Freedom of speech?
A Dutch MP, banned from the UK because of what have been described as his Islamophobic views is now coming to Britain next week - and we're planning to speak to him on the programme this morning.
Yesterday the Asylum and Immigration Tribunal overturned the ban on Geert Wilders who tried to visit London in February but was turned away when he arrived at Heathrow. He was invited by by the UKIP peer Lord Pearson to show his film Fitna to the House of Lords.The film intercuts verses from the Koran with footage of 9/11 and the Madrid bombings - you can watch it on Youtube.
Originally the Home Office barred him saying his presence "would pose a genuine, present and significantly serious threat to one of the fundamental interests of society. The Secretary of State is satisfied that Mr Wilders' statements about Musllims and their beliefs, as expressed in the film and elsewhere, would threaten community harmony and therefore public safety in the UK".
Is it right that Mr Wilders comes to the UK and shows his film?
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Is it any worse that this man should be allowed into the country , than it is letting extreme Islamic groups shout insults at the troops marching through Luton ?
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Islam is not a race - it is a religion. Racist claims are therefore not valid. We have had Islamic preachers spouting their bile and hatred on the streets of this country and they are allowed to continue. Let the man say his piece, we are supposed to be still a free country.
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To be honest with you I am not bother if Mr Wilders is coming to UK and showing his contravertial movie... what saddened and angered me the comments about islam/quran made by Lord Pearson. Now people who are not muslim will teach all muslims how quran/islam should be read & practise. I think its a big acheivement by Mr Wilders that he is able to convince people like Lord Pearson that he can dictate how to run ISLAM or Muslim in this country. Lord thinks by him coming to UK opens the way to dialogue but my personal view as a lay man is that it will alienate muslim community more by believing that our own politician hate or criticize the BOOK & believe which are very sacred to us. And on freedom of information question I would like to raise a question would Lord Pearson send invitatioin to an Iranin politician who doesnt like the way Israelis are going on doing things in middle east?
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The interview (with the UKIP MP and the Muslim Representative) was, sadly, predictably disappointing.
And - you're being disingenous Victoria when you keep spouting that all religions are the same; they all have their zealots etc etc.
The sooner that people acknowledge that there really is a problem (instead of pretending that there isn't) the sooner maybe that something can be done to try and solve it.
And, I agree with Zelda - Muslim/Islam is NOT a race. It's a religion.
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As usual, Victoria is letting Moslems dominate the programme. If some of the views expressed that this is such an "bad" country to live in, I'd like to know why they choose to live here!
It must be a real fear, that if there will ever be an uprising against the indigenous people of our country, all Moslem brothers will stand together.
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Why are Muslims frightened of any scrutiny of their religion. why don't more speak out against terrorism. Surely they could start by decrying suicide bombers who think they are going to 'paradise'. If they thought that they were to rot in hell maybe they would think again. let's have some tolerance and live and let live.
Andrew
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Hi...what do you think of the film?
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Which one is it? The first one?
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"And, I agree with Zelda - Muslim/Islam is NOT a race. It's a religion."
neither are jewish people, but that has never prevented jewish people claiming to be a race. (scientific-genetic fact)
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People can claim what they like - it doesn't make it so.
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"Why are Muslims frightened of any scrutiny of their religion."
it is not scrutiny of faith that they are contesting but the inability to have a fair and honest open discussion/debate.
the uk media is predominantly hostile to islam and muslims egged on by government (for its own political reasons) .
the issue is most people here such as yourself would be experts of the faith after watching the nonsense of wilders and reading the express or the sun. whilst those who are scholars are denied access.
the real debate would have been between a islamic scholar (recognised as such by the muslim community) and wilders .
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"Hi...what do you think of the film?"
its rather shocking to have seen a link to a film that is outrageously inciting hate and disseminating lies without any remedy.
what is the point of asking a non muslim about a film that they could not provide the religious context as being accurate or not?
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You don't half go on wendymann.
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Will it ever be possible to spaek freely without such anger in this country? I don't agree with his views, but he has as much right to visit this country as others. I was more offended by the outrageous treatment the troops had in Luton.
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dont let facts get in the way of bigotry is what i say. the european union itself (europpol) has found that of the most serious terrorists acts in 2006 of 500 or so 3 were 'muslim related' in the following year of some 600 acts 5 were 'muslim related. and yet wilders claims that 99.9% of terrorist acts are by muslims. why was this lie allowed to stand?
he claimed that the reason for mid east not being democracies etc was as a result of islam , but had nothing to do with the idea of past colonisation, our continued support for despotic leaders and regimes. curious.
and interestingly he failed to mention that the so called democracy of israel which hasnt obeyed UN resolutions with respect to palestinieans is currently accused of war crimes by richard goldstone a self confessed zionist and jewish person on behalf of the UN.
