Are we witnessing a new age of Christian persecution?

The lesson recently learned from South Korea is that to be afraid to respond or to not respons only encourages increased aggression and violence.
The Coptic Christians quickly retailated and not only did that throttle back the Muslims but brought in the Government to preserve order and protect the Christians.
In Iraq, the Government has turned a blind eye to the plight of the Muslim violence against the Christians further encouraging violence.
the root cause, I believe, is the dictates of Islam wherein they see all other peoples who worship God in their own way as infidels and must be murdered.
The belief system is based upon violence and therefore I can never see it peacefully coexist with any other religion.

"Muslims and Christians alike have been targeted by inter-religious violence many times through history – is this time any different?"

Nope, the Christians in Muslim countries are a tiny minority that have lost the European colonial protection they once enjoyed. So now that land, water and other commodities become scarcer and scarcer in the Middle East and the Muslim majority becomes more zealot the Christians will undergo the same fate minorities have been undergoing throughout history.

One may have noticed that the terrorist have no aversion to blowing of the mosque of fellow Muslims so why would they hesitate to blow up a Christian church? The radical Muslims see all other beliefs as defilement of their beliefs and therefore may be murdered as part of a just cause. The Christians may simply be easier targets at this time. I hope you are not attempting to promote a new Crusade.

A great many acts of minority persecution occur that while not conspiratorial are none the less well-tolerated, especially if a majority sees them as accruing to the common good. All societies deal with diversity at measurable cost, thus a percentage of their members urge its elimination. This is the reason isolated cultures tend toward homogenization. Look like as we do. - Think as we do. - Vote as we vote. - Worship our God - are the common mantras. This particular persecution is just another in the line. There is nothing new about it. It is a fact that while the fringes of societies provide the actors, the billions of monkeys –that’s us – provide the scripts.
g

Once again, whenever I hear calls for tolerance and understanding, it's always only a one way expectation, of non muslims to tolerate and understand muslims, but never any form of reciprocation. there's nothing remotely as bad here in the west, of treatment of muslims, as compared to the treatment of non muslims in muslim countries, yet I constantly hear shouts of islamophobia. enough with one way tolerance.

These actions obviously make the terrorist feel important. Unfortunately it just disgraces their religion and disrespects their God.

I mean all the religions. Both Islamic and Christian in origin.

Can anybody find a casualty count on Christians killed by Muslims vs. Muslims killed by Christians. This should include not only personal and localized explosives, BUT also ones dropped from planes, drones, and launched. Also arms fire. Include unjustified imprisonment. Be sure to include the deaths carried out by the military directed and chiefed by Christian leadership.

For instance, (From BBC 6.10.2005)"President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq ." And I did."

This question and post would lead one to believe that the only bombs that count are those of an independent extremist, and that Policy and actions driven by religious doctrine is some how washed clean of direct behavior? This say nothing of Jewish states that are back by "Christian" ones.

"Christian persecution?"

I recall that President G W Bush, in a speech before his Conservative Christian Republican base early in his first term, declared a "New Crusades" and then declared war against Iraq. Now wouldn't that really be the opposite of "Christian Persecution"?

So I am not surprised that the reaction in the Middle East to the New Crusades, would be to counter the attacks on Muslims with attacks on the "Christians" in their midst.

I suggest that "religion" is the problem and "reality" is the answer.

Supernatural Versus Reality, now wouldn't you figure that reality would win out? Grrr!

@steve, I started writing a lengthy metaphor in the hopes of explaining the situation, but I've decided that it'd be more productive just to say this:

If treating people well is a virtue, then we should treat people well.

Period.

Anybody who has served as a in the Middle East knows that there is nothing new about attacks on persons of Christian belief. One of the first things we learnt, half a century ago, was never to go down unknown streets alone.
During the spread of the Islam, into many European countries, politicians have chosen to turn a blind eye to the dangers this religion brings, when the believers follow certain assertions made in the Koran. The President of Germany, for example, recently described the Islam as part of the new German culture. It is therefore only a question of time before Germany has the same problems as Britain does, in towns such as Nottingham.
Not all Moslems are radicalists, but there are far too many who believe they have the duty to convert, or destroy, members of other religions.

For instance, (From BBC 6.10.2005)"President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq ." And I did."

This question and post would lead one to believe that the only bombs that count are those of an independent extremist, and that Policy and actions driven by religious doctrine is some how washed clean of direct behavior? This say nothing of Jewish states that are back by "Christian" ones.
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Completely off topic. Nobody in the west is killing people due to their religious convictions. Bush is a politician, he says things, and the real reason was not what he said.. Can you stop western bashing for a moment? There's a serious problem in the muslim world of the treatment of non muslims. You changing the subject not only violates the rules here, but also does nothing about the problem.

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@Tom D Ford
But Tom more people died in NON-Religious wars than all the religious wars combined.
Additionally I can find NO reference to Bush declaring a "New Crusade" except that which is quoted tin the off beat underground tabloids who see conspiracies everywhere.

