posted Nov 30, 2007

Bingting, no,no,no,no.no!
The idea of players coached to model their game on Bartoli fills me with despair, she has the ugliest game I have ever seen and if that is the future of tennis, I'll be giving it a wide berth.

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posted Nov 30, 2007

Federalexpress,

NO,NO, NO!!! the model is SELES, not Bartoli!!!

But I think if Bartoli had not copied the technique of Monica, she would not have made into the top 200.

Also Santoro " the Magician" would not have enjoyed so much success, had he not used this two-handed style to disguise his shots -- that is where his nickname came from!!!

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posted Dec 1, 2007

One thing is for sure. Seles belongs in the pantheon of tennis greats and will be remembered as the first real power player of the womens game.

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posted Dec 3, 2007

I think that the double-handedness is (or rather, has been) more about ‘attitude’ than outright pace – though the two can be related. To illustrate, ^the forehands^ of Henin, Ivanovic and Serena Williams are consistently struck faster/heavier than any double-handed stroke on the WTA Tour. Thus, the suggestion that being double-handed affords/provides ‘greater power’ (as suggested in your Seles comment above; sorry if I have misinterpreted it… ) is simply not correct, in any measurable sense. Moreover, Henin (for example) strikes her single-handed backhand at speeds faster than many players using a double-handed stroke. The top/fastest speeds off Henin’s single-handed backhand were faster than those off Sharapova’s DHB throughout the 2006 US Open tournament, for example – around +5-10 MPH higher. You could argue that Henin is highly, highly exceptional, of course – as very, very few players have a backhand (single or doublehanded) of such power and quality.

I don’t think that there is any ^intrinsic^ (overall) ‘advantage’ to being double-handed – and the disadvantages probably outweigh the advantages in the modern game, which requires quick, explosive, recovery time between each shot.

I don’t think that Seles’ ‘doublehandedness’ was a ‘deciding factor’ is ‘Seles’ dominance’ in the early 1990s, either. It could have been a ^contributory factor^ – but nothing more, imho. Rather, Seles was a ‘unique’ player, with exceptional gifts – equipped with:

- fast reflexes

- the ability to read the ball especially early

- exceptional control of the racquet face

- the ability to create acute crosscourt angles

- mental resilience when placed under [scoreline] pressure
etc.

Most (if not all) of these characteristics cannot be ‘taught’, or learned.
That is to say, you could train fifty other players to play doublehanded off both wings but they would not be as talented, of effective, as Seles. And they wouldn’t breach the top 200. Seles was idiosyncratic in this regard, as I believe most of the great champions are. I would apply this equally to Serena Williams, Justine Henin, Martina Hingis – they had/have abilities that simply separate them from the rest of the field.

Seles wasn’t the first double-handed player on the Tour and she will not be the last.


bingtin wrote:
“It also drastically diminished the chances of getting injured because the two-handers are less one-sided and more balanced -- using the whole body to produce the shots from BOTH sides -- comparable to a good golf swing”

Hmmmm well, according to non-specialist commentators (such as you find in national broadsheets), doublehandedness actually ^leads^ to injury, rather being in any way ‘preventative’ to injury. This is because of the rotational effects of being double-handed – and the related stress placed on abdominal muscle groups. However, singlehandedness in the modern games also places the same stresses upon the body. I have seen no evidence [in specialist] writing/research that suggests being double-handed confers a biomechanical advantage in tennis. If it did, you can be sure that tennis academies would have been set up to train students to play [only] double-handed.


I actually tore my intercostals (lower abdominal) muscles launching into a backhand (I have a DHB) back in 2004, though probably had more to do with the fact(s) of not being properly warmed-up and also ‘over rotation’ on my groundstrokes, which my coach has since tried to correct…

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posted Dec 3, 2007

And, going back to the Bartoli comment, there are in fact several other players in the top 500 that play double-handed off both wings (I can’t remember all their names right now… ), though it is unusual. One of my main hitting partners plays DHB both sides.

Bartoli is somewhat underrated, imo. She has very good ball control, is capable of executing really acute crosscourt angles (especially ‘short-angled’ crosscourt shots) and pretty good touch – I have seen her play live. Bartoli isn’t especially powerful, though. She strikes a solid, heavy (and flat) ball – but not approaching the kind of speeds that Henin, Ivanovic and Serena can all hit at. However, once she is being overpowered, Bartoli really has recourse – as was brutally exposed by Henin at the season ending Championships, throughout tyheir round robin match.

In a 6-0 6-0 match (the shortest of all the tournament matches by far) Henin struck 30 winners to Bartoli's grand total of 2.

Henin also hit marginally more unforced errors (than Bartoli). A player like Kuznetsova would have been able to contain at least some of Henin’s winners, simply through adaptability when placed under continual defence.

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posted Dec 3, 2007

But would you agree that Seles would not have reached her dominant level of playing had she played single-handed from both sides? I would definitely think so. That would have considerably diminished her power, her control, her balance, her shot-variety, and your are right, her aggressive and confident attitude. She even volleyed two-handed! The only one-handed shot was her serve -- which was not an exceptional one, to say the least. Surely not in the same category with Graf or Novotna.