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I am not an 'expert' on any religion, in fact i am an atheist. i just think Muslims could do themselves a great service by speaking out loudly and continually against all violence in the name of religion.
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Wendy - you have been spouting your anti-semitism for many years on the BBC Boards - it was boring then and it's boring now.
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ok finally, it is intriguing the way bbc has been courting the extremist right recently but not surprising that it has yet another islamophobe on its channels without adequate resources for an adequate response. (i suspect nick griffin will be given the same courtesy to spout his hate message too)
now let me put wilders argument in a slightly different context but accurate to his sentiments as expressed today.
what one is against is the judaisation of europe, what one wants is to deny is the freedom of jewish people to practice their faith, deny the skull cap and beards, close jewish schools and synagogues.
christianity , humanism , western culture is far superior than judaism which is a religion of medieval hate. what one supports is the encouraging of jewish people to be assisted into leaving holland .
one is not against jewish people but i stand against the jewish faith, that is is evil, hateful and is inferior to our culture. one wants to stop immgration of jewish people primarily from the jewish state.
still sounds reasonable - adolf?
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You have a problem wendymann - You should seek help.
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I have a real problem with a religion that is anti-gay, anti-adultery but pro-violence against the offenders.
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Or a religion that stones people who have been raped.
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"I would like to raise a question would Lord Pearson send invitatioin to an Iranin politician who doesnt like the way Israelis are going on doing things in middle east?"
it doesnt take a islam to kill homosexuals as the news item this morning reports of an homophobic attack . in fact i cant recall of any vigilantism or muslim rampage against homosexuals, or murders from non muslims yes .
do you think an holocaust denier would be allowed this kind of opportunity on the bbc , in some parts of europe its a criminal act.
clearly muslims are the scapegoats for our failures in the same way jewish people (et al) were made to be the scapegoats for latter day fascists.
what is shocking is the complacency of organisations such as the bbc.
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I don't have a problem with holocaust deniers or members of the BNP or in fact anybody given the organ of publicity providing they don't incite violence.
The problem here is that if you insult a Christian (and remeber i am an atheist) he takes it and carries on. If you insult a muslim he starts a 'Jihad'. does he think the insult will destroy his faith?
Most extremists who are allowed publicity generally turn the audience against thier views because MOST people (Jews, Muslims, Christians, Atheists et al) are peaceful.
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will the prime minister be reading out a list of the innocent afghans that have been killed too?
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I missed all but the last few mins and wanted to hear this program, anyone know if if it can be downloaded? The callers I did hear all seemed to be muslims and as usual all seemed to be in denial. I heard the guy offer him to come to a muslim conference to discuss his views and they would arrange this, thinking of Rushdie onwards to the dutch filmaker who was shot and had his throat cut in broaddaylight and the London suicide bombers I think its a realistic question to ask, if it was you, would you go? I most certainly would not.
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Come on, this has nothing to do with the film or Mr Wilders. This is about Muslims refusing to accept any criticism about their religion and holy books.
Whatever 'moderate' muslims may say, there are particularly nasty passages in the Koran that are totally inconsistent with a civilised society. There are equally obhorrent passages in the Old Testament as well. There are those, the Taliban, in particular who take the literal word of the Koran and and try and force it on others. This is the real conversation to be had!
For record, I am not aware that Mr Wilders has advocated killing anyone. He has expressed an opinion about a holy book. I don't necessary agree with him but he's entitled to express a view.
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"You don't half go on wendymann"
one has to make a stand against bigotry.
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"I was more offended by the outrageous treatment the troops had in Luton."
but not by the illegality of the war or the thousands of dead afghans?
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"Wendy - you have been spouting your anti-semitism for many years on the BBC Boards - it was boring then and it's boring now."
evidence this allegation or retract.
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Listening to Broon droning on (and on and on) is making me lose the will to live..
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"I have a real problem with a religion that is anti-gay, anti-adultery but pro-violence against the offenders."
"Or a religion that stones people who have been raped. "
been reading the sun again have we?
understand the religion, understand the facts, then relate that to how people behave or claim to have behaved. is it islamic or is it cultural - traditional.
