He says, she says
So here are some thoughts on dialogue, which are more a meditation than a structured article.
In essence, the purpose of dramatic dialogue is to advance plot and illuminate character. In a comedy, dialogue should also be funny. Audience sitcom demands that it should be laugh-out-loud funny several times a page. Non-audience sitcom needs to maintain a level of funniness, and while one expects laughter, the frequency of laugh lines can be less. (If a non-audience sitcom is incessantly hilarious, then it should probably be made with an audience).
In thinking about the basic elements of comedy as the college scheme progresses, I find it impossible to avoid falling back on tradition, and the traditional view of dialogue is that every line should advance the story, just as every scene should have a point. In her talk to the last workshop, Susan Nickson cited John Sullivan as saying that if a show over-runs, cut the jokes, not the story. So it's worth considering the difference between funny lines and jokes.
At a commissioning meeting, discussing a script that I'm developing, I was told that there were too many jokes. This seemed a rather odd note for an audience sitcom, but what the comment meant was that there were too many obvious 'jokes', designed to get a laugh, rather than funny lines which would make an audience laugh, be true to the characters, and advance or comment on the story.
It should be absolutely clear in a script which character is speaking (there's an old reader's trick of blocking out character names and seeing if one can work out who is who from dialogue alone). Many new writers haven't quite mastered the art of different voices, so it feels that every character is speaking in the writer's voice, and that the characters have not been defined clearly enough. They are pawns rather than people.
Good dialogue is economical, with not a word wasted, and while dialogue should obviously convey information, it should be information with attitude rather than information alone. People telling each other stuff is dull, and people telling each other stuff that they should already know is just bad. Attitude is crucial.
The novelist Anthony Powell felt that one of the keys to avoiding the exposition trap was that questions should never be answered directly, which is a handy tip.
Clear characterisation leads to clear voices which allows actors to understand, and even add to, what they are being asked to play. Workshopping a script with a well-known actress was a tedious experience since she wanted to keep trying accents. The reason wasn't because the actress was being a diva, but because she couldn't grasp the character from the writing. When actors understand, they sell the words, even though they may not deliver them the way the writer heard them. But that's another story.
I think a useful thing to do - because I think it's very useful for people to analyse for themselves how things work - is to take a show that you like and that has worked for an audience - and examine the mechanism. Think about how characters have different voices, look at attitude, look at where the laugh lines come and look at how dialogue works with action and the physical.
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~29~RS~)
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I also recently wrote quite a bit of guidelines about writing good dialogs. These tips may be useful additions to it. I hope you will go through this:
http://cutewriting.blogspot.com/2008/07/ten-tips-to-write-killer-dialogs.html
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this is nice and informative and i thank you for it... unfortunately i have a script sitting in the beeb's writers room that i now believe they're going to wipe they're bums on... damn.
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Interesting stuff Micheal. Cheers.
I suppose you've got to keep the structure of the story (Beginning, middle and end) They say show don't tell...dialogue can give insight and back story into a character. I often watch the first episode of Fools & Horses or Pilot to Vicar of Dibley, there masterclasses. I think the mistake I've made is not having a clear vision of the characters and how they talk...tends to look like its just written for the page and no witty interaction.
All the best,
Nick
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I actually feel a lot of mediocre sitcoms don't try hard enough to make the audience laugh. There should be as many jokes crammed in there as you can. If it's good enough for Police Squad it's good enough for you, my friend.
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Personally I think it's always best to write dialogue with your right foot behind your left ear. It gives it a certain something and a naturalistic effect that is otherwise difficult to achieve.
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I often wonder too, when an editor gets hold of one of my scripts, and they're all set in Lancashire, it wouldn't ring true...or and perhaps not funny, in a posh southern accent which would be in the editor's mind as she/he read.
There are loads of different ways to say 'good morning' for instance, so a whole script, well......
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@Michael
Interesting you should mention John Sullivan cutting jokes instead of story, because he did write some cracking stories. And one of the things I miss in modern comedy is good storytelling. Very few shows nowadays seem able to spin a good yarn.
