Gaza points of view
Sometimes, it's useful to try to look at the world through someone else's eyes. So here's what I might be writing today if I were a Palestinian living in Gaza.
"You want to know what it's like in Gaza at the moment? It's Hell on earth. But that's nothing new - it's always Hell on earth here. Since the day I was born, I have lived in a stinking, rotten prison, with no freedom and no dignity. I remember my grandfather telling me about the beautiful home he once had, and of the lemon trees and olive groves he tended - I still have the huge metal key to his house, and he told me before he died that one day I would be able to go back and live there again. Yeah, right. I doubt it still exists: it was probably buried under the Tel Aviv ring road years ago ...
"Do I support Hamas? Yes, I do - because they stand up for me and they fight for me. I'm not a fundamentalist - I like to drink beer and I don't pray very often - but I don't see anyone else taking on the Israelis, and I can't live my whole life like a snivelling dog, just waiting for the next blow to fall.
"The rockets? Sure, fire rockets at the Israelis. Let them feel how it hurts when children are killed, when you live every day in fear. Let them learn how it feels to be a Palestinian. If they want the rockets to stop, tell them to stop killing us, to give us back our land, to lift their blockades. Give us a chance to live like ordinary human beings.
"Ah, you want to know if we can ever live in peace? Perhaps you should ask the Israelis. Ask them if they will end their illegal occupation, give us back the land they stole to build their settlements on, let me go home to my grandfather's house, if it's still there, and plant more lemon trees. When they say Yes, then, maybe, we can live in peace. Salaam."
And here's what I might write if I were an Israeli:
"You want to know why Israel is attacking Hamas in Gaza? Do you really need to ask? Do you know how many rockets they have fired at us since we left Gaza? How many times they have tried to send suicide bombers into Israel to kill us in our shopping malls and our bus stations? Have you any idea what it feels like when your neighbours are terrorists?
"Am I worried that we're losing friends around the world? Let me tell you something: the Jewish people have learned over hundreds of years that friends don't save you. For hundreds of years, we have been both hated and weak: if it's a choice between that, and being hated and strong, well, I'm sorry, I know which I prefer.
"Look at a map. Look how small Israel is. It's all we've got, and if we lose it, we lose everything. I'm sorry if some Palestinians have lost their homes - but so too have hundreds of thousands of Jews, in Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, and many other places. We remember the Holocaust, even if you don't. We all know what it means to suffer.
"I repeat, we have nowhere else to go. But the Arabs? If they feel so sorry for the Palestinians in Gaza, why don't they offer them homes in Egypt, or Jordan, or Saudi Arabia? There's plenty of space for them there. I'll tell you why: because they still hope that one day, Israel will disappear, that the Jews will vanish into the sea, and that they can have all of Palestine back.
"Sorry, it's not going to happen. We won't let it happen, because we have been victims too often. Strength is our only defence - and we will use that strength until our enemies understand that we are here, in our God-given homeland, to stay for ever. When the Palestinians say Yes, they understand that, and accept it, then, maybe, we can live in peace. Shalom."
Let there be no misunderstanding: these are not my views, but based on my experience of more than 20 years reporting from and about Israel and Palestine, I'm pretty sure they're the views of a great many Palestinians and Israelis.
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The fundamental issue is Israeli occupation of Arab land and only when the Israelis give a binding undertaking to withdraw to 1967 pre war lines can we ever hope to see and end to the violence on all sides. The viewpoint from the US has often been influencd by the Jewish vote, we saw the US withdraw support for the IRA we now have to see the same with unreserved US support for Israel which sadly was demonstrated by the Security Vote and US abstention. The US is the only player who can bring the Israelis to the table with a promise to withdraw from all occupied lands and end the suffering of Palestinians and Israelis.
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Once upon a time, we people of red skin had free run of an endless forest. We hunted, fished, the air and water were pure and clean, and we never took more from the earth than we gave back. Then the Europeans came, threw us off our land, built vast cities, highways, sprawling suburbs, factories, shopping malls, tract housing, railroads, airports. The air and water are foul, the noise is unbearable, we are restricted to our bantustan reservations to hunt and must follow their rules when we enter their world. They came by the millions, the tens of millions and now there are over 300 million of them, barely a few million of us left. They brought disease, war, hate, and death. We have therefore every right to blow up their cities, kill them, throw them into the seas they came on, send them back to Europe, Asia, Africa, South America or wherever else they came from. The building of America is our nakba and we should destroy it and restore what we once had.
This is the Palestinian mentality. Mister Lustig, you are an idiot.
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How about the views of the people in the West Bank? They also had to leave their homes, yet they are not firing rockets into Israel. Why do they seem prepared to live peacefully with Israel, whereas the Gazans are not? There is more here than a simple 'I want my lemon trees back'.
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#3 Isenhorn: In fact only about one-quarter of residents in the West Bank are refugees; the rest are those whose families lived there pre-1948. In the Gaza Strip, two-thirds of residents are refugees. (source: Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics, Statistical Abstract of Palestine)
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Robin,
Thanks for your response.
According to the Palestinian Central Beurau of statistics in the West Bank live 2.5 million Palestinians. 1/3 refugees makes 800 000. If 2/3 of the 1.4 million inhabitants of the Gaza strip are refugees, then that is about 1 million. The difference does not appear to be that big to explain the difference in the attitude of the people and their chosen representatives. During the last year, the President Abbas seemed to me to be a man who really wants to achieve peace. The same cannot be said about the Hamas government in the Gaza strip. As we all know, there even was vicious fighting between Fatah and Hamas which led to the near total expulsion of the Fatah movement from Gaza.
I do not want to show bias, but it seems to me that had it not been for Hamas and Islamic Jihad, at least a lasting cease-fire might have been achieved by now.
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#2 MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"Mister Lustig, you are an idiot."
I am tempted to respond in kind to your playground antics and write "No he is not" You are!
But I will also add, by way of explanation, that peace is an a delicate flower of an idea that requires men of goodwill and charity to come together with a degree of mutual understanding and, at its best, journalism strives to illuminate the process. Robin may not be the best but he is pretty good at his job, even in a time of war.
Please consider this: somehow the peoples who live on the land which is between Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan and the sea must strive to live in peace. They are not be aided in achieving this aspiration by ill-informed and inflammatory contributions by finance and materiel suppliers who use one side to fight a series of proxy wars as the last desperate fling of their final decline from being a superpower.
Please Marcus work towards peace and harmony!
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#6 - John_from_Hendon
I admire your sentiments but I have a much more jaundiced view of the real world.
Diplomacy is clearly not working, appealing to everyone's better nature simply does not work. Which really only leaves carrots and sticks - in this case a serious threat to withdraw military and economic support for Israel and a promise of generous inward investment to Gaza when the rocket fire stops.
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"Diplomacy is clearly not working"
It's a little late for that threnodio. Maybe five or six thousand Palestinian rockets ago it would have worked but not now anymore. Don't be surprised if Israeli soldiers take matters into their own hands and start killing UN and Red Cross workers when they resume their jobs. There are a lot of Israelis who not only no longer care what happens to the Palestinians anymore, they have become as enraged at the Palestinians as the Palestinians are at Israel. Only two differences. They have a valid reason and they have the means to inflict damage to their enemies on a far greater scale. It's starting to look like the end game is at hand.
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#8 - MarcusAureliusII
The UN have already come under attack with two fatalities. A clear example of a bit of slovenly soldiering blowing a gaping hole in the moral high ground. The only thing that talks louder than guns is money.
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1) How come there were no protests when the UN cut off food and medicine to the Palestinians?
They were holding the Palestinians of Gaza hostage until they thought the Israelis would not accidentally shoot at the UN contractors.
Seems to me that when the Israelis closed the border crossings and stopped supplies after being rocketed and bombarded at the border crossings, the UN raised a ruckus.
When the UN uses the same tactics (and deprives the same people), they are saints in the eyes of the world.
2) If you ask around Robin, you can find Jews who have the big iron keys to the houses of their antecedents when they were exiled from their houses in Spain by the rampaging Catholics in 1492.
And the big iron keys to the houses in Arab lands from which 800,000 Jews fled to Israel when the Arabs tried to kill them in 1948.
In fact, the only place the jews know they can make a stand and not allow themselves to be persecuted and murdered is back in their homeland...Israel.
It was theirs before the Romans exiled them, and I'll bet there is at least one big iron key around from those houses, too.
1917 was the first chance the Jews had to return to their land after the Ottoman Empire fell.
Sorry they had to wait 2000 years before they had to opportunity to get their home back....but they never gave up trying.
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#7. threnodio wrote:
"..a much more jaundiced view of the real world"
I ask is it better to be a conciliator or a warmonger? Whilst injustice abounds all around us amplifying it seldom results in any from of eventual harmony. A pragmatic calming is needed, nay required, when the playground bullies set to. This does not imply weakness, but a sanguine appreciation of the situation.
MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) may, for a short time, keep the peace, but there is always a great risk that the threat is carried out at sometime if not now, then later. The key to a successful transition from armed mutual slaughter is a period of peace and then de-escalation.
Consider this: if the Palestinians who presently live out their lives under very harsh and oppressive conditions were as well armed as the Israelis, would the probability not be that neither side would dare to attack the other and peace would prevail. The imbalance of military power can be seen as a major contributor to the instability of the whole region. A nuclear armed Israel is up against a reasonably well organised group of people whose philosophy of martyrdom lets them fight against impossible odds.
The situation needs de-escalating and the UN resolution is a signpost along the way, it is just a pity that the USA, Israel's paymaster, still wants war in the region - although I am unable to understand what purpose it is trying to achieve by doing so. Can anybody explain how supporting the continuation of war in the area is of benefit to the USA? If it is not, why are they not striving harder to be conciliators?
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#11 - John_from_Hendon
I suspect that this is down to the entirely disproportionate influence of the Jewish lobby in American politics and has little to do with the reality in the region. Add to that the persistent image across the American political spectrum of Israel as 'an important ally in the war on terrorism' and you have the environment in which this skewed view of the world can flourish.
Having said that, Hamas have also to be realistic. Only when the IRA agreed to end the armed struggle and put weaponry beyond reach was anyone prepared to engage with them. Sinn Fein is now part of the solution rather than part of the problem. The peace dividend has been considerable. The prospect of some level of economic prosperity in return for a cessation of hostilities ought to be tempting. As I said before, money speaks louder than gunfire.
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#11 - John_from_Hendon
By way of an afterthought, this could be the real issue with Darfur. Sooner or later, the world is going to wake up to the fact that the situation in the Middle East cannot continue. There is too much at stake and if it takes a lot of money to fix, it will be found.
By contrast, what is in it for the rest of the world to fix the Darfur problem? Nothing. So the humanitarian crisis drags on and on. Appealing to the better nature of humanity ought, on the face of it, be enough to galvanise them into action. Sadly, this is not the case, hence my jaundiced view.
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threnodio, it always comes down to that, hatred for Israel, blame for America, insistance that it is American Jews who control America's foreign policy. All you left out is the last part of the usual lie that claims Jews control the American media. Did you forget that or were you coming to it? I've saved you the trouble.
John_From_Hendon, your philophy seems to have much in common with Neville Chamberlin's. Had the Americans not saved Britain with arms and not words, Britain will still be a slave of the German Nazi Reich today. Your theory has been trashed by history. Fortunately for the Israelis, they learned the lessons of history and may yet avoid repeating them. As for Palestinians being comparably armed to Israelis, this is why they must be isolated in quarantine and why if Israel wants to survive, it will have to launch a pre-emptive nuclear strike on Iran before Iran develops a deliverable nuclear weapon. When you are fighting for survival, the concept of proportional response is a joke. That is why Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki were justified. That is why what is happening in Gaza is entirely justified. Bravo Israel, America supports you...at least today. As for Obama, we'll see but if he doesn't, it will be the worst political blunder of his life.
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#14 MarcusAureliusII wrote:
... Your theory has been trashed by history...
Heavens, you do spout more than you usual level of rubbish and baseless bile! Do you read and consider the implications of your writings? You epitomise the problem.
May I remind you that all wars come to an end, or perhaps your evil philosophy considers that war should be the natural course of things for ever. Jf so I can not think of any move repellent and evil views than yours.
I remind you that you have previously stated that Human Rights should only apply to Americans and that all other peoples are inferior, a philosophy indistinguishable from that of the National Socialist Party.
I further remind you that even your country eventually joined in the battle to fight against the very philosophy that you now advocate. Or perhaps you consider that your country was on the wrong side in 1941, and if so there quite reluctantly I and drawn to the conclusion that there is no point in debating with you I am afraid.
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#14 - MarcusAureliusII
Your problem is one of simplification. I stated that I believed there is evidence that the Jewish lobby is too influential in the direction of US foreign policy. Nowhere have I suggested a hatred of Israel. As for remarks to John-of-Hendon, you might do well to reflect that , if you had turned up in 1939 instead of waiting till Pearl Harbour, Dresend, Hiroshima and Nagasaki would not have been necessary.
The selective application of democratic principles to suit the pragmatic circumstances may be in the national interest but it does not entitle you to occupy the moral high ground. You forget the removal of Allende in Chile and Iran Contra, you persist in blockading Cuba long after the the reasons have gone, you do nothing about the Horn of Africa, you detain terror suspects without trial, you will not accept the jurisdiction of ICJ, you will not forswear the use of landmines or cluster bombs. Tell me all of this makes sense from a pragmatic standpoint and I will completely accept that. But please don't give me all that c**p about doing it for the defence of the free world.
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thenodio, I do not have a problem. My home, my town, my country is not being bombed right now. And I expect my democratically elected government to keep it that way no matter what it has to do. My safety and that of my fellow Americans is my number one concern. All other considerations including blather about the moral high ground mean nothing to me. You and others can spout all you want to but when it comes to the American government making foreign policy, that is the way it is and that is the way it will stay. If your government does less, well that is your problem but then I have said many times that IMO the UK is not a democracy. We have lots of lobbies in the US, each with their own agenda. The Arabs have a lobby too. But their point of view is inconsistent with the views of the overwhelming majority of Americans.
John_From_Hendon
I hope the war on terror of which the Arab Israeli conflict is just one battlefront comes to an end with our side....I mean my side victorious. In the current battle, the bad guys are losing. How convenient for Israel that Hamas continues firing rockets on Israeli civilians. Not that the moral high ground that threnodio thinks so precious matters. But that it occurs and that Israelis die reminds them that they are in a war for their survival in which many are against them...apparently including you and threnodio among others. Tsk, tsk. The Israelis say they are about to enter phase 3 of the battle. I wonder what that means. It doesn't sound good from the Pali point of view. Perhaps they should consider a cease fire after all. But Hamas is the democratically elected government in Gaza so the people living there have no one to really blame but themselves for what is happening to them. Funny, they don't seem to see it that way. I wonder why.
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More informed comment here than in 50,000 words from MAII.
Peace is with enemies
ed
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Ed, there were Jews complicit with the Nazi holocaust too, what does that prove? That some Jews are stupid or traitors? In a large enough sampling of a population, you're sure to find them. More of your usual trash.
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MAII,
O wad some powr the giftie gie us...Complain about this comment
"You ugly, creeping, blasted wonder,
Detested, shunned by saint and sinner"
America has been detested by the world since it revolted not only against Britain but against the popular notion of absolute monarchy and colonial empire. It was the first. Anti-Americanism has been around as long as America has. Hatred of Jews has been around a lot longer. It's part of life. In the Arab world and in Europe.
"O would some Power the gift to give us
To see ourselves as others see us!"
Who cares? Why should Americans or Israelis care what the rest of the world thinks anyway? What has it ever done for either country? Hatred and jealousy is all we usually see. Europeans on the other hand don't like it when even one American, this one tells them what he thinks of their whole stinking civilization and what they can do with it.
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#17 - MarcusAureliusII
Then we agree. I did not suggest that you are wrong - although I do not happen to agree - merely that your position is unsustainable when you seek to justify it in terms of moral superiority.
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#21 - MarcusAureliusII
You may be astonished to learn that the vast majority of us don't give a flying fig what you think we should do with our stinking civilisation. At least we have one.
Now can we please stop hurling abuse at each other and talk sense?
It is entirely wrong of you to suggest that simply disagreeing with you puts us in the legions of American or Israeli haters. Nothing could be further from the truth. What I do hate is blind prejudice and, having read many of your well informed and well argued posts on other topics, it saddens me when you are reduced to it.
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threnodio, the only immorality I can think of is for my government to put anything except my safety at the top of its list of priorities and the same for the Israeli government with respect to the safety of its own citizens. Finally they seem to be taking care of business.
Just think of America's conquest of the world as the revenge of the scourge of past civilizations especially in Europe on the progeny of those who detested, rejected, and expelled them, Jews prominent among them. But now this also includes blacks kidnapped by Europeans from Africa to work as slaves, Asians, and Latin Americans, the descendants of the Inca, Aztec, and Mayan civilizations destroyed by Spain. This recent worldwide economic crisis exported by the American financial industry is just the icing on the cake. All unintended of course.
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threnodio #23
"You may be astonished to learn that the vast majority of us don't give a flying fig what you think we should do with our stinking civilisation. At least we have one."
Yes threnodio, I know you have a stinking civilization, I said that already but I wouldn't be proud of it if I were you. Most Europeans have looked with disdain on America since its founding. Anti-Americanism is nothing new. There is every reason why America should pursue its own interests and disregard the consequences for Europe. I see the common cause between the two rapidly diverging. America has carried Europe long enough. For example, NATO is a sham. Europe is not pulling anything like its weight in Afghanistan in this fraud of a mutual defense treaty. It finds every excuse why it can't. Time for the US to pull out of that and the worthless disUnited Nations IMO. Also the WTO. I'd let Europe face Russia on its own. Militant Arab terrorists too. They are a lot closer to you than they are to us and Europe is a soft target for them. We should keep GITMO and the Patriot Act. They are working just fine even if people don't like to think about them.
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#25 - MarcusAureliusII
Well you must make up your mind Marcus. Either you wish to disengage from us completely, in which case you won't need GITMO because you will have no right to detain anyone outside US territory, or you do need it, in which case you will no doubt continue to render them extraordinarily with the contrivance of the friends you claim you no longer want.
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threnodio, you left out one other possibility, arm twisting. Never underestimate the power of the US government. It has carrots and sticks like you wouldn't believe. Just ask Lloyds TSB bank. Yesterday they paid out 350 million in fines to stop the investigation of their criminal activities, that is criminal under American law of doing business with Lybia, Syria, and Iran. I think they got off light. The fine could have been much heavier and there could have been jail time for the execs. That's what I would have pushed for.
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How interested is the American Media? Not very, it seems.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Dorood/Peace
Namaste -ed
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#27 - MarcusAureliusII
If it was an American arm of the bank and the offenses were committed with US jurisdiction, yes they got off very lightly. I don't quite see how a bank can break federal law when it is not acting within jurisdiction.
Perhaps the main reason there was no jail time is that, since the bail out, the government has owned a big chunk of Lloyds TSB. You were not thinking of trying to extradite a government minister, were you?
Where does arm twisting end and extortion begin, I wonder:-)
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#28 - Ed Iglehart
Ed,
I see from CNN that the Israelis are claiming it was a rogue shell that hit the school.
When it comes to PR, I guess this a case of 'if at first you don't succeed . . . '
Eventually if they try hard enough, they may come up with something someone believes.
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Threnodio,
Haven't you heard? American Jurisdiction is Global and Superior (and unanswerable) to the World Court as well.;-)
ed
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Threnodio,
Aye, that'll be righted
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One thing I don't understand is why the Israelis, given the amount of funding they have access to, couldn't at least have given some form of 'bounty' to people being booted out of their homes. Okay, they would still have lost their homes, and maybe their treasures and items of sentimental value - but they would have a nest egg to start a life elsewhere.
Or would that 'compensation' have been to admit that they did have some legitimate claim to the land, or the time delay involved caused risk to the Israeli Army claiming back the land for the 'Occupied Territories' ??
Couldn't they at least invest some money in the infrastructure, education health and housing of the Palestinians ? That seems far more effective - 'love bombing' instead of 'mortar bombing' - or am I again being too simplistic in this regard ??
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Also, since you are trying [as the BBC] very hard to be even-handed, which is difficult in the contest of middle-east politics, what about covering the following, obviously with the 'contra-arguments' represented by people with opposing views...
Interviewing Yonatan Shapira
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/10/gaza-israel-media
Discussion on what constitutes balanced 'even-handed' and impartial coverage when, in the context of a 'general election' one has to give equal time to all 'main parties' even though the third party clearly has fewer voters, and thus less democratic support, than the others.
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Your Lordship,
Perhaps you are being too simplistic (and far too optimistic). The dispossessed very often had little to document their property and possessions (some indeed do, and treasure their deeds and housekeys to this day). Most fled with only what they could carry and in the expectation of return. I believe there is some indication that Israel would be willing to compensate in return for abandonment of right of return (in the Oslo process), but this is generally unacceptable to those who have been dispossessed so long. An interesting summary of the scope of the problem is here, including the various textual information thereon.
I agree that love is better than bombs and bullets. Background material
Peace
ed
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And have you seen this?
God(s) help us! Has anyone looked at a topographical map?
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#36 - Ed Iglehart
Granted it is a terrifying scenario but - a). Will Ahmadinajad survive the forthcoming presidential election (bearing in mind that the supreme Ayatollah has issued a fatwa against nuclear weapons), b). Given the small size of Israel as a target, could Iran take the risk of the backlash for inevitable collateral damage to her neighbours, c). would the Iranians embark on this course in the knowledge that the American response would be final and devastating?
Far more disturbing is the 'bomb in a suitcase' scenario since a preemptive Israeli strike would almost certainly prompt it's use (assuming it is not an empty threat).
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Ahmadinejad is relatively unimportant except as a target for Israeli demonisation. The frightening thing is th demonstrated tendency to pre-emption on the part of Israel and the bland assumption that "surgical" air strikes can accomplish the task. The idea of actually engaging Iran by invasion or otherwise (except in dialogue) is absurd and dangerous.
At least thrre times the size of Iraq, bigger and more mountainous than Afghanistan, well-armed and oil-rich....
God(s) help us.
ed
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Buy their gas (give Gasprom something to think about), pipe it on from Turkey, tade petroleum products for crude and stop trading threats. As I said before, if all else fails, try money:-)
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Stand back for a moment and consider 'when' the Israelis chose to go to war against Hamas?
It is quite reasonable to consider that they could have chosen to launch their attack at almost any time. So why go now? Is it not fairly obvious that the timing has a great deal more to do with the end of George Bush than the actions of Hamas?
It is reasonably well established that the neocons in the USA had an existing agenda even before George Bush came to power and that they have, by and large, carried out their agenda.
So far as it is possible to judge Barack Obama's intentions, it would seem, along with the pledge to dismantle Guantanamo Bay within his first 100 days, his regime will be far less able to be manipulated by the neocons to wage foreign wars.
