Problems with Gas Safe cards
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Back in March, Watchdog reported that since 1 April 2009, domestic gas engineers in England, Scotland and Wales have had to bin their old Corgi cards and sign on to the Gas Safe Register. Anyone who's carrying out work on a gas appliance will need a Gas Safe registration card. This is to prove your gas engineer is competent and qualified. Unless they're registered with the Gas Safe Register, they're not legally allowed to do any work.
But, since we told you about the new scheme, Watchdog has heard from gas engineers unhappy about how the new cards have been introduced.
Gas engineer Mark Taylor applied for his new card in early March. But by 1 April 2009 - the day the scheme came into force - Mark's Gas Safe card hadn't arrived. He had no choice but to start refusing jobs. His card finally turned up three weeks later. But when he checked the back of the card he realised there was a problem. He found that three of his qualifications are listed as only being valid until the end of the month, even though they are valid far beyond that.
Charlie Mullins, managing director of Pimlico Plumbers, a company employing 150 engineers also says the changeover's been a problem. They say 20 per cent of their gas engineers have had difficultly obtaining their photographic card and their certification.
Charlie was also concerned that the general public aren't aware of the change from Corgi to Gas Safe Register.
Confusion about new card
There did seem to be some confusion among the members of the public Watchdog spoke to. To add to the confusion, the new card isn't being introduced everywhere in the UK. In Northern Ireland and the Channel Islands, the old Corgi card is still in use.
If the qualified engineers can't get the cards, and the public don't recognise them, then maybe this changeover hasn't gone quite as smoothly as it might. We'll leave the Gas Safe Register to sort out the cards. But we can help clear up any confusion. If you book a gas engineer and you live in England, Scotland or Wales then this is the card you need to ask to see:
When Watchdog contacted the Gas Safety Register it said: "The contract to run the scheme was awarded in September 2008 and gas engineers have been able to register with Gas Safe Register since 19 January 2009. More than 54,000 businesses employing around 115,000 gas engineers have registered to date.
"The typical time for producing and distributing a card where all of the relevant data has been supplied and verified is 5 -10 working days. In cases where data supplied to us has been incomplete or requiring verification we work with the applicant to establish the areas for clarification and issue the card as soon as possible.
"We have issued in the order of 115,000 cards and the overwhelming majority of engineers and businesses have encountered no difficulties. For the small minority who have had problems we have a number of systems and processes in place to ensure we quickly identify any issues and address them - we recognise the importance to businesses in having accurate and up to date information.
"In Mr Taylor's case the process is to withhold a card if a valid qualification is not held on the system. We only received the details of his updated qualifications in the last 24 hours; without these we were unable to issue a new card. We will be speaking to him to explain the process and how we validate data when we receive it from external bodies, we have also arranged for his new card to be dispatched to him by Tuesday."
Promoting the new Register
"Gas Safe Register exists to protect the public from unsafe gas work, so before issuing an ID card we must be certain that the engineer's qualifications and other information is complete and correct. This is essential to protect and keep consumers safe.
"Since 19 January, 115,000 gas engineers have registered with Gas Safe Register. The vast majority have received their ID cards without a problem.
"A few engineers have experienced a delay and we apologise for any frustration this has caused. However, it is essential that we maintain consumer confidence by only issuing cards once we have complete and verified information. We are all working hard to ensure that registrations are completed as safely and as soon as possible. However, any gas engineers that have not received a card but are registered can still undertake gas work.
"Householders should always ask to see the card, but this is not the only way they can check their gas engineer's credentials. You can also find this information on our website or by telephoning our free helpline on 0800 408 5500.
"We have undertaken a major publicity campaign to reach engineers and consumers which has included the extensive use of TV, radio, outdoor and newspaper advertising. We also begin a series of roadshows starting in Glasgow next month. The important thing to remember is that Gas Safe Register launched on 1 April and is the only register of legal gas engineers that are properly qualified to work with gas."
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Watchdog should also investigate the transition of Corgi to Gas Safe. Anyone who previously complained to Corgi and has not had a resolution to their case, will probably need to re-register the complaint again as Corgi has not transferred this information over.
