College 4
Well, today we've let the people we would like to interview know, and let the people from the long list who we're not going to interview know too. We'll be meeting people next Tuesday and Wednesday, and announcing the six by the end of next week, all being well. And that's the news from the college.
Since some of the comments have moved into general areas beyond the scheme, it seems like a good opportunity to address some myths and misconceptions.
One, which hasn't yet surfaced but is bound to at some point, is that we are so bereft of projects that we steal ideas from new writers and give them to some mythical group of favourites who exist in a basement of Television Centre waiting to be fed. There is never a shortage of scripts of ideas. There is always a shortage of good scripts and ideas. Indeed, when I ran an online team-writing project called Cleaners, someone claimed I had stolen it which, since it was based on a format I devised at Alomo, was demonstrably untrue. It's a fact of writing life that several people will have a similar idea at much the same time. Although I have only once seen a project set in a public lavatory.
Another, which Kroggy has raised, is that there is some sort of clique or inner circle of writers, to which outsiders can never be admitted. This is a good conspiracy theory, but doesn't bear close examination. In my seven years at the BBC, I have found or been involved in finding (some with the invaluable help of the writers' room) seven writers who had no broadcast credits, knew no one at the BBC, and are all now writing professionally both here and for other broadcasters. Colleagues have similar experiences to report. Everyone in comedy wants to find and foster new writers whose work they can develop and see produced. There is no closed shop.
I am currently reading projects which we plan to pitch to commissioning and thence, all being well, to channels. A quarter of those projects are by writers with no broadcast credits, and are thus, by my definition, new. For some it may be a second or third attempt to get a show made, but for all of them it was a matter of someone here who didn't know them finding a script they liked.
So while we obviously have a pool of writers who seem likely to create a produceable show, it is a pool which is constantly refreshed and continues to expand. That doesn't feel like a clique to me.
I thought the college entry requirements were clear, though I had three or four requests for clarification. They were designed to rule out complete beginners, because the scheme isn't designed for complete beginners.
The final shortlist was a result of reading and comment by nine people with significant experience in television comedy, including the senior members of the comedy department.
I am not going to publish submissions, first because some are in development outside the BBC, and second because I will not expose writers to trial by internet, even if they were willing. .
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~55~RS~)
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Thanks for that clarification Micheal. I must admit I am one who has wondered about the system and the selection of writers, but I am coming to terms with the fact that there are thousands of better writers out there than me, otherwise I'd be one of the six and that my 'failures' have been nothing to do with 'it's who you know' etc. I'd give you a 'smilie' if the facility/icon was on here to do so...LOL
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Ah, Cleaners. Such memories ...
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well but, yeah but, no but---can these things teach anyone to write anyway?
If you want to learn to paint, you find someone who can paint; if you want to play the piano, you don't learn from somebody who can't play one.
So why is writing different? How are people who can't and don't write themselves going to teach anybody else to do it?
Anyone can set themselves up in business as an editor and writing guru, but if they know so much about it, why don't they go and do it themseves?
Or do they just want jobs in the media, messing other people's work up?
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arniespoons
first you have to look at yourself and your writing. Is it good enough? Why has it not been accepted? Answer, you're not good enough, there are thousands of talented writers out there. Why is your work not being recognised?...it aint good enough love....get used to it, it's a fact
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speak for yourself, juggles. good to see you're getting into the lovie-speak though; that should help you no end.
let's roll the credit list - what classic comedy of the past fifty years was ever written by some product of "writing college"? Not one.
John Sullivan, Johnny Speight, Perry and Croft, Clements and la Frenais - etc - all taught themselves to write.
the trouble is, most people don't want to write. they want to get something on the telly. which is an entirely diffrent thing.
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@arniespoons
You misunderstand. The college isn't designed to teach people to write. It is designed to help people who can write do so more effectively for a particular medium by becoming involved with and hearing from other writers.
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maybe, but most writers don't know how they write and even the most successful of them have trouble writing and selling their own work and still get rejected.
so what help can they be? nobody can be an expert in a field in which expertise does not exist.
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nobody can be an expert in a field in which expertise does not exist
Now that is gold!
:)
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can one detect the distant sound of clichés being taken out for a trot?
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What does a clich sound like? Is it some sort of lame horse? Is it being flogged?
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it's got one leg shorter than the other and it sort of limps painfully along
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No arniespoons, that's a haggis, isn't it? A haggis has one leg shorter than the other, hence can only run round in circles. Otherwise we'd never catch the little blighters.
Also, I don't think you have to be a great writer to be a great editor. What is an editor other than someone representing the end customer - i.e. the reader/viewer?
So I think it's entirely possible for someone who has never had their own writing work produced to be able to give useful, constructive advice, just as it's possible for my mate, or my sister or whoever to read my work and say 'that's rubbish'.
I write kids books, and read them to my son. I can gauge by his reaction which bits are exciting him and which bits aren't. Okay, so aged six he can't tell me precisely why these parts don't work, but that's not his job. That's my job as the writer.
So no, the greats you mention above didn't go to any BBC run comedy college, but did they have feedback from people who weren't writers? Probably more than they could cope with. Did that feedback improve their work? Almost certainly.
Incidentally, I speak as someone who had never heard of the college thingy until last night, but personally I think it's a fab idea.
Baz
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Oh, and another thing...
I was involved in Cleaners, which MJ mentioned above, and at the time had never been in contact with anyone at the BBC (aside from a brief meeting with Terry Wogan on a train platform in 1996, but I don't think that counts).
I think it's very easy to think the BBC is closed off if you don't know anyone, but so is every organisation. The trick is to write the great script, and you can bet they'll be falling over themselves to get to know you.
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ah well, you have a point of course.
True, you don't have to be a carpenter to know that the table's wonky.
But knowing there's something wrong with the furniture - that's not the same thing as knowing how to make the table. Of course anyone can be a critic, and quite rightly, but if critics really knew how to do it, why don't they?
And then not liking the furniture and thinking it's rubbish doesn't mean it's bad. It might just not appeal to your taste.
I've met people who think Shakespeare's crap.
And then again too, why should a writer set out to please what he or she perceives to be the expectations of his or her readers? You're doomed if you do that. Writing to please other people usually ends up pleasing no one.
Oh, it's all so complicated.
It must be time for a coffee.
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Producers don;t want to write necessarily Mister Spoons that's why... ahem... they are producers.
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All very good points. Particularly about the coffee.
I think you're right - a writer should first and foremost write for themselves. The problem arises, however, if no-one else shares your taste, in which case you'll have shelves full of stuff you love, but no-one else will ever see.
For some people that's enough, and I've written a load of stuff myself which was solely for my own enjoyment. My 170,000 word Bargain Hunt fan fiction, for example.*
Anyway, I've now completely lost track of any point I was trying to make, so it's time for the coffee.
Baz
*This is a lie.
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producers want to be producers because they got to the end of the media studies course and discovered that there was nothing is they were good for
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or even nothing else they were good for too
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Are you sure you want to be a writer?
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you don't have to like producers to be one, do you?
