symptom, individuals who cannot control their emotional state, suffering symptoms from anxiety and panic attacks all the way through to murderous rage, most often presented when they are intoxicated as alcohol is recognised as exacerbating BPD. Only recently Jack P. Shonkoff wrote an excellent article on the damage to society done by, what he accurately labelled 'Toxic Stress', in children. Thu 21 May 2009 10:05:17 GMT+1 aervac2 Thankyou carefreesw6, one can only say that both your father and his brother were brave men in attempting to get their message heard. The irony of it is that if it were a priest who set fire to himself then the Catholic church would probably make him a saint. Thu 21 May 2009 09:31:59 GMT+1 carefreesw6 I watched the news last night unaware the report was due to be written. This morning i see there is a chapter put aside to Letterfrack.My father died nearly 20 years ago. I never understood why he would never go back to Ireland until a manuscript of a novel, written by his brother, was found some 5 plus years ago. I received a call informing me about the soon to be published book asking my permission for it's publication. Until that day i never knew my father had been to Letterfrack. He had been there a number of years. His brother complained to the authorities throughout the 50's and 60's but was ignored. the Christian brothers denied it. He wrote the manuscript hoping to find justice. He failed and in turn set fire to himself on Hampstead Heath.I can't think of blame today. I simply feel huge sadness for those that endured all the pain. Thu 21 May 2009 07:53:41 GMT+1 John1948 To go back to Mark's original point - in a democracy how do we control those powerful institutions which control our lives?With Parliament the principle is simple. Set up a system in which local MPs are loyal to their constituents and attend to their needs above loyalty to a party whose tendecy they wish to follow. You could even have PR with a group of say 10 MPs (of differing inclinations)representing an area. The PM would be chosen by Parliament after the election and could chose ministers from any party. Election would be every four years. An upper house with genuine power would be elected on a similar basis with elections in the middle of the lower house's term.The financial system cannot be a system in which its operators encourage people to borrow beyond their means. In particular risk management is not left to the risk takers. For this you need more lay people involved. Don't give me the 'only experts can understand it' line. For years I thought that the effect of lending more money, pushes up prices, which needs more money to be advanced etc was unsustainable. I got 'O' level economics 35 years ago. The experts can seek out the dodgy deals, but you also need a bit of common sense which is often hard to do from the inside.I do not know enough about the Roman Catholic church to suggest how it can avoid the excesses and corruption. My question to Catholics is - Look at the structure of your church, look at how power is devolved, look at the different levels of authority, look how attitudes can be changed and ask yourself is that acceptable? This is a question about structure not whether anything needs to be changed. Once you have done something about the first question, then you can tackle any changes in policy and action that are needed.My solutions involve putting power back to the people. For that we need a free press. And here is the biggest danger. All newspapers are under financial pressure. They are finding difficlties to employ the large numbers of journalists needed to root out and explain the major failings of our institutions. A lot of TV reporting fails; for instance we see the posturing of PMQs, but we are rarely given any explanation of what the opposing policies are or receive any explanation of how they might affect us.Many Blogs are ridiculous - the level of debate on Nick Robinson's site reminds me of those few bits of Big Brother I have seen. I feel sorry for those who are trying to raise a serious point. So my final point is that if we want to ensure that power is not abused we, the public, need to be better informed, more coherent, ask more questions and let our views be known. There are many good and decent MPs, bankers and priests; they need to know that the public knows what they are trying to do and actively supports them in their efforts to bring about change. Thu 21 May 2009 07:06:43 GMT+1 MightyWhitey1 Why is it taking so long to identify the systematic wrongs of the Catholic institution. I live uncomfortably by being privy to a friend's pain in what i believe to be a potential systematic " Stolen Generation " of young babies taken by Nuns from single mothers at birth in Poland and then put into foster care.In the case I know about , twins , now , if alive ,aged approximately 35 , are likely living with the belief that their mother and father are dead. The extended family has lost contact with these children and the mother lives in another country - an alcholic . Presumably the greater family [ mother / father's parents , siblings etc ] is involved in some way with this. Certainly those that spoke with me live affected by this