posted Dec 3, 2008

The manager is not the problem, neither are the coaches. It is the players- they are young and at this moment in time not good enough for top test rugby....yet. Give them time, the media are overreacting beyond belief, a classic english trait . I know 3 losses is bad, but england are doing now what should have happened in 2004 ie rebuilding, so let's give them some time ! Let's also remember that the Tri Nations sides are the best in the world, you don't just beat these sides easily ever, even during the glory days when england won 12 successive times against the big 3- most of the games were close and very hard-fought. My point is ....you only beat the best by playing the best regularly. I have to admire Wales, they are seeking out tougher tests and come 2011, with a victory or two over SA and NZ leading into the RWC they will be contenders and confidence will be high. Wales I feel have turned the corner in that beating england and the 6 nations are no longer the priority for them- the Tri Nations teams are! Gatland and co have got it spot on. Wales are on the way to the top if they can keep going.............

add comment | complain about this comment

posted Dec 3, 2008

spoons99 - come on own up Stuart Barnes, I know its you, you can't fool me!

add comment | complain about this comment

posted Dec 3, 2008

There's many valid opinions raised here, but I do feel a few more thoughts could be added.....

First, Johnson. He is manager not coach, and was brought in I suspect to build a team similar to the one Woodward built. He's been in charge officially now for 4 games, three against the undisputed top 3 in the world. Losing those three was not really a surprise surely folks? Now.... what is important is the way Johnson reacts. He will have a better idea of personnel, both on and off the field, and in all areas individuals must now step up to the plate.

Three areas to me are key: decision making, leadership and fitness.

Decision making. England did well in the amount of ball they possessed in the autumn internationals, but little was done with it. Straighter lines, more direction with passing, more aggressive tackling. You can work on these endlessly on a training pitch, but we need to find which players can make those vital split second decisions in the last minute of a World Cup Final (I refer not to the drop goal, but to MJ's awareness that Dawson was trapped and thus deciding to carry the ball into one more contact to free his scrum half). In 2003 preparation, England even went as far as discarding any potential "energy sappers". I suspect the current team has let some back in.

Leadership. Apologies to Steve Borthwick, given he's played for England and I never will, but he does not inspire me at international level. Neither does Vickery I'm afraid. Look at great recent captains: Richie McCaw, the way he comes across on the field and off. George Gregan. John Smit. And then look at others in these teams. These teams are filled with captaincy material. As for England? Well, some future captains perhaps, but I see none who would secure the job right now. Retirement and injury have deprived the team of five or more international captains. And you only have to look at the difference in the way the referee spoke to Borthwick and McCaw on saturday to see how important a strong leader can be.

Fitness. When you look at the Tri-Nations teams, they emanate power, speed, agility. Almost to a player. England has players who can tackle, but can't skip one in return, or who can run but are knocked backwards when hit. We need the fitness coaching to go into overtime, as Test rugby is in a league of its own when it comes down to fitness. The last minute try conceded against SA said it all. A "tired" SA team, after putting in double the number of tackles England made, still had the muscle power and mental aggression to cut through our team like butter. And increased fitness means stronger running and harder tackles - look at Lewsey's famous tackle on Rogers. Unfortunate for the Australian, but England were all about taking the battle to the opposition back then.

So..... Johnson now knows the size of the task before him. Like I said, judge at the end of the Six Nations, not on the back of playing three teams who are clearly years ahead. And hopefully next time we play them, that will have decreased to months, days or even seconds..... who knows, we may even win!

add comment | complain about this comment

posted Dec 3, 2008

One thing on the whole issue of management, particularly with regard to Andrew.
The best managers tend to be as good as managing the people above them, as those below, and Andrew is clearly not of that kind.
He comes across as nothing more than a goffer for the RFU grandees - Thomas, Baron and the executive committee.
Instead of carving out a place for himself as a significant player in the whole England rugby infrastructure he has become all things to all men, agreeing with everybody depending on what suits him politically at the time.
Accountable for nothing that goes wrong, and responsible for everything that goes right.
He was the main man on the summer tour to New Zealand and look what happened there.
He sacked both Robinson and Ashton, and by all accounts passed over Shaun Edwards when he was available.
He may have had the repuatation as Mr Squeaky clean as a player, but what exactly has he done so far for the England rugby team?
Its been a catalogue of failure, including the 2007 World Cup in my view.
And brokering a deal with the clubs for the latest elite player agreement counts for nothing if its the clubs who benefit most. He is meant to be for England Rugby, not Premier Rugby.
I suspect the clubs are the real power brokers in all this, and they are the reason for England's limited form.
If the players aren't geared up for international rugby, then nothing else is going to work really.
Andrew has sold out his country!!