To compare anyone with Henin is, IMO, rather misleading, because she is, as you said, highly exceptional. I consider her the best player (also probably one of the smallest)ever in women´s tennis -- I know this statement would provoke the Graf fans. but if you look at their games closely, you have to agree that in the most components of the game Henin is superior to Graf:

First Serve: Equally lethal. Henin´s is more consistantly, and Graf´s extremely high ball toss made her serve vulnerably in windy conditions.

Second Serve: Graf´s is more secure as she rarely double-faulted. Henin opts to serve flat and deep which causes double-faults. That also shows Henin´s love for taking risks, as it often pays off.

Forehand: Equally powerful and lethal.

Backhand: A mismatch. Henin has the best backhand in the history. Graf had only a defensive slicer -- she would not survive with that shot today.

Volley: neither is known for her volleying prowess. I would give an edge to Henin for her better anticipation.

Mobility: both are exceptional. Slight edge to Henin simply because she is playing against much faster opponents that Graf played before.

Mental toughness: Definitely to Henin, who mostly emerges victorious from marathon matches against the likes of the Sisters, Mauresmo, sharapova, etc.. Graf did not have to be mentally tough most of the time. when Seles challenged her, she faltered (FO 90, 92, AO 93)

Graf´s 22 GSs is misleading, as she played in an extrmely weak era, and benefited enormously from the absence and later the enduring mental trauma of Seles.

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posted Dec 3, 2007

No, actually i wouldn't!!
As it is an impossible question to answer! Seles was what she was - there is no possible way of knowing how she would played 'singled-handed' since she did not learn to play the game that way. Had she learned a single-handed forehand she could have been equally as powerful, who knows?

Seles' control and shotmaking, are intrinsic to the woman herself - and not merely the effect of being double-handed. The latter may have ^aided^ her effectiveness but it certainly did not *confer* it, and that is my point.


I don't think that the comparison with Henin is
'misleading' as i was discussing exceptional players. Both Seles and Henin (and a few others) have abilities that separate them from the rest.


I actually feel that Henin is far superior player to Graf ^on a technical basis^ though, overall, i would put them equal. Mostly because Graf was a phenomenal athlete, the like of which may never been seen again in women's tennis.


Henin is a good, efficient mover, with excellent ^footwork^. At an athlete, Henin isn't in the same league, imo -but, then, no-one is.


Graf was from another planet. Not only was she extremely quick,
explosive in her movement, she could run for hours - and ^never^ appear tired.
Steffi's physical endurance was legendary. Many people said (back in the late 1990s) that Venus at Steffi's athletic heir - but i don't think that Venus has anything like Steffi's endurance capacity. I have seen Venus sit down, exhausted and winded,
gasping for breath, her chest heaving. near the end of three set matches. Not once did i ever see Steffi in such a condition.... the woman was incredible. Navratilova was before my time (so i can't comment) but Steffi was
the (and remains) finest athlete ever in the women's game, imo. In terms of physical endurance, Henin would rate a very poor second, partly through no fault of her own. Henin has proven distinctly
vulnerable in long-gruelling matches - and that is when she is most likely to lose. Henin is is noted to suffering from physical (and perhaps mental fatigue) fatigue as a result of the cytomegalovirus, which she contracted in
autumn 2003, that seems to have permanent effect upon her immune system. That's partly why Henin takes frequent breaks from the Tour, to rest. It's not just sensible Tour scheduling - it has been the strict advice of her doctors since 2004. In two set matches
Henin doesn't encounter he same kind of 'dips' in
performance, and her record in two-set matches is phenomenal - the best on Tour by a huge margin. Though she is prepared 'battle',
'fight' etc., Henin has stated that she much prefers short, two-set
matches, to conserve energy wherever possible.
I just can't see Henin winning the five-set matches that Graf used to win at the season ending Championships in 1990s.


It's hard to compare serves - and serving speeds, as they have simply increased 10 - 20% in the last 10 years, across the board. Thus, Venus Williams serves marginally faster now than she did in the late 1990s. I imagine if Graf were playing today she would have a serve as hard as Henin's and probably more effective (and more 'high percentage'), simply because of her greater height. Navratilova called Graf's serve 'the best in the women's game', back in the 1990s.


Henin's forehand is of totally different quality to Graf's, imo. Graf's was very powerful (but then Henin's is hugely powerful) but Henin can do more with her forehand, imo - and technically, it is a far sounder stroke. Henin has an 'ATP forehand', almost totally unique on the Tour.


I have to say that i hate Steffi's forehand, examining it from a technical and biomechanical perspective. I find the swing (especially on
the 'follow-through') ugly and just plain awkward. I think it remarkable, also, that
she got so much power from what is (cf. to the likes of Serena, Vaidisova etc.) a very compact swing. I have really long swings (as people, somewhat annoyingly, keep pointing out whenever i hit the fencing), so i just can't relate to Steffi's forehand at all.


