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Landis loses his appeal

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posted Sep 20, 2007

Of course not.

Landis may well be a cheat (and an idiot), I don't know. But these dope tests and testing procedures need to be a lot better. They also need to be 'tested'.

If I was on a 12-person jury (as opposed to a 3-man adjudication panel) I wouldn't convict anyone based on the evidence presented. Landis may not be a suspected-criminal facing a death sentence, but he has been facing the destruction of his life.

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posted Sep 20, 2007

The question is why did the decision on the 2006 TDF winner take so long.

Landis tested positive & he wasn't stripped of the Yellow Jersey until today.
But Vinonkarov was kicked out immediately.

The ball is rolling, hopefully in favour of building up the credability of cycling.

Other sports have not addressed the doping scurge.
Why does cycling get such a kicking, when other sports just get a wee tap on the wrist.

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posted Sep 20, 2007

I am very glad that he has been busted. His smoke and mirrors defence based upon throwing as much mud as possible at the testers failed.

I hope that he is going to be sued by the USADA and the UCI for every penny he has for wasting their money in this frivilous appeal.

A thoughly nasty piece of work as a person as well. I am glad he has lost his career. Good riddence.

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posted Sep 20, 2007

It is so hard to tell from the outside. Is all the kicking and screaming from Floyd the sign of an innocent athlete wrongly accused or is it to whip up enough doubt amoungst those (naive like me) who want to believe him. The irony is that the 06 Tour has passed to someone with doubts shadowing them as well as the doubts with Contador for 07. I think the testing needs to be beyond reproach and when that happens life bans should be handed out or the issue should be seen as criminal fraud.

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posted Sep 20, 2007

When you have a lab that delivers the results to the newspaper before it sends it to the race, then we will never have confidence in anything they produce.

This was a real mess, we will never know the true winner of lasts years tour , the record books might as well put a row of question marks against that year.

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posted Sep 20, 2007

Great news that yet another cheat has been found out. After Landis' stunning comeback in Stage 17 of the 2006 Tour, one that many people said couldn't be done without some kind of outside help. Flying to the lead near the start of a grueling Alpine stage, Landis regained nearly eight minutes against the leader, and went on to win the three-week race. I think the outcome of the result on stage 17 is self explanitory.

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comment by bio (U1649569)

posted Sep 20, 2007

"I have natural high testosterone. No wait, a had a couple of beers. No wait, I got hammered the night before the ride of my life." And then the Armstrong tactics of going after the testiing lab and ADA didn't really make him seem innocent.

Any other outcome than uphelding the ban owuld have been a farce.

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posted Sep 20, 2007

Yet another sorry outcome for the Tour De Farce.

He's been found guilty and should accept it.

He's lied, cheated, and what he got his lawyer to do to help his case with Greg Lamond (?) just beggars belief.

I just hope one day the Tour will be free of drug cheats.

But I live in the real world though don't I?

C'est la vie as they say....

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posted Sep 21, 2007

I'm glad. Shouldn't have taken so long.

Another of Lance's ex team mates caught bang to rights, Hamilton, Heras, Landis.

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comment by spxxky (U2159994)

posted Sep 21, 2007

As with all these cases, everyone is ready to jump on the 'point the finger' bandwaggon because everyone is willing to believe sensational stories - the cycling press will be filled with this saga yet again in the coming week and month milking it for all it's worth like tabloid newspaper sensationalism

The comments made here are of that 'belief' - that the testing was precise and that Landis should now accept it, but imagine if you'd been accused of something with no recourse to any kind of defence - what WADA, the UCI and the testing labs say goes.. heads we win, tails you lose. NOBODY has ever contested a doping case and won... EVER! and there have been innocent victims. Doesn't that strike a little suspicion in anybody's mind? Why don't we do away with trials for murderers, etc... just say they're guilty just because some dubious eveidence says they are - should we just convict the McCanns now on the so called evidence?

