Flintoff - England's gladiator supreme
It was not the moment when England actually won the second Test against Australia that will stick longest in the memory.
When Andrew Flintoff - surely bowling as well as any man has at Lord's - picked up the ninth wicket of the Australian innings, he dropped to one knee, and with his arms outstretched held the pose as he faced the spectators in the Mound and Tavern Stands.
Every day, every single little thing he did had been raucously cheered by spectators inebriated by his brilliance. So it was ironic that he was the one genuflecting to them, his besotted followers.
The fans had come knowing that in the years to come they would be able to tell their grandchildren that they watched Flintoff's last Test at Lord's. The cherry on the trifle, of course, was that their hero was providing the man-of-the-match performance in England's first win against Australia at headquarters since 1934, and only their second since 1896.
There had been criticism of the timing of Flintoff's announcement that he would play no further Test cricket after this current series, Australia's captain Ricky Ponting pointing out that this tour of last hurrahs might turn into a distracting "circus".
But if the Lord's experience is anything to go by, spectators can look forward to seeing performances that are less Coco the Clown and more Maximus Decimus Meridius. How appropriate, then, that Russell Crowe attended a day of this Test.
In his 77th Test, Flintoff had pulled out only the third five-wicket haul of his career. Having already sent down 29 overs previously in the match, he bowled another 60 deliveries early on Monday, plus the odd no-ball, at an average speed of 90mph. Did he bowl a single ball that did not ask serious questions of every batsman who faced him? I doubt it.
But it was not all about Flintoff. Andrew Strauss's big century, James Anderson's four wickets on Friday, the confident batting of Alastair Cook and Matt Prior, and Graeme Swann's 4-87 were all important pieces of an England jigsaw that is coming together nicely.
At lunch on day five in Cardiff, with Australia apparently on course to go 1-0 up in the series, that same puzzle had been upended, in hundreds of pieces, on to the carpet. In 10 days' time, assuming the injury niggles to three or four players can be sorted out, we will see the same 11 players taking on Australia at Edgbaston.
Now, the problem-solving will be in Ricky Ponting's camp. In post-match interviews, the Australian captain offered strong suggestions he would not be keen to either drop the misfiring Mitchell Johnson or shake up the team in any other way.
Strong performances from any one of Brett Lee, Stuart Clark or Shane Watson at Northampton - perhaps even Andrew McDonald - may change that thinking.
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~36~RS~)
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Well done England, despite a heroic innings from Clarke, you have been all over Australia in this match (the opposite of what happened in Cardiff in fact).
The Aussie attack is pretty toothless though and Johnson should be sent to practice line and length for the next 9 or so days, just to get the basics of bowling right instead of trying to bowl a killer ball every time.
On that subject, if Johnson is to be kept in the team, then I would take North out of the batting line up and replace him with Lee.
A fired up Brett Lee and some more disciplined batting in the first innings should take Australia a long way. Both teams could do with some decent umpiring as well - Doctrove in particular is not up to it.
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Excellent blog.
Freddie is the best bowler in the world in my opinion, he has also looked promising with the bat in this series. My moneys on a Freddie century at edgbaston.
Agree with you about the aussie attack aswell, Clark, Watson and Lee all will have a point to prove.
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I know some posters think that Freddie gets too much of the limelight and clearly there are others in the team who made extremely important contributions.
However, putting his own stats to one side, you cannot ignore the pschological effect that Freddie has on his own teammates, and perhaps more importantly on the opposition. The other England players are queing up to pay tribute to the fella and Freddie is the one bowler that truly frightens the Aussies.
The management must ensure that he is used properly over the next three tests. I appreciate he wanted to finish the job off today, but from what we read and hear, bowling him for 10 over spells may bring an early exit from this series for the big man from Preston.
