How England can win the Ashes
At least the scenario is a simple one. One Test to go, one victory needed. If England win at The Oval, the Ashes are theirs, no matter what horrors Headingley witnessed.
That's the easy bit. Rather more complicated is how exactly they do that. At least three of the top five batsmen are out of touch. The bowling attack was dismantled in Leeds. Australia, having struggled for much of the series, appear to have hit form at exactly the right time.
Lots of posts on these blogs over the past few days have called for substantial changes to the England side. Ravi Bopara has copped the most flak, followed closely by Ian Bell and Steve Harmison.
Calls have been made for the recall of 39-year-old Mark Ramprakash, despite the fact that he last played for England seven years ago and averaged a meagre 27 in over 50 Tests. Kent's Rob Key is another popular name, as is Warwickshire's Jonathan Trott.
But, as far as former England spinner Phil Tufnell and ex Aussie opener Matthew Hayden are concerned, that's not the way England will turn things around.
"I would say no to wholesale changes," says Tufnell. "We're one Test away from winning the Ashes. The boys have got us this far - okay, we've had a bad match, but crikey, we're playing against Australia, one of the best sides in the world. It's still 1-1.
"Hopefully Freddie Flintoff will be fit and come back into the side, but apart from that I would say, right guys - we've been together all the way through, let's put this defeat behind us - let's go out there and put it right. I'd stick with the guys.
"I would leave Bopara in. I'd say to him, we've given you the full lot, we all know you can play, this is your opportunity to right the wrongs. It's amazing sometimes how that confidence in someone can pay dividends."
Hayden, who has spent the summer as a summariser for Test Match Special, endured some rough times himself as an international batsman before finally cementing his place in the Australian line-up.
"You can't just go chopping and changing," he says. "If you make mass changes it can feel like panic, and you don't want that in any way - and do you want to do that in the last match of series when it's all on the line, because that bloke is then going to be under enormous pressure.
"Having been on the other side of fence, I can tell you that to have the lift of having a selector stick with you when you're having a bad time can do wonders for you. It's like the old adage says - form is temporary, class is permanent."
What about England's tactics at The Oval? For Tufnell, the defeat at Leeds doesn't necessarily change the way Andrew Strauss's men should approach the final Test.
"Funnily enough, it's not the end of the world needing to go for the win. In a way, knowing you have to go for the win is the best mindset you can have. If you were going there 1-0 up, wondering if you should play for a draw, that can affect you quite badly.
"The 10-day gap is critical. The team has to go away, sort out the niggles like James Anderson's hamstring, put their feet up and have a rest, and then start to get their minds ready for it all.
"This defeat all happened so quickly, and things can easily go a bit wayward in the aftermath. You need to get the coaches working, get the camaraderie going, get the buzz back, feel like you want to go out there.
"It's been a series between two very evenly-matched sides. We knew Australia were going to come back strongly; they got a bit of belief from the way it finished at Edgbaston, and for the first time, the bowlers have hit their straps.
"Cricket is all about momentum. There's a lot made of that word, but the Aussies have it at the moment. In Cardiff that last-wicket partnership got us out of a hole and we took that to Lord's, and we can get it back."
Hayden believes there will be two key factors for England: the fitness of the talismanic Flintoff, and the state of the Oval pitch.
"For the balance of the side, Fred will have to come back in. He was an enormous loss to England in Leeds, not dissimilar to when we lost Glenn McGrath in 2005.
"He'll have to come back into the side, and then my pick would be to bowl the left-arm and right-arm spinners.
"Australia will go with a quartet of fast bowlers. They'll look to find up and down movement as the pitch deteriorates and causes doubt and trouble for the batsmen.
"England don't want a pitch that has anything green about it. A good even one, quite a dry one - that allows the option of double spinners to come into play, which is why Monty Panesar might come into contention."
Headingley was about as depressing it could have been for England supporters. Despite that, the series is alive.
One game, one win. It's not a bad finale.
I'm Tom Fordyce and I cover cricket, rugby, tennis, athletics and - well, most sports except monkey-tennis. You can also follow me on 
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no, thats wrong. drop bopara bell onions, for key trott/ramps fred. simple. and you have a match winning team
first post!
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England should at least give Bopara a chance and have hit bat at 4. I suppose that would mean bringing in Rob Key, but he has played Test cricket. Not the lithest in the field, but that's ok. No more Harmison, he's had his chances. Ramprakash? Please, just imagine the digs the Aussie fielders will get in about him being on a dancing show. Piling up runs against div 2 county cricket trundlers is hardly proper preparation for facing a Test attack. And why the calls to drop Broad after he just took six wickets and scored a fifty? If anything, he should come in at number 3.
England have to pick a team to win. Might as well go with Siders for Harmison - what do they have to lose?
Strauss, Cook, Key, Bopara, Colly, Flints (if he's unfit then they've lost anyway), Prior, Malfoy, Swann, Anderson, Sidebottom.
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Bopara is the only player that could be dropped out of the batsmen for Key/Trott. All this talk of Ramprakash is just that, talk. I would keep the team as it is apart from Freddie if he's fit. Give them a chance, it was a bad game yes but it's not the end of the series just yet.
And BertisBigBanana, why the hell would you drop Onions? He has bowled consistently well all series.
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re 1
totaly agree although i might keep onions and drop anderson as he is not fit but id drop bopara and bell without hesitation both are overated.
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The expectation heaped upon Bopara is ridiculous, but quintessentially English. He had a great series against a mediocre West Indies team, and is now having a poor series against a reasonable Australian one. He probably shouldn't be batting at 3, but it's still too early to make scathing judgements about him. More importantly, we have pretty much no idea how Trott or Key would do in his place.
As for the possibility of recalling Ramprakash, it smacks of the short-termist selection desperation that plagued English cricket for so long. He played Test cricket for 11 years, never flourished, and suddenly a load of runs in county cricket make him the Ashes saviour. Hadn't Ian Bell been helping himself to championship bowling before replacing Pietersen? Has he looked like doing the same against Australia?
If Flintoff is fit, he should replace Harmison, and that's that. Everything else would be a retrograde gamble of unknown proportions.
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I totally agree with Tuffers and Matthew Hayden...Don't make loads of changes to the England line-up at the Oval. Putting players like Ramprakash smacks desperation which the Aussies will feed off. If Ramprakash, Key or even Trott come in and fail we will have more sensationalist articles and comments saying how it was a stupid decision quite possibly by the same people who recommended them in the first place! I hope that they keep faith in Bopara and he and/or Bell hit a massive score at the Oval just to show that our middle order can infact score some runs! It might stop all these idiots going on about getting Trescothick out of retirement too.
I know his 6 wickets in the Aussie 1st innings came too late but that coupled with his batting shows Broad should keep his place. Harmison underpeformed which wasn't really a surprise as Sidebottom should have been picked instead so if Flintoff is fit then I think Harmison will be the one to go rather than Onions. Yes England were awful at Headingley but England still have a good chance at winning the Ashes without resorting to desperate measures like recalling Mark Ramprakash!
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I actually dis-agree with Tuffers on this one, the Oval is basically now a cup-final scenario where we need to play our 11 best playes. This means, that, in my humble opinion, we need to drop Bopara, Bell and Harmison from the team played at Headingly. My team Would be:
Strauss
Cook
Key
Colly
Trott
Prior
Freddie
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Onions
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Wholesale changes are not needed but Collingwood has to go. I am fed up of hearing that he is a "fighter" or that he can be relied upon when the chips are down. When it comes down to it he has an average ,at most, county batter who admittedly is an excellent fielder and useful bowler. It seem these little add ons are what keeps him in the team when if purely judged on his output of runs he wouldn't get a sniff. I hate to say it but Johnathan Trott offers all three aspects of Collingwoods game and is the much better batter. Don't get me started on Ian Bell either. I would lose Bell and Collingwood for good and bring in Key and Trott on the basis that they will get a run in the side and not just for one test. Bowling wise , we will wait to see what the oval wicket brings but I would keep faith in what we had at Headingley. I do feel if it was horses for courses thought that Sidebottom should of played at Leeds and Harmison at the Oval.
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Everybody is talking about the failure of England's batsmen at Headingley. They had a bad day at the office - no doubt.
I think it was madness to opt to bat on the first morning given that the team had been stood in the Leeds rain for an hour at 5am in the morning as a result of a fire alarm. A momentary lapse in concentration due to tiredness as a batsman could mean him losing his wicket, for a bowler it just means being hit for 4. I think that was very poor management and captaincy which, effectively, cost us the test match. From then on we were always fighting a losing battle and England have shown over the last few years that they do not have the right mentality to do that.
That besides what should we do for the next test.
We need to win, which means we need to take 20 wickets. Drawing the test is no good as we would still not regain the ashes. Therefore I think we should concentrate on getting the bowling team right and then chose the batsmen to support them. If we have to lose a batsmen to accomodate another strike bowler then so be it.
So let us know who the bowling team should be rather than talk about replacing the batting team. It is no good scoring 600 if we let the Aussies do the same.
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The above analysis ignores the fact that England are extremely lucky to be still in with a chance of winning and could easily be 4-0 down at this stage. Australia should have won in Cardiff, could have chased down 500+ to win at Lords if 3 of their top order had not been given out in controversial circumstances, would likely have won at Edgbaston except for the rain (lead of almost 300 with 5 wickets in hand) and comprehensively won at Headingley.
The leading run scorers and wicket takers are all Australian and Englands bottom 5 have scored almost as much as their top 5. The current England squad has therefore been outplayed over the last month or so and it is unlikely that they can turn this around in the next Test. I would therefore think that their only chance is to make wholesale changes and hope the replacements can come up with the goods.
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Bopara simply cannot play the next test at the Oval. He's had 4 tests and done nothing!
England are in a position to win the ashes, but this is inspite of him being in the team, not because of it.
Anyone coming in to replace him will undoubtedly be under pressure, but who ever it is, they can't do any worse!! Thats what the England management should be telling the replacement, make yourself a hero, and even if you don't its not like you've done any worse.
Key doesn't fill me with confidence, despite a test double hundred under his belt. But at least he's a real number 3 with experience and a calm head. He would also be an asset in the field as he is an excellent captain. At times Strauss seems to need ideas from elsewhere when the plans dont work and Key would give that extra opinion to comnsider.
I would love to see Owais Shah come in at three, where he should have been all series, but maybe it would be too much pressure for a relatively inexperienced player at internation level.
Ramps would be fantastic for nostalgia value alone, and I think he would probably make more runs than Bopara has done in the series in just this match, but at 3? Would prefer him at 4 in place of Bell, who also should lose his place. Another who does not deserve to be in the team. Others are playing better in the counties, and he has failed consistently in tests when it matters. On streaky 50 when theres no pressure and the situation is not tough, does not an ashes winner make.
So for me, probably Key in at 3 and Ramps in at 4. Colly to keep his place, and be given a kick up the backside for this game.
The bowling is another matter entirely.
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Here we go again. England lose one test match - in pretty dismal fashion, I'll admit - and we're back to all the talk of the fundamental failures of English cricket. Where was this a week ago? And somehow, it's those same doom-mongers who single-handedly keep the likes of Mark Ramprakash in the test reckoning. No way. Agree with Tuffers, Hayden and the others here.
The whole team doesn't need a shake-up:
1) Bring back Freddie for either Harmy or Onions. I hoped Onions would outbowl Harmison in the last test but on balance he's not done enough to keep his place. I think Harmison's mental fragility makes him a liability but the Oval should at least suit him better than Headingly.
2) Keep Bopara but bat him at 4, with Bell at 3. Not ideal but much better than the alternatives.
Talking of which, I find the talk of a possible recall for Ramps absolutely ludicrous. He's a proven failure at test level, particularly whenever he was under any kind of pressure - his one Ashes hundred in a dead rubber in 2001 barely counts. He only scores bucket-loads of runs for Surrey because he feels under no pressure whatsoever to perform. The answer, therefore, is not to put him straight into the most pressured match of his life...
No, stick with Ravi, give him the relative comfort of second-wicket down and try and build his confidence back.
Strauss
Cook
Bell
Bopara
Collingwood
Prior
Flintoff
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Harmison
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I don't see why Rob Key is being named as a potential replacement. He has about the 20th best average in Division 2 of County Cricket, in comparison to Ramprikash who has an unbelievable one. Bopara must drop down the order, and if trescothick can play, I would play him.
Strauss
Trescothick
Cook
Ramprakash
Bopara
Prior
Broad
Flintoff
Swann
Anderson
Onions
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I would pick Strauss, Prior and then 9 bowlers! England's lower 6 players (non-specialist batsmen) have contributed 40% of the runs in this current series out of the 2162 runs England has scored. We have more chance of skittling Australia out that way for a low-ish and then let Broad and Swanny come in the middle order and bish bosh bash it around!
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Ravi has failed in every innings, how can he possibly deserve his place?
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Can anyone remember a decent Paul Collingwood innings that was not in reaction to being dropped or to England staring down a barrel?
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I've given up calling for Colly to be dropped for just that reason - somehow, he does seem to come good eventually.
We need to hope some of that rubs off on Bopara.
That's more likely to happen that Trott scoring runs on debut...
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AndyfromWidnes (9)
Interesting point about England opting to bat after the disturbances of the previous night (incidentally I'm amazed there haven't been any conspiracy theories about that......) but I think you're overlooking the other problem- Prior's back. As it transpired his spasm turned out to be a temporary glitch which didn't affect him later in the game but it would have been a bit of a gamble for Strauss to put the Aussies in under the circumstances- suppose his back had gone again stretching for a wild Harmison bouncer in the first couple of overs.....
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Bell has proven time and again that he doesn't have the composure in high pressure situations. The same was true of Mark Ramprakash. Neither should be considered for the oval. Bopara is a young and talented batsman who has the potential to be a match winner for England. He's a good 'un, like broad, not to be discarded at the first drop in form. Harmison should not have been picked for Headingley, the pitch and conditions would have suited Sidebottom much better. However, remembering how he played against South Africa at the oval last year, I would give him another chance too (although KP did seem to have a knack for getting the best out of him). So the question is - who replaces Bell and I suppose this means Trott will get his chance.
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I wouldn't go for wholesale changes, but England's need is to come up with an adequate replacemnt for their senior batsman, KP. Bell seemed like a reasonable substitution, but apparently he isn't. I would not even consider asking someone to make his debut at the Oval or recall someone such as Key or Shah who woukld feel that their whole future is at stake. Since Trescothick does not seem like a possibility, I do think that Ramps is the best short-term fill-in until KP can return. And his record is actually good against Australia, including, if I remember correctly, some under-pressure innings. Ramps has the talent and current form, and at this stage he just would not have the same pressures as any other candidate or, indeed, as he himself had in his earlier England career.
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electricdrewgaloo has a short memory. If Collingwood hadn't saved England at Cardiff, the Ashes would have already gone. He averages well over 40 in Test cricket and what he lacks in flair he more than makes up for in mental strength.
The selectors shouldn't panic but understand that The Oval is effectively a Cup Final. They need to decide who the best players are to shine in that pressure cauldron and not buckle under pressure. That's why for me, Colly is in and Bell and Bopara are out. It's not the game for debutants, so Trott must wait for the South African tour. Key should come back in. He is a tough cookie, with a good Test record at no 3 (averaging 40), and is well respected by the Aussies. Warne, Gower, Botham and Boycott all think he should be in, which is good enough for me.
I've got a hunch that Trescothick would love to play, help England win the Ashes and sign off his international career on the right note. He could open to allow Cook to drop down the order (thus reuniting him with Strauss, our best opening pair since Hobbs & Sutcliffe), or you could bat him at three or four.
Fred has to play unless he cannot walk. The adrenalin will get him through. Two spinners is not the way to beat the Aussies unless Murali and Mendis can qualify for England in the next ten days. Stick with Swann and then play Anderson, Onions and Harmy. It's harsh on Broad but Harmy is a potential match-winner at the Oval.
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Strauss
Trescothick
Cook
Bopara/Bell
Collingwood
Prior
Flintoff (Harmison further down the order if Flintoff's unfit)
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Onions.
This goes against the point of this article, but if England are going to bring someone back for 1 test only a guy who averages 27 in tests is not the answer, go the whole hog and bring Trescothick back, a wonderful test opener who's not too old and has continued to score a huge amount of runs at Somerset.
Having Bopara or Bell is acceptable, but the problem is that having them both makes the middle order look incredibly weak. Talk of Key or Trott is misplaced, they merely highlight England's lack of options in the middle-order because they are not stand-out prospects and I see no reason to believe that they will be more effective than the incumbents.
The Oval may well be condusive to spin but England should not, under any circumstances, revert to Monty Panesar - he is not good enough, doesn't understand the game enough, has no variation and is not a match winner. Australia only have one spinner, and although it hasn't always looked like in this series, Swann is a superior bowler to him (Hauritz) so England should have edge in the spin department.
A case can be made for Sidebottom ahead of Broad but given the troubles nearer to the top of the order Broad coming in at 8 is a welcome sight for England.
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Surely Trescothick isn't a viable option? He's been unavailable to play for the last three years. I'm not sure anything's changed - beyond the fact we've never really replaced him at the top of the order...