The question I would like considered, if not answered, is what role did the neocons in the USA have in the timing of the Israeli attack on Hamas? Do the give a nod and a wink to Israel?
I get 182 hits for "neocons Hamas Israel" in Google news - I guess that this will rise - other people are also speculating along the same lines as I am suggesting. Has anyone any 'evidence' - either way?
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#40 - John_from_Hendon
Remind me if you were involved in two very heated debates a couple of months back about holocaust denial, both on Mark Mardell' and Paul Mason's blogs. If so, amongst all the antisemitic claptrap, there were a couple of useful references about various neo-con groupings. If so, I will see if I can revisit them and what I can find.
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Robin ref your piece "Gaza Points of View."
I believe your interpretation of the respective views is fairly accurate. It also demonstrates that, left to their own devices, they will never come to an agreement. An arbiter is called for, who either facilitates constructive talks or imposes and enforces a solution - coupled with rewards and penalties for compliance or breaches respectively.
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#41. threnodio wrote:
Remind me if you were involved in two very heated debates a couple of months back about holocaust denial.
No, I wasn't (I've checked my contributions back to last September)
I am concerned with the present day and the possible/probable involvement of the neocons in the USA with promoting wars. By all means find an open and honest neocon (if that is possible?) and ask for their response.
ps: the holocaust exited, as did/do the various genocides before and since.
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#43 - John_from_Hendon
Depending on who you believe, it is very difficult in my view to identify precisely who these neocons are, still less their influence on the administration. While there are those who clearly identify themselves as such, there are also many who sit on the right of the Republican party and are plainly off that mind set while rejecting the label. The Jewish lobby is united only in that affiliation ranging in other ways across the whole spectrum of opinion from neocon to left wing neosocialist.
I am quite clear that an operation on the scale undertaken by Israel cannot be set up overnight. It takes weeks, possibly months of preparation including preparations on the ground which will signal the intention. So the idea that it was a complete surprise is absurd. Only the timing was left open. The Americans would clearly have known about it in advance and presumably have given the nod. Whether there is active participation of neocon elements at the State Department, I have no idea but my guess is that the decision not to oppose the Israeli action was taken for pragmatic reasons within the mainstream of the administration.
There may have been some hope in Jerusalem that making it coincide with the holiday season might delay reaction (Georgia/Beijing Olympics?) but that is another question.
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Some pertinent observations
on the matter in hand from one of the more articulate members of the Squirrel Party
;-)
ed
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To 44
I agree with you and it is also difficult to pin down the Zionists because many of them are ashamed to admit it. My guess is that the Zionists and the Neo-cons are one and the same.
However, it is not difficult t see their affect on the administration, because largely they ARE the administration. Bush is probably not a Neo-con, he is merely their poodle, a title once given to Tony Blair. In fact Blair wasn't even a poodle, he was just the rag doll that the poodle stuffed!
There is no doubt in my mind that the illegal invasion of Iraq was not about oil, it was implemented at the behest of the Zionists in Israel by the Zionist/Neo-cons in the US, solely because Saddam was supporting the families of the Palestinian suicide bombers.
The Israeli Zionists are now able to bomb and slaughter Palestians in Gaza at will because the US Zionists are collaborating with them.
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SeeHEREfor a critique of the Ziocons and how they have terrorised Gaza.
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#46 - Jackturk
I think you are making this more complicated than it is. Only about 50% of Americans have passports which suggests that only have of them are remotely interested in going to Mexico or Canada, still less to the centres of events. There is a great deal of 'leaving foreign policy to the experts' in the mentality. Combine that with 'my country right or wrong' when they actually go to war and they will happily be led by the nose. Yes there are vociferous groups on both sides who argue articulately and from well informed positions on foreign policy but it is, for the most part, driven by professionals and academics. The vast majority either don't know or don't care.
I think you also have to be very careful about cross referencing Zionism with the neocon tendency or confusing Zionism, which is political, with Judaism, which is about faith. It is perfectly possible to be any of the above without being any of the others. I would tread lightly when using terms like 'ziocons' if I were you.
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To 48
I agree with your first point. In recent months, especially leading up to the election of Barack Obama, I have been following US politics quite closely. However, I don't see any complication, the Neocons have or had simply indoctrinated many simple minded Americans - no insult intended.
I am also well aware of the different strands of Zionism. I have copied below one of my earlier blogs which I posted in response to a similar point to yours.
Over the years, Zionism has had many strands, religious and secular but not all Zionists are Jews and not all Jews are Zionists. However, Zionists don't believe that Palestine is for everyone, they believe it is for the Jews, therefore Zionism does have a religious significance. Also, most Jews believe that they are God's chosen people (and I'm not criticising them for that) therefore it follows that the Zionists amongst them also believe that Palestine is their God-given land.
My substantive point is that Zionists do not believe that they should share Palestine with anyone.
I still say that many of the so called Neo-cons are also Ziocons.
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#49 - Jackturk
It's a fair point. The problem is that using religious dogma to justify a political position is skewing the issue. It is no different from Jihad, for instance, whereby politically motivated people use theology to promote secular objectives. Even Irish Republicanism only really began to make sense when it stood back from the promotion of a Catholic agenda. I grant that it is extremely difficult to separate the religious and the secular, particulary in the minds of the politically immoderate but we really do have to try if we are going to get a meaningful dialogue.
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To 50
I think that we are in danger of going 'off topic' by straying into theoretical discussions, I have already been penalised (26 times) by the mod's on the 'Editors' blog for that ;-)
My over all point is that it is Zionist aspirations that have caused the present carnage in Gaza and until Zionism is rejected or sidelined by those in power, nothing will change. Indeed it is the greatest threat to world peace, simply because at the moment they have more power and influence than the Islamists.
It is therefore up to the USA, the only people who can influence Israel, to bring that influence to bear and negotiate a settlement based upon the 1967 borders. There is simply no alternative other than continued violence.
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Polls show that not only do almost all Americans support the state of Israel, they support what Israel has been doing in Gaza. I think the number is over 80 percent. The US will not likely be changing its position anytime soon. Either those who oppose America's support of Israel had better get used to it or suffer the consequences. We'd abandon the UK before we'd abandon Israel. In fact that doesn't sound like a half bad idea to me.
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To 52
It depends what you mean by 'support Israel'. I condemn Zionism but I support Israel's right to exist peacefully, which will not occur whilst Zionists hold sway.
You may also be interested in a J Street poll carried out in June which somewhat dents your arguments. The poll was carred out amongst American Jews and 86% said that they would accept America disagreeing with both Israel and the Arabs to obtain a peace settlement.
Would you support or oppose the United States playing an active role in helping the parties to resolve the Arab-Israeli conflict if it meant the United States publicly stating its disagreements with both the Israelis and the Arabs?
Strongly support 41
Somewhat support 45
Somewhat oppose 11
Strongly oppose 3
Total Support 86
Total Oppose 14
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J street poll? Don't make me laugh. Besides, American Jews are notoriously liberal. Their views are not necessarily representative of the majority which is far more conservative on average. Why didn't you try Zogby? Larger sample more probably but run by an Arab American. When you want given results from a poll, you can skew it that way by how you construct the questions. Gallop is the most respected large poll in America. What are their results? I think about 80% support Israel's actions in Gaza right now. They consider how they would feel if a foreign country were shooting rockets at them. Even Obama said he would do anything to stop someone shooting rockets at his daughters during his visit to Israel last summer. We'll see once he takes office next week if he's as good as his word.
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To 54
You obviously don't like the results of the poll therefore you denigrate it and the participants.
I was delighted that you described American Jews as 'liberal' I take that to mean 'sensible'.
Like many Americans, you seem to see issues in black and white, viewed through a conduit of anger.
At the moment, there is no doubt that in general, America is a belligerent nation which sees force as the solution to many problems. Hence the reason for many Americans supporting the criminal activities of the IDF in Gaza.
In the run up to the American elections, I could sense that there was a welcome change taking place in the USA as the 'red necks' were being marginalised. Hopefully Barack Obama can harness it for the sake of America and the good of the world.
I will leave the floor to you, I'm away, please remember to stay 'on topic'.
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Jackturk;
"I was delighted that you described American Jews as 'liberal' I take that to mean 'sensible'."
I take it to mean stupid.
"At the moment, there is no doubt that in general, America is a belligerent nation which sees force as the solution to many problems."
It worked in World War II or you would be eating sauerkraut every night and zig heiling some Gestapo thug at every corner.
"In the run up to the American elections, I could sense that there was a welcome change taking place in the USA as the 'red necks' were being marginalised."
Why not wait and see what happens. Obama has already pulled way back from his position on Iraq. He's almost in line with Bush now. That's become a non issue. By the time he takes office the IDF may be out of Gaza and the whole thing may be over. Israel's timing could hardly have been better.
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To 56
MarcusAureliusII wrote:
Jackturk;
"I was delighted that you described American Jews as 'liberal' I take that to mean 'sensible'."
I take it to mean stupid.
Noted, unlike you though!
"At the moment, there is no doubt that in general, America is a belligerent nation which sees force as the solution to many problems."
It worked in World War II or you would be eating sauerkraut every night and zig heiling some Gestapo thug at every corner.
A typically dumb "One size fits all" answer. The thugs at the moment are those slaughtering Gazans
"In the run up to the American elections, I could sense that there was a welcome change taking place in the USA as the 'red necks' were being marginalised."
Why not wait and see what happens. Obama has already pulled way back from his position on Iraq. He's almost in line with Bush now. That's become a non issue. By the time he takes office the IDF may be out of Gaza and the whole thing may be over. Israel's timing could hardly have been better.
You could be right, Obama could turn out to be a phoney just like Tony Blair
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Some information which you will not see in the main stream media to explain how Israel is getting away with war crimes in Gaza:-
See HERE
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Jack,
Thanks for the compliment on the "topic troll" side, and thanks for the above. Blair certainly kept his head down as the present viciousness (months in the planning) emerged, and then suggested that the solution was simple - just make the seige more watertight by closing off the tunnels Gah!
A melancholy blast from the past
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
Namaste -ed
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To 59
You're welcome, but not to give you all the praise I also recommended 'cdn4peace' in my next contribution which was predictably bombed by the mod's (who are the the God's) ;-)
Part two of the Media Lens piece has just been released and will be archived HERE
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Jackturk
In all the excitement I forgot about MediaLens. Thanks for the link. Good man.
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I haven't heard much from Hamas lately about how they are going to destroy Israel. All I hear now is that they will accept any cease fire that meets their demands. Scared for their lives, they are in hiding. They talked big when they weren't being blasted but now that they've picked a fight to annihilate someone much bigger and stronger than they are and getting their noses bloodied, they sing a different tune. Anyone who thinks the Israelis are targeting civilians as a matter of policy has no concept of what could have happened instead. If they really wanted to kill Palestinian civilians or just didn't care at all, they'd all be dead long ago.
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To 62
Anyone who DOESN'T think the IDF are targeting civilians purposely is either very badly informed or a Zionist.
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To 61
Thanks DC.
HERE is something else which may interest you. After clicking, scan down the page and look for the box with the videos and click on the icon of Ehud Olmert.
If you like the site, you can watch it live every evening.
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Jack,
I am neither of these things yet I do not believe the IDF are PURPOSEFULLY targeting civilians. Would you care to explain what aims Israel would hope to achieve by deliberately bombing civilians? Obviously, the aim is not to kill all of the Palestinians because Israel has had the means to do it for long time, yet it has not been done. So the reason must be something else, do tell us.
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To 65
I have answered these questions before and I could have referred you to them if the BBC had not deleted my blogs on another page.
There are many reasons, not least the actual actions on the ground and the admission on BBC TV by Meir Shitreet, an Israeli minister, who said that even if the IDF had known that children were in the UN building the IDF would have still have shelled it if gunfire had come from that direction.
This will give you some insight into IDF thinking:-
The late Jewish professor Israel Shahak, a survivor of Belsen and a strong critic of Zionism, wrote a book, entitled "Jewish History, Jewish Religion" in which he mentions the following advice to Israeli soldiers by the then Israeli army chief chaplain, Colonel Rabbi Avidan:-
"When our forces come across civilians during a war or in hot pursuit or in a raid, so long as there is no certainty that those civilians are incapable of harming our forces, then according to the Halakhah they may and even should be killed. In war, when our forces storm the enemy, they are allowed and even enjoined by the Halakhah to kill even good civilians, that is, civilians who are ostensibly good."
If you want to see the opinion of an Israeli who is against his government's actions, click HERE
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To 65
I forgot to mention that the IDF did know that women and children were in that building because they were told so by the UN who even gave them the co-ordinates.
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Jackturk
"Anyone who DOESN'T think the IDF are targeting civilians purposely is either very badly informed or a Zionist."
Then how do you explain the fact that so few of them have died? Only around 3 or 4 hundred in 18 days. Can't the mighty Israeli IDF do a lot better against unarmed civilians right next door to them than that? Just how incompetent and inefficient do you think they are?
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To 68
The IDF may be killers but they're not stupid. Their aim is to terrorise the population so that they will turn against Hamas. They know that even the US will turn against them if civilian deaths were too high.
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To 68
By the way, your casual dismissal of the deaths of 3 or 4 hundred innocent people is noted.
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Jackturk
"They know that even the US will turn against them if civilian deaths were too high."
After Hiroshima and Nagasaki are you kidding?
"By the way, your casual dismissal of the deaths of 3 or 4 hundred innocent people is noted."
Compare that to all the innocent Israeli civilians who died as the result of suicide bombings and other acts of real terrorism the Palestinians dismiss as "resistance" and it's a piddling. It's far less than Hamas should have expected by not heeding Israel's endless warnings to stop the rockets being fired at them. They're just lucky I'm not in charge. I expect the rocket firings to stop one way or another. During Obama's visit to Israel, he said if rockets were being fired at his daughters, he'd do whatever it took to make them stop. I expect him to be true to his word and support Israel in its efforts. If he doesn't, he will be making one huge political mistake in American politics.
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To 71
They're just lucky I'm not in charge
We're all lucky you're not in charge!
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News indeed! What a difference a word can make!
Here's hoping!Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
Namaste -ed
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Aurelianus,
Do the numbers:Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
Namaste -ed
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Thanks for proving my point Iggy. We're comparing how many Israeli civilians were killed by Palestinian terrorists with how many Palestinian civilians were killed by the IDF in the last 18 days or have you forgotten that already. And as you make clear, the 300 or 400 Palis killed in the last three weeks is far fewer than the thousand or so in your posting...even if they are true.
I think you read far too much into Senator Clinton's statement. BBC habitually does the same and then hypothesizes on it. It's an irritating distraction from the news they habitually make.
Jackturk, genocide as the ultimate defense against the threat of annihilation or enslavement has been American and NATO policy for well over 50 years. What do you think 20,000 hydrogen bombs aimed at one third of the world's population in the Sino-Soviet empire was about? It's just that nobody ever wanted to talk about it that way. BTW, even though there is no more USSR and China is not only an important American trading partner with the US, we still have 10,000 hydrogen bombs and the Russians still have about 15,000 all aimed at each other.
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Full of rectumtude, as usual.
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#75 Marcus
Not only are you going digressing off topic you are also digressing from reality!
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#73 Ed
Let's hope so. Let's hope Obama stops funding the Israeli war machine next!
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dceilar
Which facts do you challenge? Maybe you are to young to remember the Cold War. You know, the one you must have read about where the world could have ended at any moment. Some of us are old enough to remember though. We lived through it although there were times we didn't think anyone would.
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Dceilar and all,
This may (or may not) have an effectFailing that, try this
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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To 75
Jackturk, genocide....etc.
And how many hydrogen bombs do the Palestinians have?
You're loosing it!
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To 75
Jackturk, genocide....etc.
And how many hydrogen bombs do the Palestinians have?
You're loosing it!
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*losing
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Long lost
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"Neocons RIP"
Seems the BBC has (2 days later that I wrote about them) written up the neocons obit.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7825039.stm
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#79 - MarcusAureliusII
I am old enough to remember it Marcus. The theory of mutually assured destruction (MAD) relied on two things and two things only:
1. That both sides had the demonstrable capability to carry out it's threats and -
2. That neither side were so totally insane as to do so.
Mercifully, both turned out to be correct. It does not mean that it was sound policy and neither does it mean that, had some maniac gotten his hands on the red button, it would not have turned out horribly differently. In fact, the development of these technologies may have suited the great powers quite well but the legacy is an uncertain world in which the world can be terrorised by groups of fruitcakes who have inherited the know how and accessed the means.
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Out and about...
;-)ed
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#74 and 82
Ed and Jack,
The Palestinians have killed less Israelis and they do not have hydrogen bombs, but that is not because they are not trying!
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and far fewer childrenComplain about this comment
To 88
To an extent I agree but listen to people like Sir Jeremy Greenstock who say that the Palestinians are defending themselves against aggressive Israeli policies.
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"According to the Israeli military's count on December 27th, 3,000 rockets hit Israel since the beginning of the year. A total of eight people were killed by Qassam rocket, Grad rocket and mortar attacks on Israel in 2008". (Source HERE)
Eight fatalities in a full year
Isn't it about time for people to stop being emotional and start thinking about what constitutes a proportional response?
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#89
Ed,
What you say is true. The following is also true: palestinians children have killed far more Israelis than Israeli children- Palestinians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict
Let us leave this blame-game. Both sides equally wrong in this conflict.
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Not equally.
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To 92
"Let us leave this blame-game. Both sides equally wrong in this conflict."
Totally wrong, this is the myth that those who tacitly support the Israeli actions or those who sit on the fence like to peddle.
The Israelis, driven by Zionist fervour, are the aggressors and their current inhuman activities go a long way to demonstrate it.
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#93 and 94
Obviously you prefer to continue blaming one side and supporting the other. Good luck sorting out the mess Palestine is.
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To 95
Ignoring the culprits wont make them go away any sooner. It leaves a bigger 'mess' to sort out eventually.
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Isenhorn, sorry to ask you this but, how many children and babies have the mighty IDF murdered this year? 300?
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Senator Hillary Clinton said today in her testimony before a Senate hearing on her nomination for Secretary of State that IF the US was going to talk to Hamas, there would be at least three pre-conditions. They would have to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, they would have to renounce violence, and they would have to accept their obligation to comply with all previous agreements signed by the PA. They have already rejected these three conditions many times. Looks like the US won't be talking to the Hamas terrorists anytime soon.
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dceilar
"how many children and babies have the mighty IDF murdered this year? 300?"
The correct answer is none. Under American law and that of most other civilized societies, in order to be guilty of murder you have to have criminal intent. That is the acid test. As I have proven above from the relatively low number of civilian casualties given the scope of the military action, the IDF's capabilities, and the time of its activities, none of the civilian deaths in Gaza was a murder.
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#99 Marcu
The targeting of children and babies is a war crime. That's enough 'criminal intent' for me!
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To 99
Marcus, I'm afraid that you have given yourself too much credit, you have proven nothing.
See my post 66.
Many learned observers have said that Israel has committed war crimes.
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Jackturk
However "learned" these observers are, that doesn't keep their views from being prejudiced or just plain wrong.
dcelier, you don't get it. The point is that had the Israelis been targeting children the way Hamas and the other Arab terrorists do, there would be far more of them dead right now. The IDF prefers to let them grow up first and then become terrorists before it targets them. It's more challenging that way.
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To 102
You don't get away that easily, I could say they were neutral but you would just say that anyone who criticises Israel is biased.
The points I made in 66 are from Israelis damning themselves.
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Jackturk
When someone is being attacked and an observer denies that he has a right to defend himself and fight back until the attacker calls off his attack, that is not neutral and that is not "learned." That is just pure plain unadulterated anti-semitic hatred of Jews as in your case. And in dceilar's.
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To 104
If you'd care to read my contributions, you'd know that I haven't the slightest hatred of Jews or Israelis in fact I admire them for their culture and learning.
But trust you, when your arguments are exhausted, to fall back on the old 'antisemitism' charge.
My 'hatred' as you put it is for the Zionist ideology that drives some people to a blind disregard of other peoples rights in order to satisfy their own warped aspirations.
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To 104
And Marcus, I even admire some Americans!
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#99 - MarcusAureliusII
Since neither the USA nor Israel accepts the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court, I guess you have no other choice than to fall back on your own laws, however flawed they may be.
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To 104
Marcus, I think you've had enough punishment for one day, I'm away early tonight.
Remember 66!
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I see Jackturk, Jews are all right just as long as they don't have their own country. You don't even know you are an anti-semite. Frankly if it were up to me, America would still be at war...with Great Britain. Just because the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812 are over was no reason to end hostilities. I think the peace treaties were hasty and premature. Time to rethink them.
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#109 - MarcusAureliusII
Oh, give it a rest Marcus. You forget some of us have read you with your sensible head on! You know you don't mean it. You don't even know if he is British.
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threnodious...I know he is. I can just smell it :-)
Once upon a time, I considered hearing a British accent novel and quaint. Now it's getting on my nerves. Sometimes I think half of Britain has migrated to the US. I know you guys can't help it but just the same..... I also think at any given time, much of BBC's staff is here...looking for jobs. Katy Kay has nearly found one. On NPR or PBS. Or NBC. I wonder which one she'll jump ship for.
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Robin Lustig,
Spot the glaring error in the attitude of your Israeli:
How many times they have tried to send suicide bombers into Israel to kill us in our shopping malls and our bus stations?
No Israeli would ever think of Hamas only as trying to dispatch suicide bombers into Israel when so many Hamas terrorists have succeeded in getting through to massacre Israeli civilians.
This is typical BBC. Even in constructing a picture of how an Israeli might view Hamas you still manage to minimise Hamas terrorism.
51. Jackturk wrote:
My over all point is that it is Zionist aspirations that have caused the present carnage in Gaza and until Zionism is rejected or sidelined by those in power, nothing will change. Indeed it is the greatest threat to world peace, simply because at the moment they have more power and influence than the Islamists.
You imagine you have a point. But you forget that Ariel Sharon, the man the left love to hate and the original engineer of the settlements, was also the man who was instrumental in Israel's disengagement from Gaza. So this 'Zionist' fell in line with demands of the 'international community' and Israel withdrew from every square inch of Gaza, only to be met with the immediate resumption of rocket fire into undisputed Israel, i.e. an area of Israel without settlements and within pre-1967 borders.
And before you respond with the usual rubbish about Israel's control of the air space and coast, Gazans had no intention of entering into any negotiations on these issues and proved it by simply continuing with the single-minded killing and attempted killing of Jews. Without terror emanating from Gaza, there would be no need for Israel to control it.
It is high time the Palestinians took responsibility for at least someof their own actions.
You also forget (if you ever knew) that Hamas is a radical Islamist organisation committed to the ascendancy of Islam through terror. And if that means holding their own civilians hostage so that they will be killed during the fighting, they'll do it - as long as there is the prospect of Israel losing the PR war as a result.