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"I don't have a problem with holocaust deniers or members of the BNP or in fact anybody given the organ of publicity providing they don't incite violence."
somehow i didnt think you would.
"The problem here is that if you insult a Christian (and remeber i am an atheist) he takes it and carries on. If you insult a muslim he starts a 'Jihad'. does he think the insult will destroy his faith?"
this is nonsensical of course, but it explains your ignorance.
"Most extremists who are allowed publicity generally turn the audience against thier views because MOST people (Jews, Muslims, Christians, Atheists et al) are peaceful."
we live in a political environment that has served extremists be they neo cons or the likes of wilders. the difficulty for a person such as yourself is that since you might sit to the right you consider it to be centrist and reasonable.
we are encouraged to embrace some extremists and hate others.
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I don't read the sun thanks. You assume too much. It's Islamic and it's traditional, they are not mutually exclusive. How can we understand a religion when there are too many in your own community who can even decide what the 'rules' are?
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The big problem here is that as long as people of whatever religion or faith, believe in stories written in books like the bible, quran and talmad which claim that a supreme being controls and commands the lives of everything on earth we're always going to have a problem with extremists of whatever hue. Someone once said that "if god was proven not to exist, then man would have the neccessaty to invent him." The sooner that everyone gets over their insecurities and understands that not only is their god no more relevent than anyone elses, but that there is actually no such supreme being in existance, then the sooner we can all live together in some sort of harmony.
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"I heard the guy offer him to come to a muslim conference to discuss his views and they would arrange this, thinking of Rushdie onwards to the dutch filmaker who was shot and had his throat cut in broaddaylight and the London suicide bombers I think its a realistic question to ask, if it was you, would you go? I most certainly would not."
you clearly have not understood the political motivations of rushdie or the rushdie affair as a whole.
he was asked really to debate with scholars, informed people as opposed to people such as yourself. of course he would not debate on that platform since he would be shown for what he really is.
presstv recently had representatives of the edl and bnp, tariq ranadhan took them apart piece by piece . that is the difference between wilders being on vickys show, and one where these people are properly scrutinised and tackled from an intellecutal, informed platform.
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"This is about Muslims refusing to accept any criticism about their religion and holy books."
criticism or abuse?
"there are particularly nasty passages in the Koran that are totally inconsistent with a civilised society"
and you became a scholar .. when?
"There are those, the Taliban, in particular who take the literal word of the Koran and and try and force it on others."
so when did you last speak to a member of the taliban?
"I am not aware that Mr Wilders has advocated killing anyone"
incitement does not require overt cry to kill.
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You obviously didn't listen to what was being said wendy, but then most of us posters know that you are an intolerant, anti-western and bigoted individual who really is so blinkered that you are incapable of rational debate. Either that or you are a WUM.
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" You obviously didn't listen to what was being said wendy,"
i heard, understood etc. as for intolerant .. just read the posts that are supporting wilders. please forgive me if i choose not to take lessons from you.
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Please yourself Wendy - you will anyway.
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oh dear brown tells another unevidenced claim (otherwise known as a lie) - three quarters of threat emanate from pakistan.
radio4 had a discussion recently which largely debunked this nonsense of the war in afghansitan is to prevent terrorism here in the uk. dont know why this deceit is being allowed to go unchallenged from the prime minister et al.
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Wendy
You really do have a very one-sided view.
Would it help if I quoted the relevant passages from the Koran (and the Bible for that matter) that I was referring to?
I am not clear what your point is about the Taliban? They have a very particular (literal) view of the Koran and how it should be observed. I don't think that is any big secret.
You are in danger of exbiting those same traits that I was trying to highlight i.e. intolerance, an inability to see anyone else's point of view.
I am not defending Mr Wilder's views just his right to express them. Some will agree with him, some will not. Those who don't, make your case and move on.
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""The problem here is that if you insult a Christian (and remeber i am an atheist) he takes it and carries on. If you insult a muslim he starts a 'Jihad'. does he think the insult will destroy his faith?"
this is nonsensical of course, but it explains your ignorance."
Why is this nonsensical - you continually rail against different opinionns without giving any reasonable argument.
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Wendymann said
"you clearly have not understood the political motivations of rushdie or the rushdie affair as a whole.
he was asked really to debate with scholars, informed people as opposed to people such as yourself. of course he would not debate on that platform since he would be shown for what he really is."
I for one do not know Mr Rushie's politics and I don't begin to understand his writings. But you cannot threaten to kill someone because you don't like what he says.