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Every time Flintoff came on to bowl he made something happen. The likes of Anderson and Broad are good bowlers but they are yet to get to the stage where they can intimidate batters like Freddie. He really stands up for the big occasions for England, something that will be heavily missed when he retires after the 5th test.
http://jumpersforgoalposts1212.wordpress.com/2009/07/19/chants-and-derbies/
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Let's enjoy a truly great performance by England. Freddie was brilliant, but it would be an injustice if people forgot about the performances of several other key players; Strauss (equally deserving of the man-of-the-match, for without his effort, England would not have had nearly enough runs to play with, however well they bowled). Graham Swann, along with Freddie, is probably my favourite England cricketer of the moment: he gave a much more accurate impression of his skills here; he also looks like a player in the Flintoff mold: an indomitable character who rises to the big challenge (I suspect he got himself TOO pumped up at Cardiff).
Sweet though the victory is, though, England still have things to work on. Harmison MUST now come into the side: the pressure must be kept on this Australian batting line-up, and two bowlers of 90mph plus would be better than one. Also, if Freddie DOES happen to break down in the middle of a test match, our back-up bowling as it is does not seem able to present a consistent threat.
Don't quite agree that Freddie is the best bowler in the world, though: given that Mitchell Johnson has yet to prove his staying power, the figures and record of Dale Steyn can't be argued with.
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Anyone else think that England would look much better with:
- Harmison for Broad
- Bell for Bopara (We need a top short leg for Flintoff and Harmison, Cook stands up too quick)
With Flintoff, Prior and Swann you don't need Broad too deepen the batting, and right now he is the weak link who the Aussies are getting after to relieve the pressure
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"spectators can look forward to seeing performances that are less Coco the Clown and more Maximus Decimus Meridius. How appropriate, then, that Russell Crowe attended a day of this Test."
Good grief, Oliver. You shoehorned that one in, didn't you?
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What a great performance. A little nervy after that partnership between Haddin and Clark, admittedly, but but still a great team performance from England, every player playing an important role in the win. Would you believe it the first time England have beaten anyone but West Indies and New Zealand in a live test match since Pakistan in 2006- Almost 3 years. The perfect time to end that run.
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Please please please let's not make Flintoff's head any bigger than it is already. "England bowler gets wickets". That's what he's paid to do. I feel he's a great PART of the team. If you believed the media England have only one player. Please let's have some more balanced reporting. Strauss should've been man of the match. He controlled it all superbly: scoring a total of nearly 200 runs and declaring at exactly the right time in the face of (what we all thought) was a dodgy weather forecast. Anderson's bowling was more important in the first innings and Swann was just as vital in finishing the Aussies off. And lay off the appalling gladiator gags.
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In fairness to Broad, I think he'll go on and be a top class England player. He already looks pretty good and Freddie, by comparison, had a much poorer start to his Test career. I also suspect Broad's fitness will be better, for longer.
I am a fan of Freddie but, although his is great on occasion (and they are wonderful occasions!) he fails to record match-winning hauls too often to be considered a great bowler and his batting has been woefully under par. I think, despite the odd top-class performance, he has actually not fulfilled his massive potential. For Kallis to have more wickets AND a better bowling average, as well as a 20-something better batting average is too big a discrepancy to be ignored Freddie is capable of great performances but shouldn't go down as a great player.
Despite all that, he's still been the best England player for the past five years and some of his Ashes performances will live long in my memory. I have tickets for the Saturday at Edgbaston and am praying he and KP will be fit!
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One word: talisman. Nuff said. Can't wait for the rest of the series!
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Macatac
Broad figures for the match we better than Onions just. I would leave both well alone. Bell at 3 Bopara at 4 if Pieterson cannot play.
I would not drop Bopara.
Harmison for Flintoff or Onions if either is not fit.
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""spectators can look forward to seeing performances that are less Coco the Clown and more Maximus Decimus Meridius. How appropriate, then, that Russell Crowe attended a day of this Test."
Good grief, Oliver. You shoehorned that one in, didn't you?"