On the original point of dialogue, I think some of the most succesful writers have very distinctive styles, so that you know the script is by them just by hearing their characters talk.
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Hello new faces. Welcome. I sense the beginning of a revolutionary group if we could only attract Trostky.
@Lenin
Thanks for the link.
@Cpickwell
Don't give up hope.
@Stargazer7
The Cheers pilot is well worth looking at.
@Bloofs
Maybe mediocre sitcoms try too hard to make the audience laugh without involving them with the characters and the story.
@Arniespoons
As long as your left ear isn't made of tin.
@Juggles
I never read a script with a particular accent in mind, unless a specific location or mode of speech is indicated. If a show is set in Manchester, I expect at least some of the characters to sound Mancunian. If you specify where your story is taking place, that helps the reader.
@Aspie
I'm with you on the importance of story. And I'm always very enthusiastic about writers whose voices are distinctive. I'm developing stuff with a couple of so far unbroadcast writers whose voices are very clear and unique, which is exciting.
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MJ it depends on the kind of sitcom you are talking about. Some of the more surreal sitcoms don't have to focus as much on character. 95% of the time good characters make a sitcom, but not always.
You didn't address the Police Squad example, maybe you aren't a fan? Some of the greatest sitcoms have very little story, usually because the characters carry them through. Early Seinfeld was an example of a sitcom which tried not to have stories, this changed as the show progressed, but there was a conscious attempt to jettison 'stories'.
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It seems to me that most aspiring comedy writers target their work at TV, but folk could learn much from some of the best radio sitcoms of the past.
There is a different focus when it comes to writing comedy for radio - aside from the obvious, ie that the characters must be strongly defined and there must be good solid story arc, a radio writer has to work much harder with the dialogue so that the audience imagines comic situations rather than being able to see them.
It's more of a challenge, IMHO, to write comic dialogue for the radio but also more liberating (and a darn sight cheaper. ) I also think that the gulf between TV and radio sitcoms is getting wider in terms of expectation and subject matter. Maybe that's why some of the recent quality radio sitcoms didn't translate that well to TV - I'm thinking Absolute Power and Trevor's World of Sport, which should have been better left in their natural home of radio.
I'm also a fan of Claire in the Community, which is a sterling example of writing good funny sitcom with a large'ish cast of characters but all speaking with their own distinctive voice.
And the greatest radio sitcom of all - Andy Hamilton's Old Harry's Game. You can almost smell the sulphur! (And I don't just mean Mr M's socks...)
Mrs M
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@Mrs M
Trevor's World of Sport was on TV first, then transferred to radio after the BBC treated it so badly.
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@Bloofs
I really like shows stuffed with silly gags, but in the UK they seem to work better on radio than TV. I like Police Squad, but I'm not sure a show in that style would work on the BBC, given that our 'half hours' are around 10 minutes longer than American 'half hours', and the tone could become a bit wearying.
When I talk about story I don't mean massive plotting, but I still want to see a funny resolution to a tale.
@MrsM
The radio/TV thing is interesting, since the most successful transfers - The League of Gentlemen, Goodness Gracious Me and Little Britain for example - are non-narrative shows. Going right back, The Goon Show was great radio but not very good TV. On the other hand, Hancock transferred brilliantly, though that was very much a star vehicle. As with US attempts to redo British shows, I think narrative transfers should involve a major rethink for a different medium.
Old Harry's Game is brilliant.
Incidentally, Jose might be amused by this. What does THFC stand for? Tottenham Heading for the Championship.
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I think you are spot on about attitude Micheal. Perhaps you could expand on this because I believe it is the real key to nailing character and subsequently voice.
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I'm not sure Police Squad even worked that well in America since it was cancelled after only six episodes.
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@Aspie,
Are you sure? I thought Trevor started out on R4, then transferred to TV where it was so shoddily treated, as you rightly say, and only then returned to R4 in majestic triumph.
But I could be wrong.
