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New TT Lap Record

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posted Jun 8, 2007

To be fair the level of competition and standard of rider at the TT these days is pretty low on a global scale. The TT ranks well below BSB for example, which in itself is only a national, not international series. How's McGuinnes fairing in the British Supersports? only around 5th in the championship isn't he?

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comment by tufty58 (U8596678)

posted Jun 8, 2007

I can't believe you wrote that (rossifumi) - there is a world of difference between the IOM TT and a race circuit - try remembering the saying - engage brain before opening mouth

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posted Jun 8, 2007

Which planet is Rossifumi on? I can only think he/she believes short circuit scratch racing is the dogs you know what. The incredible skill of the guys and gals who race around nearly 38 miles of 'normal' roads with all the attendant dangers of stone walls, lamp posts, telephone boxes etc cannot and should not be under estimated. Yeah yeah the choice is theirs blah blah but to compare the skill of such a lap compared to a lap of Donnington, Silverstone, Oulton Park etc is the ultimate insult.
Giacomo Agostini attempted to kill off the TT. Let's see how his compatriot, Valentino Rossi, would fare, eh? I have the maximum respect for riders of both types of track, but at the end of the day the TT and the NW200 will always be a far more exciting spectator sport than the sanitised Moto GP.

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posted Jun 8, 2007

Hmmmm. Let's face it. The TT is on a whole different level and a real test of any rider. That kind of racing has long since been lost in Formula One with the Nordschleife and MotoGP racing these days.

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posted Jun 8, 2007

But there's not actually any more 'skill' involved in riding a motorcycle fast whether the track is lined by gravel traps or stone walls - the only difference is the acceptance of the increased danger. You might as well tell the TT riders to ditch their helmets and leathers to make it even more dangerous - would you find that more impressive?....or just plain stupid?
The standard of rider at the TT doesn't come anywhere near that of MotoGP...or WSBK or BSB for that matter

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posted Jun 8, 2007

Rossifumi obviously hasnt watched much road racing, of which i am a huge fan and try to make it to a lot of road races! The skill involved is huge just to have the balls to do it is another thing. Check Rossi out at the North West or TT and we would see the road racers would win hands down different racing skills but they are good at what they do!

i support Guy Martin and as he said in his monthly column in Irish Racer 'its great to have the throttle open for more than 3 seconds, unlike them car park circuits in England'

i would also like to say Guys fastest lap was a 129.8 so not that far off and i believe next year we will see many more riders beat it next year

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posted Jun 8, 2007

But I have watched road racing and I don't accept that the SKILLS are different. Whether the track is lined by gravel or walls, cottages etc only comes in to play after something has gone wrong. Personally, if a rider makes a mistake or suffers a mechanical failure I'd rather see him slide across a gravel trap than see him break his neck whilst getting wrapped round a telegraph pole.....but I guess everyones' taste is different.

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posted Jun 8, 2007

The Isle of Man TT is a real test of both man and machine, using proper roads with twists, bends and hills. Racing round and round a basically circular track is merely mechanical. Rossifumi is quite right, "the standard of rider at the TT doesn't come near MotoGP"; it's in a different higher league!

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posted Jun 8, 2007

Sorry, Rossifumi, but I can't let you get away with what you're saying. I agree the only difference is the acceptance of the increased danger, and I can't see the Tynwald accepting nude motorbike racing, but you state John McGuinness is only around 5th in the BSB, but, and I repeat, where would Rossi, Pedrosa et al be on the TT leaderboard?
Maybe as well as the danger level, there may also be a difference in the bike being ridden??
Nah. Surely not?

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comment by puntino (U8597180)

posted Jun 8, 2007

Rossifumi, think you're missing the point. It's not so much about skill, it's about how tough you are and how much risk you're willing to take. Remembering 37 miles of corners is basically impossible. Why do you think there are 1 week of practices before the races. Same as Enduro and motocross, say or maybe the Maratona des Sables and the winner of the London Marathon.

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posted Jun 8, 2007

I note that these comments are moderated. Would the moderater like to point out to whoever left the Senior TT off the sport front page that 70,000 fans came over to see the Centenary TT. The Manx population pays the same TV licence to the UK but gets very little coverage. The TT is a great British tradition, attracts fans from across Europe and was won by an English rider with a new lap record. Come on BBC, celebrate a bit more!

