Property management fees
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If you're one of the 1.6 million people who currently own leasehold property, then chances are you're also paying a management company to make sure it stays in good condition.
In March, Watchdog looked into the story of Carrie Murray, a leaseholder who was paying her management company every year to maintain the block of flats she lives in. But the company wasn't keeping its side of the bargain. Anita Rani investigated and discovered the block was riddled with mould, which the management company refused to sort out.
Carrie pays her management company an annual fee so this sort of thing shouldn't happen and if it does it should be sorted. She wanted to know exactly what she was getting for her money and she isn't the only one?
Hundreds of you, right across the UK, have now told us you're stuck paying a management company for services you're just not getting and it seems there's nothing you can do about it.
Rubbish service?
Nancy Doyle and her neighbour Vanessa Hawkins live on an estate in Chatham. Even though the residents on their estate pay their management company over £77,000 a year, it's Nancy and Vanessa who are donning the rubber gloves to clear out their communal bins. The bins on the estate are supposed to be cleaned every fortnight - but on inspection Nancy found rubbish in their bins that appeared to have been thrown out in November 2008. Not exactly a fortnight ago, is it? Nancy has complained to her management company again and again about the bins but nothing gets done.
Another frustrated leaseholder is Tim Wood. His last two management companies were happy to take his money but in return they have left his building in a right old state. Tim moved to the south coast to retire hoping for a quieter life but has told us there has been a lot of worry, a lot of stress and uncertainty as he has watched the building deteriorate. He told us he feels very let down and pretty much abandoned.
Tim, along with others residents in the block paid nearly £1,000 each to have the building painted in 2004 and they're still waiting for it to be done. He now has a new management company and hopes things will improve.
Watchdog decided to bring together just some of the people who have contacted us about their management companies. Most say they are getting nowhere with their complaints and they are at the end of their tether
One man, Bob told us: "Because the company doesn't do what it says it's going to do then you might as well open the window and throw the money out."
Edwina agreed adding: "We've all got to pay this money and none of us are getting a good service?"
It was quite clear from what everyone was saying that when taking on your management company, the odds are against you. So shouldn't there be a way to give more power to the people who deserve it most - the residents who pay the fees.
What the experts had to say
At the moment it's just too easy for management companies to get away with doing very little. The industry is self-regulating and complicated by property laws that date back to 1066. No wonder our expert on residents' rights, Bob Smytherman from the Federation of Private Residents' Associations (FPRA), told us the system has got to change.
He told us that there needs to be a clear regulatory code and a clear legal frame work, with minimum standards. This would mean if you move into a leasehold property you know what you can expect from the person responsible for the building in which you live.
Kat Callo is an expert in leasehold property and told us there are ways for residents to rid themselves of their management company. However, she also mentioned that it does take a little bit of work, with residents having to get organised. The process she told us about is called 'Right to Manage' (RTM) and requires at least half of all flats in the building participate. The idea is that once you've finished the process you create your own 'right to manage' company and can get rid of the current managing agents and can instruct a different one
Also joining us was property lawyer Steve Nicholson. He told us that it's unfortunate that although the law gives residents a remedy in certain respects, it's not always an effective remedy - particularly when looking at the cost of issuing court proceedings.
If you were paying any other company for a service they weren't delivering, you would show them the door - sharpish. Should it really be any different with a management company? It's your home and your money, so it should be your right to make sure they do what you pay them for.
Expert advice
For more information on the various ways you can challenge your management company and general information about the industry, watch tips from the property experts.
And a video with Andrew McKeer from with the Association of Residential Managing Agents can be found at the top of this page and on the ARMA website.
Get free advice from The Leasehold Advisory Service on the law affecting residential leasehold and commonhold property in England and Wales.
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~09~RS~)
Comments
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Having seen the filthy refuse cupboard, I do have to ask who made the mess in the first place. The occupiers do have some responsibility not to create such a mess in the first place.
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We used to own a flat in worthing. On selling the flat our solicitor noted that we had been overcharged by the property management company for 11 years for communal charges that we should not have been paying. It took us over 2 years to get the money back from the management company. I would urge all owners of properties to double check their bills in thorough detail and check these with their deeds!!!!
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As a Chartered Surveyor I am disappointed that your programme chose to consult with ARMA. All the worst agents subscribe to ARMA. It is meaningless and agents only join to satisfy public opionion. MOre regulation is pointless . What is required however is the bar raising in terms of standards. Chartered Surveyors are invariably a better option and can easily be held accountable for negligence. There are a plethora of organisations which all purport to offer an accountable service . They do not. Look for Chartered organsiations. They have stringent standards.
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I started renting around 9 months ago from a letting agent. My partner and I were contacted directly my the landlord informing us that the letting agent wasn't paying the rent to the landlord. Now we are dealing directly with the landlord but we don't have a contract because the letting agent will not release our deposit! These companies are terrible. Any repairs have been sorted by the landlord because the letting agent does nothing.
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If you do not like your managing agent you can apply to court to exercise a RTM- right to manage. This cannot be contested by the management company.
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Hi,
I have been paying [company details removed] £90.00 for over 7 years. They have not carried out any maintenance to the 42 flat development. We the residents are at our wits end and our development is falling into a very poor state of repair.
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I have a property management company[company removed] who have done no repairs in the 6 years I have lived in my flat,this despite several emails & phone calls.
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It is an outrage that we pay these companies and recieve nothing in return! We are managed by a company called [company removed] and in 5 years I have never seen them on site once!! I have contacted the company requesting details of what work had been carried out and they responded rudely stating they do not need to justify the work to me! Something needs to be done about these companies
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Our management company are trying to charge us £90 for taking 2 payments of £15 per year for ground rent.
According to our lease we are responsible for all maintenance, repairs etc and for keeping the property in good order including boudaries, fences, windows and the whole exterior.
We have been paying this for nearly 20 years and have never been expected to pay extra. It's not the money, it's the principle!
When I phoned them the woman got shirty and told me it was non-negotiable. I wasn't negotiating I wanted justification of the charges.
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I live near Maidstone, Kent. The terms of my agreement are that i only have one parking space and therefore one car, and no parking on the narrow streets. Yet i dare not leave my parking spot for fear of not getting my car back into it. There are cars all over the street making parking difficult. I sometimes wonder how the fire brigade would get to my flat if it were on burning down. I pay £120 pounds and all i get is no service or anyone with enough clout to take responsibility.
