posted May 17, 2008

Grandbuckmaster, I just want to reply to some of your comments:

2. Those other European countries (France, Germany, Russia, Ukraine, Italy, Poland, Belarus, Romania, maybe you could include Spain in that list as well) have been doing for DECADES what British Fencing has been doing FOR A FEW YEARS. It's unreasonable to expect immediate results. Look at the USA football team. For years, they were whipping boys. Now, they can just about start to contemplate making the last 16 in the World Cup.

3. Maybe Alex doesn't receive as much as Jo. I don't know how much funding either of them receives. However when you say that Alex doesn't receive as much training as Jo receives, I would disagree. Jo has her coaches. Alex has his. Alex has been coached by the same guys since he was seven years old. When Alex left school and went to Cambridge, one of his coaches effectively followed him there. Why would he suddenly want to change coach, after thirteen years?

4. You're right, Alex's success shouldn't be an excuse for the others. It isn't. If you speak to any of the fencers who failed to qualify for 2008, none of them, I am sure, will say to you, 'well it's ok because Alex qualified.' However, as I said before, it is unreasonable to expect immediate results from fencers who have only had the support their rivals have had all their lives, for a few years.

5. Personally I think that the focus on 2012 is down to the BOA, not the BFA.

6. Of course no-one thinks only one qualified is a fantastic achievement. And I can assure you that there are many people who disagree with the selections for the qualifiers.

9. Again, those other countries are doing better than we are because they have been putting more into fencing for a lot longer than we have.

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posted May 27, 2008

In terms on anonymity, maybe that is the problem with debate pages such as this. People can snipe and carp from the sidelines without having to take responsibility for their comments.

"9. Again, those other countries are doing better than we are because they have been putting more into fencing for a lot longer than we have."

This quote from mrbotts is really the nub of the matter. No-one is dismissing 2008 as unimportant. The problem is that fencing has been ignored for years and suddenly there has been a pot of gold thrown at an unprepared sport. The timeline to produce a fencer capable of qualifying for an Olympic games was too long to focus on 2008. Even for 2012 the fencer has to be at that standard by 2011 to avoid the lottery of the zonal qualifying event.

Grandbuckmaster - I understand what you say about the attitudes of some people within fencing, but I have spoken to parents of youngsters at the top in a number of sports. Fencing seems little different to their experiences in that regard.

If your only contact with fencing is through a youngster just starting in the sport, then you have done a remarkable amount of research. You are obviously articulate and with strong views about how things should be organised. I hope that your child continues to enjoy and be successful at fencing and that you implement your views by getting involved on the administration side to promote positive change.

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posted Aug 10, 2008

Perhaps a little perspective is required here, instead of slagging each others view points off. Im appalled at everybodies intolerance of each other, from what ive read everybody has made some valid point to this blog.
And before anyone decides to tell me that i dont know what im talking about, ive been fencing for quite a few years, am my fencing clubs team captain and have participated in more than a few epee competitions, at a decent level.
The nub of the matter is pretty simple from what ive seen, the entire way we train people to come through the ranks is amateurish at best. Many of the clubs ive been to have no national ciriculum with which to train with and many of the moves they attempt to teach are also flawed as they themselves have had poor instruction during their formative years as a beginner. As one example, the number of students i see being told to do nearly all movements from their wrist and not from their fingers is staggering. Im in the lucky position of having a coach who believes in training people on a one to one basis while emphasing doing things correctly rather than en masse just to get club numbers up. Im sorry to say this but perhaps its time the BFA took the lead here and re-evaluated what the syllabus should include. Perhaps if we get the basics right then the next generation of fencers will be more succesful and we wont have to rely on a couple of "talents" who like the rest of us DO have off days.

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posted Aug 10, 2008

I know little about how the GB fencing system works but I can imagine it functions like most other 'elite' sports hear in the UK.
As soon as their are more clubs that popularise the sport then I'm afraid GB will be at the bottom for quite some time.
The fact that the BBC has failed to give any decent coverage also doesn't help. How can kids possibly get in to sports if they are unaware of it's existance.

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posted Aug 12, 2008

I have been a fencer for a long time (25 year), almost fencing in the veterans competition but not quite, and have been able to contrast (although not at the top level) fencing in the UK and on the continent. I have even been thoroughly taken apart by Alex in competition and I am very pleased he got to the Olympics, and although it is disappointing that he could not progress he fenced well and came very close (15-14) which is good considering he was clearly the outsider.

The article and the responses all have some valid points. The key point is that it takes a long time and a lot of commitment to build up the infrastructure needed to consistently produce world class fencers, and UK fencing has been running on a shoestring for far too long for that to happen quickly.