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that would be like dogs voting for worms
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@ Juggles - please get a grip - there are not necessarily thousands of writers out there better than you. Please see my blog under college three under PLACEBO - you will initially find it dishearting that something so unfunny was given the oxygen of airtime when it should have been avapourised to oblivion at the moment of conception but you will, and I hope, realise that you can do better. so, chin up
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@ Micheal - Thanks for the new blog - but as predicted - you evaded answering the questions directly - very reminiscent of the now legend Jeremy Paxman and Micheal Howard Newnight interview.
Your blog needs a considered response.
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Micheal as you work for the BBC we literally pay your wages, so when we say bark, you darn well better do so - and wag your tail while you're at it!
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@ BaZ
'The trick is to write the great script, and you can bet they'll be falling over themselves to get to know you.'
Great script - do you watch much TV comedy?
Look at my blog on Placebo in College 3 blog.
P.S.
Does terry Wogan really waer a wig? Coulf you tell from where you wer standing?
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Thanks Kroggy for the encouragement. I too thought exactly like you up to a couple of years ago. Frustrated after years of submitting stuff and papering my attic with rejections, I finally got to blame myself.
Two of my sitcoms have been so close to being accepted and when they weren't it plunged me into hell and drinking.
But I will say that two bigwigs did ring me and ask had I got anything else. So it's not true that they go for who/what they know. If your work is good enough...they'll take it. Had I got anything else at the time, they were both prepared to read it.
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@juggles
No what you mean about rejections - I think most of the Brazilian rainforests in my shed somewhere.
Hoep you have found your crampons and climbed out of your hell and misery.
I agree that if it is good - but 'then it comes down to the definition of 'Good'. This is what I am trying to find out from Micheal what did they consider good.
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No? - too much text speak Know...
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@Kroggy
Good equals - made us laugh, presented a novel situation or made an old one fresh, involved original, attractive characters, had a comically skewed take on the world, made us want to see more/read more from this person/this team.
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@Kroggy
I'm mid-way through a sitcom at the minute, after focusing on kids books for the last few years, and so decided to watch Placebo too see what I should be aspiring to.
In my humble opinion it was everything that is wrong with British sitcom rolled into one raw, trembling package of ... er ... unfunnyness.
Knob gags aside, it managed to cram in one dimensional characters (is there such a thng as no-dimensional?), terrible visual gags about an overweight man-child cacking his pants and a main character so inept he'd be better served as a sidekick to DangerMouse. Although give Penfold his due, at least HE was funny, unlike the people in Placebo.
BUT - and here's the thing - that's just what I think. Other people might love it. I know people who hate The Office, Father Ted, Gavin and Stacey, and everything Monty Python have ever done. Different tastes an' that.
The BBC should represent all of us, and provide entertainment for the entire country. This means some stuff you or I are going to think is rubbish. If we were in charge and picked only the stuff we liked, half the country would probably hate it.
But yes, with you all the way on Placebo. The fact I watched it right to the end has filled me with self-hatred and loathing.
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Oh, and I couldn't tell if Tel had a wig on. I once met the guy who played Mr Bronson in Grange Hill (God rest his soul) and he deffo had a wig on.
But then I don't think I'm surprising anyone there.
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Er... and sorry for writing 'too' in my previous post when I should have written 'to'. I'm writing this on my mobile on the tiniest keyboard known to man, and obviously got carried away with my Os.
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Micheal,
Let me just respond to your assertion that I think there is some conspiracy theory. I don't personally believe in them - unless you consider Roswell, and 9/11 and, of course the fact that Marilyn Monroe was murdered by the CIA in conjunction with Fidel Castro and Danny La Rue - his bodices were found all over the place. - But I don't want to be seen as the Mohamed al Fayed of this blog site.
That said, however, I think you will accept that conspiracy theories evolve when there is perceived mistrust about the information provided officially - in this case yourself; official bodies who refuse to reveal the true details and hide, apparently, behind quasi justifications or bureaucracy. I asked you some very straight questions and for information which I thought would be good for me and the other unsuccessful applicants to know; and given that you claim that the writersroom is all about openness - you refuse, or so it appears, to be open and honest.
As in all writing schemes that you apply for , you want to find out -what it was about the material that is successful; that made their work stand out against your own; and, unlike Salieri and others of mediocre ability, I can - and would be willingly -to look at a sample of the successful of work and say 'Yep, that's good - very good. I have no problems with that.' I compared the 'The Smoking Room script with Marigold the winner of the BBC sitcom talent thing - no contest. The person who wrote The Smoking room knew how to write - it was funny from the first page - the other writer didn't.
Understanding what is successful - what works and what doesn't work - is all part of writing. We were asked to provide a ten-page sample; it is like a pitch - a single opportunity to get it right. And, of course, some may be better at that than others; but how do you improve? - How, if another scheme runs like, do you improve your chances unless you can have some yardstick by which to measure your entry? That is, I don't think, an unreasonable request. Unless, of course, you do feel, personally, that - the twenty selected were not really that good and you want to avoid 1380 rejected applicants thinking - 'This can't be right, can it? That was considered to be good?'
I also asked you, not unfairly, about the experiences and background of the successful applicants; no-one is asking for names. Again, I am only trying to gauge how my own experience measures up against those that were successful. I think this would be useful for ALL of us to know.
You stated in your blog, ' I am not going to publish submissions, first because some are in development outside the BBC'. So, some of the successful candidates were well advanced and probably already known to you. Again, it comes back to not being entirely honest about how the scheme runs. Given that some applicants already have ideas in development, it DOES suggest that they are already known to you; and doesn't that run contrary to the philosophy and spirit of this programme? That this scheme is for the unknown? Shouldn't it be for people who need a chance to get into writing comedy for the BBC TV - not for those who already have stuff in development outside the BBC?
Also, I can't really comprehend that you fully evaluated, personally, all 1400 entries. Given that it would take say approx 5mins/ sample - obviously more for the successful ones x 1400 = 7000mins = 111 hours. So - in a working day - you might spend in order to avoid brain injury about 4hrs/ working day = 27 days working days. You must have had help, Micheal. You must have a had a minion or two who did the sifting for you. I suspect, however, that you won't admit to that because that, per se, does create a number of unfair complications; like I said, the new media studies graduate who thinks knob jokes are cool.
Finally, in all of this, the scheme has not been helpful in directing the comedy to appropriate audiences. We are well aware that the BBC3 audience is different from BBC 1 and 2 and 4 - but never was there any guidance in the type of audience we may be aiming a sample for - that is another negative in the organisation of this scheme.
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@ Micheal
This is still so vague and wishywashy - give us a chance to agree with you.
'Good equals - made us laugh, presented a novel situation or made an old one fresh, involved original, attractive characters, had a comically skewed take on the world, made us want to see more/read more from this person/this team.'
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What makes you laugh Kroggy? We've got a good idea of what makes you cry?
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Kroggy
Yes, once I came to terms that there is always some other b*gger that's better, I relaxed, started writing and getting rejections again and stopped drinking. But like you, I would like to see winning scripts to see how much better than anyone elses are.
I know I went on a lot during the LL comp [but I was drinking] but still know that my 'Love for Sale' script was/is hilarious as opposed to a couple of the winners. An no editor will convince me of anything else.