You mean crowe-barred lol. Sorry:(
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As fan for many years, and having followed the last few days (via the amazing technology!), I would like to say how terrific I believe all these young men to be as role models to other young people growing up right now. The values and behaviours of commitment, dedication, hard work, passion for the team, self development and focus on a positive outcome seem to me to be so important in today's complex and confusing world! If only we could 'bottle it' and distribute its potency I believe so many young men would benefit and the world, (not just of sport), would benefit hugely.
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Here's my theory on Freddie's stats. I think most people would agree he's a world-class bowler so why has he not taken more wickets and got more fivefers? Maybe it's because he's used as a strike bowler and his wicket haul therefore includes world top order batsmen, just like today's. And because he's injury prone he rarely gets a chance to mop up tailenders. I haven't researched this (i've got a life!) but it would be interesting if his ratio of top order to lower order victims is significantly higher than any of his contemporaries. Anybody like to seek out the truth!
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Phenomenal effort by Freddie and encouragingly fearless cricket from England right from the off - the way that Strauss and Cook got stuck in on the first morning put Punter's boys on the back foot from the word go.
Let's hope Freddie's heroics with the ball in his last few Tests will inspire a new generation of English youngsters to want to bowl genuinely fast - not just aspire to be a seam bowler and hope for a bit of wobble. As many have mentioned, too often Broad and Anderson et al do not look particularly threatening when conditions aren't helpful. A bit of extra pace will always make even the best batsmen realise they are in a contest - as witness Freddie's 95 mph ball to remove Hussey when he was well set and looking good - he misjudged his leave because he had that bit less time to react. And let's see English coaches and captains making sure that fast bowlers pitch the ball up and knock the wickets over too, rather than banging it in halfway down as a stock delivery.
Finally, let's not see the ECB, the BBC and the Government repeating the mistakes of the past with regard to supporting Test cricket, i.e. failing to capitalise on the euphoria of our 2005 Ashes win - we must have live Test cricket (including women's Test cricket, where England lead the world) back on free-to-air television if it is going to survive and inspire future generations to take up the game.
Having said that though, I have to congratulate the BBC on its radio and online coverage of cricket which is second to none, even pioneering in the live text department with inspired commentators like Ben Dirs and colleagues showing what can be done with the medium.
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Freddie hasn't been consistently good enough or fit enough to trouble the all time greats in terms of statistics. But cricket isn't all about stats and what he has been is a talisman for england. If he can be the deciding factor in 2 winning ashes series then who cares. Plenty of footballers scored more goals than Eric Cantona, but are they equally feted?
As the Smiths once sang, some runs/wickets are better than others.
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Want to echo the point made by 'magnetic_monopole' on the BBC coverage. I've been following the event on mobile 'phone, laptop connected to WiFi and iPod, just superb, thanks and well done! Also agree that we MUST get test cricket back on free to air channels.
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" Harmison MUST now come into the side: the pressure must be kept on this Australian batting line-up, and two bowlers of 90mph plus would be better than one."
actually, although i'm not a big fan of his, i'm pretty sure that i saw onions bowling speeds up at 90 mph. harmison has been bowling well recently and there is certainly a massive pressure from the media to get him back in the side. in the end i think injuries will dictate he gets a shot, onions looked to be carrying a knock, and i think flintoff might be strugling for the next one as well.
as for this blog, what a load of hero worshiping rubbish. the galdiator reference was perticularly cringe worthy.
finally, please lets not forget that at least one wicket (hussey) was a ghost wicket, and opinions were divided on another as well (hughes) and on another day it could have gone the other way, although i think this was a clear catch. there was a large slice of fortune in this win and they should never have come within 100 runs of us on a 4/5th day pitch chasing 500+.
we still need to improve a lot to win the series, bopara and pieterson need to find some form with the bat and we still need to be more consistant with our bowling. with onions and anderson we rely too much on the ball swinging and are in trouble if it doesn't.