decision.In today's World this concealment of the truth and lack of compassion is unacceptable to those involved.For this to occur I believe that a much more systematic process of forced adoption. I do urge further enquiries into the conduct of the Church more generally to bring some peace to those effected by these sometimes shocking events of the past. Thu 21 May 2009 06:06:11 GMT+1 aervac2 Several of the reports about Irish abuses blame the state for turning a blind eye. The fact is that these abuses have continued for far longer than the formation of the Irish state, dating back into the nineteenth century when the Christian Brothers set up the Industrial Schools. Wed 20 May 2009 23:52:12 GMT+1 ukldy61 This post has been Removed Wed 20 May 2009 23:48:31 GMT+1 Chryses It is interesting to note that while these institutions were funded and at least in theory regulated by the government, and that while the Catholic Church agreed in 2001 to pay over £100M into a special State fund for victims of abuse, it is the latter which is excoriated, and not the former. Wed 20 May 2009 23:05:38 GMT+1 aervac2 The so called 'God Squad' were responsible for much of Irelands child abuses. Most visitors to the scenic Connemara village of Letterfrack have no idea that a graveyard exists in the village with the marked graves of over one hundred young boys who were systematically abused and murdered by the Christian Brothers over a period of more than sixty years. It is worth reading (google) some of the accounts of the Letterfrack Industrial School for an eye opening experience, such as: If you visit the graveyard, it will surely break your heart. Wed 20 May 2009 22:25:12 GMT+1 LondonSanMiguel I agree wtih many of the comments above, esp. astroPBR41.You have to ask, what right did the Christian Bros. think they had to going to the courts to request anonymity?...if not to protect their own. Surely not in the interests of "truth and reconciliation" - there has been no attempt at reconciliation in these cases. Even the Pope himself claimed diplomatic immunity to avoid going to court - that says it all.Listen to the victims and their representatives. They are the important people here, not the apologists for the catholic church or the Irish state, with much can just hear them: "awful period in our history", "must learn from our mistakes", etc etc. Just not damn good enough - how many lives have been destroyed? How many brought to justice? Many people knew about the abuse - not to the extent that we know now - but the ordinary decent Irish people were helpless due to the power that the church and state had over them: in small communities you didn't work unless the church said you could and 40 or 50 years ago that meant you didn't eat or care for your family. That's were the power was, the corruption was.A truely dreadful period in the history of Ireland - and beyond...698,000 hits on Google tonight for "Catholic priests abuse". My heart goes out to those abused - no-one was there for you when it mattered. Wed 20 May 2009 22:16:00 GMT+1 pittsburghkennedy Noddy Gnome, I agree with you. Every society has had to confront the issue of what its people do, how we do it and with whom we do it. The watch has increased in recent decades and we are left with little privacy as a result but we don't have much choice. What matters though is whether we ACT to stop unacceptable behavior. This is pure deviance made all the more evil because the victims are children. Still, we cannot assume that deviance arises spontaneously in certain individuals and then forces society to take some sort of action. Deviance is not a characteristic of persons or a quality of their behavior. Instead, it is the result of human interaction--maladjustments, inhibitions, compulsions. It is created, maintained, and revoked in social context. So we as the "society" do indeed have to watch and act to keep some semblance of civility.Whatever we do, we do it within an ever-changing context. World history from early societies to today shows how we have adjusted our morals. So Newspaceman1, we watch and always have in different contexts--remember that All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people do nothing a powerful quote and from a politician to boot but an Irish one no less. The cast of players are perpetrators-deviants, collaborators-looking the other way and the common bystander, the fulcrum that decides the direction of the outcome. Unfortunately here, it seems they felt powerless most likely because standing up to it would have involved indicting the church. Seems the good guys lost a good fight here. Wed 20 May 2009 21:56:19 GMT+1 jr4412 Mark Easton writes "Priest or financier, politician or nun - the saddest conclusion from the stories of the past few days and months is that when people have power and are confident they are not being watched, no-one can be trusted."I disagree. to my thinking "the saddest conclusion" is that there is no prosecution of the perpetrators, no justice for victims and families. how many of these priests/nuns/social workers/etc are still alive and live quiet lives as "respected" members of their repective communities? have any been named and shamed, have any gone to jail? didn't