Israel's election: did anyone win?
Call me old-fashioned if you like, but I do think that after an election you should be able to tell who won.
But after Tuesday's election in Israel, both the foreign minister Tzipi Livni and the former prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu claimed that they had won the general election - and the figures seemed to bear them out.
So let me try to be helpful: all you need to know is that the right-wing won. In the last election three years ago, Mr Netanyahu's Likud party had 12 parliamentary seats (there are 120 seats in total); now it has 27. Ms Livni's centrist Kadima party had 29; now it has 28. The hardline nationalist Yisrael Beiteinu had 11 seats; now it has 15.
And the Labour party, which dominated every Israeli government for the first 30 years of the country's existence, is now languishing in fourth place with just 13 seats.
So who'll be the next Israeli prime minister? Sorry, don't know (but if I had to bet on it, I'd put my money on Bibi Netanyahu). What's more, as far as making progress on negotiating with the Palestinians is concerned, it probably doesn't much matter.
Here's why. Whoever is prime minister, the next government will be either right of centre or a broad-based centrist coalition consisting of Likud, Kadima and Labour (which is the option being much discussed in this morning's Israeli papers.)
Whichever it is, it'll be in no mood to start making concessions to the Palestinians - for the simple reason that Israeli voters are in no mood either. Ever since the second Palestinian intifada, or uprising, began in September 2000, many Israelis have given up on the idea of negotiating a peace deal with the Palestinians.
They just don't believe it can be done. Look what happened when we withdrew from Southern Lebanon, they say. We got Hizbollah and Katyusha rockets. Look what happened when we withdrew from Gaza. We got Hamas and Qassam rockets. So now you want us to withdraw from the West Bank? No, thanks.
(Critics argue that in both Lebanon and Gaza, the Israeli withdrawals were carried out unilaterally, which could be why they ended in tears.)
A word about Yisrael Beiteinu and its controversial leader Avigdor Lieberman. Its main election promise was to make all Israeli citizens, whether Jewish or non-Jewish (about one-fifth of Israelis are Christian or Muslim Arab Palestinians), swear an oath of loyalty to Israel as a Jewish state. If they refused, they would be denied the right to vote, stripped of their citizenship, but not expelled from the country.
In addition, the party argued that Israel should be prepared to give up large chunks of land where Arab Palestinian Israelis live, in return for large chunks of the West Bank where Israeli settlers live. In a nut-shell: don't move the people, just move the borders.
And there's more: Yisrael Beiteinu wants to legalise civil marriages (at present, marriages between Jews are recognised only if they are carried out by a rabbi), and liberalise the laws on selling non-kosher food. (A lot of Israel's Russian immigrants, from whom the party derives most of its support, don't observe traditional Jewish dietary laws.)
Not all of that fits into the conventional notion of what is right-wing in Israel. Sometimes labels don't help much. I'm told that Mr Lieberman and Ms Livni are closer than you might think, especially on the marriage and kosher issues - so don't discount the possibility that if Kadima do get the chance to try to put together a coalition, they'll start by talking to Mr Lieberman.
Confused? So are Israelis. Confused, disillusioned, depressed and pessimistic. When Barack Obama was campaigning for the US presidency, he said voters should choose hope rather than fear. Many of the Israelis I've been talking to over the past few days seem to have done exactly the opposite.
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Whatever the complexion of the new Israeli administration, it will be forced to make a number of unilateral concessions quite quickly as the humanitarian crisis in Gaza worsens.
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Mr. Lustig, I believe it was one of your own journalists who made the point that major concessions by the Israelis to the Arabs occurred with right wing leaders in power, e.g. the Sinai was handed to Egypt under Menachem Begin and Gaza to the Palestinians under Ariel Sharon.
So I don't buy the implication in your post that only the left would represent hope for peace in this conflict. And I also don't buy the implication that only the Israelis are required to make concessions for peace, as the Israel-basher in the first comment also indicated.
I sometime wonder whether anyone at the BBC even knows anything about the obligations of the Arab side of the conflict, as laid out in UN resolution 242 and the Quartet's Road Map. I certainly never hear these obligations mentioned on the BBC.
If you were an Israeli, surrounded by bloodthirsty enemies who are implacably opposed to your very existence and who will not make one single compromise for peace, you might also be a little less than optimistic at times.
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2 TooTrue
Why do you keep making the same discredited points, as though one day someone may take you seriously?. You know quite well that Begin and Sharon only made their 'concessions' for tactical reasons because they both wanted settlements on the West Bank.
Far from your suggestion that peace is possible with the Israeli right-wing, it would only be so if the Palestinians disappeared and that is not going to happen. The militant Zionists will not accept a two-state solution because they will not allow Palestinians to live autonomously next door to them and they certainly wont accept a one state solution because they are afraid that one day the Palestinians may form a majority. Therefore the ONLY prospect with a right wing government is continuous conflict, which they will settle for as long as the Palestinians do not extract too high a price. See this:-
The state.... must see the sword as the main if not the only, instrument with which to keep its morale high and to retain its moral tension. Toward this end it may, no it MUST invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the method of provocation and revenge.... And above all, let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space.
-From the diary of Moshe Sharret (Israel's Foreign Minister 1948-1956, Prime Minister 1954-1956), quoting Army Chief of Staff Moshe Dayan, May, 1955
You mentioned resolution 242 and the responsibilities of the Arabs. 242 is copied below and anyone with any common sense can see that the major undertakings are conferred upon Israel and if they obeyed even the first of those, the conflict could be ended tomorrow.
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"Critics argue that in both Lebanon and Gaza, the Israeli withdrawals were carried out unilaterally, which could be why they ended in tears."
This is a rationalization trying to keep alive the false doctrine that ceding land will bring peace. There isn't much more the Israelis dare give back. Without the West bank, the borders of Israel would be almost impossible to defend militarily in an attack. The country would revert to being 9 miles wide again at one point. Besides, there are now half a million Israelis living there and they aren't going anywhere. This is not Gaza where only 10 thousand settlers had to be moved. Then there is East Jerusalem where the Jews holiest shrine is. When it was under the control of the Arabs, the weren't allowed to go there. Why should they even consider taking a chance that it won't happen again. And finally there's the Golan heights. Sparsely populated, it isn't good for anything except a future military attack on Israel through Syria. Internationnal guarantees have proven worthless. It was guaranteed when Israel left Lebanon that Hezbollah would be disarmed. Instead they become much more heavily armed than ever. I think the Palestinians have gotten all the land they are going to get.
If the Israelis were smart, they'd be preparing for the next war which they should fight on their own terms and at their own time of choosing. It's going to involve Iran and it will be a humdinger. The longer Isreal waits, the worse it will be for them. I wonder deep down in their hearts, how many of Israel's citizens and leaders know that and have resigned themselves to it. What are they waiting for, America to attack Iran first?
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3. Jackturk,
Since you miraculously managed an entire post without too many insults, I'll respond.
I'm familiar with 242. Israel is required to withdraw from "territories" and not all the territories. The Arabs, simply put, are required to stop killing Jews. This they cannot, or will not do.
I note that you have skirted the question of the Road Map. I guess that's because Arab obligations are a little more clearly laid out there.
When you imagine that the conflict will immediately cease the minute Israel withdraws to indefensible boundaries you show a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature and aims of Arab terrorism. Alternatively, you deliberately obfuscate the issue.
Again, Israel withdrew from every last square inch of Gaza. Palestinian terrorists responded with the almost immediate resumption of rocket fire on Israeli civilians. Those who claim that the rockets were a response to the "blockade" conveniently ignore the fact that the terrorists made no attempt to negotiate the issue but simply succumbed to their obsession to spill Jewish blood. They also ignore the fact that the Gaza crossings were open to two-way traffic before the 'Second Intifada' and that relations were approaching normality with Gazans streaming into Israel to work and Israelis shopping in Gaza.
Given the the nature and intent of Arab terrorism, it would be suicidal for Israel to withdraw from Judea and Samaria, your 'West Bank'. I note that you ignore the fact that Israel withdrew from a few settlements at the same time as Gaza. Can't give Israel any credit, right?
However, it would make no difference if Israel withdrew to the Tel Aviv beachfront. Read the Hamas Charter.
It's really bad debating practice to quote from people without supplying a link to your source. Many quotes from Israeli leaders have been taken out of context. What are you trying to hide? Or is it just that you have such a thick Israel-bashing file that you can't recall where that bit came from?
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The aim of the Arabs is the same as it has always been, to eliminate the state of Israel. Nothing has ever changed except the tactics and the rhetoric. I must say that there are an awful lot of Israelis who are remarkably stupid because they are just unwilling to see it. They think that somehow if they just talk about it rationally, they "can work it out" in some sort of peaceful settlement. But Israelis are not dealing with rational people. They are like a man locked in a cage with a psychopathic killer who has only one thing on his mind. And when you realize that it's you or him and there are no other choices, the only thing to do is to kill him before he kills you. For some unexplainable reason, Jews seem to have a problem with the instinct to survive. I think it's a cultural thing, not genetic. Perhaps some of them are starting to wake up.
BTW, if I were Israel's govenment, I wouldn't count on the USA always being there for them. America walked away from its allies in Vietnam and they paid a heavy price after America left. Same looks to be about to happen to the Iraqis who were America's allies in the insurgency. Israel must understand that ultimately, it is repsonsible for its own survival, its own defense, and that if it takes most of what the rest of the world says about it seriously, it will one day be wiped out. It is much better to be feared as potentially violent and ruthless like Russia has been throughout history rather than despised for being weak and the perfect victims the way the Jews have been throughout history. Why can't Jews bring themselves to slaughter their enemies mercilessly when they have the upper hand like everyone else did?
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I'm afraid you are like so many die-hard militant Zionist supporters, you see the truth as an insult and cannot even contemplate that any blame could be attached to Israel despite the fact that they have just slaughtered more than 1300 Gazans, 400 of them children, many of them shot in the head or the back from close range in the most brutal and cynical act of aggression. The more that you try to defend the militant Zionists, the more it encourages others to look at the violence and terrorism that they used to establish Israel in the first place.
In the words of Gerald Kaufman, "the Israelis are not simply war criminals, they're fools"
I didn't skirt around the road map, I didn't bother to mention it because if Israel complied with 242, the road map wouldn't even be necessary.
You say that 242 only refers to 'territories' not 'all the territories' what it says is:-
"Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict" which seems clear enough to me.
"Israel withdrew from every last square inch of Gaza"..... "Can't give Israel any credit, right?"
No doubt you consider it to be extremely noble of Israel to move out of Gaza for tactical reasons whilst still building settlements on the West Bank. If squatters occupied your house but graciously agreed to give you back one room whilst building their own extension on the back you'd probably still be quite annoyed to say the least!
"However, it would make no difference if Israel withdrew to the Tel Aviv beachfront. Read the Hamas Charter"
You like to perpetuate this view that it is impossible to reach a peace settlement with Hamas. If Israel had genuinely wanted a peace settlement, they could have had one a long time ago, see this:- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5121164.stm
The truth is that the militant Zionists do not want a peace settlement, they want to occupy the whole of 'Palestine':-
"The Jewish people have always regarded, and will continue to regard Palestine as a whole, as a single country which is theirs in a national sense and will become theirs once again. No Jew will accept partition as a just and rightful solution" – David Ben Gurion, Palestine Post July 15th 1937. – Another Zionist quote from my "Israel-Bashing file"
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Robin,
Thank you for that summary of the present positions in israeli politics.
Your piece accurately reflects almost 100% of everything I have read about the elections, the people involved and the quandries facing the Israelis.
I'd also like to thank True Too for explainging some of the background to the present events.
It's a shame the BBC never explains things and only indulges in Jeremy Bowen -type rhetoric.
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8. SteveGNyc,
Thanks for that. I try to counteract the Israel bashing on these blogs by pointing out facts. For example, the wording of UN Resolution 242 was deliberately chosen to allow for at least some flexibility regarding the question of occupation. This is why Israel is required to withdraw from territories rather than the territories, as you can see from point 1) i of jackturk's copy and paste job at comment no. 3.
In withdrawing from Gaza, Israel complied with 242 at least as far as Gaza was concerned. The Israel bashers have no answer to this fact, as they have no answer to the fact that every rocket fired by Hamas and other terrorists from Gaza lands in undisputed Israel - i.e. Israel within the 1949 Armistice lines. I have had debates with people who think that these rockets are landing in occupied Palestinian territory - probably because of ignorance but perhaps because they think of the whole of Israel as such.
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7. Jackturk,
You really should try to make some effort to restrain yourself. If any children really were deliberately shot in the back and head at close range that would have been by Hamas, not Israel. And if you can bear to look at any evidence from the Israeli side, the IDF has a somewhat different take on the death toll reported by the Palestinians.
So because 242 existed before the Roadmap it's not necessary to base anything on the Roadmap? What a weird argument. It is as weird as your "quote" from Ben Gurion. If he did in fact say that in 1937, which I doubt, ten years later Israel accepted the UN partition proposal, as you probably know. In fact, Ben Gurion said that Israel would accept a state the size of a postage stamp.
Way back then, if the Arabs had also accepted the proposal, instead of rejecting it and going to war, there could have been peace and they could have had their state.
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TrueToo
If you agree with Resolution 242 then you agree with the pre-1967 borders. That puts you in agreement with the Arab League, Fatah, and Hamas! You can quote Hamas' three decades old charter as much as you want - they support the Arab League proposal. You know fully well that there was a cease-fire proposed by Hamas political leader Khaled Mishal a few days before Israel launched its attack on December 27.
You have been told before that Sharon's unilateral withdrawal of 8,000 settlers in Gaza was quickly followed by 12,000 new settlements in the West Bank which goes against the spirit of 242!
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10 TrueToo
You really should try to make some effort to restrain yourself. If any children really were deliberately shot in the back and head at close range that would have been by Hamas
Given the way you have shrugged off the IDF's barbaric actions in Gaza in the past, your lack of moral restraint in the above comment is not surprising.
"Defence for Children International (DCI) is an independent non-governmental organisation set up during the International Year of the Child (1979) to ensure on-going, practical, systematic and concerted international and national action specially directed towards promoting and protecting the rights of the child" - Wikipedia
So because 242 existed before the Roadmap it's not necessary to base anything on the Roadmap? What a weird argument. It is as weird as your "quote" from Ben Gurion.
If you think logic is weird then you need a lesson. If the first '242' was implemented, then there would have been no need for the second the 'Road Map' - get it?
And as for the quote from Ben Gurion, what's the point of you asking for references if you don't follow them up?
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The Arabs didn't seem to think much of the 1967 borders, either.
The invasion of Israel by a number of fully equipped Arab armies is a good indication of that.
Egypt, Jordan, and Syria started attacks with full armies and air forces. The nations of Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Tunisia, Morocco and Algeria also contributed troops and arms to the Arab forces.[
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I keep hearing about these 400 damned women and children yet I can't get a straight answer out of any of you Brits how you can make your outrageous accusations without first explaining why it was okay for the RAF to bomb hundreds of thousands of German civilians to their deaths during WWII and to wipe out many of the major cultural treasures of German civilization that was a legacy that belonged to the whole world. Even the US took Kyoto I think off the list of targets for a nuclear attck because that would have done irreparable damage to the cultural legacy of Japan.
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The IDF says that at least 65% of those killed in their attacks were armed Hamas combatants.
Considering Hamas was using the Palestinian population as involuntary human shield 'martyrs', the fact that only 400 were killed is notable.
Hamas could have prevented the IDF from moving against them any time by simply stopping firing rockets into civilian areas in Israel.
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14 MarcusBarbarius
Marcus, all of this obsession with us Brits is obviously taking its toll on your concentration. If you had bothered to check out my reply 55 on the previous thread you would have seen the answer but just to save you the trouble, here is part of it:-
In fact, you are following advice from 'high command':-
Regarding your point about the Japanese cultural legacy, your facetiousness is noted vis-a-vis Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
11. dceilar
I never said I support Resolution 242. It is immoral and unjust to require a country that has been through two wars and constant terror attacks aimed at destroying it to return territory it has conquered in repelling these genocidal attacks. Nazi Germany lost a considerable amount of territory though its brutal and unprovoked invasions of other countries. But the Arab countries, who tried to complete Hitler's work, have cleverly engineered the situation so that they are required to pay little or no price for their invasions and attempts to annihilate Israel.
What I am saying is that in 2005 Israel did what the Arabs and much of the 'International community' is mostly demanding of it, at least in terms of the border with Gaza, by completely withdrawing to within the 1949 Armistice lines, i.e. pre-1967 Israel. Israel is not required to withdraw from all the territories, as I explained in comment no. 9.
Sharon's unilateral withdrawal of 8,000 settlers in Gaza was quickly followed by 12,000 new settlements in the West Bank.
You sure about that? Looks like the propaganda is getting out of hand.
The information that I have is that Meshaal instructed Hamas in Gaza not to renew the cease-fire when it came up for renewal in December. The Gaza Hamas leaders were furious with Meshaal because they claimed they were not ready for the subsequent Israeli assault. But these questions are academic. The only cease-fire that Hamas has ever been interested in is one in which to regroup and re-arm for the next terror assault on Israel. The Charter may be old, but Hamas has never revoked it. Hamas has no interest in Israel withdrawing to this or that border. It claims the whole of Israel. I'm not sure why you have difficulty with that fact.
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17 MarcusBarbarius
Marcus, you are obviously intelligent and probably well educated but unfortunately you are primitive.
The problem with primitive thinkers is they tend to see issues in black and white, or as that other well known "thinker" George Bush put it, "with us or against us".
One of the characteristics of primitive thinkers is that force or violence comes very near to the top of their self-limiting list of options when faced with life's problems. 'Diplomacy' and 'discussion' are words absent from their lexicon.
As someone once said, "if we all followed the advice of "an eye for an eye" the world would be full of blind people"!
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12. Jackturk,
You can relax. Your 242, if you had bothered to check, is incorporated in the Roadmap, as I thought it would be. So are other agreements.
Have you accessed the IDF information on the fatalities in Gaza yet? Their investigation is not complete but they have said that 288 women and children under 16 were killed. I'm not "shrugging off" anything. You are the one who will not debate or even access any information that doesn't come from the Israel-bashing side.
I will check out the Ben Gurion quote. What I was asking for, as you probably know, is which propaganda site you got the information from. But the Palestine Post is at least something to work with.
I will also check out your Defence for Children International and their highly-suspect information. Israel "snipers" do not shoot children. Palestinian ones, on the other hand, do. I'm sure you know that.
I'm busy right now. There's another meeting of the Committee for a Greater Israel.
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20 TrueToo
Before I answer you, some years ago I became interested in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict and had the distinct impression that it could escalate to involve large parts of the world. I had been to Israel and to Arab countries and to be honest, during normal conversation, I couldn't really tell a Jew from a Muslim. I therefore decided to try and find out as much as I could about it from a totally neutral standpoint.
Looking at propaganda from both sides and bearing in mind the history and persecution of Jews, I was astounded at how much anti-Semitism there was and I can fully understand how some Jewish people can become paranoid when they see any criticism of Israel and therefore immediately dismiss it as anti-Semitism. Even after explaining I follow no religion or political party, Marcus said I was anti-Semitic without even knowing it!
During my research, I realised that there was blame on both sides, but for reasons which have been well documented in these and other blogs, it is by no means equal blame. The concept of Zionism is flawed but it has been sold to and accepted by millions of Jewish people as a benign and noble aspiration. This is why, even though originally many more Jews were sceptical of its aims, it now has such a large following in Israel but seems to be declining elsewhere.
Back to your post:-
"Have you accessed the IDF information on the fatalities in Gaza yet?"
The answer is a definite NO, why? simple, because they lie.
There are many more examples which I could have cited.
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Jacktref, you said it yourself, I'm a barbarian. Well not really. More like a savage. Violence when called for is not near the top of my list, it's at the top. Diplomacy in situations where you have an irrational implacable enemy the way the Zionist Jews have is a waste of precious time, even a dangerous one if you are strong and the other side is weak but could grow stronger. That is why I wrote two letters to President Bush imploring him to launch a pre-emptive nuclear strike against Iran. His failure to listen will cost a lot of good people dearly. Obama seems to be under some delusion that he can talk to Ahmadinejad and his Ayatollah bosses and come to some amicable agreement. This will be as fruitless as Chamberlain's negotiation with Hitler was. It will result in a worthless scrap of paper, a treaty. The parallel could hardly be more striking. In chess as in war, you learn quickly that the way to win is to kill the other guy's king. Anything less and you could still lose. You don't win wars by winning hearts and minds, you win them by finding and killing the enemy faster and more efficiently than he can find and kill you. And when the last of them is gone or they lose the will to fight on, the war is over, not one moment before. Your Moslem friends still have plenty of fight left in them. All this talk about rebuilding Gaza is utter foolishness. It is inevitable that Israel will only have to bomb it again, probably more than once. Armed resistance, armed struggle, code phrases for terrorism on the part of the Arabs will have to be broken before there is any real peace. Until then, people on both sides will go on dying. I see no reason why the majority of them shouldn't be on the Arab side. They're the ones perpetuating the conflict.
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22 MarcusBarbarious
:-) :-) What an awfully tortured life you must lead, no one, not even President Bush has listened to you.
Never mind, you were probably just born too late, I'm sure you would have been more at home with 'Ivan the Terrible', although by your standards he would probably be 'Ivan the Timid'.
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Jacktref;
Ivan the Terrible? You must have read my reply to Webaliceinwonderland on Mark Mardell's blog. Nah, according to her, Ivan was all bark and no bite. A wuss at heart. I'm just a little to the right of Ghengis Khan.
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"Its main election promise was to make all Israeli citizens, whether Jewish or non-Jewish (about one-fifth of Israelis are Christian or Muslim Arab Palestinians), swear an oath of loyalty to Israel as a Jewish state. If they refused, they would be denied the right to vote, stripped of their citizenship, but not expelled from the country."
I half-expect the "EU" to try something equivalent with us one day.
If they put enough pressure on me, I will swear that oath of loyalty, but I won't mean it.
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SuffolkBoy2, at least you are smart enough to realize those would just be words. I'll bet most Arab Iraelis wouldn't even do that. But when you swear an oath in this way, even though you are lying at the time, there is a small part of you that has made a concession. It's a form of psychological subversion. It may be a technique used in brainwashing.
Like America in all conflicts since WWII, Israel hasn't declared a formal state of war. Once a war has been declared legally, those who advocate for the other side such as Arab Israelis who openly advocate the victory of Hamas are traitors guilty of treason and subject to whatever punishment Israeli law proscribes for that crime. In most countries, they probably just take you out and shoot you, especially in the developing world. Example, what Argentina under the military dictatorship did to Communists. But they didn't even have trials.
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21. Jackturk,
You fool nobody with the apparently reasonable first half of your post which is belied by the last sentence. I believe the officer involved in that incident is under investigation by the IDF. You know very well that for every rare occasion that an Israeli soldier snaps under pressure and kills a civilian there are hundreds of incidents of Palestinian terrorists deliberately planning and setting out to kill Israeli civilians. This is not debatable. It is all in the record for anyone to check. Making a tremendous amount of noise about it, as you do, wont change a thing.
Your hostility to Israel is noted. You claim to be against Palestinian terrorism but you only ever make that claim in the same breath as you bash Israel. You would certainly never go on a Palestinian bashing mission as you obviously delight in doing here against the Israelis. That exposes your hypocrisy.
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The BBC should remember that impartial reporting, and only reporting the 'facts' not 'interpreting' the 'facts', is the first rule of journalism.
It seems that attempting a positive story on Israel by the BBC is impossible, you try to paint the election results as the worst possible outcome, you seem to suggest that a right wing coalition would automatically refuse any requests from the Palestinians, this goes against the historical evidence, so I don't understand why you suggest that this would happen?.
Israel has a thriving democracy, in the Middle East that is a rare thing, exactly how many other countries in the region is the right to vote open to both sexes?, I cannot recall a BBC debate on the lack of rights that women have in the Middle East.
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Rustigjongens;
Despite BBC's claims to be impartial, many observers including me believe that BBC has an agenda which biases their reporting of the news. They appear to have a left wing continental Europe anti America anti Israel position on most things and it shows in their reporting. That may be what the still secret Balen Report says. BBC has been fighting a battle to keep it secret in the British courts and I think there is something recently in the news to the effect that it may have to be made public.
One proof is that BBC's reporter Alan Johnston who disappeared from public view in Gaza two years ago and didn't re-emerge for 4 months (it was believed he was kidnapped but that was not clear to me in the usual sense. I have serious suspicions about it.) was described publically as "a friend of the Palestinian People" by his friends and close associates including his own father. How can a friend be an objective impartial reporter about those he has befriended? It was also suspicious that every other news organization had pulled their reporters out of Gaza because it was too dangerous. Johnston had been writing the same story over and over again in endless variants describing the dire circumstances of some Palestinians. We'd gotten that message long before he was supposedly kidnapped and long before he could have left safely. I've gotten no explanation of why BBC kept him there expecting he might be kidnapped despite numerous inquiries.
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27 TrueToo
In citing the case of the murder of little Iman al-Hams, I was pointing to the lies of members of the IDF as a reason for not trusting their statements. Incidentally she wasn't shot by the IDF captain because he snapped, she was shot in cold blood. As I said, there are many more incidents which I could have related.
In fact, if anyone can be said to have snapped, it would be the Palestinians in their pressure-cooker environment, under constant threat from the IDF.
It is fairly obvious from your weak response to my post and your contention that I indulge in "Israel bashing" that it is my reference to Zionism as a flawed policy that upsets you most. It is impossible for you to accept that a belief which you have probably held for a lifetime could be wrong.
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It seems to me that the policy of Zionism has succeeded brilliantly. A Jewish state has existed for the last 61 years although at times precariously. It is more secure now than it's been in the past. Today it is believed to be somewhere between the third and sixth largest nuclear power in the world which means its pawn has become a queen and has the power of life and death over the entire human race just like the other major nuclear powers. That ability gives it the power to dictate terms to the world which it will find acceptable for its future existance. Its unsaid policy says to everyone else, if we don't survive neither will you. Both the Middle East and Europe are extremely vulnerable. For example, imagine the implications for Europe should a single tactical nuclear weapon be used to wipe away the Suez Canal. Ironically, this doomsday last farewell target for Israel is likely one of al Qaeda's targets it would like to take out and for the same reason. European nations have few real friends around the world and they don't exactly always get along very well among each other even within the context of the EU.
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#18 TrueToo
Nazi Germany lost a considerable amount of territory though its brutal and unprovoked invasions of other countries.
Strange comparison you cite. Germany was spilt into two states if my history serves me correctly. If we treat both East and west Germany as one land we will see Germany actually lost no land as a consequence of WWII - in fact they retained full control of the Rhineland as per against the 1919 Versailles Treaty!
The land the Nazis occupied was of course handed back to the locals - except for the Stalin controlled countries. Israel is in unpleasant company in this regard.
As you mention Nazis: your favourite terrorists, the Stern Gang, seemed happy to be involved with the Nazis - just as long as they attained their lovely 'promised land'!
What I am saying is that in 2005 Israel did what the Arabs and much of the 'International community' is mostly demanding of it, at least in terms of the border with Gaza, by completely withdrawing to within the 1949 Armistice lines, i.e. pre-1967 Israel.
Israel has not completely withdrawn from the Gaza Strip - it is very much in control of it. Just because these settlers have been moved - mostly to the West Banks and an extra 4,000 others - it doesn't mean that Israel has 'withdrawn'! It is an Israeli controlled entity.