Has anyone here making comments even looked at the case file for Landis's test? I doubt they have - No, we are ready to believe the worst because it 'hits the headlines'

As for Stage 17, there is no way a 'shot' of testosterone the day before would make any difference whatsoever to the performance on that day - I'd suggest that 'many people' go take a sports science course and read up on the 'benefits' of testosterone use

Landis will 'have' to accept the outcome, but for me he won the 2006 TDF and nobody can take that experience away from him. Equally, Rasmussen rightly feels extremely agrieved at not winning this year - he HADN'T broken any rules, so his team sacked him to suit the organisers

There is also no consistency in this 'witch hunt'. Landis is now stripped of his title, Rasmussen was prevented from his, Riis was stripped.... what about Pantani? Take a look at his haematocrit levels for the year he won the tour and tell me he wasn't using EPO? According to everyone here he 'must' be guilty on the 'evidence' - how come he wasn't stripped???

To get cycling back on an even keel, the organisers, WADA, the UCI et al need to get their houses in order if they expect the cyclists to actually adhere to what they deem to be 'fair play'

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posted Sep 21, 2007

wookiee74 - I just hope one day Formula 1 can be free of cheats, but then I live in the real world though don't I?
The hypocrisy from fans of "other" sports just amazes me!

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comment by stwl (U4284084)

posted Sep 21, 2007

spxxky: I tend to agree. I felt an odd pang of sympathy for Vino and for Rasmussen, on the basis that they were being unfairly treated. You either throw out all the drug cheats or you throw out none of them... There's something wrong when some cyclists are feted as heroes long after their drug use is revealed, while others are condemned for the unfortunate circumstance that their cheating was exposed actually during their careers.

Having said that, I thought Landis's appeal was frivolous and I'm glad it didn't succeed. The outpouring of self-righteousness that would have ensued would have taken some bearing.

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posted Sep 21, 2007

great news, i hope we never see him again, should have a life time ban.

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posted Sep 21, 2007

Much as I admired Vino, it has to be said that his TT ride in the Tour was as obviously "suss" as Landis's barnstormer across the mountains was in 2006.

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posted Sep 21, 2007

Up until the Greg Lemond moment I was prepared to give Landis the benefit of the doubt. His orthodox religious upbringing, the transition from mountain bike to road racing all suggested an honest, hard working man. What his team did to Lemond is appalling and he should now be consigned to the rubbish bin of cycling history.

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posted Sep 21, 2007

If anyone here had read his book then you'd have some real doubts about this verdict. According to the facts, the results would have been interpreted in other countries as NEGATIVE, the lab made admin errors and didnt follow procedure. USADA wanted to "catch" a big name so their funding can continue to be provided due to the so called "good results" that they are achieving. Landis is the fall guy for the other clear cheats like Pantani.

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posted Sep 21, 2007

You can't condemn someone when you do not know the facts 100%. It it quite possible that his sample was tampered with or a mistake was made. As a cyclist myself i know that i can have a bad day and then the next day i'll feel good.

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posted Sep 21, 2007

Fleetfut - yes, but not that good!

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comment by Sonny (U3877544)

posted Sep 21, 2007

I've been watching the Tour De France for years and I'm sorry but Floyd Landis was absolutely guilty as sin. He was so pumped with testosterone once he crossed the finish line that he looked and behaved like an animal and needed a while to calm down before facing the press. When the news broke that he failed for testosterone after that stage I was not in the least bit surprised.

His reaction afterwards when quizzed reeked of guilt. He was clearly out of his depth and was saying things like he had naturally high testosterone levels (even though he was 3x over the level considered artificially raised) and the way he was awkwardly avoiding questions it was clear he knew he'd been caught.

Then all of a sudden he comes out with a new lease of confidence after employing a lawyer who specialises in getting people let off failed drugs tests and he starts going on about the sample being contaminated and errors in testing.

He was clutching at straws big time. He writes a book, he goes on tv all trying to convince people he's innocent. Well he had to didn't he? I work in a testing laboratory and the controls are so stringent that there is absolutely 0% chance of any samples being tampered with, and the positive B test would have taken place on a different day, maybe in a different laboratory and that came out positive too. How the hell do you accidentally contaminate samples with testosterone anyway?

The man is a cheat and good riddance.

