you want an independent Cornwall?
against the south west assembly
should our county be run? Have
your say on self-government, a south west assembly, Westminster
and the EU.
How can we preserve our unique culture and move forward in the 21st
you support the aims of Mebyon Kernow for a legislative Cornish
Assembly for self-government within the UK? Or are the present
powers of the County Council sufficient for running Cornwall?
you think greater powers for Cornwall could put off investment
from the rest of the world? Or would a Senedh Kernow, as proposed
by local cross-party campaigners, be more successful in attracting
more investment than the current Regional Development Agency based
Would we be better off as part of a south west assembly or would
we end up being governed by Bristol and Exeter?
you feel Cornish, English, British, or European? Or a combination
of these identities?
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What a load of old cobblers, look around the world and tell
us what has independence done for anyone. Tribalism is rife
and well in Africa and other none civilized countries, why
bring it to dear old England. We have enough tribalism here
because of Socialism and Communism. Everone doesn't want to
be the same and everyone doesn't want to have independence.
Look at Rhodesia, do you really want that mentality here,
and don't say it couldn't happen look at your local govt's.
They're all clammering for handouts from the working poor
and want everyone to be the same. Bollocks... get a life...
I'm no racist nor am I a screaming right winger(Conservative)
but I do believe that at some point someone needs to have
the gonads to stand up and say enuff is enuff.
England used to be the envy of the world for Education and
Manners and decorum and all of the things that made us GREAT,
now we're a land of wannabes and have beens and are sucking
hind tite with the rest of the bleeding hearts. If you want
to have a socialist country, thats fine but dont spend your
lives whining about how you don't have any money and want
independence. With independence comes costs and the costs
that should be placed on an independent country or nation
are extreme. Look before you leap my friends, independence
is only as good as your income per capita.
Michael Smith, Vernal , Utah, USA
Cornish motto One and All is being ignored by Cornish Nationalists
who are about Cornwall for the Cornish. Their level of debate
To put up graffiti on road structures saying 'no invading
To obliterate road signs to Cornish sites with the St. Piran
flag, misused like a Cornish swastika.
To remove the word England from Regional Development Agency
To paint out the word Royal in Royal Cornwall Museum and Royal
These people deface their own County, complain about being
marginalised and then advocate a separatist and isolationist
dogma which is patently unviable.
I live in the west midlands, and I have been reading you article
on Cornwall having its own Assembly. Can anyone give me any
details on how I can find out more on Cornish geneology as
my surname apparently came from somewhere in this part of
Richard, Walsall, west Mids
If you wish to make a difference concerning whether there
is a referendum on a regional assembly in your area then follow
the link: www.local-regions.odpm.gov.uk/consult/regional-assembly/index.htm
and then send your comments to the Deputy Prime Minister’s
Office by following the “soundings” link on the website. You
can do it by e-mail, but your comments must be in by the 3rd
March or you’ll be too late. PhilT,
Cornishman in Oman
BBC are not responsible for the content of external websites
Further reading of the following website: www.regions.odpm.gov.uk/governance/progress/response/01.htm
has shown me that on 24th January 2003 the government published
a soundings paper on the following website:
The intentions of this paper is to determine which regions
will be eligible to hold referendums about establishing an
elected regional assembly. You have until 3rd March to let
your views be heard, after which time the government will
make its decision. So if you are interested in making your
voice heard now is the time to do it. You may never get another
chance. The following is a direct quote from the government
website: “……….The Government has undertaken a specific soundings
exercise, beginning in December 2002, on the level of interest
in each region in holding a referendum on whether to establish
an elected regional assembly. The Government is now taking
soundings on the level of interest in each English region
in holding a referendum about establishing an elected regional
assembly. Views are sought by 3 March 2003….”
PhilT, Cornishman in Oman
The BBC are not responsible for the content
of external websites
Has anyone read the “Summary of the comments and enquiries
received following the publication of the White Paper Governance”
found on the following website; www.regions.odpm.gov.uk/governance/progress/response/01.htm
There are a couple of interesting comments made by
the government relating to the results.
