Comments for http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html en-gb 30 Sat 23 Aug 2014 18:53:21 GMT+1 A feed of user comments from the page found at http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html U13879755 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=99#comment284 Checking the pulse of The War Against Terror (check the acronym)Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peaceed Sun 22 Mar 2009 15:14:51 GMT+1 poetic_reaper http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=99#comment283 i hope the President doesn't get too casual or cocky to dismiss a very real, and present threat... even from within the borders. Not everyone is willing to change.i am concerned about a hasty pull out because it is no longer "American interest"... I am concerned about all the innocent lives that will be abandoned and left to harms way. And what about the troops? i don't want Iraq to be the new Vietnam. Sun 22 Mar 2009 04:33:06 GMT+1 dennisjunior1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=98#comment282 Justin:The "War On Terror" will probably never end, but...It will revolved around to encompass many different pieces...~Dennis Junior~ Tue 17 Mar 2009 21:00:58 GMT+1 mantis569 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=98#comment281 The 'War on Terror' can never end and will be used for a long time to stir up fear within society. Think about it really, how can you have a war on a word? Looking for terrorists is like looking for a needle in hastack, which is precisely why the war in the middle east will continue until the US and the other allied forces choose to withdraw. Much like Vietnam this war is not designed to be 'won', it is simply sustained to further other political and financial agendas.http://www.freenation.org.uk Thu 12 Mar 2009 14:29:45 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=98#comment280 Dav I think you will find they are right. This has been a point I have made hundreds(it seems) when people (i say "what would you do" when I say stop Israel's bombing.Glad to see your on the ball though. Wed 11 Mar 2009 16:25:31 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=97#comment279 Armsdog BillionaireSalaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peaceed Tue 10 Mar 2009 10:42:36 GMT+1 seanspa http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=97#comment278 #276, I think you'll find that his point is that the brits don't behave the way the israelis do. Mon 09 Mar 2009 20:18:55 GMT+1 dceilar http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=97#comment277 #276 dav . . . given that you think we retaliate in force against Ireland as the Israelis do in Gaza, I'll concede that you're simply beyond help on this one.I think you missed Happy's point (and the bulge in his cheek): that the UK does not retaliate like what the Israelis do when it is faced with terrorism in NI. Mon 09 Mar 2009 19:23:48 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=96#comment276 And, not forgetting Gaza....;-(ed Mon 09 Mar 2009 16:37:05 GMT+1 dav3j1986 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=96#comment275 #275 - Having read a lot of your comments, this one topping them off, I have to conclude, you're quite the idiot.If you were anywhere near the truth regarding the situation in NI I could forgive you, but given that you think we retaliate in force against Ireland as the Israelis do in Gaza, I'll concede that you're simply beyond help on this one. I'd advise you to read up on the subject a little before embarrassing yourself again. Mon 09 Mar 2009 16:32:41 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=96#comment274 well looks like the war on terror forgot a corner.http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7930995.stmAfter this I suspect that if the UK behaves like the Israeli's there will be a lot of Irish refugees fleeing the bombing. Mon 09 Mar 2009 06:35:29 GMT+1 sanjeshdubey http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=95#comment273 until there won't be any action also a useful result nothing can't be predicted...but need of the hour is action not diplomatic talks...i appreciate Mr. obama's concern...but these promises are not enough to curb the terrorist activites.................... Thu 05 Mar 2009 11:25:06 GMT+1 chronophobe http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=95#comment272 Ed, more stupidity like that up here, too. Posters advertising the "Israeli Apartheid Week" have been banned at both Ottawa University and Carleton U. They were deemed "offensive" after a couple of Jewish students complained that the posters made them feel uncomfortable. More here.On the other hand, it provided more free publicity to the event than ever could have been bought.And here's Philip Weiss who sees a ray of hope coming out of the assault on Gaza: What space exists in Jewish and American life for a unorthodox view of Israel? The answer here is finally somewhat encouraging. Little by little, the space is growing.Keep on pushing . . . Pinko Thu 05 Mar 2009 03:45:00 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=95#comment271 Update on the Lancet article ;-((ed Thu 05 Mar 2009 00:34:38 GMT+1 chronophobe http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=94#comment270 Shalom, salaam, peace from HaDag NahashGood tune, great band. Cheers,Pinko Wed 04 Mar 2009 04:39:06 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=94#comment269 267 probably right there. Wed 04 Mar 2009 01:04:20 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=94#comment268 Good video!Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peaceed Wed 04 Mar 2009 00:44:11 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=93#comment267 Join in - join out! You know it's right!Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peaceed Wed 04 Mar 2009 00:30:40 GMT+1 dceilar http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=93#comment266 ~265 JackThey have their reasons for being anti-British. And all of them are right! Tue 03 Mar 2009 18:38:41 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=92#comment265 Ms Marbles (118), "The mandate had a cut-off date."I don't believe so. The Brits decided to end it because they couldn't handle the proto-israeli terrorism. The mandates were indeed intended to end in statehood, but the timing was effectively up to the mandatory power.Background"ART. 28. In the event of the termination of the mandate hereby conferred upon the Mandatory, the Council of the League of Nations shall make such arrangements as may be deemed necessary for safeguarding in perpetuity, under guarantee of the League, the rights secured by Articles 13 and 14, and shall use its influence for securing, under the guarantee of the League, that the Government of Palestine will fully honour the financial obligations legitimately incurred by the Administration of Palestine during the period of the mandate, including the rights of public servants to pensions or gratuities."Peaceed Tue 03 Mar 2009 17:55:03 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=92#comment264 264 Dceiler probably. there really are not that many people that are anti jewish. (though some try to promote this , MA, Gherkin Too and rob)there are huge numbers that are anti semetic though, but we won't go there.Certainly not pro semetic.It is funny the world tour that you describe.That anti british feeling may well be justified on the statistical probability they are drunk and abusive lol.And probably call everyone" Manwell" Tue 03 Mar 2009 17:51:56 GMT+1 dceilar http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=92#comment263 ~246 PinkoI don't think Stalin is the key that opens this door.I didn't know I was trying to open a door ;-)The emphasis of my point is on Stalinists not Stalin. When inconvenient truths get in the way of one's ideology then one falls back into a state of denial. Israel has committed war crimes in Gaza and sponsors State terror against Palestinians. Zionist bloggers are in a state of denial of these truths in the same way as the Stalinists were. ~253 PinkoThanks for link. Let's hope the writer is right! We live in hope.