Semenya left stranded by storm
When Usain Bolt is no longer the main topic of conversation at the World Championships, you know something dramatic must have happened.
There had been whispers circulating about South African 800m prodigy Caster Semenya ever since she ran a spectacular 1 minute 56.72 seconds in a low-key meet on 26 July.
Not only was it the fastest time in the world this year by more than a second, it meant she had improved her personal best by seven seconds in less than nine months. And, she said afterwards, she could have run even quicker had it not been for a strong wind on the back straight.
For once, the tittle-tattle was not the usual sort about performance-enhancing substances. This was more basic and a whole lot nastier: was the 'she' actually a 'he'?
It wasn't just the rapid time. Semenya has a well-muscled physique. She also has a dusting of facial hair. Mix those three things together and ugly rumours spread like wildfire.
What no-one quite expected was the way the story would suddenly develop with the 800m final just hours away.
Earlier in the week, it had been the stuff of bar-room banter. The favourite quote was from Semenya's coach Michael Seme, who had told reporters: "I can give you the telephone numbers of her room-mates in Berlin. They have already seen her naked in the showers and she has nothing to hide."
Seme also recounted how, when Semenya recently tried to use the women's toilets at a petrol station in Cape Town, the attendants tried to direct her to the gents instead.
"Caster just laughed and asked if they would like her to take off her pants to show them she was a woman," said Seme. "We understand that people will ask questions because she looks like a man. It's a natural reaction and it's only human to be curious."
So far, so amusing - but the atmosphere began to change when Semenya charged through her heat and semi-final in such dominant fashion that she was suddenly the red-hot favourite for gold.
What had been a story known only to athletics aficionados suddenly had legs. Questions started being asked of athletics' ruling body, the IAAF. The jokes started getting more unpleasant. The 'c' word - cheat - rose to the surface.
Cynics recalled the famous case of German high jumper Dora Ratjen, who competed at the Olympics here in Berlin in 1936 but was later revealed to be a chap named Hermann. The comparison was ridiculous - Ratjen was forced to conceal his gender by the Nazi government and had been born and raised a man - and the reaction from the South African team indignant.
'She is a female," insisted general manager Molatelo Malehopo. "We are completely sure about that. We would not have entered her into the female competition if we had any doubts."
Then, with just three hours to go until the final, news broke in Berlin that the IAAF had asked Semenya to take a gender test.
The story fizzed round the Olympiastadion. What did the test involve? When would the results be known? Would Semenya even be allowed to run?
Gradually the prevailing mood shifted. Why was this coming out now? In the case of a doping test, the media are not notified unless both 'A' and 'B' samples have tested positive. Until then there is silence. Yet here a cloud of official suspicion was being allowed to gather before anything had been proved.
That any woman would be confronted with such serious accusation in front of a worldwide audience of millions struck many as callous. That it was an 18-year-old from Limpopo province at her first major senior championships seemed cruel in the extreme.
Semenya was on the warm-up track while inside the gossip flew round the adjacent main stadium. "The timing has caught us out," admitted an IAAF spokesman as the eight finalists were called together.
As Semenya emerged onto the track from the pre-race call-room, the photographers' long lenses swung in unison and locked on her face.
She looked implausibly calm under her neat corn-rows. On the blocks she waited for the television camera to come in close on her and then mimed brushing something from her shoulders. That there were two British girls in the final - Jenny Meadows and Marilyn Okoro, both with a chance of a medal - had almost been forgotten.
As if trying to escape the furore, the South African went off at breakneck speed. Reigning champ Janeth Jepkosgei took over for a few brief seconds on the back straight but was left struggling as the teenager took them through the bell in under 57 seconds, a blistering pace.
While the rest of the field went backwards, Semenya went again. Coming into the final straight she had a lead of five metres. At the line it was two and a half seconds, the biggest margin in World Championship history and another big personal best.
Yet while Jepkosgei and Meadows - a brilliant third - went off for laps of honour, Semenya was ushered away by officials, straight past the hordes of waiting journalists.
At the winner's news conference half an hour later, there was no sign of the teenager. "To protect her," explained a weary IAAF secretary general Pierre Weiss.
For the hundreds of reporters waiting, this was not enough. Where were the tests done? "At a special hospital here and in South Africa." When were they finished? "They are ongoing." Why was this not sorted earlier? Semenya had run the 800m at the Commonwealth Youth Games as long ago as last October, albeit in a vastly slower time. "She was unknown three weeks ago. Nobody could have anticipated this. We are fast, but we are not a lion."
What had Weiss heard so far? "Personally," he said, his moustache drooping even lower than normal, "I have no clue what is going on. I rely on and trust our doctors."
One thing was made clear: if the tests, whenever they do come out, subsequently show that Semenya cannot legally compete as a woman, she will be stripped of her medal and the placings revised.
The trouble is, those results could be weeks away. From all accounts they are also incredibly complicated and open to various interpretations. In the meantime, Semenya will be under media siege. The most private aspect of her life will be the subject of intense public scrutiny.
"Running is just a game to me," she had said after her semi-final win. Not any more.
On Thursday she is due to be awarded her medal. No-one could blame her if she asked for it to be posted to her instead.
I'm Tom Fordyce and I cover cricket, rugby, tennis, athletics and - well, most sports except monkey-tennis. You can also follow me on 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~32~RS~)
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oops! no win-win situation for the IAAF is going to develop here, whatever the result.
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The IAAF will be hoping and praying that their accusations turns to be true, if that however turns not to be the case, whats definate is that some of the IAAF officials will have to go as many issues will be raised from that accusations.
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It's appalling that the fact of this test has been made public, a blatant disregard for her dignity. Heads should roll, regardless of the outcome. Whatever journalist broke the story should be ashamed of themselves.
She's dealing with the situation with remarkably good grace so far.
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Shame it's happening like that! If she is she, what an amazing athletic she is....
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With so many medical specialists involved, I'm wondering about a condition called congenital adrenal hyperplasia with virilisation, untreated. It would explain the need for an endocrinologist and psychologist.
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Her time of 1:55:45 in the final is still nowhere near Kratochvilova's record of 1:53:28. In fact, it is not even in the top ten. I think they should have just allowed her to continue running.
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As a fan of many sports I think this situation is disgraceful and I feel tremendously for this young athlete. When she should be enjoying the most incredible moment of her life she has been forced to hide from the public like some circus show freak. The timing of this announcement was deplorable and the people responsible for its announcement should be ashamed.
I hope there is no case to prove and that this extremely talented athlete continues to set the athletics world alight. For me, her performance is as good as Bolts and I hope in time she will get the credit she deserves rather than sneers and comments under peoples breath and behind her back.
If there is some truth in the accusation, then I still believe that Semenya is innocent in the sense that to her knowledge she has lived the life of a girl because that is what she believes herself to be.
I myself have spent the last 10 years involved in professional sports and have come across many athletes that are androgynous, hopefully this will be the case with Semanya.
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I totally agree with the comments made by Denise Lewis and feel really sorry for the poor girl. What on earth were the IAAF thinking with the timing of this annoucement? And why?? This must be so embarassing as well as humiliating for her.
Furthermore, what about all the masculine East European athletes in years gone by? Where were the IAAF then??
Or is it they just like throwing their weight around with people who can't answer back?
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DouggieLee,
Pompous maybe, but it would explain everything, including Tom's comment "From all accounts they are also incredibly complicated and open to various interpretations". Her cheek swab chromosomes would show 46XX, female, but she would have an excess on male hormones to give her the appearance people are concerned about. It is a very complex condition that would be an explanation
as to why she has been having tests for weeks and why it will take weeks to clarify. I'm not being pompous, I'm just offering a different theory to the two main ones i.e. She's a woman and everyone is cruel, or she's man and she is cheating.
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I agree that it must be awful for poor Caster and no one would want to be in her shoes at this moment but given some of her coach's comments I can't believe this hasn't come up earlier in South Africa.
Given her age and her improvements coming on so recently at the African Junior Champs I hardly think that the IAAF can be blamed for not getting on top of this as this type of case must happens so rarely (and the testing procedure is so lengthy and effectively voluntary). Lets face it, there is no real way to tread carefully around this situation as, from her perspective at the very least, she has done nothing morally wrong and so couldn't be banned from competing.
I truely hope that it turns out not to be a problem and she can move on and use a negative test result to her advantage to stop any future hurtful comments and whispers but I listened to her in an interview a week ago and she both looked and sounded like a young guy and to be honest I was in shock that she was competing as a woman and had to double take that it was the female record she had just broken.
Assuming that she is medically both male and female, she isn't cheating (sorry I had to use the c word) but is a rare medical anomalies, and I really feel for her because I know in her position this would be a living hell.
All the best Caster and I hope everything is cleared up in a couple of weeks but I fear the tests will prove she shouldn't have been running.
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This reminds me of years ago of two Russian "sisters" Irena and Tamara Press who entered in field events and won every contest in site, until the athletic commissions decided that they would introduce gender testing. The "sisters" retired immediately. Photos of the time showed two people who looked like they were professional wrestlers (male)and would scare most guys if they met them in a back alley. Hopefully this young person will be found to be in the correct gender contests.
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To No7 newprinceofwales
As I recall there were plenty of questions around Kratochvilova when she was in her prime.
She took tests and passed them.
In the 80s I believe she and most other female Olympic athletes have had to take gender tests. In fact the tests go back further than modern drug testing in athletics. I think they stopped testing all female athletes in Olympics only in the 90s... now it is case by case...
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No wonder why there will always be wars in this world. There will always be some people who think because of where you are from, you just ain't good enough to do what you are doing.
I am Jamaican, big up Usain, Veronica, Kerron, Shelly-Ann, as much as I am happy that my/the Jamaican athletes are no longer the main topic of discussion about whether or not it is possible for them to do what they are obviously doing: I must say it pains my heart to know that the next victim is Caster Semenya, from my readings, she was cleared in South Africa as a female and to belong to the female sex.
TO my surprise just by following this story there is a distinction between sex and gender. LOL.
Again what we have here is a South African who is clearly outrunning all other women in the 800m and at times in the 1500m. Bet if this was an American, British or French doing what she is doing, there wouldn't be so many question signs, Guess she just ain't good enough to do what she is doing.
Jah Bless
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How dare they invade her privacy like that? Is it not enough that she has ovaries, a vagina and a uterus? Must she be humiliated like this in public? I think the IFFA could have done tests privately and only came out with the results. But to have her go through this in inhuman
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Jarmila Kratochvílová, the 1983 world record holder (153.28!!!) shared a number of characteristics: She came out of nowhere, was no oil painting and had to deal with rumours that were never heard about the more "fragrant" East German athletes of her day - all of whom were subsequently found to be doped.
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"7. At 01:34am on 20 Aug 2009, newprinceOfWales wrote:
Her time of 1:55:45 in the final is still nowhere near Kratochvilova's record of 1:53:28."
Not a good comparison - there were many questions about her gender as well.
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She didn't just show up three weeks ago and start running and breaking, did she? So why wasn't she tested before.
In the interview with the IAAF guy, it seems that they're only testing her because she's improved recently. But if she's a man now (or not a woman), then she's been a man for a lot longer than 9 months and should've been tested when she first started competing as a junior.
Or is it a case that we don't care what you are until you start winning.
Do they only drug test winners? So why only gender test Caster because she's winning?
From what I've read you have to be 100% female to compete as a woman. Now, since they don't test everyone, then it comes down to look. There could well be feminine-looking women who have aren't 100% female because of chromosonal/hormonal issues.
2/3
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Her coach said that she is a woman, enough said.
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I think the IAAF is going to be damned if it does and damned if it doesn't here. I had never even heard Castor Semenya's name until I watched the race on television yesterday evening. When the cameras focused on her my instinctive reaction was to look towards the next athlete because I honestly wasn't sure if I watching the women's final or the men's.
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I can't understand why noone's asking about doping. Being male doesn't mean you can suddently improve your time by 7 seconds, but taking a bunch of anabolic steroids 9 months ago does (as well as coarsening the facial features). Athletics is such a naive sport that they come up with this and miss the point entirely.
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Disgraceful timing of the announcement that Semenya will be tested! Why couldn't they have waited until after the tournament and do it privately? That said, my first reaction when I saw her in the semis was that she was a bloke, but she looks no more manly than Maria Mutola and Christine Ohuruogu and I don't recall their sex being questioned.
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She a teen... that's why no one has heard of her. Anyone thought that maybe hard work in the gym and on the track have given her this physique? In South Africa we have an innocent until proven guilty policy... lets leave it at that. Congrats on an amazing performance by the way!
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The comments made by ERTYCZ are pretty valid. There is and I believe always will be a certain amount of snobbery and prejudice in sports and in particular athletics. 15-20 years ago, when smaller nations (or less developed countries) did well in track and field the more established / successful nations (it seemed) accepted their limited success with a surprised smile, assuming these victories were exceptions and normal service would resume...but never did they imagine the day would come when a small (limited) nation could so easily dominate a sporting event (the sprints). Admittedly some African countries had enjoyed success over long distances, but nobody expected the revolution that has occurred in sprinting.
If Semenya was from the USA, UK, Germany or many other "western nations" I doubt this would have happened in the manner in which it has transpired. I am a brit who has worked in professional sports in the Caribbean for 10 years, and has also lived in South Africa. Its about time many people in the sport and watching it just accept the fact that certain countries are able to produce naturally gifted athletes. Semenya is just an example of this (I hope). There still exists in the sport a certain degree of racial / national prejudices. I do not want to stray away from the topic completely but ERTYCZ says this poor young athlete has been treated in a way which would not have happened if she had been born elsewhere and I completely agree.
I hope her name is cleared and that she has not been too emotionally scarred. If she is legitimate, she promises to be a phenomenal athlete, I hope and pray she is cleared and that she can carry the title of women's 800m champion with pride and without suspicion.
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Umm, the rumours are not going to be quashed if Ms. Semenya continues to pose like Amir Khan?
More seriously, aren't most top athlete 'freaks of nature' (I apologise as that's hardly a flattering term) to some degree, a particular combination of genes that produces someone more suited to a particular event than the average male or female?
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#3. "Whatever journalist broke the story should be ashamed of themselves." Er, the IAAF announced it.
There seems to be a lot of judging going on here. Surely no-one can comment on the situation because no-one knows the true story. Should the IAAF have said anything or not? Difficult, because if it turns that "he" is a "she" and it is proved the IAAF had their suspicions, they would be asked why they didn't do anything about it.
Like someone else said, no-win situation for them.
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"Gradually the prevailing mood shifted. Why was this coming out now? In the case of a doping test, the media are not notified unless both 'A' and 'B' samples have tested positive. Until then there is silence. Yet here a cloud of official suspicion was being allowed to gather before anything had been proved."
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Tom, you mentioned yourself that suspicion had been gathering long before this announcement. It was a sensible move to make this statement, so that anyone with suspicions about her who watched the "race" - more of a procession, really - could know that valid concerns were being investigated, and that ultimately, justice would be done.
You might as well complain about a "cloud of official suspicion" against anyone who wins a medal, seeing that they're all required to give a sample for testing.
The margin of victory, the way she's come from nowhere, and the extremely masculine features all suggest that something funny's going on. I just hope the IAAF do their job properly, without worrying about whether they might upset the poor dear by carrying out appropriate checks.
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What can the IAAF do, you have someone who has improved by nearly 10 seconds within the space of a month, they have to look into it. Unfortunately there have been rumours over the past few days so sooner of later it was going to come out, it is surely better to come from the IAAF than elsewhere.
Also did you notice that when Jenny Meadows was interviewed and asked the question about Caster she did not answer it directly and also said that there are a lot of personal opinions about her but she was following the British Athletics line.
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She may well have Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS), which are genetically male with XY chromosome but externally female organs. She would have been born that way and no fault of her own.
They should not have made the gender tests public. How do we classify people with AIS in sport?
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All those criticising the actual decision to perform the tests are just being PC. The fact is, she looks like a man. We were there in the stadium on Monday night for the 800m first round and my partner turned to me and asked why a man was running. 'She' has a totally male physique and when you add this to the fact that her times have improved so drastically and that she is significantly faster than any other athlete in her field at the moment, the IAAF had no option but to investigate. Even if she is part male (i.e. a hermaphrodite or other genetic condition) then she should still be banned from running in female events. Any male genetics will give her an advantage over a female athlete. Some would argue discrimination, but all that matters is fairness on the track.
By the way, some people have mentioned Kratochvilova in 1983. This is really not a good example as it was highly suspicious at the time and even more so now. Most of the East Europeans in those days (including Kratochvilova's team mate Marita Koch) were on all sorts of drugs and back then many were not detectable. '1983', 'East European' and 'world record still standing' tell you all you need to know about that one.
Also - compulsory gender testing for all female athletes was, I believe, abandoned in 2000.
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Given that gender is defined (or at least was) under separate legal codes, how does the IAAF define gender these days? Surely the only "acid test" is chromosomal. If she has a pair of XXs, however butch she looks she is a lady and everyone should a) apologise and b) get over it.
If she has a Y then she's a bloke; simple as. Why the need for a bunch of endocrinologists etc.?
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@collie21
"Those of you who are outraged, what happens if the test comes back positive and she is a he? Will there still be all the indignation about what he or she is suffering."