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Wendymann,you are so superior to the rest of us poor mortals it's obvious you have all the answers to all the worlds problems why don't you come out from behind your shield of anonimity on the internet and stand for parliament to prove your arguaments in the real public forum of this democratic country?
Oh,sorry,I was forgetting,we are mearly 'unbelievers' and therefore deserve only your contempt! Good thing you live in a democratic country otherwise you would be dragged to a suitably public place and stoned to death!
Oh,one more thing.
What exactly is YOUR experience of the world and all it's magnificent differences????
Personally I have been travelling around the world for around 30years now and have many friends in many countries of many religions including friends in Pakistan,Iran and Kashmir(and YES,I have visited these countries and yes I have LIVED among the residents of these countries)and I have to say that compared to my Muslim friends you sound like you live in a country that supports freedom of speech as a convenience so you can come on message boards and spout your own peculiar brand of religious intolerance.
You are a pathetic apologist for people who have no intention of allowing people freedom of speech or any other freedom.You live in a country that protects you,from your right to your own opinion to your right to free health care and education.The people you are supporting by your arguaments would allow you none of these but as long as they spout anti western/anti christian vitriol they are ok by you?
You really are indicitive of all that is wrong with organised religious intolerance!
It was notable how many callers on this mornings show stared their rants by prefacing it with the comment that islam is peaceful,islam is tolerant,NO IT ISN'T!!!!!
You are just another fool who thinks that a religion is the answer!
You need to get out more my mate,meet some real people with real lives.
You are contemptable.
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"Most extremists who are allowed publicity generally turn the audience against thier views because MOST people (Jews, Muslims, Christians, Atheists et al) are peaceful."
Wasn't it Lord Ahmed who said that he would personally organise "10,000 mulsims" to basically riot in the streets around Westminster and invade Parliament if Wilders entered the building...?
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"In late 2001, the Security Council authorized the United States to overthrow the Taliban government, as an offensive against the terrorist al-Qaeda organization, said to be based in the country. The Council also authorized the US and its NATO allies to set up the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) to provide military support for a newly-established pro-Western government (the United States also continued to run a separate anti-terrorist military operation)."
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security-council/index-of-countries-on-the-security-council-agenda/afghanistan.html
But, apparently from reading a certain comment above, the expedition to Afghanistan is nonetheless illegal.
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"the political motivations of rushdie "
What? To write a work of FICTION and derive an income from it? Perhaps we should send the bill for his police protection to the self-agrandising "man of peace" that laid down the original fatwa, and arrest him for issuing threats if we ever have the misfortune to have to bear his company within our borders?
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"You obviously didn't listen to what was being said wendy, but then most of us posters know that you are an intolerant, anti-western and bigoted individual who really is so blinkered that you are incapable of rational debate."
And there, by the grace of God (which I don't believe in), go I!
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BBC 5L excelled themselves in this discussion today by making it so one-sided it was pitiful. Many callers, mainly Muslims, telling us how peaceful and wonderful Islam is with the usual Muslim misogynist thrown in for good measure. (he calls every talk show going and spouts the same ill-informed rhetoric).
Victoria, if you are to have a debate, then why, before midday did you have 7 Muslim callers, debating against 1 Dutch politician with different views. BBC balance? To be told that Islam is a wonderful, peaceful religion, time and time again by zealots on your programme, will do little to ease the vile hostility that Islam projects against women by insecure men.
Wendyman: Just to clear up a point you made about Jews not being a race - you are right, they are like many other peoples - a Nationality.
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Victoria's programme was pretty much disgraceful this morning.
A totally balanced argument could not be further from the truth.
The BBC,Victoria and her production team still appear still to having trouble understanding what being impartial actually means.
I may not agree with all this guy spouts but I reserve the right to hear what he has to say.
Are you tellling me that there were not more callers agreeing with some of his views but were never put on air ?
It all seemed wonderfully biased in favour of muslims having their say at the expense of others.
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Since Afganistan was mentioned earlier in this blog I thought it was worth mentioning the emptyness of Browns latest pronouncement on the issue. So, sending a quarter of the troops General Dannatt said he needed but with the caveats that other NATO countries must send more, the ANA must front up more manpower and only if our troops have the right equipment. I guess that would be a big, fat "no troops," then. Brown takes us for mugs more and more each day. In any case, I thought ensuring that troops were properly equipped was his governments job? Nice to hear he's finally admitted they haven't the proper equipment, however.