The writer [of Gimme gimme, can't remember his name] said to do anything at all with the ending of his sitcom, so I did.
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@IAMP
A lot of things make me laugh - I love comedy - but I take it seriously.
- The Office; Gavin and Stacey, My name is Earl; Scrubs; lead Balloon; Fools and horses; porridge-
I like lots of comedy and will give any comedy a chance.
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I love the Big Bang Theory, now that is different
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Juggles,
Why do you think that there is some other bugger that is better - that is the whole point of my beef- THERE ISN'T! TNot getting on this scheme makes you think that - in fact - your blog suggest that instead of encouraging writers - it just pisses them off and sends them into utter despair.BECAUSE - there is no closure - they will not make it clear. So, ask Micheal yourself to let us see the sample that were so wonderfully successful!
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Well most of them are on the BBC.
I only point that out re your Placebo remarks, which I can't honestly see the relevance on.
I also imagine we get more info as to who got in and why as the blogs and the scheme progresses. As said earlier, there's no point beating yourself up over this. Odds of 1400/6 are never going to be good. The selection process has to be subjective by your own argument. It was never about complete unknowns that is why they asked for people worth credits to submit. They were looking for people who already put some commitment in. You said earlier that you met the criteriaand more - so you already understand that.
It's clear that you are disappointed not to have been picked, you wouldn't be so angry else. But stick your chin out and think of it like the Eurovision song contest. Just get your sitcom made in the normal manner - a lot lot lot more get done that way. Well in fact every one in history since this college hasn't been run before.
:)
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@IAMP
You don't seem to give a toss, really - that's good. Much to be admired about that philosophy.
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Spilling erors all delibate.
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Oh Kroggie.
You may not believe that I read them all, but I did. Four hours would be a short working day. I have never said, by the way, I was the only one who read submissions.
You may not believe that there are writers in the world who I have not met, but there are. I have met only one of the people we are interviewing.
The scheme is not for the unknown, as was made clear in the entry requirements. It is for people who have already done something. So obviously they will be developing work or selling work to the BBC, ITV, C4 or independent companies.
I have given you my definition of good, a definition met by the people on the short list.
We did not specify any BBC channel. To do so would have been excluding.
When the successful candidates are announced you will know who they are, and their backgrounds.
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@IAMP
Can't see the relevance of how bad PLACEBO was?
You have missed the point, IAMP. I asked to see the samples so I could judge what i needed to do to improve.
Clearly, that is not important to you becasue A) you are so wonderfully naturally talented that when you can stop being so laid back and getting around to writing that revolutionary sitcom, it will be snapped up in an instant ' No, sweat,Man!'
b) Or that you couldn't really give a toss and this is just how you fill your time in between going to the job centre and pulling the ring on the next can of carlsberg.
Please clarify
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Were those winners with work in development outside the BBC part of the 100 that were overqualified, therefore not eligible? Confused!
@Kroggy
Have to agree with you on PLACEBO. They saved the best gag until last. "She's behind me isn't she?" Also used in Inbetweeners this week. How can we compete with that?
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What has PLACEBO got to do with asking to see the winning samples?
And I reckon it's a mixture of A and B.
You wanted to see the samples so you could judge how you can improve??? - now that did have me laughing out loud. If your ten pages had that kind of material I am 100% with you man. you should have been in. Damn you should be running the course!
:)
psssst ahhh. Carlsberg!
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@Micheal
Great - but what about the samples?You have still not answered a direct question.
No, it would not have been excluding at all - That doesn't make sense.
You know, full well, that channels are different. So, in this scheme it may have been aimed at BBC knob gag - but I didn't include knob gags - my sample would have been appropriate for BBC2.
You are not being fair - and that is my point!
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I guess Kroggy it comes from a lifetime of disappointments in other walks of my life.
I have always picked myself up, dusted myself down etc, absolutely never been a defeatist but one does tire. When my LL script didn't get anywhere either, I began to realise that the ship I had been waiting for all those years was called the Titanic and nothing, just nothing will ever work in my favour.I wonder if editors realise just what effect their rejections have on writers
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@GB
Thanks - it becoming clear that the views are moving towards the fact that PLACEBO - was Sh*te - but, hey, the writers clearly had potential.
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Juggles,
Your blog line about Titanic sounds like a line from 'Some like it Hot'.
Yep, you just have to keep going but it doesn't help when you have schemes like this that are clearly biased.
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Perhaps I should have said luckier rather than better
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@juggles,
You sound really unhappy - sorry. Don't let the b*stards grind you down.
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@IAMP
What are you on about? Finish your spliff and come into this world.
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I like my world thanks all the same Kroggy. It seems a happier place.
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I'm very happy these days Kroggy, thanks. I, like, everyone else just want to get my writing accepted
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Gosh, aren't a lot of people wasting time complaining about others writing? Just how think how much great comedy could maybe come from the naysayers if they put their time and efforts into writing their own work and not slating other people's successes, try outs, development processes and tastes. It's actually quite unprofessional too and demonstrates quite a lack of understanding about how telly comedy is produced, commissioned, developed and made.
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2christian
I think what most posters are saying is that they'd like to know where [if at all] they are going wrong. Maybe you were lucky enough to hit the right format at the right time.
I would like to know what was so fantastic about the six winners work, so that I can get on the right track too, that's all.
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Anybody else here who keeps censoring himself before submitting anything to the Writers Room? The fear of clichés is so omnipresent that I keep rewriting to oblivion, and the feeling of my ideas being completely unmarketable is a strong one.
I should really stop torturing my creativity and move my bottom.
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@Juggles
It's not a matter of right and wrong. The people who got to the interview stage wrote stuff which nine people at the BBC preferred to other stuff. That's not to say that the other stuff was bad, or was on the wrong track.
@2ChristianTypists
Thank you for your post, and for a brilliant nom-de-net.
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So it all boils down to luck then...i.e. ones script getting in the intray of someone like minded.
In that case, I was born with a tin opener in my mouth, others had silver spoons
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1400/6
Yup it all boils down to luck. But the harder workers on it have probably been more lucky than those that didn't work so hard.
If you think about it there is a word for someone who puts his mortgage on a horse at odds of 1400/6... and it isn't gambler.
:)
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I've just been reading these posts for an insight to the selection process for Sharps and well it's just an observation guys but the amount of time you've spent blogging over the last few days...well surely you'd have been more constructive re-working your master pieces....not that I don't appreciate the lively debate but still...
You guys! Writers write, etc.
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A tip for Sharps, Marc, is try and keep the characters consistent to themselves.
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I like coming out of the attic occasionally
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First, in defence of this scheme and others like it, they are entirely based on what you send in. A while back I entered a similar comedy writing scheme and got on the shortlist without knowing anybody at the BBC or ever having been broadcast before. I was selected purely on the basis of what I'd sent in.
Most of the other people on the scheme had had nothing broadcast and knew nobody at the beeb either. Nor were they industry insiders.
That's not to say the scheme was perfect. Far from it. But I'm not going to go into that here.