For example, here are some direct quotes from the Office of
the Deputy Prime Minister:
“….The comparatively high number of 'mixed views/undecided'
opinions from the South West is accounted for by those who
stated that they favoured an elected assembly, but wanted
a Cornish assembly rather than a South West one. This opinion
was also supported by those who contributed the 1,595 postcards
supporting the establishment of a Cornish assembly (following
up the 2001 petition claiming 50,000 signatures to the same
“…..In terms of written and emailed responses, Cornwall was
the biggest single issue raised….” “……121 respondents argued
in favour of either a referendum for a Cornish Assembly, or
for setting up an assembly without a referendum - 67 members
of the public and all of the local authorities and interest
groups argued in favour….”
“……Just 8 respondents (all members of the public) were opposed
to any form of Cornish assembly….” All of this “……is in addition
to the 1,595 postcards received as part of the Cornish Constitutional
Campaign for a referendum for a Cornish assembly. Including
all responses received (letters, emails, Cornish postcards
and South East coupons), support for a Cornish assembly was
expressed by 34% of all respondents….”
PhilT, Cornishman in Oman
The BBC are not responsible for the content
of external websites
I can't beleive that you actually think independance for Cornwall
is a) possible or b) worthwhile. If people stopped living
in a dreamland and actually attempted to address the problems
at hand then maybe Cornwall wouldn't be the backward dump
John , Norwich
Adrian: I have always supported the Cornish, but a region
consisting of the other 6 counties would be a disaster. The
Dorset/Hampshire border is a fast growing area and the planning
pressures on it are not exactly relieved by splitting it into
two different regions. The Hampshire/Sussex border, on the
other hand, is mostly greenbelt. Likewise, dividing Swindon
and Bristol from Reading is already creating a bureaucratic
nightmare when it come to planning for the M4 corridor. If
Cornwall gains its independence (or even if it doesn't), the
eastern boundary needs to shift one county to the east.
Nick Xylas, Bristol, Wessex
Thanks Adrian and Nick, that was informative. I think most
of us on this board can agree to two things:
1.Devolution is a Good Thing and
2.The Seven County arangement is a Bad Thing.
So really what it comes down to is the Government implementing
the most popular scheme and not forcing upon us a totally
artificial region 'as designed by the commity'. What is required
now is a plebicite. I would also like to add that I have written
to the site manager of the BBC Somerset forum and he has agreed
to start a "Devolution" board on there, so there can be a
wider debate on this important issue. Thanks again.
Ed, you make a very serious point ... we could indeed lose
the baby with the bathwater.
Cornish Constitutional Convention strategy is to make a
deal with everyone East of the Tamar (the other six Counties
of the Standard Government Region, and the Government in
London) so that Cornwall gets its own Assembly, and the
other Six Counties get one too, if they want that.
might work ... indeed, I hope it does. But as you say, if
it fails, we all lose this once-in-a-lifetime chance to
modernise the way we are governed, and Cornwall's archaic
and dysfunctional place within the British so-called Constitution.
four of the Six Counties did a deal, wonderful! I'd be happy
with any permutation, as long as Cornwall gets what it wants,
needs and deserves, i.e. the Senedh Kernow that is the settled
will of the permanent resident population of this peninsula.
may make this a reality is the commitment in the White Paper
to hold a referendum before any elected Regional Assembly
is established. They need consent. They will not get that
in Cornwall, and seem unlikely to in any Western County
... especially once voters realise they will lose the County
dimension of their identity once the Seven County Monster
becomes a reality.
White Paper fails to recognise the depth of the County identity
within regional politics ... indeed it lacks any grasp of
regional politics other than those of the North East (Prescott's
patch) and London (Raynsford's). None of the civil servants
involved have ever been outside central London or wherever
they sleep as well as work, judging from the way the White
Paper is written. It would fail any 'A'level question asking
for a decent essay on the subject!
So either we will never get any devolution at all, or our
own local bickering will kill off the slim chance that we
just might ... what happens in reality is up to all of us.
am confident that Cornwall will make its own luck, one way
Watts, Flushing, Falmouth
Ed: I was co-author, with David Robins, of a report entitled
The Case For Wessex, in response to the government's white
paper. In it, we supported calls for Cornish independence
and proposed an eastward expansion of the South West government
zone to take in Berkshire, Hampshire and Oxfordshire, with
Buckinghamsire going to the East of England and Kent, Surrey
and Sussex forming a much more natural "South East" region
than the present L-shaped monstrosity. This would have still
left a large region (which we argued should be named Wessex,
after the ancient kingdom that covered this territory - in
fact it even included Cornwall later in its history, but let's
not go there), but one which is much more geographically cohesive
than the present South West goverment zone, the eastward boundary
of which slices through the Cotswolds, the M4 corridor and
the "South Coast Metropole", which stretches from Poole to
Portsmouth. We attracted some flak from people in Devon, who
thought that their county should be given the same status
as Cornwall, though we didn't know that such sentiments existed
in Devon when we wrote the report, due to the lack of an organised
Devon independence movement.