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so wilders claims he is acting through the democratic process (i note that this is the soundbite that 5live chose to play rather than his more contentious rhetoric and deceits) but no mention of the democratic rights of those that will be denied because of his intolerance. it is the human right of one and all to be able to practice their faith with freedom and security, this is what wilders wishes to deny muslims.
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I regularly "thank God" that I am not religous!!
It never ceases to amaze me that people can believe all that is written in religous books, word for word.
Books that were written hundreds of years later, that have been translated several times are the absolute truth?
If something happens in our village- a week later there will be at least half a dozen versions of what actually happened and none of them will be word perfect!!
We live in a wonderful world, this Earth has given us all we need to live a wonderful life.It's a real shame that we can't live in Peace to enjoy it..........
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"Would it help if I quoted the relevant passages from the Koran (and the Bible for that matter) that I was referring to?"
no it wouldnt help unless you are some sort of scholar and expert that can refer to all of the cross references , context etc. if you are able to and that would be a long post i suspect then do so. please reference your sources.
"I am not clear what your point is about the Taliban? They have a very particular (literal) view of the Koran and how it should be observed. I don't think that is any big secret."
actually you dont know what the taliban as a whole stand for or what their religious stance is, what you do have is a perception that has been created for you by governments and media.
it was not the taliban who were / are involved in any international terrorism. they acted against the more intolerant and brutal northern alliance (we now support this corrupt and brutal group of people).
the taliban offered to act as intermediaries if the usa/uk could prove bin ladens involvement in 9/11. the usa couldnt, the uk couldnt. they also happened not to agree to a pipeline deal from Unocol , karzai was an executive of that corp) that was to run from turkmenistan to karachi. karzai has facilitated that pipeline and that is what we are securing in afghansitan at this moment. we will intervene into paksitan since we need their sea port of gwadar (baluchistan) and their border that is with china.
"I am not defending Mr Wilder's views just his right to express them. Some will agree with him, some will not. Those who don't, make your case and move on."
everyone has a right to express a view, but everyone has to do so within the confines of the law. wilders deceits are an incitement to religious hatred. if he repeated his mantra except towards judaism do you really sincerely believe that he would be allowed to do so with such ease?
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"Why is this nonsensical - you continually rail against different opinionns without giving any reasonable argument."
its nonsense since if you go to the usa for eg, get beside some of those evangelical hard core christans and insult their religion they will not let it pass by. similarly muslims dont claim jihad as a majority because they understand the meaning and its context. you im afraid dont.
in israel ultra orthodox jews are attacking, killing palestinians (both muslims and chrsitian) because god they claim ordained them that land.
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"I for one do not know Mr Rushie's politics and I don't begin to understand his writings. But you cannot threaten to kill someone because you don't like what he says."
but thats what we in the west have done throughout our history, and continue to do.
there have been reports by a swedish journalist who claims to have uncovered allegations of organ stealing by the israeli defence forces, he now reports that he has had 100 death threats.
the beatles most famously were threatened when they went to the usa, their books, records photos burned on bonfires.
so dont try to claim that these actions are solely in the realm of islam or muslims.
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"It was notable how many callers on this mornings show stared their rants by prefacing it with the comment that islam is peaceful,islam is tolerant,NO IT ISN'T!!!!!"
actually it is as with all religions that is largely the message that they offer.
bush famously stated that iraq was a crusade, and his background in evangelical chrsitian fundamentalists is fairly well documented.
as i recall we went to war because of lies and deceits from our christian god fearing leaders.
it is not the faith itself it is those who seek to pervert and misuse religion. so whilst a person may claim that islam is a peaceful faith since that is its underlying message one should not confuse that with those who do not follow its tenets and act badly. of course this is true for all religions and even those without religion. thrre are people who act in good faith and those that are determined to act badly.
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"In late 2001, the Security Council authorized the United States to overthrow the Taliban government, as an offensive against the terrorist al-Qaeda organization, said to be based in the country. The Council also authorized the US and its NATO allies to set up the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) to provide military support for a newly-established pro-Western government (the United States also continued to run a separate anti-terrorist military operation)."
of course one might want the actuality:
"After the 9/11 attacks, the council passed two resolutions, neither of which authorized the use of military force in Afghanistan. Resolutions 1368 and 1373 condemned the Sept. 11 attacks and ordered the freezing of assets; the criminalizing of terrorist activity; the prevention of the commission of and support for terrorist attacks; and the taking of necessary steps to prevent the commission of terrorist activity, including the sharing of information. In addition, it urged ratification and enforcement of the international conventions against terrorism.
