Adrian Pengelly's healing hands

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• 1. At 8:52pm on 17 Sep 2009, duffers172 wrote:

  i cant believe people like this can state claims to this extent. i myself have had cancer and i am sickened that he can claim to give false hope to sufferers. its wrong and should never be allowed to happen

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• 2. At 9:00pm on 17 Sep 2009, poptastical wrote:

  The most frightening sentence on his website (among the many) is this one: "nobody is ever refused treatment."
  
  Getting angry at the BBC is clearly a better response than trying to prove your methods through the conventional scientific methods.
  
  Thank you for highlighting charlatans like this one. I hope you will continue to help sick and vulnerable people see that people like "Sir" Adrian will try to manipulate and exploit them.

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• 3. At 9:00pm on 17 Sep 2009, tinhatstef wrote:

  Normally on Watch Dog people are riped off and are complaining about poor service from a rogue traders.
  
  In regards to Adrian Pengelly they got a bunch of people happy with his work, then showed him as a rogue trader!!! Isn't this a bit backwards???

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• 4. At 9:01pm on 17 Sep 2009, danniscott29 wrote:

  omg! i usually watch and like rogue traders but i have to say this story is absolutely ridiculous! And a complete waste of tax payers money!
  Adrian as far as i can see has done nothing wrong and is only helping people with his treatments. (NB i have never heard of him before today) There are obviously many people who have been helped by him and of course there will be no scientific proof as his work is not scientific!! Watchdog is going down hill.

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• 5. At 9:01pm on 17 Sep 2009, stu4vicky wrote:

  This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

• 6. At 9:03pm on 17 Sep 2009, stoobz1 wrote:

  The whole item was prefaced that complimentary mededcine is a scam. I wonder how you justify this when a majority of health professionals responded to a survey by stating that if they were diagnosed with cancer they would not submit to chemotherapy. Does this suggest that they would seek an alternative solution? There are undoubtedly more ways to treat cancer than the traditional methods which have failed to save several members of my family. This was merely negative programming.

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• 7. At 9:04pm on 17 Sep 2009, stevefowles wrote:

  This really is a witchhunt - whether or not the guy was capable, he certainly came across as genuine , supported by people who he'd treated. There was never any indication that he was out to make money. Surely surely there are more worthwhile causes to direct your attention towards. This was a ridiculous vendetta which you should have stopped when it became appararent that he was, if nothing else, a genuine person. I have never met him nor heard of him before - but now if nothing more he has my sympathy.
  Please try and choose more worthwhile subjects to investigate.

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• 8. At 9:04pm on 17 Sep 2009, ady2008 wrote:

  Hi. I'd just like to say that I thought your account of Adrian Pengelly's procedures very irreverant and disrespective of his methods. You did not seem to go into detail at all. I was appalled at how you considered his treatment of the horse. You watched only the first step of his treatment. I had never heard of Adrian Pengelly but would like to point out that holistic medicine does not necessarily look at the same point of diagnosis as traditional western medicine. It MAY have been that it was from this point that Adrian Pengelly was working. We have a lot of faith in "alternative" therapies these days and it is vitally important that we include alternatives therapies into our general outlook of health.
  I would say that overall, the impression came across that you started out from the objective that you would deliberately put a negative slant on this mans activities.
  - extremely poor journalism.

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• 9. At 9:05pm on 17 Sep 2009, platinummilkiemoo wrote:

  This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

• 10. At 9:08pm on 17 Sep 2009, Rayner22 wrote:

  I have just watched, this assasignation of this peaceful man, unraval before my eyes. I think, your portrayl is utterly apauling, and as a Reiki Healer, I understand, that Spiritual Healing is not understood by people, who are shallow minded, and simply have no understanding, faith, or beleif. I do not profess to heal the sick, and Andrew most certainly doesn't. Our compassion and love, is always, ever abundant, and people like us, would never, go out of their way to mis lead, we would be deeply sorry and very upset if we had. I always, explain, that I AM NOT A DOCTOR and that patients, MUST adhere to what their Doctor instructs, Reiki and Spirit Healing, can work alongside Doctors, it is not, harmful, and is available to us all. Your programme, is great at exposing cowboy plumbers and builders etc, but has not the expertise, insight and understanding, of Healing in a psychic capacity. I think you owe this man, a big apology, it was more like a witch hunt, and has discredited, a very compassionate, kind man, who above all, has never contridicted anyone. You have simply taken his words and misinterpreted them. I think you should be ashamed, and need to broaden your horizons first, before mud slinging.

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• 11. At 9:09pm on 17 Sep 2009, Richard_A_M wrote:

  Whilst watching this item on this evening's programme, I wondered how the "scam" it portrayed differed from any claimimg to cure by faith or in the name of a God. I can see no logical difference between the two potentially illegitimate claims. Would Watchdog do a similar "Rogue Trader" piece on a Faith Healer?

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• 12. At 9:09pm on 17 Sep 2009, juddyinfrance wrote:

  Yes, great programme, expose the charlatans, but you never achieved a thing!
  
  Whilst I am entirely sceptical about all things spiritual, nothing was proven either way!
  
  He diagnosed the horse with a dodgy knee but we never saw any evidence of his remedy being administered or monitored! Just left with some highly expensive vet saying " He's talking rot"
  
  With the cancer patients, did we see a "control" of patients submitting to his treatment without previously receiving chemo etc? No we did not. So who's to say whether he's a charlatan or not? Where is the real evidence either way?
  
  I'd prefer to think that he was a complete charlatan and that he shouldn't be allowed to make restoritive claims, but, where are the scientific controls? Should we just accept Matt's hyped up rhetoric?

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• 13. At 9:28pm on 17 Sep 2009, ggspirit wrote:

  I my self am a Psychic Medium and I do Healing but I would never say that I can cure people or not to follow their doctors adveice. I only give a boost to help the medication and an energy boost. That is it and that is all a healer can do. Adrian Pengelly had no right to say he can help cure people like that or he can help spirit when he can't. I have been a medium most of my life and it is not something to be made fun of. I can prove the abilities that I have he can't. I also believe that Watch Dog could have Proven this a lot better if they used a proven Medium.

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• 14. At 9:51pm on 17 Sep 2009, icemerseyboy wrote:

  I knew Adrian some years ago having met him through friends. He always came across as very personable, likeable and genuine - even came to our wedding!
  
  It was interesting to see an item on "Watchdog" about someone you have personal experience of, as it gives you a different view on the programmes balance. I felt it was fair - people can make up their own minds. I can't judge Adrian's alleged abilities but felt sad that he made the comments he did about trad. cancer treatments. I felt he massively oversold himself to very vulnerable people.
  
  

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• 15. At 9:58pm on 17 Sep 2009, Angwh19 wrote:

  Since watching the programme I have tried to look on Adrian Pengelly's website- which has miraculously disappeared!! In previous interviews (2000- 2005) he has not mentioned cancer patients- mainly animals, horses in particular- saying he has cured 100% of all his patients when clearly he did not know that the 'guinea pig' horse called Patrick (great name for a horse by the way) had an incurable problem in his hoof and NOT his knee!! As a horse owner I have had a healer work on my horse- she was more than happy to work WITH the vet's diagnosis AND treatment!!
  
  My father, uncle and aunt from the same family all died of various cancers- none of them would have gone anywhere near a spiritual healer- my father in particular wasn't particularly religious and we had a hard job getting him to our GP!!
  
  Because of the increased risk of cancer in our family if I was diagnosed I would be looking for alternative treatment AS WELL AS taking prescribed treatment- Adrian Pengelly told the fully recovered cancer patient 'guinea pig' he has a 60-65% success rate AND that patients having chemo slows down his healing!! If he was genuine I'm sure he'd want to work WITH hosital treatment and not against it??
  
  Sorry to all those above saying Watchdog were biased against this man but myself I'm very sceptical about his claims- yes he may be a nice man and have a lot of satisfied 'patients' but some of his claims ARE dangerous, especially to a cancer sufferer desperate for a cure............

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• 16. At 10:01pm on 17 Sep 2009, wonderpolly14 wrote:

  I could not believe what I saw on watchdog tonight.
  The programme totally discredited alternative medicine/therapies.
  Some people have great belief in these, and generally any positive thinking when you have a serious illness can only be a good thing.
  This man has been labelled by the BBC as a 'Rogue' when all he has done is offer faith & hope to people, he did not tell the lady shown on film, that she should not have the chemo, He simply said if it was a family member he would not recommend that they would have the treatment. That is his belief, fact or not, its not the issue, he is entitled to his opinions as we all are. He never once showed anger or aggression when challenged, he remained calm at all times. Looking at the number of comments in support of this man, i think Watchdog should re-look at the way they have dealt with this. He should receive an apology at the very least. Absolutely disgraceful.
  If this is the biggest fish the BBC have to fry with our licence fee
  then what a total waste of time & money.
  