Finally, I think some people can get slightly deluded about what these schemes offer. Yes, they're undoubtedly great opportunities. But the lucky six involved might go through it all and not end up with a commission. In many ways, the winners are like sperm. All desperately swimming towards the commissioners egg, hoping to fertalise it. And like sperm, most will fail. (Apologies to Michael since that analogy makes him Chief Sperm Wrangler!).
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LOL
I do know people at the beeb and there is no way I would ever approach them about my writing. If I can't get there on my own steam I would never know if I was good enough or not.
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@Marc - thanks for the sermonette re 'Effective use of writing time'. I do most of my writing during the night - so I need a distraction or two during the day.
@juggles - contacts? Use them - seriously.
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I do understand your frustration Kroggy. Although it has seemed to turn into a bit of a rant which is a shame because some interesting points have been raised. In my limited experience - mainly theatre and film- when these competitions arrive upon us we totally believe in them and dream of being discovered. I have been on both sides. I have been shortlisted for something and have known the producers who were selecting and also been shortlisted and been a complete unknown. I just think thats the way it works. Funding needs mean people in high places have to tick boxes and be seen to encourage new writers but maybe the powers that be aren't prepared to take as many risks on unknowns as we'd like them to. The Bruntwood is great because you have to write using a pseudo name. So you'd imagine it was definately judged on talent alone. Maybe the beeb should do a comp like that. Its an odd game - encouraging new writers - I was at a talk with Sita Williams and she said Jimmy McGovern (I'm not sure if thats how you spell it) only uses new writers for The Street. Great, I thought, and I asked where we submit our ideas. She then said they only accept submissions from writers with agents! New writers with agents! Maybe not so new, I thought. I think there are very few people who will genuinely invest in completely untried, unknown writers. Possibly rightly so and the term "new" can be and often is bended as far as you want to take it.
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They should have a prog dedicated to new writing/unknown writers then. that'd be great
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@BlodynC
Yes, 'new' can be defined in different ways. It can mean a writer who has never sold any writing. It can mean a writer who has sold some writing which has been developed and not produced. It can mean new to the medium.
Defining 'new' as 'never had a sitcom produced', I'm developing projects with six writers who fall into that category, and colleagues elsewhere in the department are working with other untried writers in the form.
On the other hand, all of my six are involved with performance in some way. So does that make them 'new' or does their live experience mean that they're not?
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I would say they're new to writing whether they've performed or not. Performing just makes one more aware of how scripts/dialogue works and would probably help greatly when writing/setting out a script and stage/film directions etc but it wouldn't make them into writers if they haven't the talent. Writing is a different ball game than acting. I personally have done both but discovered that writing was what I really wanted to do after years of yearning to act...LOL
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"all of my six are involved with performance in some way. So does that make them 'new' or does their live experience mean that they're not?"
I don't know... but I do know it makes them 'writer-performers', who are completely different animals to 'writers'.
There's an over-riding trend in comedy towards performers who write/develop their own material (it's almost unheard of in other areas of drama).
Arguably, this has led to a decline in opportunities and openings for comedy writers who do not perform. Arguably (again) this has also led to a decline in traditional writer-driven comedy, like the sitcom.
Perhaps the next BBC comedy writing opportunity could make that distinction? And be just for writers?
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I have noticed on various writer's forums that many would be writers just have no understanding of what is possible and what is not though....just to exaggerate...'an elephant appears on stage' etc.
Performing experience teaches one just what is possible/not possible and makes one aware of budget too. Also what the writer wants in the 'frame' or when someone should exit/enter etc. Or where it's possible to film and where it isn't.
It is vastly useful.
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'an elephant appears on stage'
didn't seem to hinder Gavin and Stacey.
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i_amMister
It's difficult to have serious debates with your attitude
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What attitude is that?
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@princeseagoat
Victoria Wood, Jennifer Saunders, Ricky Gervais and Stephen Merchant, Peter Kay, Simon Pegg and Jessica (as was) Stevenson, Lee Mack, Dylan Moran, James Corden and Ruth Jones ... an incomplete list of performers who can also be classed as sitcom writers.
Indeed, when most of them had their first series commissioned, they could be defined as 'new' writers.
And I wouldn't say it was a trend. Ab Fab, Spaced, Black Books and Phoenix Nights were a while ago now. I'd say it was more that shows have always sold both on the script and on the star.
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Rob Brydon, Frank Skinner, Ade Edmondson, Michael Palin, John Cleese, Her out of Nighty Night, Tony Robinson!!
Not necessarily a bad thing, if it's way in, and you can do it why not.
Lots of ways to skin a cat.
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Also I can remember Ben Elton stating quite clearly that he only got into doing stand up so that he could get his writing furthered.
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Caroline Aherne and Craig Cash, of course.
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Chris Langham
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Oh great! so now have to be a performer in order to get my writing noticed. That sucks donkey balls because I am a behind the scenes kind of person. I don't want to be seen. I want to be heard through performers.
Jeez!
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Valk
You can't please all of the people all of the time and in this case only six are pleased...LOL
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I don't have a problem with performers/actors turning writers - if they're good, then best of luck to them. I would imagine their understanding of how dialogue and scripts work must be more advanced than a complete novice. In a previous life I was a Stage Manager and my experience absolutely contributed to my understanding of plays and also to my first commission. I absolutely got my first break because I was already in the industry as a Stage Manager but I also felt that my experience deserved to be acknowledged in some way. Its a bit of a double edged sword. I hate that people get on because of who they know but its alright when it happens to me!!!
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Sure, comedy is driven by writer-performers (who write their own stuff and star in it).
That was my point.
I can't think of much 'straight' (not sure what else to call it) TV drama written by and starring the same person. It's a comedy thing.
I don't have a problem with it, but where does it leave the non-performing comedy writer, like Valkamini and myself?
(Her out of nighty-night: Julia Davies, brilliant performer - Human Remains one of the best things on TV ever, ever, ever.... developed through improvisation by two comedy actors)
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@ Juggles
good luck to the six who were picked, I'm sure they deserve their places.
Nope I'm worried that in order to make it as a comedy writer it seems you must have done the rounds on the comedy circuit. (Well according to what I've read here anyway.)
I am not and never will be a comedy performer so where does that leave me?
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Yeah, what princeseagoat said as well.
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valk
well, further up it was sort of agreed it's just the luck of the draw because there are thousands of good writers.
I have done comedy performing and my script wasn't even longlisted, so where does that leave me? LOL
What's worse for 'me' is when a certain Building Society gets its staff to do TV ads....thus leaving trained/professional performers like myself seaching for work. They wouldn't let me on their counters for the day would they.
Life aint fair but that's just the way it is
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There are plenty of sitcom writers on TV who aren't comedy performers. Marks and Gran apparently do a Little and Large impression. But that doesn't really count. And most of the writer's on the Beeb's nursery slope for writers sitcoms - My Family , 2 Packets, Green Grass etc aren't performers as far as I know.
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Ok perhaps I should elaborate; because I am relatively new to comedy writing it means I haven't written much. Certainly nothing has been broadcast or sold. In fact I am an unhatched egg as far as the pecking order goes. And for this reason I didn't apply because i didn't meet the criteria. So i have no business carping on about those who made it while my (non existent) script was not short listed. It's just that I imagined that I would plough on for some time with my writing, and hopefully my hard work would pay off.
