Comments for en-gb 30 Tue 01 Sep 2015 00:27:01 GMT+1 A feed of user comments from the page found at happylaze Happy pinko liberal day up north. Wed 24 Dec 2008 21:15:01 GMT+1 chronophobe Re: 224 Bad Link. Supposed to be Kinks here? Mea Culpa. Re: 227 bluejay60 Great post! Thanks. Yours,Canadian Pinko Wed 24 Dec 2008 17:46:11 GMT+1 happylaze 227 bluejaythe brits have had natural Gas ambulances for years. they work and most houses have Natural gas.GM invented the hybrid but thanks to the knucklehead mentality of america they also buried it.Lol The Japs were not so dumb. Wed 24 Dec 2008 16:49:43 GMT+1 turningblueandgrey Popular Mechanics sounds a bit optimistic about a new bounty of cheap deep oil. Cheap oil is relatively shallow (a mile vs. miles to drill) and the Middle East leads in such resources. Going offshore and then pushing the envelope of water depth just adds to the cost of each barrel extracted. There will be more challenging oil resources developed in decades to come, but they will almost certainly produce gasoline that costs more per gallon than milk, unlike the low prices we've been used to and now see returning after the $4+ per gallon spike. That pricier future oil can still be a source for plastics, fertilizer, medicine, lubricants, and all the other things we need oil for besides cheap gasoline.If there was an oil embargo, we might do what we are doing now - drive less, and there would be an economic incentive to develop harder-to-reach resources in the USA. Until the cost of oil stays high for the long term, such domestic resources would only be developed by government mandate, and many would argue that the extra cost is better spent on other energy programs than a rush for domestic drilling. OPEC wants to raise rates now so they get more revenue, but not so much to cause another shock that wakes up addicts like us to find a new energy source. And now natural gas producers want to form a cartel being cheer-led by Russia.As impressive as the Abrams tank is, I don't think a few MPG on any fuel is a model for biodiesel or ethanol in our future. GM already makes a lot of flex-fuel cars in response to government mandated ethanol or E-85 use. GM also has the new variable displacement V-8s that change the # cylinders in use based on horsepower demand that are pretty smooth, and Honda does this too as a V-3-4-6 engine. I was surprised when my 3-hour drive to a job site in a rented Tahoe got 20 mpg highway with that system in use. In the upper Midwest where propane is used quite a bit, farmer's co-ops and rural propane distributors seem to offer more fueling locations than other parts of the country, and what I've seen there (again, mostly GM car and truck propane conversions) makes me think T Boone Pickens has a point about natural gas as a vehicle fuel (NG and propane leave a lot less carbon residue, so engines & lube oil last longer too!). Wed 24 Dec 2008 07:08:01 GMT+1 politejomsviking This is a technology issue. A lot of the technology has already been developed. In example the M-1 Abrams tank (by all measure a big fast vehicle) uses a flexible fuel system that allows it to burn anything from jet fuel to heavy diesel. Tubo-chargers have been around, since the 1930 I believe and they are replacing gas with AIR, the Turbo is powered by the exhaust, so it is essentually free power. I would like to see more developement of carbon fibre technology and other aircraft technologys (turbo fans, small jet aceleration boost). But the most promising is the bottom of the sea drilling technology, being developed in the United States (See the Magazine Popular mechanics). If the oil production platform is robotic and the at the bottom of the Ocean instead of at the surface there really is no limit to the depth of drilling in the Gulf of Mexico. That means the free world would have access to an almost supply, right here in the US. TThis would effectively collapse the Putin government and Iran economically, because thier economies are so depandent on sellling the energy commodities. Unfortuneately, it would also colapse several US allies like the Saudis and United Arab Emerates, so we have to release this slowly. Maybe initially the US Government should continue to pump large amounts of crude into the Louisiana Salt domes, so we do not destabilise the world. Not least of the problem is how to remove dictators who like to play with military toys like, Putin, Chavez, that nut in Iran, without harming the countries and creating a power vacum. By the way, Putin's claim to the oil in Canada's Arctic is not going to happen without her starting a nuclear exchange with the US, so they may want to pick up the little flag and go home, without the public humiliation. Russias accessable energy supplies are limited by her oil technology. If Russia was really going to be a real player, she would be investing in oil technologys instead of more antique Soviet weaponry. Tue 23 Dec 2008 22:41:56 GMT+1 happylaze like the commies may win after all. Tue 23 Dec 2008 17:08:39 GMT+1 chronophobe Re: 221 VikingToyota does make a nice vehicle the FJ Cruiser, but it like everything needs a bigger engine.LOL ... OK, gearhead. Just remember, as Brother Davies sang it: I love your body-work, but you're really no useHow can I drive you when I got no juice?Because it's stuck in neutral and my engine's got no speedAnd the highways are desertedand the air smells unnaturally clean.. . . There's no more oil left in the wellA gallon of gas can't be purchased anywhereFor any amount of cashYou can't buy a gallon of gasUse that gas wisely, 'cuz it ain't gonna last forever, my motor maniac friend. Yours,Canadian Pinko Tue 23 Dec 2008 16:37:16 GMT+1 luacene #222The opposite could be said for democrats as well Tue 23 Dec 2008 00:52:32 GMT+1 dennisjunior1 Justin:Republicans have always had distrust against unions for most of the past 30 years....The reason: is union members are in favour of the democratic party...most of the time...[this is my own opinion...] Mon 22 Dec 2008 21:55:04 GMT+1 politejomsviking I should clarify, I have a beach house in Florida also, I only want the vette for the non-rusting bodies, by the Gulf of Mexico. I will still keep two Mustang GTs, a jeep a Ford truck and an old Escort. My bike is an Avis Schwarzt BMW K-100 RS. The bike is foreign, but classic. The rest like me bleeds pure Blue Oval.I had to sell a black Mercury Marauder when my Mom had Cancer. It was from Canada and Superchared. I loved that car. Like a cop car on steroids. If you ever see one get it. I had a set of silver metal fangs fabricated for the black metal grill and silver coffin handles replacing the Mercury ones.I really miss that car. What I really want to add to the collection is a Ford GT.Toyota does make a nice vehicle the FJ Cruiser, but it like everything needs a bigger engine. Mon 22 Dec 2008 21:40:00 GMT+1 chronophobe Viking,I'm afraid you're gonna have to get used to the Prius:With the overall decline in combined light duty vehicle sales of 14% from September to October, however, hybrids managed to nudge up their total market share very slightly from 1.45% in September to 1.48% in October.Toyota not only was once again the leader in hybrid sales in October, it increased its combined unit sales to 14,173 from 13,021 the month before, a jump of 8.8%. The Prius did the heavy lifting, with 9,939 units sold (a 21% increase from the prior month), while the Highlander and Rx400h hybrids saw slight declines to 2,330 and 1,904 respectively.November was not as good, I think, but with gas prices falling as they have been that's not exceptional. Now if you think they aren't going to go up again, maybe Oily Cassandra can talk some sense into you. And a Vette? Not. Go Ford or go home.Yours,Canadian Pinko Mon 22 Dec 2008 19:01:34 GMT+1 happylaze but if they don't change the cars they make they won't be making many for very long. Mon 22 Dec 2008 15:03:06 GMT+1 happylaze a knuckle head for surebut thats still better than a bushie. Mon 22 Dec 2008 15:02:31 GMT+1 happylaze 216.the romans built straighter roads than you guys.and boy aren't you a "thinker".and a knuckle-head Mon 22 Dec 2008 14:59:08 GMT+1 politejomsviking Thank you for your comment. I will pass along your thoughts to Senator Wicker next time I see him. It is the opinion of some foreigner that the world's largest highway and cement road system being built in straight lines to speed travel is hampering the ability of the US Auto industry to build cars suitable to drive on twisty little goat trails. Better get with the Germans too, their Autobahn is also designed for high speed travel. Obviously, we should re-tool and build some Trabants, Renaults, Fiats,Yugos and Skodas, so we can capture the valuable third world trade. Maybe we could come up with a space age replacement for the pointy goat hearding stick or your woven reed sleeping matt.Do we need to re-tool Boeing to build only old Soviet Bi-planes or do you think you will be able to handle the US idea about straight cement runways, or will that also be too complicated for you.By the way all cars at Nasscar are the same car, it's called the CAR of The Future (COF for short). Yes, even that great Amerian car company Toyota (ha, ha) has to run the same car. By the way, I can't think of any foreign car I would