I guess the management company will take control of the situation once Berkeley have sold the rest of the homes!
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Apart from the LVT (LEASEHOLD VALUATION TRIBUNAL)
WHY NOT JUST INSTRUCT YOUR OWN CONTRACTOR AND DEDUCT THE INVOICE FROM YOUR SERVICE CHARGE
BETTER YET JUST STOP PAYING AND FORM YOUR OWN MANAGEMENT COMPANY
PAY THE GROUND RENT VERY IMPORTANT
IGNORE ANY THREAT TO "FORFEIT THE LEASE" CANNOT DO WITHOUT REFERENCE TO LVT
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I have just seen your programme and you are right it’s appalling.
I have some experience of this and the only way to solve the problem ones and for all is a RTM company.
I was approached by some of the owners of properties were I act as letting agent to do just this.
Plus a management company to look after them
We have set up RTM companies one site is operational now (we already have two other sites under management)
And 4 more are in the process of taking over sites.
It’s not simple there are legal costs involved. And it is time consuming. You may find that many of the managing agents are appointed by the freeholder or they are one of the freeholders companies and they will fight tooth and nail. But the 2002 Leasehold reform act is on your side.
An RTM has shareholders and directors appointed by the share holders they can simply dismiss the managing agent if they do not perform.
If I can offer any help or advice to anyone please let me know
David
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I have a management company that are charging the owners an extra levy for 'redecoration' despite the fact that it is a cost that appears to be covered in the monthly management fee. We have a healthy reserve that could cover at least half the costs and still leave half of the reserve left and leave residents with a more reasonable 'bill'. After complaining they state that the reserve is simply to make a contribution to, and not to meet the full costs.
They also add a management fee of 10% +VAT to the proposed charge!!
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my service charges are £130 per month, when i bought the property i was told they would be around £300 per year, i feel like a cash cow, [the comapany] expect me to pay them in lump sums twice a year,£1,300 pounds twice a year, and to date i have not even seen any one on site.There are over 100 flats on my development.
If you can not pay they offer finance at 28.3 apr.
I would never have bought my duplex flat if i knew the managment fees would be this high!!!
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On a flipside to this topic you do find some cases when because of leaseholders not paying the service charge the management company is unable to do the required work due to lack of funds.
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I am an owner of a flat in a block of nine flats. Our management company was useless and charged us a huge amount of money for doing nothing. The flats got dirtier and dirtier, the garden overgrown, there were rats in the cavity walls and on one occasion in someone's kitchen, rubbish built up and the paint on the window frames peeled off. After lots of complaining the company finally painted the windows. They used a cheap company who painted over rotten wet wood and within a month the paint had peeled off again.
I did some research into Right to Manage and phoned a company in Guildford (Leasehold Advice Centre) who helped us go through the process.
It was painless, not that difficult, cost each flat approx £300 and just required everyone to communicate.
We were a small block and everyone participated, but the result was amazing. We now have a local couple to clean and do the garden. We solved the rat problem. We decided to pay for double-glazing, and the flats look a thousand times better.
I would encourage anyone to go through this as the results are well worth the cost and the four or five meetings we had to arrange in order to get signatures etc.
It is now OUR block of flats!
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We are being charged £90 for banking a £30 ground rent. The property company don't have to do anything to our property as our deeds place responsibility on us the mortgage holders.
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Our managing agent has even managed to let us live in an illegal building by failing to meet basic fire safety standards and still we can't get rid of them. Is there a consumer website which names and shames or in some cases rates the good ones so we can at least stop other people having to deal with the really bad ones. I wouldn't wish our managing agent on anyone - not even my ex husband!!!
Many residents are worried about going through the RTM process only to end up with worse.
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I am an owner of a flat and regulalry meet with our manager from the management company. When you look at charges only a small amount is for management. We pay a number of charges such as insurance, electricity(communal) in fairness she will do most things for us but yes the costs will go up as these items are general repairs which has to have a budget. We really need to educate the residents, its because of them the charges increase. not all management companies are the same we are happy with ours.
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I am a landlord with several flats. I've had problems with several freeholders who fail to manage the blocks of flats properly via their managing agents, who are often the same people under a different name. At the same time they take large annual fees & send threatening letters if one doesn't pay up. They don't provide accounts either. These rogue freeholders buy up freeholds to deliberately rip off the leaseholders.
One company that does this I know of, who for legal reasons I can't name here, owns thousands of freeholds.
On one block in particular that I own a flat in, the leases were not defective & had a long unexpired term (Over 900 years). Therefore there was no need to compulsorily purchase the freehold from the rogue freeholder.
Instead what I organised was 'Right to Manage' (RTM).
This is legislation that came into force about 5 years ago to deal with rogue freeholders.
I managed to get 6 out of the 9 flat owners in the block to agree on taking the RTM route. You need 50% or more. We appointed a solicitor who served a RTM notice on the freeholder. In fact I heard about the right to manage law through some editorial they'd written about the new RTM law in the local paper.
We formed a RTM limited company which we all own one share in. This makes the process democratic with annual meetings etc.
We have now appointed a decent managing agent. So no more problems.
So it's not quite correct to say as they did on teh programme there needs to be more legislation. If there is more legilation to regulate managing agents or freeholders that manage blocks, then that regulation still has to be applied & may well involve court action etc.
I beleive the best route is RTM. It puts the leaseholders in the driving seat so to speak. If the managing agent we have appointed doesn't deliver good managment of the block then we appoint another agent. That makes them eager to please because they don't wish to lose our business.
I was surprised at the person on the programme saying 'they are all too busy' to go for RTM. What could be more important that one's home. The solicitor does most of the work anyway.
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Some good views from dick15g and quiteVictorV.
The possible difficulty with dick15g's views is firstly theh terms of your lease may not allow you to off-set the costs from your arrears of or future service charges. Secondly the costs of the works which have not been done may be beyond the finanical resourse on one tenant.
The possible difficulty with quiteVictorV's views is that the fact that some tenants don't/can't pay doesn't excuse the landlord from providing the services it has agreed with each indicidual tenant to do.