Further to my previous question, I read Mark's message regarding
the Brythonic language in Devon, Somerset and Dorset. Are
there any plans to teach this language in these counties?
If it was what would be the opinion of Cornish people towards
this? Also I would like to know if this was implemented would
it cause "pan-regionalism" across the four Western Counties
or would the situation remain as it is? I don't have any agenda
here, so there's no need to give me a rough time; I'm only
curious! BTW, I'm all in favour of devolution and if Cornwall
wants its own assembly, then good for them! :-)
Can anyone come up with a reasonable alternative to the Seven
County plan, e.g a Cornish Assembly and a seperate South-Western
Assembly, an assembly for Cornwall, Devon and Somerset, e.t.c.,
e.t.c., that reflects the interests of the Westcountry as
a whole rather than those of the Government? If the Government's
plans are rejected will this result in no devolution in the
West at all?
I don't like the title - "nationalism" has been used as
an excuse for some foul deeds in history - but it's the
nearest I can find to saying how much I hate the idea of
the seven-county Region, and how much I think Cornwall should
have its own Assembly.
should we be forced into a "one size fits all" constitution?
I used to live in Spain, formerly a very centralised country,
but now allowing a good deal of devolution, but varying
the degree according to the size and nature of each region.
For example Pais Vasco, the Basque Region, has bi-lingual
signs and even its own distinctive police force, while the
much smaller La Rioja, best known in the UK for its wine,
has less devolved powers.
where I lived, is the size of several sovereign European
nations, and was often in conflict with the Madrid Government
(while I was there it was about pensions) but all seemed
still to regard themselves as Spanish as well.
worked, and I don't see why a similiar system should not
work in the UK. Cornwall would not expect as much autonomy
as Scotland, but would want a lot more the Hertfordshire,
Michael Fisher, Padstow
Not boasting, just putting your prejudiced pal in the picture.
Not immature and snide ‘in crowd’ patois, just looking at
things as objectively as I can.
Not holding my breath as I wait for any logical response.
Not manipulating historical hyperbole, or fostering a ‘them
and us’ culture.
Not preaching an exclusionist agenda as promoted by the ‘foot
in mouth’ man.
Not wavering or even frowning – just groaning and gasping
with astonishment at the antics of the politburo in waiting.
(Thanks to the late Stevie Smith for the poetic inspiration).
(p.s. Tim, my maternal Grandmother was born near Bala, maybe
I am related to the people you were talking to? Also, I am
not ‘poor’, I am not ‘irate’ and I am not ‘your friend’ –
hope this clears everything up for you).
(p.p.s. – The retirement didn’t last long – it’s the irresistible
challenge of corresponding with men in possession of egos’
the size of planets).
There's nothing wrong with the Somerset Levels Bob. :-}
Tim, I am fully aware of what New Labour's intentions are
regarding devolution, but they have not (as far as I know)
officially stated that they intend to abolish the counties.
If that is their plan, then I am sure that we will all be
united against it. You have hit the nail on the head when
you say that the word 'wealh' or 'wealas' referred originally
to the Romans, the key word being 'originally'.
I don't think that anyone honestly believes that the Saxons
thought that the Cornish (or any other Britons) were Romans,
as the word had, by that time, come to refer to anyone regarded
as 'foreigners' by the Germanic tribes. Incidentally, are
Cardiff City supporters really bad enough to be called 'wealas'?
In your reply to Emma, do I detect a note of Cornish isolationism
creeping back into your agenda, i.e. Cornwall needing an eastern
There was naïve old me thinking that you regarded Devonians
as being good neighbours. Merddyn – Much of what you
say makes a lot of sense, but I shouldn't worry too much about
"the Cornish people being cut off from their fellow Celts
in time", as it never happened (despite what the more 'rabid'
members of the Cornish Nationalist brigade would like you
to believe). Your fellow Celts haven't moved house; they are
still there just across the Tamar. You don't need to take
my word for it; just take a look at the latest historical,
archaeological and (most importantly) genetic findings, which
prove that the descendents of the (Celtic) Britons of Devon
(together with those of the rest of the former Kingdom of
Dumnonia) are still in residence.