~259 JackI know a number of people who said they were 'going to see the world'! In fact what they meant was they were going to Australia for a couple of months via two days in Thailand or something similar. I've been to more foreign lands by jumping on the ferry to Marcus' favorite place France then going on down to Spain! And no I didn't see any burning effigies of Jews! I think they are more anti-British than anti-Semitic. Tue 03 Mar 2009 17:32:35 GMT+1 Andy Post http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=91#comment262 Ref. 118"Palestine was not a possession, but a mandate (a sort of temporary colony). The mandate had a cut-off date."Thanks. I did not know that. Tue 03 Mar 2009 17:09:55 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=91#comment261 now we have finished the war on terror can we get on with the "war on poverty" cause america has lost that one. Tue 03 Mar 2009 16:47:39 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=91#comment260 260 Yea I've met a few that left as quick as they could because they refuse to "serve".WWOOF is a way of finding other organic ways of working abroad.Willing Workers on Organic Farms. Tue 03 Mar 2009 16:46:35 GMT+1 bere54 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=90#comment259 259, happy -I think you'd have to be insane to want to work on a kibbutz today (and apparently there aren't that many left; they've turned into capitalist endeavors). It used to be a good way to spend a gap year, but it certainly wasn't an option for my kids, particularly since their father had dual American/Israeli citizenship which means they had Israeli citizenship from birth (if they wanted to claim it - which they don't!) and I am afraid they would be conscripted into the army if they set foot in Israel. Tue 03 Mar 2009 16:29:43 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=90#comment258 258 Chrono that was a pretty good Vid.Bere on KibbutzI remember when loads of Euro's looking for a cheap life and a chance to get some money to go on trips to India and Pakistan would go to work on a Kibbutz( they rarely travelled further ).I wonder if they are not so eager these days given we all know now that there is more to the situation there than the old days of (they are terrorists)DeceilerAnd yes Geert is as crazy as they get. I suspect maybe Rob could take him on and considers him a freedom fighter. Tue 03 Mar 2009 15:14:07 GMT+1 chronophobe http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=90#comment257 Hi bere,My early impressions of Israel were formed in large part by a girlfriend who did a stint in a kibbutz. So much good to be said about the enterprise -- and yet, all that promise ends up with Avigdor Lieberman staring back from the progressive mirror. Maybe this will cause liberal Israelis to think a bit more deeply about where their future is heading. And now for something completely different: a funny take on hasbarah from Eretz Nehedert. Yours,Pinko Tue 03 Mar 2009 01:11:48 GMT+1 bere54 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=89#comment256 253, chrono -Thanks for that link. When I lived in Israel some 35 years ago, I noticed that Arab labor seemed to be the backbone of the kibbutz movement. Many kibbutzniks felt uncomfortable in that so many of their fellows were unwilling to do the "dirty" work and preferred to pay Arab laborers. I have suspected that the growing distrust of their Arab workers helped bring about the (almost) demise of the kibbutz today. And of course the more you mistreat your workers and treat them like despised menials, the more reason you have to distrust them.The Israelis I knew who were against the use of Arab labor were the ones who in general preferred to have them as neighbors and friends, working their own land. I guess they were in the minority then, and are more so now.I noticed that that column you linked didn't really go into the long-term debate over the labor issue. It's kind of like the old South: "we like our blacks as long as they keep quiet, know their place, and work for us. Otherwise, let them live somewhere else." Mon 02 Mar 2009 21:08:47 GMT+1 dceilar http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=89#comment255 #251 EdGeert Wilders - crazy name, crazy guy Mon 02 Mar 2009 19:20:47 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=89#comment254 251 Ed a good read?lolScary stuff there.A bit OTT for me.'Cept Geert knocking that is a good sport. Mon 02 Mar 2009 18:01:34 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=88#comment253 Pinko, Namaste Thanks for the link to the Grauniad. We can but hope. The "South African" solution arises here, as well."Unless we think creatively – which means thinking beyond the dominant forms of Zionism. It means thinking of the fourth solution, which is in fact the only solution: one binational state, in which Jews, Muslims and Christians have equal rights and responsibilities, in which both Arab and Jewish histories and identities are respected and protected. It’s hard to imagine, but we can start by thinking of Israel-Palestine as it is now, but without walls, fences and checkpoints, without Jews-only roads and Jews-only settlements, without discriminatory laws. The state would still house a thriving Hebrew culture, but it would also allow a Levantine Arab culture to fully express itself.Israeli Jews worry that, as a minority, they would be oppressed or expelled. The answer is that the constitution of the state would have to guarantee communal as well as individual rights. The constitution could in turn be guaranteed by the United Nations and a collection of superpowers. An American threat of force to defend a democratic constitution would make a lot more sense than current American threats to defend apartheid and ethnic cleansing."We must never lose all hope. Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peaceed Mon 02 Mar 2009 17:50:52 GMT+1 chronophobe http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=88#comment252 re: 248 Ed Porcine aviators, anyone?Not kosher, Ed. Or halal. But really, the pendulum is swinging back, I think. How Obama handles AIPAC will matter. How Israeli public opinion reacts to the sight of Gaza being rebuilt with Western aid will matter. How Israeli opinion reacts to the sight of Netanyahu and Livni squabbling like jackals, with Lieberman grinning all the while, will matter:It is time for any Israeli with an enlightened self-image to look at the mirror and see Avigdor Lieberman staring back. It is time to stop the procrastination over the question whether Israel can be both Jewish and democratic. Lieberman provided the answer loud and clear: it cannot. At this late hour, when the shadow of proto-fascism is hovering over the land, it is time to join forces with Palestinian citizens in the battle against ethnic purity, and for a true democracy. It is time to stop fidgeting, and to admit that mono-ethnicism cannot be a framework for liberal values. Given a possible alternative, war without end is something that appeals to very few. How, then, to make the alternative appear to be something worth trying for?Yours,Pinko Mon 02 Mar 2009 16:59:02 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=88#comment251 maybe they can just "make " a non terrorist by using these good people from the states to control the breeding.Of course I am joking but it is sick and so is the war on terrorism.Not stopping terrorism thats a fine goal. but the war Mon 02 Mar 2009 16:45:17 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=87#comment250 Happy and Bere,Mark Regev isn't yet used to having his assertions questioned, though it's encouraging that the practice is actually beginning to take hold over here. I suspect it may take a bit longer in the Good Old USA....Now all we need to have is some air time given to real-life Palestinians...still in short supply, compared to the likes of Regev the Repellant.Salaam, etc.edA good read Mon 02 Mar 2009 16:33:56 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=87#comment249 247 Bere I was wondering if this debate had an effect on that report being aired. I doubt it but that is some coincidence. the Israeli spokesman said they "may use it to build shelters for hamas" . seeing as they are the elected gov of Gaza that would seem reasonable . In fact SKiV has derided them for not building shelters.Though they would have to let civilians in. Though that would be a bad move because I am sure If hamas built them Israel would destroy them.Sad state of affairs Mon 02 Mar 2009 16:19:43 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=87#comment248 248 they do it