A Gaza victim speaks of peace
When hundreds of people die in war, it is too easy to forget that each death is a separate, searing tragedy. That's why Izzeldin Abuelaish, a Palestinian consultant obstetrician and gynaecologist, has become the face - and the voice - of Gaza's victims.
Two days before the end of the fighting in Gaza last month, two Israeli tank shells were fired into his home while he and his family were there. (His wife died of cancer three months ago.)
Three of his daughters, and a niece, were killed. Minutes later, his grief was broadcast live on Israeli TV for whom he had been providing eye-witness reports about the fighting.
An Israeli army investigation into his daughters' deaths said a tank commander thought he saw Hamas spotters on the roof of Dr Abuelaish's house. The army said it was saddened by the harm caused to his family, but believed that the decision to fire towards the building was reasonable.
Dr Abuelaish has been a dedicated peace campaigner for a decade. He speaks fluent Hebrew and has worked for many years in Israeli hospitals. Despite his terrible loss, he insists that he will continue to work for peace and understanding between Israelis and Palestnians.
The picture shows him with another of his daughters, 17-year-old Shadar, who suffered a serious eye injury in the attack. You can hear my interview with him on The World Tonight and Newshour on Monday. He will also appear on the BBC TV Panorama programme.
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~18~RS~)
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Hey, Robin, where's the comment on the UN stopping food shipments to Gaza for THREE days now because Hamas hijacked the trucks at gunpoint?
How come the BBC has decided that that is not news?
If the Israelis were doing it, the BBC would be jumping and yelling and writing cuddly little articles about thye pain of the Palestinians (like this entry from you).
It's a complete abdication of journalistic standards.
Why don't you put THAT on your news program?
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It's about time we had some interviews with Palestinians, especially from the refugees in Gaza who've been mercilessly shelled in the last month. Let's start hearing the real stories about what happened, instead of official Israeli spokespersons telling us what they want us to know.
Don't let the Israeli media bans stop you from trying to achieve your journalistic standards. There's a lot of catching up to do.
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Want some on-the-spot sympathetic coverage?
Try right here.===> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7878079.stm
The BBC has provided nonstop pro-Palestinian coverage for weeks (if not years. Remember Alan Johnston's cheerleading?). Any one of Jeremy Bowen's shameful propaganda pieces will also serve you well.
But the fact is that the BBC stopped covering the UN aid boycott on Friday. Something they would never do if it was the Israelis.
Similarly, the BBC does not line up 'experts' to call the Sri Lankan government 'nazis' and other Holocaust slanders despite the fact that civilians are being killed.
Let's see Robin do one report of Gazans denouncing the UN for 'starving' them. The BBC is failing to report the news. It's a horrible breakdown of responsibility.
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Not every death in war is a searing tragedy. At least 1/2 to 2/3 of those Palestinians who died were Hamas terrorists. With each of their deaths, the world was a slightly better place. Unfortunately, they have probably been more than replaced by new terrorist recruits already.
If this doctor really wants peace, he should find a way to persuade Hamas to call off its suicidal war to destroy Israel but the prospects of that don't look good. If it continues, his story will be repeated again and again and again. There are always innocent victims and atrocities on both sides in war. This one is no different. Playing to the sympathies of the victims on one side only, and taking the story completely out of the larger historical and geopolitical context is what turns what would otherwise be journalism into BBC pro Palestinian propaganda.
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Declaring a war would not really do good to any nation. Worst thing about it is that innocent people die mercilessly. Gaza war is just one of the many wars that should not be happening.
Cystitis Pain
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AdeliePate
Tell it to Hamas. Just because you wouldn't defend yourself when people are firing rockets at you trying to kill you doesn't mean other people won't. The Israelis have every right to do whatever they must to put a stop to it. All the foolish Brits could do when it happend to them was hope America would come to their rescue. I'm happy to say the Israelis can take care of themselves. What are you going to do when Iran fires rockets at you, ask for another resolution at the UN?
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Marcus the closest situation that Britain has experienced is when the IRA bombed mainland Britain (I understand you were talking about WWII – but the analogy is not accurate). Britain received no aid from the US, unlike the IRA which received funding from certain parts of American society (shame we didn’t seize those terrorist supporters assets).
Rather than destroy predominantly Republican areas of Belfast with rocket fire, just because some of the IRA were hiding being meat shields (living in their own homes), the UK security forces attempted to target the actual terrorists, the ones making the bombs and firing the rockets. That is not to say that the UK did not make mistakes, we did and I believe were are just about coming to terms with them. Eventually we decided to really go for diplomacy and peace, shame Israel with the support of the US cannot make the same steps. But then again unlike the wise US the foolish Brits have actually had to deal with a true terrorist campaign.
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Robin,
I've just heard this very sad story on Newshour. Yet another Israeli crime. From the James Miller, Rachael Corrie incidents to the recent UN school, the Gaza City hospital and the civilians herded into a building targetted for bombing. These stories from Gaza, after investigation, all share the same features: killing of innocents, fallacious justification and the exposure of Israel's lies.
They give credence to the long list of claims we've heard in the past from Yasser Arafat through to Hamas. I don't suppose Hamas is anywhere near as bad as Israel/USA would have us believe. Vilified no doubt, just like the South African government, and Dick Cheney, did with Nelson Mandela.
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JERUSALEM, Feb 9 (Reuters) - The United Nations said on Monday that Hamas has returned all of the aid supplies that it seized from the agency in the Gaza Strip last week.
The United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) said the return of the supplies cleared the way for it to resume all of its operations in the Hamas-ruled enclave
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@Richard
"I don't suppose Hamas is anywhere near as bad as Israel/USA would have us believe."
Tell that to the Fatah they have rounded up, threatened and shot in the aftermath of the latest conflict.
Not to mention the ones bound and thrown off hi-rises in their initial coup in Gaza.
