posted Jun 15, 2007

Why are people on here all berating the lack of flair or creativity in the centres?

I wouldn't look for flair or creativity from 12 or 13. There isn't much out there & what there is ie Tait, Catt, Allen, Flood, Geraghty cost us defensively and in size. There's always room for one Tait or a Giteau but unfortunately England lack physicality from 9-15 so it's impossible to accommodate them.

England are still strong in a couple of areas. I think we have two potentially excellent tight fives (though hooker is a concern) but there are some good props & outstanding 2nd rows here.

Where we're even stronger is in the wingers & full backs. Robinson, Sackey, Cueto, Strettle, Cipriani, Abendanon is mouthwatering. Morgan I don't know as much about. So good a selection that JSD & Scarborough cannot get in even the top 47.

So play to our strengths: The fron 5's and the wingers. For that reason put the best two defenders at 12 & 13. Lewsey & Tindall & look for the flair from 11, 14 & 15.

Australia win world cups & series' with very low try counts against them and just top drawer solid centres: Herbert, Grey, Horan, Little, Mortlock, Flatley while Roff, Tune, Campo, Tuqiri, Sailor, Rogers, Gerrard get the tries.

For this world cup we should follow that model.

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posted Jun 15, 2007

refsguidedog I believe you mean 2011 but I for one would value an extra year to get the conflicts and poor administration that are ruining our game sorted once and for all. Think you can sort it with RFU/EPR/Heineken?

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posted Jun 16, 2007

Once again it makes me laugh how some people get wound up about their favourite players who've played really well for their club are not in the squad. It's well known in pro-sport that players have different celings of what they can achieve. It's proven time and time again. The best coaches identify the players who can play well at the top level and it's why you see sometimes see 18 year olds like Wilkinson & Tait play for England. They have the X factor. I do believe Ashton and his team are on the right track after the disaster of Robinson.

There is alot of knockers of the inclusion of Dallaglio, Catt, Farrell, Robinson etc. The fact is these can guys can play at the top-level. In Farrell's case in a different version of the game, but he is winner. My only disagreement with the RFU is that they did n't make him a no 8, rather mess about with him at 6 and then move him to 12. If they'd played them right away and with a little more luck on injuries nobody would be debating the 8 shirt and Lol would be a TV pundit for the world cup.

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posted Jun 16, 2007

Hello Trev9999 , I agree with some of the points that you make. I have always liked Catt and in the 6 Nations he showed his creative skills and gave confidence to the younger players. The only issue I have with him is whether he can stay fit enough for the duration of the World Cup or at least long enough to help us to get through the group stages if Ashton decides to use him . Which he might as he plays the game that Ashton seeks.If he does not remain fit or gets injured, his experience as a back coach would prove worth while.
On Farrell ,I admired him as a rugby league player, and it is a pity that he has not been able to show his skills for England to the same extent. However , I hope this will change if Ashton goes for him ,and providing he has the right centre pairing I think that we might see it. Farrell / Tait, though i would have preferred Farrell and Erinle and brought Tait on later as a replacement. On LD , I don't deny his past credentials but am not convinced that he can provide a full 80 mins ,which is what Ashton said he was looking for in an interview.
Though he could provide 80 mins of been in the oppositions face and putting them off their game .
On Robinson, again great player, but he is not the same player that scored the only try in 2003. He is quick yes, but not lightening quick and younger speed merchants like Habana or if in an unlikely event we manage to get through to play NZ , Rokocoko...would leave him for dust. Ashton should have picked Varndell , we needed his fire power and creativity and there Ashton has failed to recognise that this 21 yr old could have been a shining light at this World Cup. Though i still live out hope that he might get called up. I am though glad that Ashton has finally called upon Simon Shaw to the training squad and hope that he will make the final cut.
However to return to Ashton himself, ok it is too early to judge, and it would be unfair really to as unlike his counterparts Laporte, Henry , Jake, O'Sullivan etc.. he has had limited time in the job and as he put it in an interview they have had years in the job and he has had only a handful of games. That is correct on three of them but not in Henrys case. However I was concerned watching him in the interview, perhaps he is lulling the opposition into a force sense of security by claiming he only knows four and possibly five of his starting line up. That if true is worrying, surely a "great coach " would know , even if he has had major obstacles thrown in his path. I also find it a concern that he has opted to pick players such as Tindell ,Hodgson and DW-S all of whom have been injured for long periods, it smacks of desperation. Don't get me wrong i hope Ward-Smith recovers in time for the warm up matches, I have never seen him play , only heard of his talent but he has had limited international experience , missed the 6 Nations, 2 or 3 matches is not going to bring him up to speed.
Which brings me onto the warm up matches, ok they will give Ashton an indication of who is fit or not, but not a true reflection of our World Cup games. So that in itself will give him a false sense of perspective. I think we play France , in one of the warm up games, is laporte going to play a 2nd string team ? Wales ,though they have improved ,and beat us comprehensively in the 6 Nations are not South Africa. So perhaps the likes of Robinson will shine if he recovers from his knee injury..but it will be different against the likes of South Africa and even Samoa ,who can always be a dangerous opposition and would never right them off or under estimate them. That is why I feel regret that Ashton did not have more inspiration to use the likes of JSD ,Erinle and Varndell. They all have that extra dimension to their game, and since Ashton claims to like exciting attacking rugby I am surprised he did not pick them.
I hope though that I am proved wrong and you right and that Ashton will indeed be seen as a great coach. Though realistically, it might not be until 2011 that he could be hailed as that.