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comment by spxxky (U2159994)

posted Sep 21, 2007

TheInvigilator - Most of Landis's time made up on that day was due to other teams not responding to his break away - Landis's riding on that day was not 'out of this world'. If you look at his average wattage the ride was not that spectacular

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posted Sep 21, 2007

oneball2 - Maybe your lab is perfect but the chain of custody errors for the original tests show that LNDD, in this case, was not. Indeed, the guilty verdict was based on the subsequent IRMS tests not the original T:E ratio tests, which the panel discounted as faulty. Also, the original tests did not show an elevated overall level of testosterone but an elevated T:E level.

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comment by Sonny (U3877544)

posted Sep 21, 2007

They still found him guilty. The level of T:E I heard was an 11:1 ratio with the cut off being 4:1, that's pretty damning.

It's Michael Rasmussen I feel most sorry for. He's the one with the real claim to having a TdF win unfairly taken from him.

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posted Sep 21, 2007

"Former Tour de France winner Floyd Landis has lost his appeal against a ban imposed following his failed drugs test at the 2006 race."


Good! Pereiro was a fine winner. It was obvious, to anyone who was actually looking, from Landis' face when he crossed the line on that day of infamy that he had taken something and, that it was testosterone. You didn't need a test to prove it. Anyone who's ever watched a power lifting contest knows that face very well!

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posted Sep 21, 2007

Do you remember Landis explaining the positive test as being due to whisky the night before!As good as hamilton's phantom twin excuse.
Roll on life time bans and then we will see clean cycling.

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posted Sep 21, 2007

It is bizarre to me that Landis still has his supporters, despite everything. I suppose we live in the age of internet conspiracy theorists, so we're all experts whatever our opinion. We're right even when we're wrong, and Landis isn't a cheat, even when he is.

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posted Sep 21, 2007

Actually, it's not. There are plenty of documented cases of T:E ratios in excess of 15:1 in athletes. The 4:1 cutoff is an arbitrary limit set by WADA based on average T:E levels (normally ~1:1 in sendentary males)

As I said, he was found guilty based on the IRMS tests for exogenous testosterone

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posted Sep 21, 2007

I think this whole incident is a scandal. How could anybody who knew he would be tested use so much testosterone that it would test 3+ times the legal limit. Youd have to be brain dead or set up. It's one thing to cheat, but to make it so obvious just lends credit to his defense. This whole thing stinks of conspiracy and Landis is getting screwed in the middle.

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posted Sep 21, 2007

Having read preceding comments, I know I'm not alone in my frustration. Where are the 'details' in your article. For someone well imbued with the history of this incident you may tell the story, but to others not so well versed there's a lot missing. Landis by all reports is not the friendliest guy and may or may not be guilty of the charges, however, where are the arguments in this appeal and the data used to deny the appeal? In a world of sport where walking and breaching the "grey line" is not only the norm but is the rule, the focus on Landis alone is a bit disconcerning to me. Maybe I'm alone in this regard. I hope not.

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posted Sep 21, 2007

How can you feel "sorry" for Rasmussen?

He missed dope tests, he lied about his where abouts.

It certainly makes me suspicious that he could have been taking for example, EPO a few weeks before the race to avoid failing the test during the TdF?

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posted Sep 21, 2007

I heard that Floyd was still judged guilty on 2 judges out of 3.

Whatever one's personal opinions; that reflects some dissent: maybe close to what the percentages of opinions here are.

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posted Sep 21, 2007

Landis seems to think he's innocent on the basis that the testing method is flawed, but however the tests may be flawed they are representative of the rules, not a loophole.

Perhaps he could tell the board that his mom fixed him up some testosteroni and cheese, so it wasn't his fault.

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posted Sep 21, 2007

It was obvious, to anyone who was actually looking, from Landis' face when he crossed the line on that day of infamy that he had taken something and, that it was testosterone.
==================================

** Such silly superciliousness.

Landis was found guilty by way of 2-1 vote of an arbitration panel which also criticized the sloppy French lab and threw out at least one result. Hardly a vote of confidence for the current status quo and weakly damning of Landis at best.

There has been something wrong with cycling for some dozen years or so if you listen to these honchos talking that run cycling. Just follow the money. Where there's lots of money there will be lots of cheating and thieving and usually it's these honchos who end up with the lion's share.

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posted Sep 21, 2007

How about hiring 1 or 2 back-up labs to do these drug tests ? I've heard they test is not done 'blind' and the results often get leaked to the media before the cyclist even knows the results. Something's wrong here. To keep things fair, the scientist doing the test shouldn't know the name of the cyclist.