I don't think this is the issue - I presume most people here (prob. not all) agree that in this case it is essential to do gender-testing. That is not controversial, after all it was commonly done in the 80s, despite some complaints from athletes. I think the IAAF is 100% right in what they are doing there - and the athlete knows they are doing this. Given her looks, I presume Semenya will have taken the test with a rather resigned shrug as I expect that she views herself as female but she must have been aware that she postures and looks like a boy. But she wouldn't be the first as many posters have pointed out.
What I personally object to, and probably a number of other posters, is the _timing_ of the public announcement. If they had told us a month ago, fine, even after the semi-final I could sort of accept it, but on the day of the final!, just a few hours before they were due to run? That is just very poor handling of the situation whether the tests are positive or negative - it only serves to whip up a media frenzy which is nowhere near required in this situation.
With doping allegations I do not object much to a media frenzy, if you are a cheat then you deserve that the rest of the world knows you are. But with gender testing probably the athlete will not know in advance that they are ineligible for competing and I think it is appropriate to be more careful.
Anyway, I think it is interesting to contrast her time of 1:55:45 with Pamela Jelimo's run last year in Beijing: 1:54:87, or Yelena Soboleva who also run sub 1:55 last year: 1:54:85. Mutola has also run faster, as has Ceplak. Yesterdays run really caught the eye because the rest of the field was so much weaker than Semenya, not because her time was totally outrageous.
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She is dealing with it pretty well. This is a very trying moment for her. Two questions though: How could the IAAF not deal with this before the games, and do you think ASA would blatantly make a fraudulent entry for the Berlin games?
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What is the issue here.... is it that she has some seemingly male features or is that no woman should be running those times at that age?
If testing is not as easy as a visual clarification by doctors then surely every single female athlete should be tested in this manner.
If that is so, how can we be sure that any female athlete does not have hidden (even from themselvs) unnatural male hormones which helps them to perform better in sport.
I myself believe that testing her to that degree is unfair and it must be very humiliating.
Even if she has only female reproductive organs from what I've read she can still be classified as having male characteristics and thus be banned from all future female competition.
That is insane. If that is so then how is she different from the following people
People born and raised at altitude. They develop greater oxygen carrying capacities and therefore are at an advantage to those living at sea level.
It is surprise that the majority of middle-long distance races will be won by Kenyan/Ethiopian atheletes specifically from the highland regions of their nations?
What about Eero Mäntyranta. He was a finnish skiier in the 60s who won 3 cross country skiing gold medals. He was born with a genetic defect which raised his natural levels of EPO to unnatural and arguably unfair levels (taking additional EPO is banned in sport).
In essence if we test girl beyond a basic physical examination we should test every single femal athlete in that manner but also test every single male athlete also for genetic abnormalities which aid their performance.
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What a joke! When Usain Bolt wins the mens 100 metres by a huge margin, he is an icon & a legend. When Caster Semenya wins the womens 800 metres by a huge margin, she is a man!
Perhaps we should test Bolt aswell to check if he is actually a man and not in fact a god!
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BennyBlanco,
are you talking about androgen insensitivity syndrome, also known as testicular feminization syndrome.
This would actually cause her to appear very feminine with a very "sexy" female body. As only female hormones are able to take any effect. She would have testicles somewhere inside her pelvis.
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Andoyo,
If she had androgen insensitivity syndrome she would have to have a partial form. CAH is more likely. I think it's very possible she has an intersexuality condition, given the number of medical specialists involved. And it is true, her medical results should be confidential. It would be a fascinating debate as to where people with these conditions fit in elite sporting competition. As I understand it from a friend who competed in the Olympics, gender in elite sport is determined by your karyotype from something like a cheek swab. So 46XX is female, and 46XY is male by the rules. This doesn't take into account all the hormonal and psychological aspects that determine our true sex, however. It's a very very complex medical issue.
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If she has been known on the circuit for some time, I'm not sure how she could have 'changed gender' during that period.
So it is either someone else, (unlikely) or the answer is needed to the real question....how has she bulked up and improved so much so quickly?...this suggests the need to investigate possible massive steriod use.
She didn't break the world record. Usain Bolt did. Does that mean Bolt needs to be investigated as a woman?
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What a disgrace! Not only is this whole scandal based on sour grapes, but it's racism - pure and simply! Just because a young black woman, who does not quite fit the stereotype of what a woman should look like, performs way better than any of her competitors, she has to suffer such a humiliation - unbelievable. I agree fully, I hope some heads will roll at the IAAF.
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40. At 09:24am on 20 Aug 2009, naddogg wrote:
What a joke! When Usain Bolt wins the mens 100 metres by a huge margin, he is an icon & a legend. When Caster Semenya wins the womens 800 metres by a huge margin, she is a man!
Perhaps we should test Bolt aswell to check if he is actually a man and not in fact a god!
The difference here is that people in the know about Athletics have known about Bolt since he was about 14/15. Also he has now reached the World 200m final in the last 3 attempts (since the age of 18). Regarding Semenya you are talking about someone who has gone from running 2 mins 6/7 secs to 1 hour 55 in a small amount of time.
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It seems someone has to be 100% female to be competed in female competition. I have a feeling all those who are doing extremely well in female races are not 100% female. Physical look can be misleading.
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This is not only in bad taste it is a absolute disgrace. Is this South African kid the first female to look like a man? I can remember many East Germans and Russians who at first glance looked butch, the IAAF should be gratefull that a potential star has come on to the scene and with her times is taking the 800m to another level. Athletics has had to come through doping and cheating storms yet when they have something positive in Semenya they not only seem to be anxious to rubish her performances but also possibly destroy her life.
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"how has she bulked up and improved so much so quickly?"
So you know what she looked like before do you?
Terrible timing by IAAF. They will need to do some seriously grovelling if they are proved wrong. To do this to an 18 year old girl is pretty criminal.
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I'd laugh if Semenya is actually Bolt's brother! ROFL!
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#47 - you don't get it do you. Gender testing was compulsory up to around the year 2000. So although the East Europeans of old looked suspicious, they would have been confirmed as female. What they were doing was using steroids on an industrial level. Even the equally male looking Maria Mutola was around pre-2000 so would have been tested.
And #44 - this is not racism. I wondered when someone would bleat out the usual race card when any black person is accused of anything. She looks like a man, runs like a man and the IAAF are absolutely right to investigate.
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nico_delange
Spot on.
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I just don't get it. In what does she look different from her opponents? They look the same to me. Since when a test is needed to prove the gender of a person. Just look at her naked and if she has something different from male and that look like the female organ she is a female. The remaining is not the business of the IAAF. Hoo! I forgot... she is African and run faster that the others so she must be cheating.
you make me sick
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you can actually bet on the outcome of the gender test. 1/2 woman, 7/4 man. crazy. also one bookmaker paid out on jepkogei as well as semenya as the winner
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"Perhaps we should test Bolt as well to check if he is actually a man and not in fact a god!"
I thought all winners were tested? Any suspicious substances that promote god-like abilities are banned. Why else are they made to pee in a cup.
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I'm afraid that somewhere along the line, people have missed the point.
OK, (s)he runs an incredible race (maybe accounted for by weak opposition). Let's face it, if you or I were trying to hide something as BIG as gender manipulation or even a doping scandal, would we run a race like that? If I was in that position, or her coach, with such accusations and rumours hanging over my head, I would have had a quiet race, or won by a very small margin. As she chose to run the race of her life, she either proves that she has absolutely NOTHING to hide, or is the most stupid athlete to walk this earth!!
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Obviously in any case where there is doubt testing should be carried out and scrutiny is a part of every top athletes life but the manner this has been carried out in has been a disgrace from start to finish. Drug cheats receive benifit of doubt with their chance of a B sample before there name is released, for this to be released about semenya 3 hours before a major final when Mr Weiss admitted they have no real proof is a disgrace, the whole episode stinks from start to finish. Clarity and fairness in every sport is crucial but surely a persons human rights and dignity are paramount and if the law innocent until proven guilty is good enough for most first world democracys then surelyt it should prevail in sport.
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#44 What? You've made YOUR mind up that its racism "pure and simply". I've not seen or heard anyone else play this card. Fact is wouldn't matter what colour he/she was, there is obviously a problem. And sour grapes? From whom?
On the subject of the whole situation, the speed and the manner at which the IAAF has reacted makes me think there is more that they know about this athlete than they are letting on. Just a hunch, but it would make sense...
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Mclarenm23, Olymans,
No I'm not odd, and no I don't mean AIS, but a partial form of that could explain it. There is a group of medical conditions called intersex disorders where a person may be XX or XY but their external appearance does not reflect that for reasons that are specific to each condition. My theory is she has one of these conditions, most likely congenital adrenal hyperplasia as it's the most common. This would mean she could have XX, but androgen steroid tests would be abnormal. By the rules if her chromosomes are XX, she is a female as correctly stated by DERedcoat. As I stated earlier, I am just offering a theory that isn't that the IAAF are cruel, or that she is cheating.
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First time I saw her, I thought it was pretty obvious that something was not right. It seemed to me that at some point in her life, Semenya was or had been a man.
I expect that that is what the test will find.
But given that Semenya is now a woman - where does that leave the IAAF?
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No need for a gender test, (s)he's clearly a bloke. Why not gender test some of the "big girls" currently playing in the Premiership?
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This, and several related articles in the same publication, is the most illuminating stuff I've seen online about this story:
http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=6&click_id=174&art_id=vn20090820065312355C607115
Gives the background of her upbringing, childhood and schooling etc, quoting her Mum, teachers etc. Seems like this is not the first time Caster has had struggles with this issue...
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Dont remeber all this clamour when Fatima Whitbred was winning Stuff!!!
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What is really disturbing is that it sounds as if this whole matter will be settled as a matter of opinion amongst the various experts, so no matter the decision, people will question whether or not they have got it right. This will continue to haunt her for her entire career which is so unfair.
Then there is the nightmare scenario that they rule that she is a male and disqualify her. Two years later she gets pregnant and has a baby which would make her a female by just about everyone's definition.
Will the IAAF reinstate her and compensate her? What confidence could any athlete or the public have in the IAAf processes ever again.
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Clearly a bloke!
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This is a very difficult issue, and is not helped by typical knee jerk reactions of racism. It is not, repeat not, because she is black that she is under investigation. It is also not because she is South African.People who make these comments are themselves being racist, as they should be well aware. The reason she is under investiagation is for the simple and undeniable truth that she looks and sounds like a man. This is always going to be an issue if that person is involved in women's athletics, particularly where she has made massive progress in such a short space of time, which has put her in the spotlight.
Clearly the matter needs to be resolved one way or the other.
However, what is totally unacceptable is for the IAAF to announcee these tests in the way that they did. That was totally disgraceful, and grossly and crueelly disrepectful to the girl. Whatever happened to "innocent until proven guilty" as is the case with drug tests for instance?
Whatever the outcome of the tests she will end up with her reputation totally trashed. At the very least the IAAF should have made sure there was some substance to the rumours before going public with any tests.This is a massive own goal for the IAAF regardles of the outcome of any tests. They are very keen to be seen to stick to procedure when it suits them, but this has been handled abysmally from whatever perspective you look at it.
On a diffferent matter I think you will find that Kratochvilova was not a team mate of Marita Koch (see post 34 above) she was a Czech and Marita Koch was East German. Nevertheless, her world record has always been regarded as tainted, as has Flo Jo's 100 meters world record. Testing back then was nowhere near as thorough as it is now.
Just because they got away with it is no reason to turn a blind eye to situations that arise today.The IAAF needed to take action in view of all the speculation; they just did not need to do it so publicly until such times as they had something concrete to say.If they has held off making any public comment until the results of the tests were known then nobody would have criticised them. As it is criticism of them is clouding the point that should be upfront and central. Is she a man or a woman, as there clearly is some doubt over the issue?
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i dont understant why are some people shocked about her record and are actualy suprised she could have such a record! i thought any athlete thrived to break a record , create a new one or even better be the best in the game. so what's the point in entering such competitions if your not going to bring anything to the table, its a running competition the fastest will win, if it were me id run as fast as i can. and i bliv that is what that girl did she ran and she shocked most of you and you had to bring her down by questioning her sex!
i say if your partner questioned her looks she should be carefull cos maybe someone next to you also wondered if she really is who she thinks she is.
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This rather interesting and yet disturbing story (because of the young woman's treatment) raises an issue not often brought into the public eye, namely that there is much more to gender than just male/female. There is a whole spectrum in between but such people are so rare that the general populace doesn't even realise they exist.
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#50 yes you are correct they were gender tested and dope tested when the Eastern Europeans were at the top but am i not correct in saying it took maybe more than 20 years before they were caught? You see in those days it was much easier to fool the testers whether it be gender or doping. The IAAF have often said the athletes were always one step ahead. Surely the testing of gender in the Semenya case could have been handled behind closed doors as doping tests are without the intrusion that this girl will now face. Who could blame her whatever the outcome if she walks away from athletics and never runs again.
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There's quite of lot of nonsense on this post.
Testing Bolt for being a god is one which did make me laugh; but true he also wins by large margins, but has been competing at the top level for 5/6 years and is frequently tested to check he's not doing anything naughty.
Others have said how it's a witch hunt, asking how it's different from former East German athletes or Kratochvílová. Whose point are you trying to make? The East Germans were doped and Kratochvílová dropped out when tests became biological.
Racism; really, are you sure? If she was from US/UK, she would have been tested beforehand (regardless of race) - is that racist?
It seems likely Semenya has ostensibly female organs (seemingly sufficient for ASA) and thinks of herself as a woman. She's not trying to cheat.
The IAAF is under an obligation to ensure there is a level playing field, in Semenya's case, this means a biological chromosome test (I know it's more complex than this), rather than merely a drug test.
The IAAF's announcement timing seems poor, but worse would have been preventing her from running and denying her the opportunity to win gold, should she prove to be a woman.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffW5zeuPcds
This is her being interviewed. With that voice, something abnormal is going on.
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Regardless of the outcome of this I think that this has been handled in a completely unprofessional manner. We are talking about an 18 year old having to cope with the whole world scrutinizing them, something which not even the most famous and experienced athletes would be able to just take on the chin! Absolutely ridiculous!
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Cwithers,
yes they would be performance enhancing to a woman, as would excess be to man. Testosterone promoted muscle growth. But my theory is that she has these excessive hormones due to a medical conditon. Google "congenital adrenal hyperplasia".
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It is a shame that the South African athletics Board did not anticipate this beforehand and had the tests all completed before the games to show to the authorites. I feel very much sympathy for this winner. It must be terrible for her to have to cope with this, to have your gender put into question in such a public way. Yes she does look a bit masculine, but so do a lot of the others including Christine Ohuruogu and that Canadian in the 100m hurdles for example. ( I haven't been watching a lot of coverage but I am sure there are lots more). She doesn't look a "feminine" female in the sense like that Bronze winner with the pinky girly-colour sunglasses, whose comment by the way I thought was tactless and seeming to suggest that she thought the winner is a male, but so what! A lot of woman are natuarally tom-boyish and if they then train for years and years and build up muscles then they may look like this (like a lot of the other female athletes too, past as well as present). I hope tests prove that she is a woman and that she can rightly be proud of her gold medal.
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dear Caster
as a man who is extremely proud of what you have done last night, I feel the need to talk to you. You did a tremendous thing - against all odds you came out on top. You answered all these small brained people the best way you can- outrun all, and with this you gained tremendous respect- at least with this european.
I want to ask you one big favour- in fact it is going to turn out in quite a few favours- do not stop running, no matter what happens. The talent you have is unfortunately giving you the responsibility to share it with us. And share you must. There is more friends out there than you think, and if you ever read this blog you shall realise just that.
Run girl run! and keep on running.
from your biggest fan
a Dutchman
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55 - TheMole101:
Running outrageously well does not prove you have nothing to hide. Ben Johnson, 1988 Olympic 100m final.
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Look, let's be honest about this, and stop trying to all be PC hippies....this person clearly looks VERY masculine, both in facial features and in body shape, especially with the muscle mass.
Let us not try and fool ourselves here, all sports have their cheats and this kind of thing HAS indeed happened before, I feel it is perfectly acceptable for the IAAF to ask for these tests, I just feel it should have been done behind closed doors for the persons dignity.
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Whoever complained about #78 needs to get a life. That gave me the biggest laugh of the morning so far.
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I agree with the viewpoint that the IAAF are not giving us the full story. If she is a man living as a woman, she's always been a man living as a woman. How would this alone explain the recent improvement in her performance?
As for her looking like a guy; many female sprinters have similar builds and many, many women have facial hair - only her colouring makes it more noticeable.
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BennyBlanco
I don't think you are odd I just tried to offer another possibility. As stated the diagnosis of such conditions is complex and could potentially be inconclusive with respect to the definitive outcome the authorities would want.
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What @TrojanOtter said!
So many of the posts here seem to be nonsense based on either prejudice or simply a lack of knowledge.
Firstly, if Semenya fails the gender testing it does not mean she is or has been cheating. If she has been brought up as female and thinks of herself as female then she is most definitely not cheating - even if it turns out she isn't eligible to compete. I don't know why people find that difficult to understand.
Secondly, gender testing isn't routine any more in athletics and nor is it obligatory. The IAAF isn't in an unenviable position and had no real choice in the matter, because this only started to be an issue a few weeks ago when Semenya's times improved so suddenly and dramatically. That kind of improvement in performance is highly unusual and therefore suspicions are justified.
The testing as I understand it was carried out prior to the start of the competition and they are waiting for the results, which take quite some time. It would be unjust to ban her from competition without proper testing, so obviously she has been allowed to compete.