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Property Management Companies - I just wanted to encourage those have I just seen on the programme who felt they did not have the time to sort out their management company. Residents on our estate have had problems for many years including having to deal with rude and arrogant agent representatives. It has taken over a year to change and the accounts are now more or less reconciled. My message to you all is that if you select good replacement agents they will help you sort out the 'mess' following change over. The commitment required now we have sorted out the problems is that the resident management company (resident reps act as directors) meet every quarter for two hours or so and; all of the residents are invited to attend an annual general meeting. There are superb agents out there who want your custom and deal with residents in a professional manner at all times. The end result is that I now sleep soundly and know that the estate is being properly managed and that my money is being spent as is intended and that the agent is working FOR us and in our interests. YOU WIL NOT REGRET IT.
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I work for a managing agent and i can honestly say not all agents treat their properties like this!
I would advise that if you are not already within a management company which you have Directors who own flats within the developement, you form a Residents Association. This will allow you to have a group of residents to act on behalf of all the residents.
Best thing to do is to get rid of your own company and find one who is better!
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Good to see that Watchdog is covering this. Thank you.
Our short story: A few years ago our local council in Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire, transferred its stock to a management company. The process was put to the vote, but only renting tenants, NOT leaseholders, were allowed a vote. There are around 7,000 properties of which about 650 are leaseholds. The new management company of course peppered the tenants with glossy leaflets about all the free improvements that would come their way if they voted for the transfer to take place. Needless to say the transfer was voted in.
Prior to this transfer the council charged a nominal ground rent and buildings insurance to leaseholders. Some months after the transfer the management company issued estimate service charges for hundreds of pounds, much to the surprise of leaseholders. We now understand that the council had poor records of its properties which it passed onto the management company who then issued the estimated bills without any kind of survey of properties. Many leaseholders found that they were being asked to pay for services they could not possibly receive, issues arose over possible double-charging with Council Tax and some leaseholders in the same block had differing charges. A regular leaseholders meeting suddenly saw around a 1000% increase in attendance after this. Though this shouldn't detract from other busy or vulnerable leaseholders who might pay the bills no questions asked.
Since then some leaseholders have formed a group to represent all the leaseholders and we are attempting to present a legal challenge to the management company. Suffice it to say, we are now being faced with the second annual bill and not much has changed and many leaseholders have no proof of services or have to retrospectively ask the company to produce proof, of which is often vague. Progress is difficult, but finally the management company has admitted that a property stock survey should take place. However we still feel we are a long way from fairness and transparency from this organisation that has charity status but acts like a greedy corporation. If you would like to learn more about our plight, please search for Leaseholders (LRG) Aylesbury in your favourite search engine or go to http://www.lrg-aylesbury.org.uk/
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Thank you Watchdog for finally highlighting this problem. I have been battling my management company for a long time to no avail. Thanks to your item I have just written to all of the residents in my block and have decided to sort it out once and for all. I have experienced aggressive and rude behaviour from the person that runs the company and trying to contact them to resolve issues is virtually impossible. Trying to deal with these people has been a very lonely and frustrating place. I hope that this is the start of something being done to bring in legislation to deal with these appalling companies.
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I work for an independent Managing Agent. Most of the problem Agents are members of ARMA and they want to tar us all with the same brush! They want regulation but do not regulate their own members. The situation with Leasehold management and the problems are complex. Regulation alone will not solve them. Some of the difficulties stem from complex leasehold law and the range of different leases as there is no standard form. The Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act did not resolve this.
We have formed RTMs on behalf of Leaseholders but it is a time consuming task.
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one of the problems with the leasehold sector is that generally it is difficult to find independent, reliable advice about what to do especially because the law in this area is complex and not always accessible to the average leaseholder. one source which leaseholders have told me they find useful is news on the block magazine which offers help and advice to leaseholders.
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Thank you for highlighting this issue, Management Companies should definately be regulated, I am in a co-ownership apartment and the Housing Association have no control over their charges either, the
monthly fee is apparently estimated, therefore residents have to pay a lump sum at the end of the financial year because they NEVER underestimate. We are not given any details of what these additional charges relate to, is it any wonder we feel we are being robbed. There are several blocks of apartments and although we have individual water meters these are not read & each apartment is charged the same regardless of water consumption, getting rid of them is not an option some are owned but most are rented and residents don't stay long enough to form any kind of commitee. Our only hope is regulation otherwise we have no choice but to continue to pay for services we just don't get. It is a favourite excuse that because not everyone pays the charges they don't have the money to provide the services this is utter rubbish but they continue to get away with it.
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Some Managing Agents are better than others. Some leaseholders are better than others. Its not all a one-sided story.
Further legislation is not required; the RTM route is well set out and we have gone this way with three sites where we have leasehold property. I am surprised that someone could justify charging as much as £300 per property for organising this. We researched the process using the excellent taxpayer funded Leaseholder Advisory Service www.lease-advice.org and served all the notices ourselves. The only cost being about £25 to set up the RTM Company for which the government supply standard Memorandum and Articles.
All owners have the right to become members (not shareholders) of the RTM company and can either manage the properties themselves or appoint (or dismiss) a managing agent.
We had problems with a well known management company now wound up, but after much perserverance and threats to them that we would raise a formal complaint with ARMA they did relent and refund thousands of pounds of leaseholders' money.
It is well worth noting that a RTM company has the right under the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act to insure the buildings (rather than the Freeholder) and as such there are often thousands of pounds to be saved each year in insurance premiums.
Now the bad news:-
Section 152 and 156 of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002.
The government are seeking to introduce (later this year I believe) Section 152 of the above Act. This will introduce a requirement that all service charge accounts be subjected to an Accountant's Report. (unless the aggregate Service Charges are less than £5,000 per year). The Government estimate that these reports will only cost in the "region of" £1,500 each. For a typical development of 30 flats this would involve an additional cost to leaseholders of £50 each. The Government have consulted with some of the Accountancy Bodies and the Association of Residential Managing Agents (ARMA). Unsurprisingly these were in favour of the proposal.
The people most affected by these proposals will be the leaseholders. They have no representative body unless they happen to be buy-to-let investors. I note that the government only require audit reports for companies with turnovers of over £5.6M but will be placing this onerous burden on leaseholders if their Service Charge payments total in excess of £5,000.
So unless the government relent leaseholders can look forward to another hefty increase in Service Charges.