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Sorry Oliver, it WAS the moment when England actually won the second Test against Australia that will stick longest in the memory. We haven't done that at Lords this side of World War II. And, glorious as Freddie's 5-for was, I'd have given man of the match to Anderson for his four top-end wickets in Oz' first innings, before which they were well in the game, after which they never recovered.
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I find such articles, as well as Flintoff's mannerisms on taking a wicket, with all the arm stretching, footballish celebrations, not only inappropriate but potentially divisive to the team. So are we to think that no one else in the England team contributed to this victory? What will the likes of Swann, Anderson, Strauss, Cook, etc and all those guys whose contribution made the heroics of Flintoff possible in the first place be thinking reading this article?
Please don't get carried away.
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Flintoff's second innings bowling spells were Test match pace bowling at it's finest. Quick, hostile, accurate .... testing every facet of opposing top batters technique. A real leader and inspiration of the bowling attack in the field - Steve Harmison please take note. Ian Chappell ... a stern but fair judge who has seen some decent pace bowling in his time agreed with me.
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Flintoff is an average player and Australia will win this series 3-1 despite the outrageous luck in the first Test and the despicable cheating in the Second. Poor England, can't even beat Australia when the Antipodeans have their weakest team in about 100 years.
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While, like everyone else, I admire Flintoff's bowling crusade, Graham Swann's performance has seemingly disappeared into the shadows without a trace. After his disappointing 1st Test and just one over in the first innings of the second, given the pressure, stress and magnitude of today's situation, cometh the hour, cometh the man.
England, perhaps, have their best spin bowler since the heady days of the 1970s. Not only is he a better and more intelligent bowler than Giles, but his batting prowess is better too. The way he bowled Clarke with just his second ball, even offers England a certain Shane Warne mystique. While Flintoff is getting all the plaudits, without Swann's 4 wickets, the 2nd Test result might have been different. And after the disappointments of Monty, England have finally found a spinner that ticks all the boxes in the modern game.
Meanwhile, bring in Harmison for Onions.
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Cochfac....I couldnt agree more.
My son was 10 yrs old in 1981..we know what happened then.!
He and his contempories all took up an enthusiastic interest in the great game thanks to SIR IAN,GOWER,LAMB,WILLIS and co.
Shalford Cricket Club benefitted from this, most of them were converted, many still playing. Kept them off the streets and Shalford CC is a thriving village CC.now.
There must be many potential England fast bowlers out there, particularly of WI descent, if only the government of this country would recognise the importance of THIS SPORT (and others) in getting these youngsters off the streets and a chance to do something worthwhile with their lives.....get sport back into the state schools big time.
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As thrilling and welcome as today's victory was, it could have been so much more. If Fred had looked after himself properly, then we could be rubbing our hands at the prospect of another 5 years of top class bowling from him. It irritates me to see the likes of Broad and Anderson, guys who duck the limelight and look after their bodies, not to mention shoulder the responsibility when Fred is crocked again, get ignored or criticised when they 'fail'. We will never build anything if we keep overdoing the 'hero' bit. As AntonfromLancs says, without the devastating spell by Anderson, plus telling contributions from others such as the captain (how can you get 161 and not MOM?) we would have had nothing to bowl at this morning.
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I agree with the gent who commented on the lack of praise given to Swann. He bowled dreadfully in Cardiff and the doubters were out in force with the comments about how he'd only been good against the West Indies and hadn't been tested. There was a lot of pressure on him in a similar way to the pressure that had been placed on Hauritz at Cardiff. Like his Australian counterpart, Swann answered the critics in the best way possible. Flintoff will grab the headlines but you look at the Australian scorecard and see numbers four to six all claimed by Swann.
Shane Warne made a very good point about pace. Swann's control of pace is beautiful to watch. His final over before dismissing Johnson saw him zipping around from 51 to 77 mph. To be able to do that and retain the amount of spin he gets is very impressive.
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2 Points on Freddie.