want to be in on the track at Talladega when a driver of the Calibre of Earnhart or Gordon bumps your bumper at 270 mph to encourage you to get out of the way. Bumping, drafting and sling shotting are all legal, same as on the street.Mazda, Honda, Mercedes, BMW, Volkswagon, Nissan all qualify to compete at Talladega and the Daytona 500, since they have factories here and are therefore domestic manufacturers, but don't. All talk but nobody but Toyota and big 3, running for the big prize. By the way that is a Toyota Prius in the picture on the home page about slumping Auto sales. Predictable, a fad. The Camrys will be around long after the Prius is scrap.You might want to check out Pen & Teller Hybrids on Utube.If I did drive a foreign car it would be a SCION TC (would need chilled NOS system and too many other changes to list), but next years car will probably be a silver Vette with a mirror stripe. Mon 22 Dec 2008 05:49:22 GMT+1 happylaze 213 the fact that she was drunk does not mean the car has good is possible that she was drunk and the car has crap handling .just look at a real test of driving and handling like a rally as opposed to a knuckle-head race with no corners or a big circle race like the pathetically excluding nascar circuit where they cannot let forners compete in case they show american cars are crap.I see ford do well with the Focus Hardly an america style muscle car.Wow look even them french with their surrendermonkey citrons do pretty well. American cars have crap handling that is why they cannot compete well on the world circuit.The reason the feds use them to train is because they have SUCH BAD handling they assume if you can drive one of these you could drive got some bad logic there dud212Pinko that'll do for for the comments. Sun 21 Dec 2008 19:46:01 GMT+1 chronophobe 213 politejomsviking To mess them up with a lot of government interference telling them what to build may be good socialism, but it isn't good sense.Viking dude,OK, I see you are a die hard gearhead, and that's cool. I get my kicks on two wheels, but I understand how you feel. But somehow you are going to have to disabuse yourself of this notion that the Big 3 are messed up because of governments telling them what to produce. In fact, they (the car Co.'s) have been fighting tooth and nail against tougher Federal emissions regulations for years. The result: their lineups are swelled with gas guzzlers that only gearhead guys like you want to buy. And, rental cars, like Chevy Malibus. Compare one of these clompers to an Accord, or a Camry, and tell me Detroit is on the right track. This is going to shock you, but most people don't care how fast their car does the 1/4 mile, or how long it takes to get from 0 to 60, or even if they can mod the thing up and jump it. They commute to work, in stultifying traffic, and want something to get them there and back reliably, efficiently, and in reasonable comfort. Hence the top selling cars in the USA today are the Toyota Camry and the Honda Accord. Prius, Echo, Fit, etc. follow close behind. The Big 3 are asking for billions of dollars of public money because they can't survive without it. Nobody is going to give it to them if they simply promise to provide more of the same. Yours,Canadian Pinko Sun 21 Dec 2008 04:44:48 GMT+1 politejomsviking Read the full article poor Jennifer was drunk, that's why the car is in the powerlines, not handling. The point is even the slower, smaller old Mustang is sufficiently strong enough and yes powerfull enough to put itself up there. Pretty incredible for a car in that price range. If you want to see something even more incredible get ahold of the original movie "Gone in 60 seconds" that Mustang hits more garbage cars than you can count, drives through impossible terrain and does a Mustang jump and is a real car, it was all done by real people. Made before animation.At the Federal Law Enforcement trainig center you know what the cars are racing around the track? Ford Mustangs, Ford Crown Victorias, Chevys.The point is the big three make a good product, at a good price and have saved a lot of weaker companies from going out of business by buying parts or all of the company. SAAB, Isuzu, Mitsubishi, Jaguar all probably wouldn't be around if it wasn't for cash from the big three. To mess them up with a lot of government interference telling them what to build may be good socialism, but it isn't good sense.By the way if are going to jump a Mustang remember no low profile tires, steel wheels and good tires. A shock tower strut brace is a good accessory. Burn premium gas that day! Sun 21 Dec 2008 02:56:37 GMT+1 chronophobe Re: 209 happylazepathetic he must have nothing under his own hood to compensate like this.Vulcan,Do you mean one of these hoods? Cheers,Canadian PinkoPS Viking dude, see, you make it just too easy. . . Sun 21 Dec 2008 01:32:52 GMT+1 chronophobe By the way if you go to the "Pensacola News Journal" Monday, June 30, 2008, you will see Jennifer Beckwith's Mustang (not a GT or even the newer more powerful Mustang) hanging on the powerline support cables. Little actual damage to car, two ripped off plastic bumpers, paint damage and fluid leakage. Try it with your Toyota or Nissan some time and see what the bill is. If Jennifer contacts the Musang Club of America there are probably guys who would fix it for the cost of beer and parts.Viking dude, Isn't the point to avoid hanging one's car from powerlines? Maybe if the Mustang handled better, she could have made the curve, and not put all those people in the dark. I bet the emergency response teams were very amused. As were the 100's (if not thousands) of people whose electric service was interrupted.I am guessing you are a more recent Canadian with a name like Mohammed or Ivan.Now, either you are chain yanking in bad taste, and/or you are a bigot. In either case, statements like that don't look good on you. Surely you can do better? Even the bit about French socialists at the end was a step up. That made me chuckle. Cheers,Canadian Pinko Sun 21 Dec 2008 01:29:28 GMT+1 happylaze The small car fad will pass and having figured out the problem we will sell the technology to the rest of the world. the rest of the world is already years ahead.america is a weak failure in this regard. PS you say ford I suspect Toyota pick ups. Sat 20 Dec 2008 23:51:34 GMT+1 happylaze " I am guessing you are a more recent Canadian with a name like Mohammed or Ivan."and the inpolite vikings comes out of the closet.pathetic he must have nothing under his own hood to compensate like this. Sat 20 Dec 2008 23:50:03 GMT+1 politejomsviking Gas is between $1.42 and $1.54 a Gallon and falling in Jackson, Mississippi. When it spiked to $4.00 a gallon many people panicked and bought a smaller car at an exorbitant price. That said, when America's industrial capacity kicks in, there will no doubt be a serious glut of small, cheap, hardy cars flooding the market just like Ford builds in Germany and England for anybody who wants one.I myself own a small Ford truck (by the way the highest selling small truck in te World is the Ford Ranger).That said anybody who watches the TV show "COPS" on TV, knows how unlikely the Race sequence I described is to be BS. Our roads are wide and have little trafic in Mississippi, nothing but farmland on either ide of the road, so danger is minimal. By the way if you go to the "Pensacola News Journal" Monday, June 30, 2008, you will see Jennifer Beckwith's Mustang (not a GT or even the newer more powerful Mustang) hanging on the powerline support cables. Little actual damage to car, two ripped off plastic bumpers, paint damage and fluid leakage. Try it with your Toyota or Nissan some time and see what the bill is. If Jennifer contacts the Musang Club of America there are probably guys who would fix it for the cost of beer and parts.By the way Canadian Pinko, if you are a native born English Ancestry Canadian you of all people should know how unlikely your cousins to the South ae to be talking "BS" when it come to something like cars or airplanes. We are after all the children of the men who flew those B-17 bomber missions to Berlin in broad daylight when all the rest of the world including those crazy Russians said it was impossible. I am guessing you are a more recent Canadian with a name like Mohammed or Ivan.The small car fad will pass and having figured out the problem we will sell the technology to the rest of the world. By the way if you look under the rear wing of a Mustang GT it says it was made i Canada, is that where I should look for the "structural " damage. Ha! Ha! At least it wasn't made by a French socialist. Sat 20 Dec 2008 21:55:54 GMT+1 chronophobe Re: 203, againAnd furthermore . . . As to your claims about the popularity of domestic pickups, I am extremely sceptical. My understanding is that: "Cars outsold the top-selling Ford F-series truck in May for the first time since 1992, a sign of the rapid shift in customers' preferences from trucks and SUVs to small cars that is forcing painful production cuts and plant closures at General Motors and Ford Motor .For a generation, pickups and SUVs have symbolized a rugged, oversized, no-holds-barred American lifestyle.Tuesday, automakers made it clear that consumers are hitting the brakes on