And yes, I am sure about 12,000 new settlements being built in the West Bank not long after the Gaza 'withdrawal'. You are being deliberately obtuse about it because it doesn't fit into indefensible belief system.
So do you accept the fact that Hamas observed the ceasefire, and that it was Israel that broke it - if you look at past agreements Israel has with Palestinians you will see that this is the norm.
Given that you only post on the BBC websites when Israel and Palestine pop up and your use sophistry, buttressed with agitprop, you are an apologist for state terror.
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Cecilia, perhaps the UK should retreat beyond the point of Hadrian's Wall and the remaining territory returned to Rome. Perhaps all Americans should return to where their ancestors came from and return North America to the natives who were there before Columbus landed. Times change. Borders change. Populations shift. Arabia's dream of wiping out Israel is over. If the treaties, international laws, UN Charter were any more than worthless scraps of paper, all of your anti American and anti Israeli friends would have been spending their lives in prison in the Hague for a long time by now. Get over it. There will be only one state, Israel. Gaza will be dealt with somehow if anyone living there survives what Hamas has done to it and the West bank will go back to Jordan and that will be the end of it. A Palestinian state would be a terrorist state in a full state of war with Israel within months of being created as Iranian arms poured in. Who is anyone kidding. The rest is just so much talk for public consumption. Even Egypt doesn't want to see it.
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#33 Marcus Erronous
Cecilia, perhaps the UK should retreat beyond the point of Hadrian's Wall and the remaining territory returned to Rome.
Far be it from me to correct you in your erroneous ways Marcus, but Hadrain's Wall was built to keep other Britons out of Roman occupied territory! Perhaps they built it to keep the Pict terrorists out and an attempt to make their occupation permanent! Neither worked!
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Cecilia, you missed the point entirely. By the standards of the day, the Romans were civilized, the Britons were the barbarians. By today's standards, it's the Israelis who are the civilized people, it's the Arabs who are the barbarians. Roman legions weren't boy scouts. They were far more brutal, far more savage than the Israelis are. In fact, they'd kill anyone on the slightest pretext. No Hague ICC in those days though. BTW, when is the ICC going to indict Hyena, Bin Laden, and all of the other Islamic terrorists?
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31,35 MarcusBararius
"It seems to me that the policy of Zionism has succeeded brilliantly"
I didn't say it wasn't successful, I said it was flawed. There have been many entities in the past that were successful for a period but are now defunct, as Zionism will be eventually.
"They were far more brutal, far more savage than the Israelis are."
The savagery that dare not speak its name eh Marcus! You will have many Zionists who wish to keep their savagery under wraps squirming at that remark - well done :-).
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An interesting video giving the background to the formation of Israel and possible reasons why the BBC refused to broadcast the appeal can be seen here:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEkEVcj-O9o Look out for part two at the end.
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MarcusBararius
I imagine, marcus or whatever our name is, from your warlike diatribe, that you have never served as a soldier! I don't include service with that band of armed brigands called the IDF as soldiering!!
It is typical of warmongering cowards to call for others to fight and die for the ideals that they are afraid to die for themselves!!
Judging by a great number of the posts on this blog the real losers of the Israeli election will be the world!!! It will be up to thye world community to pick up the pieces from the appalling mess Israel has made in its own backyard!
Israel, in the way it currently conducts itself, is not only a threat to Palestinians but is threatening the security of Jews throughout the world!!
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35. At 12:16pm on 16 Feb 2009, MarcusIdioticusII wrote:
'Cecilia, you missed the point entirely. By the standards of the day, the Romans were civilized, the Britons were the barbarians.'
I wonder when the Israeli's are going to start crucifying Palestinians and feeding them to the lions in the arena.
35. At 12:16pm on 16 Feb 2009, MarcusIdioticusII wrote:
'By today's standards, it's the Israelis who are the civilized people, it's the Arabs who are the barbarians.'
If the Palestinians are barbaric because Hamas fires rockets into Israel, then why not give them some cluster bombs, some white phosphorous and a state of the art delivery system. That way they can then decommission their ineffective rockets and join civilised societies like Israel who claim not to target civilians.
35. At 12:16pm on 16 Feb 2009, MarcusIdioticusII wrote:
'Roman legions weren't boy scouts. They were far more brutal, far more savage than the Israelis are. In fact, they'd kill anyone on the slightest pretext. No Hague ICC in those days though.'
This total absence of accountability must make Israeli war criminals really jealous.
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Jay724
"Judging by a great number of the posts on this blog the real losers of the Israeli election will be the world!!! It will be up to thye world community to pick up the pieces from the appalling mess Israel has made in its own backyard!"
I don't give a fig.
don'tcomeback
"I wonder when the Israeli's are going to start crucifying Palestinians and feeding them to the lions in the arena."
Let me know when tickets go on sale.
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"TEL AVIV // No one is more surprised than Shlomo Sand that his latest academic work has spent 19 weeks on Israel’s bestseller list – and that success has come to the history professor despite his book challenging Israel’s biggest taboo.
Dr Sand argues that the idea of a Jewish nation – whose need for a safe haven was originally used to justify the founding of the state of Israel – is a myth invented little more than a century ago.
An expert on European history at Tel Aviv University, Dr Sand drew on extensive historical and archaeological research to support not only this claim but several more – all equally controversial.
In addition, he argues that the Jews were never exiled from the Holy Land, that most of today’s Jews have no historical connection to the land called Israel* and that the only political solution to the country’s conflict with the Palestinians is to abolish the Jewish state." http://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0339.htm#Top
*In fact, a census shows that only 20% of Israeli Jews were actually born there, roughly the same as the indigenous Arab population. History indicates that indigenous Jews and Arabs lived perfectly peacefully together before the scourge of Zionism was introduced.
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#41 Jack
Namaste
That's an interesting article you linked to. What I also found interesting, other than what you mentioned, was towards the end:
"It is not taught in Israeli schools but most of the early Zionist leaders, including David Ben Gurion, believed that the Palestinians were the descendants of the area's original Jews. They believed the Jews had later converted to Islam."
Dr Sand attributed his colleagues' reticence to engage with him to an implicit acknowledgement by many that the whole edifice of "Jewish history" taught at Israeli universities is built like a house of cards.
The problem with the teaching of history in Israel, Dr Sand said, dates to a decision in the 1930s to separate history into two disciplines: general history and Jewish history. Jewish history was assumed to need its own field of study because Jewish experience was considered unique.
"There’s no Jewish department of politics or sociology at the universities. Only history is taught in this way, and it has allowed specialists in Jewish history to live in a very insular and conservative world where they are not touched by modern developments in historical research.
"I’ve been criticised in Israel for writing about Jewish history when European history is my speciality. But a book like this needed a historian who is familiar with the standard concepts of historical inquiry used by academia in the rest of the world."
Wikipedia has some more info about him.
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So that was your point all along Jacktref and I knew it. The Jews don't have a right to a state of their own and the Arabs were justified in whatever they did to prevent one from being created and doing whateve they could to destroy it once it was. English have a right to a state. French have a right to a state. Chinese have a right to a state. Some people do and some people don't. Kurds don't. But then Europe hasn't been trying to exterminate Kurds for over a thousand years. And when Jews could not be completely killed off through incitement of individuals to kill them, by government prgroms, inquisitions, forced ethnic cleansing as in Spain in 1492, the German government took it upon itself to do the job directly, not just in Germany but all over Europe by conquering it first. Of course we now have an admission from the French government within the last few days that they were complicit in deportation of Jews to German death camps without any coercion by the German government. And still they have no right to a homeland where they can be safe. And you and others wonder why I detest Europe so much. So in sum, Jews have no right to live.
As one of the world's largest nuclear powers, Jews have within their own power the ability to deny everyone else to have the right to live. And if pushed to the wall where they face extinction again, this time I have no doubt that they will uise that ability. Even you must see the truth in that Jacktref. Then if you do, one thing you have in common with the Arabs is that they hate the Jews more than you love your own life and anyone close to you because it is certain that you and they will die too. Personally, I'd prefer to let them have their little spit of land and live my own life. I have no desire to die because you and millions like you want to see all Jews dead. Were your kind to pass from the scene, that would be a different matter. I wouldn't shed even one tear.
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43 MarcusBarbarius
A ha Marcus, I see you've rumbled me.
I thought that, unlike you of course and your open desire to destroy the Palestinians, I'd kept my secret desire to see the Jews wiped out pretty well covered. I see I've underestimated your amazing powers of deduction.
Oh and by the way, could you be shooting the messenger because you don't like the message???
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43. At 12:23pm on 17 Feb 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
'As one of the world's largest nuclear powers, Jews have within their own power the ability to deny everyone else to have the right to live. And if pushed to the wall where they face extinction again, this time I have no doubt that they will uise that ability.'
I sincerely hope that by the time you've grown up and are old enough to vote you will have learnt that life is not all about playing with guns and 'blowing people away'!
Meanwhile leave this blog to adults, go back to your playstation and fantasise about nuking women and children@
Life is not a game, one day when you are old enough to have a wife and children of your own you may just understand this!!
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Here's another article from Schlomo Sand called Israel deliberately forgets its history.
The discoveries made by the "new archaeology" discredited a great exodus in the 13th century BC. Moses could not have led the Hebrews out of Egypt into the Promised Land, for the good reason that the latter was Egyptian territory at the time. And there is no trace of either a slave revolt against the pharaonic empire or of a sudden conquest of Canaan by outsiders.
Nor is there any trace or memory of the magnificent kingdom of David and Solomon. Recent discoveries point to the existence, at the time, of two small kingdoms: Israel, the more powerful, and Judah, the future Judea. The general population of Judah did not go into 6th century BC exile: only its political and intellectual elite were forced to settle in Babylon. This decisive encounter with Persian religion gave birth to Jewish monotheism.
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45 Jay :-)
46 DC
Interesting - and the walls came tumbling down!
You'd better duck, Marcus is around the corner with his missile launcher.
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@ dceilar
Attributing monotheist Judaism to the Persians of the Babylonian Exile period is a rather grand (unsupported) assumption.
It has been known for a long, long time that most of the Jews did not go to Babylon (perhaps not to you?...Surprise!).
The final conclusion of dceilar's assertions is that the Jews and their state somehow did not exist before the Romans marched in.
As the Roman legions approached, there suddenly appeared millions of Jews, their cities, fields, and infrastructure made to look like it had been there for over a thousand years.
These views are a good illustration of how anti-Jewish hatred will blind you to even the most established archeologically proven facts.
In future postings, will you be having a go at the falsity of Evolution?
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48 Steve
Ancient history probably has some bearing on the present conflict, even if it is only because the Zionists use it to prop up their case. You can't therefore legitimately criticise anyone who examines that case and finds it somewhat wanting, by saying that they have an anti-Jewish hatred.
By the way, I don't recall DC making any 'assertions' the views were of Professor Schlomo Sand a Jew, who according to you, must be anti-Jewish.
A little bit of paranoia creeping in there don't you think?
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#48 Steve
These are not my 'assertions' but reseacrh carried out by Prof of history Shlomo Sands at Tel Aviv University.
Attributing monotheist Judaism to the Persians of the Babylonian Exile period is a rather grand (unsupported) assumption.
Much of the key concepts in Abrahamic religions were lifted from the Zoroastrians. Monotheism is one that you mentioned, but also the tale of the great flood - the old testament added the character Noah into the tale.
It has been known for a long, long time that most of the Jews did not go to Babylon (perhaps not to you?...Surprise!).
If you read the article by Sand he says that there was no exile after 70 AD.
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A group of (largely) Jewish historians often referred to as as 'The New Historians' are revising Israel's heavily fabricated history. Notably, much of their primary source material comes from declassified Israeli government papers!
Avi Shlaim described the New Historians differences from the "official history" in the following terms,
- The official version said that Britain tried to prevent the establishment of a Jewish state; the New Historians claimed that it tried to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state
- The official version said that the Palestinians fled their homes of their own free will; the New Historians said that the refugees were chased out or expelled
- The official version said that the balance of power was in favor of the Arabs; the New Historians said that Israel had the advantage both in manpower and in arms
- The official version said that the Arabs had a coordinated plan to destroy Israel; the New Historians said that the Arabs were divided
- The official version said that Arab intransigence prevented peace; the New Historians said that Israel is primarily to blame for the dead end.
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Re: Post #41. An interesting link.
Judaism is a faith, not an ethnicity. What is the explanation for the many blue eyed or blonde haired Jews if there's supposed to be a linear purity? They are descendants of European converts. The religious practices today bear little resemblance to those in earlier centuries. Observance of religious doctrine was highly subjective and localised in all faiths before printing was invented. Most people were illiterate.
Forced conversions occurred when Judaism became the state religion. Conversion went the other way as well as it did in Spain when Jews converted to Catholicism. To some, the change may not have been a wrench. Islam, Judaism and Christianity share many of the same beliefs. Voluntary conversions took place as literacy increased throughout Europe. Conversion also took place through marriage. After two or three generations those born into a faith didn't question it as they do today.
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51 ilbeback
In May 2008 five CAMERA* editors were sanctioned by Wikipedia for trying to change Palestinian history.
*Pro Israeli organisation that monitors the media for biased reporting.
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54 MarcusBarbarius
Marcus, thanks for thinking of me but honestly, I can do without it.
Like many Americans, you seem to have a morbid fascination with violence and murder but I can't for the life of me see what your little story has to do with the vicious treatment of Gazans by the IDF.
Never mind, if it keeps you happy, go for it.
If America ever becomes civilised and abolishes capital punishment I'm positive you'll be distraught.
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First Hamas stole the UN's food, now the UN accuses it of stealing weapons. Do you think the UN has gotten the message that Hamas can't be trusted?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7895123.stm
But this dangerous unexploded ordinance can't be used against Israel. It's liable to detonate at any time if those handling it are not experts. So, Hamas continues to spread death among its own people. Just because the Israelis stopped attacking doesn't mean more Arabs in Gaza won't die as the result of Israel's weapons. Apparently, that's the way Hamas wants it and has found a way around the end of hostilities.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7894721.stm
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Post #59 is nothing more than a link to a currently running BBC story on a BBC web site with no comment. This is the third posting referencing this story.
If this posting is deleted or hidden by referring it to the moderators, it means not only that I have won the argument point, game, set, and match but that BBC is so biased, it will not even allow its own words on its own web site to be used to counter its obvious prejudice.
When is the Balen report finally going to be published to the public Mr. Lustig? When will BBC start telling the truth about the news and about itself?
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57 MarcusBarbarius
GazafriendsIn the interests of accuracy, I think you'll find it is Israel and not the UN who have accused Hamas of nicking the explosives.
I'm pleased you admitted it was Israel who did the attacking recently, however you are wrong when you say they have stopped:-
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62 MarcusBarbarius
Marcus, I can just imagine you sitting in the corner of a dimly lit room chuckling to yourself, like some demented soul, as you read that gruesome story.
You should get out more and maybe go to Gaza where you will see enough horror in a day, inflicted by the IDF, to keep you happy for a lifetime.
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Jacktref....the fishing boat would have sank and the fisherman would have drowned anyway...if he'd landed a 2000 pound bomb Hamas stole and hid under water for later use. :-)
You are right about a dimly lit room. It's an inner sanctum, the one room of my 15 room house which does not have a window (not counting the french doors.) This is the best place for a computer short of a large dressing room closet.
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Hey Robin, aren't you going to allow any discussion of that Moslem chopping his wife's head of for trying to divorce him?
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64 MarcusBarbarius
That's quite a small asylum with only 15 rooms!
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The personal stories are the most harrowing. This one is from Khaled Abd Rabo who lives on the eastern side of the Gaza Strip.....................
''Nobody could leave due to the excessive fire from the Israelis and the soldiers kept on coming and coming and coming. And then the tanks came. One of them was based only meters away from my house. There were twenty-five of us, and we were all told to leave. The soldiers were eating chips and chocolate.
My mother, my wife, and my three daughters all held white flags when they tried to leave the house. We saw two of the soldiers get out of their tank and we told them how we wanted to leave. We waited and waited for their response but were given no answer. Then, to our own surprise a third soldier emerged and he opened fire on the children with insanity. The soldiers eating chips and chocolate were smiling when my daughters were killed.
Souad was only seven years old, Summer was three, and Amal was of only two years. My mother was shot as well, and I watched all that I loved fall to the ground. I screamed for them to stop! I ran into the house to call civil defense, ambulances, anyone who could help.
For one hour the injured were bleeding, and two of my daughters were killed despite the so called ceasefire. No help was able to come to us in time. One of the ambulances tried, but the Israeli soldiers stopped the paramedic and forced him to remove his clothing. They then bombed the ambulance and it was buried in rubble. The paramedic fled naked while their fire surrounded him.''
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So there you are TrueToo.....got to hot for you on the other Blogspace eh? I see you allowed some of the excellent debate contained on Mark Thompson's page to broaden your mind somewhat? Only kidding no change and no surprise.
MarcusAurelius1 I am awed by your supreme intellect and grasp of world affairs........When did all of you Israel worshippers get out of indoctrination classes? Clever debaters at least give the impression that they grasp the other side of the argument.....You lot should be politicians!!! You have got all the qualities as in an ability to repeat the same line no matter what the evidence!
It is interesting that many of the bloggers who were unable to give straight answers to straight questions on other blogs and were a little too sensitive to criticism as a result have sought to continue their broadcasting elsewhere. I am thinking of starting a campaign to keep propoganda off blogspaces.....anyone interested?
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68 tilly
Far be it from me to speak out of school but you'll also find TT and Marcus lurking next door on Robin's previous topic.
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1) There is a difference between religious founding beliefs (Noah + Ark, for instance) and the presence of Jews on the lands.
2) As dceilar points out, even during the Babylonian exile, the land was inhabited by Jews. If 586B.C.E. isn't good enough for you. Archeological eveidence points to the inhabitants of Davidic Judah being there around 1000 B.C.E.. (So ,it sorta seems like the Jews lived there a long, long time.)
3) Sands is one historian. Apparently most others don't like his proof. You have to have evidence to prove things.
4) According to the anti-Israel folks posting here, Jews were not in Israel before the Roman period, suddenly appeared so that Jesus could arrive and then they all lived in happily in the land of Israel until the Muslims converted them all.
5) From the above we find that the Diaspora did not actually occur, which will come as a surprise to many.
6) In all seriousness:
Religious descent in Jewish families is through the mother. This is very diffewrent from most cultures. The prevailing theory about this is that so many Jewish women were raped by their tormentors over the centuries that in order to live with sanity, their children were declared Jewish in spite of the violation.
That is the likely cause of your Jews who do not fit into your racial stereotypes. Conversion is probably not any credible answer.
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Robin, after that little diversion, back to your topic, Israel's election: did anyone win?
Unfortunately no matter if any of the traditional parties had scored a decisive majority, no one would have 'won'. The main parties all agree on the doctrine of Zionism and have sold this to the Israeli people as a way of securing their future. A very large proportion of Israelis have bought into this belief and this has allowed governments over the years to engage in a kind of national gerrymandering to keep Zionism alive.
Because only about 20% of Israeli Jews are indigenous, roughly the same proportion as the Arabs, and it was by no means certain that a majority of them supported Zionism, the Zionists decided to entrench their philosophy by importing supporters to boost their voter base.
Just imagine if the same sort of thing had occurred here in the UK i.e. the Labour or Conservative party said to the whole world;
Is it any wonder that the Zionists in Israel have a majority no matter who is elected?
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Let's follow your logic, Turk...
Only about 10% of the Palestinian 'refugees' have ever lived in the land of israel. All the rest are descendants of their 'ancestors'.
Isn't it about time you told them they have no valid claim left? Shouldn't they be allowed to leave their rag-tag, Euro-charity UN-supported cities in Gaza and Lebanon and elswhere and be allowed to become real citizens of the places they live (with full economic and voting rights like their distant Arab relatives in Israel)?
Isn't iot about time you take your own advice?
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72 Steve
If you are going to respond please at least be comprehendible.
"Let's follow your logic, Turk..."
Ok, go on, I'm waiting....
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Jackturk, your last posts was full of untruths, if you attack other posters, I suggest that you make sure that you are in receipt of all the 'facts'.
It may interest you to know that the population of Gaza has increased by 40% since 1997, yet the amount of refugees has stayed the same?, explain that one to me could you?.
Personally, I would have imagined that the population would have decreased if the Israelis were as ruthless as you claim, I do wonder how the birthrate is so high in Gaza, and the infant mortality rates so low, if as you and the BBC have both claimed that the Israelis do not let medical supplies thorough, please explain this paradox.
If Zionism is such a problem for you, then I also expect that you have the same problem with Islamic extremism?, unfortunately I cannot find any posts by you that take Hamas to task for their crimes.
So some questions for you, and in the benefit of debate, I will check all the 'facts' that you may present.
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74 Rusti
"Jackturk, your last posts was full of untruths, if you attack other posters, I suggest that you make sure that you are in receipt of all the 'facts'."
Ok, I admit that my analogy wasn't brilliant but where were the 'untruths' that you mentioned. The 'attacks' to which you refer are merely responses but I suppose like most pro-Zionists you see any criticism as an attack.
It may interest you to know that the population of Gaza has increased by 40% since 1997, yet the amount of refugees has stayed the same?, explain that one to me could you?.
What has this got to do with voting in Israel?
Personally, I would have imagined that the population would have decreased if the Israelis were as ruthless as you claim, I do wonder how the birthrate is so high in Gaza, and the infant mortality rates so low, if as you and the BBC have both claimed that the Israelis do not let medical supplies thorough, please explain this paradox.
I have no control over your imagination but the proof that the Israelis are ruthless was demonstrated quite clearly recently. Please indicate where I have said that Israelis do not let medical supplies through.
If Zionism is such a problem for you, then I also expect that you have the same problem with Islamic extremism?
Correct and thanks for admitting that Zionism is extreme.
unfortunately I cannot find any posts by you that take Hamas to task for their crimes.
Please see my post no.16
Some answers for you; I look forward to your correction of any of my facts.
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Jackturk, your first incorrect claim is to state that I am a Zionist, as a Roman Catholic, I find fault with both sides, however, I personally feel that the BBC has allowed itself to become the mouthpiece of a terrorist organisation, aka Hamas.
Of course Zionism should be classed as extreme, which I have never claimed otherwise, however, it is also clear that the extremism of Hamas is 100 times as bad.
By the way, the birth rates that I have mentioned are lifted directly from the BBC, so I suggest that you take up that statistic with them and the UN who provided the data.
Your attempt to claim that Israel and not the old PLO were responsible for the failure of any number of peace agreements, is so obviously wrong that I am surprised you continue with your claims.
Finally, I thank you for taking the time to respond to me, and look forward to further debate.
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Something I have never had answered satisfactorily is ... Why are the members of Irgun and Lehi(Stern Gang) who used terrorist tactics so brutally against the British Army and Palestinians in their fight to establish their country, lauded as heroes and freedom fighters in Israel, when Hamas who have used similar methods are denigrated as Terrorist thugs in their struggle for a country of their own. If Irgun and Lehi are freedom fighters so are Hamas. Conversely if Hamas are terrorists so must Irgun and Lehi have been!! Can't have it both ways!!
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Jackturk, sorry I forgot to add the link to the birthrate story here it is
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7891434.stm
Also, I was incorrect, the figures came from the Palestinians themselves, not the UN as I claimed.
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77. At 7:02pm on 18 Feb 2009, Rustigjongens wrote:
Of course Zionism should be classed as extreme, which I have never claimed otherwise, however, it is also clear that the extremism of Hamas is 100 times as bad.
The body count over recent years would indicate otherwise!!
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7895123.stm
Very convenient for Israel that all that evidence of the type of munitions it used on Gaza should mysteriously go missing!!
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Jay724, where do you get your figures from?, it may have escaped your attention that Hamas attacks on Fatah resulted in hundreds of deaths, Hamas attacks on Israel troops has caused many deaths, Hamas attacks on its own population has caused many deaths, Hamas using its own population as human shields caused many deaths.
I note that you have not mentioned that Hamas refuses to accept the legally founded state of Israel, indeed it wishes to wipe it from the earth, this does not help the narrative that you wish to paint.
As I have mentioned before, I do not agree with many Israeli policies, however, I disagree even more with a terrorist group with the policies of Hamas.
It is not good enough for you to only attack one side, you must show balance, I can do it, Jackturk can do it, now you try it.
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I'm sure all the anti-Israel crew will rush to have a look at the IDF's evaluation of the Gaza death toll and the breakdown of that toll:
4&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
It's a little different to the Hamas statistics so eagerly lapped up by the usual suspects. Obviously the death of civilians, especially children, is tragic in any conflict, but we cannot debate the issue in any reasonable fashion if people simply echo Palestinian propaganda.
A day or two after the Israel attack began, I saw a Sky News clip with Palestinians carrying children with no evident sign of injury past the cameras. I guess there was no time to apply any special effects. Some of the children looked directly at the cameras as they went past.
The usual suspects ducked this very issue on The Editors blog. I couldn't get any of them to even have a look at the Israeli point of view. Any debate on this issue will have to take all the factors into account and go a little easy on the relentless anti-Israel propaganda. Otherwise, to quote Shakespeare:
It is a tale told by an idiot
full of sound and fury
signifying nothing.
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82. At 7:23pm on 18 Feb 2009, Rustigjongens wrote:
for balance how about in excess of 1300 killed by the IDF as opposed to 13 israeli deaths.
How about Hamas small arms fire opposed to F16s, Merkava MBTs, M109s, M270s, Phosphorous shells, Dime munitions!!
The balance seems heavily waited in favour of israel to me!!
There is no evidence, other than the word of the IDF that hamas used human shields. For balance there is as much evidence that the IDF used coerced civilians as go betweens and house clearers!!
I am no apologist for Hamas. I deplore their use of rockets against Israeli civilians, but there was absolutely no justification for the totally disproportionate attack on the innocent civilians of Gaza. A 'police action' would have been appropriate and would have resulted in very little 'collateral' damage. I can only assume that the carnage that took place was planned at high level as a punishment!!
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77 Rusti
"Jackturk, your first incorrect claim is to state that I am a Zionist"
I didn't say you were a Zionist.
"I personally feel that the BBC has allowed itself to become the mouthpiece of a terrorist organisation, aka Hamas."
I think that you are out on a limb there, judging by the posts on these blogs it's only the few Zionists and their supporters who believe that the BBC is pro-Hamas.
"it is also clear that the extremism of Hamas is 100 times as bad."
Hamas kills 13, Zionists kill 1300, I think that you've got your facts a little twisted.
"By the way, the birth rates that I have mentioned are lifted directly from the BBC, so I suggest that you take up that statistic with them and the UN who provided the data."
I have not disputed your figures, all I said was that according to population figures only 20% of Israeli Jews were born there.
"Your attempt to claim that Israel and not the old PLO were responsible for the failure of any number of peace agreements, is so obviously wrong that I am surprised you continue with your claims."
You've opened up a big subject there which has been covered and answered many many times but I will just quote again the words of David Ben Gurion, Zionist and one of the founders of Israel:-
"The Jewish people have always regarded, and will continue to regard Palestine as a whole, as a single country which is theirs in a national sense and will become theirs once again. No Jew will accept partition as a just and rightful solution" David Ben Gurion, Palestine Post July 15th 1937.
I would also refer you to the words of Gerald Kaufman which you can find elsewhere in these posts.
I trust that I have made clear my views and would be pleased to respond further if required.