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posted Jun 17, 2007

Snowmonkey a very well considered response and there's alot of fair points in there you've made. I think the reason Varndell is not being considered is because Ashton has 2 young and dynamic wings in Strettle and Sackey in the squad already. And to be honest they've done well immediately and plus Ashton still has doubts about Varndell's temperament and defensive skills. With JSD he's previously made comments about the bloke always being injured. Likewise Grewcock's not in, even provisionally awaiting appeal, because they've decided he's a caveman and the opposition will wind him up and get him binned again.

It's clear from his squad he wants to mix experience with youth, as his job will be on the line. There was no way he was going to risk a youthful squad with an eye on 2011. I don't think Hodgson will make it (hopefully) and i cant see him taking Catt, Farrell & Tindall. Looking forward to see how it shapes out.

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posted Jun 17, 2007

Hello Trev9999,
Thank you for your comments, and my apologies for the long winded statement and grateful that you bothered to trawl through it
I agree with your comments that Ashton does have two dynamic young wingers in Strettle and Sackey. Neither of whom i would have excluded from my squad ( on past posts they are both included though Strettle i sometimes put on bench with Varndell making the start). In the case of Strettle it is a pity that he caught a virus in SA as I would like to have seen how he faired against the likes of Habana. He is quick and showed as much in the 6 nations, though he was even more dazzling when he was playing Sevens Rugby ,though not in my view as breathtaking as either Matt Tait or Tom Varndell who both notched up 23 tries in a short space of time and proved a match for both the Fijian and Kiwis sides. On Sackey , he is also impressive, and showed as much in the 6 Nations, unfortunately injury ruled him out for the rest of it. Since his return he has shown for Wasps ,that he has not lost his form and has produced some scintillating displays of rugby scoring some amazing tries. Like i said I would not excluded him.
It is this notion though that Varndell lacks defensive qualities, it is not entirely merited, and the best person to scotch this myth is Juggler who has frequently provided me and others with statistics and more accurate analysis to put pay to these untruths. For example , that Varndell is faster , bigger and more powerfully built than Strettle. His record for Leicester in scoring tries is outstanding and England in the few matches he has played :
For Tigers, he has scored 40 tries in 45 starts over 3 seasons (plus 2 in 3 England caps).??That's a staggering return. quote from Juggler on Feb22nd 2007