their love affair with the hardiest, roomiest — and thirstiest — vehicles."This from USA Today, updated in June 2008.Unless things have changed pretty radically since then, I'd say your assertion is dated, and/or out to lunch. Yours,Canadian Pinko Sat 20 Dec 2008 19:15:12 GMT+1 happylaze he car left the ground causing it to flip at 100 plus miles an hour into a farmers field. no people like you shouldn't get licences . Sat 20 Dec 2008 18:56:18 GMT+1 chronophobe Re: 203 politejomsvikingA smart man learns from his mistakes. This is not to say the Chevy Camaro and Dodge Chalegers&Chargers are not also good cars.All cars should come with big roll cages, five point seat belts,self sealing gas tanks like fighter planes and a choice of Super charger or turbo charger.Sir,I reckon a "smart man" would not be racing a production car on a public road at 100 mph. Nor would he expect to jump said car and not radically damage it, himself, and any unlucky passersby.As to your apparently undamaged Mustang, you might want to have a mechanic check for major structural damage. That is, of course, unless the whole tale is total BS. Yours,Canadian Pinko Sat 20 Dec 2008 18:43:13 GMT+1 chronophobe Re: 201 OrvillethirdFinally, here's a point which others may not have addressed. How much of the carmakers losses isn't due to unions or to SUV sales declines, but to the financial (i.e. paper) losses by GMAC or Ford Motor Credit?That is a bloody good question. A quick search yielded this CNN article about GMAC trying to restructure the debt on its "ailing mortgage unit." If any of the financial wizards out there have knowledge of how much the crisis at the Big 3 is due to the problems of their credit divisions, please share!My own car buying experience would suggest that making cars is, especially for GM and Chrysler, primarily a pretence for lending you money. Yours,Canadian Pinko Sat 20 Dec 2008 18:37:00 GMT+1 politejomsviking OK, now for the reality. According to AOL News the most popular car in America is the FORD (a big three American Auto company) F-150 Pick-up truck and number two is the CHEVY Silverado pick-up truck(also a big 3 American Auto company). OK, where do the non-union made foreign manufactures that the Republicans in the South financed fall? Dead last!Amongst the least favorite is the Nissan Armada and the Nissan Quest all made right here in Canton, Mississippi, 16 miles from the former head of the Republican National Committees house (currently the States Governor).BY the way before this he was a lobbiest for the Government of Mexico for the NAFTA debacle, so this isn't the first time he has run into a the Union men and women trying to preserve American jobs.We may build Nissans in Mississipi, but we drive GM, Ford and Chrysler Union made vehicles.My neighbors litterally bleed blue ovals, gold bow ties or Ram heads in the South. Ever see the Dukes of Hazzard on TV? There are NO foreign cars in it, that would be correct for the most. We may have to build them to feed our families, but we don't have to love them or drive them Japanese cars.My buddy Tim bought a foreign sports car and I was in My 2008 Mustang GT and we were racing to Jackson and when my car went over the hill it left the ground with all four tires and landed without damage thanks to a solid rear axle and mufflers that were angled upwards just like they always have ever since Steve McQueen showed the world how to do it in the Movie "BULLIT". Nothing but the ussall shower of sparks and the sound of acceleration (turn off Air bags first or they ill deploy). Tim's car was really exciting! The independent suspension tucked the tire of the car under the body when the car left the ground causing it to flip at 100 plus miles an hour into a farmers field. Tim was hospitalized for three months. He bought a Mustang GT with a roll cage with his insurace money though. A smart man learns from his mistakes. This is not to say the Chevy Camaro and Dodge Chalegers&Chargers are not also good cars.All cars should come with big roll cages, five point seat belts,self sealing gas tanks like fighter planes and a choice of Super charger or turbo charger.Everything is better with a hood scoop on it! V-8s forever! Sat 20 Dec 2008 17:50:24 GMT+1 happylaze 199 well said Bluejay Fri 19 Dec 2008 17:06:00 GMT+1 Orville Eastland Oh, everyone says that Big 3 (union) autoworkers make more than their counterparts at Foreign-owned (nonunion) plants. I'm curious- how much do the CEOs of said Foreign-owned companies make compared to the Big 3 CEOs?Finally, here's a point which others may not have addressed. How much of the carmakers losses isn't due to unions or to SUV sales declines, but to the financial (i.e. paper) losses by GMAC or Ford Motor Credit? Fri 19 Dec 2008 00:55:46 GMT+1 Orville Eastland Here's some comments on the auto issue.My home state has 8% unemployment. A car plant one county over may not renew the contracts of up to 733 contract workers. An auto parts plant another county over is offering voluntary severance packages to 1300 workers, much like a plant in another part of our state did to 2100 workers earlier this month. Another nearby plastics plant laid off 28 workers after sales to car companies slowed.You can't blame the unions for these. The plants in question are not in Michigan- they're in South Carolina, where unions are generally considered unwelcome. Fri 19 Dec 2008 00:47:23 GMT+1 turningblueandgrey I am surprised at the well of spite drawn from by both sides of this debate (and my comment is not directed at 198, I am just returning to this thread). On one hand there seem to be "anti-Detroiters", a righteous baby-boomer contingent who equate Detroit with "The Establishment" and bring almost a 1960's level of distrust and disdain for any American automobile. These equate the "Big 3" with poor quality and environmental irresponsibility, and want Detroit companies and management punished.On the other hand there are the "anti-UAWers" who blame the workers' unions for almost all that is wrong with the domestic car industry and want the unions broken or punished.Neither side recalls the simple 'buy American' sentiment that was already on the wane as I grew up. That sentiment is dilted now that 'domestic' cars may be GM-Suzuki, GM-Toyota, Ford-Nissan, Chrysler-Mitsubishi, etc. joint ventures, and Big 3 brand cars may be rebadged from overseas or assembled in Mexico or Canada, and imported brand cars assembled at USA-located factories.I think that quality differences are essentially irrelevent between car makers. Even in cases where this is not true, keep in mind that the discounted cost of a Big 3 car relative to non-discounted import (those discounts are part of why the Big 3 are vulnerable) typically pays for several extra engine or drivetrain repairs. People who fret over the resale value of a car, where imports often lead domestic brands, must not keep them for at least 8-10 years and 100-150,000 miles like I do (ultimately selling for 10% or less of new price or donating).It's true that there are too many low-MPG choices in the domestic line-ups but that is because of the American muscle car and monster truck culture (so, we buyers are to blame), the exemption of many truck based vehicles from CAFE (government and automaker lobbyists brought us this, but not enough voters protested), and low gas prices to make people scoff at the relevance of CAFE anyway (again, government never raised gas tax from 18 cents per gallon over decades, even as that was diluted 3- or 4-fold by inflation, and voters didn't care). The import brands happily offered big trucks and SUVs to compete, so there is no monopoly on giving customers the environmentally irresponsible products they want. The big 3 are bringing out smaller SUVs and trucks (and there have been efficient sedan and hatchback or wagon choices since c.1980, and even those GM X-car and Chrysler K-car and first minivans were 2nd or 3rd generation after the Dodge Dart, Chevy Vega and Ford Falcon 1960's econocars). This is all happening now that Americans are starting to wake up to oil supply politics, some 35 years after our first oil embargo price shock. Neither the anti-Detroiters or the anti-UAWers seem to comprehend the magnitude of a Detroit collapse. There is the simple, practical matter of the 2 million or so auto industry workers. Keeping them working by lending and demanding a deliberate restructuring is a far more cost-effective stimulus than throwing them all out on the streets. I begrudge the UAW benefits to retired workers, that let some of them buy bass boats or vacation travel, far less than I resent the Wall Street bonuses that slipped through new bailout legislation and will let failed bank and fund executives buy yachts or private islands.We ignore dripping faucets but can't overlook a broken pipe or a tree crashing through the roof. The people who can overlook the last year of 10,00 layoffs here and 50,000 layoffs there, and want to bring their ideological spite to bear against Detroit, will get a very rude awakening with 1-2 million more unemployed should Detroit melt down because "we showed those greedy ____ (pick one: managers/union workers)"! or because we dithered through the holidays. Keeping more people employed and taking a year or two and $15 billion