posted Jun 12, 2008

so what for the Argy players? of course they want to be there because they'll be closer to their paymasters.
Maybe you should ask a decent number of Argentine rugby fans what they think of not actually getting to see their team play live?
Is not the whole point of 'expansion' to grow the game around the world? Do you think Spanish fans will adopt the Argies over the Spanish team? be a sad day for Spanish rugby if that happened, especially as they are travelling quite nicely at the moment from reports I've read.

and no, I don't accept that 10man rugby is loved by most fans. Just a simple flick through this forum alone tells me that, despite all the NH v SH jibes, most fans say they wish their teams would show more enterprise and attack the game and opposition.
As is actually the whole point to the game.

It does not 'dumbdown' anything. On the contrary, I'd say a forward based bash it up and hope for 3 points is the dumbest tactic. However, if you're looking to attack for tries first of all (and settle for 3 if the try can't happen) then it takes a far more intelligent brain to process all the options in front of you and decide in an instant wether you should kick, pass, setup quick ruck ball, go wide, pass short, etc etc. As opposed to what? drive it up one out for 5 'phases' and kick for the corners? not a great thinker required there, just someone that can follow orders.

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posted Jun 12, 2008

I greatly fear that this S14 expansion is going to kill off provincial rugby once and for all.

It is provincial rugby that made NZ rugby so, so strong for so many decades. Having the best domestic competition produces the best national team.

We can no longer claim to having the best domestic comp; and in turn we're assisting the Saffas and Aussies by strengthing their players against ours in the S14.

Someone earlier made a very good comment that the NZRU are lapdogs to Rupert Murdoch. We've jumped into bed with him along with the Saffas and Aussies and the only way we can please all of them is by dilluting our product and our resources in search of more ratings and fans for their advertisers.

We've should've taken his money back in 96 and used it only to strenghten and development our domestic game. And when the format needed tweaking then we'd only have to factor in what is good for our game and not the Aussies, Saffas, Japs or Yanks.

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posted Jun 12, 2008

Grizz, I hear you mate and agree wholeheartedly.
Unfortunately though, the realities are that you need money to survive in the modern era. Where I feel the NZRU has gone wrong is in trying to have a 2/3 tier system, with NPC, S14 and ABs.
We simply don't have the money to fund the provinces and the S14 sides to the full extent.

Like it or not, the NPC will always be 2nd fiddle to the S14. However I would like to see an additional NZ side in the S14, and the NPC to become a feeder amatuer comp.
I think concentrating the money a the elite level will ensure we keep our stars on the financial level (if they want to go for 'lifestyle' then there's nothing you can do about that).

But international competition brings in the bucks as has been shown in soccer and European rugby. If teams are playing in different countries then their sponsors get greater exposure and will pay more for starters.

Like it or not, we're stuck with the underlying issue that games bring in the money. We either establish Super rugby as being our main source of income, or go back to the NPC days and flog the ABs to all corners of the globe to bring in money.

And Murdoch would not have given all his money to the NZRU alone. He wanted an international sport to strengthen his position of power in each country. Only a fool would believe he was somehow being the kind, old millionaire-uncle splashing the cash out of the goodness of his heart.

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posted Jun 12, 2008

"Boycott divides and divided opinion like no one else. My father thought Boycott was the finest cricketer of his generation, and would watch him all day, every day if he could."

Norbert

I had a season of cricket up in Yorkshire in 1983 as the overseas player. There was a saying then that went soemthing along the lines of:

"Geoff Boycott is a hero in Yorkshire to those who don't know him; to those that do he is an a------."

He was truly a great cricketer though.

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posted Jun 12, 2008

I totally agree with you that what's done is done. But any further hits to our provincial game will further set us up for failure. Whatever decision is reached needs to be for the good of provincial rugby as well as appeasing our paymaster and his beloved S14.

And while I'd never suggest that Murdoch would have only invested in NZ rugby back in 1995/96 you'd be very surprised how much sway NZ rugby and its players had in turning this game professional. We could've bargained for so much more and protected our legacy so much more. In case you've not read the book "The Rugby War" by Peter Fitzsimmons; you should buy/borrow it. Fascinating 'cloak and daggers' look at how rugby went professional, and we lead the way down our corner of the world.

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posted Jun 12, 2008

'so what for the Argy players? of course they want to be there because they'll be closer to their paymasters.
Maybe you should ask a decent number of Argentine rugby fans what they think of not actually getting to see their team play live?'

Fine, then get the SANZAR boys to get off their arses and get Argentina involved in a Quad-Nations. It won't happen however as they always block any attempt at such talk. So the next best alternative in a 7nations. Something has to give and I don't think SANZAR will do anything to help Argentina.

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posted Jun 12, 2008

getinthebath, can i suggest you do get in and hold your head under?

Argentina have a standing invitation to the 3N as soon as they can guarantee that their players will get released from the Euro clubs and they'll field a full strength side.

I can't believe how many times people spout off all kinds of kak that is well known not to be true. Try reading a bit of rugby news websites and then make a usefull contribution ya twit.

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posted Jun 13, 2008

Here is a thought for the UAR - why dont they get of their own inept rears and do something for themselves.

I would like to see them involved in whatever competition suits them best.

From what I can see they dont seem to be making much of an effort. Hell, they are resisting professionalism for starters.
You can lead a horse to water and all that...

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posted Jun 16, 2008

Regarding Argentina, there is a thread a few below this one entitled 'The trouble with Argentina'. I put this on there - surprisingly, no one has replied, and that's puzzling as there seem to be a lot of folk on here well-verswed on rugby culture and politics in Argentina.

Anyway here's what I said.

''The FAR do indeed want to keep the game amateur there, and it's important folk understand why. Professional rugby is simple a non-starter in Argentina in the face of the football behemoth (if you think your typical Englishman is soccer-obsessed, go to Argentina). The only way they can keep rugby alive, is to keep it amateur, keep it local and at club level, and keep the 'family' and place traditions that means grandfathers, fathers and sons, and all the rest all play for the local club. Essentially, it's the very amateur, community focus. This 'family'/town/locality link is very important. It works really well for them, as they churn out great players.

This isn't me talking, it's one of Argentina's leading sports journalists who explained matters last year. It's why the Argentine players expressed a desire to play in the 6N - even if based in Spain. Course they would. Pro-rugby is a non-starter in their homeland; no S14 franchise will take on top Argentine players; they must go to Europe as professionals; thus: Europe is where they should be involved.

The IRB know this. But ignore it. So do the 6N. Who helpfully suggested the Tri-N instead.''


So there we are. Bit of a problem. Course, if you're a blow hard you'll ignore all this and tell Argentina to 'pull their socks up' or some such. Just get a pro league, and be done. If only life were as simple as those who suggest this sort of nonsense.

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posted Jun 16, 2008

Nobert - thanks for the post, it makes very interesting reading.

I recall this explanation for the UAR resistance to professionalism. Thanks for the reminder.

Still, Im not sure if this issue absolves the UAR of a responsibilty to promote both the game and the Pumas at a higher level then they do currently.
Also, if the game is to grow globally as expected then surely at they are going to have to bite the bullet at some stage or else they are just going to fall further out of touch.

A poor analogy, but NZ, with its small size and rugby mad population still supports a professional football team.

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