Bob Burns, Barton-upon-Humber
Well I certainly am glad that Steve has posted his last message
here ... or maybe he'll change his mind! Just for the record,
and to help Steve out, it is of course a fact that the vast
majority of British citizens do identify themselves as English,
even though I and millions of others don't!
That ethnic imbalance is the very reason why the unitary British
constitution has worked so unfairly for its non-English parts
since 1707, hence the Irish question and the West Lothian
question and now the Cornish question.
Blair and most of his party have as much understanding of
constitutional reform as my left boot, epitomised by his approach
to the House of Lords. But at least he allowed Scots and Welsh
devolution to go through, and now this regional effort. Also
for the record, on the question raised by Steve of modern
Australian racism, my great great grandfather was the first
white child born in Western Australia to survive into adulthood.
He very nearly didn't during the wars with Yagan and his people.
And as a result of that bloody experience my ancestor spent
his adult life (into the early 20th century) hunting aborigines
to death for sport. There is no excuse for that, but it is
a fact. So I have made a small contribution to justice for
Yagan and his people, as follows. Yagan's head was cut off
from his body and brought back to Britain by some redcoat
soldier as a trophy after the war with the aboriginals in
the Swan River Colony (early 1830s).
Most of the colonists at the time disapproved of this barbarian
act, but the head ended up in Liverpool museum, and, eventually,
in Everton cemetry. A year or two ago in London I met Ken
Colbung CBE, direct descendant of Yagan. Ken used to break
horses on my cousin's spread in the wheatbelt near Perth.
With some Aussie archaeologists Ken was there lobbying the
Home Office in order to exhume Yagan's head in order to re-unite
it with the rest of his remains, because his spirit couldn't
rest until this happened. So I wrote in support to the Home
Secretary along with others, and eventually a licence was
granted to exhume the head, and so Ken was able to return
with it to Australia and lead a full aboriginal ceremonial
reburial of Yagan's head in its proper place, back down under.
So put that in your pipe and smoke it, Steve Garrett!
Adrian Watts, Flushing, Falmouth
Pam ... are you a Tory or just one of those expatriate Scots
who consistently opposed devolution throughout the 1970s and
1980s? Either way the majority of your compatriots voted in
favour of the new Parliament, and if it's not working as well
as they would like we all know whose responsibility that is.
Adrian Watts, Flushing, Falmouth
Pam - my Scots friends would certainly agree that their
measure of self-governemt is quite inadequate. They would
also agree that they need to cut out theredundant tier of
government - at Westminster.
- Cornwall is one of the oldest territorial divisions in
Europe - read Philip Paynton's history of Cornwall, or indeed
any other authoritative source (anything by John Angarrack
is well worth reading.
- I'm not quite sure what your point is about national affiliation.
And your point about the quality of our representatives
would, if carried to its logical conclusion, lead to the
abolition of democracy and re-establishing the feudal system!
- I agree with you - we need to get moving before it's too
late to do anything. By the way, which particular Swiss
principles would you like to adapt first?
- like all rootless cosmopolitans I feel at ease in a number
of different places, but I don't see why you need to disparage
one place in order to express solidarity with another. Besides,
if facilities in Cornwall are limited we need to ask why.
And I have to say that I find Cornish people (both true
and untrue!), neither worse nor better on the average than
any other lot of human beings. If you're worried about the
way our elected representatives act, the sensible thing
is to vote them out and put in somebody who WILL act the
way you think is right. By the way, how do you define a
- perhaps we need to think in terms of graded steps towards
self-determination, reactivating our constitutional rights
phase by phase? (P.S. Re our irate friend, the other day
I was talking to some people from Tryweryn - I hope he doesn't
boast about connections with Bessie Braddock in the Bala
- the idea of extending the Tamar a few miles to the north
is a very attractive one. To adapt a saying of Harri Webb's,
'What Cornwall needs most is an eastern coast'.
Bob - the fact that the word 'wealh' and its cognates in
other Germanic languages refers originally to the Romans
is accepted by scholars from Wallachia to Wallonia. It derives
from a Gaulish tribe called the Volcæ, who lived on the
Rhine. When the German song 'Wacht am Rhein' says 'Betritt
kein Welscher deinem Strand', it doesn't refer to Cardiff
City supporters (although nobody would attach any blame
if it did).
to New Labour's present 'devolution' plans, please examine
the record in the relevant legislation and Parliamentary
debates. They've made it as plain as a pikestaff that they
have no intention of conceding territorial integrity, let
alone self-government, to Cornwall. Once again, I'm NOT
asking you to take my word for it.