or so to fix what both sides think is wrong makes with Detroit more sense than a opting for a 10% unemployment because of anti-Detroit, ant-union ideology, or $15 billion Detroit loan hesistancy caused by $700 billion TARP remorse. Thu 18 Dec 2008 23:38:36 GMT+1 politejomsviking Where I work the Bush Republicans fighting with the Union is kind of laughable. The Agency of the Federal Government I work for is heavily loaded with Veterans and 2nd Ammendment proponents (the right to keep and bear arms), additionally we are located in one of the most conservative sections of the South. In 2000 the Local Union (AFGE)had 60 Members and pretty much confined themselves to Local Grievances. In 2008, the Union Local is 398 members, our Local leaders regularly lobby politicians and send the Workers daily updates on the computer. What happened? The Republican policies started to directly impact our workers lives (God bless their dark little souls). The Union defended everbody's job during the privatization mess, they consistently beat the Bushies on pay raises for eight years, they stood up for everybody's right against unreasonable searches at the worksite entrance, They consistently stood by the staff's right to bid by Seniority for their job assignment instead of allowing management to arbitrarily pick where people would work based on who they liked ( the Union called management's system girlfriends first!). But mostly they consistently, fought for things that were important for us on the local job and communicated to us what they were doing.During the whole period the Bushies tried to change the Labor law through Bush appointed Federal Labor Relations Authority and Federal Service Impass Panel decisions that directly re-wrote every Labor law this nation ever had. Every time they issued a decision taking away a worker's fight the Union let everbody at the worksite know, by computer. We all saw some dewsies. FSIP issued a descion by phone that management had a right to do away with a compressed work schedule the Worker's had (4 ten hour days) and replace it (with 5 eight hour day). The management would then have to involuntarily mandatory Staff to overtime and operate the factory and pay overtime to get 1/2 the production we had before. What do we make? The plate carrier for the US Army and US Marines. Thats right when the US Soldiers and Marines did not have bullet proof vests and the Bushies were blocking parents from buying an inferior one on the private market the factory at Yazoo, Mississippi, was shut down for two shifts very dayand unwanted overtime paid every day, just so the Bushies could make a point that they had the power and could destroy Unions.The day I went down and voted against the Republicans (all of them on the ticket) in the last election, I pinned two things on my shirt a pin that said proud veteran US Army and a Union pin that said proud member of Local 1013. The Bushies made that happen, keep up the Union bashing and see where it gets you. Tue 16 Dec 2008 12:44:50 GMT+1 happylaze 196and wall street is a ghetto filled with GOP why the hell should we bail them out.Oh look they already ran off with half the money.And that is 6 times what the motor heads wanted.Now suckers think of this. what happens when Detroit is gone and the others figure they can just close the US plants build at home and keep all the Jobs there.Ask the workers at the Cowley Rd Plant, or the truck builders of Layland Daff. Tue 16 Dec 2008 02:14:43 GMT+1 D The Unions are only half the problem with the Car Makers. The other half is poor management and gas guzzling cars. As far as the GOP is concerned, why would they bail out an organization that blindly spends millions trying to defeat them in every election.Detroit is basically a ghetto which is totally controlled by the Dems and I doubt the loss of car makers could actually make it much worse. Tue 16 Dec 2008 00:58:19 GMT+1 happylaze 194. At 8:08pm on 15 Dec 2008, ilostmymind wrote:Unions helped build the middle class, kill the unions and the middle class will disappear. This is exactly what the republicans want. I'm sure that most of the republican senators have an understanding with the lobbyist for a big payout if they can quash the UAW.well. said Mon 15 Dec 2008 23:02:15 GMT+1 ilostmymind Unions helped build the middle class, kill the unions and the middle class will disappear. This is exactly what the republicans want. I'm sure that most of the republican senators have an understanding with the lobbyist for a big payout if they can quash the UAW. Mon 15 Dec 2008 20:08:43 GMT+1 happylaze 191 lol Mon 15 Dec 2008 19:12:08 GMT+1 Gary_A_Hill AsaScot (#188), I see, and I agree. Mon 15 Dec 2008 17:53:26 GMT+1 Mike Mullen #189 BrianDMerritt"like Scrooge, leave the rest to suffer their fate."Why do people always misuse the Scrooge name? In the story he is a man who is shown the error of his ways and changes them, something we see no sign of so far with the Bush Whitehouse. Mon 15 Dec 2008 17:42:11 GMT+1 Chicoan I haven't blogged here in awhile, but I've been reading. I just want to point out one thing.#6 & #7 allmymarbles wrote that UAW workers make about $75 per hour. That figure comes from auto industry management and it includes the entire cost of all employee pensions. The actual per hour figure for UAW employees is closer to $54 per hour including benefits, which is not that far above (about $10 per hour) what other auto workers make in the US. Considering that this is far below the wage of the average professional (doctor, lawyer, etc.) and considering that well made automobiles can be life-savers, I don't think UAW wages are out of line. The CEO wages, however, are so high as to be obscene.By the way, I am a business owner and a democrat. Mon 15 Dec 2008 16:38:13 GMT+1 BrianDMerritt With the Christmas season upon us, the three wise men - Larry, Curly and Moe - are sitting in the White House contemplating their next move to stanch the economy from further bleeding.So far Bush, Cheney and Paulson have given money to the banks and insurance companies without any requirement for accountability. Repubs only care about their rich friends and like Scrooge, leave the rest to suffer their fate. Mon 15 Dec 2008 16:29:47 GMT+1 Mike Mullen #153 Gary-A-Hill:"The operational question is: what do we need to do now to begin adapting the global economy to prepare for the depletion of our fossil fuels?"Sorry for the late reply but yes I agree we need to develop alternative energy sources, my point really was such alternatives are plentiful and there's no need to embrace the Green desire for some mythical medieval rural idyll free of the 'evils' of technology. Mon 15 Dec 2008 15:21:04 GMT+1 skippijosie If the Big 3 should fail, the loss of the tax revenue from companies and employees alike would hit 100 billion dollars in one year. These people will also be eligible for unemployment - billions more. Then there will surely be more home foreclosures (they can funnel more money to these banks that aren't lending money to anyone). The cost to our government will be far greater if they don't get this loan. Simple math. This is clearly an attempt to break the unions. Some are saying that the UAW is antiquated but if it didn't exist, the workers would have been stripped of everything by these senators. Senators who come from states that subsidized the foreign car companies very generously to come into their states. With all of the technological advances that the big three have made (all are about to launch electric vehicles), it seems like they really want to squelch the competition of their constituents. If they were truly looking for cost savings and not just union busting, why were the salaries and legacy costs (health care and pensions etc.) of the big 3 white collar workers not brought up at all? To watch these things unfold on CSPAN, you would think that these companies only consist of the CEO's and the people who build the cars.Let's not forget that Detroit manufacturing aka. "The Arsenal of Democracy" was a major lynchpin for allied victory in World War II. Take a look at all of the charities the American car companies and union members contribute to - especially in times of crisis like 9/11. Then look at what these transplants chipped in to help. Mon 15 Dec 2008 15:11:48 GMT+1 Morgaine_VLB I think the simplest way to look at this is to use the metaphor of the TV show "Survivor", a program which pitted two teams of (usually) successful business people against each other in remote wilderness areas, and gave each team challenges that had to be won in order to stay on the island and win the "big money". Invariably, the skills that got people promoted in business got them thrown off the island at tribal council. Why? Because the basic attitudes fostered in modern business are unsustainable, and this fact is blatantly obvious when you strip things down to a survival level.Once *unmasked* (i.e. no longer anonymous in their offices), most people do finally adapt to some degree, once it becomes obvious to them that they will not survive otherwise (though many resist until it is too late to save themselves). What's lacking right now in the auto and banking industries is the recognition that change is necessary to their survival. The recognition is