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83. At 7:39pm on 18 Feb 2009, TrueToo wrote:
''Its a little different to the Hamas statistics so eagerly lapped up by the usual suspects. Obviously the death of civilians, especially children, is tragic in any conflict, but we cannot debate the issue in any reasonable fashion if people simply echo Palestinian propaganda.''
I suggest that you check out the ICRC and UN websites for their views on the Gaza conflict. Neither of those bodies forms part of the Hamas propaganda machine. The UN in particular has been on the receiving end of Israeli munitions.
It doesn't take the brains of a rocket scientist to work out that if you use heavy weapons, phosphorous and Dime munitions and overwhelming aeriel bombardment against one of the most heavily populated areas on the planet the result will be huge civilian casualties.
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83. At 7:39pm on 18 Feb 2009, TrueToo wrote:
'A day or two after the Israel attack began, I saw a Sky News clip with Palestinians carrying children with no evident sign of injury past the cameras. I guess there was no time to apply any special effects.'
It is a widely known fact that the BBC and other UK broadcasters heavily censor images likely to be upsetting to our delicate constitutions. To make matters worse, the images they receive have already been pre-censored by the news agencies which supply them. Have you never wondered why you only rarely see the remains of butchered Palestinian civilians after a botched Israeli air strike. Instead, you get to see a pile of rubble and dazed individuals with minor injuries wandering about about, once the body parts have been safely removed from view.
They will then take you to Israel, where someone's brand new extension has been struck by a Hamas missile killing the family cat and causing extreme distress to the occupant. How many of the 1300 dead Gazan's and 5000+ wounded did you get to see in graphic detail? The message is that 1300 dead Palestinians looks the same as 13 dead Israeli's, so both sides are equally brutal. This point is rather obvious, but if you would like to see the Palestinian suffering in more graphic detail, so as to convince yourself that they are not (as you callously imply) faking it, then complain to the BBC. We would like BBC viewers to see it also.
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83. At 7:39pm on 18 Feb 2009, TrueToo wrote:
Any debate on this issue will have to take all the factors into account and go a little easy on the relentless anti-Israel propaganda. Otherwise, to quote Shakespeare:
'It is a tale told by an idiot
full of sound and fury
signifying nothing.'
When Shakespear's Macbeth spoke these lines, he was a man in deep despair. Being driven by a lust for wealth and power, he committed some heinous crimes (selling his soul effectively), only to see his carefully calculated schemes unravelling before his eyes. I think your choice of quotes is quite apt and tells us something profound about Israel's future. Try replacing Macbeth with Israel. Macbeth's character also said:
'I am in blood stepped in so far,
that should I wade no more,
returning were as tedious as go o'er.'
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85. At 7:49pm on 18 Feb 2009, Jackturk wrote:
'Hamas kills 13, Zionists kill 1300, I think that you've got your facts a little twisted.'
Its even worse than that. 4 of Israel's dead were killed by friendly fire. Its actually Hamas 9, Zionists 1304.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129248
If Israel managed to kill 4 of it's own IDF 'militants', given that they rarely need to put themselves in harms way, then what chance do Palestinian civilians have.
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83 TrueToo
"I'm sure all the anti-Israel crew will rush to have a look at the IDF's evaluation of the Gaza death toll and the breakdown of that toll"
You said in the 'Editor's' blog you couldn't get anyone to even have a look at the Israeli point of view. Ironically, it was Jay724 in post 1936 who answered your point about the IDF figures and then questioned you further. Every other point you made there was refuted with facts and logic but you are trying to have another go here.
"A day or two after the Israel attack began, I saw a Sky News clip with Palestinians carrying children with no evident sign of injury past the cameras. I guess there was no time to apply any special effects. Some of the children looked directly at the cameras as they went past."
How dare you criticise one of the upstanding Mr.Murdock's mouthpieces for showing misleading film clips ...... oops, did you forget, he's on your side? You also raised this point and were answered on the Editor's blog - no ducking took place.
I've heard it said that Shakespeare was an anti-Semite - Merchant of Venice and all that.
"And thus I clothe my naked villany" - Shakespeare RichardIII
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Dunno what happened to my link at comment no. 83. In the unlikely effect of the anti-Israel crew wanting to have a look at the Israeli side of the story, and so introduce some balance into their comments, here it is again:
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
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89 ilbeback
Good points - thanks. I guess the IDF is not so friendly!
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89. At 9:27pm on 18 Feb 2009, ilbeback wrote:
''Its even worse than that. 4 of Israel's dead were killed by friendly fire. Its actually Hamas 9, Zionists 1304.''
I wonder if the four killed by friendly fire were mistaken for Gazan women or children?
Much as feel for the families of the dead Israeli soldiers, they were engaged in illegal activity under International Law in the types of munitions being used and their lack of 'care' for the civilian population and civilian infrastructure!! The Laws of armed Conflict places an obligation on every soldier to refuse illegal orders or to take part in illegal activity. They are personally responsible for their crimes!! As are Hamas rocketeers!!
The shooting of a child in the head is not soldiering...It's murder of the worst kind!!
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84 Idleback wrote:
'for balance how about in excess of 1300 killed by the IDF as opposed to 13 israeli deaths.'
Evidently you would feel better if more Jews were killed, just to 'square things up'.
This is a military action. You try not to get your own people killed. The Israelis under fire (like those who had thousands of Hezbollah rockets fired at them) had bomb shelters.
Hamas made no provision of underground shelter for anyone except themselves and 'protected' their people by firing rockets from their doorsteps, storing weapons in their houses and using mosques and hospitals as headquarters and arsenals.
In addition, if Hamas knew they couldn't kill enough Israelis to produce many casualties (which they knew from experience), then why did they go right ahead and make 'martyr' victims of themselves and the Gazans?
Going back to Robin's subject: The Israelis are faced with a number of unenviable choice to make and similarly unenviable candidates to perform those choices.
However, they know that they must do it right or they will be murdered in their beds by their sworn enemies.
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Jacktref, why not look at it like a cricket match or a baseball game. The Zionist Jews were out for 2000 years and the Arabs had their half of the inning. Now all the Arabs have to do is wait another 1939 years and the Zionist Jews will have had their turn and it will be the Arab's turn again. Fair is fair.
JBird, I see your problem. You feel the fight was unfair because the Arabs didn't have nearly the ability to kill the Zionist Jews as the Zionist Jews had to kill the Arabs. But then the Arabs were allied to the USSR and now Iran. That's what happens when you pick the side of a loser. You lose too. Do ya think they maybe made a mistake shooting all those thousands of rockets at Israelis?
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94. At 10:58pm on 18 Feb 2009, SteveGNyc wrote:
'Evidently you would feel better if more Jews were killed, just to 'square things up'.
I would feel better if Israels retaliation had been proportionate. I would feel better if Israel had accepted that the 35 rockets fired by Hamas on 5th November, causing no damage or injuries, was an inevitable response to the intentionally provocative (and curiously under-reported) killing of six Palestinians on the 4th November, and just left it at that. The Israeli attack was, by far, the most flagrant breach of the four-month-old truce along the Gaza Strip's frontier, and retaliation from Hamas entirely predictable:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians-egypt
Unfortunately, Israel had no intention of 'leaving it at that'. Using the Hamas attack to justify the disproportionate assault on Gaza was a shell game, concocted four months prior. Israeli provocation for the rocket attack was cynically timed to coincide with the run-up to the US elections – a time when no American presidential candidate can be seen to criticise Israel. For a detailed account of the considerable planning which went into this operation see:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/04/israel-gaza-hamas-hidden-agenda
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94. At 10:58pm on 18 Feb 2009, SteveGNyc wrote:
'This is a military action. You try not to get your own people killed.'
That's why the former Sephardi chief rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu advocates carpet bombing Gaza in order to avoid Israeli casualties. Eliyahu's son, Shmuel Eliyahu, who is chief rabbi of Safed, went even further:
'If they don't stop after we kill 100, then we must kill a thousand," said Shmuel Eliyahu. "And if they do not stop after 1,000 then we must kill 10,000. If they still don't stop we must kill 100,000, even a million. Whatever it takes to make them stop.'
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1180527966693&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
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94. At 10:58pm on 18 Feb 2009, SteveGNyc wrote:
'Hamas made no provision of underground shelter for anyone except themselves and 'protected' their people by firing rockets from their doorsteps, storing weapons in their houses and using mosques and hospitals as headquarters and arsenals.'
Were Hamas to build underground shelters, they would no doubt be ineffective in the face of the Israel's weapons. No doubt Israel would claim they were tunnelling operations, and proceed to bomb and bulldoze the shelters and surrounding homes to boot. By not building shelters, Israel is given less excuse to target Palestinian civilians.
Fortunately, the Israeli lie that it's botched air strikes were targeting Hamas fighters has been thoroughly discredited by international aid agencies and the UN. Never have so many lying Zionist PR stooges been exposed so thoroughly and so embarrassingly:
http://open.salon.com/content.php?cid=84468
I know you will probably claim that the relief agencies and the UN are pro-Hamas, as well as being anti-Semitic.
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94. At 10:58pm on 18 Feb 2009, SteveGNyc wrote:
'Going back to Robin's subject: The Israelis are faced with a number of unenviable choice to make and similarly unenviable candidates to perform those choices. However, they know that they must do it right or they will be murdered in their beds by their sworn enemies.'
We can only speculate about what the Palestinians would do to the Israeli's if they had the upper hand, but we know for a fact what the Israelis would do to the Palestinians, because they have done it!
I have three questions for you Steve:
- What has Israel done to the Palestinians to make you think they (the Palestinians) would murder them (the Israeli's) in their beds?
- What might Israel do to the Palestinians if it were granted the total lack of accountability which it clearly desires?
-Are you a paranoid schizophrenic?
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dontcomeback
I think things are going very well for Israel right now. I'm sure they wouldn't want to trade places with the Palestinians but who would? The victims of Arab genocide in Darfur, that's who. They'd be only too happy to have a roof over their head instead of a sheet of plastic and they would be just too happy to live and let live. Fighting with Israel would be the last thing on their minds. If the Palestinians keep up their attacks, fighting with Israel may wind up being the last thing on their minds too. The very last thing.
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According to the latest news, Israel is prepared to exchange 1400 terrorists for only one captured Israeli soldier. Yet, the Hamas terrorist do not agree. That should tell you something about how Israel and Hamas value the life of their own people.
Never have I seen a proof that the Palestinians care a fig about the life of their own, unless some of them happen to be killed by Israel. Children and women are no use to Hamas for anything other than suicide bombers or as names in the civilian casualties list. Hamas will readily kill Plaestinians when they are Fatah supporters for example, yet there are still morons in the world who are actually supporting this terrorists organization.
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Isenhorn, this is one more bad move by Israel. Allowing 1400 prisoners, many of whom have Israeli blood on their hands and will kill Israeli civilians again is a bad mistake. The Isrealis should have continued to attack Gaza until their captured soldier was released. That's what they said was the condition for ending their war against Hezbollah in Lebanon and they relented there too. Very weak in that regard.
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@ilbebaxck
Well, for one thing, the Arabs sent in armies in 1948 to kill every Jew in Israel.
And for a second, they tried the same thing in 1967.
If the israelis had no accountability, I think they would not slaughter every man, woamn and child like the Arabs have promised to do and try to do every chance they get.
For an example, look at Hafez Assad's total annihilation with 30,000 dead of the city of Hama in Syria to deal with Islamists.
Your hatred of Jews leads you to defend cold-blooded murderers who have even less regard for their victimized own people than the Jews who stand up to their threats and assaults.
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As I said in my first post - the first post -Israel will be forced to make concessions after their inconclusive elections. Mass release of the mass detainees they snatched in January is but one. They have no charges against them. Not surprising really. They kidnapped far more new Gazans in the last round than rockets were fired.
There's a lot of pressure on Israel to lift the blockade. It's coming from every direction now. Convoys of aid are queuing up in Egypt with far more en route. MP's, MEP's and Senators are turning up to witness newly arrived aid workers idle because their supplies are stacked up at the border.
The Dec 27 offensive's objective to stop rockets has failed and Israeli citizens and their media are asking some very uncomfortable questions.
Then they have some explaining to do to George Mitchell, having broken their 2001 promise to him to halt the building of further settlements in the West Bank. It's difficult to put an additional 100,000 down to an error or an oversight when you've had to plan and build all the sewers, roads and other infrastructure to support the settlements. When Mitchell was last involved, Israel was then saying it couldn't do business with Yasser Arafat, yet they were openly dealing with Hamas. Israel had Arafat under house arrest. They cut off his water and electricity supply. The Palestinians were urged to embrace democracy. Whilst Mitchell has been away, they did embrace democracy - admirably according to the election monitors. And Hamas won. Decisively - unlike the confused picture in Israel. Will Mitchell recognise the democratically elected Hamas or will he only speak to them through the party that lost the election? As previous conflicts have shown direct engagement with Hamas will have to occur at some point. The Americans claimed they'd never talk to the evil North Vietnamese. But they did. Sharon claimed he'd never talk to Arafat the terrorist. But he did. The British refused to talk with the 'terrorist' IRA - but in due course Gerry Adams was a regular visitor to Downing Street - and took tea with the Queen - as Mitchell knows full well. So Obama's envoy can either play games - or get stuck into talks with the clear election winners in Gaza and the less clear election winners in Israel. In the present climate I'm sure Obama has better things to spend the annual Israeli subsidy on if Israel wants to play games.
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95 MarcusBarbarius
Marcus, I think that as usual, you are being a little overconfident. Because of the Zionists despicable behaviour, it's highly unlikely that they will be around for anything like 1939 years before the normal peace loving Jews get wise to them and their past actions.
101 Isenhorn
You referred to the Palestinian prisoners as 'terrorists'. Since 1967 Israel has jailed more than 700,000 Palestinians, most of them for 'political' reasons. There are more than 1400 Israeli 'military' regulations imposed upon Gaza which Palestinians can fall foul of without even being aware, another example of how the IDF terrorises the Palestinians.
Never have I seen a proof that the Palestinians care a fig about the life of their own
This is how much one of Israel's prominent Zionist politicians cares about human life:-
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Forgot to include the discontent going on within the IDF - I'm only human. They've all been told not to travel overseas in case they're arrested and charged. That presents a problem for a defence force of conscripts with relatives all around the world.
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105
Jackturk,
Interestingly enough, you chose to counter the inconvenient facts about Hamas and the Palestinians by quoting some Zionist. I did not write my post in order to try justifying the Israelis. I wrote it in order to show you the true face of Hamas and the the value it attaches to the life even of its own people.
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107 Isenhorn
I did not write my post in order to try justifying the Israelis
And I did not write my response to justify Hamas.
As you know if you have read my other posts, I do not agree with all of Hamas' actions, however they were democratically elected, as verified by independent observers, therefore I would suggest that their own people are the best to decide if Hamas have their interests at heart.
I also responded to counteract your insinuation that the 1400 Palestinian prisoners are all terrorists.
By the way, Avigdor Lieberman isn't just 'some Zionist' as you put it he was Israel's Deputy Prime Minister!
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#104 Richard
You highlight an inconsistency of Israel's attitude to Hamas. While they refused to speak to Arafat they were speaking to Hamas. While the Israelis were locking up Fatah members and associates they let Hamas extremists to carry on converting Palestinians. I would go on to say that Hamas winning the election in 2005 was the goal of Israel and the USA - because what they really fear are the Palestinian and Israeli moderates who believe in secularism, peace, democracy, and the pre-1967 borders.
The slaughter of civilians and children in Gaza will in no way make Israelis 'existentially secure' - but that's not the goal of the Israeli military complex.
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Although I respect Mitchell for his role in the Northern Ireland peace process I can't see him achieving anything in the middle east. Mitchell spoke to Sein Fein. He's not likely to speak to Hamas.
The objective was that the British would put an end to the resort to violence in response to IRA terror and would attend to the legitimate grievances that were the source of the terror. He did manage that, Britain did pay attention to the grievances, and the terror stopped - so that was successful.
But there is no such outcome sketched in the Middle East, specially the Israel-Palestine problem. I mean, there is a solution, a straightforward solution very similar to the British one. Israel could stop its US-backed crimes in the occupied territories and then presumably the reaction to them would stop. But that's not on the agenda.
More info here.
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BBC World Service are reporting that Avigdor Liebermann has sided with
Netanyahu. Could we be looking at the absurd prospect of negotiations between those that both failed to win the majority of votes in their respective elections? We will if George Mitchell maintains the ridiculous position of refusing to engage with Hamas. What will he call it I wonder - The Loser's Peace talks?
An Israeli Government led by Benyamin Netanyahu will be .....interesting. He's the man the White House previously described as "a liar and a cheat, one of the most obnoxious individuals you'll ever meet." Avigdor Liebermann, the Soviet born nightclub bouncer who is currently under investigation for corruption, the same bribery and corruption investiagtion that Sharon and Olmert are implicated - and the Police have confirmed so far that Sharon's guilt is beyond question having traced his $2million bribe. What would happen to Netanyahu's coalition if Liebermann is charged with corruption?
#109 dceilar.
Israel's policy is to avoid any sustainable peace deal. Hamas have offered a ten year peace deal three times. Each time it's been rejected.
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~108
Jackturk,
'I also responded to counteract your insinuation that the 1400 Palestinian prisoners are all terrorists'.
I forgot- no terrorists, no suicide-bombers, but 'martyrs'.
Hamas was democratically ellected? So what? That does not make their policies right. Bush was also democratically ellected, so is the Israeli government. If that is your justification of the actions of Hamas, then you should not complain about the actions of the Israeli government. After all the Israelis have chosen those who 'have their interest at heart'.
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103. At 2:29pm on 19 Feb 2009, SteveGNyc wrote:
'Well, for one thing, the Arabs sent in armies in 1948 to kill every Jew in Israel.'
I'm a bit rusty on that one, but during the war, between 700,000 and 750,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from the territories that became Israel in 1949. They were not allowed to go back to their home after the war and became refugees.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus
103. At 2:29pm on 19 Feb 2009, SteveGNyc wrote:
'And for a second, they tried the same thing in 1967.'
Sorry. I'm scratching my head again. Did Israel not ethnically cleanse another 300,000 Palestinian Arabs? See 1967 'Palestinian Exodus':
http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0390/9003017.htm
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Ref: #112 Isenhorn wrote:
"Hamas was democratically elected? So what? That does not make their policies right."
No because "right" is subjective - but it does make them the representative body who should be directly engaged in peace negotiations. The Israeli Government aren't going to get anywhere until they recognise Hamas as such.
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103. At 2:29pm on 19 Feb 2009, SteveGNyc wrote:
'If the israelis had no accountability, I think they would not slaughter every man, woamn and child like the Arabs have promised to do and try to do every chance they get.'
You only THINK that 'they (the Israeli's) would not slaughter every (Palestinian) man, woamn and child.' Does that mean that perhaps they may 'slaughter every (Palestinian) man, woamn and child', or that they would spare a few?
103. At 2:29pm on 19 Feb 2009, SteveGNyc wrote:
'For an example, look at Hafez Assad's total annihilation with 30,000 dead of the city of Hama in Syria to deal with Islamists.'
To relate this to Palestine, you should be comparing the Muslim Brotherhood to Hamas and Assad's regime to Israel. The Muslim brotherhood were the victims here! It's chilling to note that the dictator Assad used exactly the same indefensible tactics as Israel did in Gaza. e.g. shelling the city of Hama for three weeks to avoid endangering his own troops:
'The goal of the attack on Hama was to halt the rebellious activities of the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood. The assault began on February 2 with extensive shelling of the town of 350 000 inhabitants. Before the attack, the Syrian government called for the city's surrender and warned that anyone remaining in the city would be considered as a rebel. Robert Fisk in his book Pity the Nation described how civilians were fleeing Hama while tanks and troops were moving towards the city's outskirts to start the siege. He cites reports of mass death and shortages of food and water from fleeing civilians and from soldiers .'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_massacre#The_Massacre
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The Moslem Brotherhood is the crucible where al Qaeda was hatched. It's outlawed in Egypt. That Syria attacked meant their government felt threatened it. Clearly there is no honor among thieves.
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112 Isenhorn
"Bush was also democratically ellected, (sic) so is the Israeli government. If that is your justification of the actions of Hamas, then you should not complain about the actions of the Israeli government."
You are resorting to 'straw-man' tactics! For the second time, I didn't seek to justify the actions of Hamas, I merely used your attack on their behaviour as an opportunity to mention a few home truths about the militant Zionist's attitude to human life.
Whether or not you think it is legitimate or not for me to complain about the Israeli government doesn't concern me, nor is it dependant upon the actions of Hamas.
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Jacktref, if the Zionist Jews cared as little for the value of human life as Hamas does, there wouldn't be a single Palestinian left alive today.
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It's always good to read posts on this topic, because I am reminded, by certain posters, that:
a) When I am critical of Israeli policies, I must therefore be a Jew-hater.
b) Palestinians in particular, and Arabs more generally, are naturally violent, and will never be trustworthy partners in any negotiations for peace. Endless war is therefore not only inevitable, but desirable as well.
c) Israeli democracy, in spite of being rampantly corrupt, and sustainable in its current form only so long as it justifies itself against an apparently implacable evil it helps to create and sustain, is beyond criticism.
Same old story . . .
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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Canadian pinko;
b)
Chop! Chop!
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119 MarcusBarbarius
When it comes to caring less about human life, the militant Zionists take some beating.
You surely must be aware that during the second world war F D Roosevelt found safe havens for half a million Jews but was thwarted by militant Zionists who wanted to use the suffering of fellow Jews as leverage to establish the state of Israel. In fact Roosvelt's friend, Morris Ernst, a Jewish America attorney who tried to help, was accused by militant Zionists of treason for trying to undermine Zionism, the implication being that if the Jews were given shelter elsewhere, there was less chance that their argument in favour of a Jewish state would win.
Very interesting background information can be viewed here http://www.palestinejournal.net/lilienthal_how-zionists-sabotaged-rescue.htm here http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner1223.html and here http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner05252005.html
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#117 MarcusErronousII
The Moslem Brotherhood is the crucible where al Qaeda was hatched. It's outlawed in Egypt. That Syria attacked meant their government felt threatened it. Clearly there is no honor (sic) among thieves.
Wrong again Marcus. The 'crucible of where al-Qaeda was hatched' was in Afghanistan and Pakistan during the eighties with the Mujahideen - which had the tactic and financial support of US and, one of its client states, Saudi Arabia. I think those European descendants in your side of the pond call it 'blow-back' (sounds like a drug reference to me!).
Moreover, your talk of Syria betrays your ignorance of the region. They are secularists, so naturally they are opposed to The Muslim Brotherhood.
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Perhaps this wont go through because of a link I put in, so I'm removing it:
88. ilbeback,
You misread my comment. I was referring to the people on this BBC blog and elsewhere venting their meaningless "sound and fury" against Israel when I quoted that Macbeth speech.
81. Jay724
Give me a break. Don't you recognise Hamas behaviour when you see it? You might have noticed that the Israelis are no longer in Gaza.
87. ilbeback,
Again, you deliberately miss the point. Obviously the fact that the Palestinians regularly fake injuries does not mean that actual deaths and injuries did not occur. And it doesn't detract from the tragedy of civilian casualties. But if you don't know by now that the Palestinians often go into default fake mode when they see a camera then you nothing about this conflict.
You might like to try one comment without an insult. Do it as an exercise in restraint.
90. Jackturk,
The comment to ilbeback applies to you too. I don't care if Sky news is owned by an Eskimo. The fact is, those shots were faked.
115. ilbeback,
You should study your subject first. Then perhaps you wouldn't make meaningless and idle comparisons between Israel and Syria.
The Muslim Brotherhood in Syria were intent on overthrowing Assad. As is their inclination, they committed a number of terrorist outrages, culminating in the attempted assassination of Assad.
Assad responded by:
*Taking dozens of Muslim Brotherhood prisoners out of their cells and killing them.
(In contrast, the worst of terrorist prisoners have been released by Israel, e.g. Sami Kuntar, and Israel does not have the death penalty.)
*Laying siege to the Brotherhood town of Hama, as SteveGNyc pointed out in comment no. 103, and simply shelling it until practically everyone in it had been killed or had managed to flee through the army cordon around it and then going in to mop up the remnants. Hama was utterly destroyed.
(n contrast, Israel made hundreds of thousands of telephone calls to Gaza civilians and dropped leaflets warning of impending attacks. The IDF did its best to avoid civilian casualties and concentrate its attacks on Hamas. Not even the most energetic of Hamas propagandists is claiming that Gaza City was destroyed.)
In the unlikely event that the Israel-bashing crowd here would actually like to have a look at the IDF's breakdown of the casualty figures, Google World duped by Hamas death count.
The article is from the Jerusalem Post and should appear at the top of the page.
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Ref: TrueToo Post #124
I've just had a look at the article you recommend in The Jerusalem Post titled, "World duped by Hamas death count."
Before I comment, just a quick reminder on the record of the recent holders of power:
We do know that Prime Minister Olmert and his former deputy PM Lieberman, as well as the previous PM Ariel Sharon have been under investigation for corruption.
Former finance minister Abraham Hirchson also guilty of theft of millions from workers pension funds
The Justice Minister Haim Ramon on sex offences.
Cabinet Minister Tzachi Hanegbi, another Olmert buddy, charged with fraud, bribery and perjury in connection with appointments.
Olmert's longtime personal assistant, Shula Zaken charged for arranging job placements in return for tax breaks.
Yigal Saar of the Israel Tax Authority arrested for bribery and influence-peddling.
Israel's Tax Authority director Jacky Matza -on corruption charges.
Now I'll look comment on the report compiled by the people who take their orders from these politicians:
The article says.....
"Basing its work on the official Palestinian death toll of 1,338, Levi said the CLA had now identified more than 1,200 of the Palestinian fatalities."
1338 versus 1200 !
And it does say they "had now identified 1200" - implying the work goes on. Presumably some are completely unidentifiable and some there are no remains.
When whole families have been killed, it's understandable the process is difficult.
The article also says...
"Another 300 of the 1,200 - women, children aged 15 and younger and men over the age of 65 - had been categorized as noncombatants, the CLA said."
Do you think they are trying to suggest that any male between the age of 15 and 65 is therefore a terrorist?
It seems from this article that once Israel have completed their assessment, they won't be far from the official Hamas figures.
There doesn't appear to be any "duping" from Hamas. What do others think?
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125. Richard_SM,
Well, at least you bothered to look at the article. That's more than can be said for the vast majority of those here who take whatever Hamas says as the truth.
And those, like jackturk, who are so obsessed with bashing Israel that they will delve into the realms of pure fantasy, as can be seen by the utter nonsense he posted at no. 122. Google it and you'll find that the only people who believe it hang around neoNazi and like-minded websites. It is common knowledge that America was extremely reluctant to allow Jewish immigration during World War II and in fact severely limited that immigration. I wonder if jackturk really believes the rubbish he gets from weird websites.
To return to your point, Hamas propaganda has it that 400 children were killed in Gaza and that the majority of those killed were civilians. And you might have noticed how cagey they are about revealing their own fatalities. They also have the unfortunate tendency to blame Israel for all deaths, including those caused by fighting amongst Palestinians themselves. But I guess people are comfortable with Israel taking the blame for Fatah supporters killed by Hamas or civilians killed in the crossfire and not necessarily by Israel.
So yes, the Israeli figures are quite different.
Your list of Israeli politicians caught out for fraud is quite impressive, much like a list that could be made of politicians in any country. But your attempt to connect two separate issues is unimpressive. It has nothing to do with the IDF investigation.
