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Haskall, Palmer and Flutey

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posted Feb 17, 2009

Good news for Brive, bad news for English rugby.

One of the reasons why Irish clubs have consistently done well in the Heineken Cup and why Ireland are doing well in this year's Six Nations is that most of our players are contracted to Connacht, Leinster, Munster and Ulster.

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posted Feb 17, 2009

Ditto Wales Dazzler , this could start a worrying trend for English rugby ,Cippriani next i reckon.

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posted Feb 17, 2009

thankfully ciprianis signed a one year deal

my only worry is that this wil encourage the rest of the out of contract players to leave!

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posted Feb 17, 2009

I'm most disapointed that haskell has gone. Shaw's getting on abit and Flutey is abit of a journeyman. My guess is none of the english could afford his wasps wages never mind what Stade will be offering him. Some tough competition for places on that Stade back row next season.

Do you think that Taylor will be returning to Scotland now that Haskell and Shaw is going there?

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posted Feb 17, 2009

When I said Shaw I obviously meant Palmer!!!!! <doh>

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posted Feb 17, 2009

I have mentioned this before on several similar threads England are on the edge of an abyss the RFU either start to implement through financial incentives to the GP clubs to keep a cap on non english players and allow as the U20 team showed is a wealth of talent coming through or you will have very good GP teams in Europe and a declining pool of Englished based players playing in England which as the only 2 players in the welsh team are finding limits the time the coaches want with them and in turn puts pressure on them to return to Wales (Peel and Cooper back to Welsh regions soon probably) Welsh club rugby went the way the GP league is going now and it was disastrous, regions are on the whole producing the talent, the Welsh squad is doing well and I think as a result the welsh players in the GP if they want to play for Wales in the future will be looking for contracts in the regions which will negate the need for Non welsh players apart from those who the regions think will make a marked and distinct improvement as opposed the the still quite a few journeymen. History is there for england to look at the end product for change is also their we await with baited breath as to what the english rfu wil do

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posted Feb 17, 2009

I am worried about this too. This doesn't just affect the ENglish it affects everyone.

In the SRU we have salary caps and I think most Magners clubs have the same. It means that everyone is very competitiv which is great for the game. If the English take their salary caps away then it will hurt the game and every club in it. We cannot afford to go the way of football. THe French don't have salary caps and they only managed to get 1 club in the EU quarterfinals.

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posted Feb 17, 2009

God, Satde are going to have a pretty neat pack now, Parrise, Bergamasco and Haskall on the same back row...not bad if you ask me.

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posted Feb 17, 2009

Big loss for England and Wasps...

Haskell for Wasps is not a loss he moved for money always was going to, i feel his wages can go to bringing in another decent back to help the younger players, for England hes going to struggle personally because there are other players to play there that can train for the two weeks.

Flutey is disapointing, lets just hope its not because Goode is there and in long term plans for Johnson, if so god help England.

Palmer probably moved for money but not a huge loss we have one players who could take his England place anyway so only his loss :) although i do think Shaw is going to Italy soon..

Overall these players arent a massive loss but it will have such an influence on other players to leave for France.

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posted Feb 17, 2009

Did an article on this yesterday, saying that they had gone - HughT99 where is my apology when you said my whole article was wrong!

Ibanez will shortly announce he is retiring from playing rugby due to an injury - so we have effectively now lost 4 key starting players. With Dallgio and Waters leaving last year that is half a team in two seasons.

We are going to miss Flutey tremendously, and unless there are other players that do not have contracts at their own clubs then we are not going to be able to afford replacements - we will either have to trust the young players (Simpson and Ellis are both incredible) or sadly invest in foreign players...

Why cant an Abramovich come and invest in the club!

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posted Feb 17, 2009

Abramovich will just sake all the coaching staff for not winning the heineken cup....

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posted Feb 17, 2009

Will this affect Flutey's eligibility for England and potentially for the Lions, given he was given it on the grounds of residence and now he's an international, he's decided to go to France for a few extra euros. Unlike Dayglo, he doesn't seem like the type of person I want in the Lions squad.

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posted Feb 17, 2009

I can see all the negative points here, however there a silver lining to this undoubtably grey cloud......I hope that the young academy players will get to play more premiership rugby and therefore increase their heads up and decision making ability.

