Comments for en-gb 30 Wed 20 Aug 2014 14:59:51 GMT+1 A feed of user comments from the page found at thefrogstar 322 allmymarbles,I found you some better local photos at this link: I should have used the word "panorama" instead of "view". Panoramas are not easy to capture on camera (I only understood the phrase "big sky" went I first went to Wyoming and Montana). And the light is important (the sun most definitely doesn't shine all the time in NW England!).320 Happylaze,No I'm afraid I don't know.It's probably getting on for a decade since I was last there, though I still have relatives around Grange.My coastal view currently looks eastward from the other side of the Atlantic. Sunsets aren't as good, but sunrise is nice (for those awake at that time). Thu 30 Apr 2009 00:53:59 GMT+1 seanspa #322, marbles, at least you didn't say that you expected it to be foggy. Wed 29 Apr 2009 14:22:11 GMT+1 seanspa 321, Ed, I appreciate seeing the most beautiful part of the UK (ok, certainly England) where the sun plays a part in the picture. It always seemed overcast at best in Morecombe, or just up the road at Arnside, but I never noticed the rain in the lake district. And because of that, rain never bothers me now. Rain is fine. Umbrellas, though, are evil and should be banned. Wed 29 Apr 2009 14:20:59 GMT+1 RomeStu 310 marbles"What is a "log" in their own eye? I remember something about a mote, but I never a log."Matthew 7:5 says ... "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the mote out of your brother's eye."A log is a big bit of blind hypocrisy that causes single issue politics among other things. Wed 29 Apr 2009 13:08:04 GMT+1 allmymarbles 321, Ed.It looks like a lovely moonscape. I expected it to be green. Wed 29 Apr 2009 01:26:22 GMT+1 Hesiodos Frogstar & Ms Marbles,As Seen from Morecombe Tue 28 Apr 2009 17:05:11 GMT+1 happylaze 301 what part of America thread did you miss?we know about Islam. we are reminded erroneously all the time about it. So why not take some time to bash the christians. though catholic is a hard one for me to just knock for the sake of it.(as any other)Now americans I can knock them and their so called morality. all day and night.As to bullies. You don't thing the anti abortionists are bullies? or america? the catholic church . it never bullies?------------------------------Davefla I suggest you get a bit Jesus on the rest of the congregation.Ask them where they stand on the death penalty . Global warming. make them face the reality.(insert. I see marbles has said this." reclaim your church"good luck318 I like what you say here. well said.As a fence sitter. who has no faith but would be amused to see I was wrong.--------------Marbles. I'm with ed . I'm never ;) one to say things are certain. so I'll stick to unbelieving agnostic.I defend the churches only for the good they do. but do find the dogma (good film)( tiresome in the extreme. 301 302 exactly the type that seem to scare so many of us.Frogstar I did a kite flying demo on the bay once (keeping an eye out for them killer tidal returns)Holker hall's up there . I was wondering yesterday about cumbria. I worked in a smithy there (can't remember where now) that was working on a big garden and house that was being built.(looked old etc). they had a roman pleasure or folly garden .One way doorways and revolving room in a grotto. Have you heard of it? If so what is that place called.I'm not sure but I think the owner got in trouble for not getting the right Planning permission, though to be honest the place was built well. Tue 28 Apr 2009 15:49:21 GMT+1 wings16f7 This post has been Removed Tue 28 Apr 2009 15:11:35 GMT+1 Davefla Allmymarbles re: #300Speaking out is good advice. I have been keeping my head down, but even doing that, I still don't feel I fit in with a conformist culture. So I might as well "raise a little hell."Even though I am a believer, I do sympathize with some of the atheists' exasperation with organized religion. I do not like to question the spirituality of others, however. I do feel that is very presumptuous to try to force your religion onto people; and, on the flip side, to dismiss out of hand the sincerity/depth/reality etc. . .of others' spiritual beliefs. Tue 28 Apr 2009 14:04:55 GMT+1 foxtrottango1 #301 Dinesh_Patel.The truth is (and many of you don't know the meaning of truth), if it wasn't for the BBC sponsoring these posts we wouldn't be discussing subjects the US government doesn't want it's citizens to discuss. Most of the US corporate national news media as well as the established fundamental dogma groups inside and outside of government supports that intrusion. The result is, most US citizen will jump at the chance to say something worldwide. We want the world to know not all of us are too stupid to believe what the government tell us. So don't knock it, Marbles 303.Paul Starobin of the National Journal stated that "in 2008, exit polls revealed 12% of the electorate or 15 MILLION VOTERS identified themselves as non-believers. That is bigger than the Hispanic vote (9%), the gay vote (4%) or the Jewish vote (2%) and it is competitive with the African American vote of (13%)".Is it any surprise why President Obama won the elections with a high margin? I know for a fact that most Hispanic males are not true Catholics, they just say it to please their wives or play the church's game of hiding their hypocrisy. The Catholic Church in America no longer has ability to convince the masses that to follow it's aged old practices is the proper thing to do. I expect some very drastic changes within the Catholic Church within the next few decades. Tue 28 Apr 2009 04:06:23 GMT+1 thefrogstar 315 allmymarbles,Morecambe is one of the run-down Lancashire (English) coast towns that can be more than a little bit depressing.However, when the sun shines and you turn your back on the town, the view across the bay to the hills of the Lake District is unparalleled in all England.Perhaps there's a religious metaphor in that.