Try comparing apples with apples. Like the fact that Saeb Erekat jumped up and down yelling that 500 Palestinians had been killed by the Israelis in Jenin when it turned out that the real figure was 52.
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To return to the comment I made back at no. 2, looks like a right-wing government will take over in Israel. Therefore, the likelihood of concessions for "peace" will be greater than if a left-wing government had prevailed. If a mix of left and right comes to power, which is unlikely, they will probably pull against each other and remain immobile.
Having another look at Robin Lustig's last sentence, it would be good if the BBC could emerge from its standard anti-Israel mode. The dilemma facing the Israeli voting public is not, and never has been, the simplistic and trite choice "between hope and fear." It always was, and probably always will be, a choice between who can best deal with the unfortunate reality of the implacable enemies that Israel faces - enemies that have never stopped trying to destroy the country.
Where is the evidence of change from their side?
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Natan-ya-hooooooo :-)
Don't look for any concessions to Moslem terrorists.....except from Europeons as their land turns into Eurabia.
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126 TrueToo
"And those, like jackturk, who are so obsessed with bashing Israel that they will delve into the realms of pure fantasy"
I notice that because the 'anti-Semitic' accusation has been devalued so much by its users, you have replaced it by the term 'Israel Bashing'. However, you have not responded in any credible way to the shocking information that I posted in 122. Your pathetic response was merely to insinuate that it was neo-Nazi propaganda. A tactic that is despicable, as most of the information has been uncovered by Jewish researchers.
Because you have been so indoctrinated into your beliefs about the past by swallowing the Zionist line, It is hard if not impossible, for you to accept that the Zionists could have been so callous to their fellow Jews.
"It is common knowledge that America was extremely reluctant to allow Jewish immigration during World War II and in fact severely limited that immigration."
Where did the objections to Jewish immigration into the USA during the war come from? - answer: the hard line Zionists who did not want Jewish suffering to be relieved in case it harmed their case for establishing an Israeli state.
The Zionists of today are the progeny of those who went before and if anything, some of them are even more zealous than their mentors. Many diaspora and Israeli Jews now understand what you obviously refuse to accept and are starting to speak out against Zionism.
The more people like you defend the actions of the Israeli government the more it encourages others to dig into Zionist history, and what a sordid history it is...!
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124. At 4:43pm on 20 Feb 2009, TrueToo wrote:
'You misread my comment. I was referring to the people on this BBC blog and elsewhere venting their meaningless "sound and fury" against Israel when I quoted that Macbeth speech.'
I did not misread your comment, as you well know. Actually you tried to drop in a Shakespeare passage to appear intelligent but when I pointed out that your use of the quote was entirely inappropriate, it had the opposite effect. Not content with defending the murder of Palestinians, you want to murder Shakespeare now!
Just think of Israel as the treacherous murderer Macbeth and the Palestinians as the slaughtered wives and children of Malcolm and Macduff, say. When Macbeth said:
'I am in blood stepped in so far,
that should I wade no more,
returning were as tedious as go o'er.'
He had resolved to do whatever is necessary to keep his throne. Similarly, the Zionists are already so far steeped in the blood of innocent Palestinians that they appear to have become detached from the gravity of their crimes. Continuing to persecute and kill the Palestinian people has become the easier option. They are prepared to do whatever it takes to crush the Palestinian's into submission, rather than admit their legacy of crimes, honour the UN resolutions, seek forgiveness, and reach a just settlement.
They have sold every principle of Judaism, choosing to take the most extreme interpretations possible to justify their atrocities - like the 9/11 bombers. The majority of humanity find it laughable that a Just Deity could ever wish to favour such a murderous and corrupt people above others.
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124. At 4:43pm on 20 Feb 2009, TrueToo wrote:
'Again, you deliberately miss the point. Obviously the fact that the Palestinians regularly fake injuries does not mean that actual deaths and injuries did not occur.'
What proportion of the 5500 injured Palestinians were 'fake' ? Were any of these fake?:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12012
Remember, the BBC and SKY are pro Israeli. They will never show images such as that of the baby shot dead inside her pregnant mother by Israeli military, as that would be anti-Semitic.
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124. At 4:43pm on 20 Feb 2009, TrueToo wrote:
'the worst of terrorist prisoners have been released by Israel, e.g. Sami Kuntar, and Israel does not have the death penalty.'
Oh TT! I'm so happy to know that Israel has such high moral values, in contrast with countries like America, which does have the death penalty. Even though Israel has just executed 1300+ Palestinians, when you do it with bullets and missiles, it's not really the same as execution, so Israel calls it 'self defence' instead and gives it's soldiers medals for bravely dropping bombs on helpless Palestinian civilians, because they thought they might have seen a Hamas militant nearby and, it takes a lot of 'courage' to massacre woman and children from a safe distance, or even close up, you know.
Today more than 11 000 Palestinians, including hundreds of women and children, are being held in Israeli prisons and detention centres and whereas most of those detainees were arrested in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.
European Parliament resolution of 4 September 2008 on the situation of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails:
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/bc34a63f8f9c87550525663b006c57af/c68d4637c8d21b5a85257501007129ca!OpenDocument
In addition, 'human rights reports state that Palestinian prisoners are subject to abuses and use of torture,' We all know that torture can lead to 'accidents', but at least that's not morally repugnant like officially having the death penalty.
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124. At 4:43pm on 20 Feb 2009, TrueToo wrote:
'In contrast, Israel made hundreds of thousands of telephone calls to Gaza civilians and dropped leaflets warning of impending attacks.'
Before the attack, the Syrian government called for the city's surrender and warned that anyone remaining in the city would be considered as a rebel – exactly the same as Israel. Gaza was a mini version of Hama! Or could it be the same trick they pulled in 1948 and 1967 Palestinian exodus. Warn them to leave and then steal their land.
124. At 4:43pm on 20 Feb 2009, TrueToo wrote:
'The IDF did its best to avoid civilian casualties and concentrate its attacks on Hamas.'
Israel has been deliberately targeting Palestinian civilians and the very infrastructure of normal life, in order to – in the best colonial style – teach the natives a lesson.
124. At 4:43pm on 20 Feb 2009, TrueToo wrote:
'Not even the most energetic of Hamas propagandists is claiming that Gaza City was destroyed.'
True. Israel has 'only' destroyed 15% of Gaza city.....so far.
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130. At 01:20am on 21 Feb 2009, Jackturk wrote:
'126 TrueToo
The more people like you defend the actions of the Israeli government the more it encourages others to dig into Zionist history, and what a sordid history it is...!'
Here, here.
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I can't think of any nation that has a more sordid history than Great Britain. Some had their moments but over an extended period, Great Britain was probably the worst.
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136 MarcusBarbarius
Unfortunately, I agree and the USA comes a close second.
But Marcus, you are remarkably silent on the information I posted in 122.
Normally you are the first to jump in and give your version of the historical perspective. By your silence, could it be that you agree and you fear that the shameful behaviour of the wartime Zionists is a subject which is too hot to handle and by discussing it, others not so well informed may begin to see the evil in the Zionist philosophy?
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135 ilbeback
Hope youlbeback again and again - thanks.
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124 TrueToo
"But if you don't know by now that the Palestinians often go into default fake mode when they see a camera then you nothing about this conflict."
Yes, I suppose it is rather clever of the kids to shoot themselves in the back for the cameras.
"In contrast, the worst of terrorist prisoners have been released by Israel, e.g. Sami Kuntar, and Israel does not have the death penalty."
Why on earth would they need the death penalty when it is much easier for them to assassinate anyone they care to?
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126. At 7:16pm on 20 Feb 2009, TrueToo wrote:
'To return to your point, Hamas propaganda has it that 400 children were killed in Gaza and that the majority of those killed were civilians.'
It's UN's children's body UNICEF to blame for the propaganda, if you don't mind! UNICEF: Israeli war killed at least 431 children in Gaza
http://www.mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=617618
Quibbling over the number of Palestinian child deaths at the hands of the Israeli forces makes you look bad, so I am happy for you to keep on doing it. But will you at least accept the UN figures when the slow process of independent verification is complete, given that this figure will be well short of the actual total?
And don't forget the 1,872 children wounded during the 22-day Israeli military attacks in Gaza. Many of those will suffer life long illnesses and deformities, and may yet die. Many are undergoing operations without drugs. Maybe Israel should let some medicines through the blockade, to help the little Palestinian children, if they promise not to give the empty containers to Hamas to throw at Israeli soldiers.
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dontcomeback, Israel does not need to defend its actions to anyone, least of all Europeons. It's pointless anywaY since Jew hating Europe made up its mind about anything regarding Jews a thousand years ago. It is Europe that should be defending its actions against Jews. But it can't. They have no defense. As for the Arabs, they too have far more Jewish blood on their hands than they can ever wash away, just like the Europeans. IMO, if the Jews killed every last European and every last Arab, they would still not even the score. Fortunately for both, they have no desire to because it is within their power. Personally, it wouldn't bother me in the least if they did.
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128. Fennec,
Yes, you can register your objection. You can also prove you know nothing about Israeli politics. I assume it's Ehud Barak you are calling a "thug." Do you have anything to contribute to the debate?
130. Jackturk
A bit of research will illustrate the lack of corroboration of the propaganda you so energetically pump out here and links will illustrate the dubious nature of your "information" Obviously that's why you so carefully avoid supplying any.
Yes, the Zionists were set on immigration to Palestine but to assume they had the power to influence America policy re immigrants is wishful thinking on the part of conspiracy theorists.
The objections to German Jewish immigration to the US, as an example, came in part from concerns about security once America was at war with Germany. Concerns were also expressed about foreigners coming into the US – something that was quite ironical in view of the fact that some of those expressing the concerns were themselves immigrants or their descendants. Do some reading of genuine historical works.
I didn't change to the Israel-bashing term. I've been using it consistently because it's clear that's what you and so many others are about on these BBC blogs. I don't make accusations of anti-Semitism lightly. You, on the other hand, throw accusations around like confetti.
131. ilbeback,
You misread me, that's for sure. But if you can't make one comment without flinging gross insults around why would you think I would want to debate anything with you?
135. ilbeback,
And while we are busy judging people's intelligence, note that the saying is "hear, hear" and not "here, here."
Now do you people have any observations on the topic of this thread? No thoughts on the direction of Israeli politics in the light of the election or any response to my points at no. 127? If you have nothing to contribute other than venom I'll leave you to it.
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Ref: # 124,125,126 TrueToo
The overall numbers aren't so far apart. Certainly not enough to claim Hamas duped the world.
One possible explanation for the discrepancy in number of children could be that Israel defines as 15 or under. UN/Hamas might be setting a higher age.
Corruption is an issue in Israeli politics. The number of cases is surprising given their electoral system - doesn't say much for PR. I have to give the Israeli media credit for highlighting corruption - and to their legal system for prosecuting. But it's puzzling why those on charges still appear to remain in office. Corruption in any organisation spreads, but can be cut out when occurring at lower levels. It's a different proposition when it's spreading from the top down. I pity the Israeli people. Did any party stand on an anti-corruption platform? (not a rhetorical Q - Idk.)
Back to elections and democracy, I made the point in an earlier post that if George Mitchell doesn't recognise Hamas, negotiations will be lead by 2nd placed Likud and 2nd placed Fatah. So much for democracy.
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144. Richard_SM
Yes, there might be a discrepancy in the ages. That could be a partial explanation. Another discrepancy of course is in the ratio of Palestinian civilians to terrorists killed. Richard Kemp, former commander of British Troops in Afghanistan and a senior military adviser to the British government, said the following at the height of the fighting: "I don't think there has ever been a time in the history of warfare where any army has made more efforts to reduce civilian casualties and deaths of civilians than the IDF is doing today in Gaza."
Hamas, by contrast, thrives on civilian deaths, whether those of Palestinians or Israelis. How much blame, if any, are people prepared to put on Hamas for civilian fatalities?
As I said, you'll find plenty corruption among politicians elsewhere. And in many countries corruption in government is the norm. Have a look at them if you really want to extend your "pity" to the people.
The Israeli voting public has swung right in this election so it is no denial of democracy if Likud comes to lead a right-wing coalition government. And Fatah was only voted out in Gaza and not out of leadership of the Palestinians as a whole.
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Ref: #127 TrueToo
I agree with your first paragraph.
The BBC reports bring criticism from both sides. I feel they favour the Israeli side. One of the causes of criticism from both sides is that the news organisations report the "what" and the "when" and the "who" - they don't report the "why." They don't put the rockets or the incursions in context. To be fair, it depends which BBC we mean. TV is hopeless apart from the rare piece. Radio 4 and World Service are better. But I suspect the BBC prefers the easy option on Israel/Palestine and steers clear of any controversy deliberately.
The 'Hope and Fear' applies to both sides. "Implacable enemy" can be applied to both sides, as can "enemies that have never stopped trying to destroy the country."
As to evidence of a desire for peace from 'their' side. Hamas has offered a ten year ceasefire whilst peace talks take place three times to my knowledge. The six month ceasefire implemented last June was a Hamas initiative. As to Fatah, they've shown commitment in the past. The dificulty is getting all sides to agree at the same time - Hamas, Fatah, Likud, Kadima et al.
I don't see any change in the American position of continued supprt for Israel. But I do see Obama as a 'completer/finisher.' I don't think he'll be content with just an agreement and claim success, unlike past administrations - he'll keep going until it's implemented and working. It seems to me the conditions are right for negotiations - but they're going to have to include Hamas.
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......Truetoo continued
Afterthought: The next few weeks will be a test for both sides. Hamas need to refrain from any rockets whilst Israel sorts their coalition out. It will be a mistake if they increase rocket fire. I don't expect they'll stop all rockets - they don't have that degree of control. But Israel needs to let aid in at a greater rate - and refrain from incursions and air strikes as well.
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Jackdreck
Against the advice of many of his advisors, President Truman recognized the state of Israel ten minutes after it declared itself. The US was the first nation to do that.
Antisemitism like racism in the US still exists but is becoming increasingly rare and hard to find. We expect both to die out before many more generations. By contrast, they never really died out in Europe and appear to be on the rise. No surprise to me given what kind of people, societies, and cultures Europeans are about.
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Those on the BBC blogs who have been baying at the corporation like a pack of jackals and accusing it of the worst of all possible crimes in their eyes - being pro-Israel - can relax. 400 BBC staff have signed a petition against the decision not to broadcast the DEC appeal:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/feb/20/bbc-petition-gaza-appeal
Or maybe you'll be disappointed because you were wrong about a dark anti-Palestinian conspiracy at the BBC.
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143 TrueToo
"A bit of research will illustrate the lack of corroboration of the propaganda you so energetically pump out here and links will illustrate the dubious nature of your "information" Obviously that's why you so carefully avoid supplying any."
If you'd bothered to follow my links in 122 and the many links therein, you would have been able to see all the sources. Jewish leaders have been asked if they refute those sources and to the best of my knowledge they have been unable to.
Observers will note that your own post criticising me for not giving corroboration is not exactly overflowing with links itself!
"Yes, the Zionists were set on immigration to Palestine but to assume they had the power to influence America policy re immigrants is wishful thinking on the part of conspiracy theorists."
something that was quite ironical in view of the fact that some of those expressing the concerns were themselves immigrants or their descendants.
Read: Zionists who didn't give a damn about Jews in peril.
I don't make accusations of anti-Semitism lightly.
One of your responses to me, although I must admit, you are by no means one of the worst offenders:- "And then, of course we see the comparison of Israel with the Nazis. This tactic has lost none of its insult through mindless and endless repetition by the anti-Semites."
You, on the other hand, throw accusations around like confetti.
Please let me know to which accusations you refer. Many documents have come to light which show the indifference of the war time Zionist leadership to the plight of Jews, these are not my accusations they are the findings of Jewish researchers.
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Jackdreck, what difference what happend 65 years ago or 2000 years ago. This is now. As the situation stands, the Palis have about as much as they are going to get. They can make the best of it or continue going down hill. It's up to them but so far, they've stuck to a road that's taking them to the bottom. By demanding it all, they will wind up with nothing. Suits me just fine the way it is. And those rockets landing on TrueToo's land...that's a reminder that they are still in a perpetual state of war for their survival and not to take anything for granted. It's something they'd forgotten along the way and Lebanon was a rude wake up call. They needed it.
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143. At 2:44pm on 21 Feb 2009, TrueToo wrote:
131. ilbeback,
'You misread me, that's for sure. But if you can't make one comment without flinging gross insults around why would you think I would want to debate anything with you?'
I have made several criticisms in Post 131. 132. 133. 134. and 140. You were right about 'hear, hear', and I am not ashamed to admit when I am wrong. But you on the other hand seem unwilling or unable admit your mistakes and to answer my points.
That being said, I would still like to compliment you, as being the most reasonable Zionist apologist on this blog, because, right or wrong, you appear to be genuinely passionate about your cause. That being said, perhaps you should benefit it further by reigning in your attack dog:
142. At 1:43pm on 21 Feb 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
'dontcomeback, Israel does not need to defend its actions to anyone, least of all Europeons.'
.......Do you know where I'm coming from?
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143. At 2:44pm on 21 Feb 2009, TrueToo wrote:
'If you have nothing to contribute other than venom I'll leave you to it.'
I have a point to make on topic. In the recent election, Israel had the choice between right-wing (Kadima), extreme right-wing (Likud) and 'ultra' right-wing (Yisrael Beiteinu). It chose a mixture of the latter two. In the long run, is this not going to lead to more Israeli's coming to the conclusion that:
'Israel does not need to defend its actions to anyone, least of all Europeons'
Do you not believe that this in turn could lead to further Palestinian massacres, and that this will be bad for Israel in the long run? Do you still believe that Israel's attack on Gaza was proportionate?
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148, 151 MarcusBarbarius
"Against the advice of many of his advisors, President Truman recognized the state of Israel ten minutes after it declared itself. The US was the first nation to do that."
In 2003, the Trueman library found and released his wartime diary. As a result, the 'Jewish World Review' said "Truman did it to save his own skin" The diary shows that White House aide Clark Clifford told Truman that he would lose the 1948 election unless he immediately recognised Israel.
"what difference what happend 65 years ago or 2000 years ago"
I'm not in the least bit surprised that you don't want to hear about the treachery of the war-time Zionists but when it suits your case, you refer to the past without hesitation. It is important that Jews everywhere realise how corrupt the early Zionists were because the thugs who control Israel today also follow the warped ideas of militant Zionism and are leading the Middle East into disaster. Israel receives tremendous support from the USA and until this support decreases, the situation can only deteriorate further.
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149. At 7:26pm on 21 Feb 2009, TrueToo wrote:
Those on the BBC blogs who have been baying at the corporation like a pack of jackals and accusing it of the worst of all possible crimes in their eyes - being pro-Israel - can relax. 400 BBC staff have signed a petition against the decision not to broadcast the DEC appeal:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/feb/20/bbc-petition-gaza-appeal'
The BBC's 'crime' is it's refusal to broadcast an appeal which could, even now, save Palestinian lives and alleviate suffering, on a flimsy and contrived pretext. The argument that the aid would probably not get through has been quietly dropped, and the remaining excuse, that not to broadcast the appeal would somehow be a neutral position, was shown to be a joke by the 40,000 complaints received by the BBC, the petition from 200 MP's and the BBC petition of 400. I suppose all these people are anti-Semitic Israel bashers
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These posts are reactively moderated, therefore someone here must have complained about my post 150. It would appear that whoever it was, is trying to suppress damning information about the early Zionist leaders.
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149. At 7:26pm on 21 Feb 2009, TrueToo wrote:
'Those on the BBC blogs who have been baying at the corporation like a pack of jackals and accusing it of the worst of all possible crimes in their eyes - being pro-Israel - can relax. 400 BBC staff have signed a petition against the decision not to broadcast the DEC appeal:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2009/feb/20/bbc-petition-gaza-appeal'
The BBC's 'crime' is it's refusal to broadcast an appeal which could, even now, save Palestinian lives and alleviate suffering, on a flimsy and contrived pretext. The argument that the aid would probably not get through has been quietly dropped, and the remaining excuse, that not to broadcast the appeal would somehow be a neutral position, was shown to be a joke by the 40,000 complaints received by the BBC, the petition from 200 MP's and the BBC petition of 400. But I suppose all these people must be anti-Semitic Israel bashers:
http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=37619
149. At 7:26pm on 21 Feb 2009, TrueToo wrote:
'Or maybe you'll be disappointed because you were wrong about a dark anti-Palestinian conspiracy at the BBC.'
One of the main reason for the journalists 'fury' at the BBC was that news editors had not been consulted about the decision to refuse the DEC appeal. They believed that the decision had been taken behind their backs. The 'conspiracy theory' (as you put it) that Mark Thompson bowed to pressure from the Zionist lobby remains the most plausible explanation and is alive and well. The 400 signatures show only that many ordinary BBC journalists are angry enough at the missed opportunity to assist the DEC appeal and the harm done to the reputation of the BBC to say: 'Not in our name'
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dontcomeback;
"142. At 1:43pm on 21 Feb 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
'dontcomeback, Israel does not need to defend its actions to anyone, least of all Europeons.'
.......Do you know where I'm coming from?"
Of course I do. Dachau. You old sentimental romantic softy. You long for the good old days, don't you?
"Do you not believe that this in turn could lead to further Palestinian massacres, and that this will be bad for Israel in the long run? Do you still believe that Israel's attack on Gaza was proportionate?"
It might lead to more killing of Palestinians. That could happen certainly? Was it proportionate? Why should it be? Because some lawyers in Geneva or New York City decided that a proportionate response is the only one that is legal according to international law? There is no such thing, it is a pure fiction. If there was international law, all of Hamas would be in prison in the Hague for the rest of their lives along with their fellow terrorists in Fatah. There is lawyerspeak, and then there is the real world. Grow up.
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143 TrueToo
"A bit of research will illustrate the lack of corroboration of the propaganda you so energetically pump out here and links will illustrate the dubious nature of your "information" Obviously that's why you so carefully avoid supplying any."
I don't "pump out propaganda" as you put it, I post information which embarrasses you and the other militant Zionist supporters. If you'd bothered to follow my links in 122 and the many links therein, you would have been able to see all the sources. Jewish leaders have been asked if they refute those sources and to the best of my knowledge they have been unable to do so. Observers will note that your own post criticising me for not giving corroboration is not exactly overflowing with links itself!
"Yes, the Zionists were set on immigration to Palestine but to assume they had the power to influence America policy re immigrants is wishful thinking on the part of conspiracy theorists."
something that was quite ironical in view of the fact that some of those expressing the concerns were themselves immigrants or their descendants. In other words; Zionists who didn't give a damn about Jews in peril.
You, on the other hand, throw accusations around like confetti.
Please let me know to which accusations you refer. If you mean my information on the war-time Zionist leadership, many documents have come to light which show their indifference to the plight of Jews in favour of their own agenda to establish the state of Israel, no matter what the cost in Jewish suffering, these are not my accusations they are the findings of Jewish researchers.
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Zionists hardly had to get close to Roosevelt. WW2 leaders and their bloodlines:
http://judicial-inc.biz/Bush_Mossad11.htm
More skeletons come out.....
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160 ilbeback
There are links on that site to David Irving, a most reprehensible individual, so personally I would avoid it.
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There have been rockets and mortars fired into Israel from Gaza on a daily basis since the 'ceasefire'.
The Israel populace is beginning to wonder when the Israeli government is going to do something to end this.
Hamas controls Gaza. The Israelis will tolerate this resumption of war -criminal firing at civilian cities for only so long.
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#160
if your gonna go for ridiculous conspiracy theories why not go all out. Did you know that Barack Obama isnt really American? He's actually a Kenyan immigrant and isnt really the president.
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161. At 1:55pm on 22 Feb 2009, Jackturk wrote:
There are links on that site to David Irving, a most reprehensible individual, so personally I would avoid it.
Thanks Jackturk. As I have said before, I greatly admire Jews who refuse to be part of the racist Zionism movement. It takes a lot to stand up to Zionists in their present position of strength, and this goes doubly for Jews themselves. I detest all people who try to airbrush war crimes out of history, such as the Holocaust and the Palestinian exodus.
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162 Steve
On Tuesday 27th January 2009, in Al Faraheen, Israeli forces shot at several farmers, killing 27 year old farm worker, Anwar al-Breem, Mohammed's cousin.
Video by ISM Gaza Strip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSECq3kxT4I
On Wednesday, February 18, Israeli forces shot a twenty year-old Palestinian farmer as he worked his land in the village of Al-Faraheen, east of Khan Younis in the Gaza Strip.
International Human Rights Activists were accompanying the group of farmers at the time as they worked approximately 500m from the Green Line.
Mohammad al-Breem, 20, was shot in the right leg as the farmers, together with the international Human Rights Activists, attempted to leave the area having worked on their land for 2 hours in full view of the Israeli forces situated along the Green Line.
As the farmers were loading up the parsley and spinach from the agricultural lands shots were fired from Israeli forces on the border. Mohammad was shot in the right leg and evacuated, while still under fire, to hospital.
International Human Rights Activists have repeatedly witnessed Palestinian farmers being shot at by Israeli forces as they attempt to work on agricultural land situated within 700m of the Green Line.Gaza Friends
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166 ilbeback
Marcus will be salivating at your perceptive translations!
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Looks like some of the Israelis have grown to hate the Palestinians as much as the Palestinians have been incited to hate them. Now isn't that a surprise?
I hope he was aiming for the farmer's leg. I'd hate to think he was a lousy shot.
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168 MarcusBarbarius
Marcus, has your honorary membership to the Genghis Khan fan club arrived yet?
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Jackdreck #169
What are you talking about? I'm the President of it.
Personally, I'm rather fond of the method Vlad Tepes (Dracula) used to dissuade the Turks, impaling large numbers of them along their invasion route to Roumania as a warning. The way I read it, when they saw the corpses of their fellow fighters, they turned tail and ran. I'll bet that would work great on the Taleban too. The more gruesome, the better. Deep down, these people are mostly cowards.
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170 MarcusBarbarius
"What are you talking about? I'm the President of it."
I'm surprised that the orderlies let you out to attend the rituals for fear of you getting over-excited.
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And meanwhile, on the front page of the BBC web site today (Monday), they continue to pile on anti-Israel stories.
No matter what the Israelis do, such as continuing to be the only functioning democracy in the area, it is buried under BBC propaganda.
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172 Steve
And there is no shortage of anti-Israeli stories..... from decent Israelis:-
Israeli hatred of opponents of Zionism is endemic.
"In order to grasp the latest devastating and murderous Israeli expedition in Gaza, one must deeply comprehend the Israeli identity and its inherent hatred towards anyone who is not Jewish and towards Arabs in particular. This hatred is imbued in the Israeli curriculum, it is preached by political leaders and implied by their acts, and it is conveyed by cultural figures, even within the so-called "Israeli left" ". Israeli-born musician and writer Gilad Atzmon
http://www.redress.cc/zionism/gatzmon20081230
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172. At 3:51pm on 23 Feb 2009, SteveGNyc wrote:
'And meanwhile, on the front page of the BBC web site today (Monday), they continue to pile on anti-Israel stories.'
Steve.
You need to become a bit more sophisticated in your thinking before criticising the BBC (or anyone else for that matter) for being anti-Israeli. You need to stop automatically equating anything that makes Israel LOOK BAD with being 'anti-Israeli' (= anti-Semitic = Israeli bashing etc). I suggest separating negative publicity into two categories.