1st - Pontings describing of the timing of his retirement as creating a "circus" is as disgusting as it is hypocytical! Does no-one remember the last ashes? The whole thing was Warne and McGraths last hurrah! Even in 2005 they were playing on the "Warnes last series in England" theme, as in so many other area's Ponting hates to see in other teams what is fine in his own!
2nd - How on earth are we going to replace him! He is the ownly English bowler who actually frightens the opposition (despite his medicore career figures), witness the start this morning of an Aussie past 100 almost wetting himself every ball Fred bowls! The only other other English bower who does this is Harmison, but then only 1 match in 3 (if we're lucky) The rest of our bowlers are no where near his level, and as far as I'm aware there is no one that good coming through, I'm more worried now about visiting S Africa, than the rest of the ashes!
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Well done to the boys - a great result however you look at it. Those querying some of the wickets might want to think back to 2007 and Strauss' bad decisions in particular. in an ideal world such things wouldn't happen but in the real world you just have to accept the decisions that don't go your way.
People are right to highlight The roles played by Jimmy and Swanny in particular. As an aside, when did an England scorecard have 6 clean bowled?
The batting continues to be a worry. If KP isn't right then he should rest until he is. Meanwhile there is an obvious replacement for him or Bopara. Someone with a Test double century to his name and currently in the form of his life, single-handedly scoring more runs at Cardiff last week than the entire England team managed in their second innings there. The other thing abbout Rob Key is that he has rather more experience of captaincy than most of those on central contracts, which is another area that needs some work. Not Strauss' fault, just the way things work these days with Test players having little time to play with their counties and practice the art of captaincy there.
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Great performances not only by Flintoff (brilliant) and Strauss (dependable), but also Alistair Cook.
Cook missed out on his century (to be fair who could have ever predicted that Johnson would bowl one straight?!), but he set the tone for the entire match by scoring fast and with a sense of dominance. Strauss was 40+ runs behind him when he fell on 95, as Cook had made all the running.
So in among all the deserved tributes to the Andrews, I just want to say well done to Cook, possibly he could play the Trescothick role in this series (quietly effectively without ever getting the headlines).
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In the first innings, Anderson said he owed some of his wickets to Flintoff anyway, as he exerted pressure from one end and Anderson picked them up from the other. They've gelled into a fantastic new ball partnership - long may it continue!
Missed today's play due to work, but I yesterday I think Flintoff's bowling was outstanding - especially as he was carrying a knock. I also think that when Prior, Collingwood and Flintoff were at the crease (not all at once!!) in the second innings, it was a very fine batting display for England - the finest I've seen for a long time from us. Exactly what we needed at the exact right moment - gave us the option of declaring first thing on Day 4. Prior in particular was fantastic, and I think he's developed into a top keeper/batsman.
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Just watched the highlights and I'm struck by how FF milked the applause - but didn't go to his team-mates. He's not a team player and never has been. Couldn't capatin because he had to think about other players not just himself. He's a terrific player and a big personality but the adulation he's received for basically bowling out a few tailenders is boredering on the absurd. The Haddin wicket was important but who got out Clarke to break the scary partnership with Johnson? SWANN.
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Garygastropod - I see your point, Flintoff is a showman and does milk the crowd. But I think that's his value to the England team - not every personality wants to be scrutinised, to be the centre of attention. Some, esp English players, often like to remain relatively anonymous.
Maybe the huge egos of Broad or Pietersen could get riled by Flintoff's showmanship, but on the whole the team responds to his personality - he eradicates their nerves and shyness. You really think Collingwood, Cook, Onions, Strauss, Prior or Anderson felt anything other than delight at seeing Flintoff play to the crowd?!
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Thanks for all the interesting replies. Just a quick rejoinder to those of you who think I am overdoing the Flintoff praise - on another blog I wrote today I got a few people questioning why I had "only" given him nine out 10!