("I shall lift up mine eyes to the hills, whence cometh my strength...") Tue 28 Apr 2009 03:02:01 GMT+1 allmymarbles 313, thefrog.I had to look up Morecambe. It sounded African. Tue 28 Apr 2009 02:36:04 GMT+1 allmymarbles 313, thefrog."If I had been made to do catechism classes as well as church on Sundays, it would have been, well, cataclysmic."Who said I went to chruch on Sundays. We never went to church. And I wasn't made to go to catechism class. I did it to get out of my regular class on Wednesday afternoons and to find out what my supposed religion was all about. After I finished up the catechism class that was it for Catholicism, and religion in general. I think atheists are born, not made. I can remember one of those very rare Easters when we went to church. I was very young and when the priest gave his sermon (it was that fire-and-brimstone Fulton J. Sheen) and all the people were nodding in agreement I thought it was terrible that they were all lying. We were taught not to lie and here were all those adults - lying. Tue 28 Apr 2009 02:31:46 GMT+1 thefrogstar #265 allmymarbles, You have my sympathy.If I had been made to do catechism classes as well as church on Sundays, it would have been, well, cataclysmic.Fortunately I was spared because I went to a catholic school.When Morrissey sang "Everyday feels like Sunday", he struck a chord with me.(And that was before I ever lived in Morecambe....) Tue 28 Apr 2009 01:45:44 GMT+1 allmymarbles 311, Ed.I found when I took a philosophy class that the subject didn't interest me at all. The best thing about the class was the professor who said his main purpose was to have us develop our own philosophies. The books I read could each be summed up in one sentence. When Descartes said "Cogito ergo sum" he could have stopped right there. And, anyway, every child has that thought long before he ever hears of Descartes. As for Plato's Republic, I would rather go to purgatory than read it again. Plato spends a lot of time saying justice is each man doing what he is best at, or something like that. Again, one sentence would have done it. We had to write a term paper on a philosopher of our choosing. Mine was on someone rather looked down upon as being simplistic (I can't remember his name) who said happiness was the sum of separate joys - the more joys the more happiness. Made sense to me. I squeezed out five pages, double-spaced, and much to my amazement got an A. Gustave M., who sat next to me, got a B for his enormous treatise and looked furiously at my flimsy little paper. Since then it has been my philosophy to express myself in writing as succinctly as possible. Tue 28 Apr 2009 01:33:59 GMT+1 Hesiodos Motes and beams, but no coma. Mon 27 Apr 2009 23:58:31 GMT+1 allmymarbles 308, RomeStu.Thank you for correcting my spelling. After the mods passed it, I noticed it was wrong. Unfortunatley I write fast and never edit, so there are always typos and misspellings. Once I even had my hands on the wrong keys and something (czech?) found its way to the blog. (I liked that one.)What is a "log" in their own eye? I remember something about a mote, but I never a log. Mon 27 Apr 2009 23:31:48 GMT+1 allmymarbles 305. Ed.Anarchy has gone out of style. You were born too late. Lao Tsu (Tse?) seems to be describing a coma. Have I got that right? Mon 27 Apr 2009 23:13:15 GMT+1 RomeStu 306 marbles"(Hypocrates really annoy me.)"Was it something about his oath you took offense to?I have to admit that I believe the initial mis-spelling (hypocracy) was my own some weeks back. It was quickly picked up on (DC ?) and corrected.For the record ..... hypocrisy and hypocrite. (from the ancient greek for stage actor)Although I still like hypocracy best - definitely by me as government by lying politicians.PS marbles - pedantry aside, I agree 100% with your post. These fundamentalists should look to the log in their own eye .... as it says in some book somewhere. Mon 27 Apr 2009 23:13:03 GMT+1 RomeStu 305 ed"Those who know do not talk.Those who talk do not know"I'm not sure this brand of ancient wisdom is going to please many people on a blog! But then by saying that I prove that "I know nothing!" Mon 27 Apr 2009 23:03:51 GMT+1 allmymarbles 302, Ricram, futher to above.How many brothers and sisters do you have? I'll bet you come from a small family. How can that be if your parents are good Catholics? Maybe you have some work to do with your own family. Start by talking to your parents. (Hypocrates really annoy me.) Mon 27 Apr 2009 22:50:18 GMT+1 Hesiodos Ms Marbles, I could never be certain enough to be an Atheist, but I would love to be an Anarchist if only somebody would tell me the rules!Those who know do not talk.Those who talk do not know.Keep your mouth closed.Guard your senses.Temper your sharpness.Simplify your problems.Mask your brightness.Be at one with the dust of the Earth.This is primal union.He who has achieved this stateIs unconcerned with friends and enemies,With good and harm, with honor and disgrace.This therefore is the highest state of man.Lao Tzu Mon 27 Apr 2009 22:50:11 GMT+1 allmymarbles 302, Ricram.Does the government force Catholics to have abortions? Does the government force them to use contraceptives? What is your problem? It seems to me that people like you are bullies. You are trying to force everyone to adhere to your beliefs. Do what you want for yourselves, believe what you want, but don't try to bully us. Bully your own people - the Catholics who use contraception and practice abortion. There are plenty of them so you have a lot of work to do. Leave the rest of us alone. Mon 27 Apr 2009 22:38:16 GMT+1 allmymarbles 301, Dinesh. I am very familiar with Islam, having lived in the Middle East a very long time. I do not see Moslems as the crazed zealots depicted in the media, nor do the majority of my fellow bloggers. They are, for the most part, too sophisticated to fall for that propaganda. You will find a couple of rather nasty types, but that is about it, and we attack them when they get too annoying.Many of the people on this blog are atheists. I am one of them. The reason people like me lash out at Christian religions is because, through politics, they seek to force their beliefs on others. If we are silent on Islam it is because it does not intrude on us domestically. Mon 27 Apr 2009 22:28:36 GMT+1 Ricram82 President Obama leaves no room to budge for the Catholic Church and the followers of the church. His positions on abortion, religious values vs. modern values, are so one sided and hostile to the other that there is little a Catholic can do to reconcile belief with politics. Can a catholic condone abortion? No. Can catholic hospitals continue to function if doctors are now made to disobey the hypocratic oath and take life at will? No. The hospitals will no longer be free to practice their faith as an institution, and individuals are being ridiculed for their beliefs. The bible says to render unto Caeser, what is Caeser's and to God, what is God's. Catholics will not render to Obama what belongs to God, and that is their faith.The president has