@Micheal,
Mr M is convinced that the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse are indeed circling above White Hart Lane. Oh dear...
Mrs M
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Micheal, I enjoyed your advice but I don't believe this traditional theory that every line of dialogue should have to advance the story.
There is nothing wrong with a bit of flab and waffle in a script. One of my favourite sitcoms (EARLY DOORS) is a perfect example: When the two coppers arrive in each episode they rarely push the story forward. They are just employed to have 'chats'. And they were absolutely hilarious. For me, they are still one of the comedy highlights of the last 5 years.
So let's not get bogged down with dull rules. There is always be room for comedy busking.
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@MisterP
Attitude...
Here's a bit of dialogue:
Micheal: Where have you been?
Marc: To the shop.
Micheal: What did you get?
Marc: Shoes.
So that's just a dull q&a, with no indication of either character's attitude. This is a bit livelier.
Micheal: You've been out for ages.
Marc: I got seduced by Birkenstock.
Micheal: How many shoes do you need?
Marc: They're having a sale.
So in that version, Micheal is accusatory and Marc is defensive, plus Micheal asks a question which Marc doesn't answer. Micheal feels a bit moany, mean and possessive, while Marc feels a bit guilty but is asserting his freedom while trying to avoid a row.
Could do with a joke, though!
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@LDCurb
If a show has small plots, like Early Doors, then there's room for waffle. If a show is quite plotty, like My Family, then there's less room for waffle. The cleverness of Curb is that what might feel like waffle turns out to be germane.
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I quite like it when character's have really distinctive or idiosyncratic ways of speaking, which you don't often get in naturalistic comedy. Blackadder was full of these type of characters although my own personal favourite is Tom Chance from Chance in a Million. Even now, twenty odd years later, the weird way he spoke still lingers in my mind.
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That's a good example Micheal. I also think it useful to think in terms of the character's personality in terms of attitude to really delineate voices. When asked how to make voices distinct (in Drama obviously) I usually cite this exchange in EE.
GRANT: Oi Nina, give us a pint.
NINA: And what's the magic word?
GRANT: Lager.
So for me attitude is all about a character's take on the world and how he or she sees themselves in it. It's not so much the words themselves, it's the attitudes behind them - which of course is all tied up with subtext.
Micheal: You've been out for ages.
Marc: I got seduced by Birkenstock.
Micheal: How many shoes do you need?
Marc: One for each foot.
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@MisterP
Nice!
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"I like Police Squad, but I'm not sure a show in that style would work on the BBC, given that our 'half hours' are around 10 minutes longer than American 'half hours', and the tone could become a bit wearying."
I knew someone would bring up the fact that Police Squad only lasted 6 eps!
The movies and Naked Gun etc prove this style of comedy can be consistently funny for 90 minutes, let alone 30.
Another example: didn't Steptoe and Son often have a paucity of story?
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"Micheal, I enjoyed your advice but I don't believe this traditional theory that every line of dialogue should have to advance the story."
_Yeah, again sorry to mention Seinfeld, but that sitcom is full of conversations that go nowhere. There's a scene in one show where the characters just chew gum for like 60 whole seconds while saying nothing. In context it's very funny.
Cue a lot of responses about how Seinfeld works in the USA and not over here..... ;-)
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"The cleverness of Curb is that what might feel like waffle turns out to be germane"
-I thought Curb's dialogue was improvised?
Sorry for posting 3 time sin a row but I can't edit posts afterwards.
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@Bloofs
Yes, Curb is improvised, but within a framework, so that people know what needs to happen in a scene.
Irrespective of how popular Seinfeld was here (not very), it's a style of show that hasn't been widely replicated, as was the case with It's Garry Shandling's Show.
Stuff I say here is intended to be generally applicable, but there are always going to be particular exceptions.
Steptoe was a ground-breaking sit-trag, but times have changed.
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@Bloofs
IMO, those Naked Gun movies can get a bit wearing after a bit. They're funny but kind of relentless. And they also paved the way for all these excrable Disaster Movie and Scary Movie franchises.