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Oh please really acknowledge the work of the whole team-Flintoft did really well in the 2nd innings but the groundwork was set by others-look at the first over this morning as Anderson came in. What will you do when Flintoft is no more-perhaps we might get a more balanced and realistic view.
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A great Talisman of the Game, not just for England, but for Cricket.
Way past his best, but shown that every dog has his day, and this was probably the last highlight in an exceptional career.
I would love to see Harmison in for Broad next test. I do not see the point in Bowling on over of 4 straight bouncers before a full lengther against Tail-enders. You're meant to test a tail-ender's technical prowess with hard to hit balls, you're not meant to give them easy balls to duck under. He's a decent prospect, but out of his depth at the moment.
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garygastropod,
"Just watched the highlights and I'm struck by how FF milked the applause - but didn't go to his team-mates. He's not a team player and never has been..."
Flintoff is one of those rare sportsmen who actually gets away with his OTT behaviour. Not since Botham have England had a cricketing folk hero and, in my view, it makes Ashes cricket all the more enjoyable.
Of course, he was milking his last appearance at Lords in a Test match, but there will still be the ODI and even perhaps the 20/20. So, in that respect, his farewells were all a bit hollow. But Freddie is "a nice bloke" and the crowd seem to love him all the more for this milking. And why he got 'Man of the Match' rather than Strauss or Clarke. For usually it is the batsmen who garner that offering.
As I stated in a previous post, I feel sorry for Graham Swann who deserves similar plaudits for his bowling performance. But this won't occur because he is 'not the one and only FF!'
As another poster commented, I'm sure most English players enjoy the media attention being turned on Flintoff as it allows them to live their lives normally away from the publicity glare.
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ThethirdRonaldo - Good point about Flintoff's taking all the attention being to the benefit of other players; one of the TMS commentators made the inverse point regarding Ponting: last time, there were lots of Australian "hate figures" for the England fans to focus abuse on (Hayden, Mad Dog McGrath, Warne, Gillespie's caravan) but now there's only really Ponting who gets people's backs up, hence the increased focus and pressure on him.
Not sure about Cook taking the Trescothick role - Tresco smashed the Australians all over the place in a way that Cook is just not capable of. Tresco was also more consistent (England's top scorer of the series). He's a big loss, and his absence may yet be the difference in this series.
Incidentally, Jimmy Anderson now bowls at 90mph as well as Flintoff and Onions. Anderson is a big success of the last couple of years: he was pretty poor on the last Ashes tour and is now improved in all three facets of the game. He'll be leading the line once Freddie is gone.
As for Harmison, I'm not a fan of his (such a waste of talent, with his crybaby bottling under pressure) but he's been playing brilliantly this summer, and I think in particular his great performance in the county game last week, after the disappointment of being told he wasn't in the team for Lords, has earned his way back. Now that the pressure and expectation is off him, with Freddie and Jimmy our main pace bowlers, Harmison may just be able to relax and enjoy it. If he does that, watch out Aussies!
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Retrogirl, I don't think Freddie's knee and ankle injuries can be blamed on his drinking. They are degenerative injuries that could have happened to anyone - he's just unlucky.
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Flintoff - 4 runs and 1 wicket in the first innings - 30 runs and 5 wickets (3 of whom occupy the bottom half of the Australian batting line up) in the second innings.
'Gladiator supreme' - no, more like 'Media darling'.
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England was the better team for the majority of the 2nd test but at the end of the day this is a contest between 2 fairly even sides, and luck played a decent part in the victory (winning the toss, benefitting in every change in conditions and then getting the benefit of the doubt on every tight umpiring decision). Strauss has proven to be a cynical captain (through his antics in the dying minutes of the Cardiff test and various indiscretions at Lords eg. falsely claiming a catch, appealing when the ball came off Clarke's helmet in the 2nd innings) and while Freddie is a great player he's not the messiah, whatever his adoring public may think or he may imply through his post wicket antics. The Australians need to lift their heads and sharpen their bowling in particular but rest assured they will be back with a vengeance. Lets just hope the better team wins and the umpires clean up their act - surely even the barmies would rather see England win fairly than have the umpires hand England another Ashes series!
