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If Button leaves..

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posted Nov 13, 2009

Button has stuck with BAR/Honda/Brawn through thick and thin, & took a huge paycut last year...he's not asking for a paycheck like Kimi, Hamilton or Alonso, he just wants his old level reinstated.

I personally want him to stay with Ross, but you can't hold it against Jenson for at least exploring his options

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posted Nov 13, 2009

Kobayashi to sign alongside Rosberg for Brawn next year?? :P

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posted Nov 13, 2009

I don't really understand your point. The first paragraph espoecially.

I think that the word you are looking for is "presumptuous", on behalf of Ross Brawn. To assume that he could ditch Rubens, with his underwear inside out on the grass verge of Formula 1, and then expect Jenson to just trot along nicely and play ball without making a fuss.

Jenson owes Ross and the team very little, certainly no more than they owe him. An insulting pay bargaining round is not going to make someone want to do them any favours.

Ross might be a great engineer and strategist when the wheels are turning, but man management and driver contracts in the closed season are another thing entirely.

Why is no one asking "why isn't Kimi trying to get a seat at Brawn". After all, it's a car that has a championship winning auto pilot? In fact, why isn't there a queue outside the Brawn offices?

Indeed, it was clearly the best car of 2009 erm

I'd like Jenson to stay at Brawn though, it just makes sense.

I also think that Jenson will do better at McLaren than Brawn will do with Rosberg + whoever they can get at the last minute, as Kimi's clearly not interested and would rather race reindeer on Ferrari's pay than drive Ross's car it seems.

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posted Nov 13, 2009

Disrespectful of Jenson?

He won the WDC in a car that had development all but stopped after Turkey and is asking for a salary increase that takes him closer to what he was earning before Honda pulled out. If the figures are to be believed he is not even asking for parity with Lewis/Alonso/Kimi...

I think as WDC he deserves it and it would seem he is not being unreasonable.

One wonders what the sticking point(s) is/are...

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posted Nov 13, 2009

Regardless of where Jenson, Kimi, Alonso etc drive, I think Hamilton could walk it. At the end of last season they had the best car, it's only going to get better and he has improved as a driver.

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posted Nov 13, 2009

Why is there so much criticism about Button when he is the world Champion, I don't get it
Kimi isn't champ?
Alonso isn't champ?
Hamilton isn't champ?

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posted Nov 13, 2009

red, the criticism is mainly from those who believe that Hamilton has a divine right to be champion.

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posted Nov 13, 2009

Come on Jenson is not asking for kings ransom and if Brawn are get Mercedes backing 8m a year is nothing for a world champion these days

I wonder what Mercedes are thinking amongst this

Do they want Jenson in the future silver team with NO 1 or are they gonna let him run to their former silver team and carry No 1 and have all the glory and attention !

its the perfect poker move by Jenson's management and Mclaren just to throw both Kimi and Brawn off

Next move Kimi and Brawn to break the deadlock


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posted Nov 13, 2009

The only reason Button is visiting the Maclaren factory is to use it as a bargaining chip with Brawn. If he was to join Maclaren, then he would be on a par (car wise, that is) with Hamilton, and all hopes of successive WDC would be all but gone, as he is easily the paler driver by comparison, and you can be sure he knows it.

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posted Nov 13, 2009

Why can you be sure he knows it?

In fact nobody will know unless they become team mates. I am sure that Jenson is 100% convinced he is better than Lewis and vice versa.

Where does this banality come from??

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posted Nov 14, 2009

I'm not sure having them both in the same team is a good idea. Two highly competetive guys could have its ruptures. I believe you should have a strong guy, then a back-up, or up and coming driver who wont quarrel too much.

Two drivers wanting exactly the same thing could go very wrong- like when Alonso came. I think Hamilton would walk all over him, and Jenson would get overlooked and have a bad season. Jenson is best where he is- better for Hamilton as well.

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posted Nov 14, 2009

Button and Hamilton at the same team will be a good thing, i would love to see it happen

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posted Nov 14, 2009

hamilton would beat button comfortably.kimi would be a far bigger test

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posted Nov 14, 2009

Button should drive for Brawn for free as far as I'm concered - that's how much he owes his team for giving him the chance to become the world champion after many years in the doldrums.