If the complaint was forwarded to the HSE, then they can use their powers to get information from Corgi.
Although, as I have found out, if it is the first complaint about a plumber that the HSE has received - they will do nothing about it. Even if the plumber has illegally installed Gas appliances, the HSE will do nothing. So where's the consumer protection in that!!!!
Just another example of Barmey Britain!!!
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I have just seen your report on the Gas Safe Register and feel compelled to make comment. Throughout the article, you insisted on referring to the practitioners who work on gas appliances as Gas 'Engineers'. As a fully qualified Chartered Engineer of many years standing, I can assure you they are NOT engineers, they are Gas Technicians. I know that the Gas Safe Register also inaccurately refers to them as Engineers, but that is no excuse for a respected institution like the BBC to publish reports compounding the error. There are vans up and down the country denigrating the profession of Engineering in the UK by calling themselves 'heating and ventilation engineers' when they actually mean 'plumbers' (illegal in many countries that give true engineers the respect they deserve) and when the BBC jumps on the same bandwagon of ignorance it only further exasperates the many professional Engineers in this country who are still trying to get the recognition and status they deserve and which should stand on the same if not higher level than several other professions that already get it thrust upon them - doctors, lawyers, accountants, bankers - often undeservedly in the case of the last two! You know, Engineers that came from the profession that created the wealth and strength of this country in the first industrial revolution and put the Great into Britain, the country that quickly forgot them and failed to invest in the right gems of engineering brilliance, unlike countries such as the USA and Germany who reaped the benefits for their economies - don't forget it was the banks that plundered it all!
Eur Ing Gary Harris BSc CEng MIMechE
[Note from Watchdog: One user responds:
"I believe this post is defamatory or libellous for the following reason: the user stated that people working on gas are not engineers and cannot be called as such, the use of the term engineer is unregulated in this country, and personally believe that the term engineer not just covers professional engineers with a degree in engineering and registered with a institute, but someone with a professional qualification and registered with a governing body. We are not just 'plumbers' as we have to work hard to qualify for registration which has to be renewed every five years, which obviously degrees are not. This is also off topic as this is not about the issue of the new gas safe registration cards"
Best regards, web team]
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I'd never heard of them until tonight!
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Received initial card in January but expiry of qualifications on 20 April 2009 meant having to speak to various Gas Safe operatives all of which told me something different when questioning how he was going to get this new card due to the transfer to Gas Safe - qualifications had been acieved 6 weeks previously but due to difficulties in transferring of data this resulted in husband's name being taken off register on 20 April 2009 without any notification despite asking repeatedly - again after several telephone calls - what would happen if they did not receive this information (they could have put "pending award" as looked very bad when any prospective customers checking the website that day found he had been removed! They then advised me that my husband should not be doing gas work until he was back on register yet couldn't tell me when that would be - yet I had made the tel call to them - they said that he should have been lettered - still waiting for this letter-again. Due to the urgency we then had to contact NICEIC name that day and go back to Gas Register to be put back on register as they had, in fact sent details to Gas Safe. Re charges for card had over several months when first asked about this to "send card back and they would send out a new card without charge" "if I don't send back there will be a £10 charge" and "no charge" and after discussions re the above last week told a charge of "£11.20" - no where on site is this advised - but on Saturday recd card with no apparent charge with wrong details ie valid from 01/04/2009 - 20/04/2009 - also qualifications on the back which are valid for 5 years now appear to have expired on 20 April 2009 which is the date that first card expired. Called Gas Safe today and assured that correct new card is new card is in the post.
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hi,
im a new member to the gas trade and just spent 428 pound registering for a gas safe register card. i filled in the form and sent it off along with a passport photograph (even though it did not tell you to on the form) along with a cover later stating that an adviser of theres told me to put in the photo and a cover letter explaining. several weeks passed and still no card. i then phone gas safe up and they said they had lost the photo and could i scan and email another one to them, meanwhile, several weeks more later and still no card. i am in the process of starting my own business and cant even accept any work without the card as i need to prove to my clients that im able to carry out the work. not only that, i cant even buy gas components over the counter because you need to show the card which i still dont have. ive paid my money....i just want my card!!
