On air: Should Greeks be more grateful for the bail-out?

Those who are protesting are not responsible for the governance that led to all this debt, and yet they are the ones who will have to sacrifice the most. It's no wonder that gratitude is the last thing on their minds.

while i cannot speak to the workings of international economics and where fault is to be placed, it should be said that Greece and the majority of nations around the world participate in a social contract. even though it may be the elders who have dug the financial hole that does not exempt those who did not participate with that in digging themselves and their countries back out. is it moral to pass along bad debts to people who had no part in it and whom do not reap the benefits? Yes, but that does not mean that they should not have to pay. i personally did not support George W. Bush's wars but as an American i do feel obligated to help in any way possible to clean up the mess he left. Many people argue that Germany and Japan were dealt a heavy had in reparations after World War II, people are still paying taxes for the unification of east and west Germany, but does this mean that they shouldn't pay? if we only had to deal with the reactions of our own actions then life may be much simpler. unfortunately people, separated and grouped according to nations, are like rivers; while the water in the river is never the same, it is still the same river. if anything can be said of the current situation is that it should be taken as an example for generations to come - Don't be too greedy, maintain humility, be respectful of others and know that the actions of today may be the earthquakes of tomorrow.

It doesn't matter. Because the same thing is going to happen in many other countries. And there's going to be no accountability.

The public will say, prosecute the greedy bankers.
The bankers will say, regulate us and we'll leave.
The politicians will make lots of tough-sounding speeches. But they'll never do anything to risk losing the "campaign funds" from the banks.

This is just the beginning.

Well, that one is quite complicated!

If there's anyone to blame are Greek themselves -or, at least, Greek Politicians, but, those come from the people, so...-

I can understand their rage but, at the same time, I feel that's something they must solve internally.

No, they don't need to be thankful for us "bailing them out" -we had no other choice if we wanted to save Euro- but, at least, they shouldn't be mad about anyone but their fellow Greek Politicians -and corporations-.

$146.2 billion is pocket change for Obama. The Greeks should tap him for a loan.

If were a young Greek, I would be feeling angry with all the past governments who have cooked the books, particularly the massive fiddle that let the country into the Eurozone in the first place, when, like Italy, it was actually far from the entry criteria. Perhaps a smidgeon of blame should be attached to the Franco-German axis who were so desperate to get this currency going that they turned a blind eye to all that creative accounting. Just like recent bank bail-outs ordinary people perceive that they are footing the bill, in terms of tax increases and cuts in social services, for the sins of all those who have made fortunes out of practices just as dubious as fiddling a tax return.
Having said that, a retirement age of 53 (?) for anyone doing anything but the most demanding physical job is plain nuts. I get very worked up about the other side of this coin, ageism, that forces people to retire whether they like it or not.
Italy and Greece have very similar systemic problems, not least widespread corruption and a bloated civil service, but the problem with cutting this is the massive rise in unemployment that would lead to - not something most governments would risk when youth unemployment is already sky high.
The euro has had its downsides for countries like Italy and Greece, its introduction led to massive cost of living increases and the old panacea of devaluation is no longer an option when the going gets tough, so it’s little wonder that the Greek on the street is less than thrilled.

Were The Greek people ever asked if they wanted to join The EU? Were they asked if they wanted to join The Euro? The only people to benefit will as usual be The unelected Brussels Bureaucrats who laugh all the way to their banks with our money. If The Greeks want to complain let them they have good reason.

Every country in the world is dealing with the aftereffects of the global economic crisis, even if we're well into the recovery phase. Many countries are racking up large debts in an effort to spend their economies back into shape. (The USA certainly is.)

Why should Greece be the one country that gets a bailout? Should they be rewarded because their behavior was perhaps a bit riskier than that of other countries? Where is the line drawn between a country that needs a bailout and a country that does not?

