Comments for http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html en-gb 30 Wed 06 May 2015 15:04:51 GMT+1 A feed of user comments from the page found at http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html magnanimousrogera http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=99#comment301 Re my #300 above.More information on the Big Mac Index can be had here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index Tue 06 Jan 2009 16:17:29 GMT+1 magnanimousrogera http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=99#comment300 Re my 299 above.More information on the Big Mac Index can be had here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index Tue 06 Jan 2009 16:17:11 GMT+1 magnanimousrogera http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=99#comment299 I have been following the discussion on PPP between Happylaze and ||1622 which has become rather heated on one side. At the risk of further angry posts, might I suggest another perspective that might help to throw more light on the subject. Without being rude, the position espoused by ||1622 is rather more academic than can be understood by the average person.The Economist (a London-based weekly economic magazine distributed throughout the world) has a more simple explanation regarding PPP. They call it "The Big Mac Index".They use the cost of a Big Mac say, in the US, and compares what the cost of a Big Mac should be, say, in Nigeria, given the difference in the cost of living and the actual cost in that country. They apply the principle to many countries' economies and illustrates clearly how PPP (or the "Big Mac Index") works and how it is distorted by regulation (imposed by politicians).Since these are simple but practical examples of how PPP works, a clearer picture might emerge. Check it out. You will find it most helpful.It is no accident that Economics is called "the dismal science". Economic principles are misinterpreted and corrupted by politicians who have no idea about the subject since most of them are lawyers, which is why it is very hard to convince those who have never studied basic economic principles. Most people judge the subject based upon their own experiences which are clouded by the fact politics has interfered and distorted the market, e.g. with customs tariffs, sales tax and other market-distorting mechanisims..I would be interested to hear any constructive comments rather than abuse but if abuse it is, so be it. Tue 06 Jan 2009 16:13:14 GMT+1 magnanimousrogera http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=98#comment298 Re #43.Although an American, I lived in Australia for some 18 years so I am very familiar with the Commodore and the Ford Fairlane, in fact I owned a Commodore for a short while (a very short while!). I grant you that the engine and mechanicals of these cars are, or were, very good. My beef is with the quality of the finish. Nothing fitted properly together. Interior panels kept falling off, lights didn't work properly, glove box door kept opening when going over the smallest bump, the exhaust pipe kept falling off and dragging on the ground. You just needed to look under the hood to see that the panels has slots which enabled them to slide about to get them to, as near as dammit, fit together. Having had Hondas for the last 20 years, everything just works. Look under the hood and there are no adjustable slots. Everything fits exactly. I have just sold my 18-year old Honda Accord (with over 315,000 kms on the clock on the same engine) which I bought new in 1990 and bought a CRV (to accommodate my four labradors). The finish is unbelieably good. Both these cars were built in Thailand, 80% from locally manufactured parts. Honda and Toyota now export their cars made in Thailand to Australia.If GM, Ford and Chrysler had been able to offer the quality of finish that Honda and Toyota have done over the years, they would not be in the position that they are today.Just my 2 c. worth. Tue 06 Jan 2009 14:10:53 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=98#comment297 Foxes guarding our hensPeace and porned Sat 20 Dec 2008 23:53:15 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=98#comment296 296 I'm still laughing thanks Ed. Sat 20 Dec 2008 19:00:24 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=97#comment295 Hindsight of foresight? "Seven years ago, well before Bernie Madoff had been accused of fleecing investors of $50 billion in a massive Ponzi scheme, Barron's questioned his remarkable investment performance. One of our staff writers, Erin E. Arvedlund, talked with experts who were highly skeptical about Madoff's claimed results. One financial adviser that she quoted had pulled his clients' funds out of Madoff's shop for exactly that reason. Here's the story, excerpted in almost its entirety. (Erin was recently interviewed on National Public Radio about her story. Here is a link to the interview.)"Ah, Prometheus!ed Sat 20 Dec 2008 16:03:59 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=97#comment294 294lol oh he's so funny I'll give him a billion. Sat 20 Dec 2008 07:56:53 GMT+1 dceilar http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=97#comment293 Hey, it's Bernard 'The Ponz' Madoff!Oh Happy Days Fri 19 Dec 2008 19:26:43 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=96#comment292 Basic building blocks for a pyramid...Bricks and mortared Fri 19 Dec 2008 17:07:22 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=96#comment291 291 lolSorey too implie yu wasn't smawt;) Thu 18 Dec 2008 15:37:59 GMT+1 dceilar http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=96#comment290 #287 happylazeI suppose if we are content in admitting we are dummies then we accept that there is always some smart alec ready to con us. So we are naturally wary of some get rich schemes and the smooth talking son of a guns that come with them.You don't have to be smart to be cynical.Cynicism seems to be a great leveller. lol Thu 18 Dec 2008 15:30:29 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=95#comment289 from the same article comes this gem of a question .that guy was lucky he was not addressing me.“So, just how corrupt is America?”Oh boy where to start.how about police sit on bikes all day collecting fines and not solving crimes, because they get paid indirectly from the fines.for us minions that never go near the wall St Or the number of people in jail because there is money in housing prisoners.Answer to the question should really be"no more than any other third world country" Thu 18 Dec 2008 15:30:24 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=95#comment288 288lol ED it is a real interesting list.how many were " free masons " I wonder?I wonder how many will be drinking silver filled vodka this year? Thu 18 Dec 2008 15:25:19 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=95#comment287 Dceilar,There are a lot of "N/A" entries ("not available"?) in that list. An interesting set of folk, all in all...Peace and secret handshakesed Thu 18 Dec 2008 15:11:54 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=94#comment286 dceilarinteresting reading.good stuffwhy is it so many smart people cannot see what us dummies see , until it is too late. Thu 18 Dec 2008 15:07:32 GMT+1 dceilar http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=94#comment285 #285 EdIt looks like the amount of money expressed in that WSJ article only (sic) amounts to $27bn!! That's only just over half the amount he swindled. Makes you wonder who else was conned, or are some not being truthful about their exposure. Thu 18 Dec 2008 14:22:23 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=94#comment284 A sucker born every minute! Madoff's "Marks"As old as the pyramids....greed breeds gullibility.;-)ed Thu 18 Dec 2008 13:24:26 GMT+1 dceilar http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=93#comment283 And in the same article @ 283 is this little gem:I have no sympathy for Madoff. But the fact is, his alleged Ponzi scheme was only slightly more outrageous than the "legal" scheme that Wall Street was running, fueled by cheap credit, low standards and high greed. What do you call giving a worker who makes only $14,000 a year a nothing-down and nothing-to-pay-for-two-years mortgage to buy a $750,000 home, and then bundling that mortgage with 100 others into bonds - which Moody’s or Standard & Poors rate AAA - and then selling them to banks and pension funds the world over? That is what our financial industry was doing. If that isn’t a pyramid scheme, what is? Thu 18 Dec 2008 10:03:16 GMT+1 dceilar http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=93#comment282 Apologies if you have already read this, but I came across this op-ed piece from the NYT by Thomas Friedman regarding American banking corruption that I think is worth reading.One of Hong Kong’s most-respected bankers, who asked not to be identified, told me that the U.S.