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Strauss
Cook
Key
Ramprakash
Collingwood/Shah (or if we can tempt Gower out of retirement....)
Prior (still one place too high)
Flintoff (on two legs, on one, or on none - doesn't matter, he's playing)
Swann
Harmison
Larwood
Trueman
Really not sure who to go with as the other two seam bowlers, though suspect the three seamers will instead be Anderson, Onions and Broad, the latter of which is not a Test class bowler, despite his six-fer, and has a long way to go before he becomes one - he's being picked because he can score runs at eight, which is patently absurd. All three will be meat and drink to the Aussies on a flat Oval pitch - any serious speedsters out there that might have half a chance of ruffling a feather or two?
If Key, a proper number three as opposed to the current occupent, doesn't make the side this time, he never will again - and I would love to see Ramps back in there for this one game, scoring a ton on his home ground and reminding the cricketing world what he could have been with a) better management from the ECB and b) a half-decent sports shrink would could have calmed him down.
Would also love to see Banger in there, and he was apparently sounded out about making a return, but said no - am sure it broke his heart to do so, but that chapter's sadly closed.
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I posted this on Tom's other blog
For those who think "The Oval will suit Harmison" or "Harmy is a potential match-winner at the Oval", check his figures for the Oval Test of 2005.
http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/218383.html
Have a look at Bell's contribution in the same test.
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Some people forget Ramps has ALWAYS scored runs at county level regardless of wether its been in Div 1 or Div 2, I'm sure Bopara or Bell would love to be half the bastsman Ramprakash is. As for the Oval treat it as a one off match winner takes all and let that determine selection, this match does not determine the future of English cricket or the present english players careers in the the long term, should always pick the players in the best form, same rules apply in any sport.......if the shoe was on the other foot the aussies would'nt think twice about putting Ramps in if they needed to as its all about winning and giving yourself the best chance......to be honest I'm sick of hear all this mindless drivel about Ramps not being good enough if he had been aussie he'd have been in there team all this and be a class leading run scorer, he would have been treat right, it was and has always been the downfall of Ramps the way he was handled from very early on by the english selectors, we had potentially one of the best batsmen of his generation and the selectors screwed him up........the so called experts on TV and radio arn't much better they talk a load of dross half the time anyway.
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Ravi can't bat at 3. If Strauss and Cook don't put on a 70 or better stand then the collapse would be on straight away. We need someone solid. I wish Tresco was ok in the head then it would be easy pushing Cook down to 3. But he isn't so, it has to be Bell, Key or Ramps! Don't thinks Ramps is a great idea at this stage so either swap Bell and Ravi or bring in Key.
Bowling wise, drop Onions for Fred if fit. Otherwise Siders for Onions.
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Why not copy what the Aussies did? Put an all rounder further up the batting order. I would keep the existing 11 bar injuries and also assuming that the pitch is not going to be doctored for spin only.
Promote Broad to no. 3, Bopara to no. 4. This means the Aussie pace attack facing three left handers one after the other, and for some reason they prefer bowling to right handers. It is a risk and Broad may have to curb his temperament but as he has beaten his father's record in Ashes Test matches held in England it might be a worthwhile gambit to pursue.
Tactically England need to improve, Ponting was in a different league compared to Strauss and the England coaching staff. In 2005 England seemed to have a set plan to bowl to each Aussie batsman, now for the newer Aussie players England's approach is haphazrd - the backroom coching staff have not done their homework!
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Typical England - one defeat and suddenly it all needs changing. Harmy should never have played at headingley but I think he may do a job at the Oval. I also think the best department england has over the aussies is spin and so I'd get the groundsman to prepare a flat dustbowl that will offer very little to their 4 seam attack and play monty and swann and hope that we can spin it to win it. I know this tactic didn't work in cardiff but I honestly can't see how else we can beat them now they've hit form - their batsmen and bowlers are far more confident than ours.
Our batting is a problem but I honestly can't see who would do much better if they came in - Ramps is playing in div 2 against total dross and so he just can't be considered, key has never taken any other chance in the past so why would he succeed now? Anyone else would be a gamble that isn't worth taking. One change could be dropping bopara down to 5 with colly and bell moving up one. The fact of the matter is that bopara probably isn't good enough yet but he will learn so much from this series and so has to be given the chance to see it through.
The team needs to be something like: strauss, cook, bell, colly, bopara, prior, freddie (god willing), onions, swann, jimmy, monty. With broad for fred if he doesn't pull through. It's tough on broad to be dropped but if the tactics are for a spinning, flat wicket i can't see his bowling being missed and we can't keep him in just for his batting!
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Chris Tremlett should be in with a shout in place of Harmison I believe, he may not have as many wickets in the County Championship this year, but he is far more consistent and even taller than Harmy, he could cause the aussies really problems.
This is if Freddie isn't fit mind...
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I wish we could stop seeing Harmison as an alternative to Flintoff - thats one of the first mistakes England's selectors made at Headingley.
Harmison should play - or not - on his merits as a fast bouncy bowler on a fast bouncy pitch.
If Flintoff's not fit, a separate call needs to be made about the balance of the side.
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SputnikIV: Spot on about Collingwood.
I find it quite amazing how many people call for his head every time he has a bad innings when a quick check of his stats would set them right.
Even this series he had 3 fifties in five innings, was our second top scorer and was averaging 45.
Doesn't make him Tendulkar i'll grant you but it's not like we have a glut of world class batsmen pushing for his place.
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I think we should bring ramprakash back drop bopara and play freddie we need to get the team right theres no second chance.I think that its a pity sir ian cant play or wed have the aussies licked!!
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I like the idea of playing two spinners, playing the one trump card that we have and that Australia lack. If the pitch does turn, it's a series-winning masterstroke. If not, well, Swann and Panesar are actually both pretty good bowlers anyway, so you've lost very little.
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Haha genius, Broad not a test class bowler despite a six-fer when all our other bowlers (only anderson with an excuse) were bowling tripe! how is that not test class? We need to actually start supporting the players representing our country rather than just bitching about them, the crowd needs to be our 12th man!
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Cant believe people are saying keep Bopara and put him at 5 or 4 and let him rebuild his confidence! This is IT guys, THE ASHES, theres no building for tomorrow.
England have been increasingly outplayed with top of batting order pitfiul - and without lower middle order wagging could have been in big trouble at Edgbaston too, weather allowing, as well as of course Cardiff and Headingley.
Drop failures Bell Bopara and Colly (although they wont drop him) and bring in Key, Ramps and Trott. Ok if they fail they fail no more so than the others have already.
Bowling is a concern too with over-reliance on bowlers that the Aussies seem to have worked out unless the pitch is totally in their favour, Onins and Anderson, and I dont think the Oval will be. OK these guys are erratic but Harmison seems to do well at the Oval and seems to take wickets and I would throw Monty back in too. We have to somehow take 20 wickets and these guys could do it. Maybe keep Anderson in if he gets hot and pitch looks suitable. So go with Fred, Harmison (or Anderson), Swann, Monty, Broad.
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Ravi has not just had a bad day at the office - he's hit rock bottom of a nightmare summer. The only people with worse series averages are Monty and Onions, who both bat at 11.
How could you possibly select him to go in at 3 in a must-win game?
It's not panicking to drop someone who's performing that poorly, it's just sanity.
He needs time out for his own sake and England's - and with a bit of luck he can make a triumphant return in the winter, as an Ashes winning veteran.
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I think the point that Hayden and Tuffers alluded to is you can;t drop 4 or 5 players all of a sudden because of one match
Bell only been back in the side
Onions and Anderson did they not tore the Aussies to shreds at Edgbaston
Bopara - the only one who probably will be dropped because his run has been consistently poor
Harmison - his last chance saloon has gone as he wasted it after getting KAtich out bowling tripe
We are forgetting who wants to be thrown into the Lion's den knowing the last test has high stakes in claiming the Ashes
The match ending early means some players might now get some match practice which would not have happened had the Headingley match gone the full 5 days
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re 32
i was one for dropping him (collingwood) aswell but now you mention it he as been quite decent for us compared to bopara and bell so i keep him and maybe promote him to no 4.
i also think we shud bring back panesar and drop harmison because i was never for harmison coming back in the first place and possibly play 2 spinners if flintoff is fit i say drop the unfit anderson so we have a pace attack of flintoff, broad and onions and with broad and flintoff we have 2 decent all rounders in there aswell promote broad to 7 and flintoff to no 8.
drop bopara and bell like i sed and bring in ramps and trott and my team would be
strauss, cook, ramps, collingwood, trott, prior, broad, flintoff, swann, onions, and panesar
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Owais Shah failed in the Caribbean when Bopara was scoring runs so that hardly makes him an inspired alternative. Bopara has been hopeless, Bell has been worst and Collingwood not much better.
As for the mugs who claim Broad has proven himself, all Broad has proved is what anyone with any sense already knew, when the pressure is off he manages to lift himself up into the mediocre category and when the pressure is on he's utterly useless. Bowling and batting when your team has absolutely no chance of saving a match is not pressure because if you fail no one will care.
If you bring a player in to play at the Oval it proves very little, If Key or Ramps scored a hundred on that batsmans paradise do you think it means he would of done the same at Headingly?
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I agree with "excellentcatblogger", get broad at no.3. And for people saying Key/Ram, this is not county cricket, ashes. Freddie in, Harmy out, keep the rest, just change the batting order. I think that will be enough to win.
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Has anyone asked Ramps if he wants to play? He's been badly managed by the selectors before and I wouldn't be suprised if he refused.
I'd rather keep the squad as it is than bring in a selection that smacks of desperation. No not Key.
RE selecting to bat for the last test. I think that was a toss you would have wanted to lose!
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There is no need for knee-jerk reaction here. After all, this was the team which won the lord's test. Losing one, albeit pathetically doesn't need wholesale changes.
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Why stop at Ramprakash? Why not Brian Close, David Steele and the late Colin Cowdrey to shore up the middle order? Then Charlotte Edwards for Harmison, Alan Johnson to keep wicket and Bruce Forsyth for Alistair Cook. No Freddie Flintoff? No worries, pick Tom Daley instead, that'll get the kids in and he has a cheeky grin.
Honestly, this armchair selecting really gets my goat. You aren't going to solve the weaknesses of English cricket by hysterical panic-selecting. In fact, hysteria and panic basically ARE the weaknesses of English cricket. Pick Flintoff if available, decide on the final eleven based on conditions and take the fight to the Australians on the pitch. If we lose, so be it, but stop this whingeing and faffing about.
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So how many people think England, whatever team they eventually go for, will win at The Oval?
Arm in a half-nelson, I'd say an Aussie win is most likely, followed by a draw, followed by an England win. Not rocket science, but there you go.
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The only changes I would make are Bell and Harmison OUT. Key and Flintoff in. Stick with Bopara, we know he has the ability.
My team would be:
Strauss (c)
Cook
Bopara
Key
Collingwood
Prior (w)
Flintoff
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Onions
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I'd call for Collingwood to be dropped, not because I actually want him to be ahead of anyone else, but because he always seems to get a big score just when the calls for him to be dropped are loudest...
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I wouldn't change too much - Probably bring in Key. I think having Bopara, bell is too risky if wickets fall, and we had discussed this at work prior to the 1st morning session. Maybe think about putting Collingwood up to 4 to give more protection, if we are doing well when the wicket falls think about putting Collingwood down the order, and then Bell or Bopara at 5 (probably Bell on county form and that Bopara's confidence is shot.)
Then Prior, Flintoff, Broad( deserves to stay after last display), Swann, Onions and Anderson
Shame I can only play 11!!
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gillian21: Considering how many people have been calling for Trescothick to be brought back, I don't think we should rule out Sir Ian. I mean, he keeps fit, still has a bit of a bat once in a while and knows a bit about how to get after the Aussies. Granted, he has said that he's retired from Test cricket and will never play for England again but that's just what Tresco said and people want him back.
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How many runs does Bopara not have to score before he is replaced. it is a question of form and confidence.
Bopara may well have a great future with England and Bell can still score runs on his day, however they are both vulnerable and the Australians know it.
Collingwood is also suffering at the moment.England need strength in depth, players should not think they will be picked automatically.
Why not mix it up and put in some different players, maybe surprise the Aussies, its a one off test, put out a one off team to win.
England will need to get together and regroup and mentally prepare as they will need to go out and at Australia agressively, the first day will be crucial.
Geoff, Andy F please consider the following team -
Strauss
Cook
Key
Ramprakash
Trott
Flintoff (Anderson if unfit)
Prior
Broad
Swann/Panesar
Sidebottom
Onions
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Those saying there's no need for change are missing a big point, Bopara and Bell have only ever got runs against weak opposition or when someone else has already got on top of them.
They're not going to win a game against decent opposition.
The problem is the lack of replacement, both Key and Ramps have inflated figures from batting on good tracks against Div 2 bowling.
Even Vaughan's batting was better than Bopara and Bell - and his captiancy was in a different league to Strauss'.
Remember this is the team that lost in the W.Indies; sure they won the return, in May with the W.Indies not bothered and waiting for the 20-20. but the away series defeat was due to a batting collapse, negative captiance and ineffective bowling.
Anderson is crucial, and he needs to have 1 of his good days...
Broad may have got a 6 for, but plenty of those were due to the Aussies looking to get quick runs... those were not the kind of wickets that win games.
Performance wise it was about even up to Headingly, with the Aussies suffering from dire umpiring decisions and England saving a game; now the Aussies are in the ascendency, their side is more balanced with Clark in the attack and the batting (other than Hussey) is coming together... England are in trouble.
Its not just the scores Bell (despite the lucky 50) and Bopara have got, its how they've batted; looking like rabbits in the headlights..
Australia are nothing like the side they once were, but then nor are England, remember we'd one 6 series in a row before 2005.
Stranger things have happened than if England win at the Oval, but its not looking likely.
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no 45 Will we win?
Im not giving up hope. But selection is key!
The Oval has often been a stronghold for England. Sometimes its been our only win in a series (ok when maybe the opposition have taken foot off pedal after winning already) or we have clinched series there.
The Aussies have been getting better and tweaking at the right times to peak - so far - but we have often seen this series teams playing well and then falling back in the next match. Sometimes a fight in defeat or draw has led to something good in the next game. Witness how England came back after fighting in Cardiff on to Lords. The Aussies did well at the end of Edgbaston and Lords and this help them go forward. England did do well with Swann and Broad on the last day at Leeds.
If we get our selection right we can take the initative and bite back hard.
This Aussie team is still quite inexperienced in England and the Oval will be another new test for them and clinching the series should be made as tought as possible and let's see how they cope.
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We must win this test match and the top-middle order has to be changed.
Bell is just too weedy and uninspiring, surely? Wetter than a fishes wet bits as Black Adder would say. He's out for next to nothing or he makes just fifty. Well it isn't enough is it?
Bopara reminds me of Graham Hick - great when dominating, he rips you to shreds... but ask a few questions? Nil returns. It's not just me - hands up all those that hung there heads when he made three centuries earlier against the West Indies and realised we'd be lumbered all ashes series with him? His technique isn't test match stndard - never has been.
And hey, I love Collingwood and his attitude - I want to keep him. But he's SO manufactured and Professor Yaffle wooden. I also think the Aussies have worked him out you know, that's the worst fo me. I'd still keep him but then I think I'm too sentimental there.
So, the new side? In comes Key who has the temperament at least. Ramps fans - sorry, true they mucked him about as well and made him open but he was a wimp as well, you must remember. I'm sick of wimpy England cricketers - is nobody else? We need a few more Robin Smiths!
Bowlers? Not bad but no direction, personally or practically. If fit, I'd keep what we have, even Harmison - lazy lummox though he is he can be a match winner. Onions? Well, if he were a bag of crisps he'd be PLAIN rather than Cheese and 'onion' but he adds some variety and has done everything asked and taken a few.
One last MUST - This is 1-1 in The Ashes and this is the decider and FLINTOFF MUST PLAY! How could he possibly NOT play unless he can't stand up?
So..... Side for Oval:
Strauss
Cook
Key
Prior
Collingwood
Flintoff
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Harmison
Onions
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Ravi is not a number 3, his technique is not tight enough and he goes for his shots too much to cope with the new ball. He does have a future for England, at 4 or 5 maybe. This is a one-off, winner takes all match and his confidence must be shot after the series he has had. Give him a break, but tell him he will be back if he gets some runs for his county -just like the Aussies did with Hughes.
We need a solid number 3 with experience - I'd lean towards Key, who can also help Strauss on the pitch as a knowledgeable skipper in his own right.
Give Bell another chance as it would be harsh to drop him again so quickly and I don't see any outstanding alternatives. Giving someone a debut in a match like this would be crazy.
Other than that, Freddie, even on one leg, has to come back in, maybe for Harmy or even Onions - they need to take a good look at the pitch and weather forecast to decide. No point bringing back Monty - as Warne says, he has not played 30 odd tests, just the same test 30 odd times. He has not developed.
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Don't listen to Haydn when he talks of two spinners - blatant deception tactics. Panesar has had his day for now, so who else - Rashid? Come on, talk about a lamb to slaughter in such an important game.