Too few of our youngsters are being outsted by foriegn internationals here for a payday and so this could....be short term pain for long term gain.

just an opinion :)

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posted Feb 17, 2009

Flutey probably wont make the lions squad anyway there are much better centres/fly halfs out there than him look at Roberts, Henson, Fitzgerald, Darcy or maybe even Evans, they will just come in if Flutey wasnt able and maybe even if he was..

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posted Feb 17, 2009

Good news this. They will only become better players and more rounded individuals. All English backs should have a spell in France to learn what creative three quarter play is all about - how to use space, exploit overlaps and run on to the ball at pace with good angles. They would learn much more than they will in international preparation with Johnson and co.

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posted Feb 17, 2009

Fredstr - I agree (i'd probably have Henson if fit), but Dayglo had Flutey not only in the squad but in his starting 15! But then he also had tim payne at prop so i suspect it was just a wasps marketing ploy.

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posted Feb 17, 2009

Whilst i can understand the growing concern at english union clubs as a fan of league i have no sympathy as you are now experiencing what it's like for someone to come along with more money who doesn't have the restrictions you have and poaching your best players.

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posted Feb 17, 2009

do stade francais really need another world class back row forward? they already have simon taylor, sergio parisse, juan leguizamon, mauro bergamasco and rabadan. There you see they have far too much money when they own the best forwards of Italy, Scotland, Argentina and England. You'll get to a stage where one 2 of those players won't even make the bench

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posted Feb 17, 2009

english rugby needs to remove price cap and compete with the french clubs financially, admittedly this will be difficult as the french clubs attract far greater crowds.

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posted Feb 17, 2009

"Good news this. They will only become better players and more rounded individuals. All English backs should have a spell in France to learn what creative three quarter play is all about - how to use space, exploit overlaps and run on to the ball at pace with good angles. They would learn much more than they will in international preparation with Johnson and co."

Obviously you've never watched french club rugby, as the Top 14 is incredibly forward dominated, with incredibly physical backs like Jauzion who have little or no flair.

Long gone are the days of french running rugby.

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posted Feb 17, 2009

I would rather the French spent money on big foreign names than us English. Im actaully quite relieved we cant compete. I only see this having a bad effect on the French, as for us its bound to mean more academy players coming through.

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posted Feb 17, 2009

For me this says a lot about Haskell and his attitude towards playing for England.

I epxect it more of older players like Flutey and Palmer but for Haskell he is shipping out at a time when he should be cementing his place in the England team.

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posted Feb 17, 2009

It's a case of the bigger French fish, eating the English fish. And I'm not sure the RFU have an agreement with French clubs to release "English players"? if not then seems the RFU might need to lobby for all nations solution to this!?


It's also happening to Cricket and one day will happen to Football!

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posted Feb 17, 2009

"Whilst i can understand the growing concern at english union clubs as a fan of league i have no sympathy as you are now experiencing what it's like for someone to come along with more money who doesn't have the restrictions you have and poaching your best players."

absoloute genuine real life rofl!!

The top flight union clubs have the money, and can generate the money, it's just we have aself imposed salary cap that the french don't.

And how many Rugby league player shave been poached in comparison to union players being poached by league over the years?

League is a dying sport the sooner it realises that and gets it's own house in order instead of moanign about everyone elses the better it will be.

I mean how can you have aworld cup when there are only two professional leagues world wide? Rofl!

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posted Feb 17, 2009

"For me this says a lot about Haskell and his attitude towards playing for England.

I epxect it more of older players like Flutey and Palmer but for Haskell he is shipping out at a time when he should be cementing his place in the England team."

Well Johnson is obviously happy to select players from outside the GP so there is no incentive for him to stay in the GP.

I personally don't have a huge problem with this, I'm sad a s wasps supporter, but i do understand that these opportunities are few and far between and the chance to experience playing in different countries under different coaches and to earn a good salary whilst doing so is too good to be missed.

I honestly think fair enough, just suck it up and move on.

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posted Feb 17, 2009

StandFreeFM - What other explanation is there for putting Payne in the lions?? that would be the worst desision in human history...

Its not just about the salary cap even without that Wasps would not have been able to keep Haskell he just wants lots of Money and Wasps have none of it...

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comment by jezzar (U3797474)

posted Feb 17, 2009

Its sad and very concerning especially for fans of the English teams. At the same time thought this situation did not harm the French football team whose players developed by a superb youth system also for economic reasons went to Italian, Spanish and English teams. You could argue that it actually made them better players.
As far as I am concerned as long as the RFU and clubs develop a decent youth system then things should be okay

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comment by Tucklt (U9506946)

posted Feb 17, 2009

I don't understand this. The problem is France don't have salary caps? Why don't we remove our salary caps? It's not as though the football premiership suffers from players leaving.