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I,as a property manager, who has a good relationship with many residents on sites i manage would suggest that if at all possible resident on developments that are fully built and all properties sold (not part completed new builds) look into becoming directors of their Management Companies. Once in residential control you can choose which agent you wish to use, look for information on websites about the many agents and make sure they are covered by ARMA registration as ARMA at the least can help you with legal issues if you do have problems. Usually only two residents need be directors to make these choices and then they can be actively involved, along side their choosen agents and with regular meetings, on choosing contractors, seeing the accounts and how money is spent for complete clarity in what is happening at all times. With the right Agent it does not have to be an uphill struggle... Shame we all seem to be getting tarred with the same brush.
Not an advert for who I work for - hence remaining anonymous...
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I like many others have the same problem and setup a website dedicated to identifying whether the issues I experienced were isolated or nationwide.
Much to my surprise I was overwhelmed by the response from other residents who found my site and said exactly the same thing.
Like 'BLOGWORT' said above - I'm disappointed that an ARMA representative was intereviewed, however I feel the reason for this was for Watchdog to experience at first hand how ARMA neglect the problems we encounter and that it's pretty pointless them even established. As it appears they'll work in the interests of the Management Companies and but not the residents.
ARMA's response was only what other residents have encountered when we phone them and ask for help. They ignore our request for help and blame everyone else.
I would like to think that this is just the start of Watchdog investigating this matter and hope that maybe next time, you can name and shame some of the companies.
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Agree to comments above.
Our flat in Catford has an appauling management company [company details removed]. They are charging us extortinate amounts of money since 2006 for services that have never been seen?
I pay 750 per 6 months for cleaning etc yet the communal areas of our flat is a state, I never receive my post, the backdoor has a broken lock, the front door has smashed glass its terrible! 750 is an increased amount. We usually pay 600. When I called the management company and queried why the increase, they replied 50 gbp increase a year is quite good and I could expect it to increase year on year. Is this true? If so, by 2012 I would be paying 850 per 6 months for nothing!
I have complained on a number of occasions but get nowhere! I tried to rally round to get a RTM company going but there is soo much running around to do it is very difficult.
I have recently been charged £13,000 for roofing repairs on my flat. I paid this in mid 2007 after a number of chasers and threats to throw my family out of our flat... and where is the work once paid? Nothing has been done!
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I own a 6yr old house and have to pay management fees 1/2 yearly for the upkeep of a motorway fence. However as far as we are aware no maintenance has been done in the last 2 years to look after it. If it had been looked after, they would have noticed something from another home owner. Is it a good idea to challenge them to find aout where exactley my money goes, especially in this economic state where we have to watch our money.
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I am astounded that the BBC managed to air a piece without giving any of the facts on the background of the cases shown and I give examples.
There are VARIOUS ways flats are managed, firstly by the Freeholder, secondly there may be a Residents Association or Management Company that the LEASEHOLDERS are members or shareholders of and lastly, the RTM Companies under the new legislation.
Now, regardless of whom collects and demands service charges, there is CLEAR LEGISLATION in place in various areas, they are The Property Act 1925, The Landlord & Tenant Act, the Housing Act and the Commonhold & Leasehold Reforms of 2002. In addition to these acts relating to LEASEHOLD properties, they also have to contend with The Health & Safety at Work Act, Regulatory Reforms, etc, etc, and personally I would not want to be a Managing Agent for love nor money and I give the reasons why.
I used to work for a Managing Agent that worked his nuts off trying to maintain developments in our portfolios and the BIGGEST CAUSE of the problems were;
Leaseholders NOT knowing that the Management Responsibilities are contained in the lease and if it is NOT covered, it is NOT the Management Companies Liability to do the work.
Leaseholders expecting the lowest possible service charge for GOLD SERVICE management.
Leaseholders not paying service charges on time in accordance with their lease, meaning that often works are delayed or cannot be carried out.
Leaseholders and Residents that treat the communal parts of their development like a tip and expecting someone else to clear up after them.
The mish mash of Leasehold Legislation that simply makes money for Solicitors and the Legal Profession caused by Government 'tinkering' with the law and cocking it up again.
LEASEHOLD Law is unique, it needs CLEAR & PRECISE LEGISLATION relating only to LEASEHOLDS instead of being covered by several pieces of legislation that are meaningless in the main to Leaseholds.
As for ARMA, don't even go there, don't bother with any Agent that is ARMA Registered or part of a larger Multi-National Group as they have not got a clue about your development. ARMA is a shield and a CON in my Opinion, I am fully aware of a company that was reported to ARMA for breach of their conditions of membership more times than this Government has introduced new taxes...
Look for a local MANAGING AGENT - they are NOT ESTATE AGENTS OR LETTING AGENTS.. the one I worked for worked closely with local developments, solicitors, surveyors etc and provided in my estimation an excellent local service to leaseholders and knew every client personally... and it's that personal touch that counts!
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a positive story
we had many problems with our man agents on a site of 1000 units
we eventually set up a resident association and managed to sack the managing agent.
and also get a substantial amount of money back.
this was hard work but if people have got the energy and desire it can be done
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I have been asking my servicing company for a breakdown of exactly where our money goes for 5 years. I have a budget but nothing to say what they are ACTUALLY spending the money on. They constantly state they can only deal with 'communal areas' yet when I raise a complaint or repair issue, they ignore me. E-mails, telephone calls etc are ignored. We have been waiting for 2 years for a security light to be fixed.. I queried an amount I thought was excessive and got fined! There is no where to complain to and there is no come back if the comany just keep increasing service charges. I will NEVER live in a leasehold property again. If you sack the company, then what? I am a mortgaged tenant in a block of rental tenants - it is in my interest to keep the upkeep of the flats up, no one else seems bothered. The poor service received by my management company is one of the reasons I am looking to move. As soon as possible.
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Andrew-R - Firstly let me say to have a biased opinion of what you have witnessed in the video you must be either be a member/employee of the largest Property management company in the UK or just naive to the true operation of how management companies operate. Secondly seeing some of trivial entries you have posted makes me wonder your life is maybe so trivial your only interests are to blog and create unnecessary blurb amongst other useful information for others to have to trawl through!
How about you do us the favour of not participating!