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Seinfeld is brilliant and every episode has a story.
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@MisterP
One for each episode, then!
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the two cops in Last Of The Summer Wine are hilarious too and they don't further the story
I love those cops
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@Micheal,
I have the first and second seasons scripts pulled out and on my desk again. They're a great read. Gershwin not Mahler.
:)
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@MJ
Well, to me Seinfeld was the greatest sitcom ever. It's debatable as to why Seinfeld didn't do very well over here, but BBC scheduling never helped. The DVDs have sold well here so that may be a clue as to who is to blame. I know Seinfeld is very popular in many other countries not only the USA. I think it was voted 2nd greatest sitcom ever after the Phil Silvers show?
There are indeed plenty of exceptions, the shows which don't rely too much on story are often the ones which stand out from the mediocre pap we see so much of, like My Family.
To be fair Seinfeld was famous for its multiple story threads which came together for the 'punchline' at the end, but initially the show was originally intended to be 'about nothing' and some of its best character moments come from abandoning the impetus to 'drive the story forward.' It's comedy genius.
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"Irrespective of how popular Seinfeld was here (not very), it's a style of show that hasn't been widely replicated, as was the case with It's Garry Shandling's Show. "
-But does that indicate anything? It may be because no-one else *can* match it's style. I don't think that's an inditement of its quality.
Surely replicating styles is a sign of a lack of originality anyway?
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@ Bloofs, your argument, if I can paraphrase, seems to be that Micheal produces mediocre pap and the show you like is the bestest ever in the world.
Seinfeld is certainly one of my favourite sitcoms but your style of deconstruction doesn't seem to be progressing the debate enormously.
Do you write stuff yourself or are you just a fan?
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@Mister P
Does somebody being a writer as well make their opinions less or more valid?
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@Aspieboy
Within the context of this being a writersroom blog and the fact that Micheal J is discussing the 'craft' of writing then being a writer is more valid. At the pub - being a writer with your opinions is less valid. Unless it is me of course.
:)
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Opinions re craft I mean, obviously. Not whether this show is better than that one.
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Anyway, I've given up writing for good, I'll look for some patterns now to knit teacosies
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I gave up writing for good a long time ago, now I write for evil.
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Yes, we've all seen your Holby City script. ;)
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@AspieBoy
Oooh!
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A hit, sir! A palpable hit.
:)
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@Bloofs
Some sitcoms take a different approach to the form, through breaking the fourth wall (Shandling), through employing story threads rather than a main plot and sub-plots (Friends), but the essentials of half hour narrative comedy are a)narrative, and b)funny dialogue.
Since the key to successful comedy is a voice/style/take on the world, then replicating someone else's isn't really going to work, and that wasn't what I was suggesting.
Indeed, I've lost count of the scripts I've been sent which seek to reproduce Arrested Development or Curb Your Enthusiasm, not to mention The Office. The style should suit the voice.
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@Aspie
Now now. For a moment there it was like listening to Mr M take a swipe at Mr Wenger.
Re everyone's comments above about the greatness of Seinfeld, I must confess to being a Seinfeld virgin. I've never seen the show, never read a script of the show.
But I have now done something to rectify that situation and found some online scripts, eg Soup Nazi, which is very funny, simple yet beautifully constructed. Clear story strands running through the script and instantly recognisable characters. American writers seem to be able to write this kind of comedy so brilliantly (also Cheers, Friends and Frasier) yet we don't seem to manage our own home grown versions very well. The nearest recent attempt was Jack Dee's Lead Balloon, which came close (it made me laugh out loud at times) but maybe not close enough.
(Psst. Don't tell anyone but I think I might just take Soup Nazi, substitute my name at the top and submit it as an entry in the next BBC sitcom competition. Will anyone notice?)
Mrs M
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Sunshine is a good example of how a script should be...even though it was comedy/drama.
What a fabulous story, but then again Craig Cash is able to write/produce his own work and film it with his own company.
Nevertheless, it was superb television.