Of more concern to me is the lack of critical thinking, surfeit of simplistic thinking and possibly unintentional prejudice shown in some of the responses here to Mr Fordyce's original blog post. How on earth one equates Semnya's case with that of the old East Germany is incomprehensible. Then to say that it was ok for Kratchvilova so it must be alright for Semenya shows an ignorance of history. As for accusations of racism, as levelled by some in South Africa, they fail to provide motivation and are just barmy.
Whatever the outcome of this it's still very sad for all those directly concerned, and very damning for those who seek to cast blame or make capital out of it.
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Sorry, double negative. It should read: "The IAAF is in an unenviable position and had no real choice in the matter..."
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@ 44 -- I was wondering how long it would be before someone resorted to the 'R' word. Is there a version of Godwin's Law that covers this?
Any athlete may be subject at any time to a gender test. It is the publicity given to this test that stinks, rather than the fact that she has been asked to take one.
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Semenya is a girl. She may have male features just like the whole bunch of her competitors who actually dont look like true girls either!
Most of the posts are detailed and focused on how she looks like a man. Me thinks all the other girls competing against her, look ugly too & they also look like men. Obviously you can not expect girls without muscles running very fast! This is not a modlling stage or beauty peagent, where girls with feminine features compete.
There is a touch of racism to all this. When she has been competing in the previous IAAA junior circuits why didn't they test her. The other man looking girls from UK, USA, Germany & other Western countries competing against her are not being tested. Why?
She ran 5 seconds better than her last competition. Is this impossible to achieve? With hard work for a teenage who was working extra hard. How is this different from Bolt recording an impossible time from 9.69 to 9.58 within so short a period before the last WR was set in China.
Some of you who are just posting here might have features of the sex you believe you are, so be considerate. Imagine they have to test you beyond 46XX and 46XY chromosomes, you could also turn to be a chick when you have been thinking you are a bloke throughout your life.
And how will we know that the results will not be biased considering the manner this whole thing is being done? To save embarrasment the IAAA will try to ensure the results are positive, otherwise they will delay the results as much as they can so they dont look bad. If the IAAA was fair they way they behave towards athletes from UK, USA and other Western countries, they would have conducted the investigation in confidence because there is no proof Semenya is a man. Meanwhile the career of a promising athelete is on the line!
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There is a far more serious issue at stake here. If Semenya is thought to have a medical condition and is undergoing medical tests then she should be intitled to confidentiality. The IAAF have certainly breeched this and if I was her I would consider legal action.
As regards chromosomes and genetics - surely Bolt is a genetic "freak" should they ban him as well. Where will it end?
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The majority of women athletes are muscly and masculine. You only had to look at the hurdles line up.
You're either 51% male or 51% female, I would imagine.
Lots of women have facial hair, and all the training brings out the masculine side. Just look at Martina Navratilova. Muscly and masculine, but with a high voice.
People do pick on South Africans-remember Zola Budd.
If this woman wasn't so good they wouldn't give a damn.
They have handled it about as tactlessly as they could, but then sports officials are a pretty crass lot.
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Re 86 - Bolt ran 9.69 but slowed down in last 30 metres, it was obviously this time was in him. Also he has been around for about 8-9 years and has been known that he could do something special for that time. Also her time has improved by 11 seconds since she run in the junior Comps, the IAAF has every right to be suspicious, this has been ongoing for several week now, it is just that it has come out now which is wrong
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#86 I think you find that the UK athlete Jenny Meadows is actually one of the most feminine looking women in the 800m and quite attractive. It's also interesting that she was the one who, when interviewed last night after winning bronze, she implied that the other athletes are suspicious of Semenya, although she was careful not to say anything directly. There are simply no other women out there, except maybe the Chinese shot putter, who look anywhere near as masculine as Semenya.
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I still haven't heard an explanation of why an eight second improvement makes her a man rather than a girl who has rapidly improved. It isn't logical. When I was 17, I improved my half mile time (yes, a long time ago) by ten seconds on the previous year to 1min 52.8 with a couple of other times at 1.53. I was a boy then and as far as I know am still fully male. Is there another reason? Just appearance?
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Surely the real issue here is that the IAAF have forgotten the principle of innocent until proven gulity. By doing this this person is subjected to all sorts of unfounded speculation with no proof.
The IAAF should be ashamed of itself.....
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Surprised to read this news.
You have spent many hours for collection,editing and publishing to us.
Often and often,some controversies on sports persons capacities,doping,cheating and now an issue on gender.
Whatever it may,whether she or he will continue to get some medals to sports lovers,and to fans
Once test results comes out,then,sports authorities will decide their gender
Hereafter,All international events will be conducted by three categories.
1.Male,2.Female and 3.Transgender.
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#36 comments:
"Anyway, I think it is interesting to contrast her time of 1:55:45 with Pamela Jelimo's run last year in Beijing: 1:54:87, or Yelena Soboleva who also run sub 1:55 last year: 1:54:85. Mutola has also run faster, as has Ceplak. Yesterdays run really caught the eye because the rest of the field was so much weaker than Semenya, not because her time was totally outrageous".
Spot on. All sorts and sizes have run faster in recent times.
To my mind there are three details of importance:
(i) The IAAF Director of Communications Nick Davies basically admitted on BBC TV last night that the IAAF had acted in response to whispers in advance of these championships by asking the athlete to undertake what sounds like a raft of invasive medical tests. With a precedent now set, can we expect similar requests of many other athletes - including those from UK, USA or wherever - who don't conform to certain stereotypes of what a woman should look like? Or certainly of every woman who improves their PB by X% in Y period of time? No, didn't think so. That's the #1 reason it stinks.
(ii) The timing of the announcement from the IAAF was, to my mind, wholly designed to put enormous pressure on the athlete and SA Federation to withdraw from yesterdays final. That's #2 reason it stinks.
(iii) As reported in the Times this morning, Rule 113 of the IAAF’s law book says that, “the medical delegate shall have the authority to arrange for the determination of the gender of an athlete should he judge that to be desirable”. Ah yes. Has anyone seen any female IAAF delegates, medical or otherwise, speaking on this matter? Nope? #3 reason it stinks is that it is a predominantly male IAAF bureaucracy that has crassly legitimised the world media questioning of this teenagers most intimate physiological details.
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#52 Pehaps you need to visit Bangkok and do a bit of "night tourism" before using such a simplistic argument. Or are you actually saying that because she comes from South Africa, they don't have plastic surgeons out there, so s/he can't possibly be cheating? Now who's being racist?
#66 I agree with your argument, but with a small but neccessary correction. Drugs testing is not innocent until proven guilty!! Diane Modhal is just a foremost example of a number of sports people whose best chances to be number one can be shattered by 'false positive tests'. Nandrolone is perhaps the foremost example of where eventual rulings are made 'on the basis of probability'. In the interim, that Sportsperson's life is on hold and in some cases it's the effective end of what is at best a short lived and ephemeral career.
I don't think the IAAF have gone about this the right way or at least they haven't been very tactful, but even so valid questions need to be answered.
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Many women athletes don't look very "feminine".
The IAAF should investigate and test if there are any suspicions but the process should be done in private until the results are known. Announcing they are already in the process of tesing just before the final like that was poor judgement and very unfair.
Anyway, why are the tests so complex and time consuming if the criterion used is the simple XX or XY one?
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It will all end in tears mark me words
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Maybe she does need to be tested, who knows?
Im my opinion she looks like a woman who works out a lot and has a face with some masculine features. Not exactly a rarity in Athletics.
Kelly Holmes was a woman who worked out a lot and had a face with some masculine features. Taking the drugs issue out of the equation Marion Jones (when clean as she was at one point wasn't she?) was exactly the same, very masculine. No one was accusing those two of being men.
If Semenya needs to be subjected to these tests then every other Athlete does too??
I would love if this tests came back that she is 100% woman. It would be the best thing and then maybe she could go on to be a clean Athlete and smash the 800 metres WR that was probably set by an unclean Athlete (since wild accusations are the order of the day).
Maybe then she can get the plaudits she deserves, the same ones being handed to Bolt.
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I agree with Fa0019, if a visual verification is not enough, then all female athletes should be subject to the same test. Surely just because a person has features which are not considered "feminine" does not mean that they are not female.
Are we that threatened that someone could improve in such a short timeframe, and run a fantastic race?
She has trained for a significant period of her life to become an athlete, she is muscular and displays masculine features, but many of the top female sportswomen across many disciplines are big. For example in Tennis, the Venus sisters, Mary Pierce and Lyndsey Davenport are all strong muscular women, have these girls ever been tested or questioned in their fields?
To this girl, she sees herself as female, she has physical attribute of a female, who are the IAAF to come along now and question this? And why at this time? The timing is wrong, the approach is wrong and the manner it has been done is wrong.
I hope that the results clear her and she is able to move forward without to many personal scars, particularly if, as the case may be, this opens up more issues for her than the IAAF can deal with...
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BennyBlanco,
could be CAH or AIS condition, or neither (she could be normal what ever that means). I was merely speculating that it might be a re-run of the Maria Patino case. I thought IAAF learnt lessons from that case, but clearly not.
They shouldn't subject this woman to the same sort of indignity Maria Patino went thru. Any tests should have been conducted privately beforehand. If we disqualify people because of their genetics/physiology, then we shouldn't have to do it by humiliating them publicly.
p.s. I don't think she looks like a man. She just has an athletic physique which most people culturally associate with masculinity.
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Cracking quote from Ratjen her, uh, himself -
"For three years I lived the life of a girl. It was most dull."
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The real issue seems to be that while sport excellence often involves individuals who are at the outer limits of the "norm", they still classiffy broadly and "normal". The range of "biologically male but with female characteristics" and similar, fall into a grey zone that has been easy to ignore in the past as these people haven't excelled. Now the IAAF/IOC will have to come up with definiations for what, gender-wise, is permissible to compete as a female (or what will exclude a person). And THAT soudns likeit will open a can of worms!
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#91, well to me Jenny Meadows is slightly good looking when you just focus of the face. But if you go down to other parts of the body, e.g. look at her muscles, you can change your mind and think she is like a man. My point is that the other girls look like men in certain ways. Semenya, if you just focus on her lips and eyes you can think she is definetly a girl, but she is strongly built. So you cant now say she is the only girl who looks like a man. To me the only female athelete I would consider very beautiful & truly feminine is Marion Jones but again you know how her story is (Cheating). Usain Bolt as promised us a 9.4 soon I am sure you going to find another explation saying he has been around longer. For your information Semenya has been around for a very long time since she was 8. It only you dont know her.
Usain Bolt most people did not even know he would beat Asafa Powell last year. Its better to accept that at every big competition new stars are made... So I dont see why people can complain about an 18 yr old. If she won at 16 you would have been saying she is too young and her legs are too long.
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Arsenal Fanatic, Mattibey....and anyone else who is purpling away indignantly about the way this "girl" is being treated - take another look at the photo above and ask yourselves these questions.
Does she really really look like an 18 year old girl?
Is she posing like your typical 18 year old girl might?
Given the way she has chosen to pose for the cameras (among other concerns), is it any wonder there are doubts about her gender being aired? ...and can she have any complaints if such people do so?
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Oh come on, stop being politically correct, of course she should be tested on the basis of her improvement and her appearance - and I very much hope she is cleared. As to whether IAAF should have revealed that she was under test - correct rresponse would have been "We are aware of the gossip and of our responsibility to our sport, and we have no comment to make at this moment" since denial looks complacent and admitting it is unfair to Semenya. But it takes a strong administrator not to say more in the face of baying reporters.
What, by the way, is IAAF's definition of a woman? Obviously XX chromosomes, but do they require more and if so what? Can anyone better informed say more?
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Its a shame that this has to be discussed instead of her exemplary performance. What will happen if she's confirmed to be a she? Will IAAF apologise for exposing her to ridicule?
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The key issue here is surely ensuring a level playing field, as it were for competing athletes where ability and training is key.
Anyone who has seen Semenya's interview post the semi finals on YouTube will have doubts about Semenya's gender. From an admittedly medically untrained eye she appears to me to have a number of physical attributes that would appear to be of male origin.
No one seems to be personally doubting the actual athlete and their intentions but I have serious concerns as to how this will affect womens athletics. If Semenya is subsequently found out to be not feminine enough to be classed as a female athlete the other athletes who will be subsequently promoted will lose out on their Worldwide minute centre stage at the presentation ceremony and will also no doubt lose out earningswise in the near future.
Women's athletics has had a number of problems in the past with performance enhanching drugs, concerns re feminity of athletes amd other things. This is the last thing womens athletics needs.
As a side issue, how many posters can name the athletes that inherited gold medals following Marian Jones's disqualification and subsequent stripping of medals?
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"
There seems to be a lot of judging going on here. Surely no-one can comment on the situation because no-one knows the true story. Should the IAAF have said anything or not? Difficult, because if it turns that "he" is a "she" and it is proved the IAAF had their suspicions, they would be asked why they didn't do anything about it.
Like someone else said, no-win situation for them.
"
No, it's actually pretty easy, and it's not a no-win situation. If the IAAF has suspicions, then carry out tests *in private*. Leave it up to the athlete to decide at which stage or whether she wishes to publicise. The only way we should be hearing about this is if the tests come in positive.
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First thing I said when I saw the rounds was 'that's a bloke'.
Maybe the tests shouldn't have been made public till after, but I bet I wasn't the only one thinking this (obviously not).
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I think she looks like a woman especially in her face. And as for posing she has just won a gold medal and how she poses is neither masculine or feminine just how she wants to and is not relevant to her gender. She does look like a woman who has years of training though so she has masculine (ie. heavy, muscular) features but so do so so many of the other female athletes too. Really bad timing to make her have a gender test and so public too. They must have other information because if you are just going on appearances then you would have to test loads of other female athletes too to be fair.
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Let's assume for a moment that the tests reveal that she does have that strange medical condition with the male chromosomes (or whatever it is). Since she has female organs (THAT test has presumably been done already), and has been raised, and sees herself as a woman, shouldn't she be allowed to compete as a woman anyway? Or does that give her an unfair advantage over the other 100% female athletes? Would she have to be barred from competing as either man or woman for life?
I think that she should be allowed to compete - unless she has done anything to deliberately change or hide her real gender. But it seems the present rules say otherwise, correct me if I'm wrong.
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There were no questions about Mutola. The Aussie crowd on Mauresmo should have been ashamed but of course, she was given no public gender test afterwards. So why does this new star need a public gender test? Should have remained private.
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I understand the scepticism and share it to a small degree but Semenya's improved times shouldn't necessarily set the alarm bells ringing about doping or gender. The term 'coming on leaps and bounds' was coined for a reason. Semenya is 18, so natural physical development is still in effect and that will have an impact on her performance (it's why there are age groupings after all). Physical maturation, combined with increased training, better nutrition and competition suggest plenty to point to naturally attained performance. Whether doping control has been present during this phase of her career (up until now I guess) is something I can't comment on hence the aforementioned small degree of scepticism.
As for the IAAF's handling of the gender 'issue', they have revealed themselves as insensitive, crass buffoons. If I were Semenya's parents I'd be marching along to the IAAF ivory tower in Monte Carlo (says it all) and issuing slaps aplenty. Nothing to do with being PC, it's a disgraceful way to treat an 18 year old kid. If the IAAF claim 'transparency' as their justification then let's hold them to it and have an MP's expenses style expose on the IAAF's senior officials. And the IOC's for the matter. I hope Semenya's gender is 'confirmed' as female and that legal reproach is sought as a result.
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Two comments:
1. How on earth did anyone ever allow Dora Ratjen (see picture on wikipedia) to compete in a women's event? Arnold Schwarzenegger could put a wig on and pull off a more convincing female.
2. Forget being politically correct. Semenya clearly has, if not actual male gender issues, very high testosterone levels. This could result from a variety of medical causes such as a thyroid problem for example. This raises an interesting question: male athletes get banned for having too high a testosterone level as it can help boost muscle production etc, but what if serious hormonal imbalances are naturally occurring? The IAAF might have to adjust its thinking on what is male and what is female. In the interests of the sport and fair competition it would seem best to stick to fairly rigid distinctions between male and female physiology, but that will be of no consolation to innocent competitors who were previously unaware of any sense of unfair advantage.
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If she has ovaries and hasn't been pumped full of steroids since an early age, it's good enough for me.
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"She is a female," insisted general manager Molatelo Malehopo. "We are completely sure about that. We would not have entered her into the female competition if we had any doubts."
Dont see how the above can be the case!
How pathetic does the coach sound? I wonder if SAA used his philosophy to determine the test results!?
"I can give you the telephone numbers of her room-mates in Berlin. They have already seen her naked in the showers and she has nothing to hide."
what fool!
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This is a very difficult and highly emotive issue. I find it hard to believe that the South African federation could have entered this athlete into the women's 800 metres without being as sure as they could be of her gender. That said, given the speculation, the IAAF had no choice but to make some form of public statement on the issue.
Personally, I only saw Semenya for the first time about half an hour before the final. Her very looks make you suspicious. However, we have to wait for the results to come back before we can draw any conclusions on her.
One conclusion I will make, however, is this - the accusations of racism made by some posters are out of order. If there is a problem here, then it needs to be resolved for everyone's good. It doesn't matter what nationality is involved. I remember Amelie Mauresmo facing similar taunts in tennis a few years ago. Was that because she was French? Get a grip!