Hamas is a genocidal racist terrorist organization and they say so every day. Why don't you believe them?
One of the clear conclusions you can reach from Robin's story is that the people getting hurt the most by Hamas's terroristic adventurism are the Palestinians.
The Israeli's pleaded with Hamas for weeks to stop shooting rockets at their cities. Hamas brought this on themselves and their human shield 'martyr' victims in Gaza.
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And now on Monday, Hamas has returned the supplies they stole and the UN is resuming shipments. And the BBC reports it.
Where was the BBC and the 'suffering starving Palestinians' since Friday? A three day period of complete silence.
Would the 'impartial' BBC have done this if the Israelis had cut off the aid?
Where were you on this story, Robin? Too busy rehashing the doctor story? It first ran many days ago in the Israeli press.
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Re: #9 Robin Lustig and #10 SteveGNYC
Robin, thank you for your update in #9.
It saves a detailed reply to SteveGNYC's point in #10.
It's further evidence that Hamas are not the ogres portrayed by Israel.
My multi sources all say Hamas adhered strictly to the first 4 months of the 6 month ceasefire and that the earlier, and minimal, breaches were fired by some splinter Fatah supporters resulting in the executions of those responsible.
When I say strictly, I mean just that. Not one Hamas rocket fired for 4 months. Hence the brutal punishment. But let's not forget that Hamas have no police stations, no courts or prison cells - Israel destroyed them.
Even the Australian/Israeli spokesman, Mark Regev, acknowledged Hamas had not fired any rockets during the ceasefire.
So I come back to my belief, Hamas, who after all were democratically elected, are not unreasonable people. The sooner they are recognised as such the better.
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#4. MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Not every death in war is a searing tragedy. At least 1/2 to 2/3 of those Palestinians who died were Hamas terrorists.
Marcus, where do you get your figures from? Why such a wide range of figures? Did you see these figures on your television?
You use this bold assertion as a form of justification and I think it is reasonable to ask that you should answer the question.
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EVERY news source, the BBC included, clearly reported that the Israelis said they would retaliate if Hamas did not cease their rocket fire.
Hamas increased it and Israel retaliated.
Hamas hijacked the UN aid trucks at gunpoint and the UN retaliated.
My point is that when Israel cut off aid, the BBC goes on full Israel-bashing alert, opening their comment columns to streams of anti-Semitic hate speech.
When the UN does it, there is total silence until Hamas returns the stolen goods.
The behavior of Hamas is not the question here, it is the BBC's response to it.
Show me a Jeremy Bowen weeping feature about cruel 'nazi-like' UN starving the Palestinians and I'll change my accusations.
---------------------------------------
(And while we are at it, when does Britain plan to return Occupied Ireland to its native peoples? Only kidding, because there is no useful parallel between Ireland and the Arab-Israeli disputes.)
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After what happened to Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish and his family, I am sure Israel do need any friends at all.
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I think many Israelis have finally realized that the promise of peace with the Palestinians is an illusion that will not and can not materialize, largely because many, even most Palestinians reject the notion that a state of Israel has a right to exist in their midst. They believe that the state of Israel whether within its 1967 borders or 1948 borders or today occupies their land that was stolen from them. They have been convinced of this lie from the day Israel became a nation recognized by the US and the UN and they will never give up fighting to get back all of the land. Not true? Look at who their heroes are, suicide bombers who kill Israeli women and children on buses, in restraurants, and shopping malls. Who did they elect to govern them? A recognized terrorist organization whose goal is the destruction of Israel.
Israelis should forget the lies that the more liberals among them try to sell them and that is that the Palestinian people are not their enemy. If the Israelis are to live in peace, they will have to inflict punishment so severe on their enemies that the will to "resist" will evaporate. They have not even begun to use that level of force yet. In time they will have no choice if they do not want to perish.
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Ricahrd_SM #12,
Your post is undisguised pro-Hamas, Islamic propaganda. It is not even pro-Palestinian. What you are trying to justify is a terrorist group, which is recognised as such internationally. Please spare us your pathetic retorics about the 'bad Fatah supporters breaking the ceasefire and beeing rightfully executed by the good Hamas'. Thankfully the majority of the world recognizes the true face of your beloved Hamas.
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#16. MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"if the Israelis are to live in peace, they will have to inflict punishment so severe on their enemies that the will to "resist" will evaporate"
Let me understand you - you are advocating genocide, arn't you?
I don't need to tell you of my opinion on the subject as I have done so several times before. But so that others do understand me I vehemently disagree with almost everything you have ever said - but I would fight for your right to say it.
Wars end by talking!
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#8 Richard
As far as I can see there is only one aggressor - Israel.
Israel (and the US) have continually ordered the Palestinians to:
1, recognise Israel's right to exist;
2, renounce violence; and
3, abide by past agreements.
Strange that no media outlet reports the fact that Israel and the US firmly reject all three conditions!
1, They alone oppose the two-state settlement (Hamas, Fatah, and Arab League support it);
2,obviously they support violence; and
3, they reject the quartet's central proposal, the "road map".
Neither Israel or US are a genuine party to peace.
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#17 Isenhorn
Thankfully the majority of the world recognizes the true face of your beloved Hamas.
They do. Only Israel and the US don't.
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Anybody care to comment on the BBC coverage?
We can pick up conversations about the multiple Arab army invasions of Israel elsewhere.
I would like to add that the BBC is now running a story about Amnesty International accusing Hamas of hunting down, killing and maiming Fatah members (and anyone else who they don't like).
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#21 Steve
Anybody care to comment on the BBC coverage?
Yes. Here is a good place to start.
We can pick up conversations about the multiple Arab army invasions of Israel elsewhere.
Indeed. In which wars did Israel not invade first? Did Hamas 'invade' Israel first?