In my view, two changes must occur. Trott for Bopara and Flintoff for Harmison. If England play at their very best and with the same discipline, consistency and belief as at Lords, we have a 50/50 chance of winning. Unless the weather is poor, I don't believe there will be a draw. This is a Cup Final and a result is inevitable. England must win, so they need to be aggressive with all guns firing and rattle the Australian cage early on.
My team for the forthcoming Oval epic would be:
Strauss
Cook
Bell
Trott
Prior (w)
Flintoff
Collingwood
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Onions
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Shame the dead-in-the-head selectors don't have the balls to put Ramps in. Who cares if we win or lose the Ashes, we can't be proud of our performance.
It's time to go back to when England knew how to win things. Fighting with the best men in the field - all other criteria in the bin.
With the backroom staff staying up all night preparing a bowling attack to annhialate each of the aussie batsman.
I don't care who wins the ashes as long as 11 English men turn up with their balls.
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Stunning! The amount of drivel some posters spout on this blog. You don't understand the first thing about runnning a team , building team spirit in the long term. You should be ashamed of your panicked responses. Yes, the team played poorly but they were selected for the right reasons in the first place & the players/coaches have got to show some character & turn the situation around.
Selecting Ramps is NOT the way forward.
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I saw Michael Vaughan talking about Trent Bridge 2005 on that other TV channel yesterday. He said "the support at Edgebaston, Old Trafford and Trent Bridge really lifts the England team .....". So the ECB hold Ashes tests elsewhere! For other test series (ex. Sth Africa perhaps) no problems with other grounds but the Ashes must be Lords, Edgebaston, Old Trafford, Trent Bridge and the Oval. The Aussies stick to Brisbane, Sydney, Adelaide, Melbourne and Perth every time.
My team for the Oval
Collingwood at 3
Bopara 4
Bell 5
Onions out Panesar in
Flintoff for Harmison if fit.
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Bell and Bopara should go. This is a one off, must win game for England and patently Bopara and Bell are short of confidence at the moment. Bell is not up to it at international level, in much the same way as Ramprakash wasn't up to it. Bopara should be given another chance, but I would prefer to see him pushed down the order. My preference would be for Rob Key to come in at 3, Collingwood to move up to 4 and Bopara to slot in at 5. If Freddie is fit, he comes in for Harmison, if not a decision needs to be made about the pitch and whether you play Harmison, Sidebottom or Panesar.
So....
Strauss
Cook
Key
Collingwood
Bopara
Prior
Flintoff/Harmison
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Onions/Panesar
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Let Cook captin the Oval side and bat at 3. New on form batsman at 2 sat Trott.R eplace Steve Harmison, Bopara for Collingwood the rest the same. No place for Flintoff even if he thinks he is fit sorry he plays for himself not the team now.
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Ah, these armchair selectors who think they know it all. Australia made one key change by bringing in Watson and it worked. If we make wholesale changes for the Oval I believe it will destroy team morale. Okay, bring in Freddy if he's totally fit, drop Harmiston and bring in a number 3 who can hold the innings together. Who I don't know. Having said all that I think the Aussies are peaking and will destroy us next week. They're a lot better than the media would have us believe.
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A few comments have cracked me up, one guy saying play strauss and prior and 9 bowlers lol!! and another guy saying broad at 3!! Hes the only one doing anything with the bat so why not? Graham napier to come in if freddie can't play? bag sum runs quickly? I'm not a cricket expert i'll be honest but he can score runs quickly can't he. ALso if he'll play definitely get trescothick in, i started watching cricket in ashes 2005, and he was so assured and dominant, he also seemed to inspire strauss as well.
Strauss
Trescothick
Cook
Flintoff if fit
collingwood
prior
napier
broad
swann
sidebottom
onions
Am i crazy?
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SoftandFluffy@55: In what way is bringing Trott into this bearpit of expectation not going to be the same "lamb to the slaughter" as Rashid? This is not the Test for new caps. And how can it not be a draw? Every first-class match played there this season has been a draw and since the Aussies only need a draw, it has to be almost certain that they'll get 600 off their first innings, turn us over for 400+ and then bat til lunch on the 5th day.
rideforever@56: The selectors care if we win the Ashes. You may not like it but actually they would prefer us to play like wimps and win rather than play like gladiators and lose. The win is everything to them.
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Team morale what about supporters morale. I do not think there is any team morale in the England side too many people from 2005 trying to be the captain and too many players trying to play when they are not fit. Thats my guess at things. Make Cook captain things will get better. Struss has not got the backbone to be captain. A firm hand is whats needed.
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Why is young Bopara being used as the escape goat. He is the youngest batsman in this 11.Given a massive responsibility at 3. Bell/Collingwood have batted as poorly too, even having played 2 previous Ashes ,but they are not being targeted. We must give Ravi support, more understanding and allow him to complete this series. He is Asian and with such a background, he is also a fighter. Phil Tufnell is right, we must rally behind him to cheer him and increase his confidence. He will After all he had already produced 3 (100's) in this position when he was asked to bat at 3 following the massive England defeat in the West Indies, and helped Endland win the home test series recently
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I really can't believe the flack Harmison is coming in for. Notwithstanding the fact that he may just have been asked to try and bounce Aurstralia out at Headingley, a good number of people seem to be disregarding the fact that, to win back The Ashes, England have to bowl Australia out twice at The Oval.
To do that we need an attack capable of getting 20 wickets and, love him or loathe him, the fact remains that no batsman in the world likes facing genuine pace and Harmison is no trundler. And he put the skids under Australia when playing for The Lions only weeks ago.
I would go with the same attack at The Oval, only changing it if Flintoff is fit in which case I think Onions or Anderson should make way (my choice would be the latter, who has flattered to deceive far more than Harmison has ever done).
It is the middle order where changes are needed, but England simply cannot drop all three of them which means Collingwood is safe. Bopara and Bell to get the chop for me, with any two of Ramprakash, Key, Trott or Denly to come in, although I would be reluctant to give two debuts in such a crucial game as it would give Australia a further lift (not that they need one).
The alternative, although it is never going to happen, is to plead with Trescothick.............
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No.65, I agree. Colly/Cook/Bell should take more of the blame than Bopara.
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Bopara has to go, but I'm not sure anyone else does. With the need to win rather than draw, Flintoff could come straight in to replace Bopara (albeit lower down the order) in an otherwise unchanged side.
Then again, that means you have to put Bell at 3... or maybe Collingwood. Yes, Collingwood is a fighter so I'd put him at 3. Thus:
Strauss
Cook
Collingwood
Bell
Prior
Flintoff
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Onions
Harmison
Some might say the tail's too long, but right now the tail is batting better than the middle order! Plus, six bowlers provides lots of variety in attack, and allows Flintoff to be saved for short spells - which is all I'd be prepared to give him anyway.
Keeping most of the same personnel but reorganising in the process means there's a sense of shock to the system, but the Aussies can't pounce on the perception of 'panic'.
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Bopara is being used as a scape goat because you are not allowed to say anyone that was part of the 2005 team cannot play at test level. The truth is there is little support for new players in the England set up. It was only a week ago people wanted Broad out he was the bad boy now look.
Bell Collingwood Harmison Flintoff should all go new players for the next test. They should have all gone 2 years ago.
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Is one of the problems nowadays that with the advent of so much "Quick Scoring " one day cricket, too many English batsmen forget that a test match lasts 5 days. They are playing far too many balls as though they are in a run chase from the off.
It seems to me that as run rates in test cricket have rocketed, English batsmen have forgotten how to "build" an innings. How many centuries scored by the Aussies compared to England ?.
As with football, technique ultimately is the key to how good a player is, and how far a team can go, thats why England will never win the WC (before you say they have got a 100% qualifying record, hey look at the opposition and how often have they deceived to flatter in real competition in the last few years)
Look at Spain, they were too small a side they said ? They have technique.
Technique will get you everywhere, and technique includes knowing where your stumps are, and it seems to me that apart from lack of patience in building an innings, even if they could master that English batsmen dont know where their stumps are.
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My team (and England's hopes) are dependent on Flintoff being fit. I would bring in Key and Trott for Bell and Bopara. I would open with Key and drop Cook down to 3 where he originally came into the side. Collingwood would bat at 4 for a bit of added responsability which he seems to enjoy. Trott would bat at 5, with the rest basically picking themselves. If Flintoff is unfit I would pick either Harmison or Panesar depending on the surface.
Strauss
Key
Cook
Collingwood
Trott
Prior
Flintoff
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Onions
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I am sure Bopara will have a future but why are people defending him so.
The stats show he has underperformed and needs to be replaced and this goes for any player KP and strauss included.
Were the same people shouting for previous young talent that has been dropped and almost forgotten after "not performing" - Plunkett, Tremlett , Shah etc
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Colly looks well out of form needs to drop out with Key coming in at 3 and Bopara dropping into Colly's spot. I don't see Bopara as a 3 he's too loose against the new'ish ball. Bell's problems with playing round his front pad have to be solved before he will contribute as his talent demands. I'd stick with him for this next match. Fred in for Harmie who bowls as if he doesn't have a cricket brain at all.
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jay_jamie_matt - yes you are!
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i think the squad should be chosen on the type of ground they are playing on if the oval plays like lords did then onions, anderson, sidebottom,harmison and broad should bowl with flintoff (if fit) i think the team should be:
Strauss
Cook
Bell (he has scored 64 in 3 innings compared to bopara's 105 in 7)
colly
ian Blackwell/flintoff
prior
anderson
onions
sidebottom/swann
harmison
broad
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1. Andrew Strauss
2. Alistair Cook
3. Rob Key
4. Stephen Moore
5. Ravi Bopara
6. Matt Prior
7. Andrew Flintoff (as long as he is fit)
8. Stuart Broad
9. Graeme Swann
10. Ryan Sidebottom
11. James Anderson (as long as he is fit)
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57 'building team spirit in the long term'
you miss the point. We've been trying to do the above for ages, trying to play the 'oh it's ok he'll be good in the future card'.
But the tomorrows are here NOW and we have to win NOW. And we won't with flimsy players like Bell and Bopara remaining there and failing. Team spirit will only take you so far. Ability and results are required NOW.
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To answer Tom's question about what will happen in the match... oh what the hell - England win!
The fact we've just been hammered in the last match doesn't mean we can't win at the Oval.
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Those people asking why Bopara is being scapegoated, perhaps this link will help - it's the English batting averages for the series in descending order:
http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/averages/batting_bowling_by_team.html?id=4249;team=1;type=series
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We must not panic. Bopara is England's future.Please,please rally behind him. This will cheer and inspire him. We seem to have forgotten he came back from the IPL (where he was Man of the Match) ,full of beans . And he followed this with 2 test 100's.During the winter, he was also flown while playing for the Eng lions in NZto replace poorly performly Bell in the West Indies. He must have felt so honoured and excited that he scored his first Test 100.We do not want to punish him with humiliating exit without giving him a chance to do something amazing in the Oval which we are confident he will deliver.
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The Ashes are important.But to regularly win future games of cricket against other nations is more important.If England are going to win against other nations, they must stick to the same current squad ! Yes bring in Freddie of course and KP if possible. But stick to BOP No:3 and let Bell tinker along to the tunes of his critics. Let them take the pressure to prove themselves as regulars in the England team.This is exactly what a TEST is all about !
The whole side after all are made up of players from different counties. They need to work as a unit,instead of as strangers just getting to know each other.Most importantly, the Aussies need to know that England is not panicking ! Chopping and changing simply creates the same pressure on the new incoming players.The summer will be over soon and the Ashes will be fought for once again in the future.But there is more cricket to be played against other nations and the ones who started this summer must finish the show and be given the best possible loyalty by all !Physical fitness issues are the only reasons for making a change.
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After going to the test match at Headingley I was disgusted by Englands performance with the bat and the ball. We seemed to lack any sort of class, and looked like we should have been playing at county division two level! I think changes have to be made- this would be my team for the Oval.
Strauss
Cook
Key
Colly
Bopara/Ramprakash- Havent made my mind up yet!
Prior
Flintoff (if fit- otherwise we've lost)
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Sidebottom
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Pot@78: It might improve our chances of winning. There's also every chance that it could turn into just the sort of bare-knuckle, gritted-teeth scrap that suits Collingwood and Flintoff. If Bopara is to stay in the team then drop him to 5, Colly up to 3 and leave Bell at 4 or replace him with Key.
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Move Ravi UP the order into 2nd. Keep everything else the same, with Freddie in for Bell.
The problem has been that as soon as the first wicket falls, it's gone quickly downhill. If Ravi's in the opening partnership he'll benefit from Strauss' calming influence and last longer... and when he does fall, Cook has the right technique and understanding with Strauss to stay at the crease for a while and keep the boat steady.
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England lack confidence in their batting without KP and need more strength. Key can pay back more than the Aussies give him, and Trott is in form.
Strauss
Cook
Key
Trott
Prior
Collingwood
Flintoff
Broad
Swann
Anderson (if not fit, Sidebottom)
Onions
It's Freddie's last game, so he'll take all 10 wickets before he's stretchered off.
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Following the failure of England’s middle order in the current Ashes Series there have been talks of England re calling veteran Mark Ramprakash for the 5th and final Test Match at the Oval.
http://www.oddsbet.co.uk/taxonomy/term/619
England lost the 4th Test Match at Headignley by an innings and 80 runs as Australia levelled the series at 1-1.
Middle order batsmen Ravi Bopara,Ian Bell and Paul Collingwood only managed 16 runs between them in the match.
http://oddsbet.typepad.com/odds-bet/cricket/
Ramprakash who scored the 108th 1st class century of his career has been in sublime for Surrey once again this season, he currently averages over 100 this season.
Given Ramprakash’s superb form and experience picking the 39 year old for the 5th Test could well be a very shrewd move by England.
As well as his sublime form another thing Ramprakash has in his favour is the fact that is that the Oval has been his home ground since 2001, when he became a Surrey player.
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Is it me or has everybody overlooked Luke Wright? I mean, he played well in the T20 World Cup and has proved he can play test match style cricket by hitting the runs for Leicestershire. He's young, talented and confident. Surely he is what England need right now! To be honest I thought he should have been in from Test 1, what does everybody else think to maybe selecting Luke Wright?
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Why oh why are the England selectors missing the obvious? Bopara can't bat against the new ball! He's never been able to, and putting him at number 3 is just ludicrous! I think the smaller number of changes the better, but some people just have to go. I'd go for two changes; Bell has been found out and has no chance against Johnson when he swings the ball back into his legs and Harmison has never been able to bowl consistently for England. Bring in Trott at number 3, push Colly to 4 and Bopara can bat at 5. This will relieve the pressure on Bopara and he can come in with a few runs on the board (hopefully) against an old ball. Do the obvious of swapping Harminson for Flintoff (who will definitely play, even if he only has one leg) and you're there:
Strauss
Cook
Trott
Collingwood
Bopara
Flintoff
Prior
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Onions
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This is not about the future it's about a one off game to win back The Ashes, so pick players on form.
My 11 =
Strauss (c)
Cook
Key
Ramps
Prior
Fred
Broad
Foster (wk)
Swann
Anderson
Onions
Put Prior in as a batsman and let Foster take the gloves..
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Sorry but where do people think Key canmake it at Test level when he hardly sets the world alight at division 2 level. He has a career average of only 41 and this season 50! Hardly gives one confidence that he is the new messiah of the English Middle Order.
May be he just gets board of the tosh thats bowled to him in Div 2 or he loses concentration as he dreams of better things (eg lunch), why do people think he will make it at test level when he is just slightly better than average in Div 2!
If he has "got the temprament and technique" he should be averaging much higher!
Explanations please!
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Full marks Tuffers for positive thinking - and I agree that this is a side that is ultra-sensitive to change. But quite frankly Harmison is a has-been but who else is there (replacement for Freddie...don't make me laugh). However above all Bopara has not risen to the task. Trott has attitude and something to prove - now would be a good time to give him a place. I guess the Pattinson debacle has made the selectors a bit squeamish, but the guy has a fantastic average, brilliant attitude (and he's a Saffer too!). Get him into Pietersen's place and keep Bell, who on his day is a performer.
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Theres so much panic on here its incredible. Will someone remind me what the score is please?! Oh yeah...thats right...its 1-1 with a game to play. Basically, whoever wins this game wins the Ashes. What a finale. Would all the English fans have taken 1-1 going into the final game? Ofcourse they would.
Flintoff if fit will be a huge boost and i fully expect him to come back in for Harmison and oh yeah...thats right...it will be the team that won at Lords then. Certain people have such short memories. Yes...we got absolutely pummelled at Headingley but ever since the last day at Cardiff we have been in the driving seat. We should tell these lads that they have made a mess and that they should go and make up for it. Go and prove all these people who are slating them (who probably dont have a clue about cricket really) that they are wrong. As soon as England dont do well theres a huge panic bandwagon thats set up.