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Why have trained, qualified Gas Engineers had to ditch their Corgi cards and PAY for new Gas Cards?
Yet another Government idea, I dare say, that will cost thousands to replace but paying some bureaucrat a vast pay packet to come up with this hairbrain idea. Causing chaos for Qualified, Skilled engineers, not being able to work, waiting for their cards to appear.
Why do we sit back and take this rubbish all the time? There needs to be more people saying NO we need to do more to stop the waste of public money.
Child Tax Credits - shambles
CRB - Shambles
SATS testing - shambles
DVLA - shambles
and on and on, etc, etc All Government Dept. controlled organisations
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A couple of things come to mind,
I was only asked for my CORGI card once in the past fifteen years.
Customers can telephone GasSafe Register to confirm the Plumber is who they say they are.
If a few sightly incorrectly produced cards is all we have to worry about then the current holder of the register will be a marked improvement over the preivious holder of the register.
Has any one considered that CORGI mmay have been less than helpfull with the change over.
Tim
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With regard to gapalucani's comments, I personally do not use any title other than Registered Gas Installer and I do agree that engineer in this country should receive the status it deserves.
People also seem to make comment on this matter without looking for the facts or into the background of how Gas Safe Register came about, regardless of who had won the bid the name was to change, reason, probably due to the public misconception that being a Corgi registrant meant more than gas.
In that respect the name Gas Safe Register should take things back to basics.
Hiccups and teething problems with registration. Fact Corgi had been the registrar since 1991 and still had never got it right. As Mr Puddick has pointed out, who held the information that Gas Safe needed to carry out this years process?
The BBC has pointed out that Corgi still retain the register in Northern Ireland, the week prior to the registration date 1st April many installers had still not received registration packs from Corgi, haven't spoken to one yet that has received this years card.
sarn_jam wrote:
Why have trained, qualified Gas Engineers had to ditch their Corgi cards and PAY for new Gas Cards?
We have always had to every year on April fools day, this year it was cheaper.
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"allianceheating", along with other new members of the gas trade would benefit from joining the Association of Registered Gas Installers a web based association where older and wiser members help the slightly less knowledgeable develop their skills.
http://www.argi-online.org.uk/index.html
Appologies to moderater if this commennt is not appropriate.
[Note from Watchdog: Thank you for your comment. This type or URL link passes our rules as it is a non-commercial website. Best wishes, web team]
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sarn jam
We had to pay money to CORGI each year this is not a new thing just a change of the register holder. Corgi lost the gas register because they were were exposed as a money grabbing bunch who put profit before gas safety. Watchdog should do an investigation into the accounting practices of Corgi. That WOULD be interesting. I have registered with Gas Safe and have had no problem with the change over. As Timothy Puddick said, I have never been asked for my Corgi card in the last 10 years either.
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As a gas installer myself, I've been observing the chage to Gas Safe Register quite closely. I have no complaints about its handling in my own case.
Gas Safe was reported on Watchdog as having issued 115000 new cards. That's a lot fewer than numbers quoted previously for the total on the CORGI register. Even allowing for Northern Ireland and other bits of UK still under CORGI, this doesn't add up. Previous numbers quoted were around 128000, so I reckon there are 8 to 10000 missing. I suppose these could be people who've retired in the last year - but what about all the new joiners that should balance them out?
- IF the database handed-over to Capita was accurate and up-to-date, renewal SHOULD be ridiculously simple. There are three possible explanations for failures: missing information or no payment from the installer, inaccurate data on the database, or complete incompetence within Capita. I suggest Watchdog should ask Capita for the statistics, to illustrate the split between these three reasons. (I doubt that many installers messed up the paperwork, and I'd have thought that Capita would have squealed like a stuck pig if they had received any duff data from CORGI. So the inference is already clear - incompetence.)