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Oh, I despair, after reading the responses to Robin Lustig's coverage. Thankfully not all the comments were nasty. But, the rest of you, what are you thinking of? Of all the witness from this stupid war - which might have begun as something some Israeli politicians possibly thought needed to be started before their country’s election but would have to end before the new US President began his term - the humanity of this doctor should have been the strongest thing, if nothing else, to make people living comfortably outside the Middle East take a second look at themselves and their possible prejudices. Shame on you! If you can't stop squabbling between yourselves in the face of such dignity in tragedy then how can you expect any objectivity from those who live every day in those embattled lands?
Europe has a guilty conscience about what we did, or allowed to be done, to Jews during WWII, and we should feel guilty. But whilst we were busy passing by on the other side of the road, the inhabitants of Palestine were living day by day in their country, outside Europe, but under British control. What was visited on them around 1948 is something that perhaps Britain should have a bad conscience about also.
Zionism was an idea that pre-dated WWII but what Hitler did unwittingly was give it a boost, and any humane person would agree that after the horror of the Jewish holocaust it would understandably seem the perfect solution. It's turned out to be a relentless rush into hell.
If I'm not mistaken Dr Abuelaish thinks there should no longer be two separate states, that the two races - both Semites after all - should share the land as one nation. To quote him, 'Equality, justice, respect', in living together, will, over the very long term, weaken hatred and strengthen understanding. There is room for them both, physically.
We can't ignore history, much as we might wish to, it's the consequences of history that we and our descendents must live with and through. And in the Mid East we're in a very unfunny Laurel & Hardy situation.
As for Hamas, I would recommend studying Mike Chamberlain/Rodrigo Vasquez's film - 'Inside Hamas' - in detail.
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Any time I see the 'well, they are both Semites' proposition, I know I am dealing with someone who has absolutely no handle on this problem.
The majority of the Jewish population in Israel presently orginates from either Muslim countries or the former Soviet Union. The European jews you'd like to believe inhabit the place is not only a myth, but is totally false.
Similarly, almost 20% of the population of Israel are Arabs....and in fact, they are voting as citizens in today's elections.
Perhaps you should speculate on why the Arab countries have ZERO Jewish population and in most cases, recognize only Islam as the only legitimate state religion.
Even in places that don't like Egypt, the Christian Copts are under in tense pressure and personal danger.
And in Lebanon, the Christians have been muscled out by extremists like Hezbollah.
Why don't you think that THESE 'Semites' all live together?
The fact is that every time the Israelis have returned land they obtained in wars where the Arabs invaded them, they have been rewarded with violence. They are sick of it and will have to be convinced by the palestinians and their Arab friends that they have some intention of keeping their peace pledges.
The only countries to even slightly keep to their word have been Egypt and Jordan.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I am hardly surprised that those who spout thinly disguised anti-semitic hatred of Jews like kairsy just did have free reign all over BBC blogs but when you expose them and attack them by pointing out what they are really saying, your comments often get deleted or unpublished. This is one reason why BBC has the reputation among Americans, Israelis, and all objective fair minded thinking people for being biased.
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#20
Even more pro-Hamas, Islamist propaganda, made to look as if it is pro-Palestinian. Nothing new from you, then.
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#24
Would you care to enlighten us about the non-white non-European Jews being treated as if they are second class citizens in the land of Israel? Are they not white enough to be considered fully Jewish? IMO Israel is a European country first, Jewish state second, and contains all the vile contemptible European prejudices within it.
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dcelia;
Would you enlighten us as to why over 200,000 black Sudanese Moslems have been killed by Arabs in what is blatant genocide carried out in the most brutal way imaginable while 2 million more are living in plastic sheeting as Europe and the Arab world say and do virtually nothing except for an occasional tsk, tsk, while at the same time they make a huge stink about the Israelis killing a little over a thousand Palestinians two thrids of whom are Hamas terrorists and the remainder collateral damage who were merely in the worng place at the wrong time during the fighting? Well if you won't say, I will. Because Europeans are lying hypocrites who by and large still hate Jews, wish the Arabs would finish off what Hitler started, and thinly veil their anti-semitism behind the kind of mumbo jumbo we just got from kairsy in posting #23. They also hate America because it has far eclipsed them a long time ago, rejects them completely, and will support Israel being certain that the Jewish state will remain in existance.
Given their long brutal history all over the world and the mess they've made of their own continent and everyone elses, Europeans are in no position to preach to anyone or criticize what to do or how to conduct their affairs. That not only goes for dictating to the remaining Jews in this world and their descendants they did not manage to kill themselves but descendants of their other victims all over the world including Americans. The special relationship America has for Britain if one exists at all is that 234 years ago at Lexington and Concord, Americans told Britain they'd rather fight and maybe die than contiue to live as they did and under British rule. Nothing in that regard has changed. Britain and the rest of Europe should stick to putting its own house in order. Then when that is fixed in about three or four hundred years if they are lucky, they can come back, more the wiser and begin to discuss what problems others have and suggest how they might solve them.
This is just one more of a billion stupid little blog sites presently controlled by a nasty bunch who inherited some radio and television transmitters and a file server where they can delete or leave unpublished what they don't want to hear or face up to. That's about as much power as Britain has left in this world.
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Anyone who saw Jeremy Bowen's piece featuring Izzeldin Abuelaish and his family, at least what's left of it!, couldn't fail to admire his bravery and humanity. This is in stark contrast to the IDF thugs who murdered his little daughters. There are many Israelis who condemn their government's barbaric actions in Gaza but the BBC fails to show them for fear of being criticised by the Zionists.
Robin, maybe you know Alan Hart, ex BBC and ITV correspondent who has an intimate knowledge of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. He believes, as many of us now do, that the root cause of the Israeli/Palestinian problem and possibly the greatest threat to world peace is Zionism and particularly militant Zionism which puts control of the whole of 'Palestine' at the top of its agenda, even above the safety and security of diaspora Jews past and present. That may seem to be a strange statement but a quick look at the history of Zionism and especially that of Zionists in Germany in the past will reveal the truth.
