Your views on those who go AWOL from the military
What makes a member of the military go AWOL? Today Lance Corporal Joe Glenton from the Royal Logistics Corps faces a hearing over his refusal to return to Afghanistan. This morning at ten we'll talk to a man who went AWOL from the American military. He decided he was opposed to the war in Iraq after he'd served there for 6 months. He's now in hiding in Germany hoping to claim political asylum.
Plus we'll be live at Edgbaston - can England win this test match?
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He is at liberty to refuse to return to Afghanistan but he has to face the consequences. He signed up knowing that he may be sent into action. The ME has been an ongoing field of operation for some time.
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Well Victoria, you certainly have got balance this morning. 2 'refusnik' and a Stop the War rep.
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Zelda
5 live doesnt do balance when it comes to the war in Afghanistan or Iraq-the station has had an anti war anti British-US alliance agenda from day one-and its no surprise this story was the lead after the 8am news bulletin
totally pathetic reporting
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I agree with zeldalicious , very biased set of guests .
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Man quits job. Shock! Where is the melodrama in that?
I do not understand why Britons can be so proud that they have an all-volunteer, professional army, and yet insist that (A.) The Army's employees be treated differently when they incur a highly predictable injury in the course of their work (sorry, "duty")or, (B.) They decide they have had enough and wish to quit to go do something different (perhaps less violent and near a beach ...
Sack them, punish them according to their terms of contract and then be done with it. Don't, however, turn it into yet another melodrama to which one can invite the entire national peanut gallery.
Perhaps Britain needs to bring back conscription. Then, finally, we could find out just how many people really want these wars.
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Being a conscientious objector is one thing, as is having misgivings about the justification of any operation. But signing up for service and then going AWOL is quite different and isn't even necessary. If you return from one of these theatres and you don't want to go back you simply put your letter in to your CO and you'll be a civvy before your unit has to go back Therefore, I find citing conscientious reasons for going AWOL to be a very dubious excuse.
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i have nothing but respect for corporal joe glenton for refuseing to go serve in afghanistan lets not forget the great muhammed ali refused to go to vietnam because he believed it was wrong and how right he was we need more soldiers like that
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Well said those guys. These two deserters are a discrace to their respective services. If you don't like it there are perfectly legitimate ways of leaving the forces.
And as for that stop the war person - his remarks were quite frankly borderline treason.
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what makes me laugh is all these robots calling up the radio station calling joe glenton and the other soldier chicken and cowards do me a favour they have allready fought for there country when they were duped in to going in to the first gulf war but they know there is a clear injustice going on in afghanisatn and iraq so why should they follow political orders from goverments who have there own agenda
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omanip goverments love people like you who are brainwashed with there lies and spin all the propaganda they have been feeding you and others is working a treat pal
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should the army obey first and ask questions later? what about the SAS guards in the concentration camps in Nazi Germany, is that what they should have done? you cant give a life back once its been taken.
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carolinerh spot on i wonder what these robots would say if somebody had come to our country and bombed us and killed inocent women and kids in the process would they still call the invaders heroes and would they have the nerve to call the soldiers who refused to come to britain and bomb us under lies and spin cowards and chickens cos they believed what they were doing to us was wrong i dont think so some how if the boot was on the other foot
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exactly, prison guards in the SAS were eventually prosecuted for 'following orders'.. if soldiers believe they are in an illegal war it should be their right to not get involved and not be prosecuted. we are supposedly living in a democratic society not a dictatorship.
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think im missing something here Jimmy so maybe you can enlighten me
correct me if im wrong but all these "cowards" ringing in i would suggest are not being paid for following a chosen career path of being in her Majestys armed forces so there would be no reason for any of them to have to go and fight
Mr Glenton however is a member of the armed forces so whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation has to go to a situation he may not be comfortable doing. if he doesnt want to do this why choose this career in the first place
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A total and utter coward. A disgrace to Her Majesty's Forces. I only hope that whilst he's hiding in Germany, hoping for political asylum, that his ex-service colleagues catch up with him and give him a good pasting. Civvies with no military experience or knowledge of how the armed forces work have no idea what they're talking about if they think he has a right to make a stand. He doesn't and he knew that when he joined up.
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I would totally agree if the issue was fighting for our country and the safety and protection of British people, but this is a political war which cannot be won and appears to actually be jeopardising the safety of British people abroad and at home (not to mention killing innocent Afghans and naive young soldiers). The government doesn't have the courage to admit the war was a mistake and pull out, but this soldier does. I think this is bravery not cowardice.
