posted Jul 15, 2009

Crucially Hushovd went too early, so he not only did not win but was not in the top 3 either. Now Cav goes from 6 points down to 7 up in the points. He says Paris is the only stage he cares about now but grab a giant ladle and get some salt will you!? He'll be keen to win more and build an unnassailable green jersey lead.

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posted Jul 15, 2009

Columbia rode a near-perfect lead out. I was a bit concerned when Milram got up there in an effort to spoil the party, but they went too early. Young Farrar of Garmin is definitely coming on, but he has not quite figured out how to stop the juggernaut that is Mark Cavendish. Also agree that Hushovd went too early, he was washed away by the finish, and Freire obviously also wasn't where he wanted to be.

Great win for Mark Cavendish today - I hope he can make it all the way to Paris and perhaps have the reward of a green jersey at the end of it.

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posted Jul 15, 2009

good lad !

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posted Jul 15, 2009

Yep - personally I think it could possibly have been a different story if Freire had been better placed - but I'm Spanish - so all credit to Cav for a superb sprint and the entire team for their beautiful work.

By the way MSB, I fully understand your elation, but no word for the team?

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posted Jul 15, 2009

Cav's a great sprinter but the help he's getting from the team is priceless.

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posted Jul 15, 2009

As a novice who has been very impressed by Cavendish's performances, can someone explain why he is 138th having won three stages?

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posted Jul 15, 2009

comment by I_hate_byes (U13966433)
posted 1 Minute Ago

As a novice who has been very impressed by Cavendish's performances, can someone explain why he is 138th having won three stages?

----------------------------------------------

exactly the question running through my mind... apparently hes over an hour off the lead. is it because in the races he hasnt won he has been really awful???

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posted Jul 15, 2009

when the tour goes through the mountain stages, like the weekend that has just gone, the sprinters normally end up in almost a second peleton that just has the aim to make it over the mountains, they're not climbers, their aim is just to win as many flat stages as they can and go for the green jersey. so the sprinters normally end up around 20 minutes or so back from the top of the general classification.

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posted Jul 15, 2009

It's because generally sprinters fall way back on the mountain stages and simply trundle in at a speed that will allow them through to the next stage (you get eliminated if your time is a certain percentage above the stage winner's). You can expect them to easily drop 25 minutes on a tough mountain stage.

Essentially, the muscle-mass, power and build you need for sprinting makes you heavier and less adapted to going uphill. However, if you're heavy and still good enough on the lumps, you don't normally go for the sprints because they don't earn you a time advantage and they're frickin' dangerous unless you're called Eddy Merckx or Bernard Hinault or similar.

So basically it's a completely different competition the sprinters are involved in - they're not concerned with the overall classification.

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posted Jul 15, 2009

The Tour de France has multiple competitions (or objectives) at the same time, the winners of each are denoted by the different jerseys they wear.

* Yellow - the guy who has the yellow jersey when the peloton reaches Paris is the one who wins the Tour de France. It's the jersey Lance Armstrong is competing for. You get to wear it if it took you the least amount of time to finish all the stages so far. The amount of time someone loses during a flat stage is nothing compared to what you can lose in a mountain stage or a time trial. Cavendish isn't very good at either, so he lost a lot of time during the first time trial and then even more during the mountain stages. Another Brit, Bradley Wiggins, is doing very well in the fight for this jersey.

* Green - the guy who wears the green jersey is the most consistent or best sprinter. This is what Cavendish is fighting for. He has a good shot because he is easily the fastest out of them all in the flat sprints. His main competition is a big Norwegian called Thor Hushovd (who has won it once before). Thor is slower than Cav on the flat sprint finishes (everyone is really), but he's better when the roads finish uphill like they did in Barcelona. Cav's best bet for green is thus to win every flat stage (he's doing very well in that department so far) and to hope that Hushovd doesn't grab points in a stage that's too hilly for him.

* Polkadot - the polkadot jersey is for the King of the Mountains. There are points to win on each mountain summit, with mountains classified as category 4 (hills), cat 3, cat 2, cat 1 and hors de categorie (beyond categorisation).

So it's not really a question of Cav being "really awful" in the stages he hasn't won, it's just not his speciality (nor his job). He's there to win the flat stages (which he has) and when the peloton reaches the mountains all he needs to do is finish, regardless of his time. You can check the general classification, all the sprinters (Cavendish, Hushovd, Freire, Rojas, Farrar, Ciolek..) will be way down.

Hope this clears it up. Don't be afraid to ask if you've got more questions!

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posted Jul 15, 2009

"when the peloton reaches the mountains all he needs to do is finish, regardless of his time"

I wanna correct myself a little bit by saying that this isn't completely true. There is a cut off point before which they have to cross the line, but as long as they stay within limit it doesn't matter if Cavendish finishes 50th or dead last, it won't make a difference as regards to the green jersey he's fighting for.