I hope his greed backfires on him.

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comment by Karm257 (U9851390)

posted Nov 14, 2009

Button at Maclaren?

Now that is the funniest thing I've heard all week.
What I can't envisage is Button (a World champion now) agreeing to being second fiddle to Hamilton. Whether by contract or (more likely) on the track.

Hamilton will outclass and out shine this driver.
What amazes me is the fact that people are STILL struggling with the fact that it was the package around button that got him the championship and pound for pound Hamilton is by a country mile the more courageous and talented driver.

Button should rethink! As a precedent he should look back at the Hill career....He was exactly the same...the package gave him his championship.

As somebody has once said on here already 'it's takes an educated monkey to drive one of these things now'

or

'My wife could drive one with the kids in the back.'

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comment by JeffFew (U9446749)

posted Nov 14, 2009

Button was a nothing driver all these years, and was lucky to get a podium finish let alone a WDC. Then a new team comes along and smokes all around them, winning the CC and coming 1st and 2nd in the WDC, Button happening to be the man in the seat. He must see that his success was primaryly due to the car rather than the driver, so how can moving to a team that did poorly last season help him? Apart from financially of course. Look what happened to Damon Hill - won the WDC, took the number 1 sticker to a weaker team, vanished into obscurity.

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comment by bones (U13798096)

posted Nov 14, 2009

Button and Hamilton in the same team would be great if they were allowed to genuinely race but i still feel Hamilton would have to be top gun and i cant see Button going along with that.
Button should stay with Brawn to show it was Brawn that won the title on their own merit.!"!

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posted Nov 14, 2009

I think the new rules will have a considerable effect on drivers. Tyre management will be more crucial and smooth driving will be rewarded which will favour Jenson. Also the narrower front tyre will make the balance more understeery. Jenson thrives on understeer where as Lewis prefers an oversteery car. However, if Jenson were to go to McLaren the chasis would be honed towards Lewis style from his feedback on development on the car.. Would be interesting...

Personally I think on 2009 rules Lewis would have the edge - just - as I think he's probably the quickest on the grid. I don't think anyone could beat Jenson comfortably, Rubens aint slow and came 3rd in the drivers championship by the way Jeffew!!

Bring on next year!!!

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posted Nov 14, 2009

I don't understand the knocking of Button (and Damon Hill) that they get time and time again. Driving these cars is not as simple as a scale from worst driver to best driver. Some drivers can get more from a mediocre car than others ( Barichello over Button at the mid-latter part of the season) and some drivers can make a good car fantastic (Button at the beginning of the season whilst the red bulls seemed to be as good as if not better). It is a lot of the time down to a particular driving style and buttons main problem seemed to be heat in the tyres, mixed with a smooth driving style did not work so well.

A lot of things make a world champion, persistance and making the most of oppurtunities.

I would always feel happier with a world champion who wins through dogged determination rather than resorting to cheating and bending of rules.

By the way, Buttons overtakes this season were some of the best we've watched in years, I am a happy man. So yes lets see Button in a Mclaren and have a fair fight for the WDC even if neither driver win it, it'll be incredibly comptitive.





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comment by danctr (U8668265)

posted Nov 14, 2009

For those comparing Button to HIll, you may need to know that Damon HIll had already been told at the end of 1995 that his contract was not going to be renewed at the end of the following year. Hilll went out and won the championship anyway, but all the competitive teams already had their driver lineups sorted so he had to take any option that came to him....

Button is in a better position regarding the drives that are available but I personally think he'd be best at Brawn as I have a feeling that car will be just as good next year. And why leave just as the going gets good.

P.S

Hamilton also had the best car out there last year and still had to drive it, the sam as Button this year....... See the point I'm making.

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posted Nov 14, 2009

For those having a go at Damon Hill i honestly would not,He was 35/36 when he went to Arrows and did nearly get a win there but his engine blew up,He also got a podium whilst he was at Arrows and of course won in spa with Jordan,Hill was a great driver and because of his decision to join late did not have some of the know how other drivers may have had,He won a title in a great car and got wins in podiums in uncompetitive cars which is something Button has not because when he won with BAR that car was very competitive.