by swishing their tail in circles real fast. (like muttley did) Mon 02 Mar 2009 16:11:51 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=86#comment247 Pinko, "And maybe this shift will make itself felt in Israeli policies as well."Porcine aviators, anyone? Mon 02 Mar 2009 15:41:34 GMT+1 bere54 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=86#comment246 243, happylaze -I too heard that report on BBC this morning. The Israeli spokesman, Mark Regev, always sounds confused so that is nothing new. Mon 02 Mar 2009 15:39:59 GMT+1 chronophobe http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=85#comment245 re: 241 dceliar SKV and his ilk are nothing more than apologists for State terror. Just like the Stalinists of old, they will not accept the truth of their beloved regime killing innocent civilians and children.I don't think Stalin is the key that opens this door. There is an obsession with the will I have seen in so many right wing writers (and bloggers) on the subject of Israel in particular, and the war on terror generally. More to the point, the myth of almost magically willing solutions has been the obsession of both US and Israeli policy makers as well. Who needs negotiations when you can make your adversary submit?The core of this obsession is summed up nicely by this thoughtful blogger:The irony of the conservative obsession with will is that this obsession ultimately leads to a position of amoral relativism, the supposed shibboleth of cultural conservatives. If you are not winning, you simply must become even more ruthless, more cruel, more inhuman. After all, failure stems from a failure of will, not poor strategy, design, or planning. There is always another law to vitiate, person to imprison and torture, or town to pacify.Despite the glorification of pseudo-religion by conservatives, the obsession with will reveals a narcissism at the core of modern conservatism. Will is easy. No outcomes to assess, strategies to plan. You do not actually have to know or understand anything. Just click your heels, throw some pixie dust in the air, think happy thoughts, and all will be right.(Although, in the case of the war on terror, pixie dust is replaced by laser bombs and phosphorus shells.) Maybe, just maybe, the downgrading of the war on terror rhetoric by Obama signals a shift from this self-absorbed narcissism. And maybe this shift will make itself felt in Israeli policies as well. The times, they are a changin'?Yours,Pinko Mon 02 Mar 2009 15:20:01 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=85#comment244 As Britain trumpets its generous offer of 30 million quid for the re-building of Gaza, I remind anyone who missed ti of this report on the systematic destruction of local capacityRemember the formula:Millions for aidBillions for weaponryTrillions for banks;-(ed Mon 02 Mar 2009 15:08:18 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=85#comment243 SKiV we have read your responses hence the pulling of your lies."I tend to provide what I believe facts to support my position.I just wondering where your facts happy & lazy. So far you didn't go any deeper that cheep headlines from liberal press."I have you have not once backed your extensive writings with any links that would show you to be right. Liberal press is every one but the zionist press to you.I just hope you were not brainwashed into your thinking in the US military. Then we have no hope.Israel said no more rockets"that is the price for peace" then they changed the goal posts to "release Corp Shallit""Release the Palestinian kids and prisoners first" I suspect the answer will be.When they change they goal posts so often it does make it seem that Israel are a bunch of lying terrorists. Mon 02 Mar 2009 15:06:21 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=84#comment242 I would like to congratulate everyone ( well maybe not everyone) here in their efforts to find some truth.It surprised me but I was glad to see the BBC did have a piece on the news this morning (OPB 30 minutes a day) about the fact that rebuilding is going to be a bit hard if there is no Steel or concrete allowed across the border. And that there was only one crossing open though the Israeli spokesman tried to claim more were he could not mention them by name and seemed confused.Well done Justin if that was anything to do with your Job as Editor for the US.Well done and thank you. Mon 02 Mar 2009 14:52:12 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=84#comment241 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7919050.stmhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7918716.stmOI SKV How are they meant to build those shelters? Mon 02 Mar 2009 14:48:34 GMT+1 dceilar http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=84#comment240 #240 EdThanks for the link. I'm not surprised either - Israel is the problem!SKV and his ilk are nothing more than apologists for State terror. Just like the Stalinists of old, they will not accept the truth of their beloved regime killing innocent civilians and children. His ilk even blame Hamas for the IDF killing children! Sounds no different from a rapist blaming his victim for being raped! Mon 02 Mar 2009 13:52:39 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=83#comment239 Palestinians haven’t a partner for peace"Hamas, the militant Palestinian organisation, attempted to conduct secret talks with the Israeli leadership in the protracted run-up to the recent war in Gaza - with messages being passed from the group at one stage through a member of prime minister Ehud Olmert's family.Confirmation of attempts to establish a direct line of communication between Hamas and Israel - and the willingness of senior figures in Hamas to contemplate direct negotiations - fundamentally alters the narrative of the build-up to the war in Gaza which claimed more than 1,300 Palestinian lives and led to about a dozen Israeli deaths."Nothing new, really. Israel has always been the roadblock to peace.“Freedom of the press is guaranteed only to those who own one.” - H. L. Mencken Mon 02 Mar 2009 12:41:21 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=83#comment238 SKV, ""provisional Palestinian state". Isn't the current status of PA?I would be really surprised if they allowed Palestinian army to be created first."So, why don't we start with a similarly limited provisional Israeli state? Oh, I forgot! That was the intent of Resolution 181, but it didn't reckon with Stern, IRGUN, et. al. And, just for the record, just what gives Israel the right to determine the properties of any Palestinian state? Is there a reciprocal right for the Palestinians?Salaam, etc.ed Mon 02 Mar 2009 12:03:17 GMT+1 dceilar http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=83#comment237 #233 SKVI did read your response. I was not convinced one bit! Hamas have said that they support the Arab League proposal - US and Israel have not. You can call Hamas' support of the Arab League proposal as 'diplomatic speak' as much as you want, but it doesn't deter the fact that Israel has only once ever pushed for peace (and that was half hearted because the rate of illegal new settlements increased)! Hamas declared a unilateral ceasefire in 2005 and reaffirmed their commitment to it three days before Israel started its onslaught.Also it was Israel that broke the terms of the 2008 ceasefire not Hamas, but you already know that. In fact Israel went against the spirit of the deal by never lifting its blockade.Judging by their actions, and not their 'diplomatic speak', Israel and US do not want a viable Palestinian State.The Road Map is a sham, thanks to Israeli alterations reducing it to worthlessness. The peace process does not need to start from scratch- it is embodied in the Arab League proposal. If you support peace you should lobby Israel into supporting it. It has been mentioned that Hamas is not the real threat to Israel. It is those Palestinians and Israelis who support peace, democracy, secularism, and the pre-1967 borders that are a real threat. Mon 02 Mar 2009 09:13:09 GMT+1 Sergey http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=82#comment236 Hey, #231: Ed Iglehart wrote:Did you read your own post?It was called "provisional Palestinian state". Isn't the current status of PA?I would be really surprised if they allowed Palestinian army to be created first.There is in no trust. You know metal pipe can be used for pluming or for rockets.Every time Israel tried to easy restriction few morons use materials to fire rockets. But I hope that you would agree that over all Israel and PA made a progress from 1990's despite Intefada.And it was only possible that some people on both sides were able to bridge differences.And there are also some people in GAza (HAMAS) that badly what to null all these agreement. Mon 02 Mar 2009 01:26:38 GMT+1 Sergey http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=82#comment235 220. At 05:18am on 01 Mar 2009, allmymarbles wrote:1. "You make them sound like ignorant peasants. "Don' blame on me Brits problems. They were not able to find 'Palestinians intellectual leaders'.I referred to research book that based to Brits documents. 