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posted Jul 15, 2009

To add to Its Only A Game's comment that "they're frickin dangerous", for this see the sprint finish, can't remember how many years ago (could probably Google it but can't be bothered) when Abdujaparov crashed on the Champs Elysee and hit a few crash barries. Think that he got up, got back on his bike and finished.

Someone, who no doubt has a better memory than me, will no doubt correct my errors.

But it was an example of just how dangerous, and how mental the sprinters have to be.

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posted Jul 15, 2009

"So I guess you've proven the doubters than you might struggle with the uphill sprint now?"

The Cav; "Who said that? Foreigners?"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ROFL. Great to finally have a true ego and who backs it up. I love it.

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posted Jul 15, 2009

What is generally the maximum lead the peleton will let the breakaway riders have on a flat stage?

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posted Jul 15, 2009

comment by MissGingerWhinger (U14051701)
_________

Another horrendous crash took place in 94. I think that was the day Laurent Jalabert decided to quit sprinting and who'd blame him?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pya6ZVW-oKg

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posted Jul 15, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atLARyU24kU

This year's Scheldeprijs. Cav wasn't there, but Boonen, McEwen, Van Avermaet all go down hard. Look at that and imagine 100 other riders trying to get in the mix as well.

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posted Jul 15, 2009

Lets not get carried away, he in 134 place overall, over an hour behind the leader. We probally wont finish the tour in Paris due to his poor stamina. I am one of many that firmly believe that cyclists who are incapable of completing the grand tours should not be allowed to enter. To me its a bit like robery. Bradley Wiggins is the real British hero.!

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posted Jul 15, 2009

Cav's achievement is equal to that of any British sportsman of the last decade. Pity it didn't even merit a mention on the BBC Six-o-Clock News. By rights, he should be nailed on for the Sports Personality of the Year, but he'll be lucky if he gets in the top five. Still, he has the consolation of being a household name on the continent.

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posted Jul 15, 2009

Hi, i don't have a huge knowledg of cycling but i do admire the sport. Can someone please explain to me what the Green Jersey is for. I know the yellow jersey is for the overall leader but only heard about the gren jersey ths year.

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posted Jul 15, 2009

No offence Rockyfive - but if you believe riders who may not finish (he's still there, after all) shouldn't be allowed to start it sounds like you don't know all that much about cycling. Further evidenced by the fact that you're dissing Cav for being an hour down in the GC while that's not why he's there.

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posted Jul 15, 2009

rockyfive you're clearly an idiot. getting carried away is one thing, but recognising the significant achievement of Cavendish is another. Not many people have ever won more than one stage on the tour, the fact that he's 134th is irrelevant because he has come specifically to win the green jersey, hence his team's tactics whenever they get into the final kilometer. I do however agree that Wiggins is not getting as much credit as he deserves. You also make a further stupid point. You criticise Cavendish saying he probably won't finish the tour (I'm not sure what you're basing that on) and then say because of that he shouldn't be allowed to enter. I don't think anyone comes into the tour to just do a stage and go home, and besides that we haven't even got to the end of the tour so you don't know who is incapable of finishing, which makes your whole point completely redundant. sort yourself out.

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posted Jul 15, 2009

Great win for Cav, Renshaw was awesome again!!

Just a quick question, anyone know why Edvald Boasson Hagen aint riding the tour?

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posted Jul 15, 2009

Rockyfive, your talking pure mince. In a little over a year he's raced 20 odd TdF stages so far and he's won eight. Eight. Most pro's would be ecstatic to win one in a ten year career!

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posted Jul 15, 2009

Edvald is young and awesome. He could become a more than excellent classics man who can do something in the intermediate tour stages as well. Best not to burn him out too soon.
Columbia's team as it is right now is obviously working really well for them, so they've got their selection spot on.

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posted Jul 15, 2009

Great sprint today. Actually found myself out of my chair screaming at the tv.

The first sprint where it looked as though it might not work out for him.

Brilliant stuff!

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posted Jul 15, 2009

MazUnitedFC - the green jersey is awared to the best sprinter in the tour. You get a certain number of points for winning a flat stage and there are several points along the stage (on the flat) where more points can be got. Add up all the points over the whole tour and the winner gets the green jersey.

Regarding Cavendish, it's a shame there are utter fools out there who try to berate his achievements. The man won 4 stages in last years tour before being forced to pull out for the Olympics (which isn't as important by a mile despite what the British press reckon) and this year he's on 4 and counting. That is some feat believe me. It's not very often you get a single rider winning that many stages in each tour. It's funny how quickly complacency sets in. Cavendish is a British sporting hero.