also in response to his defence work :
<<< forget Varndell - he can't defend >>>??His positioning is a bit wayward and his tackling needs work, but because he's so quick he will always be able to get back into position to make the tackle, and whilst his technique is poor, he doesn't actually miss them. so while there is work to do, he's not ACTUALLY a defensive liability at all.??And, of course, he scores tries like no-one else in the domestic game.? again posted on feb22nd.
Someone made a remark well why was Varndell sent on loan to Bedford, Juggler responded :
<<<< But Varndell- he was loaned to Bedford to bring him down to earth >>>>??Was that the reason???I suppose it must have been. Nothing to do with the fact that Leicester were playing under strength sides in the EDF cup, but wanted to keep Varndell sharp before bringing him back into the side for the HEC games against Munster and Cardiff.?That was also posted on the same day. Interesting to note Varndell was not in the side that lost the HC final to Wasps, i don't know the reason for this and perhaps Juggler if he reads it might furnish the answer, but there is the possibility that the result might have been different.
I can only assume that Ashton reads too many newspapers or is swayed by journalistic opinion to believe such evidence ,but then he did not pick Lawrence Dallagilo because Stephen Jones kept going on about it and happened to button hole him...sorry im a bit of a cynic .
As for not picking JSD because he was prone to injuries, if Ashton did say that ,that is an poor excuse and slightly hypercritical and one i would not buy into ,i can't believe that is the real reason.
Is JSD more prone to injury than Mike Catt or Mike Tindell ? Don't get me wrong Catt showed his worth in the 6 Nations ,when England were flagging he was pivotal in raising moral and bringing that creative spark to the team..but it was a fleeting moment and injury deprived us of his services.
On Tindell , when he last played for England his passing erratic ,yet he escaped the ravaging which was heaped ,unfairly in the direction of Farrell. Why is Ashton pinning his hopes on a player still recovering from injury. Then there is the obvious candidate , for injury , Wilko, not that i am saying exclude him , i merely offer him up as an example that Asthon's statement is nonsense if he said it. I can't think of a player who has been out of action more times than Wilko.
Since Aston has named a 47 man training squad ,with the emphasis on training,as i mentioned in another post ,by kwa444, what difference would it have made to add an extra three players to the training squad and then whittle it down to a 30 man squad? Why cut off your arm before you go into battle ? Ashton has a habit of putting shackles on himself before he has even started as with the case of naming Vickery as Captain ,before the 6 Nations had begun.
Yes I agree with you ,it is good to mix youth with experience, but pick the right experience and the right youth. On his current form for example Josh Lewsey does not merit a place in the squad, Ashton said he would not pick on reputation.
That is why the likes of JSD, who has performed brilliantly for Gloucester and recently for England should be in an extended training squad..if he does not cut it Ashton has lost nothing, the same can be said fro Varndell and Erinle.
As I said on another post these warm up matches ,even if we win them , yes it will boost confidence but it is a false perspective. France are unlikely to field their first team ,Wales will probably field squad as well and they are not SA. We need the speed ,power and creativity of the players i mentioned, otherwise they will not be able to act on the service provided by the forwards.
Its annoying as I think we do have the forwards and backs to progress far but Ashton, seems to be stifling it.
Sorry for long post again

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posted Jun 18, 2007

Your post lasted longer than England will in the WC. It's amazing that Ashton can pick 47 players when other teams are only allowed 15. Is this how England think they might be able to get beyond the group stages?

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posted Jun 18, 2007

goodstarsandstripes: What a wag you are. If I recall it's your national 'football' game that requires rosters of 40+ players to be available for a single game. Now why is that i wonder. I guess it's because they're so full of steroids they can't run for more than about 5 minutes and they were a suite of armour in case they get hurt!

Anyway why don't you do something useful little boy, like play on a busy road or do your homework and leave the rugby chat to people who have at least some knowledge of the game!

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posted Jun 18, 2007

i think it is silly that people are saying that these few extra players should be brought along, i think 47 is large enough already, if he brings JSD, erinle then it could be argued he should have brought smith, sanderson, jones etc etc. there HAS to be a cut off point, he is already going to lose over a third of his squad in the cut before ANY games have been played, why would he make it even more difficult for himself. JSD has a history of illness and unfitness predominantly why he isnt on the tour. yes so do wilko, robinson as well as sheridan tindall and hodgson returning from injury, but these are capped internationals who have a lot of experience and know how to win games, valuable players to our squad wether that be in training or on the pitch and thats exactly what England needs.

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posted Jun 19, 2007

I actually think Sanderson was a little unlucky not to be in this 47. I wouldn't have him close to my 30. Hazell (a better 7) isn't even in that, but in fairness to Sanderson he has had good games in each of the last two summer tours and I'd prefer him over Lund if injuries to come along.

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