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• 17. At 10:18pm on 17 Sep 2009, MrsFairyDust wrote:

  Look at these people below.....defending THIS man!
  Outrageous.....I think the clip of him using his mediumship skills should be put on "You've Been Framed"
  If he was that much of a medium/healer....... He would have got it right or been suspisious about the whole thing!
  Clearly everyone outside the village hall were locals after some media attention.
  HE ADMITED WITH HIS OWN WORDS PEOPLE ON NATIONAL TV...... HE CAN CURE CANCER!! Well if that's the case...... Lets do away with the NHS and head off to see SIR ADRIAN PENGELLY for £30 a pop.
  I find it disgusting that this man had the ordasity to SUGGEST that people suffering with cancer should stop Chemo/cancer treatments. These people are vulnerable and he's taken advantage of them. I noticed that the lady speaking for SIR Adrian outside the village hall did feel that Sir Adrian had CURED her..... But she also said that the tumour had shrank after having Chemo...... Well there you go, the chemo did it's job then.
  WELL DONE ROGUE TRADERS, YOU DID A FABULOUS JOB IN BRINGING THIS MAN TO LIGHT FOR ALL TO SEE :)

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• 18. At 10:31pm on 17 Sep 2009, tastyalex wrote:

  The BBC did nothing to disprove Adrian Pengelly's healing powers. We are all capable of healing to some extent as is evident in the placebo effect. There are also many examples of people recovering from cancer completely that remain scientifically unexplained by western medicine.
  
  I think Watchdog has been completely unfair to Mr Pengelly in this case and holding up his framed portrait at the end of the programme while at the same time, declaring him as a 'Rogue Trader' is nothing less than disgusting and insensitive behaviour.
  
  The Watchdog team should be ashamed.

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• 19. At 10:43pm on 17 Sep 2009, brightJohn456 wrote:

  Well done, Watchdog! I have been dismayed reading the comments so far, but unfortunately not surprised. Pengelly should feel the full force of the law for 'claiming to treat cancer'. It was obvious to any dispassionate observer that you have demonstrated that he is a fraud. Any suggestion that he is merely deluded was quicky dispelled by his very careful defence when challanged on what he had actually claimed.
  Unfortunately, as the comments received to date demonstrate, clear evidence is unable to convince many.
  
  Short of doing a complete audit of all the deaths among those he claims to have treated with cancer, I cannot see what more could have been done.
  
  ADRIAN PENGELLY - ROGUE TRADER AND MENACE.

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• 20. At 10:55pm on 17 Sep 2009, WooBasher wrote:

  It's up to Pengelly to provide EVIDENCE that he can do what he claims to do. There are several possibilities open to him?
  
  First, he could produce some of the cured cancer patients whose testimonials appear on his website (which has been altered recently, but the examples below are taken from the original version).
  
  
  IL of Shropshire – who also seems to be a New Age healer - gives Pengelly the credit for making her cancer disappear:
  
  "For the past three months I have had need of healing from Adrian myself. I was diagnosed August/08 with a 4cm breast cancer tumour. I had weekly healing treatments with Adrian until I was operated on four weeks later. My surgeons report was - the tumour when removed was 2.5cm, with no cancer spread!! I think this result speaks for itself!!"
  
  Had she received conventional medical treatment? We aren’t told, but her testimonial implies that Mr Pengelly was the sole cause of this happy outcome.
  
  IL goes on to make a strange claim:
  
  "Healers like Adrian and also myself have been invited by top universities [Cambridge/Oxford] and leading research organisations to take part in healing research work with them. You are screened and monitored, not only for the high calibre of healing, but also for one's integrity when working with medical, veterinary, drug establishments and the general public. This standard of work is only attained by many many years of devoted committment to the healing profession, for the wellbeing of humanity - NOT excess material gain."
  
  Mr Pengelly, please tell us exactly which universities and research organisations you’ve worked with!
  
  JC of Worcester also gives Adrian the credit for keeping her cancer, for which she had received chemotherapy, in remission:
  
  "I first went to see Adrian Pengelly in February 2008 - this followed a diagnosis of a breast cancer spread to my liver in July 2007. I underwent a course of chemotherapy which shrunk my tumour but it remained inoperable and the hospital could only offer me palliative treatment.
  
  Adrian was recommended to me by a work colleague who had previously received treatment for cancer - she remains clear of the disease some 9 years after the initial diagnosis. At our initial meeting in February, I was weak from the chemo and other drugs, my liver functions were abnormal and I was very negative and extremely frightened. Adrian knew nothing about me and by using his hands as scanners, he correctly diagnosed my condition. Within a week of the first healing session my liver functions returned to normal and have remained so since. My most recent scan shows the disease is being held and that there are no signs of any further spread. Adrian has also helped me with advice on lifestyle and diet changes - I am stronger, my health has improved and I am completely positive with regard to my future.
  
  My family and friends instantly noticed the change in me following my healing sessions and all feel that Adrian has worked miracles.
  
  Adrian is the gentlest, kindest and most positive person I have ever met and I owe him so much. He has given me my life back and turned me from cancer victim to cancer survivor."
  
  It doesn't seem to occur to JC that it was the course of chemotherapy that turned her from a cancer victim to a cancer survivor, not Adrian Pengelly and his imaginary "energy".
  
  HE of Australia writes:
  
  "I was in the UK, in 2003, when I developed what was diagnosed as Polymyalgia. Time, and steroids were offered by conventional medicine as the possible cures. On my friend's recommendation I had two sessions with Adrian. My symptoms disappeared and have not returned. I have no hesitation in endorsing Adrian's gift of healing. I have no idea how he does what he does but I have first-hand experience of his gentle and powerful healing abilities. If I were to contract a serious illness, eg cancer, I would leave Australia and move to somewhere close to him and ask him for help. He is a rare and gifted person and he achieves positive results for many people. He has my wholehearted endorsement as a person and as a healer."
  
  "If I were to contract a serious illness, eg cancer, I would leave Australia and move to somewhere close to him." Why? Wouldn’t it be cheaper and easier for Mr Pengelly to carry out Distance Healing?
  
  K of Herefordshire provides one of those odd testimonials so frequently encountered on New Age sites – it goes into great detail about the patient’s ailments but doesn’t say exactly what, if anything, the healer did to improve the situation.
  
  "I have known Adrian for just over six years. Mine is a cocktail of medical problems which go back to Hodgkins Disease, originally diagnosed in 1965. I received very early radiotherapy which badly scarred my chest. Later I also received the very first chemotherapy, also violent. Between them, they saved my life and I was one of the first to survive the illness, but they have caused long-term damage. In 2001 I had an aortic valve replacement, but because I also have osteoporosis my sternum would not mend and I got serious infections. In all I had eight operations spread over four and a half months, each of them life-threatening, and lost my sternum altogether. I also acquired a lot more chest scarring. In addition I have asthma and thyroid problems. I also suffer from oedema and have to take a lot of diuretics. I get extremely breathless and cough constantly.
  
  Through all this time I have found Adrian supportive and professional. He obviously cares very much about his work and refers to other patients with sensitivity, concern and yet also discretion. I have recommended him to various other people, all of whom felt he was able to help them.... I can not, hand on heart, say that Adrian's healing is what has made the difference in each case, but if I did not believe in him I would not keep on going to see him, nor would I keep on recommending him."
  
  Unfortunately he or she ruins the otherwise fairly reasonable tone of the testimonial by adding:
  
  "I have heard many remarkable stories [about Adrian]. Cancer patients whose tumours have lessened or disappeared are the easiest to quantify."
  
  BH of Birmingham was also impressed:
  
  "I was medically diagnosed as suffering from pancreatic cancer and given 3 months to live unless a major operation was performed. Following this diagnosis - and by now severely jaundiced - I contacted Adrian Pengelly and sought his advice. He had no hesitation in diagnosing that my condition was not cancerous, but the result of an autoimmune condition. However, because of the severity of the life-threatening jaundice, Adrian advised I should undergo surgery to relieve the blockage caused by my swollen liver.
  
  The operation went ahead and much to the amazement of the surgeons no cancerous tissue was found to be present: the condition described as a rare form of autoimmune pancreatitis. The pancreas was left intact, but I was warned I would most likely develop diabetes and need medication for the rest of my life.
  
  Following surgery I was extremely weak, lost over 3 stone in weight and severely depressed. I immediately returned to Adrian who proceeded to build up my energy levels. I have now gained weight and been fully discharged from the hospital: no sign of diabetes or any other disorder, and no need for medication of any kind - and living life to the full.
  
  Adrian Pengelly is an incredible healer, possessed of a unique gift. His is a confidential and positive approach. He is an honest and straight-talking man, and doesn't suffer fools gladly. He makes no extravagent claims, and dismisses the idea that he is a miracle worker."
  
  This seems to be a case of misdiagnosis on the doctor's part. And it doesn't take any mysterious skills to recognise the very visible symptoms of severe jaundice! As for Mr Pengelly's website, it consists of virtually nothing BUT extravagant claims and thinly-veiled insinuations that he is a miracle worker.
  
  MG of Herefordshire writes:
  
  "In April 2007, I was diagnosed with cancer of the liver and lungs, probably secondaries of a bowl cancer. At that time, the oncologist told me I had four months to live (Six at the outside). I underwent chemotherapy for a year, but eventually the side effects of the treatment outweighed any possible benefits and, on doctors advice, the chemotherapy ceased in June 2008.
  
  I have been a patient of Adrian Pengelly since June 2007. The combination of his undoubted gifts, his high professional standards and the atmosphere of calm and harmony which he has created in his consulting room have, I am convinced, contributed greatly to my survival."
  
  It is now one year and four months since MG’s doctor advised that chemotherapy should be discontinued. When did Mr Pengelly receive this testimonial? Is MG still alive? I think we should be told.
  
  AP of London’s testimonial is particularly disturbing:
  
  "What can I tell you about Adrian Pengelly? I think I have to start with me. Many years ago as a professional dancer with a back injury, I experienced healing from an exceptional healer in London (she is now living abroad). In the process I discovered my own innate ability and began working as a healer myself. Later I trained as a Movement Psychotherapist and worked in psychiatry within the NHS and in private practise.
  