promised change, nothing will stop this mission. Catholics cannot play both sides. Mon 27 Apr 2009 21:35:03 GMT+1 Dinesh Patel The BBC ceases to amaze me, their anti-catholic stance is all to common. Never a good word to say about Americans or the Catholic church. Of course, when it comes to Islam the BBC hides in a little corner with its 'one must no offend approach'. The fashionable left loves to attack Christianity at every corner as it is a safe option. Now, talk of islam and you can be branded a racist, bigot, intolerant etc etc. Islam the fastest growing religion in the World. - But of course, according to the BBC we would should only be concerned with America and Christians. The BBC is a coward as it only attacks those who won't hit back. That's what I was taught bullies were called at School. Mon 27 Apr 2009 21:00:16 GMT+1 allmymarbles 299, Dave.One of the problems I have with the church-going is their hypocracy. Because they feel they should be moral (according to their denomination) they say all the right moral things. I was talking about this to an evangelical minister and he said the met with this constantly and didn't much like it, but that it went with the territory.Maybe you should speak out more. Mon 27 Apr 2009 19:07:06 GMT+1 Davefla Yes, allmy . . . I am finding it hard to understand how people can be so hardline and live in the real world. So maybe I better try to stick it out. But I feel like there is a certain rigidity of thought which is really stifling. I am struggling with this now. Mon 27 Apr 2009 18:45:32 GMT+1 allmymarbles 297, Dave.What you might also be meeting is hypocracy. These same people who purport to disagree with you practice birth control, for instance. To prove my point, as these hard-liners how many children they have. Mon 27 Apr 2009 18:32:51 GMT+1 Davefla As a lapsed Catholic I recently tried to return to the fold. I found the right wing of the Church to be in such predominance, that I felt as though I, as a liberal, truly was not welcome. If you do not tow Ratzinger's line, you are a persona non grata. That is just the way it is. They want those who disagree with the Vatican on gay marriage, female ordination, birth control, abortion (I am anti-abortion, but I oppose criminalizing it), and mandatory celibacy to just get out of the Church. And that may be what I will have to do. I hate to be run out of an institution which I feel is my spiritual home, but those on the right are a very intolerant lot. Mind you, I do not expect the Vatican to change its policies merely due to public opinion. And I am willing to settle for dialogue on the issues. But what I get is just blatant rejection of my views -- views which are legitimate. Mon 27 Apr 2009 18:06:37 GMT+1 allmymarbles There is an article in The New York Times today about atheism. A poll shows that the present rate of 15 per cent is almost double the figure for 1990. I don't believe the earlier figure. Probably people are just being more honest now. I can remember in my college days when I would say I was an atheist, someone would say that, no, I was a pantheist, or something else more acceptable. Ten per cent of South Carolinians claim to be athiests - so down there you have the religious right, the atheists, and people in the middle. That should put a dent in our perceptions.It seems a lot of atheists are organizing. Can you believe it? How can you make an organization based on nothing? It is like organizing free thinkers. Well, at least they are drawing attention to our existence, but they can't count on me as a member. Mon 27 Apr 2009 17:42:10 GMT+1 happylaze 292. At 3:59pm on 27 Apr 2009, RFC- more-trophies-than-anyone wrote:Stories like this only make me proud that we in Britain booted the Vatican's political influence out centuries ago. With the Papal record of siding with Nazis and every extreme right-wing Government in existence, they are a very loopy and sinister cult. Some very notable Brits did side with the nazi's at first. the church had a lot of people to protect from the nazi's. do you think the resistance had no churches. DID YOU NEVER SEE THE DIRTY DOZEN ;)Most people protect their own first. Not very charitable but true.look at wars we have going. To protect americans (supposedly) america attacked Iraq.heir own ( though one other nation is covered in the US family). Mon 27 Apr 2009 15:21:05 GMT+1 happylaze Gary again rare agreement .Two tommy I really spend no time away from these threads thinking about God etc. I'm into science as well. But as an agnostic I would say you have a lot of faith in science. and that can be almost religious. I like smithing they like going to church. Big deal. as long as they remain harmless. IE not aggressive about it.What ever the religion.There are plenty of people out there that seem to have no belief but actually do. Do you deride them when they say they do?Why care.People believed the economy was sound abortion was more important than healthcare war and peace put together and that the mission was over .I would be more worried about those belief systems than some one who seeks solace on a regular basis with their god. Mon 27 Apr 2009 15:16:39 GMT+1 Gary_A_Hill twotommy2 (#291) "To {sic} bad we all can't just get along."Bad-mouthing the religious faith of others is no way to "get along." Mon 27 Apr 2009 15:05:20 GMT+1 RFC- more-trophies-than-anyone Stories like this only make me proud that we in Britain booted the Vatican's political influence out centuries ago. With the Papal record of siding with Nazis and every extreme right-wing Government in existence, they are a very loopy and sinister cult. Mon 27 Apr 2009 14:59:59 GMT+1 twotommy2 In my opinion I believe in science not religion which is nothing but a bunch of superstition hogwash anyway. To bad we all can't just get along. Mon 27 Apr 2009 09:48:52 GMT+1 Young-Mr-Grace 247. KScurmudgeon,I will read your reference and I hope it provides an answerYou're all doing very well !! Sun 26 Apr 2009 20:45:24 GMT+1 allmymarbles For the record, in Islam sex is a positive good. Sun 26 Apr 2009 19:37:18 GMT+1 allmymarbles 282, Via.I have the advantage of being old. Time was that baptism erased the original sin of the child's parents. You got it - sex. Now they are changing their story to fit into the modern world and keep their flock. Sun 26 Apr 2009 19:25:49 GMT+1 allmymarbles 281, Via.That the church would make adjustments in their dogma to hold on to its members is even worse than their pursuing the same drivel. It marks them as hyprocratical and opportunistic. Sun 26 Apr 2009 19:22:44 GMT+1 courteousAtheist If people were educated they would not beleive in the fairy tales that religious leaders want them to beleive.They might ask themselves questions on why are we here but education would give them the answers.More and more people disassociate themselves from religions the French,the British,the Citizens of the USA.Unfortunately there are still too many simple minded people who give credit to the crazy minded clerics of all the religions Sun 26 Apr 2009 19:22:02 GMT+1 allmymarbles 280, pol."The Catholic Church believes absolutely in the Biblical dictum, "Go forth and multiply". Just how much multiplication is enough - 12 billion? 