For others I will now continue! You may have already seen these details before, but for those who need enlightenment of who is behind XXX or XXX likely to be your property management co.
Considering the moderators are not allowing company names to be mentioned then I will however refer you to another independent body who features some very interesting background on the largest property management co. in the UK.
I say no more just read the link http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/may/25/housingmarket.corporatefraud
THOROUGHLY!
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I work for a managing agent who is a member of ARMA and contrary to what blogwort says, ARMA is not meaningless. Also, from my experience it is the better agents that join ARMA (i.e. those that want to do a good job), not the worst. Chartered Surveyors are also good choices as managing agents and indeed many of them are also ARMA members!
As somebody in the industry, blogwort's comments are not particularly helpful and he or she must realise that there are good agents out there that are not Chartered Surevyors - and invariably they are ARMA members.
I would also like to point out to blogwort that ARMA members are also accountable and part of the criteria for membership is having adequate Professional Indemnity Insurance.
Regulation is the way forward and ARMA are lobbying for this. Education is also important in the sector and ARMA, in tandem with the IRPM provide an excellent platform for people working in property management to learn and become qualified.
My advice to anyone not satisfied with their managing agent is to approach their Landlord or Resident Management Company first to see whether a change can be made. If so, the first place to start looking is the ARMA website for members - the link is above.
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I purchased my flat just over a year ago, little did I know the complications that came with a management company! They never visited the property, were intent on getting as much money out of us for nothing in return. Luckily we got more than 50% agreement to go down the route of Right to Manage (RTM), after forming a Residents Association, it has taken almost a year with a lot of hard work and solicitor's fees. We have been managing ourselves for 3 months and as yet the previous company, [company details removed], have not passed on any papers or handed over any money. Two leaseholders paid for external works which were never carried out and the monies not returned. We are unable to carry out the external works ourselves until this money is handed over. We would rather not take the route of tribunal but when our letters and that of our solicitor's are ignored we are left with little choice. Next time i'll buy freehold !!
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As a Property Manager myself I was horrified by the article. Clearly one sided and without any investigation on Watchdogs part into the regulations in place and basic leasehold knowledge.
Quite clearly we have all been tarred by the same brush, and the industry as a whole has been shown in a very bad light - perhaps watchdog should take the view of "Rogue Traders" and target individual companies behaving badly. There are numerous associations throughout the country that work very hard to make the industry reliable and safe for leaseholders.
Unfortunately, Dick15g's has been misinformed as his comments regarding forfeiture and works are incorrect. I strongly suggest he take advice.
The Leasehold Advisory Service www.lease-advice.org are an unbiased agency that aid all parties and will be able to give advice to those that request it.
In this industry when a leaseholder contacts their managing agent they are usually reporting a problem with the bulding or talking about personal finances, they already have a negative expectation. I don't often receive calls or letters from grateful leaseholders telling me how pleased they are that the gardens are looking well or they're pleased the lift hasn't broken down. . . .
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I too live on the development shown on the programme. In many of the bin stores the management company did not put bin containers so rubbish has to be put on the floor. As it was not in containers the council would not collect. Therefore years worth of rubbish became compacted and bin bags piled almost to the ceiling. I wrote over 20 emails to the management company and it took this programme to get them cleared. This company have also charged for services they were not responsible for providing for 5 years- maintenance of the gardens, drains, and playground - all of which were provided by the developer. The management included these charges in the budget at the start of every service charge year and if they werent responsible for these areas they were meant to recredit residents under the terms of the lease at the end of the year. This has never happened, instead they have just charged each subsequent year.
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Sadly, a missed opportunity by watchdog as the questions were lightweight, particularly when more serious issues including arrears collection, service charge budgets, major works consultation or risk assessment could of been touched on.
RTM is not the only solution as FMC (Freehold Management Companies) can also be highly effective working in conjunction with managing agents and setting service delivery performance objectives to agent fees.
The program should of highlighted that RTM requires expert knowledge to comply with ever complex legislation.
Leasehold Property Consultant
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I live on a development that has been built for some 7 years and most of the properties are freehold. We have to pay a charge for ground maintenance. The managing agent places one contract for this and the management fee comes to over £100 each per annum. The agent is always trying to put other charges on to the accounts. One of these is street lighting at over £500. I attended meetings with them and they agreed that this charge should be removed. Nevertheless they have not done so. They do not respond to correspondence. The "property manager" is extremely inefficient and seems to think that she can do anything without reference to anyone else. The directors of the company adopt a could not care less attitude.
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I live in a block of 8 flats and 8 shops. The residents and shop owners had been paying a service charge to an absolutely useless and disgraceful management company who have done nothing for the past 10 years. We now have a new management company in place but we have been trying to trace how much money should be in the sinking fund to pay for all the maintenance that now needs doing (including a new roof!) but the previous management company are not forthcoming with this information. The landlord has also been less than helpful about the situation.
As an owner of a leasehold flat I understand that I have to pay a service charge, but it makes me so angry when nothing is done in return and now we are having to play catch up for 10 years of neglect and the previous management company can get away with it. Absolutely appalling!
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In response to blogwort (items 3 and 5 on blog to 20 April 2009) ARMA was established in 1991 as a direct result of a failure by the professional bodies in existence at the time to address the needs and issues of the residential block property manager. As a Chartered Surveyor I have seen little support from anyone other than ARMA to raise the standards of management skills and it is to ARMA that we have to look to improve standards, educate and inform managers, lessees, and freeholders. In establishing the Institute of Residential Property Management (IRPM) as founder sponsor, ARMA clearly has taken the initiative to raise standards and provide a dedicated qualification relevant to the sector.
As the interviewee on the programme and a Chartered Surveyor “blogwort” I can confirm that 54 corporate members of ARMA members are Chartered Surveyors, many more corporate members have Chartered Surveyors within their company. No doubt they, like I, take professional offence at his presumptions about ARMA membership.
Constant lobbying of government on regulations and legislation has placed ARMA in the vanguard of the industry that has more than enough issues to deal with without unfounded and arrogant statements from "blogwort"
May we also correct the statement about RTM. Application does not have to be made to the Court. An RTM company does not have to be "approved" by the court unless there is a legal challenge as to its validity and then this would go to LVT. Furthermore serving an RTM Notice has nothing to do with the managing agents it is served on the freeholder or the RMC who have responsibility to manage to manage, it is they who have the right to contest
Perhaps this ignorance of procedure demonstrates why ARMA was set up and why it continues to provide education in the ever complex world of property management.
