posted Aug 20, 2008

Come on Fraziel(U12985742).... calling Boardman 'piss poor' in the TdF is just ignorant. His job was to go and win the prologue, which he did 3 times, including posting the fastest ever ride for the event. He was also not half as bad in the mountains as people think. I'm sure you don't go to work and do everybody else's jobs as well so give Chris the credit he deserves for excelling in his role and try and understand the sport a bit better.

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posted Aug 20, 2008

paolo73, i dont think i have missed a single stage of the tour de France since 1989, and whati havemissed prior to that I have tried to find out about, so I have an exceptionally good understanding of tour racing, even if i do say so myself.I also think I have a pretty good knowledge of track cycling.

Boardman won the prologue 3 times, (and most tour afficianados will say big deal) but if memory serves me correctly he did not finish a single tour de France.

All he did was moan about how tired he was and how he could not recover after each stage.It really got on my nerves. The tour de France is all about unbelieveable levels of suffering and you dont hear the top riders bleating on like he did.They suck it up and deal with it like the hardened competitors they are.

He was great in the 1 hour but as a tour cyclist he was just not up to snuff.Britains greatest and most successful cyclist of all time,Robert Millar, achieved far more in the tour de France, never mind the rest of his career, than Boardman and got practically no recognition for it in the media.It is a travesty that he is virtually unknown to the average Brit sports fan and that Boardman, who was hugely disappointing and over hyped as a road cyclist, is so higly regarded.

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posted Aug 20, 2008

Fraziel, despite your self-confessed “exceptional understanding of tour racing” you seem to be a little too free with offensive insults that do not appear to be related to facts.

You are incorrect in stating that Chris Boardman failed to finish a tour. Any cycling fan of some experience would clearly empathise with his suffering in 1996 as he tried to come back from the tragedy of 1995. As a doped up Barjne Riis stormed to victory, Chris gave it everything to finish 39th out of 139 finishers that year. I was proud of him then and as the history of doping has unfolded, am even more proud of him now. Fraziel, you need to be more mature in your choice of language. “piss poor” could only be used by someone who has never ever been anywhere near repeated alpine climbs, at elite level pace.

For Nicole, I am similarly insulted as I am for Chris with your offensive and ill founded statements about the quality of the women’s road peloton. Before you were born, in the early 80’s, women’s road racing was of a modest nature in terms of length. As many things in life, it is not the chicken or the egg that came first, there had to be evolution. Look around elite sports at the Olympics. The UCI World rankings showed that over 400 women had won points in 2007. Women’s World Cup events turn away teams once they have entries of 160 riders. Start casting your “expert eye” around how many other Olympic events and see if they can generate fields of that size for comparable events. Jennie Longo “embarrasses” everybody, as did the 42 year old Spaniard who won gold in the Madison beating Cav. These athletes embarrass others because they are among the very finest athletes in the world.

We are spoilt for riches in terms of Spoty this year. I can make a case for a good number of athletes to be worthy recipients. By all means support the athlete of your choice and make a strong case extolling their virtues. But please Fraziel, learn that humility is a virtue and try to stick to things with which you are genuinely familiar. Try being number 1 road rider in the World and then show up for a World champs with no-one to help you in the later stages. Cipollini was a fantastic sprinter and World Champion. He could not have won a thing without his team. There is quite a lot to this road racing business.

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posted Aug 21, 2008

TonyCooke, wow, what an elitist arrogant condescending reply.So I cant possibly really know about cycling as i have not been near elite alpine climbs?The old elitist argument used by ignorant sprtsman that someone cant possibly know what they are talking about if they have not competed at the highest level.Tthe same sort of argument used by pompous art critics the world over .Total rubbish of course and if it were true would rule out 99.99999999% of sports fans on having a valid opinion on any sport they like including gary Imlach, and even Phil Liggett, who did not race as a professional.Of course people can know about something, regardless of competing at top level or not.To suggest otherwise shows a staggering level of ignorance.Of course, watching every stage of every tour for 20yrs, reading several autobiographies and biographies of cyclists and a keen interest in my favourite sport could not possibly give me any idea about tour cycling.

i have read my posts and do not believe i have said anythinh which could be construed as an offensive insult.Perhaps i should not have used the term piss poor but to describe Boardman as not up too snuff in the tour, over hyped and disappointing in the tour de France is perfectly reasonable as that is exactly what he was.And i dont think you should be telling anyone what they need to be.I remember the English media telling us how he could win the tour and could be a top tour rider.That sounds pretty much like over hyped and disppointing to me considering the performances.

i remember when he arrived on the scene and being excited at the prospect of another potentially great cyclist as Robert millar was just winding down his career. It became evident after a few years that he was nat able to live any where near up to expectation on the tour.He has even adnitted himself that he did not do that well due to his " inability to recover".Unfortunately having an inability to recover after each stage pretty much precludes you form being a top road grand tour cyclist.I will give him his due in that he was a great track cyclist.But then so was Graeme Obree.Another Scot with arguably more talent than Boardman but who got left in his shadow.

i also mentioned the media coverage.Robert Millar got virtually none yet Boardman got lots, by cycling standards.Why i wonder.I am sure we both know the answer.Robert Millar was a Scot and as he was not racing for Britain, as such, was prtty much ignored by the Uk wide media other than cycling magazines.

I also enjoyed your comments about cipollini needing a team in road cycling, and that "there is quite a lot to this road racing business".Honestly? and here i did not know that with over 20 yrs of following mens road cycling.