Backhand - no comparison whatsoever. Graf had a topspin backhand but used it extremely rarely. Her slice really cut into the court but it would be hopeless returning the likes of Serena Williams' serve. It was Graf's backhand return-of-serve that effectively lost her the 1999 Wimbledon final - and Davenport served to Graf's backhand remorselessly (and repeatedly).


As for volleying(!!), Henin is a world class volleyer!!!!! I'm astounded if you feel hat Henin is 'not noted' for her volleying prowess'!!!! Navratilova rates Henin among the best (along with Mauresmo) in the women's game - as does Tracy Austin. John McEnroe views Henin has as having exceptional 'touch'/ volleying skill around the net. Take a look at many of Henin's matches during the summer (Eastbourne, Wimbledon) and you will see her hitting high [single-handed backhand] volleys for outright ^winners^ - this is a shot that few players on *the ATP Tour* attempt now (Henman used to play them)... On the WTA Tour, it's just about unheard of. Graf was an ^effective^ volleyer (no more and no less) - but rarely used her volleying skills in a match. Graf kept saying that she would volley more and that she 'should' volley more - but it never became a real facet of her game. In marked contrast, Henin frequently makes 20 - 30 net approaches in a single match, along with Venus Williams, more frequently than any player in the WTA top 20 (or even top 50, at a guess). Once she has opened up the court, or got in the first strike, Henin likes to finish the point immediately, either from the midcourt [groundstroke finish], or at the net [volley finish], typically for an outright winner. It's a far more immediately dynamic style of play. Additionally, Henin has the best overhead in women's tennis, along with Venus Williams'. Venus's overhead is equally as powerful as Henin's but she tends to always hit into the deuce side/corner of the court, which is a little predictable. Henin can slam it down anywhere, though she has problems under (flood)lights, possibly because she wear
contact lenses.


On mental toughness - i actually give the edge to Graf. I mean, the woman was a winning machine, year after year after year. Henin has been very dominant for periods in the last five years [2003 to 2007 inclusive] but Graf held that kind of dominance for the ten years, and relentlessly so. Sure, Seles unseated her 1990 - 1992 and was the better Grand Slam champion, no question. However, even in those years, Graf won at least Slam title each year - and multiple titles throughout the season. I personally feel that the field was a lot weaker back then but even so, it still takes a lot of mental resilience to perform like that year after year after year - and with a chaotic paternal relationship cluttering the background.....

________________________



comment by bingting
posted 13 Minutes Ago

But would you agree that Seles would not have reached her dominant level of playing had she played single-handed from both sides? I would definitely think so. That would have considerably diminished her power, her control, her balance, her shot-variety, and your are right, her aggressive and confident attitude. She even volleyed two-handed! The only one-handed shot was her serve -- which was not an exceptional one, to say the least. Surely not in the same category with Graf or Novotna.

To compare anyone with Henin is, IMO, rather misleading, because she is, as you said, highly exceptional. I consider her the best player (also probably one of the smallest)ever in women´s tennis -- I know this statement would provoke the Graf fans. but if you look at their games closely, you have to agree that in the most components of the game Henin is superior to Graf:

First Serve: Equally lethal. Henin´s is more consistantly, and Graf´s extremely high ball toss made her serve vulnerably in windy conditions.

Second Serve: Graf´s is more secure as she rarely double-faulted. Henin opts to serve flat and deep which causes double-faults. That also shows Henin´s love for taking risks, as it often pays off.

Forehand: Equally powerful and lethal.

Backhand: A mismatch. Henin has the best backhand in the history. Graf had only a defensive slicer -- she would not survive with that shot today.

Volley: neither is known for her volleying prowess. I would give an edge to Henin for her better anticipation.

Mobility: both are exceptional. Slight edge to Henin simply because she is playing against much faster opponents that Graf played before.

Mental toughness: Definitely to Henin, who mostly emerges victorious from marathon matches against the likes of the Sisters, Mauresmo, sharapova, etc.. Graf did not have to be mentally tough most of the time. when Seles challenged her, she faltered (FO 90, 92, AO 93)

Graf´s 22 GSs is misleading, as she played in an extrmely weak era, and benefited enormously from the absence and later the enduring mental trauma of Seles.

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posted Dec 3, 2007

And check out the US Open semi-final versus Venus Williams. Henin played some truly *spectacular* volleys in the match, both reflex (the ball coming right at her) and off her shoelaces..... Johnny Mac was swooning.

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posted Dec 3, 2007

So, it would appear there is a consensus of sorts that Seles did indeed change (womens') tennis. Good lively discussion on this in the end (indeed, more discussion than there was on the Agassi thread, which I didn't expect!).

No. 3 in the series will be tomorrow, all being well...

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posted Dec 3, 2007

Oh, for sure!

I see Seles as 'the link' from the 1980s era to the modern 'baseline attack' game we have today.

The woman was enormously influential, just as much as Agassi in the men's game...

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