Cue the massive hurdle in the guise of 'doing the rounds on the comedy circuit'.
Well that's me well and truly failed before I've started because there is no way in hell (unless it freezes over!) I will ever perform.
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i_amMisterP
Sure there are. We could all name a good few, I'm sure.
There's still a bias towards writer-performers in comedy.
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valk
It's not usually one of the requirements for submitting writing to be that you have performed/do perform. In fact I've never seen/heard of that before this comp.
Normally it's a CV of your writing experience that is asked for
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I'm not preaching guys, not my place...but I've gotton hooked on reading your posts...and feel that two things are happening here:
firstly - the scripts you entered were'nt selected because it failed to impress six key people. Have you asked yourselves why? Have you re-read it and having done so can you honestly answer the question: ; is it funny to a broader audience? Not just to me? Stop and deal with it yourself....because quite honestly some of your posts have been cringe worthy in your attitude toward the panel and the industry.
secondly - a few of you are doing what most writers do, putting obsticles in your path before you even begin. Without sounding too much like your mother - stop it! Stop worrying about other people and what they are or are not doing and have the self belief in yourself and your work...if you don't feel you want to go out on to the performance circuit, then don't. Believe in yourself but more importantly belive in your writing. Don't let it stop you from writing...
That's the key here guys, being a writer isn't about recognisation or a job it's about expression of self, that need to write.
With some of you I've been asking if you are writers or one of those people caught up in the idea of 'being a writer'. I imagine black polo necks and lattes... that self concious flick of the hair as you self conciously tell people what you do at parties.
My point though is this - stop worrying about how to get recognised/that commission and just concentrate on your writing, the rest will follow...
Alright, alright...so it comes across as 'preachy' - am just trying to reach out and reassure some of the last posters and their doubts, is all.
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Gavin and Stacy is well shit
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Marc, dear fellow, are you an American by any chance?
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Thanks Marc for your encouraging post. As someone who is relatively new to comedy writing (I wandered in), I know I've got years of hard work and rejections to look forward to before a commissioner reads my script and freezes over from shock and awe at the brilliance of my script. That's to be expected and isn't something that would deter me from following my instincts as a comedy writer.
Having to perform would.
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@ I_AmMisterP: No, I am Welsh...spelling isn't a forte after being up half the night with a young baby...
@Valkamini, good luck with it and hopefully it won't take years. ;) - one thought, when you have a piece your happy with, from a marketing point of view, how about targeting a performer? You could be the power behind the throne! It worked for Robbie Williams and his song writing partner....
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Well sympathies for being up all night with the baby Marc, I think it was just the finger wagging tone that irks a little. When you make sill comments about hair flicking and then say
'That's the key here guys, being a writer isn't about recognisation or a job it's about expression of self, that need to write.'
That's the same kind of thing as hair flicking and wearing cravats in my book. The whole point of this college thingummy and the blog here... is that is exactly what people here are concerned with. I.e having writing as a job, being professional. Tensions run high because they do take it seriously.
As someone who is entering the Drama initiative from the Beeb, can't remember what it is called, I presume that is an ambition of yours as well.
And I can honestly admit that I do have a red velvet smoking jacket and a fez in my studio. Seriously!
:)
Another Marc
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There is a lot of paranoia on display in these comments. The stereotype of the aspiring writer who thinks the only reason why his brilliant scripts fail to be produced is that he didn't go to the right university or doesn't drink in the right Soho watering holes is alive and well.
The Writersroom people, and producers generally, are *desperate* to find great scripts *by anyone*. Finding a great script reflects well on them; it's in their interest to do so. A drowning man doesn't shun a life preserver because it's handed to him by someone he doesn't know.
You can't teach someone to be funny. But you can teach a funny person how to be even funnier and more effective at what they do - how to combine their natural comic instinct with a craftsman's approach to scriptwriting and a competent grasp of industry workings.
One reason why a lot of writers teach, produce or run schemes is that writing rarely pays enough to allow one to give up the day job.
If your script is good enough, people will notice you - agents and producers. If people don't notice you, you have to face the possibility that perhaps the problem lies with your script...
A final point: imagine you're producer with two equally funny pilot scripts by new writers on your desk and the resources to produce only one. The first script's writer is friendly, optimistic, full of new ideas and fun to work with. The second script's writer has a chip on their shoulder the size of a Harry Ramsden restaurant, only one big idea that they can never let go, and never wastes an opportunity to bitterly and jealosuly slag off other shows (some of which the producer may herself have worked on). Who would you want to work with?
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I'm not trying to be irksome...it just comes naturally...the point I was trying to make is that some of the blogging was petulant at best...rude at worst...
Some of the 'newer' writers were reaching out and I feel that this blog would be best served to be constructive to help one another...with a few exceptions (big nod to you I_Am) that wasn't the case.
if we're 'fessing up' I think I have a black polo neck somewhere in the house ;)
Now, if you'll excuse one, one needs a latte!
Good luck to you all - I'm being sucked into this blogging thing...and need....to..resist...got to....resist....resist posting bloggs...must post comment...resissssttttttttttttttt...
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I haven't read the multitude (centitude?) of posts so forgive me for being repetitive but in reply to all the 'you're not good enough' comment and complaining about comedy performers - If you want to know what's funny trying stuff out in front of people is a brilliant way to find out. Yes you might not be Eddie Izzard but you could be 'you' in all your glory. It's a trial by fire but then so are all the writing rejections. Give your local open mic a go, see how far your one liners get you. If you can be self reflective after five minutes of tumbleweed, edit your stuff, realise what works and what doesn't it's a step forward. I didn't get anywhere with comedy college but I know I'm funny, what I submitted didn't work for that context. (ok I'm not funny I'm crap ohmigod how dare I say I'm funny, oh no....etc etc, ok I did that too for a week then gave up destroying myself) I think what I'm saying is don't self flaggelate (I know I can't spell), do self-reflect. The biggest obstacle to get past is yourself....
.....that sounds v.v.v.cheesy.
big hugs x
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I was on the Cleaners team with Baz. Like him I just entered the open competition and got chosen. It was a blast and I learnt a lot.
I don't believe in this "who you know" conspiracy myself. I'd had no dealings with the BBC before. I live a couple of hundred miles from London so I don't schmooze people in wine bars either. It's not "who you know" it's "how you write". There's too much money involved for it to be anything else.
The reason people persist with this idea is that it's much easier to live with the fact that you're being held back by the old boy network, rather than admitting to yourself that your stuff just isn't good enough. Because once you admit that, you have to work harder and spend less time chatting online. Which reminds me, this is task-avoidance. I'm supposed to be finishing the play I'm writing for the Bruntwood Competition.
I didn't make the top 40 for the Comedy College either but, if they run it again, you'd better believe I'm going to have something better up my sleeve.
Back to work. Good to hear from you again Baz.
Debbie G
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Hey Deb! How the devil are you? Be good to catch up. Don't think I'm allowed to post email or web addresses on here, which makes things tricky. Um ... if you google my name you'll find my blog, I think. Get my addy from there and give me a shout!