lacking because society protects corporations, and corporate management, from the consequences of their own actions. As a result, they continue doing the same things, and we continue to pay.The solution is simple: make them pay instead. Most people have an aversion to pain. Only when we make the pain of their mistakes theirs (instead of the public's) will corporations and share holders sit up and take notice. As long as we keep bailing them out we are all just postponing the inevitable extinction of life as we know it. Mon 15 Dec 2008 15:03:46 GMT+1 watermanaquarius Just for reference , here a USA auto workers division of labour per state map. Found on CNN !.Very strange average wage figures per state? Can only assume they have divided total workforce irrespective of hours worked into total income. e.g Michigan ranked number 1 earning $65000 +, and yet California, [ number 2] $ 17590. Breakdown of jobsAt least it gives an idea of the amount of jobs in the industry, regarding assembly, parts and sales, although it does not specify which carmakers they refer to. Mon 15 Dec 2008 08:00:38 GMT+1 american grizzly So the baloney figure of the Union worker making $75 an hour, OR around $150,000 dollars a year isn't real? They must all have Cadillacs, and Continentals, if it is? One question what did the CEO's and executive officers take home$$$$$?Just like AIG's union workers must make big bucks??? Right now Union membership in the US is around 9% of the workforce roughly. It is amazing how they caused all these problems and collapsed the banks, insurance companies, housing market, and made oil increase. Gee I guess we have all been misinformed.Local #421 International Brotherhood of Scapegoats, and Convienient Corporate Targets. Sun 14 Dec 2008 23:58:50 GMT+1 shurlyujest #81 --Hey, Ed, what are you smokin'?!!!Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery . . . Sun 14 Dec 2008 13:18:21 GMT+1 politejomsviking #181Dear Chronophobe,the preferred Colt .45 Single Action Pistols( chambered for .45 Long Colt, not .45 Auto ammunition) are of course a private purchase item every leader should already own. Since, we are involving the Goverment in this endeavor we may be able to get the loan of some Colt, .45 Autos to aid us in getting the weaker managers, scratch that leaders in facing their tasks. Sorry, but can't help with the pearl handles according to the General I quote "Only a pimp in a New Orleans whore house has pearl handes on his pistol" GP's pistols were of course the politically incorrect, but beautiful solid Ivory with Gold Initials. I still think to shake the place up and get people in the correct mindset to win, you would be hard pressed to find a better leader than Stormin Norman.It would be fun to be there when the first leader told old Storman Norman that we should close a factory, because he was unable to lead it profitably. Sun 14 Dec 2008 07:23:21 GMT+1 chronophobe Re: 180LOL! I'd apply for one of those jobs, as long a it came with a set of pearl handled .45's.Cheers,Canadian Pinko Sat 13 Dec 2008 21:19:04 GMT+1 politejomsviking We could end all of these bankruptcies. Write the law as follows: 1. You can seek banrupcy protection.2. Management can no longer borrow from the pension fund.3. Your labor contracts are business contracts, if you choose not to honor them you can no longer seek re-dress through the courts for failure to honor contracts with you.4. All management bonuses for the last seven years will be returned to the corporation. If the corporation returns to solvency and shows a profit for five rears they will be returned.5. All travel will be done in the economy model automobile built by that corporation.6. Management will be at their desk working, they will use the same clock in and clock out procedures as they use for their workers. Everybody will clock out for lunck, the same as the workers. Negotiable, once we return to profitability.7. Every model will be given a Manager who will be responsible for returning it to profitability. If they do not do this in a 6 month period, they will be sent before the stockholders as fired, where a 55% favorable vote will be required to re-instate them.8. While on travel the re-imbusement rates for hotels and meals will be the same as Federal employees no more. No more thousand dollar a night hotel rooms.9. All people making more than one million dollars a year will be fired. Jobs will be re-announced and filled from the applicants who are willing to do the job for a million or less. All employees will be considered.10. There will be a daily sales meeting attended by representatives of the US treasury department. Purposeful waste or re-direction of coorporate funds to personal use will be treated fraud as against the government and the perpatrators sent to federal prison.11. Sexual harrassment of workers will no longer be a suing event, the non-working manager will be fired and criminally charged with extorion under threat of rape.12. Any manager bringing a golf club or tennis racket on company property will be fired.13. All company paid memberships in countryclubs, private clubs and charities are cancelled.14. The new motto is "Cars and Trucks, conquer or die!" It will be viewable in all work sites and offices.15. All employees will, ( to include management) be rotated through car club meet-ups around the country, so they will learn what an American classic looks like.16. Events will be planned around the world to show case the superiority of the American car.17. We abolish the manegement concept. We now have two types of workers. Leader workers and Regular workers.18. We make being the number 1 salesman the highest paid position at the company!19. All leader workers will learn how to operate every posioton in their area or be relieved as incompetent. 20. The world will be broken into zones and every day the President, the top leader and Auto worker will read the corporate reports on what we sold in each Zone. Zone leaders who do not perform will be demoted and sent to the production line, until they the leader is competitive again.21. Every worker will be given the oportunity and told that they can rise all the way to the top leadersip position.22. A culture of Auto Worker being the only and most important job inthe world will be fostered. Doubters will be fired.A lot of these ideas are variations of ideas of General George Patton's writings that I was made to read at the 5th Infantry Division, US Army, in the 1980s. My Battalion Commander used to ask every Morning at Offier's call if OUR men and machines were ready to "Win the Battle of Armageddon". It should be noted that the 5th Inf. Division had not been under General Patton, since 1946, but the team culture and leadership expectations were still there. Leadership in the big three has become a free ride for fat and lazy men who would rather be clogging up the board room with stories of what they did with their lier jet, secreary or what type of latte they drank at the club. I favor a loan, but not a monetary gift and none of the money can be used for foreign factories, let them beg from those governments. What is Norman Schwartkopf doing these days? What a great car Czar! Sat 13 Dec 2008 20:22:44 GMT+1 Simon21 164. At 12:10pm on 13 Dec 2008, Jeebers76 wrote:I thought the GOP used to be really intelligent, but they seem so determined now to cut off the nose to spite our faces that I am wondering how mentally present they really are!"Not very. They have walked into this one and won't escape in a hurry.For blundering politics this would be hard to beat.In one stroke they have got Obama off the hook and handed him a political coup. Now he can claim the Republicans are against saving US jobs.And this in a looming recession!Their actions are so crass one wonders if the whole thing was a set up. Sat 13 Dec 2008 18:29:57 GMT+1 happylaze 173 why not send them in. everyone is quoting the Toyota numbers why not check to see if they are real or as misleading as the 75$ number. Sat 13 Dec 2008 17:42:41 GMT+1 happylaze 163"ABC and Fox News both reported it was the UAW unwillingness to give up anything in immediate paybacks that caused the bill to go down."that is exactly why some of us do not believe the press is as left bent as you would often claim. Sat 13 Dec 2008 17:39:29 GMT+1 happylaze "Has anyone ever heard of Palestinian rampages against Jews being described lately as pogroms? And if not, why not?"but I would say that the article talked about how the Israeli Gunmen were detained by the Palestinians.Where as is a Palestinian had shot at two Jews I guarantee he would be shot several times.By the crowd. Sat 13 Dec 2008 17:35:29 GMT+1 happylaze 152. At 10:14pm on 12 Dec 2008, TrueToo wrote:145. Ed Iglehart,"I doubt that you are impressing anyone other than the few groupies who follow you around here and perhaps a lurking 80%. But I guess it's your way of covering up your inability or unwillingness to debate the issues."like jacksforge said long ago when you turned up, don't let the door hit you on the way have raised no issues to have attacked only people not issues.157again trying to raise the israeli issue so you bud z can come back and complain."A pogrom is a form of riot directed against a particular group, whether ethnic, religious, or other, and