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comment by tom_m_m (U3750106)

posted Jun 8, 2007

I have to agree the depth of the riders in road racing is not great. It is a fantastic spectacle and no doubt it is a different proposition to track racing, but I can't help but think it's more about how fast dare you go than actual racing ability. If you took the TT course and plonked it bang in the middle of a desert with no walls and lamposts I would take any sucessful track rider over McGuiness any day.

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comment by tufty58 (U8596678)

posted Jun 8, 2007

the TT has been on ITV 4 every night this week - also rossifumi - you are missing the point we enjoy the skill and speed not watching somebody "wrapped around a lampost"

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posted Jun 8, 2007

Tom_m_m I think you've got it exactly right. James Toesland was being interviewed and was asked whether he'd ride the TT and his answer was no because the people who he knows that do say they ride at about 75% and he reckoned he wouldn't have the discipline not to go flat out.
Also, look back to the days before the TT lost it's world championship status in 1977. The world championship was a mixture of short-courses and road course. Was it a different group of riders who won at each type of track or was it Agostini, Hailwood, Surtees etc who won everywhere?

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posted Jun 8, 2007

ok so rossifumi you honestly believe there is no more skill involved in road racing than there is in circuit racing? You really are a bit of a muppet arent you? Nori Haga was there today in the parade lap and he couldnt believe that people actually remember which way the circuit goes never mind do the speeds they do! There is a huge amonut of skill involved in road racing, how many time have we seen motogp, bsb, wsbk riders go wide onto the grass and just keep the power on, they know they will get away with it, for road racers they MUST keep the bike between the white lines or they wont get away with it. Rossifumi i challenge you to attend the Ulster grand prix and then tell me there is no skill involved!!!

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posted Jun 8, 2007

I don't think you can compare short circuit to road racing, they are very different disciplines in many ways. Go and ride the TT course and you'll be surprised how bumpy and complex it is, you can't see that from your TV screen. The bikes use completely different suspension setups, the course knowledge required to ride the TT is far more complex, the style of riding is different, the mentality and concentration required of the riders is different. The TT is a fascinating event that generates huge interest in the motorcycling community. The riders and the TT deserve a much bigger media profile. A 130 mph lap is an incredible achievement !!

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posted Jun 8, 2007

Road racing is something that all bikers would like to do, but 99.9% donít have the guts.

Riding on a track is like doing the trapeze with a nice big net below you in case something goes wrong. Road racing is doing the trapeze with nothing below you but the ground. Hell, Iíd give trapezing a go if there was a net below me. If not, then Iíd go nowhere near it.

There have been some TT greats Agostini, Surtees, Hislop, Foggy and Jefferies who went onto win many a title ON THE TRACK, how could they do this without any skill?

Anyone who doubts whether these blokes have skill or not, should watch the Macau GP, IofM TT or the Ulster races. The on board camera shots are enough to make your jaw hit the floor and the trust that you put in your mechanics is immense.

Circuit racers and road racers are slightly different breeds, but you cannot doubt the skill of either

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posted Jun 8, 2007

Conor - read what I have written properly before reacting (and also this is a discussion forum where everyone is entitled to express an opinion - use of personal insults such as calling someone a Muppet is immature and unnecessary). I have not said there is no skill involved in road racing, I have repeatedly said that there is THE SAME SKILL. I just don't believe that the best exponents of riding motorcycles fast on tarmac go to the TT. As I said; look at the world champioinships before 77 where both short courses and road courses (not just IOM) were used: the best riders came out on top everywhere. Also look at Hailwoods IOM comeback (was it 77 or 78): not ridden a bike competitively in nearly a decade whilst he was off doing F1, in the twilight of his carreer, on a bike he'd never ridden before yet he still won. Sure it says a lot about what a great rider he is but it also says a lot about the standards at the TT after it lost its' world championship status too. There's no way Hailwood could have come back to GP's under those circumstances and beaten Sheene and Roberts - I'm sure even he new that and that's why he never even attempted it.

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posted Jun 8, 2007

I don't reckon there's much debate to be had about the skill difference between closed circuit and road racing.....they both require extreme levels of skill; but road racing takes balls of steel, reinforced with titanium!!

I for one think that a 130mph lap of the IOM is mind blowing; not just because of the speed but more because of the amount of guts it takes.........AMAZING STUFF.