There is still a lot of very well meaning but poor coaching going on at many clubs. I do not want to disparage these people - to be honest they have often been the only people available and willing to run the clubs and coach, usually for nothing. They are also the people that ensure that the one thing UK fencing is NOT is elitist, even if fencing is perceived as such. I can speak from experience as although I was taught good blade-work at school-level the footwork, and this could almost be characterised as the British disease of fencing, was terrible. So much so that I eventually suffered a serious injury due to it - it was corrected at University level after some physiotherapy but the damage was done.

Usually at club level fitness and footwork is not often given sufficient priority. The frequent excuse is that they do not want to scare off prospective fencers with a 2 hour footwork practice, but without this almost from day one it will be hard for us to produce the critical mass of good fencers young enough.

The last point is that fencing is a highly competitive sport and the UK does have a good roster of competitions. What is lacking in many of them is a good consistent standard of refereeing. Poor refereeing gives the wrong feedback to a learner fencer as to what moves they should or should not be trying. At best it will send them in an unhelpful direction, at worst it will confuse and eventually lead them to quit the sport if they find it arbitrary and unfair. The few trained referees there are often stretched and end up dealing with the higher level bouts only. Unfortunately this means that it is the new fencer who really needs the consistent decisions in order to learn who does not get them. Even when the referee is fundamentally good there have certainly been occasions where there have been rule changes and the referee does not know them well enough to apply them consistently, or at all. As an experienced fencer this is OK, you just play to the rules you think the referee is following and you have been around long enough to know what these may be, you may even know the referee and know how he tends to judge, however to the inexperienced this will seem confusing and arbitrary. In the two events I have been in on the continent, however, were an eye-opener. The refereeing and the application of the rules has always been absolutely clear. One of the most enjoyable bouts I have fought was refereed by one of the French officials. I lost to a fencer of far superior skill to mine, but the referee’s analysis of each hit was so precise and clear that I knew exactly what I was doing wrong and my standard improved considerably though the fight, and this was despite the fact his explanation was in French.

So for me these are the main problems. 1. Coaching at a basic level, 2. lack of focus on fitness from day one and 3. poor refereeing at many lower levels of competition. I am also pretty sure most people in UK fencing also know this full well.

These issues take a long time to sort out, and take a consistent level of funding over many years. A national curriculum would help a great deal - and indeed may now exist (I have been out of active participation for a little while). However as well as coaching support we also need training for the referees and a drive to improve standard in fencing footwork and fitness.

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posted Aug 13, 2008

happySabrer makes a lot of good points.

First, can I say that no one should have a go at our representatives at the games. I salute their effort and the achievement of getting so far. All three of them are exceptional products of a system that simply produced far to few of the genuine article.

The problem lies not with the current elite squads, but with the inability of the system that supports them to generate, identify and develop talent over a long period. To succeed in the UK a fencer has to make themselves, after than they can get support, but to get that far is incredibly hard which is why we have so few genuine international competitors.

Why? Well...

1. There have been a number of attempts to reform the coaching system and curriculum. The problem is that everyone thinks that they know best and they are all massively invested in the work they have done and the expertise that they have. This means that there is patchy adoption of the various schemes.

For one example of a current coaching syllabus see:

http://www.englandfencing.co.uk/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=16&MMN_position=64:20:63

You can see that the syllabus is pretty concise. I've done the Epee and Foil level ones, and I have to say that the key thing I noticed on my course was that the people who were long term competitive fencers didn't just get through (I think two people failed, out of 10 on one of the courses) but could give a meaningful lesson around the techniques, where as people who were club fencers and doing it in order to *support* their fencing club were able to master the techniques required, but I doubt that they could produce a meaningful lesson in the context of preparing someone to use them for real.

This is crucial because technique is like a brick wall - every brick must be right if the whole thing is to be solid. And this is why so many UK fencers will (and do) say things like "I can't fleche" or "Ballistas never work" or "I just do what I do and it works fine"; they are missing a key component because when they learned it it was incorrectly taught and their coaches didn't recognise and correct the fault. This means that they can't fence tactically and they can't respond to challenges like a defensive or tall opponent.

2. Which brings me on to the other reason why we don't produce a large pool of competitors. Lack of role models. There are very few "good" fencers in England outside London and the South West. This means that there are relatively few clubs where kids get to watch high quality fencing on a regular basis. In addition this means that the county and section competitions are very weak, meaning that kids starting out will have to face "backwoods men" who wield battle axes and not epees, and are therefore motivated to work on techniques that match the fights that they are likely to get.

A really good fencer has no problems with an idiot swinging a club, distance and timing and footwork make them look like what they are. Someone who is half way to being a good fencer has a harder time though, and therefore they loose, learn that being an idiot works, and then get destroyed whenever they come up against someone good.