I take on board your comments bout womens road cycling as you appear to have an in depth knowledge of it but I have watched it, do look out for it and have tried to find out about it.What I have seen and read suggest that it is not of a particularly high standard.That is my informed opinion, and i am entitled to it.

And by the way I was born well before the 80's.

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posted Aug 21, 2008

Fraziel, I wonder if you're a scotsman? If so, it's a shame that as a fellow scot and a cycling obsessive I can't help reading your posts with a sense of irritation.... There must be so few of us around with this common interest that we could probably have happily put away a few good beers discussing our favourite sport....

I certainly do remember Robert Millar, and having recently read Richard Moore's excellent book I was reminded vividly of all his best moments (sadly Richard left out the pivotal moment in Robert's life where he met me at the Tour of Britain in Windsor!). I think the problem with Robert and the media was twofold: He had an appaling personality and he was around at the same time as the much more successful and much more likeable Stephen Roche, who was close enough to being British that the public here happily pretended he was. I think Millar was a great bike rider and it's a shame what has happened to him in recent years, but as in the case of Graeme Obree (whom I have more admiration for than possibly any other man alive), he just wasn't the full media package....
I'm not sure why you have such disdain for Boardman, we'll leave that there, but I'm glad you've admitted that 'p***-poor' was a bad choice of wording. Yes, the prologue is not the B-all and end-all but Chris had some bad luck with crashes and his sponsors were probably happy with a few days in yellow having never employed him to be a GC contender. In my mind, if you want to talk about whining Brits you need look no further than fellow Scotsman David Millar, whose incessant whinging about climbs being too steep and being stitched up by his own DS with faulty front derailleurs was hard to stomach even before he was exposed as the liar and cheat that he was. I still shudder when I think of him on the podium at the final TT at the 2003 TdF with his boxer shorts out above his trousers and his cap on backwards, and to think people thought Lance was arrogant.......

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posted Aug 22, 2008

As the person who started this discussion, I am disappointed with certain contributors comments, who seem to have taken it in a completely different direction! If you want to start a discussion whereby you verbally abuse each other off, I propose you do so on another forum. The discussion was based around the question "who should win the BBC sports personality of the year?".

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posted Aug 23, 2008

Paolo73, I am sorry you found my post irritating but I was somewhat irritated when I posted and it obviously came through.To be told you have no clue about cycling, despite many years of following it,because i have not competed at the top level was completely out of order as well as elitist and condescending.Not just to me, but to every fan of every sport who hasnot competed at the top level.I was rather peed off.to put it mildly.

I too have read the book on Robert Millar and although i agree that he was somewhat difficult its no excuse for the lack of coverage or recognition.I am sure you looked at his achievements at the back of the book.Quite remarkable and puts him head and shoulders,IMO, above any other British cyclist.

I am Scottish but i do not have an anti English chip ( my father is English) but there is no doubt that some sportsmen are hyped beyond any realistic expectation and Scots ones are often virtually ignored by the UK wide media.If anything this is getting worse.Its only when they compete under the British banner that they are given appropriate coverage.I often read the English press, and no doubt there appears to be a growing anti scottish resentment in general and this is sometimes being reflected in sports journalism.

Why do i dislike Boardman so much?,he was so mega hyped,when Millar was so pointedly ignored, and was such a huge disappointment in the tour, compared to the hype. Of course, i was in my early twenties then and a bit naive.It was only later that i realised he
never did have any chance of winning the tour and the hype was all down to journalists who didnt really have a clue about cycling.

The disappointment was also mixed with irritation at his never ending whingeing and excuses.Almost without exception in every interview during the tour and every article he wrote (that i heard and read) he made excuses and complained.After years of poor performances it became clear that he wasn't under performing and that the performances actually reflected his ability.I never heard the other cyclists make so many excuses.They seemed to accept that suffering was something you just had to deal with.

ok, he was great in the prologue, but lets be realistic and put the prologue in its rightful place.I am sure you have an idea where that is.

I read on a web site recently a journalist had written that Chris Boardman was "Britain's greatest ever cyclist". I also heard Gary Imlach say the same once ( and he should know better).I was, frankly, outraged that he should be described as such just on his own performances never mind when stacked up against Millar.I have seen a fair few posts too about how great Boardman is.Nothing wrong with having a counter view IMO if you can back it up!

I have, like yourself i am sure, been very pleased and excited to see the cycling results at the olympics but its obvious that many people dont even know about Cav's achievements and where olympic cycling stands compared to elite road cycling.This is a good place to put in a good word for him.

And by the way, I share some of your opinions on David Millar.

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posted Aug 25, 2008

I think it should be Victoria Pendleton as the pressure was on her and if there were an equal number of female cycling events than men, she would have matched Chris Hoy.

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posted Aug 28, 2008

Good last post above Fraziel, I can sense your passion for the sport coming through and I respect your opinion on all fronts.

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posted Aug 31, 2008

Fraziel - You stand corrected about the facts of your Boardman posts. This then places your opinions on that topic in a different light.

I liked your comment about trying to find out about women's cycling. Well done on your attempt, you were not foiled by your own hand.

I know nothing about Scottish Table Tennis and from the media available to me, the reporting is so shallow that, if I were to offer an opinion on it, that opinion would be valueless.

It is impossible from the English language media to gain a perception of the Women's Road Cycling scene that would make the opinion you were so strongly making, valid. That would be the same for anyone trying to draw conclusions based on such shallow reporting. Further, there are so many aspects of the Women's scene that are so different to the Men's Road scene that straightforward comparisons, sometimes fall away. One of these would be placing the importance of the Olympics in the Male calendar and transferring that status to the women's scene.

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