This has been framed as "bailing-out Greece" when it is really bailing out bankers in Germany, the UK and elsewhere who, as always, loaned money to a sketchy borrower - it's alleged that Goldman Sachs helped to hide Greece's sketchiness to facilitate their irresponsible borrowing - and make money when the debt is repaid but bear no risk knowing that they'll be repaid no matter how insubstantial the borrower. How is it that all the smartest bigshots in the EuroZone were taken-in by Greece's improbable claims to support their entry to the Euro? Gratitude? Greek citizens should be joined in their protests by every citizen of the EU who will pay for
the greed and ineptitude of bankers and politicians.

Greece as an EU member has to chance to have Eurozone members and the IMF to come to its rescue despite the conditions being unpopular among the Greeks.

For Greece what is done can't be undone. The Creeks should brace themselves for austerity measures. Its case shows that small economies are the first to be hit by global financial crises.

Germany is among the EU countries that is showing its biggest financial support. The Greeks should learn to support themselves by being clean towards each other. Greece is one of the most corrupt countries in the EU, plus tremendous tax evasions; that is, the Greeks cheat themselves and their government by not paying taxes. This should be redressed. Otherwise, the Greeks will have only themselves to blame and will get thankless responses from their EU partners.

The young people still benefited from Greece's generous social system, I never heard them protest the early retirement age and the 35-hour workweek and it's just too easy to blame everything on foreigners when the Greeks lied to the EU about their financial situation, meanwhile living the good life and spending an enormous amount of money on the military.

Yes, the Greeks they should be grateful the EU doesn't prosecute the Greek government and doesn't let Greece wallow in its own filth.

I don't expect much will change on the long run though, as long as Southern Europe doesn't adopt the work ethos that is common in Northern Europe, the US and Asia, they will remain the "sick man of Europe". There is no such thing as a free lunch: if you want good social programs you're going to have to pay a lot of taxes, it's that simple.



"Were The Greek people ever asked if they wanted to join The EU? Were they asked if they wanted to join The Euro? The only people to benefit will as usual be The unelected Brussels Bureaucrats who laugh all the way to their banks with our money."

That's ridiculous: Greece would be in much worse shape if it were not in the EU, the sheer amount of trade opportunities, let alone the generous EU subsidies, benefited virtually every Greek citizen, often at the expense of taxpayers in other EU countries.

@ModernJan
Right On Brother, I heartily agree and could not have said it better.

Its swings and roundabouts - I think the Greek people are more angry with their Government than being bailed out - which is ultimately something they will all have to go through whether they like it or not?
Plus, it makes me laugh, the world is going through this resession/crash yet Everyone blames the Bankers?... Agreed for the most part, the Bankers Are resonsible, but they would never have got us in this mess if people themselves did not squander money and spend, spend, spend like there was no tomorrow. The World nowadays pays on credit and it can't keep doing this and spenders will actually have to pay it all back one day (and sooner than they think!)

I think the problem in Greece is even more complicated than is being depicted. Apparently, there is a time-honored tradition since the days of Ottoman domination that Greeks don't pay sales taxes and only the public sector has taxes regularly deducted from their pay checks. In addition, the practice of "family businesses" that confines younger workers to low paying / non-paying jobs restricts the possibilities for economic growth. There seems to be an entrenched, cultural antipathy to the concept of "common good" on all levels of Greek economic and social communities that makes this "bail out" an just one more imposition by outsiders on the Greek people (who are historically very good at undermining outsiders' impositions). The Greek government is forced to work within 21st century international economic rules thanks to the Euro, but the Greek citizenry's mentality doesn't seem to connect with these rules, which bodes ill for success, both in Greece and for the Euro.

Clearly, some elements of Greek society have managed the wealth of the nation poorly. Perhaps they have done so to their profit, in which case the youth probably have very good reason to be irate. Unfortunately, neither their ire nor threatened demonstrations will set Greece upon the path to recovery.
g

Is it human nature to always blame the other guy? If Greece has more lavish pension plans, annual paid vacation, and other such entitlement programs, than the heavy lifeters in the Eurozone (i.e. Germany), then why should they blame anyone else? It's not the government or businesses that created the political climate, where two Communist Parties seem to be needed.