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This whole discussion is evil but necessary as society (yes, even UK) readily discriminates against transgender, transexuals and other variations on our well-guarded "norms".
Just because she is butch, black and strong she is being persecuted. She cannot win:
- if she is proven to be biologically female she will be accused of doping and being abnormal (read lesbian - dangerous in matschomale dominated RSA)
- if she is proven to be biologically ambiguous she will be blocked from sport as neither male nor female competitions will count (read back to nothing and probably also dangerous to be openly "different" in sex in MatschoMaledominated RSA)
- if she is found to be biologically male her career is over (read everyone will assume cheating) and she will have to live with the personal consequences of having her gender identification forceably overturned by an external body and being left in the dust to deal with it...
all of this in front of a few million prying eyes at the tender age of 18.
She is definately going to loose out.
Why can't we just accept that not everyone is the same?
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IAAF needs to know that they need to be more responsible in management of their affairs. They doesn't exclude how they handle info. This person, only a teenager must be overwhelmed...imagine ... by the whole world's attention. And all this goes to her basics.
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Here is an exceptional athlete : so she is muscular , training does that to you ; s just leave her alone to compete as a woman ;
some women are naturally muscular , if this makes you good athlete you will train harder to succeed and become more muscular - it happens
and anyway , sporting success is at least half mental strength , determination and dedication and those characteristics aren't found in greater amounts in men - they are equal beteen the sexes
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52. At 09:42am on 20 Aug 2009, joetheplumer
Hoo! I forgot... she is African and run faster that the others so she must be cheating.
Maybe you would like to look at the middle - long distance events where Africans do extremely well - Kenya, Ethiopia, Morocco etc. No one says they are cheats, just phenomenal athletes. Take the chip off the shoulder please.
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I think that it right for the IAAf to go public as and when they did. The SAAF was asked to provide tests a while ago and they have not given the results as yet as the tests are "ongoing". The question is why was she not just asked by the SAAF to step down this year, she's only young after all and has many years left to compete if tests proved her to be able to compete.
I think that it is unfair, even if she has been taking steriods or if she has "medical" issues, that she is allowed to compete until the tests have been completed.
On another note, I feel it was completely wrong of the BBC panel to make any comments on this, they should merely have reported the matter and not have made any comments whatsoever. In particular, Denise was wrong to be so vocal. Semenya and the SAAF had been prewarned that she needed testing, and she was fully aware that the IAAF had made the request at least 3 weeks ago, so the BBC team were out of order making such PC comments and being so surprised that it had been aired just before the race. It is the SAAF who should have protected her more, nothing to do with the IAAF, they have a job to do. They should just have taken her out of the games until the tests were completed and results known.
The IAAF had no alternative left other than of course to ban her themselves, which would have been unfair as they had no actual proof.
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I've been told to leave a ladies toilet before now (I have short hair & wear jeans), & had all sorts of accusations made about me, at school, because I took sport very seriously & was competitive. It seems that girls have to be wimps in order to be deemed feminine.
If having genetics, that give you high testosterone levels, is seen as giving an unfair advantage, where do you draw the line? People with large amounts of super fast twitch muscles (such as Afro-Carribeans) have an advantage at sprinting, which is why you never see a white athlete in a major sprint final, but no-one deems it unfair, nor would countenence splitting sports along racial lines.
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#77, SewerSide.
Point taken, but I think you'll find nobody was questioning Ben Johnsons use of drugs BEFORE he ran the race. It was only days later that he was found to have been taking stanozolol.
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This has been an event dominated by females of more masculine features. There use to be an East German lady by the name Haika Dresla (name spelling not sure) and Maria Motola of Mozambique, just to name a few. These are not women I will go running to take out on a date, so what is so special about this girl. A physical inspection is good enough! If she is phenotypically female, regardless of what hormonal composition her body produces, she must be allowed to run as a female. If this test is required of her, then all athletes must be compelled to go through the same scrutiny.
This is the second time this is raising its ugly head. A Cameroonian girl was barred in Nigeria for playing in a championship game involving the two countries. Nigeria, being the host argued the player was male, refusing a physical inspection, but claiming that they did not have the expertise to determine her gender, but went ahead and removed her from the competion. Of course, Nigeria won the match.
Lets keep it simple, when in doubt, do a simple visual inspection, but pay the athlete through their federation a humiliation fee.
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And what if she is a girl?OMG just imagine how she will feel.This could have been done weeks ago,or they could have just sent her to a doctor if they had any doubts.Maria Mutola wasn't exactly very feminine and nobody raised questions about her.If she is a boy than of course the result will change but it all could have been dealt with diferently
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I dont think it helps when the BBC headline is that Semenya to take Gender test, my understanding is that the gender tests are already underway and have been for 3 weeks. Also at least the IAAF have taken the lead and started to either prove or disprove the rumours, if they had not done anything then everyone would be moaning that she was on drugs/was a man etc
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Whether Caster is a male or female, the IAAF gender test is yet to prove. I remain very much doubtful as to why the gender test was not done in her recent participation and only now because of her records. I am sure she must have appeared in the same physical form.
I recommend the IAAF to start implementing gender test in the future before events(so as to get things clearly) to avoid this kind of embarrassment.
Furthermore, why should the test take so long? oooo...fff
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It has been badly handled but the facts are that her performances and features are suspicous and justify a thorough testing process.
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"I want you to call me Loretta"
But seriously, if she has all the bits needed to have babies, she's a girl, and if she has all the other bits needed to produce sperm she's a boy. And if she has been using oestrogen to grow breasts, or steroids to grow other things, or any other hormones or drugs, then she is cheating through doping. Simple.
Any other definitions just make a nonsense of Junior and Senior Athletics Federations.
And the IAAF must know this.
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this is a complete and utter disgrace, athletics should bow their heads in digrace.so she look manly and has a deep voice as someone mentioned if she has physically female organs and genitals this shouldnt not matter she is a woman end of, or introduce this testing for all althletes. Or is this all been caused because of jealousy and the fact this woman runs like the wind and left em for dead. this has to be a case of sexual/racial discrimination if ever there was one and i hope she takes them to cleaners for humiliating her so publicly. the trauma for this poor young woman must be really upsetting for her. the hormone levels in ppl should only matter if caused by drug taking which they all do have randomly drug testing so that is cheating and different.
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Simple, quick test - ask a hundred blokes if they would. If over 90% say 'no' then Bob's your uncle.
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I think its disgraceful what is going on here, whatever happens this is a massive stain on the IAAF's reputation!
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Goodness, a woman has done well at something? She must be a man! Did it not occur to anyone that she could just be a very very good athlete? Whatever the result of the 'gender testing' (which ought to be called SEX testing, there is a difference) she is undergoing, which may or may not show that she is intersex, she is a woman who has as much right to compete as anyone else.
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If after all the tests are done and if the outcome is that Semenya is proven to be female then she would be well within her rights to sue the IAAF for defamation and mental distress or haven't they thought of this.
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I'm a bit appalled by the IAAF's approach here. Surely, in a case involving such a sensitive issue, they could have adopted an 'innocent until proven guilty' stance? Whatever the results of the gender test, the potential psychological damage on such a young athlete by making this so public is more than a little unfair on Semenya, with any negative outcome being something to be dealt with in private and not with the gaping eyes of the world press. Its not as if she's just smashed the world record. Indeed, her winning time, a personal best, did not make her one of the ten fastest female 800m athletes of all time. Indeed, she is still over a second and a half short of the world junior (under 19) record, set by Pamela Jemilo less than a year ago. She is over 14 seconds slower than the male world record holder. The statistics do not suggest that she is exceptional because she is not female. Surely a more justifiable test would be to verify whether or not Usain Bolt is actually an extraterrestial because every time he steps on the track he does things no other human can do?
One can't help but feel that the Semenya gender test is merely a calculated story to draw media attention to the Athletics World Championships at the expense of a poor little defenseless black girl from Africa. If it were otherwise, why aren't the tests being conducted in private until any findings that may affect the result of the 800m final force it to become public knowledge?
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Cheers for all these comments - an excellent debate, and some very interesting points. Semenya is due to have her medal ceremony at 1735 BST, so it'll be interesting what reaction she gets from the Berlin crowd and how she herself reacts. I'll Tweet on in and also put a comment on here in case you're not watching on BBC TV.
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joetheplumer wrote (09:42am)
"Hoo! I forgot... she is African and run faster that the others so she must be cheating.
you make me sick "
-----------------------------
Get real. There's no shortage of elite athletes who are african, either now or in the last 30 years. No-one is complaining about them.
The point is that Semenya looks like a man, sounds like a man when talking, has the physique of a man (not just muscle bulk but bodyshape and carriage) and runs like a man. If no-one had told you that Semenya was a woman, you would assume you were looking at (and listening to) a man.
In such a circumstance the IAAF would of course be expected to investigate. The problem is the way they have handled it. They should have gone out of their way to make this low-profile, and they have failed spectacularly.
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Why do they need to do all these different tests, surely theres only one "thing" that actually matters in this? Gender expert??? erm!!!
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Lets be brutally honest,she looks like a man,walks and runs like a man but with that aside her times have improved so much in such little time that even if shes not a man(hoping) has she taken something that gives her so much bulk for somebody so young.For that reason alone I cannot blame the IAAF for being slightly suspicious.If all falls short and its proved that she is a she and has not taken anything,WOW what an athlete.
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All I want to know is how a gender test can be "complicated"........
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Isn't Soboleva serving a drugs ban at the moment? Hence the sub-1.55 run...
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All female athletes should be tested at the beginning of their careers. That would be the only fair way and would prevent this situation. It seems a bit wrong to pick on people because they don't look feminine enough!
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you have to look at this person and immediately questions are asked...the IAAF are absolutely right - any person with an ounce of brain would question her/his "physique"
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I think that she does look masculine but also very athletic and has well defined muscles. Most elite performers, male and female share that in common as they have trained hard for their particular sport. I feel a lot of the prejudice is that she does not fit a 'feminine' stereotype. If she wore long hair and make-up etc would that stop people saying she looks like a man? Quite possibly. As for her posing, so what if she wants to show off her muscles, does that make her a man? I would show tham off if I had them too. I feel that it is a very humiliating thing to be subjected to for her, even if it was not as public as it now is. Many female athletes have been unfairly in my opinion subjected to negative comments due to the way they look. Navratilova was said to have a mans physique because she worked hard at her all round fitness, diet etc and worked out. Probably some of the comments were also due to prejudice because she is gay, and therefore described by her critics as masculine. The Williams sister are more muscular than Martina ever was but thankfully aren't subjected to the same negative comments. I hope Semenya is cleared of any 'wrong' and is allowed to carry on running and look how shw wants to look. Lets just concentrate on her ability.
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Has anyone else noticed how Tom's comment has coincided with lunch at the Oval?
I agree that this is a fascinating debate that could potentially educate a great deal of people on intersex disorders (which having listened to the IAAF guy talk about how it's not her fault and it's a medical condition, I'm pretty sure she has). These are true medical conditions that small minded people snigger at because it involves genitals, but there is a great debate here. Stracepipe makes a good point: if she is 46XX (genotype female) but has had a lifetime of exposure to higher than normal levels of male steroids, is that an unfair advantage, or an advantage that nature dealt her? I think the latter, in the same way, as Stracepipe says, certain people get faster muscle types, or better heart and lungs.
What is clear is that she identifies as female and always has.
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The large bulge in her shorts is a big indication....also you can see that she is wearing shorts and all the other athletes are wearing the normal attire - i wonder why that is?
Also unless s/he is fed on raw meat there is not that much chance of a woman getting that well built at the age of 18.
The thing that clinches this is that she was much faster than the other athletes / has a big square shaped manly jaw. All this talk about how much of a disgrace the IAAF are - i disagree - i thought it was a man when i watched the race live!
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Women are trained to speak in a girly voice from birth. They are taught to speak much higher than would be 'natural', and use inflections etc that are considered feminine. They are also trained to act and move in certain ways that are considered right for girls, are trained to wear make-up, blablabla. And as you all know, they are made to exfoliate to keep their natural body hair in check. Without that, the streets would be full of women with moustaches and fluffy cheeks. I doubt your average Joe thinks about this much....
The same is true for males, of course - they are trained to be males, there's nothing 'natural' about the way most men act - just accept it, boys don't cry.
Societies (European, Asian, African, all of them) like to keep a gap between what they consider to be masculine and feminine.
You take this cultural coercion away, or mix it up a little, and you get women with body language many men find darn confusing; and women's body and facial hair, that's an area where most men are in complete denial. So watching a butch-looking girl makes a lot of us feel oh so queesy, as it raises uncomfortable questions, even challenges our own identity.
In fact, just take the make-up away from women, and many people - men and women - already get confused.
Just take the make-up away from the Jamaican women sprinters, for example, and the fluttering body language and high-pitched voices any female impersonator can copy, and you get a good-looking bunch of 'blokes'....
Equally, slap a coat of paint on Semanya and teach her how to be girly, and watch the men drool....
When this blows over, I expect the image makers to get hold of her and make a few changes. I hope not, but if she wants to sell some merchandise, it would probably help.
Or maybe the world has moved on enough to let her just be herself....
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I watched this story break on the BBC coverage last night, and I was appalled by the actions of the IAAF. Why is someone who is suspected of drug cheating given more anonymity than this girl?
At the heart of this case is an 18 year old girl, who probably goes through the same anguish about her looks in the same way that any other 18 year old girl the world over does. All of this publicity could have mentally scarred this poor girl for life. What damage has the IAAF done to this girls psyche?
This case should have been handled out of the public eye, and certainly out of the media storm.
All credit to Semenya for going out there last night, and running an incredible race. I sincerely hope she is on the medal podium tonight receiving the medal that is rightfully hers.
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This may be an appropriate Poem for this person.
Aint I a woman?
A found poem from Sojourner Truth's most famous speech, adapted into poetic form by Erlene Stetson.
That man over there say
a woman needs to be helped into carriages
and lifted over ditches
and to have the best place everywhere.
Nobody ever helped me into carriages
or over mud puddles
or gives me a best place. . .
And ain't I a woman?
Look at me
Look at my arm!
I have plowed and planted
and gathered into barns
and no man could head me. . .
And ain't I a woman?
I could work as much
and eat as much as a man--
when I could get to it--
and bear the lash as well
and ain't I a woman?
I have born 13 children
and seen most all sold into slavery
and when I cried out a mother's grief
none but Jesus heard me. . .
and ain't I a woman?
that little man in black there say
a woman can't have as much rights as a man
cause Christ wasn't a woman
Where did your Christ come from?
From God and a woman!
Man had nothing to do with him!
If the first woman God ever made
was strong enough to turn the world
upside down, all alone
together women ought to be able to turn it
rightside up again.
We'll see what happens either way it should have been addressed before it got to this stage.
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To all those posters who can't understand why a gender test can be so complicated please google the following things and do some reading:
intersex disorders
congenital adrenal hyperplasia
ambiguous genitalia
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
The IAAF are within their rights to ask for this test to be done.
Announcing it to the world that these tests are taking place is bang out of order.
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No eighteen year old should be exposed to this type of abuse. Male or female, the person MUST be respected. I personally hope that she prevails. Semenya, my God be with you and keep you strong and safe.
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She is certainly a very masculine looking female . When I heard her interviewed ,if I didnt know otherwise ,I would never have assumed she wasnt a man.
However if some of the other women athletes werent covered in make-up and had feminine hairstyles their physiques alone are very masculine. In reality womens athletic perfomances improve as their physiques become closer to the classical male build. Narrow hips,no bust,broad shoulders, highly muscled and low bodyfat are all classical male features that generally enhance athletic performance.
My guess for her is most likely hormone imbalance , then less likely she is actually a he, then more unlikely from drug abuse. I say drug abuse last because her skeletal structure is so much like a man that she would have had to be abusing them from early in her developemental stage. I look forward to finding out the truth although truth is hardly a ubiquitous thing in track and field nowadays.
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There use to be a certain Florence Griffith Joyner (Flo Jo) who was not different from Semenya and at the Olympics in Seoul She set a new 100m(10.61) and 200m(21.34) World Record that I believe will last forever and nobody ever talked about testing her or that she wasn't 100% female(Rubbish). Look a woman is a woman. How can someone who has a womb be a man? Its impossible whatever your gender tests say. The world is now playing God by saying that someone born a woman with the internal organs associated with females is actually a man.
The only difference between Semenya and Flo Jo is that Flo Jo is from USA.
To 30, If she is your sister I bet you will be mad with people who write the stuff you just wrote. You are in directly saying that she is guilty. Are you saying that IAAF should have announced the gender test before the race? I think that IAAF is daft for doing that and if i am that girl I will sue them whatever the tests say. In a court of law we know who a female is.
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Gender tests can be more complicated than people think. Yes the majority of people in the world, and hence the majority of athletes will be either XX (female) or XY(male). But there are rare conditions such as XXY, XXXY, XYY, that can blur the lines and give the person charicteristics of both genders.
Given that they say the tests won't be concluded for a number of weeks I Assume something must be up, a simple XX/XY test would be fairly quick. but any of the other abnormalities are still not really classified in medicine as either male or female, and the complications are probably due to debate amongst medical professionals as to how she should be classified. In day to day life most people with these conditions choose which gender they wish to be treated as. Obviously however this would become far more complicated in sports.
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Arrrgh it's like Susan Boyle all over again only with a worldwide audience.
Shouldn't have been made public - simple as that isn't it.