Category 1: JUSTIFIED CRITICISM. (e.g. Most of the recent criticism levelled at Israel involving Gaza).
This type of criticism should be listened to and the root causes addressed. Some tough introspection will be needed, but we can help you with that. This category of criticism is NOT 'anti-Israeli' (= anti-Semitic = Israeli bashing etc.)
Category 2: UNJUSTIFIED CRITICISM. (e.g. All Jews are complicit in the suffering of the Palestinians etc.)
This type of criticism should be contested. We can help you there too, because this category of criticism IS 'anti-Israeli' (= anti-Semitic = Israeli bashing etc)
I know that there can be grey areas between the two, but if the Zionist apologists would at least be willing to admit to the blatantly obvious stuff (e.g. Israel's 22 day assault on Gaza was premeditated and grossly disproportionate), then we could move on to settling this thing like mature adults.
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On post 122 Jackturk wrote:
Very interesting background information can be viewed
here http://www.palestinejournal.net/lilienthal_how-zionists-sabotaged-rescue.htm
here http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner1223.html
and here http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner05252005.html
How come nobody as responded (marcus TT etc)
Have YOU got something to HIDE!
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175 Electric-Badger
Yes, it has also surprised me that Marcus and TrueToo have not come back to seriously refute any of the claims made in those links.
A debate needs to be had over the legitimacy of the Zionist case so that those Jews who are genuinely interested in a just peace but who have not been exposed to the true nature of Zionist history, can be shown the iniquity of it's aims and methods and thereby maybe start to influence the Israeli government and those who support it, into reaching an equitable solution with the Palestinians.
174 Ilbeback
How can anyone (apart from the usual suspects) dispute the logic in what you have said?
If they are not just pushers of the maxim "my Zionism right or wrong" they should be honest enough to admit that militant Zionism has wreaked havoc in the Middle East and until it is abandoned, peace will never be achieved.
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Glasgow University carried out an extensive three year study into 'TV news coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and of how this coverage relates to the understanding, beliefs and attitudes of the television audience'. It was published in a book called 'Bad news from Israel'.
The report, which included an extensive survey of 8oo people, systematically and quantitatively revealed institutionalized pro-Israeli bias among the media, although. The widespread nature of this bias can only be the result of one side being far more effective than the other in promoting its version of events. In the same way that the Palestinians are massively inferior in terms of military strength, the same applies equally on the media front e.g.
According to the authors, television news is the main source of information on the Israel-Palestine conflict for about 80% of the population. Their research found that on British television, particularly on BBC1, there was a preponderance of official 'Israeli perspectives'. Israelis were interviewed or reported more than twice as much as Palestinians. The list goes on and on.
http://www.gla.ac.uk/centres/mediagroup/badnews.htm
The Balen Report was discussed at length on the DEC blog. If it is anything like the Glasgow University study, then our Zionist friends will be in for a big disappointment.
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And there is no shortage of anti-American stories..... from seemingly decent Europeons..but appearances can be deceiving.
Europe's hatred of America is endemic.
This hatred is imbued in the European curriculum, it is preached by political leaders and implied by their acts, and it is conveyed by cultural figures, across the entire European political spectrum.
Europeans have a very long sordid history. In fact its major feature when you first learn it is a litany of wars, colonial conquest, exploitation, racism, hypocricy, classism, sexism, religious persecution. Among its favorite targets are Jews. It learned nothing, not even from WWII. To this day it will not stand up to aggression even where its own survival is at stake such as in Afghanistan, Iran, previously Iraq, even the threat of being engulfed by the USSR. It thwarts personal initiateive, rejects individuality and individual success. It is a tyranny of the worst kind. It is a bundle of lies and hate. And now it is in a financial and demographic death spiral that will leave it the wasteland it deserves to be. No other area of the world, no other corner of civilization compares to it. Yet its self delusion, it own false sense of self importance never ends.
This is why as an American I reject it. I take nothing it does or says seriously. I think Americans should ignore it, write it off compltelely. It is in a word contemptable and beyond hope. There's a much larger world out there. Secretary of State Clinton's first visit abroad was correctly to Asia. The next one will be to the Middle East. Frankly it doesn't matter when or even if she ever gets around to Europe. They just don't count for anything. Their interests are not America's interests their occasional words to the contrary notwithstanding.
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178 MarcusBarbarius
Maybe someone more qualified could respond to you with advice on how you could treat your persecution complex.
But maybe you could take comfort from seeing people who are even more persecuted than you:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYAgyv2MKyI
Get well soon.
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#177 IlBeBack
Your post reminds me of what Nietzsche said about Truth being what the powerful want it to be. What religion has done for the last two thousand years or so is now what the media is doing. It goes to show that if you want the Truth you have to go get it yourself and be mentally brave.
One only has to look at the news items and arguments made against Iran by pro-Zionist media. Iran is doing nothing illegal in attempting to ascertain nuclear power - its their right and is indeed illegal to stop them. Recent news said that Iran has over a ton of low level uranium. If Iran had the technology (which they don't) they could make one bomb! And that they will destabilise the region!! Is this a joke? Israel does very little other than destabilise the region and has over 300 nuclear warheads. Iran hasn't invaded another country for two thousand years! These 'truths' are not in the interests of the powerful so are muted and consequently inverted.
The newly elected (sic) Israeli PM once said that 'this is 1938 and Iran is the Germany'; if anything it's 1941 and Israel is the Germany!
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#178 Marcus Erronous
Among its favorite (sic) targets are Jews.
If anything Europe's favourite target has been anyone non-European (especially Arabs, Indians (both east and west) and Africans. Your ignorance of Europe is well known. I remember you stating that Jews were burnt when you went to France for a couple of weeks in the early seventies!!
It has been mentioned elsewhere that your opinions are typical of that from a New Jersey trailer park. Not there's anything wrong with that but it needs to be designated as such.
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cecilia, you are the joke. You really don't get it do you. And here I thought you were just being perverse. I gave you more credit than you deserved. Because the consequence of a nuclear attack is so devastating to any country, there are only two alternatives if a nation that threatens yours is developing a nuclear technology program. One is full and open disclosure which is the goal of the NPT. This assures the country being threatened that a nuclear weapons development program is not in progress. Short of that, the inevitable consequence is a pre-emptive strike to prevent that technology from being developed. In Israel's case, its only effective pre-emptive option is a nuclear strike on Iran. I know you don't get it because you don't want to get it. But that is how it is. Iran is playing with fire.
I didn't live in France for a couple of weeks, it was nearly a couple of years. Nearly. What I said was it was the only time in my life I'd ever seen blatant anti-semitism. At an industrial trade fair, our party was refused service at a German Rathskeller because some of our party was Jewish. It made me wonder why America was defending Germany or any of Europe for that matter. I still don't have a satisfactory answer. Europe isn't worth defending IMO, certainly not with American treasure and blood. Anyway, it's in a "spiral" as that guy Howard Schultz, CEO of Starbucks put it the other day when he got Peter Mandelson so angry. Of course Mandelson was angry....because it is true and he knows it. Do you think I care? I haven't lost one wink of sleep over it.
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Marcus
Iran have not broken the terms of the NPT - unlike the USA and Israel amongst others. Iran hasn't illegally invaded another sovereign country - unlike USA and Israel amongst others.
The modern Israeli state has shown itself to be contemptible towards the suffering of others, especially Palestinians, whilst demanding that world takes into account its 'existential security'. Moreover, a rouge state that has no borders and uses military hardware to attack and kill civilians under its care.
The new Israeli PM wants to attack Iran - I'm not 100% convinced that he'll use exclusively conventional weapons. My fear is that he will seek a final solution to the problem of Iran. Like I said: its 1941 and Israel is new Germany!
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"Iran have not broken the terms of the NPT "
Iran has violated three Security Council resolutions telling it to stop enriching uranium. Evidently those who like to cite Security Council resolutions deliberately misinterpreting them when it comes to Israeli settlements feel that they can just ignore the ones they don't like on a far more critical issue and pretend they don't exist. Why not just eliminate the UN altogether as a worthless pack of windbags on the East River and in fancy buildings in Geneva? Think of all the money wasted we could save.
"The modern Israeli state has shown itself to be contemptible towards the suffering of others, especially Palestinians"
Just more of your interminable pack of foul lies. The number of well documented cases of Israeli hospitals treating Palestinians for any and all manner of illness and injury just as they would treat Israeli Jews is so great it is beyond counting. But even if it were true, it would hardly be surprising considering how most of the outside world has treated Israel and Jews. Only the US in recent decades has treated it well. This is one reason Jew hating Europe is so angry at the US. Your side is losing and it will lose. The harder it fights, the more devastating its loss will be.
"The new Israeli PM wants to attack Iran"
I hope your're right and he acts on it. It's long overdue. Every responsible government has said that Iran armed with nuclear weapons is unacceptable but nobody has done anything effective to stop it. For Israel it's a matter of national survival. But it's also a matter of national survival for the US as well. I wrote two letters to President Bush urging him to take whatever measures were necessary to halt Iran's nuclear program immediately in its tracks but to no avail. Hopefully, at least someone with the means to stop them will also have the will. Isreal's only effective means as far as I can see would be a pre-emptive nuclear strike. I hope it is effective as the technology is by now undoubtedly dispersed throughout all of Iran to make it more survivable. If I were directing the course of action, I'd eliminate Iran as a vialble state as the only effective way to eliminate the threat it poses.
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#184
Usual irrelevance and rectumtude from a trailer park in New Jersey.
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184 MarcusBarbarius
Marcus, you've played that record before and it is no better now than it was then. However, as time has moved on, you will now need to honour President Obama with your precious advice, but somehow, I think if Bush ignored you, you've got even less chance with Obama. How about trying Netanyahooligan, I'm sure you and he sing from the same hymn sheet, he may even let you conduct the orchestra.
Anyway, would you please stop beating the Zionist drum for a second and answer this:-
Did the war-time Zionist leaders care more about establishing the state of Israel than they did about saving the lives of Jews?
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184. At 12:01pm on 25 Feb 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
'Iran has violated three Security Council resolutions telling it to stop enriching uranium.'
Which country in the middle east has undeclared nuclear weapons, undeclared biological and chemical weapons and no outside inspections? Which country jailed its nuclear whistle blower for 18 years, 11 of which were spent in solitary confinement, in a windowless 9' by 6' cell?
BBC documentary - Israel's Secret Weapon:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2395002075547394719
Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim served in the Israeli army and has never questioned the state's legitimacy. But its merciless assault on Gaza has led him to devastating conclusions:
'This brief review of Israel's record over the past four decades makes it difficult to resist the conclusion that it has become a rogue state with "an utterly unscrupulous set of leaders". A rogue state habitually violates international law, possesses weapons of mass destruction and practises terrorism - the use of violence against civilians for political purposes. Israel fulfils all of these three criteria; the cap fits and it must wear it. Israel's real aim is not peaceful coexistence with its Palestinian neighbours but military domination.'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine
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184. At 12:01pm on 25 Feb 2009, MarcusBarbarius wrote:
'Evidently those who like to cite Security Council resolutions deliberately misinterpreting them when it comes to Israeli settlements feel that they can just ignore the ones they don't like on a far more critical issue and pretend they don't exist.'
Israel is the target of over 100 UN Resolutions and the Palestinians are the target of none.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/un.html#source (covers 1955 through 1992. See also Wiki)
Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter sets out the UN Security Council's powers to 'determine the existence of any threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression" and to take military and non-military action to "restore international peace and security'. Resolutions concerning Israel have never invoked Chapter VII of the UN Charter. Given that Israel is a rogue state which regularly attacks its neighbours with overwhelming force, possessing WMD and refuses inspections, it behoves us to ask why.
P.S. Apologies for miss-spelling your name in the previous post.
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184. At 12:01pm on 25 Feb 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
'Just more of your interminable pack of foul lies. The number of well documented cases of Israeli hospitals treating Palestinians for any and all manner of illness and injury just as they would treat Israeli Jews is so great it is beyond counting.'
If we take you at your word, all this proves is that SOME Israeli's within the Israeli state are not 'contemptible towards the suffering of others, especially Palestinians', which no-one disputes anyway. It is ironic, however, that the Israeli state itself puts the majority of Palestinians in need of hospital care in the first place. Treating a few of them does not make everything right. As for the 'interminable pack of foul lies', just look at what Jews themselves say about Israel:
http://www.jatonyc.org/ (Jews Against the Occupation)
I would start with the mission statement.
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Jackdreck
"Did the war-time Zionist leaders care more about establishing the state of Israel than they did about saving the lives of Jews?"
Given what happened to the Jews in other lands especially in Europe throughout the centuries, in the long run, establishing the state of Israel and saving the lives of Jews are one and the same.
dontcomeback
"Which country in the middle east has undeclared nuclear weapons"
Hmmm, I wonder who that could be. Now what makes you think there are any in that category?
So called international law and the UN is a bunch of hooey. If it wasn't, then four Arab wars to annihilate Israel and two terrorist wars would have gotten all those Arab leaders in prison for life. Too bad al Qaeda didn't do us all a favor and blow up the UN building instead of the WTC...preferably with the General assembly in session. With less of their hot air, we might have had a little less global warming. I'd like to see the US pull out of the UN and throw them all out of the US. I think most Americans feel they are a worthless waste of time and money.
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184. At 12:01pm on 25 Feb 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
'I wrote two letters to President Bush urging him to take whatever measures were necessary to halt Iran's nuclear program immediately in its tracks but to no avail.'
Bush was a bleeding heart liberal (at least by your standards). Try nipping Obamas head like you're nipping ours. I heard he has links with terrorists. No – not Muslim ones - I mean Israeli ones. His chief of staff for Instance:
http://gawker.com/5078472/obama-already-palling-around-with-terrorists
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dontcomeback
Every President since Truman has supported Isreal. Is Israel a terrorist state? By the standards of the Brutish Government, even America is. Remember how America was born? By Revolutionary War against the Brutish government's Tyrant King George III. America was a rejection of nearly everything European and remains that way...happily.
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#192 MarcusErronous
America was a rejection of nearly everything European and remains that way...happily.
How you can write that in a European language is beyond me.
Not to mention the influence of European philosophers on your lovely constitution!
You know US history? What your lot did to Mexico was very European. I can write of many others in American history.
But what do we expect from a unemployed electrician living in a New Jersey trailer park!
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192. At 05:20am on 26 Feb 2009, Marcus Barbarius wrote:
'Every President since Truman has supported Isreal.'
Yes Marcus. You've isolated the key to the problem.
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cecilia, Europeans love taking credit for America and then criticizing it endlessly but in truth, Europe did not invent America, America invented itself. Europe should spend its efforts looking introspectively if it wants to criticize something. After it has identified and repaired its own major problems, then it can turn its attention elsewhere. That should take about a thousand years. Anyone who wants to get an idea of what Europeans really think a Constitution is about should take a look at that 400 page dung heap of a tome they composed and then the even more wordy dung heap Lisbon, son of the EU Constitution. But don't try reading it, it is not readable and you could hurt yourself in the attempt.
dontcomeback;
So we get down to it. America is the problem because America's government and people support Israel overwhelmingly and give it whatever it needs to survive. I personally thought after what happened in the lead up to the invasion of Iraq, it was time for America to pull the plug on Europe. Given the financial crisis, the rise of China and India, dependence on Russian energy, the demographic time bomb, global warming, and a few other unsolvable problems, maybe that's already happened. If it has, I won't miss it when it's gone. The place is a museum, a junkyard of failed ideas forcably imposed on its own people and the world. Like sands through an hourglass, its time is running out.
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Rubbish Marcus! Europeans did invent America. The majority of Americans are of European descent and you know it (after your forebears murdered the natives). The things you dislike about Europe are there in America - you just refuse to see it.
You revel in the potential mass murder of people of different religions and culture - all very European! But don't let that stop you.
The only thing un-European about you Marcus is your anti-Enlightenment thinking which puts you in par with Islamic fundamentalists. They're anti-Europe too. You should give them more respect.
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The people who left Europe began making the transformation to Americans with their first step off the boat. That's when they had to survive on their wits, use their ingenuity. All of the old rules from Europe were worthless. There was nothing in the European experience that prepared those who went to America for what they would face. Survival knew no class boundaries, no respect for credentials. They lived and died on their wits, ability to adapt, inventiveness alone. By 1776, European and Ameican civilizations had completely diverged already. Yes it has taken a long time for Americans to cast off the last vestiges of the horrible legacy of European civilization but it is in its final throes. It won't be much longer before a majority of Americans are no longer even of European descent but it won't matter one bit. Americans are not at all like Europeans. And how glad I am of it having lived among both.
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Returning to the Israeli elections....Hamas rockets have been hitting Israel every day since this thread started.
(Needless to say, this daily occurrence has not been mentioned by the BBC.)
Exactly what is the Israeli voter to ask from his party leader?
The rockets and mortars are hitting daily. The Hamas ceasefire pledges are apparently worthless.
Hamas, as before, is inviting a violent response in pursuit of their extremist goals, using the Gazans as shields and involuntary 'martyrs'. The Israelis forming a government cannot ignore this as the rockets hit Israel.
One might also ask why the BBC acts like this rocketing is not a factor...or even a fact.
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#196 dceilar, I think you've hit the nail on the head with your analysis of old Marcy - the very things he claims to despise about Europeans and those of Islamic faith are the same that he takes pride in himself for.
You can always tell when this happens - instead of arguing against what you've said the duffer just spouts off his usual doomsday scenarios.....
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190 MarcusBarbarius
"Given what happened to the Jews in other lands especially in Europe throughout the centuries, in the long run, establishing the state of Israel and saving the lives of Jews are one and the same."
I suppose that's one way of ducking the question but in fact it is exactly the type of bogus excuse that Bush and Blair used to attack Iraq; - don't worry if we bomb the hell out of you, it's for your own good, oh and by the way you should be grateful to us. Tell that to hundreds of thousands of Jews who lost their lives because of the fanaticism of the Zionists. Marcus, you can't see further than your own vile prejudices.
Your problem is that you are blind to the evils of Zionism and are prepared to defend it at all costs as shown by your answers to me for posting information which destroys your case. If you were not a zealot, you would join with others and try to get this information out to Jews so that they can learn the truth and pressure the Israeli government to begin the process of transforming Israel into a fully democratic, responsible state.
It's a great shame you see my information as a threat whilst totally being unable to recognise the harm that the militant Zionists have done to the Palestinians, the Jews and the world. If you were a reasonable person and could just take the blinkers from your eyes for a second you would recognise it.
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192 MarcusBarbarius
Every President since Truman has supported Isreal
Marcus, why do you repeat this nonsense? I've already shown you that even the Jewish establishment no longer believe that Truman supported Israel, he did it to save his own skin. As a matter of fact, when he was asked to sign the declaration of support, either he or one of his aides crossed out the words JEWISH STATE because they could see they were being asked to support a racist entity and instead, inserted by hand, the words STATE of ISRAEL, see:- http://www.trumanlibrary.org/photos/israel.jpg
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195 MarcusBarbarius
Marcus, I think your obsessions are causing you to stray slightly off topic but just for fun I'll play the game.
You never fail to take the opportunity to criticise Europe whilst extolling the virtues of America. America is without doubt a great country from the point of view of science and technology and on the whole Americans are open and hospitable.
However that contrasts sharply with the fact that at least half of them believe in fairy stories - creationism - the health service is run for profit not need, Americans sanction judicial murder - capital punishment - and your financial system has almost brought the world to its knees!
There are many more 'faults' I could mention but I would prefer to debate the topic in hand rather than be deflected too far by your smoke and mirrors tactics, shame on me for falling for it.
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198 Steve
Like you, many of us in the UK have given up on the BBC for failing to provide an accurate picture of the conflict in the Middle East. You would get much better coverage by checking out Al Jazeera:- http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/
Whilst you are at it you could also view:-
"Palestinian farmers, accompanied by international Human Rights Workers (HRWs), were fired upon by Israeli forces in the village of Khoza’a, near Khan Younis, this morning. The farmers and HRWs were attempting to work on land around 300m from the ‘Green Line’."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDD8ANFgwtA
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192. At 05:20am on 26 Feb 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
'Is Israel a terrorist state?'
What was Gaza about, if not an attempt to terrify an entire population into submission using WMD?
192. At 05:20am on 26 Feb 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
'By the standards of the Brutish Government, even America is. Remember how America was born? By Revolutionary War against the Brutish government's Tyrant King George III. '
You would not be the first person to mention 'America' and 'terrorist state' in the same breath.....certainly since the Zionists persuaded them to invade Iraq anyway.
'Every day Saddam remains in power with chemical weapons, biological weapons, and the development of nuclear weapons is a day of danger for the United States.'
Sen. Joseph Lieberman, D-CT, September 4, 2002
'Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction.'
Dick Cheney August 26, 2002
'If we wait for the danger to become clear, it could be too late.'
Sen. Joseph Biden D-Del., September 4, 2002
'If he declares he has none, then we will know that Saddam Hussein is once again misleading the world.'
Ari Fleischer December 2, 2002
For bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue, weapons of mass destruction (as justification for invading Iraq) because it was the one reason everyone could agree on.
Paul Wolfowitz May 28, 2003
http://thinkprogress.org/the-architects-where-are-they-now/
The Zionist PR masters know nothing, if they don't know how to terrify a nation into going to war. They have been doing it to their own people for years, and America is amateurish by comparison. The Israeli Zionists who lead America into Iraq don't care if perpetual war, fought by Americans, for the sake of greater Israel destroys the American economy, and reputation.
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Jack,
I'm sure you are totally satisfied with your views on Israel.
They are wrong.
The 'information' you cite is mostly just made up. All you are proving is that there are people who hate Jews so much, they are willing to say and believe (and do) anything to make their grimest wishes come true.
That is why Jews fight back nowadays, because of people like you.
They will no longer just roll over and die because of your racist beliefs.
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205 Steve
The information I have posted is as shocking to me as it seems to be to you. It is not stuff I have made up but facts uncovered by Jewish researchers.
If you have the courage, click on this:- http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner05252005.html and you will see that back in 2005, Lenni Brenner, one of those researchers has challenged the British Board of Deputies to debate his findings and as of today, Mr.Brenner assures me that he has not received any challenges.
It does you no credit to call me racist because if you have read my posts, my criticism is of Zionists not Jews and as you are aware Zionists are not confined to any one race or creed.
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Oh please. You just hate Jews so much you want to believe it. Keep telling yourself these mythical 'Zionists' collaborated with the Nazis. The entire assumption is absurd. And the more you look at it, it becomes even stupider.
Whether being Jewish means believing in the state of Israel is immaterial to the people you and the Left want to whip up. They attack anyway.
Take a look at the anti-Jewish incidents across Europe. They are all performed in the name of 'anti-Zionism'.
Turk, you have produced hundreds of posts, each more baseless and sick than the ones that precede it.
Spreading these lies and libels further does not make them any truer.
Sure, there is a vast evil conspiracy out there...and if you looked at your own actions, you would realize that you are part of it.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
207 Steve
If you would just calm down for a second and ask yourself why MarcusBarbarius the rhotweiler has not refuted any of the information I have posted, you would realise that it is because it is true. The best he can do is mention some silly point about Brits being royalists, what that's got to do with anything only Marcus' addled brain knows.
Rather than me giving you the information, please do your own research and then come back and let us know what you have found. We can then debate it further. In case you fail to make any headway, in due course I will give you some more leads. I can't be any fairer than that can I?
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Jackdreck, I don't refute your whatever it is because I don't read it. Why should I take you or anything you say seriously? So far you haven't convinced me that you are anything more than an antisemitic hate monger. And that in Europe, you have a lot of company. Small wonder I couldn't care less if your ship sinks.
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Robin Lustig:
The elections in Israel were confusing for most outsiders and also for the people inside Israel....
~Dennis Junior~
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210 MarcusBarbarius
Morning Marcus, thank you for that little demonstration of petulance.
Your unconvincing reply that you don't read my posts doesn't do you justice. Blogs are your hobby and I know from the past that you read every word.
Narrow minded bigots, who only want to put their own opinions across, refuse to read the views of others - surely you're not in that category....are you?
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#207 Steve
I'm afraid you are backing the wrong horse on this.
Even Wikipedia notes the contact the Stern Gang had with the Nazis.
These revisonist Zionists are not the good guys they portray themselves to be!
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213 dceilar
Excellent links, the truth is out there for those who wish to find it.
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jackdrek, wrong as always. But then you are a European so it comes as no surprise to me. Now if I hated everything and everyone around the world who was say not American, then I'd be a bigot. But I restrict it only to those who deserve it. Europeans are at the top of my list. You are a prime example of why. Your views seem to me to be typical of many Europeans. It's not my hobby, I just consider it my civic duty to not merely take your kind down a peg but to knock you off your high horse, the pedistal you've put yourself on. Now I don't feel the same way about most Asiatics, Latin Americans, Africans, for example. Just Europeans. It's just to let you know that not only is there a backlash to Europe's anti-American, anti-Jew, and other trash attitudes but that it is out there in the land of America in large numbers even if it is usually silent. But I'm hardly alone as an American. People in many other nations feel the same way. Here's a BBC article about one more crime your piratical nation and continent has perpetrated;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7911691.stm
"China has condemned what it calls the illegal auction in Paris of two bronze artefacts taken from a Chinese palace 150 years ago.
The strong statement said China did not recognise the 31m euro (£28m, $39m) sale of the bronze rat and rabbit.
It also ordered tighter checks on artefacts that Christie's auction house takes into or out of China.
The bronzes were sold as part of the estate of late French fashion designer Yves Saint Laurent.
China says the animal heads were part of a collection of 12 looted from the Old Summer Palace in Beijing in 1860 when it was sacked and burnt by French and British armies during the Second Opium War."
This is very reminiscent of the Nazi looting of art, property and money from Jewish homes when 6 million Jews were arrested and sent to die in concentration camps in WWII. Lots of the booty is still unrecovered. With interest, there's still probably hundreds of billions in Swiss bank accounts the banks and Switzerland use for themselves. Europe hardly ever created much of its own wealth, it has always had disdain for personal enterprise. Instead, what it got, it stole. Now with that ability gone, it will go broke. It does not have the wherewithall to rebuiltd itself, either as nations or as individuals. Anyone in Europe who has any ambition in life sooner or later leaves...often to wind up in America. That is because a land of opportunities offers the possibility of success whereas in a land of guarantees, the best you can hope for is mediocrity. Most in Europe don't even rise to that. Take a country like France. A few years ago, the best selling book was Bonjour Paresse, hello laziness. It was a roadmap for finding a career as a mid level flunky manager where you could make a good secure salary without ever doing an honest days work in your life. That sums up Europe in a nutshell. We didn't invent the term Eurotrash for nothing.
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215 MarcusBarbarius
A couple of little misconceptions there in your analysis Marcus, Anti-American feeling is far greater than any perceived anti-European feeling.
America doesn't bother with the small stuff, it has looted whole countries!
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The rockets continue to hit Israel, BTW. Unreported by the BBC.
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217 Steve
Steve, don't worry about it, neither has the BBC reported the continued firing on Palestinians by the Israelis, nor the abductions of Palestinians, nor the expulsion of Palestinians from their homes in Jerusalem, it's just the BBCs way of staying 'neutral'
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It’s all about pros and cons - or is it?
Depending on your viewpoint - YOUR post will portray what’s good for YOUR side, and THEIR post will portray what’s good for THEIR side.
IT’S ONLY NATURAL.
But maybe there’s another way to look at this.