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comment by ben (U14194998)

posted Nov 14, 2009

I take it you have driven an F1 car? Could you tell us/me what it was like!? Oh... you haven't.

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comment by Red_5 (U1579027)

posted Nov 14, 2009

danctr (U8668265)

Hamilton also had the best car out there last year and still had to drive it, the sam as Button this year....... See the point I'm making.
______________________________________________

Erm no hamiltons championship winning car was not as good as the ferrari

The Brawn team got lucky in getting there noses ahead of the pack with there double defuser, which to be fair on them wasnt there fault as the other teams missed a trick.

Thing is Button knows this and probably doubts that Brawn can repeat this with the big gun teams like Mclaren that caught them up in the second half of the season.

Mclaren do need a strong second driver if they ever want to land the WCC as relying on hamilton to pull the points in alone is a tall order (kovi was woeful all season).

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posted Nov 14, 2009

Karm257 said.."As somebody has once said on here already 'it's takes an educated monkey to drive one of these things now'..."

Really!

I suggest you put that proposition to one of the "boy racers' idols" a certain Richard Hammond, who found it far more difficult than he thought, in fact he couldn't do it. The fact is that most drivers could not even get an F1 car out of the pit lane without either stalling or spinning, a fact that applies to most single-seater series.

Such comments show how little you know about motorsport in general and F1 in particular

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posted Nov 14, 2009

So many people do not have a clue on this message board.

For the guy who said his mum or kids could drive a formaula 1 car you are showing you have no idea. You have to be super fit, stong and telented to drive those cars,

Do not compare Hill and Button, different qualities and a different era. Hill did have a great car however he proved time and time again he was a brilliant driver, just look at Suzuka 94 and Hugary 97 in that awfull Arrows car.

Button is also a fantastic driver who fully deserved his championship last year, I do agree that Hamilton is better but only just, there is not much between all of these guys.

I would love to see Button with Hamilton in the same team but I dont think it would work.

My final point is someone said Button is greedy, wrong! He took a massive pay cut to stay at Brawan, paid for his own travel for him, his dad and his trainer/manager. The top drivers are on a lot more than 8million, Button went from this to 3million to help the team, he is a team player.

Thank you!

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posted Nov 14, 2009

applause

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posted Nov 14, 2009

Button has to think about his future, I think he earned a lot less than 3m reading between the lines - I'd move if I were him

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posted Nov 14, 2009

in an ideal world Nick Heidfeld is the driver who would be best suited and deserves the most a drive at McLaren.

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posted Nov 14, 2009

Button is in danger of allowing history to repeat himself with changing teams at the wrong time.

There is considerable speculation that Mercedes could buy into Brawn, and leave McLaren having second string development and engines compared to this year.

Ross Brawns talents in making a car out of compromise, are not always evident at McLaren since Newey left. Without Mercedes sitting alongside McLaren tere is no guarantee that they will come up with the packages they have had in the past.

Also development must be an issue, LHs ill judged early season comments indicated he had little idea in develpoing car set up, or much faith in the McLaren design team.
He is still inexperienced in lots of ways in F1, and it could be next years car could not be quite at the races for a number of factors.

With a major engine deal, better sponsorship, and freedom to earn, Button could be better off staying put.

Where were McLaren last year anyway when Button looked like he was without a drive? They rated him so highly they kept Kovalinen instead, good judgement call there McLaren!

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posted Nov 14, 2009

It makes me laugh when armchair driving experts criticise driver...an educated monkey...right.

We saw how hard Richard Hammond, a man used to driving cars much faster than most of us, struggled to even get an F1 car into its operating window, let alone running anywhere near its optimum range. So what chance do you have???

In the current circle of drivers in F1 there is very little that separates them. Often it is conditions or particular car characteristics that favour the eventual winners as well as the occasional slice of good fortune or strategic decision.