-owned investment company where he works made a mint in the last decade cleaning up sick Asian banks. They did so by importing the best U.S. practices, particularly the principles of “know thy customers” and strict risk controls. But now, he asked, who is there to look to for exemplary leadership? Thu 18 Dec 2008 09:55:48 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=93#comment281 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7786813.stmkevin connoly not matt frei Thu 18 Dec 2008 07:42:16 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=92#comment280 on the economics debate"If I had a dollar for every news story in which the golden rule of investment has been dusted off and repeated over the last five days, I would be able to pay back Bernie Madoff's investors myself."matt frei bbcI suspect the same would apply to the economists this year. Thu 18 Dec 2008 07:36:09 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=92#comment279 Gerkins are even smallerlol Thu 18 Dec 2008 07:25:51 GMT+1 timohio http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=92#comment278 re. 277. David:I remember completely astonishing my toddler son by digging potatoes out of the ground. I think his jaw literally dropped. I suspect it was the last time I really impressed him :-)We usually eat from the garden from the spring through the fall. The menu depends on what is ready to harvest. In many ways we have a kind of Depression-era lifestyle, with computers grafted onto it. I sort of overdid it on okra this past summer, so we ate a lot of that until I couldn't look at it anymore and we started giving it to the neighbors. Some summers it's zucchini or beans that happens with.American pickles are not actually baby cucumbers. They're a variety of cucumber that never gets longer than what you see in the jar. I grow them because I think they taste better when fresh. Gerkins are even smaller. In the Midwest, pickling cucumbers are called pickles, even if they haven't been processed in brine. The mysteries of American vernacular language. Wed 17 Dec 2008 21:29:42 GMT+1 Gary_A_Hill http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=91#comment277 timohio (#276), even in California we import produce from Chile, Mexico, and elsewhere when it's out of season or otherwise unavailable here. Wed 17 Dec 2008 21:05:17 GMT+1 David Cunard http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=91#comment276 #276. timohio: "For people who are used to food shipped long distance, it can be a revelation to taste something fresh. Even potatoes taste different and have a different texture when they are fresh."Nothing quite like those very small, new potatoes which can never be found in a supermarket; fresh boiled with just some butter. But mature potatoes can be stored all winter in sacks and in the dark. My father was a keen gardener (in the UK) and kept us in seasonal vegetables (and flowers) all year long. He designed his vegetable garden so that there were early and late varieties, although, as Ed remarks, there was occasionally a glut of, say, beans (runner beans, not the kind known as French beans) - but these could be preserved with salt. Like most of the British, we did not then have a refrigerator, let alone a freezer, but still managed to have balanced diet the year long. As a boy and young adult, I was accustomed to having really fresh vegetables - picking and shelling peas and ten minutes later, into the pot and thence our stomachs! We didn't have chicken, but relatives did, and the eggs would be fresh every morning.Pickles - the word has become misused, since pickling is preservation. Think of pickled onions and pickled eggs, both particularly British. I don't think I ever saw American pickles (baby cucumbers) in Britain although today they may be available, since everything else American is. But not my own favourite! Wed 17 Dec 2008 20:45:29 GMT+1 timohio http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=91#comment275 re. 244. David_Cunard:I was responding to your statement that "since the advent of the railroads, America has always transported its food long distances." The first boom in railroad construction in the US happened from the 1830s to the 1860s. By and large, agriculture was still local during this period and would be for nearly a century. Chicago didn't become a meat-packing center until the 1860s. Cattle were shipped by rail to Chicago from rail heads in the west and and for quite a while the only meat that was shipped long distance was canned meats (remember Spam?). Other than that, for quite a while I think the only long distance transport of food was the shipment of grain, for which storage wasn't a problem. American soldiers in World War II were dreadfully familiar with canned meat, powdered eggs, and powdered milk. The episode from East of Eden you cite was an example of why lettuce was not generally shipped long distances in the early 20th century.The big boom in long distance transportation of food came after World War II, which in my terms makes it relatively recent. I came after World War II myself, and I like to think of myself as relatively recent. There are a lot of foods commonly in supermarkets today that I quite clearly remember being expensive rarities in the winter when I was a child.But yes, I agree that the average consumer today expects all fruits, vegetables, meats, etc. to be available any time of the year, and doesn't think about what it takes to make that happen. I have nothing against farmers in Chile, but I really don't think that shipping fruit in December from there to Ohio makes a lot of sense. I'll eat my Arkansas Black apples and enjoy the seasonal variation in my diet. If I want to have fresh fruits and vegetables year-round, I can always brave the smog, the drought, the earthquakes, the brush fires, and the mortgages and move to California.For people who are used to food shipped long distance, it can be a revelation to taste something fresh. Even potatoes taste different and have a different texture when they are fresh. I started vegetable gardening in a big way when my son was young, so he could know what fresh food tasted like and where food actually came from--the earth, not the supermarket. He's now a young adult and is very health-conscious and environmentally aware, so I guess I did the right thing.By the way, some pickles, called refrigerator pickles are not fully processed and must be refrigerated. I used to make those but don't have the time now. And commercial pickles in jars do need to be refrigerated once the jar has been opened. These aren't the real brine-cured pickles you may be thinking of. Wed 17 Dec 2008 18:01:59 GMT+1 seanspa http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=90#comment274 "I'm sure there's a wealth of detail on the internet."Ah, I get your point. Who controls that wealth? I remember when typing 'famous french victories' into google gave back something unexpected. We all know that wikipedia is not necessarily accurate. The internet is used to manipulate and misinform us. Exploit us if you will. Wed 17 Dec 2008 17:34:26 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=90#comment273 261 just because something is ubiquitous ,does not make it right, as it happens.just that it is encountered a lot.And I have NO doubt there are worlds of idiots out there.the denial of global warming WAS ubiquitous.belief in the wmd's was ubiquitous belief in GW was ubiquitous in the states (for a while after 9/11)the belief that Anti semite only means against Jew seems to be ubiquitous the though that the earth was flat was ubiquitous .but wrong Wed 17 Dec 2008 15:31:43 GMT+1 dceilar http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=90#comment272 #261 ||1162I just don't see how it contradicts my statement that the distribution of wealth has more to do with productivity and less to do with exploitation.It looks like you need to reread your Marx. Wealth is created from ownership or control of the means of production. Which is based on exploitation if my memory serves me well. Unfortunately for brevity I won't go into detail, but I'm sure there's a wealth of detail on the internet. Wed 17 Dec 2008 13:47:36 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=89#comment271 "261. At 11:20pm on 16 Dec 2008, ll1162 wrote:Irrelevant. That's your response. I have showed you how ubiquitous the definition of productivity is amongst experts who study these statistics, and you say irrelevant? I read your article. I did not find much to disagree with. I just don't see how it contradicts my statement that the distribution of wealth has more to do with productivity and less to do with exploitation."because it points out that productivity is measured in stupid ways.read it again. Wed 17 Dec 2008 00:40:26 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=89#comment270 s far as the toilets go, if people become dissatisfied with them, shouldn't sales drop off?Ha lets see NO.Because they need to crap. but I was talking sinks and went into some length about it in bathroom suites not BOGS. BATHROOM.a room with a bath. Nah just being provocative but in the UK it is considered common to refer to the BOG as the Bathroom.If you do that in my bathroom you would get kicked. still just humour. but seeing as you bring that up . why have all in the same room?becoming popular in new houses but then americans seem to like privacy everywhere but their bogs.http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080820110255AAExa6E(a = druggies can be seen, not a lot of people know that)Council estates before choice in architecture figured it out. one BOG , one bathroom.Two people can do two different things at the same time. smart people back then.Plus you can have a shower without smelling someone else's smells. Which you would think would be real popular here in the nasally intolerant states.(in this case with good reason sometimes;).but I have digressed. back to that bathroom sink flow problem. How often have you discussed your "faucets" the frequency of blocking.I bet word does not spread very quickly. and would point out that sometimes that means people will buy them but regret them but not be able to pay to have the expensive "new" troublesome unit replaced.I also suspect if you went to the manufacturers and said " every year for 5 years now I've had to xclear this thing .What gives? I never had to do that with the old one(ps kitchen sinks are even worse in the states but I won't go further on that).I want my money back take you piece of crap."They would look at you and fill a toilet while laughing at you."TOO LATE MATE."Eventually given peoples desire to seek better products they will figure out that these new things are crap, but then the old ones are no longer made , the factory was closed down and the employees are working at wally world now. Wed 17 Dec 2008 00:36:45 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=89#comment269 David," How did the "Wild West" survive without refrigeration?"My mother used to say "artificial ice" was what enabled the settling of Florida....Grizzly'll be OK with his deepfreeze, so long as he's got a windmill to power it, or even a source of natural gas..., and anyone who grows vegetables (or kills game) will know there are periods of glut...Peace and self-relianceed Wed 17 Dec 2008 00:30:19 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=88#comment268 P.S. in true full cost accounting, when all "externalities" are internalised and fully accounted, there is virtually no room for "profit", and thus, "All profit is Nature's loss." -- Arne Naess Peace ant honest accountinged Wed 17 Dec 2008 00:24:18 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=88#comment267 Mining and drilling have very little to do with farming anyway ""and even less to do with sustainability. They (like industrial agriculture) are "extractive" industries, which actually "produce" nothing.From your source:"Labor Productivity refers to the quantity of output produced by a given quantity of labor input. "So it varies directly with mechanisation and the amount of extra-metabolic energy consumed. A bit like GNP, which counts all economic activity (including war, pestilence, car crashes, ambulance journeys, firestorms, etc. as positive.Just another measure for those who believe in infinite growth in a finite system..."Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. --Kenneth Boulding"Peace and true productivity (including externalities)ed"Much of the damage done to the environment may be a result of externalities. An EXTERNALITY can arise when people engaged in economic activity do not have to take into account the full costs of what they are doing. For instance, car drivers do not have to bear the full cost of making their contribution to global warming, even though their actions may one day impose a huge financial burden on society.ExternalityAn economic side-effect. Externalities are costs or benefits arising from an economic activity that affect somebody other than the people engaged in the economic activity and are not reflected fully in PRICES. For instance, smoke pumped out by a factory may impose clean-up costs on nearby residents; bees kept to produce honey may pollinate plants belonging to a nearby farmer, thus boosting his crop. Because these costs and benefits do not form part of the calculations of the people deciding whether to go ahead with the economic activity they are a form of MARKET FAILURE, since the amount of the activity carried out if left to the free market will be an inefficient use of resources. If the externality is beneficial, the market will provide too little; if it is a cost, the market will supply too much...."The Economist"Externality" also includes the fact that all extractive industries consider all natural resources "free" and only count the cost of "getting" them. They are presumed to be "free gifts" of Nature, as is (in general) the repair of the damage involved in their getting and use and ultimate disposal. This is one of the major flaws in so-called Neoclassical economics. Wed 17 Dec 2008 00:19:15 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=88#comment266 but you need cheese making skills Wed 17 Dec 2008 00:15:18 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=87#comment265 if milk gets old you make cheese.mmmmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheese Wed 17 Dec 2008 00:14:57 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=87#comment264 263 Ahh DC that comment about refrigeration is so true, EGGS.in the UK they came on the shelf here in the fridge.is that because they are "fresh eggs" .Now come winter it is nice to have some saved up cause the chicken quits layin. smoke jerky is one way of keeping meat.but a bit tough.but grizzly just implied he might need to be a survivalist to survive the economists. Wed 17 Dec 2008 00:12:17 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=87#comment263 distribution of wealth has more to do with productivity and less to do with exploitation. OK, new topic didn't realise you had moved on from americans using hugely disproportionate amount of resources.or in standard models america holding disproportionate wealth.I really am fed up with your smoke buddy so whatever. Wed 17 Dec 2008 00:02:07 GMT+1 David Cunard http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=86#comment262 #117. Jeebers76: "113, uhm, you do know that using the refrigerator/freezer is an inherently practical act when trying to preserve food, don't you? Would you rather that meat go to waste? If being wise is "so American", then I'm proud of it!"Not if you're going back to nature it isn't - #102. AmericanGrizzly had implied that he was a survivalist, huntin', shootin' an fishin' to put food on the family table. Under those conditions, a freezer is entirely inappropriate.Americans refrigerate everything, much of it quite unnecessary. Even pickles (a form of preservation) are put in the fridge along with things like mustard and ketchup. How did the "Wild West" survive without refrigeration? This is not to say that I disapprove of it - I have a full size freezer and refrigerator (energy efficient) in my own kitchen, but if I was foraging for food and growing it on my own land, I wouldn't need it - it would be fresh into the pot. Milk can be drunk direct from the cow - and it doesn't need to be chilled before the next lot is available. Tue 16 Dec 2008 23:56:10 GMT+1 ll1162 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=86#comment261 "problem is americans approach marketing differently. they believe that you can say what you like if the other is sucker enough to believe it."I'm sure used car salesmen have the same reputation in the U.K. as they do in the states. As far as the toilets go, if people become dissatisfied with them, shouldn't sales drop off? Surely the problem is self-correcting. Word of mouth spreads the news that American toilets are crap and then people stop buying them... Tue 16 Dec 2008 23:31:25 GMT+1 ll1162 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=86#comment260 Irrelevant. That's your response. I have showed you how ubiquitous the definition of productivity is amongst experts who study these statistics, and you say irrelevant? I read your article. I did not find much to disagree with. I just don't see how it contradicts my statement that the distribution of wealth has more to do with productivity and less to do with exploitation. Thats why all those news articles, all those government bureaus of labor statistics, thats why they are all concerned when labor productivity slumps. The economy tanks. You are so unreasonable it is unbelieveable. you somehow know better than everyone else... you have some insight that thousands of experts producing hundreds of pages of research, not just decades ago but RIGHT NOW, today, don't have. Remarkable. Tue 16 Dec 2008 23:20:48 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=85#comment259 258 thankyou. Tue 16 Dec 2008 23:01:59 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=85#comment258 254 irrelevant decades of research decades ago.255 Irrelevant.Most of the scientists working on a solution do not think that america is the innocent you try to portray when taking this discussion up.On american durable brands ideas. the bathroom sink (which better than many american kitchen sink at least has an overflow).A tube to a sewer a plug on a chain.Now that's too old for americans we have to have a lever so we do not have to get wet.That lever pushes the plug up, and the water tries to drain past the workings .So when the lazy(not this lazy) gets a blocked drain the plumber drives out to their house and pulls the gunk out and replaces the part.How is that productive. but to my point here (not yours, given up arguing when you cannot return the courtesy of reading the article mentioned):);)Those plugs are probably popping up all over europe . people are probably thinking "Great" no wet hands at the sinklol. No one told them it blocks up easy because the first principle of sanitary design is not to create obstructions to the flow.Then they can say "crappie American rubbish"coming here ruining our sinks with their lies.yea people can reject americanism. but they are open and don't do it until they see that there is something not so good about it.Some cases it is great like rootbeer.smetimes it is crap like american plumbing.problem is americans approach marketing differently. they believe that you can say what you like if the other is sucker enough to believe it.now in the UK they have advertising standards that would stop many american ads being shown .they also have this thing where is you sell them too much crap while always pretending how great it is they eventually start down the "american crap "road.with the sink example it would be when their granny who lives too far away to help is on the phone complaining about that new bathroom suite put in.But it is OK because by sending someone out to fix junk , or having a return policy that says if it breaks bring it back because they know the goods are basically disposable helps the "productivity" of a nation.You claim to live in the real world but have yet to explain the very real complaint that Brits have over CD prices.Is it because there is no way. and that you still talk a lot of Theory.PS I think somewhere I recommended roofing in solar .Way before you showed up But then I'm not realistic or into reality. Tue 16 Dec 2008 23:01:36 GMT+1 ll1162 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=85#comment257 "Have you read that letter yet. "the farmer in chief" one?"No but I will right now. Tue 16 Dec 2008 22:47:12 GMT+1 ll1162 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=84#comment256 South-Western EconData -- Labor Productivity Labor Productivity refers to the quantity of output produced by a given quantity of labor input. Let's first consider the microeconomics of Labor ...www.swlearning.com/economics/econ_data/labor_productivity/labor_productivity_definition.html[0812.0208] International Comparison of Labor Productivity ... Abstract: Labor productivity was studied at the microscopic level in terms of distributions based on individual firm financial data from Japan and the US. ...arxiv.org/abs/0812.0208 Tue 16 Dec 2008 22:46:39 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=84#comment255 