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comment by J5 (U2093664)

posted Feb 17, 2009

Surely they wouldnt have made this move without Johnsons approval that it wouldnt affect their international futures? Which is massively worrying!!
The only hope is that they have it in the new club contracts to be released as per the EPS contract!

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comment by chris (U6629971)

posted Feb 17, 2009

Its decision time.

Do we now not select these players to create a siege mentality team of local players or do we pick on merit regardless of where the players play?

Doesn't do Argentina much harm.

My vote? Local players who will always give 100%.

Why? Because I do not believe the England coaches would be able to see beyond the dis-loyalty.

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posted Feb 17, 2009

Am not worried, our youngsters don't get enough GP game time anyway; Eddie Jones commented on this as a fundamental weakness in the GP and internationally for England. About time Wasps bloodied more youngsters: we seems to have the oldest inexperienced international side of any country!!! So they might not perform as they have done in previous seasons! Surely now is the time for people like Dayglo and McGeechan with the help of players like Lewsey, Betsen, Simon Shaw and Vickery to pass on their experiences to develop the next generation and play with a style of rugby that compliments the ELVs rather than hinders. Maybe if trophies(Heineken Cup) were won then more money would be injected...Let's hope Leicester Tigers find a similar style too...<whistle>. As far as I am concerned, the game has to move forward. London Irish, Bath are the teams that are beginning to find a style of play worthy of countering the Southern Hemisphere dominance...

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posted Feb 17, 2009

No criticism of Haskell - congratulations on getting himself a big pay-rise.

I wish him all the best...

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posted Feb 17, 2009

In the football premiership its the English teams that have the money thats why they dont leave, France football clubs have little money so very few of there players are based there.. with Rugby it works the other way, this isnt about the salary cap, if the salary cap goes all the Wasp players would be gone.. we cant afford to pay greedy Haskell the football like salary he wants...

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posted Feb 17, 2009

Meh, who needs Flutey, Haskell and Palmer anyway? Ok so I am a bit miffed about Flutey going...
Still the boss got all huffy and said take it or leave it and they chose to leave it. Can't blame them really. I'd hate to see the situation we have in Football where it's all about the bling and how many Bentleys you own but a bit of tweaking to keep the English talent in England might be worth thinking about?

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posted Feb 17, 2009

Rhinomark,

While I wouldn't put it in the same words as GoodNumber10 (what he hell is rofl anyway?), he does have a point. I'm pretty sure the Welsh were hid hardest, especially during the 80s/90s, but league had best part of a century of attracting union players by the fact that they could get paid more (or at all) by playing league.

Now Noble's come out and said that league should be looking to buy up more high-profile union players, although I'm not sure what he's aiming for there to be honest.

Swings and roundabouts chap, swings and roundabouts

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posted Feb 17, 2009

If you were offered a lot more money to do the same job for another company you'd take it right? Fair play to the lads, sporting careers are very short and they are entitled to make as much money as they like in this time. It may actually do them some good as well and introduce a little gallic flair into our international team rather than the thump and bump style of play we are so used to.

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posted Feb 17, 2009

For me this says a lot about Haskell and his attitude towards playing for England.

I epxect it more of older players like Flutey and Palmer but for Haskell he is shipping out at a time when he should be cementing his place in the England team.

-----------------------------------------------
Shipping out?
If the money isn't here then why not. Selecting players on the basis of whether they ply their trade in the country they wish to play for is ludicrous.
As for removing the salary cap, this is a ridiculous idea. Look at the mess football clubs find themselves in because they have to pay the top players huge salaries to stay.
If we sent more of our players to play in France, perhaps we could catch onto how to play with ball in hand <whistle>

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posted Feb 17, 2009

Providing we get promoted, this is great news for Leeds!!!!
We've got an abundance of young talent (Myall, Clark, Jacobs, Freer etc.) and all the greedy so and so's hopping over the channel levels the playing field a bit next season!

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posted Feb 17, 2009

Wasps statement: 'There is a wider concern that the development of English rugby players will only be hampered as they move away from the Premiership'

What?! If the Premiership was filling up with French players then I'd see their point. French teams filling with English players offers nothing but good news. Fewer chances for French players; learning curve for English players over there; more chance of youngsters breaking into English sides.