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#128 - did you actually read all of the previous posts? Maria Mutola would have had a gender test as this was only stopped for all female athletes in 2000
#134 & 136 - PMSL, brilliant ideas
#152 - I must admit I saw a bit of a bulge too, plus a complete lack of anything "up top". 'She' also bears more than a passing resemblance to Didier Drogba.
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In an addenum to my previous post. by having a mixture of charicteristics, she may well have female physical parts, so anyone seeing her naked would think she was a woman, but if she has XXY or other condition her genes cause her to make male hormones, but female external body parts. she would have a male physique and thus an advantage over her other female competitors.
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x-ray her pelvis and ribs. that'll clear it up in an hour. if not ask her to explain the off side rule. job done
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To ERCYTZ of 20/08
I think you are missing the point - it is not because of her colour and you obviously have a chip on your shoulder regarding your colour.
It solely comes down to how her looks (not colour) are being perceived and that, combined with her outstanding athleticism, has caused suspicion.
This girl is in a no win situation - if her test results come back positive female she has gone through this hell and will be in the history books not for her outstanding achievements but for her looks. What a shame. However confident she appears, she must be hurting. Hopefully a good publicist will take hold of her situation and make her very rich out of it.
If the results are positive male then the hell gets deeper!! She has been brought up as female - and now to be told otherwise. What a shame.
Again, she needs a good, moralistic publicist
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She looks no more like man than Serena and Venus Williams, and I bet they've never been gender tested?
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nico_delange (#44), blueannoyed (#135) -
What idiotic rubbish! What on earth has this got to do with racial discrimination?
There's a massive amount (probably a majority) of No1 track athletes who are black. Are they all being discriminated against by the IAAF too?
The fact she's black has NOTHING to do with this, it's a gender issue.
I do agree that the timing of all this stinks though.
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Come on Semenya...go on to break some records! The rest of the line-up doesn't look very feminine either!
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#162 - Flo Jo is a very eyebrow raising issue based on the fact that her times improved dramatically in 1988 and then retired not long after and then passed away at a young age.
I'm not saying anymore but I'm just putting the above point out there.
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People are writing that if Semenya has male genes or biological make up that she shouldnt compete in a female race... But if this is also mixed with female genetics, should she then, applying the same rule, not be able to compete in female events... Where does this then leave her to compete?? In a special genetic mix up events??? It is hard to judge her, she does look very masculine, but then for me, so did the canadian 110m female hurdler, who i believe won silver... Has she been gender tested for her masculine looking features??
On a seperate point, if the IAAF knew about this and were testing, why release the information minutes away from the final, why not wait untill after the results were known or before the championships with the line 'we are testing, but she is innocent untill we can prove otherwise' that way we could all debate, and accept the decision awaiting the results... It smacks of amateur media management that a very entertaining and fun championship as been tainted in this way. I mean, Usain Bolt came out of obscurity and smashed world records at ease... Celebrating and slowing down before finishing the race. He was celebrated and championed, it happens to a women and there are doubts and ridicule... so, so unfair.
I really hopes she doesnt turn up to accept her gold medal and leave the organisers and IAAF red faced and then also inturn, when/if she is proved to be a women take some form of retribution for ruining her first major title...
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Was nobody suspicious before she won the race!
Also why is she wearing long shorts? Maybe shes hiding something!!
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She looks like a bloke for my money, Why do the tests take so long, it would only take seconds to ask her/him to drop her/his trowsers. If she does turn out to be a him, i feel sorry for the women who came second in the final and was denied a gold medal ceremony.
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Regrettably athletic history is replete with outstanding performances that later were confirmed as drug assisted.
Gender identity has long been tested.
The problem is not so easily rectified if by nature an athlete has a very much larger testosterone capacity naturally.
This occurred with a French squash player who lost a title only to be later cleared by findings that he produced naturally a high level of testorone.
It is highly probable that gender can get tilted towards male although legally female, probably capable of child bearing etc.
There are so many cases where physical make up gives advantages , such as distance runners from Kenya who live in high altitude and have bodies that evolved to cope with that.
There is not a level playing field , not just with the use of doping.
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She does look a bit Drogba-esque in that photo, although given how he carries on who knows which one is hiding something!
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Kratochvilova wasn't East German, she was Czech I think. If she was a woman she was on some proper testosterone tablets and HGH. She had a jaw like them female bodybuilders. It is well known that all former Eastern Bloc female athletes were juiced up through the 70s and 80s, surely along with Flo Jo, that's why the world records from 100m to 800m are all years old.
This situation is different. This is someone who is definitely physically a woman, has been raised as and lives as a woman and has no idea she may be anything other than 100% female. She has no positive tests for any performance enhancing substance, let alone male hormone treatment. If she is ineligible it is by a undiagnosed and unknown medical condition which she and her coaches had no reasonable way of knowing about.
Therefore, the IAAF should have as it's first priority the physical and emotional welfare of the athlete. They have scored a massive own goal here. The integrity of the sport is important. The reputation of the governing body is important, BUT.....if we put these abstract values above the feelings and welfare of any human being then we have defeated the object of sport itself and demeaned the individual and the sport. We have allowed beaurocracy and petty-mindedness to reach in and pollute the joy and the glory of pure physical endeavour.
Whatever the result of the tests, the conduct of the IAAF has been appalling. I hope that this athlete is found to be 100% female, not so she can keep her medal, but so she is not crushed, humiliated and demonised in the full glare of a ravenous and patronising media pack.
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169. At 1:51pm on 20 Aug 2009, Nashwan stole my mints wrote:
She looks no more like man than Serena and Venus Williams, and I bet they've never been gender tested?
.........................................................................
best post yet!
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I believe this one of most embarassing moments a person can have after putting in the effort to attain such marvelous results in the sport.
I think the person ot media starting off such rumors should be sued.
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You achieve something amazing... you must be a man. Ridiculous!
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I feel desperately sorry for this girl. As many people have pointed out, issues of sex and gender are not as cut and dried as man=penis, woman=vagina, and there are several hormonal and chromasomal conditions that may be at work here. While its clear that the IAAF are trying to be sympathetic their handling of this entire situation is absolutely disgusting. By making this public now, rather than awaiting the outcome of any tests, they've exposed Miss Semenya to a grotesque sort of tittle tattle and scrutiny that no young woman should have to be exposed to- regardless of her appearance.
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Can we see some photo's from her earlier career to judge the changes in her physique, presuming there have been ? Even if its proven she has too many male hormones i still feel she should keep her title, she won it fair and square believing she was a woman, along with the South African Athletics authorities, and the IAAF can't be allowed to disqualify her after the event!
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I must say I am really disappointed by the way IAAF handled this situation. This is supposed to be a time when we in South Africa are celebrating such a great achievement, ALAS now we have to deal with this, well we are strong and will overcome. Caster weldone for a job weldone, we back home are so proud of you, you go girl. I think after the results are out and they are eating humble pie you need to sue the IAAF they must pay for this blunder.
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What exactly do the IAAF need to find to make her a woman? Are they looking for chromosomes? Physical features? I'm not sure why they need anything more complicated than one simple exam.
And there are disorders one could have that would make a woman look more masculine. She could just have excess male hormone that gives her some facial hair and masculine looking features. And all of the runners are well-muscled, male or female. It's what you need to run well.
So she looks andryonous...it's the 21st century. Doesn't anyone else think that if she really was male, she would come forward now and not risk the humiliation of having it discovered by multiple doctors?
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I agree with 5. It seems likely that congenital adrenal hyperplasia could be the condition from which caster is suffering.
unfortunately it may not have been diagnosed at birth and subsequently she has grown up unaware that she had the condition. However, it is often the case that sufferers of CAH live as females. If she is proven to have female internal anatomy then she should have her name cleared.
However this is a highly sensitive subject and has been handled appalingly by the IAAF. I really feel for the poor girl. No matter what happens she will have set the world of womens middle distance alight- and fair play to her. Following Maria Matola (not the most female person I have ever seen)and kelly holmes departure this is something that has been desperately needed.
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My take on this:
1. It's too expensive to test all athletes prior to becoming internationals, but it would be reasonable to do the following:
i. Chromosome sex test on all - that's simple.
ii. Natural steroid hormone profiles on all prior to entry into international athletics - testosterone, oestrogen plus a couple of others: that's standard clinical biochemistry and would cost little and reassure almost all.
2. Only in those cases where the hormone levels give any reason to doubt 'normality' (whatever that is), should the full battery of tests be undergone.
But if that were adopted as standard for all e.g. 18 year olds entering international athletics, then thereafter no cases like this would occur at major Championships.
I have to say that attitudes to this sort of thing are usually off the mark. I had the singularly hilarious, if pathetic, experience of being chided by two rather aggressive female career-wimmin of being 'alpha male'. The implication, presumably, being that I was a big male bully? The fact, as I said to a male colleague, that my physiology 'is just about as close to female as is consistent with retaining a Y chromosome' (tall and skinny, little muscle bulk on the upper body, pelvic girdle some women would accept as a means to avoid Caesarean sections) and that one of them was engaged in a no-doubt-to-be-rewarded campaign of emotional intimidation and generalised office bullying merely showed that truth is nowhere when 'competitive pressures' come to the fore...
A sad and avoidable incident which must be rigorously and decisively reviewed and acted upon in the not too distant future.....
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I agree with everyone that this is a really bad situation for her. But i have one question for her and her family. Why did she need a Gender test when she was younger? Could the mum and whoever else raised her tell when changing the nappy? As for the IAAF, they are just a disgrace. I am sure that if they had just told her and her management team (if she has one) then it would not have been as disturbing as it has been with them announcing it as they did.
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What people are not talking about is that it may be time to redefine how we categorize and judge sports. Why do we have a "womens" race and a "mans" race? What constitues one or the other? Does a genetic woman with an extraordinary amount of male hormones in her body belong competing with a woman without those hormones? Perhaps we should have new categories based on the amount of testosterone the athelete has naturally in their body. This would create a level playing field for all the atheletes, both men and women. Sadly this will never happen. I can hear the hue and cry even now.....Oh, the indignity of judging me by my hormones!
We put men and women in separate categories to create a level playing field and to be able to judge the true athletic capabilities of these runners. A female full of testosterone makes me just as wary of their times as I would be of a drug enhanced athelete.
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I am amazed at how many people are experts on gender. I haven't got a clue about hormones and chromosones so won't be adding my two penneth worth on this.
Question marks have been raised and she does have to be tested, but perhaps the handling of the situation by the IAAF leaves a lot to be desired.
http://www.loserscomesecond.com/
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reply to post 167
ACE!!!
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Philman 132,
Sorry, but you aren't quite right. 47XXY is a condition called Klinefelter Syndrome - they are boys, although genitalia can be smaller, and they mostly have subtle features. The other things you mentioned, XXXY and so on are extremely rare, usually cause intellectual impairment and other abnormal features.
The chromosomes you inherit aren't the only things that determine your sex, and they aren't the thing that goes wrong in intersex disorders. In congenital adrenal hyperplasia for example, there is an enzyme defect in the chemical pathway that makes all the steroid hormones (of which there are many). This means a female, 46XX, can have this enzyme defect and her adrenal glands throw out a whole lot of the wrong sort of hormones, like testosterone. This then acts on body parts to make things look more male. The flip side to this is partial androgen insensitivity, where a boy has 46XY, but the receptors on cells don't work as well as they should, so the testosterone doesn't have it's full effect, so they look more "feminine". And there are a whole load of other things that can have these effects too.
And that is why things like this are not a simple case of her dropping her shorts.
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180. At 2:04pm on 20 Aug 2009, mail2joej wrote:
I believe this one of most embarassing moments a person can have after putting in the effort to attain such marvelous results in the sport.
I think the person ot media starting off such rumors should be sued.
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You are of course assuming that there is no foul play or any anomaly with her chromosomes/hormones. Given the history of athletics, that would seem naive to say the least. People are allowed to comment on what they see, and if wrong will no doubt revise their opinions once official test results are released/leaked into the public domain. For now, yes, all one can do is speculate, but it's quite fun. It's not like Semenya will be reading the BBC website. Please chill out.
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Yes the IAAF treated her wrongly by bringing the allogations into light just before she was about to run the 800m final. But surely there is something very wrong if she goes from runing 2:08 in the junior championships and finishing way down the field, to dominating the world championship final and running 1:55 (a time that some men didnt even manage in the 800m heats this morning). I think the IAAF are correct to carry out the test if there is any doubt and I would not be suprised if there is something wrong and she is ultimately stripped of her gold medal.
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THERE IS A NAWFUL LOT OF DRIVEL BEING WRITTEN HERE. SPECULATION MAY BE FUN, BUT NOBODY KNOWS THE TRUTH.WAIT FOR THE TEST-IT COULD END UP IN THE COURTS.
THERE IS A WOMAN WITH A DEEP VOICE WHO USED TO LIVE OPPOSITE ME. VERY MASCULINE-BUT UNDOUBTEDLY A WOMAN.
WHAT ABOUT EFFEMINATE MEN-SHOULD WE TEST THEM AND PERHAPS HAVE RACES FOR THE ANDROGYNOUS?
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The fact is that the IAAF asked for a gender test to be carried out weeks ago when Semenya set a world leading time at a junior event, and the South Africa team have not exactly been forthcoming in getting this test done, hence why the IAAF felt the need to disclose this information.
The timing of the announcement was quite woeful and maybe should have been made public before the championships started, but then what would the media reaction and protests from other nations have been, and Semenya may not have even been allowed to compete.
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Caster Semenya may have medical problemms with her physique. Has anyone in the IAAF consider the psychological impact on or the effect all this insinuation might have on her in the future.
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Hi, Tom, hi, all
I keep reading the article and the comments…It is like everybody has a (good) point.
All I can say now is that this is Athletics. Some things from track and field what we see are clearly VERY INSPIRING!! (Make you want to get out there on the track and just run : )). Some (definitely) raise a suspicion. From the history and nowadays. Breaking world records sometimes is a very delicate issue. The “problem” we all need to realise – and accept – is that the human body is limited. With some things we can go beyond, with others – we just can’t.
It is a real shame when the beauty of the athletics as “the Queen of the Sports” can be overshadowed by any kind of scandals – drugs, enhancement products, very strong anabolic steroids, etc. Yeah, and even the MORE delicate subject of gender.
In this particular case it is better not to comment decisively just now. Though I really hope we know the exact facts one day… (Oh, this applies for some other achievements / performances from the past too! Some of them for me are already lost in the history and I think we will never know what stood behind them).
But I do agree – the manner of this scandal, because it is a scandal already; the way it was broken to the world public, was / is not quite right. On the other hand some said there was no other way for IAAF.
Very TRICKY. Delicate. Even sensible.
PS.
Question to Tom and other brains: What, in your opinion, was the best way IAAF to react to these suspicions? They are the World Athletics Federation. Did they issue an official statement why this reaction is taken then and there – not earlier or after Berlin? How did they justified their reaction / actions? It’s the governing body of World Athletics …
It happened “questionS” at the end : ).
All, please, DO ENJOY the world class athletics these 4 remaining days!
Cheers!
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How uncomfortable did the IAAF guy seem when talking about it on TV last night?! Was cringing watching that!
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sounds like a great story for the media this one. Let's hope they run and run with it. We havent had enough disgrace stories recently in athletics. If not I am sure you guys can run with a story about Newcastle United or something.
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Post 128 You have it very wrong re Heike Drechsler. Mrs Drechsler, nee Daute was in her youth a very attractive woman, and still buy no means unattractive today, who was probably the greatest all round female athlete of her generation (see the IAAF link below detailing her competitive record)
http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/biographies/letter=0/athcode=80762/index.html
It was also her that was most directly affected by the Flo-Jo is she isn't she story at the Seoul Olympics.
With regard to her physical attributes I remember Danny Baker saying on Radio 5 live that watching her jump in the long jump was the best reason he could find for watching women's athletics.
If you click on the Galerie link on her website, it is in German, the pictures tell you all you need to know about her feminity.
http://www.heike-drechsler.com/
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Blindsavant (189) makes an interesting point (and one which those contributors who have taken a high feminist line might like to muse on). Is there not a case for saying that the very notion of "men's" and "women's" sports is innately discriminatory? One could, I suspect, make a very plausible case using the approved feminist jargon that "women's" sports are some kind of partriarchal cospiracy against the sisterhood. Getting rid gender based competition would certainly solve the problem of Olympic bloat and might make space for sports like squash which can't get in at the moment.
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I feel sorry for her. Yes, her. It seems from the reports I've read that she has female genitalia but a rare hormone condition that makes her physically a male apart from that.
But the issue of what she is genetically should be seperate from the main issue: She has lived her life as a woman and to all accounts believes she is one. This isn't just a question of the physical but identity. How fair is it to put a woman into the mens race when she says she is a woman? It's to some extent denying the life she has lived and disqualifying her for something natural would be grossly unfair. We could trim Bolt's legs so he has to make the same number of strides as gay for example? Or tell Michael Phelps he needs to lose a few feet, make his shoe size reduce and shorten the arms a bit?
She says she is a woman and like almost all the best athletes has been given a natural advantage, but she evidently still has put in the training to be able to win. Leave her in peace.
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I agree that thwe IAAF are ina difficult situation.
If they did nothing soembody would still raise the query and complain they hadn't done anything and at least this will clear the situation up one way or the other.