18 billion? 24 billion?"Blah, blah, blah. Practicality and necessity trump dogma any day. Catholics use birth control. Sun 26 Apr 2009 19:17:49 GMT+1 Quorulex93 @211and yet, on the other hand, if this is the quality of "conversation" we can expect on the topic, then I suppose it's a good thing we do have a Catholic Church, to act as a counterbalance to all this inane yammering. and p.s. Notre Dame is not an extremist institution. Of course they'd be happy to have the president talk there. Why on earth wouldn't they? Sun 26 Apr 2009 18:36:22 GMT+1 OZlateralthinker There is plainly a schism between socialism and religion.There can only be one true faith which is either a form of totalitarianism or democracy.Many socialists, particularly, socialist intellectuals are not confused about their faith because many are aethiests but church leaders are just as confused by political spin as every one else. Socialism simply sells most of the church's messages but with envy promoting division as a mandatory extra. When politicians are placed in your front room every day, religion would take a back seat, if it wasn't blocked at the front door.Unless you missed it, election night for Obama was closer to spiritual experience than anything the church has come up with in the last hundred years.I'm rarely in a church, but I recognise the phrase that faith can move mountains is not the sole property of the church. What I can't understand is why political commentators are blind to the similarities and fail to focus on the speeches which highlight who is responsible for schisms or grand canyons, if you prefer it.It's quite simple. If any religion is drowning, you look for someone or something that is forcing its its head underwater, intentionally or unintentionally.Ask yourself would any priest have retained any credibility if he had used Bill Clinton's famous "no sex with that woman" speech? Sun 26 Apr 2009 13:44:53 GMT+1 Via-Media 278 MarblesOriginal sin is such a complex topic that I won't burden the post with a discussion, but it comes down to an admission that we aren't perfect, and cannot become perfect on our own.And not all churches practice infant baptism. For those that do, some see it as a promise by the parents and church to bring that child up in the faith. I haven't heard any of the moderate protestant churches discussing original sin in a baptismal context. Sun 26 Apr 2009 11:48:06 GMT+1 Via-Media 278/279 MarblesI agree with you wholeheartedly about the Catholic vows of celibacy, and this- along with male-only leadership- more than anything else has driven people from the call to priesthood. But this is a hierarchy, one of some 1800 years of history, and as such is slow to change. It's not a justification, just an explanation- they struggle with adapting to the modern world, without giving up traditions and the core message.I fully expect to see the church abandon celibacy within the next 50 years, perhaps to follow the Orthodox Church model.As far as clerical vestments, not all clergy wear robes anymore, and even Catholic priests are not required to wear the collar. All of these, though, are just the trappings of faith- the practice and organization of Christian churches vary wildly, but the central message doesn't change. Sun 26 Apr 2009 11:42:03 GMT+1 Wrinklyoldgit The Catholic Church believes absolutely in the Biblical dictum, "Go forth and multiply". Just how much multiplication is enough - 12 billion? 18 billion? 24 billion?When the food runs out, when there is not enough drinking water, when arable land is exhausted, when the Four Horsemen of the Apocolypse have ridden out, and war, famine, pestilance and death rule the world, will dogma change? The short answer is NO, that would mean admitting hundreds of years of Papal encyclicals were wrong. Let me remind the church of another Biblical saying - from Matthew 13-13, "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand"Sums up dogma perfectly. Sun 26 Apr 2009 06:56:21 GMT+1 allmymarbles 278, further.What they are trying to do, especially the Catholics, is cloak their dismal precepts in acceptable public relations blather. Do you think the public does not understand this? They do, and the church dies a little more each day. Even the would-be clergy doesn't buy it anymore. Witness the shortage of priests and nuns. Sun 26 Apr 2009 02:59:52 GMT+1 allmymarbles 277, Via.If what you say is true they should give up their black vestments and Catholic clergy their hypocrital vows of chastity. They should also not baptize babies to cleanse them of original sin. While they are at it, they should not make crucifixon a virtue. Sun 26 Apr 2009 02:53:47 GMT+1 Via-Media 276 marblesAt least in this neck of Penn's Woods, hellfire and damnation went out of fashion several decades ago. Most of us realized it was obscuring the central message of the faith, which isn't at all dour. And even some of the Catholics are coming along (but the Orthodox beat us all by centuries...)The Bible-bangers haven't gone away, and they're still out there, trying to convince the rest of us that they're on the only true path. If ostriches truly stuck their heads in the sand, they'd find it already occupied. Sun 26 Apr 2009 02:34:21 GMT+1 allmymarbles 273, Via.I don't say that religion doesn't permit the occasional giggle. But the basis of all of them (those of the book, iat least is dour. Sun 26 Apr 2009 01:55:39 GMT+1 allmymarbles 272, taek.I disagree with you. The Catholics have a right to believe whatever they want. And we have to right not to be Catholics. The notion that Obama should "negotiate" with the church is outrageous. What they believe is none of his business, and what he believes is none of theirs. Sun 26 Apr 2009 01:50:29 GMT+1 allmymarbles 270, Gary."Isn't Epicurianism a western religion?"No, it is a philosophy, which is often equated, in error, with