Mike - what steps do you think we should take to improve
our condition NOW? And what issues do you see as priorities?
Cornwall do not be ridiculous !
an expat Scot just take a look north of the border to see
what you would end up with. A parliament which is nothing
more than a very expesive extra tier of government.
think you will find that few Scots are happy with this system.
Learn from others mistakes.
Pam Leitch, Saltash
Let's get the important part out of the way. I agree with
self determination and self government. I just have one
slight beef with the comments made on this message board.
When exactly in history was "Cornwall" ever a country in
it's own right??
Cornish have a proud history and along with other parts
of the British Isles should also be proud that they can
lay claim to being some of the original inhabitants. But
if you go back in history to some of the earliest recorded
events, you find that the area now called Cornwall was actually
within the Kingdom of Dumnonia. This was an area covering
what we now call Cornwall, Devon and the western parts of
as a 'county' came into being much later. Even back in those
earliest days, the Dumnonii were merely a tribe of people
living in a vast country in which everyone was a "Briton"
(yes even the Welsh). Granted they spent most of their time
fighting with each other, but they did not live in separate
separations in the land came much later (after the Romans),
and although the Cornish people were cut off from their
fellow Celts in time, the area was still a Kingdom within
a Country and it was still not yet called "Cornwall".
By the time the name of the county appeared, there was no
longer a Kingdom of Dumnonia ruled by a single person. Self
Government is right and will come through in time. But I
believe we should be proud to be British first and foremost,
rather than argue over the merits of being English, Welsh,
Scots or Cornish.
First correction,to be born in Cornwall does not class you
as English. You only speak a variation of that language
as do many others in these islands. Look at most surveys
that now ask for your ethnic origins. You are all????British
with the/Cornish..Welsh...English...Scots added on. Yes
there is a space for this designation.
to a Cornish assembly you must be joking, look at the mess
that our County assembly is in also one or two of our local
and district councils.
John Hilton, Bodmin
I used to feel that independence for Cornwall was an impossible
and impractible dream. Maybe it still is but I would love
to give it a try.
really feel that successive governments have made a hash
of things and that we should take control of our own destiny
before it is too late. Cornwall is a wonderful place to
live and as one who was born and bred here, I feel that
we should be given the opportunity to self rule.
ask the hoardes of people who have chosen to live here rather
than north of the border (no offence intended Devon). There
are of course numerous problems to be tackled including,
taxation,health,pension rights, defence,the police and the
travel network to mention but a few. However a state based
on the principals in a country such as Switzerland could
possibly be viable.
for investment, I consider that if properly run, Cornwall
could attract massive investment because of its natural
resources and great beauty as a tourist venue. A dream!
Perhaps but better than the nightmare that possibly faces
us as a result of current policies by governments from outside,
regardless of their political persuasion.
I am 22 and I have lived in Truro all my life. When I was
at school I used to go and spend my holiday in Bristol and
London because Cornwall was too boring for me and in the winter
the small Cornish villages are like ghost towns. I am proud
to say my family come from London and My Great-Grandparents
were French. I have to say I find many true Cornish people
very bigoted. I consider my self to be English and never Cornish.
As for the local goverment they have nothing in common with
us youth, that is why in Truro they turn down applications
to build a Pizza Hut or a McDonalds in the City Centre. They
seem intent on stopping Truro from growing into a proper City.
Mike, I accept that Cornwall is a country. I recognise your
pride in being Cornish, and acknowledge your rights as a Cornishman,
and the rights of the Cornish people to self-determination
under international laws signed up to by successive British
Governments. Most of my proper Cornish friends and acquantainces
here in Cornwall feel just as strongly as you do about their
identity and rights as a people.
The Cornish are yet another a nation which has suffered and
continues to suffer political subjection to the point where
its nationhood is firmly and persistently denied by the occupying
power ruling from London (just as Scotland's was for almost
two centuries until 1997). But when I suggest to most of those
Cornish friends of mine that they might think of themselves
as British as well as Cornish some think I mean English as
well as Cornish. I do not believe anyone can be English as
well as Cornish.