The timing is the issue. The fact is they were trying to d oit quietly. I suspect they heard somebody was about t obreak the story and decided to comment first. There have been rumours about a positive drugs test i nthe men's 100M - not true and other flying around so suspect their hand was forced.
As for does her performance improvement lead to suspicions? Yes it does. It doesn't mean that any are true but does mean possible reasons need to be investigated.Teh IAAF said they have already done a number of doping tests on her and now the gender issue has come up.
yes a number of women can look like men (and men like women) but if you put everything together I think this needs to be done. As I say it will clear it up for her as well, otherwise the rumours and comments will follow her.
It is also clear that the IAAF do NOT believe she has cheated. i.e. that she has deliberately claimed to be something she isn't. There are conditions which might mean she is inter-sex, hermaphrodite as others haev already mentioned.
If the IAAF had left this until after the champs then people would havae said 'If you had suspicions before, why didn't you do soemthing?', especially if the tests showed there was an issue.
I do however feel very sorry for the person concerned. It is not a very pleasant question to be raised for any individual but for it to be done to a global audience must be hugely embarassing for her.
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Haster Be-a-man-ya?
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"Her" time and that (s)he came from nowhere is suspicious. I thought that this gender issue was 20 years behind us. However, South Africa were out of athletics for some time and have resurfaced with mixed results. This is just that - a mixed result. If it can be proved that she has had gender reassignment or similar and with the knowledge of the South African athletics board then I would suggest banning South Africa from all competition. Who wants the world cup there in any case ? Security is a major problem in that country. Frankly Ghana or a West African combination would have been a far better choice.
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#45 just made my day! lol.
I've gotta be honest I don't know much about the sport but after reading alot of the comments I thought it was amazing how controversial the subject is.
I agree with those that say about there being several gender types and definitions that barely anybody knows about or understands (and I'm not pretending I do). What I mean though, are sports going to accomodate for these different genders or are we going to carry on with what has always been easier and merely ignore them and hope they go away. If they are going to test gender to disqualify people, they should have alternate events in which those disqualified can compete - otherwise 1) its discrimination and 2) we would lose some amazing althetes!!
And if they are going to accomodate how do they plan to define the sporting competitions: male, male/female, mostly male, mostly female, female - it won't happen! so just keep it basic with the XX and XY
I really feel for Semenya- hope it all works out though
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mjhsmith wrote: How about showing Semenya a raunchy Girls Aloud video where Cheryl Cole is looking especially hot (can't actually think when she DOESN'T but there you go). I'm sure that within a few seconds we'd soon see a reaction and know the truth.
___________________
Cheryl Cole hot? You must be joking. You can't even see what she looks like under all that paint; and without the moustache she would have if she didn't exfoliate daily.
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Looking at her again I have to say woman or man she is deeply unattractive. Would that looks won medals and they often do !
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@34 - Sorry if somebody already mentioned this but Kratochvilova was Czechoslovak, Koch was East German.
@27 - Your argument is invalidated somewhat by the fact that you have written 'I hope' in brackets!
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Semenya was competing in good faith and is the innocent victim of an almighty cockup. The IAAF should state before the medal ceremony that, whatever the outcome of the gender tests, she will retain her medal
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Eboateng - all the same to me. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder
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I'd say Serena Williams has a more masculine build(if you ignore her tremendous bust) than Semenya, so it's perfectly viable for female athletes to obtain such physical statures.
The difference between the 2 is Serena has quite a pretty face and Semenya looks like Chris Eubank chewing a wasp.
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This is all very interesting but I can't find a single reference in the media to what the IAAF definition of a man or woman is. Presumably any human being is one or the other and the IAAF don't have a 3rd category.
Someone out there please explain how a person that has the outward physical characteristics of a women (eg usual reproductive body parts) is not a women.
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Perhaps we should begin with some facts: Caster Semenya was born a girl (so her sex is female) and she was raised as a girl (so her gender is female). At no stage in her life did she undergo some barbaric surgical operations. This fact is known as a fact to the IAAF. The IAAF spokesman Nick admitted as much. It was disconcerting therefore to read the buffoon Weis saying 'if she is shown not to be female...'. But Semenya can no more be shown not to be female than Usain Bolt can be shown not to be man (i.e. human). She cannot be shown not to be female for the simple reason that she is female. Moreover, the doctors on behalf of the IAAF are not trying to determine whether she is female or not, because they already know that she is female. The doctors are testing for male secondary characteristics in her that might give her advantage over other females. Before saying more about male secondary characteristics, let me say a bit about primary characteristics.
By primary characteristics I mean simply those that pertain to the reproductive organs. The IAAF know that her primary characteristics are female, and are the ones she was born with. They therefore do not suspect her of cheating.
Male secondary characteristics may take one of two forms: (a) they may be biologically determined, or (b) they may be non-biologically determined. Non-biologically determined male secondary characteristics include big muscles on the arms and legs and body. Any female athlete may develop these if she so wishes, and therefore the IAAF do not care about them even though they give these athletes advantage over other athletes who do not have them.
Biologically determined male secondary characteristics can further be classified into two groups:
(i) those that do not give an athlete an advantage over other female athletes, such as looking like a boy/man or growing facial hair. These the IAAF do not care about either.
(ii)those that give an athlete an advantage over other female athletes. These include certain levels of testosterones, and others besides. It is only those male secondary characteristics that are relevant to athletics that the IAAF are concerned with or should be concerned with. Their results are of really limited value, and therefore they shouldnt be called gender determining, as they have no relevance in society or culture.
Needless to say, the determination of these male secondary characteristics is not a science and involves a lot of interpretations. This is made the more difficult by the fact that they have to weed out those characteristics that are relevant to athletics from that are not.
I think it was disgraceful and ignorant of other athletes include Jenny Meadows to treat Caster Semenya like a lepper, when her 'condition' is beyond her control.
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SJDG43 wrote:
"Her" time and that (s)he came from nowhere is suspicious. I thought that this gender issue was 20 years behind us. However, South Africa were out of athletics for some time and have resurfaced with mixed results. This is just that - a mixed result. If it can be proved that she has had gender reassignment or similar and with the knowledge of the South African athletics board then I would suggest banning South Africa from all competition. Who wants the world cup there in any case ? Security is a major problem in that country. Frankly Ghana or a West African combination would have been a far better choice.
What an idiotic comment!
So a girl who grew up with less than nothing has somehow managed to find the cash to undergo gender reassignment therapy.. ok, surely with access to that sort of money, she would have helped to feed her 5 siblings and not have to endure the hardships of growing up without both parents as they had to work far afield.
also, your complete lack of intellect allowed you to turn your comment into a bashing of South Africa and how they are behind the times due to sanctions. Let me remind you that the cricket, rugby and football sides all endured sanctions and they arent too bad are they? let me guess, they must be drug fuelled cheats also as nobody could be as good/ better in most cases than your beloved under-achieving nation. as for the World Cup comments - shut up....
She fully deserves the credit and awards she gets and if she is found out to be a cheat (which I sincerely doubt) then she should receive the punishment deserved (although she has recieved enough punishment already)!
I'm certain that this will all blow over and, although different, Caster Semenya will dominate the 800m and probably the 1500m for years to come.
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One thing that hasn't been mentioned but should be considered with regards her rapid improvement is her age. She's only 18, at a point in her life when she's still developing physically and psychologically. I can certainly remember points when I was a younger 400m runner when I'd make sudden strides forward in my times due to simple development. Is it not possible that this is the case here?
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125 Squirral
'They should just have taken her out of the games until the tests were completed and results known'
The IAAF had no alternative left other than of course to ban her themselves, which would have been unfair as they had no actual proof.
Are you for real? Have you ever heard of the presumption of innocence? you're presumed innocent until proven otherwise. Some of the posts here just do not make much sense.And the race thing I think does not make much sense, being an African black person myself.People should engage their brain cells before making comments.How narrow minded!
I will kindly reserve judgement until science proves otherwise(even though she looks and acts like a man on the face of it-and so did Mutola as many here have mentioned) And yes the whole thing has been handled abysmally. Why now?
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This story reminds m of a documentary I watched about an athlete called Stella Walsh.After learning about her story,its still unclear whether she could be classed as male.female or transgender.Her birth certificate states female.Check out this wiki page,amazing and bizarre story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82awa_Walasiewicz
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# 214 I am sorry but I just read your post and burst out laughing!
# 204 said what I wanted to say only better. She should be classed as a female or a man based on sex at birth or any surgical/medical changes since. I realise that getting to this decision will be complex and checks must be made to see if her body is producing anything that makes her more masculine or if it is drugs. If its drugs ban her and if it isnt she is female.
The IAAF should get hammered for the way they have delt with this. Hammered.
And Marita Koch? C'mon! The clue is in the name there!
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Certainly the IAAF could have handled it better, no need to make it all public before anything has been proved BUT, would like a duck, talk like a duck and all that - the poor 'girl' is so obviously not make of the same stuff as other females and thus makes the race a farce but it isn't her fault and the IAAF should have shut up until they had all the answers.
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Simple chromosome testing was introduced in the 1960s but was pretty much discredited in the 1970s and 80s. (High profile cases included Polish sprinter Eva Klobukowska who was stripped of her 1964 Olympic medals. Ironically, after the "not a woman" determination, she gave birth to a child.) The IAAF abandoned chromosome testing in the early 1990s at the same time putting in place a procedure that "permits intervention and evaluation of individual athletes by appropriate medical personnel if there is any question regarding gender identity." (The IOC continued testing through the 1996 games in Atlanta. 8 female competitors were identified with XY chromosomes - 7 were AIS; one had 5-alpha-steroid reductase deficiency; all were allowed to compete.) In the current situation, the IAAF are following long-standing (although rarely instituted) procedures. Having said that, it is unfortunately true that gender determination from an athletic perspective is both complicated and subjective.
The timing of the "announcement" was terrible although, given the media firestorm that was developing, I find it hard to criticize whoever decided to confirm that the IAAF were actually following their long established procedures.
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The day before all this was released one of the topics on the evening Athletics programme was the amount of bling being worn and basically style over substance. John Inverdale even mentioned the perils of long hair in female sport i.e. that sportswomen can be hindered by making themselves look more feminine. It seemed that the panel came to the conclusion that how someone looks shouldn't matter and that they should be focussed on achieving the best they could in their sport rather than looking their best. Yet now we have a situation that has predominantly come about from how someone looks (yes there is the issue about her improvement but don't all young athletes have an improvement - maybe raising their game to match their opponents? At a recent sports day I attended the winner of the 1500m finished a minute slower than her best, still trounced her opponents, but when asked why she didn't run as fast as she could her answer was "What was the point? I just needed to win.") and the fact that she has seemingly come from nowhere.
I agree with many of the points above, especially those that reiterate Michael Johnson's view of the fact that drug tests are kept secret until confirmed, but some are just ridiculous. Why should the fact that Semenya wore long shorts be suspicious? Cathy Freeman wore a full body suit.
#136 I'm presuming you're male, could we apply the same test to you but asking a 100 women the question? (Don't get me wrong, I find some of the suggestions of alternative tests very amusing but this is someone's life)
And the poster who criticised Jenny Meadow's statement - what would your answer be if you had been asked the question? She is a professional and she answered in the way a professional would answer, especially one where the facts aren't yet known. Did those who were beaten by Ben Johnson state their suspicions in their post race interviews?
I do have a few questions - what is the IAAF criteria for somebody to be classed as female? What does 100% female actually mean and does anybody meet that criteria? Also, whilst understanding that macho tendencies generally triumph in male sport, is there a retrospective gender test for men to see if they are 100% male?
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#218 If the IAAF knew all of this and she is indeed female then I guess they are doing the tests, and making them public, to stop any rumours hanging around for years as happened with other athletes in relation to gender and drugs. If there is a test, and it comes back confirming female then that will be the end of it. Maybe the IAAF know this will be the result but they want to prove to the public and the media so they can go away to the next story? If the IAAF do nothing, then Semenya will have this for the rest of 'her' life. I think they just wanted to nip it in the bud and stop the negative publicity that Semenya and athletics are getting at the moment. It's all about PR (public relations, not political correctness I mean).
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Of course she has a simple solution to proving she is a woman - get pregnant, something a lot of British girls seem to manage at her age.
She could take a year or so out, have the child and come back and win the olympics in 2012.
Be a bit difficult to argue she was not a woman then
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Many females have hair on their face but she ran like a man and her
attitude is one of a man. I hope she is a she but i seriously doubt it.
Are sex changes allowed to run as females???????
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Can she renounce undergoing such a test? All the other athletes didn't have to do it. What is the legal basis for that, rumours? the way she looks? is she the only one looking masculine? No. Therefore, who should be tested next? Why on earth has the IAAF not held this test secretly destroying the private life, reputation, image of this girl forever??? If the test states she's female, is the IAAT going to compensate her for the massive irreversible damage caused to her (possible sponsors, destroyed reputation, current abuse of her all around the world, etc)?
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228,,, if a gynacologist is unable to verify who is a woman then
s/he needs a new vocation
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I just want to congratulate Caster on a superb performance.
I think it is disgraceful the way in which her case has been handled. It must have taken tremendous courage to get on that track and run in front of all of those people who were talking about her.
This should have been the greatest day of her life, instead it will probably have been one of the hardest.
If her test shows that she shouldn't have been competing then justice will be done in the end, but surely it should be a case of innocent until proven guilty. Otherwise a young woman doesn't get the credit she achieves for her effort.
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This story was leaked by an Australian Journalist and as per usual the Australians love taking a dig at saffa's when winning in sports - its dispicable and has caused an uproar in South Africa, where this sort of discrimination and complete disregard for ones dignity is no longer tollerated. Why this could not be kept quiet at least till the tests were completed is just beyond reasoning. I think the Ausie journalist who leaked this should be banned from sports journalism for at least 5years and so should all other media journalists involved. This girl has won a great achievement is an incredible athlete who deserves praise and repect.
Absolutely dispicable journalist they should suffer the consequences and I hope they come out with their tail between their legs hopefully at a very public apology - maybe we can scrutinize how they look!
I am simply disgusted.
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41. At 09:26am on 20 Aug 2009, mclarenm23 wrote:
BennyBlanco,
are you talking about androgen insensitivity syndrome, also known as testicular feminization syndrome.
This would actually cause her to appear very feminine with a very "sexy" female body. As only female hormones are able to take any effect. She would have testicles somewhere inside her pelvis.
-~-
Wasn't this featured in an episode of House (The Medical Programme with Hugh Lawrie)?
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To DarkAvengerDex
I raised that point too (see 115).
The IAAF needs to gender check itself: it's got no sense and no balls, so what does that make it?
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234
Yes it was.
231 and many others
Unfortunately her "physical" sex is not the issue. (Which is why endocrinologists et al are involved.)
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So what if Caster Semenya improved her PB by seven seconds over nine months? Usain Bolt broke the 100m world record after running only his fifth race, and broke the 200m world record despite being comprehensively beaten by Tyson Gay only a year before. Was Bolt accused of cheating at the time? No. When Amelie Mauresmo (a stronger, more physical player) won the Wimbledon ladies singles title in 2006, was she accused of being a man? No. Thankfully, Semenya won because if she had withdrawn or failed last night, the IAAF would have had a lot to answer for in the case of Semenya's gender being verified as a woman.
Believe it or not, the "experts" over at the IAAF are meant to be pretty astute. In reality, they are just as incompetent as those idiots at UEFA.
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i think the people who are saying it are sad, cant someone run a PB anymore without being accused of doping or in this case having a sex change. i think she should sue the people who are saying it because they cant get away with it.
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Why the fuss about Semenya when there is no fuss about Christine Ohuruogu? Both look like blokes, but at least Semenya is handsome.
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I wonder if she was a white woman...if the authorities would ahve reacted the same way.................
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@hiebex: I am an athlete and when I was about Semenya's age it would be normal to knock circa 2 seconds off your time in a season. Granted if the athlete is new to the sport then it could be that they knock a number of seconds off in a season. However this is a young girl who has come out of nowhere and is running world leading times we are not talking about her shifting her PB from 2.50 to 2.35 in a season. The huge change in her times on their own (forgetting the gender debate) would raise a number of suspicions. Athletes work incrediably hard (even Bolt and Johnson) to achieve the times they do. So to have someone arrive on the scene who can run a world leading time with barely a full season behind her (and so young) is going to get people talking. Semenya is not helped by the fact that her winning time is about the timea reasonable 18 year old boy would be running for the 800m at that age. Regardless of how she looks, the original issue would have been the manner in which her times changed so fast. I think its wrong to suggest it is her looks that caused the original issue, the times she was achieving caused the issue which when looked into created the issue of her appearance.
Whatever happens I do feel sorry for Semenya as well as the other 800m athletes (after all shouldn't we be singing the praises of just how strong female British middle distance running is with the large numbers of world class girls we now have (Twell, Meadows, Okoro, Dobriskey, England etc). The media have, as always, not helped the situation one bit. To pin the blame firmly on the IAAF is rather unfair, the media should have been exercising their discretion in reporting this "news story".
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Her physical sex is the issue and this should not be lost in all of this. If she is a woman who naturally produces something that gives her male characteristics then she competes in female comps - end of. What the IAAF cannot do is say sorry you are a woman but.... Not saying anyone on here is suggesting she should be banned in either case.
I am no expert in gender etc. here but I believe morally what the IAAFs boundaries should be.
Does anyone know how difficult it is to differentiate what her body could produce naturally or by way of drug taking?