252 Have you read that letter yet. "the farmer in chief" one? Tue 16 Dec 2008 22:36:27 GMT+1 ll1162 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=84#comment254 The first several hits from a google search on "labor productivity":www.bls.gov/lpc/ www.bls.gov/news.release/prod2.nr0.htm en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_productivityen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Productivity News results for labor productivityCanada.com Labour productivity unchanged in Q3: StatsCan - Dec 10, 2008OTTAWA — Statistics Canada reports labour productivity did not change much in the third quarter, extending the weakness that began in the second quarter of ...The Canadian Press - 33 related articles »Canadian productivity continues to lag - Canada.com - 33 related articles »UPDATE 1-Canada productivity flat in Q3 2008 - Reuters - 33 related articles » The Daily, Wednesday, December 10, 2008. Labour productivity ... After declining for four consecutive quarters, labour productivity in the business sector remained unchanged in the third quarter of 2008.www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidien/081210/dq081210b-eng.htmTAKING THE MYSTERY FROM LABOR PRODUCTIVITY One of the more significant economic statistics to be released of late concerns labor productivity. This is an interesting topic and widely non-understood ...members.cox.net/lardaro/labor_prod.htm Tue 16 Dec 2008 22:30:40 GMT+1 ll1162 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=83#comment253 "Your measure of productivity is just wrong .""not your , money equations that frankly are not that great anyway."Man, they're not MY definitions or equations. I don't know why I haven't pointed this out yet. They were developed by brilliant, educated, intelligent men, who conducted DECADES of research. Men like Alfred North Whitehead, John Meynard Keynes... etc. They're use is ubiquitous. Do a google on labor productivity. Do a google on productivity function. Earlier you talked about academics. THEY developed these ideas, and they are much smarter, and have years of experience to back up their arguments. Like I said, just do a google on productivity function. You will see it talked about it economic journals, newspapers, online encyclopedias, everything. Like I said, ubiquitous. Tue 16 Dec 2008 22:26:01 GMT+1 ll1162 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=83#comment252 "But what is it that stops Afganistan or Indea selling their Hashish here. Laws. not supply demand exchange rates etc."True, if marijuana is decriminalised, something I strongly support, than the market for it WILL be governed by supply demand exchange rates etc. Tue 16 Dec 2008 21:50:21 GMT+1 ll1162 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=83#comment251 "That 3 % growing is really very reliant on the others that mine drill build the stuff that make it possible to allow only 3% to grow."No man. Its the other way around. The ability to grown our own food with 3$ of the population is what makes it possible for people to work at minging and drilling and all that. Mining and drilling have very little to do with farming anyway so Im not sure of the relevance of that. "but where do those service economies get their food, if no one grows it.""Your measure of productivity is just wrong ."No, its not. Its what your government uses, its what my government uses, its what the U.N., the E.U., the World Bank, and the IMF uses. Everyone else must be wrong, and you right. That sounds likely."Global warming is real and so is the possibility to do something regressive in technological terms to benefit the world."Yes, it is real, but the possibility to do something about it wont come from pushing back the clock, or "regressive" in technological terms, it will be progressive, ie, solar, wind, and others. Like the high distance lines people have been working so hard to develop, that will make it possible to transport electricity developed from solar panels in Arizaon over 4,000 miles. Most of the scientists who are working on solutions to global warming are working from the same paradigm of productivity I've been talking about. The few who want to turn back the clock have very little chance of succeeding, not because we're holding them back, but because they aren't based in REALITY. Global warming and alternative energy are an active interest of mine. And people like the nobel prize winning physicist who just got nominated for Energy Secretary isn't a neo-luddite, I can promise you that, but people like him are the future of our survival and the solutions to our problems. Tue 16 Dec 2008 21:47:01 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=82#comment250 250 never though you were .but where do those service economies get their food, if no one grows it.PS no one in europe smokes that american weed . that stays in the country.But what is it that stops Afganistan or Indea selling their Hashish here. Laws. not supply demand exchange rates etc.I certainly was not questioning beyond your statements that really are based not in reality but in the restricted framework of pretending that there is no alternative.There are many around the world ready to start the process but because of Neeeyyyy sayers they get no money to fund research in that direction.That 3 % growing is really very reliant on the others that mine drill build the stuff that make it possible to allow only 3% to grow.That same technology, mining, oil extraction etc is what is doing the planet a disfavour, it would seem to most these days.That 3% is erroneous , in the old days etc there were some things that worked better.I was shocked to hear that crop rotation (taught at primary school in the uk when I were a sprog) is a thing of exception here in the US.Go read the "farmer in Chief " letter.It will be easy to find just google.Is it productive to take fruit from the valley here ship them to mexico and bring them back?Your measure of productivity is just wrong .That is the reason we got right here to this situation.People in Power getting it so wrong and just not accepting that academics have done a lot to show this is not working.Global warming is real and so is the possibility to do something regressive in technological terms to benefit the world. "Advancement" should be considered VERY carefully at his stage.OR we could just spend all the energy and time fighting wars over water etc because we could not be bothered to do something earlier.We will have to advance some issues and technology just to avoid that bloodshed but the GOAL should be sustainability. not your , money equations that frankly are not that great anyway. Tue 16 Dec 2008 21:12:48 GMT+1 ll1162 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=82#comment249 "Your "value" system is showing. A "service" economy doesn't fill bellies. It's clear that you're a "true believer", but could you produce as much as a potato?"No, it's not. You have no idea what my moral values are. I don't believe in laissez-faire capitalism, but I'm not a communist either. I believe mixed economies work best. And I do care about the environment and inequalities in wealth, but in order to address those issues, you have to start from a paradigm that is reality based, with an accurate understanding of what causes those inequalities in wealth. And a service economy does fill bellies, with a fraction of the labor that an agricultural economy does. Thats what frees up labor to manufacture goods and perform other services. The United States has about 3% of its population devoted to agriculture, yet we grow enough for our own population and then some. And I do know how to produce a potato, interestingly enough, but I enjoy growing tomatoes and chile peppers much more. But thats just it. I dont NEED to know how to produce a potato because a small fraction of my countrymen can produce enough to feed everyone. In agricultural countries people frequently starve to death, because they rarely grow enough to live above a basic subsistence level. And when the crop doesnt come in this harvest... fill in the blank. I think you're being sanctimonious, with this romantic vision of pre-industrial societies and how wonderful they had and have it, ignoring the hardships in their daily lives caused by subsistence living... ie. famine, disease... Who made you the one who gets to decide that their life is so grand... that they should continue living that way. I'm not some kind of cold-hearted capitalist pig, as you know doubt think I am. Tue 16 Dec 2008 20:25:36 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=82#comment248 David, "I have no doubt that before the last drop of oil is extracted and used, some alternative will be found, but not in my lifetime. Human ingenuity has solved such problems before and I expect it to do so again."and Human ingenuity is the source of such problems. Your faith is touching"The layout is attractive and the text fairly rolls along, identifying three fallacies of the mainstream economic and technological model:1. "Marie Antoinette Economics", (the assumption of substitutability)2. "Custer's Folly", (the technological cavalry will save us from ecological disaster), and3. "False Complacency from Partial Success" (or "Not Beating the Wife As Much As Before")"And, then there's this, "but I fear that the public expects to be able to buy, for example, strawberries every day of the year. Not only in the USA but in Europe and South American as well."Wherein, as earlier with regard to the public "demand" for suburban housing, you suggest that such things are "inevitable" and thus not worth resisting (or even discussing) ""Eventually this mechanistic line of thought brings us to the doctrine that whatever happens is inevitable. Actually, this stark determinism is altered in general use to a doctrine that is even more contemptible. Every bad thing that happens is inevitable. For every good thing that happens there are mobs of claimers of credit. Every good and perfect gift comes from politicians, scientists, researchers, governments, and corporations. Evils, however, are inevitable; there is just no use in trying to choose against them. Thus all industrial comforts and labor saving devices are the result only of human ingenuity and determination (not to mention the charity and altruism that have so conspicuously distinguished the industrial subspecies for the past two centuries), but the consequent pollution, land destruction, and social upheaval have been "inevitable." "Thus President Clinton (for whom I voted) could tell an audience of "farmers and agricultural organization leaders" in Billings, Montana on June 1, 1995, that the American farm population now is "dramatically lower, obviously, than it was a generation ago. And that was inevitable because of the increasing productivity of agriculture."