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comment by shugnz (U9723341)

posted Sep 21, 2007

I hope Landis is innocent - cheating by drugs is a Faustian pact - if you get away with it and achieve fame and fortune there will always be that nagging little question in the small hours - could I have done it without the chemicals? - self esteem and image are closely related to depression - ultimately you only cheat yourself.

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posted Sep 21, 2007

doccarren writes
"I think this whole incident is a scandal. How could anybody who knew he would be tested use so much testosterone that it would test 3+ times the legal limit. Youd have to be brain dead or set up. It's one thing to cheat, but to make it so obvious just lends credit to his defense. This whole thing stinks of conspiracy and Landis is getting screwed in the middle. "

So if I killed someone with a big knife in broad daylight in front of 10,000 people with a with TV cameras on me, you would probably think I was innocent...after all, I would be a fool to commit murder like that.

People do stupid things every day, doccarren. Stop proving it.

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posted Sep 21, 2007

Sorry Birdman, but i like to keep an open mind with things like this especially when so many inconsistances have come up with the testing.

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posted Sep 21, 2007

"** Such silly superciliousness."

Well I'm sorry that you see it that way. I can honestly say that I knew from his face when he crossed the line that he'd taken testosterone, because I've seen how it affects people before.

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posted Sep 21, 2007

Hmmm. I look pretty annoyed during and after some of my commute rides. I must be doping! Wait, no, it's another natural hormone: adrenaline winkeye

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posted Sep 21, 2007

Watch the footage again. He looks like he's chewing his way through an iron bar. Unlike, the other, adrenaline-free riders!

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posted Sep 21, 2007

if you can tell who is on drugs just by looking at their face then you should work for WADA.
Remember Landis' hip was crumbling away thats why he looked in agony. Not saying he aint guilty tho

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posted Sep 21, 2007

"if you can tell who is on drugs just by looking at their face"

I only know the testosterone face. And see it very rarely in cycling, except on the track!

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posted Sep 21, 2007

I find the verdict almost irrelevant. I want to believe he's innocent (maybe some inner child that still believes in superman?), but I will never really know. The tour as it currently stands is a farce. First Landis was stripped of the yellow jersey due to the results from a unprofessional lab, and then the next year Rasmussen lost the yellow in an even more arbitrary manner. In both cases it fell on someone who was also tainted by accusations! Where Landis did succeed was in confirming years of rumours of sloppy preceedures at the lab. In this sense I feel sorry for him. If you are going to have your career destroyed by a questionable test result, you deserve to have that test conducted at the highest standard. There is no excuse for the carelessness in the testing at the lab. The Rasmussen scandal simply confirmed the carelessness and arbitrariness in the cycling anti-doping capain.

What the organizers need to realize is that if you want people to have any confidence in the tour, you need to ensure that the testing and rules are enfored in a manner that is beyond reproach. You cannot change the rules and oust the yellow jersey holder on the brink of victory on such questionable grounds. The rules, as they stood, allowed a few missed tests. As organizers, sponsors, etc. you have to live with the consequences of that, learn from your mistakes and fix it next time. In order to restore faith in cycling the rules need to be clear, fair to all, and enforced uniformly. The testing labs need to be beyond reproach. Arbitrarily ousting suspects and increasing penalties does nothing if you cannot be sure of guilt!!!

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posted Sep 21, 2007

The US anti doping organisation were out to get him regardless of whether he was guilty - that's how they get funding from senate - by taking down big names. They even offered him a deal if he made up some stuff about Lance so they could incriminate him too. There were 3 tests done on his samples - 2 of them showed a normal testosterone/epitestosterone ratio(but they chose to ignore these in favour of the one that showed an anomalously high ratio. Another misconception is that he had high testosterone levels but in actual fact they were low - it was just a spike in the ratio that caused the suspicion.
The document packet supplied from the lab was ridden with inconsistencies and when they requested a second copy, many details had been altered.... the list goes on but at the end of the day, to make out the sport is being cleansed the "authorities" are having to make these sacrificial lambs

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posted Sep 21, 2007

As already posted, losing his appeal on a 2-1 decision... even the arbitrator’s opinion was divided, little wonder ours are.