63. Jackturk wrote:
To 62
Anyone who DOESN'T think the IDF are targeting civilians purposely is either very badly informed or a Zionist.
The IDF, obviously, is targeting the sources of fire against Israel, while Hamas is committing a war crime by attacking from the cover of civilians - or it would be a war crime if Palestine were a country. I guess it'll just have to be called terrorism - in this case against Hamas' own people. It's quite revealing that you turn a blind eye to that fact.
A simple illustration might help clarify the matter:
If a criminal takes a hostage and fires at a police officer from behind the hostage, who is then killed when the officer fires back, the criminal, and not the officer, is guilty of the death of the hostage.
Likewise, Hamas terrorists are primarily responsible for the deaths of civilians in Gaza. You should try not to let your hatred of Israel cloud your logic.
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Chosen Brothers - March Down Babylon
http://www.dubvendor.co.uk/chosen-brothers---march-down-babylon--prince-douglas---dub--itopia---why-wackies-10-6185-p.asp
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#112 TrueToo: Thank you for being one of the very few people in this lengthy thread to comment on what I actually wrote. But I fear you have misread my “Israeli” comment: the sentence “How many times they have tried to send suicide bombers into Israel to kill us in our shopping malls and our bus stations?” followed on from – and was a continuation of – the previous sentence, which includes the words “since we left Gaza?” I hoped the meaning was clear: that even though there have been no successful suicide attacks since the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza in 2005, most Israelis are convinced there must have been many unsuccessful attempts.
So it wasn’t a “glaring error” or “typical BBC” minimising Hamas terrorism, simply a sentence which you misread.
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... and my apologies for the bizarre punctuation in the above comment. Every query mark is meant to be a quotation mark. The joys of incompatible formatting ... !
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Robin Lustig,
Thanks for getting back to me on my comment. This has become quite a rare phenomenon among BBC editors on this blog. While I accept your explanation that you were not trying to minimise Hamas terror, I'm sure you can see how easy it would be to misread the meaning of the following passage, since it is not completely clear that the second sentence is conditioned by the first:
Do you know how many rockets they have fired at us since we left Gaza? How many times they have tried to send suicide bombers into Israel to kill us in our shopping malls and our bus stations?
But I take your point, so I apologise for misjudging you.
It's worth pointing out that Islamic Jihad has undertaken some suicide attacks since the withdrawal from Gaza and that the group is closely linked to Hamas, both having close connections to Iran. No doubt Islamic Jihad can act on its own, but there seems little doubt that the attacks are with the implicit approval of Hamas.
Yes, punctuation is a drag on these blogs. Especially the dash - which gets me again and again when I copy and paste to the blog. Turns the thing into a question mark.
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#115 Robin
#116 TT
Re: punctuation errors. I find using Windows Notepad (or other plain text based editor) is better. Then copy and paste it into the browser. I think it has something to do with HTML preferring to be written in plain text, and not in a word processor like Word for example.
Ed has a good link with some tips!
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Robin Lustig -
- and others who prefer to write posts in a text editor first -
You will find using a text editor which does not format the text and saves it to a .txt file will elimate some of these problems. In Windows, this is Notepad. I am not sure if it will deal with 'forbidden' characeters such as accented characters but the following test line may establish that. Sorroy for going wildly off topic but this is clearly frustrating some posters.
"Test - o,é,á,Ü,ö,%,$,£"
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OK - punctuation, percentage, quotations and dollar signs do work that way - accented characters do not. Hope this helps.
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#119 Threnodio
The pound sign does not work either. It's something to do with the character code number; in that HTML only goes up to a certain number. I'm sure Ed will explain it better than I.
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To 112
You imagine you have a point. But you forget that Ariel Sharon, the man the left love to hate and the original engineer of the settlements, was also the man who was instrumental in Israel's disengagement from Gaza. So this 'Zionist' fell in line with demands of the 'international community' and Israel withdrew from every square inch of Gaza
I most certainly do have point, Ariel Sharon, one of the worst of the Zionist thugs - remember Sabra and Shatila, remember the Qibya Massacre? - withdrew from the Gaza settlements for tactical reasons whilst setting up more settlements on the West Bank, or don't you recognise that they're all Palestinians?
A simple illustration might help clarify the matter
I don't need any of your 'simple' illustrations, just read and take note of my point no.66.
You should try not to let your hatred of Israel cloud your logic
Stop trying to justify your prejudices by accusing me of hating Israel, which if you'd bothered to read my posts you will know is untrue. I've already said it's the warped aspirations of Zionism I 'hate' not Israel or Jews and incidentally, many Jews also have a hatred of Zionism.
Most of the points that you and some others on here raise, are intended as a smoke screen to deflect attention from the horrors that Israel is now inflicting on the people of Gaza. We can see through it and you should be ashamed at any attempt to try and justify it.
You can respond with as much indignation as you want but it doesn't excuse the outrageous behaviour of a so called civilised democracy.
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Aurelianus,
Guilty as charged, then.Complain about this comment
#120 - dceilar
Thanks. I have been in touch with Ed. His advise on post html was welcome and useful (Thanks Ed). I use an central European keyboard so it can get complicated. Any way, it has nothing to do with Gaza and I don't want to upset everyone.
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Robin et al, Namaste
Regarding formatting, it's best of all to simply compose posts in the window provided. Alternatively, it seems notepad works well enough for users of windoze. Using Ubuntu/linux, I find its text editor (gedit) fine. Text copied in from other sites often produces substitution of the "query" (?) character for various things, including quotation (").
Some day, the BBC's software folk may clear the matter up, but, even on the various blogs of quite similar appearance, the source code (and behaviour) is markedly different....I use Firefox as a browser, and it provides spellchecking right here in the entry form as I type...(and in British English (or whatever I choose)
If your offline composing editor (notepad, gedit, wurd, etc.) has an 'edit prefrences' option, you may be able to set the character coding to match this software :iso-8859-1 or "utf-8" ....it may not help....
As noted above, some helpful hints are available (without any warranty, implied or explicit)
And, thanks very much for your efforts - Robin for the blog and the rest for your contributions, whether agreeable or not...
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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Jack,
Would you please stop refering to your post at #66. Obviously, when fighting an enemy which does not wear uniforms and who hides amongst civilians, the military resorts to 'shoot first, ask questions later'. This is not something only the IDF do, every self-respecting army does the same.
Your precious Palestinians are also guilty of targeting civilians-suicide-bombers deliberately target civilian areas such as restaurants or bus-stops. Their supporters even do that in countries that do not have anything to do with the conflict (vis. the attacks in Britain in 2005). As I have said before, putting the blame on only one side and ignoring the atrocities the other is committing will not solve anything.
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Ed -
Notepad allows you to save as unicode, unicode bigendian or UTF8 as well as ANSI but whether that affects what is copied to the clipboard, I doubt. Bigendian does save all my odd accents though. If you Google my username, you will find a blog link to contact if you wish.
Sorry, Mr Lustig, no more I promise. And I echo Ed's thanks.
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#125 - Isenhorn
". . . putting the blame on only one side and ignoring the atrocities the other is committing will not solve anything".
Neither will all this bloodshed - but is that going to stop them?
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To 125
We are having circular arguments, therefore I will say the same to you as I said to 'True Too'.
Please do not try to justify Israel's present murderous actions in Gaza by trying to obscure it.
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To 128
Strong words. Please follow your own advice with regards to the Palestinian actions.
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Just for fun, a validation check on this blog page
;-)
ed
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Advice from the above digression:
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Oh, and Robin, Namaste
Allow me to join True Too in the subgroup actually commenting on "what you wrote". I found your set of statements an excellent way of illustrating the "two narratives" nature of the problem. This is very clearly set out in the "Truth against Truth" document from Uri Avnery linked here. Due to the inadequacies of the blog software, I can't link to it directly because it's a pdf ;-(
Thanks again for all your output (I'm a late night Worldservice addict too)
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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To 129
"Strong words. Please follow your own advice with regards to the Palestinian actions".
If their actions ever approach the level of barbarity of the IDF I will.
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Hyena, come out come out wherever you are. Isn't it just like a coward to declare war on a nation, send out women and children as suicide bombers, to launch rockets, and throw rocks at tanks, and then when the going gets rough, does he lead the charge into battle to fight and maybe die like the martyr he'd have others be? No, he goes into hiding like the yellow bellied coward that he is. Just like Saddam Hussein did. Maybe the Israelis will find him in some spider hole the way they found Saddam Hussein. Here's a problem for the ICC, Israel delivering him to them for trial for crimes against humanity. Their failure to try and convict him would expose the whole system of so called international law as a poltical tool and nothing more. A pure sham.
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To 134
Convoluted clap-trap to obscure the IDF barbarity.
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Jackturk, I'd like to see if you'd show any signs of barbarity after someone was firing rockets at your house for years and your government hadn't done anything about it except talk. In a way, the Palestinians are lucky that the rocket that hit the school didn't land when it was full of children and a classroom full of Israeli kids got killed. Then they might really target civilians in abject rage. How long do you think it would be before casualties would be in the tens or hundreds of thousands if that's what they wanted?
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To 136
Marcus, you really must clear the red mist from your eyes.
The cease fire was working, the Hamas rockets had stopped, peace talks were taking place - then what happened?
Because the Zionists realised that they may have to compromise, they broke the cease fire on 4th Nov. and saw a window to launch an attack before Obama took over in the US.
It was Israel that put their population in danger again, not just my opinion, but that of many Israelis and Jews.
You keep on trying to justify the barbaric actions of the IDF but it is futile. Please go and haunt another blog somewhere else.
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137
Because the Zionists realised that they may have to compromise, they broke the cease fire on 4th Nov. and saw a window to launch an attack before Obama took over in the US.
Again with the Zionists!
You're talking about Israel, or would you really prefer to call it The Zionist Entity?
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It would be more accurate. Not all of Israel is Zionist. Not all of Israel supports the aggression.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
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Further to 137 and 138,
If we were discussing the behaviour of some disagreeable Italians, it would be quite appropriate to refer to the Fascists (who were at the time "the government"), so why is it inappropriate to refer to Zionists (who at the moment control Israeli policy)?
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Hint: the links to posts don't work too well for blogs which have gone over 500. This will work
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2009/01/reporting_from_gaza.html?page=2#comment646
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To 138
It's the Zionists who are the zealots*, but after the number of times I've tried to explain it to you it's pointless to do it again, therefore skew it whatever way you wish.
*If you want to see their propaganda, take a look at some of their web sites as 'dceilar' suggested.
And before you say that there are equivalent sites from other radical groups, please remember that it's the Zionists that are driving Israeli defence policy now.
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If we were discussing the behaviour of some disagreeable Italians, it would be quite appropriate to refer to the Fascists (who were at the time "the government")
So you'd call a (any?) "disagreeable Italian" Fascist just because the Fascists were in power?
In that case all Britons are currently "Labourites", specially if you find a particular Brit "disagreeable"?
so why is it inappropriate to refer to Zionists (who at the moment control Israeli policy)?
Because not all members of the Israeli government (who at the moment controls Israeli policy), or indeed all Israelis are Zionists.
Just one example: Ehud Olmert was in favour of the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 and is in favour of the withdrawal of settlers from large parts of the West Bank and in favour of a Palestinian capital in east Jerusalem - some Zionist!
Hamas is in control of Gaza, and as it's supporters never tire of reminding us, won democratic elections. Can I then refer to all Gazans as terrorists, please?
http://www.memritv.org/video.html
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If you want to see their propaganda, take a look at some of their web sites
Ditto. Please view the video linked to above.
please remember that it's the Zionists that are driving Israeli defence policy now
Are they also driving Hamas policy?
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It's the Zionists who are the zealots*
Who introduced that word into this discussion, and would you call Hamas' idealogues and leaders "zealots"?
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To 145
More obfuscation and circular arguments to deflect from the brutality of the IDF in Gaza, more than a thousand people murdered now!
See HERE for a humanitarian view.
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No, just fascists.Duh! I believe that is precisely my point and that of Jackturk, or weren't you listening?
They were elected, so why not "democrats"? Why not just call them Hamas, as we refer to Zionists as Zionists?
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Bio
First of all, not all Jews are Zionists, and not all Israelis are Zionists. Moreover, you don't have to be either Jewish or Israeli to be a Zionist (there are Christian Zionists). When I talk of Zionists I'm talking of Zionists. In #642 you said: You complain about all Palestinians being branded as terrorists, then please don't call all Jews or Israelis "Zionists". I never did call all Jews and Israelis Zionists. I think we are actually in agreement here on this point.
In #646 you said: I'd like you to prove that "Zionists condone the killing of hundreds of babies" which sounds to me like a blood-libel.
If you can't show proof of Zionists dancing in the street celebrating the deaths of Arab children you should withdraw that slanderous and defamatory accusation.
Are you aware of what the word condone means? Zionists are making up excuses or forgiving or permitting the IDF to kill babies! What makes you think that I imagine Zionists to be dancing in the streets celebrating? You are protesting too much.
I think we can both agree that all violence is abhorrent. We all should support the existence of Israel based on the pre-1967 borders!
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I think the Israeli government is determined to bring the "resistance" which is their code word for terrorism to an end once and for all one way or another. That would be their best goal. Whether directly from the Palestinian areas like Gaza and the West bank or from other places like Lebanon, I think and hope they have finally decided to do whatever it takes so that when it's over, they will be left alone. Their enemies can stop voluntarily or continue dying by "resisting." I don't know if even Obama could stop them. I certainly hope he won't try. I don't see any reason why America should get involved in this. It's never worked before and it only puts off the conflict for another day. It also gives the Palestinians hope that one day they will bring Israel to an end and recapture all of the land. A hopeless ambition.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Getting back to Robin Lustig's theoretical justification for the case on both sides, I suggest some of you reread them. Although they are couched in sweet reason, they are both effectively justifications for the unjustifiable. The idealist will tell you that physical aggression achieves nothing, the pragmatist will tell you that you should not engage in warfare unless you stand a reasonable chance of winning.
There can be no winners in this conflict. Even if the IDF does silence the rockets for a while, it will not do so indefinitely and it will certainly not help the climate of fear and hatred in the region. Israel has already created a PR nightmare for itself. Posters are anxious to attribute blame but in fact, neither side comes out of this with any credit. This conflict is an exercise in futility
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148
Are you aware of what the word condone means?
Are you?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/condone
What makes you think that I imagine Zionists to be dancing in the streets celebrating?
You don't have to imagine Palestinians dancing in the streets celebrating the deaths of Israeli civilians, women and children, while they hand out sweets to each other. It's all been documented, I'm sure you know that and don't need me to to show you where the videos can be seen.
I'd still like you to withdraw your slanderous remark that Zionists approve of the murder of Arab children.
I think we can both agree that all violence is abhorrent.
Yes we can. Do you find the calls to violence in the Hamas video above abhorrent too?
We all should support the existence of Israel based on the pre-1967 borders!
Are those the only terms on whcuch you would support the existence of Israel?
And why should Israel's existence be under discussion at all?
Israel exists, so as you said to me, get over it!
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Bio
The German Nazi party was democratically elected too, but I prefer to call them Fascists.
The Nazi's were not democratically elected into power as you suggest. Hitler (the Nazis were a small minority party in the Reichstag) was invited into the government by Hindenburg to keep the Left out of power. The rest, as they say, is history. There were elections later, but I wouldn't call these 'democratic'.
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dedicated to 'reclaiming' the "Promised Land" from the Gentiles, by whatever means are judged necessary. Zionism, explained by Zionists:Follow the link.Complain about this comment
Bio
Your link to the definition of condone reflects my definition of it if you read my post.
I'd still like you to withdraw your slanderous remark that Zionists approve of the murder of Arab children.
Do you not condone the IDF killing children?
If you don't condone it then join us to help stop the violence and the killing of babies! And support peace by supporting the pre-1967 borders!
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I prefer this definition of Zionism because it also deals with false accusations of apartheid, pointing out the real apartheid that exists in Arab countries, and because it also reminds us of Martin Luther King's memorable quote:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Zionism/Zionism_Is_Not_Racism.html
"When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You're talking anti-Semitism."
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153
The Nazi's were not democratically elected into power as you suggest.
Neither did Hamas take power in Gaza democratically. It did so in a violent coup murdering many of their fellow Palestinians and Arab brothers in the process.
Do you not condone the IDF killing children?
Of course I don't!
But unlike you I don't believe the IDF deliberately target children.
And please, I've asked you before, do not personalise the debate. It's not about you or me.
If you don't condone it then join us to help stop the violence and the killing of babies! And support peace by supporting the pre-1967 borders!
I'll ask you again, since you're intent on insisting that I declare my personal views please declare yours:
"We all should support the existence of Israel based on the pre-1967 borders!"
Are those the only terms on which you would support the existence of Israel?
And why should Israel's existence be under discussion at all?
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dceilar,
On the other thread at the Editors blog you took me to task in a most insulting manner for not answering certain questions in the way in which you wanted me to.
I've asked you several questions here which you have ignored completely.
Please answer the questions I asked you in #152 and #157
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I see the usual suspect(s) are already attempting to censor debate here too!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/worldtonight/2009/01/gaza_points_of_view.html#comment150
Please, let's not accuse the Zionists, again, of stifling debate!
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To 149
Marcus, well done, you are now talking sense (nonsence) therefore you can stay.
I agree with you about the aims of the attack but they will not be achieved. The determination of the Palestinians to resist the Israeli occupation will only get stronger, resulting in more grief on both sides. The Palestinians are now starting to attract support from around the world, therefore the crisis could even escalate. This is the inevitable result of the narrow-minded, bombastic approach of the Israeli government.
If America had the courage, it could influence the situation for the better because Israel is so dependent upon American aid. There are even signs now that the GOP are falling out with the Israeli goverment because of the spat between Rice and Olmert. This could start to sway US opinion.
See THIS
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Bio
Do you find the calls to violence in the Hamas video above abhorrent too?
Of course. Hamas, in an interview with al-BBC in April, said they were willing to accept Israel. Then there was an agreement to a ceasefire if Israel lifted the blockade (which Israel agreed to). Israel never lifted that blockade. The rest is history. Every other agreement made by Israel with Palestinians they have promised to stop the settlements. They never kept their side of the deal; in fact, the pace of new settlements accelerated. And when the Palestinians resumed the violence the pro-Zionist media blame them for breaking the truce. Surreal.
Are those the only terms on whcuch you would support the existence of Israel?
In the name of peace and for the long term future security of Israel and the region, the pre-1967 borders is the best hope for all.
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In an effort to bring some sort of consensus to the posts, hands up those who support dceilar's suggestion that best hope of peace would be IF both sides could agree on a solution based upon the 1967 borders.
My hand goes up.
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Bio
Neither did Hamas take power in Gaza democratically. It did so in a violent coup murdering many of their fellow Palestinians and Arab brothers in the process.
Er. Yes they did win the democratic election. Or is your memory that short. Now I'm not a fan of Hamas, but even I know that it was Fatah who were staging the coup.
Is anything you write trustworthy?
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Jack
You can count on both my hands being up.
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dceilar
Looks like there's only us two, I assume Ed's left.
Those who don't agree, kindly state your conditions for peace, don't be shy.
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Still no more takers!!
I've heard it said that trying to pin a Zionist down is like trying to nail jelly to a wall, perhaps it's true.
See you later.
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Shalom
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The 1967 border suggestions sounds fair to me.
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I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a 42 year obsolete map to make a return anytime soon...or ever again. Won't happen. If the Palis had any brains, they'd make the most of what they have left. But then if they had any brains, they wouldn't be in the fix they're in now. I think the fighting will continue awhile longer. How much longer could it go on before a real catastrophe hits them. I guess Hamas hasn't gotten enough of its civilians killed or injured yet....but they said they'd fight to the last drop of Palestinian blood...and they are the elected government.
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I listened this evening 14/1/2009. There were two lawyers talking about possible war crimes with an Israeli and a Britsh Lawyer.
Why was there no Palestinian lawyer. The Israeli lawyer defended the position of Israel. The same opportunity should be given to a Palestinian lawyer for balance. Balance can only be achieved if both sides have equal air time.
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#169 - MarcusAureliusII
Yes, I should have been clearer. As the 1967 borders are the bottom line for UNSC Resolution 242 (November 22, 1967), it sounds fair as a starting point.
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121. Jackturk
I have an idea that what you know about Ariel Sharon could fit into the head of a pin. Even so, you probably know that the Sabra and Shatilla atrocity was committed by the Lebanese and not the Israelis. Sharon sued Time Magazine for falsely claiming that the Israeli cabinet had planned Sabra and Shatilla with the Lebanese as revenge for the assassination of a Lebanese leader. He won the case.
You can talk about "tactical reasons" for the Israelis withdrawing from Gaza as much as you like but the fact remains that the disengagement complied with the demand made on Israel to withdraw to pre-1967 boundaries and as such was a fine starting point for the first move towards peace in sixty years from the Arab side. Unfortunately, not only was that move not forthcoming, the Palestinians responded by immediately continuing the rocket fire on pre-1967 Israel.
Most of the points that you and some others on here raise, are intended as a smoke screen to deflect attention from the horrors that Israel is now inflicting on the people of Gaza.
Spare me the pop psychology. I have been arguing along the same lines for years on these blogs and elsewhere. There has been no sudden change to "justify" anything. And you should consider directing your apparent moral outrage against Hamas terrorists for hiding behind, and thus endangering, women and children when they fire at Israel.
I note that you have no answer to the point I made about the criminal bearing responsibility for the death of a hostage killed by a police officer firing back at the criminal.
And I have no doubt you have never been outraged about Arab terror against Israeli civilians.
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Did anyone just hear the report on Israeli perspectives - how unbelievable of that woman to say "we need to kill them in order to survive or they will kill us". They clearly haven't seen the death tolls which show that if anyone has any need to be fearful it's definitely not Israelis.
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MarcusAurelius2: "But then if they had any brains, they wouldn't be in the fix they're in now"
The Palestinians did not choose to be in the position they're in. If an unarmed population is faced with bombardment, imprisonment and occupation for 60 years by the fourth largest army in the world, the outcome is hardly surprising. What would you like them to do exactly?
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173. SarahJ85,
You miss the point of terror. The Arabs have been terrorising the Jews on that strip of land since well before the creation of the state of Israel. Kassam rockets fired at civilians are just the most recent manifestation of that terror. Now the situation has become more dire with the smuggling into Gaza of longer-range missiles which have hit Israeli cities 40 kilometers from Gaza.
Obviously people should be concerned about civilian casualties on the Palestinian side. But the bigger picture is that Hamas and the other Palestinian terror groups are committed to the killing of as many Jews as possible and the total destruction of Israel. Any country would be fully justified in taking the measures Israel is taking.
Funny thing is, only Israel gets hysterical condemnation heaped on its head for what would be understood and accepted as an unavoidable strategy for self-defence by any other nation.
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There is a lot of talk about the 1967 borders, as if some how this is the solution if both just agree.