Here is an anecdote. Years ago I went to a "B" grade in France (possibly Belgium on reflection:: doesn't matter). One of the other Brits there was a well known member of the awkward sqaud who had done quite well on the UK circuit for the last couple of years, I think that he was ranked in the top 50 and may be got a top 20 ranking at some point (this is mens epee, so this is not the most amazing thing that can happen). He was obliterated in the competition, and put it down to being hung over (amazing! typical?) but I watched some of his poule matches. The pattern was that he would get one or two points and then the opponent would simply sus him and take him apart.

Against fencers that knew what they were doing he had no chance.

In the UK he did pretty well.

Good technique and good preparation is not properly rewarded or encouraged by our competitive framework.


So - what to do.

1. Coaching needs to be systematically developed in the UK in a long term program. We need to find UK fencers who have international experience and a commitment to the sport and to support them to make a living out of coaching. We need to support their ongoing development and we need to recognise that this will take 10 years to pay off.

2. We need to reform our competitive structure. UK "opens" need to be changed to be smaller, and we need a lot more of them. They should feature 3 or 4 rounds of poules. This will provide a lot of opportunity for people to fence a larger number of opponents reducing the chance of an unlucky draw eliminating the genuinely good young competitors.

It would also reduce the need for fencers to travel all over the country to get points and widen competitive exposure.

There are two problems with this.

Firstly we have only 4 years; although given our failure at 2008 it is likely we will not be supported by UK sport as a medal prospect going forward to 2012.

Secondly developing the economic means to do this is probably impossible now. Motivating the organisation of competitions on the format I describe is difficult because of sports hall costs, and providing pay for long term coaches is beyond the means of the national body.

Well - let's hope something turns up!

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posted Aug 13, 2008

Well isnt it funny how all the fencers on here have come to the same conclusion, we need a coherent national ciriculum, and one it seems that supports competitive fencing..........lets hope somebody who can actually effect change is listening

For all those wondeful people out there claiming that fencing is eliteist and beyond the reach of the unwashed masses....what a crock of............. Im neither privilleged or well off, just keen. Regardless of class if youre interested enough in something youll eventually find a way to try it. Most clubs have equipment you can try the sport out with for free, hell even my 8 year son fences and he goes to a standard state school. Perhaps one should try to access the sport and gauge for themselves how difficult it is before casting aspertions.


sgt101 . I have to say " ican fleche" but only because i kept getting kicked for not fleching once id made a good opening. But seriously, i can see why people dont bother so much now, its banned in sabre, i havent seen it done a lot myself in top foils competitions either (although that maybe my just missing it). The only legitimate place now it seems where its used as a great offensive tool is epee. So if you dont eppe, why fleche i guess. But i do take your point, and its well made as it extends to other moves as well

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posted Aug 14, 2008

I know nothing much about Sabre, but what they banned, I think, was crossovers. This meant that Fleches as they were taught and are still taught at Epee and Foil were effectively prohibited.

On the other hand if you watch the highlights of the fight between our lad and the russian fella on the bbc sport site now you can see a couple of actions that are basically fleche's without a crossover, which have become pretty popular in Sabre recently.

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posted Aug 17, 2008

Firstly any placing between 33rd and 64th is going out in the last 64 as anyone who got through this round will be given a ranking of 32 and above. While those going out in the last 128 will have a ranking between 65 and 128.

Secondly The fleche without a crossover is commonly known as a flunge and is very risky but is possibly one of the fasstest forward movements in fencing especially when done properly.

Thirdly I have been fencing for 22 years now and I went to the same school as Alex and I can vouch for the quality of coaching he has received. The school we went to is well known as one of the best sabre schools in the country and many other high ranking junior sabreurs have come from there.

Finally the reason that British fencers do not achieve at the same standard as other European nations is not only the quality of coaching but the style of coaching. European coaches will teach you to lunge and then they will teach you to lunge and again and again and if you have not got that perfected then you will never learn another move. They teach the basics and the teach them so well that they can take apart another fencer who knows a host of advanced techniques. With footwork and a standard attack a European fencer can take apart 90% of all British fencers. Further to this there is funding available that makes coaching an attractive option to fencers.

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posted Aug 17, 2008

Also until fencing is publicised it will never be a popular sport. The BBC have completely overlooked fencing in the olympics for ass long as I have been alive and I am sure that it will carry on doing so for the forseeable future. In this age of streaming internet television I do not see why the BBC can not at least put the final of the fencing events online. It really would not be too hard for them to do it. I pray for the day when i can turn on the bbc tv coverage of the oympics and watch a fencing event live.

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