  In 2004 I found myself faced with a medical team strongly suggesting surgery because scans showed that I may have a carcinoma hiding under a benign tumour which if ignored could become life threatening. I spent two weeks researching and a week meditating. The following day I saw Adrian's number which had come my way along with many other options, I'd scribbled it on the edge of a news paper ...horse whisperer Worcestershire.
  
  I made contact and was offered a five minute scan for Adrian to assess my condition. I took a day off work and travelled up from London to Droitwich where I found a calm young man in a barn type structure on a farm. I shook his hand and said to him, "I don't know anything about you but I've chosen to travel a hundred miles to see you for five minutes; tell me why I should trust you with something so serious..." Adrian said "because I'm proved right more than 92% of the time..."
  
  He spoke with conviction and simplicity; he used his hand to scan me, and I immediately recognised the energy of profound healing. He did pick up some activity, said he could help and offered me a course of sessions. I travelled up every week and I am well. Since then, self employed and having received healing for a serious foot injury, when there has been a cash flow problem, Adrian makes it clear that lack of money does not mean sessions stop. He will reduce or even waive his fee if necessary.
  
  Healing is multi-layered, physical, emotional, psychological, and spiritual. I would recommend him for any condition though particularly for any of my clients who have cancer, as Adrian once said, "I seem to have a knack for it!" Adrian has a confidence born out of his success and an attitude of service born out of his acceptance and commitment to use his ability for the well being of others, adults, children and animals.
  
  He is without guile and his presence is wholesome and ordinary in the most extraordinary way."
  
  AP was warned that he or she may have a potentially life-threatening cancer, but instead of having surgery went to see a fellow New Age healer who claimed to be PROVED right more than 92% of the time. Is AP still “well”? Did he or she ever seek conventional medical treatment? Is AP still alive?
  
  Another reply on Mr Pengelly's FAQ page is rather disturbing:
  
  "I have cancer and would like to see Adrian, but I don’t want to stop my medical treatment. Is that OK?
  
  Of course, that is no problem at all. In general Adrian is happy to work with people having conventional medical treatment. However, it can sometimes slow his work and chemotherapy certainly affects his sensitivity so that he may not be able to sense your energy as deeply as usual. But many hundreds of people have been successfully treated while also having medical treatment. Contact Adrian directly to discuss this further."
  
  What exactly does Mr Pengelly mean by “in general”? He says elsewhere that no potential patients are turned away, but are there medical conditions in which he won’t “work with people having conventional medical treatment?” The "Watchdog" film provided devastating evidence that Pengelly DOES tell cancer patients that if they were members of his family he would advise them not to undergo chemeotherapy. The meaning behind this phrase is obvious - if ditching mainstream cancer treatment is OK for Mr Pengelly's nearest and dearest it's OK enough for anyone.
  
  He also makes an interesting comment about the nature of his healing abilities:
  
  "Healing can be expressed in a similar way to an electromagnetic field spreading outwards from Adrian and enveloping anyone and anything within a certain distance. People or animals in the vicinity of a healing session often receive healing despite not being in physical contact with Adrian... Further evidence that healing acts rather like a magnetic field is seen when mechanical and electrical equipment is affected by Adrian. It is very common for clocks or watches in the vicinity of a healing session to stop working. This will include both mechanical and electrical time pieces. Doubtless, experiments could be performed to measure the extent and strength of the field. This may then give further clues as to the nature and origins of the healing ability."
  
  Would Mr Pengelly be willing to submit to properly conducted tests? His claim about stopped clocks and watches sounds sounds suspiciously like Uri Geller’s act, but it should be easy enough to prove or disprove.
  
  After seeing Mr Pengelly's misdiagnosis of Patrick the horse "Watchdog" viewers might be amused by this comment:
  
  "A number of top class high profile horses have also been successfully treated, but owners and trainers are often very reticent about anyone knowing they have sought out Adrian's work!"
  
  How very convenient - no point in asking Mr Pengelly for their names, then...
  
  Finally, for those of you intrigued by the reference to Pengelly calling himself "Sir" Adrian, here's the story behind it. He claims to have inherited the title from the second son of Sir Thomas Pengelly, a 17th century judge, the line of the eldest son having died out. Utter rubbish - according to the Dictionary of National Biography Sir Thomas died unmarried and childless. The name Pengelly does not occur in Burke's Peerage. The fact that Pengelly constructed this rather elaborate little fantasy indicates that, to put it mildly, he may not be trustworthy in other matters. He also claims to be a graduate of Birmingham University, yet the Alumni Department has no record of a student of that name.
  
  Earlier today a paragraph was added to Pengelly's website stating that he "will continue to work in hospitals and hospices". I simply cannot believe that any self-respecting hospital or hospice would allow him anywhere near their patients.
  

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• 21. At 11:04pm on 17 Sep 2009, Croydon Bob wrote:

  There are not two different kinds of medicine. There's only real treatment and fake treatment. If it is called "alternative" or "complimentary" then it isn't medicine, it isn't treatment, it won't cure you.
  
  I thought today's show was brilliant, best Watchdog I've ever seen. I hope that Watchdog do more features on other woo merchants (including "faith" healers).

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• 22. At 11:40pm on 17 Sep 2009, goodwillams wrote:

  I am surprised at the BBC producing such lightweight, shoddy reporting. Their investigation into Adrian Pengelly did not prove that he was a rogue trader. Looks like it is all about making a trashy program and nothing to do with true reporting. Such a shame - calls all other rogue trading reports into question. I won't be tuning in again. Very disappointing.

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• 23. At 11:45pm on 17 Sep 2009, AlbertTeddy wrote:

  Very disappointing report on this visionary healer, energy worker, psychic and remote healing charlatan.
  
  Childish and theatrical with repetitive weak comments.
  Is it a coincidence his website has disappeared?
  Even worse was the Macmillan chap saying the Alt Med has a place and should be "Regulated"(legitamized)
  
  A good question for his Supporters would be "How much cash have you paid him over the last 5 years?"probably in cash.
  Whilst you briefly mentioned his house much more could have been done on his travels and properties.
  A chap like this has the potential for a thorough demolition job why wasent it done?
  Channel Four Despatches or Roger Cook would have done it.

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• 24. At 11:53pm on 17 Sep 2009, keithm1 wrote:

  this person has more credability than the bbc and big pharma will ever have.
  
  

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• 25. At 00:13am on 18 Sep 2009, Martin7893 wrote:

  This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

• 26. At 00:31am on 18 Sep 2009, Martin7893 wrote:

  Yeh because everyone loves chemotherapy don't they. How much did you say Adrian charges? and did anyone hear about the boy Daniel Hauser in the US who went on the run from chemo? because I don't see Adrian sending bounty hunters for people who refuse his treatment, infact quite the opposite.
  
  Does anyone actually know what cancer is?! With respect may I give you the basics because its not as complicated as it is made out to be.
  
  The body constantly regenerates itself, cells re-cycle, this is why people eventually get old as the cells can't replicate themselves accurately forever. We all shed skin as our skin renews, we also have a new skeleton every several years. Cancer is a glitch in this cell replication process but it is preventable as well as reversible.
  
  This cell regeneration process in the body (as are all process in the body i.e. fibre being good for digestion) is dependant on what enters the body, few can deny the link between smoking and cancer. Smoking is particularly bad, but still it is what you put into your body in general that you should be aware of for the same reason.

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• 27. At 01:01am on 18 Sep 2009, Emerald87 wrote:

  The Watchdog item about Adrian Pengelly appears to have been lifted wholesale off some online forums, including ukskeptics, 123people and badpsychics (to name just a few). As a friend of Adrian, it seems to me that the content of these forums was submitted by people with a personal grudge against him, and similarly these people were no doubt responsible for alerting Watchdog about him.
  
  He is a very gentle and humble man, yet totally committed to helping people with his remarkable gift. And I was very glad to realise that, after initially feeling very sad that my friend had been tricked and ridiculed on national television, Adrian came through it all as the intelligent, sensitive and caring gentleman he is. Which is more than can be said for those leather-clad lummoxes!
  
  

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• 28. At 08:51am on 18 Sep 2009, Gezr08 wrote:

  I am perhaps staggered more by some of the comments here more so than 'Sir' Adrian Pengelly. Lets just be clear here;
  1. He was observed making a bogus diagnosis on the horse
  2. He missed the true diagnosis on the horse
  3. He was observed talking to 'spirit' in house that was about as haunted as a tea cup sitting right next to me
  4. He was observed making outlandish claims in curing cancer with no evidence
  5. (This is the worst one) He was suggesting to the assumed cancer patient that coming off chemotherapy would enhance his treatment.
  
  This man is a danger to the public and is probably breaking the law (ever heard of the cancer act woo mongers). Now I would be willing to accept he is deluded but to me he looked like he new exactly what he was doing. The supporters here need to step back and realise you are being fleeced.
  
  Finally in response to Rayner22 what are you talking about? You state 'the expertise, insight and understanding, of Healing in a psychic capacity' like you have some inner knowledge. All you have is a close minded belief and nothing else, e.g. no person EVER has be able to demonstrate psychic ability. It is an end of the pier Victorian con trick that any good mentalist magician can demonstrate. You read a couple of woo books then you have an inner knowledge eh? Try going to university for a few years to get yourself an MD, then do some healing.

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• 29. At 09:40am on 18 Sep 2009, tanavar2009 wrote:

  i think people like this bloke should be fined, My brother had cancer and my uncle dead from cancer so hearing this fairy tale story about him curing cancer and making people come off there proved to be sucessfull treatments from REAL doctors makes me angry.
  