Im not a fool, Bopara has disappointed me. Hes class and head and shoulders above many otheres in our domestic game but hasnt kicked on from a promising early summer. However, he really is one big score away and im backing him to produce at the Oval. He should be given a chance and not chucked away. Bell is in a similar category having been handed a chance and dont tell me Key would have been a better option. There are young talented players like Hildreth and Denly but they arent yet in his class. Still, he needs to produce something good at the Oval as Trott is knocking on the door for the future tours.
Broad has been getting alot of stick too. Yes his bowling hasnt been what it should be but hes just got 6 wickets and is our 2nd leading wicket taker. He also played a sublime and exciting innings on the last day. He is always improving and trying to do things, his heart and character are huge and this latest pwerformance actually might have been the catelyst he needed. Dropping him now certainly would be a big mistake.
Lets just get behind this same bunch of players that have fought their way to 1-1 in the series and back them until the very end of the 5th day at the Oval. Following the match and looking at the result we can then look forword to the future and any necessary changes.
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Please do not panic. Bopara and Bell will deliver at the Oval with 100's. Keep the chosen team intact. Any replacement will not guarantee any improvement and is a sign of panic. Decisions following such hysteria and making young Ravi an escapegoat will all end in tears and recrimations.We are surprised how excited the Sky panel of Gower/Botham/Warne were hurriedly behaving like gods and telling all of us that by pinpointing Ravi as the escapegoat England is guaranteed to win back the Ashes. We implore the selectors and the 2 Andys to keep their heads, and keep faith in the team they have kept unchanged .We commend this confidence/loyalty.
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There is no need to panic. Bringing back a player who has failed at test cricket is not an option. Are there any batsmen out there who have succeeded in test cricket before who we can call on? The only one who has any sort of record is Rob Key who is mentally tough according to the players who have played with him. That leaves the question who to drop. Ravi Bopara is a talent but he clearly the pressure of the series has got to him. Witness how he changed his game after the first test rather than sticking to what has got him to the test side in the first place. We should stick with him though and simply tell him that we are backing him. He has only had around eleven tests and has shown class in those. Sticking with him will tell us whether he has the gumption to be successful... On the other hand Ian Bell is someone who has had around forty tests and not produced. He has come in for Pietersen and not convinced yet again. I would go for a batting line up as follows.
Strauss
Cook
Key
Bopara
Collingwood.
Hopefully Flintoff is fit in which case stick with him and Prior batting at seven. The challenge then is to see whether they can bowl as well as they have at times. England are a frustrating side to watch when fielding as they have produced brilliant spells but then eight aussies have got hundreds which looking at the pitches they have played on is ridiculous. Stick with Broad who is getting better, have the pace and bounce of Flintoff and hopefully Swann can come to the party (as the old Fletcher adage had it) as he has threatened to do but then failed to follow through when it has mattered. Sidebottom for Anderson if his hamstring fails...
Langer's comment about Anderson being a pussy was rather well timed in light of how poorly he bowled at Headingley....
I do hope England win but this series has served to confirm how special 2005 was when it felt like there were two great teams competing..
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Whats this madness about upsetting or humiliating players if they are dropped!
They are grown sportsmen and need to realise that they are playing at the highest level, if they dont perform then somebody else should be given a chance.
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Dumbpanic - you have a strange definition of "panic". Dropping a player like Bopara who's been awful all summer doesn't strike me as panicking, it strikes me as sensible.
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strauss
cook
key
shah
collingwood
prior
flintoff
broad
swann
anderson
harmison
England need to win and they can't do this unless they take 20 wickets. This is the only track on which I would ever pick harmison in UK. The rest is as good a mix of stroke making/stability as we have got and includes 4 genuine all-rounders.
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"Stick with the same team" ... surely you are joking.
This is really an English thing to say. Everything is done so damn slowly here. Just like with the IPL - England was damn slow to react. India is laughing as they take the lead in the Twenty20 form of the game. England ... England is still waiting 25 years for MCC membership !
Bopara had 4 (F-O-U-R) chances, and failed. Goodbye.
(Come back in 12 months maybe)
It should be : "You do well - you're in. You do badly - you're out." None of this, oh well he's a really great guy - who cares. Oh well he's done well in the past - who cares. "Can he win today ?" - that is the only question.
"We need to build a team" ... What, a team of losers ? That's what we have done, built a team of crumblers and losers. To crumble twice at headingley with the bat - pathetic, not in terms of skill, but in terms of attitude and courage. And the other tests haven't been pretty for the mostpart either. You'd think we were short of options within the country - that's not the case.
What we need to build is courage, determination and performance. And if there is someone on the team who can't deal with a bit of change, if they are tooooo sensitive and it would upset them, they are in the wrong game.
Too damn sensitive. Too damn weak.
I'm moving to Australia, you can be proud of that team.
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i think that harmison should be kept in the 11 as we could use him to attack the aussies by bowling balls where the have to either be forced to play a shot the didnt want to play or having to get out of the way of the ball then if there rhythm has been lost thats where broad/onions/anderson maybe sidebottom and freddie if they play take control because there bowlers in the last test made us play how they want to us play
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Team to win at Oval
Strauss
Watson
Ponting
Clarke
Hussey
North
Haddin
Johnson
Siddle
Hilfenhaus
Flintoff
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Strauss
Trescothick
Cook
Key
Trott
Prior
Flintoff
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Onions
Batting to 9, 4 quickies and a spinner. Maybe even Rashid for Swann?
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The attack depends on the conditions...if it looks like being a dustbowl then Adil Rashid or James Tredwell should come in to the side alongside Swann, NOT Monty Panesar, who has a bowling average of over 50 this first-class season.
If Anderson and Flintoff don't play then Sidebottom and Harmison should both play. Stuart Broad and Onions are also in contention
I'd bring Key in at 3 and leave Bell at 4...now is not the time for Trott to make his test debut as the batting is absolutely key (no pun intended) in this game as The Oval is a fantastic batting track. As a Surrey fan I hope Ramps doesnae get selected for obvious reasons.
So if everyone is fit and it's not a dustbowl then the team goes like this:
Strauss
Cook
Key
Bell
Collingwood
Prior
Flintoff
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Onions
If it is a dustbowl then Rashid comes in for Onions
If Flintoff isn't fit then Harmison comes in for him and if Anderson isn't fit Sidebottom comes in for him. If Flintoff is injured then Trott plays by default at 4, enabling Bell to play in his best position at 5.
Flintoff's fitness is very important...mainly because it gives balance to the side.
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that tiresome 27 average stat brought out is totally irrelevant. Ramprakash averages over 42 against a run of great australia attacks and this one is nowhere near their level. The Oval is his home ground, he knows how to play there and is in fine form. Its a complete and utter no-brainer, Ramprakash has to play.
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dumbpanic, are you boparas lover. He clearly is not good enough to bat at number 3 and has made a pathetic amount of runs and should be dropped. How anyone can defend him is beyond belief.
Am i the only one that thinks graeme swanns position needs to be looked at. 6 wickets at 69 each?
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Rank heresy, I know- but I’m not sure putting the Ashes on some kind of pedestal as the be-all and end-all of international cricket does England any favours. It reminds me for all the Scotland of my youth, when we still had the Home Nations football tournament and beating England in what amounted to an annual friendly (I use the word loosely, of course) mattered more than getting results in World Cup qualifiers. The Aussies seem to have a more balanced attitude; of course they want to win but beating South Africa away (to stay top of the test rankings) or India (because they’re the side with the biggest and most fanatical support) is just as important if not more so. If you look at Nick Bryant’s blog for Australia you’ll see what I mean.
If England seriously intend to be number one in the test rankings (and I assume most England supporters want them to be- I don’t see much point in playing the game unless that’s your aim) then they have to start beating more than just Australia regularly, home and away. In this context I’m not sure that talking about one test as a “Cup Final” and making a heap of short term selections of players in the twilight of their careers for a last hurrah in the hope of winning one match is entirely a good thing. Suppose England opt to bring Ramprakash and Key in for Bopara and Bell and the pair of them put on four hundred for the third wicket, followed by Fintoff and Harmison sharing 18 wickets. Ashes won, perhaps, but what happens next? I accept you can’t subordinate everything to planning for a future than never comes but equally you always need to have some regard to developing talent, bringing new blood into the side and looking beyond the next game, even if it is a series decider.
Mind you, I’d feel more comfortable in making that point if I saw any evidence that there were any plans for long term team development aimed at ensuring England win future series on a regular basis……. But to really do that you’d have to completely restructure the professional game in England and that would mean an awful lot of county committee turkeys voting for Christmas
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Much as I loved Harmie, I think he should be dropped, he just didn't have it at headingley. I'd be inclined to ditch either Bopara or Bell and replace with Ramps or Key.
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So the answer to all our problems is Mark Ramprakash is it?? Ok as I thought, we are going to lose big style.
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Onions has been our best and most consistent bowler.
He stays!
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Oh yeah, one other thing, I'm surprised at Hayden in a way, I've always had the impression that the Aussie selectors were very ruthless and dropped people when they were out of form. Look at Philip Hughes for example, he was dropped and replaced with Watson, what a revelation that's been.
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Forthview, its a reality that the Ashes are the only thing that truly cuts through and matters in cricket. Even world cups are chicken-feed in comparison, the urn is the only sporting trophy in cricket that has depth, history and weight. I dont care if we lose every 1 dayer for the next decade if we get a win at the Oval.
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No need for massive changes!!!
Key is very average. His stats are very poor. Averages 31 in test cricket. He has played 15 tests and had 26 innings. He has scored 1 hundred and 3 50's. These stats arent pretty reading. His first class stats arent all that either. So why would you bring him into the team. Surely if any changes are going to be made youe do a straight change with Bopara for Trott.
That said I think the current middle order all have a future in test cricket. We must remember that its 1-1 in a series. We are still in with a chance. We need to calm down asses the situation and back our players.
There arent any players who would be a dead cert at this point. We need to remove the pressure and back the team.
Bopara was never a number 3 and should of been brought in down the order. Bell is also very talented and has good stats to back it up.
My tema for the Oval would be:
Strauss
Cook
Trott
Bell
Collingwood
Prior
Flnitoff
Broad
Swaan
Onions
Anderson
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@LarryTeabag
Looking at those stats make one wonder how anyone can advocate playing Bopara in the next test. Only two England players have worst batting averages than Ravi, and when you consider that those two are Monty and Onions you can see how shambollic Ravi has been.
When two of your specialist bowlers - Broad & Swann - are averaging DOUBLE what your number 3 is then you have big problems.
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BBC is to be commended for keeping a more balanced reaction towards the hysteria of putting all the blame on young Bopara's shoulder than the Sky sports Panel. Congratulate Phil Tufnell, Matt Hayden for calling on all to keep their heads. Before Headingly, young Broad was being targetd while Englnad was 1 ahead. Luckily, cries of him being replaced was not heeded, and Stuart was able to show us his abilities with bat/bowl. Please rally behind Ravi and keep the batting line up unchanged
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Big games need big men and England need theirs. If Fred can play we can win. But it's not just about Flintoff.
There's a saying in sport - if you're good enough, you're old enough - well if you're good enough, you're young enough and this England batting line-up needs a big time batsman at 3 or 4. In the absence of KP a more mature and measured Ramps really is not a bad call. The truth is, he should have been at number three for the past three or four years - but Vaughan's over-egged ego could not cope with the competition. Now that becomes a more realistic scenario. Bopara has to go (temporarily). To drop him down the order would leave him hanging for the chirpers to pick the flesh off of his bones (how far down're ya going Ravi?)
Harmison was clearly the wrong choice for Headingley - Sidebottom should have played. His greater control, swing, variation and aggression is absolutely what England needed. SJH is shot at Test level and the sooner he is off the Central contract books the better. Even if the Oval has its traditional pace Ryan's the man. Ask any kiwi.
Don't know about two spinners - or Onions. If he doesn't bowl L&L, W2W then I don't see what he offers. Broad is a competitor and can bat so he stays for my money.
So, big men in key positions: Strauss, Ramps, Freddie and Sidebottom - suddenly that team looks a whole lot more menacing.
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edit: worst batting averages this series
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Why talk of panic for replacing players who do not perform -
Philip Hughes replaced by Shane watson who is not even an opener -
What happened next ? Panic or decisive selection!
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How about this for a team?
Boycott
Gooch
Gower
Thorpe
Grieg
Botham
Flintoff
Knott
Trueman
Willis
Underwood
6 bowlers, 8 batsmen no pasengers!
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I really wonder if some of these old timers could do some damage ?!
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Madliam (at 2:26pm) your name belies your sanity. With there being little or no guarantee of whoever comes in (be it Ramprakash with his runs at the Oval against 2nd division county attacks when the pressure's off - much as I admire him as a batsmen - or Key who has played well but was possibly more a of failure than either Bopara, Bell or most certainly Collingwood have yet shown themselves to be, I believe more than one change, beyond that of Flintoff for Harmison, would upset the team and admit defeat before a ball is bowled. The wholesale changes suggested by some posters are more than a little crazy. The flatter Oval and the necessity of winning, plus some healthy team talks, relaxation and reappraisal of approach will give as much chance with a lower long-term risk of making such sweeping changes, losing (badly) and then English cricket being in absolute disarray with the consistent selection policy which has reaped more success than failure so far being in tatters. Some calm and perspective is called for.
Personally, I think Bopara is not a 3 and Bell may not be up to it at 4 or even at all. I also think that the bowlers are getting off a little lightly. Harmison - although Siders should been picked for Headingly and the big Geordie for Oval if at all - showed his usual lack of thought and also set the wrong tone for the attack. Anderson carrying an injurey was well below parand Onions bowled some good spells but was also infected with the over-use of the long-hop gimme outside off. Broad was ok and Swann did ok. One of the most worrying aspects of the game were the tactics too. Picking Harmison and not Siders with a view to doing the opposite at the Oval; picking Harmison and not bowling first if winning the toss; not bowling first; bowling too short for an inexplicably long amount of time; the late team selection (Flintoff); not having adequate top order batting cover; lack of clarity in general batting cover - I realise we lost KP and now we have at least a couple who are struggling but have we picked the right people in the past; not setting the Aussie hotel's fire alarm off after one had gone off in England's.
Just a last point Key - his double ton against the Aussie's was not great. He was dropped 3 times (I think both before 50) and was not convincing. In Tests he played 15 games, averaged 31 and scored 775 runs (including the 221). A reasonable stint but admittedly a few years ago now so possibly he should have been given another go because he is different than Bell, Bopara, Shah and can provide top 3 cover. This should have been identified a while ago and the selectors have obviously decided not to go with him.
Yes, I doubt anyone has reached the end to hear me say sorry for the length of this post. I'd rather 'post long' every now and again than just chip in with what I think without at least some support for why.
I also think that more in depth discussions can be had this way.
Regards
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I saw we call up the following:
Butcher
Tresco
Vaughn
Ramps
Crawley
Hick
Cork
Nixon
Croft
Gough
Cadick
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I find even considering Ramprakash simply disturbing, talk about a step backwards, why not bring back Hick or maybe Thorpe and let’s not rule out John Crawley. Ramprakash has shown time, after time, after time, that he is psychologically not up to it. He has shown in the past that he doesn’t deal with pressure well and doesn’t play well against Australia, so a must win ashes test doesn’t sound like the place for him, I feel it would be a big mistake!!
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"I would leave Bopara in. I'd say to him,.... ". Tufnell.
It will be much more relevant what the Aussies have to say to Bopara, and I am not at all implying any sledging. The man is like a reed, his confidence evaporated. In this state I do not think he is worth a gamble. But Tufnell has some pertinent ideas concerning the pitch and bowling line-up.
I do think England selectors have to think really hard, and deep, without getting pushed into any need to clutch at straws.
Hayden does make two very apt observations, need for the talismanic Flintoff to be fit and rejoin, and the state of the Oval pitch. One can smell a candid Aussie here. He doesn't miss much, even if the first one is quite obvious.
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Its rubbish. I guess all these guys never played cricket and talk about selection.
I completely agree with Hayden and Tufnel, because England lost only 1 test and they were really close in beating Aussies the previous two tests.
Everybody is talking about batting, but England needs to look at their bowling attack. Without Flintoff, English bowling is rubbish. Anderson is inconsistent, Broad is not a bowler (remember 6 sixes), Swann has sparks of a decent bowler some days and I guess only Onions is a sure selection for bowling. Broad and Swann are bowlers, so if they score runs, its only a bonus, they need to start taking wickets at good average.
Stick with the same team
Strauss
Cook
Bell
Bopara
Collingwood
Flintoff(If unfit, add a batsman)
Prior
Swann
Anderson
Onions
Sidebottom or Harmison
12th Man-Broad
Just get out there and win the game
My bet is on England to win, if they dont make any massive changes
Goodluck England/Australia
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I just took note of something interesting derived from the averages from division one county cricket. If we are in agreement that England’s bowling attack have been doing quite well, (baring the last game obviously), then we see that the top six English bowlers in div one, (who have bowled more than 40 over’s) are in order:-
Anderson
Onions
Broad
Harmison
Flintoff
Swann
This certainly goes a good way to justifying their selection. However if we then look at the top six English batsmen, (who have played 7 games or more), a different picture emerges, they are in order:-
Trott
Trescothick
Hildreth
Carberry
Read
Bell
Does this say something about England top order being a closed shop? If the bowlers can go back to county cricket and prove their superiority, why cant the batsmen, not good enough?