A. Several bombings took place in Egypt over the past 30 years, fatalities and causalities; I believe; never discriminated between people; not based on their religion, race or nationality.

B. No one sympathized or justified any of these bombings, not inside nor outside Egypt, e.g. the Muslim brotherhood; which is an Islamic group banned by the Egyptian government; even rushed in condemning the coward act. Assuming this bombing is religion motivated is; I believe; baseless.

C. As mainstream Muslims across the world, we share the belief that Human life is 'sacred', and that taking a life of a single human without a just cause is comparable to killing every human alive (ch5, v32).

My point is that we are all missing the point.
It's NOT the bombing, it's this form of response that was actually intended.

And as a side note: there is admittedly a very powerful mispositioned hate and resentment against many aspects of life in Egypt. and I can only assume that it is clearly 'convenient' to put people against each other for whatever reason or cause just to keep 'things' under control.

BTW: The bombing rapidly overshadowed the most outrageous parliamentary elections in Egypt that has just ended. which btw: had nothing to do with Christians in Egypt.


Think again.

Jihadists are persecuting Christians not only in Egypt, but in Iraq, Pakistan, Indonesia, Nigeria, North Caucasus and elsewhere also. Predictably enough, this mass murder has not resulted in any worldwide revulsion against the Islamic jihadists, but instead has brought only new and imaginative twists on the usual evasion, obfuscation, denial and finger-pointing that generally follow jihad attacks. Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, was one of the first to muddy the waters, claiming that "foreign hands” was behind the attack. (Could it not be the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, with the connivance of the State Security apparatus?) The harsh reality is that it was Muslims, acting in the name of Islam, who were the “anonymous” perpetrators.

christians are violetors and muslims see the violation. it is quite obvious not to let...
we as muslim ummah, we witnessed,surffered religious persecution from christian more than ever.
if BBC were to record the number of muslims who died in ...the hands of christians and number of christians who died in the hands of muslims BBC would have not posted such comments"Are we witnessing anew age of christian persecution?"and on the web saying "We have spoken about violance against christians BEFORE but sadly the issue come up again"who is violating christians ?.
BBC had to answer it.
In Egypt investigations are stil on while Nigeria, religion officials have spoken and said its behind politics.
BBC came up with its own conclusion and seemingly BBC exaggerates the matter in Egypt and am sorry to say it.
by all that, will BBC loss their impartiality?.as muslims we strongly condemn the loss of lives of innocent people in Nigeria,Egypt,Somalia and Iraq as well as a cross the world.

All religion is poison.

The APPARENT PERSECUTION of Christians in Iraq can be tied to the unjustified declaration of WAR ON THE PEOPLE OF IRAQ by so-called CHRISTIAN COUNTRIES. CHRISTIANS THERE NEED TO SOLVE THE WAR PUZZLE BEFORE OFFERING JESUS CHRIST.

All this shows is religion is bonkers


@steve comment 5 hear hear

2. At 1:18pm on 03 Jan 2011, modernJan wrote:
"Muslims and Christians alike have been targeted by inter-religious violence many times through history – is this time any different?"

Nope, the Christians in Muslim countries are a tiny minority that have lost the European colonial protection they once enjoyed. So now that land, water and other commodities become scarcer and scarcer in the Middle East and the Muslim majority becomes more zealot the Christians will undergo the same fate minorities have been undergoing throughout history.


Your comments made me laugh. You are talking a lot of nonsense. If you are referring to the British Empire that you need to do your research. You will find that it was a small minority of rich Britons who have certainly persecuted and looted from "Minorities" The rest of the Britons at the time had nothing to do with the Empire, they did not benefit! The same minority who apparantly persecuted the Third World also persecuted their fellow Brits back home. These unfortunate Brits worked for pitiful wages, their children were climbing up chimneys to clean them, children as young as 14 were hanged for stealing bread or ended up living in Workhouses.

Therefore I get sick of hearing about non-white people being ill treated by the Brits in the past. Plenty of Brits were badly treated too by the same people who ill treated other people abroad.

@Helal
"As mainstream Muslims across the world, we share the belief that Human life is 'sacred'"

It is obvious to the casual observer that this is ludicrous on its face.
Have you not listened to the news, read a nespaper, participated in a blog or otherwise been informed of world events for at least the past 75 years?

No I don't believe the intention is Christian persecution, although it may be the result. I think these attacks are intended to destabilise an important US ally. I think there are a few issues at play:

- These attacks are not attacks for the sake of persecuting a religion, these attacks are acts by extremists who need a failed state to operate in, and therefore thrive on instability. Minorities are the "softest" targets to achieve this instability and bring about government failure.

- Egypt is an important tool of US policy and crimes in the Middle East, Egypt represses democracy and human rights, and supports Israeli crimes and occupation against Palestine. Destabilising the oppressive Egyptian dictatorship would be a significant setback to US policy in the Middle East.

- The terrorists are trying to market the war as a "Christian vs Muslims". The Western world is also more likely to want to intervene to protect Christian minorities, thus the terrorists get to expand their war and marketing (although plenty of that marketing and agitating is done right here in the Western media).

