http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/07/why_the_bbc_removed_microforma.html en-gb 30 Sun 27 Dec 2009 19:23:53 GMT+1 A feed of user comments from the page found at http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/07/why_the_bbc_removed_microforma.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/07/why_the_bbc_removed_microforma.html?page=18#comment11 I understand the issue around what is viewed, hence the whole debate. Thank you.. http://www.birsesver.com Sat 13 Jun 2009 04:27:30 GMT+1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/07/why_the_bbc_removed_microforma.html?page=16#comment10 What up with Value Class Pattern?http://microformats.org/blog/2009/05/12/value-class-pattern/You back on board? Tue 26 May 2009 19:44:40 GMT+1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/07/why_the_bbc_removed_microforma.html?page=15#comment9 @ritchielee - we've just added ical support to /programmes so now you can add and subscribe to programmes via your calendar. It's rather more powerful than the original hCal implentationhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radiolabs/2008/07/some_ical_views_onto_programme.shtmlNo individual episode addition so far but that will come soon Fri 18 Jul 2008 11:12:08 GMT+1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/07/why_the_bbc_removed_microforma.html?page=13#comment8 It's quite amusing that we agree about browsers; as I said the same at 5 in this thread!As for the spec, it states that the title attribute is advisory information and that the 'tool tip' is a browser vendor's interpretation of this. So as I said, it wasn't designed as such (note the inverted commas).I understand the issue around what is viewed, hence the whole debate. However, my point is - is it really such a big one? As I also said at 5: People viewing the site will see and read the text easily; they're not likely to start hovering over everything and get annoyed at the ISO datetimes. Are they? Mon 14 Jul 2008 11:57:15 GMT+1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/07/why_the_bbc_removed_microforma.html?page=11#comment7 The HTML4 spec refers to the title attribute being used for tooltips, but that doesn't really matter because it's what browsers do, it happens in the real world and is seen by real users.I can't see how it's acceptable to have machine data visible to the user. I don't think a user viewing the page should have to work around bits of machine data while viewing a page. Machine data should be visible to the machine only. The 'view' should be a human friendly representation of machine data. "1998-03-12T09:30:00-05:00" is not human friendly. Mon 14 Jul 2008 11:10:11 GMT+1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/07/why_the_bbc_removed_microforma.html?page=10#comment6 All perspective isn't it? The title attribute wasn't designed for tooltipping.Why is it 'unacceptable'? All sorts of innovation happens on the web which enhance usability. There are always compromises when actually getting things done. It's all too easy to criticise.Assumptions; which none were made, should also not be made on how we potentially hinder users. Mon 14 Jul 2008 08:02:47 GMT+1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/07/why_the_bbc_removed_microforma.html?page=8#comment5 Tooltips are a problem of the datetime pattern, they put data which isn't human readable in a place that is presented to the user. Yes, it's the browser that's presenting this information, but microformat patterns must take current user agent behaviour into consideration.Having data which isn't human readable presented to the user is unacceptable, even if it's alongside a human readable version.The assumption that all screen reader users have advanced skills in IT is common yet wrong. The screen reader users in screencasts, articles and presentations are skilled in IT, but this is no more representative of the general user base than the authors of any web development blog. Screen reader users are not born with these skills. Sat 12 Jul 2008 20:51:25 GMT+1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/07/why_the_bbc_removed_microforma.html?page=6#comment4 Looks like the bbc did kick off a year old debate again; and yes, you did spark some action to rectify semantics and clarity.However, some of your concerns are not as dire as intimated. Tooltips aren't really a problem of microformats specifically, it's just what (some) browsers do; and if someone can read the tooltip then they have also read the text.As for screen readers, can you report on actual complaints? Those that use them are pretty nifty around their environment.By killing them off, Id say you've hindered usability and the programmable web as I can no longer save programmes with Operator and the like. Wed 09 Jul 2008 21:04:36 GMT+1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/07/why_the_bbc_removed_microforma.html?page=5#comment3 Hi Dan,Both Jake and I saw your talk at the vEvent session you did, I completely agreed with your sentiment.I would personally like to see sensible adoption of both Microformats and RDFa across bbc.co.uk and I suspect I'm not alone. Hopefully in the not too distant future we can demonstrate a one-big-happy-family product using both RDFa and Microformats. @vanwebid - Microformats and the various proposals for the datetime pattern issue mentioned above are more agreed conventions for standardised data representation in HTML than a language. See http://microformats.org/about/ Wed 09 Jul 2008 11:42:31 GMT+1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/07/why_the_bbc_removed_microforma.html?page=3#comment2 "The RDFa guys started claiming victory"Actually I was quite relieved at the lack of triumphalism from RDF enthusiasts when this news broke. The only post I saw which really cast things as a conflict/fight was John Resig's. And now yours. I've been encouraging folks lately not to exagerrate the nature of this supposed "conflict" (eg. see http://www.slideshare.net/danbri/one-big-happy-family/) ... any chance you could show people holding hands next time instead of arm-wrestingly? ;) Sat 05 Jul 2008 20:40:08 GMT+1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/07/why_the_bbc_removed_microforma.html?page=1#comment1 It is ok for me that the BBC did these changes... Sat 05 Jul 2008 17:38:57 GMT+1 http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/07/why_the_bbc_removed_microforma.html?page=0#comment0 is it using php or what language? great it is good Sat 05 Jul 2008 07:57:04 GMT+1