It's baffling why there was such emotional support for the single currency to begin with. Too much emotion, not enough sober thought. The so-called austerity measures are a wake-up call. Greeks and others in the Eurozone are going to have to get used to later retirement (is it age 60 now?), much less annual paid vacation (they now get 60 days??), and all the rest. It seems austere when you're used to such amenities.

The picture painted in the comments here and elsewhere regarding working hours, tax evasion, retirement age etc are far from correct.

Regarding the working hours:
'South Korea's hard-working citizenry is not alone. Greece comes second in the OECD's rankings with 2,052 hours worked on average each year...'
(http://www.forbes.com/2008/05/21/labor-market-workforce-lead-citizen-cx_po_0521countries.html)
Isn't it ironic that most of the internet crowd are ready to jump on the bandwagon of 'lazy Greeks', who are working the most hours per year in Europe?

Tax evasion is just not possible in the public sector. Likewise, the vast majority of private sector employees pay their income tax in full. Some professions are prone to tax evasion, in some the laws are outdated so the actual taxation is very low, but in general the statement that 'most Greeks don't pay taxes' is false.

The early retirement age is again a misconception. There are professions that can take advantage of loopholes and get their pension in full quite early. But these are exceptions. The normal retirement age is 60 for women and 65 for men. (Announced to become 65 for everyone in the next few years)

As for the current feelings, I think it's more important to see the changes in them. Left wing supporters that have been against the EU (and NATO, and the IMF, and pretty much any concept of western inter-country organization) are still against everything. They are loud enough to get the media attention, and might have gained some support by accusing the current system for this mess.
The Unions have announced strikes and demonstrations. Nothing new here either. It was the same people 2 years ago that started strikes for pay increase, retirement age reduction, working hours reduction etc., with the same zeal.
This leaves everybody else, that are just shocked by the turn of events. Of course the Greeks knew that the country wasn't financially sound, but they feel cheated by the Greek goverments. If the EU auditors accepted the false 2001 figures, how could the people know better?

Now, gratitude towards the EU/IMF is a given. People will protest in hope of the austerity measures affecting the next guy, but if the current goverment puts a serious effort in trying to tax 'farily' this too will die off.

Something that has not been presented by the media is the effects a default would have in Greece. That would certainly swing the feelings even more in favour of the participants of the bailout.

Of course Greeks should be greatful, especially those public service workers like the union leader we just heard speaking.
She lives in a fantasy land - to demand that public sector workers should have their jobs protected and pay maintained when the vast private sector workforce will have to fend for themselves in the dog eat dog free market! Public sector jobs have allways been seen as safe and comfortable, a job for life. As these jobs are safer than in the free market, these workers should shut up work harder, so they are not the ones culled.
To support a general strike is crazy. I would suggest to the prime minister, to use the general strike as a culling opportunity - all those who don't want a job, dont turn up for work tomorrow - we will give your job to the thousands of unemployed who are desperate for work!
If I was a private sector greek taxpayer I would demand this!

Several years ago a Conservative Republican told me that their strategy is to bury the US government so deeply in debt that the people have to give up all of the socially responsible programs like Social Security, Medicare, Public Schools, any and all safety nets, because Conservatives consider them to be "Socialism".

Over the last thirty or so years there has been an outbreak of Conservatism into governments around the world, the US, France, Italy, Germany, the IMF, the World bank, etc, and now it looks like they are attacking Greece with the Conservative Strategy of burying the nation in debt to get rid of so called "Socialistic" programs.

Doesn't it look like Conservatism is in a Monetary War against "The People"?

If the Greeks can't take personal responsibility of their situation and continue to point blaming fingers at abstract "government" and "middle-aged" entities, this fiasco will reoccur and the bailout will fix nothing.

What an incredibly patronising question to ask the Greek people! Most don't care if they were bailed or not...They are protesting because of the price they are paying for the farce that is the euro. It just doesn't work that is being proved right now......Let it collapse.... people will survive.

The situation is too fluid. Gratitude will be shown when tempers cool.