- The terrorists can also exploit the anger that the local population has against the dictatorship, and point out that the dictatorship only survives because of US financial, military and political support, thus the struggle against dictatorship is part and parcel of the war against the US.

I fear Egypt may have a very violent and turbulent future as a proxy battlefield with all the "wrong" sides participating (US, dictatorship, terrorists). There is, however, fledgeling political opposition to the dictatorship, spearheaded by the Muslim Brotherhood but also includes prominent secularists. I believe their voices are needed now more than ever to provide a "fourth way", neither dominated by the US, nor a dictatorship, nor tolerating terrorists.

@Steve,

IT is completely “on-topic”. The claim that the west is not persecuting other countries for religious reasons, rings of the Iraqis information minister Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf. (You know the guy who said the US wasn't coming as they breaking breaking down Baghdad’s walls.) I country who pledges allegiance to “God” and it is understood which “God” is meant and tolerated. Has “In God we trust” on its currency. Has it soldiers burial plots marked with crosses (a sign of Christianity). The military is staffed by people majorly of one faith and belief. An enemy with non-muslim background and with nuclear weapons threatens to turn the US into a “lake of fire” and that is brushed off. Yet a Muslim country with no evidence of eminent threat is aggressively invaded and bombed. Tens of thousands die. Never mind that “being Muslim” is considered a trait impossible to overcome on the pursuit of being president.

Don't believe the voices out of peoples mouths, especially politicians. I observe their actions. And the US and the west has been engaged in a war with Muslims for about 80 years. How the persecution of Muslims at the hands of Christians isn't “on topic” I don't know. But I suspect you are right.

To date, nobody can name a single country that was Christian (or even polytheist) that has been invaded by a Muslim government sponsored army.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

You know WHYS team. This is really one of those loaded questions. You know your audience is made up of many Muslims, Christians, and pacifistic alike. This question is designed to start out with two of those three groups on the defensive posture. Then those of us who are normal commentators here on the blog all know that there is no rational reason sometimes when stuff gets labeled "off topic" and others who make the same or similar comments are posted.

The better question would have been "Are there religious wars being waged (directly or overtly) today?"

The real tragedy of conflict is that almost everyone involved desperately wants to be doing something else. The corollary to this is that conflict resolution centers upon indentifying, negating, or sometimes simple ignoring the actions of a relatively few people. This conflict isn’t the exception. The people who killed and injured Christians in Egypt have violated the precepts of every major religion on Earth. They are sufficiently identified by their sin. Condemn them for their transgression and please do not further name them. To do so merely aids in accomplishing their goal. The one can inflame a thousand and the thousand can inflame the world.
g

Rather than a "new age of christian persecution", I see these events as the inevitable result of forcing people to live as second class citizens. I don't want to minimize the suffering that is going on here, because it is real and systematic. At the same time, I'm just not seeing the persecution in other areas of the world.

While Islamic terrorists massacre innocent Christians in the name of Allah in Egypt during New Year celebrations, blew up several Christian churches in Nigeria the week before and murder Christians in Iraq, the BBC has decided to make this report for the cause of Islam:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12075931

Well, we all know the truth, and the violence of 2011 will follow the same pattern towards non-Muslims which took place during the reign of Mohammed in the 7th century.

@Ibrahim in UK
Interesting comments but Egypt has always been proxy battleground.
My concern is what use is Democracy foisted upon an ingorant population that hasn't the wherewithal to question or challenge their religion without being slaughtered?
Great Britain to its credit laid all of the foundations in its worldwide empire creating a common language, installing the mechanisms of government, transferring their legal system, developing a transportation infrastructure, etc and educating the people until they ultimately rose up and relatively peacefully reclaimed their country's independence joining the group of civilized nations.
Egypt may be under a strongman dictatorship but only chaos and increased Islamic terrorism will result in the establishment of "democracy", an anthema to Islam, in Egypt.

@21. At 12:32pm on 04 Jan 2011, PilotDan

I agree with Pilot. I always laugh out loud when I read statements like those that are quite contrary to the reality. I call it Lip Service.

Before Steve and several others continue their anti-Muslim tirade, I hope they saw the statement by a senior Egyptian cleric who called for both religions "the cross and the crescent" to band together to oppose violence and terrorism.

It must never be forgotten that the extremists are a tiny--but very vocal--minority.

Do you mean persecution OF Christians or persecution BY Christians? There's too much of both. If George Bush and Tony Blair represented Christianity and acted according to Christian principles (as they loudly and repeatedly claimed), it would be no wonder if every non-Christian in the world felt threatened. Religious conflict serves every incompetent and cynical politician who wants their people to be distracted by superstition and to feel besieged by "outsiders" rather than to expect leadership and security from their civil institutions. No matter what God one worships, if any, we want to take care of our families and not be afraid. Those are a few of the simple things that make us brothers and not enemies but too many leaders would be threatened by popular cohesion and empowerment. The Egyptian government, among many others, benefits from any dramatic distraction.