There are of course times we see total team dominance - 1988, 1989, 1992, 1996, 2001, 2002, 2004 and the first few races of 2009 for example, but even then you have to bring the car home. Would Luca Badoer have delivered the same results if he was offered MS's 2002 car for example?

Jenson was offered his first real chance at a WDC this year and took it in a car that was no longer front running by Silverstone and 3rd best by the end of the season. That, by any judgement, means he has what it takes.

The only WDC's I have ever thought were tainted, were MS's in 2002 and 2004, where it was clear that the car was light years ahead of the competition, yet his team mate was not allowed to have a legitimate challenge for the title, unlike Senna and Prost in 1988/89. I think 1994 is too, but not for the same reasons.

If Jenson leaves Brawn it will be their loss, not his.

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posted Nov 14, 2009

id definately move for any pay offer less than his 2008 pay level plus 25% and a share of the sponsorship.
Which ever team he goes with will have the number 1 on their car and so the sponsors and big money will follow, so why shouldnt he have a percentage of money he has helped attain.

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comment by Bill36 (U6675160)

posted Nov 14, 2009

Button would be crazy to move to Hamilton's team. He'd be the No 2, with all that means. At Brawn, he's the No 1. And after all, he's not short of a bob or two.

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posted Nov 14, 2009

Jenson needs to think hard about the future and not about the money, although I do think he should move if he is to grow as a person. This year Jenson came of age in winning the WDC crown. But if you look ahead you may see a couple of scenarios.

If he stays at Brawn and the car is not great then he could lose the momentum he has in his career. Suddenly he will be back in the pack and fairly quickly forgotten by the other team managers and become an also ran. Everyone will say, it was the car and not Jenson.

Stay at Brawn without much pay though and arguably that is 5m towards a more competitive car, which is clearly Ross Brawn's thinking.

If Jenson moves to McLaren he is at risk of being compared directly with Lewis. If Jenson is good, the championship winning drive showed he can be the best when 'driven' to be so, he should not fear the test. OK, the McLaren is a car built for Lewis but Jenson has to ask himself whether he believes in himself enough to take the challenge. Sometimes you have to step outside your comfort zone to develop yourself.

I think Jenson should believe in himself and move. It will be interesting. Not an easy decision but it is all about whether he believes in himself.

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posted Nov 14, 2009

I feel in a bit of a dichotomy here; I too would like to see two British World Champions in a competitive British car and I would also like to see Jenson up against Lewis. However, it would also be noce to see him stay and develop with 'his' team.

The trouble for Jenson is that if he stays at Brawn and they give him a front running car and he does well, everyone will once again say it's the car that's good. If they're not competitive, everyone will say he's not a top driver after all.

If he goes to McLaren, he'll be up against one of the most competitive drivers in the field. And if he does well, it will go a long way to silencing his critics.

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posted Nov 14, 2009

So Button got $3million in 2009, maybe less but he got a hell of a lot more while he was back marker at Honda for many years so stop feeling sorry for the guy. I'm sure he is comfortably well off. Fairweather racer who got into trouble when he left Williams before his contract was up and then more problems later on. I wouldn't have expected more from him to leave Brawn.

Now if this happens, Rubens, who was more consistent than JB in many races gets the boot to Williams. Maybe he can go back to Brawn? Maybe Kimi will take a seat at Brawn. It's silly season and no doubt will get sillier

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posted Nov 14, 2009

comment by roddersrugbyref (U7032234)
posted 53 Minutes Ago

Button is in danger of allowing history to repeat himself with changing teams at the wrong time.
------------------------------------------

Do you mean the whole Williams/Bar Honda thing? He got slated (wrongly IMO) at the time but with the benefit of hindsight, it was the best move of his career!

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posted Nov 14, 2009

i'd go, McLaren have, the pay, the car, the team, the ideal partnership driver, and the MONEY!...

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posted Nov 14, 2009

I honestly think Jenson would be shown up for pace by Hamilton at Maclaren. He should stay at Brawn and be outperformed by Rosberg instead.

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posted Nov 14, 2009

I think people overly criticise Button over contract issues for completely the wrong reasons.

In 2000, Button (probably wisely) signed a long-term contract with Williams (Much as Hamilton and now Hulkenberg have with McLaren and Williams respectively).