Wake up smell the coffee the two state solution is dead and was never viable. The only solution is a bi-national state. This would suite the Israeli settlers they can live anywhere on the West Bank or Gaza.
The the argument is just about human rights and equality.
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SarahJ85, if you had any brains, you'd know the Palis are armed to the teeth with weapons they've been smuggling in for years though tunnels from Egypt among other ways. What exactly do you think the Israelis have been doing in Gaza these last 18 days. Don't you watch the news? Don't you know anything about what is going on or do you just spout off.
But your point is well taken and one I made awhile ago. At this point, the Israelis are so tired of being targeted by "the resistance" that whatever the official government line is, many Israelis probably no longer care if the Palestinians live or die and many probably want them all dead so that the attacks on them will stop. As I said in an earlier post, if one of those Palestinian rockets hits a classroom full of school kids and blows them away, there may be a backlash that will change the whole complexion of the military campaign to something much uglier. The Palis continue to play with fire. They are risking national suicide.
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#172 - TrueToo
Sabra and Shatila - Oh come on, the IDF allowed the Christian Phalangists to enter the refugee camps and they knew exactly what would happen. A massacre of civilians took place inside to avenge the assassination of Gemayel. Sharon was defence minister at the time and was subsequently forced out. He had every right to sue Time. The IDF were not directly culpable but don't tell us they were innocent bystanders. Its was in the best tradition of Pilate.
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Truetoo
Some FACTS for you:
Please spare us the argument about disengagement from Gaza as a gesture of peace by the Israelis. They withdrew settlers who were in Gaza ILLEGALLY in violation of international law. Do we need to applaud the fact they finally decided to obey one single UN resolution as opposed to 100 which they continue to violate?
Furthermore, Israel withdrew 8,000 settlers from Gaza. Straight after that, it placed another 12,000 settlers in the West Bank. It's continued to expand illegal settlements in the West Bank and confiscate Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem in defiance of international law. If you don't believe me, perhaps you'll accept the words of an Israeli academic, Avi Shlaim:
"To the world, Sharon presented the withdrawal from Gaza as a contribution to peace based on a two-state solution. But in the year after, another 12,000 Israelis settled on the West Bank, further reducing the scope for an independent Palestinian state. The real purpose behind the move was to redraw unilaterally the borders of Greater Israel by incorporating the main settlement blocs on the West Bank to the state of Israel. Withdrawal from Gaza was thus not a prelude to a peace deal with the Palestinian Authority but a prelude to further Zionist expansion on the West Bank. It was a unilateral Israeli move undertaken in what was seen, mistakenly in my view, as an Israeli national interest. Anchored in a fundamental rejection of the Palestinian national identity, the withdrawal from Gaza was part of a long-term effort to deny the Palestinian people any independent political existence on their land."
Even if Israel made a show of pulling out its settlers, it continued its chokehold on Gaza, and closed all its borders, so that no one, not even UN and aid agencies could get access by sea, land or air.
As for Hamas sheltering behind civilians, there is absolutely no evidence for this other than repeated Israeli assertions. This isn't the first time Israel has killed vast numbers of civilians and tried to pass it off using fabrications. When it bombed a UN school last week and killed 42 civilians, IDF spokesmen said the school was being used by Hamas fighters - this turned out to be an absolute lie. The UN officials in charge of the school confirmed no fighters had entered or operated near the school at all. Just one example of Israeli duplicity and willingness to fabricate facts to justify its killing.
As for the Sabra and Shatila massacre, it was committed by Israel's right-wing Lebanese Phalangist allies while Israeli troops, as Israel's own commission of inquiry revealed, watched for 48 hours and did nothing. The Israelis invited the militants to enter, guided them to the camp and controlled the entrances and exits while the militia carried out the killings. The Israeli government's own Kahan Commission found Ariel Sharon to bear personal responsibility for "ignoring the danger of bloodshed and revenge" and for "not taking appropriate measures to prevent bloodshed." The commission recommended that Sharon be removed as head of the Defence Ministry, and Sharon, after initial resistance, resigned.
And as for Sharon winning the case against TIME, well that's just an outright lie. Time won the suit because Sharon's defence failed to prove it had "acted out of malice". Feel free to check - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_
I understand that Israel's supporters feel they have no choice but to bend and distort the truth to justify Israel's actions but it really does your case no favours
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MarcusAureliusII:
Firstly, insults are quite unnecessary and do nothing to strengthen your case so why don't we dispense with them - this is a discussion, not a slinging match.
As for watching the news, funnily enough I've been doing just that for the past 19 days but it seems the news you're watching is not exactly representative of reality. I know the news I'm watching is reliable because I can see pictures of what's happening in Gaza with my very own eyes, while none of the international channels you might be watching have any correspondents or cameramen inside the Gaza Strip - because Israel banned them all from entering.
What I've been seeing on the news doesn't support your arguments. 1026 Palestinians dead and 4800 injured as opposed to 10 Israeli soldiers dead and 17 injured. That doesn't quite fit with your "hamas armed to the teeth" talk does it? Surely if they'd been stockpiling weapons for years, now would seem to be a pretty good time to use them wouldn't you say? The fact is, had it not been for those tunnels, the people of Gaza would have perished a long time ago because those tunnels were pretty much their only way of getting basic humanitarian needs - food - because Israel has been blocking all access to the Strip for months. It even prevented aid ships and convoys, medical supplies and fuel from entering. That sort of collective punishment is prohibited under international humanitarian law.
As for the rocket attacks, please try to get a sense of perspective - in the three years after the withdrawal from Gaza, 11 Israelis were killed by rocket fire. On the other hand, in 2005-7 alone, the IDF killed 1,290 Palestinians in Gaza, including 222 children. That's obviously not including the 1000 people left dead in the past 19 days alone. The figures speak for themselves.
I understand that Israelis don't want to be terrorised by rockets - but can they honestly not equally see that Palestinians don't want to be imprisoned, starved and bombarded in their own homes? I've heard Israelis from Sderot and Ashkelon speaking on TV about the fear they feel because of these rockets - one man spoke of not being able to get soap in his eyes when taking a shower in case a rocket fell. But at this point in time, fear of death by rockets which probably have a 0.0001% chance of killing somewhat pales in comparison to ACTUAL death and injury being inflicted on a large section of the Gazan population - the Palestinian death toll, if you translate it into UK numbers, is the equivalent of 40,000 people being killed here. Can you not see the complete lack of proportionality there?
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179 - SarahJ85
You pasted an incomplete link to Wikipedia. The piece in question can be foundHERE.
In it's biography of Sharon, Wikipedia states "In its 21 February 1983 issue, Time published a story implying Sharon was directly responsible for the massacres. Sharon sued Time for libel in American and Israeli courts. Although the jury concluded that the Time story included false allegations, they found that Time had not acted with "actual malice" and did not award any damages", so technically far from telling "an out and lie", TooTrue is factually correct, even if there was no moral victory. Comdemnation lies in the findings of the Kahan Commission, which held the IDF 'indirectly responsible'.
Your comment about bending and distorting cuts both ways.
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You've summarised the Palestinian and Israeli positions pretty well. However, as a Jew who has visited Israel and the West Bank (though not Gaza) I know that Palestinians have a capacity for human sympathy with Israelis which is generally lacking in reverse. This was chillingly illustrated by the interviews with Israelis at Massada, broadcast on PM tonight. What grotesque, twisted views those people have, talking without any hint of irony, as the pile of Palestinian corpses in Gaza soars into four figures, of the Jews who died at Massada 2,000 years ago as somehow justifying the hate-filled militarism of Israel today. With one exception, Rachel, - and thank God for her - they could not see how perverted, how inherently racist and anti-Jewish, this logic is. Training their children to believe that their race is doomed for ever to be locked in conflict with non-Jews, and that they must be ready to kill and kill and kill . . . this is a nightmare vision which I deplore. Thankfully I am not alone, as evidenced by a full page ad in today’s Times (p.34) in which nearly 600 British Jews called for an end to Israel’s war crimes. As your hypothetical Palestinian said, Israel has to give them their rights if there is ever to be peaceful co-existence. Your hypothetical Israeli has to be persuaded, by boycott and sanctions, like apartheid South Africa, if necessary, that perpetuating gross injustices in defiance of international law, UN resolutions and humanitarian conventions, decade after decade, is simply too dangerous to be allowed to continue. The consequence of continuing to appease militant Zionism, in terms of growth of anti-semitism and international terrorism, is just too horrible to contemplate.
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I've just seen the comments about disturbing reports of Palestinians celebrating Israeli deaths by handing out sweets. Very nasty.
Zionist charities are even now inviting supporters of the IDF to send soldiers gift packs including . . . their favourite sweets.
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173. At 10:45pm on 14 Jan 2009, SarahJ85 wrote:
Did anyone just hear the report on Israeli perspectives - how unbelievable of that woman to say "we need to kill them in order to survive or they will kill us". They clearly haven't seen the death tolls which show that if anyone has any need to be fearful it's definitely not Israelis.
I wrote about "the need to kill", or otherwise, here, and it shows that if anybody has any doubts about who feels the need to deliberately kill civilians it's the Palestinians.
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183
Are those so-called "Zionist charities" inviting the IDF to celebrate Palestinian deaths?
... thought not.
the truth just smacked you in the face, but you turn the other cheek and walk on...
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171
As the 1967 borders are the bottom line for UNSC Resolution 242 (November 22, 1967), it sounds fair as a starting point.
Actually it isn't.
Read it carefully.
It talks about "territories"
Not the territories.
Gaza is a territory that has already been handed over to the "Palestinians" because Egypt refused to take it back.
It (the resolution) also says a final agreement will be reached through negotiation. The Arabs have shown no will to enter into such negotiations, as far as I'm aware.
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THIS appears to knock a rather large hole in the already somewhat shaky moral high ground the Israelis claim.
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#163
"Neither did Hamas take power in Gaza democratically. It did so in a violent coup murdering many of their fellow Palestinians and Arab brothers in the process."
Er. Yes they did win the democratic election. Or is your memory that short. Now I'm not a fan of Hamas, but even I know that it was Fatah who were staging the coup.
I accept that Hamas won an election, for the Palestinian Authority Parliament, not to rule Gaza as an entity apart from the West Bank. I don't believe that is what the inhabitants of Gaza actually voted for.
It's absurd to suggest that Hamas achieved its current dominance other than through that bloody coup.
By saying that Fatah actually instigated the coup (I know not whether that's true or not, neither do I care) you raise an interesting point.
If you're happy with a situation in which Hamas retains power and possession of a territory gained through resisting a coup (allegedly) instigated by Fatah, why do you not accept that Israel has a right to retain power and possession of territories gained through its defence in a war instigated against it?
Most nations in the world, after all, have drawn their boundaries on the basis of territories conquered in war.
The words "good", "goose" and "gander" spring to mind.
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Another blood-libel laid to rest:
Forensics report shows Palestinian rock-thrower was not shot by settler
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187. At 01:03am on 15 Jan 2009, threnodio wrote:
THIS appears to knock a rather large hole in the already somewhat shaky moral high ground the Israelis claim.
Not at necessarily:
Leaflets may counter 'war crime' claims
BTW, what about war crimes committed by Hamas, or are they as white as driven snow?
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SarahJ85, are you just ignorant or a closet Nazi like those who refer to "Zionists" and "the Zionist entity" on many of these blog sites? Yes I know my source of news is not very reliable but then it's only BBC, broadcast BTW on NJN at 6:30 PM every weeknight. I've been watching it too. Your arguments mean nothing. The goal of the Palestinians is clear and has never wavered one iota from the day Israel was created in 1948 and that is to destroy it. That is why they voted in Hamas. The PLO "moderates" said they wanted to co-exist with Israel...but only on terms that would make its long term prospects for survival highly dubious. So they've picked a fight to the finish with people far better armed than they are. Yes they have lots of weapons, rockets and small arms and they are using them. Instead of just watching the images why not also turn up the sound and you will hear the reports of heavy fighting day and night around Gaza. Those aren't rocks Hamas is aiming at the IDF. And there are huge caches of weapons and rockets being discovered and destroyed by the IDF. The resistance will be crushed one way or another. If not now, then when Israelis are finally fed up.
davidsdaughter, the Israelis once felt sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians but I'll bet not much any more. 61 years of war to annihilate Israel by any means available has burned it out of them. I on the other hand never had any sympathy for them. I knew instinctively what kind of people they are. The kind who celebrated at the death of 3000 Americans at the hands of al Qaeda on 9-11. That is why I am only too happy to see my government send billions of tax dollars worth of military equipment to Israel every year. I feel my money is well spent when they use it to defend themselves...like right now. I know a lot of liberal American Jews with the same guilt ridden views of life that you have. You and your kind make me sick. If you had your way, there wouldn't be an Israel. Get a grip on yourself and grow up. Accept the real world for what it is but if you can't, stand out of the way for those who do and are dealing with it.
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#191 - MAII,
I will leave it to other posters to reply to your laughable comment which reeks of ignorance ("what kind of people they are"; "you and your kind")... not sure one would want to waste their time on it though.
But just one question:
You say: "I knew instinctively what kind of people they are."
You mean from watching "those people" on your TV? Have you ever even met a Palestinian?
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cnn4, yes I've met them...when I lived in France. But you are right, I've seen most of what I know about them on TV. In a way, they are in a sense victims because they've been told a lifetime of lies about Jews, about Israel having stolen their land, and have been filled with hatred from the time they were old enough to understand. Do you know that small Palestinian children as young as 5 years old play "suicide bomber?" Just ask yourself what kind of people would send their children into the streets between armed hostile soldiers and armed terrorists, sent to taunt the soldiers and throw rocks at them. The answer that you don't want to hear is that they are people who hate Israel and Israelis more than they love their own children. And now their hatred will reap the bitter fruits of ruin of what's left of their miserable surroundings and death. Consumed ultimately by their own hate.
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re: 161 dceilar In the name of peace and for the long term future security of Israel and the region, the pre-1967 borders is the best hope for all.
Given that, under the present circumstances, all bets are off, why not think beyond the borders:
The UN gave birth to this mess (not least out of western guilt for the Holocaust); now it’s a global tinderbox. Time has come to take collective responsibility–to take the potential, nay the necessity, for a powerful set of global institutions seriously, and turn Israel-Palestine into an internationally-administered, shining beacon of hope for the world. No, really. Call me crazy, but i mean it.
This is not as hard to do as it may sound–it takes some creativity and vision–but, phased in, from Jerusalem outwards, for instance, it may even be doable within this generation.
Combining the overarching structure of the late Ottoman millet system with the innovative democratic innovations of the EU, the result could be an entirely new paradigm of sociopolitical organization: the Permanent International Zone, a multicultural global protectorate.
What's to lose?
This from the very thoughtful blog Halewistan.
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TT Bio Marcu
Judging by all your silence on the plight of children in Gaza I can only assume that you all condone the killings of these babies.
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#182 Davidsdaughter
I agree with every word.
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Bio
How can Hamas stage a coup when it is they that were in power (by winning the 2006 democratic election)?
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#194 Pinko
Thanks for the link. Zionists here think that the UN is an anti-Semite or anti-Israel organisation. Shows how little they know.
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RE the blog technical problems,
which I passed to the team responsible, the reply was:
"Thanks Marko, very useful. We're aware of these bugs and work is being undertaken to resolve them by Martin's team"
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To 172
In my absence, others have very kindly and very succinctly answered the points you raised. I notice however you didn't mention the 'Qibya Massacre' where forces under Sharon's command slaughtered 69 unarmed Palestinians. "Original documents of the time showed that Sharon personally ordered his troops to achieve "maximal killing and damage to property". - Wikipedia.
Still not a thug?
The response I hear from Zionists, and despite the objections from FirstBio I stand by that term as an appropriate discriminator, is "you killed some of us, therefore to teach you a lesson, we've got to kill more of you". It doesn't seem to occur to them that this mentality guarantees perpetual and escalating conflict, although, thinking about it, maybe that's what they want!
Most conflicts are about action and reaction and this is no different, but no matter where you take the snapshot, it would seem to a neutral observer that It is Israel that is taking the action and it is the Palestinians who are reacting, I think Robin's blog above captured it perfectly, that's not meant to damn him with bias!
Judging by recent events, it would appear that the Israeli leadership does not want peace, at least not on any reasonable terms, they are content to fight Palestinians until they either capitulate or move, it is indicative of the hatred and bitterness expressed by some posters here.
The inescapable conclusion is that it is Zionism, with its out-moded, stone age mentality that is at the root of the problem. The Zionists on here won't admit it of course but their overarching desire is for Jews exclusively to occupy the whole of the 'Land of Canaan' - Palestine. There is one slight problem, there are Arabs there already. In addition, many Jews do not agree with Zionist aspirations.
To 176, 194
I completely agree with you, I've suggested the same myself, however it may be too much to hope for, therefore the '1967 border' solution may be the only option.
Zionists out there please let us know your solutions.
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Namaste,
Jackturk (162), Mine has been up for decades! But I'd prefer Jam's (176) Bi-National state (echoes of Res 181 Bi-national, with currency union and free interchange....
Bio, Laughable, if in a very sad sort of way.
David's Daughter, Shalom Haver! Is it sort of like with person of colour, the "Z" word is only permissible from the mouth of Jews? Bio seems to take offence when I and others use it in the pejorative. Maybe we should take your hint and add "militant" as a prefix...
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
And thanks for the link, Pinko - good stuff!
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dceilar and jackturk,
I personally am fed-up to the teeth with you calling everybody in this topic who disagrees with you a Zionist. I am not a Zionist, I do not agree with Israel occupying Gaza or the West Bank, however I also do not condone the war-mongering of your beloved 'democratically ellected' terrorist group Hamas. Please take a look at the people in the West bank and their different attitude at the moment and stop using the word Zionist in such a derrogatory manner. Otherwise I will have to refer your posts to the moderatators.
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May I respectfully suggest that those who are using the word "Zionist" in this thread define what they understand the word to mean?
The normally-accepted definition of Zionism is that it is a political ideology arguing that Jews have the right to a homeland in Palestine. If you belive that the State of Israel has a right to exist, therefore, you are a Zionist.
As I understand it, Zionism does not necessarily imply a belief that Israel has the right to occupy the West Bank and/or Gaza, not does it necessarily imply support for Israel's current operations in Gaza.
The only Jewish Israelis I have come across who are not Zionists according to this definition belong to a small ultra-Orthodox sect called Neturei Karta, who argue that Jews do not have the right to establish a State until the coming of the Messiah.
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Robin
The numbers theme from your previous piece continues, with the news the deaths in Gaza have passed the one thousand mark. It is now of a magnitude that puts it in the same league as Saddam Hussein's massacre of the Kurds. An atrocity frequently cited as justification for the intervention in Iraq. Not only is it the numbers that put them in the same league. Saddam's act was committed "against his own people," just as the Gazan slaughter is similarly conducted.
Comparisons with Northern Ireland are also valid. Had our reaction to a 'Birmingham' or a 'Warrington' been to send RAF fighter-bombers above the streets of Belfast night and day in pursuit of terrorists there would have been an outcry - especially from America.
Had we positioned Royal Navy battleships off the Irish coast to fire daily barrages of shells across the rooftops of coastal houses and apartment buildings into the homes of Sinn Fein/IRA members we would have seen our ambassadors and diplomats arriving at Heathrow and Gatwick.
Had we argued that the RAF/RN targetting of number 22 West Street, Belfast was justified because the son of the family had Sinn Fein connections. there would have been the strongest condemnations from other leaders.
And had we further contested the neighbours living either side in No.20 and No.24 wouldn't be affected by the 500lb shells, we would have been accused of indiscriminate, disproportionate action. To claim a laser guided missile bomb restricts its' effects within the Land Registry boundaries is ridiculous. Ask the relatives of those who lived across the street at Numbers 19, 21, and 23.
Further consideration shows we wouldn't have got that far. A sixteen month embargo on Belfast preventing the arrival of all foods, medicines and dressings for all citizens resulting in 300 deaths coupled with a similar ban on all their exports, witholding their tax revenue and turning off the power for heating and cooking would never have been tolerated. Not even for a week.
It's difficult to see what the Israeli Kadima party will achieve. It claims it wanted the rockets to cease. But the ceasefire that will inevitably follow, will bring them back to a situation which will look very similar to what they had before they broke the ceasefire!
Which brings us back to the numbers theme. Vote numbers. Was this action simply to improve the electoral chances of the Kadima party in the imminent February elections by over-shadowing their 'perceived defeat' in Lebanon in 2006?
Everyday we learn of more atrocities. And everyday, we hear more leading figures who, hitherto were regarded as detached, impartial, but have spoken out - and taken to the streets. Cracks are appearing in Europe and we are hearing from Jewish voices. There are those who are psychologically conditioned to supporting Israel - no matter what they do. However, let's not forget it was just six years ago that Barak Obama also took to the streets marching alongside, amongst others, George Galloway .
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To 202
Your post is disingenuous because you should know from my previous posts that I am certainly not calling everybody who disagrees with me a Zionist, therefore if you are not a Zionist why let it worry you?
The problem is that Zionists have tried to make their case respectable which it most certainly isn't and they are frightened that if the finger is pointed at them they will be rumbled.
If I can't call anyone with Zionist beliefs a 'Zionist' please tell me the correct way to refer to them.
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to 205
You will not hear! Mr Lusting has given you a very detailed answer at #203 have a look at it. Personally, I will stop responding to anything you write anymore. I do not want to have any part in encouraging your blind fanaticism.
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Robin,
Firstly, thanks for actually being "in attendance". Secondly, I fear you ar being too simplistic:1. As noted above, Zionism has many faces (and facets).
3. The "right to exist" for a state is a very dubious matter. It is a right of individuals and nations (in the sense of "peoples"), but for states, it is far from clear how such a right may be obtained/granted. Also, rights and responsibilities are co-relative, and, for example, UN membership implies/requires the responsibility to abide by its principles, rules, resolutions, etc.
I believe in the right of peoples to exist, in theeir innate right of self-determination and their liberty to behave as the wish, with the proviso that such behaviour does not infringe the coequal rights of all others. (credit to John Stuart Mill)
I do not accept that Israel conforms to these conditions or recognises her responsibilities. I do not believe that two wrongs (Holocaust, whatever) make any sort of right, nor that a wronged people have any right to displace and dispossess any other. Sadly, history is littered with examples, but we had hoped those days were over.
In sadness
Your friend and listener
ed
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You people should get married it would be so perfect the way you argue with each other.
peace
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Is this another case of Déjà vu (Deja Vu) or Deva jew all over again?
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To 203
Robin, apologies, I had not seen your post prior to my last posting.
I will gladly comply with your request but prior to that, I would appreciate anyone who supports Zionist aspirations to give me their definition.
Please note, I will not automatically assume that you are a Zionist if you respond.
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I use the term Zionism for an extremist form of Jewish Nationalism (or Revisionist Zionism ) and/or to those who believe in the concept of a Greater Israel on Palestinian/Arab land. Robin, in my opinion, no State has a right to exist. A State isn't a person.