But I do believe one can be Cornish AND British, just as many
millions of other Britons are not English but Scots or Welsh
or Irish or Manx Britons (or Cumbrian Britons for all I know,
or Devonian Britons for non-English Devonians ...) But they
DO, as Cornishmen and women expect to be treated as British
citizens when it comes to war and peace, for example, and
to be defended by the British army, the Royal Navy, MI5 and
the state and local police also when it comes to being protected
from terrorist attack.
That is only fair, given our legal status, as Cornish and
non-Cornish residents of Cornwall who have a right to a British
European passport. So by all means argue for Cornwall to be
independent of the UK. I respect that point of view, even
though I don't believe it is likely to be achieved in my lifetime
(another 50 years or so if I'm lucky). May I ask how you think
justice for Cornwall, i.e. independence as you see it, is
going to be achieved before then? Would you settle for a Cornish
Assembly with real powers as part of the UK in the meantime,
as Mebyon Kernow are now willing to?
Adrian Watts, Flushing, Falmouth
Why should we be lumped in with Devon, Somerset and the rest
of the South West when culturally and economically we are
so different? For years we missed out because Devons wealth
counted out our poorness, finally somebody recognises the
problems in Cornwall yet doesn't understand why they have
come about? Come on! We are a county with our own special
music, wrestling, language, folklore, food and 600 year old
Beer. If this doesn't make us special enough to be independant
at least a little bit from the richer, more English counties
to our right then I reckon we should dig up the Tamar a bit
more and make ourselves a proper island. However, any young
person understands that we are not economically strong enough
to stand completely on our own, the fact that most people
go to university outside the county and then never return
is a worrying trend for the counties future. We do need help,
what we don't need is a Nanny state telling us what is the
best for us as they sit in their glass towers in the capitol.
BRIT’, OR THE ‘ANGLISH’ OF BEING ENGLISH? You think you have
me rattled? HMMMMM, really Adrian, I think ‘bored’ is a more
accurate adjective. Don’t worry, this is my very last posting
– I have other things to do. (I can hear the hip, hip hoorays’
all the way from Cardiff, Oman and Falmouth). In one of my
previous postings, I asked just who do you think you are?
I don’t think you really know who you are, do you Adrian?
You say you’re BRITISH and NOT English. You come from Celtic/Antipodean
stock and you were born in the English County of Somerset
- in England. But one thing is absolutely certain YOU ARE
NOT ENGLISH! …… I’d have bet my mortgage on you stating that.
Apparently, you are ‘British’ and not ‘English’ because there
is no English citizenship (tenuous or what?). I bet that ISN’T
the only reason. You don’t like the English do you Adrian?
You use the word ‘English’ as a form of descriptive putdown.
Maybe you think every English soul is some sort of clone of
Maggie Thatcher? You are also perfectly happy to repeat the
mantra - "arrogant English persons from across the Tamar"
etc, etc. Shouldn’t that be "Arrogant BRITISH persons"?
Or does the arrogance stop at Offa’s Dyke and the Cheviots?
Is ‘arrogance’ a condition of being ‘English"? There goes
that ‘stereo! typical tendency’ again Adrian! Getting back
to your parenthood – Welsh and Australian – I really don’t
think the Welsh have citizenship, other than ‘British’ do
they? So, shouldn’t your description be ‘British and Australian’?
It’s just as I suspected of you. Your ethnic view of these
Islands’ goes something like – Cornish is Cornish, Welsh is
Welsh, Scottish is Scottish, Irish is Irish and English is
British! Convenient isn’t it Adrian? What really amazes me
is the Australian connection. Let’s not forget, you’re not
English because ‘they are arrogant, ignorant, imperialists’
etc. However, you are happy to be associated with a Country
that until very recently has vigorously persecuted it’s own
By ‘persecution’ do I also include genocide?……. And even today,
continues to deny basic human rights to its indigenous peoples.
(and let’s not even go into the asylum seekers dumped on Christmas
Island, or the dark double dealing done with Indonesia 40
years ago on the carve up of East Timor). But that is obviously
OK, because your average white Australian is not English.
Please also note that I did not ask whether you were an English
citizen – I just asked whether you were English!!
You quote endless diatribes on persecution of the Cornish
a thousand years and ‘more recently’ 500 years ago. But ethnic
cleansing down under? Even in the mid 20th century, taking
native aboriginal babies away from their mothers and placing
them with white adoption agencies etc, well that is ‘perfectly
understandable’ isn’t it Adrian?