However, for 2001, FW wanted to bring in Montoya, which was at the expense of Button (since Ralf Schumacher was on a more lucrative contract), so Button was loaned out to Benetton.

Ralf Schumacher performed better than expected in 2001/02, so was rewarded with another new contract, so leaving Button in the lurch, and since Button wouldn't sign a management contract with Flavio, he was left without a drive for 2003 (although he was STILL contracted to Williams).

In 2004, Williams tried to bring Button back (As per the terms of his contract), but the CRB decided that BAR had a legitimate hold on Button, but that he would have to move to Williams in 2006. In 2006, Button bought himself out of this contract, committing himself to Honda.

All of the apparent contract shenanigans were down to the fact that a 20 year old Button had needed to sign a contract with an F1 team, since he had no money available to him in order to race in F3 for another year, so made the reasonable decision to jump straight into F1.

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posted Nov 14, 2009

i think Rosberg will definately be at Brawn now, possibly partnered by Kubica if Renault pull out and Button leaves. It would seem Raikkonen will be taking a year out because he has priced himself out of the only decent seats on the grid (McLaren and Brawn)

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comment by Red_5 (U1579027)

posted Nov 14, 2009

The artist formerly known as!

Thanks for the link, was well funny seeing hammy struggle

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posted Nov 14, 2009

this , to me, looks as if McLaren are trying to hedge their bets. everyone always talks about the prost v senna days and what we'd have in hamilton v button is a very similar mix of driving styles. ones aggresive and twitchy and the other smoother. two different waysn of getting the result-in exactly the same way that prost and senna were different. with the lack of refuelling the strategy gets opened up and this driver line up would be the best of both worlds. dont necessarily think Hamilton would come out on top either...but that's the expectation

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posted Nov 14, 2009

I have mixed feelings on the issue.

On the one hand, Brawn gave him a title-winning car and helped to get him where he is now. It would be nice to see him repay the team by staying on - especially as he will undoubtedly have No.1 driver status, whoever replaces Barrichello.

On the other hand, will next season's car suffer the same way McLaren and Ferrari suffered at the beginning of last season (even allowing for no major rule changes next season).

Money shouldn't really come into it - not after the length of time he has been in the sport. Provided he hasn't blown it all on his playboy lifestyle, he should be comfortably well off.

The downside of joining McLaren, is that the car has been developed largely to suit Lewis. A new team and new environment will take time to get used to. Button could find himself in the same situation as when Fisichella moved from Force India to Ferrari.

If he truly believes it will further his career, then I'm behind him all the way. I just hope he isn't blinded by $ signs flashing in front of his eyes.

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posted Nov 14, 2009

comment by The artist formerly known as! (U767231)
posted 11 Minutes Ago

In 2004, Williams tried to bring Button back (As per the terms of his contract), but the CRB decided that BAR had a legitimate hold on Button, but that he would have to move to Williams in 2006. In 2006, Button bought himself out of this contract, committing himself to Honda.
-------------------------------------------

That's not quite how I remember it. He signed a new contract with Williams in 2004, then the CRB ruled that he had to stay at BAR for '05.

In '05 Williams lost the BMW deal and the associated sponsorship, so seeing that it wans't going to be theam he'd signed for, Jenson decided to buy himself out of the deal.

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posted Nov 14, 2009

The Brawn is a consistantly good car and that won them a world championship despite consistancy pushing them down the grid as the inconsistant cars jumped up and down the grid around them mid/late season.
Jenson is a great consistant driver well suited to the Brawn, and I can't help but feel he would struggle in a car like the McLaren which needs a driver who can take it by the throat in the way Hamilton has to.

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posted Nov 14, 2009

If Button goes to Mclaren he will never see another World Championship as long as Lewis is in the same car because when it comes down to it, Lewis is simply a much better driver.

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posted Nov 14, 2009

McLaren a 'British' car? It's a German car!!

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posted Nov 14, 2009

Button was such a nice guy to take a salary cut to 3m. Lucky for him that he lives in a tax haven. Now that he has choices, the greed is showing up again.

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