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have to laugh at the thought the bbc being anti war .. that claim can only surely come from war-hawks.
international law demands (nuremburg) that it is the duty of any soldier to not follow orders if they believe that those orders are illegal or against international laws/conventions. they can be considered war criminals , and cannot claim that they were only following orders if they do break international law.
the iraq war is most probably illegal (ref: kofi annan et al) . the afghan war similarly is most probably illegal too since the un resolution does not provide for the actions that the uk/usa forces are undertaking at this moment.
as a matter of record the taliban have never involved themselves in international acts of terrorism and the bbc security expert frank gardner is on record as stating that al qaeda are not in afghanistan. uk labour minister (on question time recently) stated that al qaeda had training camps in at least 14 countries .. so the reasoning for uk security just doesnt add up even less when one considers that the ira did not need any al qaeda training camps to kill some 4000 uk citizens.
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"The government doesn't have the courage to admit the war was a mistake and pull out,"
in the thinking of the uk-usa-india-israel the war is not a mistake it is of strategic importance - oil/gas pipelines, access to iran and pakistan and possibility of control of both nations- pakistan is at the crossroads of what the usa-uk want, strategic importance with respect to russia and china.
it is being justified on the nonsensical idea of uk security and some idea of a linkage between taliban and the uk streets which in the coming months will be turned into a war to save uk security in paksitan and the world in iran etc .
what i find interesting/disturbing is that the media are not willing to demand evidence or be critical of the many claims being made by govt and their affiliates, but allow them to pass as fact just as they did with iraq.
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EVERY war and conflict's origins are political. The issue of whether campaigns in Iraq, Afghanistan, the Balkans or in fact anywhere that our forces are deployed are lawful or whether they serve the interests of the British people is not the issue that we are debating. As an ex-servicewoman who has served in Iraq I didn't agree with our governments political rationale for us being there, but having taken "the Queen's shilling" I had a job to do and had to get on with it whether I agreed with it or not. Soldier's have a job to do and there are mechanisims in place that this individual could and should have followed if he wanted to "get out".
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Well said wendymann, I am sure that in ten years time or - like with Iraq - the government will have an 'investigation' into it, behind closed doors, to try and appease people such as yourself! Not that I'm cynical.
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Rumdoodledo. Perhaps Her Majesty's grandchildren should go to the front line then to prevent anymore disgrace being heaped onto the forces. Might help this noble cause more than learning to fly helicopters on a nice safe army base. But I suspect they would probably prefer to just send a load of working class kids across to defend 'our' (who legally owns it ALL?)country.
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..and I think you will find it is the taxpayers shilling and not the Queens.
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Five-Alive, what does the Queen's grandchildren have to do with debating what drives a soldier to go AWOL? I think you might be missing the point.
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does anybody know how many of the politicians kids are takeing part in these ilegal wars in iraq and afghanistan im with five_live on this its the working class and deprived kids who end end up signing there life away to join the army on the front line many of these young kids dont have the life or social skills to be signing up for the army yet because they are at the bottom of the food chain who end up defended the country
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Rumdoodoo. My point is that those with most to gain risk nothing (the stories in the Sun about good old H raring to get onto the front line are, I suspect, not entirely accurate). Whilst those with least to gain (apart from a relatively poor army salary) have most to lose (injury or death). Being put onto the front line may therefore have an AWOL inducing effect.
Why join up then? I think that less affluent people are more likely to take a gamble due to their situation (You dont see the aristocracy down your newsagent frantically buying lottery tickets do you). And the army may seem like a relatively good gamble to some kids with no other prospects. If his working conditions change and the odds become less favourable, perhaps by being put into an unjustified war with more risk, then why should they not be able to express free will and leave. I m sure there a plenty more poor kids to use as bomb fodder.
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Five-Alive, your argument would have a point if soldiers regularly refused to return to their units and then refused to be deployed. However, they don't. 99% of soldiers ( who are enlisted from ALL social backgrounds) go on tour after tour after. They don't want to leave their homes and families and potentially risk their lives but they do it because that's what their job demands and they know that when they join, regardless of their motivation for joining. L/Cpl Glenton hasn't had the balls to do what he should have done which is put his notice in, complete his time and THEN make his point. What DOES add to the already huge stress that soldiers face and contributes to them questioning their joining up in the first place is not having the manpower or equipment to do their jobs safely. And that, my lefty friend, you have our Labour government to thank.
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Rimapoodle. Well if the majority return then what's the problem with letting Mr Glenton walk out. Surely the people still there would prefer to be with people that actually want to be there. If that is what he wants, having weighed up the current situation, then he should be able to go without facing jail or having you and your higher ranking soldier mates tracking him down and giving him a 'pasting'.
Should we give them more equipment to do their jobs safely (you want a safe war?) and shut down a few hospitals and schools? Or raise taxes to gather the necessary funds, my lefty warmongering friend.
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i notice you failed to answer my point Jimmy
these people are being paid to do a job. they have to do things they are uncomfortable with on occasions.
sorry sir but that fact is inescapable
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we train 16 and 17 year olds to be killers, and then send them off to war when they are 18 to be killed.
they are paying the blair govts blood price, whilst blair secures another million or so from his neo con backers.