Isenhorn, as far as I have read on this blog you still have not refused to condone the killing of children in Gaza. For someone who does not agree with the occupation isn't this strange as it is pretty much a yes or no - you either do or you don't.
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Robin,
May I respectfully suggest that that would be a sufficiently interesting exercise for a completely new thread?;-)ed
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MarcusAureliusII: I love the way your instinctive way of trying to explain away my views is to label me a Nazi, what a pathetic tactic. How exactly do one's references to the word 'Zionist' constitute a Nazi mindset - as far as I'm aware Zionism is a movement which exists, just like socialism or conservatism, and it constitutes the basis and raison d'etre of Israel, as delineated by Herzl, Ben-Gurion and the other leaders of the Zionist movement. Can you please explain how using the word 'Zionist' renders one a Nazi? I'm sure it's probably based on the same inverted logic as the argument that criticising Israel renders one automatically anti-semitic. That's probably why you hate fellow Jews who speak out against Israel so much - because they take away your ability to demonise and explain away every critic of Israel as an anti-semite or Nazi/fascist. How inconvenient
As for your argument that "The PLO "moderates" said they wanted to co-exist with Israel...but only on terms that would make its long term prospects for survival highly dubious", Israel has made a show of wanting peace but it has never followed up on its promises. Let's take Annapolis for instance - Israel not only continued its assaults on palestinian towns after this, but escalated them.
In the 6 months after the conference, killed and 1706 injured in over 2000 attacks. Israel not only continued building illegal settlements in the West Bank but escalated it, and confiscated Palestinian land in East Jerusalem, releasing bids for constructing of more than 1100 houses for settlers.
In the heart of Nablus in the West Bank, it shut down and confiscated an entire multi-storey shopping centre, notwithstanding the fact that it is a publicly-held company, and in blatant disregard of signed agreements which prohibit the Occupation from shutting down and confiscating property inside PA areas. It also seized 1500 Dunams from Palestinian towns east of Jerusalem as Israel continued to construct the settler-only roads surrounding the city.
It continued to build the separation wall, four years after the ICJ held the wall and settlements to be illegal under international law.
You don't have to take my word for it, just read the reports produced by Israel's own human rights organisations like B'Tselem http://www.btselem.org/english/Jerusalem/Index.asp
or do you prefer to also explain their reports away as the product of "Nazis"?
In fact, the success of Hamas is largely due to the fact that the peace accords with Israel simply did not bring any benefit at all to the Palestinians - Israel expropriated more and more land for its settlements, its settler-only roads, more water. As Avi Shlaim says (another Israeli who you probably choose to dismiss as a sell-out "liberal") land-grabbing and peace-making are simply incompatible. So don't tell me Palestinians have been trying to destroy Israel, it's clear here who's been doing the destroying and who doesn't want peace unless it involves them getting everything they want and more.
As for Israel's claims that Hamas broke the ceasefire, what a load of rubbish. It was not Hamas but the IDF that broke the ceasefire. On 4 November, it used the opportunity of the entire world being busy watching the US elections to conduct a raid into Gaza that killed six Hamas men.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians
That's what set off the rockets. Hamas was not the one who broke the ceasefire, despite the fact that Israel had placed a siege on its territory for months, severely restricting imports and even preventing medical supplies, fuel and food from coming in.
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sorry the 3rd para in my last post shd read "In the 6 months after the conference, the IDF killed 330 and injured 1706 Palestinians in over 2000 attacks."
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#214 Sarah
Excellent post. May I add that the deal with Hamas also included Israel lifting its blockade. Israel broke that promise. I think Palestinians have had enough Israeli 'peace deals' to last them a lifetime.
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Shalom Haver, Sarah
You won't get far with some folks here by citing B'Tselem. They characterise it as a "Far Left Extreme Anti-Israel" organisation...
Peace
ed
(a gentle Gentile)
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To : SarahJ85
Re: #214
I wouldn't bother. When presented with facts - he resorts to "I don't care."
One has to question why anyone would put so much time and effort into telling others he doesn't care!
Much of his argument is coffee froth.
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The restraint the Israelis have shown over the last 61 years of being under perpetual attack by those who would destroy their country is remarkable. I cannot think of any other nation which would have held back for so long. There is nothing they can do in their own defense which I will criticize. They have every legal and moral right to do whatever it takes to survive including expanding their borders to create a defendable territory and attacking those who plot against them even if it means considerable collateral damage including the death of civilians in the process. This is exactly what we in NATO have had as our policy for well over 50 years. Does anyone think 20,000 hydrogen bombs targeted at everything of value in the Sino-Soviet empire would have selectively killed only military personnel? It would have killed everyone in the name of defending ourselves. Israelis have the same right. Now which is "immoral" if that matters? Killing Palestinian civilians as collateral damage in killing Hamas terrorists or passivity allowing their own people to remain targets of Palestinian rocket attacks, suicide bombers, and whatever other weapons they could find. I am perfectly happy with the way the battle is proceeding. I think that if Hamas doesn't stop and the so called armed resistance which is nothing more than terrorism doesn't end, what the Palestinians have gotten so far is just a taste of what is coming. They voted for Hamas, they voted for a fanatical group that promised to wage war against Israel, and now they got what they wished for. Except they thought it would be the Israelis who would do most of the dying. I don't even hear them suggesting that maybe they should reconsider. And when it's over, I'm sure Hamas will claim victory just the way Hezbollah did after Israel trashed Lebanon. That was just a taste of what they'll get next time too. Live with it, you can't change it. It's long overdue.
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#219 Marcu
Read the first line then couldn't be bothered with the rest. Sorry. Ever heard of paragraphs; or is that a European invention that you dislike?
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Marcu
BTW in Justin Webb's blog #260 you stated that: How many for example have even suggested let alone tried to help their freezing fellow Europeans by shipping some of their own gas to where it has been cut off
You think Gas is shipped around Europe? How many boats carrying gas have you seen? Sums you up to a tee.
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dceilar #221, yes the EU has known for at least three years since the last time this happened that they were vulnerable. How much planning, how much in the way of resources, how many LNG ships did they build or arrange to divert to handle such an eventuality. Too busy scheming Lisbon to be bothered? Yes in Europe in the EU it's all for one, one for all, and every country for itself. The European disUnion is the EUSSR. Glug glug. Glug glug.
#220, yes I suspected all along your attention span was no more than about 11 seconds.
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222 - MarcusAureliusII
I think tanking gas is an excellent suggestion. I hope that we can build suitable facilities in the major seaports of Hungary, the Czech Republic, Austria, Slovakia, Moldova, Serbia, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Lichtenstein - wait a minute! Don't you need a coast for that?
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Coming back on subject, if the problem in hand were to be resolved, we could be piping Libyan gas through the region via Lebanon and Turkey to Europe and bringing enormous economic benefits to Gaza and fresh resources to Israel.
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Robin, maybe I haven't given them enough time but I notice that supporters of Zionism have not responded, therefore to assist, maybe they would like to agree with or deny the following statements.
The above are only some of the milder statements, I could list others much more belligerent from Zionists on blogs such as this, which match anything that radical Islamists print, no names Marcus!!
I could also quote the views of many learned Jews who are certainly not orthodox Jews, who completely reject the concept of Zionism because they know it is so divisive that it could lead to the destruction of Israel.
Zionists often claim that Zionism is political and not religious but they believe that God bequeathed Israel to Jews not to any other religion, therefore it follows that Zionism must also have a religious dimension.
The main reason I refer to 'Zionists' is that those on this blog who are in support of the murderous actions of the IDF may be Jews, Israelis, Christians, or indeed any other race, nationality or religion but they are all exhibiting Zionist tendencies and it's precisely because I do not want to refer to their ethnicity or whatever that I try to be more specific.
So Robin, are you content to let me continue to use the term 'Zionist' so as to differentiate between those Jews and those Israelis who do not support Zionist policies, or would it be more acceptable to refer to them as 'radical Zionists'?
And thanks for the blog.
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threnodio, there are coasts...in Germany, Belgium, France, Holland, Poland, Italy, Spain, Portugal. Gas can be piped overland from there. Much of it is already built out. See BBC's map of the pipeline network around Europe. The same pipes that deliver gas from Ukraine from all over Europe can be used to distribute it from those that have it to those that haven't. And it can be done today. But nobody in the EU I've ever heard of even considered for one moment how they could make a sacrifice to help each other out. That hasn't even been suggested.
In a way, this freeze out is well deserved. This is the kind of sacrifice the Europeans were demanding of Americans when they insisted on Kyoto. Did anyone think there would be no price to pay in discomfort or lost industrial output? So Europe is forced to comply with Kyoto after all by circumstances but not in the way they envisioned. Just as the Palestinians are getting their just rewards for the war they wanted and voted for war but not in the way they envisioned either. How ironic. How poetic. What justice. Almost makes me believe in god.
"You're all doing very well."
Young Mr. Grace
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Peacniks -- Tired of same old, same old Marcus? Been over to the J-Post lately? There's people blogging here who make Marcus seem, well, positively enlightened.
Just a thought. Sorry if redundant.
Cheers,
Canadian Pinko
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#229 Pinko
Yeah you're right they're nuts. Funny at first then it's gets depressing.
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Constant background
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/PeaceComplain about this comment
226 - MarcusAureliusII
As I have posted elsewhere, Hungary this evening made 1.5 million units of it's reserves gas available to Slovakia. I will be happy to debate energy and European politics with you elsewhere but it has nothing to do with the subject in hand.
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Im gonna be iron like a lion in zion
Iron lion zion
Im on the run but I aint got no gun
See they want to be the star
So they fighting tribal war
And they saying iron like a lion in zion
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threnodio, that's how much gas I use to heat my house for one week. :-)
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203. Robin_Lustig,
That's a really interesting comment. My objection to the word Zionist on these blogs and elsewhere is that people use it as they would a swear word.
178. threnodio,
Sharon claimed that the Phalangists were instructed to root out the terrorists and not harm civilians. It's unlikely that we will ever get to the whole truth of the atrocity but I guess it's fair that Sharon was relieved of his post as defence minister since Israel's allies committed the atrocity. I object to the blind condemnation of Sharon (as a cover, of course, for condemning Israel) by those who make it appear that he personally went into Sabra and Shatilla and gunned civilians down.
179. SarahJ85,
Care to apologise for telling me I was lying about Ariel Sharon winning the case against Time? It's so easy to Google and become an instant expert on the Israeli-Arab conflict. But you should have read your own Wiki link. Then you would have noticed I was telling the truth.
In his most readable autobiography, Warrior, Sharon explains the matter and also deals in some detail with Sabra and Shatilla. Now for falsely accusing me of lying you can do a penance and read the book.
The settlers were not "in Gaza ILLEGALLY in violation of international law."
I know this cliché sounds good and the anger must feel really righteous, but check your facts. Under Resolution 242, the territories are disputed and their status is to be resolved as part of a negotiated agreement. And Israel is not required to withdraw from all the settlements.
There is another small fact that you ignore: the Arabs also have obligations under 242. Do you know what they are?
That Gaza terrorists continued to fire missiles into Israel when the dust from the disengagement had hardly settled is one of the most telling moments in the Israeli-Arab conflict: it made it painfully obvious that Hamas and Islamic Jihad and their fellow-travellers saw the withdrawal as weakness on Israel's part and pressed ahead with terror in order, as they saw it, to further weaken Israel.
Hezbollah did likewise after Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000, sniping away at Israel over the years, firing the occasional Katyusha and kidnapping Israelis until the final straw in 2006 with an act of war that left Israel with no choice but to respond.
The facts of the matter are that Israel is facing radical Islamists whose single-minded aim is the murder of Jews and the complete destruction of Israel. And they are trained, funded and armed by Iran. So I pose the question which no anti-Israel propagandist on these blogs or anywhere else has ever answered. How should Israel defend itself against Islamic terror?
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#235 - MarcusAureliusII
Have you considered investing in windows?
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#236 - TrueToo
Which is precisely why I was quick to correct Sarah J85 and endorse your statement. I simply qualified it by pointing out that no damages were awarded and the IDF was found to be guilty of an error of omission by failing to prevent it by Israel's own commission of enquiry.
You write "the Phalangists were instructed . . " By whom?
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To 236
How should Israel defend itself against Islamic terror?
How about not deliberately breaking the cease-fire on November the 4th so that they would have an excuse to launch this vicious and cowardly attack which so far has killed more than 300 babies alone!
The only 'terror' I can see at the moment is that being dished out by the IDF terrorists.
You pathetically try to justify Israel's criminal actions by spouting the same old nonsense about Islamists saying this and saying that, I can find just as severe language on many Zionist web sites, but the important difference is that the Zionists in Israel have the means to carry out their ugly deeds.
If as you say, Iran is training, arming and funding radical Islamists, they aren't doing a very good job are they? considering Hamas had only home made rockets which up to the start of this slaughter by the IDF had not killed a single person in seven years. In stark contrast to the $50million the USA gives Israel EACH WEEK which goes towards funding their war machine! which up to date has killed more than a thousand people in 20 days.
To repeat your question, "How should Israel defend itself against Islamic terror?"
How about negotiating with the Palestinians in good faith? a novelty for Israel I know, but it might just work.
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TT: So I pose the question which no anti-Israel propagandist on these blogs or anywhere else has ever answered. How should Israel defend itself against Islamic terror?
I love this kind of rhetoric.
All opposing opinions are propaganda. No one, ever, anywhere has offered a solution to "defending" Israel against terror. Only you, and the other advocates of violence, have the answer. And your answer: kill, kill, kill.
Crush Hamas. Crush Hezbollah. Crush the Palestinians as a people (after all, aren't they just Arabs who refuse to leave the land of the Jews?).
So what is the likely outcome of this latest round of killing? Having "neutralized" a few hundred members of Hamas (at the cost of perhaps a thousand civilian deaths) do you seriously believe the residents of Gaza will now bow their heads, admit defeat and patiently wait for Israel to determine their fate?
I would submit that the likely outcome is an increase in rage, hatred, and the desire for revenge. The deep, visceral sense of injustice that gave rise to Hamas in the initial instance will not evaporate. It will boil, fester and become more violent, more virulent, more desperate. Man by man, brick by brick, block by block Hamas, or something even worse, will rise from the ashes of Gaza.
So, how to end this death spiral? How, in your terms, to protect Israel from terror?
How's about listening to, just as an example you may find respectable, Brent Scowcroft:
Resuming the Arab-Israeli peace process is not a matter of forcing concessions from Israel or dragooning the Palestinians into surrender. Most of the elements of a settlement are already agreed as a result of the negotiations of 2000 and the “road map” of 2002. What is required is to summon the will of Arab and Israeli leaders, led by a determined American president, to forge the various elements into a conclusion that all parties have already publicly accepted in principle.
This, from 2007!
So yes, the answer is, as so many have said in so many places, that Israel must negotiate, and negotiate in good faith.
With whom, and on what terms, after this latest round of war making, God only knows. But a political solution must be found.
A vital, creative, democratic society cannot exist for long as an armed fortress engaged in a brutal, violent struggle with its neighbors. Israel is already much more Sparta than Athens. If things continue in the death spiral, Israel will become ever more indistinguishable from its enemies.
Pinko
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195. At 08:13am on 15 Jan 2009, dceilar wrote:
TT Bio Marcu
Judging by all your silence on the plight of children in Gaza I can only assume that you all condone the killings of these babies.
You make too many assumptions, all wrong and mostly insulting and abusive.
Why do you always insist on personal attacks instead of dealing with the topic under discussion?
I've been away from home and my computer all day yesterday and I've only just returned.
I still haven't read all the comments made here since my last vists.
I may or may not respond.
You have no right to draw any conclusions whatsoever from my silence.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
As with the deaths of all hostages by terrorists, the deaths of Palestinian children and babies is the direct result and consequence of Hamas' and other Palestinian terrorists activities. By using them as human shields they give the Israelis the unpalatable choice between not killing the terrorists who attack them or risking the deaths of these children when the opportunity to kill the terrorists is available. Since the IDF's primary responsiblity is to protect its own citizens, the choice is clear. In American law and in the laws of all civilized nations, Hamas and the terrorists are the murderers of these children, their actions putting them at grave risk makes them culpable. The IDF is absolved of guilt. The rest is propaganda from the Palestinain side.
The Palestinians launching rockets at Israeli homes, bombing restaurants and other acts of terror against strictly civilian targets on the other hand are clearly crimes against humanity the Palestinians are guilty of. This is why the US and EU have labeled them terrorists. That the Palestinians have elected terrorists for their government doesn't change the fact that they are terrorists one bit.
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from the war zone
Arms embargo neededAnd also From the war zone
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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195. At 08:13am on 15 Jan 2009, dceilar wrote:
TT Bio Marcu
Judging by all your silence on the plight of children in Gaza I can only assume that you all condone the killings of these babies.
You are as dishonest and deceptive as ever.
I replied to you in my comment #157.
Please answer me this:
Do you condone the use of civilians as human shields by Hamas, and do you condone the indiscriminate firing of rockets and missiles from Gaza at civilian areas of undisputed (at least undisputed under international law) Israeli territory?
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243,245
The comments from you two are getting tedious now, you know they've been answered many times and the answers wont change - THE IDF ARE VICIOUS THUGS and anyone with any sense of justice can see it.
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211. At 1:35pm on 15 Jan 2009, Jackturk wrote:
To 203
Robin, apologies, I had not seen your post prior to my last posting.
I will gladly comply with your request but prior to that, I would appreciate anyone who supports Zionist aspirations to give me their definition.
Please note, I will not automatically assume that you are a Zionist if you respond.
Another dishonest comment from Jack the Turk!
On another thread you asked me if I was a "Zionist". (as if that mattered)
I replied to the effect that I believed that Jews had the unalienable right to Israel as the national home for the Jewish people.
You said you would take that as "YES".
I'll ask you and dceilar a very simple question that I've asked before and have not received an answer to.
"Why should Israel, alone amongst all the nations on earth, have its very existence put under discussion and doubted?"
The hypocritical Ed Iglehart has already given his opinion in #208 claiming falsely that a nation's "right to exist" depends, amongst other conditions, not applicable to any other state, on its compliance with UN resolutions, but his interpretation of "right to exist" would also exclude the existence of the non-existent state of "Palestine".
Engelbert states:
I do not accept that Israel conforms to these conditions or recognises her responsibilities. I do not believe that two wrongs (Holocaust, whatever) make any sort of right, nor that a wronged people have any right to displace and dispossess any other.
Nowhere other than in the rants of the Anti-Jewish lobby can I find any reference to Israel's right being based on the Holocaust. Just another blood-libel and an attempt to blame the Jew himself for antisemitism!
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246. At 4:23pm on 16 Jan 2009, Jackturk wrote:
THE IDF ARE VICIOUS THUGS and anyone with any sense of justice can see it.
That could be taken as defamatory.
I'll take you answer as a "YES!" then. That you DO condone the use of civilians as human shields by Hamas, and you DO condone the indiscriminate firing of rockets and missiles from Gaza at civilian areas of undisputed (at least undisputed under international law) Israeli territory.
Both of which actions ARE war crimes as described under the relevant Geneva Conventions and the Lawas & Customs of war.
Off you go now... complain and censor...
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This (242) was deemed "off topic" because the Mods (who are as Gods) do not have the Godlike ability to sense implies parallels, so I must be more explicit: Blaming the victims?
Which reminds me of the blaming of the Gazans for resisting their seequestration (euphemism for beseigement/blocade/imprisonment), just as, in the past, the Palestinian natives have been blamed for being in the waySalaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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I think Israel should tell President Obama that it will agree to a cease fire IF the United States provides sufficient experts on the ground at the crossings between Egypt and Gaza and guarantees that no more arms will be smuggled into Gaza and that the United States guarantees that there will be no more rockets fired from Gaza at Israel and will take appropriate military action itself in lieu of Israel doing it to make it stop if it starts again. Short of that, Israel should tell Mr. Obama that it has to continue with its operations until it is satisfied that these objectives have been met. As for the rest of the world, they don't count. Europeans as inspectors for example would be useless as proven in Srebrenica where Dutch troops just stood around uselessly while thousands of civilians were masacred. Their excuse? Stopping it wasn't their mission. That's why Israel doesn't trust Europe, it has good reason not to.
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Which reminds me of the blaming of the Gazans...
Seek professional help!
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247
"On another thread you asked me if I was a "Zionist". (as if that mattered)
I replied to the effect that I believed that Jews had the unalienable right to Israel as the national home for the Jewish people."
Exactly, you didn't answer my question, therefore I drew my own conclusion and took it to mean that you were a Zionist but didn't want to admit it. But as I've said many times before, I accept that Zionists come in all flavours, so for the sake of the argument I will assume you are one of the cuddly ones. From now on I will refer to "Militant Zionists" so that lets you out - ok?
As you obviously haven't twigged, when I said I wouldn't automatically assume that anyone who responded to my statements was a Zionist, it was to pacify YOU because of your earlier protests.
an attempt to blame the Jew himself for antisemitism!
There's no people worse than militant Zionists for calling other Jews 'antisemitic' they also use the disgusting term 'self hating Jew' for any Jews that disagree with them, or as Marcus describes them 'stupid'
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Palestinian natives
You mean the Jews?
How Strong Is the Arab Claim to Palestine?
Before you claim it's rubbish from a "Zionist" website think about it and present some factual arguments.
Shooting the messenger is so passé and only demonstrates the weakness of your debating skills.
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Unasked Questions
Does Japan have a right to exist as a Japanese state?
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Pretty goodCertainly as good as anyone's Which messenger was that? Or was it a self-defining remark?
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therefore I drew my own conclusion
You have absolutely no right to do that. I gave you my answer, accept it and don't deliberately mis-interpret it for your own ends!
I accept that Zionists come in all flavours, so for the sake of the argument I will assume you are one of the cuddly ones.
Do not assume anything.
I assure you that you would not want to cuddle me, neither would I want to cuddle you. The mere thought makes me want to shower!
As you obviously haven't twigged, when I said I wouldn't automatically assume that anyone who responded to my statements was a Zionist, it was to pacify YOU because of your earlier protests.
The why do you still insist that I am a Zionist, albeit a "cuddly one"?
You seem well versed in taqqiya.
There's no people worse than militant Zionists for calling other Jews 'antisemitic' they also use the disgusting term 'self hating Jew' for any Jews that disagree with them, or as Marcus describes them 'stupid'
So now I'm a "militant Zionist" too?
I have never used the term 'self hating Jew'. You're getting excited, maybe you should go lie down for a while?