The invasion of Afghanistan was not legitimate self-defense under article 51 of the charter because the attacks on Sept. 11 were criminal attacks, not "armed attacks" by another country.Furthermore, there was not an imminent threat of an armed attack on the United States after Sept. 11, or Bush would not have waited three weeks before initiating his October 2001 bombing campaign. Afghanistan did not attack the United States.The necessity for self-defense must be "instant, overwhelming, leaving no choice of means, and no moment for deliberation." This classic principle of self-defense in international law has been affirmed by the Nuremberg Tribunal and the U.N. General Assembly."
full article : http://www.alternet.org/world/93473/afghanistan:_the_other_illegal_war/
"Marjorie Cohn is a professor at Thomas Jefferson School of Law, president of the National Lawyers Guild, and the U.S. representative to the executive committee of the American Association of Jurists."
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Listen and download music for free
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"What? To write a work of FICTION and derive an income from it? Perhaps we should send the bill for his police protection to the self-agrandising "man of peace" that laid down the original fatwa, and arrest him for issuing threats if we ever have the misfortune to have to bear his company within our borders"
as i said you clearly dont understand the political motivations of rushdie.
as for the fatwa, it should be noted that this was a year after the book was published and after the indian govt had banned the book . the iranian response had more to do with the political environment between the uk and usa and iran rather than rushdie it would appear.
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"Just to clear up a point you made about Jews not being a race - you are right, they are like many other peoples - a Nationality."
nope they are not a nationality. they are people who subscribe to the faith of judaism and thats as far as it goes.
their nationality is obviously dependent upon their birthplace or their chosen place of residence.
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Hello again wendymann,you didn't answer my question as to where your overwhelming knowledge came from?
Have you ever been to 'Palestine'?Do you know any better than any-one else because you have first hand information?
I thinkl not my friend. I think you read exactly the same media rags you are accusing everybody else of getting their political,cultural or traditional ideoligies from.I think you know no more than the average person in the street can possibly know because you have all the pat answers of a coward.
I know your religion my friend: Bigotry.........
Have you ever travelled to any of the places you pretend to know? "have you ever met a taliban?"Have you even been to another muslim country?
I have travelled to.worked in and lived in many muslim countries and even in deepest,darkest,scaaaaaaaaary iran,I never met anybody,thats nobody wendy(I like to think of you as a women,does that annoy you some more?),N.O.B.O.D.Y!
You are a bigotted,shortsighted and don't deserve the space on this forum.
Oh yes,just so you know,I have argued with mullahs in Tehran and Qom,I have argued with Imams in Srinagar and I have argued with my muslim friends all over the world and you my friend represent none of them!
So just to recap,you are a racist bigot witth no constituency but your own ravings!
Have fun mate and for ****s sake
GROW UP!
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\\\\\\ nope they are not a nationality. they are people who subscribe to the faith of judaism and thats as far as it goes. //////
Sorry Wendy but you are wrong. The Jews have (more or less) lived isolated from other peoples for many thousands of years. Ie they have not interbred with other races and are therefore a both a race and a people. This is a fact as stated by the bible, Darwin, Hitler, Stalin and Gamel Abdel Nasser. They are a race same as the Arabs, Aborigines, native Americans and many others.
\\\\\\their nationality is obviously dependent upon their birthplace or their chosen place of residence. / //////
I am sure Israelis will be pleased to hear this. Looks like you are now a Zionist.
However, I don’t know what the above has to do with the general debate. It shows to me how our British politics is being hijacked and turned into an anti Israeli agenda. Every subject is twisted round to be ant-Semitic or/and anti-Israeli. Talk about the bad weather and that’ll be blamed on Hebrew race (yes they are a race).
This is exactly why we need Wilders in our country – thanks for your help
Winston
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"The invasion of Afghanistan was not legitimate self-defense under article 51"
But, then, no-one invaded Afghanistan in the Art.51 sense - the military effort was assistance to the Northern Alliance who were engaged in an established conflict with the Taliban. The subsequent operation was at the invitation of the interim goverment when the assistance effort enabled the NA to defeat the Taliban - and, as already said, UN sanctioned with repeated renewals of the resolutions. And that's before we factor in the whole NATO issue.
Incidentally, I couldn't give a stuff about Rushdies politics - he is entitled to write what the hell he likes within the confines of the law - OUR law - without let, hindrance or death threats.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Where is the blog for this mornings BNP debate please?