2. Sorry man you produce no references. Each nation claims to teach everybody around. Just l look at Americans/Brits etc.Last time I check University of Jerusalem was establish in 1918. Too shallow to produce intellectuals to teach whole Arab world.Cairo University was reestablished in 1908 before 1818-1854. At least 10 yrs ahead. Mon 02 Mar 2009 01:12:18 GMT+1 Sergey http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=82#comment234 #225. At 4:21pm on 01 Mar 2009, happylaze wrote:SKiV (your version of history is again as one sided as your arguement.I'm sorry that I do not use a pile of bull like you to try to confuse the opposition.There is no "a pile of bull" to confuse.I tend to provide what I believe facts to support my position.I just wondering where your facts happy & lazy. So far you didn't go any deeper that cheep headlines from liberal press. Mon 02 Mar 2009 01:02:25 GMT+1 Sergey http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=81#comment233 #230. At Ed Iglehart Read my post in full!I never tried to justify any relocation!It was given as an example that Rulers had full power over their subjects and it was common proactive to move communities/nations/tribes around.Do read out more than was written :).Cheers. Mon 02 Mar 2009 00:51:02 GMT+1 Sergey http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=81#comment232 $229. At 7:45pm on 01 Mar 2009, dceilar You keep posting the same without looking into responce:1. You wrong that nobody cares about HAMAS charter: Besides Zionists there are many more states/organizations that cares about Hamas charter:UN, US, EU and... HAMAS.2. HAMAS support Arab effort to bring peace (A-ka guys keep pushing thanks for trying :). HAMAS never signed Arab Initiative accord! Read this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative You have funny position:1. Don't care about HAMAS documents2. Don't believe what Israel/US wrote.3. Trust Mishal calls. (He makes a lot of callsWhen there is no trust between people they ask to put everything in witting.That the reason why people so concern about HAMAS charter.You refer to Noam Chomsky. Good propaganda source. He point out on US/Israel rejected UN resolution "The right of the Palestinian people to self-determination".Sound like US/Israel don't what Palestinian state!This resolution conflicts with previous accords with Arafat that lead to PA and 'Road map'. It is hard to dissolve PA today.Israel and US committed to Palestine as it was agreed and signed with Arafat. They don't want start from scratch.Do you want to see peace process start from scratch?Did you see what happened to Gaza when HAMAS provoked IDF?Do you like to see HAMAS on W.Bank firing rocket to Israel?Once you read HAMAS chapter you will see that HAMAS still follows every word. Mon 02 Mar 2009 00:43:26 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=81#comment231 The War on Capacity;-(ed Mon 02 Mar 2009 00:38:31 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=80#comment230 SKV, "Israel does want to creation of Palestine state. Israel sign tons document on that 'Road map'"Have you read the Road Map? And the Israeli "reservations"?"## The character of the provisional Palestinian state will be determined through negotiations between the Palestinian Authority and Israel. The provisional state will have provisional borders and certain aspects of sovereignty, be fully demilitarized with no military forces, but only with police and internal security forces of limited scope and armaments, be without the authority to undertake defense alliances or military cooperation, and Israeli control over the entry and exit of all persons and cargo, as well as of its air space and electromagnetic spectrum." That's "sovereignty"? More like an open air prison - not very different from the status quo.Israel does not want peace. If she did, it would have happened long long ago. "Israel makes a point of setting prerequisites and believes it has an exclusive right to do so. But, time and time again, Israel avoids the most basic prerequisite for any just peace - an end to the occupation. Of all the questions asked during his Passover interviews, no one bothered to ask Olmert why he didn't react with excitement to the recent Arab initiatives, without preconditions? The answer: real estate. The real estate of the settlements."Salaam, etc.ed Sun 01 Mar 2009 23:57:00 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=80#comment229 SKV, "Just from the top of my head over last 300 yrs:Greek/Turks/Armenians resettled 1,000,000s. Often in extremely brutal way.Russians alone resettled/moved/welcomed at least 6 nations (Jews/Chechens/Osetin/Tatars etc) in last 100 yrs."Ever hear of "Tu Quoque", also known as the "two wrongs" fallacy?Salaam, etc.ed Sun 01 Mar 2009 23:45:35 GMT+1 dceilar http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=80#comment228 The only people who care what the three decades old Hamas Charter says are the Zionists. Hamas have said many times that they support the Arab League proposal. There was a cease-fire proposed by Hamas political leader Khaled Mishal a few days before Israel launched its attack on December 27. Mishal called for restoring the 2005 agreement. That agreement called for an end to violence and uninterrupted opening of the borders, along with an Israeli guarantee that goods and people could move freely between the two parts of occupied Palestine, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.The agreement was rejected by the US and Israel a few months later, after the free election of January 2006 turned out "the wrong way." Source here.Israel and the US do not want peace. Indeed Israel was created by terrorism, martyred and celebrated its terrorists, and continues its terrorism. But what do we expect from terrorists? Its 'heroic' terrorists tried to make a deal with the Nazis! Oh the irony . . . but yet, are we surprised? Sun 01 Mar 2009 19:45:36 GMT+1 Sergey http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=79#comment227 #227 happylaze,You heart goes well ahead of brain.I repeat many time that historical facts allows justify/reject existence of Palestine/Israel. I only refer to history to put Golda Meir word back into historical context. I didn't try to justify existence of Israel. Last time I checked map it was there alone with PA (this is yet to become state)."That you deceiver is because they do not recognise Palestine as existing."Israel does want to creation of Palestine state. Israel sign tons document on that 'Road map' is just one example. Israel maintain close contact with PA administration. They just want to make sure that Palestinian state t become base for next war against Israel. They are ready to negotiate.HAMAS... few nations recognize HAMAS. Because nobody whats to deal with HAMAS as state. Israel may be first on this list, but even Arabs govs keep goooood distance from HAMAS. It has nothing to do with US.I used to saw on daily bases HAMAS/PLO ralyes. Check Y-Tube, because non of 'politically corrects 'news like BBC comes even close to report these rallies. Compare to these Suicide 'Mikey Mouse' look like Zionist clip :). Sun 01 Mar 2009 18:02:48 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=79#comment226 "Today Israel don't called for destruction of Palestine."That you deceiver is because they do not recognise Palestine as existing.And seeing as they don't exist they can't be treated unfairly is the way you seem to think.Go on just say Israel went way overboard in that recent assault on Gaza. Try it you may find some release. It may be good for your soul. if you have