characterized by the killing and destruction of their homes, businesses, and religious centers. The term in English is often used to denote extensive violence against Jews — either spontaneous or premeditated — but it has also been applied to similar incidents against other minority groups."Wiki.yours" A pogrom is a state backed rampage in which innocents are raped, robbed and murdered and their houses destroyed."not quite the same are they.My arguments against you will be saved for a time when this subject is raised within the discussion, as opposed to because you felt you "had"to expose les Majesty because how else were you going to change the discussion to your one and only. Sat 13 Dec 2008 17:33:15 GMT+1 happylaze 140 thankyou for bringing that to my attention, as i always thought you do a good job of stirring up anti Israeli feeing.appalling behaviour there by the settlers.Now can we get back to the continents that are the Americas's Sat 13 Dec 2008 17:19:21 GMT+1 OldSouth This from today's Detroit Free Press(a paper that itself is about to go under), regarding how UAW President Gettlefinger conducted himself in negotiations to save his industry from collapse:'Gettelfinger said he told U.S. Sen. Bob Corker, a Republican from Tennessee, that if Toyota was going to be used as the benchmark for wages, the union leader was willing to send a team of his researchers to Toyota to study the automaker’s entire wage structure.“In addition to that, if we were going to use them as a benchmark, we should be permitted to see how they pay their management,” Gettelfinger said. “If we did that, we should also see their dealer contracts and as well as their supplier contracts. That would only make sense to me instead of somebody saying, ‘Here’s the wage — that’s what you have to agree to.’ ”In other words, he was demanding the right to send his minions in to go over Toyota's books, as well as the books of Toyota's suppliers, BEFORE he would agree to any wage/beneft concessions in the bail-out package.OMG!!Does this help anyone understand why so much of the country HATES the UAW, and is willing to let the Big Three go into bankruptcy?And, now Bush and Paulson are going to send them money anyway. Gettlefinger must have known this all along.The good news is, with GM staring a $60b in debt, only $2b in net worth, bankruptcy is now inevitable. If I held GM corporate paper at .11 on the dollar, I would be reluctant to swap it for equity, knowing that the UAW would be doing the same in regards to monies owed its benefit fund. Who would want to be in bed with these clowns?And, who would ever wish to buy a GM auto, having just witnessed this past week's charade? Sat 13 Dec 2008 17:16:02 GMT+1 happylaze 140 again your obsession is amazing. Care to talk about anything other than your whining comments about others identities.again Ignore the last question and get on with complaining that people are undesirables (when frankly i would suspect most would find you to be that) instead of defending yourself or your arguments.Now Jacksforge got in trouble because he could not call you by your nickname for yourself but insisted in bringing a honey loving bear when mentioning you. To which you complained and wailed about how rude it was and how truthful you were. The content of your posts gets even worsenow there is no attempt to say anything but complain about who someone could be.Oh and trying to side track with the "I" issue.I'm off to see where the "Muslim East " is now I am so clear on the "christian east".and to the strange pickle that is majik who said"I respectfully disagree, Unions for the last generation have been engaged in class war fare and intimidation."well they lost then didn't they. Did you hear about the disparity in wealth in the US going UP. Now if them unions were doing so much that number might well be the other way around .Do you also live in a land where the Christian east is Poland? Sat 13 Dec 2008 17:11:58 GMT+1 happylaze Chapter 11 is the way to go.always easy to tell others the way when you are lost ,Eh?165. At 2:28pm on 13 Dec 2008, dceilar Nice post says it all really.166at least he gets half of it right , so he's better off than you.What is so wrong with what was quoted. Sat 13 Dec 2008 16:38:19 GMT+1 happylaze Chapter 11 is the way to go.always easy to tell others the way when you are lost ,Eh? Sat 13 Dec 2008 16:33:13 GMT+1 happylaze 127 I was wondering and thinking of changing my name to 20% left. Sat 13 Dec 2008 16:28:30 GMT+1 tiptoplisamich Agreeing with #266 MagicKirin.Michael Moore's train of credibility has long left the station. Sat 13 Dec 2008 15:57:30 GMT+1 GroovySvengali The average GM employee is actually making around $35 an hour. They accrue about $39 in benefits. As far as assembly work goes, both are quite high. Many Advanced Practice Nurses I work with don't even make that much.It is completely inconsitent to pass for the banks but reject the car makers, but somewhat less ludicrous. They ignored the people and threw money at failures and thieves--but in the end, did sustain those intended to be; albiet immorallly, idiotically, and most of all UNCONSTITUTIONALLY.What happens if we give GM & Chrysler our money? They waste it, they make minor tweaks to their inferior models, and continue as they always have. Even if we gave them $100 billion, nobody would buy their cars, and they will still fail. Sat 13 Dec 2008 15:46:56 GMT+1 MagicKirin ref #165Michael Moore is one of the biggest liars in America. He doesn't pay reasonable benifits to the people who work for him.His exposes are full of half truths.He represents what is worse in this country Sat 13 Dec 2008 15:38:13 GMT+1 dceilar Michael Moore is on form again.The Senate's message to ordinary working middle class Americans: Drop Dead!They could have given the loan on the condition that the automakers start building only cars and mass transit that reduce our dependency on oil.They could have given the loan on the condition that the automakers build cars that reduce global warming.They could have given the loan on the condition that the automakers withdraw their many lawsuits against state governments in their attempts to not comply with our environmental laws.They could have given the loan on the condition that the management team which drove these once-great manufacturers into the ground resign and be replaced with a team who understands the transportation needs of the 21st century.Yes, they could have given the loan for any of these reasons because, in the end, to lose our manufacturing infrastructure and throw 3 million people out of work would be a catastrophe.But instead, the Senate said, we'll give you the loan only if the factory workers take a $20 an hour cut in wages, pension and health care. That's right. After giving BILLIONS to Wall Street hucksters and criminal investment bankers -- billions with no strings attached and, as we have since learned, no oversight whatsoever -- the Senate decided it is more important to break a union, more important to throw middle class wage earners into the ranks of the working poor than to prevent the total collapse of industrial America. Sat 13 Dec 2008 14:28:43 GMT+1 Jeebers76 162 katana0812, the political consequences you cite are very likely. I'm impressed that you managed to be so astute! I AM a Minnesotan, born, raised, and still living here.How much do you want to bet that with their continuing tactics of being spoilers rather than constructive criticism, they will CONTINUE to lose out in each and every election? Everybody thinks the US is oblivious, which is only true if you listen to our media blather. If you spend time watching us personally, you'll start picking up on patterns which have nothing to do with CNN or Fox etc. We don't forget, EVER! We do allow for exceptions, but we only become more suspicious when you've got a record of being shifty and then suddenly appear squeaky clean. The McCain campaign is a great example; he'd say anything to get elected, including abandoning his entire personality and track record! Hey John, did you really think we wouldn't notice the constant about-faces?! You must have a pretty low opinion of the peanut gallery, eh? Sheesh!I thought the GOP used to be really intelligent, but they seem so determined now to cut off the nose to spite our faces that I am wondering how mentally present they really are!I don't have a side when it comes to unions and the big 3, I just think the whole thing is a mess of near Biblical proportions.I don't know nearly as much about economics as I do USA politics, it seems too unpredictable to me. We shall see if Obama pulls a rabbit out of his rear end or not, won't we? Sat 13 Dec 2008 12:10:01 GMT+1 MagicKirin ref #152 and 162You both are listening to the UAW lies and propganda.ABC and Fox News both reported it was the UAW unwillingness to give up anything in immediate paybacks that caused the bill to go down.That is why many of us feel a controlled bankrupcy is the best way to go.Go on aol poll and you will see bailout is opposed by 64%.Death to the UAW!! Sat 13 Dec 2008 10:45:50 GMT+1 katana0182 Let's just put it this way.If Detroit goes under, the Republicans' irrational hatred of unions will be the cause of the failure of the bailout, at least in the eyes of the American people, or at least those who live in the Midwest. The Republicans will have won their battle to destroy the American auto industry and the power of the workers there.But there will be some unfortunate consequences (unfortunate to the Republicans and to the Midwest) that will come out of this as a result:*Michigan's economy will utterly collapse;*Indiana (parts manfacturers), Illinois (fabricators of all sorts), Ohio, Pennsylvania (steel industry), Wisconsin, and Minnesota's (can you say Mesabi Range?) economies' will be gravely harmed;*It's quite possible that the resulting shock will trigger a catastrophic deflationary spiral in the entire United States;*It's also very likely that the Republicans will have ceded the Upper Midwest to the Democrats for the next 40 years, and possibly the entire United States, especially if this thing turns into a depression, and it probably will, the Republicans will be reduced to a regional party. (Truly "a national party no more".)