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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Are Christians persecuted again? Does the same apply to prayers of other religions? The world has become global, that's why we see more of everything. News spreads quickly, baad news spreads very quickly. Either people are more sensitive or it is expected to say at least something about what's going on around.

Agata

If the Middle East is to prosper, it must wake up to the fact that all religions must get along. Anything less will be a detriment to its growth and how this rest of the world sees and deals with it.

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To WHYS: I'm not sure how responding to a point someone is trying to make is "multiple posts" when I only responded to it once, and got denied. If you allow people to post questions, people should be allowed to answer the question.. I'll even remove my comments about the America bashing.

Dwight asked:

To date, nobody can name a single country that was Christian (or even polytheist) that has been invaded by a Muslim government sponsored army.

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Spain was invaded 397 years before the Crusades begin, and was conquered, by Muslim forces, and was occupied for almost 800 years, until 1492. Sicily was also invaded by Muslims. Turkey/Ottoman empire invaded and conquered much of eastern europe, and made it to the gates of Vienna.

Thank you HELAL (#14). You hit the nail on the head.

As long as folks have a knee jerk "understanding" of events (any events, any where,) they make themselves easy targets of manipulation by those who would divert attention from their own power-grabbing. (Remember, it has been reported that the police protecting this Coptic church left the scene 15 minutes before the car bomb exploded.)

Mr. Mubaruk cleverly takes a page out of Al-Qaida's handbook - foment a schism between Islam and other religions, and the emotional back-and-forth lets the manipulator sit back and watch his victory while he laughs at our simplicity - like a puppeteer pulling the strings of marionettes from the comfort of his cave... or palace.

Alan,

Can you explain what it means to prosper? If a man and a woman desire only to raise a family in the way as their religion prescribes. If that religion prescribes a moral code of conduct differnt then that of people outside their region, is it the right of the world to come in and change the way they live.

Is it possible that Muslim Extremest are lashing out from being force to "prosper" changing their culture and moral code to conform to a western ideology? Is it possible that they see through this thin veiled attempt to promote "human rights" so the west can have access to the well of oil under their lands?

How wold you react if a Muslim army invaded The US and forced their idea of "prosperity" on you? How would you feel if a large group of South Americans migrated up north and caused a change in your environment by simply accepting a different standard of living? (Forcing down wages, accepting drugs, and living in crowded homes for instance.)

The act of prosecuting or killing innocent lives in ISLAM is seen as committing a crime against the creator who ordered just and fairness in human dealings and if there is any muslim who go ahead in killing somebody he will seriously be dealt with by ALLAH on earth and hereafter. While, wagging a war against the muslims minority nation is not seen by the west as an act of terrorism rather it was welcome as a crusade which was carried out by most christian nation whom one way or the other has a vast political influence on the less muslim society by the virtue of preaching true democracy. Surprisingly, any retailation by the muslim intimidated who has no other way to fightback or voice out will be seen as an act of terrorism which will collectivily use on the average face of innocent muslims as a terrorist. How many times do we bother to ask ourselves the reasons behind those act which is mostly be politically influenced by the fanatics leader who has being looking for way to archieve his selfish interest at the expense of ISLAM integrity.

It is clear from this small, unscientific sampling of opinion on WHYS that the real battle world-wide is emotion vs. reason. Unless the 21st C. is much different than the rest of human history, emotion will self-righteously plunge us into another era of misunderstanding and perhaps even more widespread war.

Case in point, today's rhetoric would have one believe that Islam is the enemy, rather than a handful of hate-filled people who claim defense of Islam as grounds for their violence. I would suspect that the myopic views of defensive, hate-filled Christians responding today will be spread among Muslim masses as representative of all Christians (or all Westerners) in an effort to foment even more defensiveness and hate in the general Muslim community. And so it goes - a ratcheting up of flailing at "the enemy" with an ever more dangerous ratcheting up of emotion.

This latest round of manipulation by extremists began 10 years ago when "the enemy" was "the West." Political and economic grounds for hatred don't have as much life in them as religion, however, hence the transitioning to religious persecution, which looks to sustain itself with only a few well-placed bombs when the clamor begins to dim. Minorities historically are the best "victims" to foment change... and this discussion pits two powerful minorities against each other: Muslims, who are a minority outside their Middle Eastern homes, and Christians, who are a minority inside the Middle East. Pretty clever. Pretty insidious. And very, very scary unless reason harnesses emotion on all sides.

What people want first of all is a system of accountability, and a government that is strong enough and independent enough to protect the rights and interests of its citizens. Whether that manifests in Egypt as a replica of Western democracy, or a replica of early Islamic democracy or anything else is a matter for Egyptians to decide and sculpt.
Many in the West believe that the Middle East has to copy the Western model and separate religion from state in order to build that model and be successful in general. This is based on the West's experience of Christian rule and persecution in Europe; the Dark Ages. Separation made sense and worked in that context.
Muslims have a different history and different experience of Islamic rule which brought the Golden Age to Muslims and Jews. The Dark Ages in Islam began with the decline/separation of Islam. Muslims feel that Islam already has all the answers as well as historical experience for success, including the successful running of a multicultured, multifaith and multiethnic society.
Islam elevated the society by elevating and empowering people relative to their surroundings, allowing them to question, learn and assimilate new knowledge. A society does not become more Islamic or elevated by downtrodding everything non-islamic, it only becomes more downtrodden itself.