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posted Feb 17, 2009

And it gets worse for Wasps, Rafael Ibanez has annouced his retirement from the game because of an injury.

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posted Feb 17, 2009

We're just getting our come uppance after years of pinching SH, celtic and RL talent. Now we are not the biggest fish in the pond there is outrage. Deal with it, it'll change in the future, hasn't done the celts or SH any harm and if we stick to a salary cap might make the game more sustainable as opposed to chasing the French with money we patently don't have.

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comment by BasilF (U1739048)

posted Feb 17, 2009

I think only 2 GP clubs made a profit last season - so removing the salary cap would not be a good idea.

Flutey is the big loss, and I don't know who we have coming through to take his place.

With Ellis we have cover for Haskell, and I think we have Palmer covered. Obviously I would have preferred Haskell to stay, but hey-ho that's life.

Cips has obviously given Wasps another year to show that they can be competitive; or may be for helping him get through his injury.

Hopefully we can bring in a decent player to cover for Flutey with 3 of them going. Nonu anyone?

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posted Feb 17, 2009

Hopefully these players, and the others that choose to go to France will widen their experiences, learn more about the game, and hopefully, take on a more expansive attitude to the game that will move the standard of English National Rugby upwards.
French rugby to my knowledge is harder, faster and loaded with more skill than the English game. Certainly the regular supply of French backs and flankers with flair, pace and skill indicate something good is going on in French Rugby.

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posted Feb 17, 2009

French footballers come over here to ply their trade, why not send english rugby players over there to ply theirs. Playing in a strong foreign country will only enhance them as players.

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comment by Oliver (U4607573)

posted Feb 17, 2009

<<I don't understand this. The problem is France don't have salary caps? Why don't we remove our salary caps? It's not as though the football premiership suffers from players leaving.>>

No, it suffers from one of the same three rich clubs winning the league every year for the last 13 years.

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posted Feb 17, 2009

This is a worrying trend, although it could be a great option for some of the England players in the long run - playing more open paced, free flowing rugby will really enhance each player and if Haskell could play an even more expansive style he could become one of the best back row forwards in world rugby.

It does suck for Wasps though - they are big losses, although I do hear that we have got a lot of fantastic youth players coming through once again. Ellis can step up and I think he could actually be better than Haskell.

We've got Cipriani on another year contract and if we can keep him, and build a team around Rees, Waldouck, Ellis, Simpson etc then we've still got a good team.

Just want to see who we will be signing to replace them.

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posted Feb 17, 2009

The_third_Ronaldo

Sadly this isn't the way it will work.

Even before this 'exodus', most people were aware that there are too many foreign players in our GP clubs. If spaces are created by our top players they are more likely to be filled by SH or PI players than English youngsters.

Something really does need to be done.

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posted Feb 17, 2009

Why the fuss? Very few of us wouldn't change jobs if a big pay was offered, family and security first especially as Martin Johnson has made it quite clear that he has no intentions of giving our younger players much of a chance anyway. It may well help Haskell in the end and the only harm I can see is to the French national side as less of their plaers end up playing regular first tea rugby.

Wasps must be worrying though, unless they have some ral talent coming through the ranks but I wouldn't be surprised to see a change of coaches and management there too

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posted Feb 17, 2009

Has anyone considered the long term damage the French could do to the development of French youngsters by importing all these foriegners.

Flutey, Haskell and Palmer could well knock three french lads down the pecking order, reducing their chances to gain the experience to progress further.

It may well look great for now but every time a foriegner arrives there's one less starting berch for a local.
In the longterm they may end up damaging the national side considerably.

Furthermore it may well force the GP sides to look more towards the academies (I'm a Sale fan and we are now pushing several talented young English forwards into the 1st team)

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posted Feb 17, 2009

Who in their right mind wants to remove the salary cap? Leicester are the only team that makes a profit as is. All other clubs rely on sugar daddies or very generous members. 1 or 2 are even close to going under if reports are correct.

Instead of lookin g at removing ours, how about asking the French to impose one?

Or, more likely, how about putting home grown rules in place for European competitions? i.e. 8 (or more) players in your squad have to be trained in your nation via the Academy of a club (i.e. could be a Wasps player but came through say Saracens Academy), whilst 4 (or more) have to come through your own Academy/Colts system.

This was implemeted (in some format) in the Champions League this season so differs from other rules UEFA is trying to implement.

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