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archicrooks who said anything about cowards ringing in pal cos it sure wasnt me in terms of signing up for the army you do it in good faith if you think there is a injustice going on ad political leaders have taken decisions to send you in to places under lies and spin you should stand up and say this is not for me im not gonna go kill inocent women and kids and any punishment as a consequence of that is water off a ducks back as a human being what you stand for is far more important than being a robat who is brainwashed by sleazy goverments
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well its a good job every one in the army isnt like you then Jimmy otherwise the British army would be the laughing stock of the world
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what you mean robotic and brainwashed archicrooks thank god for that unlike you i would defend this country not go invade other countries based on lies and spin for oil not my style pal
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check post 14 Jimmy
i didnt offer any comment about whether this conflict was right or wrong
and im not brainwashed thanks very much
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The American absconder should forget Germany and claim in Britain - we rubber stamp anyone and everyone in apparently. Oh, hang on - he's probably white and almost certainly considered affluent and unlikely to be a burden on the tax-payer. Consequently, he'd almost certainly be refused.
Then there's that skewed extradition treaty we have and never put up much of a fight over...
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It's about time members of HMF started to act and think politically rather than being used as political robots in uniform to fight hopeless and illegal military campaigns.
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The Army is utterly responsible for soldiers going awol they just find it very convenient to blame the defenceless squaddie who is easily bullied and labeled as a coward. Everysingle soldier knows about all the lies and disgrace that is allowed in the army but because we´re sworn to secrecy we cannot say anything! Soldiers have no rights,the government finds that very convenient i´m sure. It all comes down to the Blame game,
The British Army wants to put the Blame on the soldiers for going awol but actually ask a soldier any soldier if they found the Army to be what they were told it was and were expecting when they signed up!
There´s this rivalry between officers and soldiers because a lot of officers are bad at training soldiers they have to beast them into respecting them, bully them into submission! If you have the idea that a real man is the guy who bends over and takes it up the ... then i have news for you let´s really hope that these "submissive" soldiers won´t be fighting to defend our country! The Army is a profession not a slavetrade agreement! we´re overworked,under equipped,under trained,under paid,with no acess to a lawyer ,psycologist,or even a transfer after 3 years of asking for one, we get treated like the muppets all day and supposed to be "hard" men ready for battle!
A lot of soldiers who have no family or relatives to look after them are basically harassed constanly by Pansy nco´s who think their so tough.
If you have a problem in the Army don´t ask for help cause you´ll be humiliated for it, and there is no help awaiting. A soldier can´t buy himself out anymore the MOD made sure of that!There is NO exit route( other than use drugs and go awol) no matter what you´re going through or what your situation is! so there is really NO alternative then to kick the bucket and be a man and leave even with the government breathing down your throat and using its almighty strength to make you an example so that other abused soldiers don´t do the same and grow balls. I have stood up for weaker lads in the Army that were pestered by immature NCO´s and i paid the price! so all this talk about soldiers standing up for eachother and looking out for eachother is nonsense try it! Too many double standards our contract being one of them! "you have to this and that and blah blah blah"... but we (the Government) can simply deny everything we promised you when you signed up and there´s nothing you can do about it exept admit you´re a sucker- you´ve been punked! So to all you hypocrites who like to point the finger- think that maybe one day it´ll be your son and you won´t be able to protect him anymore, they can´t keep trained soldiers in the Army by using the right means so they enforce their will by jailing them for having common sense. There are ALWAYS TWO sides to a story and a contract!
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Soldiers are obligated, under the world's highest laws, not to participate in illegal action. The war in Afghanistan is incontrovertibly illegal, therefore, any soldier who participates is breaking the world's highest laws. Let us not forget that these laws are in place to prevent the tragedies of WWII ever happening again. How we wish German soldiers listened to their instinct NOT to kill unjustly. The greatest mistake we can make is to assume that it must be okay, because its our country that is doing the warring. We must support this man.
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If it's ok for the 'highly respected' former Army Chief General Richard Dannatt to reveal he'd been talking to Cameron's Tories for eighteen months before his retirement then surely it's just as permissible for a soldier whose military experiences encouraged him to develop a political mind and to argue it's wrong to fight for what is primarily a Tory illegal ideological war!
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Rumdoodle. So you didn't believe in the political rationale of going into Iraq but you as a serving member of HMF just got on with it because that's what you are paid for. Very easy to say when the mainstream media you heard and read supported the deployment particularly when UK residents arn't going to feel the physical effects of the war.
Hypothetical situation...supposing a genuine left wing government (not New Labour as you alluded it was) was elected and implemented a manifesto commitment to militarily remove USA bases here in the UK in the event of the USA government refusing to do so! If all the service chiefs opposed the policy I'm sure you would.
It's not all black and white. Now you are in civvy street you really should get out of the institutionalised service mentality and stop referring to everyone who thinks in a less robotic fashion as you do as a 'leftie'!
I was a squaddie. Would I be right in thinking you were an officer?
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