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I am of course aware Ian Bell may be the factor that disproves this theory, but few have the blend of his talent, and his mental weakness.
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Why stop at bringing back Mark Ramprakash? Tom Graveney is not doing anything much at the moment, he's only 78, no age at all for a batsman, and he's fifty times the batsman that Ramprakash is at any level. And Geoff Boycott is around and should be there, he would add some much needed solidity to the top order if he replaced Bopara at three.
I have to say I think everyone who wants wholesale changes is barking mad. We lost that test because we batted badly on the first morning and Mr. Steve Harmison Mk II (aka Peter Siddle) had a day when he remembered how to bowl. These things happen, especially when one key player, nearly two were ruled out in five minutes before the toss and some twit let off the fire alarm at 4am. Disappointing, but not a matter of life and death and not an occasion to panic.
What should happen rather than the recall of elderly has-beens who are filling their boots against weak attacks in the Second Division is that every last batsman with the exception of Cook, Strauss and Prior, who at least showed some fight, should have it made clear to them that anyone who does not score at least a half-century is not on the winter tours. That might concentrate their minds on the job in hand.
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tomling; at least try and write without total ignorance. Ramprakash averages OVER 40 against the best Aussie sides ever assembled and scored 133 last time out against them at the Oval.
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Well said No.81Freedomview.Can anyone guarantee that replacing Bopara/Bell with Key/Ramps/Trott will win us back the Ashes. We must try to keep the same team . Afterall they have come through the triumphs/disaster together so far,and have developed a comraderie(Broad defending Bopara for having 2 unfortunate bad decisions against him during the series so far (both LBW's). Any newcomer will feel awkward which can add to the pressures/tensions. Moreover the younger players will benefit immeasurably from these precious character-building experience. These learning process in the College of Hardknocks will be good investment for the future of England Test Cricket. Pls avoid short-termism.This is not FA Cup, this is all for the future. Let us not have the bad habit of building and destroying because of our lack of patience.Please Rally behind the young players and they will surprise us at the Oval.
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dumbpanic, youre a bit dumb arent you, Sir? Phillip Hughes was out of form, a young player making his way- what did the aussies do? Answer the question. The aussie attack wasnt looking like taking 20 wickets-did they persist with it as it was or bring in a new bowler? Answer the question. The aussies were 1-0 down, heading for defeat and a handing over of the urn and now theyre 1-1 and odds-on to keep it. Did changing their side work for them or not? Answer the question.
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Good God, thank goodness I am not a selector! Given the variety of teams and new players that people are suggesting on this BB, it's not surprising the ECB selectors make mistakes. I can imagine them sitting around a table, discussing an England selection for 'The Oval', like a 1970s management team v 'Red Robbo' pay dispute.
Strauss has stated there will be "No Wholesale changes". Flower said "there might be" a middle order batsman change. The obvious one to go is Bopara. In defence of the selectors, the Essex batsman has played very well for England in the past BUT, perhaps they should have had the insight to drop him down the order and give the vital No.3 position to someone with more experience. But it's too late and I would suggest Bopara will be the scapegoat come Thursday week.
So, who to take his place? Leaving aside Ramprakash, which is romantic folly, this player will come from the Lions team V Australia at Kent. Whoever performs the best, may well get the place. My money is on Trott. I have seen him play various times and been impressed. There is also South African blood, which does wonders, it seems, to self-belief and confidence come the big occasion.
As to bowlers: Everyone was shouting for Broad's head until Headingly. His performance with bat an ball shows he can rise to the challenge and prove the country wrong. Therefore, Harmison must step down for Flintoff. Given how high the Oval stakes are, you cannot rely on an inconsistent bowler beset with nerves when under pressure.
And my last rider; if Flintoff doesn't play, then England might as well not turn up. The idea that England can win the Ashes without Pietersen AND Flintoff is utter tosh. I dare Strauss and Flower to drop him. There would be a National outcry.
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Strauss
Cook
Key
Bopara
Collingwood
Prior
Flintoff
Broad
Swann
Sidebottom
Keep faith with Bopara - He may not be a good number three but he has potential and without harping on too much about the rubbish batting why isnt anyone talking about the pants bowling!! We need to drop Harmison - He has blown his chance and bring in someone who can produce runs as well as bowl well. Enter Sidebottom - bye bye Onions!
Nuff Said!
Anderson
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forgot Anderson D'oh!
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He may not be a good number three but he has potential
-----------------
just what we need in a all-or-nothing one off match, "potential". God give us strength.
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Hmm, Hayden wants to see England not make too many changes? I wonder why? Could it be because he is as Aussie as Dame Edna and would love his team to play against a one containing Bopara and Bell. Collingwood just scrapes in due to his Cardiff innings, but he can't have many games left beyond this series. The Aussie mental strengh is pretty strong and they would have Bell and Bopara beaten before a ball is bowled. Key and Trott likely replacements.
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Fiddling with the team isn't gong to do anything. Yes Flintoff for Harmison if he is fit but otherwise listen to the sainted Boycott.
Batsmen; either hit it hard, block or leave it alone. Don't waft about like fairies in a pantomime.
Bowlers; PITCH IT UP. It gives the ball more time to swing, the batsman less time to think. No fast bowler minds being driven off the front foot; he should hate being slapped all round the ground off the back foot.
Our bowlers are never going to bounce out the Australians - they aren't fast enough.
Basically, try to relax and not try too hard. Think of Flintoff off a short run.
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In reality the Ashes by now should be in the possession of the Australians - we were outplayed at Cardiff hung on in there for a draw with Johnson bowling tripe, Lords the Aussies were appalling and Flintoff bowls us to victory we then lose Pietersen and hang on in there again at Egbaston saved by the rain........come Headingly we lose Flintoff as well as Pietersen yet replace him with a bowler????
Why has Bell been recalled he's no better than he was than when he was dropped in March - Bopara is never a number 3 more a number 5 at this level at the moment even Pietersen has never wanted to bat at 3 so why Bopara who scored 3 tons against a poor West Indies side in May??
Once again selection is returning to that of past fiasco's - yes we want continuity and chances to shine but to be successful you have to pick players you may not take a liking to but if they do the job who cares - after all is not winning more important than knowing what knife and fork or wine glass to use with the fish course?????
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Having watched,listened to and played cricket for over 30 years I feel like this is Groundhog Day again.How many times have I seen the call for veterans to be bought back,Cowdrey,Close,Gatting to name just a few.The only one I can really remember having any success was David Steel and he was an ageing debutante rather than an old timer.The Aussie bowlers finally found length and line,we batted poorly!Bopara was built up by the media but has been crushed by Aussie intensity,as many of us thought he would.Remember Graeme Hick? The bowling has been very patchy at best,bringing back Harmison was always a bad idea,especially with the season of his true love-football,almost here.Those,like Atherton and others who preach about central contracts being wonderful and too much first class cricket,were looking vindicated a year or two ago but now we are seeing the old problem of players unable to step up to the highest level.They do play too much cricket,that is one day and silly cricket!The Aussies don't play much state cricket but play grade cricket which isn't far short.Bowlers need to bowl and batsman need to bat.Oh and come to think of it don't the public deserve to see top players in county cricket?
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Grief. Is this a column on Dad's Army? I haven't see so much panic since Michael Crawford visited the Natural History museum.
England lost because they didn't bat well, the Aussies bowled well when it mattered (just as Flintoff did at Lords), and a few marginal but key decisions went the Aussies' way. It was the reverse of Lords.
Unless there are enforced changes through injury leave well alone. This team has shown it can bounce back and the Aussie bowling has shown that it can be brittle under attack. England's confidence hinges on a good crowd atmosphere and the Oval will guarantee that. We know the Aussies are beatable and they will not be playing for a draw.
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Ramps may or may not be the answer to England's batting woes, but it's not a completely wacko idea to though of you sarcastically suggesting bringing back Boycott or Botham instead, as Ramps is still playing, and is still at the top of his game. Over the last 5 years he has been the best batsman in county cricket, and at a time when we have a one off game to win, and a hopelessly out of form middle order, then radical measures are called for.
The score may be 1-1, but Australia have been the better team overall, and the misfiring middle order has been papered over by the England tail scoring heavily (Swann, for example, has been far more of a batsman this series than a bowler!)so it would be very optimstic to think the will magically come good at the oval.
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Broad to come in at number 3. Not as daft as it sounds...
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i cant understand ppl implying tht ramps is to old, look glenn mcgrath 37 when e played at the 07 ashes and im no genuis but isnt bowling a lot more tiring than batting i would hope they bring ramps in but i dought they will.
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So, England have to WIN the last Test Match! There is, I reckon, more talk about batsmen than bowlers on this blog - but to win, which they have to do, England have to take 20 wickets! The Oval is regarded as an excellent batting track which is true and where you get more bounce than any other pitch in the UK. I have just read Flintoff is expected to be fit so that gives you 1 bowler. Given the bounce and the fact his mate is back to help him overcome the homesickness I do think Harmison has to play (2). Swann has to play for (3) spin and to bat a bit. For variety's sake lets hope Anderson is injured and recall Sidebottom (4) which leaves 1 more bowling place. Now remember we have to take 20 wickets! You have a wicket that bounces and, I think, need variety, so England should pick the leg break bowler Adil Rashid.
Re batting forget Ramprakash. If Trott was good enough to be in the squad at Headingley he must be good enough for the Oval and Bopara has to go. All of this means that the Ashes winning England team is
Strauss
Cook
Bell
Trott
Collingwood
Flintoff
Ambrose
Swann
Rashid
Harmison
Sidebottom
P.S. England expects etc etc
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Must keep largely the same team with Flintoff instead of Harmison, Broad or Onions
Batting, if any change then one of Bopara or Bell to drop out and Trott appears next in line.
2 spinners - if you had 2 wicket taking spinners, then yes but Monty and Swann have taken about 9 wickets between them this year at an average of around 70. If Bopara looked good against Windies bowling then Swann did similarly well against Windies left handers.
Even Australia's lowest scoring bastman (Hussey) has hit 2 half centuries - only Strauss, Cook, Colly, prior and the bowlers have done the same...
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i think we should stick with ravi. the priority is to take 20 wickets. freddie will be key for this. here'smy team that will win us the ashes
strauss
cook
key
bopara
colly
prior
flintoff
broad
swann
harmison
anderson
drop bell for key and play bopara down the order to take the pressure of him. the chances are he will have one decent score out of 10 innings which means he's due a knock at the oval. also stick with harmy on the oval pitch and ditch onions who offers the same sort of stuff as broad and anderson. may be harsh but its nessecary.
final word of advice for strauss to bat second!!!!!! put em in first and skittle em for a low total and put us in the driving seat!
C'MON LADS!!!!!!!
word of advice for strauss
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Why is no-one mentioning Michael Carberry do people know about him? Has averaged 65 this year in Division 1 with around 1200 runs and 4 Hundreds plus is a superb fielder and also a Left Hander which is good in the Middle Order- Why is no-one mentioning he is 1 of the best Batsman in county cricket at the moment he should play other changes Flintoff in for Harmison and Ramps for the other batter out of Bell/ Bopara
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#142
The Oval 2005 Harmiston 1 for 87
Bell got a pair
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our batsmen have been poor with the bat, the bowlers poor with the ball, but good with the bat. why dont we pick an extra 2 bowlers and give strauss and cook the new ball?
well - its not as whacked out as most of the comments above, come on people, we didnt learn anything new at headingley, just that players such as bell and harmison are not winners, they are coasters who will be torn apart by hungrier but not more talented opponents.
for the record
strauss
cook
bell
ramprakash
collingwood
frederick
prior
broad
swann
anderson
onions
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The one advantage that Beefy/Gower/Warne have over anyone on this post is that they have played test cricket and if they think Bopara is shot then it's time to go.How many times have they seen a player in his predicament and know he needs out.The more worrying thing for me is that 4yrs after the '05 win English fans are still debating the same old problem's,we have just not changed or evolved.FORTHVIEW #105 makes some excellent point's regarding the England future.The ECB make the FA look like a bunch of revolutionaries!
Getting back to the game though,it's a fact that England implode at some point during most test series but usually bounce back so we can definitely win with a tweak or two.Wholesale changes will help no one as Tuffer's says.Freddie will be back for his finale,Broad is a great talent and at 23 is the future,Key would do a job in place of Bopara and Anderson will be fit.The team know what they have to do.
Win or lose though, changes have to be made for the future to stop us from going round in circle's.
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erk! i meant bopara at number #3
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#146 What does 2005 have to do with 2009?
Are you saying History will repeat itself?
I fairness my opinion on Harmison is much stronger than my support for Bell - but given that the English County batsmen are much of a muchness and bearing in mind the pair in 2005 you might as well pick Bell on the grounds he can't do any worse!
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What a lot of hogwash, most of these posts. Drop Harmison for Flintoff, if fit. Move Prior up the order. Then tough it out. Have the 11 players that wear the three Lions, show some courage instead of carrying on like a lot of pussies. Respect. Respect the cap. Respect your wicket. Respect your opposition. Play your best. And do it for five days.
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Ramps for Bopara may not be such a bad idea. Ravi's confidence is gone, and much as I'd like him to play, it would be too much of a risk. England brought back Martin Bicknell to play on his home ground (The Oval) against SA in 2003 after a longer absence from the England team than Ramps (I think!) and he helped England to victory, so why not Ramprakash?
It sounds like Flintoff will play, so I guess you'd have to drop Harmison or Onions to accomodate him. Keeping Harmison in the side would probably the riskiest option, but then again, he might, just might win the match for us.
England can definitely still win. Anderson and Harmison always seem to bowl well at the Oval, and England have a habit of winning there - no defeat since 2001 (and that defeat aside, a very good record against Australia there). Headingley was an abberation - a bloody great big one, but England can bounce back. Australia won't play that well again, and England won't play that badly.
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# 151
I keep on posting
1) Harmison's figure for the 2005 Oval test because I am pig-sick of reading "The Oval will suit Harmison"
2) Bell's pair in the same match shows that the Aussies had worked him out in 2005, just as they have in 2009
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The bottom line in all this is that Australia are only now just beginning to get into their stride.
No amount of drafted-in, second-rate, past-their-best players - like Flintoff - is going to change that fact.
England should be asking what they can do to produce half-decent players ten years from now. Because in the meantime, the idea of them winning the Ashes is quite simply laughable.
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I think no matter who plays the key factor is those selected have to fight and play with passion and pride in each and every session. This Australian team are not great and we still are in with a shout.
Come on England
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I'd favour minimal changes; I'd drop Bell for Trott and bring back Freddie for Harmison, but I'd move Matt Prior to opener to help take the shine off the new ball then move Cook to three, Trott, Bopara, etc. Prior's done well against the second new ball - it'd be good to see him hang around for at least 20 overs then Cook and Bopara have no more excuses.
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If we are serious about winning back The Ashes, we should pick a team to do just that. The selectors should make it clear that, win or lose, this team is purely for The Oval. After that, England have got to start looking ahead.
Thank you Messrs Bell, Collingwood, Harmison and Flintoff. You have, in the main, served us well. There are young lions waiting in the wings, ready to join forces with KP, Bopara (yes!) Rashid, and the rest of the present team. Together, given inspired leadership from captain and coach, they can make for a resurgent England.
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Cant believe there are still people saying pick x because he will be good one day! Who cares! The Ashes are the priority and we need to win em. Weve lost em far too much!
If Bopara is dropped and discouraged so what! If he is made of anything he will force his way back into the side. Why do people think he should be protected and so sure come good at the Oval? Too late, too many chances. Ok maybe he is not a number 3 , well England should address that in the winter maybe. For now we must drop him and Bell, as they are not delivering. Keep the rest of the team as is. Its not tearing the team apart for the sake of it - its a couple of necessary changes to make the team competitive again, and will give the others more confidence to perform again. A fresh look and impetus for the Oval. Dont keep going in with the same players to make the same failings. The Aussies gave themselves the right pep up by picking Watson and Clark.
Bring in Key and Trott or Ramps and at least try something please!
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How England can win the Ashes
Sack all the team and replace them with palyers that want to and are willing to play for their country and not the money.
We have relayed on just one or two players to win matches for us for far too long it is about time we had somthing the Aussies have "TEAM SPIRIT" which we seem to be lacking
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I think each of the Tests have gone to whoever gets the upper-hand and really sets the tone for the team. In Cardiff Hussey took a stunning catch and that propelled Australia to a winning position (even if they didn't take it). Lords Strauss scored a big century and that gave England a big score and the confidence to then go on and win the match.
Who knows what would have happened if there would have been 5 days at Birmingham and then again at Leeds - North takes a stunning catch to oust Strauss and then the Aussies push forward!
The first team to set the tone at the Oval will win the match but unfortunately England are going on a downer as the Aussies are pushing forward. And why drop Bopara? Sure he's not in form at the moment but surely by showing faith in him at the moment will build his confidence more than dropping him will ever do!