--Wendell, of courseand, in similar vein, ""But for the time being (may it be short) the corporations thrive, and they are doing so at the expense of everything else. Their dogma of the survival of the wealthiest (i.e. mechanical efficiency) is the dominant intellectual fashion. A Letter to the New York Times, of July 8, 1999 stated it perfectly: "While change is difficult for those affected, the larger, more efficient business organization will eventually emerge and industry consolidation will occur to the benefit of the many." When you read or hear those words "larger" and "more efficient" you may expect soon to encounter the word "inevitable," and this letter writer conformed exactly to the rule: "We should not try to prevent the inevitable consolidation of the farming industry." This way of talking is now commonplace among supposedly intelligent people, and it has only one motive: the avoidance of difficult thought. Or one might as well say that the motive is the avoidance of thought, for that use of the word "inevitable" obviates the need to consider any alternative, and a person confronting only a single possibility is well beyond any need to think. The message is: "The machine is coming. If you are small and in the way, you must lie down and be run over." So high a level of mental activity is readily achieved by terrapins."-- from “Life is a Miracle”Peace and the miracle of lifeed Tue 16 Dec 2008 20:11:15 GMT+1 Gary_A_Hill http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=81#comment247 David_Cunard (#44), it's not merely that produce is picked green. Another reason for blandness is that commercial varieties are chosen for appearance and shipping and handling qualities before taste. There are at least a hundred varieties of apple in the US, but only a few in supermarkets. The best apples I ever ate were my grandmother's june apples right off the tree (I'm not sure of the precise varietal name). The best I ever bought were Firesides from the farmer's market in St. Paul, Minnesota. I've never encountered a Fireside anywhere else. Tue 16 Dec 2008 20:10:16 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=81#comment246 242 class ed Tue 16 Dec 2008 19:55:46 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=81#comment245 David, "That can be said of the UK equally as of Los Angeles; I haven't checked the statistics, but my guess is that more food is imported into Britain than it produces."Indeed so. The UK government proudly proclaim GB to be 60% self-sufficient in foodstuffs, while not emphasising that this has declined from around 72% since 1994/5....Some analysis And, from DEFRA Self-sufficiency Avg 1996-8; 2006; 2007 (est)% of all food 68.6; 59.5; 60.5;% of indigenous type food 82.2; 72.5; 73.9As I noted earlier, it can be said of almost all the densely populated areas, but especially of the conurbations. Actually, I'm surprised that the UK is as high as 60%, and I'm a bit sceptical of the statistics...Peace and allotmentsed Tue 16 Dec 2008 19:54:56 GMT+1 Gary_A_Hill http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=80#comment244 Ed (#242), that item is great!By the way, I meant "drought" of course, not "draught." Speaking of "draught," however, I just read today that the EU has decided not to outlaw the pint in the UK, at least for "draught" purposes. That's a relief. Tue 16 Dec 2008 19:54:22 GMT+1 David Cunard http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=80#comment243 #237. timohio: "I think it's an overstatement to say that "since the advent of the railroads, America has always transported its food long distances." How then do you explain beef from Texas, pork from Chicago, green-grocery from California, oranges from Florida and California, poultry from god-knows-where, and so on? The average consumer doesn't go to "small local markets" but dashes in the local supermarket. Despite the rise of companies such as Whole Foods, the supermarket holds sway for the majority, and most will not care whether the goods are from five miles away or five thousand.With regard to taste, here in California we can actually get fruit which tastes as it is supposed to, but I understand what you say about it being picked green and therefore being tasteless. I'm all for eating things which are strictly "in season" which was how I was brought up (in Britain) but I fear that the public expects to be able to buy, for example, strawberries every day of the year. Not only in the USA but in Europe and South American as well. Tue 16 Dec 2008 19:07:08 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=80#comment242 238Good example Tue 16 Dec 2008 18:51:41 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=79#comment241 Gary, "Most of the buildings had lawns, with built-in sprinkler systems. At night, the sprinklers would come on and run so long that the excess water would run off into the streets. Nobody ever used these lawns for anything, of course. They were only for show."That reminds me...;-)ed Tue 16 Dec 2008 18:39:11 GMT+1 David Cunard http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=79#comment240 #232. Ed Iglehart: "consider not just cutting off the aqueduct, but also the fuel which powers all that imported food. Then it would matter where one resides!"That can be said of the UK equally as of Los Angeles; I haven't checked the statistics, but my guess is that more food is imported into Britain than it produces. Salad greens, tomatoes and so forth which are seasonal there can be found all year round. How much wheat is imported to make flour and bread? And we know that bananas, oranges and lemons are not native to England, Scotland or Wales, so they too have to be imported. The West Coast of America is not the only user of fossil fuels to feed the population!I have no doubt that before the last drop of oil is extracted and used, some alternative will be found, but not in my lifetime. Human ingenuity has solved such problems before and I expect it to do so again. Tue 16 Dec 2008 18:35:13 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=79#comment239 Tim "until relatively recently most American cities were surrounded by truck farms, which would bring in fruits and vegetables to markets in the city."Indeed, but even that was a substantial increase in the agricultural 'footprint' available to a city - allowing a growth in population which will be difficult to sustain in the absence of powered transport.A rading of Aldo Leopold's seminal Land Ethic may be illuminating, " It is inconceivable to me that an ethical relation to land can exist without love, respect, and admiration for land and a high regard for its value. By value, I of course mean something far broader than mere economic value; I mean value in the philosophical sense.Perhaps the most serious obstacle impeding the evolution of a land ethic is the fact that our educational and economic system is headed away from, rather than toward, a intense consciousness of land. Your true modern is separate from the land by many middlemen, and by innumerable physical gadgets. He has no vital relation to it; to him it is the space between cities on which crops grow. Turn him loose for a day on the land, and if the spot does not happen to be a golf links or a 'scenic' area, he is bored stiff. If crops could be raised by hydroponics instead of farming, it would suit him very well. Synthetic substitutes for wood, leather, wool, and other natural land products suit him better than the originals. In short, land is something he has 'outgrown.'"Now which poster here does that recall...?Peace and the Landed Tue 16 Dec 2008 18:34:33 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=78#comment238 236 and after all the biggest wealth in the us was it's homes, Or so it would seem by the present state of affairs.Dc al above have explained that what you are saying is you just think people cannot live a sustainable life.I have a solution, mandate it by law, make it illegal to not be, or work to that stage. as California has tried to some extent(more than most) ,but only really on emissions. Tue 16 Dec 2008 18:21:42 GMT+1 Gary_A_Hill http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=78#comment237 timohio (#237), water is a big deal throughout the American west. There are shortages in California every few years, depending on winter precipitation. They don't do much about it, though. There's always a lot of talk directed at individuals to conserve, although there's very little to be saved there, comparitively.For example, when I moved to California several years age, we were in the midst of a draught of a few year's extent. I worked in an industrial park typical of the Silicon Valley area. Most of the buildings had lawns, with built-in sprinkler systems. At night, the sprinklers would come on and run so long that the excess water would run off into the streets. Nobody ever used these lawns for anything, of course. They were only for show. A very small proportion of companies removed their lawns, replacing them with native semi-desert landscaping. Tue 16 Dec 2008 18:07:34 GMT+1 timohio http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=78#comment236 re. 224. David_Cunard:I think it's an overstatement to say that "since the advent of the railroads, America has always transported its food long distances." Some food, yes, but until