  This man is just scamming peaple, everyone wouldn't put up with it if it was a scam about something else so why put up with it here???
  
  for all those who support him, why? why support someone that says one thing while being secertly recored then suddenly changes his mind about it when he is being interviewed!!!
  
  i think he should be tested to weather or not this helps!! and if it doesn't he can go to his next scam with he will when this ones finished like all scammers do!!!
  
  and to Rayner22 he did say he can cure cancer, on the tape and in the interview he said he can but he hasn't got any proof!! and talking about shallow minded i think people like you are the shallow minded ones, we do have beilef but they might be different to your but just saying those who dont understand this as shallow minded makes me laugh!!
  
  So Rayner22 if you believe your self to be the same as this bloke then you are mis leading in your comment!! this bloke mis lead this women whilst be secertly recorded!!!
  

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• 30. At 10:09am on 18 Sep 2009, richchocomoca wrote:

  Great job exposing this one Watchdog !
  An article in the Worcester Evening News yesterday claimed that Mr P had treated over 20,000 people, if he is that good, surely he would have needed a football stadium, not a village hall for all his fans to flock to ? instead he claimed in the article to have 35 followers there, hardly the cult leader he imagines himself to be is he ! Watchdog claim it was 21 people and as a great number of them were children one would assume they were accompanied by adults ? so not all clients then ? when Matt asked the big question, only one hand was raised slowley from the back of that little gathering. So I guess we can assume 65% does not equal 1 in 20,000 !
  I am not anti alternative therapy in fact I practice it myself under the guidlines laid down by my insurance company, so where exactly does Mr Pengelly get his insurance from ?, he does need it in order to practice legally. So when he makes such outrageous statements that are in direct breach of the 1939 cancer act I wonder if he has any at all ? or if he does, do the company know about his claims which would invalidate it anyway ?
  He also claims on his website that he will continue his work in hospitals and hospices, I do hope the management of all local NHS/PCT's are aware of this and that he has permission and not only insurance but higher CRB clearance. I work for his local NHS PCT and the management do seem a little disturbed by his statement !
  As for the horse, well of course vets know nothing about how they work do they ? they just waste 7 years in training going to parties and getting drunk no doubt !If Mr pengelly knew anything about how a horse worked, the first thing he would have asked is for the horse to be trotted up in front of him. Also the horse was resting on that R/fore with the leg slightly out which no doubt took pressure off the area in the foot where the real problem lay, so of course it had tension behind the knee, the kneee was locked.
  To make a diagnosis of any ailment in an animal is illegal under the RCVS act unless you are a qualified veterinary surgeon. It is also illegal to offer to treat an animal unless you are a vet, with the proviso that a layman can do so but only with a proper veterinary referal form. I do hope Mr P requested one of those when you took the horse to him ?

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• 31. At 10:09am on 18 Sep 2009, MIDIS001 wrote:

  I know Adrian Pengelly and have used and recommended his services to many of my friends. I dont profess to understand what he does or how he does it but he has treated my horses for several years. He treated one of my horses which could no longer race due to a 'mystery problem' which was never diagnosed even though we used top horse vets and he was referred to the Vetinary College in Liverpool who also failed to find out what was wrong with him. As a stallion his problem prevented him serving mares and often he would be in a lot of pain and we had no idea why. We thought it was something in his back and it was a last resort that I was directed towards Adrian. I had nothing left to loose - he only saw my horse 4 times but he transformed his life. After Adrians treatments he was more supple could roll, has spent many years serving mares and we even raced him again. He wasnt perfect, but he had a much happier life. A less expensvie treatment than any vet. Because of this I trusted him enough to see my mum who had terminal cancer even though he was unable to cure her ( I never thought he could) he gave her so much hope and comfort that it was worth every penny. Sometimes its not about the outcome no one is God and you would be a fool to think he was but what he can offer to these people is hope and who knows maybe the odd mirical can happen now and again?

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• 32. At 10:48am on 18 Sep 2009, johnbonds wrote:

  If may comment on this program my son was diagnosed with cancer with a 25% chance of survival I was told about Adrian we went to see him he examined my son and told him exactly where the cancer was and the size of it this was before the hospital had completed their full tests Adrian’s information was correct and with the help of Adrian and the NHS (at no time did Adrian say do not have other treatment) I am pleased to say my son survived.
  This show was very carefully edited to show negative results I just hope that people with the same problem my son had will not be guided by the this editing you have done and not go to see him. If we had been aware of a meeting then we would have gone to support Adrian but then if we had when the lady that Adrian had cured tried to tell you details it was edited out so I guess you did not wish to know that.
  

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• 33. At 11:23am on 18 Sep 2009, lrajah wrote:

  I thought that your coverage of Adrian Pengelly was most unfair.
  I have no idea whether his 'treatment' of people with cancer works or not (although you certainly did not prove that it does not) but what I do know, from experience, is that a positive attitude and a belief in being healed is incredibly important.
  One should never belittle the power of positive thinking and I think people like Adrian who are willing to help should be encouraged, and not hounded by the BBC just to fill some cheap airtime.

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• 34. At 12:05pm on 18 Sep 2009, healtruth wrote:

  As the General Manager of the largest and longest serving Healing Charity in the UK I am appalled by the content of your programme.
  I realise that the BBC need to keep the public informed of newsworthy items but surely you have a duty of care to provide full facts when such a controversial issue is addressed. Indeed it would have been prudent (before going on air) to have sought comments from ourselves on the issue of Healing and not merely broadcasted one Healer's viewpoint which is certainly not the view of the majority. Our healers provide healing on a weekly basis to in excess of 1,000 patients on a Nationwide basis and are strictly controlled by a Code of Conduct which controls their behaviour. Under no circumstances do our healers proclaim they offer a "cure" to any problem or disease that presents. What we do claim is to provide proven benefit to our patients in a variety of ways including effectively releasing a flow of energy and enables their natural resources to work thereby stimulating the body's own immune system to act in a positive way. We believe this complements conventional medicine but in no way replaces it..... Our healers have to undergo a 2 year training programme where they have to demonstrate their committment to Healing and provide case studies from patients who have received a positive response. Our Charity has been in existence for 55 years and will continue to provide healing to all those in need. We work daily in hospitals and hospices nationwide working alongside Doctors and Consultants to provide complete healthcare to patients.

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• 35. At 12:10pm on 18 Sep 2009, Thinker72 wrote:

  There are a lot of posts on here waiting for moderation so I can only comment on what is on here already.
  
  First, can we please look at the background that was touched upon on watchdog that appears to have been forgotten. More can be found out, as I have done, through basic google searches.
  
  Ok..we know this man has been able to afford a £680,000 house in the country as a result of what he does. He did an interview on the local radio station on the same day as the watchdog programme and implied he doesnt make a lot of money. It is alleged he charges £30 for a 20 minute session making him on £60 an hour. It was also touch upon but not delved into a great deal, in the programme, that he sometimes uses a "Sir" title. He has also claimed to have inherited this title in public interviews. This has all been disproven and therefore this is a lie. [Removed for legal reasons] He also has been exposed for lying about having a further education and a period of time of living in France and a few other things too. So why is this important in this story? This man is making unusual claims and requiring us to trust his integrity as he himself accepts they are unusual. Well we have a background of evidentual lies and now hes asking us to believe him. I would have liked watchdog to have asked his supporters how they feel knowing that the man has lied about several things. Were they aware? Does it change their support?
  
  Pengelly claimed "Vets dont know about horses" within the first section. Intersting to note that Vets apparently dont like him. Hardly suprising if statements like that are being relayed. Did anyone also note how he had to ask which leg was injured? Im not into equine life in a big way, but isnt the way to check lameness to see the horse walk? Adrian then went towards the correct injured leg after direction. Despite it being the wrong area he claimed the horse felt tense behind the leg. Not a vet here, but if I had an injured shoulder and someone started examining my arm on the same side would I get tense?
  
  The Haunted house episode was quite amusing. I admit it didnt really prove anything other than Adrian claimed afterwards it had the spirit of a man named John in it. He has of course randomly picked one of the most obvious/popular names out of the air which offers no proof whatsoever. It may have become more interesting if he had provided a surname, occupation, period of time etc. The usual stuff we have grown to expect from paranormal programmes. But no. Just john. He did again imply on the local radio station that all old houses have some kind of spirit. Do we need to run a poll of people who live in old properties who have never experienced anything "paranormal" to disprove this? Hope not as I think it would just give us an obvious result we can all predict without being psychic. Notice how Pengelly dealt with it all in a sensitive manner? "We can do this the nice way or the nasty way". Be interesting here to hear off other psychics about the approach of confrontation in that form being normal practice?
  
  But then we move on to the most important part of the programme. Pengellys claim to cure cancer and to use terms like "got rid of", "successful", "make better", "remove" etc which amount to the same. This is the point that I truly want to make. We know and have it proved that this man lies. We also know that he makes quite a bit of dosh from what he does. So we have a dishonest man making a significant amount of money from people with terminal illness. Happy with that equation? I hope even his most avid supporters wouldnt be. But watchdog is about consumer protection. So why did they go after Pengelly when you consider there are 1000's of healers in the UK. It is because he broke the law. The Cancer Act protects people. Within it it clearly states you are NOT allowed to say you can cure cancer. Was the programme against complimentary medicines or healing? No. In fact it mentions them and includes links to sites on this forum where you can find the promotion. Out of the 20,000 people Pengelly claims to have treated, he managed to muster 21 supporters. One out of that 21 put her hand up to say Pengelly cured her, but has gone on to admit that she has received medical treatment also so it is conceivable that the conventional medicine did the work and not Pengellys hands. Or even could we comprehend the body healed itself without Pengelly intervention. On the topic of supporters, the programme was aired only last night. So we can only assume Pengelly, his partner or whoever, attempted a support campaign in advance. Why did he feel the need for support when interviewed? Why was he not confident enough in his work to be interviewed without the angry mob outside boosting his ego? Why was there a need to create a support campaign in advance of the programme being shown which had to have come from someone in the Pengelly camp?
  