I don't know if the persecution is new, maybe it's a periodic flare-up, but here in the states it's quite the opposite. Christians (especially fundamentalists) are very powerful. Naturally, people here sympathize more with those whom they perceive to be more like themselves.

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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

@ Dwight

When I think of "Prosper", I think more financial than religious. In regards to most people these two areas go hand in hand. Especially when family are the central unit of an individual. We must have acceptance of each other and our differences to prosper.

I've lived in the Southwest of the USA for the 35 of my 51 years. I've watched both of the neighborhoods I've lived in change from a diverse ethnic environment to a mostly Hispanic environment. Not including a couple of group homes close to me, I'm one of 2 non-Hispanic households on my street.

I don't consider this an invasion as much as a growth of my community. It hasn't effected property value, religion or wages that I'm aware of.

I'm totally against forcing anyone to change from their preferred life choices. I would fight it just as much as the next person.

Prosperity = acceptance of others.
Anything less disgraces all!

Religious intolerance is one of the saddest realities in the 21st century. One would expect people to evolve and learn to respect one another with better education. Instead we are witnessing religious hatred in different parts of the globe. Harmonious religious and racial interaction are still pipe-dreams! Perhaps countries should borrow a leaf from Singapore's excellent multicultural and multiracial record.

Who is persecuting whom and who started it will always be moot points. The Islamic extremists have been mixing politics with a skewed interpretation of religious dogma, to meet their political ends for decades, a tendency that received its original major boost as a response to the mistreatment of Arab/Muslim Palestinians following the founding of the State of Israel, manifesting itself in the terrorist attacks and highjackings of the 60s and 70s.
Over the decades the US has become much more overtly religious (Christian) and Bush did indeed put his foot in his month by referring to his “war on terrorism” as a Crusade although he was gagged almost immediately on that score, aided by Blair who also seemed to have caught religion, despite attempts to play that down.
Is it therefore any wonder therefore that, the battle lines having been drawn, vulnerable minority groups are in grave danger of persecution? Obviously in the Middle East Muslims are overwhelmingly in the majority and as the hatred against Christians spreads (as the embodiment of western values, and regardless of their ethnic origin) as does general intolerance to anything other than the jihadists’ warped interpretation of Islam, there is bound to be further discrimination if not actual persecution and the only people who can actually stop it are that mysterious species “moderate Muslims” by repudiating the jihadists’ mind set altogether, without making ANY excuses for their inhuman conduct, following this up by banishing them from their societies altogether, standing four-square with the other “peoples of the book” and lobbying peacefully for change – or maybe this is just tilting at windmills?

@Ibrahim in UK
You may feel that "Islam elevated the society by elevating and empowering people relative to their surroundings, allowing them to question, learn and assimilate new knowledge" but daily reality says different.

@ Alan,

Prospering to many of those in Middle Eastern and Muslim mindsets has nothing to do with financial or technological gain. Prospering to them means that their families ideals, moralities, and traditions carry on to the next generation. Religion is very much a part of that feeling of success and prosperity. These families do care what their children turn out to believe and behave. This is more important then how many houses they own, how many cars they own, and how far in debt they can get. They think of their future.

This complete difference in priorities and understanding of the meaning of "prosper" has caused hostility, fear, and anger from both sides of the Muslim vs. Christian debate. Just as these differences in priorities has furled tension in other aspects of our culture. Since most "Christians" do not let their religion dictate their actions. Christians often claim that their motives are not "religious driven".

Do away with religion, that's what I say! Can you imagine what a wonderful place this world would be?

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looking at Pakistan today Islamists unable to get their way thru the legislative process have taken a path of violence trying to get adhereance to Sharia Law.
The root of the violence is that people have rejected the message of slam and the radicals unwilling to participate but like spoiled children are stomping their feet, holding their breath and are on tear of violence.
I bleieve that Islam has made Pakistan a failed state.

The majority is witnessing a new age of persecution. The dictatorship of irrationals...
Very sad indeed.

@ Dwight

I agree! The two different mindsets encompassed within these religions is the hardest obstacle to get around.

One accepts change and growth and the other fights it trying to maintain control that it is afraid to loss.

Even if these weren't religious based attitudes. It becomes obvious that one is out dated and useless to modern society.

In the end those accepting change and growth will prevail. The others will die off and become extinct because they has driven away their greatest resource. The followers that have no desire to associate with the radicals. Either that or it will cast them out as heretics!

Alan, further comment to peal back the layers of this onion would surely be considered "off topic". But this is one that I wish WHYS would explore. These differences are at the heart of the more surface debates posed.