excess. The epicurians believed in experiencing all the good things of life, but never to indulge in excess. Sun 26 Apr 2009 01:46:04 GMT+1 Via-Media 269 allmymarblesTerrible bigots the Puritans definitely were, but the black-and-white, big buckle shoe thing has been proven to be another one of those cultural myths of the Washington Irving frame- like George Washington's cherry tree. Many of the New Englanders, dour as they could be, also could be quite fashionable.I think only about half of the signers of the Mayflower Compact were Puritans, too, and this ratio persisted despite the evils of theocracy. Church attendance was not compulsory, and they often had a heck of a time filling the pews.And I can attest to the fact that not all practitioners of Islam, Judaism, or Christianity (even Catholicism)practice misery- we see the message as one of joy. And my pastor wears a Pittsburgh Steelers tie, and ends his sermons early on game days. Sun 26 Apr 2009 01:36:19 GMT+1 taekwondowally American President Obama and the Roman Catholic Church need to come to negotiation. I believe that abortion should be legalized though. I respect the Latin rite Catholic sect of Christianity but I must admit that they focused too much on anti-abortion and I believe that priests should be permitted to date and marry. Sun 26 Apr 2009 01:31:31 GMT+1 foxtrottango1 To 269.An Atheist once told me that he was the only free thinking individual on the planet. He added he didn't have "a cross to bear" like most "Christians" do with all the fundamental dogma they are brain washed with (enslaved is more like it).I for one, believe only in the Constitution of the United States. It's the only "bible" I know. It odd to realize the US right wing "Christian" coalition republican political pundits tried to dispose of the sacred document during the last eight years. Many years ago, I took a sacred oath to protect and defend the US Constitution from it's enemies, foreign or domestic. I have always honored that oath.As far as I am concern Catholic fundamental dogma or whatever is not even an option. The freedom to express myself, protect myself, defend myself and my people and my country come first! Sat 25 Apr 2009 23:54:33 GMT+1 Gary_A_Hill all.. (#269) "Have you noticed that there is no Western religion that extols happiness?"Isn't Epicurianism a western religion? Sat 25 Apr 2009 23:45:26 GMT+1 allmymarbles foxtrot.Have you noticed that there is no Western religion that extols happiness. They are all based on misery of some sort. And priests, ministers, and rabbis wear black, the color of death. The Pilgrims, those terrible bigots, wore brown, white and black. The only joy offered is god's love, a very iffy reward, especially as I can't see myself sitting adoring for all eternity. I'll take the pleasures of life, thank you. Sat 25 Apr 2009 22:30:57 GMT+1 foxtrottango1 To post 263.Being born into and raised as a Catholic back in the middle 30's and early 40's, I followed my devoted parents to church on Sundays.What made me aware of the teachings of the Holy Roman Empire was a visiting Mexican priest waking up the entire congregation that early Sunday morning by saying "God had a special place reserved in Hell for hypocrites!"Even at that early stage in my life, I discovered what "hypocrisy" meant.After that, it was easy for me to avoid going to church and if I couldn't be a "good" Catholic, I couldn't be good at any other religion.Long ago, someone said that "when I was a child, I played with childish things, but when I became older I laid childish thing behind."It has come to the point where I want to believe there is a supreme being somewhere, somehow, but I just can't identify with it.But unlike the Catholic Church in "America", I can at least identify with President Obama and the mess he inherited from the former occupants in the White House, and mostly what he is trying to do to remedy the disaster inflicted to America. And nd he is having a hell of a time doing it. He does not need the Church meddling in his affairs. And for the record, I do resent the Church of Rome and the Catholic Church in America trying to impale him on a cross! Sat 25 Apr 2009 21:56:03 GMT+1 allmymarbles If culture transcends religion in the West, so it does in the East. Islam came into being on the Arabian Peninsula. Through warfare it spread westward and eastward. Persia, a non-Arab nation with a distinguished past, was overrun. As time passed there was a schism in Islam and Persia broke away for what was presumably a religious reason, but was in fact cultural. The newly created Shia venerated saints, marked graves, made graven images and had a famous vinyard in the south. It allowed the celebration of some Zorastian holidays. It also gave birth to the mystical Sufis ("whilring dervishes," as known to the West). The funadmentalist, predominantly Arab group, the Sunni, considered them heretics. Sat 25 Apr 2009 21:25:34 GMT+1 foxtrottango1 In my OPINION, not only the Catholic Church is a big lie, but so is the entire Christian Church in America. They should stay away from politics and pay taxes just like everyone does.During my life time I have witness many things which has led me to disagree with the Catholic faith. Take one Catholic saying that it's the best faith in the world because where else could a "Christian" sin for six days and confess his sins on the 7th day (Sunday), go on a picnic and than start all over again on the 8th day. Protestants, on the other hand, don't ever confess their sins! Is it any wonder why most US political leaders are "born again" protestants? Do I need to mention names?The truth is, I cannot force myself to believe in a religion that worship a poor soul impaled or nailed to a cross and suffering untold agony. To worship torture is not my cup of tea. I'll leave that to the past political Administrations. But than again, that is what fundamental religious dogma is all about, isn't it? Sat 25 Apr 2009 21:12:05 GMT+1 allmymarbles 263, foxtrot.I think many of us realize that the church of Rome is rather laisser-faire and the Irish churck of America is more doctrinaire. What has not been discussed is the reason for this diffrence. Northern Europeans have a more black and white view of the world and are given to inflexible logic. So whether these people become Catholic or Protestant, or anything else, culture will determine how that religion is expressed. Latins, on the other hand have a more jaded view of authority and are therefore less easy to control.As a second-generation American I was