posted Dec 9, 2008

old one eye - you're entitled to your opinion of course. And the cyclical one is a long held view.
And of course it has some truth because teams' fortunes oscillate.
But to turn that into a fatalistic attitude that says we won't really try to change anything because change will come cyclically anyway is getting the underlying philosophy muddled up.
There is no divine order the puts one team ahead for a while and then another no matter what anyone does.
The reason the All Blacks are best most of the time is because of the work, initiative, resources, and downright commitment they put in.
There are no excuses for poor team selection, lack of fitness and conditioning, and naive tactics in this day and age, especially where England are concerned.
England can buy the best in the world, and have the richest league in the world, more or less.
If something is not working, they can fix it without having to worry about money, resources or players.
Many countries don't have that.
But to suggest this five year barren spell is somehow just one of those things is nonsense.

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posted Dec 9, 2008

old one eye - not sure why you're on the defensive, unless you are passive aggressive and not happy unless you're opposing someone. Maybe, as is the English character, you're only comfortable when you're responding to what you consider to be a confrontation.
And if it isn't, you wind people up until it is.
That way you can act like the victim and justify your own aggression and confrontational attitude.

This post started out as a reasonable questionnaire of England's dire performances in the autumn series.
Most people feel let down by England, the management, the players, if they are real fans anyway.
Many people, including the media, experts, pundits, were talking about England winning two or three Tests this Autumn and anything less would be unacceptable.
Now the goalposts are moved and all the apologists and excuses come out, and everyone is hoping things will be "cyclical" and get better again on their own.
Anything, but change.
Its denial, and a lack of moral gumption.
We all thought Johnson was going to bring that, and be a straight arrow, but instead he's fudging the issue the same Andrew has been for years now. Its disappointing if you are a real rugby fan frankly.
England are never going to improve going on the way they are. And I take no pleasure in saying that. And I will take no pleasure in saying I told you so, either after this Six Nations, or after the 2011 World Cup if nothing changes.
And I'm not talking about appointing a new manager as a face-saving exercise, but getting in someone who really knows how to get the team playing properly, who has control of the infrastructure around the team, and who can motivate players rather than see the best young prospects look lost and bewildered as soon as they put on an England shirt. We've heard next to nothing about Monye or Sackey but they were both poor to average - as the best in England supposedly.
And its all very well bigging up Armitage, but he wasn't that good. Fourie pushed him off not once but twice for his late try.

Of course, it could all be some Machiavellian plot to have Shaun Edwards prepare himself for the role of senior England coach with Wales and then take on England in a rush of adrenaline up to 2011.
When you look at the way Loffreda was handled and then Meyer subsequently appointed I wouldn't be surprised by anything frankly.

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posted Dec 9, 2008

I didn't say we should just wait it out - England should - and are - trying to make the necessary changes. It's you arguments that appear to be the only things that oscilate around here. Firts you want more change - then you want less - next you want less overseas involvement then you want more - after that there are too few English players at Leicester then you want more Leicester payers in the England team!

You're right - there is no excuse for bad selection and tactics etc - but you also can't change 5 years of bad selection and bad tactics overnight!
One thing that you can guarantee is that more revolution now WON'T produce the results you seem to crave.

But again - you've cherry picked the bit of the argument tha suits you - what about the other points made in this thread - the inconvenient truths that give the lie to your ravings!

Question for you - have you ever taken any pleasure in a defeat? Personally I can't abide the so called sports fans who only watch in expectation of victory and for whom defeat offers only misery.

If you hate watching England play so much - don't - go to the theatre - read a book. Sport isn't for you!

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posted Dec 9, 2008

''This post started out as a reasonable questionnaire of England's dire performances in the autumn series''.

Excuse me Mikeyphil. It started as a post discussing Leicester's improved performance against Perpignan. You are the one who has changed it to something else via your usual tactic of laying the blame for most of England's ills at the door of Leicester Tigers. ( admitedly I amongst others have helped you by giving counter arguments which merely allow you to go on and on and on with the same old inaccurate rubbish ).As someone else suggested, take yourself off to other boards please where inevitably you will find in the dark corners a few like minded people who will pat you on the back and tell you how right you are.

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posted Dec 9, 2008

anyway ...back to the post.
Great news for England about Moody , they have really missed him as have we.

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posted Dec 9, 2008

"Great news for England about Moody , they have really missed him as have we."

Moody is a very good player but England's forwards problems stem from both a lack of experience on the flanks and a lack of talent in the experienced locks. Well that and picking Vickery and Payne as the props. Very glad to see Moody back in action the game is a brighter place with fearless eccentrics like him in it.

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posted Dec 9, 2008

Tigers against Perpignan i thought looked bright and aggresive which is always a good thing. Shame about slipping concentration to let Perpignan back into the game, but well held together all in all. Defense still needs to be looked at and improved. Should be a very good encounter next week for the return, especially with dan carter, be interesting to see just what effect if any he has. Thought Flood was outstanding, and despite his perhaps not so good performance against new zealand, should still be england's 10 for the six nations i think. Moody getting back to form is excellent, adds a whole new dynamism to the team, and with croft's pace and crane's power could be an extremely dangerous combination in the back row for tigers.

Considering England, selection over the recent tests was appalling frankly. England do need a balanced side to bring forward, a mix of old and young. Cipriani shouldnt have played at all, should have spent time at wasps recovering further and proving his form. Care best sh in country still at the moment despite poor showing and needs time to improve and get used to international rugby.

Sam, agree about Vickery and Payne but Sheridan and Stevens were both poor through the series, though stevens was arguably the best out of them. problem is, who else can you pick?

Locks that we have are generally very very poor and cannot stand up to international rugby. With the exception of Kennedy who should have been given more game time, the rest, borthwick, shaw, palmer, and ben kay when he was called up are useless and dont deserve it. This england side generally, as you say lacks alot of experience and leadership. This isnt going to change soon though as there is no-one to bring through, so this group of young players needs to be given time and the chance to adapt and prove themselves. Would personally love to see shane geraghty involved.

Biggest problem i see at the moment is in choice of centres. Flutey doesnt have what it takes, and noon is blatantly only there because he has 37 international caps. Flood and tait at centre perhaps with geraghty at fly, or why not get danny hipkiss involved seeing as he's been on form for ages now

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posted Dec 10, 2008

For Leiceter like England, problems with ther 12 & 13 channel. Mauger is good but the tigers are still not clicking. Am glad that Flood came down from Newcastle as his game has been raised since leaving the falcons

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posted Dec 10, 2008

We all know that mikey dislikes england and leicester!

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