  So just to recap here are the facts. a) This man has proven to lie about his background, having a knighthood, an education etc. He has been proven to be a liar. b) He failed the 3 tests that appeared on watchdog. Perhaps they could have been more scientific in their basis and results, but failure would have been apparent anyway. c) Pengellys support must have been organised by Pengelly or someone associated with him prior in attempt to create damage limitation. And finally d)He earns a healthy £60 an hour which has allowed him to purchase a £680,000 house. and e) It has been proven he has broken the law under the Cancer Act that exists. Those are the facts.
  
  Anyone still want to support a law breaking liar who makes money from those with cancer despite failing tests?

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• 36. At 1:12pm on 18 Sep 2009, shawalfie wrote:

  This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

• 37. At 1:21pm on 18 Sep 2009, shawalfie wrote:

  Yet another example of Watchdogs unbalanced journalism. This week it's alternative medicine that thay have decided to jump on.
  
  It would be very interesting to have seen the whole consultations rather than the bits that Watchdog wanted us to see. I was struggling to see how this guy was a rogue trader?
  
  This series is dreadful.

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• 38. At 1:59pm on 18 Sep 2009, danmurr wrote:

  I think that it is watchdog that are conning us. It is obvious to any normal person that this guy can't cure people with his hands (that is a fact supported by science) they didn't have to make a programme to highlight this. But the facts are that if it gives people optimism and hope to carry on then I think it is a good thing. What next? are they going to expose the church? taking donations and raising funds for a god that doesn't exist? again this is peoples faith and you shouldn't rubbish it. Can you imagine all those people at their wits ends who have visited this guy and gone away with hope and strength to carry fighting.
  
  I hope I get a refund on my TV licence for the time taken up by songs of praise, most haunted etc etc , oh and investigate herbalists, shut all the churches and stop the witch doctors from operating !!
  Really, did I need to watch that last night just to be told it's a scam? leave people to their beliefs and look for some proper consumer issues like DVLA ripping people off and traffic wardens robbing us.
  
  That guy looked like such a mug when all those people were there to support this guy. Maybe he should walk into a temple and shout "THIS GUY IS RIPPING YOU OFF" lol
  
  
  Watchdog has gone down hill !
  

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• 39. At 2:52pm on 18 Sep 2009, Thinker72 wrote:

  As an addition Pengelly also appeared just prior to the airing of watchdog on BBC Hereford and Worcester radio show. This is currently available to listen to on their listen again function. He does come accross incredibly modest particularly when he is questioned about income. He claimed he didnt earn a lot, so it was interesting to learn he paid £680,000 for a house that looks like a mansion and earns £30 for 20 minutes work and on his own admission sees around 120 patients a week and business is blooming. That gives him £3600 income per week and salary £187,200 per year. Yeah you dont earn a lot do you? ;-) I wonder though if he is as successful as he claims. More importantly does the tax man know about this revenue? He does say he will heal for free if need be. So I would suggest anyone seeing him doesnt pay any longer.
  

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• 40. At 2:55pm on 18 Sep 2009, Thinker72 wrote:

  And dont think this is about alternative medicine debates. Watchdog if you watch even had someone from Macmillan promoting them. Im glad watchdog placed that at the end and included the links to things like Cancer Research UK who also discuss the benefits of them. What this is about is a proven liar about his title, background and education, failing tests (yes they could have been more controlled) but he would have obviously failed them anyway and breaking the law...The Cancer Act which he was aware he was and has been doing.

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• 41. At 3:22pm on 18 Sep 2009, politecyan wrote:

  I am disgusted at the way the BBC has treated this modest, gentle, kind and selfless man whose whole aim in life is to help seriously ill people and animals. He is fully aware of the limitations and caveats connected with his healing abilities, and is honest and open. He is certainly not a con artist on the make, as he gives healing treatment to large numbers of people for free. I think that the BBC should be ashamed. In order to make cheap sensationalist biassed television with a "storyline" that will pull in the punters, they are prepared to bend the truth so hard it breaks down utterly.

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• 42. At 3:35pm on 18 Sep 2009, jjdelaunay wrote:

  I agree with the majority of other bloggers who found this programme a very poor piece of journalism which amounted to little more than a gratuitous attack on an individual who clearly believes in his work (as do numerous other healers and faith healers). The journalists seemed unable to produce any actual dissatisfied customers - on the contrary, there was ample evidence that there were a significant number very satisfied customers, so much so that they came out in force to support Mr Pengelly. The set up in the so called haunted house was farcical and proved nothing and throughout the presenters clearly harboured a general disdain for this type of medicine. I personally do not know Mr Pengelly, and in fact I would call myself a deep skeptic, however, I am happy to report that my late mother sought his help after she was completely written off as only having weeks to live by the orthodox medical profession. Her surgeon had sewn her back up after finding what he described as completely inoperable bowel cancer. She lived for another five years with regular visits to Mr Pengelly and she never regretted a single penny she paid him. In my opinion, Watchdog should make a public apology to Mr Pengelly for their shoddy piece of journalism.

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• 43. At 4:21pm on 18 Sep 2009, counsellorx wrote:

  Any open minded person will have seen another pathetic attempt by the mainstream media to discredit anything that threatens big pharma - I wonder why they do that, I wonder why people in the BBC would want to do that? The standard of journalism on the BBC is so lowly.
  
  If the BBC wanted to 'protect us' from rogue traders why doesn't it investigate what poisons are in the [product removed], or what [company removed] has up its sleeve for us? Or the activities of [company removed].Or is the BBC, like the government, in the pockets of big business too?

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• 44. At 4:25pm on 18 Sep 2009, Thothist wrote:

  re. Chemotherapy-v-Alternative Treatment in Cancer Cases - A simple comparison :
  
  The Alternative view sees the Immune System as the body's greatest ally, capable of ridding the body of cancer on its own when cleansed and fed & watered correctly = loved & respected. It is seen as the body's Armed Forces. It will attack & destroy all aggressors and defend one's health to the death. But first of all, it itself must be made strong & healthy, fit for purpose !
  
  The Orthodox approach sees the Immune System as an unfortunate victim in the quest to destroy the cancerous cells. It is invariably damaged, sometimes taking long months to recover. Plus, as we all know, the damage to the health doesn't by any means stop there !
  
  So....if the Immune System is our Armed Forces and the Cancer our Enemy, the Orthodox School seeks to destroy the enemy while at the same time inadvertently managing to seriously hamper its own Armed Forces. The Alternative school seeks to equip our Armed Forces with all it needs before asking it to engage the Enemy.
  
  Which approach do you consider the best ?!
  
  Thothist
  
  

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• 45. At 4:26pm on 18 Sep 2009, ronniewr wrote:

  Rogue Traders seemed to be using the secret filming piece as their main piece of damning evidence, however when I watched it the second time round it really just seemed as though Adrian Pengelly was giving an honest account of his experience of treating cancer. He says that in his experience he has more success treating people who aren't having chemotherapy, he goes on to emphasise that he would never say to anybody don't have chemotherapy. He then goes onto say...if a member of his own family was told the chemotherapy won't cure you, it will only give you a bit more time, then this is the only time he would advise a member of his own family not to have chemotherapy & let him try to stop it. Because there is a chance that he could stop it and in that situation a chance is better than no chance. He also says in the interview with Matt Allwright that.. if anyone was thinking of stopping their chemotherapy he would always advise them to discuss it with their Doctor and their family first.
  So unless you want Adrian Pengelly to lie this seems to me to be an honest account of his experience of treating cancer.
  Everyone has a choice, some people choose mainstream treatments some people choose a mixture of conventional & alternative treatments and in some cases people would literally die before having conventional treatment because of all the associated side effects.
  So in summary Adrian Pengelly speaking honestly from his own past experience says that chemotherapy makes his healing less successful, he would never tell anyone not to have Chemotherapy, unless it was a family member who had been given a short time to live with no chance of remission and if anyone was thinking of not having chemotherapy he would always advise they must speak to Doctor & their Family about it first.
  Helen Walker appeared on the programme as the secret filmer, I think you were very brave to appear on the T.V after your battle with cancer - God Bless you. Professor Michael Collins was the specialist that appeared on the programme, I am completely humbled by your choice of vocation and your selfless pursuit of helping people to cure cancer. However I would take issue with your summary of the secret filming, (it well maybe that you have didn't have the benefit of playing it through a second time before commenting as I have). You said " I think he was directly advising you against having Chemotherapy unless it was guaranteed to cure you" I apologise because I have had the benefit of watching the tape a second time, but the only time he would directly advise a member of his own family against having Chemotherapy was "If they say the chemotherapy wont stop it, all we can do is give you a bit more time."
  