undoubtedly influenced by the prevailing northern Eueopean culture. So knowing I was Catholic I felt I should know what Catholicism was. (My family, of Italian heritage, never went to church, and none ever received first communion.) So, as the first in generations, I went to a Catechism class. (There was another reason for this. I hated school, and if I attended the class I got Wednesday afternoon off. A big plus.) An Irish nun taught the class and viewed me with squinched eyes because of my Italian surname. She knew what I didn't. The stuff we studied seemed rather strange and in some ways pervy. One day I confronted my grandfather and told him he was in mortal sin because he did not go to church on the required days and never received communion. He said to me, "Who told you that nonsense?" "Why would I talk about my life to a priest who leads an abnormal life and has no understanding of marriage and children?" What my grandfather said made sense, but I was very young and had to think it through. I even told him he could not call himself a Catholic. He replied that he was born a Ctholic and would die a Catholic. That didn't make any sense to me at all. But as I got older I saw this as a great cultural difference that transcended religion. Sat 25 Apr 2009 21:09:32 GMT+1 allmymarbles 51, all259, rajeevSentiments needed in the time of plague and famine to keep people from dispairing (and to keep church in power), but naive and outdated in this 21st century. We tell the children there is a Santa Claus, but at least we know we are lying. Sat 25 Apr 2009 20:34:14 GMT+1 foxtrottango1 The church would do better if they concentrate on their problems of pedophile priests than try to match political wits with the President which they can't win.Also, the Catholic church in all of the Americas (Mexico to the tip of South America) is an Hispanic Church, not an Irish one like in the USA. Hispanics, especially Mexicans, do not trust the Irish Catholic Church in the USA and for good reasons.The truth is, there wouldn't be a no European Church of Rome to speak of if it wasn't for Hispanics. That is one reason why Hispanics in the Americas should break away from the Church of Rome and elect their own popes! Both the Church of Rome and the Irish Catholic Church in the USA are a let down for Hispanics.Until that happens, the church of Rome will continue to break apart in the US. Sat 25 Apr 2009 20:30:20 GMT+1 Steve_USA US Catholics are not at war with the President. Shocking as it may seem US Catholics use contraception, get divorced, skip church on Sunday and even sometimes have abortions. As usual Justin tells us more about his own prejudices than the USA. Sat 25 Apr 2009 20:13:07 GMT+1 ikamaskeip All4USA and #51.Baloney and cant! Sat 25 Apr 2009 19:32:45 GMT+1 ikamaskeip Rajeevbat and #259.Baloney! Sat 25 Apr 2009 19:30:06 GMT+1 Rajeevbat Obama needs to promote church activities as religion brings love towards God and happiness in the heart of people taking the name of God. Especially during the hard time of recession when the unemployment and fustration is high, nothing better then God's name to divert the attention of common man from harsh realities and make him not a anti-social but a God fearing and loving person who has faith the God will help him out of this difficult times. There is no better Ambassador of Churches then President Obama.He needs to win the hearths here too. As Gods faith can shift mountain of problems from one place to another. He needs to address this issue seriously. Sat 25 Apr 2009 19:11:33 GMT+1 allmymarbles 256, Andy.Thank you for trying to understand the point of view of the nonreligious. Sat 25 Apr 2009 18:59:38 GMT+1 allmymarbles 254, maximus."The Church is about loving God by following His commandments, it is not about remaking a spurious emotional experience for its members and revising the commandments to fit one's preferences."The ten commandments are common to all societies (religious and otherwise), and the Catholic church command claim them as their rown. Without these moral precepts there would be a lawless and chaotic world. Sat 25 Apr 2009 18:56:30 GMT+1 Andy Post Ref. 152, marbles"Peculiar reasoning."Yeah, ok.I need more time to think on this topic. It's interesting, but completely new to me.I don't buy the premise that business and religion are the same, but I admit, I haven't come up with the argument to counter the premise. Sat 25 Apr 2009 16:43:23 GMT+1 happylaze 253 "i am from the united states" no kidding?really? Sat 25 Apr 2009 16:20:39 GMT+1 MaximusC As Henry VIII observed, "Where in the Bible does it say anything about a Pope?"I guess the king was a poor student of Greek. The New Testament does mention bishops, the Pope is just another title for the Bishop of Rome.Plus, secular authorities cannot be the head of the Church. If Henry VIII was a more observant student of the Greek. He would have realized that point as well. Christ is the head of the Church.The Church is about loving God by following His commandments, it is not about remaking a spurious emotional experience for its members and revising the commandments to fit one's preferences. Sat 25 Apr 2009 15:06:21 GMT+1 warriorMatt24 251. At 09:43am on 25 Apr 2009, letshaveit wrote:letshaveit, I read your post. I agree with what you said. I am from the United States. I suggest if you are old enough to drink alcohol and have a beach chair to sit back and enjoy the entertainment----anytime religious people self destruct---just like Obama going to Notre Dame. Some Catholics want him there and some don't, they can't even make up their mindless minds. Hello from Pennsylvania. Take Care. Sat 25 Apr 2009 13:26:06 GMT+1 Via-Media 244 bere54245 allmymarblesI did not find either of your previous posts offensive or disrespectful, but there were several people whose posts started descending into mockery. Questioning belief systems is good, and I don't think that there is an honest human- believer or not- who does not have to deal with that questioning. But as some of the others have done, calling all believers in any religion idiots or delusional is juvenile and rude. As a believer I do not blindly the words of others, but struggle daily. It is a deliberate choice- and I understand agnostic and atheist positions far better than might be expected. It would be far easier not to believe, and yet some still do. Sat 25 Apr 2009 11:37:38 GMT+1 Jules I am English and live in a Catholic dominated country. There are killings on a daily basis, theft, adultary and everything under the