There are many generalities and not enough specifics. What we need to see is specifcs about what the national differences are in the Eurozone. How to pay raises compare? Annual leave? Retirement plans? Retirement age?

It's not possible to have a common currency if these comparisons aren't favorable for all member nations. Of course labor rules might have to change.

Look at what is happening to retirement plans in the US, for example. They are disappearing altogether. People are expected more and more to retire on their own investments and savings. It wouldn't susprise me at all if this sort of "austerity measure" will also happen in the EU.

It seems obvious to me that the underlying complaint among the Germans and Frech is that this huge loan is not likely to get repaid.

The Greek speaker, Markia, is representative of the prevailing Greek attitude of indifference toward the generosity of the peoples of the European Union who have other uses for the funds used to bail out the inept financial acumen of the Greek business community. Marika seems to believe by obfuscating the issue by, first, either deliberately explaining how Greeks won't each receive $56,000 each or, worse, her not understanding the clearly spoken intended message of the per capita pro rata being that amount. Moreover, and most telling is how, throughout her rude tirade, Marika never once expressed gratitude. Sad, sad, sad.

I'm from Bulgaria, and I know many people, who working in Greece. All of them claim that Greece people are laziest people of the world. Tho lowest salaries are not in Greece, they are in Bulgaria. Sorry but when digits speak, gods are silent.

I wonder how much of this debit was incurred and not payed for when Greece held the Olympics. The Greek public needs to pay there taxes and understand the severity of there situation.

I'm a little bit disapointed, becouse now Greece becomes a reason, to refuse us access to euro zone. I think it is fairly unfair.

You can't compare the Argentinian crisis! One of the reasons Greece is in trouble is because it couldn't control the value of it's currency, one of the main mechanisms for cotrolling state economies.

Greece should never have joined the Euro in the first place. The country exists by exports of olive oil and tourism. Right now it is the most expensive country to visit and cannot compete with Turkey. I think Greece should have left the euro right now and put two fingers up to the Germans. Greece has a small population and is probably close to self sufficient in food. The new drachma would have caused a 25% devaluation and Greece would have become by far the cheapest northern Mediterranean holiday centre overnight. Everyone would have flocked there for holidays this year and the problem would be solved (for the Greeks of course - not the rest of the euro zone)

The Greeks are never grateful for anything. The first question should be: since they have gotten themselves in such a financial mess how are they even going to repay the bailout money, much less all the rest? Should Greece now stay in the Eurozone or opt out?

"Regarding the working hours:
'South Korea's hard-working citizenry is not alone. Greece comes second in the OECD's rankings with 2,052 hours worked on average each year...'
(http://www.forbes.com/2008/05/21/labor-market-workforce-lead-citizen-cx_po_0521countries.html)
Isn't it ironic that most of the internet crowd are ready to jump on the bandwagon of 'lazy Greeks', who are working the most hours per year in Europe?

Leonidas"

Those statistics can't be true: they say the Greeks (and Italians) work harder than the Dutch, Americans and even the Japanese, a ridiculous notion. Working 2052 hours a year means working for 8 hours a day 5 days a week throughout the year (no vacation), are we really supposed to believe that the Greeks work that much? My guess is that whatever statistic that was used is prone to manipulation and forgery, just like Greece's official deficit was only half of the real deficit. Maybe the Greeks count their siesta as working hours.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Most Greeks do not wish to lower their standard of living. By accepting the bailout, they would be forced to tighten their belts. But they should bear in mind too that their friends in other EU members would be dragged down to foot their overdue bills and thus subject to pay higher taxes.

Otherwise, where would the hundred billions come from? Certainly not by printing more new notes?

Count your blessings.
(btt1943)

Ros:

Of course--The Greek citizens should be more grateful for the amount of money (in lieu) Bail-out that they are going to receive from the European Union and the I.M.F. over the next several years...I understand that there will be many things that will be given up on...