add comment | complain about this comment

posted Dec 3, 2008

I dont think its realistic your aims in article. I wont write big comment as it wont be read if too big - but really Edwards and Meehan who says they want to be international coaches. How are we to assess who is an international standard player also - who decides - we cant know without trying them

add comment | complain about this comment

posted Dec 3, 2008

Check out Eddie Jones' comments in the Khaleej Times (see sidebar from the article where Andrew begs for patience.

He stresses the need for match fitness on top of gym fitness; something anyone who has played any contact sport at any level knows about.

"If I was Rob Andrew the first thing I would be doing would be to invest in a second tier competition so that all your best young players have regular rugby. Young players can lift and run as fast as you want - but they have to play games."

He also describes the minimum number of cumulative caps on a team to be successful at Test Level. I wonder if he is bucking for the Head Coach job wit MJ as manager?

add comment | complain about this comment

posted Dec 3, 2008

I still can't understand why we should be so accepting of a need for a period of rebuilding and planning for 2011 and expecting to lose virtually every game when the big three nations manage to rebuild almost overnight in comparison. Why are we in this "win a world cup, lose a lot for a long time and then hope to win again several years later" mentality.
We should be constantly blending on new players with existing senior players and thus evolving continually rather than a crash, pick-up build and crash pattern.
Just like the economy really isn't it??!!
Come on England, get it together soon, not in 3 years!!!!

add comment | complain about this comment

posted Dec 4, 2008

I think the role Rob Andrew has is quite complex, he was brought in mainly to oversee the release of player from clubs to country and his role has grown.

The selection of Andy Robinson and Brian Ashton were 'quick fix' measures, just as the FA did with Steve Mclaren. In order to have stability you need a foundation. Martin Johnson is the right man for the 'Management' of the England team, I think the coaches need a review, keep Brian Smith as he is new, however, Graham Rountree, John Wells etc. have been involved for a while and have not improved the areas of their expertise.

We do need to be fitter and reduce the foreign players in the premiership (esp front row).

We cannot blame the ELV's as it's the same for everyone. Let Johnson do his thing, he has enough experience working under some fantastic coaches, build the core of a team and work around that.

I remember Jonny Wilkinson playing in a 76-0 loss to the Aussie in 98, 5 years later kicking them to World Cup glory with a couple of 6 Nation Championships and a Grand Slam en route to 2003.

Stick with Johnson, review the others and let's move on, the only way is UP!

add comment | complain about this comment

posted Dec 4, 2008

The Jonny Wilkinson example of going from 76-0 against Australia to World Cup winner in five years is one that is often quoted as justification for years of poor results.
If Jonny can manage it, then why not now?
The other example cited in defence of the three to five year lull in England's form is the fact that South Africa went from quarter finalists in 2003, where they were knocked out in a close game against the All Blacks, to World Cup winners in 2007.
I would suggest that neither example is relevant, or desirable, in relation to England's current state.
First, serious sporting nations (Australia in cricket, NZ in rugby, Brazil in football) never really fall that far, certainly not as far as 76-0! Or even 42-6 at home for that matter, or 36-0 in a World Cup!
Second, South Africa were never all that bad - certainly not out of touch in the way England are currently.
A gap has grown since 2003 between England and top world rugby. And its not going to close by itself.
Either the coaches and players improve their fitness, conditioning, and standard of play on the pitch,or they are never going to catch.
Obvious though it sounds, they have been talking about it for five years, and going nowhere.
I can't see any indication that things are now different under Johnson.
Lose the Six Nations and I don't think they have a leg to stand on.
Someone senior will have to go, and someone big will have to come in!

add comment | complain about this comment

posted Dec 9, 2008

Never fall that far?
Sat. 23rd Nov, 2002 - England v South Africa
England 53 v South Africa 3
Five years later - world champions!
You keep spouting this rubbish but you don't even know your facts!

add comment | complain about this comment