Your oft - repeated ramblings that I have been offensive to
the Cornish people are a total joke! I have only ever posted
on this site as a reaction to pomposity or downright mischievous
machinations! It is where I came in – a holiday in Cornwall,
it’s one thing to want self - determination, but it is quite
another to breed a hate and blame culture to popularise it!
I am (was) a very frequent visitor to Cornwall, but the last
time I went it was different, there was a lot of anti – English
What you have to ask yourself Adrian is whether I, (and others)
really want to put up with that in the future? You probably
know the answer. It’s REALLY easy for some unfortunate ‘hard
done by soul’ to blame everything and everyone …… I was merely
highlighting ‘it just ain’t so’. For example, when someone
on the site says ‘If only we had control over our fishing
and farming everything would be ok’ or ‘If we were independent,
we could reopen our tin mines’.
I have merely pointed out that Europe set the pace for fish
and farm - the only way to get back control is to exit the
E.C! (I also pointed out that some Cornish fishermen had sold
their quotas’ to Spanish competitors) – And tin prices are
set Globally – a Cornish miner is in competition with a South
American third World tin miner. When John Bennetts complained
about house prices in Cornwall ‘going through the roof’ I
simply pointed out that we live in a free market economy.
Local Cornish people can sell to whoever they like can’t they?
And by the looks of it they are as greedy as the rest of us
– ie selling for as much as they can get. I also pointed out
that ! it is happening all over the Country, Cornwall was
not unique, (A very reasoned point, I thought). If you want
confirmation, please browse the back postings. You say that
I have carefully edited the extracts from your previous postings,
possibly to give a false impression? Naw, you really are as
boorish as that, Adrian. There is a wealth of stuff to choose
from, I thought I was being tastefully minimalist.
For example, I was also going to include the ‘English Heritage
signage equals Nazi branding’ episode – but on reflection,
I thought it was just too bizarre and embarrassing to contemplate.
And you credit other people with getting the intro’ to this
site changed – thanks very much, I am one of them! And Adrian,
please do not lecture me on your road to Damascus – and how
you stopped being one of ‘them’ (calling yourself English?)
because of Margaret Thatcher. There was also, by inference
a little dig at my ‘fascist editing techniques’.
Unfortunately, Adrian you are very wrong – my Grandfather
was a very well known political figure, he was close friends
with people like Ernie Bevin and Eric Blair, (indeed, Blair
stayed at my Grandfather’s house whilst he was researching
his book ‘The Road to Wigan Pier’). During his later years
he was the political agent for Labour MP Bessie Braddock .
So my political pedigree has always been, (and continues to
be) left of centre. AND FINALLY ……. In your last posting you
described how Geoffrey Howe had ‘Body Language’. BODY LANGUAGE
– GEOFFREY HOWE? Now that really is an oxymoronic statement
if ever I heard one.
Steve Garrett, Lancashire, England.
In his response to Pete's well thought out post, Tim refers
to the Government White Paper, and interprets it as meaning
that Cornwall would be legislated out of existence. It doesn't
actually state this, although it does imply that local government
would be reduced by one tier if the Government defined regions
were to be accepted by the electorate. I am sure that any
suggestion that Cornwall (or Devon, or Somerset, or Dorset
– to accommodate Mark's alternative proposal) should
be legislated out of existence would be greeted by a massive
Even in the days of Dumnonia, the Kingdom was divided into
separate districts of Kerniew, Dyfneint and Glastenig (being
the equivalents of modern Cornwall, Devon and West Somerset.
I am not quite sure what point Tim is trying to make when
he says that the Germanic tribes referred to the inhabitants
of the Roman Empire as 'wealas'.
This is undoubtedly correct, as they would have referred to
any people who were not 'Germanic' as 'wealas' (or foreigners),
but to extrapolate this to infer that the Anglo-Saxons regarded
the Cornish as being Romans is surely not logical. Adrian's
response to Mark, states that the Government is offering only
one choice, i.e. Seven Counties or Seven Counties. This is
not the case as, if the Seven County proposal is firmly rejected
(as I believe and hope it will be), then the current status
quo will prevail. Although this is not what people ultimately
want, it at least provides the opportunity to mount active
campaigns for the 'Regions', which we do want.