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245
"Do you condone the use of civilians as human shields by Hamas, and do you condone the indiscriminate firing of rockets and missiles from Gaza at civilian areas of undisputed"
What silly questions you ask, anyone with an ounce of humanity will condemn it as I do. But you are forgetting the brutality of the IDF, they don't give a jot if civilians are in the way, they kill them anyway. You've obviously conveniently forgotten some of my earlier posts:-
The 'Palestine Post' dated 15th July 1937 published an article by David Ben Gurion, a committed Zionist and one of the founders of modern Israel, in which he said:-
"The Jewish people have always regarded and will continue to regard Palestine as a whole, as a single country which is theirs in a national sense and will become theirs again. No Jew will accept partition as a just and rightful solution".
Jewish professor Israel Shahak, a survivor of Belsen and a strong critic of Zionism, wrote a book entitled "Jewish History, Jewish Religion" in which he mentions the following advice to Israeli soldiers by the then Israeli army chief chaplain, Colonel Rabbi Avidan:-
"When our forces come across civilians during a war or in hot pursuit or in a raid, so long as there is no certainty that those civilians are incapable of harming our forces, then according to the Halakhah they may and even should be killed. In war, when our forces storm the enemy, they are allowed and even enjoined by the Halakhah to kill even good civilians, that is, civilians who are ostensibly good."
To further illustrate the point, here is another selection from Professor Shahak's book which will surprise many:-
"Zionist leaders in Germany welcomed Hitler's rise to power, because they shared his belief in the primacy of 'race' and his hostility to the assimilation of Jews among 'Aryans'. They congratulated Hitler on his triumph over the common enemy - the forces of liberalism".
Please don't tell me the Israelis say civilians are not targeted intentionally, they are bound to say that, otherwise they would lay themselves open to charges of breaking article 33 of the Geneva Convention. You should look at what they do and not what they say. We know from the past that no matter how polished and presentable Israeli spokespeople are, they also tell lies.
Israeli minister Meir Shitreet admitted to the BBCs Mark Urban that even if they had known innocent women and children were in the UN building they would still have fired on it* because according to him it was being used by Hamas and it was therefore a legitimate target. This goes to show the brutality of the Israelis.
*In fact the IDF did know that there were women and children in the building because the UN told them and even gave them the co-ordinates
I can 100% guarantee that if Israeli soldiers had been held captive in that building, there is no way that they would have shelled it. Thereby demonstrating that in the eyes of Israelis, innocent Palestinian lives are worthless compared to those of Israelis.
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Still awaiting an answer to this:
Please answer me this:
Do you condone the use of civilians as human shields by Hamas, and do you condone the indiscriminate firing of rockets and missiles from Gaza at civilian areas of undisputed (at least undisputed under international law) Israeli territory?
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What silly questions you ask, anyone with an ounce of humanity will condemn it as I do. But you are forgetting the brutality of the IDF...
I'll take that as a "NO" then.
(goose - gander)
"Zionist leaders in Germany welcomed Hitler's rise to power, because they shared his belief in the primacy of 'race' and his hostility to the assimilation of Jews among 'Aryans'. They congratulated Hitler on his triumph over the common enemy - the forces of liberalism".
Still with the "Zionist" shtick?!
This time bordering on Holocaust denial.
Please don't tell me the Israelis say civilians are not targeted intentionally
That is exactly what I am telling you.
We know from the past that no matter how polished and presentable Israeli spokespeople are, they also tell lies.
How exactly do you know that?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,479940,00.html
The United Nations agency that administers a school in Gaza where dozens of civilians were killed by Israeli mortar fire last week has admitted to employing terrorists to work at its Palestinian schools in the past, has no system in place to keep members of Hamas or Islamic Jihad off its payroll, and provides textbooks to children that contain hate speech and other incendiary information.
A notebook captured by Israeli officials at the UNRWA school in the Kalandia refugee camp several years ago glorified homicide bombers and other terrorists. Called "The Star Team," it profiled so-called "martyrs," Palestinians who had died either in homicide bombings or during armed struggle with Israel. On the book's back cover was printed the UNRWA emblem, as well as a photo of a masked gunman taking aim while on one knee.
http://www.jewishpolicycenter.org/article/53
There have also been widespread reports of terrorism from UNRWA-supervised facilities, including sniper attacks from UNRWA-run schools, bomb and arms factories in UNRWA camps, the transport of terrorists to their target zones in UNRWA ambulances, and even UNRWA employees directly tied to terrorist attacks against civilians.
Nidal Abd al-Fattah Abdallah Nazzal, an ambulance driver for UNRWA from Kalqiliya in the West Bank, was arrested by Israeli security services in August 2002. Nidal admitted that he was a Hamas activist and that he had transported weapons and explosives to terrorists in his ambulance, taking advantage of the freedom of movement afforded to UNRWA vehicles by the Israelis.
Nahd Rashid Ahmad Atallah, a senior official of UNRWA in the Gaza Strip, was also arrested by Israeli security in August 2002. In his capacity as an UNRWA official, he provided support to families of wanted Fatah and PFLP terrorists. He used his UNRWA car to transport armed members of the "Popular Resistance Committees," a militant faction of the Fatah movement, to carry out attacks against Israeli troops at the Karni Crossing.
...UNRWA also appears to be in the business of cultivating new terrorists. The New York Times exposed in 2000 that UNRWA allowed terrorist groups to use their schools as "summer camps" so that 25,000 Palestinian children could receive paramilitary training, including instructions on how to prepare Molotov cocktails and roadside bombs.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231950855726&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
'Jerusalem Post':
"'Shelling of UNRWA building was response to anti-tank fire'"
[Extract]:
"Palestinian reports said that the IDF hit a multi-story media building that houses several media outlets, including Reuters, Al Arabiya and the BBC. Witnesses said that a Qatari journalist was wounded and that the building was evacuated.
"Defense officials said Hamas operatives had barricaded themselves inside the press office in Gaza, and were using people there as human shields. There were 23 people inside, said the officials. "
The BBC reported that the IAF killed Hamas' interior minister and head of the Executive Force.
What they didn't report is this:
There have been several high-profile examples of terrorists being employed by UNRWA. Former top Islamic Jihad rocket maker Awad Al-Qiq, who was killed in an Israeli air strike last May, was the headmaster and science instructor at an UNRWA school in Rafah, Gaza. Said Siyam, Hamas' interior minister and head of the Executive Force, was a teacher for over two decades in UNRWA schools.
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257
Your posts are getting more desperate by the day, anyone else but you can see that I answered your 258 question.
I and others will also note your childish attempts to continue to defend the brutal actions of the IDF.
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To 259
By the way, the '257' in my post 260 is a clue to where you can find my answer.
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Jack the Turk (Tedium is his middle name):
246:
The comments from you two are getting tedious now
260:
Your posts are getting more desperate by the day
So ignore them. You really aren't obliged to respond to absolutely everything everybody writes here you know.
I and others note your attempts to continue to defend the brutal actions of Hamas. We must take that as meaning you support them.
_________________
Perhaps Mr Lustig would like to comment on this?
http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2009/01/16/bbc-silent-about-being-terrorized-in-gaza-discretion-or-cowardice/
Israeli media reports that Hamas took over the first floor of the building that the BBC offices in Gaza last night and fired rockets from there, trapping the journalists above. Despite the fact that their reporters have now escaped the building, the BBC has so far not said anything about this.
Should we use dceilar's method and take the silence to mean it's true?
Which begs the question as to why the BBC reported the Israeli hit on the press center but omitted to mention that they were held hostage there as human shields by the terrorists.
Outing the truth is so tedious, I know, but somebody has to do it, and the British telly-tax payer pays the BBC to do it.
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Jack the Turk, yet again [yawn]:
The 'Palestine Post' dated 15th July 1937 published an article by David Ben Gurion, a committed Zionist and one of the founders of modern Israel, in which he said...
Ah yes, The 'Palestine Post'. A timely reminder about exactly who was known as "Palestinians" prior to 1948, and prior to the invention of the "PLO".
A search of The New York Times archives, for example, will find many instances of references to "Palestinian delegations" and the like as far back as the 1920s and before, all of course referring to Jews who lived in what is now known as The State of Israel.
Give it a rest Jack, remember Martin Luther King:
"When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You're talking anti-Semitism."
Shabbat Shalom!
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To 262
Whatever you say, whatever sources you sight, however many times you repeat your ludicrous points you will never ever be able to justify the more than 1100 killings that have been carried out by the IDF in Gaza and your attempts to do so are contemptible.
Congratulations to Gerald Kaufman for having the courage to speak out.
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To Jack the Turk:
Your 264 is not a reply to my 262. Will the BBC confirm or deny that (a) rockets were fired from within the building it uses as a press center and (b) that BBC employees were used as human shields/held hostage while such alleged rocket fire was taking place?
It's "cite" not "sight".
I'm not trying to justify anything.
How many of the (allegedly) 1100 are Hamas "fighters"?
I'm not interested in anything Mr Kaufman says, but without even knowing what he (allegedly) said I'll defend his right to do so.
Shabbat Shalom!
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To265
There is no allegedly about it.
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Sir Gerald Kaufman is a major spokesman for British Jews and a longstanding Member of Parliament.
He is an honourable man
May God Bless him
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#245 Bio
You did reply in your post #157. Many apologies.
Do you condone the use of civilians as human shields by Hamas, and do you condone the indiscriminate firing of rockets and missiles from Gaza at civilian areas
Of course I do not condone the use of civilians and rockets for the same reasons I'm appalled by the killings in Gaza. Why am I more vocal about the killings in Gaza? The numbers speak for themselves.
Why should Israel, alone amongst all the nations on earth, have its very existence put under discussion and doubted?
You support the non-existence (or eradication) of Palestine and now imply that the existence of Israel shouldn't be questioned! And you called Ed a hypocrite!
If you want peace support the pre-1967 borders.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
"If you are a bad person, a whining enemy or a strong-arm occupier, you are not my brother, even if you are circumcised, observe the Sabbath, and do mitzvahs. If your scarf covers every hair on your head for modesty, you give alms and do charity, but what is under your scarf is dedicated to the sanctity of Jewish land, taking precedence over the sanctity of human life, whosoever life that is, then you're are not my sister. You might be my enemy. A good Arab or a righteous gentile will be a brother or sister to me. A wicked man, even of Jewish descent, is my adversary, and I would stand on the other side of the barricade and fight him to the end."
- Jewish National Fund Chairman, Avraham Burg
Yet another voice that has been censored and ignored by his own government. Since the beginning of the offensive in Gaza, over 700 Israelis have been arrested by their own government. (Neve Gordon, chair of the Department of Politics and Government at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev).
Why is this not being reported?
I find it particularly troubling that Israelis who call for an end to this war and oppose their government's actions are dismissed, censored, declared to be not real Jews, or worse, arrested and barred from entering their own country.
Yet despite the Israeli government's best efforts to undermine the state's supposed democracy, the list of those who oppose the war is growing longer. How much longer can Israel suppress the rights of its own citizens to have the freedom of speech?
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Apparantly the Palestinians haven't had enough yet.
From BBC; "Militants also continue to fire rockets from Gaza into Israel. About 10 were launched on Friday..."
But Isreal's resolve is fading just as it always does.
Also from BBC; "Israeli ministers are set to vote on a unilateral ceasefire proposal at the weekend, Israeli officials say, amid signs of diplomatic movement on Gaza."
They are making the same bad mistake they always make and the US makes too. They are going to stop fighting before the battle is over even though they are winning but before the stated objectives have been achieved. They are in effect giving up. Their critics will have won. How utterly disgusting I find it. If Western civilization disappears, it will be due to lack of political will to prevail, not lack of means.
Further in BBC's article; "The news comes after Israel and the US signed a deal to halt the smuggling of arms into Gaza - a key Israeli demand."
If the Israelis have even one shred of brains at all, they should wait until the instruments to stop the smuggling are in place and there is assurance that they are working. Their condition that the rocket attacks stop should also be unconditional. How foolish they are. Lebanon 2006 all over again. Olmert and his bunch are traitors and fools. Who knows if Natanyahu would be any smarter.
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To 263
Give it a rest Jack, remember Martin Luther King:
"When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You're talking anti-Semitism."
Please provide a source for the above
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Jack,
Sadly, it is genuine MLK.
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Ah, yes. The same Netanyahu who proclaimed this in 1989, then serving as Deputy Foreign Minister of Israel:
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Binyamin Netanyahu
Fortunately one cannot erase everything in history, particularly the strong and self-incriminating words of one Mr Netanyahu, spoken while serving in public office.
Perhaps the only benefit of bringing Netanyahu to power again is that the Israeli government's true intentions in its war on Gaza and ultimately, its "policy" towards "peace" with the Palestinians, will become crystal clear.
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To Ed
Apparently there is confusion over whether or not he said it, there don't seem to be any written accounts and there aren't any recordings.
Somebody 'said' he said it.
But maybe FirstBio has irrefutable evidence.
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http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=8&x_nameinnews=127&x_article=369
We must inform you that "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend" (see at bottom of alert) allegedly written by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., is apparently a hoax, although, the basic message of the letter was indeed, without question, spoken by Martin Luther King, Jr. in a 1968 appearance at Harvard, where he said: "When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You are talking anti-Semitism.![ from “The Socialism of Fools: The Left, the Jews and Israel” by Seymour Martin Lipset; in Encounter magazine, December 1969, p. 24. ].
...
Since the message of the letter (anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism) was one Martin Luther King, Jr. had indeed articulated, we can understand why the King family and the ADL did not feel the need to verify the "Letter to an anti-Zionist friend." This episode is a reminder of the importance of verifying the authenticity and accuracy of sources, even when they appear to be solid.
Below is a January 21, 2002 op-ed by U.S. Rep. John Lewis, who worked closely with Dr. King. In the op-ed, he shares Dr. King's views on Israel, views which stressed Israel's democratic nature and Israel's need for security. And he also relates that Dr. King said, "When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism."
This quotation has been confirmed, so you should feel assured that you can use the quotation in letters. Just be sure to mention that it came from Dr. King's 1968 Harvard University appearance, so that no one will think it is from the debunked "letter."
The op-ed by Congressman Lewis appears below, and the hoax letter follows.
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238. threnodio,
Yes, I saw and appreciated your correction of Sarah J85's rant. Re the instructions, here's what Sharon wrote:
….Thursday, September 16, I met in my office with Raful Eytan, who briefed me on the move into West Beirut. Meanwhile, the Phalangists who would be going into Sabra and Shatilla were at Amir Drori's headquarters, finalising the co-ordination and completing their preparations. Among other things, they were instructed to be careful in their identification of the PLO terrorists. The mission was only against them. Civilian residents, they were specifically instructed, were not to be harmed.
Warrior Ariel Sharon p. 504.
200. Jackturk wrote:
I notice however you didn't mention the 'Qibya Massacre' where forces under Sharon's command slaughtered 69 unarmed Palestinians.
Since you bring it up, you didn't mention that the raid was not directed against civilians, but against terrorists, and was a reprisal raid for the terrorist killing of a Jewish mother and her two children. You're pretty good at omitting things. You also omitted this testimony from Ariel Sharon:
In his autobiography Warrior (1987) he wrote:
I couldn't believe my ears. As I went back over each step of the operation, I began to understand what must have happened. For years Israeli reprisal raids had never succeeded in doing more than blowing up a few outlying buildings, if that. Expecting the same, some Arab families must have stayed in their houses rather than running away. In those big stone houses [...] some could easily have hidden in the cellars and back rooms, keeping quiet when the paratroopers went in to check and yell out a warning. The result was this tragedy that had happened.
Funny, you must have seen that since it was just above this other bit that you quote:
Original documents of the time showed that Sharon personally ordered his troops to achieve "maximal killing and damage to property". Post-operational reports speak of breaking into houses and clearing them with grenades and shooting.[17]
Reference 17 is to Benny Morris. Be interesting to see his evidence on those "original documents."
So no, Ariel Sharon is not a thug, as you insist. In fact, he was instrumental in defending Israel against relentless Arab terror. I see you find that difficult to handle.
239. Jackturk,
More omissions and obfuscation from you, I see.
Somehow you forgot about Hamas breaking the ceasefire by tunnelling under the fence to kidnap more Israeli soldiers and placing explosives at the fence.
And you make ridiculous statements that prove you either know very little about this conflict or are deliberately omitting facts:
considering Hamas had only home made rockets which up to the start of this slaughter by the IDF had not killed a single person in seven years.
Tell that to the families of those killed by Hamas rockets. And by the suicide bombings, of course.
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268. At 8:12pm on 16 Jan 2009, dceilar wrote:
#245 Bio
Why am I more vocal about the killings in Gaza? The numbers speak for themselves.
Why indeed? If it's numbers that count then compare with these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan#Casualties
Jordanians killing Palestinians don't worry you that much?
"Why should Israel, alone amongst all the nations on earth, have its very existence put under discussion and doubted?"
Well? Answer the question.
You support the non-existence (or eradication) of Palestine...
Nowhere have I ever said such a thing!
I'm getting tired of your lies and slanderous accusations.
I DEMAND an apology!
And you called Ed a hypocrite!
The pair of you are dishonest, deceitful nasty pieces of work. In fact I wonder if your one and the same sock-puppets.
Outrageous!
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267. At 7:48pm on 16 Jan 2009, Ed Iglehart wrote:
Sir Gerald Kaufman is a major spokesman for British Jews...
He is no such thing!
He is an MP but has no mandate to speak for British Jews.
I closed my browser window as soon as I saw the title of that video. He, like some here, obviously hasn't read the EU Definition of Antisemitism:
Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
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To 276
As I said, somebody 'said' he said it.
I see you used CAMERA, the pro-Israeli organisation, as a source, hardly the most reliable repository for unbiased information.
Maybe you didn't know that five of their people were sanctioned by Wikipedia for being involved in a secret campaign to re-write Palestinian history!
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To279
I closed my browser window as soon as I saw the title of that video.
The truth to a militant Zionist is like daylight to a vampire!
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Bio
Well then, you agree with the existence of a viable Palestinian State based on the pre-1967 borders (anything else is not viable). Perhaps you can direct me to a previous post of yours that states this. Then I will supply an apology.
In #245 I said: Why am I more vocal about the killings in Gaza? The numbers speak for themselves.
Bio's reply:
Jordanians killing Palestinians don't worry you that much?
Talk about changing the subject because you are losing the argument Biological. Was it you, or some other nut, who posted on why don't the Jordanians help their Arab brothers, the Palestinians, more? Well this explains one of the reasons why the Palestinians still themselves as refugees and want to return home!
I've already answered that question you've written in bold. Twice.
Shalom
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Ed and Jackturk
Thanks for the links to the Kaufman story and the Parliament website to e-mail him. I wrote to him giving my support. This is what I wrote:
I had to let you know that I wholly support your stance on Israel and her latest incursion into Gaza. I find it upsetting that Jewish victims of the Nazis have died and now to find that Israel is throwing that 'worst fear that can ever be thrown' onto the people of Gaza.
The manner in which this invasion has gone about with no regard for civilian life and especially children's lives is appalling and unacceptable. Recently a Cardinal in the Vatican compared Gaza to a concentration camp. I thought he was going too far at first, but, the more I learnt of the conditions there the only conclusion I could come to was that the whole Gaza Strip is a prison. People living there are lacking the most basic of amenities. I would dread to think, if someone took my home from me and forced me to live in that prison, what I would do.
We see the highly trained and heavily armed IDF 'blow up' these militants in the most heavily populated place on the planet whilst accusing Hamas of 'using civilians as cover'. Are there any fields in Gaza for Hamas to use? If there are would we be surprised if they didn't use them? Where can the civilians run to for safety? Even those children who haven't been killed or injured are suffering. I've been reading accounts of children and young adults wetting themselves continuously. One cannot imagine the future traumas for these poor ones.
What good or goal does Israel expect to achieve with this war? Do they think killing civilians and children in this way is going to stop Palestinian and Arab violence against Israel? Sadly I believe they do know. They want the Palestinians to resort to violence as it undermines their claims for a return to their homes. That, sadly, is the only conclusion I can come to. We must push all the parties involved to support the Green Line and plead with Israel that peace is made by talking to the enemy.
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273. At 9:04pm on 16 Jan 2009, Ed Iglehart wrote:
Jack,
Sadly, it is genuine MLK.
Yeah, sad isn't it, that can't continue to discredit the truth?
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Should be that you/we can't continue to discredit the truth...
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281. At 9:57pm on 16 Jan 2009, Jackturk wrote:
"The truth to a militant Zionist is like daylight to a vampire!"
Still ignoring Mr Lustig's polite request to desist from throwing the "Zionist" thing around as an insult.
"Militant" even!
Like Derek Hatton?
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#265 Bio again
I'm not interested in anything Mr Kaufman says, but without even knowing what he (allegedly) said I'll defend his right to do so.
FWIW I'll defend your right to do so too.
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282. At 10:35pm on 16 Jan 2009, dceilar wrote:
Bio
Well then, you agree with the existence of a viable Palestinian State based on the pre-1967 borders
Once and for all; STOP PUTTING YOUR WORDS IN MY MOUTH [spit!]
(anything else is not viable).
That's only your opinion
Perhaps you can direct me to a previous post of yours that states this. Then I will supply an apology.
It's up to you to direct me to a previous post where I give you good reason to say "You support the non-existence (or eradication) of Palestine....
That is an outrageous libel!
In #245 I said: Why am I more vocal about the killings in Gaza? The numbers speak for themselves.
Bio's reply:
Jordanians killing Palestinians don't worry you that much?
Here are the numbers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan#Casualties
Casualties
Estimates of the number of the people killed in the ten days of Black September range from three thousand to more than five thousand, although exact numbers are unknown. The Palestinian death toll in 11 days of fighting was estimated by jordan at 3,400, though Arafat claimed that 20,000 had been killed.[13] The Western reporters were concentrated at the Intercontinental Hotel, away from the action. Nasser's state-controlled Voice of the Arabs from Cairo reported genocide.
Numbers do indeed speak for themselves. What do the numbers above say to you?
Israel has incurred fewer casualties in a longer time, and we still have no iidea of the number of "fighters" killed in Gaza at this time.
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282. At 10:35pm on 16 Jan 2009, dceilar wrote:
I've already answered that question you've written in bold. Twice.
No you haven't.
Here it is again:
"Why should Israel, alone amongst all the nations on earth, have its very existence put under discussion and doubted?"
A clear and concise answer please, so we can all understand it.
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#289 Bio
I refer the unhonourable gentleman to the reply I gave at #268 & that it was a State founded by terrorism. Yes Terrorism. Those terrorists, or Zionists, even killed Jews, and booby trapped the bodies of Brits they hung.
Shalom
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290
Your #268:
You support the non-existence (or eradication) of Palestine and now imply that the existence of Israel shouldn't be questioned!
That isn't an answer, it's a repetition of your libel against me, for which I'm still expecting either indisputable proof that I said that which you falsely accuse me of saying, or an unconditional apology.
Or else I'm seriously considering taking the matter further. Much further.
Either way I'm sure others here can draw their own conclusions regarding your honesty.
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My point at #268
You support the non-existence (or eradication) of Palestine and now imply that the existence of Israel shouldn't be questioned!
shows you to be a hypocrite.