one. Sun 01 Mar 2009 16:44:46 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=78#comment225 As for leading nomadic lives. IS THAT ILLEGAL?Does that take away their rights. they still had a territory. So were many native tribes of north America. It was not right to deprive them of that ability. Nomadic life styles are a benefit to the areas.Were they less than us because they didn't try to exist in the same spot all year.What part of Nomad says they have no rights. that they don't exist. that they don't take the same trade routes?Again If you want to say Educate to me you better jump on the camel first. Sun 01 Mar 2009 16:28:22 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=78#comment224 218 SKiV (your version of history is again as one sided as your arguement.I'm sorry that I do not use a pile of bull like you to try to confuse the opposition. I do know about the formation and the area previous to Israel. None of which backs up your argument that they are allowed to behave like murderous terrorists NOW.Yes Israel murderous terrorists. See if they had claimed some moral high ground and been the LESS aggressive nation I would probably be arguing on their side now. They didn'tSo I am not. Now I don't think Hamas behave like saints either."Until 1950-60's nobody spoke to tribes, only Rulers."Last time I looked None of the world speaks to the people. last time I checked I was not invited to any talks about running the country.Leaders get that job.If you had not noticed Quite a lot changed after WW2 .Brits couldn't find a united voice against the jewish tribes of the area.Again who are we to say that tribalism is somehow inferior to big countries , United countries.Do they need a G Washington to unify them in order to give legitimacy to their individual claims?That is like american way that Unions are required in order for having protection at work.Educate your self then(educate means to draw the light out from within, not from zionist websites.)And try getting some morals as well.So where was your service to the country. what was your military background.Amazing how many claiming to be military come here and condone Israel. but then less amazing are those that have come here and said "enough is enough" because they recognise a war crime when it is happening.I say less amazed because I see that most humans want peace. You however seem to think people fight wars that destroy their country because they want to(admittedly after the number of murders and imprisonment Israel has done I would see the anger in gaza lasting a while.)I look and see Israel not realy suffering as hey say. You excuse any behaviour. Sick and twisted And UNEDUCATED. Sun 01 Mar 2009 16:21:47 GMT+1 timewaitsfornoman http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=78#comment223 Ed Iglehart"A parable" Very good and so clear cut... to some. But there are Ugasians, the displaced British, the outsides, insiders, those looking to make a profit, those looking for peace, etc. etc. The one thing the story does not need is Violence!! (so hard to put an end to that). But instead - Compromise!! Call in some Canadian Constitutional Experts. We are masters of compromise.As everyone should know by now.....(my post to you on Healthcare?) Sun 01 Mar 2009 16:08:44 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=77#comment222 So where's he been hiding? Middle East envoy Tony Blair in Gaza for first time " * soldier's story"I wanted to come to hear for myself, first hand, from people in Gaza whose lives have been so badly impacted by the recent conflict," Blair said in a statement....A spokeswoman for the former British prime minister said he had no plans to meet Hamas officials during the visit, scheduled to last several hours and to be followed by a tour of Sderot, an Israeli town hit frequently by rockets from the Gaza Strip."How long has he been in the job? almost two whole years, but I expect he may feel the need of some pretty good body armour to venture into Gaza. And, of course he's uninterested in having any contact with the elected leadership.....I'm sure he'll get a complete understanding of the situation as he tours in his little bubble....Who'll be in charge of security, I wonder.Related: Israel's death squads: A soldier's story Dual standards, anyone?Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peaceed Sun 01 Mar 2009 14:54:02 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=77#comment221 Ms Marbles, "You make them sound like ignorant peasants."If he did, he'd be arguing against himself. Peasant is a term for the settled folk of a place, tribal or otherwise. It's also amusing to find a champion of the Jews using tribalism as a derogative concept....But I suspect that the only folk more immune to irony than Americans might be Zionists, and, of course, American Zionists.....;-)ed Sun 01 Mar 2009 13:52:02 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=77#comment220 SKV (218), "Arabs tend to live semi nomadic life. Turks drove once Advanced Arab nation into stone age with 100's clans and tribes. Turks totally controlled them.Brits had different approach - they liked local self ruling communities "Another historical document The Hope Simpson Report, found the Palestinian Arabs living and farming in mostly settled communities, and goes some way in describing the forms of traditional tenure.A few simple facts:1. For more than 1000 years, Jews were a small minority of the population of Palestine.2. By 1946, this minority had grown to constitute 33% of the population of Palestine.3. Jewish landownership was less than 7% of Palestine, but this included 12% of the "cultivable" land.Of course, you may consider the official documentation behind these facts to be obscure, "hand-picked" or whatever, but then you would, wouldn't you?Salaam, etc.edA parable Sun 01 Mar 2009 13:46:41 GMT+1 allmymarbles http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=76#comment219 215, SKV."Britsh always were in search of political representation for what today we call Palestinians. Arabs on these land weer more like bunch of tribes and clans. In fact every time Palestinian Arabs had to speak in single voice they found themselves badly divided."You make them sound like ignorant peasants. What most people don't know (because of the media and propaganda) is that the Palestinians were intellectual leaders in the Arab world. As an example, if an upper-class Arab wanted a fine tutor to educate his children, he chose a Palestinian. Sun 01 Mar 2009 05:18:44 GMT+1 Sergey http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=76#comment218 216. happylaze "...Hamas rejecting Israel as a nation..."HAMAS charter calls for total Israel detraction. While Jews often refering themself as nation of Israel. AFAIK HAMAS using narrow reading of word Israel - as state.Today Israel don't called for destruction of Palestine. Even when Zionists considered creation of the single state they didn't use chance to kicked out Palestinians at least 3 times. Sat 28 Feb 2009 23:44:29 GMT+1 Sergey http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=76#comment217 #126 To happylaze Generally speaking before you dive into heatted debate about Israel it is better to get general idea about history. OTherwise you sound like... happylaze. - arrive to conclusion even before stady basic facts :).Just 100 yrs ago it was common practice:1. Tribe/clan/nation/community would approach Ruler of the land and ask permission to settle. May be in particular area.2. Other way around Ruler of the land may demand tribe/clan/nation/community to relocate or just vacate area.1900-1930 Zionists negotiated settlement permissions with Turks/Brits for some communities. Arabs tend to live semi nomadic life. Turks drove once Advanced Arab nation into stone age with 100's clans and tribes. Turks totally controlled them. Brits had different approach - they liked local self ruling communities (That exactly how Jews lived for centuries). According to Brits, they weren't able to find any voice to represent Arabs. Each tribe/clan liked to speak for themselves and clan next to them :).If you don't like to read, just see 'Seven Pillars of Wisdom'. It is very sympathetic to Arabs. Movie/book gives good insight in general Arabs development in 1910's.Just from the top of my head over last 300 yrs:Greek/Turks/Armenians resettled 1,000,000s. Often in extremely brutal