There should be more of that calibre
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@MrsM
A story did the rounds a year or two back that someone took an episode of Friends, changed the character names, Anglicised the spelling and submitted it to a production company, which wanted to commission it. Schadenfreude is tempered with the feeling that it might have been me.
@Juggles
Glad you enjoyed Sunshine. It's always nice to find a show that makes one happy.
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With reference to the Friends story, something similar happen a few years back in publishing. Somebody submitted Jane Austen manuscripts to various publishers, pretending it was their own work. All got rejected.
On the subject of people trying to reproduce other shows, that goes on a lot. It's hard not to watch Roman's Empire and The Robinsons and not see them as immitations of Arrested Development. Going back a few years, Rhona and Small Potatoes both tried to do a British Seinfeld. Lead Balloon clearly owes a debt to Curb Your Enthusiasm, but it soon developed it's own distinct character.
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@Aspie
Course, when Jane Austen was writing her novels were contemporary; now they're historical.
I think it's fair to say the market's changed, so I don't see it as being a necessarily bad thing that they got rejected.
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Fair enough. Although good writing's good writing, whether it was written yesterday or two hundred years ago.
On the broader subject of plagarism, I'm suprised it doesn't happen more often. Not with Friends, that seemed destined to be discovered. But I'm sure if somebody tarted up an old Sykes or Comrade Dad script it would be infinitely harder to spot.
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Micheal, that's a good point you made about the waffle on Early Doors/My Family.
The two sitcoms, however, could not be more different. I can't imagine many viewers enjoying both of these comedies. Most people like their comedy either natural or broad. But we all know natural is far superior!
The story about someone taking a Friends script and changing the names etc is actually true. The article appeared in a magazine called Comedy Review in the mid-90s (I've still got it somewhere). The journalist sent it to about a dozen companies. It got some mixed reviews! Most of them enjoyed it but didn't take it any further. Incredibly, only two realised it was a sham. It's a fascinating read.
One other thing. You receive 1000s of unsolicited scripts every year, but what are the most popular premises at the moment? You've probably spoken about this on another blog but I can't recall it. Thanks.
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The most popular premises at the BBC apparently are at TV Centre - as they have just been given a Grade ll listing which means they can't just be sold off for development.
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Although Mister P's joking, I find some BBC building's strangely beautiful. That concrete donut at Television Centre being one of them. It's certainly got more charm than White City.
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@Aspie/Mister P
As I understand it, English Heritage has recommended listing the historic parts of Television Centre, but I hadn't heard the government response. I feel excited every time I walk into the complex, and part of a continuum of broadcasting, feelings impossible to replicate in the more modern buildings up the road.
@LDCurb
I don't actually deal with unsolicited scripts or see all that many, but most of those that I come across seem to feature a group of people in their twenties sharing a house and doing wacky things. Avoid!
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"@ Bloofs, your argument, if I can paraphrase, seems to be that Micheal produces mediocre pap and the show you like is the bestest ever in the world.
Seinfeld is certainly one of my favourite sitcoms but your style of deconstruction doesn't seem to be progressing the debate enormously.
Do you write stuff yourself or are you just a fan"
-------------------------------------------------
-My status is neither here nor there. In other words: none of yer beeswax.
I was unaware, when I made my last comment, that MJ was involved in My Family - it wasn't specifically to have a go at him, it was the first sitcom I could think of which I find dull. The other was Two Pints, sadly!
I doubt I could write a decent episode of My Family OR Two Pints, but I still think stuff like Seinfeld, Alan Partridge etc is far superior. To be fair these are more cynical sitcoms rather than the more heartwarming soapy-style sitcoms.
I do think it's interesting that Seinfeld (which was phenomenally popular in the US) is both an irony-driven show and quite a cynical one when the popular perception of US sitcoms (say MASH) is that they must be touchy-feely.
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There was a story going about years ago, that someone took the Casablanca script, called it Everyone Goes To Ricks and sent it round the studios. Of course, it was rejected.