think so.. Wed 20 May 2009 21:47:56 GMT+1 RPMalone There is much to alarm us about the 'abuse scandal in Ireland's children's homes'. But the extraordinary and flawed decision to leave the names of culprits out of the report and not to take the findings to the judiciary has grave and lasting consequences. Naturally the victims who number in their thousands are devestated, hurt and angry. But there are darker consequences. Such an omission, will mean that those responsible for these abuses remain at large and continue to be a menace to vulnerable children wherever they are. It is not enough for the church to apologise. An apology without true repentance means little at all. Until the church opens its books, its accounts, its records on this dark chapter of the personnel who staffed these demonic institutions there will be no peace. I suspect a private prosecution is brewing. I hope the victims who have pressed for this report will now have the courage and perseverance to press for justice. Wed 20 May 2009 21:32:33 GMT+1 astroPBR41 Although the scale of the abuse and the complicity of the Irish state is shocking, it frankly does not surprise me that if you put young children in the care of sexually-dissatisfied, celebrate priests, monks, nuns etc, then sexual abuse will result. Obvious isn't it?? Well, isn't it???But what I feel like exploding about is why did the Christian Brothers succeed in securing anonymity for their members? This is quoted as being one of the most significant reasons for the report preserving the anonymity of all those implicated, even, get this, even if they've been successfully prosecuted. By what logic did the courts agree to this? Surely, this shows that there is still an institutional deference awarded to the church in Ireland. If that's the case, then how can Ireland hold it's head high and say that it's putting its house in order?Mark - why didn't you highlight the anonymity as the most scandalous aspect of this whole affair - most scandalous because it's the most contemporary significant failure to address the whole issue. You didn't mention it at all in your analysis. Wed 20 May 2009 21:13:56 GMT+1 fourniers I cannot recall who said it, but as I recall it, the comment was "Power Corrupts and Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely" How many examples do we need of poachers turned gamekeepers before we accept that self regulation does not work.Quite how we can change that though is a massive question. Those responsible for and having the power to bring about regulatory changes have mindsets that will only engage with those of their own disciplines. History tells us that abuses of power and influence have always dominated affairs. Human nature will not afford any change to that. That applies whether it be, religion, politics, commerce, finance, industry, health care provision or even education, the greatest amongst the culprits being multi-national companies, such as the petro-chemical industries who constantly massage their markets in order to maintain their world domination. Wed 20 May 2009 20:51:29 GMT+1 littlekeefer Newspaceman, Noddy Gnome is right, in normal life our behaviour is modified by the people around us and our actions, at least in dealings with others, are transparent.These abuse scandals, including the ones in England and Wales, often took place in remote settings where the children had no say whatsoever or were disbelieved. They were in fact closed institutions. Children are better off going to mainstream schools, for all their faults, and having friends they can confide in. Wed 20 May 2009 20:49:31 GMT+1 Grumpledad Horrifying and hypocritical, but perhaps inevitable in a priest-ridden culture that operates within closed doors, with no external monitoring or controls. Perhaps the attitude of the Church authorities was "well - it never did ME any harm?" Wed 20 May 2009 19:56:23 GMT+1 John Ellis New World Order funny that.power of anykind will fall into abuse as you so rightly state maybe we are seeing an end to the old world order.?. But the problem is that the core of it all those with wealth as with our house of lords will still have the final say, even if this goverment is overthrown the ruling few will still be there. If the catholic Church falls from grace the vatican will still be there. You can look over someones sholder but will only ever see what they choose to let you see. Wed 20 May 2009 19:31:09 GMT+1 Noddy_Gnome @1: actually, newspaceman, we are all watched, all the time, by each other. That is how a socity moderates the behaviour of its members. It is behind closed doors, where the secrets lie that the problems really start.Although, possibly in your rareified atmosphere, the same rules don't apply. But remember, its not just others - in space, no one will hear YOU scream....... Wed 20 May 2009 19:26:08 GMT+1 newspaceman Great "new world order" logic here Mark:"the saddest conclusion from the stories of the past few days and months is that when people have power and are confident they are not being watched, no-one can be trusted.2So, we should all be watched, and that will resolve the problems with society Is that your insinuation ?, it is how it seems.cheers Wed 20 May 2009 18:41:48 GMT+1