As many have so eloquently said, as a result of the recent barbaric slaughter of the Palestinians by the militant Zionists and the subsequent refusal by Mark Thompson to show the appeal, many more people have started to research the background and history of the formation of Israel and the actions of its terrorist founders. This has highlighted the inadequacies and timidity of the BBC when compared to other broadcasters who will not allow themselves to be influenced by external and possibly internal lobbyists.
For those who would like to investigate further, "Zionism The Real Enemy of The Jews" by Alan Hart is a must read, a video of one of his talks can be seen here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9I2RkZdE20
Another good reference is "The Case Against Israel" by Jewish Professor Michael Neumann.
Many ordinary Jews who do not agree with the Zionist cause are crying out for their voices to be heard but they are constantly drowned out by the bellicose and threatening cacophony from the militant Zionists.
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Marcus Erronous
Have I touched a nerve? Or did you have another one of your little 'dreams'? Sam in Justin Webb's blog has already exposed you as an old, overweight and bald French-Armenian taxi driver in New Jersey with a chip on your shoulder.
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To 24:
The ‘handle’ is the Irish answer to the man who was lost and asking for directions. ‘I wouldn’t start from here.’ I think you could go back quite a lot further. These days we’re not encouraged to look very far back in history for reasons for people’s actions, if we all studied history more we might learn not to repeat the mistakes our ancestors made long ago.
To 26:
Crumbs! That’s funny! But it’s all right, you weren’t to know what race of person you were addressing! But not all Jews are Zionists, that’s the difference, if I’m anti anything I’m anti bigot, of whatever religion or none.
I have to admit I was naive to comment on Mr Lustig’s page, but since I witnessed that distressing news item all that time ago now, on France2 TV evening news, and then the following interviews with the good doctor, I continue to be bowled over by the sheer humanity of the man and his philosophy of forgiveness and hope against the most horrendous blows that men have dealt out to him. I thought that at last such an example would surely influence others to think twice.
Anyway, enough. I was so puzzled by your remarks that I had a look at other comments you’ve made on this and other subjects, and I’ve come to the conclusion that you just enjoy winding people up for the sake of it, you’re laughing at people’s convictions for your amusement, and I’m afraid I fell for it!
Carry on, please, Robin Lustig, Tim Franks, Orla Guerin et al of the Beeb, Charles Enderlin of France2, keep up the good work, you do have an audience and we have confidence in your integrity.
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Robin,
One can't help contrasting this Palestinian doctor's many years of dedication healing Israeli patients to the Israeli spin doctors who now seek to downplay the loss of his own three daughters.
Or to the Israeli doctors accused of complicity in the obscene torture of Palestinian detainees which leaves them incontinent.
The Israeli people need to decide whether they want peace and security or whether the retention of Palestinian land is more important to them. They can't have both.
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#32 kairsy
I wouldn't be bothered with Marcus Erronous II. He's nuts. He is a grumpy old yank who is clearly of European descent; who visited France in the early seventies in which the natives didn't take a liking to him. Can't think why!
For someone so anti-European he spends a lot of his unemployed time on the BBC website blogging, and watching (and listening) BBC World on PBS. We should charge him the licence fee. And no Marcus, the BBC in the US is not funded by the American taxpayer; in fact BBC America pays tax to the Fed.
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kairsy, I'm on to you and your kind. Maybe you are too young to remember when back in the 1950s and 1960s the Arabs when talking about Israel said; "we are going to throw all of the Jews into the sea." They've become more sophisticated in their rhetoric since. This allows large numbers of antisemites all over the world, but especially in Europe to spout off their own anti-semitic hate filled rhetoric without being quite as blatant about it as they once were. But anyone with even half a brain sees right through this kind of transparent talk. Usually it's from people who still look to scapegoat someone for their own failures in life. I'll bet that fits you to a tee.
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MarcusBarbarius, we're on to you and your kind. You are too thick to remember that you have in the past, suggested bombing the Palestinians into oblivion and your rhetoric is no less sophisticated now. This encourages large numbers of Zionists all over the world and especially in the USA to spout off their own anti-Palestinian hate filled views, but anyone with even half a brain can see bigotry in this kind of talk. Usually it's from people who still look to scapegoat someone for their own failures in life. I'll bet that fits you to a tee.
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How many Jews have been thrown into the sea in the last 50 years?
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@ Richard
Not for lack of trying by the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Hezbollah, Fatah, Hamas, and Syria any number of times.
(And I'm not even counting suicde bombers directed against buses, nightclubs, falafel stands and other civilian gathering places)
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I've done a number of searches on a variety of engines:
I've found the International Red Cross reporting Palestinian fishermen being tipped into the sea by IDF gunboats.
I've found Reuters reporting the 3000 registered Gazan fishermen being prevented from going fishing for five years.
I've found journalists photographs of fishing boats having their hulls holed by Israeli forces.
But I haven't found one single report of any Jew being thrown into the sea in the last 50 years.
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Open question because I must be missing the point somewhere.
I have watched the news, read the papers, use the internet, read the blogs and clicked the links – do the IDF actually think they can get away with what they did in Gaza?
OBVIOUSLY THEY MUST.
How else can you explain their pathetic excuses for killing 400 children? Do they expect us (and by us I mean the whole of the civilised world) to shrug our shoulders and think ‘it’s the middle east after all’. Are we that battered by the Israeli propagandists and power brokers that we dare not lift our heads above the parapets to cry out in protest? Have we really reached a situation were the State of Israel can slaughter the innocence with immunity? Question - Have they really given a blanket assurance to their troops that no legal ramifications will come of this?