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@bloofs
It's a writersroom blog not a fanzine site. If you don't write fine, but understand, if you will, how your opinions are taken. It's fair enough you didn't understand MJ was involved in My Family but you didn't say it was dull you said it was mediocre pap... which kind of attitude was the whole point of the thread to start with. Perhaps read the thread from the start and you will see how your late entry was a tad misjudged. Or if you think My Family truly is mediocre pap walk us though a little more cogently why. I can't help you here - I really liked Orrible as well.
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@Bloofs
I never expect shows I'm involved with to be universally loved, and the two you mention are the most successful and long-running British sitcoms (apart, of course, from Last of the Summer Wine).
Comedy fans don't form a single group with one particular taste, so it's good to have a - forgive me - smorgasbord.
@MisterP
Ah, 'orrible of 'appy memory.
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@Bloofs
MASH was a fantastic show, and not in any way "touchy feely". It was angry and cynical about war, and as relevant today as when it first went out.
I agree with you that Seinfeld was a great show, but it's far from the only great American sitcom there's been. There's also Cheers, Frasier, The Simpsons, Arrested Development, Family Guy, American Dad, 30 Rock, Friends, Bilko and Larry Sanders to name but a few.
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"It's a writersroom blog not a fanzine site. If you don't write fine, but understand, if you will, how your opinions are taken. It's fair enough you didn't understand MJ was involved in My Family but you didn't say it was dull you said it was mediocre pap... which kind of attitude was the whole point of the thread to start with. Perhaps read the thread from the start and you will see how your late entry was a tad misjudged. Or if you think My Family truly is mediocre pap walk us though a little more cogently why. I can't help you here - I really liked Orrible as well."
******************************
-There's no apparent rule that I can see written anywhere on this blog saying you *have* to be a writer to post here. And how do you quantify 'writer' anyway? And maybe I am one...
So sue me. I *do* think My Family is mediocre pap, and worse, and I'm happy to repeat that. I don't retract my comments about My Family, I was just pointing out the fact that I didn't pick on that specifically to offend MJ. Have to say though, that just because something's long running doesn't account for its quality. Cliff Richard's a case in point.
You like 'Orrible ? Um, OK.... [backs away slowly].
Aspieboy:
MASH veered from cynical to maudlin. This is parodied in an episode of Futurama when a surgery robot operating on a wounded soldier in a MASH-a-like hospital has a switch that clicks him between wacky humour, to despairing about war. There's the touchy feely right there.
I like MASH, but the point I was making that in MASH there was a sentimental element and 'learning about life and war' - nothing wrong with that, but I think many people associate this sort of comedy as essential to US-success where the characters are funny, but also learn important life lessons. Seinfeld had a deliberate policy of 'no hugs, no learning' - it's a policy as MJ says which hasn't been widely copied.
Hugs n' Learning shows in the US include: Cheers, Frasier, Simpsons, Friends (definitely). These shows have their cynical moments but also some nice ones.
In your list the only shows which come close to Seinfeld is Bilko, Larry Sanders, Simpsons and maybe Frasier (altho Frasier is quite hugs' n' learnin' sometimes). American Dad is awful, and Family Guy is often pretty weak. But yeah, y'know, like whatever....
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@Bloofs
Out of interest, are you a writer, broadcast or otherwise?
Just wondered.....
Mrs M
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mrs-m
Does it matter?
Bloofs
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I don't regard My Family as mediocre, I think it is a 'middle-class' type sitcom, the format of which has been with the beeb for decades...a safe one.
The acting/directing/camera etc are superb but I have only belly-laughed at one of the eps. I do watch and enjoy it but it's not hilarious, more of a gentle, chuckle humour.
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@Bloofs,
Um, is that a yes or a no, hun?
Mrs M
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@Bloofs
There may not have been any hugs in Seinfeld, but there was certainly learning. If only things like George learning that sleeping under your desk at work can have dire consequences. And Kramer learning that owning a stretch of highway is a lot of hard work!
Also, I like some of the more emotional moments in sitcoms. I like when Frasier and his dad have an awkward bonding moment, or Delboy sacrifices something to save Rodney or Uncle Albert. It's nice.