sun. However, because they get forgiven for their sins whenever they goto confession they continue to commit these offenses.Most have never read the bible they just believe what they are told and if they question anything they are told all sorts of crazy stories.The catholic church is out of date and if its to continue must overhaul everything about it but fortunately they will not so it will evenntually collapse. Unfortunately not in out lifetime. Sat 25 Apr 2009 08:43:42 GMT+1 SONICBOOMER 194. dpb1997, Barack a 'Muslim Plant'Sounds like you are a plant too, the type that needs watering twice a day. Sat 25 Apr 2009 07:06:56 GMT+1 happylaze frogstar. cheers. similar for me. OS Sat 25 Apr 2009 06:15:05 GMT+1 watermanaquarius gunsandreligion # 221.Thank you for the guide.Many remark that it appears you have the least fun as a catholic, and the greatest fun is breaking the rules.With the advent of commercial enterprise attempting to make a fast buck with their immediate introduction of "Obama condoms" [slogan- "use with good judgement"] perhaps the RC Church feels they have been out-manoevered, and are now behind the times.. Could a re-think by the power at the top be the answer.- Vatican condoms.! { slogan- Holy, holy holey- Use with gods' judgement}.It would restore a little excitement into the mundane life of many a catholic doing their duty. The coffers would be replenished, the confessional would be working overtime, and there is the probability of filling future pews at a time when church numbers are deteriorating.By attempting to level the playing field they would ensure that filling ones' boots would support the church, remove the necessity to commit a sin, and it would make waterboarding look like childs' play when you have your own personal Russian roulette game going.p.s. [For those untouched by the pressures of belief who wish to be green and patriotic, the company also makes McCain and Palin brands with their individual catchy slogans, just for disheartened republicans] Sat 25 Apr 2009 06:02:32 GMT+1 KScurmudgeon 180. At 09:27am on 24 Apr 2009, RomeStu wrote:47 young-mr-grace and 161 kscurmudgeon"on the idea that those who never heard about Jesus cannot accept him and therefore by default are damned ....."I recommend to both of you that you read the first four chapters of the letter to the Romans for yourselves. You will see that although Paul is primarily interested in explaining human unworthiness and salvation among Jews and Gentiles, he also talks about God's approach to the whole human condition irrespective of time, place, or culture. Abraham is the example that speaks directly to the original question.RomStu seems to throw out the whole record because he does not approve of St. Paul. Nonetheless, Paul is one of the founding leaders of Christianity, and has been recognized as a valid expositor from biblical times."The medieval church position was clear - no Jesus,tough luck, you're in hell. "The mediaeval church was long on faith and short on compassion. You choose it as your standard for Christian thought?175. At 07:49am on 24 Apr 2009, David_Cunard wrote:#169. KScurmudgeon: "Sin is a matter of morality.""No, it's a matter of opinion. The catalogue of "sins" described by the Roman Catholic Church is not the same as other churches;..."Did you completely miss my argument? I must apologize to you. This discussion is not about 'sin', it is about the elementary duties of being human, i.e., morality. Institutional definitions of sins are beside the point. How we should behave toward each other was my point. KScurmudgeon Sat 25 Apr 2009 04:25:23 GMT+1 allmymarbles 239, thefrogstar."Yes, I think that 'Catholic-guilt' does increase the pleasure. I think that this could be one of the unspoken reasons for the success of the church. I would be interested to know other peoples' thoughts on this from the stand-point of other religions."It was not all that long ago that all sexual affairs were taboo, regardless of any particular regligion. That made them much more fun. I don't remember the guilt part. Sat 25 Apr 2009 03:09:56 GMT+1 allmymarbles 240, Via.There are those of us who do not respect any religion. We express what we think. Why is that disrespect any different then your disrespect of us. Religious people do not have an aura that protects them from protest, although usually they think they do. Sat 25 Apr 2009 02:32:16 GMT+1 bere54 240, Via-Media -While I respect you, I simply cannot have respect for beliefs that to me are utterly ridiculous, foolish, and can be downright dangerous. To ask me to have respect for these beliefs is to expect me to be hypocritical. Hypocrisy is something I do not respect either. Sat 25 Apr 2009 02:27:00 GMT+1 bere54 239, thefrogstar -When I was a teenager at Jewish camp (the kind of camp where we had classes instead of archery and hikes), a bunch of us would hide out in one of the cabins, cutting lectures and listening to a contraband cassette: "Jesus Christ Superstar." Until we were caught by a sanctimonious counselor who confiscated the tape and reported us. We all got extra kitchen duty. I've always been fond of that soundtrack, probably because it was illicit the first time I heard it.I never could figure out why it was frowned upon there because it certainly wasn't reverent to Jesus.What was really annoying was that the kids who were having sex under the cabins and skinny-dipping in the pool at night never got in trouble, while my bunch was sent up for listening to music. Sat 25 Apr 2009 02:20:48 GMT+1 Via-Media 185 HesiodosThanks for the Calvin & Hobbes. The last of the truly great daily cartoons. Sat 25 Apr 2009 02:17:32 GMT+1 allmymarbles I wonder what Father Guido Sarducci has to say about all this. Sat 25 Apr 2009 02:07:37 GMT+1 Via-Media We on this post are so eager to condemn any people of any faith whatsoever that we are in danger of stooping to the level of mocking, and baiting, and disrespect that we so rightly condemn in They-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named- who degrade this site with their disrespect.Please, respect each person's right to believe as they so choose. Sat 25 Apr 2009 02:05:11 GMT+1 thefrogstar #76 HappylazeI recall only a few lectures on abortion at the Catholic school I went to. Fortunately the amount of direct "religious instruction" was tiny: 1 hour per week, max, with very occasional guest appearances from a man in a smart cassock. (I wish they'd had those wide-brimmed hats, like they do in Italy. God, I'd still love one). But in any case, it was a 13 to 18 experience, and almost every body there already knew where 'Rome-Corp' stood on the matter. We were even encouraged to have some debates amongst ourselves in the final years, but most had pretty much made up their minds long before, so it wasn't really an interesting issue. (I still remember remember embarrassing my mother in church with what I thought, when I was four years old, so they were way too late in some respects).