way.Russians alone resettled/moved/welcomed at least 6 nations (Jews/Chechens/Osetin/Tatars etc) in last 100 yrs.Until 1950-60's nobody spoke to tribes, only Rulers. When Jews resettled this land their did it according to custom of these times. Yep, many Jews came in illegally. Especially after WWI and WWII. But they only came because of more general permitted migration. Sat 28 Feb 2009 23:15:31 GMT+1 TrueToo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=75#comment216 123. dceilar,Funny how you keep repeating this line about "12 000 new settlements" after the Israelis pulled out of Gaza. This is what happens when people don't think things through and just blindly repeat the propaganda they've heard or what they think they've heard. I'm wondering how long it's going to take till you realise what you are saying. Sat 28 Feb 2009 19:45:42 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=75#comment215 SKV"She didn't reject them as people or as their right to exist.She just questioned them as an nation. "and Hamas rejecting Israel as a nation is different because.....?Again a bunch of tribes live in an area(correct) and they generally skirmish with each other .Lets say the amazon tribes then.Who are we to take over the whole area and force them to bow to our will that someone else move to their land.Oi Amazon tribes ,leave, we have some people from Texas we want to move into your area. Sat 28 Feb 2009 19:06:04 GMT+1 Sergey http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=75#comment214 #203. publiusdetroitGold Mair said:"There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed."Indeed. You took quote out of context. I assume by mistake :).She didn't reject them as people or as their right to exist.She just questioned them as an nation. Today we commonly refer them to Palestinians and see them as a nation that seeks statehood.But If you check history of Portion and British mandate. Britsh always were in search of political representation for what today we call Palestinians. Arabs on these land weer more like bunch of tribes and clans. In fact every time Palestinian Arabs had to speak in single voice they found themselves badly divided."Palestinians never miss opportunity to miss opportunity" :( (Palestinian saying)Today it is about HAMAS and FATAH. It used to be along tribal and clan lines.This was behind riots in 1930's 1920's as well as rejection UN result ion in 1948.This is one of main reason why Zionist movement was able to settle on this land.It was more or less organized movement that allowed Jews spoke to Brits in single voice. (Brits didn't like it and reach to Arabs and... found bunch of clans...)Check Ilan Pappe "A history of Modern Palestine" very liberal, many examples of Israel crimes. (Bold assumption that you like to study things !)Against your silly quote my silly qoute:PLO (Todays FATAH) commite member Z. Muhsein in 1977:"The Palestinian people does not EXIST. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israelfor our Arab unity. In reality today there is NO DIFFERENCE between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism."This quote as cheap as yours while both are true.Educate yourself dude! Sat 28 Feb 2009 18:31:08 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=74#comment213 213 I have. and if that stuff does go I will know why.Every time you have turned up before post start disappearing, normally the ones closer to the beginning of the discussion and then you start making stuff up about the posts that have by then been referred.Just an observation. I would also suggest that you may have challenged a few and the mods have not seen it your way. hence your anger that some are "still there"though to be honest re reading the post I sent that was modded I believe I understand why it was.and as such did not try to repost it.I will not apologise for accusing you as I have because it is still a valid criticism of you. Maybe it is only coincidence .like the coincidence that Russia tried to fly into canada just as it happens on the day Obama was there. Sat 28 Feb 2009 18:29:18 GMT+1 TrueToo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=74#comment212 Happylaze, try to emerge from your paranoia. I don't "refer people to the moderators," as I've pointed out a few times. I prefer debate to censorship.You might have noticed that all the other rubbish you have written in the last few hours is still here. I don't "like" any of it. And that vile post at 203 is also still here.The moderators can also refer comments. Ever thought of that? Sat 28 Feb 2009 18:08:25 GMT+1 TrueToo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=74#comment211 It took a while to sink in but I believe this is the very first time I have seen the War on Terror mentioned by the BBC without enclosed it in sarcastic, distancing quotes. Apart from that, nothing much has changed here in my absence. Still the usual Israel-bashing crowd busily at work, going off the topic in order to indulge in their obsession.Actually, it isn't that far off topic. Israel is in the front line in the War on Terror and there certainly ain't no end in sight. Sat 28 Feb 2009 17:19:23 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=73#comment210 too wrong is here so whats the point he will just refer people to the mods when he does not like a comment. Sat 28 Feb 2009 17:18:02 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=73#comment209 I don't care who is in charge in GAZA.If Idiots like you had not told the PLO to go to hell . tried to divide the PLO just when it was getting around to your idea's more, hadn't then shot the Israel leader looking for peace.there would be no hamas. Just as if everyone had helped Israel and none had been killed in the Holocaust (by germans not palestinians) there would have been no excuse for the "stern gang". (strangely though, they were emigrating then claiming ownership and were not locals, which seems they have no right).Israel has behaved like terrorists we support them and that is not right.Israel does not let them live in peace. Look at Ireland. Release the prisoners. open the sea routes open the border to egypt.Agree that the principle of a free Palestine and let them actually have it.then there will be peace.Your military service (if you really were) has twisted your mind to one of war. and at no stage has any one said they wish Israel's to die or that it is good, right.It is not. but if there is a terrier yapping at my heals and a bull charging I would shout "BULL" not "terrier". Sat 28 Feb 2009 17:14:14 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=72#comment208 While my point it cost Gaza much more. If you love your own kin you have to stop.That does not make us any better than them. If Israel loves it's people it could seek peace. Just because they loose fewer people does not make that easy for those Israeli's that DO lose someone. Again YOU ARE SICK Sat 28 Feb 2009 17:03:24 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=72#comment207 This post has been Removed Sat 28 Feb 2009 17:01:15 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=72#comment206 201."You cannot get over the fact that IDF has upper hand in military conflict. "SKIVVY.What part of "I do not believe that because you have more and better guns you are right""Having more weapons does not make one Right."" there is no MORAL superiority to having more guns.""america supplying guns does not lend moral authority."To say that war is about making up the rules is fine. but then do not expect a vote on the UN security council is you will not obey the rules. You carry on like a cretin here."1. You just mark area with big sign in Arabic/Hebrew/Inglish - SHELTER."DID YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENED TO THE UN COMPOUND?You are again telling bald faced lies if you think putting shelter on the roof would stop the Israeli's.ALL of your arguments are cretinous. no one can intervene without Israels permission.That would be like letting Saddam call the shots in GW1.No different. He should according to your rules be able to say "get out I won" stop helping them"That is Israels stance now.Now many in the world (un ) have said that Israel has not kept up to the agreements made. the only country preventing the UN having teeth is the USA. SO THAT IS WHY ALL THOSE PEOPLE WANT TO KILL AMERICANS.They already want to kill the invaders (Israel). But now by siding with the invaders america is a target as well.As it should be.Might is not right and Killing innocents is not OK because you are Israeli."BTW You don't need concrete to build shelter. "BTW a tent wont stop phosphorous or cluster bombs.Writing on the wall does not matter to Israel." IDF has room to improve but HAMAS is by far the biggest criminal in terms of Palestinina sufferings."bit like "that damn tart was dressed provocatively".Again go to church seek redemption or something you are sick. Sat 28 Feb 2009 16:49:21 GMT+1 TrueToo http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=71#comment205 96. publiusdetroit wrote:The Jewish people have broken into the home of the Palistinians.I guess you got your history from a Palestinian school textbook – one with no mention of Israel on maps of the area. In fact, since Ancient Israel Jews have always lived between the Jordan River and the sea. And when the UN came up with the idea of Partition into Jewish and Arab states, Jews were already a majority in the area set aside for them. Study some real historical texts.203. publiusdetroit,Your ignorance of history is quite impressive. In fact, it is Israel's Arab enemies who closely resemble the Nazis, with their obsessive desire to destroy the Jews through all the unprovoked wars and continual terror against Israeli civilians. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem met Hitler and planned a "final solution" for the Jews of Palestine. Hezbollah does the Nazi salute. And Hamas has the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews in its Charter. It must be hugely frustrating for the Arabs to have failed so miserably in all their attempts to destroy the Jews in the past century. I almost sympathise.The Jews "went meekly to their deaths?" I guess you have never heard of the Warsaw Uprising. What you know about this subject could fit into the head of a pin. Sat 28 Feb 2009 16:45:35 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=71#comment204 Eric Fosse on use of DIME weapons in Gaza"At a conference on ‘Deconstructing the War on Terror’...The panel had many excellent speakers but Robin tells me that he was most impressed by Dr. Eric Fosse’s presentation which, contrary to what one would expect, was more than an account of shambles that is Gaza’s healthcare system. Fosse presented a sophisticated political analysis that explained Israel’s objectives behind the assault and the events leading up to it."Check it outed Sat 28 Feb 2009 14:26:29 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=71#comment203 On the matter of self-identity, I commend this blog, and the author's book, which I have just finished reading. Simply brilliant!"Robin Yassin-Kassab was born in Britain to a Syrian father and English mother (and grew up partly in Scotland). He graduated from Oxford University and travelled extensively, working as a journalist in Pakistan before moving to Oman where he now teaches English."He now lives in Scotland. Check out the blog.Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peaceed(Some tears ago, the author handed me a copy of this as we sat by a pleasant campfire...) Sat 28 Feb 2009 13:35:16 GMT+1 publiusdetroit http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=70#comment202 Ref 202 SKV_USAIn 1970 Israel PM Golda Meir said:"War will end when Palestinians lear to love their kids more than to hate us".That's funny. In 1969 Golda Meir stated:"There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed."Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969So how can a people who do not exist learn to love their kids more than they hate Israel? Golda must have been a confused old dame. Or a blood-thirsty tyrant.But, or course, these people do exist. They keep fighting the thieves who stole their land. They would rather die than be slaves of the Israelis."We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves."Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for theRe-election of General Shlomo Lahat, themayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.It does not matter what political party the Palestinians choose to follow. Eretz Israel is on a mission of genocide. Hamas is only the most recent excuse the Israelis use to justify their genocide. Just like the Nazis made excuses for the need to slaughter the Jews.The difference is that the Jews walked meekly to the slaughter. The Palestinians stand and fight. Sat 28 Feb 2009 05:11:11 GMT+1 Sergey http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=70#comment201 To #196. publiusdetroitGood, HAMAS did exactly what you said:"HAMAS fought IDF until death with a dreadful resolve"Do you know outcome?It cost another 1300 Palestinians lives. But you really don't care as long as HAMAS 'punish' IDF.In 1970 Israel PM Golda Meir said:"War will end when Palestinians lear to love their kids more than to hate us".Sorry guys but you still hate Jews more than love next to kin.99% of your post here is about to justify HAMAS actions as retaliation to IDF 'crimes'.While my point it cost Gaza much more. If you love your own kin you have to stop.Don't make equal sign between HAMAS and Gaza!Nazi were democratically elected in Germany in 1930's. They cost Germany 17,000,000 lives and ashamed country. But Nazi were gone and Germany revived as one of the best countries in the World.I really keep hope for Gaza, but HAMAS must go. Sat 28 Feb 2009 03:54:42 GMT+1 Sergey http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=70#comment200 #193 Hey happylaze,You cannot get over the fact that IDF has upper hand in military conflict. It is irrelevant why HAMAS cannot protect own people. You keep repeating that it is not fear for IDF use powerful weapons while HAMS down to AK-47 and home made rockets. It is not a sport tournament. If HAMAS cannot match IDF it must not provoke/engage in conflict. War is not about fair game."War is is about impose your rules on opponent."Gen. David PetraeusThat exactly what IDF does.Any responsible government must put own people life above political/economical gains and protect civilians by all means. But if means are exhausted government must surrender. That another thing that you fail to get over:Does any military/economical gains justify HAMAS rocket fire?They only make sense as propaganda especially if IDF retaliation end up in civilian casulties. BTW You don't need concrete to build shelter. 1. You just mark area with big sign in Arabic/Hebrew/Inglish - SHELTER.2. You don't put firing position within ~1000m.Why HAMAS didn't do this? In contrary HAMAS routinely put firing position next to improvise shelters like schools.IDF has room to improve but HAMAS is by far the biggest criminal in terms of Palestinina sufferings. Sat 28 Feb 2009 03:39:47 GMT+1 freeclench http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=69#comment199 PALESTINIANS GO HOME.-FreeClench Sat 28 Feb 2009 01:46:39 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=69#comment198 Those who won't look won't seeSalaaaamed Sat 28 Feb 2009 00:50:57 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=69#comment197 196 well said pub Fri 27 Feb 2009 23:29:12 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=68#comment196 The west bank has another border not controlled by Israel.That would make them more able to fend in desperation for themselves and be able to buy some cooking oil lets say.Not so easy when Israel has blockagded all your people.Divide and Conker. Fri 27 Feb 2009 23:28:42 GMT+1 publiusdetroit http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=68#comment195 Ref 192 SKV_USAIf you were to break into my home to take from me everthing I own; bring terrible harm upon my family; burn down my house; eat my dog; I would fight you until my death with a dreadful resolve. Your military expertise would not help you. I would not just go away quiet.The Jewish people have broken into the home of the Palistinians. Do you expect them to be any less dreadful in their resolve?After paying a visit to Palestine in 1891, the Hebrew essayist Achad Ha-Am commented:" Abroad we are accustomed to believe that Israel [Palestine] is almost empty;nothing is grown here and that whoever wishes to buy land could comehere and buy what his heart desires. In reality, the situation is not likethis. Throughout the country it is difficult to find cultivable land which isnot already cultivated." Fri 27 Feb 2009 23:11:16 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=68#comment194 179 on the short skirt. Yea I live in eugene land where the women don't need(legally) to wear a top.but either the skirt or the topless will get you thought of as a whore by many in many parts of the USA.They certainly would be offended if their kid dressed that way. Fri 27 Feb 2009 23:06:34 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=67#comment193 "Jews and Palestinians"but we keep hearing there is no Palestine. Fri 27 Feb 2009 22:59:19 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=67#comment192 lol SKV I would say your argument is silly."1. Rocket are not efficient because IDF provide shelters and protection. They still good enough to paralyze communites. "So the Israelis are better because they use effective bombshttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7836869.stmIf the weaponry that was used against the people of Gaza was used on Israel I doubt many of the bunkers would survive.