(D)

Greece was an exceptional case of some terribly extravagant and dismal functioning of its financial institutions; It was, primarily, their couldn't-care-less attitude, and lack of governmental control over the economy-regulators, that was responsible for the crises. Frankly speaking, the fact of the matter is, that, besides the damage done in the previous and to some extent the prevailing global economic crises, many of the governments/countries, within the gambit of the EU and the Euro-zone, are increasingly becoming complacent or feeling too-assured about the rescues or the bail-outs.

the marende(speaker of parliament) and whole government of greece must be removed from power...that government could be an ignorant lot like the kenyan speaker of parliament and the other principals in the coalition..its now years since marende knows what i do during parliament seccions....and he is still ignoring,yet he is another luhya...bure mtu kama huyu...even right now,he could be peeping on my yahoo email account

TV(tambua village/jebrock),HAMISI,VIHIGA,KENYA.

It seems from reports that one of the main reasons the Greek government is in trouble is that anybody who is not employed by the state avoids paying taxes. As a result the country is largely paid for by the taxes of state employees, like pensioners, teachers and firemen, and using borrowed cash.

The response of the Greek government to the crisis is not to get the well off to pay tax, but to cut the pay of those who work for the state and cannot avoid paying tax. This will have the result of making the tax income of the government less. So they will have to borrow more, or cut pensions and wages further. The Greek government's fear of upsetting the rich tax avoiders would be just a joke, if it was not exactly the same as the tactic the UK incoming government intends to use on it's own public employees and pensioners.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

PART 4: As for the Greeks' gratitude, the money that Greece will receive is not free money, as some have suggested. The money must be repaid, and at usorious interest rates. Germany will profit again, in the long run, when Greece repays the interest. So, please, spare us this talk of the necessity for Greek gratitude. The so-called bail-out package (which is really just a loan) is fraught with political and economic implications which are beyond the ken of most of the BBC's listening public.

And, finally, it's worth noting that numerous other municipal and sovereign economies are on the verge of collapse, not the least of which are California's and Ireland's (both larger than Greece's), but none of these has been targeted and calumniated the way that Greece's has. Add to this the fact that, to some extent, the Greek crisis has been precipitated, by certain private concerns, not the least of which are the speculators and the private rating agencies, the interrelationship of which is poorly understood and poorly regulated. Advice to the public: please do not venture uninformed opinions; for those of you in need of further education, please read the International Herald Tribune.

Thank you.

The people of Greece are upset because they are paying the price not only for their society's irresponsibility, but for the irresponsibility of Northern European banks that bought their debt.

Furthermore, they are upset because the austerity measures won't permit economic recovery, and will promote more tax evasion.

Greece would be better served by with drawing from the Euro and devaluing its currency than by being yoked to ill-suited monetary policies.

The "Bailout" has strict repayment provisions and can only be said to benefit the banks. It's fatuous to "blame Greece" or "blame Germany" - the bailout will not work.

I cannot see that Germans gave cheap credit to Greece and other countries for philanthropic purposes. The cheap credit kept the German factories working, it allowed the German industrialists to buy more than 50%, of Greece's money producing facilities ex: airports, telephone co., etc, and they did not spend any money to create jobs that would stay in the country.

This is not the first time that the Germans especially, seem to love to want get oil from stones, as we say. After the 400 years of Ottoman slavery, the imposition of German kings to Greece, WWI, and especially WWII (where more than 10% of the population was eliminated, should I say for philanthropic reasons?) may be the Germans should take a better look at the mirror and not look for new scapegoats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Greece_by_Nazi_Germany

B

FYI: The speculators who were betting on the Greek bailout has made record profits. Now, Greek debt is more profitable than Brazilian debt.

Question.: SHOULD THE GREEKS BE GRATEFUL THEY ARE BEING BALED OUT ?..Would this situation have occured, if they had not joined the EURO ! I think the status quo should be the order of the day.To me the EURO has only benefited Polititians, as another employment exchange, to claim double pension packages, more inflated expenses, etc, etc,it has only caused bickering and in fighting, and droves of people looking for something for nothing. !!!!

The EURO zone will never work, there are over 300 euro mps trying to say one size of economics suits all. Their economies are all different like the sizes of the expensive suits they wair,and each country need to be left alone to manage their own affairs, in all things. Is this not common sense.