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@ Kroggy
This has been fascinating reading and has actually wasted a good 45 mins of my time.
Firstly, I'd like to say I laughed at this when I read it:
"Actor#1: Penile seepage. Does that mean your penis seeps stuff out of it or do you seep penises?"
So there you go. Someone thought it was funny. (Incidentally, I imagine a knob gag would be handy for someone with penile seepage.)
ANYWAY - good lord, how paranoid can one person be? I can tell you that I previously did OK in a Beeb comp and I was absolutely, utterly and completely unknown to the Beeb at that point. It was a useful scheme.
I'll tell you why MJ is unlikely to put up scripts that got people through for everyone to see, because quite frankly there would be a cascade of people like you lining up to take the chips off their shoulders and launch them at the very writers the scheme is designed to nourish and develop, not have them metaphorically stoned in public.
If you are convinced the Beeb is a closed shop, nothing is going to change your mind, so here's a tip - SUBMIT YOUR WORK ELSEWHERE! Find an agent, or find a production company whose work you enjoy and send it to them instead! That way, you'll either get nowhere and have lots of people to spread your vitriol around or else you'll get something made and can thumb your nose triumphantly at MJ and shout nyah nyah nyah nyah at the top of your lungs.
Jeez...
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Ooh sheepy, that's not like you!!!
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Everybody's having a go at poor old Kroggy but he has every right to get angry.
I personally am sick of BBC Comedies inability to produce quality mainstream sitcoms. Sure, they bend over backwards to make stuff for the 18 to 35 demographic, but if you're old in this country, you get nothing from BBC comedy. My parents haven't enjoyed a british sitcom since One Foot In The Grave ended. And they aren't alone. A lot of older people I talk to feel completely disenfranchised from modern comedy.
Yet if you're in the hallowed 18 to 35 demographic BBC throws money at them left right and centre, endlessly pumping out lame sketch shows and witless puerile shows on BBC3 (Tittytittybangbang, Scallywaga, Placebo, Admin, etc).
Perhaps the Comedy of College will redress the blance, and give us some truly accessible mainstream comedy everybody can enjoy, or perhaps it will churn out another Bunk Bed Boys or Marigold, i.e, niche comedy for a niche audience.
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Well, old people are just teenagers in old skin.
I am close on 70 and enjoy...
Two Pints
Gimme Gimme
IdealLast Of the Summer Wine.
And all the American ones.
I don't like the ones you have mentioned.
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I guess the point I'm making is that IMO BBC Comedy is somehow disconnected from mainstream audiences. While BBC Drama churns out great shows that appeal to a broad spectrum of people (Life on Mars, Ashes to Ashes, Spooks, Hustle, Cranfield, etc) BBC Comedy comes up with lame offerings like After You've Gone and Jam and Jerusalem. Clearly something is going wrong somewhere.
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I submitted one about four pensioners [neighbours] it came back without comments, just, we are not able to use this at this time, or something like that. I suspected that it was because it was aimed at an elderly audience
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It's a shame that so much comedy nowadays is about demographic box ticking rather than just what's funny. And I say that with my viewers hat on, not my writer's hat.
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I thought Jam and Jerusalem was great. The very first episode wasn't but after that top notch.
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I thought it was the naffest thing that's been on the box in years
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@AspieBoy
The competition which was won by Bunk Bed Boys and Marigold was run in association with BBC3, and hence the shows were aimed at that channel.
Writers in the final stages of selection for the college have quite different styles, ranging across BBC1, BBC2 and BBC3.
I think the BBC broadcasts a wide range of comedy, either produced in-house or by independents. Gavin and Stacey, Pulling, 2 Pints, My Family, Not going Out, Last of the Summer Wine, Sensitive Skin, The Thick of It and Extras feels like a pretty diverse portfolio to me.
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I find that 'My Family' is light entertainment rather than sitcom, I like it but can honestly say, I haven't once laughed at any of the dialogue
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I'd just like to say that I've taken an active interest in the Comedy College as someone who's interested in comedy writing. Having read MJ's blogs I've been impressed with his ability to keep us informed at all stages. I myself have a blog and find updating it far too irksome and time consuming so tend not to bother. The fact that someone as busy as he has been able to write should be thanked and not slagged off.
....So the interviews have taken place today and yesterday. Decisions have probably or are being made as we speak and I hope that the 6 people chosen enjoy this experience and get the most out of it. They will have deserved it.
To moan on about it being who you know not what you know is insulting to anyone who's ever made it. To suggest that none performers should be excluded so only 'writers' get a shot is eliteist. I know a fair few writers and comedienes and writer/performers, all are very serious about their craft and all have as much right as the next to be included in any sort of scheme. To slag off current BBC shows due to your annoyance at not being chosen is both unproffessional and childish and I'm sure the powers that be are thanking their lucky stars that the stuff you submitted wasn't good enough!
I'd also like to address the comment about the decision being made on what you submitted and only that and how unfair this is and shouldn't be seen as a reflection on your skills as a writer. Well yes actually it should. As a writer you really only have one tool to sell yourself and that's your writing. If it's not chosen or optioned then it's not good enough. Deal with it and move on. Suggestions that it's all luck is again, very rude to those that were short listed and only highlights some peoples inability to accept the fact that they may in fact be poor at writing.
I know someone who got long listed and I've never met anyone with more determination in my life. They didn't go to Cambridge, they don't own half of wiltshire, they don't tea with the BBC production staff on a regular basis, aren't london based and don't in fact have any contacts within the BBC. What excuses do you have for this person getting long listed and you not? No doubt something highly inventive!
This has turned in to a rant, and for this I'm sorry. However never before have I come across an industry that is so quick to judge other peoples' success and bitch and moan about ones own failures as if someone else is to blame. If you went for a 'normal' job interview and were unsuccesful would you really expect the other interviews to be posted on the web for you to critique, would you whine about only being given an hour to make your mark, would you expect the hiring manager of your local mcdonalds to write a blog on the process - NO - you wouldn't. So why do you all expect so much out of people who are essentially trying to give chances to your peers or perhaps one day to you and because it wasn't your day you feel vindicated in getting stroppy and throwing out your toys.
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So consider yourselves told off one and all
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Well said babyBlogger. Too many embittered conspiracy theorists whinging on this blog. Though if I don't get shortlisted for the Writers Academy that will be entirely due to my not appearing on the secret list of Oxbridge graduates who were chosen before the process again. Drama is different
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OK - I have come in for a lot of stick - good - that's what blog sites are all about - at least it has generated a discussion; mission accomplished - or for the knob gag lovers 'emission accomplished' - and as I am writing this at night....yes, nocturnal emission accomplished. - but don't start me on placebo. But then, lo and behold - someone likes it - Mr. E sheep. Good, well someone obviously had to otherwise it would not have been given airtime but then, that said does that necessarily make it good? Clearly, Mrs Hitler adored her son Adolf.
So either Mr Esheep was part of the production team or , maybe, judging by his rather dreary blog - the writer. ( We know who you are - Mark).