Like it or not WE are a community, an INTERNET COMMUNITY and like any community we can go one of two ways. We can do a post that says this and somebody will counteract it by saying that. WE end up in a perpetual circle of disagreement, with point scoring and insults.
How about we do what all communities SHOULD DO – inform, help, disagree, debate, assist, fall out, make up, etc
It’s all about INFORMATION and EDUCATION.
If somebody can inform or educate me with FACTS – then I would be a fool to dismiss them – NO MATTER HOW MUCH OF A FANATIC I WAS.
We DO have the power and if we let that power dissipate – then shame on us.
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219 Electric-Badger
Good post Electric.
There are a number of different types of posters here:-
'Neutrals' who see injustice on both sides but are willing to look at the root causes and possible solutions.
Those who only have one agenda and a one-sided solution.
Those who couldn't really care less but make the odd comment.
The first type of poster will almost certainly never convince the second, either that they are neutral or that they have any views worth listening to.
However, there are probably others who read these posts without ever contributing and they are just as necessary, otherwise we are just arguing amongst ourselves for the sake of it.
I emphasised 'neutrals' earlier because even though someone may start out neutral, as I did, once the full history and background to the situation is known, it should be impossible not to recognise the injustices that the Palestinians have endured since the advent of Zionism, not withstanding the Jewish suffering which is well documented.
Somewhere down the line there has to be a mutually acceptable solution and by discussing the issues we may be able to flush out the options, admittedly so far without too much success!
As I see it, there are five possibilities.
Anyone care to pick a favourite or add another?
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Ref #220
George Mitchell to the press, and Bill Clinton in a speech, both said last week that the "two state solution" is the only option under consideration. Why Bill Clinton should say this in USA, on the same day day George Mitchell made his comments in Jerusalem is open to speculation.
I haven't heard Hilary Clinton on the subject since appointment, but in 1998 as First Lady she declared her support for an independent state of Palestine. The White House had to say Mrs Clinton's comments were her own personal views and did not represent the position of the Clinton Administration.
What happens to half a million Iraeli settlers on the land that is supposed to be reserved for the Palestinians is the big question in this scenario. I imagine alternative land of equal value to the Palestinians might be possible. But then there's Jerusalem itself. There's a long way to go yet. Perhaps Israel should accept the ten year ceasefire offered by Hamas whilst negotiations take place. Makes sense to me.
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The only people who want "neutral" reporting of a war between the good guys and the bad guys are people rooting for the bad guys. Well your bad Pals are losing. I know you don't like hearing about it but that's the way it is and that's the way it is going to stay. Capiche?
BTW SteveGNyc, the Brutish Bullcasting Corporation is anything but fair and balanced. Don't hold your breath waiting for them to tell the news in full. It's edited by people like Jerkturk.
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222 MarcusBarbarius
Marcus, is there any possibility that just for once you could be constructive instead of destructive?
Do you have a solution to the conflict which is a little less primitive than mass slaughter?
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7916191.stm
Much of the world has become an antisemitic sewer or at least is being driven by one. The sewer rats who steer it are gaining strength, their influence only having ebbed for a relativley brief time after WWII. They are the people who have formed your opinions. But now with so many examples such as the recent one by Bishop Williamson, it seems to be returning in force. You don't hear any clarion calls against real racism such as the murder of 200,000 Blacks in Sudan and the impending loss of life of 2 million more. You don't hear the outcry over racism in France or Germany or Italy or Spain.
I may yet see the end of human life on earth whether through the ravishing long term effects of global warming, nuclear war, famine from overpopulation, or any of a number of other things. The financial crisis the whole world faces hasn't even begun to take its toll yet in large numbers of deaths. Having lived much of my lifespan, I will not be sorry if it ends at about the same time my normal reasonable life expectancy is at an end. It will be comforting to know I lived in the most interesting of times in history and in the end, the species got exactly what it deserved through its own hands, extinction. You are a prime example of why.
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224 MarcusBarbarius
Marcus, I genuinely believe that we should all be grateful to you for your contributions. I am being serious and in no way sarcastic. Your contributions have demonstrated to readers exactly how difficult it is to find an answer to the Middle East conflict.
Your posts are so full of uncompromising racism, bitterness, anger, hatred and belligerence, which I believe is typical of those running Israel at the moment, that until those people are gone and replaced by others of a more conciliatory nature, the Middle East problem will never be solved.
In telling contrast to you and other Zionist supporters who have contributed here, it is striking that not one Palestinian or Palestinian supporter has posted opinions expressing any hatred towards Israelis, unlike you and your hateful attitude towards the Palestinians.
The arrogance and contempt that you and the Israeli leadership show towards anyone who dares to criticise their actions is well demonstrated by Shimon Peres in 'ilbeback's' link here:-
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2395002075547394719
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"In telling contrast to you and other Zionist supporters who have contributed here, it is striking that not one Palestinian or Palestinian supporter has posted opinions expressing any hatred towards Israelis"
What a joke you are jerkturk. Hatred for Jews is the only thing you and those of your views have posted here. It is for that reason that a really big war in the Middle East is inevitable. Your side will be wiped out.
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226 MarcusBarbarius
"Hatred for Jews is the only thing you and those of your views have posted here"
Marcus, how on earth would you know that? you said you don't read any of my posts; not as clever as you thought you were are you :-)
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Well, what do you know? The BBC finally posted a story this morning about five missiles fired into Israel.
One of them hit a school, fortunately empty.
Those cuddly Hamas 'militants' are such rascals, aren't they?
Hold your applause, they may yet achieve their goals of slaughtering many, many more Israeli citizens.
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227 Jackturk
Marcus grimaces, thumps the desk and says "S..t, been stuffed again by that damn Jackturk"
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Here's the link to the missile story:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7916555.stm
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225 jackturk:
Thanks for the link to that video. It shows quite graphically that Israel is a sham democracy run by what are little more than gangsters!!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2395002075547394719
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228 Steve
Happy now? but just a couple of small points, the article doesn't actually say it was Hamas that launched the rockets and you notice the way it was framed. It said Israel's air strikes were a 'response' but it didn't say that the militant's rockets were a response to the continued aggression of Israel towards the Palestinians. Since the 'cease fire' Palestinians have been bombed, shot at, abducted and blockaded by Israel.
You must look out for this not so very subtle bias of the BBC towards Israel.
231 Jay
We owe our thanks to 'ilbeback' for unearthing that video.
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No bias in that BBC article. Just the BBC finally telling it like it is: Israel responds to the rocket attacks from Gaza. No terror from Gaza = no response.
And if Hamas and the rest of the motley terror crew and their Iranian and Syrian backers could finally rein in their obsession to kill Jews and destroy Israel there would be a real chance for peace in the region.
Unfortunately they are incapable of it.
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Glasgow University did a remarkable study into the way that the UK media reports on the Israel Palestine conflict. The findings corroborate everything we have been trying to tell our Zionist friends about pro-Israeli media bias. They have been brought together in a book entitled 'Bad News from Israel':
http://www.gla.ac.uk/centres/mediagroup/badnews.htm
e.g. One of the major findings:
'There was a strong emphasis on Israeli casualties on the news, relative to Palestinians (even though Palestinians had around 2-3 times the number of deaths as Israelis). In one week in March 02 which the BBC reported as having the most Palestinian casualties since the start of the intifada, there was actually more coverage on the news of Israeli deaths. There were also differences in the language used by journalists for Israelis and Palestinians - words such as ‘atrocity’, ‘brutal murder’, ‘mass murder’, ‘savage cold blooded killing’, ‘lynching’ and ‘slaughter’ were used about Israeli deaths but not Palestinian. The word ‘terrorist’ was used to describe Palestinians by journalists but when an Israeli group was reported as trying to bomb a Palestinian school, they were referred to as ‘extremists’ or ‘vigilantes’ (BBC 1 lunch time news and ITV main news 5/03/02). TV News coverage influenced some viewers to believe most deaths had been Israeli as in these comments about the reporting of suicide bombs':
The study has had some excellent reviews, and makes fascinating reading. The main points are summarized at the above link and some key excerpts from the book are provided.
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233 TrueToo
"No bias in that BBC article. Just the BBC finally telling it like it is: Israel responds to the rocket attacks from Gaza. No terror from Gaza = no response."
It is obvious to anyone who read the article that it is quite clearly biased towards Israel. It mentions rockets being fired from Gaza since the truces began and says that the Israeli air strikes were in response but it does not mention that the aggression of the Israelis has not stopped since the cease fires and that the rockets from Gaza could equally be a response.
It was either deliberate bias or sloppy journalism, neither of which is acceptable.
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233. At 9:18pm on 28 Feb 2009, TrueToo wrote:
'No bias in that BBC article. Just the BBC finally telling it like it is: Israel responds to the rocket attacks from Gaza. No terror from Gaza = no response.'
You only seem to accept that the BBC is unbiased when they portray Israel as the helpless victim and Palestine as the nasty villain. No one wants to see rockets fired into Israel, but you're missing the fact that the 'terror from Gaza' is in itself in response to Israel turning Gaza into a 'concentration camp'. 15% of Gaza was destroyed by the disproportionate Israeli attacks.
Perhaps if the Zionists allowed some building materials past the blockade then young Gazan males would be able to seek gainful employment rebuilding their shattered city, rather than be tempted into possible revenge for murdrered relatives and for the ongoing collective punishment being imposed upon them daily.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7913313.stm
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jerkturk, I don't read your references. I know they are even more filled with hate for Jews than your postings.
It is so nice to read this diatribe from you Euros. It will remind me when Europe is wiped away that nothing of value was lost from the world. It will be any day now, any day.
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TT HELP US!
We have created a monster. MarcusBarbarius has finally cracked after seeing his world-view collapse under the weight of the evidence.
237. At 01:38am on 01 Mar 2009, MarcusBarbariuswrote:
'It will remind me when Europe is wiped away that nothing of value was lost from the world. It will be any day now, any day.'
I hope that this is an empty threat, like the ones that Palestinians make from desperation, rather than an inside knowledge of official Israeli policy.....I'm not joking.
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238 backtalk
Who is talking about Israel? I'm talking about Wall Street. And Antarctica. I'd move to higher ground if I were you. And pack some lunches. About ten thousand of them.
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@Ilbeback
When Egypt ran Gaza for 20 years, was it their 'concentration camp'?
The Palestinians have been kept in their segregated towns by Arab countries for sixty years.
They are not allowed to become citizens or mix in the culture and political system of any of their 'hosts'.
The amount of their integration was notable in Kuwait, where, in 1991, the Palestinians were kicked out of the country for suspicion of collarborating with Saddam Hussein.
And we all remember what happened after the PLO attempted takeover in Jordan.
Here's a question: When the situation was better in Gaza just a few years ago, how come the Egyptians didn't allow Gazans to cross their then-porous border and move to 'freedom' in Egypt?
First their fellow Arabs and now Hamas are using the Gaza population as pawns for their own political purposes.
You are kidding yourself.
1) No rockets=no response.
2) No terrorist murder threats=open borders.
3) Using words like 'concentration camp' and 'genocide' is baseless hate speech.
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"Since the end of the military operation in Gaza, over 110 rockets have been fired into Israel, a spokeswoman for Israel's military said.
"If the firing of rockets continues from Gaza, it will be answered with a sharp, painful and strong response," Olmert said Sunday at the start of the weekly Cabinet meeting.
-CNN
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240. At 12:09pm on 01 Mar 2009, SteveGNyc wrote:
'The Palestinians have been kept in their segregated towns by Arab countries for sixty years.'
Without conceding your unreferenced accusations, I would agree that racism and tribal prejudice to 'outsiders' exist in some Arab countries, as they do all over the world. More recently, the muted response of countries to Palestinian suffering has in some cases been shameful. Notably that of Egypt and Saudi Arabia. These failings, however, in no way provide any kind of justification for Israel's slow ethnic cleansing of Palestine, as you seem to imply.
Israel intends to make life intolerable for Palestinians as part of a larger strategy. For a detailed insight into the illegitimate creation of Israel, the way it currently uses checkpoints and barricades to control every aspect of Palestinian lives and the continuing expansion of Israel into Palestinian land, see 'Ex-Communicated: Enclosure Landscapes in Palestine' .
http://www.alternatefocus.org/excomminpal.html
'The Israeli's have emerged as gatekeepers on (Palestinian) land. The gates they open and close at their discretion control the movements and the socio-economic lives of Palestinians. As this image of Bethlehem reveals, the group in power has created a truly foreboding landscape of walls, gates and closed spaces.' (Gary Fields, a professor of communication at the University of California)'
The Israeli imposed 'concentration camp' type environment is an ideal breeding ground for the kind of people who fire rockets into Israel. Conversely, Israel needs the Hamas rocket attacks to justify continued expansion into Palestine as well as mistreatment of the Palestinian people. So they create and sustain an environment which breeds extremist resistance, and at the same time use this extremism to legitimise their own far greater agenda. This simple formula has been used to great effect by Israeli's for decades. No wonder the more perceptive people realise that peace would be disastrous for Israel.
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241. At 1:27pm on 01 Mar 2009, SteveGNyc wrote:
"Since the end of the military operation in Gaza, over 110 rockets have been fired into Israel, a spokeswoman for Israel's military said.
The naive first impression is that Israel has made a fool of itself by believing that it's illegal war would stop the Hamas rockets, rather than encourage them. Granting that the Israeli spin masters had more intelligence than to believe their own ridiculous propaganda, it would appear that this may only be a further move in the larger strategy to establish Greater Israel.
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240, 241 Steve
You have an uninformed and simplistic view of the Middle East. Hasn't any of what's been said and shown here had any affect on you? Only racists and bigots could refuse to recognise the injustices that the Palestinians have endured at the hands of the Israelis.
No matter which way you cut it the Israelis, driven by Zionist zealots, have stolen large areas of Palestinian land by force and they maintain domination over the Palestinians by the use of bullying, terrorism and economic strangulation, with the shameful assistance of the USA.
The Israelis are guilty of the most vile acts of aggression and the western world and its media look on with sinful apathy.
If you haven't watched it yet, please take a look at the latest excellent video posted by 'ilbeback' and if you have an iota of open mindedness you won't fail to recognise the callous behaviour of the Israelis, bearing in mind who actually produced the video.
http://www.alternatefocus.org/excomminpal.html
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"If the firing of rockets continues from Gaza, it will be answered with a sharp, painful and strong response,"
Yeah, sure Steve. What are they waiting for, an engraved invitation?
back
"These failings, however, in no way provide any kind of justification for Israel's slow ethnic cleansing of Palestine, as you seem to imply."
So you suggest that they speed up the process. Interesting. Maybe worth considering.
"'The Israeli's have emerged as gatekeepers on (Palestinian) land."
Actually zookeepers guarding a rabid animal in a cage. You only open the cage door to send food in. The Israelis keep hoping that someday there will be a cure which is why they don't euthanize them. I hold out far less hope.
Jackdreck
"You have an uninformed and simplistic view of the Middle East."
While your more sophisticated and nuanced view is that the state of Israel should just be done away with.
"Israelis, driven by Zionist zealots, have stolen large areas of Palestinian land by force and they maintain domination over the Palestinians by the use of bullying, terrorism and economic strangulation"
Big words for a man who like everyone else in his nation lives off the booty of wealth looted and generated by slaves for centuries in a brutal military empire on which the sun never set. We'll see just how well heirs of the Brutish empire does now that it will have to live by its own efforts.
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245 MarcusBarbarius
"Big words for a man who like everyone else in his nation lives off the booty of wealth looted and generated by slaves for centuries in a brutal military empire on which the sun never set."
They may be big words for you Marcus but when you grow up, you might be able to use words like that, you may even understand them!
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221 Richard
"George Mitchell to the press, and Bill Clinton in a speech, both said last week that the "two state solution" is the only option under consideration."
You made some good points and I have no doubt that two state solution is the only option under consideration. The problem is, each side has a different idea of what it constitutes, which is why Arafat would not proceed, purposely it wasn't clearly defined during the talks.
The Palestinians idea of a state is naturally one that is contiguous and self contained, having all of the freedoms and resources that the Israelis have, i.e. freedom to police their own borders and freedom to defend themselves as any sovereign nation can.
Under no circumstances would the Israelis allow this because it would mean that they would not be allowed to expand any further and they would have to remove all of their settlers from Palestinian land. The Israeli's idea of a two state solution is actually a one and a half state agreement i.e. the Palestinians get half a state, if that.
Unless the Palestinians capitulate completely it is extremely unlikely that they will settle for such a deal.
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The Israel-bashers can twist things around and lie and propagandise as much as they want but there's a simple way to get to the truth. Go back and see who lifted a hand first against the other after those two unilateral cease-fires were called in January. The Palestinian terrorists started firing the rockets first out of their obsession to kill Jews. Israel responded. There's no point in having a debate here if the Israel-bashers wont even acknowledge a simple sequence of events.
The BBC reported it accurately. This is most unusual for the BBC in its coverage of this conflict. It will generally go out of its way to portray the Palestinians in the best possible light and the Israelis in the worst. And if that Glasgow study really did come to the ridiculous confusion that the BBC calls the Palestinians terrorists then I can imagine what the rest of their conclusions are like. It's well known that the BBC has been highly allergic to the 'T' word for many years in its reporting on terrorism worldwide but nowhere more so than in its reporting on Palestinian terror.
However, there have recently been signs that the BBC is beginning to rein in its obsessive support for Hamas and the rest of the motley crew. This appears to be a top-down movement with considerable opposition from the pro-Palestinian ranks. What the BBC really needs to do is replace practically the entire crew currently "reporting" on the Middle East since their bias is set in stone and there is no hope at all of reform. This process may have begun with a change from the habitual knee-jerk, blame Israel first style of the past to a more moderate approach.
Could even be that the BBC can see Labour hasn't a hope in hell of winning the next election and is starting to present a more moderate face towards its upcoming Tory masters.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
248. At 10:48pm on 01 Mar 2009, TrueToo wrote:'And if that Glasgow study really did come to the ridiculous confusion that the BBC calls the Palestinians terrorists then I can imagine what the rest of their conclusions are like.'
Don't just imagine. Please read them if you dare, but sit down first.
http://www.gla.ac.uk/centres/mediagroup/badnews.htm
248. At 10:48pm on 01 Mar 2009, TrueToo wrote:
'However, there have recently been signs that the BBC is beginning to rein in its obsessive support for Hamas and the rest of the motley crew. This appears to be a top-down movement.'
Translation: 'The BBC top brass has buckled under pressure from the pro-Zionist lobby'. We are in complete agreement for once!
248. At 10:48pm on 01 Mar 2009, TrueToo wrote:'What the BBC really needs to do is replace practically the entire crew currently "reporting" on the Middle East since their bias is set in stone and there is no hope at all of reform.'
Good idea. Perhaps we should sack all the current BBC staff and let an 'impartial' organisation such as CAMERA appoint the replacements.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_for_Accuracy_in_Middle_East_Reporting_in_America
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248 TooTrue
"The Israel-bashers can twist things around and lie and propagandise as much as they want but there's a simple way to get to the truth. Go back and see who lifted a hand first against the other after those two unilateral cease-fires were called in January."
You asked for it so here it is in full:-
19th June:
Ceasefire agreement between Israel and the Hamas government comes into force for six months. Israel insisted on a verbal agreement. It stated: cessation of all military hostilities on both sides, opening of Gaza's borders after 72 hours for 30% more trade, unrestricted trade after ten days. Egypt supports the extension of the agreement to the West Bank. (source: International Crisis Group: Ending the War in Gaza. Middle East Briefing No. 26, 5.1.2009, p. 3)
19th June
Israeli warships fire four rockets at Palestinian fishermen in Palestinian waters. On the same day aircraft circling over Gaza City break the sound barrier near the ground and trigger a panic among the people. In the area of Khan Yunis Israeli patrols shoot over the border fence at farmers who work on their fields on the other side of the border. (source: Ma'an, 26.06.2008). This scenario is repeated almost daily.
24th June:
Two young officials of Jihad are murdered in their homes in Nablus by units of the IDF (Israeli Defence Force). On the same day al-Quds Brigades fire three rockets at Sderot in retaliation. (source: Ma'an 24.06.2008) The Israeli side uses the action of Jihad as an excuse to close the border crossings again.
26th June:
The al-Aqsa Brigades fire a rocket on Sderot after many Fatah members have been arrested in raids by the Israeli army. With this the al-Aqsa Brigades want to force the extension of the ceasefire to the West Bank. The spokesman of the Hamas government in Gaza warns the al-Aqsa Brigades that their actions would prevent the lifting of the blockade and favour instead the narrower interests of a organisational and political nature.
29th June:
A delegation of farmers complain to Hamas' Ministry of Agriculture that because of the Israeli bombardment they can no longer cultivate their fields along the border fence.
4th August:
During a meeting of the Israeli labour party the Minister of Defence, Ehud Barak, threatens a ground invasion into the Gaza strip, despite Hamas' adherence to the ceasefire.
8th August:
The director of the secret service Shin Bet, Yuval Diskin, thinks that a ceasefire would reduce the pressure on Hamas to release Shalit. He calls on the army to prepare for a major military offensive. (source: Ma'an 8.8.2008) These statements reinforce the impression among Palestinians that as far as the Israeli military leadership is concerned the purpose of the ceasefire is to gain time in order to prepare an offensive.
29th September:
The Israeli navy sinks a fishing boat (source: http://www.btselem.org/english/testimonies/20080910_israeli_navy_boat_charges_into_a_fishing_boat_witness_al_hasi.asp), after fishing boats were shot at and rammed several times.
4th November:
Israeli troops enter into Khan Yunis. Deliberately targeted projectiles kill six Hamas members and injure several people, including one woman. In the Deir al-Balah several rockets are fired at residential areas. Near Wadi Salqa two houses of the Hawaidi family are destroyed and seven family members, three of them women, are kidnapped and taken to Israel. The same day Israeli border guards prevent French consular officals, who want to get a picture of the situation, from entering the Gaza strip. (Some background information: the dubious tunneller Abu Dawabah is arrested and claims during interrogation that both Hamas and and al-Aqsa brigades had offered him money for kidnapping an Israeli soldier. (source: Ma'an 3.11.2008) One day later the Hamas Ministry of Internal Affairs issues a denial. (See also International Crisis Group: Ending the War in Gaza. Middle East Briefing No. 26, 5.1.2009, p.5)
5th November:
Residential areas in the north of the Gaza strip and Khan Yunis are bombarded. Israeli troops kill a leader of Jihad and six Hamas officials. Because of this, Hamas, the al-Aqsa Brigades and Jihad fire rockets into Israel. Until then Hamas fully observed the ceasefire. Jihad and the al-Aqsa Brigades state that the ceasefire will not prevent them from reacting to Israeli violations of the agreement. In spite of this, Hamas wants to continue the ceasefire and ask Egypt for mediation.
5th November:
The Gaza Strip is completely sealed off. Even food, medicine, fuel, spare parts for generators and water pumps, paper, telephones and shoes can no longer or only in minimal amounts enter the Gaza Strip.
8th November:
Israeli bulldozers enter into the strip at several points. This leads to armed clashes with the units of the DFLP.
9th November:
Hamas Chief Ismail Haniya declares to European delegates who had broken through the sea blockade with a boat of the Free Gaza Movement and visited Gaza that Hamas could live with a solution of the Palestine problem on the basis of UN Resolutions. (source: Ma'an 9.11.2008)
12th November:
A further four Hamas members are killed. Israeli airplanes fire rockets at residential areas. The Palestinian factions are getting ever more skeptical about the ceasefire. Israeli bulldozers cut a 150 metre swath into an area in the Gaza Strip for military patrols, destroying about 750 hectares of agrarian land. (source: Ma'an 21.11.2008)
13th November:
Israeli boarder patrols bar a UN food convoy from passing the border. The DFLP claims that for Israel this was not about the ceasefire, but about breaking resistance to the occupation. In the following days the PFLP, the DFLP, the Popular Committees and Hamas fire projectiles at Israeli places while Israeli airplanes bomb the north of the Gaza Strip.
16th November:
The Israeli Minister of Transport calls for killing the whole Hamas leadership. During new attacks another four members of the Popular Committees are killed. By now 15 people have been killed during the air strikes in recent days. The Popular Committees declare the end of the ceasefire. Their spokesperson blames Israel.
17th November:
The DLFP and Jihad fire rockets into Israel.
18th November:
The food crisis gets worse and worse. 50% of the bakeries cannot operate anymore due of lack of flour. Others use animal feed to bake bread. Israeli tanks enter the strip, there are armed clashes with the PFLP and the mujaheddin, another resistance group of Fatah. The Israeli Navy arrest 15 fishermen and three foreign solidarity activists off the coast of Gaza. The "Internationals" accompanied the fishermen in the hope that their presence would guarantee a minimum of protection. They are taken to Israel and get expelled after six days of solitary confinement. (source Ma'an 18.11.2008). The three fishing boats were given back after 9 days, but one boat was damaged, the GPS device was missing. During their days in prison, the solidarity workers were barred from contacting their lawyers and their embassies. (source: http://www.freegaza.org/de/home/547-three-palestinian-fishing-boats-returned and http://www.freegaza.org/de/home/558-kidnapped-in-gaza]
20th November:
Yet again a Hamas member is killed by targeted rocket strikes. Hamas increasingly comes under pressure from the other groups as well as their own base, who demand they force Israel to keep to the ceasefire. But how?
23th November
Diplomatic sources claim that the Egyptians stepped in and got Hamas and the Israeli government to agree to resume the ceasefire according to the conditions originally negotiated. This is confirmed by Hamas. Hamas spokesman Ayman Taha furthermore states that the other resistance groups also agree to the continuation of the ceasefire - on condition that the blockade is lifted. Israel does not comment on this.
24th November:
A member of the Popular Committee is killed by an Israeli rocket. After Israeli claims that rockets were fired – but no one claimed responsibility for that - the Israeli Minister of Defense Barak retracts the order to open the border for urgently needed food deliveries. As far back as August rockets had been fired on several occasions from the Gaza Strip to the Negev desert, without claim of responsibility, which led to the closure of the border each time. At the time Hamas leader Mammud al-Zahhar accused Israeli agents of creating a pretext for a land invasion. (source Ma'an 12.9.2008). Also at the time the names of groups nobody in Gaza had heard of before and knew anything about crop up such as Ahrar al-Jalil, Tawhid Brigades or Hisb Allah. Some believe they are collaborators wanting to corrupt the ceasefire. Other voices believe they are small radical cells who think Hamas have made too many concessions.
28th November:
The Israeli army kills a man from Khan Yunis, who doesn't belong to any organisation. On the same day eight Israeli soldiers are injured at a boarder border post through attacks by the mujaheddin.
30th November:
Jihad declare they no longer feel bound by the ceasefire. The al-Aqsa Brigades fire projectiles at Sderot again. Hamas and Jihad are warned by mediators from Qatar that Israel plans a major military offensive in the Gaza Strip. The political leadership of Hamas issues an urgent appeal to armed groups including their own al-Qassam Brigades to stop firing rockets into Israel.
2nd December:
Israeli tanks enter the Gaza Strip again. Two teenagers are killed in air strikes.
4th December:
Al-Aqsa Brigades fire rockets at Ashkelon.
5th December:
Massive assaults by Jewish settlers on Palestinians in Hebron. While the al-Aqsa Brigades, the DFLP and the al-Quds Brigades of the Jihad fire rockets at Israeli places as a reaction to the events in the West Bank, Hamas organises solidarity demonstrations with Palestinians in Hebron to rescue what is left of the ceasefire agreement.