I will say that the fight to not become "extinct" is very much a part of what drives "radicals" to exist. Attacks on Christians and other more modern Muslim ideologies are spawned from the same belief. We are all betting on a future as we envision it. Some would say our use of finite resources, an economy that seems to be based on nothing real or rational, and people so many generations away from having to survive off the land are doomed to extinction. (could you imagine the US with restrained energy, no welfare system, and no real financial backing to support basic tax obligations?) I truly don't know. I understand both arguments though. And i could see it going either way.

Christians are facing a wave of persecution and intolerance in Muslim dominated countries. Apart from the countless body count from bombs and attacks, places of worship are shrinking because most Muslim dominated countries does not grant permissions for building churches. Nigeria is no exception, in some states in Nigeria, impediments are placed in the way of any church construction, but such requirements are not necessary where mosques are involved. Even burnt churches by Muslim youths have not been rebuilt because new approvals are required and in most cases were not granted, or the environmental departments of the local authority just stoped the construction without any reason. Employments are scarce, if not prohibited, for Christians, most converts to Islam before they can get any form of employment. In states were Christians are minority, they face constant discrimination and threat to their livelihood. The introduction of sharia in some states of Nigeria is an extension and expansion of these discriminations.

"This is based on the West's experience of Christian rule and persecution in Europe; the Dark Ages. Separation made sense and worked in that context.

"Muslims have a different history and different experience of Islamic rule which brought the Golden Age to Muslims and Jews. The Dark Ages in Islam began with the decline/separation of Islam."
-------------------

Let me suggest a more credible alternative. Islamic countries are now in their dark ages, not because of any (wouldn't it be great) "separation of Islam," but quite the contrary. Because the average person in the street seems unable to separate their faith from reality, unable to accept the unknown as being unknown, unable to face up to the more active oppressors among them and call them out for what they really are. In the 21st Century, at the very least, there's just no excuse for this sort of behavior.

What Islam needs now, from its believers, is a whole lot more separation of church and state, within the culture. Less separation would not return anyone to any supposed past golden age. But it will perpetuate fear, ignorance, and intolerance.

People should understand clear that BBC wants something to exaggerate and that's why repetition come on the same theme.
Bbc are no longer imparlial.

Christian religion, within a capitalist context, is 'self-destroying'. This is because there is excess permissiveness under the guise of freedom of the individual. Gradually, the Christian population is dwindling, to the point where other religions feel more and more confident to intimidate Christians. I think Muslims are finding it more and more difficult to find the space in which to practice their religion because they are overwhelmed by the influence of 'Christian western societies'. We can't talk about persecution of Christians, but we can talk about extreme reaction to extreme permissiveness within Christiandom.

Muslim spokesmen often attempt to convince an audience of Infidels that Islam is a religion of “peace” and “tolerance.” If an audience shows signs of not being completely convinced, another tack that of Tu-Quoque, is attempted. Now these same spokesmen, who a minute before were all sweetness-and-light, begin to attack Christianity and Judaism for their own lack of “peace” and “tolerance.” They support this attack with bloodcurdling passages from Leviticus or some obscure text, possibly attributed to a rabbi from 2500 years ago. The Crusades are presented by Muslim apologists as a defining moment in Muslim-Christian relations, a moment in which the peaceful and inoffensive Muslims were attacked, without cause. In this version, not a word is uttered about the centuries of Muslim Jihad-conquest that preceded the Crusades, nearly 400 years of seizing lands formerly occupied by Christians in Mesopotamia, Syria, Egypt, North Africa. Hatred of the infidel is at the root of Jihad.

The thought of a similar attack on Muslims is hideous; my teenage daughter is with her Muslim friends at a sleep over. Our family are strong Christians. The attacks over the Christian holy days are gut wrenching. I read this today:
"It is sad that when Christians were supposed to be celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ, some people, out of wickedness, would come to perpetrate such evil,” said Rev Yuguda Ndirmva, Borno State Chairman of the Christian Association of Nigeria, after a series of attacks on Christmas Eve, 24 December. Seven explosions in Jos, Plateau State, Nigeria, killed 32 people and injured 74 more, following threats to disrupt Christmas celebrations in the area. On the same day a 30-strong mob of Muslim militants armed with guns, knives and petrol bombs attacked a church in the city of Maiduguri, killing five people, while another church in the city was attacked by three armed men, who murdered a security guard."

Have there been attacks on Muslims over Ramadan?

The Muslim world is crying for tolerance from the United States to build the Islamic Cultural Center in the shadow of what would be the World Trade Center Towers if the towers still existed and have shown their tolerance for Christians in Egypt. Egypt is a country that will not allow the Christians to build a new church anywhere in their country. One sided tolerance is not tolerance.

Religious intolerance is getting increased day by day. Some people are forgetting the very purpose of finding these religions. I feel some fanatics are interpreting new meanings & purposes to religious teachings. In these circumstances, the Question that whether one should still practice old religious teachings that are no more relevant to today's world becomes more important. Why only Christianity, all religions are getting affected in today's world. I no longer practice the religious customs of the religion I was born into. Science & Humanity are my religions & my knowledge, conscience & mind are my guides! And I respect everybody else's thoughts, beliefs, ideas like I do mine! I can live in harmony with all the people I come across. Do I need a religion to become a good human being? "No" is my firm answer!