(I don't know I have not seen them)One thing is for sure and try to follow because I think you are deliberately missing the point I already made about this.Hamas has No money or materials to build bunkers. they are not just prevented from crossing into Israel , they are prevented from receiving (or sending) goods in and out by sea. Which given no mandate apart from the "we are Israel and will do what we want" mandate is piracy. that is their coast not Israelis. Patrol it for arms yes keep the Israelis out of it yes.You keep saying why don't they build shelters, again I think I should assume you are hard of hearing, WITH WHAT?"You still cannot get around that HAMAS has no military gains. Rocket are all about keep world attention on Gaza and price for this propaganda machine is Palestinians life!!!"So they are losing militarily which means bomb them to hell because they are not good enough???Rockets were instead of suicide bombers.They hit way fewer people.Those rockets are crap to aim and the fact that hey hit civilian people by what they must consider good luck(as in hitting anyone)(did you see the footage of the guy running away from the bomb ducking where if it had been an Israeli bomb he would have been blown apart for quite a spread), as opposed to misdirected deliberate precision bombing .It is no different. morally speaking. at that stage I start to say "who is the bully here?"Hamas who were elected (sorry)?You think so it seems. That is why I think your argument is silly.As to hamas laying down weapons.Because they don't they are evil.they are losing suck it up.Their people probably voted for them because they to do nt htink Israel should have the rights of a nation.That is how they are treated and the rule normally works out as "do unto your neighbours as they do to you"So Hamas cannot recognise Israel until Israel behaves in a manner for long enough that the people of Gaza will not continue to vote for people that do not accept Israel.And comparing Hamas to Hitler while excusing Israel of all responsibility is a joke, a very sick and twisted joke.The mods would delete any further comment. Fri 27 Feb 2009 22:56:03 GMT+1 Sergey http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=67#comment191 #191. publiusdetroit Great collection.I accept first 2 quotes the last one sound way too stupid. Like Zion protocols."Every time we do something you tell meAmerica will do this and will do that . . . I want totell you something very clear: Don't worry aboutAmerican pressure on Israel. We, the Jewishpeople, control America, and the Americansknow it."If you go through original historical source you will find tons of ugly quotes for any more or less historical significant person. I red enough 'criminal' Zionist's quotes and even more Palestinians :(. Bottom line:Israel don't teach hate at schools or TVs (there are few exceptions). Check PA school program or Gaza TVs...My points:1. Two nations must find way how to move forward TOGETHER and history doesn't help here.2. From my military expertise HAMAS deliberately puts own civilians under IDF fire. I see only one reason for this - fuel PR campaign. I found this particularly disgusting to say at least.3. I see inconsistent but proven record of Israel & FATAH efforts to find peace. I saw none from HAMAS. Fri 27 Feb 2009 22:23:48 GMT+1 publiusdetroit http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=66#comment190 SKV_USA"We must use terror, assassination,intimidation, land confiscation, and thecutting of all social services to rid theGalilee of its Arab population."Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"" The present map of Palestine was drawnby the British mandate. The Jewish peoplehave another map which our youth andadults should strive to fulfill -- From theNile to the Euphrates."Ben Gurion"Every time we do something you tell meAmerica will do this and will do that . . . I want totell you something very clear: Don't worry aboutAmerican pressure on Israel. We, the Jewishpeople, control America, and the Americansknow it."Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon,October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, asreported on Kol Yisrael radio.The "high moral ground" of Israel. Fine nation of people. You should be very proud of your defense of such kind people, SKV. Fri 27 Feb 2009 20:46:13 GMT+1 chinaliver http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=66#comment189 of course,obama should firstly solve america's economic problem,not the other way aroud. Fri 27 Feb 2009 20:44:32 GMT+1 Sergey http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=65#comment188 #183 happylaze "stop rockets and live with no hope because we bloody well won't let you. live without your family because we killed them in the rubble of your farm that we destroyed.AND ENJOY IT AND SMILE OR WE WILL KILL YOU,oh and your not allowed to have a business"IDF didn't bother to wipe Gaza clean for 40 yrs and even vacated Gaza as recently as 2004. War is ugly, but there is always a peace on another end of war. Whole world waiting to revive Gaza and Palestine, the only problem blood trusty fanatics who hijack Gaza and put their ideas above own people. Fri 27 Feb 2009 20:38:44 GMT+1 Sergey http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=65#comment187 #185 happylaze,Nice silly try. We should forgive any crime that cause less deaths that bad drivers.IF bad drivers will halt community it will amount to terror and we will use cops. IF drivers are foreigners we call in N.Guards. 1. Rocket are not efficient because IDF provide shelters and protection. They still good enough to paralyze communites. You mistaken cause and effect. Israel caged Gaza, after Palestinians used to used open borders to infiltrate Israel. So Israel put fence around. It came handy to blockade hamas. Again first was hamas action and after that Israel response and poor Palestinians caught on the middle. Same story with W.Bank Israel put fence in response to suicide attacks.You still cannot get around that HAMAS has no military gains. Rocket are all about keep world attention on Gaza and price for this propaganda machine is Palestinians life!!! Fri 27 Feb 2009 20:30:08 GMT+1 Sergey http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=65#comment186 #181 happylaze,You, agreed multiple times that HAMAS don't have resource to protect own people. That the most important function of any goverment - protect own people. If government fails on that it must go...we know why HAMAS in this position - because of Israel action. After all they wage war and Israel push HAMAS well beyond the point that any government will seek peace.But HAMAS is not really a government it puts Israel detraction above own people life and keep fights despite losses.HAMAS weakness is not excuse to put own people in danger. But you seams also don't care about Palestinians you more concern about Land.HAMAS by far the biggest Gaza tragedy as much as Nazi was for Germany. Hitler also was democratically elected and cost 17,000,000 German lives. Fri 27 Feb 2009 19:49:50 GMT+1 timewaitsfornoman http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2009/02/the_end_of_the_war_on_terror.html?page=64#comment185 happylazeI see that you are on a roll. Noticed you were shouting at someone. Who is #158? Oh! appears to be me! Fri 27 Feb 2009 19:38:39 GMT+1