7th December:
The blockade in the Gaza Strip is getting more severe. A boat from Israel with peace activists wanting to bring food and gifts for children to Gaza on the occasion of the feast of sacrifice is forced to turn back by Israeli warships. The same fate befalls a boat from Qatar and another one from Libya, both of which want to deliver food to Gaza.
13th December:
Tzipi Livni states that in case a Palestinian state is set up the Palestinian people living in Israel would be expatriated. By now no organisation thinks there is any purpose in extending the ceasefire. Brigades of the DFLP, al-Aqsa, the Popular Committees and Jihad fire at Israeli places on a regular basis. The political leadership of Hamas in Gaza, especially the de facto president Haniya has no means of preventing this, because even their own armed faction, the al-Qassam Brigades, no longer see any sense in the ceasefire.
14th December:
The Hamas leadership abroad states through Khaled Mashaal that Hamas reject an extension of the ceasefire, whereas Haniya still hopes that Egypian mediation will help achieve an extension.
19th December:
On the same day the six-month-ceasefire ends all factions declare at separate mass events that they consider the ceasefire to be finished – even Fatah.
20th December:
Fawzi Barhum, the spokesman of Hamas, calls on all factions to form a common resistance front. His acerbic reply to the Russian demand that Hamas should consider the extension of the ceasefire is that the onus was now on the international community to put pressure on Israel to cease the attacks on the Palestinian people, instead of blaming the victims of these attacks. (source: Ma'an 21.12.2008) But the Egyptians do not react.
23th December:
The former Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Hamas government, Mahmud al-Zahhar, declares once again that Hamas is prepared to continue with the ceasefire agreement, provided Israel adheres to the conditions agreed in June, in particular the lifting of the blockade. But the discourse of al-Qassam Brigades is more subdued. Abu Ubaida, spokesman of al-Qassam Brigades, speaks only about the possibility of suspending the military action and no longer about a ceasefire and does not exclude any military action in Israel if Israel does not stop its agression against Gaza. (source: Ma'an 23.12.2008)
27th December:
The Israeli military attacks the Gaza Strip, killing about 1,360 people, mostly civilians including more than 400 children, by 18th January 2009. Many thousands are injured and made homeless. Israel uses phosphorus as a weapon, turns over a cemetery, shoots at the UN, schools, mosques etc. About 13 people die on the Israeli side, some of them are killed by their own soldiers. The West puts the whole blame for the catastrophe on Hamas.
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248 TooTrue
And since 27th January:-
"The truce is unilateral, hence Israel unilaterally decides not to respect it. Khan Yunos, a Palestinian boy, was killed yesterday, and another was injured. East of Gaza helicopters have showered a residential area with white phosphorous. The same happened in Jabalia. In Khann Younis today, the war ships fired their cannons at an open plain, thankfully without harming anyone. But while I write, the news of storming tanks has just reached me. We're not aware of any Palestinian rockets having been fired in the last 24 hours...
International journalists are clamouring for news all along the Strip, as they only managed to get in today. Israel granted them a pass only now that the massacre is winding down. Those who got here in the thick of the battle have seriously risked being killed, as I was told by Lorenzo Cremonesi, a correspondent for Corriere della Sera. Israeli soldiers shot potholes into the car that he was traveling in . Standing by the blackened skeleton of what remains of Al Quds hospital in Gaza City, an astonished BBC reporter asked me how the army could possibly have swapped the building for a terrorists' den.
I said: "For the very same reason that children running away from a burning building were put in sight of the snipers on the roofs, who don't hesitate to kill them, spreading their grey matter all over the road", to which the journalist furrowed his brow further. The enormous difference between us eye-witnesses and first-hand victims of the massacre, and those who hear about it through our stories, is now further highlighted. From Rome I'm told that the EU intends to freeze the funds assigned for the reconstruction of Gaza as long as it's governed by Hamas. The European Commissioner for External Relations, Benita Ferrero-Waldner, has made her point clear on this score. "The aid for the reconstruction of the Strip", stated the European diplomat, "will only arrive if Palestinian President Abu Mazen will once again re-establish his authority over the territory."
For Gaza's Palestinians this is an explicit invitation from the outside to engage in civil war, or in a coup d'état. It's equivalent to legitimising the massacre of 410 children, who died because their parents chose democracy and freely elected Hamas. "The EU is diligently echoing the criminal policy of collective punishment imposed by Israel. Why not entrust the funds to the UN? Or some governmental organisation?" "The Unites States are free to elect a war-monger like Bush, Israel can choose leaders with bloodied hands like Sharon or Netanyahu, but we, the people of Gaza, aren't free to chose Hamas…", suggested Mohamed, a human rights activist who never voted for the Islamic movement himself. I have no arguments to contradict him".Vittorio Arrigoni, Italian human rights worker
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"George Mitchell to the press, and Bill Clinton in a speech, both said last week that the "two state solution" is the only option under consideration.""
That's why it never gets solved. In an endless but futile effort to seem even handed, the "diplomats" fail to see that this will never work. The prospect of a "Palestinian State" is a sham, a fraud, and its realization would be a nightmare not only for Isreal but for the entire region. It would be a boiling pot of terrorism, a wellspring of poison. This is why even Egypt and Saudi Arabia have finally come to realize just how dangerous it would be and no longer support it. The so called Arab moderates in the region now no longer hope that Israel will go away but that the Palestinians will. For them it is a matter of their own survival. Behind closed doors, it is clear they support Israel even though they are required to publicly condemn them...for the benefit of the Arab street whatever that is.
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#251 Jack
You correctly highlight that the latest Israeli attack in Gaza has been planned well in advance. I argue that it was planned even before the ceasefire - not long after their unpopular invasion into Lebanon IMO.
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Jackturk, when I get a few days I'll try to plough through your latest bit of propaganda. But I did note that your "Vittorio" spoke of the unilateral cease-fire only relating to Israel. Probably he doesn't know or doesn't want to know that Hamas also a declared a unilateral ceasefire around the same time. No doubt you'll have difficulty with that concept. So again, who broke that cease-fire, which was declared, though separately, by both parties?
Try to come up with an honest answer.
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253 MarcusBarbarius
"That's why it never gets solved. In an endless but futile effort to seem even handed, the "diplomats" fail to see that this will never work."
Marcus, you are half right but the diplomats know full well it will never work, so they have to keep talking to make it appear that Israel is not being intransigent, meanwhile, Israel ignores them and carries on with its policies of terrorism and expansion.
As long as the US backs them, Israel is the only party that can solve this issue, they know that they can do whatever they like in the Middle East and no one will prevent them. Fools like Tony Blair stand on Gazan soil amid the death and destruction caused by Israel and say as he did yesterday "we have to stop the rockets coming from here". What a disgrace that man is, whose actions, combined with those of Bush the other dunce, have contributed to this disaster in the first place.
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255 TrueToo
You are a dyed in the wool Zionist, therefore no matter what I or anyone else says, if it's not in support of Israel you will just ignore it.
In my previous posts I have shown that despite Israel claiming that there is a cease fire, they have never stopped their aggression and killing of Palestinians so the question of who broke the cease fire is irrelevant.
Like others of your ilk you grasp at straws to deflect any blame from Israel.
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Jerkturk, if by Zionist, you mean someone who believes the state of Israel has a right to exist as a homeland for Jews, then most Jewish Israelis and nearly all Americans of every religion except maybe Moslems are Zionists. At least 30 million Americans are Fundimentalist Christians who believe that Israel must be a Jewish homeland for the second coming of Christ to occur. For that reason they would never abandon Israel under any circumstances. And unlike many Europeans, they know the history of what happened to the Jews throughout history and during the second World War and are determined it will not be allowed to happen again. For this reason, if it came down to it, forced to choose, the United States would blow away Europe before it would sell out Israel. But don't take my word for it. Just listen to former British ambassador to the US Sir Christopher Meyers' interview with Owen Bennet-Jones on the interview if you can find it in BBC's archives. No country including Britain has as close a relationship with the US as Israel. Not one. And it will not change. Not even under a President named Barack Hussein Obama.
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MarcusDelirious 253 wrote
"a boiling pot of terrorism, a wellspring of poison".
Hmmm after the murder of 400 children I can only think of one outfit that fits that description.
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I believe Israel must understand that ultimately, it is responsible for its own survival and defense, and if it takes all of what the rest of the world is saying about it seriously, it will one day be wiped out. I agree with that It is much better to be feared as potentially violent and ruthless like Russia. Also, Israel has not completely withdrawn from the Gaza Strip - it is very much in control of it. Just because these settlers have been moved - mostly to the West Banks and an extra 4,000 others - it doesn't mean that Israel has 'withdrawn'! It is an Israeli controlled entity. However, the dilemma facing the Israeli voting public is not, and never has been, the simplistic and trite choice "between hope and fear." It always was, and probably always will be, a choice between who can best deal with the unfortunate reality of the implacable enemies that Israel faces - enemies that have never stopped trying to destroy the country.
Dr. Andrew Livingston,
Acai Weight Loss Consultant
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Electric-Badger, you must be talking about London after the firebombing of Dreseden. It wasn't 400 women and children who died that night in Germany at British hands, the number was much closer to 400,000. Well not quite but maybe a good fraction of it.
Santobie, the reason Gaza is under quarrantine by Isreal is that when it wasn't, it used its access to the outside world to import large quantities of weapons to be used to kill Israeli civilians among other things. With its borders sealed, it has resorted to digging tunnels to Egypt under the border. Destroying as many of them as possible was one objective of Israels recent military actions in Gaza. Personally, I'd recommend evacuating at least a mile inside Gaza and heavily mining that area instead of continuing to blow the tunnels up. It would be a bad mistake for the Israelis to relent and allow the Gazans to have free access to the outside again without more than just more worthless promises that those weapons shipments to Gaza would stop.
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~261
You are obsessed with the Allied bombing of Dresden. Considering your country dropped nuclear bombs on Japan when the war was practically over its a bit rich for you to moan about it!
Japan had offered to surrender before the POTUS ordered the bombing. The US wanted to show the Soviets that it had nuclear capability. How many innocents were killed in the original blast? How many later died of the 'atomic plague'?
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Nobody has exact figures but the consensus guesses I've read seem to agree that about 100,000 died immediately in both Hiroshima and Nagasaki each with another hundred thousand each dying later as the effect of radiation and other injuries putting the total around 400,000 for both.
I don't know where you got the idea that Japan ever offered to surrender but certainly not under the terms demanded by the allies which was unconditional surrender. Even after the decision to surrender was made, there was an attempt by a group of Japanese generals to prevent it. It's quite a story involving a recording by Emperor Hirohito and well documented. It was the first time the Japanese public had ever heard his voice. The generals wanted to fight until the last Japanese was dead. Hamas is just as fanatical in their war to destroy Israel.
Probaby many more died in the firebombing of Tokyo than Hiroshima or Nagasaki, maybe more than both combined.
I'm not obsessed with Dresden. I'm just pointing out that when Britain was fighting for its own survival, it had no reservations about how many enemy civilians it killed. Then why should Israel? Correct answer....Israel shouldn't. Then why do they? NATO doesn't. The nuclear war fighting strategy of NATO contemplated during the cold war would have deliberately killed nearly 2 billion people within the first few hours, one third of the world's population. It is likely that within days or weeks, no human being would have remained alive on the surface of the earth. Much of that arsenal is still active and on high alert...on both sides...even though the cold war has been over for 18 years. A miscalculation or technical failure could still trigger a worldwide thermonuclear war.
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254. At 09:44am on 02 Mar 2009, dceilar wrote:
#251 Jack
'You correctly highlight that the latest Israeli attack in Gaza has been planned well in advance. I argue that it was planned even before the ceasefire - not long after their unpopular invasion into Lebanon IMO.'
According to Avi Shlaim (Oxford professor of international relations), Israel has been planning the Gaza assault for over eight months:
'The brutality of Israel's soldiers is fully matched by the mendacity of its spokesmen. Eight months before launching the current war on Gaza, Israel established a National Information Directorate. The core messages of this directorate to the media are that Hamas broke the ceasefire agreements; that Israel's objective is the defence of its population; and that Israel's forces are taking the utmost care not to hurt innocent civilians. Israel's spin doctors have been remarkably successful in getting this message across. But, in essence, their propaganda is a pack of lies.' - Avi Shlaim
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine
Chris McGreal asks 'Why Israel went to war in Gaza' in this excellent article which discusses the pre-planned military campaign and the equally important pre-planned PR campaign.
'After the debacle of its 2006 invasion of Lebanon - not only a military disaster for Israel, but also a political and diplomatic one - the government in Jerusalem spent months laying the groundwork at home and abroad for the assault on Gaza with quiet but energetic lobbying of foreign administrations and diplomats, particularly in Europe and parts of the Arab world.
A new information directorate was established to influence the media, with some success. And when the attack began just over a week ago, a tide of diplomats, lobby groups, bloggers and other supporters of Israel were unleashed to hammer home a handful of carefully crafted core messages intended to ensure that Israel was seen as the victim...'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/04/israel-gaza-hamas-hidden-agenda
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258 MarcusBarbarius
"if by Zionist, you mean someone who believes the state of Israel has a right to exist as a homeland for Jews"
If you had only added "and others" to the end of that quote it would have included me. But Marcus, as usual you skate over the true beliefs and intentions of Zionists, as uttered out of their own mouths since the advent of Zionism. It has been shown in these posts that although there are undoubtedly naive Zionists who don't fully grasp the nature of the beast, Zionists like yourself and the rulers of Israel have no intention of including the "and others" they fully intend, if they get their way, to extend the boundaries of Israel to the whole of 'Palestine' and expel the remaining "and others" by whatever means they can get away with. Those are the Zionists to which I refer.
"nearly all Americans of every religion except maybe Moslems are Zionists."
Nearly all Americans of every religion except maybe Moslems have no idea what a Zionist is!
"At least 30 million Americans are Fundimentalist Christians who believe that Israel must be a Jewish homeland for the second coming of Christ to occur."
That just shows how gullible they are in the US that 30 million Born Again Cretins can believe in such nonsense.
"they know the history of what happened to the Jews throughout history and during the second World War and are determined it will not be allowed to happen again."
And you know that we know the history of the treachery of the war-time Zionist leaders who connived in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Jews and if the present Zionist leaders are allowed to continue with their racist plans, it could possibly happen again.
"For this reason, if it came down to it, forced to choose, the United States would blow away Europe before it would sell out Israel"
I distinctly remember you advising another Zionist contributor that Israel must wipe out the Palestinians because they may not always have the support of the USA!
"Just listen to former British ambassador to the US Sir Christopher Meyers"
Meyers was discredited over his involvement in supporting Blair with the illegal attack on Iraq.
"No country including Britain has as close a relationship with the US as Israel"
And therein lies the problem, I'd call it incest, you can't get much closer than that!
"And it will not change. Not even under a President named Barack Hussein Obama." ibid
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At 8.39pm ilbeback wrote
“And when the attack began just over a week ago, a tide of diplomats, lobby groups, bloggers and other supporters of Israel were unleashed..”
Call me naive but do you really expect me to believe a Government would have people monitoring the internet waiting to go onto blogs and push the views of Israel. That these same people have been rehearsed as to what to post. Do you really expect me to believe they are sat there with a crib sheet and if the question is too difficult they can e-mail for an answer. No government would go to all that trouble and expense - if all they were doing was legally defending their state.
Ilbeback, if you expect me to believe any of the above you must think I’ve gone Barkusmadous.
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266. At 11:43pm on 02 Mar 2009, Electric-Badger wrote:
'Call me naive but do you really expect me to believe a Government would have people monitoring the internet waiting to go onto blogs and push the views of Israel.'
These were not my words. I was quoting from the Guardian. Check the links I gave and while you're at it, check these ones from Jewish sources also.
I found these articles appearing in Israeli newspapers openly boasting about it in detail.
'Coordination is putting Israel ahead in the media war'
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1230456523464
'Unlike in previous military crises, "we have close coordination and unified messages between agencies," says Yarden Vatikai, the director of the National Information Directorate (NID), which is seeing its first trial by fire.'
Established in the wake of the Winograd Report's criticism of insufficient coordination in the media effort during the 2006 Second Lebanon War, the NID's purpose is to synchronize the content and tone of Israel's message across the many organizations that carry it to the world, whether official or unofficial.
'The relative success in conveying Israel's message "won't last for long," predicts Shir-On, if only because "the pictures are not good. We're finding the problem that whenever a television station puts on an Israeli spokesperson, they put alongside him in split-screen pictures of carnage in Gaza."'
This would explain why Israel banned foreign journalists.
http://www.thejc.com/articles/israel-claims-success-pr-war
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I am not claiming that there are hundreds of bloggers working for the National Information Directorate (NID) – well not yet anyway. I am claiming that the usual suspects have been fed a standard line crafted 6 months ago and distributed through existing usual pro-Zionist media.
I am claiming that the standard defences of Israel's assault on Gaza were devised months ago and then fed to the organisations which could be relied on to pass them on to the wider Zionist community. The intention being that if they speak with one voice, the message will get across. You don't need to be naïve to believe this. You only to believe what the Zionists themselves claim about the origin and purpose of the NID, and its effectiveness.
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jerkdreck, aren't you leaving out the other 270 million Americans who support Israel among the "Cretins?" We cretins are the nation that came from nowhere and in less than 200 years blew right past 2000+ year old Europe. If we're cretins, what does that make Europeans, worms? I'll buy that.
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267 ilbeback
I don't think that Electric-Badger was criticising you, I got the impression that the comment was sarcasm aimed at the Israeli government.
As you have indicated the Israeli propaganda machine is massive and pernicious. AIPAC has 200 permanent staff and an annual budget of $47million just to lobby and pump out pro-Israeli propaganda. Some of their employees have even been indicted for spying against America and passing the information onto Israel.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/12/AR2006071201627.html
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269 MarcusBarbarius
"jerkdreck, aren't you leaving out the other 270 million Americans who support Israel among the "Cretins?" We cretins are the nation that came from nowhere and in less than 200 years blew right past 2000+ year old Europe. If we're cretins, what does that make Europeans, worms? I'll buy that."
'Out of the mouths of babes' or in this case an idiot. 270 million more cretins? damn, it's worse than I thought!
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We must be. We made the mistake of saving Europe from itself at least three times. Maybe now we've learned our lesson. Next time they go at each other, we should just sit back and watch the show.
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270. At 01:01am on 03 Mar 2009, Jackturk wrote:
'I don't think that Electric-Badger was criticising you, I got the impression that the comment was sarcasm aimed at the Israeli government.'
Apologies for any misunderstanding Electric-Badger . Thanks Jackturk.
BTW, I'm beginning to suspect that Marcusbarbarius is not as quite idiotic as he gives every appearance of being. He seems to have managed to steer the conversation from exposing Israel's lies and injustices to an open ended Europe vs America slanging match.
'The way of the monkey is to act the fool. While you laugh at his antics, he bites you from behind.'
- Maybe he really is a fully paid NID stooge after all. They certainly come cheaper than IDF operatives and high tech weapons.
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273 ilbeback
You're right about Marcus, it's one of his favourite tactics when he has no sensible answer, he tries to steer the debate on to his Euro-bashing hobby horse, obviously brought about by his jealousy of our cultural heritage!
However, he's long past biting, even his false teeth have seen better days.
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"Maybe he really is a fully paid NID stooge after all"
For those unaware of the activities of NID:- http://lataan.blogspot.com/2009/01/dr-goebbels-of-israeli-propaganda.html
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ilbeback 273 Jackturk 275
ilbeback - It's my way of trying to make a serious point with a bit of subtle humour thrown in. I was forgetting that MarcusAurellius aka Barkusmadous
doesn't do subtle.
Jackturk - There's no maybe about it.
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Shhh, the curtain is rising. The show is about to begin.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7918757.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7920734.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7914460.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7887659.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7881471.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7874565.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7861548.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7802981.stm
These stories are not for the faint of heart as Europe looks into the abyss. If you have a tendency to tears, fainting, heart attacks, or strokes when there is bad news, don't read any of the above. They could send you to the hospital...or a mental asylum.
BTW, don't get your hopes up you anti-semitic Europeans. America's support for Israel is "unshakable"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7920210.stm
Thank you Madam Secretary. It's the first smart thing I ever remember hearing you say.
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277. At 4:20pm on 03 Mar 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
'Shhh, the curtain is rising. The show is about to begin.'
Sorry. The show is over. It would be easy to blame Zionists (at least in part) for the current financial meltdown although I will resist the temptation. But to take the Rothschild's as an example, Zionists were more than happy to leech of European countries such as the UK when it was the pre-eminent world power, even rising to the highest office. Before that, Jews held important positions in the Muslim empire which dominated the world for several centuries, prior to the European renaissance. Like an unfaithful mistress, they are the first to jump ship when a better offer comes along. In typical style, they have followed the money and power to America, while retaining a foothold in nasty old Europe.
The sad fact is that the vast majority of ordinary Americans are ignorant victims of a great deal that is done in their name. The truth about Palestine has been systematically hidden from them by a pro-Zionist media. I do not blame all Americans for the mess that has been made of the middle east, any more than I blame all Jews. Zionists were instrumental in leading America into Iraq and would have had them in Iran by now if things had gone to plan. Zionists are happy if America spends its wealth, and ultimately it's superpower status fighting their battles. When this happens, the Zionists will jump ship to whomever offers the best chance of furthering their considerable ambitions and they won't look back. By the time America learns that it has been used and abused, it will be too late.
So, your cover is blown Marcusbarbarus. Pack your case and get your greasy freakshow out of town, before we kick you out. Take your foul wares to another unsuspecting blog, only next time, choose a name which better suits your deceitful character.
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The pro-Zionist lobby are at it in Wikipedia as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_for_Accuracy_in_Middle_East_Reporting_in_America#Wikipedia_campaign
Does anything escape the touch of their slimy tentacles?
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Here’s some good news: Interpal, (Palestinian Relief Fund) the UK registered charity that provides humanitarian aid to Gaza, has for the THIRD time been cleared by the UK Charity Commission of malicious allegations made by the Israeli government, the US Government and the BBC Panorama programme.
The Charity Commission’s findings after investigating the allegations:
Interpal is cleared of any bias in its work and aid delivery.
Interpal is cleared of the accusation of carrying out non-charitable work.
Interpal’s trustees are cleared of any links to terrorist organisations or activities.
Interpal’s charitable partners are free from any allegations made against them by the BBC Panorama programme and the Israeli Government.
The Charity Commission rejects all allegations made and evidence brought against Interpal by the BBC Panorama programme and The Israeli Government.
The US administration failed for the second time to provide the Charity Commission with any credible evidence against Interpal.
Interpal is free to continue its charitable work on behalf of needy Palestinians.
The Board of Deputies of British Jews tried to make similar allegations in 2003. Interpal sued and won substantial damages. The Jewish organisation was also forced to make a public apology:
"We referred to terrorist organisations such as Hamas and Interpal. We would like to make it clear that we should not have described Interpal in this way and we regret the upset and distress our item caused."
Now Interpal has been cleared again by the Charity Commission, it can take its claims for damages to the courts. Seems to be quite a profitable fundraising method!
Not only did the BBC scupper the DEC Appeal for Gaza - it has also tried to scare-off other voluntary donations - but failed. Interpal are now well versed in submitting their losses and damages.
Who are those people who keep claiming BBC reporting is biased towards the Palestinians? The BBC will have to re-assess its unfair attacks on anything to do with Palestine.
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"Occupation 101" another award winning video which will never be shown on the BBC.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589
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280. At 10:10pm on 03 Mar 2009, Richard_SM wrote:
'Here?s some good news: Interpal, (Palestinian Relief Fund) the UK registered charity that provides humanitarian aid to Gaza, has for the THIRD time been cleared by the UK Charity Commission of malicious allegations made by the Israeli government, the US Government and the BBC Panorama programme.'
The Zionists really plumb new depths of pettiness and vindictiveness. Thanks for the good news Richard. You might want to post charity related stuff on Mark Thompson's blog as well to shame the BBC further.
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I'd like to see Israel go for a 'one state solution.' It would tear itself apart. Israel would have to confront its obsolete ethno-nationalism and come to terms with the prospect of a non Jewish state. Jewish sovereignty has been the ideal of the Zionists. The Israeli leadership would have to betray the hundred year promise of a Jewish homeland and resign itself to a secular society. Israelis would have to share a single state as equals with Christians and Arabs, not to mention agnostics and atheists, and dismantle the Jewish leaning legislation that currently exists. I'm sure the orthodox Jews and the Zionists will love the all the ramifications that go with the single state option.
In a democratic and secular state the 'right of return' would apply to all - and there are a vast number of Arab refugees waiting to return to their homeland. The Israelis should also note the rate at which the Palestinians re-produce - their birth rate per thousand is much greater than the liberal US/Euro/Russian Jewish migrants can manage.
As I have said before - the Israeli leaders do not want any peaceful solution. It's not in their interests. They'd prefer to drive the Palestinians off their land, the policy on which the Zionist philosophy is based. But they are going to have to face up to either a one state or a two state solution. Neither looks very attractive from an Israeli perspective - but those are the only choices their policies have left them with.
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Marcy: 'Shhh, the curtain is rising. The show is about to begin'
It's just too easy...
CNN
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hopeless GM
hopeful Nissan
AIG
...but somewhat pointless, there's bad news wherever you care to look
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More pressure on Israel. The Viva Palestina 110 vehicle aid convoy from Britain is just about to cross the border into Egypt. I understand an additional 100 vehicles have joined the convoy when it passed through Algeria and Libya. Plus a host of celebrities and journalists are flying in to witness the convoy's attempts to enter Gaza in the next few days.
I hope BBC will be covering the event Robin!
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281. At 10:13pm on 03 Mar 2009, Jackturk wrote:
''Occupation 10' another award winning video which will never be shown on the BBC.'
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589
Powerful and comprehensive Jackturk. I know a lot of this, but it still made me sick to the stomach to see it all in one place. The gulf between the truth on one side and the Zionist propaganda on the other is unbearable.
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Anyone with even a vestige of an open mind who has watched "Occupation 101" and all of the other information on Robin's blog alone, cannot fail to recognise that there is a Palestinian holocaust taking place in the Middle East because of the evil racism that is Zionism.
However, we would never know it from the main stream media alone because it has been air-brushed from the public gaze and the BBC is one of the worst culprits, as they were in not questioning forcefully enough Blair's government and it's lies that lead us into the illegal invasion of Iraq.
This is where the information is now - the internet and through the internet we must build up a head of pressure that the media and particularly the BBC cannot ignore. We must constantly communicate the message directly to reporters and broadcasters, that we will not accept mediocre reporting of the situation in the Middle East and around the world.
When Israeli violence such as we have just witnessed in Gaza occurs, there is no room for 'balance' the reports must be accurate and frank. Reporters must speak out if there is any hint that they have been influenced to either tone down their reports or slant them one way or another. Neither must reporters practice self-censorship in the fear that they may offend either their bosses or the ethos of the organisation. If they speak out truly and honestly, the vast majority of the public will support them.
What the hell if the DEC appeal upsets the thugs who run Israel and who try to manipulate the media every chance they get with their campaigns of revisionist history and lies, disseminated with the help of the billions of dollars they get from the USA. The BBC, because we fund it, is in a unique position to be able to stand up to them and expose their cruelty, mendacity and hypocrisy.