Today demonstrators in Greece attacked a bank and three employees of the bank were killed during this attack. One of the demonstrators, interviewed by the BBC said that although this is tragic, it should be understood and the greek government is responsible for this... I am shocked to hear that, while other EU citizens, taxpayers, (non greek) and countries are making sacrifices (several EU governments have already voted aids for the bailout of Greece), the greeks themselves prefer violent and totally irresponsible demonstrations (with a total lack of respect to rules of democracy) in order to make the point that they do not seem to be ready to make sacrifices in order to save their own country. Although it is well known that in any severe crisis, the natural tendancy is to seek for culprits and to point fingers to the neighbour, I think it is totally inappropriate, under the current circumstances to behave as the greek demonstrators do (they do not propose any realistic alternative to the governments plans and to the help given by other EU-countries). They seem also to forget that Greece, as many other countries, has also a lot benefited from Europe. I come from Belgium, a small country which would, undoubtedly, not have survived the financial crisis if it had not been a member of the eurozone. The time is now to look to the future and to have a few years of austerity, and not to search in the past or to behave in a total irresponsible and anti-democratic way. Demonstrations are part of democracy, but not the kind of scenes we are witnessing today. Under such conditions, and if the greek government cannot pursue its austerity plan, it seems fair to me that other countries withdraw their aid packages and that Greece steps out of the Eurozone (which would be sad, but logical).

The fact of the matter is, we don't really know much about the real reasons for the Greek demonstrations, as the reporters don't interview the people just film them and say "they're protesting".

The German government (mainly due to electioneering) has stalled as much as it could and it even took a call from president Obama to get Merkel off her haunches.

The German inaction has now allowed the speculators to bring Greece to its knees and endangered the rest of the Euro-zone economies.
The bullying tactics the German politicians want to employ in the future (alloying countries to go to the wall) and then take away their voting rights is completely hypocritical (as the German government received letter after letter from Brussels around 2003-2005.

They didn't want to be fined or loose their voting rights because they were not keeping within the Euro-zone borrowing rules. This bossing around of the smaller Euro economies just isn't good enough.

Germany likes to impose its will on others, but hate getting their own hands dirty.

The subject of the discussion ("Should the Greeks be more grateful for the bail-out?") is polemical and condescending. Greece is most certainly at fault for having mismanaged its finances and falsified its accounts, but if we're going to talk about whether Greeks should be grateful (most especially to the Germans), then we need to remember a little history, despite comments above to the contrary. Greece is a tiny nation of fewer than 12 million people, and has historically been manipulated by other, stronger nations, to their own ends. If the Greek nation lags in its ability to meet the challenges of participating in a modern-day European economy, that is because Greece is at a unique disadvantage compared to its northern and western European counterparts. Greece was occupied by the Ottoman Turks for approximately 400 years, and was effectively isolated from the rest of Europe. Greece missed out on all the important developments of modern Europe, including the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, and the Industrial Revolution, and lacked critical infrastructure until the last century. With the advent of World War II, Greece was once again occupied, this time by the Germans. The Germans wreaked havoc in Greece; they destroyed its economy and its infrastructure, murdered hundreds of thousands of its citizens, despoiled it of its resources, and sowed the seeds of the ensuing civil war. The Germans also failed to pay war reparations which were due to Greece, and, yet, now the Germans balk at lending Greece aid. The irony is that Germany is now the economic powerhouse of Europe only because the United States rebuilt the Germany economy under the Marshall Plan, following the war. The purpose of the Marshall Plan was to revive the German, French, and British economies as capitalist institutions, and, thereby, to stave off the spread of Communism. Immediately following World War II, Greece was plunged into civil war, due in part to the British, who wished to establish Greece as a geo-political bulwark against the Soviet Union. A mere twenty years after the end of the civil war, a CIA-backed military junta overthrew the Greek government. Suffice it to say that Greece has been a pawn of other nations for hundreds of years, always to its detriment.