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posted Jun 8, 2007

Donnie Brascoe - not wanting to start an argument (honest! just enjoy a good discussion) but as for Ago, Surtees, Hislop etc. Yes Ago achieved a lot on short circuits but he started to refuse to go to the IOM even when it was still part of the world championship. Foggy - yes was a TT great but very early in his career; didn't actually go there when he was at the height of his powers. Hislop - a british superbike champion....but wasn't ever a world champion was he? And Jeffries - what did he actually win on short courses (genuine question not rhetorical - I don't actually know the answer).
So, do you genuinely believe that if they had the inclination and opportunity to go to the IOM that Rossi, Pedrosa et al wouldn't beat McGuinnes? (assuming they'd always been going there, learnt the course as much as McGuinness etc etc). Do you really not think that the standards are higher in MotoGP?

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comment by Capn767 (U8597902)

posted Jun 8, 2007

Rossifumi and Tom_m_m are probably right. If the skill factor required on the roads was higher, then surely the road racers would clean up on the short circuits. Conversly the fact that the smooth track racers don't sometimes fare so well at the TT may have something to do with a greater respect for their own lives and their families futures. BTW I enjoy the TT and have listened to Manx Radio TT all week. My inner self however realises that road racing success is more a matter of how much they are prepared to risk which is in no way a measure of absolute ability on a motorcycle. Of course they are all good at what they do but don't lets confuse ability with bravado.

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posted Jun 8, 2007

"Hislop - a british superbike champion....but wasn't ever a world champion was he?"

He was endurance world champion I think, along with foggy, and he might have been the F1 750 champ as well (precursor to WSB)

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posted Jun 8, 2007

Mcguiness is a Legend. 130 mph is immense and so much skill is needed to do that speed around the course. Anyone who says that there is less skill involved than british superbikes obviously don't know much about racing. TT is best bike race in the world just ask the 60,000 people here at the moment!

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posted Jun 8, 2007

Try ITV4 tonight at 9 for high-lights.

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comment by Biomaff (U8599366)

posted Jun 8, 2007

You all forget that modern motorcycle sport, like car sport, is as much business as sport - if not more so. Short cirucit riders at the top of their game are totally focussed on their respective Championships - hence Nicky Hayden withdrawing from the 8hr to focus on the MotoGP Championship. Hence, regardless of the size of ones b***s, if you are a BSB, WSB or MotoGP riders, and winning, your contract wont let you do anything else - regardless of what you may say in an interview ;)

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posted Jun 8, 2007

My Friend lost his life racing in the senior this afternoon he loved the challenge of road racing.
it is the greatest challenge in bike racing and it demands total commitment, bravery and skill.
i agree with Boycedinho

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posted Jun 8, 2007

The debate about road racing v track will always rage on. I was at the '79 TT when Hailwood was pipped at the post by Alex George by 3.2s or so. I will always remember that day. The TT is, in my view, an event which makes legends, track racing makes stars. Compare Hailwood, Dunlop, Jeffries, Heron etc with the likes of Sheene, Roberts and Rossi. I'm not trying to undervalue the track racers achievements, but there's something totally unique about the TT. A 130MPH lap is almost beyond comprehension and the skill, fire and guts (madness?!) of these riders is comparable to NO other sport. Come on Beeb, where's the coverage? F1 is a sanitised merry-go-round with similar appeal as a genuine sport to 1970's wrestling on ATV!! I'd like to finish by extending my deepest sympathy to the families of those lost at Milepost 26 today.

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comment by 600rr7 (U8599888)

posted Jun 8, 2007

I am gutted we have been going to the TT for the past 3 years,my eldest son is sitting his gcse exams and i have missed history made.
The BBC is paid for by us the license fee payers but they only report on Motogp which is no way near the same as Road racing.
Just on the point of the accident as the riders you watch the TT in the knowledge accidents may happen,thats what makes it so special you sit feet from the riders as they go past at speed.
To people who can not understand go to the TT then go to a track its just not the same.
My wife and 2 sons and me will be there next year to cheer the real racers on.
We have missed it so much well donr John and the rest of the real racers.
Leeds,West Yorkshire

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posted Jun 8, 2007

I disagree with Rossifumi. The skills MUST be different. A GP rider can go the extra one percent to break his opponents knowing that if it goes wrong he may live to tell the tale. A TT or NW200 rider cannot. One extra degree of twist on that throttle could well be the last action that person ever took. And sadly, too often has been.