Showing faith in a good player not showing good form at the moment - wasn't this the same with Johnson and then he comes up with a big performance takes a big haul and who's talking about his poor form now?
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Some truly worrying comments above, no doubt all with the best of intention but I dare say coming from people who have never played sport and therefore treat it like a championship manager computer game team to chop and change after one bad game.
Bopara has huge potential as a batsman and is just a little down on his luck. He got a very unlucky dismissal in the last and his body language isn't great for a confidence player. Arguably he is not a number 3 batsman. Cook would be my ideal choice but we have no natural opener to move him down the order and he prefers to open. You have to keep Bopara in for this test whatever though and build his confidence up. If you are going to drop any batsman then it has to be Bell who should never have been called up.
County cricket is simply not a good barometer for test cricket. All these people shouting for Key/Ramprakash were probably the same people shouting for Harmison last time. Bell had a good county knock or two and some players just cannot make that step up. They won't be the first, Smith and Hick would or could also be guilty of that but then Hick never had the consistency of selection that plagues England. I seem to remember Michael Clarke at some point in his career struggling, or Mitchell Johnson earlier in this series.
Flintoff coming back will be a big boost to both batting down the order and also bowling. Drop Harmison for Flintoff and possibly drop Bell for another batsman - but unless Trescothick can be tempted out of retirement permanently (which I doubt) then I suggest that we look at finding future players that may be able to step up to test level rather than rehashing Key/Ramprakash who have proved conclusively that they cannot.
People who talk of it being one 'cup match' to win the Ashes miss the point. The reason Australia dominated for so long is that they took short term losses on good long term players and it proved to work well. Until we do the same we will always be competing in these 'cup matches' rather than working towards a team that can win a series without relying on them.
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At 2:36pm on 10 Aug 2009, Ira_abu wrote:
The above analysis ignores the fact that England are extremely lucky to be still in with a chance of winning and could easily be 4-0 down at this stage. Australia should have won in Cardiff, could have chased down 500+ to win at Lords if 3 of their top order had not been given out in controversial circumstances, would likely have won at Edgbaston except for the rain (lead of almost 300 with 5 wickets in hand) and comprehensively won at Headingley.
...........
If, if, if ...
What you mean is IF Australia were a lot better than they are now they'd be 4-0 up.
Facts
1 Australia were unable to bowl England out at Cardiff. Nothing lucky about it, gritty tail-end batting and poor captaincy.
2 England beat Australia by more than 100 runs at Lord's. They were never chasing over 500 successfully.
3 Australia would not necessarily have won at Edgbaston but for the rain. England would in all probability scored a lot more runs in their first innings if they didn't have to chase quick runs. We were the only team in with a chance of winning that game.
Headingley was an abomination but that was a one-off in the series so far. It's 1-1 and we deserve to be 1-1,
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if only we knew how big an effect not having pietersen would have on the team - disaster. Don't think Bopara is up to batting at 3. However, the thought of making wholesale changes going into the decider is crazy. Are Key/Trott/Ramps going to score runs?? - i think Bopara/Bell/Colly have a better chance.
However, the question ive been asking myself all season whilst i watch Ravi "the walking wicket" bopara play and miss, is; would Michael Vaughan have scored runs in this series? - who knows.
Ive always thought that Cook would slot in at 3 once a decent opener emerges but we are still waiting - and before the Denly crowd get active, he is a long way off at the moment.
But whoever plays - please show some fight, some backbone, some application and please, please, please stop bowling short and wide.
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How has everyone forgotten that this is almost exactly the same team that demolished one test and dug in for a draw in another?
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Surely players like Collingwood have violated some term in their central contract by not performing well enough - something similar to Nelson Piquet Jr's contract for Renault stating a minimum performance level.
If these batsmen do avoid the chop (which I think they shouldn't), can there be a clause that if they fail in the final Test, then they face a lengthy ban from the England team? It's not acceptable that batsmen don't perform and it's the bowlers who cop all the flack for it,
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Tom Tom Tom. "Australia, having struggled for much of the series?"
Is that why even before Headingly the Aussie batsman had scored 5 centuries to England's one. Also before Headingly the top six batsmen and top six bowlers showed only 3 England players in that 12!
If Austalia struggled at Cardiff then does that mean England were dominant? England put together 3 good sessions at Lords on the trot while the ball swung and Australia were a little over confident with their shots after the slaughter at Cardiff and that was their downfall. At Edgbaston who did the weather really save?
Langer's dossier was true to the extent that England give up under the slightest pressure. There attitude at Cardiff on the Saturday was a disgrace. They played for the weather which came a lot later than they thought. Anderson could not be bothered to get behind the stumps and run out Hadding for 30. Absolute schoolboy, lazy, amateur stuff.
On the last day at Edgbaston Strauss did not open with a bowler who took 5 wickets in the first innings, is he really that dumb?! Then later in the day they were just waiting for the new ball without trying to bowl Aussies with the old ball. You would never see the Aussies not trying!!
I understand that Harmison is quick and thick but Strauss seems to have encouraged him to use the short ball as his stock ball instead of surprise ball at Headingly. I will always say that Harmison is the biggest underachiever in my lifetime. What a waste of talent!
However, it is the England old boys network that underpins this bad and sloppy attitude! All the ECB youth policies throughout club cricket and the academy are a complete waste of time and money unless the old boys administration and culture is blown away!
Seriously Tom if you say the Aussies have been struggling up until now you must have been watching some other series!
You are as one eyed as most England fans!
If you ever played cricket at any level you would know differently!
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My ONE-OFF OVAL WINNING TEAM:
STRAUSS
COOK
KEY
TROTT
BLACKWELL
PRIOR
FLINTOFF
BROAD
SWANN
SIDEBOTTOM
ONIONS
= 4 Pace Bowlers!!!! / 2 Slow Bowlers!! / Batting to 9!!!!!!!!!
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With England,they need to remember the fact that at oval they need to score big and also bowl out all 11 aussie batsmen.I feel they should stick with Bopara but move him down the batting order to lessen the burden thats placed on him plus he's not the kind of solid batsman that can stick at number three.They should bring Ramprakash in maybe for collingwood and also get rid of harmison for sidebottom or sidebottom for anderson(if unfit)
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im ashamed of the fans tht booed england at the end of the match to be honest i can take booing australia there the opposition but to boo our own team is just not right. we dident play well fair enough but we shud show it in anouther way
this is not football we shouldent act like the hooligans that follow the football team. although thinking about it it was probely football supporters that did the booing there only intrested when there is a ashes series going on i bet they dont follow cricket at all untill the ashes i dont think it was proper cricket fans that did the booing.
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Post 166,
You're forgetting that your golden boy Johnson (who was going to slaughter us) couldn't put the ball anywhere near the strip never mind the wicket. Your other golden boy Hughes (the next Bradman, yawn ) crumbled like a cake. "Mr Cricket" (what a laugh, likely to be dropped, might get a game in Div 2 county) couldn't buy a run.
Bringing in Watson and Clark (which everyone else could see save your one eyed selectors) saved your bacon, and indeed Clark after being slaughtered in the second dig will not play at the Oval.
Only after being on top of some appalling England batting does your captain get an idea of what to do (under pressure he continually loses grip on bowlers to use....doesn't know when to play Kattich etc.)
Struggling they certainly were. If you ever played any cricket you'd know about that.
Look in the mirror cyclops!
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In response to #18 being amazed at the lack of a conspiracy theory concerning the fire alarm.
I live in Tokyo and in the local English language paper, The Daily Yomiuri, yesterday under the heading "Aussie fans own up" (Monday 10th Aug, p.18, datelined Sydney AFP-Jiji Press) the leader of a travelling band of Australian supporters known as the "Fanatics", Warren Livingstone, is reported as telling The Sunday Telegraph (Australian, I presume) that "one of the hundred-strong group had set the alarm off with the aim of disrupting the English team's sleep, describing it as 'good old-fashioned Australian high-jinks'."
There's your conspiracy. It still does not excuse the abject performance of the England team. However, if any England fan's in London know where the Aussies get their curries...
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england lost the match heavily but it doesent change the fact that we r 1-1 in the series, the team i choose wont be 2 diferent. Simply, boparas form is variable, 3 ducks and 3 centuries testify to that, his class is undeniable so he should remain. bell is not good enough to play. raprakash averages 100 this season, he should be played rather than a ian bell who cant score consistently in the county game. onions just bowls straight. to get top class batsman like ponting or mr cricket out normally u need much more, he cant play. anderson has the power to do extraordianry things with cloud cover and - this is england. broad can respond when people cant and he is an extra batting option - so we bat to 9. colly did the business at cardiff and could be a perfect foil for the lower order batsman. 2 spinners if the pitch suggests it, or harmy can play although i do believe he bowls too short, but if not monty give trott a go atleast, only a few tweaks, not a bulldozing of the current lineup
strauss
cook
bopara
ramprakash
colly
prior
Freddy
swann
broad
monty/trott
anderson
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Bring back Ramprakash. Please Please Please.
(Btw, I am Australian).
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Pls enlighten me. I hear such heartrending cries for the inclusion of this and that hero. Why doesn't someone raise a shout for Matthew Hoggard.
And if we want age and experience,and a cricketer of Indian origin from the Caribbean,why not call Rohan Kanhai. He is only 75, I am sure still a better batsman than KP and an infinitely superior human being.
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You only need to make subtle changes to have a big impact on the side.
England called up Onions between Cardiff and Lords. Australia dropped Hughes for Watson between Lords and Egbaston and then replaced Hauritz with Clark for Headingley. Onions, Watson and Clark all contributed in a big way in the reversal of their teams fortunes from the previous test(s).
From an Australian point of view, if I were an English selector, I would bring Flintoff back in for Harmison and drop Bell for a proper number 3 and move Bopara to 5, he is fair dinkum out of his depth at 3. That is all that is required.
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I used to be called sackaggers but the BBC found that offensive? Now I'm just a number - like a prisoner on death row. What do you think? Was it offensive? Personally, I found Tom Fordyce's comments about how old Ramprakash is more offensive. Why should age matter? If a player is 19 or 39 it shouldn't make any difference.(There aren't that many of them anyway).
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England should not make wholesale changes. Anyone outside of the current crop will have more pressure to do well. But the problem is number 3 slot, England simply does not have a player who can fit in there. Bopara is not no 3, but I do feel that England should have tried him lower down the order. My suggestion is to make Bell, Colly, Bopara bat at 3,4,5. Since Flintoff is coming back with Prior and Broad, it will make a good middle order as long as number 3 and 4 makes some run.
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I am not from England; but I want England to win the Ashes. I beleive there is no real need to make a wholesale changes. If I have to choose the team, then it would be this:-
Strauss at 1
Cook at 2
John Trott at 3
Bopara at 4
Collingwood at 5
Flintoff at 6
Prior at 7
Broad at 8
Swann at 9
Anderson at 10
Onions/Panesar/Sidebottom at 11 (depending on the pitch & balance of the team.)
Bell should be dropped. He looks all at loss when playing the ball. It's not the mistake you make; but how you make it. He doesn't show any confidence when he is out there...and really lucky to have trudged to 50 with 2-3 lbw's decisions wrongly going in his favour.
Bopara is a better bat. He looks at ease, just needs confidence booster and perhaps a change in batting position. Besides, he can chip in with some overs in between.
Nobody has thought of dropping Cook; but if Threscothick was going to come back; I would play him instead of Cook. But that's not an option. Cook should bat more aggressively.
So, we have 5 genuine bowlers (Anderson, Onions/Panesar/Sidebottom, Swann, Flintoff and Broad) plus Bopara & Collingwood to chip in between.
We have 5 genuine batsmen (Strauss, Cook, Trott, Bopara and Collingwood) plus Flintoff, Prior, Broad, Swann could chip in too.
I would take either Panesar or Sidebottom just to add more variety to the bowling - we need 20 wickets.
England need left arm bowler - and it could be Panesar or Sidebottom. Sidebottom would be my choice because he can curve the ball into righthander - and Clarke, Ponting, Watson & Haddin are all right handers.
And the last thing; England if they win the toss - should bat first. They should forget the last match. Australia batting last is a fun to watch for opposition and sure to crumble with the crumbling pitch.
Go England!
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Right. Right. I've 'ad enuff.
"We were awful in the last Test, make loads of changes" No, no, no. There isn't one commentator/pundit/player/ex-player who is suggesting more than two changes and most are saying the only change should be to bring back Flintoff. I tend not to give too much weight to individual's opinions but so much unanimity amongst so much experience and knowledge should be telling us something.
"Strauss is a rubbish captain, find someone else" There can be no better way of signalling panic than changing captains in the middle of a series. If we lose at The Oval as a direct result of his captaincy, consider his position before we go to SA. Otherwise, he stays and learns Test captaincy in the hot seat the same way Vaughan did.
"Bring back Trescothick" No. He has retired from Tests, he is not available, leave him alone.
"Bring back Ramprakash" No, he has repeatedly proved that he cannot step up to Test level, superb county player though he be.
"Drop Collingwood, what has he ever done?" In every succesful team in any team sport anywhere , there has to be someone who does the unglamorous, often-unnoticed, hard-grafting donkey work. For England, that's Collingwood. He is significantly better at the utilitarian, non-specialist role than any other man in England and, for my money, he plays in this Test and in every Test in South Africa, as well.
"Unless he's 100% fit, get rid of Flintoff. His match stats are no good anyway." Cricket lends itself wonderfully to statistics but Flintoff is as good an example as you will find of how, ultimately, number-crunching is irrelevant to winning matches. He doesn't often get earth-shattering, flashing-neon figures but usually when he steps onto the pitch he lifts England, he deflates the opposition and he turns the crowd into a "twelfth man". Even with a half-decent performance or with only one leg, that means he is worth two of any other man we've had since Botham.
"Drop Broad, he only scored at Headingley when the pressure was off" The game was lost before the end of the first day and all of the England players knew it. Nobody in our second innings was under pressure except, perhaps, Strauss and Cook who started to make a bit of a go of it but were too tentative for too long. Only Broad came in and showed a bit of backbone. Only when he'd done that and shown that it was a) possible and b) quite good fun did Swann come to the party. And even after that, Harmison blew it.
"Drop Anderson, he can only bowl when the ball is swinging" If I had to choose between two bets, namely:
[There might be cloud cover on one out of five days in August in England] or
[Harmison might come good this time around], I know where I'd put my money. And if there is any swing, we've got noone better at not only finding it but using it and using it intelligently
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Brilliant, kingsholmmad !!!!!!
Just about the most sensible thing I've seen on this blog (I admit skimming a bit...)
Good common sense , which we hope the selection chaps have too.
What to add? * No NO No to the 2 Spinners Option 'cos 1/Ours aren't good enough - Swann OK but 6 wickets in 4 matches? Monty way off form...and 2/ Despite some comment early in the season I see very sign that this Aussie team has any special weakness against spin.
And Nasser's notion that we don't want a pitch that will help the quicks at all because it would suit the Aussies is just crazy and ultimately defeatist anyway.
Anyone advocating leaving out Anderson is frankly nuts : Only twice this summer the Aussies have been bowled out cheaply. And who did the damage in each of those innings? Yes, it was Jimmy...we actually need to bowl them out here to win ...join the dots.
I do suspect one change to the batting may be made - Bell or Bopara but not both will probably be ommitted as it beggers belief we could line up exactly the same after the last debacle. But it surely won't be Ramps...if Trott was next man in line why not try him? Or if Moore gets runs again in the Lions game he may be called.
But that is all apart from Flintoff presumably as near to fully fit as he's been all summer.
And let us back 'em to win the game , cheer them if they do , and refrain from throwing abuse if they fail. I reckon it means more to the players than it does to even the most ardent fan.
Fair enough?
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Kingsholm,
Absolutely spot on. What i would be tempted to do is put Bell back in at 3 and ravi at 4 perhaps, as the more technically correct Bell will do better against a newer ball? You have to stick by Bell - bringing him in for one test then droping him send out all the wrong messages, not least to the guy who replaces him (i.e. one bad test and you're history). Ditto Bopara - give him the full series and then reassess before the winter. We're playing the best side in the world here FFS and if anybody had said we'd be going tinto the last test at 1-1, with one 'winning draw' each I'd have bitten their hand off at the start of the series.
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Well... everyone else has had a go - might as well stick my two penn'orth in.
1. Wholesale changes give out completely the wrong message. We have not played badly overall in this series.. just in one game.
2. No-one should be given a debut in this match: too much expectation for any player.
3. This is for the Ashes, for crying out loud!!! The only consideration should be to pick the best 11 players for the conditions.
Therefore, my team is:
Strauss (c), Cook, Ramprakash, Bell, Collingwqood, Prior (wk), Flintoff, Broad, Swann, Anderson, Harmison.
Two changes from Leeds - Flintoff has to play. Onions is unlucky, but I feel Anderson (18 wkts in 4 previous Oval tests) and Harmison (22 in 5) would offer more.
Bopara cannot carry on. His confidence is shot, and now it appears luck has deserted him too. Ramps is a one-off selection on his home ground and is the country's form batsman - irrespective of the bowling he is facing.