*It's also probable that Obama will inherit the greatest crisis, and the best political opportunity for any president since FDR in 1933.So, suffice it to say, the Republicans have managed to win the battle, and doom Detroit, but they have also managed to lose the war.But don't take my word for the future unfold. Sat 13 Dec 2008 04:19:34 GMT+1 timohio Those fulminating against union work rules need to remember why those rules were put in place (through negotiation with management, I might add). They are a reaction against abuses by management. Job classifications are a protection against making a low-paid worker do a job that would normally be done by a higher paid worker. Rules about working through a union process before firing a worker resulted from arbitrary dismissals. Grievance procedures were a way of dealing with worker complaints in a fashion that put both labor and management at the table. Some of these rules may be archaic and some too rigidly enforced, but they were not arbitrarily imposed on a powerless management. They were negotiated in a series of contracts. And basically, if management had behaved in a responsible manner in the first place, many of those work rules would never have come about. Work rules get stuck in contracts like forgotten bits of DNA from prehistoric ancestors, and malcontents use them to their private advantage. But the way to get rid of them is to negotiate, just like the process that implanted them in the first place. They are not illegal and they are not un-American. They are part of contract negotiations. Why is a business contract sacred and a union contract reprehensible? Sat 13 Dec 2008 02:40:03 GMT+1 justcorbly #137 Iglehart:>>"...yet you want to bail them out....Why wouldn't I?The welfare of people takes precedence over the welfare of belief. Fri 12 Dec 2008 23:19:56 GMT+1 Jeebers76 Oops, I misunderstood. Sorry about that! Fri 12 Dec 2008 23:15:21 GMT+1 Scott0962 Republicans don't really hate labor unions but they would probably make an exception in the UAW's case. The union has saddled the automakers with inflated labor costs, rules that prevent disciplining unproductive workers and a benefits package that Congress itself might envy. At the same time they have become a de facto branch of the Democratic Party, using union money for campaign contributions, providing campaign "volunteers" and telling members how to vote.The UAW is desperately calling in its markers and offering face saving concessions now because they know if the companies go bankrupt the first that goes are their contracts and once gone they're gone for good.It's no coincidence that every new car plant built in the U.S.for the last forty years has been built in states where workers cannot be forced to join a union in order to work. Foreign automakers U.S. labor costs are as much as a third less than those of the Big Three and their product quality is just as good if not better.If the U.S. car makers go under a big part of the reason will be that the UAW helped kill the goose that layed the golden egg. Fri 12 Dec 2008 23:13:53 GMT+1 TrueToo 149. dceilar,I've been following that story. The left in Israel is jumping up and down in angst at these unruly Jewish youths behaving like Palestinians. And Prime Minister Olmert also lapsed into gross exaggeration and misrepresentation by calling these disturbances a "pogrom." Gives you an idea of the craziness of the debate in Israel, with Israelis flinging the same insults at one another that the antisemites fling at them.A pogrom is a state backed rampage in which innocents are raped, robbed and murdered and their houses destroyed. I'm sure you can see the difference between that and what is happening here. You might also note that one of the Israeli youths suffered a serious head injury from a rock thrown by a Palestinian. That was over a week ago and he has only now regained consciousness.Has anyone ever heard of Palestinian rampages against Jews being described lately as pogroms? And if not, why not? Fri 12 Dec 2008 23:12:48 GMT+1 Jeebers76 154"The Republican's hate the Unions because they have been effective at poining out the outrageous corruption of the Bush years. "Wait a minute, I thought Bush was a Republican?! Moreover, I know that Bush is, was, and always will be a diehard GOP man. The whole family is like that. That would mean that Bush's excess is the GOP's excess. Therefore, aren't the Republicans (by your own logic) pointing out their own excess?I'm really confused! Fri 12 Dec 2008 22:59:11 GMT+1 chronophobe re: 130 g&rGuns, thanks for that link. Rooting about on the hawk's site, I found the reason why Ford is in much better shape. With sensible, economical models like this, how can they lose? You know, I used to read my grandma's old National Geographic magazines not for the bare breasted ladies ('sides, I knew where Dad hid the Playboys), but for the car ads. My fave (for reasons I can't explain) was the 1962 Coupe Deville. How the mighty have fallen . . . Yours,Canadian Pinko Fri 12 Dec 2008 22:49:20 GMT+1 politejomsviking The $75 an hour figure is obviously a lie. However the Republican Doctors and Lawyers do get on average more than $100 an hour and will not tell you what they are going to bill you ahead of time. The same Republicans think a Blackwater securiy guard worth $662.00 a day. The Republican's hate the Unions because they have been effective at poining out the outrageous corruption of the Bush years. Those same politicians have no problem giving Millions to Nissan and Toyota for Factories in Mississippi or Mercedes and BMW in Alabama. Remember their first rule "Americans in trouble need to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, unless they are needy millionaires" aid to foreigners who hate America is the real purpose of the government". Glad they lost! Fri 12 Dec 2008 22:35:47 GMT+1 Gary_A_Hill AsaScot (#147), while I think I understand the distinction you are trying to draw, I don't agree that the energy problem is "irrelevant for a few billion years." The First Law is just conservation of energy. While there is, indeed, a lot of energy around us to tap, the problem is the extent to which we (most of humankind) rely on fossil fuels, which contain stored energy received from the sun millions of years age. These are not being renewed at anywhere near the rate we consume them. In time, they will become so scarce that we will have to adapt to other sources or use less energy, whether we like it or not. We do not have billions of years to change our ways. The operational question is: what do we need to do now to begin adapting the global economy to prepare for the depletion of our fossil fuels? Fri 12 Dec 2008 22:28:45 GMT+1 TrueToo 145. Ed Iglehart,I doubt that you are impressing anyone other than the few groupies who follow you around here and perhaps a lurking 80%. But I guess it's your way of covering up your inability or unwillingness to debate the issues. Fri 12 Dec 2008 22:14:48 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart Hard Talk, but nwell worth the time.Peaceed Fri 12 Dec 2008 22:07:31 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart Scot," I of course don't mean that resources are infinite but as far as our single species is concerned they are effectively unlimited, and if you are referring to entropy isn't that the second law?"I was referring to the First Law, and its inherent acceptance of limits. There is only what there is, and if you believe that space and resources are 'effectively unlimited', then I have a Tooth Fairy friend who'd love to sell you a bridge."Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. --Kenneth Boulding"Peace within limitsed"Infinity is ended, and mankind is in a box;The era of expanding man is running out of rocks;A self-sustaining Spaceship Earth is shortly in the offingAnd man must be its crew - or else the box will be his coffin. -- Kenneth Boulding, from The Ballad of Ecological Awareness" Fri 12 Dec 2008 22:02:41 GMT+1 dceilar #143 ttHow about the blog Les is replying to that states attacks by Israeli extremists on Palestinians. One report in Haaretz described the violence as "out and out pogroms"! It's an interesting whilst unpleasant read. Fri 12 Dec 2008 21:56:04 GMT+1 MagicKirin ref #138I respectfully disagree, Unions for the last generation have been engaged in class war fare and intimidation.George Meany was a thug and Robert Poli jepordized air safety to pay for his $1,000 suits.I agree everyone should have to take a cut but the rule about a manager or owner only making 10 times?Bill Gates may be an egomaniac but he deserves to make 100 times more than an entry level person at Microsoft Fri 12 Dec 2008 21:46:26 GMT+1 Mike Mullen #92 Ed Iglehart:"Scot," Now you see I just don't believe that either space or resources are limited, "Why am I not surprised? And what's your take on the first law of thermodynamics?"I of course don't mean that resources are infinite but as far as our single species is concerned they are effectively unlimited, and if you are referring to entropy isn't that the second law? Given the available energy sources the first seems irrelevant for a few billion years, and then there's always vacuum energy...Try expanding your horizons Ed, take off those green blinkers and see the larger universe. Fri 12 Dec 2008 21:46:08 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart Stories I heard "Only available live" Fri 12 Dec 2008 21:30:32 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart TT,"It didn't take any great perceptive powers."You got that right, Sherlock! Fri 12 Dec 2008 21:20:57 GMT+1 SaintDominick Ref 141Perhaps Sen. Corker (R) TN should elaborate a bit more on his insistance to achieve parity in wages and benefits between UAW members and non-union workers in foreign auto plants operating in the USA, while there is absolutely no talk in doing the same for CEO's, Board members, and the white collar hierarchy. Should we assume that the multi-millionaire senator is only concerned about "middle class parity" (smells like communism), but does not see a need to do the same for the inept upper class that helped get us in the mess we are in? Hopefully, people will remember the position taken by the new GOP super-star when he runs for re-election. Then again, all he will have to do in his home state is praise the Lord, denounce abortion and homosexuality as works of the Devil, and issue fahtwas against "Arabs" to be re-elected by a landslide. Fri 12 Dec 2008 21:09:08 GMT+1 TrueToo This post has been Removed Fri 12 Dec 2008 21:08:31 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart TT,Oooooh! You're soooo perceptive! Fri 12 Dec 2008 20:56:40 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart Bush done it!"Tennessee Sen. Bob Corker says the Bush administration undercut his negotiating power with the United Auto Workers by making clear the auto industry would get an emergency lifeline even if talks in Congress collapsed.Corker says that's what happened Thursday night. He says UAW negotiators felt there was no point in conceding the final point toward striking a deal because they believed the automakers would get money from the White House."Peace and Republican Unityed Fri 12 Dec 2008 20:54:57 GMT+1 TrueToo 127 Ed Iglehart wrote:A little bird told me that 80% might be contriving a reincarnation....If you are referring to LesMajestey, I don't think that's 80% attempting to clothe himself in a bodily sheath. Watch, it'll be like one of those horror movies where you don't see what you're expecting to see. Like the scene in Hitchcock's Psycho, when he turns the chair around (in which we have been led to believe his mother was sitting) to reveal a grinning skeleton, Les Majestey will soon be revealed as ....Xie_Ming: I guess you'll be happy with that. One man's horror movie is another man's entertainment. Fri 12 Dec 2008 20:47:17 GMT+1 Betelgeuse00 I have always been a republican, yet over the years I find Republicans in office to be wannabe's. They are not true republicans! They attack the unions as being counter productive to business. If corporations would pay their employees fairly and not abuse labor laws while trying to pay off republicans to hide behind their misdeeds, then there would be no need for unions. For a Senator to use the UAW as a scapegoat shows why the American people have voted for Democrats. When the Republican party can't get their act together and represent the people and not themselves.Maybe, just maybe they might get some respect. Fri 12 Dec 2008 20:39:56 GMT+1 everyone_equal I agree with DominickVila and Timohio; the unions are what created the middle class in this country... I know that they have become bloated and useless in this case but no one can deny the fact that management also became greedy and useless. If the republicans are asking the auto-workers to take a pay-cut, they should also ask all the CEOs in other companies as well to limit their pay to 10 times that of an average worker. After all an organization does not depend on a single person for that person to make an outrageous amount of money. And don't tell me this is capitalism, it is greedyism!!! (You heard this word here first! :-() ) Fri 12 Dec 2008 20:23:28 GMT+1 Ed Iglehart Corbly, Our records indicate it's time to check your irony circuits"Besides, a market dominated by a few powerful corporations, as most American markets are, is far from free. "and yet you want to bail them out.... Fri 12 Dec 2008 19:56:56 GMT+1 dennisjunior1 Justin......The Republicans have never like the Unions in the United States, because---they [unions] usually vote for the Democrats.... Fri 12 Dec 2008 19:56:03 GMT+1 ladycm 123. At 6:56pm on 12 Dec 2008, commonsense575:Your name says it all, you are completely correct. Greedy management displacing blame on to unions. It's all about deflecting and displacing; and republicans are eating it up. Any chance to attack the unions. The unions are not the problem, period. I bet repuclicans would love to see overtime go and 40 hour work weeks go, all of these benefits thanks to our unions. Fri 12 Dec 2008 19:50:10 GMT+1 SaintDominick Sorry to hear Justin is leaving. I enjoyed his comments and opinions, and found most of his topics interesting even when they were a bit provocative. Hopefully, his departure means he found a more challenging and better job. Fri 12 Dec 2008 19:48:20 GMT+1 ladycm 41. At 09:03am on 12 Dec 2008, dceilar wrote:#27 ladycm"Agreed. People blinded by ideology are trying to shift the blame on the unions. These union members asked for a pay rise and they got it. Damn them!"I know, how dare they ask for more money when costs are (or were) inflating at a sky rocketing rate. When what's his face the head of GM is making millions of dollars for driving his company into failure by banking on Saturn to pull them up, even though Saturn has never made any money. Look another bad idea by someone who makes millions. My car doesn't suck because of the people on the assembly line, it sucks because of management. Attacking the unions and calling them antiquated etc will not do anything except cause more hostility between GM and their workers. Again, if they felt they did not need their union they would disband. GM needs to make their employees feel like their not going to immediately screw them without a union, and they can't do that; so the union stays. I understand there are bad sides to a union. Being a former manager and having to work with people who should have been fired, but were protected by their union. I know I have dealt with it first hand, but this happens at companies with out unions also, no one wants to get sued. But in my opinion, their good out weighs their bad and again I will say it again...if GM, Ford, or Chrysler had anything good to offer better than what the union could offer; the auto workers would no longer be unionized! People are acting as if these workers are being held hostage. I am totally for this bailout, but management needs to change and it needs to change now. They should have worked for a dollar years ago. They should have car pooled to the senate meeting the first time instead of flying in private jets. Their selfish actions are affecting thousands of workers.I was against the 700 billion dollar bailout. I didn't hear to much fuss about wages being slashed from republicans on this one. Here is what I learned, white collar it is okay to bail you fact they gave like 152 billion to AIG alone! What the hell? But, blue collar????? No way... go stand in the unemployment line. You have 6 months to find a job. And if you bought American, now suffer your punishment for doing so with no companies to back up the product you bought. The union is NOT the problem, if anything is antiquated it’s the old idea of greedy management taking more and more and more and it’s just never enough. What is antiquated is republican ideology and republican fundamentalism. Their motive is so transparent; bring in foreign work at lower costs and lower wages to workers of this country with less benefits. Unbelievable. Fri 12 Dec 2008 19:44:18 GMT+1 priva4221 Let me se if I have this right... we give them money (okay, loan with the prayer it'll come back) and they get to put people on the street - people we will have to additionally pay for (medical, housing, welfare, unemployment)?Seems like a deal made in heaven for the Wall Street investors - again. Fri 12 Dec 2008 19:40:33 GMT+1 mdalerwill Re #125 gunsandreligion,But a bitter small or a gloomy large might be more in order under the current circumstances. Fri 12 Dec 2008 19:37:05 GMT+1