I think a world in which we only had hardbitten cynical sitcoms would be a pretty bleak one.
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Well, we all have shows that we like, can take or leave, or actively dislike. Sir Cliff may divide opinion, but anyone with a 50 year career must be doing something right, and any British show that racks up 100 episodes must be pleasing people.
It's a given on this blog that not everyone is going to like everything, and the intention is to keep people up to date on college matters, and to talk about the technical side of comedy writing.
If I had created a show which ran for 100 episodes, I would be happy and proud to have entertained audiences and made them laugh.
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"and any British show that racks up 100 episodes must be pleasing people."
-Many people will just watch whatever's on BBC1 or ITV1 without discriminating much, though. My dear old dad will watch almost anything as long as it's BBC1 or ITV1. He certainly won't switch off the box, sadly.
Take The Office - it was moved to BBC1 because the Beeb thought it could get a bigger audience. Which it did. Why didn't they just expect this potential audience to find it on BBC2? Because some people just won't bother watching BBC2.
Also, Gervais didn't want to continue making it, so it finished. Longevity isn't always about quality, other factors come into play. The audience demand was there, but Gervais' demand, er, wasn't.
The fact that so many writers / wannabe writers criticise My Fam and Two Pints isn't just bitterness or snobbery (although there's a healthy dollop of those two things) it's also driven by a belief that there can be better sitcoms out there that the mass market can appreciate. The Office was one example.
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"Also, I like some of the more emotional moments in sitcoms. I like when Frasier and his dad have an awkward bonding moment, or Delboy sacrifices something to save Rodney or Uncle Albert. It's nice.
I think a world in which we only had hardbitten cynical sitcoms would be a pretty bleak one."
-That's true, Asp. And it would be a shame if all sitcoms were based on the antics of a nuclear family or a bunch of twentysomethings, as well. Or rather, if most of the prominent places in the schedules and continual recomissioning were given to such sitcoms. ;-)
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John Prescott's prog last night was hilarious, it should be advertised as a comedy.....brill
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@Bloofs
Your comment about many people watching 'whatever's on BBC or ITV without discriminating much' really has to take the biscuit for the most sweeping generalisation of the year.
I think we've established that you don't like My Family and you don't like Two Pints but you've yet to post a convincing analysis as to why, other than you just don't like them.
Worse, you fall ino the trap of taking the proverbial out of those who do. Your comment that it's ok to criticise these sitcoms because there must be 'better sitcoms out there that the mass market can appreciate' is breathtakingly snotty and implying that the public must be complete idiots and culturally unsophisticted.
Surely, in a democratic world, the point of the sitcom writer and commissioners is to offer as wide a range of comedy to the viewing public as possible? And then let them decide which one they want to watch.
Mrs M
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@MrsM
Despite your unfortunate domestic affiliation, you speak good sense.
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@Mrs M
Why's there a huge gap at the bottom of your last post?????
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Yes, what is that about?
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@Mister P
If only Rentaghost were still going, you'd be in such demand. :)
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Let's bring it back then! :)
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@Aspie
The inch long gap at the bottom of my post is the blog equivalent of a minute's silence for the weekend loss of The Blues four year unbeaten home record in the Premier League. Ironically the last time they were defeated at home in a Premiership match was to an unknown team called Arsenal, or somesuch.
The Special One has not stopped crowing since Sunday....
@Micheal
It is indeed a trial being married to Mr M. A sitcom in waiting......
@Mister P
You seem to have been similarly afflicted re the long gap in your last post. Either it's the message board gremlins at work or your mouse needs servicing....
Mrs M
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No it just took a while to think of something to say Mrs M.
:)
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@Micheal
Wooed or Wude
Will recent radio events form a module for deconstruction purposes in the comedy college agenda for next term?
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@MisterP
Fortunately we specialise in narrative and don't have voicemail.
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Given that this particular blog seems to have reached its natural end, the next one will follow next week's workshop when the College goes to Manchester.