What IF any another country had done to Israel what they have done to Gaza. Can you imagine the outcry in the UN, the governments of Europe and the rest of the world? How HAVE we arrived at this situation? Are we that afraid of being accused of Anti-Semitism? I know the distinction between a Jew and a Zionist but surely the real point here is that the Government of Israel sent THEIR troops into Gaza with THEIR rules of engagement. I leave it to the individual to reason what those rules of engagement could have been to result in the death of 400 children.
SHAME on Israel, SHAME on the UN and SHAME on us if we don’t do everything in our power to bring those responsible to justice.
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40 Electric-Badger, you have hit so many nails on so many heads.
It is imperative that war crimes investigations go ahead and Israel is given the bill for rebuilding Gaza.
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Robin - there's an interesting account just appeared in The Lancet from two hospital surgeons based in Gaza entitled "The Wounds of Gaza."
Their observations on previously unseen wounds in Gaza appear to suggest new or modified chemicals have been used during the offensive. They warn of the urgency to identify the exact nature of the chemical ingredients.
There's much in this report for journalists to pick up.
http://www.thelancetglobalhealthnetwork.com/archives/608
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Jackturk, had the Nazis and other Jew haters not driven the Jews out of Europe, there might not be an Israel. Send the bill to Britain. Tack it on as a surcharge for building roads in Hungary and subsidizing French farmers. You won't mind a tax increase now will you?
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"What IF any another country had done to Israel what they have done to Gaza.
Electric-badger, Israel didn't fire thousands of rockets at civilians in other people's countries without provocation. If your friends continue at it, they will get more of the same...and worse. Maybe much worse. And as before, they will have asked for it. Even begged for it. And remember...those Palestinians voted for Hamas that allowed those rockets to be fired so they can't blame it on anyone but themselves. Sorry, better luck in a different war. Care to discuss....Afghanistan?
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Richard_SM,
How do we know those burns weren't kitchen accidents? Where's your proof?
Do you recall that about three or so years ago or so a Palestinian woman who had suffered serious burns in a kitchen accident was treated at an Israeli burn unit in a hospital with a very long complicated treatment by Israeli doctors that was entirely successful? After she was cured and checked out, sometime later she went back...not to thank the doctors for saving her life but as a suicide bomber to blow the place up and take their lives. Fortunately she was intercepted before she could detonate herself. I don't think the Israelis will be so fast to treat Palestinian burn cases in the future. I know I wouldn't be. Your friends had better be careful playing with fire. They've been burned more than once before.
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43 MarcusBarbarius, now now, in an effort to be cute you are forgetting, or rather ignoring your history. You know perfectly well that it was the Zionist's intention to establish the state of Israel despite the fate of fellow Jews in Europe. You are likely to open a can of worms by going down that cul de sac.
44 I see you are still advocating your armageddon punishment for the Palestinians because they have the temerity to stand up to the Zionist thugs.
45 Do you recall the subject of this blog? As a reward for treating hundreds and possibly thousands of Israelis, the IDF gangsters rewarded Izzeldin Abuelaish by murdering three of his daughters and a niece!
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It's a myth that there even are such people as "Palestinians." Nobody ever heard of them when the west bank and Jerusalem was part of Jordan and Gaza was administered by Egypt. A pure invention to justify the Arab war to destroy Israel. I guess they'll go down fighting to the last man...woman...child...and doctor's family. Hamas says so at ever opportunity. And you know who they are. The govenrment the Palestinians elected. So there you have it. And according to all the polls and informal interviews we hear from the western press, (and al Jazzera) the Arabs in the area still suport Hamas. They say people get the government they deserve.
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47 MarcusBarbarius
It's a myth that there even are such people as "Palestinians."
No matter how much you may wish to deny their existence, there are approximately five million 'myths' in 'Palestine' and they are not leaving any time soon.
They say people get the government they deserve.
And yes Marcus, nobody deserved that imbecile George Bush more than you!
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George Bush may have been an imbecile but what do you call Tony Blair? After 9-11-01, Bush learned how to keep our homeland from being attacked again and acted. But Blair didn't learn from Bush's experience. Instead, years later on 7-7-05 nearly 4 years later in fact, London was also bombed by Islamic terrorists. What do you call someone who doesn't learn from mistakes, his own or other people's?
I don't recall Brits lamenting the innocent German civilians including hundreds of thousands of women and children who were killed as the result of the RAF bombing Germany. The firebombing of Dresden was a fire storm some say equal to an atom bomb. So whether or not innocents get killed is not the point, it's who's doing the killing and whether you like them or not. When it's Brits killing women and children to defend their homeland from rocket attacks it's OK because we like Brits. When it's Israelis, it's not OK because they are Zionist Jews and we hate them. I felt no anguish at 7-7. If they attack Britain again, I probably still won't care.
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Hey jackturk, I think we should talk about how the Turks committed genocide when they murdered 2 million Armenians in cold blood. Not only haven't they apologized for it, or even admitted it, it's illegal to talk about it in Turkey and you can go to jail if you do. We'll try an experiment. I'll post one of the gruesome ways Turkish soldiers murdered Armenian children in all its explicit horror in the next posting. Let's see if language this graphic gets deleted.
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One of the methods reportedly used commonly by the Turkish soldiers on horseback was to cut Armenian childrens' hands off with their swords. The children would run around like mad until they bled to death.
Two million Armenian victims of Turkey jackturk, almost as many as there will be black African Sudanese victims of Arab Sudanese genocide when that is over in Darfur. Now what was that about a three or four hundred Palestinian civilian victims who got killed in the crossfire between Hamas and the IDF?
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Hey Jackturk, you want to hear how the Japanese soldiers did it in China during WWII? They reportedly threw babies up in the air and caught them...on the ends of their bayonets.
http://hnn.us/articles/14566.html
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You can read about the gruesome murder of two million Armenians by the Turks here in horrific detail
http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/armenians.htm
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Marcus Erronous
Your concern for the human rights of non white non American is encouraging. Until you say (in the last sentence in #51):
Two million Armenian victims of Turkey jackturk, almost as many as there will be black African Sudanese victims of Arab Sudanese genocide when that is over in Darfur. Now what was that about a three or four hundred Palestinian civilian victims who got killed in the crossfire between Hamas and the IDF?