A host of information was made available to Watchdog before the interview to help inform and to date this has not been made available through their website.
[Note from Watchdog: The Lease Advice website - http://www.lease-advice.org.uk - has now been available on the web site.]
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Finding this interesting as have been having trouble with our managing agent for over 15 years. They are members of the RICS but are irresponsible bullies. i have noticed that company names have been removed from the comments - it would be interesting to see if the same names came up. they should be named and shamed. Very easy to say that owners should get together but invariably the work falls to one person or time is a problem if you are fully employed - not able to devote time at work and the last thing i want to do when i've finished is to spend time on a headache! They have visited the property once in 15 years and never check work that is done. when they invoice us and we inform them that it has not been carried out satisfactorily they say that it has been paid and we have to pay them. some of us have resigned to non-payment for things that aren't done properly - we keep them fully informed and explain why we have not paid but they just send letters threatening debt collectors! They are useless.
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I agree with watchdog that leaseholders should get a better deal with managing agents, I have been a leaseholder for thirteen years, in my experience there is no monitoring of the actual service provide (if any) all I get is excuses, then threatened with forfeiture if I do not pay the service charges. I wish I could say it is great to be a leaseholder but I regret the day that I became one, please, please, someone do something to change the law.
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I too saw this week's Watchdog programme and was was appalled! Not only with the contributors' experience of bad managing agents, but with the wishy-washy response from Andrew McKeer of ARMA. As a resident of a small block of flats, and also an employee for a residential managing agent, I wish to put the record straight as Watchdog certainly didn't present a balanced programme.
I live in a small block of 8 flats which we manage quite happily ourselves and I have never experienced any adverse problems which couldn't be resolved with a quick word with the relevant neighbour. I realise I am probably more fortunate than most leasehold owners which brings me on to my second point.
I have worked for a residential managing agent for over 9 years and in that time, have come across pretty much anything and everything to do with living in a leasehold flat. While I would agree that a LOT of managing agents cause as many problems as they solve, not all do and my company is totally and absolutely committed to giving an excellent and professional service to the residents at all our developments (currently we manage c.3500 leasehold properties). We offer complete transparency and professionalism and our key word is 'communication'. We've found that most problems can be resolved, or at least diffused, by communicating to the residents and explaining what we're doing.
Finally, listening to Andrew McKeer, the ARMA spokesman, was like listening to nails being driven into residential managing agents' coffins. At no time did he give a positive and coherent answer to Nicky Campbell's questions about what ARMA could do about their members who offer appalling service to their clients; all he could say was that ARMA could expel them from the organisation but they could still keep practising even after explusion. However, my company has requested this from ARMA on more than one occasion, when we've come across bad managing agents, and they've never, ever done anything about it so yes, they are a 'toothless' organisation.
So come on Watchdog, give the good guys a chance to put their views across and reassure all those flat owners out there that not all managing agents give bad service and that some of us are trying very hard to counteract the 'bad press' that residential management seems to attract.
I live in hope, Sajene
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Hi !
Thank you 'BBC Watchdog' for bringing this problem many of us share to light. I myself bought a house on an old RAF Housing Estate of some 148 houses which were sold off to the public as freehold properties back in the mid 1990's. I moved into mine 6 years ago once all the paperwork was in place. This made me a home owner with a single non-voting 'B' Share.
In amongst this paperwork was a document that I had to sign to become a non-voting 'B' Shareholder which gave no rights to attend any 'A' Shareholders meetings including the AGM run by the 2 'A' Share holders one of these being the Landowner/Developer who took ownership from the MOD & the other being our current management company directors. This management company I had to pay a fee every 6 months. These management fees were for the purpose of maintaining the estate, roadways, lighting, drainage & sewage, etc. For this fee, the management company was responsible for maintaining the common areas owned by the Landowner who happens to be the 'A' Shareholder who lays down the terms and conditions that our management company is suppossed to follow.
As we are a private estate owning our own houses that are surrounded by a fence and common green areas we are forced to pay these fees and have no rights what's so ever in regards to decisions being made on our housing estate. This right is only reserved to the 'A' Shareholders namely the Landowner & Management Company. This 2 can do whatever they like it seems and we are left powerless to do anything about it especially as the Council have refused to get involved saying that our roads can not be adopted as they are to narrow and would cost the Council too much money, as there excuse.
So we are left on our own. However the story does not end there. We formed a residents association to see if we could challenge this set-up and by studying our Title Deeds to our individual homes we discovered that when the last house on the estate was sold off to a private householder, our 'B' non-voting shares where to be transferred into 'A' Voting Shares giving us the right to attend the AGM's and have our say. Well the last house on the estate was sold in March 2001 and our non-voting shares should have been turned into 'A' Voting shares.
So after forming the Residents Associations of which I am it's current Chairman in 2005 we sought legal advice from a local solicitor who said we had every right to become legally binding 'A' Voting Shareholders and that no court in the land would deny us of this entitlement. However, we are still no further ahead and since this has kicked off, our landowner/developer has built more new house on our playgrounds & common areas bringing the Total to 167 houses on our estate which was orginally designed and built for just 148. As a result this has put our current Sewage & Drains under huge pressure causing serious back-up problems with raw sewage overflowing into some of the home's and gardens at the bottom of our estate. The orginal system was designed for just 148 homes and no more.
We are at a loss as to know what we can do next. We need help from anyone who can help us to get our rightful 'A' Shares transferred and for us to take control of our own housing estate. I am also keen to here from anyone who can help us with our right to manage ourselves. [Personal email address removed by moderator.]
Thank you for taking the time to read this ... we look forward to hearing from anyone that can help and assist us !
Yours for the cause ... RHB
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Leaseholders also have the right to apply to a Leasehold Valuation Tribunal to remove their manager if the manager has demanded an unreasonable service charge or not complied with one of the statutory Codesof Practice. The RICS Service Charge Residential Management Code has just been reissued and all managing agents should know of its existence. In addition, where a leaseholder has already paid a service charge that they consider to be unreasonable they may also apply to the Tribunal for a determination of their liability to pay those charges. This applies to service charges already paid and those payable in the future.