Something that has struck, however, about this blog, is that so many bloggers claim to be writers of comedy their blogs have been, on the whole, dull and unfunny ( IAMP, Juggles and Aspieboy being the exception). If you are going to write a blog - at least entertain us through the written word; and that goes for you too Babyblogger - talk about me - what an insipid diatribe that was - if you are going to write something - at least make it interesting.
@aspieboy
Agree with you about Jam and jerusalem. Unfortunately, the bristish Sitcom - as we know it - is dead . I think 'The Office' and 'Phoenix Nights' have seen to that; but, whetehr we should adopt the team-writing approach that lies behind so many succesful US shows, I dont know. That said, My Family - which uses that approach , seems to be very popular. Interestingly, I know two of the main writers on My Family ( Yes, I know people too) and their standard fall back is 'The Penguin Book of Jokes' - so what does that say?
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Kroggy
I am totally in agreement with you.
What happens is, that our scripts must totally agree with the humour of the editors that read it, otherwise one has no chance, so for instance, how can my northern humour ever please/align with some snobby effin southern editor that has never, ever been up't north???
I met a couple of years ago, a 'filming' session of a beeb afternoon experiment of afternoon drama, [ I can only recall the first name...Mal] an editor/head of scripts. He was a Vietnamese who had only been in this country a few years. How he came to be so important in the beeb I have no idea!!! But nevertheless he was in charge of sussing out our scripts!!
How could he possibly know the English sense of humour? Particularly northern?
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Do you know him Micheal? He is called Su, I met him in London after the filming of the then new afternoon dramas, they were really good afternoon one hour plays. The producer's first name was Mal, but I can't recall his surname
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whoops I don't think I should have posted that, drunk again.
Ignore me
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Oh Kroggy. Do stop taking everything so seriously. Your rantings on this site from start to date just illustrate your clear need to get a grip.
I never said I was a writer, just that I'm interested in it for my own reasons. Just because people claim to be writers of comedy do they really need to write something super funny every time they sit at their computer when replying to your frankly mad ramblings?
I think you need to have a little rest. Perhaps go out and meet some friends. Forget about the Comedy College, it's forgotten about you.
Oh and Juggles. The person I know who was long listed is in fact, shock horror, a notherner. Playing the North South card is just getting desperate!
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Listen bossyblogger.
I didn't say there was a north south divide, did I? I was questioning how a person from Vietnam only here less than a decade can understand northern humour. Is that correct or not
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"What happens is, that our scripts must totally agree with the humour of the editors that read it, otherwise one has no chance, so for instance, how can my northern humour ever please/align with some snobby effin southern editor that has never, ever been up't north???"
Sounds like the north south divide card to me..... However even if that's not what you meant and it was just more of a xenophobic little rant it's still a little inappropriate and well and truly off point. Especially naming a person - it's just not on.
Anyway I only wanted to say my bit and leave it but you two are WAY too easy, shooting fish and barrels spring to mind however I shall leave you to your comments and let you continue to make fools of yourselves.
Kroggy and Juggles it's over to you.
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Oh, do calm down everyone.
@Juggles. I think you met Mal Young, a famous scouser. I don't know the other person you mention.
@Kroggy. There is only one writing pair on My Family, so I'm not sure that citing them in public would go down well. Are you sure they weren't joking? Things would have to be a bit drastic if eight writers in a room couldn't come up with something funny.
Anyway, I'm Irish, and thus can't understand anyone apart from Graham Linehan and Arthur Matthews.
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@Kroggy
Good afternoon (assuming you lie-in).
Even though your comments may have turned into rants, I have to say I agree with many points you've made. Particularly about reading others work for comparison. That's why I would like to ask you if I could read the sample you sent off to this college. If not, I'll join team babyBlogger!
If you're wondering, I'm not female...
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I bet he didn't even work for the beeb!! I bet he was a gatecrasher LOL
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Michael
You misunderstood my post. I agree that the BBC has done some brilliant and diverse comedy over the last few years, I just miss shows that manage to be both mainstream and high quality. Shows like Only Fools and Horses and One Foot In The Grave. I want more of them.
My point about BBC3 was that it sometimes appears that a disproportionate amount of resources go towards that channel. And above and beyond that, their output is sometimes patronising and insulting to the audience they claim to cater for.
And to everybody else who whines about people whining, you're missing the point of the internet. You get to do a bit of venting, look at some videos on YouTube of Keeley Hawes and/or funny kittens, and before you know it you've got through another day without having to interact with your co-workers. It's great.
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@Micheal - actually - yes, I was only joking about 'The Penguin Book of Jokes' - as they were too.
@all
Oops - I agree with our blog host. This all seems to have got a little out of hand. A then corpulent Micheal Winner waving his arms in a commercial for Car insurance springs to mind.
So, why don't we all leave this room - draw a line under things so far [ I hate to think of babyblogger having to eat all that fish or just being drowned in the barrel by juggles] and return with a new, fresh,supportive, positive approach?
Thoughts? And positively no rants,please.
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This is my first post so be gentle with me.
I was fortunate enough to make the top 15 in this scheme. I have a Masters in screenwriting but have no broadcasting credits. I don't know anyone at the BBC and have had limited success with writersroom. I also live in Manchester. Yet I did quite well.
I do think it's time people moved on. Yes I made the top 15 and yes I was gutted when I didn't make the top 10. But I refuse to cling onto visions of what might have been or criticise the BBC or MJ. This is a fantastic scheme that puts everyone on a level playing field. So I and lots of you didn't make it through. So what? Keep writing and believing in yourself. If the scheme returns next year then you've got months to write and rewrite a new script.
I've been through a bad patch where I doubted myself and my skills as a writer. This scheme has reignited my belief in myself and I'm writing now more than ever.
Only 6 got through. And I'm sure they will do fantastically well. Good luck to them and good luck to the rest of us.
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@ Kroggy
Ranting is so much more fun!
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@selena
Thank you for your good wishes - sorry to hear that you didn't make the last six, genuinely; but it is good to get the fillip and encouragement in your writing.
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Ah, harmony. (Reaches for violin).
@aspie
I think we'd all like to see (and make) shows which rank with the classics. Sadly they don't come along all that often, despite the best endeavours of comedy people inside the BBC and in the independent sector.
I promise that as much effort goes into developing shows for other channels as it does for BBC3. It could be that it's just noisier.
The thing to remember is that much more work is developed than is ever commissioned, and we've all had ideas which we thought were brilliant but haven't been pursued because they haven't fitted a channel strategy or not enough people felt the same way as we did.
Everyone I know that develops work wants to make a show which will be popular, critically acclaimed and touch the hearts of the audience.
Anyroad, as far as the college itself is concerned, we will be announcing the inaugural six people early next week, and I'll blog about that then. We're just sorting out some admin first.
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@Kroggy
Nowt to do with Placebo, mate. Never seen it. And I only liked that line.
I could see JD delivering it in Scrubs very well. Don't know how it was done in the other thing.
So much about how comedy works is dependent on the delivery. Well-written does not mean guaranteed laughs. Who knows how the author saw that delivered, but having had some stuff done myself, I have seen things done totally differently by a director and actor to how I had intended them and seen them fall flat. But as a writer, you don't get the chance to say "wait no, see, if he'd said it like this and then she'd looked like this, then it would have been funny".