Tut tut dear oh dear. You either support the human rights for all or none at all Marcus. As for using the slaughter of Armenians to justify the slaughter of Palestinians you are scraping the barrel. Your crocodile tears have been noted.
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49 MarcusBarbarius
"George Bush may have been an imbecile but what do you call Tony Blair?"
The 'rag doll' that the imbecile stuffed - which goes to disprove your statement, people don't always get the government they deserve. Have you ever stopped to consider that if you hadn't have had the Ziocons in government in the US, 9/11 may not even have occurred?.
I wouldn't begin to defend the Dresden fire-bombing nor any other wanton destruction of life, including Hamas' suicide bombing of Israeli civilians.
As for your following points, 51,52,53 - as usual you are trying to justify one atrocity by citing others.
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Jackturk, you really are clueless. The attack on 9-11 took al Qaeda years to plan. The real blame for it goes to the Clinton administration and Congress in the 1990s. In fact, Bin Laden's own explanation for why America was attacked was because US troops had been stationed in Saudi Arabia (protecting it from attack by Iraq) but he considered Saudi Arabia sacred Moslem territory. They were there since Iraq invaded Kuwait in August 1990. Up until 9-11-01, the main issue pre-occupying America was the morality of cloning embrionic stem cells and whether or not the federal government should fund research into it.
If the Palestinians don't like the outcome of war, then they shouldn't have provoked one. But they voted for a government whose main dogma made war with Israel inevitable except in the minds of people like you who think Israel should not have fought back when attacked. Go back to your fantasy world just as the Arabs live in theirs. There's at least two big differences between Turkey/Armenia and Japan/China on one hand and Israel/Arabs on the other. The first is that the Armenians did not provoke the Turks and the Chinese did not provoke the Japanese with military attacks while the Arabs persistantly provoked Israel. The second is that the Armenians and the Chinese didn't have the ability to fight back. The Israelis not only have the means, it appears they now have the will. They've had enough. If the Arabs want peace with Israel, all they have to do is stop attacking it. If they don't, they will continue to die in counterattacks and I do believe that the Israelis have the ability to escalate those attacks to whatever level they deem appropriate. And NOBODY can stop them. The diffference between you Euorpeans and us in America is that we don't want to stop them. In fact we encourage them to defend themselves just as we defend ourselves.
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56 MarcusBarbarius
Marcus, you really must break out of your little world of hatred and deluded revisionist history. Do you think that the Ziocons only came into existence with the advent of Bush? In fact, your rantings prove that they have been in around at least as long as you!
And as to Bin Laden's motives, quote from associated press:-
Your other nonsense is not even worth responding to, it's been dealt with many times in these posts and the answers wont change.
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I have no doubt that the prejudiced crew on this blog using the good doctor's pain as a club to bash Israel with felt nothing when Dr. David Apelbaum was murdered along with his daughter, Naava, by a Palestinian suicide bomber in a Jerusalem Café. He was a rabbi as well as an expert in treating the very injuries that killed him and Naava, on the eve of her wedding:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3099638.stm
And I have no doubt that the anti-Israel crew have no idea that large numbers of Palestinians are treated in Israeli hospitals, and that some of them are terrorists who have been injured in the course of attacks on Israelis. Still, they are treated without regard to their race, religion, political beliefs or participation in acts of terror.
Without Hamas, the doctor's home would never have been shelled. But of course we see no condemnation of the fact that Hamas is directly responsible for the Israeli attack through refusing to renew the cease-fire when it expired in December and continuing to fire rockets at Israeli civilians from among Gaza civilians.
Dr. Brigitte Gabriel, a Lebanese Christian, took her mother to Israel for treatment after she had been injured in the shelling of their home by Islamic terrorists. She relates how, as a teenager, she was ripped off by the Lebanese driver, a family friend, and thought she would be parted from the rest of her money by the Israeli ambulance driver who took them from the border to the hospital. He explained that the service was free.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sB4zNx9ms9c
There is much more, of course, but it doesn't fit in with the Israel-bashing theme on this blog, so I'll leave it there.
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TrueToo
Everyone on this blog who you consider a 'Israeli basher' has denounced the killings of all civilians. Are you are judging these people by your own standards?
And, please, spare us the pseudo history lessons. The future should influence the present much more than the past.
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TrueToo
we see no condemnation of the fact that Hamas is directly responsible for the Israeli attack through refusing to renew the cease-fire when it expired in December
Is this a joke? Israel broke the terms of the ceasefire by not lifting the blockade and then carrying out a military incursion in early November!! Hamas did not fire rockets during the ceasefire.
If I'm an 'Israeli basher' then you are a Truth Basher!!
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58 TrueToo
A rough check on these posts shows that they are roughly 50/50 pro and anti Israel's actions, the pro mainly being because of MarcusBarbarius' belligerent contributions. You should not be so paranoid.
Just to reinforce 'dceilar's' points, I'm afraid your post is another example of allowing your prejudices to cloud your judgement. You have repeatedly been asked if you condemn the IDF's barbaric actions in Gaza but unlike those of us who, without hesitation, condemn Hamas' indiscriminate killing of civilians, you prevaricate when asked about the IDF, in other words, you have double standards.
It is no wonder that you have such a jaundiced view of the conflict when you actually believe that it was Hamas who broke the cease-fire. Anything which does not fit in with your pre-conceived ideas is immediately jettisoned.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that you have called for the two communities to live in peace. Before that can happen, it's obvious that the militant Zionists must give up their aspiration to occupy the whole of 'Palestine'. If you are serious, why don't you try and help by supporting the thousands of peace protesters in Israel who do not agree with their government's actions, instead of falsely seeing the evil of anti-Semitism in those of us who oppose militant Zionism?