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posted Jul 15, 2009

Just looked at "L'Equipe" via Google's translator :

"Hushovd loses rubs and Green

In the shadow of train riders Columbia perfectly aligned to place them in an ideal position to bomb the Isle of Man, two men then plot the movement of reaction."

Strong stuff !

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posted Jul 15, 2009

sorry, if cavendish has won so many stages why isn't he in the leading group for the yellow jersey?

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posted Jul 15, 2009

Rockyfive is very wrong in summing this up to none cycling fans. There three main competitions (plus best young rider) in the tour. One is yellow for overall race leader. This person is usually a top notch all rounder, can climb, can time trial and has a decent team to help on their weaker areas.

Then there are pure hill climbers who compete for the polka dot jersey but lack skills elsewhere usually.

The green is the points jersey usually won by a sprinter and points are given for each stage win and top positions and for intermediate sprints. A none sprinter in theory could win this but because on the flat stages the sprinters usually win it is known as a sprinters jersey.

These are almost a parallel to he overall win as those sprinters spend the three weeks dragging themselves over mountains their muscle build isn't really made for to win the flat stages at a huge burst of power after 200km of riding. Many people in europ certainly love the sprinters side of the tour and for that Rockyfive is really taking away from a great talent we have in Cav.

You would have never seen a robbie mcwen, tom boonen, mario cipollini winning a grand tour but they are loved all over europe for the excitement given.

The fact the press aren't bigging up cav as much as they should (given the exposure Hoy got) is wrong really. At least in europe his achievements are rightly lauded as outstanding and he really is the talk of the cycling world.

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posted Jul 15, 2009

Robbie - I and several others have explained it on the first page of this thread.

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posted Jul 15, 2009

I think Edvald is suffering a little from the fact Columbia have so much strength and therefore didn't make the team. As tgsgirl says there's plenty of other rides where he can mature with Columbia and learn his stuff. I believe Cav is a big fan of his as am I. I'd like to of seen his performance in the opening ITT

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posted Jul 15, 2009

robbiegb. No need to be sorry. View all comments and read from the start of this thread as it's already been excellently explained.

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posted Jul 15, 2009

thanks for the reply. I think ,"its only a game," and ,"tsgirl," explain it best.
Cavendish- useless on mountain, great on the flat- gotya..

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posted Jul 15, 2009

also, my complements to,"test2."

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posted Jul 15, 2009

Armstrong came 54th today and still got the same time as Cav...God, I tell you the Tour de France is weird, one of a kind!

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posted Jul 15, 2009

What does Cav have to do to get a knighthood?
As for his team, what odds on his Columbia team winning the Sports Personality Team gong?
(Zilch, even if it was a British team

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posted Jul 15, 2009

"Armstrong came 54th today and still got the same time as Cav...God, I tell you the Tour de France is weird, one of a kind!"

One of many. Spain and Italy have grand tours (Vuelta and Giro d'Italia). There are loads of others Down Under, Switzerland, Lombardy etc etc The rules are the same for just about every stage race in the world.

They all get the same time to prevent a colossal pile up of people trying to gain fractions of seconds in bunch finishes. IT makes so more sense THan noT (BTW some keys noT working HenCe THE bizarre use of CapiTals).

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posted Jul 15, 2009

They only take the time difference in when there is a 2 second gap between riders I believe, like someone above said, having too many people going nuts for the odd 10th of a second could cause serious damage in the sport. Sprinters are trained to bunch up and do it, all-rounders/climbers aren't and you'd find big accidents more often.

I don't see how someone couldn't like Cav the cyclist, he's made it obvious that dispite the fact he won't win or be anywhere near the front, he wanted to finish the tour this year...if you had that rant about a certain Cipollini then yeah, I'd be fine with it, since he practically refused to do mountains.

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posted Jul 15, 2009

comment by therewesaidit (U5702043)
posted 3 Minutes Ago

"Armstrong came 54th today and still got the same time as Cav...God, I tell you the Tour de France is weird, one of a kind!"

One of many. Spain and Italy have grand tours (Vuelta and Giro d'Italia). There are loads of others Down Under, Switzerland, Lombardy etc etc The rules are the same for just about every stage race in the world.

They all get the same time to prevent a colossal pile up of people trying to gain fractions of seconds in bunch finishes. IT makes so more sense THan noT (BTW some keys noT working HenCe THE bizarre use of CapiTals).
--------------------------------------------
Yeah I know the reason for it but it still seems a bit excessive. Now I haven't seen the finish today but I'd guess Cav and Columbia with a couple of others had made their break so there was clear daylight between them and the main peloton - surely they could find a differetial in time there?

BTW, my keboard is a nightmare too - it's wireless and is getting impossible!