We will be having visits from Jon Mountague, the executive producer of Comedy North; Danny Peak, on his journey from competition winner to episode writer to creator of a new BBC1 sitcom; and psychotherapist Loretta Riordan, who will be exploring the the psychology of character.
We'll also be re-storylining and re-writing an episode of My Family to get a feel for the table-writing experience.
I'll report on all that in due course.
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'given that this particular blog seems to have reached its natural end....'
Much like Mr M, Micheal.
Look forward to your report back from the Comedy College workshop!
Mrs M
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"given that this particular blog seems to have reached its natural end..."
Michael, I just assumed you were keeping a low profile in the hope that the Daily Mail don't notice you exist. ;)
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@Mrs M
I don't know - third in the table isn't bad. He must be happier than Arsene at the moment, and we've got Manchester United on Saturday lunchtime.
@Aspie
No, still here. Given that the Mail asked of two shows I produced - is this the worst sitcom ever? - I must exist somewhere in their archive. But neither was at all rude.
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Are there going to be comedy college scarves? It's cold oop north Micheal.
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Nevermind scarves, Mister P, if they're going to Manchester they need to pack their Comedy College Kevlar Vests. :)
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#68
"@Bloofs
'Your comment about many people watching 'whatever's on BBC or ITV without discriminating much' really has to take the biscuit for the most sweeping generalisation of the year.'
-Perhaps, I can only go on personal experience.
'Worse, you fall ino the trap of taking the proverbial out of those who do. Your comment that it's ok to criticise these sitcoms because there must be 'better sitcoms out there that the mass market can appreciate' is breathtakingly snotty and implying that the public must be complete idiots and culturally unsophisticted. '
-You misunderstand my point quite a bit. I am actually suggesting the public is *more* sophisticated than the stuff they are regularly fed on BBC1. Why do you think I raised the topic of The Office? The Office is superior to My Family - and the Office was a popular crossover with wide appeal. Had to struggle away on BBC2 though before it got the recognition it deserved.
Now, I'm no fan of The Royle Family, for example, but it has more edge, insight subtlety, and realism than MF and 2P so I'm not just talking about personal taste here.
If I'm being 'breathtakingly snotty' - fair enough, but that's my view.
'Surely, in a democratic world, the point of the sitcom writer and commissioners is to offer as wide a range of comedy to the viewing public as possible? And then let them decide which one they want to watch.'
-Yes, but do they get that choice when the same old stuff is commissioned?
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Entering this discussion late in the day because before the excellent redesign this is one of the many blogs I missed seeing. As for all scriptos, the very subject of dialogue has a fascnination for me. There's one major point in the blog itself I'd like to pick up on - 'Don't use dialogue that doesn't move the story on'.
I often relax by watching old sitcoms on DVD, and of course for a keen amateur they are semi instructional. Some of the best and most entertaining passages of 'sitcomedy' (as oppose to comedy) that I come across are from the 70s sitcoms such as Steptoe and Son, Rising Damp, Porridge and WHT The Likely Lads. All four of these classics have long passages of conversational dialogue dominated by the star character, which are not narrative related and do not drive it forward. BUT they are often quite brilliant, very entertaining and they make both the characters and the shows themselves truly memorable. Actually you should probably include Yes Minister in that group as well, especially the Sir Humphrey speak passages.
So, follow your hard and fast rule on this to the letter and it is no more fantastically colourful flourishes of conversational dialogue for the sake of it, no more wordy, worldly wise utterances from the likes of such sitcom greats as Terry Collier, Norman Fletcher, Harold Steptoe, Terrence Rigsby, Wolfie Smith and Rab Nesbitt then. No, surely you would not be that obdurate if something as good as that lot was to fall on your lap!??? Tell me NO!
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Mrs Morhino, you've inadvertantly distracted me from my scripting, as if I need any more. No, you've awakened me I'm afraid. You see there's girl lives opposite me and she looks like a mouse. I often think that she needs servicing. Too often...Oh damn, not again.
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