#231 Gary_A_Hill "Looks like you can (have) the least fun as a Catholic ... ""On the contrary, the most fun is had by breaking the rules."Yes, I think that 'Catholic-guilt' does increase the pleasure. I think that this could be one of the unspoken reasons for the success of the church. I would be interested to know other peoples' thoughts on this from the stand-point of other religions. Sat 25 Apr 2009 01:43:41 GMT+1 happylaze now to the topic of conversation and St doms comment 229. well said. I find the hypocrisy of blaming the catholic church for sex scandals and the fervour over abortion. Most american churches obsess over these.and not all churches are full of baby eaters. Just to point that out to some.231 Well said gary. Sat 25 Apr 2009 00:43:57 GMT+1 happylaze 230. At 10:16pm on 24 Apr 2009, AndreainNY wrote:224. happylaze: Yeah, whatever. Straight and high are two very different states. Your writing reflects that.A little sanctimonious aren't you. Would you rather dine with a Pot head or a clean cut pedophile , because when it comes down to it a lot of the people on the news being arrested for that stuff are pretty straight looking.You'd go for the non pot head. Your who reason for superiority is that you don't take drugs.Well I don't have a single prescription and have not taken any pharmaceuticals with the exception of some anti biotics in 20 years.No asprin no prozac nowt. tell me about chemical purity. I Don't know what you take, but if you spend more than 0 seconds in the morning on it you are an addict.;) In my world that makes me feel superior. So do you see how sad your drug superior comments are to me.Though I do think you worth answering because you are really so offensively blind to yourself.But you don't call people names do you ninny. Sat 25 Apr 2009 00:36:20 GMT+1 lejardine89 Personally I think the Catholic Church needs to grow up and get a brain. They have no say as to what women can do to their bodies. Living in the past helps no one. Fri 24 Apr 2009 23:19:17 GMT+1 David Cunard #223. rbr569: "Getting off the abortion issue is worthwhile. The fundamental question is: Should Obama be invited to speak at a Catholic institution? The answer is incontrovertably NO."The majority of Americans don't care to be told to whom their President may address. After all, he was elected to his office by a majority of those voting, something which cannot be said of either Her Majesty or Gordon Brown. Of course he should address a Catholic body - he will be there in his capacity as head of the nation, not stumping for any part of his political agenda. Fri 24 Apr 2009 22:40:00 GMT+1 allmymarbles 231, Gary.""Looks like you can (have) the least fun as a Catholic ... " "On the contrary, the most fun is had by breaking the rules."I can't argue with experience. Fri 24 Apr 2009 21:33:58 GMT+1 bere54 229, saintDominick -I doubt anyone has forgotten the hypocrisy of the rest of organized religion, but this blog post is specifically about Catholics so it is natural that most of the comments would be directed thusly. Open season on that church, so to speak. But feel free to bash all those other guys; I for one would enjoy that. Fri 24 Apr 2009 21:31:41 GMT+1 seanspa Guns, 221 is fascinating. It always amazes me how jewish and catholic outlooks vary so much, given how much of their beliefs stem supposedly from the same source. Does god speak with forked tongue? Lost in Tranlation, I like that film. Scarlett Johansson was amazing. Fri 24 Apr 2009 21:30:00 GMT+1 Gary_A_Hill "Looks like you can (have) the least fun as a Catholic ... "On the contrary, the most fun is had by breaking the rules. Fri 24 Apr 2009 21:25:33 GMT+1 AndreainNY 224. happylaze: Yeah, whatever. Straight and high are two very different states. Your writing reflects that. Fri 24 Apr 2009 21:16:21 GMT+1 saintDominick I am certainly not a defender of the Catholic Church, a Church I abandoned many years ago because I could not accept dogma I considered illogical, and because of the intolerance, greed, and corruption associated with organized religion in general; but I think those that seem so eager to highlight priest sex scandals, and the Vatican's slow response to it, should remember hypocrisy and cynicism are widespread in the divinity world. Don't forget Ted Haggard, Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Earl Paulk, John Hagee, Jamal Harrison, Paul Barnes and the rest of the divinity boys who like their Catholic counterparts preached one thing and did the opposite. Fri 24 Apr 2009 21:12:41 GMT+1 happylaze 223 did GW go to ND?He was a murderer by some definitions for " The fundamental question is: Should Obama be invited to speak at a Catholic institution? The answer is incontrovertably NO. There is nothing in his attitude or demeanor that jibes with anything that the Church holds dear. "Not a fundamental question but a fundamentalists question. that fundamentalist being our Justin .;)Obama against war? did not vote for it.he spoke out against it. most others did. the list of speakers available just got real real short.Now that GW/Dick have broken so many places in such a short time. Iraq Pakistan Afghanistan etc. by encouraging anyone to think AQ is better than the USA..Now you want to leave all to kill each other. or rather you would have us deride the guy who is trying to end Both these conflicts . Neither of which he was responsible for.Death penalty.So he should be knocked because he is smart enough to not believe that bringing this to the american people would work. (futile gesture considering (unfortunately) the american people.So he leaves it for a while. ATTACK.I assume you were against Both wars and publicly said this?Are you against the death penalty? I assume so.What other president that spoke at ND was against the war and the death penalty.mot quite the queens birthday but. Fri 24 Apr 2009 21:05:44 GMT+1 allmymarbles 221. guns."For the confused, here is a guide as to what you should be doing with whomever you are doing it with."Looks like you can the least fun as a Catholic and the most as a Buddhist. Time to convert! Fri 24 Apr 2009 21:01:58 GMT+1