Some of us may feel grateful that we have this chance to put our views forward but this is our BBC, we pay for it, no one is doing us a favour, we have every right to be here and we must use it to praise or criticise, as we have done in our tens of thousands, those in charge who at the moment are destroying the credibility and integrity of he BBC.
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"Anyone with even a vestige of an open mind who has watched "Occupation 101" and all of the other information on Robin's blog alone, cannot fail to recognise that there is a Palestinian holocaust taking place in the Middle East"
Yes but it is of their own making which is why rational people don't give it much thought. There are plenty of other people in the world who are in trouble through no fault of their own. That is where we should expend our charitable efforts. The Palestinians could help themselves if they really wanted to. Instead, they have chosen to go down to the bottom of the sea with Hamas. Yes, they have literally thrown themselves into the sea. Exactly what their parents and grandparents said they'd do to the Israelis when they tried time and again and again and again to annihilate Isreal. This is what I call "JUSTICE."
The notion of a Palestinian state is pure lunacy. It will not happen. Not anytime soon.
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Hey Jackdreck, abkan is nakba backwards. It was supposed to happen the other way around....in your demented mind....and the minds of a lot of demented Jew hating Arabs and Europeans. SURPRISE!
O beautiful for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain!....
http://www.usa-flag-site.org/song-lyrics/america.shtml
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Are you still here? Remember Marcus, the best laid plans of mice and Zionist mischief makers go oft astray. Take your foul whisperings elsewhere. Here's a tune for the road:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuTiTfbfy7Q&feature=related
You know where I'm coming from?
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#284 Paul
Another own goal by Marcus
The Dow is down to 1997 levels, but how far down is it in real terms (taking into account inflation)? My guess is that its down to 1970s levels! EuroZone is probably not that far behind either (which I'm sure will cheer Marcus)!
Time for Buddhist Economics IMO.
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cecilia, if it contines to follow the track of the crash that started in September 1929, it will be down to about 1400 by the end of the year. If this happens, China and Europe will be completely bankrupt with social upheavals and insurrection on its hands and America will be destitute. I don't think this will happen. As the US government pumps massive amounts of cash for which increased wealth to back it up does not exist and taxes to pay for it cannot be collected, it will massively deflate its currency, inflate wages and prices, and write down prior debt. This will still leave Europe and China bankrupt but America will do just fine...except for the banks and other financial institutions that will be paid back with ultra cheap dollars compared to what they loaned out. This is the traditional pattern for dealing with very large debt in America since the great depression. Look for signs of recovery in the US late this year or early 2010. As for Europe's recovery...that may never happen.
Right now, China is desperate to stimulate its own economy while Europe doesn't even know where to begin to deal with its headaches. By this time next year, we may be writing the EU's epitaph. Couldn't happen to a more deserving bunch.
BTW, don't you love the way Gordon Brown came sniveling to America and Obama patted him on the back like his new found poodle? Sarkrazy and Angel Eyes will be next. Half an hour with the President of the United States, that's all Brown got. I'll bet Obama spent more time playing with his new canine dog than that. But then it was much cuter and far less demanding.
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#293 Marcus
I think there would be more social upheaval in the States, than Europe - thanks to it's socialist welfare state.
The US may help solve it's debt problem by devaluing the dollar, but it's exports would still be wiped out if no-one in Europe and Asia (or anyone) have money to buy US made goods. US inflation may hit the roof and your economy will face stagflation (as well as the Govt nationalising more sectors of the economy). The Euro would become the new global currency as OPEC will realise that they'll get more profit by dumping the dollar! Anyway, doesn't China have more US dollars than the Fed?
The Chinese Politburo are your masters now!
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cecilia, socialist europe is the point. It is unsustainable. When those social welfare benefits Europeans have come to expect, demand, and revolt in the streets when there is talk of withdrawing them, they will go ballistic when they all suddenly collapse. The US is a net importer. Exports may fall but imports will fall faster and more sharply. That is a net benefit to the balance of trade for the US. When the US dollar initially tumbles, its products will be much cheaper and more competitive in foreign markets and at home where the price of foreign goods will go up. But when the other nations either devalue their currencies to keep up or go broke being unable to export to the US having been priced out of the market, all hell will break loose. You can see it starting in China already. Europe is next on the hit parade.
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292. At 11:48am on 04 Mar 2009, dceilar wrote:
'Another own goal by Marcus'
The sad truth is that regardless of his errors, Marcus is clearly in his comfort zone when he is stirring up enmity between Europe and America, because when he is doing that, he is NOT having to defend Israeli actions in Palestine– a win win situation. He particularly enjoys promoting the notion of all Europeans hating all Americans. The truth is that it is possible to hate certain American administrations and their policies, while sympathizing with the majority of ordinary Americans who are fed Zionist propaganda, and who end up fighting Israel's battles for them, or funding them.
This is an ancient Zionist trick. He deserves credit for only one thing on this blog, and that is his partial success in stifling the opinions which are not favourable to Israel, by 'acting' the fool. Don't underestimate his slyness.
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youllbebroke
Better get used to it. It's here to stay. America says so.
http://design.flowingpens.com/blog/images/israel_flag.jpg
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An extract from Mark Steel's article: So what have the Palestinians got to complain about?:
'Condoleezza Rice, having observed that more than 300 Gazans were dead, said: 'We are deeply concerned about the escalating violence. We strongly condemn the attacks on Israel and hold Hamas responsible.'
Someone should ask her to comment on teenage knife-crime, to see if she'd say: 'I strongly condemn the people who've been stabbed, and until they abandon their practice of wandering around clutching their sides and bleeding, there is no hope for peace.''
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mark-steel/mark-steel-so-what-have-the-palestinians-got-to-complain-about-1218135.html
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'The worrying part about whether the ceasefire in Gaza can hold together will be whether the international community can stop the flow of arms to the terrorists. Because Israel's getting their planes and tanks and missiles from somewhere and until this supply is cut off there's every chance it could start back up again.'
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mark-steel/mark-steel-now-weve-all-seen-through-the-israeli-governments-excuses-1452234.html
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youllgobroke
God bless America,
Land that I love,
Stand beside her and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above;
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans white with foam,
God bless America,
My home, sweet home.
God bless America,
My home, sweet home.
http://www.usa-flag-site.org/song-lyrics/god-bless-america.shtml
sing along, it will make you feel better.
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This week the US government is debating whether to set up a Commission of Inquiry to look into Bush's 'War on Terror' tactics. This could have major ramifications all the way up the chain of command.
Key US Senators, leading this call for justice, need a massive global endorsement to ensure that the Commission is set up and has real teeth. But there are powerful interests that want to cover up the truth about torture, secret detention and other unlawful abuse.
Sign this important petition below and we will present it to the Senate hearing before decisions are made this week:
http://www.avaaz.org/en/end_the_war_on_terror/98.php?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I rejoice in the sheer poetry of this justice. Here are people who had the chance to share this small spit of land with those who co-inhabited it for thousands of years but they wanted it all for themselves. They fought endlessly to get it by killing their opponents. But each time they lost, they never considered real compromise, they always returned to fight again. And each time they lost more and more. More land, more people, more hope, more of everything. Exactly what they would have inflicted on their innocent neighbors they have gotten themselves.
Look at what they are reduced to. Their land is a shambles. They live in dire poverty clinging to life by a thread. Many of their Arab "brothers" have abandoned them. They are even at each others throats. And still they don't give up. But their adversary has. Many Israelis no longer want or expect a peaceful settlement, at least not the two state solution they had anticipated. The Israelis were clever not to crush Hamas which they could have done. This leaves them divided and weak. It's like a chess grandmaster playing against a child. And now despite the economic crisis, they have the most powerful economic and military entity in history united unshakably with their enemies. Look at who their wretched friends are that are left. Iran, Syria, and the antisemites of old Europe like you guys jerkdreck, cecilia, dontcomeback. That alone makes it hopeless for them, the likes of you guys as their apologists.
This is like a Greek Tragedy, a Shakespearian play, something out of the bible. It has such irony and justice to it. And to think I have fools like you to banter on the internet about it with.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"No wonder you've chased all the other Zionists away, you're giving them a bad name!"
Good, maybe they'll go to Israel, join the army and fight. If that's what it takes, I'll keep posting every time another one of them shows up here. :-)
Why don't you go fight alongside the Palestinians. They'll teach you how to make home made rockets. I've heard of guys like that. There was lefty, three fingers, stumpy.....
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
303 MarcusBarbarius
What pathetic drivel, you are too deluded to realise that your posts are becoming more desperate and more ignorable.
No wonder you've chased all the other Zionists away, you're giving Zionism a bad name!
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I think it's clear that Marcus agrees with all of our harsh criticisms of Zionism. He has dropped any attempt to defend against them, and indeed, openly admits to delighting in them. His claim that everybody hates the Jews is probably based on own his personal experience of being unpopular with everyone, rather than any broader research. We are all trying to understand what he is doing here, so here's my try:
Maybe, because Marcus was an unwanted child, mummy didn't give little Marcus any kisses and cuddlses. Maybe daddy used to spank naughty Marcus too much for some reason. Sometimes they would tell Marcus stories about scary Palestinian ghosts and he would cry. Little Marcus didn't understand they were make believe. But one day mummy and daddy were nice to him, and showed him how to scare the ghosts away with guns and fire. Soon afterwards, they got a big house extension and Marcus remembered this one happy moment. Poor little Marcus.
Marcus went to school and nobody talk to him, because he was so obnoxious. Because he is sad, he beat up other children, and this makes him happy because all the other children look at him now. Then he go to the Synagogue and the Rabbi gives him all these rules to follow, but by now Marcus says; 'who am I to follow these rules, Marcus make his own rules!' Rabbi warn Marcus not to be rebellious or he get punished, but Marcus not listen, and he become even more obnoxious. All the other children stare at Marcus and he remembers how lovely that attention was for ever and ever.
Then he goes to college, but still nobody likes Marcus except one group. Marcus remembers the ghost stories and joins them. They teach him lots of arguments and how to be strong but all the contradictions in Marcus head make him start to hear voices telling him to do things. He becomes more strange so nobody want to marry Marcus, so he get very angry and decide to punish the world. Marcus is 'not wrong', he screams, 'the world is wrong'.
They take poor Marcus away to a special place, but he befriends one of the psychologists, who lets him use the internet to express himself. Suddenly everybody listen to little Marcus on blogs and he become a big man again. He remembers the Synagogue and becomes happy again. The psychologist thinks maybe to release Marcus, not realising that Big Marcus now drunk with power........ tbc
Possible ending: After many years, Marcus's talents are finally recognized and he gets elected as Israeli Prime mister.
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309 ilbeback
What a lovely story.
Because of the time difference in the US Marcus will be fast asleep now dreaming of guns, bombs and massacres and all those things that make him happy.
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Ok, for the third time I am going to try and get this past the mod's. Readers, please fill in the blanks yourselves with nice words that describe Marcus. No insults or you'll get me bumped off again!
289 MarcusBarbarius
"Yes but it is of their own making which is why rational people don't give it much thought."
The old defence, blame the victims. I suppose the Arabs massacred themselves at Deir Yassin - the Israeli terrorist attack upon which Israel is founded. You and other Zionists such as CAMARA are determined to delete Palestinian history but unfortunately too much has been documented for you to be successful.
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]
And as for being rational, what a joke, the first word of your answer 'YES' is an admission that the Palestinians are suffering a holocaust, yet you support it. On other subjects, you take great delight in your knowledge of history and recite 'facts' at any opportunity but when it comes to Palestinian or Zionist history you are a coward and refuse to face it, rational? more like bigoted.
"The notion of a Palestinian state is pure lunacy. It will not happen. Not anytime soon."
You are probably correct because under no circumstances will the Zionists allow it whilst the USA supports them.
290
"Hey Jackdreck, abkan is nakba backwards." Very clever Marcus.
Hey Marcus, U ARE US L*** S*** is an anagram of MarcusAurelius!
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WOW did you get it wrong dontcomeback. You outdid yourself in missing the mark this time. Yes I was an enfant terrible. Yes I was at times so bad my parents thought about sending me to boarding school. But this only made me more popular at school. I had a million friends and a very happy childhood. How did I get away with it? By being bright, extroverted, and witty. When I wasn't clowning around in school, I was outside playing baseball, football, riding my bike with friends, and doing a million other things. I was very busy and not because of some notion of parental structure the way kids' time is arranged today. I invented my own fun and found lots of joiners. And I still am that way. I'm always the life of the party.
I just love putting you Euros in your place by holding up a mirror to you. I'm just showing you how you look to many of us here on our side of the pond. Ugly isn't it? We don't like it either. But most of us don't say anything because we are too polite. But not me. Enfant terribles are not polite by nature...and certainly when they don't have to be.
JT, I don't care what the history is in the Middle East. Then was then, now is now. And your side is losing badly. Losing their land, losing their homes, losing their lives. If they don't change course radically by changing their thinking, they will lose whatever thin tenuous shred of hope is left for them that they haven't lost already. They don't seem to get it either and I for one don't care.
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Jackturk 311
Is the answer *iar *cum
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289 MarcusBarbarius
"Yes but it is of their own making which is why rational people don't give it much thought."
The old defence, blame the victims. I suppose the Arabs massacred themselves at Deir Yassin - the Israeli terrorist attack upon which Israel is founded. You and other Zionists such as CAMARA are determined to delete Palestinian history but unfortunately too much has been documented for you to be successful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prLPvqttW9c
And as for being rational, what a joke, the first word of your answer 'YES' is an admission that the Palestinians are suffering a holocaust, yet you support it. On other subjects, you take great delight in your knowledge of history and recite 'facts' at any opportunity but when it comes to Palestinian or Zionist history you are a coward and refuse to face it, rational? more like bigoted.
"The notion of a Palestinian state is pure lunacy. It will not happen. Not anytime soon."
You are probably correct because under no circumstances will the Zionists allow it whilst the USA supports them.
290
"Hey Jackdreck, abkan is nakba backwards." Vey clever Marcus.
Hey Marcus, U ARE US **** **** is an anagram of MarcusAurelius!
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Marcus your posts are despicable, inaccurate and counter productive. If I was your NID line manager you would be shut down pronto. Anyone who is open minded or neutral and reads your contributions will instantly decided to take the opposite stance to your hate filled drivel. You are the best recruiting manager for the Palestinian cause EVER.
OMG – have I just blown your cover Marcus. Are you really an under cover blogger for Palestine. Shhh we’ll keep it our little secret.
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"Marcus your posts are despicable"
I suppose that depends on your point of view. I see those from the other side the same way. Only one difference.....I'm right, they're wrong. Enfant terribles are at their worst and cruelest when they are the kind who are always right. Dontcha just hate it? I see you do :-)
These aren't settlements anymore, they are Israeli towns and cities on what is in fact Israeli land. Neither the towns nor the Israelis living in them are going anywhere.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7919832.stm
I think Natanyahu will be Israel's next Prime Minister. I think if he ever believed in a two state solution, he no longer does.
It's like that last little thread they're hanging on to is about to give way.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7920210.stm
Do you think God Bless America would be America's national anthem if it hadn't been written by a Jew, Irving Berlin? Now there's an irony, a Jew named Berlin.
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Message to all bloggers.
315. At 7:20pm on 05 Mar 2009, Electric-Badger wrote:
'If I was your NID line manager you would be shut down pronto....You are the best recruiting manager for the Palestinian cause EVER.'
Electric-Badger just gave me a great idea. Now that all the reasonable Zionists have accepted that that this is a lost cause for them, we are left with the incredibly thick skinned (or just plain thick) to debate with, which is not so good. We should take this show on the road to other blogs on the Israel / Palestine conflict. Hopefully Marcus will get lonely again and follow, since he is the key to our success. If we could expose the general public to even a few of his posts, then this would certainly do more to convince the 'fence sitters', than hundreds of well researched facts about Zionist atrocities. In return, Marcus gets all the attention he ever desired.
We bill him as the Zionist who tells it as it is. We need to promote his views in blogs at every opportunity. Once they reach the mainstream, they will become a recruiting Sergeant for the pro-Palestinian cause, second to none. America will be forced by popular opinion to cut loose it's enfant terrible (i.e. Israel). The Zionists will then be forced to negotiate from a realistic standpoint, greatly increasing the likelihood of a just settlement. Ironically he may even end up with the Nobel peace prize to boot.
315. At 7:20pm on 05 Mar 2009, Electric-Badger wrote:
'OMG ? have I just blown your cover Marcus. Are you really an under cover blogger for Palestine. Shhh we?ll keep it our little secret.'
Yes. Shhh, you'll spoil everything.
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dontcomeback, does that mean you are surrendering by leaving?
Watching it over the years and decades you get to feel you are watching something like a compulsive gambler who never quits but after each losing round, doubles down his bets hoping the next round will allow him to recoup his losses. And with each new round he gets broker and broker. The Palestinians seem to be about as broken as they can get. Their only ammo left, pathetic rocket attacks that now and then blow up someone's kitchen or a schoolroom. The Palestinians were lucky there were no kids in that classroom when the rocket hit it last week. If they'd killed a whole classroom full of Israeli kids, there is no telling what the cosequences would be. There is no limit to how much destruction and havoc the Israelis could wreck on the Palestinians and no one to stop them in a state of rage and fury. But the Palestinians just keep spinning the barrel of the gun and one day they'll pull the trigger when the bullet is in the chamber.
Will their side escalate and raise the ante? Would Syria or Iran really risk war with a nation that may have 300 to 400 hydrogen bombs for the sake of the Palestinians? That could be national suicide for them. Just how reckless are they? We may yet find out.
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318. At 10:26pm on 05 Mar 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
'dontcomeback, does that mean you are surrendering by leaving?'
No Marcus. I want to become your promotions manager.
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dontcomeback, I can manage myself just fine thank you...but can you manage yourself? It doesn't seem that way. Look at how it takes at least three or four of you to debate me and you are losing so badly you want to switch venues. And here I am hardly even trying. I'll even type with one hand tied behind my back
:-) It's so easy...a battle of wits against a gaggle of unarmed Brits. Ever heard of place called Gallipoli?
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Here's real racism;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7925509.stm
Over 200,000 dead already and 2 million more about to die because they are black. And all the UN can do is plead while the rest of the world stands around? Who gives a tinker's damn about Israeli settlements?
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Marcus - you are the new poster babe for the PLO. DONT YOU JUST LOVE IT.
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320. At 10:50pm on 05 Mar 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
'dontcomeback, I can manage myself just fine thank you...but can you manage yourself? It doesn't seem that way. Look at how it takes at least three or four of you to debate me and you are losing so badly you want to switch venues.'
To put it another way, although you have lost every argument, by your own admission, you are successfully tying up 4 of us. I have already praised your effectiveness in this regard, if nothing else. I suggested taking you on tour so that more people can be exposed to your arguments, and decide for themselves.
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320. At 10:50pm on 05 Mar 2009, MarcusAureliusII wrote:
'Ever heard of place called Gallipoli?'
Yes. It was planned by one of yours. Winston I think his name was. And financed by the Roths..... what's their name again? It's not like Zionists to get involved in a disastrous campaign, unless there's something else going on, and someone else to take the fall. This time it's Zionists manouvering the UK and the Ottoman Turks fight it out. You know, the ones who controlled Palestine at the time.
'The Jewish Legion was the name for five battalions of Jewish volunteers established as the British Army's 38th through 42nd (Service) Battalions of the Royal Fusiliers. The initial unit, known as the Zion Mule Corps, was formed in 1914-1915 during World War I, when Britain was at war against the Ottoman Turks, as Zionists around the world saw an opportunity to promote the idea of a Jewish National Homeland.'
'The Zion Mule Corps served on the Gallipoli front, as for political reasons the British opposed the participation of Jewish volunteers on the Palestinian front, but ultimately, in August 1917, the formation of a Jewish regiment was officially announced. The soldiers of the 38th and 39th Battalions of the Royal Fusiliers, made up almost entirely of Jews'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Legion
Zionists leading a major power into a disastrous war in order to further their private agenda. Sound familiar....?
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backatcha
I'm not going to check your facts but if they are true, I'd have to say it is most pleasing to know that the UK had been had. In fact accounts I've read say they could hardly wait to jump into the war. "The boys will be home by Christmas." The Brits always seem like such suckers to me. George Soros took them for one billion dollars in one night. France, Hungary, and a lot of others are taking them at the EU. Even Scotland is taking the English who subsidize them for staying in the UK. I wonder if there's anything left to take. Judging from their accounts, I think we've gotten it all. It was all stolen from other people anyway. You know how it is. Israel stole land from the Palestinians, Russia stole from Georgia, Ukraine, the Balkins, France stole from Africa and China, Britain stole land, property, labor, Chinese statues, and everything else on places the sun never set on, Spain stole gold from the new word. It's all the same thing. You're just angry because you have nothing left to be stolen. Judging from Grodon Brown's humiliating visit to America, not even your pride.
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I guess all the cyber-Nazis in Britain are asleep. Sweet dreams you guys, tomorrow is another day to face grim reality :-)
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317 ilebeback
Great idea. Marcus is typical of the pig headed thugs that run Israel at the moment and all Marcus' idiotic statements are on line for everyone to see, they only need to click on his name. However, by the same action we can copy and paste sections from that valuable resource of lunacy, and use the ramblings as an example of Zionist bigotry and racism for all to see.
Marcus has been roundly defeated over the Israeli massacres and treatment of Arabs argument, hence his desire to shift the subject to his pet topic of Europe, which, rather like all those republican politicians in the US who protest about homosexuality but have secretly hired rent boys, allows him to criticise whilst secretly fantasising about becoming a European.
From now on, unless Marcus sticks to the topic in hand, i.e. Israel and its behaviour, I for one will avoid being dragged into his Euro fantasies and get him a second class ticket to Coventry (sorry Coventry) where he can happily find a nice secluded spot out of harms way and gibber away to himself all day long - assuming that is, the staff allow him to travel.
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If it hadn't been for Europe's relentless efforts over a millenium to kill the Jews in Europe culminating in Germany's efforts to kill all of them on an "industrial scale" while most of the rest of Europe just sat back and watched, there might not be an Israel. But what happened happened and history played itself out.
Like Arabs, Europeans are their own worst enemies. After the second continent wide European bloodbath, America stepped in and tried to prevent a third while also trying to civilize Europe. But it hasn't worked. Despite over 60 years of effort and trillions poured into it, Europe remains essentially a savage place. I have no doubt that before you know it, they'll be at each others throats again. Just a few months into a financial depression that could last a decade and the first signs are already there. If I were a European, I'd be far more worried about the coming Eurabia than about what goes on in the Middle East. The Archbishop of Canteburry Dr. Rowan Williams has already conceded that at least some aspects of Sharia law will be adopted in the UK. It's just a matter of time before Europe is Talabanized. And why shouldn't it be? It has refused to contribute in any meaningful way to resisting in the way the US has. Now it is I who will sit back and watch. Safe in North America.
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Where are my favorite foils, my dupes? That's the trouble with bullies. Someone stronger comes around and beats them up a little and they go scurrying into the cracks like frightened cockroaches.
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Human rights investigators say Israeli forces engaged in "wanton destruction" of Palestinian homes during the recent conflict in Gaza.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7926413.stm
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Decent Israeli's are making their voices heard
"On Saturday, 3 January 2009, approximately 10,000 Israelis protested in Rabin Square, Tel Aviv, against the ongoing Israeli air and ground assault on Palestinians in the Gaza Strip."
http://www.alternativenews.org/content/view/1510/477/
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"Human rights investigators say Israeli forces engaged in "wanton destruction" of Palestinian homes during the recent conflict in Gaza."
Blah, blah, blah, blah, just more of the same. And what do you call Palestinian terrorists firing rockets at Israeli homes? Jack, your friends couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Their aim isn't bad. The haven't got any aim. They stink at it but they won't give up. Good, more excuses for Israeli retaliation. The dopes just fire at random. You're sore because the Isrealis hit what they aim at....usually. Just duck if they ever decide to aim at.......
"Decent Israeli's are making their voices heard"
Every country has its traitors. I wonder how many would march in a rally in London in support of the Taleban. Maybe a million...and half of them Brits :-)
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This will probably get deleted but....
Does anyone know why Italians wear pointy shoes?
Hahahahahahaha
The devil made me do it.
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Jackturk - Amnesty International together with Breaking the Silence (ex-Jewish military personnel) are very close to bringing War Crimes charges against Israel. We can only hope they succeed.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7926413.stm
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EB
In the words of Joseph Stalin (when referring to the Vatican), how many divisions do they have? Just one Nuke would take out the Hague. Maybe all of Holland. Yikes, no more dykes.
Tough luck for all those Palis. If your house can be used for any purpose that is a risk to Israeli security such as smuggler's tunnels to Egypt, cover for snipers, a place to manufacture or store rockets, or a home where a terrorist mastermind like a Hamas operative lives or meets, it can and probably will be blown up. How much would it cost for Lloyds of London to insure one :-)
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303. MarcusAureliusII,
That's a fine post, like so many others of yours. I agree totally except for this:
"Exactly what they would have inflicted on their innocent neighbors they have gotten themselves."
The Palestinians would have inflicted infinitely more on the Israelis if they had had the upper hand. Ain't a single shadow of a doubt about that.
You've got it right about Europe and its fine representatives on this blog. Unless it starts to resists Eurabia, Europe is finished. It's probably already too late: UK cops backpedal away from a Muslim mob and there are no-go areas for non-Muslims throughout Europe. BBC top execs admit that they would trash the Bible but never the Koran. They show Jerry Springer's 'The Opera' but would never dream of screening Geert Wilders' 'Fitna' or showing the Mohammed cartoons. Malmo is hosting Israeli tennis players at a tournament closed to the public because the "authorities" are afraid of anti-Israel Muslim mobs.
257. Jackturk,
I guess an honest answer from you was a too much to hope for. You go on about Israel breaking the cease-fire, but when I indicate at no. 255 that Hamas in fact broke it, you claim that is "irrelevant." How convenient.
And in no. 251, you seem to think that a balanced assessment of the conflict is to present Israel's counter-terror attacks while ignoring the Palestinian terror that provokes the attacks, e.g. completely omitting the Palestinian actions that led to the November 5th attack. Again, how convenient.
279. At 9:09pm on 03 Mar 2009, ilbeback wrote:
I see you are quite proud of your "slimy tentacles" quote regarding Zionists, repeating it here after spewing it out on 'The Editors' blog.
Anyone who is genuinely interested in the work done by CAMERA will find that they are a fine organisation, doing excellent work in fighting the anti-Israel slurs and lies.
280. Richard_SM wrote:
"Who are those people who keep claiming BBC reporting is biased towards the Palestinians?"
Is that a serious question requiring an answer? "Those people" are all over the Internet and elsewhere and their conclusions are based on painstaking research and close observation of BBC anti-Israel/pro-Palestinian bias for years, in many cases.
283. At 11:00pm on 03 Mar 2009, Richard_SM wrote:
"I'd like to see Israel go for a 'one state solution.' It would tear itself apart."
Thanks for your good wishes.
327. Jackturk wrote:
"...typical of the pig headed thugs that run Israel at the moment..."
A typical comment from you.
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Hey marcus - see you had to do a 911 to TT
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327. At 11:54am on 06 Mar 2009, Jackturk wrote:
'.... all Marcus' idiotic statements are on line for everyone to see, they only need to click on his name. However, by the same action we can copy and paste sections from that valuable resource of lunacy, and use the ramblings as an example of Zionist bigotry and racism for all to see.'
His posts are a treasury of Zionist bigotry. I must remember to save these pages before some savvy Zionist starts to cover his t