  In Matt Allwright's interview with Adrian Pengelly, Matt Allwright said; MA:"You actually dissuade people from having chemotherapy in certain circumstances and have your treatment instead, which is hugely irresponsible"
  Looking back at the tape of the secret filming this is incorrect, AP never dissuaded people (patients) from having chemotherapy and there is only one circumstance that AP would dissuade a family member from having chemotherapy and that is when they have been told that their cancer is incurable and they only have a short time to live.
  AP( then asks):Who did I say this to? MA(replies):You said this to the lady we sent to you and we heard you say to her, if it was my family member then I would tell them not to take the chemo"
  Again looking back at the tape this is incorrect and very misleading and is not at all what AP said.
  This seems very unfair to Adrian Pengelly, he is been asked to comment on secret filming that he has not been allowed to see, MA is really putting him on the spot accusing him of saying all sorts of things that he didn't actually say and calling him hugely irresponsible, for saying things that he didn't actually say. Surely this is not a fair or balanced way of investigating? I have a GREAT amount of respect for the BBC I think the quality of their programmes and balanced investigative journalism is second to none in the world, but this really doesn't seem like the sort of quality journalism I know & love them for.
  Well that's just my observations on a part of the programme, there were lots more inconsistencies and bias in other parts of the programme. My overall impression was, that they really had a go at him, more like a character assassination than balanced investigative journalism. My sincere heartfelt wishes go out to ALL of you who are battling cancer, may God be with you.
  
  

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• 46. At 4:56pm on 18 Sep 2009, coolrichie_skaggs wrote:

  This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

• 47. At 6:03pm on 18 Sep 2009, tallieho wrote:

  I think it is quite funny how many people are commenting on this story who state that they had never heard of him before, me thinks thou dost protest to much!. Watchdog were not attacking holistic therapy or alternative medicine, they were simply exposing the lies some people tell such as: "I have a 60-65% success rate in treating cancer". and the fact that he is making statements which are clearly meant to disuade people from undergoing chemotherapy. It is true that alternative therapies can help with the symptoms of many chronic diseases but the claims he made gave false hope and were completely unjustified. Well done Watchdog, if anything you have taught people that they should not make claims they cannot back up with evidence other than word of mouth. P.S. Many alternative and holistic therapies have undergone clinical trials and are celebrated by the medical community.

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• 48. At 6:14pm on 18 Sep 2009, Lazarus12 wrote:

  This episode of Rogue Traders was based on the most pathetic logical reasoning. It was inconsistent even within its own highly edited version of Mr Pengelly’s activities. The ‘guinea pig’ woman spy was from the outset employed by the programme to support their exposé, without which there would be no programme. Her opinions are thus of no consequence because of the inherent bias of her position. More convincing would have been if they had found a patient who had gone to Mr Pengelly of his or her own volition, and who felt that he had treated them inappropriately.
  Moreover, the undercover footage revealed Mr Pengelly saying that he would NOT advise patients to halt their course of chemotherapy, the very opposite of which was the crux of RT’s attack. However, as the footage showed, he did say that in certain advanced cases, when chemotherapy was simply being given as a way of ‘buying time’, he believed that he was the better option. He is entitled to this belief, and as he said, this is a personal opinion, and one that he would give, not to patients, but to members of his family or friends.
  There is huge controversy over the merits of late-stage chemotherapy, which are gruelling for a highly-treated patient who will typically have undergone prior rounds of cytotoxic treatments. I have spoken to several doctors who say that, if they were ill, they would not use chemo in this way. Repeated exposure to such drugs can cause other cancers such as leukaemia to occur. We are in a healthcare culture in which the use of such drugs means huge returns for the pharmaceuticals, and this needs to be kept in mind.
  Alternative therapies whose holistic AIM, on their own terms, is to cure cancer, are, for complicated reasons, not always provable or justifiable in traditional western ways. Whether they can legally say so or not, their goal is to restore the body to health. People with serious illness are not necessarily ‘vulnerable’, gullible victims, but their severe situation does force them to explore other avenues, especially once western science’s only remaining strategy is to poison, poison, poison, and hope for the best.
  No one is forced to go to Mr Pengelly, and Rogue Traders could produce no one who is dissatisfied with him! The way in which they edited the woman defending his ‘miracle’ claims was as laughable as something from The Simpsons. I was revolted by the trashiness of this programme, clearly made by tabloid hacks who should investigate the dubiousness of their own claims. They go in my rogues’ gallery.
  

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• 49. At 6:46pm on 18 Sep 2009, dancingSuzyQ wrote:

  Dismayed and disappointed to think the BBC would sink themselves to this level to try to discredit this gentlemen when they could be out exposing the real villains. I support alternative healing and believe that this report was biased and completely taken out of context to make good telly. If people want to believe in what a healer can offer them. Well let them, it's not for the BBC to try and belittle the beliefs of others. If you think Matt Allright is an "Alright" kind of guy. Think again. I was present when he and his team came to interview Adrian and Matt Allright treated Adrians supporters like imbeciles and tried to make them feel stupid. His aggrogance and ego was very much in evidence. It's all about Matt i'm afraid. I think they are really stuggling for material, and you've probably done him a favour. There is no such thing as bad publicity - Adrian will probably be busier than ever!

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• 50. At 8:54pm on 18 Sep 2009, happyashby wrote:

  I am appalled that licence payers money has been spent in this way.
  
  This man was basically set up and portrayed in a negative light for absolutely no good reason.
  
  It showed him making one comment on a lame horse and then concluded from this that he was totally unable to diagnose any problem in either animals or humans. It was totally ridiculous. Surely a horse with a significant ankle injury is also likely to display symptoms elsewhere in the leg?
  
  He was then duped into thinking he was in a haunted house, and seemed surprised, as most people would be, when the towels started flying out of the cupboard. How much money was wasted on this scam, which then showed nothing other than him trying to help the lady?
  
  In the big finale he was shown committing the terrible act of telling someone how he had helped people with cancer in the past and giving HIS own views on chemotherapy and healing.
  
  The people who turned up to support this man on the programme were treated with a total lack of respect and again portrayed in a negative light. The presenter had bags of compassion for the 'hired' cancer sufferer, but the poor lady who was given a 10 second interview in the car-park was questioned very differently. This was journalism at it's very worst.
  
  The pathetic sarcasm and attempts by the presenter to belittle Mr Pengelly, made the presenter of this programme look nothing more than a small minded bully. How come he had so little time for the concept of healing, yet raised the topic of alternative therapies at the end of the programme as if it was ok for people to try them. People with cancer and other problems are still able to make decisions, weigh up options and chose a treatment that suits them. Why have the makers of this programme decided healing should not be one of those options?
  
  I would have found a programme discussing the merits and pitfalls of healing, giving a balanced view of both sides and actually hearing what Mr Pengelly had to say, far more valuable and interesting than the pointless jibes and undercover filming we were subjected to. The show was totally uninformative and demonstrated absolutely nothing.
  
  This man deserves an apology.

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• 51. At 9:56pm on 18 Sep 2009, preciousDaisy000 wrote:

  I think Watchdog's Rogue Traders have made a serious mistake here and are obviously desperate.
  
  Firstly Adrian never said these words "I Can Cure Cancer ".Where has the man actually said that?All he has said is that there is a high success rate for people who have cancer.
  
  Let's move on, the horse.Who says that Rogue Traders didn't secretly swap horses or that the horse did actually have a bad knee?
  
  The haunted house set up. Again this proves nothing. Who can say that there was NO spirits in the house before Rogue Traders went in?No one can prove that???
  
  I think Watchdog has improved Adrian's career, not damage it. His cool, calm response to it all was fantastic and he made the crew look very stupid!
  
  
  
  
  

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• 52. At 10:40pm on 18 Sep 2009, MrsFairyDust wrote:

  This is in reply to MIDIS001 who made this statement:
  we used top horse vets and he was referred to the Vetinary College in Liverpool who also failed to find out what was wrong with him.
  
  Erm..... I think you should swat up!! You wouldn't have been referred to the Veterinary college IN Liverpool. You would have been referred to the RVC Equine Hospital in Hertfordshire (Animal Health Trust). :0)
  
  I can't believe all these people are still defending Adrian Pengelly.... When He has clearly broken the law on NATIONAL TV by actually claiming he can cure cancer!!

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• 53. At 10:40pm on 18 Sep 2009, feelalliswell wrote:

  So this is what the BBC has sunk to. The programme makers should really think about the quality and integrity of their work. The hatchet job on Adrian Pengelly that was aired last night is a disgrace to all that the BBC should stand for. I would advise anyone who is interested in Adrians work to have a look at his website. Healing as I understand it is something that we all have an ability to do. Some people are particuarly skilled at facilitating the innate ability we have to heal ourselves. Adrian is one of these people and I know that he will be greatly supported and continue to help people to do this. I like many others would like to see the BBC apologise to Adrian and to all the other legitimate alternative/complimentary practitioners whose skills and abilities they dismissed in such a cheap and sweeping way.

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• 54. At 10:41pm on 18 Sep 2009, briancjudd wrote:

  I do think that everyone is missing the crux here. He never actually said he could cure cancer. He said he could 'treat' cancer. I could treat cancer too, with a sponge (notice I said could, not can). I (would) believe that when I rub(bed) the sponge on your chin, I am (possibly) treating cancer. I know it won't cure it, but I designed my special sponge rub to 'treat' cancer.
  