We read that Landis can't afford his legal defence but its OK because the USADA are going to pick up most of the tab (?), that David Witt (Landis father-in-law) committed suicide shortly after Landis' positive test was announced, that the laboratories didn't follow procedure (strange how the French newspapers seem to know so many ‘details’ so quickly), Dick Pound wades in with comments about Landis testosterone levels being so high that he was surprised he wasn’t ‘raping every virgin within 100 miles’, Landis has written a book (!), I believe there’s even charity if you want to donate… ah bless, I'm sure Greg can't wait to donate. As for that, throwing mud is one thing, but your 'team' didn't just cross a line they squarely skipped/hoped/and jumped right over it. That one was enough for me, good riddance.

And then there’s Rasmussen (what’s the weather like in Mexico… opps sorry Italy, at the moment? Did I get that the right way around, not sure I did. Boy am I confused.)… but its OK because Contador came through to win in fine style (mind you that head surgery was one hell of a thing to go through. Have you seen the scare!?)… still Astana were found out so the system must work… even the French, poor Wiggins sent home early.

And lets not mention OP… well maybe a little. Football / tennis, take a good look at us Lycra clad boys and girls and the sport (?) we follow (also, while you are at it take a glance at athletics, baseball, weightlifting, wrestling…), mock if you wish (and often do). We are your future! The last laugh eh? Still, I suppose you can afford the Ferrari (yes the car, not the mis-spelt doctor), is that enough?

… and now we find that for 2008 the ongoing power struggle between the UCI and ASO (with WADA stirring the pot) has resulted in the ASO pulling the TdeF from the ProTour with the Giro and Vuelta likely to follow … the ProTour, talk is its going global? Oh joy, spread the love.

How many more sensationalist headlines are the media going to be handed on a plate?

Little wonder there is so much ‘lazy journalism’ when it comes to cycling. It’s so easy!

Cut and paste, cut and paste.

This article asks if the Landis affair should be laid to rest? Fat chance. Bet Valverde is looking forward to the World Championships…

Until the governance of cycling is brought under control, and by that I mean the UCI and ASO getting their act together, there’s a lot more pantomime to come.

Rant over. No apologies. I am off for a ride now (yep, its dark, got to love those Cateyes)… all fired up on pure adrenaline.

All comments IMO of course, no win no fees... love it.

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comment by mee_py (U9726379)

posted Sep 21, 2007

I was on holiday when Landis 'won'. I left the family to watch his 'amazing' breakaway and thopught this is what the Tour is about. A brave guy taking on and beating all competitors. I also thought when he finished I hope he's clean. He wasn't. I hope no other pro team signs him up but think they probably will because hes a good rider.

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posted Sep 21, 2007

comment by oneball2
posted 6 Hours Ago
They still found him guilty. The level of T:E I heard was an 11:1 ratio with the cut off being 4:1, that's pretty damning.
----------------------------

Hey oneball, since you work in a testing lab, and leaving aside the point about Landis' T:E ration being due to low E, I heard that the T:E ratio from Landis' A sample was just barely over 4:1, while the T:E ratio from his B sample was 11:1.

Is that normal, or even possible? How can the T:E ratio increase like that? Seems to me there's either a natural process going on (so that the A sample result might have been negative - under 4:1 - if it had been tested an hour earlier), or the whole T:E tests "lacks precision", to put it mildly.

Then there's the whole 'ratio of 2 small numbers' aspect.

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posted Sep 21, 2007

Enjoy the ride - the dissenting member of the panel was appointed by the Landis team. He has a track record of supporting athletes over the testers. He also supported Hamilton's appeal.

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posted Sep 21, 2007

And doesn't the USADA have a track record of supporting testers over the athletes?

Which would make it seem like the panel was biased against Landis!

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posted Sep 21, 2007

And doesn't the USADA have a track record of supporting testers over the athletes?
====================================

** Quote:

Eddie Pells, AP....[[[But Landis also took his share of abuse, and ultimately, USADA still improved to 35-0 in cases it has brought before arbitration panels since it was founded in 2000.]]]

If anyone wants justice, they should go straight on to the gates of St. Peter, not this world.

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