The most important change though should be the mindset. If the batsmen remember they have all day to bat, and the bowlers remember line and length is a virtue in Test cricket, there is no reason why England cannot win. Let's hope they do!!!
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All the team selections (bar 1) that have included Rob Key put him in the side at 3. Why is that? He's an opener, surely he should open if selected?
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#180: Spot on. The only reason that I can think of not to ask the groundsman to prepare a pitch to suit our spinners is that our spinners aren't good enough to make use of it. Rashid is good but it would be totally unfair to give a debut to any player in this match. Panesar has had a pretty ordinary season and I can think of no greater indictment than the fact that he has less variation in his bowling than Pieterson has in his batting. But we have to have one spinner so we have to stick with Swann. As for the batting, I really think we should take at least two and possibly three from Moore, Bopara, Denley and Trott to South Africa but for this Test drop Bopara to bat at 5 or replace him at 3 with Key.
#181: When we came back from the West Indies last winter, I was entirely convinced that we would lose this series 5-0 (which probably says more about the thin veneer of my cricketting knowledge than about the actual situation) so yeah, 1-1 with one to play is good enough for me.
#182: Can't agree with you about Ramps, he just ain't up to it and Onions has been one of our better bowlers this series; don't drop him now. But you're dead right about the mindset. 9 or 10 players with the right mindset will always beat 11 players who go on thinking they're beaten so bring Freddie on in a wheelchair if necessary, just make sure he's there.
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#183: I think it's because Strauss and Cook are settled as an opening partnership and, since there are likely to be changes further down the batting, it's best to avoid disrupting them as well. In addition, Key has proved himself at No3 and has experience of this sort of pressure so, if Bopara has to go, bringing him in at 3 is probably the least worst option.
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We hear all too often “We must plan for the future”
I’ve been an avid fan of cricket both from a County (Kent) and England aspect for over 60 years and in all that time, we have been planning for the future.
When is it coming? I don’t think that we have ever had a settled team, but why should we?
I think we should take a close look at other sports and learn from them.
In virtually all other cases, the team is picked from a squad of players who are currently in good form.
Very, very rarely is a player picked who is not on form but was several months or years ago.
Cricket Selectors seam to go completely the other way and still pick players currently “Out of touch” and hope by some miracle, that they will find form in an international match.
The chances of this happening are remote and yet we do this time and time again, not with just one player, but often with two or even three batsmen in the same match.
This is plainly one of the most damaging aspects to the National side for several reasons.
1) It destroys the confidence of the player out of touch because further failures which inevitably occur only make it harder to succeed in the future.
2) The fringe players on the County circuit who are on form know that their chances are slight in getting a chance, which can destroy their ambitions when they see these failures but know that, through misguided loyalty of the Selectors, the same failures will keep getting selected.
How would I change it?
I suggest that for each Test match a squad of twenty two or three players are selected.
This squad should be picked from those players who are currently “On form” and performing for the Test team or for their counties.
The Test team should be selected the day before the test and the reminder of the squad should play a shadow test with either a counties select team, or in the future perhaps a Touring B team like Bangladesh.
This match should be a five dayer also played on County grounds.
The Test team then would be a team picked on current form rather than by reputation from past glories.
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Johnson is just that good and he doesn't pad his stats by getting wickets against the Windies and NZ like the England bowlers. He's got his against SA, IND and SRI.
Johnson - 25 matches, 110 wickets at 28. 33 with bat. 1 100 & 5 50's.
Broad - 21 matches, 58 wickets at 38. 30 with bat. 5 50's.
Anderson - 41 matches, 140 wickets at 34.
It is pretty clear that Johnson is a far superior bowler to Anderson, Flintoff etc. He's also got a lot more wickets(16) than all of the England bowlers(most is 12) despite his bad form.
How stupid can the ENG selectors really be. Atleast when the Aussies seen Hughes wasn't in good nick they took him away from the spotlight, unlike ENG who let Bopara play and just look out of place against a good team.
In SRI he had 3 quackers and 2 were golden. His scores totalled 8, 34, 0, 0, 0. Scoring 42 at 8.4. Think that's bad then he plays in the Ashes and scoring 105 at 15 with a top score of 35. So don't go talking bad about Phil Hughes. Averaging 62 in first class and in 5 tests 472 runs at 53. He murdered us(SA) scoring 2 100's and 1 50. He will come good in test cricket.
Australia have totally outplayed England but for a few sessions and a few awful umpiring decisions. These teams are far from close and England have vastly underestimated this Aussie team(like SA did foolishly).
No offense but you cannot speak like that against one of the best batsmen ever. He may not be the best captain ever but he is probably the best around at the minute(except Graemme Smith). He doesn't use Katich because Katich hates bowling. Paul Collingwood is just a poor man's Hussey. England would kill to have players like Hussey in their middle order.
Just to say I think that it has been a really good series so far and the last test should be a quality match-up.
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Agree with Hayden and Tuffers to a certain extent. They shouldn't make too many changes, though I like idea of bringing in Flintoff for Bopara and possibly Trott for Bell. They have to go for the win so having six bowlers is impotant if its a flat wicket but then runs maybe a concern. Although it doesn't make a difference if they make loads of runs and don't bowl them out. Leaving there team like this:
Strauss
Cook
Bell/Trott/Trescothick/Carberry
Collingwood
Prior
Flintoff
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Harmison
Onions
Definitely impressed by Broads effort despite fighting a losing cause. Admittedly i called for him to be dropped after his last test but im glad hes proved me wrong.
Talk of Ramprakash coming back is just ridiculous. Why would you want a player who is gonna play one test and especially a player who isn't particularly special at test level although he is in first-class cricket.
One player im suprised i haven't heard too many people talking about Carberry despite averaging more than 90 in the 1st division. I don't think key would be a good selection. So i would go with either Carberry, Trott, Bell but obviously Trescothick if he is willing to play.
The team to win at the Oval will be:
AUSTRALIA!!!!!!!
They have a tough selection to make. They have to choose between Clark/Johnson/Lee/Siddle/Hauritz.
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Interesting to see MH say go with two spinners.
What I am concerned about is if we do, why go back to panesar?
He has performed in the past, granted, but not for a while.
He has performed for Northants either this season.
Interesting to see Gary keedy in the lions set up, alot of people (including myself) feel he should have been picked for england before now. So maybe if we do go with two sinners, for the sake of one match, pick keedy, but wait until after weekend and see how he performs against the aussies.
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sorry, he HASNT performed for northants this season
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moseadog: If we're as bad as you say, I don't quite understand how it can have been "a really good series" culminating in "a quality match-up". In addition, I don't understand how you can call Ramprakash's return "ridiculous" (though I agree with your reasons) when you have suggested bringing back a retired player who has effctively stated that herds of wild horses would not drag him back into the Test arena. Trescothick has gone, he's not coming back.
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Well said #161Samlynes,#172 ryeagles...Can anyone guarantee replacing Bopara/Bell for Trott/Key/Ramps will win us back the Ashes. Young Bopara is from an Asian immigrant family. He has known hardships and is a fighter. Right now, he is sad because he is going through a bad spell, compounded by 2 unlucky bad LBW decisions in the series. He is not the type to lose his confidence. Even Derek Pringle writing in the Independent said that we should stick with Ravi. He had a run of 3 consecutive rare test 100's recently and will be due a big 100 at the Oval and help win the Ashes. Form is temporary, class is permanent. Please rally behind our young players, the future of England test cricket. They will win us Ashes again and again, rather than the instant gratification of so called One-off Oval winning team. The School of Hardknocks will be an enriching experience and investment for the future.
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dumbpanic: I quite agree that form is temporary but class is permanent. However, when a player is out of form in any sport, his class becomes irrelevant and he becomes a passenger. Right now, Bopara is a passenger and if there is going to be one Test at which we cannot afford the luxury of a passenger, it will be The Oval next week. He has been released to his county so let him stay there for a few weeks and if he performs bring him back for the second or third ODI but not The Oval.
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Before I say anything else, I'll answer Mr Fordyce's question a few posts above: Sadly, I think its hard to see England winning the game. I think Australia will win with relative ease - if they win the toss, I actually don't expect them to bat more than once in doing so. They have demonstrated that they have the batsmen to build a significant total on a decent track (and the Oval will be decent, regardless of whether it turns or not). It saddens me, but there you go.
There's no point talking about the middle order too much, as everybody has had their say above and its hard to argue with the general consensus that they've been naff. All this talk has defelected attention from our openers though. Whilst Strauss has had a fairly good series, Cook has largely been a disappointment. After four tests, I would be expecting better than just hitting the 90s at Lords. His dismissals have been samey and I can't shake the feeling that against any bowling attack that has the discipline and skill to bowl to a set plan against him (at the moment, making him drive the swinging ball) will more than likely have a cheap wicket. I'm not suggesting he's dropped, as he is clearly a gifted opener and has huge potential still, rather that he should not be considered bombproof.
For what its worth, my team would be as follows:
Strauss
Cook
Key
Collingwood
Bell
Prior
Flintoff
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Harmison/Onions/Monty (depending on wicket and forecast)
Bell simply convinces me more than Bopara. To be honest, neither are particularly convincing, but I think this would be a better option than bringing someone completely new into the series.
In a way, I feel that Harmison, Onions and Monty are bowlers who will only produce when conditions are very much in their favour, wheras the rest of our attack might just produce regardless (Broad offers enough as a result of his batting and bowling in the previous test - again, not ideal but I feel it would be a mistake to drop him now).
I'm unconvinced and pessimistic, but that won't stop me supporting them all the way. They have the potential to win. Nothing we say on a blog will help them realise that potential. Hopefully they'll be mentally ready.
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On balance, i am in the pick the team around current form / Oval conditions camp. Football has adjusted to being a squad culture where key players of the squad are left out for individual matches and Cricket needs to do the same. Keys, Trott and even Ramps have good arguements that they are more likely to peform better than the current middle order.
Also there is no point giving flack to Steve Harmison. He is England bang it in bowler, which even at Headingly may have been useful balance if Jimmy A and Onions bowled full. Maybe though the selectors should cop the flack for picking the closes replacement to Flintoff rather than Sidebottom for Headingly.
In a one off game against the best side of the world we may need to gamble on their weakness and play two spinners
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We have to score big runs and take 20 wickets to win...obviously. So the selectors need to pick a side to do just that. I reckon on:
1. Strauss
2. Cook
3. Who knows? Certainly not the selectors - have a lucky dip!
4. Collingwood (fighter who may produce one of those innings)
5. Prior
6. Flintoff
7. L.Wright (why not, an all-rounder, seems fiesty enough to have a pop at the Aussies
8. Broad (Almost an all-rounder)
9. Swann (Almost an all-rounder)
10.Anderson
11.Depends on the pitch...Onions/Harmison/Panesar
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Agreeing 100% with jascog about picking players because they are on form.
It's massively damaging to carry on picking players because although they have stunk for 4 tests they are "due something". What does that even mean ? Due what ? A miracle ? Great plan !
And even if they do get a miracle - maybe they get a 50 aftering scoring zero in 4 tests running. So what. This is the England 1st XI and that's not good enough.
Currently county players that show form know they have scant chance to get in the old boys club of the England Team - where you can hang around even though your form is nil. Must be nice and cosy in there.
Everyone is talking about mindset ... let's not disturb this or that. Rubbish. Let's take a lesson from the Aussies, ruthless selection of form players. Players with the mindset to win. Players who aren't disturbed.
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Ok he got a recent harsh decision, but when making making 27 at Lords, Bopara was let off twice. So he has effectively been out 8 times in the series for 105.
Therefore No 3 is a problem position for him in this series. Pecking order for replacements should be : Key, Trott, Shah, Denly, Ramprakash.
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Drop Flintoff Bell Harmison Collingwood and build for the future. 2 years too late but better late than never. Otherwise half the team will be on zimmer frames for the next ashes. Get the young guys in and give them expeiance even if we lose.
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Please, for pity's sake, can someone put to bed this myth of the Aussies picking their team solely on very current form. It simply isn't true. Indeed one of the most impressive things about their structure in the past ten years and more is the way that they've persevered with players who are having a rough patch but who they have faith will come good. Looking back in time, Steve Waugh took ages to really break through with the bat and Shane Warne wasn't taking fivefors until he'd played quite a few tests, ditto for Brett Lee. More recently, they've gone on picking players like Clarke and Hayden through rough patches. Currently they're doing it with Hussey (if he was English he'd have been cast into the outer darkness a year and more ago when his form tailed off) and Mitchell Johnson (who'd have been dropped after Lords). Hughes is very much the exception here and (given the Twitter story) I wonder if there are non-cricketing aspects to that decision that we're not hearing about
If anything Australia have been a little too loyal in recent years to players who are getting past their best - Hayden being a good example, MacGill perhaps being another. It's that partial fumble of the always-tricky business of generational handover which has opened the door a chink for England.
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Oh to be a selector.......
Batters: The temptation is to drop 3,4,5 they were all poor and the Aussie bowlers seem to have the edge over them now. Bell cant play Johnsons lifters, Collingwood cant play Clark and Bopara cant play!!
Tresco would be a good addition strauss could drop to three and I think this is the one batting change (or maybe Key) I would make dropping Bopara but reassuring him he is still a good long-term prospect.
Bowlers: Flintoff in if fit of course.......is Anderson fit? Harmison too short at headingly did take a couple of wickets with the new ball maybe better suited to the oval. 2 spinners...not convinced dont think Panesar is potent enough even on a dry pitch (Cardiff hardly saw the best of our 2 spinners)
Ok my team
1. Strauss
2. Cook
3. Key
4. Bell
5. Collingwood
6. Prior
7. Flintoff
8. Broad
9. Swann
10. Anderson
11. Onions
Harmison gets a chance on what should be a better strip for him if flintoff or Anderson aren't fit
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Whatever they do they must do it quickly. Let the individuals know they are playing and then let the team prepare together. So - the Aussies will know our plans - so what. Not knowing them didn't do us any good last time!
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albocourt@201: I can think of no existence more heinous than being an England selector. Whatever decision you make about players you know you are going to be castigated mercilessly by bloggers and the media. Then, England being England, there is every chance that the players will go out there and prove the bloggers / media right. I think I'd sooner have my teeth nailed to the ceiling with a welding gun.
As for Tresco: He has retired, he is not going to be there. You cannot coerce / blackmail / bribe / embarrass / beat him into playing a match that he would regard as the living epitome of eternal damnation and even if you could, he would just crumble and you'd have wasted your chance and his ability.
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How easy it all must be for the Aussies ! They simply stick with their players. Why can't we ? Freddie for Harmie, hopefully. Have a ball.
Don't choose Monty. I saw him play India at the Oval in August 2007. That was Kumble's match. Panesar is not Kumble.
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#203 Re Tresco - sounds like he may not need that much coercing:
"If I was asked, I don't know," said Trescothick. "If they threw questions at me, I would listen. But until they do I can't answer. I am just carrying on what I am doing at Somerset, carrying on playing. Anything else is so hypothetical at the moment.
"It's always nice to be thought of - of course it is. But people are talking about it more than I am thinking about it."
To me that sounds like he definitely would play if asked.
I know it's for entirely the wrong reasons, but I would love him and Ramps to both play - Tresco so that he could finally get a century against the Aussies, and Ramps so that at least one player of that '90s generation could say they'd played in a winning Ashes side. Seems such a shame now that Bell played instead of Thorpe in 2005.
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Could someone please explain the obsession with Rob Key? The way everyone talks about him you'd think he was Don Bradman. His record in County cricket is average, as is his record in Test cricket.
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http://www.theroar.com.au/2009/08/12/trescothick-would-play-if-deal-is-right/
Jeez, I cannot believe it after all the fuss he made about never playing for England again. Mind, this is Langer talking on an Aussie website so I dunno whether I'd want to treat it as gospel.
I can't believe the selectors would go for it though. What sort of message would it send out if the Aussies found out that he (and possibly Ramprakash) had been asked to play and had refused? What sort of message would it send out if either of them accepted? What would it do to the England camp if they set the precedent of good players not needing to travel?
Hell's teeth, much as I like the bloke, much as we need his ability, I really hope this is just the press doing their usual irresponsible stirring without worrying too much about the truth.
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One of the funniest aspects of all of this is our taking advice from Australians. Hayden says don't change the team. Don't listen to him - he's on their side. We've already fallen for the 'Harmison is the only bowler the Aussies fear ... we can't believe he's not in the team' campaign. Let's not fall for it again.
As for Key, he is rapidly becoming the greatest captain we never had. I'm not entirely clear what great achievements he's managed at Kent and his batting, while competent, is unproven at the highest level. His best move will be to be omitted again and remain potentially great.
For what it's worth I would bring in Ramprakash, Vaughan and Boycott in place of Bell, Bopara and Collingwood.
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bigjohn, I reckon I'd play Boycott if only because it would get his miserable, cup half-empty, everybody's-wrong-but-me voice off TMS where he seems to do nothing but mouth off about how the opposition didn't win the match, England lost it or England only won that match 'cos the opposition were so rubbish.