  It doesn't matter how much we moan, he said the right things and Watchdog have tried to make a programme out of it because it can all be taken as meaning something different (the text message effect I like to call it) - which is almost as bad (seeing as I'm sure the BBC can afford a pretty good legal team to have worked this out) - its all obscuring the truth to influence us to make themselves stand out over the competition(but hey - we just aren't that stupid)

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• 55. At 11:10pm on 18 Sep 2009, secrethappygirl wrote:

  I found this programme to be one of the most byast pieces of reporting I have ever seen. Are we to believe that the seconds of footage,clearly edited, showing this man treating a patient and being interviewed was a un-byast account of what was said by all parties. I really don't think so! How can someone be labelled a rogue trader when he clearly had many happy clients!
  Everyone is free to choose their own treatment and management of illness. There are no guarantees when it comes to curing cancer or any other critical illness.
  Television these days seems to be all about entertainment, not offering a balanced view, and this programme is no exception.
  
  

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• 56. At 11:22pm on 18 Sep 2009, rainbowLizzy123 wrote:

  I would like to say to all of the people defending this individual
  1. He did NOT diagnose the correct ailment
  2. The horse was INCURABLE
  3. He was NOT in a haunted house and there were NO spirits
  4. He DID NOT pick up that the lady was free of cancer
  
  Ok - shall we get Mr or "Sir" Pengelly to demonstrate his skills on 10 people/animals in a professional monitered experiment?
  Let's write to him (he has taken his website of the web as all innocent people do) and see if he will take this opportunity to prove his amazing skills.

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• 57. At 11:34pm on 18 Sep 2009, AmandaJadeWh wrote:

  Up and down the country there are many different people who claim to be able to cure different illnesses, but a lot of the time this turns out to be untrue.
  
  In October 2003 my dad was diagnosed with cancer of the oesophagus at the age of thirty-seven and Adrian Pengelly helped him through this time. Adrian made my dad feel a lot better each time he went to go and see him. He would go in looking weak, tired and unhappy but would then come out looking happy, brighter and more alert. I never managed to go with my dad when he went to see Adrian as I was at school, but I could see the difference in the afternoon when I got home compared to in the morning. My dad always said that he could feel the heat from Adrian’s hands on his shoulders and back for at least two hours after he had been. Also my dad used to travel a 100 mile round trip with his dad and my mum always use to say “I don’t know how you did it.”
  It was a tough time for the whole family and with hospital trips every day it became a hard routine to follow. Being able to see my dad happier when he came out of Adrian’s clinic seemed to make everything a lot easier. So with Watchdog creating the film to try and suggest Adrian Pengelly as a con man is an utter disgrace and personally I believe that you should write or air an apology to everyone involved in what has happened.
  
  By the way I’m only 16.

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• 58. At 11:56pm on 18 Sep 2009, sir_adrian wrote:

  This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.

• 59. At 11:01am on 19 Sep 2009, mooban wrote:

  The Watchdog programme on Adrian was an absolute travesty and those who seem to side with ths awful programme are not in possession of the facts. One poster above has said that it seems that the content of the programme was lifted from some websites. That person was very close to the truth. [Comments removed for legal reasons]. As a journalist I can say that this programme was badly researched and badly presented. It wasn't out to discover 'the truth', rather it was out to get a result whether that result was fair or not. Adrian is a gentle and honest person. With his abilities he could be earning huge amounts of cash from celebrities and those with money who fear their illnesses and the consequences. But he doesn't do that; he charges 30 uk pounds a time and has been know to lower that - or not charge - for those of lesser means. That is not scamming. Rogue Traders/Watchdog should be about exposing those unscrupulous people who go round ripping people off - choosing Adrian as a target is way off beam and in my opinion has done the programme irreparable damage and has exposed a fundemental dishonesty from the producers themselves. They should be ashamed of themselves and so should the whole of the BBC. This issue is not about whether healing works - it's about prejudices and whether or not these kind of matters should be given such shoddy tabloid treatment.

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• 60. At 11:34am on 19 Sep 2009, eadfrithkells wrote:

  Having just returned from the States I watched this programme on IPlayer and was struck by how closely it resembled the cartoonish and hysterical "news" shows they broadcast on channels like Fox. This Rogue Traders would fit in perfectly, it being a completely journalism-free zone.
  
  The real rogue traders here are the characters you have presenting the show itself. They spend license fee money and pretend to be journalists when in reality they would not recognise journalism if it stood up in their soup.
  
  Stop churning out this trash and bring us properly researched, impartial reporting on important topics such as this, not cheap Fox-esque fluff.

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• 61. At 12:01pm on 19 Sep 2009, Judycol wrote:

  I have been treated by Adrian for a large tumour in my liver. My last scan in March 09 showed that he mass in my liver (which was about 3" x 3" and still sizeable after chemo which ended in November 07) had gone. Not once has Adrian made me any promises, nor asked me to stop orthodox treatment. He is a genuine healer - an amazing man with an amazing gift. Watchdog proved nothing and was a total shambles and a farce of a program. Adrian spends his life helping so many people and he has done nothing to deserve this kind of treatment.

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• 62. At 2:03pm on 19 Sep 2009, ABlock73 wrote:

  I have personally known Adrian for close to 15 years and have never had any suspicion that he was anything but genuine. He is dedicated to helping animals and humans alike, and has given up most of his life and free time to help others. The only reason his clinics have grown to the size they have is word of mouth of people who were happy with his work and told others who, in turn, were also so happy with his work they told others. Why would this be an issue for WatchDog to expose? I agree with the comment that this is just the same as someone having faith in God and praying for a miracle that then comes true. Would you work to expose the Church that "sold" this "false faith"? This is a ridiculous article and has put the BBC in a very negative light for me. I am very dissapointed.

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• 63. At 4:39pm on 19 Sep 2009, ronniewr wrote:

  The segment on Rogue Traders about the horse diagnosis, seemed to me misinformed, poorly researched and extremely biased towards proving the programmes point of view. But most of all it missed a golden opportunity to actually test Adrian Pengelly's healing abilities.
  Matt Allwright tells us Patrick the horse was lame and an MRI scan revealed he had soft tissue damage, which is incurable.
  *It may have made for a more balanced programme, if the MA had said “which conventional medicine has said is incurable”*
  Michael Gibson a leading equine vet is then questioned on where the damage is with Patrick's leg.
  The vet goes onto say that the damage is inside the foot which has been established by the MRI scan.
  The horse is taken to see Adrian Pengelly and Matt Allwright says “Remember Patrick's problem is in his hoof, AP claims that he is far more accurate in his diagnosis than a vet is. Will he be able to make the correct diagnosis and find the problem hoof?.”
  AP examines the horse and says “I reckon the problem is with the back of the horses knee”
  MA says “There's nothing wrong with Patrick's knee” he then goes on to accuse AP of getting it wrong.
  Matt Allwright is investigating an alternative therapist, so would it be reasonable to expect that he should have a basic understanding of how an alternative therapist's approach and diagnosis differ from that of conventional practitioners, such as the featured vet Michael Gibson?
  My own VERY basic understanding of how some alternative therapist's approach and diagnose health problems is this. For example in the case of an acupuncturist (and I think it's similar for healers) they work on channels of energy (also known as Chi) that run through the body. When these channels of energy get blocked, then this creates imbalance (or dis-ease) and can cause problems in the body which can manifest as a symptom. The blocked energy may be in one part of the body and the symptom may show itself in another part of the body. In the acupuncturist's case they use needles to stimulate the flow of energy along the blocked pathways, removing the blockage, restoring balance and hopefully curing the symptom.
  Adrian Pengelly's diagnosis was not wrong or incorrect as Matt Allwright has accused, it was different to that of the conventional vet's diagnosis, which Matt Allwright would of expected had he done a very small amount of research and acquired a basic knowledge of the different ways that conventional and alternative practitioners approach and diagnose health problems.
  It is quite possible that the blocked energy in the horses knee may have been the cause of the symptom, that was in this case manifesting as soft tissue damage in the hoof.
  Matt Allwright also missed a golden opportunity here to test AP healing ability and take the horse back for a number of healing sessions and monitor the results.
  Using a vet (a conventional practitioner) to asses the diagnosis of an alternative therapist is obviously going to produce a negative appraisal from the vet. As the have two completely different approaches to how they diagnose and treat dis-ease.
  Matt Allwright then goes on to say “What we have here is a healer who doesn't know his horses hoof from his elbow”. An amazingly critical and unfair statement from MA considering the misinformed, poorly researched and extremely biased nature of the piece that he has just aired.
  The Ghost house piece seems to accomplish little except to prove that AP doesn't always charge for his time and services.
  Matt Allwright does say “We need to find out if there is any chance Adrian Pengelly knows things that science doesn't.”
  As mentioned before it's a shame MA didn't take the opportunity to take Patrick the horse back for a series of healing treatments, which would have been a worthy piece of investigative journalism and may of gone some way to answering his question?
  When a lady who had been cured from cancer appeared on camera to give her experiences of Adrian Pengelly's healing, Matt Allwright appeared to deal with the interview in a closed minded dismissive way. She said; “The last scan I had in March 2008 the consultant looked at me totally baffled and she was flabbergasted and she said the tumour in your Liver, the mass has gone. MA says; But you were on Chemo and then Herceptin as well. She says; I had scans after the chemotherapy which showed that the tumour had shrunk marginally. MA says; My worry is that Adrian can take success stories like yours and make them his own.”
  Aren't the qualities of a good investigative journalist to be, on the one hand sceptical and on the other hand to keep an open enquiring mind, which will result in a fair and balanced report of the subject in question. Matt Allwright appeared to once again to only display his closed sceptical side in this interview. He seemed to underline that she was on Chemo and Herceptin, to undermine her story, and when she came back and pointed out that, the scans after the chemo had only shown a minimal reduction in the tumour, MA further tries to undermine her story by airing his doubts about Adrian Pengelly's healing abilities.
  Why didn't he pursue the fact that the consultant had been totally baffled and flabbergasted that the tumour had completely disappeared. He could of asked a number of questions here for example..
  Q1 could have been; So what the consultant was seeing on the scan wasn't what she would of expected to see, given that after the chemotherapy the tumour had only shown minimal shrinkage? Q2 could have been; Do you think that the almost miraculous disappearance of the tumour was in any way a result of Adrian Pengelly's healing? Q3 could have been; Would it be possible for me interview your consultant and ask her why she had been totally baffled and flabbergasted that the tumour had completely disappeared?
  It would appear that Matt Allwright has only got time to speak to one consultant about Adrian Pengelly's healing ability, however he can find plenty of time to create a fairground style Haunted House. Maybe the one consultant he did find time to interview more suited his purpose than interviewing a consultant that may have gone against the heavy one sided bias of his programme?
  Another point touched upon in the programme was that one of the people that appeared had successfully battled against four different types of cancer in the last twenty years. One aspect of Alternative therapies that makes them very worthy of further scientific investigation, is the Alternative therapists different approach to curing health problems.
  A VERY SIMPLIFIED analogy that I have heard is this;
  If you have a bad boil on the skin that needs treatment, conventional medicine would approach this on the level of what they can see (the symptom) they would treat the boil, maybe with cream or lasers or cut it off completely. On the other hand alternative therapies would look at the cause of the boil, which might be bad blood, some imbalance in the body etc. By treating the cause of the boil the alternative therapist is getting to the root cause of the problem and if you can cure the cause of the problem, then it follows that the boil won't reappear somewhere else.
  So rather than spending our (licence fee payers) money on programmes like this wouldn't it be better to spend the money on some scientific research into alternative therapists like Adrian Pengelly. We donate and spend millions of pounds every year on Cancer research, isn't it worth spending a small proportion of that on PROPERLY investigating alternative therapists. I've noticed on some of his literature that AP openly welcomes any considered scientific research into his healing ability.
  Surely that's got to be a more productive way of bringing us closer to the complete eradication of cancer, which is what we're all working towards.
  After watching the Watchdog programme, the impression I was left with was they seemed to almost have a vendetta against this man (they devoted a lot of airtime to it during the programme over 30 minutes) it really seemed over the top. As though they were directing the whole force of the mighty British Broadcasting Corporation against one small individual. All those resources that Watchdog have at their disposal, a large team of people, all the money they are allowed for each episode, an hour slot on prime time TV showing to millions of viewers and all of that aggressively focused on one small individual. I was at a bit of a loss to understand why? The only explanation I can think of is this. Matt Allwright mentioned that they had been absolutely inundated with emails supporting Adrian Pengelly, presumably a lot a grateful patients expressing their support and personal experiences of Adrian's healing abilities. Did Watchdog decide not to listen to lots of their licence fee payers and instead, in the face of growing objection to their programme, try to make their programme so absolutely damning of their subject that it would silence all of their critics. If this is what they have done, is there a case to be answered for, ie; the BBC using unreasonable force against Adrian Pengelly in what was a very biased, one sided, mean spirited programme?
  