relatively recently most American cities were surrounded by truck farms, which would bring in fruits and vegetables to markets in the city. I couldn't point to when this all changed, but I know there has been an increase in long distance shipment of food since my childhood (I'm in my 50s). There are now people who don't understand the concept of out-of-season. And since all of their food, in season or not, is picked green and shipped, they can't taste any difference anyway. Personally, I try to buy in small local markets that work with local growers, or in farmers' markets. And I try to buy seasonally. I think one reason for the obesity problem in this country is that so much of the food is tasteless because it wasn't ripe when picked. We pile on fat and salt and sauces so it will have some flavor.In response to your statement about it mattering little where one resides, that depends on cheap energy for shipment and a lack of environmental controls. If Americans ever had to pay the true cost (production, labor, shipment, and environment) for their food, a lot of long-distance shipment would wither away. The same goes for cheap goods produced in China. If the Chinese start paying their workers decently, paying for food and product safety controls, and paying for environmental controls, their products wouldn't be so cheap any more. And a lot of the shrinkage in income in America has been masked by the influx of cheap goods from the Far East.Between the smog, earthquakes, and water resources it seems like Los Angeles is permanently on the edge of some environmental disaster. Isn't there a lot of competition over water resources between farmers and the cities in southern California? Tue 16 Dec 2008 17:44:43 GMT+1 Gary_A_Hill http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=77#comment235 ll1162 (#166), I expect that the theory of PPP works better for oranges than it does for land and shelter. Tue 16 Dec 2008 16:26:07 GMT+1 chronophobe http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=77#comment234 Why are the Japanese brands just so damn good? Maybe it has something to do with the underlying culture. Some good articles in CSM here.Meanwhile, from the food for thought department, an interesting factoid: "According to the Financial Times, it often now costs more to ship a container by road 100km from a port to its final destination than it does to move the container by sea from China to Europe." So is that why Chinese garlic costs 1/10th the price of local organic? More on that, and energy saving alternatives for shipping, here.Of course, there's always the days of future past alternative. I want on that wine/whiskey run something terrible . . . And just another evocative wind power image here.Yours,Foremast Jack Pinko Tue 16 Dec 2008 16:15:47 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=77#comment233 A blast from the past (circa 2001)Fools and their moneyed Tue 16 Dec 2008 15:37:00 GMT+1 north_of_49 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=76#comment232 Don't you know god is Chinese that's why it was done in 6 days.I live in the great white north. When I purchase something I try to buy local & Canadian made goods or failing that American made. Trouble is that if one looks hard enough most of the American goods are made offshore. From the number of failures I have usually just past the end of the warranty they break. None of the breaks are cheap or easy tox because they are a permanent sub assembly and you have to buy the whole thing. My guess is that as long as the failures occur at an acceptable level determined by some numerical model and the bottom line the manufacturers don't give a damn. Consumer brand loyalty is a waste of time since there is no way of knowing the quality of a new model. The chief concern of most buyers is "how cheap can I get it?". That's why W-mart seems to be such a sucess.It is a sad day when the world's financial situation is largely dependent on how many TV sets in the toilet. Tue 16 Dec 2008 15:33:10 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=76#comment231 David, "So in answer to your question, it matters little today where one resides since virtually everything from around the world is available to those who live in the desert or more fertile lands. Much of Los Angeles would continue to be desert if it were not the importation, by aqueduct, of water. Now if that were cut off, there really would be some changes!"My point, more or less, but consider not just cutting off thee aqueduct, but also the fuel which powers all that imported food. Then it would matter where one resides!The chief enabler of today's wasteful economy is cheap fossil fuel, and only fools believe that is going to last more than a couple of generations at most. The fossil fuel enables not only the transportation, but also the fertilisation of exhausted soils and the mechanical cultivation thereof to such an extent that often much more energy is consumed in the 'production' of food than the food eventually yields....the same idiotic process means ethanol fuel barely breaks even (depends upon assumptions) in terms of energy in versus energy out, but, of course, government subsidy means it's an "economic" goldmine..."It is well understood that nothing so excites the glands of a free-market capitalist as the offer of a government subsidy." --Wendell BerryPeace and true costingsed Tue 16 Dec 2008 13:17:56 GMT+1 Roberto Carlos Alvarez-Galloso http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=76#comment230 I am in agreement that a True American Loves Innovation. Tue 16 Dec 2008 13:03:40 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=75#comment229 "but that is not what this argument is about. It is about why some countries have more material possessions than others."Who appointed you chairperson?"Ravish capacity: reap consequences.Man claims the first a duty and calls what follows Tragedy.Insult -- Backlash. Not even the universe can breakThis primal link. Who, then, has the powerTo put an end to tragedy? Only those who recognizeHubris in themselves."--Garret Hardin Tue 16 Dec 2008 12:53:57 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=75#comment228 "Why do YOU think the poorest countries are poor and the richest are rich? "Might it have just a wee bit to do with exploitation? "...the most striking and immediate effect of the spread of European settlement beyond the boundaries of Europe itself was its lethal impact on indigenous peoples and societies." -- Clive Ponting (A Green History of the World)"Trying to control the world?I see you won't succeed.T'ien hsia shen ch'iThe world is a spiritual vesselAnd cannot be controlled.Those who control, fail.Those who grasp, lose.Some go forth, some are led,Some weep, some blow flutes,Some become strong, some superfluous,Some oppress, some are destroyed.Therefore the SageCasts off extremes,Casts off excess,casts off extravagance."Lao Tzu"The transition from an agricultural economy to an industrial economy. From an industrial economy to a service economy. And the corresponding wealth increases at each level."Your "value" system is showing. A "service" economy doesn't fill bellies. It's clear that you're a "true believer", but could you produce as much as a potato?Peace and potatoesed"Our model citizen is a sophisticate who, before puberty, understands how to produce a baby,[or parrot economic theory] but who at the age of thirty will not know how to produce a potato"-- Wendell Berry Tue 16 Dec 2008 12:48:59 GMT+1 tiptoplisamich http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=75#comment227 #137 wrote:*About the same year I recall that one ownerhad so many problems with his Ford Pinto thathe and his friends dug a huge pit in front ofhis dealership and held a burial ceremony.When the dealer was asked about quality, hereplied, "What do you expect for $3000?"This was in the early seventies, so that wasa considerable amount of money.Another dealer proclaimed, "They're like shoppingcarts, some are good and some are bad."*Guns:I wish I had owned a brass pair at the time to bury my Escort; alas, I had payments to make on the darned thing. (I did eventually trade it for a new Chevy Cavalier, which dropped a transmission at 35K miles---gotta love the US carmaking 80's huh?)The dealers' comments, and the general attitude of automakers throughout the 70s-early 90s, point to a comment I made earlier. The quality of some US cars may now be in line with foreign competitors, but the quality of US automaker reputation will continue to hinder them---and perhaps sink them. As you said, $3000 was a lot to pay in the 70's. To be told---Well, guess you got a bad grocery cart---customers don't forget attitudes like that.I guess one positive thing for the present is that the Big 3 have so much competition in the US auto market now that I can't even imagine a dealer using the grocery cart analogy today. Honda/Toyota/KIA/Saturn/VW, one or more of these dealers is usually right next door. Tue 16 Dec 2008 09:12:03 GMT+1 ll1162 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=74#comment226 "$13,807,550,000 worth of goods and services. "Actually, should be $13,807,550,000,000. Tue 16 Dec 2008 09:03:03 GMT+1 ll1162 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=74#comment225 "Also how that relates to your argument that you claim counters"Americans, being but 5% of the world's people, control 32% of the entire world?s wealth, "" I haven't attempted to counter it all. I've attempted to explain it. Your saying its unfair. Cry me a river. I'm not going to argue about value judgements. I'm interested in factual judgements. Positive statements, not normative ones, thats my line of work.""WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE ECONOMIC THEORY TODAY GIVEN THE RECENT SUCCESS OF THOSE THEORIES""And they say anti-intellectualism is an uniquely American phenomenon. Pffft."What exactly does America produce?"