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Let's compare Rob Key and Ravi Bopara:
Ravi Bopara averages in the low 30s in Test cricket and the low 40s in first-class cricket. He has scored big scores against a relatively weak West Indies bowling attack, but averages less than 20 against Australia.
Rob Key averages in the low 30s in Test cricket and the low 40s in first-class cricket. He has scored big scores against a relatively weak West Indies bowling attack, but averages less than 20 against Australia.
Ah, yes. A walkover for Rob Key. I see why everyone's calling for him to replace Bopara.
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re 173
you might be laughing at the thought at ramps coming in, but you should be hoping that bopara stays in the team simply putting it bopara will be out for less than 10 probaly and ramps will get into the 50s and then when ramps gets the winning runs to win us the ashes you,l be crying not laughing (heres to hoping)
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The right batsmen are there, just lacking confidence and maybe in the wrong order. No point dropping anyone now, the Aussies would just love it.
Sit Bopara, Bell down and tell them and give them what for! The 2 most talented batsmen in this side, all they need to do is concentrate and stare the Aussies in the face - nothing to lose so don't take any ****.
Sit Cook, Collingwood down and remind them that they have both scored centuries against the stronger Aussie sides than this before and will again.
My top 7 are
Cook
Bell
Strauss
Bopara
Collingwood
Prior
Flintoff
This gives a left right combo to open, and stops Ian Bell sitting around waiting to bat. No chance for nerves to set in waiting for that 1st wicket to go down. Get straight in there son and hit the bloody thing straight through the covers.
Strauss is our best batsman at present so he has to take the repsonsibility at 3.
Bopara needs the comfort of coming in at 4 when runs are already on the board (hopefully!)
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Tres has to come back into the team as he's as good as said he's available. Ramps also has to play , being as the tests to be played at The Oval . I can see a minimum of 200 runs from those two, hopefully lots more . I cant see Bell or Bopara doing any better than at Headingly . Neither good enough and both have confidence shot to bits. Its a one off match . Pick the best available, in-form and up for it team !
1)Trescothic 2)Strauss 3)Cook 4)Ramps 5)Prior 6)Flintoff 7)Broad 8)Swan 9)Anderson 10)Harmisson 11)Onions/Panesar
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Team v Aus
1. Boycott (clone 1)
2. Boycott (clone 2)
3. Tavare
4. Pieterson (Gary Pratt to field as injured)
5. Brearley (c) (fielding only... my mum to substitute bat)
6. Botham
7. Flintoff (Trevor Penny to substitute field)
8. Knott
9. Trueman
10. Larwood
11. Underwood
A blend of youth and experience depending on what year it is??
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Would it not be a good idea to use the England Lions v Australia match at the weekend to its full potential? Stick Bell, Bopara, Trescothick, Ramprakash and Key in the side, tell them they're fighting for two places at the Oval between them, and see who handles the pressure best. Similarly, pick Harmison and Onions and tell them they're fighting for the last bowling place. I can't think of a better way of getting some solid statistical evidence as to who will be up for the fight.
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#215:
"I can't think of a better way of getting some solid statistical evidence as to who will be up for the fight."
And therein lies the problem. Cricket is a number-cruncher's dream sport; everywhere you look there are opportunities for creating sequences, absolutes, records and relatives. Trouble is, if matches were won by the players with the best statistics (as seems to be the belief amongst most of the posters on here) then the trials would consist of nothing more than head-to-head sudoku. Statistics are the easiest (and often the only) way of comparing players but there is no statistical way of measuring who is the best fighter, who has the best cricketing brain or who wants it the most.
In addition, statistics can only measure what has gone before, the selectors have to make their decisions based on what is, probably, yet to come. Statistics are a useful tool but they're not going to win us the match.
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Why all this talk of buildign for the future!
The average life span of an england test bowler seems to be about 4-5 years at present.
They seem to have broken down or been discarded by the time they are 31/32
People harp on about youth but the bowlers generally are not picked until they are in their mid twenties, will we ever see players playing until late thirties again , i doubt it and we will jsut need constant players coming through - their will be no building for the future just tweaking / chnaging here and there.
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So called experts getting it wrong again, already talking about the oval selection of batsmen and the effects of the winter tour.......they cant get past the concept this is about WINNING THE ASHES its a one game one off PICK YOUR BEST TEAM forget about everything else at the moment how often is its we are in a position to beat them............exactly this should be the only focus of the selectors and these so called experts who influence them and the media.
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highside720:
The impression that I get is that most, if not all, of the experts (ie professionals, players, ex-players) are saying don't panic, make one change (Flintoff) or possibly two (Flintoff and Bopara/Bell). The "let's build for the future by bringing back Trescothick, Botham and Grace" brigade are almost exclusively panicky bloggers and muck-stirring journalists.
I reckon the selectors are probably going to look at Ramprakash, Key, Trott et al, maybe even Trescothick. They will probably then do little more than bring back Flintoff for which they will be castigated mercilessly. If the players fail, this castigation will escalate to bile-ridden death threats. If the players succeed, this castigation will be followed by a deafening silence of unapologetic amnesia.
The point is, nothing that I or anyone else on here says is going to make a blind bit of difference so we'll just have to go along with what they decide and hope that, somehow, the players can turn themselves from unpromising outside bets into match-winners. Or, at the very least, worthy contendors who can give us back a little of our pride.
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strauss
cook
key
bopara
collingwood
prior
flintoff
broad
swann
anderson
harmisson
not a massive fan of colly, ravvi or bell, in fact i think there all crap but they are the best we've got, except bell who is really terrible, don't get me wrong i know colly saved the game at cardiff, and colly and bell are great fielders, but you can't keep people in for that, if there is anyone better we need them. everyone seems ok about dropping broad, in my opinion, one of our best players and possible future all rounder
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Geoff Miller has ruled out a call-up for Marcus Trescothick. So if anyone wants to continue to waste their time saying he should play, go ahead.
Still no-one's explained what's so great about Rob Key. The only advantage he seems to have is that he wasn't playing at Headingley, so he hasn't been tarnished by that performance.
I'm surprised that the journalists aren't all calling for Michael Carberry to play. That way, if Australia bat for a long time, they could use the headline "Carberry Fields Forever".
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Good morning all. Some are saying that young Bopara lacks the mental toughness, using this as an excuse to replace him. Ravi is not the type to lose confidence. He is a fighter, who has a tougher background than most of us, having gone through life's hardships ans Aussie sledging is least of his worries. Remeber he followed 3 ducks with 3 rare consecutive 100's. Please do not interpret his sadness as a lack of mental toughness. He is sad looking because he is going through a bad spell, compounded by bad decisions against him. Young Ravi is tough as boot, with loads of determination, courage and skills. Please let us rally behind him and cheer him up. He thrives on support. He will get us a big 100 at the Oval and help us win back the Ashes. Please let us not use him as a scapegoat. Bell is equally not performing even after returning the county. Bopara/Bell will get as the needed centuries. Unless you can guarantee that replacing Bopara/Bell with Trott/Key/Ramps, keep the batting line up intact. At this final hurdle, having kept the batting squad unchanged to this point, we do not want to send the wrong signals to the Aussie.
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#221:
I think what's so great about Key is the fact that, if a batting change HAS to be made, he's the least worst option. He's got Test experience, he's failed less often than Ramprakash, he's proven himself at No3 and he's proven that he's got enough backbone to stand up to the Aussies. I grant you that it's probably a close-run thing between him and Ramps but that being the case surely strengthens the argument for leaving the batting line-up alone (with possibly some tweaking in the order).
If, however, it comes down to a battle of the headlines, I'm just hoping / praying for: "The Key to England's success"
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Trescothick to open, Strauss to number 3 and Ramprakash in at 4. The players to make way are Bell and Bopara but both should tour this winter. The other change would be a fit again Flintoff in for a disappointing Harmison! Harmison's days are over now.
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I think is is quite laughable that some people are criticising picking players who are showing good form in county games.
Yes the international arena is a different set up but surely we should give incentive to players to perform in the county matches and enablr them to earn international selection.
How will we gauge who is a decent player if they do not perform in county games - maybe we could just pick players alphabetically.
Stop knocking players who are performing well at county level
, even if they are in division two - it does not make them bad players any div 2 team could beat a div 1 team on their day.
Lets pick the form players now and get at the aussies.
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#225:
Yes, we should pick form players and yes we should pick players who performed well at county level. But surely, if county performance is relevant then so is Test performance and when a player has performed well at county level but not at Test level, that has to be considered.
I don't think anybody has suggested Ramprakash is anything other than an excellent player at county level; it's just that his Test history isn't good enough to justify messing about with the team for just one match.
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Kingsholmmad,
"...if a batting change HAS to be made..."
Mate, look at Bopara's recent form. His series average is better only than Monty's and Onions - both number 11s. And he's just got out for 1 for Essex, having had a lucky escape on 0.
So yes, you better believe that a batting change HAS to be made!
I like the guy's approach, and want to bolster his confidence too. I just don't see how sending him out, hopelessly out of nick, to score 0 and lose us the ashes is supposed to help. Much better let him sit it out and select someone in form. Then if we win, Ravi'll get a free pass to Ashes hero status, and very likely an MBE. How much more of a confidence boost could you want?
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County matches latest
Bopara out for 1
Cook out for 4
Bell out for 1
enough said
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Yeah, I don't think he's done himself many favours there. Much as I would like to keep the side pretty much the same, I agree it's going to be difficult to keep him in. Trouble is, Bell c Read b Sidebottom 1 (as of yesterday) doesn't make pretty reading either and I don't think making three changes (including Flintoff) is going to help us. Oooh, I'd hate to be a selector
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That is the worst possible scenario that England selectors could have envisaged. I think Cook should keep his place and bell/bopara are now in serious trouble. Trott out for 15 doesn't help either, looks no alternative but to bring in rob key for bopara, but what to do with Bell.
At 2:28pm on 12 Aug 2009, babyzblob wrote:
County matches latest
Bopara out for 1
Cook out for 4
Bell out for 1
enough said
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It's a bit late in the day to talk of putting Bopara down the order, even if that's his natural place- his confidence looks to be completely shot at the moment and I don't think he'll make runs wherever he bats. The logical time to put him down at 4 or 5 would have been when Pietersen dropped out in the context of a complete reshuffle of the team- but at that point the in form batsman in Div 1 of the CC was a certain Ian Bell. In the same way I can see the argument that the Oval might be a better pitch for Harmison than Headingley was (though it's a debateable one) and that Sidebottom should perhaps have played there with Harmison coming in now on a horses for courses basis but I think it's too much of a gamble to hope that he'll suddenly click now.
It's fair enough to say that you can't just ignore CC form- it's all the selectors have got to go on. The trouble is that it's far from reliable as a guide to how players will do at test level because the real depth of quality isn't there. I've been saying for years that 18 fully professional first class counties are at least ten too many for a genuinely competitive domestic scene. To take just one example of the issue, the burden of trying to make enough money to keep the show on the road leads to a proliferation of one day competitions of limited value (one of the less commented on bits in the notorious Langer "dossier" was his aside about just how much cricket English players get through in a season). Central contracting was supposed to help deal with this but it hasn't done- England players tend if anything to be a bit under-cooked in mid-season. But as I've said before, doing anything about this would require literally dozens of country administrators an committee members to vote themselves out of a job (and, in fairness, would probably alienate a high percentage of hard core cricket fans in the process) so I suspect England will just have to be prepared to live with an underperforming national side.
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Whaddya mean be preapared to live with it? Whaddya think we've been doing for most of the last century? Oooooh, I'm soooooo depressed. :(
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I think what we should do is ask everyone qualified to play for England to put themselves forward if they want to play for the next year. Each January, we start a reality TV series with alternating weeks of batsmen or bowlers completing pointless tasks, such as media interviews, kit sponsorship, sledging, etc. The public can then vote for who they want in and eventually we'll have eleven plus subs as a team. I've not really worked out what to do with wicket keepers yet, but it'll come to me.
It's got as much chance of working as the current slect a team blog and will fill the space left by the Stricly Come Dancing results show.
No more than one change, selectors, please!!!
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We need to win a one off game, what does anyone think of this team,
Trescothick
Strauss
Ramprakash
Key
Trott
Prior
Flintoff
Swann
Broad
Anderson
Onions/Harmison
Changes they say arent good but neither are Cook Bopara Bell and Collingwood, so if this team fails then so would the others anyway, they have lostt the plot to the fear of Australia. If Australia were on the rack and Warney hinted he was available they would be dragging him in. Tresco is proven against them seen it before and is class, get him back for one game. Key is solid Ramprakash has a good record against the Aussies okay different team but its still Australia and the mindset that creates. Trott give him a go, here we have batting to number 10 and five bowlers forget continuity, if we dont continuity is to be hammered again. The selectors need to have a spine, its all or nothing. Anyone agree.
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chairboyPaul:
Best selection process I've seen so far and if they run it the same way ITV run their phone-ins, there should be enough money made to set up a half-decent academy system that might actually provide some half-decent players.
stevebarwise:
Much as I would like to see it, I just don't believe that Tresco is going to play. Besides, Headingley aside, Strauss and Cook have more or less done the job for us this series, the selectors aren't going to change them. That said, if you're going to play Key, the best place for him would be 3 which would bring Ramps in at 4 where he would have a little more freedom to do what he's best at.
I would keep Colly at 5 for several reasons: If that top 4 perform the way they're paid to, he would have sufficient protection to be able to play his own game and probably make 50. In addition, what started the rot at Headingley was an excellent slip catch and if we have one player who would get into any fielding side in the world, it's Colly. Plus he makes a more than adequate change bowler and wicket-keeper, should the need arise. On top of all that, I really don't believe it's fair or worthwhile to bring in new caps for this game. Take Trott to SA but not here.
I pretty much agree with the rest of the team. If statistics mean anything, they mean that Onions has been one of our best (if less spectacular) bowlers this series and Harmison hasn't. I'd keep Onions.
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Ramprakash is not the right choice, he has shown on many occasions that nerves get to him on the big stage...and it doesn't get any bigger than an ashes decider, so please put the idea to bed.
What I believe will work in Englands favour are the comments from Langer which have come out. Whether he is right or wrong he will certainly wind up the players he singled out.I would love that P***y Anderson to take 5 wkts, now that would really make secret dossiers worthwhile.
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no. 234, here are three problems with your team:
1) Marcus Trescothick has said in his column in the Evening Post that he will not reconsider his international retirement.
2) Geoff Miller has said that Marcus Trescothick will not be called-up.
3) Marcus Trescothick isn't going to play.
OK, how about this as a one-off team to win to Ashes:
Langer
Hayden
Ponting
Martyn
Clarke
North
Gilchrist
Johnson
Warne
Hilfenhaus
McGrath
By the way, did I mention that Marcus Trescothick isn't going to play?
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The 2005 guys have to go now over the last 4 years their performance has been poor. Like in all sport a team wins somthing they then become heros and are given a meal ticket based on what they have done not what they are doing. Collinwood is the most over rated cricketer in the squad I do not understand how he keeps getting selected. Flintoff seems to have so little respect for anyone but himself and again is another very over rated player.
Why do you think the Aussie go on about Harmison Flintoff Bell and Collingwood. Its because they are so poor they want them in the England side.
England missed the boat here by playing the tired old boys of 2005 and pieterson who was so unfit. We will spend the next 2 years trying to build a new team while bringing back past rubbish so they can promote their 20Twenty futures.
By the next ashes test will will have another 5-0 thrashing down under.
sack the coach the captain and all the selectors now before this ro pulls the house down and the ashes are scattered and layed to rest.
I am tired of the Flintoffs and Pietersons who think they are celebs first and ignore their duties to England. Why did they go to the IPL when so unfit, because its all about them not England.
Pieterson made the choice of the IPL and the selectors and the captain by being so weak have let the supporters and England down by letting them play in this series heads should role.
I can never understand why Collingwood or Bell are ever picked for the team.
Someone needs to tell these guys the public pay to watch/listen to cricket its not free and its not cheap. Will we win the last test about as much chance as Scotland playing in the next world cup ie only if the other team lets us.
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My team would be:
Strauss
Trescothick
Cook
Ramprakash
Collingwood
Prior
Flintoff
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Harmison
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OldLoads (Post 58)
Quote: " The Aussies stick to Brisbane, Sydney, Adelaide, Melbourne and Perth every time."
Where else would we hold a test besides (maybe) Hobart? Those are the state capitals & the only places with sufficient population to pay for a Test.
England have every chance to win The Ashes however the option of the honorable draw which England try to rewly on far too often will not achieve the desired outcome. Just play positive cricket.Winning series requires consistency not saviour players.
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Whatever Strauss's thoughts are he must not select Harmison, he has proved time and time again that he can not handle Test cricket, it shows in his erratic bowling and in his attitude. In my opinion a far better selection would be Ryan Sidebottom, he knows where the stumps are and bowls at them, if there is any chance of swing he could be devastating and he is a lefty which would give the Aussies another problem that they haven't had to cope with during this Test series. One other point, Strauss must understand that he is the captain and take sensible decisions on the field of play, at times of crisis he doesn't seem to know what he is there for, get your finger out Strauss and lead your men.
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