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posted Jun 8, 2007

There is a marked difference between road racing and circuit racing. Road racers don't have to worry too much about the riders behind them, they only really have to worry about their time. However they do need to be much more aware of the road as it is not at all smooth compared to a track - you don't get manhole covers in the middle of a track!
In the sense that they need to be able to use the throttle, clutch, gears, and brakes then yes the same skills are applied between road racing and circuit racing, but there are a lot of different skills needed when you are racing against other riders to when you are just racing against the clock.

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posted Jun 8, 2007

RobMad69 - but as was said earlier, you are confusing skill with bravado; 2 different things.

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posted Jun 8, 2007

To all those who think the BBC doesn't cover the TT - you can get it via your Sky box on channel 973 from BBC Northern Ireland. They've been showing fairly decent coverage almost every night this past week. BBC NI also covers NI road racing usually Monday nights in a programme called Bikes!.

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posted Jun 8, 2007

I can only relate it to my own experience....I do a lot of track days, and can manage to get round snetterton at about 75% of the times 'proper' racers put in. On tuesday i crawled out of my tent at 5.30 am, and put in a reasonably uninterrupted lap of the mountain
circuit (giving myself a couple of bum clenching moments in the process) and managed....50% of john McG's record lap today. I have the UTMOST regard for the guys in all diciplines of bike racing.... BUT.... i really think the TT racers are in a league of their own.
And don't lets forget (like the BEEB and most other sports channels and commentators) the Boys on the outfits....bottle and balls of steel just don't get near it!....do you know we had an EIGHT times (or was it 9?)world champion in Steve Webster??.....never heard of him....not suprised......MCN and the rest of the press continually ignore this most entertaing area of the sport we all enjoy

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posted Jun 8, 2007

Typical BBC,this happens every year, the greatest road races in the world do not get a mention all week until somebody gets killed.

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posted Jun 8, 2007

I don't know how anyone can say that there is less skill in the TT races. It the best bike race in the world if it wasn't then why we have 60,000 people over to watch it!!! This race is pure skill and takes alot of guts to get on a bike and go round on a public road racing. BSB is nothing compared to the TT.
ROSSIFUMI- have you ever seen the TT at all?
It is a horrible thing when someone loses their life over it but they all know that they is a chance it could happen and i think it shows pure bravery to do it! John Mcguiness is a legend and Rossi wouldn't have anything on him over here thats why has doesnt ride in it!! deepest sympathy to the family of marc and the others involved

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posted Jun 8, 2007

'Road racers do it between the hedges' It is the ultimate test of a riders skill and concentration to get round the TT. No other track in the work is as demanding. 37 miles long and hundereds of corners.
John McGuinness has done an unbeleivable thing breaking the 130mph barrier for a lap.

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posted Jun 8, 2007

Watch BBC ONE NI @ 10.50pm tonight (Fri 8/6/2007).

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posted Jun 8, 2007

Ah, stance taking at its best. Everyone saying "my sport is best". And if it suits you, then thats great. But dont devalue what others like just because you dont. The original point was why didn't the Beeb make the new lap record a highter news item considering it is a Brit who achieved it.
Its down to money. And the Beeb is like any other business... money driven. Such is life.
Us British two wheel racing afficionado's should applaud any record/win by a Brit not denegrate it because we prefer the "other kind of two wheeled racing".
Enjoy your chosen racing preference.... one day it may be down graded by the Beeb also.. However, downgraded doesn't mean forgotten. Well done Beeb for your North West 200 coverage.. I await your TT coverage :)

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posted Jun 9, 2007

Andrew_IOM: the estimates of attendance seem to be going up and up! yours at 60,000 is the highest yet! however, over 85,000 go to Donington to the MotoGP - does that make the MotoGP "the best bike race in the world". No one has said there is LESS skill involved in the TT, however the riders that go there in my opinion are less skilled than those in MotoGP. The TT riders clearly have more bravado though.

Its_Mr_Dew_to_you: the point I was making about coverage was that the TT is no longer a world championship event. In fact it is a national or borderline clubman event, albeit with a lot of history and an illustrious one at that. MotoGP and F1 are genuine world championships with far greater global prestige and therefore will get more coverage. That's an undeniable fact not a 'my sports better than yours' opinion.

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comment by mtet123 (U8602914)

posted Jun 9, 2007

With regards to the amount of people attending the TT , the ferry prices are a lot dearer than say to France.The talent of the riders is amazing , as an ex club racer i bow down to these riders who show extraordinary skill way above most circuit riders .At a short circuit you have run offs and a lot wider safety margin. A lap record of 130mph is amazing just as all those who rode their own personal best times !!