I think sometimes writing is judged harshly because of performance. There is at least one very popular sitcom on now that I think is very well written, but that the acting is too hammy and I put most of the blame for that with the director(s). But how many people analyse a sitcom enough to notice the difference? Certainly, nobody outwith the industry or trying to get into the industry, anyway.
My apologies for making no attempt to be at all funny during this post...
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@MrEsheep
Yes, know what you mean about JD in Scrubs and I agree with you whole-heartedly about how actors - or rather actors that have little or no sense of timing - can destroy a well-written line; and it is true that writing can be judged on performance.
Having that control - as a writer - is very important and I can see why Ricky Gervais and Stephen Merchant - in particular - wanted to have total directorial and editorial control over 'The Office' - I do think had it been handed over to another Tristram ( as AA Gill dispargingly calls BBC executives in the Sunday Times) - then it may have looked very different.
Yes, your blog wasn't very funny :) - but it was a good point, well made.
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Hello everyone,
I tried entering this competition, more in hope than in earnest and was unfortunately unsuccessful. Congratulations and well done to those people who did make it.
One of the sketches I wrote I thought was a really original one about a sat nav losing its way, only to find a virtually identical one was shown on Angus Deayton's show earlier this week. It was taken from a show called "Man stroke woman" and predated mine by three years!
Has that happened to anyone else?
Gutted!
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Yes, Phoenix Nights
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Yes, Phoenix Nights
Even down to the detail where he had a horse coming onto the dance floor.....in mine it was a cow cr*ppin' all over the place
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True
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This is strange..I am unable to post my blog which is 2 paragraphs long. So I shall blog piecemeal.
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I think that's the problem and one of the reasons why these conspiracy theories about intellectual theft continue.
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Great minds and all that?
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As a writer I'm trying to hone my skills in the dialogue area as opposed to the 'idea'. Settings, scenarios etc are a dime a dozen whereas our writing skills is what will get us noticed.
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And as someone said upthread, what would be the point of stealing some ones idea if the writing is what wows the producers and commissioners? It's in their best interest to hire a good writer.
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Sorry about the multiple blogs.
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I think dialogue is the easiest. It's storylines that I find really difficult but eventually come up with them.
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Yeah storylines are important but I think the dialogue is what will keep viewers/listeners engaged.
I recently wrote a script and my biggest challenge was getting the dialogue believable and engaging. Isn't this why the re-drafts are important?
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@valkamini
Indeed. I was doing notes for someone yesterday who had an ingenious idea, but the execution was a bit obvious and the dialogue didn't sparkle. It's really having the idea, making it intriguing, and then bringing characters to life so that they're funny people to spend time with. Quite easy when it's outlined in a sentence, quite hard to do over 32 pages. Hearing stuff read is incredibly useful, even if it's people you know doing the reading.
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@ Micheal
Er yeah.. out of interest what was the script about? You know, the one you were writing notes for?
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What about length Micheal. I was shocked to find out that a 30 min script should be 6000/7000 words long but when the dialogue is centre page and the directions all across, it becomes more like 50 pages!!!
When I looked back at my sitcoms etc, none had more than 4500 words and I then wondered is that where I have been going wrong.
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@valk
Not fair to say in case the writer hangs out here. But not untypical of many scripts I see.
@juggs
If you're using film format, a half hour script should come out at around 31/32 pages. Fifty feels like you need to re-examine your formatting.
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Oh that's ok then, I've just installed Celtx, the beeb scriptsmart just wouldn't open on here for some reason. I do like the format and it is so easy just clicking on character or scene heading etc.
I've been struggling all these years with Microsoft Words.
The latest one I have done though has 25 pages but there are silent, visual scenes that take up a few mins.
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Oh dear!
*goes offline to boil head in hot palm oil*
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@ Micheal
But I thought a 30 minute script should be 55-60 pages long. I know I read this somewhere not long ago.
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@ Valkyrie
I guess it can be depend on how many words you put to a page and what type of formatting programme you use. For 'Doctors' the guideline is about 6500 words for a 30min script. So, given your script may have visuals - etc I think it may be more relevant to do a word count rather than a page count and adjust accordingly.
@Juggs,
Had a look at the Celtx - intersting, never heard of it before. I used to use scriptwright which was a Microsft word based programme and moved on to Final Script; but, this Celtx looks very flexible and easy to use - certainly for writing stage work, anyway.
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@valk
Page count depends on formatting and type size. An audience sitcom production script with a wide right margin generally comes out at 65ish pages. A single camera script in film format at, as I said, 32ish. When word counting, it's best to aim at between 6000 (probably a bit under) and 6800 (almost certainly a bit over).
Many writers now use film formatting for both styles of comedy, which saves trees and doesn't at all bother me, but a recent experience here suggests than an audience script which doesn't look like an audience script makes people feel you're pitching a single camera show, which is another hurdle in the way of acceptance.
As a general rule, if you're pitching a script, legibility and clarity is more important than format and font. Writers can get unnecessarily hung up on format, and we're more relaxed here than in America. Let's not get into the great brad debate.
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Ok thanks Kroggy. How are you btw? Hope you're keeping up the good fight re.writing. Hey did you see what I did there?
Yeah yeah I know, it wasn't funny.
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@Micheal,
Great Brad debate? Do you have some wonderful insight on the star and his penchant for a style of formatting that you would be prepared to share with us?
@ Valkyrie
Re.writing? I chuckled. It's Ok - it doesn't have to be funny...I'm working on becoming rant free by 2009.
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I think he's referring to a binding system Kroggy.
But you probably know that. So ignore me.
:)
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@Micheal
Oops only just seen your response so thanks for that.
Right I'm off to do a google on scripts for Film formats.
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Yes, brads are gilt pins used to bind scripts, and are insisted on in America. A few years back, there was a very very lengthy discussion on a message board about them. An amazing expense of energy. But then writers wouldn't be writers if they didn't have something to worry about.
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@IAMP
Thanks but the only Brad binding I know is the Brownian Adhesive Dynamics for stimulating the receptor-mediated binding of viruses.
I just had visions of Mr Jolie petulantly casting down the sides of his latest venture because the right-hand margin was incorrectly indented and demanding that the director 'Get my agent on the phone!'.
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just think they used to write on postage stamps and got 'em accepted
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See you next week. Have good weekends.
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And you
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Any more news Micheal?
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Hello. The press announcement is ready to go, and I'm waiting to find out when I can put it up here.
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ok, ta
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@all,
Just to show that I don't complain all the time, I very much enjoyed Admin pilot screened on BBC 3. Liked the characters and the general tone - thought it was funny and had potential. My only negative comment is that for an inital episode there were just too many characters; it was hard to focus on a story and it runs contrary to the feedback I had received about not 'having too many characters in the first episode.' But, hey ho - I enjoyed it.
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My favourite of them so far was the last one. Delta Forever which seems to have had a strange genesis/evolutution which I would like to know more about.
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@IAMP
Yep, enjoyed it thought it was well-written by the team.
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Delta Forever was very good, I thought. Not laugh a minute stuff, but it worked really well. I'd watch that if it became a series.
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