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Whilst fred was superb and im pleased that he finally managed a long overdue five-for at Lords, equal praise must go to Andrew Strauss's superb 161 in the 1st innings and Anderson and Swann's 4 wicket hauls. collectivley these 4 contributions won england the match. for Edgbaston i would stick with the same unit, unless onions is injured, bring Harmy back i guess. We have a good record in Birmingham, and the atmos is always very intimidating for the visting team, England need to keep there foot on the gas and push for the second win with agressive batting and bowling from the off. I would love to see Punter and chums pummelled into the ground. Come on England.
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Well Done England!
A bit of luck with the decisions, and a lot of good play. The series is now on well and truly.
Flintoff did well to get a fiver and to intimidate the Aussies, but I feel the sooner he leaves the side for a well earned retirement, the sooner the England team can improve even further. It is a well known stat that England have won more test matches without him in the side than with him playing. As for the ridiculous poses, the sooner we see the end of that, the better.
All in all Freddie has been a good player (albeit at times, brilliant!), but far too infrequent to rank among the greats.
Well played to the whole side with Strauss, Swann, Onions, Anderson ( he swung the match!), Prior, Fred excelling.
A note of caution: beware a wounded Aussie side.
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If England win one more test in the series, Australia have to win both the others! Cripes!!
Anyhoo all the Freddie haters, just go away please, give the guy his day in the sun. He was awesome today, and I thought wonderfully modest after the game. As for being an ego- its his ego that makes him step up when the game is on the line! But just watch his body language, compared to say KPs, toward his teammates, and you will see that he is a team player. Did he play to the crowd? Absolutely, but again thats playing to his and his teams fans, it showing appreciation of the people who shell out there hard earned money to support the team.
*sigh* why do we English so enjoy knocking down our heroes!!
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Some of the criticisms of Flintoff on here are incredible.
The guy is an inspirational leader, who will be sorely missed when he finishes this series....His spell today was fantastic and those commenting that it was only 'tail-enders' he was getting out, should remember that it was these so-called tail-enders who were being hailed as England's potential thorn in the side just 24 hours ago....Flintoff's rip-roaring effort made sure that any record breaking upset was never going to happen....Without Flintoff, who knows what may have happened??
It may seem over the top to suggest this, but I truly believe that Flintoff is right up there with Sir Ian Botham, for ability, acheivement and popularity with the general public....Whilst Botham was indeed a great player, whose stats back this up, lets not forget that when confronted with the World's best team during his time, Botham was often found wanting....Flintoff, when facing the supposed World's best, as often had the sheer presence to intimidate and defeat them....Yes, this test owed much to other players too, as did the 2005 series, but ultimately Flintoff was the man that the Aussies will always pinpoint as the difference.
In the same way we feel the Aussies are more vulnerable without Warne, so the Aussies will feel about us once Freddie has departed.
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Darth_Blader: cricketers are top sportsmen and athletes. If you take care of your body then you give yourself the best chance possible of recovery.
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Congratulations to the England team on this important and historic victory. Sometimes, a long record of failure such as ours against the Australians at HQ becomes a bit of an albatross so its good to wave it goodbye. How you dispose of it is not important! Flintoff is the main strike bowler able to bowl faster than all the others so I really would expect him to be able to mop up any tail Australian or otherwise. However, it has been the efforts of the whole team before today which has even allowed him anything to bowl at. It has taken him a great many tests to turn in 5 for hauls so lets not get too carried away just yet. Before we get the inevitable comparisons with 1981 again, consider that Botham had a major impact on three consecutive tests with both bat and ball and thus determined the outcome of that series. Botham was a one off that year - let's just accept that and embrace the class of 2009 for the great team which they are threatening to become. Its great to see a good old fashioned off spinner thriving against erstwhile confident Australian left handers. Well done EVERYBODY.