Or else I'm seriously considering taking the matter further. Much further.
Grow up! Do you support the existence of a viable Palestine or not?
Considering it was YOU who said that the issue is not about you or me! You are a joke.
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It's interesting to see the current face of European Nazism as it exists today first hand on the internet. If you didn't know any better, their insidious presence can at times seem almost rational. But it's clear what they are and who they are. It is certainly not surprising though. I saw it first hand 35 years ago when I lived in Europe. It is tolerated by other Europeans and of course utterly repugnant to almost any American such as this one who sees it for what it is. Small wonder European public opinion and government policy carries no weight in Israel and none in America anymore either. The greatest danger they pose is of clouding our own moral compass through an instinct to consider the other person's opinion and give it some weight. But in this case there can be little doubt and to take even one step in that direction is a grave error. Firstbiodegradable, wake up. These people and their kind want you and all Jews everywhere dead. They hate America because it gives unwavering support to Israel. The only thing to do is to reject what they say, don't be diverted by their arguments, know who your enemies are, and understand that the only way wars are won is not by winning incouragable hearts and minds filled with hate but by finding and killing the enemy faster and more efficiently than he can find and kill you. To this end, Israel should continue on undeterred. All this nonsense about a Palestinian state is dangerous. Should such a monstrous thing ever come into existance, it would be a terrorist state one step closer to the ultimate destruction of Israel.
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To 283
Nice letter DC, I think that Gerald Kaufmann is going to be severely attacked by the militant Zionists for daring to speak the truth, if True Too and FirstBio are anything to go by. I hope he is in the vanguard of other brave Jews who will come forward as he has.
I sense in the militant Zionists a seething hatred of anyone who disagrees with them, which in their primitive minds somehow justifies or refuses to condemn the brutality of the present Israeli regime and even allows them to see thugs like Sharon and Netanyahu as heroes.
They have scant compassion for the innocent people in Gaza and merely see them as collateral damage on the way to obtaining their ends - full occupation of the whole of Palestine.
No wonder there is no sign of peace in the Middle East.
They remind me of the militant Afrikaans leader Eugene Terre'Blanche, one of the biggest obstacles to wiping out apartheid in South Africa, who is now in jail for his crimes.
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Jack
Thanks.
I thought Kaufman will need all the support he can get, especially judging by some recent comments on this blog!
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#277 - TrueToo
Thank you. I am actually inclined to believe Sharon's version. Even so, his admission that he was in a position to 'instruct' the Phalangists in matters of conduct and did not foresee the possibility that they would disregard those instructions is, at best, naive and, at worst, irresponsible.
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#293 Marcus
In a previous post you said that you don't even believe in God! David Cunard has already exposed you as an avid Daily Mail reader, and you spend most your time on the BBC website!! One wonders whether you are based in America at all!!
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292. At 00:03am on 17 Jan 2009, dceilar wrote:
My point at #268
You support the non-existence (or eradication) of Palestine
Where did I say that, or anything remotely similar? I'm still waiting.
shows you to be a hypocrite.
Shows you to be a liar, because I have never said such a thing.
Do you support the existence of a viable Palestine or not?
Why are you asking me this question if you still maintain that I have said that "[I] support the non-existence (or eradication) of Palestine"?
Show me where I said that or apologise.
Considering it was YOU who said that the issue is not about you or me!
Quite. yet you insist on personalising the debate and insulting me personally and falsely accusing me of making statements that I have never made.
It's not a joke. I take it very seriously indeed that you not only deliberately misinterpret my words, but now you even sink to the depths of inventing statements I have never made.
Your answer at least is clear, as far as it goes; you don't believe that Israel, alone amongst all the nations on earth, has a right to exist.
Therefore you support the declared policy of Hamas, ie: the total destruction of the state of Israel.
There, don't you feel better now that's off your chest?
I have more respect for someone who comes right out with their hatred than somebody like you and your sock-puppet Jack the Turk who try to hide it behind all this nonsense about "Zionism".
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294. At 00:08am on 17 Jan 2009, Jack the Turk, aka dceilar, wrote:
... is going to be severely attacked by the militant Zionists... I sense in the militant Zionists a seething hatred... the brutality of the present Israeli regime... thugs like Sharon and Netanyahu...
Still not respecting Mr Lustig's request I see. How rude of you to be so inconsiderate to your host on this blog.
Re: They [Sharon and Netanyahu I presume] have scant compassion for the innocent people in Gaza and merely see them as collateral damage on the way to obtaining their ends - full occupation of the whole of Palestine.
That's the same Sharon who evacuated Gaza years ago and left it free of Jews for the Palestinians?
... on the way to obtaining their ends - full occupation of the whole of Palestine.
That's straight out of the Hamas Charter, isn't it?
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To 293
You have a cheek to talk about a moral compass whilst urging the IDF to continue their slaughter in Gaza.
At last You have put your cards on the table and urged the wiping out of the Palestinian state, I am astonished that the moderator has let your post sully this blog.
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293. At 00:04am on 17 Jan 2009, MarcusAureliusII:
It's interesting to see the current face of European Nazism as it exists today first hand on the internet... Firstbiodegradable, wake up. These people and their kind want you and all Jews everywhere dead.
I am awake and well aware of it, in fact I've commented on it here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/markurban/2009/01/israels_gaza_news_management.html#comment45
Their problem is that they can't handle the idea of Jews defending themselves. They claim to feel for victims of the Holocaust while hoping the next one will come soon and they hate the idea of Jews defending themselves.
Here, for Mr Lustig, are the opinions of a real live Israeli. No need to imagine what an Israeli would think, there are plenty out there expressing themselves without a trace of hatred or hysteria.
Why We Choose Us
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
To 302
Marcus, grow up and stop being so childish, I hope the moderator also sees the funny side.
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#298 Bio
And you accused ME of putting words in YOUR mouth!!
Of all the many posts you have made here and elsewhere I have seen one line from you refuses to condone the present killing in Gaza! I'll let the readers work that out themselves.
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the wiping out of the Palestinian state
To paraphrase Al Capone, "Palestine? I don't even know what street that's on!"
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304. At 01:00am on 17 Jan 2009, dceilar, or maybe it was JackTurkey wrote:
#298 Bio
Of all the many posts you have made here and elsewhere I have seen one line from you refuses to condone the present killing in Gaza! I'll let the readers work that out themselves.
Calm down, I can feel the spittle on your lips and your typing is making no sense.
Try again.
If you're saying I don't condone the killing of civilians, you're right. I've said that and you even apologized for claiming that I hadn't said it.
I actually said that I don't condone the killing of children in Gaza, but unlike you I don't believe they were deliberately targeted.
Too nuanced for you?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The Israeli government is pathetic. It will lose its stomach for a war it is winning sooner than the Palestinians who are badly losing.
Like America, in the battle against terrorism, it does not have the political will to persevere, the will to survive. Talk of Israel seeking a truce is only one step removed from talk of surrender. Why should the Palestinians give up? All they have to do is wait America and Israel out. The grimmer the photos on TV, the louder the shouting for a successful battle to be brought to an end. The Palestinians know exactly how to play Western public opinion and politics. Good thing they don't know how to fight...yet.
Is Israel still awarding the enemy those three hour cease fires every day? Were it not for the looming election of Natanyahu, Olmert would surely have surrendered already.
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Goodnight DC I'm away.
I'll leave these words from Gerald Kaufmann ringing in the ears of the militant Zionists.
"The Israelis are not just war criminals they're fools"
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Jackturk 309, finally something we agree on. If they weren't fools, they'd have wiped out all of those planning and acting to kill them a long time ago. By endlessly allowing them one more chance after another, eventually they will succeed.
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Which Countries Have State Religions?
For 188 independent countries in 2000, 72 had no state religion in the years 2000, 1970, and 1900; 58 had a state religion at all three dates; and 58 had some kind of transition. Among the 58 transitional countries, 12 had two transitions, 4 of which (former Soviet Republics in Asia) involved two forms of state religion.
State religions are not unusual. Just about every Arab state is a self declared Muslim state. However only one state has declared itself Jewish. In dceilar's, or maybe it's Jack the Turkey's mind, apparently, one too many.
FYI
Countries which recognize Islam as their official religion
Self-declared. Is there any other kind
Islam without specifying sect
Afghanistan (State religion)
Algeria
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Brunei
Egypt (State religion)
Iran (State religion)
Iraq
Jordan
Kuwait
Libya
Maldives (State religion)
Mauritania
Morocco
Oman
Pakistan (State religion)
Qatar
Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic (State religion)
Saudi Arabia (Religion of the Kingdom)
Somalia
Somaliland (religion of the nation)
Tunisia
United Arab Emirates (Religion of the Kingdom)
Yemen
Sunni Islam
Algeria
Malaysia
Pakistan (as National-sanctioned religion)
Saudi Arabia (as state-sanctioned religion)
Somalia
Shi'a Islam
Iran (as state-sanctioned religion)
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
FB, soon you will be able to add all of the countries in EUrabia to that list. Britain and France are on the cusp already. The Danes tried to resist but it is hopeless for them. Italy is scared to death.
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If Israel stops now, Hamas has won.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7834710.stm
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Blatant propaganda; the manipulation of historical facts; discrediting each and every information source except ones known publicly as pro-Israeli; derogatory comments towards all Palestinians that extends to rampant racism against all Arabs... each of these actions, all utterly deplorable; and yet the effect has been simple: they have supported in the unraveling of Israeli propaganda.
Mr Lustig has made a noble effort in trying to showcase both the Israeli and Palestinian perspective. Yet I would argue that any Israeli citizen who has so much as tried to disagree with what is propagated by the Israeli government has faced dire consequences: Jonathan Ben-Artzi (nephew of Binyamin Netanyahu) was jailed for his beliefs; Jeff Halper (Israeli peace activist) was imprisoned for travelling to Gaza as part of the Free Gaza Movement; Uri Avnery (journalist and peace activist) faced an assassination attempt and a settler activist's call to the IDF to carry out his killing; and Yitzhak Rabin (former Israeli PM) was assassinated for signing the Oslo Accords directed towards a peace process.
This is but a fraction of Israeli citizens, and prominent ones at that, who have faced persecution... for simply disagreeing with the government's actions...?? More appropriately: they have been persecuted for attempting to reveal the truth.
Despite such efforts, not all aspects of history can be rewritten. And those who seek the truth shall find it.
Here are but a few stark reminders from various Israeli leaders of Israel's true intentions for "peace"... which essentially amounts to the mass expulsion and mass killing of all Palestinians:
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948
"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
- Yitzhak Shamir (as Israeli Prime Minister, 1988)
"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the Jewish settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them."
- Ariel Sharon (as Israeli Foreign Minister, 1998)
"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
- Ariel Sharon (as Israeli Prime Minister, 2001)
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#314. MarcusAureliusII wrote:
"If Israel stops now, Hamas has won."
Not a way of wining I would have chosen.
But on the other hand it is nice to see that you have at last began to understand about the fundamental futility of waging war when the eventual agreement has to be political.
In the end the human rights of the 'vanquished' have to be acknowledged even by the most hard line neocon. (Just as I have pointed out to you many times before.) This is why the USA lost the Vietnam War and something you Americans forget too easily to both your cost and that of others.
You and your country could achieve so much more by cooperative ventures rather than military ones and at a far smaller cost in both dollars and peoples lives. I fervently hope that you Nation learns the lessons of history.
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Can't there be more than one type of different denominational temples in the same city for people of different religions to peacefully pray to their chosen man / woman / spiritual entity.
I believe Ganesha the elephant headed Hindu God represents education and meditation on Ganesha creates internal balance.
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Kali is the God of Destruction or Death and should be avoided. (I am not a hindu btw)
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Site swalowed the comment. Trying again, without HTML.
296. threnodio,
That is why Sharon lost his post as Minister of Defence. 'Warrior' pp. 504-509 has his version of events. It ain't possible, of course, to reproduce it here.
By way of contrast, I'll point out to the Israel-haters on this blog that hell would freeze over before the Palestinians would hold their leaders to account in the way that the Israelis held Sharon to account over Sabra and Shatilla.
316. John_from_Hendon,
What would YOU do to stop the rocket attacks from Hamas and Islamic Jihad on UNDISPUTED areas of Israel?
Are you aware that Hamas' proudly declared goal is the murder of Jews and the complete destruction of Israel? What do you think Israel should do about this?
281. Jackturk
294. Jackturk
I note you have no comment on my comment 277. I thought you might be big enough to admit you were wrong about Israel breaking the ceasefire and about your ignorant claim that Hamas rockets had not killed any Israelis in seven years. I see I was wrong.
Instead, you come up with childish insults of the "My daddy's stronger than your daddy" variety. This poor attempt to deflect attention from your inability to acknowledge that you are wrong fools nobody.
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#319 TT
What would YOU do to stop the rocket attacks from Hamas and Islamic Jihad
By talking to the enemy.
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Because it refuses to recognise the responsibilities corresponding to membership of the community of nations, to wit:1. Compliance with the rules and obligations of UN membership.
2. Compliance with the resolutions of the UN.
3. Common decency.
......
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#319. TrueToo wrote:
I second #320's response in answer to the question that you posed me .
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Here's a map, Al..Complain about this comment
The Good, The Bad, The Ugly & The Crazy
Scalp 'dem scalp 'dem and hang 'dem up high
Indians from all direction
Surround the whole of them in the Grand Canyon
Brush up John Wayne and the one Lee Van
Wild Apache come to distress
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322. John_from_Hendon,
You are both ducking and diving. How much more proof do you need that Hamas has no intention of talking about anything other than Israel committing suicide?
Why should Israel discuss its own destruction with Hamas?
Meanwhile, the BBC reporter who made it into Gaza through Rafah yesterday has been predictably obedient to the BBC's censorship: not one word about Hamas.
Quite a remarkable achievement when you think about it: the BBC has managed entire reports without once mentioning the terrorists responsible for the chaos in Gaza. This article is the latest in a long line of them:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7834419.stm
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A better map, signed by Moshe Dayan
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So we are NOW DOWN TO WAR
CRIMES LETS HOPE THERES
PROSECUTIONS?
It wont be long now before there is
retaliation on the streets of Europe
and the USA.
Maybe then the respective
governments will put the BRAKES on
the Israelis??
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The solution to the problem is clearly military. It's a matter of political will. This is why America won World War II and has not won a war since (except maybe in Serbia.) Had the US been unwilling to inflict large numbers of civilian casualties on the Axis civilians, the Allies would have lost. Time to relearn this lesson. Whatever it takes for Israel to win, it should do. No other consideration is in the interest of its citizens, that interest being the Israeli government's only legitimate concern. Time to stop hoping the world will understand it and care about it. It understands it but couldn't care less if every last Israeli were killed by Arab terrorists. Only America is its true ally. That is why Europe hates America. That hate is proof America is on the right course.
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From which:Q.E.D.
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post 328 Marcus
I assume you would like that "HATE" to be directed at yourself then?
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alexandercurzon #330
It already is and always has been. I lived in Europe and saw it first hand 30 years ago. How do you think I formed my current opinions. The Anti-Americanism that was always present that Schroeder and Chirac cynically exploited to win re-elections when they were behind in the polls and which became an overt feature of European culture only reinforced my views and reminded me of what I had seen. President Bush did not make any new enemies for America, he merely revealed that those we thought were friends were false friends, in reality enemies. Better to know the ugly truth than continue pretending otherwise. America is at war with Europe in all ways except militarily already. Time to start using some of its soft power more forcefully in that battle. The financial disaster turned out to be a massive torpedo right on target.
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326. At 1:16pm on 17 Jan 2009, Ed Iglehart wrote:
A better map, signed by Moshe Dayan
Indeed it was, and you omit to mention that it was one of many rejected by the Arabs.
Note also the footnote:
THIS MAP MUST NOT BE CONSIDERED AN AUTHORITY ON THE DELIMITATION OF INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARIES
Why do people bother dragging out all these old maps and agreements signed by Israel without also pointing out that the Arabs rejected them all?
Could it be with the intention to deceive and distort facts? Surely not!
Remember that Hamas has declared repeatedly that it will not respect ANY previous agreement.
.............
329. At 1:37pm on 17 Jan 2009, Ed Iglehart wrote:
"However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."
Q.E.D.
Care to name another country against which criticism has been leveled similar similar to that which is leveled against Israel?
That includes the same level of lies and libels, demonisation and threats of destruction of that state.
Once again accusations have been made here against Ariel Sharon in terms of war crimes etc.
Let's compare those levels of criticism with other incidents similar to Sabra and Shatila:
Sbrenica: 2-3,000 boys and men, including the very youngest and the very oldest marched into the woods and shot dead in front of pre-prepared mass graves. All under the watchful eyes of the Dutch troops of the UN, who actually assisted in marching those Muslims to their deaths.
Were the Dutch troops or the UN tried for war crimes, or complicity or even accused of them? If not why not?
Up to 100,000 slaughtered per day in Rwanda under the watchful eye of the UN during the period in which Kofi Annan was the man directly responsible for those UN operations.
Has Kofi Annan ever been criticised for his actions, or lack thereof, much less accused of "war crimes"?
Was criticism, similar to that leveled against Israel leveled against Russia for its indiscriminate attacks on civilians in Chechnya resulting in massive destruction and loss of innocent lives, much in excess of that which is happening in Gaza?
Has anybody suggested that because of these actions Russia has no right to exist?
I gave the example above of Black September in Jordan in 1970 when many more Palestinians were killed by Jordanian forces in a shorter time than the number of casualties currently reported from Gaza.
Was it suggested that Jordan be removed from the UN, or tried for war crimes, or that it has no right to exist?
And by the way, the majority of refugees currently languishing in refugee camps in Lebanon are those, and their descendants, expelled from Jordan after Black September. They are not the Palestinians who left Israel in 1948.
Darfur: Has it lost it's right to exist?
China: Where are the mass, hysterical demonstration calling for the elimination of China because of its human rights violations in Tibet?
Turkey: Has admitted to killing at least 900 Kurds in incursions conducted into Iraqi territory.
Where's the criticism?
If anybody has a right to their independence as a state for indisputable historical and political reasons it's Tibet and Kurdistan. Much more rights than the invented people of "Palestine".
As I pointed out above, since removed because somebody here doesn't like the bare facts:
"Did you know that Saudi Arabia was not created until 1913, Lebanon until 1920? Iraq did not exist as a nation until 1932, Syria until 1941; the borders of Jordan were established in 1946 and Kuwait in 1961. Any of these nations that would say Israel is only a recent arrival would have to deny their own rights as recent arrivals as well."
"However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."
Indeed, but as long as Israel is criticised unlike any other nation I will continue to regard such criticism as antisemitic.
Israel has been called the "light amongst nations", however Israel is also, indisputably "the Jew amongst nations."
........................
I'm away for the weekend now and may not even return here. I'm tired of listening to Jew hatred thinly veiled as "Anti-Zionism" or "legitimate criticism of Israel's policies", I'm also tired of attempting to debate with radical Islamist sock puppets who reject documented fact and resort to deception and deceit, and personal insults and libels.
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Blunted sensitivity
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It was also signed by an Arab, right next to Moshe's signature. It shows a line very reminiscent of the ""green line".The disclaimer is standard, but the map is clearly the product of official British Mandate mapping services....,And I suspect some are tired of your paranoid ravings and mis-perceptions of legitimate criticism of barbaric behaviour...
Sleep well
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You can throw all your old maps away Iggy. The past isn't coming back. Neither is the map of the British Raj or the map showing that Mexico owned most of the Western United States. Time marches on, history has changed the demographics of the Middle East. In the settlements on the West Bank, in Jerusalem, and on the Golan Heights, Israel rules. The overpaid blowhards on the East River can spout their nonsense forever but it won't change a thing.
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Two observations:
1)" Hamas" as it is used by many writing here is a caricature of reality. Its stated aims toward Israel, and the violence it has used, are unquestionably wrong, and are rightfully condemned.
It it is not, however, a unitary movement and the unalloyed embodiment of an implacable evil. As this article in Spiegel Online makes clear, there are many factions within it, some more willing to talk than others.
That the present war has brought these fissures into view is not surprising. Sadly, one can only wonder if resolute and meaningful efforts to engage Hamas in a negotiated settlement might have yielded similar results.
2) The advocates of violence seem unwilling to address the costs, to Israel and Israelis, of living in a constant state of war. As cdn4peace very astutely notes, freedom of speech in Israel is in real jeopardy. The economy is under severe strain.
More difficult to identify and quantify are changes in those attitudes, values and beliefs that are necessary for democracies to function. As Nir Rosen wrote in "The Broken Home," the meaning of what it is to be an Israeli is changing:
Israel is becoming Sparta; an insular, stagnant, austere, rigid state whose whole culture is based around the making of war. The saddest thing is, that this is neither an inevitable nor a necessary development.
Israel does not, and cannot, dance alone. The Palestinians are as much a defining contributor to the Israeli identity as Israel contributes to defining what it means to be a Palestinian.
It's time to stop killing, and start talking again.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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A second attempt at the link to Spiegel Online here
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#325. TrueToo wrote:
322. John_from_Hendon,
You are both ducking and diving ...
All wars end - I take it that you do not dispute this - if you do I am really sorry for you.
So in the end the protagonists have to talk to each other - or perhaps you don't think they ever should. If that is the case, see the last sentence of my previous paragraph.
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More on Hamas and Fatah
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peaceed
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A father's grief No comment needed
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336. chronophobe wrote:
"As cdn4peace very astutely notes, freedom of speech in Israel is in real jeopardy."
This is, of course, nonsense - as is that entire comment by cdn4peace at no. 315. I am surprised you didn't note the obvious, laboured attempt to make a case for a crackdown on freedom of expression in Israel where no crackdown exists, by someone whose knowledge of the country is in inverse proportion to his bias against it.
I didn't think you would be so easily fooled. And you might have noted that he supplied no links for his "quotes" from Israeli leaders.
Israeli freedom of speech is in about as much danger as Hamas terrorists are of renouncing their obsessive desire to destroy Israel.
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338. John_from_Hendon,
I still don't know what you imagine Israel has to talk to Hamas about. Are you aware that Hamas refused to extend the ceasefire when it expired in December?
How about the Arab side in the Israeli-Arab conflict making ONE concession towards peace. They haven't made one in sixty years and more of war and terror against Israel. Why do you think they are going to start now?
And please spare me your fake concern about what I do or don't believe about ending wars.
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331 marcus
I find your comment weird to say the LEAST???
You jump from Gaza to the USA and the financial crisis.
Sorry but i do not get the link.
With regard to HATE re the USA your
remarks are inconsistant with reality. ..
...................................?