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Silversurferextra
You think that you have problems, most retirement housing, apartments and houses are leasehold. Service charges are higher because of the aditional services offered and trying to coordinate a group of fellow residents with an average age of 75, some of whom are forgetful, frightened of what might happen if they displease the Managing Agent or just don't want to know.is frustrating It often means trying to interest their children in the problems and many moved their parents into such a community not to have to bother about them.
RTM would be a way out but it is only open to flats, not to houses. Buying the freehold would not be what many want to spend their savings on.
Interestingly our Managing Agent felt that ARMA was too strict and they (the Freeholder and the Managing Agent are literally the same person)are setting up their own property developer association.
Inspecting the receipts and invoices would be an option but strangley everything, even the communal lighting, heating and water is purchased from the utility companies by another company in the group, and we are not allowed to see any actual invoices, etc. because that is commercial in confidence information belonging to the other company. Ditto the staff. So all we ever see are spread sheets produced by our Managing Agent.
Don't ask about the Lease, which permits the Freeholder to change or drop every service but tightly holds the leaseholder to their commitments. Its probably in breach of the Unfair Contract terms Act but we would have to go to court to prove that. And so on, and so on
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Satisfied with my management company? Not certain, but I AM certain that others are not better! I was well aware of my right to organise a change of company (and in Scotland it may not involve court proceedings) and I know because I got involved in my local Community Council. I strongly advise attending such meetings - one tier below the city council - as my experience with the Merchant City Community Council in Glasgow is that they discuss matters of direct relevance to residents. That's how I know that other factors are worse, and also what to do about it!
Richard
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I am a Chartered Surveyor and have worked in property management for the past 20 years. I don't always get it right either!
I only ever get appointed as a managing agent for a managemnent company owned by residents ( I notice from many messages that many people confuse managing agents and management companies).
Two points, unlike one of your others bloggers (Blogwart) just because I am a Chartered Surveyor doesn't put the level of our service beyond question. Unfortunately the RICS provides little support to residential property managers- lots though to commercial property managers- so many members are forced to obtain ARMA membership. Personally I feel ARMA support to members to be excellent. Secondly the main problem with service levels is with the large national property companies, usually those who consider there jobs to be 'Asset Management' rather than people's homes.
There is a simple solution and that is to allow leaseholders to be in a position to sack their agents, a change in the law could achieve this, and I don't mean the RTM nonsence which does half the task and is difficult for leaseholders. Make all providers of services paid for by service charges accountable. There is nothing like the prospect of losing a contract to make you learn and change. If you can't change or do not feel you want to provide a level of service then resign. If a leaseholder is expecting too much for the fee then that will become evidents elsewhere. This is about realistic expectations.
Agents, or providers of services in exchange for service charges, need to understand that we need huge levels of trust from leaseholders (or householders) as we ask for payment in advance before a service is ever provided, accountability and transparency seems to be generally poor, and we need to do more. Unfortunately, by and large, it is the large companies that most often let us all down.
The mantra should be advise your client, recieve instructions, implement instructions. This works best when residents control the management through a single body and this is where the law should focus. If you can't acheive this then walk away.
Property management is a service industry and we have to do better, I admit that after my 20 years I still am not entirely happy with my service, and yes I also get sacked as the agent sometimes and it make me reflect on what I ( not the residents) have done wrong.
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I am a shared owner of a flat. The housing association have charged us leaseholders to paint the communal stairs. They billed us a year later and denied receiving our complaints about paint being dripped up the stairs, incomplete works and general sub standard work. Each time they send the contractor out to remedy any thing they mess it up even more - came round to clean up paint and smoked indoors (illegal), came to paint my neighbour's balcony and spilt more paint, re varnished the front door and left no wet door sign so I ended up with wet varnish on my hand.
For a housing assocation to offer property to those of us on low wages and then charge excessive amounts for maintenance is a joke. they put the maintence and rent up each year and we get nothing from it. They now want £200 from us to replace the washing line in the garden.
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I am a Director and Operations Manager at a Property Management Company. We are members of ARMA, a very fair employer and do our very best for our clients on a daily basis.
Nonetheless, we are constantly told by leaseholders that they pay us a huge amount of money and see no return. Our fees, in fact, are approximately £150 per annum per flat, which equates to approximately £3.00 per week per flat – not an unreasonable fee in reality..
Most leaseholders fail to appreciate that the major part of the service charge amount they are paying is for fixed items such as Buildings Insurance, Cleaning, Gardening, Lift Maintenance, Electricity etc. Part of our role is to estimate how much the repairs will be (and we don’t have crystal balls ) – and many times, when I attend meetings with leaseholders and explain how the service charge is allocated- then they get an understanding of matters and start to work with us instead of against us.
Because of the nature of the business and if we are doing our job properly, then there is nothing to see or report - it is an invisible spend. Who would think to call us to say they are grateful the lift worked today or that the path had no weeds, or that the accounts are in good order ?
I think the problem lies in a few specific areas as follows :-
We are constantly dealing with leaseholders who have recently purchased flats and have no idea of the implications of their purchase. Neither the Estate Agents, or their solicitors have explained the obligations to which they are committed under their lease.. The worst offenders are developers and estate agents selling new builds. They often tell potential purchasers that the service charges are going to be virtually nothing and then disappear when they are all sold and we are left to manage a property where we immediately have to put together a proper budget that will cover the real costs- having the effect of making us hugely unpopular before we have even started.
The leaseholders of flats in our area are frequently first time buyers or retirees downsizing to a lower maintenance property. The first time buyers have usually stretched themselves to the limit, and the retirees are usually on fixed incomes – neither of them having any extra money for unforeseen issues, including various Government iniatives, that may require a special levy to be raised. This is exacerbated by the fact no-one explained the cost implication of leasehold to them as I mentioned above.
Another issue is their lack of understanding of new legislation and its cost implications upon leaseholders. Arma and the RICS do a wonderful job of translating the latest government acts for Managing Agents, but we are the ones who have to apply it, and the leaseholders are the ones who have to pay for it. I appreciate that some legislation is designed to protect the leaseholders, and on many occasions it is very useful – but the same legislation applies to a block of 2 as applies to a block of 200 – and the costs are split 200 ways in the bigger block, but are 50% each in the block of two. All our blocks now must have a 5 yearly Hard wire Test, a Health & Safety Risk Assessment, a Fire Risk Assessment, an Asbestos Survey (where applicable) and the list gets bigger every year. They invariably bring in cost implications for work that is required as a result of the inspections, for which, once again, the leaseholders have to pay.
