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Is Joe's legacy achievable?

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posted Nov 13, 2007

Qoxiivi - excellent article. I agree with almost everything you say. Not quite sure about Winky as a viable option as he is really only a light-middle. That aside, I think your conclusion is spot on and I couldn't agree more with the sentiment.

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posted Nov 13, 2007

It's miles too late for Joe C.

His chance was in the late 90s, when Jones-Junior, Tarver, Hopkins, Toney and Johnson were all fighting eachother. For whatever reason, he spent the same period fighting bums in the UK.

Legacy is built on fights. Joe simply hasn't chased them hard enough. He should have been in America after 20 odd fights, like Ricky H.

Look at other middlweights of the era, like Jones jnr for instance, and who he fought and mostly beat, and you can't compare them.

Toney, Hopkins, Johnson, Tarver

Even Hopkins

Jones Jnr, Tarver, Johnson, Winky Wright, Trinidad, De la Hoya, Taylor.

Sorry Joe, but you can't cover up 15 years of mediocre bouts, with a couple of "swansong" fights, against past it boxers

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posted Nov 13, 2007

You don't have to beat greats to be great. You just have to fight better calibre of opponents than Calzaghe has. Who did Chavez beat that was great? no one but at least he beat good pros like Haugen,Camacho,Rosario,Mayweather,Taylor,Randall,Ramirez etc. Calzaghe has 3 or 4 decent names on his record that's the difference.

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posted Nov 13, 2007

he will be remembered like marciano for some will say no one beat him, some will say who did he beat to bea a great? without at least 2 big american names (old, past it or not) im with people who say who did he beat.

i think he has the tallent but warren has held him back from achieving a hall of fame place

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posted Nov 13, 2007

Very true he missed the boat a few years ago when he had the chance to fight the best guys out there.

A shame really because i always had my doubts about Calzaghe as a great but must admit the more i watched him the more impressed i have been.

He may well have beaten Jones,wright et al but we shall never know.

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comment by pmcg911 (U1645774)

posted Nov 13, 2007

I've said as much on another thread: his legacy will always be a statistical one rather than boxing legend. In forty years time what will people say of him? 'Oh yeah Calzaghe, you remember the famous fight against...um...oh uh...' Compare him to RJJ and people will be able to name four or five classic fights. The same for Hopkins, DLH and even Wright. But that's nothing compared to fighters of the past. Look at Ali: fought Liston twice, Frazier three time, Foreman once, Norton twice (all hall of famers) and sure he didn't win them all but who cares, it's those opponents who established his status as boxing legend.

Joe is good, possibly the best super mid in the world today, but he won't be a boxing legend because there won't be the memories of classic wars.

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comment by DJHDJH (U3307238)

posted Nov 13, 2007

So what you are saying is that because he's beaten all of his opponents convincingly (only 1 split decision and even there the two in his favour were by 5 points) that makes him less worthy than someone who got taken to the edge of defeat several occasions.

For some reason in boxing it does better for you to scrape a win than to do it convincingly like in other sports. Calzaghe has fought many former champions and up and coming stars, they never made their name fully because he did not let them do so. He only unified the belts late on because Ottke and then Beyer refused to fight him. None of his fights were close because he was too good. He is the greatest British fighter of all time in my eyes and I certainly could see no case for having him outside the top 3 or 4.

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posted Nov 13, 2007

So what does the writer of this think you have to do to be a great fighter i mean c'mon Winky,Hopkins,Calzaghe are all gr8 fighters.

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comment by Ichi_1 (U2189242)

posted Nov 13, 2007

"i think he has the tallent but warren has held him back from achieving a hall of fame place" with u on the first point, warren holds all his fighters back. However Joe will make the hall of fame, for what its worth.

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comment by Ichi_1 (U2189242)

posted Nov 13, 2007

like people have said, Joe shouldve fought Hopkins and Dela Hoya back when they where fighting each other. Just three fights against Hopkins, Oscar and Tarver wouldve secured his legacy, especially if he wouldve won. I feel he could have beaten all those guys in their prime but because of Warren he never got the chance. Real shame.

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comment by U7314819

posted Nov 13, 2007

aint no doubt about it the best fighter ever is jones junior. the biggest mistake he made was coming down in weight so far. he should have done the cruiserweight division then back to heavy. calzaghe though is a great fighter but would not have beaten jones in his prime as no one would not in the history of the game pond for pound

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posted Nov 13, 2007

So what you are saying is that because he's beaten all of his opponents convincingly (only 1 split decision and even there the two in his favour were by 5 points) that makes him less worthy than someone who got taken to the edge of defeat several occasions.