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After the refusal of the BBC to broadcast an appeal for Gaza, a few individuals launched their own appeal. The aim was to send a few truck loads of aid, whatever they could achieve, by the planned departure date on Valentine's Day (14 Feb). A tall order in just a few weeks. At the time, six trucks was considered optimistic.
Tomorrow the "Viva Palestina" convoy of over 100 vehicles will set off for Gaza from London. Starting from outside the Houses of Parliament, they will drive to Gaza via Spain and the Rafah crossing. The cargo of medicines, blankets, clothes and tools will also include toys and presents for the children. The vehicles themselves will also be donated to the people of Gaza. The hundreds of volunteers driving the convoy, which includes a fire engine and some ambulances, will fly back to Britain.
The appeal for financial donations will continue until 2nd March, allowing a further cash transfer when the trucks cross into Gaza.
It will hopefully lift the spirits of the people in Gaza like Dr.Abuelaish and with little communication from the outside world, will show them they are not forgotten.
If the convoy's journey is not covered by the media you can follow their journey on the website:
http://www.vivapalestina.org/
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62. Richard_SM
When you think the world is going insane, somebody somewhere comes up with a ray of sunshine that penetrates the black cloud.
Well Done.
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MarcusAurelius11. This is a direct challenge to justify the killing of 400 children.
I will not accept the pathetic excuses of the IDF or their spin doctors. I want you, MAN to MAN to tell me how a sophisticated, professional army could go into an urban area and kill 400 children.
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dcelia, Palestinian officials and ordinary Palestinians don't condem the rocket attacks which kill ordinary Israeli civilians. They say it is justified "armed resistance" a code phrase for terrorism.
What Israelis, Americans, and others who want to preserve what is left of civilization have yet to learn is that you don't win wars by winning hearts and minds, you win by finding and killing the enemy until he is decimated and loses the will to fight no matter who gets in the way, no matter who else gets hurt or killed. If World War II had been fought the way America and the Israeils have been fighting wars ever since, the Axis would have won. I still have yet to hear your justification for the RAF killing hundreds of thousands of innocent women and children in the bombing of German cities, most notably the remarkable atrocity that was perpetrated on Dresden. Not only did the RAF cause the death of possibly the better part of a million Germans all by itself (with help from the USAF), it destroyed much priceless historical German culture going back many centuries. They didn't seem to care. Would you prefer to live under Nazi rule than having had the RAF do its part to destroy the Wermacht although it had to kill all of those innocents to do it? Now that I think of it, perhaps you would. Anyway that decision was far beyond your influence let alone control, just as Israeli military and political decisions are. I'm afraid the Israelis will not be able to protect Britain from Palestinian terrorists should they decide to strike the UK. The UK's own government will have to that for themselves. I wonder how they'd deal with a Palestinian perpetrated 9-11 on London. Do you think they'd also bomb Gaza?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Not sure why my no. 66 was "referred to the moderators." It was on topic and broke no other rules - unless there is a rule against presenting the Israeli assessment of operation Cast Lead here.
Perhaps the moderators can reinstate it or remove it rather than leaving it in a state of limbo, as so often happens on these BBC blogs.
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badges? badges? I ain't got no stinkin' badges;
I can't think of a single war in which at least 400 civilian men, women, and children didn't die. That's why you don't start a war, especially against someone ten thousand times more powerful than you are. But that's what the Palestinians did and that is why they suffered the consequences. Their election of Hamas, their incessant rocket attacks, suicide bombings, the kidnapping of their soldier are all acts of war. Not too clever of Hamas...unless they cared even less how many Palestinian civilians died in the fighting than the Israelis did. In fact for some unexplainable reason, the Israelis tried very hard to prevent civilian casualties. Much too hard in my opinion. But then what can you do when Hamas cowards use children as human shields so that if they die, they will be turned into martyrs giving fuel for anti-semites to post on internet blogs, trash for journalists with a biased agenda of their own, and ways to recruit even more terrorists to join the war?
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I applaude your efforts marcus. I do not believe these people will be happy until there are millions more Jews killed by their avowed enemies.
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68 MarcusBarbarius
I notice that you side-stepped the question, 'Electric-Badger' was specific, in not mentioning 'war'.
The IDF, who are supposed to be so careful in avoiding civilian casualties, in their cowardly attack on the defenceless people of Gaza, managed to kill more than 400 children - 30% of the total dead- many of them shot in the back or head.
It wasn't a 'war' situation, the Gazans were sitting ducks for the IDF thugs to attack, yet they still murdered more than 400 children - how low can they get. Don't answer that, by your warped philosophy we already know you would advocate the lowest standards of behaviour imaginable and by the support you have received from other pro-IDF posters you have the making of a reserve IDF wing, all of you eminently qualified to dish out brutality.
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Jacktref,
All I can say is that a lot of people are lucky I'm not in charge and running the show over there. If I were, Israel wouldn't have any problems with any of its neighbors....because they wouldn't have any more neighbors left alive. I'd have "improved" the neighborhood about one hundred and fifty million percent.
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71 MarcusBarbarius
Good morning Marcus.
"All I can say is that a lot of people are lucky I'm not in charge and running the show over there"
For those unfamiliar with Marcus' arguments, when he gets backed into a corner, the doomsday scenario is his standard response and as I have said before, we're ALL lucky you are not in charge!
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doomsday for your friends jacktref, not for Israel. You know what your problem is, you are rooting for the bad guys and they are losing badly. I know you don't like it. But there isn't anything you can do about it. The good guys have taken as much as they can stand from the bad guys and now they are not going to sit still for it any longer. I wonder if they will return to their business as usual posture they've taken since the 1973 war ended while Arab rockets landing on Israel are down to only 20, 30, 40 a day.