Incidentally, in a post on the Devon Devolution board, Nick
Xylas (of the Wessex Society) has pointed out that while the
provisions of the Regional Development Agencies Act of 1998
permit the Secretary of State to amend (the proposed) regional
boundaries by statutory instrument, the number of regions
has to remain the same. It would seem therefore, that this
Act would either have to be amended or repealed to enable
any of the South West Counties to become Regions in their
The task is therefore harder than some may think. But if Nick
Xylas thin! ks that by highlighting this obstacle, he can
persuade either Devon (or Cornwall) to join his Wessex Regional
Movement, then he had better think again. For Adrian to claim
that the four South Western Counties have never done anything
together, since the Monmouth Rebellion, is only true if one
only considers rebellions (as there were no rebellions after
the Monmouth Rebellion). There have however been many areas
of more peaceful cooperation since then.
Adrian should also be cautious when describing Cornwall as
being unique within the UK. Whilst this again is undoubtedly
true, it is also meaningless, as I could describe Devon as
being unique, in being the only county in Britain with two
coastlines, or I could claim that my house is unique, because
it is the only one on that particular piece of land; all true
but all meaningless. I would be very interested if Mike Champion
could present us with his historical references when claiming
that Cornwall was "forced to become a Duchy, under military
threat". He may well be "Cornish and proud of it" (and good
luck to him), but there is no need to justify it with inaccurate
Bob Burns, Barton-upon-Humber
fact: cornwall is a country. forced to become a duchy, under
military threat. our people are brainwashed into thinking
they are english. genocide takes many forms. cornwall should
have it's own government, seperate to the westminster one.
it is our right. all this info is readily available today
and cannot be doubted. i say justice for cornwall and the
cornish people. i am cornish and proud of it.
mike champion, camborne
Pete - an excellent contribution: Thank you! Mark: You ask
why can't the four Counties of Cornwall, Devon, Somerset and
Dorset form a region?
The answer is because they never have and probably never will
simply because they are politically quite disparate. They
are, simply, not a region in the sense argued either in the
Government White Paper or by the Constitutional Conventions
of either Cornwall or the English South West (the latter being
apparently a Labour party front echoing the Government Office
line). There is huge momentum in Cornwall for change.
The Government is only offering one choice, currently, Seven
Counties or Seven Counties. You can choose your Region as
long as it consists of Seven Counties. Otherwise there is
no choice. I would love to believe I might be wrong about
that, but I remain to be convinced. I can't see the political
establishments of any of the four counties you mention doing
anything effective to make sure they create a Four County
They have never done anything together since the Monmouth
Rebellion, as far as I can tell, and look what happened to
those who participated in that! Certainly in Cornwall there
is no support for such an idea, so forget it! But there is
huge political support here for some kind of devolution to
Cornwall, and huge hostility to being run from Bristol. And
that is simply a reflection of physical geography and political,
social and economic realities on the ground and across the
various waters that define Cornwall and make us a special
case, unique within the UK and Europe.
Adrian Watts, Flushing, Falmouth
to talk index
Pete - your wish to belong to both camps is fair enough as
far as it goes. Unfortunately, not all the people we're dealing
with are as fair-minded as you are. While it's true that identity
is a fuzzy concept, unlike the definitions of the natural
sciences, they DO exist and it's wrong for powerful identities
to use their strength to eradicate the less powerful. The
only partnership England is offering us now is that between
the steak and the diner!
There's no need to worry about isolationism - we can leave
that to certain of our neighbours who want to behave as if
there were nobody but them on this island, to opt out of Europe,
and retreat into a glorious dream of the past. It's not us
who cretaed the 'them and us' situation, but it's down to
us to put it right.
We can only become a viable and prosperous part of the UK
and Europe if we take responsibility for our own destiny and
make our own contacts internationally. You need to look past
the spin and the downright! lies and examine carefully what
they're actually doing. Look at the White Paper, look at Hansard,
look at statemments by 'Two-Jabs' Prescott and by Blair's
mouthpiece Candida Athelstan. They've stated quite clearly
that it doesn't matter what we want or what we say: they know
what's best for us, and that best is to be legislated out
As you say, the Cornish petition has shown overwhelming report
for a consultation, and Dr. Sandham's report reinforce the
Cornish case. The only problem is, Pete - that the British
Government simply refuse to listen. Your point about language
is interesting, but the word 'wealas' is more specific than
'foreigner'. There are related words in many Germanic languages,
and it was used by the early barbarians to denote the inhabitants
of the Roman Empire. Therefore 'Cornwall' means something
like 'the Romans living on the horn of the land'.
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