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posted Jul 15, 2009

As it has been brought up here - what would happen, unlikely as it is, if the grupetto just got it badly, badly wrong, miscalculated or whatever and 90 or so of them came in a few seconds outside the limit?

Likewise in each of the first few stages a couple of riders came in 15+ mins down on the stage winner who only took 4 hours or so. That's a pretty hefty percentage so can riders be eliminated that early & why weren't they?

Is the elimination % based on the stage standing or the GC standing in relation to the leader?

I didn't think Napolitano was that worse than other yet he got nobbled.

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posted Jul 15, 2009

Nice to see someone from Manx begin to emulate fellow Celt Sean Kelly who dominated the Tour for years in the green jersey.

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posted Jul 15, 2009

Cav is on another level to anyone else around now but the other teams don't help themselves - they do so much work at the front around the 20-10k mark for little or no purpose, especially when Columbia are doing it all anyway.

It's clear Farrar, Duque, Ciolek etc, even Boonen aren't anywhere near Cav's level - or arguably one or two others.

They'd be better served putting someone in a breakaway or having riders go off with 15K or 5K to go, Vino was great at whipping away a few K's out, Cancellara could try it.

I'm failing to see the point in Millar, Zabriskie, Ten-Dam, Flecha working themselves into exhaustion, all to leave one sprinter on his own 2K out, against somebody he'll never beat - even on a hilly finish.

There were plenty of times McEwen, when he had passed his pomp, didn't have a team mate in sight but still snuck through to take a stage. I'd have loved to see him of 5 years ago against Cav now - probably be 3-3 over 6 stages.

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posted Jul 15, 2009

basically if a lot of people are outside the time limit, the Comissaires can, and usually will, decide to reinstate everyone, not too sure exactly how it works but that's the gist of it.

Pretty certain it happened a few years back, a really fast mountain stage, and quite a few ridesr got caught out, but the powers that be decided not to eliminate them..

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posted Jul 15, 2009

On a road stage the cut-off is usually 10% (ish?) So if the leader takes 4 hours, you've still got 24 minutes.

It's the percentage of the winner of that particular stage.

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posted Jul 15, 2009

>As it has been brought up here - what would happen, unlikely as it is, if the grupetto just got it badly, badly wrong, miscalculated or whatever and 90 or so of them came in a few seconds outside the limit?<

They'd be allowed to continue by mercy of the race jury (not that unlikely, it has happened before).

>Is the elimination % based on the stage standing or the GC standing in relation to the leader?<

Stage winner.

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posted Jul 16, 2009

As it has been brought up here - what would happen, unlikely as it is, if the grupetto just got it badly, badly wrong, miscalculated or whatever and 90 or so of them came in a few seconds outside the limit?

Likewise in each of the first few stages a couple of riders came in 15+ mins down on the stage winner who only took 4 hours or so. That's a pretty hefty percentage so can riders be eliminated that early & why weren't they?

Is the elimination % based on the stage standing or the GC standing in relation to the leader?
___________________

As pointed out, it's a time % based on the stage winner's average speed for the stage, but it varies according to the type of stage.

There are 6 types of stage: 4 kinds of in-line stages, and then ITTs and TTTs.

Applicable percentages are set out in 6 coefficient tables - 4 for in-line stages and 1 for either type of TT.

In line tables go from "no particular difficulty" to "short, extremely difficult stages."

As an example, the coefficient for a type 1 stage raced at an avg speed of 38km/h is 6%, while for a type 4 stage raced at the same speed it's 18%.

Apart from this, the race judges have a series of prerrogatives to change the % if, for example, there are unforeseen events during the stage, particularly harsh weather conditions or an very serious accident.

When more than 20% of the riders finish outside the established time limit, the judges can readjust the percentage, allowing all or some of the riders to re-qualify.

Criteria for this include where an accident happened (if very early in the stage I presume they'll allow more time), the avg speed of the stage or, rather ambiguously, the "energy" the delayed riders put into their effort (i.e. if they can't be bothered then they won't be allowed back in).

The delay allowed for time-trials is 25%, the only difference being that for the TTT it's the finishing speed/time of winning team's 5th rider to cross the line.

Full details available in French are contained in Article 22 (pages 12-14) of the Tour de France rulebook:

[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

Even if you don't speak French, the tables are easily understandable.

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posted Jul 16, 2009

Following the example you quoted, if a 160km type 1 ("easy") stage takes the winner 4 hours (240 minutes) to complete, the average speed would be 40km/h and the applicable % is 7%.

Hence the time limit allowed (7% over 240 minutes) would be close to 17 minutes.

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posted Jul 16, 2009

Also congratulations to Cavendish - I hope he makes it over the mountains.
Would love to see him win in Paris.

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