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73 MarcusBarbarious
Marcus, they're all my friends, at least those who don't see mutual destruction as a worthwhile goal and actually all I'm rooting for is common sense. Something which unfortunately is missing from your arguments.
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Jacktref, considering that you would impose a situation on people you now call friends, Jews living in Israel where they would likely be slaughtered in the next war to wipe Israel off the map, with friends like you, one doesn't need enemies.
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75 MarcusBarbarius
I'd rather both sides worked out a solution for themselves rather than have one imposed upon them by anyone.
With advice like yours, the Israelis would end up with no friends, only enemies - and yes, before you respond, I know that's exactly what you want.
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Nobody is imposing anything on Israel. It is an independent nation with sufficient clout to defend itself on anyone who would impose anything on it. It also has the full faith and support of the American government and the overwhelming majority of the American people, something which absolutely frosts many Europeans.
If you want to see both sides "work out a solution" the starting point is for Hamas to see to it that rockets are no longer fired at Israel from its territory. BTW, that is also the first step demanded in the quartet's "roadmap to peace." Seems like your friends aren't listening to you. I wonder why.
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77 MarcusBarbarious
"If you want to see both sides "work out a solution" the starting point is for Hamas to see to it that rockets are no longer fired at Israel from its territory."
You seem to forget that during the cease-fire, whilst peace negotiations were taking place, Hamas did stop the rockets, Mark Regev admitted it.
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Your point is absolutely correct Jackturk. Not one Hamas rocket was fired during the first four months of the six month ceasefire. A fact acknowledged by the Israeli PM's spokesman, as you say. The ceasefire circumstances that existed for Israel last October will be similar to the inevitable ceasefire circumstances they will find themselves in quite soon. Which makes you wonder what they have achieved?
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who said you can't have an israeli and palestinian blog without a war of words.
only marcus is being hostile (at a guess as I haven't read it yet). Peace
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jacktref
Something tells me that while Hamas wasn't firing the rockets, there were still rockets being fired at Israel from Gaza and Hamas was not doing anything to stop it. Now that was the first step on the roadmap, the end of aggression against Israel, what Arabs call armed resistance and what normal people call terrorism. Hamas wanted to govern, now they have to take responsibility for crimes against humanity committed from their territory.
kikikikichoo
In the famous words of Oscar Madison, when you ASSuME, you make and ass out of you and me. Well in this case just out of you. I'm personally very happy to have a war of words. Especially since I'm winning on all threads. I figured you were the kind to jump to conclusions without having read anything about what you're talking about. Doesn't surprise me a bit. I'll bet your an apologist for Arab terrorists too. Wait until YOU are the object of their attack, then we'll see just how open minded you are.
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The army said it was saddened by the harm caused to his family, but believed that the decision to fire towards the building was reasonable.
=====================
When did IDF ever admit they were wrong. Thousand of innocent people died and everytime they are killed becoz IDF saw something that were not there.
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hercule poirot, if the IDF were ever wrong, I'm sure it would admit it after a fair internal investigation came to that conclusion.
Now when will Europeans begin to admit they were wrong? Wrong about what? Why just about everything. I can't think of one time when they were right...except when they finally had to admit although reluctantly that Hamas is a terrorist organization. So what you are saying is that a government does not have a right to defend itself and its people with whatever means are required against a terrorist organization whose goal is to destroy them by any means. Yet Western Europe was defended with the threat of 20,000 nuclear warheads targeted at the USSR. As usual, Europe is wrong again. That is how it succumbed to Nazism until America bailed it out and would have succumbed to Communism if America hadn't stopped it through threat of overwhelming military force. Now it's angry that America is helping Israel though sale and gifting of weapons to defend itself. Too bad. If I were a Europeon, I'd be far more concerned about Islamic terrorism close to home than what happens to a couple of million Palestinians who voted in the equivalent of the Nazi party and now suffer the consequences.
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re: 82 marcus Especially since I'm winning on all threads.
Marcus, you are truly a legend in your own mind.
However, as this Gallup Poll suggests, Isreal is losing the battle for public opinion in the US. According to the poll Israel' 'favourability rating' has dropped from 72% last year to 63% this year. You should go work your magic on some Stateside blogs.
Please.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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pinky;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7898801.stm
"Mr Kerry also visited the Israeli town of Sderot, a target of Palestinian rocket attacks, before entering Gaza."
"Standing in front of a pile of used rockets, Mr Kerry said that both he and President Obama believed that nobody should have to spend their lives in fear of attack."
"I know that our president, President Obama, whom I support strongly, stood right here," he said, referring to a visit before the 2008 US election."
""He was right here in front of these rockets. He came to Sderot as I have because we feel very deeply that no-one should live under this kind of threat, no children should be raised in that kind of fear."
""We are sympathetic with the crisis that people face on a daily basis here in Israel, from those who choose no other path other than to use instruments of terror.""
"Earlier he said: "[The visit] does not indicate any shift whatsoever with respect to Hamas"
Hey Pinky, Fire rockets like that from your country at our people in America and we'd nuke Canada fer sure. Au Revoir Mon Ami. Bon voyage au ciel.
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marcus man
hope you are keeping well
Yo mama so stupid it took her 2 hours to watch 60 minutes
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he kiki_dread
Guess what.....I KNEW yo mama :-)
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my mother should be ashamed of herself
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kiki_dread
"my mother should be ashamed of herself"
Having read your postings.....I have to agree.
Someone should have told her when she was young what Hamlet told Ophelia...."Get thee to a nunnery."
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marcus
C U Next Tuesday
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/profile/?userid=11645683
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Dreadful kiki, did you print that out and pin it up on your wall? How nice it is to know I'm admired for my literary style.
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Shot 41 only hit 19
They need target practice, that's what it seems to me
Ally al is sharpton dan a tack
I'ma be like ally al and fight ya back
What, do you want to go to war, you want war?
Do you want to go to war, you want war?
I'll bury all you cocka la roaches for breakfast
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