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Athletics has gone through the drama and trauma of the systematic drug taking during the 70's to the 90's. It wasn't just an eastern block issue - it was world-wide.
Testing has improved the situation markedly - but what has been learnt from that period is that if an athlete had a marked improvement over a short period of time - and/or had a marked change in appearance - then they most certainly were on drugs.
We have known of the talent of Bolt since he was 14/15 - we have just been waiting for him to blossom.
However, with Semenya, her improvement in performance, and her appearance - it is like we have returned to the East German track team of the 80's. We have to remember, that there are very few boys in the world who can run as fast as Semenya.
Athletics is the loser here - if Semenya is proven to be girl, then women's athletics is dammed, and will loose all credibility. This is such a shame, because it took so long after the abuses of drug taking, to get it back to a fair competition.
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@Jimmothy 14 - #173
Priscilla Lopes-Schliep, Canadian female 100m hurdler, does have a large musculature. However, hers is not a gender issue and that has never been questioned in the Canadian track community, nor worldwide. She has made it public knowledge since the beginning that she has a genetic condition called lipodystrophy. It is is present on her mother's side of the family. This may raise the question mentioned by other posters in how we deal with other physical "advantages" that are bestowed by birth or place or residence, not just gender.
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hilarious.
maria mutola looked like a geezer as well but nobody questioned her :)
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First there is no doubt that the IAAF should not have released any statement about her doing gender tests to the media and certainly not before the race. To do so as others here have said, is against our basic principle of innocent until proven guilty, and I hope she is proven to be a woman and wins substantive damages from them.
We have moved forward in terms of equality for all kinds of disadvantaged groups but I'm guessing this "gender obscurity" minority are one that seem to still be victimised judging by some of the comments on here. Why do you need doctors to see if a woman is what we would all class as a woman? Or are we looking for physical abnormalities in a woman, which again opens up all kinds of issues since who decides what counts as an abnormality and thus who can race? Are women who are taller than 6ft allowed to run even though it is unusual for a woman to be that tall? Whole thing is has been handled appallingly.
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With so many medical experts, (unqualified), the IAAF may save itself the heavy fees of qualified consultants. Take a poll of the pros and cons of this never ending nonsense.
If gender tests are the outcome of a "whispering" campaign, then why not a mental health clearance for those contributing to the "witch-hunt"?
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The IAAF have a tough job to do
Todays reality is that performance enhancing drugs are unquestionably used by a great many top athletes , but detecting useage becomes more difficult
Everyone knows its going on esp all other athletes, it is therefore very understandible that anyting suspiciouc draws attention.
I have been around international sports for over 50 years Olympic, World champs , Pan Am , Commonwealth etc etc and we all know that drug use is rampant
The most obvious are the weight lifters who in my opinion could never lift such weights esp at such a young age without some form of PEDs.
If we had an exposure of all the users it would be astonishing
I am 100% certain if we could isolate any of these medal winning record breakers to ensure they were clean for one month then have them lift wts or whatever strength test my belief they could not do it as well.
All the exposures over the years will not end as long as people compete esp for money regardless of which sport. It breaks your heart if you love sports.
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20. At 07:48am on 20 Aug 2009, 2of3
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Of course you only investigate if their winning, thats how you get noticed as an athlete by winning. Achieving means that you maybe stopping others from achieving by illegal measures, who gives a damn if she was a bloke if she was coming last every race; knowone!
People cheat to win, not to come second, third or anywhere else, so when there is a curious case from a winner of course itis time to start investigating.
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#244
"Athletics is the loser here - if Semenya is proven to be girl, then women's athletics is dammed, and will loose all credibility. This is such a shame, because it took so long after the abuses of drug taking, to get it back to a fair competition."
Why are you saying that athletics is the loser if she is cleared? If she is cleared, she still won the gold with a time that was a second _weaker_ than last years Olympic victor, Pamela Jelimo of Kenya. Absolutely no problem for women's athletics, just good actually, that the runners are getting a bit better times again - last year was much better than this year's race.
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Caster Semenya is a victim of every cheat that has ever been caught out in athletics, the IAAF are just doing what they have to do to protect all the other athletes.
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Have just checked the calendar. It's the middle of the silly season.
So why not check Semenya's calendar? If she doesn't suffer the monthly discomforts there must be something on her medical records that the South African Authorities can produce to stop this process.
Though the venue with its links to the '36 Olympics could not be more appropriate!
Note how the media have selected in, almost every case, from the thousands of photographs available, a camera angle that distorts the distance to put the the blue eyed Aryan as close to the winner as possible, with its ill concealed invitation to racial comparison
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#240. catwomanmaneater wrote:
'I wonder if she was a white woman...if the authorities would ahve reacted the same way.................'
It's irritating to know that people like you have a computer.
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Given the times and victories she has achieved, this is a question the IAAF have to resolve but they are going about it in the most clumsy and tactless way. The tests should have been done in secret. They are going to be in a very difficult and embarrasing situation if at the end of the day she proves to be a woman.
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I think Caster has been the victime of her own Federation.
But it seems that prior the Championship the IAAF was gently pressurising the South African sport committee to reconsider the idea of sending Caster to Berlin because.Prior the competition there were already "rumours / suspicions".
I think the South African Sport Committee let her down. To say "we see her with European eyes and they see her with Africna eyes" is a very dodgy comment!!!
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Some of these comments are absolutely laughable, particularly the ones mentioning racism. Most female bodybuilders would be jealous of Caster's physique, because women's bodies just aren't geared towards being able to put on that much muscle. Caster probably is a woman, but there would have been an even bigger scandal if tests weren't being done. At least this way, it won't be trial by media as there will be an authoritative answer.
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If anyone wishes to approach this from a more scientific point of view try the following site:- http://www.hhmi.org/biointeractive/gender/click.html which may clarify the issues involved.
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Update from the medal ceremony: crowd give her a decent round of applause, she smiles a little and sings the national anthem nervously. Good reaction from the Olympiastadion.
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i think it has become imperative that the leading athletes do some damage control with this young lady until proven otherwise. Guys like Bolt, Asafa, Tyson , Allison, Shelly-Ann needs to sit with her and encourage her to press on. She seems to be a very good athele and one for the future. The IAAF needs to do their part as well.
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Well, innocent until proven guilty they say! - but surely, SURELY there is ample reason to suspect Semenya......She doesnt just look like a man, she actually postures and runs - wellll,,just like a man!
If she is proven to be a woman, then fair enough - hats off to her, and let her get on with the rest of her life and career...
But there is massive justification here to test...and to test as quickly as possible, as she is, and always will be under a cloud until things are properly clarified...
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Women's athletics is already decided by whoever is the most masculine, rather than who is the better athlete. I personally couldn't care less either way because even if she is a woman, it is obvious that with her build, no ordinary woman can hope to compete with her. Coupled with the fact that many women's track records are hopelessly out of reach due to decades of steroid-fuelled superwomen, women's athletics is a sideshow to the men's event.
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This young athlete grow up psychologically as a female and has been reared as a female. If there are some hormonal or chromosomal defects that have robbed her from childhood then she has nothing to do with them. Yes she might have a malformed Vagina and abdominal testes that will give her an xy male parten genome to qualify her as a genetical male.But the world society is only after the presence of Penis or Vagina to distiguish one as a male or female respectively. There is no any special group of an Abiguis gender competing otherwise she could have been classified with them . If there is any new discovery from this athlete then a new law should be formulated and be implemented in the next tournaments. let no one temper with her medal that she is now enjoying to calm her of the pschological trauma that the IAAF has created on her to remaind her of the congenital defects which she is even ignorant of.
Dr. Anthony Lupai Simon
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Absolute disgrace!Embarrasing the poor girl in front of the whole world.Is Sepp Blatter running the IAAF now?
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Apart from the Ratjen incident I seem to remember this happening one other time.It was only found out when the athlete was killed in a robbery in the States decades later.Cant quite remember the name but then again the 80's was kinda like a fog for me!
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As a South African I may be way off the point in saying this but if she were from a more dominant country in world sports, would she have been treated the same? I cant help but feel that the world media love a weak target. Had she been British or American would their respective outlets have reported in the same way? I hope the backlash (when she's cleared) reaches those it should.
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'She' is a man, I have no doubt.
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I'm apoplectic at how cruel human beings can be to each other. Who doesn't have features/traits they would want to avoid parading to the whole universe. Each and every one of us has skeletons hidden in our private closets yet we proceed to take a high moral ground to gang up on an 18 year old with perceptions not yet validated. Couldn't the IAAF have done these tests confidentially without alerting us unless if the results proved that there were anomalies pointing a finger to a case of cheating? Is the adage “Innocent until proven otherwise” selective to people/races. Imagine if your doctor suddenly splashed every detail of your problems to the "glare" of the public. No matter what happens the young girl's image has been tarnished beyond repair. Her crime is being androgyny which is something no-one asks for when they are born. The fact that she is black raises eyebrows on the way the issue has been handled by the different sinister forces involved. Imagine if it was your child (Black or white) trying to overcome the stigma enforced by the small minded people in this World (see her grandmother’s input) by facing the judgmental public through her God given talents only to be disproportionately lampooned. The word “sorry” has lost it meaning as people now purposefully, and passively hurt others under the pretext that they will say SORRY after the prejudice. But I think God sees the torment of the soul inflicted by the heinous lot and would make each and every one of them understand that pain one day. I used to be blinkered until life threw its unpredictable wheel at me. This world is really depressing to live in nowadays. Her internal pain cannot be described as I have come to learn that.
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If she/he continues to improve her/his personal best at such a rate, she/he'll have a time quicker than the men's world record in a couple of years.
Then we'll know for sure, eh?
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"She's a woman and everyone is cruel, or she's man and she is cheating. "
I find it hilarious that some people seem to think that gender comes only in two neatly divided boxes 'male' and 'female'. There are many many intersex conditions and the fatuous comments about 'showers' and the like don't help this matter in the slightest.
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To tgbutd -
Sorry that you're feeling so apoplectic, but it's neither a racist nor an anti-religionist argument that I'm propogating. It's a factual one - he's a bloke.
And to lordBeddGelert - divisions have to be made in every walk of life. Does one suddenly become safe to drive at the age of seventeen?
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The IAAF need to take a good look at themselves and their handling of the situation.
Whilst it is right and proper for them to ensure fair play for ALL athletes they must take criticism for the timing of the announcement that Semanya was undergoing gender assessment. The timing surely must have had the other atletes tittle tattling amongst themselves and pointing fingers ( no point in kidding it would not happen because it`s human nature) which can only add to the speculation of the outcome.
The best course of action would have been to allow the race to proceed and await the outcome of the tests before making any comment. If they come back positive that is time for decision making, if they come back negative things continue as per normal and nobody gets hurt or thrust into the limelight.
It`s not rocket science - just common sense.
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I do feel sorry for him
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'It wasn't just the rapid time. Semenya has a well-muscled physique. She also has a dusting of facial hair. Mix those three things together and ugly rumours spread like wildfire.'
Tom - Your article basically justifies gender testing on female athletes on the basis of fast times, a muscular physique and 'a dusting of facial hair'. On that basis every female athlete is open to question. You may not be intending to justify such an outdated, patriarchal attitude to athletic females but your failure to question the foundations of these 'ugly rumours' does just that.
For arguments sake lets assume the IAAF, WADA etc adopt your criteria for gender testing athletic females. They would then need to set benchmarks for the three markers. The first would be easy as to compete at international events one must run fast so every athlete satisfies that criteria. The second would be slightly more difficult but tests could include muscle mass and density which again would probably catch out most athletic females. So that just leaves the 'dusting of facial hair'. How do you quantify 'a dusting'? Is lenght important? Or colour? Maybe location? Hair in the vicinity of the ear might be ok but rouge hairs on the chin or upper lip results in a gender rethink. Hhmmm...at this rate there'll be no women left to compete.
In an effort to put gender testing in another perspective lets flip it on its head. If women who are deemed overly athletic are to be excluded, or at least made to compete in the male category, what are the implications for men who are under-athletic? Can a man who is slow, lacks a muscular physique and struggles to grow sufficient facial hair ask to be tested and re-classified as a female for the purposes of international athletic categorisation?
The implications of of this case are serious for all female athletes. Athletic females have fought a long battle to gain credibility and acceptance. This episode must not provide a platform for those who might wish to overturn those gains.
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It seems a shame that in this day of equality and liberation that a man like Ussein Bolt can break five world records and be hailed as an exceptional athlete and a woman runs an exceptional race and be questioned on her gender. Maybe she is just an exceptional athlete who out performed her competitors? Regardless of the outcome of this investigation some residual damage is inevitable and I would just like to say to Semenya - be proud of who you are and what you are achieving. Small minded people will get what they deserve.
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I think she has done fantastically, she deserves her medal regardless.
Going back a few years if Flo Jo had a similar hairstyle and normal nails no make up etc. would the same questions have been asked?
Iaaf have scored an own goal.
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To Kirk71
"It's a factual one - he's a bloke."
That's the ignorance/lack of critical analytic skills that sinks deep and boils my heart. How have you come about the conclusion that your assertions/perception merits the credence of being called facts. Don't you have androgenic relatives who have never heard of a thing called sex change in their lives yet suffer the unwarranted humiliation/ridicule from the so called "perfect" few. You really should travel a lot around the world especially to Africa. At times we complain about crime, terrorism when our ruthless actions of discrimination (covert and explicit) really breed the "monsters" out there. Someone is trying to withstand the tide of belittlement for being different yet some of the narrow minded people persist to tell them that they are not what they are. It's unfathomable how we have stooped to such low levels as a human race. Jealousy, hate, misguided elevation of oneself above others devours our hearts. Are you that lethargic to avoid trying to elope from that slippery slope? Remember that one day it might be your beloved one, kid, or you egregiously and wrongly put into the public scrutiny. The phrase DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD LIKE THEM TO DO UNTO is just a teleological statement that has no religious inclination and helps maintain the social balance. Reflect on your conclusions and weaknesses before you write/say them as you will stain your conscience if they are flawed. Words are like guns they have the power to culminate in genocides if misused. May she (Semenya) find peace and not resort to detrimental ways of finding solace because such kind of emotional trauma is extremely hard to get over. What a cruel world we have built.
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Just finished watching an alien compete in a race with the male 100m athletes. Its name is Usain Bolt! How does it sound? That Usain Bolt was far away from the others in the race, does not qualify him to be called a demon. The South African girl is just a victim of pettiness.
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I am a Jamican and i estacitic about Bolt but i need to ask this question why is it such a acheivement for Bolt a man to win world record and Caster Semenya it is a cheat.
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I am a Jamaican and i ecstatic about Bolt but i need to ask this question why is it such a achievement for Bolt a man to win world record and Caster Semenya it is a cheat. I’m fed up with our patriarchal world where a woman always has to prove herself.
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My 2 cents:
A) As other posters have said until 2000 gender testing was compulsory therefore athletes that started their careers before this would have been tested so comparisons to people like Mutola are irrelevant.
B) These tests are not being carried out because of her performance at the championships as they had already been set in motion.
C) Usain Bolt along with all other athletes are tested to ensure they are not doping, I accept he is not tested to see if he is a woman, but then I shouldn't imagine extra oestrogen would really help his performance!
The IAAF have not handled it well, personally I think they should have kept their traps shut until after they had the results back. That said there has clearly been suspicion around Semenya for some time and I feel the SA federation could have protected their athlete better by doing these tests before they entered her for such a high profile competition.
Personally I think she clearly has a testosterone level way above the norm for a woman. Whether this is due to doping or genetics is up in the air.
I do feel sorry for the her though, imagine standing on top of the podium to collect your medal, it should be the high point of your career, you shouldn't have to stand there knowing that the capacity crowd is whispering about how you might be a man.
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People need to get off their high horses here and be realistic.
She looks like a man, she sounds like a man and she runs like a man; both in terms of style and performance. What was the IAAF supposed to do?
Ignore it? That's not an option otherwise men could compete in any female event and likely win and if there were questions they would just have to go unanswered.
Act daft for months until the tests are complete? For me that would lead to a more prolonged situation with the press and athletics federations calling for an investigation. If she had have been back in the pack the spotlight wouldn't have been focused on her and the IAAF could probably have kept it quiet, but when she's favourite for the title and then goes on to win it I think they had to announce the tests. That said, it was a very clumsy affair indeed, especially the timing.
People raising the question of race is particularly annoying as it's a question of gender, not race. There have been plenty of other black gold medal winners and no controversy. It's rubbish like that that diminishes real cases of racial discrimination.
There are cases where gender is a blurred line, but in sport the line is very clear. There are 2 categories: male and female. Like it or not a decision must be made about which category she is eligible for.
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To tgbutd,
There's obviously some personal agenda that you're bringing to this.
In the meantime, reality beckons...
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"There are cases where gender is a blurred line, but in sport the line is very clear. There are 2 categories: male and female. Like it or not a decision must be made about which category she is eligible for."
Exactly.
Did the IAAF handle it badly? yes, and those responsible should have repercussions. Is she cheating? Who knows. But as Meazza wrote in sport she has to be categorised into either male or female to compete and in order to protect fairness for all athletes the IAAF must investigate is suspicions are raised or a complaint made.
Gender testing for individuals has been in effect for every olympics since sydney and before that it was compulsory anyway. The IAAF is simply following protocol in testing her.