To---Dwight from Cleveland wrote:

How wold you react if a Muslim army invaded The US and forced their idea of "prosperity" on you?


Please spell check your posts--but as an American Indian, I can only laugh at your comment, given the fact we've been living with a Christian military occupation of our homeland for a very long time.

Of course different religions can live in peace side by side. It would be a great mistake if we blame these attacks on all Muslims. Islam like other religions doesn’t induce its followers to assault the others. So we have to track down these terrorists and bring them to justice and leave all these religions in peace.

• 52. At 6:45pm on 04 Jan 2011, Lincoln Muri - Fort Myers Beach wrote:
Do away with religion, that's what I say! Can you imagine what a wonderful place this world would be?
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Well unfortunately you do not get it do you?

All this killing is nothing to do with ‘religion’ Religion is not the root cause of all this killing.

Human nature is.
You have Muslims killing other Muslim sects (Sunni’s killing Shias) etc, etc, Christians killing other Christian sects( Catholics killing protestants) etc, etc. You always did, you always will. All worship one god.
It is s old as time.
Just because the scores seem unfair has nothing to do with it.
And what about Mr Stalin or Mr Mao or Mr Hitler?
Mass murderers all, where was their god or religion?
I wonder if those tens of thousands of Russians in a gulag thought it was a wonderful world?

I think it is a tribal thing, always was.

The point I'd like to raise here is simple. For over a decade now Muslims have been at the back of nearly every bomb-blast and terrorist activity globally.Sept 11th, Bali, Sharm Al Sheikh, Nairobi Embassy bombings, July 7th, Mumbai, the Shoe-bomber, the Pant-Bomber, I could go on and on. We have been pointedly reminded that these are just a few Muslims and not all of them. I grudgingly agree. Consequently, profiling has been roundly condemned and called names. Meanwhile, when discussions over the current spate of killing and targeting of Christians in Muslim countries comes up, you have people wantonly condemning Christians as well of inspiring and being responsible for terrorist killings. I always wonder, where, how, when?

Sorry, but the point I was making in my last post(which was erroneously posted before it was finished) is why is the sin of Muslims visited on every other faith - particularly Christianity - whereas profiling of Muslims for the misdeeds of their "few" other brethren (and whom the majority hardly ever condemn) is seen as indefensible?

#41 Ahmed Saheed Alaiye
Thank you for proving my assertion that Islam keeps people disconnected from modernity and civilized behavior.

52. At 6:45pm on 04 Jan 2011, Lincoln Muri - Fort Myers Beach wrote:
Do away with religion, that's what I say! Can you imagine what a wonderful place this world would be?
=========
@Lincoln, I'll disagree. You are recommending that we toss out the baby with the bath water. I have severally posted on this blog how great has been the positive influence of religion on this earth.The Christian faith for instance has contributed in numerous unmatchable ways to life and progress where I come from and even beyond. Let me inform you that love, politics, football and a number of other things have led to plenty hardships, pains and even wars on this earth, but no one here is going to recommend we banish any of these things, are they? If some few followers of Islam are making you arrive at the conclusion you made, you should do a rethink, please and give some thought to the salubrious influences also of religion. Thank you.(Where's the preview button, pls?)

41. At 4:52pm on 04 Jan 2011, Ahmed Saheed Alaiye wrote:
The act of prosecuting or killing innocent lives in ISLAM is seen as committing a crime against the creator who ordered just and fairness in human dealings and if there is any muslim who go ahead in killing somebody he will seriously be dealt with by ALLAH on earth and hereafter. While, wagging a war against the muslims minority nation is not seen by the west as an act of terrorism rather it was welcome as a crusade which was carried out by most christian nation whom one way or the other has a vast political influence on the less muslim society by the virtue of preaching true democracy. Surprisingly, any retailation by the muslim intimidated who has no other way to fightback or voice out will be seen as an act of terrorism which will collectivily use on the average face of innocent muslims as a terrorist. How many times do we bother to ask ourselves the reasons behind those act which is mostly be politically influenced by the fanatics leader who has being looking for way to archieve his selfish interest at the expense of ISLAM integrity.
============

Thing is Ahmed, we've heard this line for long. It is used by those who perennially insist that Islam is a religion of peace.I would have absolutely no problem with that but that the few who speak by their actions entirely disagree with that line and the larger more moderate Muslims don't much feel the urge to take them up over this discrepancy of philosophies. I tell you what: I lived in a Northern Islamic State in Nigeria for a while.My experience was quite telling. Very commonly the Muslim faithfuls would round up their jumat Friday prayers and straightaway troop to the nearest church, set it ablaze and beat the pastor up and strip him naked. A few unfortunate ones have even been killed. The attackers never needed a provocation.The conventional Muslim leaders would only call for restraint and peace, but no one would condemn the action or seek to uncover its causes.
This has been the worldwide response of Muslims to violent actions of their brothers. Which suggests that there's more to all these than meets the eye.
Look here, there's nothing any other faith has done on this earth in this modern era in the name of that faith comparable to the mayhem that Muslims have presided over. And believe me, they really have nothing to use as justification. All the stories of Israel are lame because every other tribe, nation and people could say the same. My ancestral land called Bakassi for instance(you may have heard of it)was snatched and cut off into a neighboring country. I could go bombing and blasting away, but I won't. Aren't we beyond such extremists behavior in this 21st century?