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• 64. At 5:08pm on 19 Sep 2009, veganvanessa wrote:

  Croydon Bob, very well said. There is medicine, and thats it. ANy COMPLIMENTARY medicine's arent REAL treatments or cures that will make you better. They COMPLIMENT whatever treatments you are already recieving.
  If this truly is a gift, then you would SHARE it with others without charging £30 for a session. £30 that these sick, hardworking people may need if they become unable to work through illnesses they have gone to get cured that may not be incurable.
  If he has nothing to worry about, then why on earth delete the website?! PROBABLY because it has claims (Which go against the cancer act) that he can HEAL cancer. SURELY if he was this marvelous, it would be a huge thing all over the papers and news?
  I saw someone siad their horse had an illness that Adrian cured, because it wasnt diagnosed by the VET. HELLO?! Maybe because it wasnt suffering from said illness in the first place?!
  lrajah, yes a positive attitude is VERY important, but is also FREE and shouldnt be charged for.
  Healtruth, yes YOUR healers may not claim a cure for cancer. The programme was not about ALL healers, just about this ONE. Who DOES happen to claim he can. If anythign you should be in support of this programme, as HE is giving ALL other "complimentary medicines" and healers who may just promote a good inner being, a bad name.
  Some people may be all for things such as relaxation methods etc but someone who is claiming to have a gift of healing something that even scientists, after YEARS of hard work, are unable to cure, is different.
  
  When the adverts for Cancerreasearch.co.uk and PDSA start asking for £30 for 15 minutes to help people via the hands of an unqualified man, ill stand corrected.

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• 65. At 5:09pm on 19 Sep 2009, veganvanessa wrote:

  The show was put together very well, and I was very impressed with the way they handled the situation. Good job BBC!

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• 66. At 11:34pm on 19 Sep 2009, lynlar wrote:

  I really do not think that watchdog proved alot about Adrian Pengelly, why did they not take the horse "Patrick" back for treatment? surely that would be the only way to prove anything!
  I, on the other hand, have taken horses to Adrian Pengelly for treatment, when the vet could not find the problem, with great results, after all how is his treatment going to have a "placebo" effect on an animal?? For example, I had a Racehorse with a problem in her shoulder, the vets had tried, but couldnt seem to find the problem, i went to Adrian as a last resort, i was running out of options. This horse was in pain and i couldnt ride her she felt so crippled with pain, but after a few sessions with Adrian, i was back riding her. Another thing is, when i had taken her for a healing session, i would put her back in the stable and she would lie down (not usual behaviour for this horse) and would not eat her food for a day (again not usual behaviour) I cant explain it, but he did something for this horse, she went on to win 3 races after!
  My husband (who is a sceptic) has had healing from Mr pengelly, for a shoulder injury, and a broken femur, made remarkable recoveries both times!
  my mother currently goes to Mr Pengelly as she has had breast cancer, she was diagnosed about a year and a half ago, she went to see him before she had her lumpectomy, before she had her chemotherapy, before she had her radiotherapy and before she had her Herceptin, i know for a fact that he has never told her to not have any of the above treatments, in fact, he told her to take everything they (the NHS) threw at her, she told me that after coming back from a session.
  All I know is, she is still here, she is strong and it makes her feel better, he may not have cured her, but until someone can prove he is not doing any good, why should people think what he does is the work of a charleton?
  I can't see how you can class him as a Rogue Trader, especially when Watchdog didnt have a group of angry clients complaining about Mr Pengellys services!!

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• 67. At 09:57am on 20 Sep 2009, legoterry wrote:

  I was in the crowd of Adrian Pengelly supporters when Mark Allwight interviewed him. Mark clearly told us more than once that he had video evidence of Adrian claiming that he could 'cure' cancer. This surprised us all, as none of us had ever heard Adrian make such claims.
  
  Now that I've seen the programme, it is clear that Mark lied.
  
  At no time during the video did Adrian use the word 'cure'. He stated that he treated cancer with a 65% success rate. Indeed the NHS 'treat' cancer. I wonder how they would gauge 'success' when treating cancer – probably by extending someone's lifespan or improving their quality of life. Whilst there's no scientific evidence, there are hundreds of people who would confirm that Adrian has achieved this for them.
  
  Of course, the two other 'tests' were both irrelevant. There was no evidence that the horse was not suffering in the knee joint, Adrian may have detected pain rather than an injury which would not have been identified by an MRI scan. And the psychic fiasco was laughable. This had nothing to do with Adrian's ability to heal people and just showed the weakness of the BBC's case.
  
  Indeed more of the programme time was spent on showing Mark and his friend with the pointless dreamcatcher riding round the countryside on a motorbike (presumably at licence-payers' expense) than it did on presenting Adrian's amazing achievements.
  
  So, Mark's methods of investigation were weak and his conclusions from the evidence were wrong but my real concern is what was the motivation behind this investigation in the first place? I commend the exposure of someone taking money from young people for a non-existent talents show; or challenging a global conglomerate for selling faulty goods; but why try to discredit a man with an amazing ability and a genuine desire simply to help people ?
  
  We all make mistakes. Hopefully, in next week's show Mark will have the humility to acknowledge that his interpretation of his 'evidence' was misleading and that whilst Adrian Pengelly does not claim to 'cure' cancer he has nonetheless helped a very large number of people to live longer and better lives.
  
  Finally, Mark Allwight – self appointed defender of a just cause, impartial investigator and reporter – this week you, yourself have been exposed as a Rogue Trader.
  

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• 68. At 9:52pm on 20 Sep 2009, splendidpip wrote:

  Adrian successfully treated a horse of mine. When he started treatment by holding his hands close to her but not touching her, she had a very marked and strange reaction. She put her head in an unusual angle and rolled her eyes so I could see the white of her eye.
  
  She had several treatments and Adrian cured her problems. She had been seen by a vet, a physio and other recommended practitioners, but it was only Adrian who got to the root of the problem and cured it.
  
  This mare was quite sleepy and quiet when treated. Another horse, a young gelding was very tense with muscle stiffness. Adrian also treated him successfully.
  
  

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• 69. At 07:42am on 21 Sep 2009, ronniewr wrote:

  Watchdog's "SHOCK AND AWE CAMPAIGN" against Adrian Pengelly,
  seeks to silence all of their critics.

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