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# 267. As a South African I may be way off the point in saying this but if she were from a more dominant country in world sports, would she have been treated the same? I cant help but feel that the world media love a weak target. Had she been British or American would their respective outlets have reported in the same way? I hope the backlash (when she's cleared) reaches those it should.
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It wouldn't have got to this stage in Britain or America. In many countries the question of gender would have been investigated by the national federation before throwing an athlete into a global competition.
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Innocent until proven guilty (though guilt may well be not intentional) as far as i see it.
The bigger issue is how the leaders of major sporting bodies, in this case the IAAF, are so horrendously prone to such major gaffes. This is a young girl who has been utterly humiliated on a global scale. I truly hope she come through these tests as a female and that heads at the IAAF role.
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All I know is I've never seen her and Shola Ameobi in the same room. I admit its possibly a bit harsh but as soon as I saw her first I instantly thought she was the spitting image of Newcastle's striker.
Despite this I never actually thought she was a man and I find it completely wrong that the IAAF chose the day of her final to announce they were testing her gender. Completely and utterly wrong to come out then regardless of the outcome of the tests.
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I'm surprised the suggestion hasn't been raised before that she is a chimera. This could explain the male appearance and characteristics (like facial hair) and female body structure.
In this case, testing would show both male and female DNA present in different parts of the body. Who knows what the IAAF could do in this situation.
See http://www.thetech.org/genetics/ask.php?id=233 for references to chimera.
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I wasn't convinced till I realised that 'Caster Semenya' is an anagram of 'a secret man, yes'. Irrefutable proof if I ever saw it.
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106 Stealbong
I never said that Semenya should not be tested...I merely made comments about the poor timing of the proceedings and suggested that if she had been from a different country (USA, UK) she may not have been treated this way.
Yes, she does look masculine...but then so many athletes do (have you seen a recent team photograph of the North Korean Womens Football Team?)
I work in sports and coach many teenage athletes, both male and female...most of these are of African heritage and several of them are quite androgynous. Thankfully for them I have never been rude enough to challenge their gender publically like the IAAF.
There are so many potential issues that will continue to run and run after this incident is concluded...one clearly will be (for sporting purposes anyway) what determines gender. Clearly having male/feamle reproductive organs may be not be enough.
Based on my research into her background Semenya has lived life as a female and believes herself to be of that sex. Even if it is proved that she is not technically female, she is innocent of cheating because in her mind she is a young woman.
I just hope that she is not scarred too much by this and that the issue of transgenderism in sports is looked at more closely as it is possible that there are many athletes around the world in many sports that may be (technically speaking) be competing in the wrong sex grouping.
Perhaps this incident may actually have some benefit in opening peoples minds.
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This shoulow long never have been aired in public, but what I want to know is how long does it take to tell if someone is a man or a woman these days?
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The tests will prove the outcome.
What suprises me why was there not the same uproar when tennis legend Matina Navritilova crushed all her rivals no one doubted her gender.
Whats next if Mr Bolt continues to win like he does are we going to have a test for male athletes to determine from which planet he is from is he an alien with super powers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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291 ...'a secret man, yes' (laughs)
Semenya! if Female then honour her win, however! if sex change then ban RSA Team from 2012 Olympics for deception.
296 a huge steroid overload! (Mrs Universe bodybuilding)
All Eye's on Africa!
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Having had my post removed for being 'defamatory', I'm surprised that 90% of the posts above are sill there.....
Best to remove the blog altogether, as it invites such comments.
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...a bit late into this.....
If, in her case, the definition of female/male is more than just visual, then surely ALL athlete's (male and female) HAVE to be tested.
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I am not sure if am correct here but people don't seem to be understanding the issue. She is obvuiously a woman in the physical respect, and I am sure she is in every other respect too. However there are genetic disorders such as Klinefelters sysndrome where the woman possess a Y chromosome (normally only present in men) and multiple X chromosomes. This would cause a woman to develop as a woman but possess some of the physical advantages of a man. In addition it is possible to have normal X Y chromosomes as in all men but to posses no Testosterone receptors. In this case a man would develop as a woman and would be none the wiser.
I think this is the issue raised here, not the simple "taking off her pants" test people are talking about.
By the way I am a geneticist so i know what I am talking about.
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There is one aspect that this situation has shown and that is what a dismal world we are all part of, the disrespect and indignity that has been shown towards this human being is disgraceful.
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First off I want to say congrats on a great race, now to the points I wish to make that lots of people seem to be missing.
1. SHE LOOKS LIKE A MAN and TALKS LIKE A MAN, thus there will be questions and no this isn't because she is black!!!
2. She is no cheat, she was brought up as a woman and I have no doubt believes she is but if science says she has characteristics that make her a man and that gives her an unfair advantage is it fair to race against other Women? I think not.
3. To have such a massive increase in her PB has historically proved to be chemically induced, blame the cheats from the past for this problem!
The biggest problem we have nowadays is that to be the best in the world you have to be different from the rest, Michael Phelps is a freak of nature which makes him the perfect swimmer. I hope for Semenya she is the same.
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The treatment of this young athlete is absolutely appalling. She has won the race fair and square. As a species I can only imagine that human beings in reality exhibit a wide range of genetic make up, are the World Championships Athletics Association seriously suggesting that they should be defining the genetic make up of participants other than their obvious gender? Its a road they really should not go down. There is no question, that those who are behind the decision to subject Semenya to such outrageous humiliation should be removed swiftly from there position and they should offer an open and abject apology
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#300 How difficult is it to determine if we are looking at a natural or synthetic development here?
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Semenya! Semenya! What a way to make additional history. Let us try to be objective in our comments. The IAAF must be doing its job to verify a claim/complaint. It may not necessarily be witch hunting. The athlete in question is a female until proven otherwise. I do not think we should necessarily make a big deal out of this. It is a bit too early to draw conclusions. So far, it is a complaint, the IAAF are investigating, results will be out, Senenya may be guilty or may not. If guilty, we call her(him) a cheat, if not, then we begin to smell a rat and will demand an explanation. There is nothing new under the sun. Meanwhile, South Africans are free to give moral support to their own. I sympathise with Senenya especiallly if she is not a female eventually.
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Admittidly, i did say she looks like a teenage boy when I first saw her (I won't deny a moment of ignorance on my part), but to test whether she's a woman or not?? Come on, I know Africa has had murmurings of cheating in other sports (I refer to the case of Nigerian footballers possbily being older in U21 competitions), but this is ridiciulous.
And the IAAF couldn't have timed it better, could they? And, as mentioned, why didn't they keep quiet until the tests were complete? Would like to know who's going to apologise to her if the tests prove she is indeed female. Albeit just looks masculine, thats all.
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#300 read my original post #218, in which I clarify the issues. But there are few more points I wish to add:
A lot of people here and elsewhere seem to suggest that primary characteristics, to wit, the reproductive organs of an athlete do not matter or do not count for much. Of course, they do matter, that's how every athlete is categorised or judged in the first instance. In the case of Caster Semenya it is of paramount importance to begin the discussion with the facts, which are already known to and accepted by the IAAF, that she was born a girl and raised as a girl. Sadly, there are still simple-minded buffoons out there, including the Italian athlete, who are questioning even these humble facts. So, it is worth labouring this point.
Whatever the outcome of the tests, Semenya CANNOT race in the male category, because her primary characteristics are female. On the other hand, if the results of the tests were to show that she possesses biologically determined male secondary characteristics that give her advantage over other female athletes, then she wouldn't be allowed to compete in the female category either. In other words, she would have to give up athletics. It's worth labouring the point again, the results will not and cannot show that she isn't female, since she already is female, they will only show that she is a female who can't compete against other females on account of possessing biologically determined male secondary characteristics that give her advantage over other females in athetics alone. This is not being politically correct, I'm trying to be as precise as possible.
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People have asked why this was not kept private until such time that the results of the test were known. My explanation is this.
If an athlete is taking performance enhancing drugs it is almost impossible for experts, let alone the layman, to tell by the physical appearance of the athlete. in Caster Semenya's case her physical appearance (and voice) is enough to raise obvious questions. It would therefore be extremely difficult for the IAAF to keep this private.
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@302 .. it must be noted that Semenya comes from a poor family background and did not have the pampered surroundings that Western athletes demand and expect as their right. Last year she participated in the World Junior Champs as a raw talent and ran 2:11.
Two months later she went on to win the Commonwealth Youth Games with a time of 2:04 in October 2008. She was 17 years old
http://www.time-to-run.com/forums/vbnews.php?do=viewarticle&artid=337
In 2009, and now with the backup of Pretoria University she improved to 2:00 before running 1:56 in the Africa Junior Champs.
After all what she has been subjected to and to still go out and win, shows a strength of character of amazing proportions
What Champions are made of
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I think obviously some of the most negative comments come from the English i wont't even say British. If you have a country full of substandard athletes who cannot compete on the world scene with athletes from the so called third world. If you can claim that an athlete who just managed to scrape in third ran an excellent race it just shows why you claim that the winner won because she was a man. Just admit your athletes are niot naturally talented like the Jamaicans etc, so hoping that she is disqualified so that you can obtain a silver medal is so so sad.
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Complaints about the treatment of Semenya might have a little more integrity if it was acknowledged that for historical reasons the vast majority of athletes in this position have been european/caucasian. Then there was an 800m runner from India a few years ago. In short there's nothing new about it, which imo the BBC coverage has only partly illuminated. It may be the first time an African athlete has been subject to this controversy (so far as I can tell), but that doesn't make it a unique event. Maria Patino of Spain (someone mentioned her earlier) is an interesting case. She failed a gender test, was asked to feign injury to withdraw from a championships and then again to facilitate retirement, but decided to fund her own tests which demonstrated that although she was to some degree 'trans-gender' she was resistant to the strength-promoting qualities of testosterone. On that basis she was re-admitted to athletics. I hope Semenya gets more assistance than that athlete received.
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I'm a Zoology graduate. It's her name that caused me to write this in the midst of all the controversy surrounding her gender. Sorry, if I am being disrespectful to her or her parents. Her first name Caster seems to sound like the first two syllables "castration" and her second name Semenya, like "semen". Both akin to the reproductive system of the male human species. Did her mother or father know about this when they named her? It will be very interesting to know the outcome of the gender test.
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#312 I'm a linguist. This is the most simple-minded drivel that has ever come from anyone educated at a graduate level. I'm quite sure your Zoology department would be shocked and ashamed of having produced such a simple-minded buffoon.
Some years ago, a British child was forced to change his surname, which was Hell, because in the superior language called English, it carries the obvious connotations. It later turned out that he was of Austrian descent, where such a surname is not uncommon and carries no similar connotations. Sit down for a moment and think about all the languages of the world, try to imagine what connotations some of the most innocent sounding English names and words carry in these languages, you will see how simple-minded even abominable to view other languages as some sort of subsidiaries of your own native tongue.
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It's a shame the BBC has decided this story is worth covering. The IAAF has made a complete mess of it, it should not have been made public, and the BBC should have risen above the contraversy. She's 18 for goodness sake and surely the BBC is big enough to stand back, recognise the horrid situation she finds herself in and just lay off.
Presumably the BBC will commit itself to providing exactly the same level of coverage when this young women is proven to be a women.
Also, still no coverage from the BBC on the winner of the women's marathon, who looks no more or less of a women than Semenya.
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Stella Walsh!that's the name.I'm not crazy after all!
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Some of the ‘tests’ this young girl will be subjected to will be the most invasive you could imagine. To have your gender and what you believe in being questioned in public all because of your job, to have a group of strangers probe and prod you in a way you don’t even want your gynaecologist doing for life saving purposes, and to know the whole world has been told what they are going to do is something no man or woman should have to deal with at 18 or any other time.
The reasons given for the testing do not hold and making it public is despicable at the very least. Shouldn’t they be carrying out a drug test for the improved performance?
I have seen women from different races who look more masculine and with more facial hair than this girl, and I’m not the most travelled person in the world. Surely the officials at the IAAF should be accustomed to the different ranges in male and female features.
To the person who said this was just a bit of fun and it’s not like she would read BBC, ask yourself if next time you turn up for work you have to under go the invasive tests she has to go through how fun you would find it. If you’re a woman and still think its fun then your gynaecologist should be retrained at the very least, and if you’re a man and think its fun, you should go for some UT check-ups and come back and post how much fun you had.
For all our sakes let us hope this does not leave a long-lasting negative effect and does not lead to a tragedy in this young woman’s life.
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Both Florence Griffith-Joyner and Jackie Joyner-Kersee were briefly accused of being men during the 1988 Seoul Games. I remember watching the news conference on NBC when both athletes and their husbands responded to the accusation (which was brought by another male runner); what it got down to was that said runner couldn't believe either women got their musculature naturally. I wish I could remember the name of the other runner but it died out pretty quick.
When I look at Ms. Semanya, I see a woman. In fact, I've had the same accusation leveled at me because of having broad shoulders, light hair on my face due to PCOS (polycystic ovaries syndrome) and somewhat narrow hips. And yes, my testosterone is 15 points above normal. Did any of that give me an advantage as a shotputter? Not likely, since I didn't find out about the PCOS and the testosterone until I was well into adulthood. What advantages I did have came from a rigorous training schedule, technique, having a whole lot of time to practice, and a supportive environment at home.
From what little we've heard of Ms. Semanya's upbringing, she's always been something of a tomboy. So she preferred to wear pants as a kid; she played soccer with boys, a skirt would be a disadvantage and not every girl prefers skirts. I dumped all of mine the minute I left Catholic school and went to high school. One of my teachers told me three years later (when he saw me in a skirt) that he thought I didn't have legs because I wore pants all the time. And she didn't wear the standard track uniform, instead preferring longer shorts and a cropped top? If her team offered this as an option, why is that suspicious?
Leaving aside Ms. Semanya's testing, at the end of the day we all might want to ask why women athletes are required to femme it up in order to do what they're out there to do: compete at the highest levels they can achieve. Is it to assure ourselves that there's no deviance in the ranks? Women athletes in the US, especially in the NCAA, are always under scrutiny for the possibility of lesbianism (ooooh, it's catching), or some other activity that will deem them less that 'normal'. Go through a sports blog and there's always a comment of someone not looking 'pretty enough' or 'beastly' - as if that has any bearing on what you're doing on the field. I'm sorry, if I'm sweating that hard, I am not going to be worrying if my makeup is holding up.
I hope this all works out and that Ms. Semanya can go on running. As for testing for all female athletes, I'll support it only if men are rigorously tested as well.
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Of course the IAAF are right to test her. And of course their handling of the issue has been abysmal. There needs to be a clear policy in place as to who is tested, why they are tested, and what the genetic and biochemical criteria for determining gender eligibility.
To those who think "well she has ovaries so she's female, leave her alone", the fact is that hormone levels make a huge difference in sport. Testosterone is an anabolic steroid (albeit a naturally-ocurring one)That is why those who show elevated testosterone levels are disqualified.
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i have a sperm producing Penis and i am attracted to women...will i be regarded as a woman if i were to be found carrying the 46XX folks?
Caster does everything basic that a girl her age does,i can imagine how she is feeling right now.
i bet she regrets ever setting foot in Berlin. those who were booing her after she won the race should just look at their miserable shame disgusting faces in the mirror and see how "special" they all are are.
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amazing how people justify discrimination.this world will never come right if we still have this issues of gender and race clouding our better judgement.it will always be Blacks against White & men against women!!!!
i wonder what god is saying about all this...what i know for a fact is that he is with the lil princess of Africa Caster Semenya during this trying times at her tender age been forced to endure worldwide crutiny and prejudism.
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Ananagram of 'Castor Semenya' is 'Yes, a secret man'
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Oops I meant 'Caster Semenya' not Castor, anagram stands though!
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I believe the test was ordered 3 weeks before she won the competition. That makes 80% of the above comments invalid.
Instead of taking the safety button off our racism guns, why don't we ask the only person which has a valid opinion on this matter, namely: Semenya?
Nope, that would be too decent and reasonable. Instead, let's ask what every African thinks and turn nothing into an ethnic pride issue.
Stop the train guys; there is a continent that wants to get off.
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Isn't it about time Amelie Mauresmo had a gender test?
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Caster is from a small village in Limpopo Province, SA, she is an 18 year old in her first of university. The world championship is one victory that will make rich, if she passes the ridiculous tests, my point in this is that Caster has no knowledge about changing sexual organs, in addition to this, in Africa, to do this one must have a lot of money, which Caster will only have from winning the championship. Some times is good to think critically about this issue which IAAF should have done before following rumours. There were many women who looked like men even from America and European countries but that was not questioned. Maybe the 800m was not supposed to be won by an African!!!!
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surely ASA should have had their facts/tests available. if she is in fact a he will the ASA head honcho's resign, just as the IAAF members should do should she be a she?
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I wanted to use the handle of InterSexMe, being that I am Intersex by definition, medical definition that is. However even though this discussion is about an athletes sex one is not allowed to use the word 'sex' in the handle name, probably indicative of the paranoia and hatred the world has about Intersex people, and if it's not that way it feels that way! Caster Semenya is a female, whatever her chromosomes turn out to be, she is female. My chromosomes are XXY, some people like me are XX some are XXYY a some are XXXY and XXXXY then there are the mosaics like XY/XXY. Gender is not about chromosomes gender is about expression, and most people like me express masculinity, but not all. I think the best way to sole the issue for the IAAF and the IOC is have athletes compete according to a Body Mass Index scale and leave gender out of the equation all together. That way everyone can compete fairly and no-one gets excluded.
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