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I was pleased to see the comments made by turn99 with regard to the HSE this is absolutely true. I and my daughter have gone through hell since January supposedly supported by Corgi and then HSE with assurances that the landlady, agent and gas fitter involved would all face proceedings. I was told that every single person has an obligation under "duty of Care" in almost every single thing in life today. Having discovered that my daughter had been living whilst at Uni in a flat covered by a false gas certificate, issued by a non registered fitter, who supplied an out of date number and false date of work and that the newly fitted boiler had been so badly fitted that 12 leaks of immediate danger existed that the gas was turned off when it was-8 outside and snowing. I was in touch with Corgi who asked me if I was prepared to file an official complaint. This I did feeling it was my duty to prevent this man and landlady continuing until someone gets hurt. I had already been without heat and hot water for 9 days at the commencement of my lease with no compensation although it was promised by the agent and after the gas board shut down the gas in January in order for Corgi to carry out its investigation I was without hot water and central heating for nearly a whole month. The landlady and the agents were made aware of the problems and issued with the notices left by the gas board yet when corgi eventually turned up three weeks later to do their investigation (first date available) they said I then had to get a corgi registered fitter to do the repairs as the fitting and original repair were all carried out by the rogue fitter. It was against the law for me to turn on the gas again. The landlady claimed she knew nothing about it all and the agent claimed I had not told them and they were unaware! Even though at our meeting when I gave them the notices they took copies and made notes in the book kept as the official office register! Also after the gas was cut off the landlady decided to give me notice to quit. Corgi assured me the report would be sent to HSE for prosecution but it now turns out that this is the first time this fitter has been reported and they will do nothing. Also HSE claim the landlady wrote them a letter saying she was unaware of the situation and did not know the fitter was unregistered didnt know him (in spite of the fact that her mother had insisted on using him as he was an old friend who had dealt with the flat and the boiler for years) the result they are both going to get a warning letter.
Its obvious this fitter has not only worked on my flat but I am apparently the first person prepared to stand up and do what I thought was my duty to others. This flat is over shops with other flats in a busy street in Southsea. The thought of a gas explosion in any environment is appalling but this one just makes me feel sick. The fact that my daughter suffered headaches whilst in the flat which disappeared when she was at uni convinces me that she was gently being poisoned. Corgi even asked that she be checked for carbon monoxide poisoning but only days after the gas was turned off and the doctor said the check would have to have been immediate to be of use. We have all heard of terrible cases of students being poisoned or gas explosions where there are faulty items - we all probably say the same things. How can this be allowed to happen in this day and age why were the checks not sufficient. Well this is why I felt it my duty to do what I could to stop this flat being a danger and make the landlady take responsibility for her premises. She takes £625 a month for a tiny flat yet cant provide the basics of hot water and heating. I have to add that the most help we received was from the housing department over her notice to my daughter to quit. I was amazed at the efficiency and help and support and the time they took to reassure and support my daughter - so there is some good out there. I know for a fact that the current gas certificate ( by a confirmed corgi fitter) is incorrect. This fitter stated the gas fire in the sitting room was not to regulation because it was not ventilated (same as corgi said) he then stopped the gas supply to this fire even though I told him I did not use it as corgi and the gas board had told me not to and said that the gas supply should be cut off until the fire met regulations. He then went to the letting agents where his son works and next day came back with a new certificate on which he had marked the fire was safe and could be used. the first one confirmed it could not. I rang the agents and pointed this out asking if I could use the fire and they said of course - it has not been corrected since the corgi report and the corgi fitter himself has stopped the gas supply yet he has seen fit to issue a second gas certificate saying it is safe. Why should we trust these people and why cant they be taken to task. My daughter is leaving this flat on 31 May. She has always paid her rent on time, kept the flat clean and tidy, been a quiet and respectable tenant. she chose to live alone in a private flat as she is a hard working student and in her final year needed peace and quiet. instead she has been harrassed and left with no heating and hot water and treated very badly. In fact since the beginning of April, my husband and I have been taking it in turns to be in England (we live in France) for two weeks at a time in order to protect my daughter from any problems that would distract from her studies. Each time we travel it must cost at least £300 in travel fees each trip. My point in Barmy Britain when all you hear is people moaning about health and safety stupidity - why when gas is concerned are these people just going to get a letter warning them. They have broken the law. If the thing had exploded would they still have just got a letter. Perhaps this is why we hear such sad cases on the news. This should be publicised. More to the point. I have just heard that this flat is being advertised for rent again. The gas certificate has been altered. the gas cooker is not to standard and neither is the gas fire - will a new tenant be as lucky as my daughter or will they pay the price - shouldnt they be warned. Sorry to go on and on and yes on but I feel so strongly about this. I felt physically sick when I realised what danger my daughter had been in I tremble at the thought of how sick I will feel if someone else's daughter isnt as lucky - I think I would be as responsible for that as the landlady and agent but WHAT can I do about it we are talking about life here not some rogue fitters first reported offence (heaven knows what else he might have done) or some landlady claiming she didnt know. I'm telling them both now and the HSE that its not good enough.