Eagledancer,

LOL, I have pretty bad dyslexia and use Firefox because spell check runs on the application. Unfortunately, "wold" is a word.

My great grandmother was full Aapátohsipikáni. I agree. This highlights the tension that exist between religions and the people that hold the beliefs. "what harm could a couple of white men in boats cause?" right. "What harm could a couple of Wal-marts and McDonald's do in an Islamic culture?" "Who cares if some of Muslim people are supporting the enemies financial structure?"

So are extremist targeting just Christians, or are they targeting anything that looks to send their culture the way of the "native American".

I agree with reflector2 comment number 69.
Humans always want to pick at each other for differences. Doesn't matter religion, race, money, or sexual preference. Humans find a way to create conflicts, so those of you that want to live without religion, you still won't have peace. It goes against human nature.

So are extremist targeting just Christians, or are they targeting anything that looks to send their culture the way of the "native American".
---

I'd prefer walmart and mcdonalds any day to living in caves and forcing women to wear burkas and deny them education, like they do/did in afghanistan.

For having walmarts and Mcdonalds, we sure have lots of nobel prize winners here in the west, and we invent a lot of things.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Steve,

That is what "you" prefer. And it is your right to prefer that. The point being that many cultures look at our 51% divorce rate, largest population of depressed people, 2 income/ two parent working families, single homes, car payment, mortgage payment, indebtedness, Old pushed into nursing homes, and all those thing we claim make us "free" and say, "why would anybody what to live that way?"

Until we westerners grasp that not everybody sees us as "free" and reject it, we (collectively) will never understand why the extremist attack us and many of the moderates either support them OR turn a blind eye to them.

I would take the lifestyle of the Native American over what we have today.

#60, ibrahim mohamed barre: "Bbc are no longer imparlial"

In my comment to #28, EnochAdam at #37, which was rejected.
I thought BBC was "deferential and fair' to reporting on matters Islamic.

Hi Bert
The "average" Muslim does not have the freedom of political expression or protest. For every one attempted political protestor, there are 10 police with batons, and 10 secret police taking down names and addresses of his relatives. The problem of extremism (or any other national problem) cannot be tackled by a disunited, powerless population. It is a national project that needs strong leadership and national resources to address.
However, the leaders themselves are part of the problem, first through repressing the population (which pushes people with legitimate concerns underground into the arms of extremists), then through appeasing the most dangerous of extremists hence giving credibility, media and mosque access to the extremist teachings (which includes intolerance).
I think it is unrealistic for "the Muslim world" to tackle extremism while "the Muslim world" is run by unaccountable dictators who's primary concern is remaining in power through whatever means (including making deals with extremists). Non-violent grassroots political opposition to dictatorship is the best route but also the longest route to achieving change and accoutability, and a responsible, educated society empowered to meet the challenges it faces.

I think we can compare bigmacs to kebabs but not bigmacs to burkas (re 77). If we want to look at the extreme cases of cultures we can compare prostitution and under-age abortion vs forced burkas and forcing girls to stay at home.
The more conservatives would go for the stay-at-home option and would generally resist any foreign/new ideas even if they were better.

The West has a balance between liberals pushing for change, and conservatives resisting change, and both are free to put forward their ideas and convince people (WHYS being a great example). The "East" has dictatorships (who's prime concern is to remain in power), and people challenging dictatorships, both liberal and conservative, who have unequal freedoms.
Liberals mostly have lofty ideals but don't have guns or loud voices to rouse people; they can easily be suppressed with police violence and media crackdowns. Conservatives have greater appeal with the poor and can incite the religious classes (both groups are majorities in most dictatorships). It is easier for the dictatorship to appease them than to challenge them and risk confrontation. The balance is heavily skewed towards conservatives who lean towards resisting change and intolerance to anything (and anyone) new and different (which happens to suit dictators just fine).

I think it is a long journey befor change occurs and the leaderships becomes accountable to the people. The steps are being taken, but so are steps to thwart and derail this journey, which only makes it longer and more painful.

No one can deny the existence of tension between Muslims and Christians in Egypt but that terrorist act had nothing to do with it, it is much more sophisticated than the clashes that happen sometimes and result only in injuries.
This act is a result of the police force not being incapable of following radicals and holding off doing such an attack although there were numerous threats of attacks on Christians in Egypt.

What's the problem? Does Egypt have any FREEDOM of RELIGION clauses in its constitution? If not, those 'Christians' shall reap what they sow. Let them move across the pond to France, Spain, or iTaly.

Can Muslims and Christians ever ... LEAVE ... in peace???