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alexandercurzon, you have a very short memory. Look up some old newspapers from around 2002. Anti-American demonstratons with throngs ranting in the streets and in the media happened BEFORE the invasion of Iraq. Issues had to do with trade especially in agriculture and aviation, global warming, and globalization among others. Chirac wantede a European "Rapid Reaction Force" and wanted to "challenge" America in what he saw as a unipolar world. Yet the French and Germans are hardly pulling any of their weight in Afghanistan and neither is most of the rest of NATO. I for one am for the US leaving NATO, the WTO, and the UN. All treaties can be negotiated bilaterally in ways most favorable to Americans and American interests.
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as tha mau maus say
"Let the white man go back so the African can get his independence."
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re: 341 TT I am surprised you didn't note the obvious, laboured attempt to make a case for a crackdown on freedom of expression in Israel where no crackdown exists, by someone whose knowledge of the country is in inverse proportion to his bias against it.
Never heard of Norman Finklestein?
Never read about these 700 arrests?
Never thought about this woman, and the many like her, living through this moment:
More on Yeela Raananhere.
TT, nobody is suggesting that freedom of expression is being curtailed by administrative fiat. It is a sclerotic process whereby norms of what is and is not acceptable expression become, over time, catastrophically diminished. Living in and with the constant threat, and the ugly reality, of violence has this effect It is nothing I would wish on anyone, least of all Israelis.
Oh, and Ed, thanks for the link to the David Rose piece:
Great stuff, as usual.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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#341 TrueToo:
You dismiss it all as nonsense yet provide no proof nor evidence to the contrary, other than your own opinion.
Simply put, anyone can look up the quotes and find the original sources. So too can one can look up the individuals I mentioned that were persecuted or silenced for opposing the Israeli government's actions and find out for themselves whether it is "nonsense". So too can one see what happened when an Israeli PM tried to do something to further peace that didn't involve a war - in Yitzhak Rabin's case, he was assassinated for it.
One of Ariel Sharon's quotes that I included in my comment was straight from the BBC. Others appeared in Israeli journals and news articles.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1241371.stm
As for my "bias" against Israel overwhelming my "lack of knowledge", I'm not sure how your argument holds up if I were to tell you that I was located in Haifa for quite some time, and the majority of the information I have received regarding the freedom of speech in Israel came from concerned colleagues and friends, who are the very citizens of Israel. The Association of Civil Rights in Israel (http://www.acri.org.il/) is but one organization of many trying to bring to light the government's violations of freedom of expression in both Israel and the occupied territories.
Sheyihiye lecha yom na'im.
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344 marcus
HATE??
Disagree on issues YES!
The demos were anti war in 2003
re Iraq the anger was mainly towards
Blair.
ITS STILL A LONG WAY FROM GAZA
AS A TOPIC???????????????????
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Pinko, We can thank HappyJack for that David Rose piece. Thanks for your links, too.
Peace is possible - Inshallah
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~342 TT
More historical revisionism and truth twisting from TT. The reality is almost the opposite.
~~
Alex Curzon - I wouldn't bother with Marcus. He's nuts (you've probably already noticed that), but has good comedy value.
Ed, yes Peace is possible - Insallah
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If you want to see the things that are real, you've got to love yourself.
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Dread man,
Agreed. Though maybe I'd say it this way:
If you want to see the things that are real, you've got to love, yourself.
Cheers,
Pinko
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#342. TrueToo wrote:
Have you no ability to take a longer view of events?
All Wars end - that is an indisputable fact. (except by you, and probably MAII)
In the end everyone talks. Your total inability to understand this is completely illogical and incomprehensible. The absolutely blinkered way in which you address these issues is astonishing.
I am, I believe, quite right to patronise you just a little because of the way you have been unable to apparently understand any of the the lessons from history.
May I ask you how many more decades of War will satisfy you, your paymasters and fellow travellers. How long before you expect to carry on in this way and remain even loosely connected to the rest of humanity? Or is your solution to kill everyone!
There is only one solution and that is to talk, and come to a just settlement that recognises the equality of human rights of all of the warring parties and addresses all of the grievances. Waging continuous war will not work - If you (and probably MAII) believe it will than in my opinion you have lost your senses.
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Something I've come across in Martin Gilbert's history of Israel seems appropriate:
A book that was published in 1988 echoed Herzog's sentiments. Its author was Arie Lova Eliav [who] served as a Labour Member of Knesset. ...
[i]The results of the brilliant military victory achieved in the 1967 war included a horrifying exposure of all the evil impulses hidden within Israel as individual human beings and as a people: arrogance, vanity, indifference to the fate of the defeated, a strong desire to control the conquered territories and to enslave their population to the economy of the victors, and a mystic ritual of 'sanctification' of the conquered lands. And one more thing: the insouciance of those who led the victory.
Drunk and dizzy with glory and fame, gorged of the fruits of victory, the leaders imagined themselves all-powerful and believed that time was bound to work on their behalf. They began to think, speak, and act in terms of the supremacy of force, of 'might is right,' to which they added a sort of 'The sword shall devour forever' fatalism on the one hand, and a belief in divine miracles, which would hasten the coming of the Messiah, on the other.
These patterns of thought, speech, and action have led ever-increasing sections of Israeli society, and primarily Israeli youth, to hate the 'strangers' in their midst, and to increase their hostility toward the Arabs. This, in turn, has engendered the settlements on the West Bank - some of them built upon the tricks of land speculators.
The 'Greater Israel' movement, whose main goal is to incorporate the West Bank and Gaza into the nation's borders, has led Zionism and Israel astray, diverting them from their proper path and deflecting them from the achievement of their fundamental goals.
We must now ask ourselves some painful questions: Is Israel still a Jewish state? Is Israel still a democratic state? Are Israel's economy and society still productive? Is Israel a state - or a society - of tolerance? And is Israel approaching peace?[/i]
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TrueToo, since you don't seem to be able to absorb simple facts from those with a different perspective to you, perhaps you might understand them coming from former Israeli soldiers who have seen the truth of Israel's brutal occupation with their own eyes
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/17/refuseniks-israeli-dissent-military
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfnPjzOGB5s
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8777
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#344 - MarcusAureliusII
You may have a point about Afghanistan and even Chirac and Iraq but what on earth would be the point of people going onto the streets to try preventing something which has already started? Of course they were protesting before.
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Oops!
;-(((((
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Letter to Sir Gerald Kaufman MP, House of Commons, London SW1A 0AA. Sat 17 January 2009:
Dear Sir Gerald. My political opinion and actions are nearly irrelevant - except to me. I'm now 66. Ever since I learned about the Shoah - as a 10-year-old stumbling upon a book with black and white photos of scenes - obscenes - I steadily congealed, then froze into a position as immovable as an insect in amber - not only revulsion at what happened, but at the relentless convergence of banalities, incivilities, myopia and minor moral failures that converged to help bring about such monstrous things. I don't experience this as guilt - though I could be defined as a gentile - but as something more implacable, disconnected from identity, making me psychologically incapable of distinguishing between anti-semitism - to me, an evil far greater than any other for its demonstrable consequences - and opposition to the policies of the government of Israel. I can deplore but I've been morally stupefied by the imprint of certain images seen in childhood. If mere images, and as I grew up, texts, can have such effect, I can only try to imagine the influence of more direct experience. No-one reproaches me, since my opinion is of such minimal importance and because they're nice to me or trapped in parallel fixative.
Your speech in the Commons on Thursday moved me - in both senses of that word - helping me to see through the moral fog in which I've existed for so long, but it would a great reproach to me if anyone thought that I was persuaded by you rather than by my own conscience. Yours sincerely, Simon Baddeley
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8
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Baddesjh, Namaste
Thanks for that. You express so well the 'moral fog' in which so many of us travel. I was for many years an unconscious (and pretty uncritical) supporter of Israel, Having read Exodus in my teens. My eyes were slowly opened and it has been far from painless.
I also wrote to Sir Gerald in support.
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
Some background
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Try Google D notice Dunblane.
Interesting Illuminati and Times on line
No doubt the massacre in GAZA will
continue with abandon by the Israelis.
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The original topic here was, I believe, the various sides to the Gaza conflict.
Since this is the BBC site, i think we should look at how the BBC anchors present mainly one side during thier Newshour casts.
Listening to Own Bennet-Jones, for instance cutting off or ignoring any isrtaeli side to the story and allowing hamas spokespeople unending rants is an important part of the BBC's problem and it's bias in shaping public opinion.
I shiver to think what is on the BBC Arabic Service.
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Robin
There is no one in Britain, and arguably in Europe and USA having more knowledge and experience of the Israel/Palestine conflict than Sir Gerald Kaufman.
There can be no doubt that, in his short speech in Parliament, he chose his words very carefully.
So when he, at 78 years old, without agenda or ambition, speaks on the subject, we should all, every single one of us, listen and reflect on our own position.
Google: Sir Gerald Kaufman UK Jewish MP "Israeli leaders are not simply war criminals; they are fools,"speech 16 Jan 09
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JFH, the war for Israel's suvival has not ended, in fact after 61 years it has barely begun. One reason it never ends is because every time Israel is in the process of winning, it stops fighting on "humanitarian grounds" because of outside pressure. As a result, the scars of war left on its enemies heal over and within a few years they are ready to fight some more. If it is ever going to be over, Israel must deliver a blow so decisive its adversaries and the world will never forget and never want to suffer again. I'm sure if they did, much of the world would call it a war crime as they always find excuses why Israel should not vanquish its enemies but remain vulnerable to annihilation.
The decision for a unilateral cease fire was about as dumb as it could get. If nothing else, continued fighting into the beginning of Obama's administration would force him immediately to make it clear where his position lies. The best the Israelis can hope for now is that the Arabs will resume firing rockets at Israel shortly after Obama takes office. This will give Israel the perfect excuse to resume the battle and force Obama to pick the right side to back, just as America always picks the right side by backing Israel. I'm sure that Hamas is dumb enough to make this fatal error. So far they haven't gotten even one thing right. And those that back them still support them despite the fact that their living conditions have deteriorated badly since they came to power. How nice to be at war with someone so inept.
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Some of my best friends...
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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Iggy;
"Some of my best friends..."
are;
A) Nazis
B) Moslem terrorists
C) Communists
D) All of the above.
In your case I choose letter "D".
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Negativity the least, my material's is cease
Saying peace to the brothers in the belly of the beast
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"Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
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Reuters' take
Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
ed
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Another false Albert Einstein quote. He never said that.
Quit spreading these things, 'kikidread'.
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369. At 5:48pm on 18 Jan 2009, SteveGNyc wrote:
Another false Albert Einstein quote. He never said that.
+
can you prove that in a Court of law?
Item A - brainy quotes
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/alberteins100015.html
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Einstein may (or may not) have said it (in English or Deutsch), but it ain't false.
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Iggy, you're living proof of that.
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re: 363
Just to be clear, Marcus, what exactly is it you are calling for here? A nuclear strike? Mass expulsion? Genocide?
Just curious.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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re: 358 Simon Baddeley
Thoughtful, sincere, and eloquent.
Thank you for sharing that.
Respectfully Yours,
Lawrence Stuart
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Them never love, never love, never love poor Marcus-they
never love him, oh no
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354. mythic_roamer,
This is all nonsense of course, typical deluded pop psychology from the far left:
"[i]The results of the brilliant military victory achieved in the 1967 war included a horrifying exposure of all the evil impulses hidden within Israel as individual human beings and as a people: arrogance, vanity, indifference to the fate of the defeated, a strong desire to control the conquered territories...."
In fact, Israel immediately offered to comply with UN Resolution 242 and return the territories conquered in '67.
The Arabs later responded with the infamous three 'nos' at Khartoum.
*No peace with Israel
*No recognition of Israel
*No negotiations with Israel
Maybe some of the many experts on the Israeli-Arab conflict here can explain how that makes Israel the eternal aggressor - if you can stop bashing Israel for a second to reflect on the question.
Also perhaps you can bring yourselves to respond to this:
How about the Arab side in the Israeli-Arab conflict making ONE concession towards peace. They haven't made one in sixty years and more of war and terror against Israel. Why do you think they are going to start now?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
So, the militant Islamist terror supporters here have already cried to teacher about my comment for the second time. I wonder what excuse they're using now instead of debating the points raised.
Here is one of the 670 results found by google searching for just one line of the text:
http://middleeastfacts.com/middle-east-facts.php
"He who is unaware of his ignorance will only be misled by his knowledge."
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Actually, there's a better link here:
http://www.jewsforjesus.org.au/docs/ArabIsraeliconflict.html
"Jews for Jesus"... could they be Zionists I wonder?
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chronophobe, I think returning Gaza to Egypt and what Israel doesn't want or need for its settlements and security on the West Bank to Jordan would be best. Make Egypt and Jordan responsible for controlling the Arabs in these territories. They were theirs to begin with. Keep Jerusalem and the Golan Heights as part of Israel. Talk of a Palestinian state is ludicrous. Incorporation of these territories into a one state solution would be the end of Israel so that is also out. The only problem, Egypt and Jordon don't want these people back. Perhaps Turkey or the UK should be responsible for them.
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re: 376 TT
Sir,
You astonish me. Arie Lova Eliav a pop psychologist of the far left? Martin Gilbert, a leftist ideologue?
Google these names, you might learn something.
As to your other questions:
The first has been addressed by others (on other threads) more times than I care to count.
The last is so absurd as to not require a serious response. But just for fun, how about this:
Shimon Peres, Israeli President, as quoted in a Feb. 25, 2002 Ha'aretz article titled "Saudi Plan Impossible For Israel to Ignore":
"The body of the Saudi position is more or less known to us, but what is important [is] that for the first time Saudi Arabia, which had turned its back on Israel, didn't want to speak with it, didn't want to hear about Israel, is proposing to the Arab world normalizing relations with us and recognizing Israel."
Sounds like a concession to me.
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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Re: Palestinian nationalism:
In November 1968, [Arie Lova] Eliav published a three-part series of articles on his study-tours in the territories in the Labor paper, Davar. For a politician who was part and parcel of Mapai, what he wrote was extraordinary:
"The Palestinian people today have all the attributes of nationhood. They have national consciousness. They have territorial continuity where most of the Palestinians live. They have a Palestinian history of decades, marked by struggles and wars. They have a diaspora with a strong affinity to their birthplace. They have national awareness of a common disaster, common victims, sufferings and heroes. The nation has a vision, its own literature and poetry. The Arab Palestinian nation is perhaps the nation with the most obvious signs of identity and the strongest national unity, among the Arab nations. This nation consists of some two million Arabs, half of them in the occupied territories on the western bank of the Jordan and the other half on the eastern bank of the Jordan. Some of them are dispersed throughout the Arab world."
Ha'aretz article here.
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Marcus,
Thank you for your measured response. The problem, I think, with what you suggest is the reality of Palestinian nationalism. More from the Ha'aretz article cited above:
There is an historical paradox, Eliav wrote, "that Zionism was the reason for the creation of the Palestinian nation, but the Palestinian nation must be seen as a fait accompli." He revealed the ironic side of the Six-Day War. Israel went to war against neighboring countries that tried to attack it, but "the problem of our ties with the Palestinian Arabs now takes precedence in the complex of our ties with the Arab world. It is more important than the problem of our ties with the Arab world and therein lies the key to solving our problems with the countries of the region."
Yours,
Canadian Pinko
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Who broke the cease-fire which resulted in the slaughter by Israel of more than twelve hundred Palestinians? MARK REGEV admits it was Israel
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More information on Israel's greed and domination
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National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity.
How can we eliminate stupidity?
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381. chronophobe,
I am well aware that Martin Gilbert is a respected historian. That doesn't change the fact that Arie Lova Eliav wrote rubbish in that piece. You might have noticed that mythic_roamer gave no context or link to his copy and paste job, and therefore I can only come up with a rebuttal based on what he posted. It is unclear whether Gilbert quoted Eliav, and if he did, in what context. Because the name Martin Gilbert is mentioned, that's no reason to suspend critical thought.
When someone uses language like this:
"....a horrifying exposure of all the evil impulses hidden within Israel as individual human beings and as a people: arrogance, vanity, indifference to the fate of the defeated...." and this, "Drunk and dizzy with glory and fame, gorged of the fruits of victory...." to refer to his fellow Israelis, then it should be painfully obvious there is a political agenda here, and that it ain't pretty.
I note you have no response to my rebuttal of this inflammatory text. So, again, Israel immediately offered to comply with 242 and return to the Arabs the territories occupied in Israel's defensive '67 war. The Arabs, as I pointed out, later utterly rejected any possibility of peace with Israel and continued with their unprovoked terror against Israeli civilians and their wars.
Take a closer look at your "compromise" from Saudi Arabia. See if you can spot the parts designed to lead to the destruction of Israel. Note also that the Saudis reward the families of Palestinian suicide bombers with wagon loads of dollars. If they were serious about peace they would stop this despicable backing of terror against Israeli civilians.
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The notion of a "Palestinian People" was invented after 1967. There was never any talk of such a thing for the thousand or more years before that, just of Arabs who lived in the Area. This is why they are not a contiguous geographical entity. The history of non contiguous nations has been dismal. East and West Pakistan for one. Unlike Alaska which is non contiguous with the lower 48 states, the West Bank does not have an outlet to the sea so any transport between the two parts must be over land through other countries, at least one of them, Israel is hostile. The so called Palestinians have seen to that themselves. So not isn't there any rational justification for a Palestinian state, there is no practical way to achieve it.
The real attitude of even Arab nations for the Palestinians has ranged from indifference to disdain. That they live in squalid conditions over 60 years after the creation of Israel and 40 years after the 1967 war is proof of that. Look at the way they and the Kuwaitis treated each other prior to and after the 1991 war with Iraq. The Palestinian "issue" which is always thrown up as a key to peace in the middle east is a canard, a diversion Arab states use to draw their own peoples' attention away from their cruel barbaric dictatorships, their poverty, and a successful democratic state, Isreal in their midst is a dangerous example that threatens the spread of notions of free prosperous tolerant societies and so must be villified as an alien enemy presence. What more effective way than to instill religious and racial hatred through lies that often works so effectively among people who have been perpetually indoctrinated to it.
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To 363, 388
Marcus, like many Americans, has a stone age view of conflict resolution, like fellow Neanderthals John Bolton and George Bush, they believe that force and violence are the best options for solving international disputes. They don't seem to have the wit to see beyond the bomb and the bullet as a method of 'negotiation'.
If the present situation in Gaza has done anything, it has encouraged many to look again at the legitimacy of Israel as a democratic state. Those who study the actual historical background, not the one re-written by the Zionists to suit their case, will realise that Israel was founded on terrorism and has been using terrorist tactics ever since to displace Palestinians and further expand its borders, not just my views but also the views of many Jewish academics and politicians.
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If the world seems to be getting nastier, your stupidity is increasing
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#388 do you include yourself within the 'tolerant' society bracket? If so I think you need to be moderated.
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MAII,
They emerged because they had to. After twenty years of 'sequestration' in refugee camps and the danger of being totally forgotten, they resorted to hijacking planes, and at least became a "nation", and visible....David Livingstone, Substitute "Israel" for "America" (or just add it?)Salaam/Shalom/Shanthi/Peace
-ed
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Uri Avnery has written an interesting article on 'human shields'.
Nearly 70 years ago, in the course of World War Two, a heinous crime was committed in the city of Leningrad. For more than a thousand days, a gang of extremists called ‘the Red Army’ held the millions of the town’s inhabitants hostage and provoked retaliation from the German Wehrmacht from inside the population centres. The Germans had no alternative but to bomb and shell the population and to impose a total blockade, which caused the death of hundreds of thousands.
Some time before that, a similar crime was committed in England. The Churchill gang hid among the population of London, misusing the millions of citizens as a human shield. The Germans were compelled to send their Luftwaffe and reluctantly reduce the city to ruins. They called it the Blitz.
This is the description that would now appear in the history books – if the Germans had won the War.
Absurd? No more than the daily descriptions in our Israeli media, which are being repeated ad nauseam: the Hamas terrorists use the inhabitants of Gaza as ‘hostages’ and exploit the women and children as ‘human shields’, they leave us no alternative but to carry out massive bombardments, in which, to our deep sorrow, thousands of women, children and unarmed men are killed and injured.
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Sir, are you using only half your brain?
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"Only two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
+
He forgot about Infinite Cruelty
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384. At 10:00am on 19 Jan 2009, Jack the Turk wrote:
Who broke the cease-fire which resulted in the slaughter by Israel of more than twelve hundred Palestinians? MARK REGEV admits it was Israel
Mark Regev does no such thing.
When it's suggested by the BBC's reporter that Israel broke the ceasefire he says that he "strongly disagrees".
Watch the video again with your pro-Islamist terror filter switched off.
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Dalai Lama is a Zionist?
Dalai Lama Stuns Audience... Admits: "I Love George Bush"
The Dalai Lama, a lifelong champion of non-violence on Saturday candidly stated that terrorism cannot be tackled by applying the principle of ahimsa because the minds of terrorists are closed.
"It is difficult to deal with terrorism through non-violence," the Tibetan spiritual leader said delivering the Madhavrao Scindia Memorial Lecture here.
He also termed terrorism as the worst kind of violence which is not carried by a few mad people but by those who are very brilliant and educated.
"They (terrorists) are very brilliant and educated...but a strong ill feeling is bred in them. Their minds are closed," the Dalai Lama said.
He said that the only way to tackle terrorism is through prevention. The head of the Tibetan government-in-exile left the audience stunned when he said "I love President George W Bush." He went on to add how he and the US President instantly struck a chord in their first meeting unlike politicians who take a while to develop close ties.
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To 396 Biodegraded
Yes, we know he backtracked later but he'd previously agreed that Hamas didn't break the cease-fire so who did?
This is based upon an analogy recently broadcast, I take no credit for it:-
A homeless vagrant goes to the police to ask for accommodation. The police come to your house and tell you that you have to let the vagrant live with you. The vagrant contacts his mates and invites them to stay, they soon outnumber you and your family who then are kicked out into the garden. You protest but are locked into the garden shed. You try to compromise with the vagrant by offering to split the house 50/50 but the vagrant refuses to talk because he wants all of the house for himself. You are so frustrated that you throw stones at the house to annoy the vagrant and his mates. Eventually the vagrant gets fed up with it and goes to see Marcus, a powerful friend, who gives him the means to blow up your shed, killing you and your family.
It couldn't happen - could it???
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So the Palestinians are advised to continue meeting terrorism with terrorism....Complain about this comment
Hopefully this lede from a Reuters story this morning will help to clarify things:
GAZA (Reuters) - Hamas vowed Monday to rearm in defiance of any Israeli and international efforts to prevent the Islamist militant group from replenishing its arsenal of rockets and other weapons after the Gaza war.
"Do whatever you want. Manufacturing the holy weapons is our mission and we know how to acquire weapons," Abu Ubaida, a spokesman for Hamas's armed wing, told a news conference.
.....
(fighting down to the last unwilling civilian 'martyr')
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399. At 2:50pm on 19 Jan 2009, Ed Iglehart wrote:
So the Palestinians are advised to continue meeting terrorism with terrorism....
Only an Islamist terrorist supporter could interpret comments made in support of GWB in that way.
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