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posted Jun 9, 2007

THis is my first comment so go easy. Firstly IMHO comparing roads racers to motoGP guys is like comparing rally drivers to F1 drivers. They are 2 completely different disciplines and therefore require a different skill set to compete at an international level. Secondly I note that someone mentioned that the TT has dropped in status. THis was inevitable with the complete proffesionalism of the major sports, which produce great but autonomous riders like Pedrosa. Can you really see Honda risk letting Pedrosa race in the TT, even if he wanted to??

I love both sports but I personally do not think they are comparable.

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posted Jun 9, 2007

Agree with Rog - they are not really comparable. Not sure if you have answered it earlier on Rossi, but have you been to the TT??

I suppose I believe it's a bikers duty to go to the TT at least once in thier life. :-)

The biggest bike manaufacturer in the world, Honda, place a damn lot of effort into the TT.

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comment by AndyRAC (U7186829)

posted Jun 9, 2007

Totally agree, the only time the news stations mention the TT is when somebody is killed.Those guys are absolute legends, just watching DVD's is scary, riding the Mountain Course must be something else. Also agree that although they're both 2 wheels, totally different sports, both fantastic sports that put the over rated and over publicised F1 to shame. When are 5Live going to get a Bike reporter, all we get is F1 this and F1 that, please, some variety.

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comment by vikvet (U8607300)

posted Jun 9, 2007

It's a shame that the achievements of McGuinness have been overshadowed by this tragedy. Having spent our honeymoon on the Isle of Man at the TT, there are some places on the course I wouldn't want to be watching in case something happened, however the 26th milestone didn't strike me as one of them.
my sympathies to the families of those concerned.
However to the article above, it is a statement of the amount of money that is ploughed into F1 that they receive such coverage above sports like the TT. But I do think it gives a false impression to those who have never been to the TT, that the main headlines are the breaking of the 130mph average lap, and not that Mcguinness has won two races in one week, and is right up there with the other racing legends like Hailwood and Joey Dunlop

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posted Jun 12, 2007

Very shocked that this race is still being run! Over 200 deaths in its 100 year history, thats more than 2 a year.

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posted Jun 12, 2007

David Jefferies won the British Superstock or Supersport championship on more than one occasion. Not bad for a mountain of a man on a pretty much standard bike.

Also, Forgarty has made a plea for more road racers to turn to the short circuit as he states that some of them are tremendously talented. The fact that Foggy didnít return to the TT races once he had hit the big time, says nothing. If anything, it would suggest that it was simply too dangerous for him. Why go back to Road Racing when you make more than enough money doing bike racing in comparative

Whilst Hislopís Superbike Championship may have only been a domestic one (BSB), it is still the most prestigious and most competitive domestic series in the world. Hizzy also held the Donnington lap record for sometime on a Ducati Superbike , which even the Moto GP bikes or World Superbikes could not beat for a couple of years.

Road racers and circuit riders are incredibly brave and incredibly talented. However, you can tell who has the cushty numbers if they were asked to swap. Road racers would certainly give race tracks a go Ė however I doubt that circuit riders would give road racing a go.

Rutter, McGuiness, Plater etc are the exceptions to the rule

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posted Jun 20, 2007

"Also, Forgarty has made a plea for more road racers to turn to the short circuit as he states that some of them are tremendously talented. The fact that Foggy didnít return to the TT races once he had hit the big time, says nothing. If anything, it would suggest that it was simply too dangerous for him. Why go back to Road Racing when you make more than enough money doing bike racing in comparative " (safety)

Donnie - that is exactly my point! when riders 'hit the big time' and can make enough money short circuit racing then that is what they do; leaving the TT to the ones that can't.

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posted Jun 25, 2007

The main difference between road racers and circuit racers is that circuit racers can race almost every week if they wish and if they are good enough it is possible to make a good living out of something they enjoy doing.
Road racers however are limited to a few meetings a year and are lucky if they can break even during the season.Most of them do it for the love of the sport,even if they know that realistically they are unlikely to come away with anything but their own satisfaction.
They are usually two different outlooks on life with a few exceptions of course,but they
all enjoy their racing.
The things that spoil the T.T. are the cost
of getting there and the difficulty of arranging accomodation especially after about the end of April.
Yes there are too many lives lost but I hope when I die it is when I am doing something I
really love doing as opposed to wasting away in an old peoples home.Everyone is an individual in their own right so don't keep knocking others because you don't agree with their own decisions.

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