For some reason in boxing it does better for you to scrape a win than to do it convincingly like in other sports. Calzaghe has fought many former champions and up and coming stars, they never made their name fully because he did not let them do so. He only unified the belts late on because Ottke and then Beyer refused to fight him. None of his fights were close because he was too good. He is the greatest British fighter of all time in my eyes and I certainly could see no case for having him outside the top 3 or 4.

---------------------------------------------

The fact is, he has beaten everyone he has fought, but he has not fought the best people in the weight. So is he unbeaten because he has never fought them?

The fights were all there for him. Toney, Tarver, Johnson, Jones Jnr, Hopkins - he just wouldn't go to America. Then when they all went up to light heavy in the early 00s, he stayed at middle and fought in an awful division for another 5 years.

So yes, he is an unbeaten, but he never got in the ring with any of the top 7 super middle/middle weights of his era.

I'm talking

Jones Junior
Tarver
Johnson
Hopkins
Toney

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posted Nov 13, 2007

Too true ceej but I think he was mismanaged instead of being scared of Jones etc. Should of had the balls to ditch Warren but the money was maybe too good..

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posted Nov 13, 2007

I agree Calzaghe hasnever fought the best. Why he hasn't been to America earlier I'll never know.

He needsto go over and hammer Hopkins and Jones-Junior.

Has De La Hoya ever fought at super-middleweight?

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posted Nov 13, 2007

calzaghe has risen to number 5 in rings current p4p ratings.

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posted Nov 13, 2007

If Joe Calzaghe beats Hopkins (and I think he will) then he will be remembered as a legend, and with good reason.

Hopkins may be old but anyone who's seen his last few fights knows that he's not past it. Even at 43 his amazing fitness and boxing brain has kept him well preserved and still beating top fighters such as Winky and Tarver.

To beat Hopkins would be to beat a legend if not at his peak then still enjoying the slowest decline from it shown by any boxer in history.

I think that Joe doesn't get the credit he deserves as well for taking on and beating younger stronger guys from his own weight division. De la Hoya, Trinidad and Winky are all great fighters but peaked at a stone or more less than JC. Lacy and Kessler were battering through the old guard of the SM division before JC schooled them both.

Once Hopkins is beaten his legacy is secured.

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posted Nov 13, 2007

Ok, I know this has been done to death
========================

** OK, then you know it's an invalid question.......next......<magic>

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posted Nov 13, 2007

Beating 43 year olds does not a legend make.

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comment by macca (U3663851)

posted Nov 13, 2007

To argue that Calzaghe may not be classed as a legend is fair enough. It's such a subjective subject that in many ways this kind of debate is pretty pointless.
For what it's worth I wouldn't class him as a legend, but then I wouldn't say De La Hoya (lost in virtually every 'major' fight he's had), Lewis (stopped twice by inferior opponents), Trinidad (suspect chin, to many easy defences, thrashed in both losses), etc were legends either. For me the term is vastly over used, IMO there are at best two or three legends produced in every generation of boxers. Marciano may be seen as a top ten of all time heavy but his record wouldn't make him a legend in my eyes, mainly through lack of quality opposition available.
What I do think is that Joe should be recognisedas the greatest super middle of his generation. Since Roy stepped up to light heavy in 1996 (he stepped up to fight MacCullum 12 months before Calzaghe defeated Eubank) Joe has, over the last decade, been the finest 168er on the planet. 22 world title wins, unbeaten, fought back from adversity (KO of Mitchell, step up v Kessler from round 7 onwards, final rounds vs Eubank, hand problems), defeating unbeaten champions (both Kessler and Lacey were viewed by most as arguably the divisions best at the time), many 'solid' world level opperators on his record (Eubank, Reid, Sheika, Woodhall, Mitchell) and six current or former world champions. With nothing left to prove at supermiddle a step up light heavy fight with Clinton Woods in the spring then a summer US clash vs Hopkins possibly followed up with a final fight vs Winky/Jones/Tarver (good names, superb money, legacy building, plus easy fights!) Would cement his place as a true British great, the dominant champion at his weight of his generation and a world class fighter. Not legendary for me though.

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posted Nov 13, 2007

De la hoya won world titles from jr light all the way up through 5 divisions beating guys of the quality of Chavez twice, Camacho, Whittaker, Vargas, Leija, Mayorga plus countless others, including Mosley twice in my opinion. With a gold medal to boot a definite legend. Calzaghe in comparison has beaten Lacey and Kessler. Point made.

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