$13,807,550,000 worth of goods and services. Our main industries are petroleum, steel, motor vehicles, aerospace, telecommunications, chemicals, electronics, food processing, consumer goods, lumber, mining, and defense. We are also a net exporter of agricultural products, especially corn, soybean, wheat, alfalfa, cotton, hay(other than alfalfa), tobacco, rice, sorghum, and barley. Of course, our biggest cash crop is marijuana, estimated to be worth $35.8 billion."WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE ECONOMIC THEORY TODAY GIVEN THE RECENT SUCCESS OF THOSE THEORIES""The recent economic crisis was created by politicians and business leaders, neither of which are particularly known for paying attention to the advice of economists."seems to me it is nothing more definate than casting bones really." You greatly exaggerate the uncertainties and you very well know it. PPP has been supported over and over again empiracally."Now as I say wealth should be measured in other ways."And like I have said, I am attempting to explain why the distribution of wealth using the measurement Ed used. Although hes not clear about it, I assume he wasn't not referring to 5% of people controlling 32% of the world's wealth in terms of happy and loving relationships. "I can't shout any louder.Sorry for being confrontational."Don't be sorry. People often shout when the argument they're making is weak at best and facetious at worst. Seriously now, I'm done with this discussion. I hate having to break everything down for you in the simplest of terms. Tue 16 Dec 2008 08:28:56 GMT+1 ladycm http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=74#comment224 164. At 8:54pm on 15 Dec 2008, marygrav:"Maybe it is only in Vermont that Americans believe in BE FREE OR DIE. But I guess I'm paranoid as usual."If you're paranoid than so am I, because I feel the same way. I think we have reason to be paranoid; sometimes it seems as if everyone is always trying to screw us out of our money, our time, our health and our sanity. Tue 16 Dec 2008 07:37:49 GMT+1 David Cunard http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=73#comment223 #189. happylaze: "DC I think that nothing grows there is the point. If you can't even grow food there how is it sustainable to live there?"That question could be asked of countless countries and towns. What food is grown in New York, London or Tokyo? Britain is far more conscious of "food miles" than we are in the US and I would hazard a guess that most people here have never heard of, let alone understand, "food miles".Since the advent of the railroads, America has always transported its food long distances, refrigerated cars being a boon when they were introduced. You may care to read or see the film of East of Eden, in which a lettuce crop (early 20th century) is sent cross-country but is ruined when the ice melts. For years, New Zealand lamb was sent to the UK by sea in refrigerated containers and today of course, nearly everything is available to any market regardless of the season. Forty years ago and more, cherries and grapes could only be seen at Christmas in upmarket British stores such as Fortnum and Mason or Harrods, whereas today every Sainsburys, Tesco and Waitrose has what were once considered luxuries.So in answer to your question, it matters little today where one resides since virtually everything from around the world is available to those who live in the desert or more fertile lands. Much of Los Angeles would continue to be desert if it were not the importation, by aqueduct, of water. Now if that were cut off, there really would be some changes! Tue 16 Dec 2008 07:00:08 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=73#comment222 221 This whole time I've been arguing the same thing. Productivity determines living standards.It is your definition of productivity that needs addressing.Also how that relates to your argument that you claim counters"Americans, being but 5% of the world's people, control 32% of the entire world?s wealth, "this"A nations wealth and living standards is directly related to its productivity"What exactly does America produce? Tue 16 Dec 2008 06:59:34 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=73#comment221 219 I will. but really how does that take away from the fact that the US consumes so many resources?"which states that exchange rates between currencies are in equilibrium when their purchasing power is the same in each of the two countries."are in WHEN When WHEn. "There are three caveats with this law of one price. (1) As mentioned above, transportation costs, barriers to trade, and other transaction costs, can be significant. (2) There must be competitive markets for the goods and services in both countries. (3) The law of one price only applies to tradeable goods; immobile goods such as houses,and many services that are local, are of course not traded between countries."there are three reasons your ppp is wrong. also guess what CD's still cost more in the UK.As an easy example.and has taken considerably more time than "This can take many years, however. A time horizon of 4-10 years would be typical."I'm glad to have been able to read this lovely in a vacuum theory but really.Now as I say wealth should be measured in other ways." Relative PPP refers to rates of changes of price levels, that is, inflation rates. This proposition states that the rate of appreciation of a currency is equal to the difference in inflation rates between the foreign and the home country. For example, if Canada has an inflation rate of 1% and the US has an inflation rate of 3%, the US Dollar will depreciate against the Canadian Dollar by 2% per year. This proposition holds well empirically especially when the inflation differences are large."". Different methods of calculation will arrive at different PPP rates."seems to me it is nothing more definate than casting bones really.PS that again is an old model "WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE ECONOMIC THEORY TODAY GIVEN THE RECENT SUCCESS OF THOSE THEORIES"I can't shout any louder.Sorry for being confrontational.you make it easy smoke in the eyes is irritating. Tue 16 Dec 2008 06:51:03 GMT+1 ll1162 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=72#comment220 "you tell a lot of story but like your previous incarnations it is all smoke.keep smoking"This whole time I've been arguing the same thing. Productivity determines living standards. Nice rant though. Too bad you can't attack my argument on its merits. All you can say is smokescreens and the like. Men like you who don't respond to reason are the ones who can't be convinced, not I. Exactly why this conversation is over. Tue 16 Dec 2008 06:46:13 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=72#comment219 218 coolyou tell a lot of story but like your previous incarnations it is all smoke.keep smokingA theory and if you read more of your rants those clues like ." differences in natural resources is responsible for some of the differences"a bit more of the truth would help.Theories and quit with the robinson bull how come you cannot explain the reason that those CD's are so differently priced (ie the same despite exchange).Don't try to talk down with the simple story. this shows your THEORY to be what it is , a theory not an absolute.that is the theory of ppp.which BTW has absolutely nothing to do with proving that americans do not use so many resources."Even if I allow that American companies put pressure on your governments to allow them to sell their goods, no one can force you to spend Euros and pounds on our products."I would agree that I as an individual can say no but would add that them oldies that know better and say "stay away from that" and get ignored have little choice.And they will complain about their culture being eroded.this dear memory ridden smoker is where you started on your economic theory."101. At 00:17am on 15 Dec 2008, ll1162 wrote:Like This and this:"Americans, being but 5% of the world's people, control 32% of the entire world?s wealth, "A nations wealth and living standards is directly related to its productivity. Even if we became less productive and therefore reduced our wealth, the rest of the world would not therefore become more wealthy."To which I would say Bull faeces .The rest is smoke. Are you trying to say that IF AMERICA stopped taking the unfair proportion of resources that those people in the countries that suddenly have land to grow food for themselves would not be better off, instead of exporting it to the USA .Ed didn't even mention PRODUCTIVITY but was talking about wealth ( by which he seemed to be talking dosh based on resources).and that so few own so much.and most of them are in the states.How does your theoretical argument about Rob on the Island take anything away from the very basic fact that the US has used a HUGE amount to keep a very few in the excesses they have become accustomed to ?It doesn't. Sorry to bring you back to the beginning but next time try not to assume I wasn't reading your crap. just because I was not commenting.And again "GIVEN THE VERY RECENT HISTORY WHY WOULD I BELIEVE AN 'ECONOMIST'"If they say nothing that makes sense.I would not be surprised if it were not Madoff that wrote your theory.CD in the UK or shove your model.There are plenty of other examples. Even if you prove your model you argument has nothing to do with america taking more than its fair share. there like you i have repeated my self so can now feign indignation at your lack of understanding . Humpf Humpf.Glad I had not chance of convincing you but we all could guess that before you wrote much , .