posted Aug 27, 2007

Paulo6891 Lighten up.

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posted Aug 28, 2007

"And Brian O'Driscoll only became world class as soon as he scored those 3 tries against France, before which he was merely average?!"

Exactly, Paulo, exactly!

There's a guy lives across the road from me, he's never played a game of rugby in his life, but he's bigger than O'Driscoll, faster, and possibly more skilful too (though as he has never played a match, I can't be entirely sure). Should I consider him world class? And on my World XV, do I play him at 12 or 13? True, he's never been tested against the best teams - or, in fact, any teams - but you and I agree that it's natural ability that counts, not whether somebody has produced at the highest level under considerable pressure.

Makes sense to me.

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posted Aug 28, 2007

“So feel free to tell me where I said that there can't be more than one world class player per position. Sure didn't I mention a few world class 10s earlier? And a few world class hookers also? So there goes you're arguement...”

The assertion was that Best was currently one of the best hookers in the world and therefore ‘world class’. You said:
“So you think Best is world class? … Being the best in the lions surely doesn't automatically mean he's the best in the world.”
Notice the link? You associated the term “world class” with “the best in the world”. Not among the best, or as good as the best, but THE best in the world.

In your next paragraph you said:
“Youre just naming very good players, theyre not the best in the world or anywhere near so they cant be labelled as being world class. (except parisse, he'd get into the other teams)”
Again your inference is that world class means THE BEST in the world. Since you are obviously fond of language you will appreciate that the use of the definite article alongside the superlative indicates surpassing ALL others.

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The truth of the matter is that there is no objective way of defining what ‘world class’ means, and obviously my attempt to devise such a system isn’t acceptable to everyone. Every comparison between players is always going to have an element of irrationality that can’t be resolved. Therefore in the absence of any standard benchmark, no one and everyone could be described as ‘world class’ depending on the viewpoint!

BTW Paulo – Ledesma could be the name of the unknown Argentine hooker and I’d say he’s definitely world class.

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posted Aug 28, 2007

just my view on the entire world class debate.
I'd go with if you are picking a world xv then you to be world class you either be selected in your position or at least have a serious claim to be selected.

from the irish team I'd say BOD ,Darcy O'connell and imo leamy qualify as world class, best doesn't .

But thats just my view on the whole matter so no offence meant

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posted Aug 28, 2007

"I'd go with if you are picking a world xv then you to be world class you either be selected in your position or at least have a serious claim to be selected."

Do numbers come into it? Can there be a lot of world class players or hardly any?
Some positions seem to have a lot of candidates such as flanker, whereas other positions such as hooker don't seem to have anywhere near the same quality.

At the moment there aren't many hookers who would be classed as being an "all time great". The closest is probably Ibanez but at 33 most of his best days are probably behind him. Oliver and Mealamu swap places for NZ because of their different styles of play, and so neither is a 'complete' player. Like Ibanez, Smit is captain and a great leader but nothing extraordinary as a 2. And like Ibanez, Ledesma has been around for a long time and may have passed his peak. Can any of these justifiably lay claim to being 'world class' in the narrow sense of being measured up against some mythical standard? They all have strengths and weaknesses that could include or exclude them depending on viewpoint.

Maybe the IRB should produce a 'World XV' every year and then we'd all know what standard a player should be measured against?

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posted Aug 28, 2007

Maybe the IRB should produce a 'World XV' every year and then we'd all know what standard a player should be measured against?

that's a good idea, I agree with your other points to as you said in some positions there are a number of world class players at some there are hardly if any at all (hooker is a excellent example)

good post mate

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posted Aug 28, 2007

And have the international managers vote for who they want in each different position. (whisper - like they do in some other sports). You can always have your overall Player of the Year kept separate.

We should start a petition.

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posted Aug 28, 2007

Anyone else notice that if not for O'Gara playing today scoring points through his try(or not, bit of a Wilko V Scotland moment there methinks ), penalties & drop goal then there is little doubt that Ireland would have been soundly beaten. Basically if O'Gara gets injured then Ireland are up a certain creak without a paddle. There is no one of the same standard to step in at 10 for Ireland and take over in the absence of O'Gara.....worrying stuff

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posted Aug 28, 2007

Nah don't worry little Bob - Wallace would have scored more tries if he's had to come on

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posted Aug 29, 2007

"And Brian O'Driscoll only became world class as soon as he scored those 3 tries against France, before which he was merely average?!"

Exactly, Paulo, exactly!

There's a guy lives across the road from me, he's never played a game of rugby in his life, but he's bigger than O'Driscoll, faster, and possibly more skilful too (though as he has never played a match, I can't be entirely sure). Should I consider him world class? And on my World XV, do I play him at 12 or 13? True, he's never been tested against the best teams - or, in fact, any teams - but you and I agree that it's natural ability that counts, not whether somebody has produced at the highest level under considerable pressure.

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Sorry but that's just the most moronic posts I've ever seen on this site.

I just don't think you know what world class actually means. It means that you are either the best or among the best in the world at something. BOD didn't walk onto the pitch in Paris an average player and leave it a world class player. I'm pretty sure you'd have to be a world class player in the first place to score 3 tries against France, in France. He didn't walk off the pitch any better than before, he just walked off the pitch with a better reputation. Being world class isn't about your reputation, it's about how good you are.

And regarding your neighbour...

There are plenty of centres who are bigger and faster than BOD. If your neighbour is better than BOD then he has to be considered world class despite only playing for a local team, if any.

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