Managing Agents are also invariably blamed when something goes wrong. As an example of this ,I had a leaseholder screaming at me because the lift had broken down and somehow blaming the managing agent.You would have thought I had been at the block that morning sabotaging it myself. On occasion, when a costlyproblem has arisen ,we prewarn the leaseholders and are promptly sacked as they lay the blame at our door.
There is never enough money to do everything that needs doing to a block. This is not helped by defective leases which don’t even allow for sinking funds which puts further strain on leaseholders. We have to adhere to the cyclical maintenance as specified in the lease, but the law states that we cannot appoint a contractor until we have sufficient money to pay for it.For example, if we raise a bill for a roof repair, and 9 out of 10 leaseholders in a block pay for it, but we have to sue the 10th to get their money, which takes more time, then the other 9 all start to ring us up and complain that they have paid for work that has not yet been carried out. Data Protection prevents us from discussing the leaseholder that has not paid, so the other 9 immediately think we are at fault.
Another huge issue, is Directors of Management Companies or Right to Manage Companies (appointed from amongst the leaseholders themselves) who have hidden agendas, or sometimes even personal vendettas against other leaseholders in the same block. Annual General Meetings often become hostile, and I often have to “referee” meetings and try to steer them back on course, not always successfully.
I am pretty fed up with feeling like the Traffic Warden of the Property Industry. Most of us are honest, open and do our best with limited funds and all for £3.00 a week…..
Nonetheless I love my job, have a wonderful staff, and where our clients have an understanding of leasehold we have really good relationships with them.
Blaming an industry itself for being unregulated is ridiculous. How can it be our fault if the government chooses not to regulate us despite all the persuasion from our trade organisations?
Biased reporting such as yours, misrepresenting the issues, with a lack of explanation of the legislation binding leasehold properties and tarring all Property Managers with the same brush does not help and I expected better, fairer reporting from an institution such the BBC.
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Hi
All these comments are really helpful as someone who also lives in Leasehold accommodation managed or mismanaged by a very large company.
It's worth stating here that Right to Manage is actually really difficult, or even non negotiable, if your property is above shops according to most of the advice I've been given. So we're at stalemate.
I have also heard mixed reviews re the LVT....
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Some very interesting comments on this particular topic.
Having had an absent landlord and negligent managing agents for a number of years, leading to nearly two decades of disrepair and neglect I can confirm that a reversal is possible but only when a competent and professional agent is secured. I would also however advise that having achieved this reversal by researching leasehold extensively and pretty much working fulltime (unpaid) for 4 years, tackling the situation is not for the faint hearted.
[Website address removed by Moderator]
Regards
Sharon
Leasehold Life
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I haven't read through all of the comments, so apologies for any repitition, but this also affects residents on shared ownership schemes. I live on a development in Thamesmead, the housing association is [company removed], and they have increased our rent by 25 per cent this year - so the rent amount is actually now more than my mortgage. Apparently, this is because of the increases to service charges over the past few years, which [they] 'forgot' to pass on to residents, and are now trying to recoup in a short space of time! The property management company create nothing but hell for the residents. A few months ago - yes, in the middle of winter - [the property management company] managed to not pay the electricity bill for my block for a number of months, which resulted in our water supply being cut off for over 24 hours. Turns out they owed EDF almost £60,000, but depsite receiving the service charge every month, they couldn't be bothered to pay it, ignored numerous demands, and eventually left us with no running water in our flats and no electrics in the communal areas. They didn't even bother to tell us what the problem was, one of the residents found out and then took the time to print out letters and let us all know. Moat were also nowhere to be seen throughout the whole sorry situation. Apparently, this isn't the first time [they] have been in trouble for unreasonable rent charges either. [URL links removed]
It's disgusting, shared ownership is supposed to be a way for those on lower incomes to get onto the housing ladder, but instead we are ripped off by the very people who have been put in place to protect our interests!!
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Hello,
I own a leasehold flat and have been in dispute with my management company from day one. They dont seem to care about the maintenance of the building and when challanged all they do is tell lies. The local council has even had trouble getting them to rectify issues which if left my have lead to health problems.
Work which was to be done on the building was quoted by the management at £6000 and when i took it upon myself to get an independant quote this came out at over half the price. Other work which has been done has all been sub standard.
Its a total rip off and unfortunatley as the value of my property has reduced i'm unable to sell.
I have refused to increase my monthly payment.
I cannot believe that these people can get away with it!!!!!
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I read the comments about ARMA with great interest. Based on experience we are of the opinion that ARMA err on the side of the Managing Agent no matter what they have done. I was advised to seek help from ARMA at the advice of the Lease Hold Avisory Team who were excellent. I followed ARMA's rules, after explaining the problem was put through to the CEO who asked me to document the problem and that in the first instance he would contact the agent. A couple of weeks later I received a brief email with an email attachment from the agent, basically saying nothing. I then received another email from a ARMA rep informing me that if I needed them to progress things I had to follow the procedures, also that they did not talk to anyone direct and all communication now had to be by email. I gave up as they clearly show they act on the side of the agent. If you view their agents Code of Conduct my list noted a breach against each. If they are sited as a body to help the leaseholder and dont where can you go. Condoning bad behaviour ecourages further bad behaviour these bad agents will continue to hide!
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I felt that the comment made by Andrew R (At 7:50pm on 20 Apr 2009, Andrew-R wrote:) from someone that looks for person to blame which my experience the stance of a Bad Managing Agent. A more productive response would be to look to who has accounability and is being paid for the task. Whilst I agree that people should have respect to where they place their rubbish expending efforts finger pointing is not condusive to resolving the situation.
In our case when we experienced a situation and reporting rats the Managing Agents response was such that he wasnt paid to monitor everyones use of the bin and it wasnt his problem and anyhow how long would it take for me to clean it up if I was that concerned!
What is his accountability of course is to ensure the building and surroundings is kept clean and maintained approriately. Given that rats appear to be deemed appropriate I can only assume that they maybe colleagues of his!...
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