(anyone else recognise this writing style?)lots and lots of waffle distracting from the original statement in order to pretend there was some relevance despite there being none?Hoping the origins of the thread get lost.You really should look at the Blue OINK OINK. Tue 16 Dec 2008 06:34:36 GMT+1 ll1162 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=72#comment218 The following article from the University of British Columbia, Sauder School of Business, explains the theory of PPP much better than I ever could. It also addresses many of your criticisms much better than I can. Don't be stubborn. Read it, it will be worth your while.http://fx.sauder.ubc.ca/PPP.html Tue 16 Dec 2008 06:01:27 GMT+1 ll1162 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=71#comment217 This will probally be my last post. I am tired and am not convincing you of anything, and you are certainly not convincing me. Nor are we any closer to reaching some sort of middle ground or compromise. Tue 16 Dec 2008 05:07:58 GMT+1 ll1162 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=71#comment216 Workers are more productive if they have tools with which to work. The stock of equipment and structures that are used to produce goods and services is physical capital. When woodworkers make furniture, they use saws, lathes, and drill presses. More tools allow the woodworkers to produce their output more quickly and more accurately. A worker with basic hand tools can make less furniture each work than a worker with sophisticated and specialized woodworking equipment. Human capital refers to the knowledge and skills that workers acquire through education, training, and just plain experience. Natural resources are inputs into production that are provided by nature, such as land, rivers, and mineral deposits. Differences in natural resources are responsible for some of the differences in standards of living around the world. The historical success of the U.S. was driven in part by the large supply of land well-suited for agriculture. Kuwait and Saudi Arabia are rich simply because they sit on top of some of the largest pools of oil in the world. Although natural resources can be important, they are not necessary for an economy to be highly productive in producing goods and services. Japan, for example, is one of the richest countries in the world despite having few natural resources. Trade makes Japan's success possible. They import many of the natural resources they need and export manufactured goods. Finally, there is technological knowledge - the understanding of the best ways to produce goods and services. A hundred years ago, most Americans worked on farms because farm technology required a high input of labor to feed the entire population. Today, because of advances in the technology of farming, a small fraction of Americans can produce enough to feed the entire country. This tech. change made labor available to produce other goods and services. Secondary factors that contribute to a country's living standards include its national saving and investment, investment from abroad, the education of its populace, health and nutrition, and political stability. Tue 16 Dec 2008 05:02:51 GMT+1 ll1162 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=71#comment215 212. I am going to try and explain this one more time.I'll use a simple model based loosely on Daniel Defoe's Robinson Crusoe. Robinson Crusoe is a sailor stranded on a desert island. Because Crusoe lives alone, he catches his own fish, grows his own vegetables, and makes his own clothes. Crusoe's activities - his production and consumption of fish, vegetables, and clothing- are a simple economy. What determines Crusoe's standard of living? Productivity- the quantity of goods and services produced from each unit of labor input. If Crusoe is good at catching fish, growing vegetables, and making clothes, he lives well. If he is bad at doing these things, he lives poorly. Because Crusoe gets to consumer only what he produces, his living standard is tied to his productivity. Its easy to see that productivity is the key determinant of living standards and that growth in productivity is the key determinant of growth in living standards. The more fish caught per hour, the more he eats at dinner. If Crusoe finds a better place to catch fish, his productivity rises. This increase in productivity makes Crusoe better off: he can eat the extra fish, or he can spend less time fishing and devote more time to making other goods he enjoys. Productivity's key role in determining living standards is as true for nations as it is for stranded sailors. A country's GDP measures two things at once -the total income earned by everyone in the economy and the total expenditure on the economy's output of goods and services. The reason GDP can measure these two things simultaneously is that, for the economy as a whole, they must be equal. Productivity is determined by physical capital, human capital, natural resources, and technological knowledge. Tue 16 Dec 2008 04:49:43 GMT+1 allmymarbles http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=70#comment214 Fourth try. There was a huge sign on Wall Street that said, "Jump, you bleepers, jump." Quite a change from 1929. Tue 16 Dec 2008 03:58:12 GMT+1 kecsmar http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=70#comment213 MA"...My point is that mechanizing agriculture allows the farmer to produce more faster. How did you miss that?..""....Counties are wealthy according to their ability to produce goods and services....Not only does industrialisation allow for agriculture to produce more faster.."Oh I see!...So, Thailand the worlds largest exporter of rice produces soooooooo much rice because of their ultra modern high technologial industry does it??you keep on coming up with jackanory stories...superb. Better than TV .... Tue 16 Dec 2008 03:51:27 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=70#comment212 this hardly backs up our argument with ED about the FACTshould be your not our Tue 16 Dec 2008 03:45:33 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=69#comment211 196 you try to say I have joined late and have not read up. wrong. yet here you make my point"It is about why some countries have more material possessions than others."I would say that is because some people are not so obsessed with material wealth.You mock me with the comment that I did not mention the Industrial revolution.Which is the bloody point.Do you think the industrial revolution did not take a bit away from Africa.That those working in the mines were better off?that the luddites that broke the spinning jennies were a bunch of terrorist as opposed to people that did not like seeing their jobs taken by machines that killed people.Killed people in a job that had never killed one worker before ' spinning cloth.But now that you are riled you jump in right where I wanted you."Oh wait. I forgot. We must have stole them all.""Maybe. But you're no Aristotle."And your no genius either.this hardly backs up our argument with ED about the FACT that americans use a hugely disproportionate amount of resources.In fact it seems like the argument that occurred here long time back where (probably you) came on with that "America is the most productive nation "Rubbish. Tue 16 Dec 2008 03:30:45 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=69#comment210 207 but you will see some productive people washing their own cloths, but that does not count after all to be real proper wealthy humans you have to Pay someone else to do it for you.or buy a machine to do it for you and hire someone to fill it. That creates wealth in your model. Tue 16 Dec 2008 03:13:40 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=69#comment209 "You have ignored the main premise of PPP, which holds in the long-run and not in the short-run. The prices of CD's will move to eventually reflect the price levels in each country"this is why I think your theory is wrong."eventually reflect the price levels in each country."Hi so eventually a us$15 cd will cost us$15.that is all you have said.British MP have come to the states to try to figure out how come the people of the UK pay so much more for a CD. this is a long term thing.And it screws your"THEORY"Which BTW is not an absolute. it is little better than hypothesis given, again, the lack of insight shown by SOOOOO many economists. Tue 16 Dec 2008 03:10:11 GMT+1 ll1162 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=68#comment208 "After all they could just be the economic equivalent of those that thought the world was flat." Maybe. But you're no Aristotle. Tue 16 Dec 2008 03:09:14 GMT+1 ll1162 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=68#comment207 207. Oh wait. I forgot. We must have stole them all. Tue 16 Dec 2008 03:04:15 GMT+1 ll1162 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=68#comment206 "So, a "good" or commodity is only valuable if it is produced by an industrial method. Since you suggesting a country that produces agricultural goods are something of value but only if it is produced by mechanised means."Not only does industrialisation allow for agriculture to produce more faster, it allows for new goods to be produced that arent at all possible in an agricultural economy. You won't see too many washing machines or vacumn cleaners in Nigeria. Tue 16 Dec 2008 03:03:44 GMT+1 ll1162 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=67#comment205 "If it were the price of CD's in the UK would not be ?15 and the price in the US $15, given an exchange rate of ?1 to $1.75(average ish rateover time)"You have ignored the main premise of PPP, which holds in the long-run and not in the short-run. The prices of CD's will move to eventually reflect the price levels in each country. Of course there is some distortion and their are other secondary factors contributing to the different price levels between countries, but they are of secondary importance to PPP. Tue 16 Dec 2008 02:58:22 GMT+1 ll1162 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=67#comment204 200. I have a feeling you would like to see a return to traditional hunter-gather societies. No doubt about it they were probally the happiest to have ever walked the earth, but I don't see to many people interested in returning to those Happy Days. Tue 16 Dec 2008 02:54:35 GMT+1 happylaze http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=67#comment203 199 kecs,well hmmmmmed Tue 16 Dec 2008 02:54:22 GMT+1 ll1162 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/12/the_durable_american_brand.html?page=66#comment202 "200. At 02:29am on 16 Dec 2008, happylaze wrote:They are creating "wealth""Exactly. Tue 16 Dec 2008 02:53:10 GMT+1