The brilliant gay guy that has just spoken has just encapsulated exactly what a large amount of people have been saying for years. MP's from whatever party do not listen, they don't have the guts to tackle immigration and the abuse of the immigration system and that is why the BNP is gaining ground.
It's entirely due to the inaction of the politicians, they are to blame.
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Any chance of the blog being updated to today's subjects (15th October)? I want to make a sarky comment about Beckham's beard. Thank you.
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Agree with you, Zelda (again!) I didn't see your comment until after I'd made mine btw.
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"Where is the blog for this mornings BNP debate please? "
Now now, Zelly - this is the new 5 Live Now service; consequently the latest hot topic won't be available until after the weekend and if it's even vaguely controversial or likely to attract a majority of "off message" posts, it won't appear at all!
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Speaking of the BNP debate, a caller has just Griffins statement is on the BNP website. So, I thought I'd see what the fuss is about. "Server too busy," it says. Well, I guess they're hopping up and down with delight at the extra visits their site's getting as a result of all this free publicity.
Foot. Shoot...?
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"At 10:30pm on 14 Oct 2009, colclimb wrote:"
do you feel better now?
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"The Jews have (more or less) lived isolated from other peoples for many thousands of years. Ie they have not interbred with other races and are therefore a both a race and a people. This is a fact as stated by the bible, Darwin, Hitler, Stalin and Gamel Abdel Nasser. They are a race same as the Arabs, Aborigines, native Americans and many others."
not true. they are not a race separate from all of us who make up the human species. science - genetics does not find any sense of different races in mankind.
"I am sure Israelis will be pleased to hear this."
not all israelis are jewish. and not all jewish people are israeli.
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"MP's from whatever party do not listen, they don't have the guts to tackle immigration and the abuse of the immigration system and that is why the BNP is gaining ground.
It's entirely due to the inaction of the politicians, they are to blame."
its the ignorance and stupidity of people who actually believe that the answer belongs to the bnp that is the problem.
how can any person subscribe to the bnp whilst knowing its leaders are largely criminals, is racist (ref: constitution) and have a leader who said the holocaust was a holohoax.
these are the very people we fought against in ww 2.
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what is the real motivation behind the bbc effectively legitimising a fascistic organisation .
there is no reason for the bnp to be given voice or a platform that suggests that they are part of the mainstream.
first the bbc refused the DEC appeal and it has largely entertained without much journalism hardcore neo cons and now its the extremist right.
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simon darby claims that 'indigenous' people are 'white', clearly that is not true.
voting green or some independent is a protest vote, voting for bnp is a vote for fascism, bigotry , irrational prejudices and lets be honest that is why people vote bnp. it isnt about white working class as if its only white working class that drives the bnp support.
the gay person got it all wrong. fascism wasnt legitimised until now and of course those people have always been unrepresented by the mainstream and for good reason.
now we have mainstream media wanting to mainstream fascistic politics.
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"its the ignorance and stupidity of people who actually believe that the answer belongs to the bnp that is the problem."
Then again, they're not as abig a problem as Choudrey and his mob, who have the same aims - in fact, more insidious aims - but just wrapped up in a different hue.
Whilst we keep getting reports like this:-
http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/134080
then the BNP will continue to increase their vote, if not their membership, by default as a considerable number of us across the social and ethnic specturm have had enough of this rhubarb. Of course, there's a simple solution to this problem - and it's not the UAF, who's principles of silencing views they don't agree with gel very closely with the dictionary definition of fascism, ironically.
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It's funny how Wilders was banned on the grounds of security and public safety yet the likes of Anjem Choudary are free to spout hate-filled, offensive bile and incite people to violence to achieve "sharia law" and to kill unbelievers yet anyone objecting to this threat to safety and security is labelled a racist and a right-wing bigot. Whilst this gross double standard exists and is perpetuated by the authorities no-one should be at all surprised that the BNP vote keeps increasing and the EDL get ever higher adendance at their demonstrations. I for one am sick of this situation.
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"Islam will conquer Europe"
Sign held up by one of the demonstrators at the wilder demonstration. The truth from the muslim world?
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Why did you delete my post - FIVE LIVE just reported the demonstrators banner - I didn't make it up!!!
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Thank you mods!
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""Islam will conquer Europe"
Sign held up by one of the demonstrators at the wilder demonstration."
And they still wonder why ordinary people vote for the likes of Wilders...!!!
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Wendy: "they are not a race separate from all of us who make up the human species. science - genetics does not find any sense of different races in mankind."