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pomaryjane
After reading through your post, may I suggest you read through the Gas Safety Installation and use Regulations 1998. Then go back to HSE stating which regulations have been broken.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1998/19982451.htm
example.
Regulation 3
Qualification and supervision
3. - (1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so.
(2) The employer of any person carrying out such work for that employer, every other employer and self-employed person who has control to any extent of such work and every employer and self-employed person who has required such work to be carried out at any place of work under his control shall ensure that paragraph (1) above is complied with in relation to such work.
(3) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraphs (1) and (2) above and subject to paragraph (4) below, no employer shall allow any of his employees to carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or service pipework and no self-employed person shall carry out any such work, unless the employer or self-employed person, as the case may be, is a member of a class of persons approved for the time being by the Health and Safety Executive for the purposes of this paragraph.
Regulation4
Duty on employer
4. Where an employer or a self-employed person requires any work in relation to a gas fitting to be carried out at any place of work under his control or where an employer or self-employed person has control to any extent of work in relation to a gas fitting, he shall take reasonable steps to ensure that the person undertaking that work is, or is employed by, a member of a class of persons approved by the Health and Safety Executive under regulation 3(3) above.
---------------
That's just a starter from what you have posted
Regulation 26
Gas appliances - safety precautions
26. - (1) No person shall install a gas appliance unless it can be used without constituting a danger to any person.
Regulation 35
Duties of employers and self-employed persons
35. It shall be the duty of every employer or self-employed person to ensure that any gas appliance, installation pipework or flue installed at any place of work under his control is maintained in a safe condition so as to prevent risk of injury to any person.
Regulation 36
Duties of Landlords
Plenty to be getting on with there. I do believe the organisation Mr Puddick posted about can be quite helpful as well.
Best Wishes
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
have just noticed on the Gas Safe Register website that a member of the public can look up my licence number and see my photo, to verify my identity. Seems a good idea at first - prevent someone with a forged card from impersonating a bona-fide operative - but doesn't it make Id theft easier? Besides, if I turn up at somebody's house to do some work, it is because they have called me and requested it - I am am not likely to be an unsolicited bogus caller.
Apart from basic privacy issues: it took years for example to get the government to give us the choice of not having our electoral roll information being made public, and yet councils were still selling our data to 192.com, so why should we trust a private body like Capita with our privacy?
Is it just me or does it seem unbelievably stupid and unnecessary?
The authorities seem to be getting themselves in a tangle with data and privacy.
Oh, and the only information about the changeover I have seen, on TV or elsewhere, was on Watchdog!
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After being a member of CORGI for many years I just completed my Gas Safe competence course paying out over £700 plus losing 3 days wages and then to be told I had to pay to register to get my card. I sent off £218 as requested plus all needed documents - only to get a phone call to saythey wanted another £218 to register me as a new member, they can not find me on the old Corgi data base! What can I do? I need to work but can not afford these ridiculous prices - and they said they would be fairer to the working man when they took over Corgi!
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