Does this mean we're all the same race? The human race? Is the term "racism" therefore a misnomer? In other words,the BNP cannot be "racist" can they ? Please explain for me, I'm confused.
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"I am not an 'expert' on any religion, in fact i am an atheist. i just think Muslims could do themselves a great service by speaking out loudly and continually against all violence in the name of religion."
do you feel the same for the 'crusade' in the mid east and the recently endorsed unhcr gaza war crome report?
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"I have a real problem with a religion that is anti-gay, anti-adultery but pro-violence against the offenders."
judaism? chrsitianity? or just selectively islam?
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"Or a religion that stones people who have been raped."
a religion doesnt stone people, individuals do.
if you knew anything of islam , that is the koran you would know that the greatest act in islam is forgiveness. that islam reiterates that god is the one and only final arbiter - not men or women.
but maybe from a point of view of ignorance your thinking is valid for you.
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"I don't have a problem with holocaust deniers or members of the BNP or in fact anybody given the organ of publicity providing they don't incite violence."
its an incitement of hatred, which leads to the violence or are you unable to make the linkage?
"Then again, they're not as abig a problem as Choudrey and his mob, who have the same aims - in fact, more insidious aims - but just wrapped up in a different hue."
you dont view white fascists as a problem for you is what you actually mean. choudrey i suspect is a minor off stage attention seeker who attracts undesirables and is therefore a valuable asset as far as the intel agencies are concerned.
the express is seeking to incite hatred with some irresponsible banner headlines. and this group again is an extremist - little considered within the mainstream muslim community. its about publicity and incitement.
muslims have had sharia in this country ever since they first came, sharia is merely the way muslims conduct themselves within society in accordance to the tenets of islam. what islam states is that in a non muslim country a muslim should obey the laws of that country and follow their religion as is possible in that country. so acting outside of this these people are acting un islamically . this is exactly the point that you should be making however since your knowledge is so poor you cant and you dont.
"Whilst we keep getting reports like this:-"
dont fret the extremist islamophobic media is on your side - it aims to stoke hatred and violence against muslims.
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"It's funny how Wilders was banned on the grounds of security and public safety yet the likes of Anjem Choudary are free to spout hate-filled, offensive bile and incite people to violence to achieve "sharia law" and to kill unbelievers yet anyone objecting to this threat to safety and security is labelled a racist and a right-wing bigot. Whilst this gross double standard exists and is perpetuated by the authorities no-one should be at all surprised that the BNP vote keeps increasing and the EDL get ever higher adendance at their demonstrations. I for one am sick of this situation."
ok ok we get the message youre a fan of the extremist right as long as its against muslims and islam, despite being wholly ignorant of the faith itself.
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"Sign held up by one of the demonstrators at the wilder demonstration. The truth from the muslim world?"
no its a sign held up by an extremist trying to wind you up.
"And they still wonder why ordinary people vote for the likes of Wilders...!!!"
thats a curious response, from one set of extremists to another. great logic.
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"Does this mean we're all the same race? The human race? Is the term "racism" therefore a misnomer? In other words,the BNP cannot be "racist" can they ? Please explain for me, I'm confused."
yes scientifically (genetics) we are all the one and same race.
however there is another construct of race which is not scientifically based but a valuable tool for bigotry and prejudices. and when individuals or orgs are claimed to be racist what people mean is that these people are bigots, people who hold irrational prejudices and succumb to deceits and lies as if they are facts.
so strictly speaking there is no jewish race, no white race, no english race, but for some these divisions are real despite they being irrational and illogical constructs.
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what the wilders press conference showed was how poorly the media are capable of dealing with issues, that they have no in depth information or that they dont want to ask the difficult questions.
how easily it is for wilders to claim that he doesnt hate muslims just islam without any sensible response from so called journos. how few are able to make the linkage between his rhetoric and that of the fascists in nazi germany .
why do his claims largely go unchallenged as they did in this mornings brief press conference?
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Oh look, it's turned into the world according to wendymann.
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I've given up reading it, Zelly - it's like a stuck record.
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I don't bother either - I see the name and skip the content.
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Freedom of speech Pah!
We have been denied that melting pot of ideas and beacon of human though that were the messageboards.
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96 comments here
Wendy Mann has made 37 of em
you need to rest your typing fingers WM
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Perhaps it makes him/her feel important?
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Zelda
Wendy needs to learn less is more-the more someone goes on the less they have to say
very apt in the case of WM i would suggest
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