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Well done England.
As much as I like Stuart Broad as a cricketer I think a spell back in county cricket may just help his bowling. Steve Harmison back for Edgbaston (I know he has his detractors) as he's the form bowler in county cricket at the moment.
Such a switch might make the County Championship more interesting as well.
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Totally agree, SaintlyMark, Kit Ramsey and CharlesBurgessFry. Instead of criticising Flintoff for enjoying his last few test matches, listen to what Aggers said about Freddie enjoying himself: 'the Aussies will be thinking " oh dear" '; who'd want to face him throwing pin-point accurate, 95 mph exocets down the wicket? Freddie has not always got the wicket hauls but doesn't he just dry up the runs and probe the batsmen, thus helping others reap the reward; this is teamwork par excellence. In his interview he paid tribute several times to the team effort and it wasn't just said for effect. The inescapable fact which I know some England supporters find difficult to swallow is the crowds (and a few others not always able to attend matches)love him and he has an ability to lift the team and the crowd in a way which no-one else seems able to match.
Like every other human being on the planet (and that includes us), he's not done everything right in his life, but he's done an awful lot right and is a truly great sportsman. Greatness isn't just about statistics - they only tell half a story without a context.
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Good to see you blokes have expanded the squad to 15, with additions of Koertzen, Doctrove and Llong... When was the last time you can remember 3 of your top 5 being gunned and going on to win.
Well done Freddie. A champions effort.
Mitchell Johnson has always struggled with the new ball - at home or away; he's always seemed a more potent first change bowler.
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Lets admit our team is known around the world as roudy bunch nowadays. The proof enough is the way both Umpires behaved in this test, they referred Hauritz's catch to third umpire and didn't see need to refere for Strauss' catch. They very much took Englands appealing as sort of confirmaton that Strauss took legit catch, where as they had no trust in Australian player's appeal and felt need to have it looked at by third umpire... This says a lot where we stand today.
The baviour of Ponting is utterly disappointing and shameful and I must say Ricky and Clarke do not represent all the Australians. I agree with you Jeff Thompson..
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It seems there are those that only wish the man of the match to only go to the top run scorer or top wicket taker.
It is an equivalence to say that a football MOTM can only go to a goal scorer. Not so, the best and most inspirational players can have a greater effect than pure statistics.
People such as Bryan Robson, Bobby Moore & Terry Butcher would regularly put on match-winning performances without being on the score sheet.
Listen to Shane Warne, he knows a thing or two about great bowling and he says he is the best in the world, the one bowler that any other team would be glad to see out of the side.
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Quote from Oliver Brett:
"In 10 days' time, assuming the injury niggles to three or four players can be sorted out, we will see the same 11 players taking on Australia at Edgbaston."
Unless you have the inside scoop, Brett, I expect to see the in-form, gladiatorial Steve Harmison replacing the lackluster, mediocre Onions to reinforce the England attack!
It makes a lot of sense to do so!
If you disagree, please give me one plausible reason why you think Onions should retain his spot in the team.
Rgds.
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If Freddie was a selfish prima donna then I could perhaps understand some of the posts on here, but he is not, as came accross from his post match comments and the fact that all his team mates can't speak highly enough of him.
The bloke was enjoying his last day at the home of cricket and produced the best spell of fast bowling there can have been at Lords for some time. Saintlymark et al, I'm with you.
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when was the last time the england selectors had the confidence to change a winning team, so that they press home the advantage in a series and makes sure we win the whole series, and not just enjoy our moment of success in one test match.
they had the temerity to drop Monty, despite his last wicket heroics in Cardiff, and i think they must now bring Harmison in for either Onions or Broad, and really put the wind up the aussies. if Ponting leaves a losing team unchanged, and we show that we are not satisfied with our winning side, it certainly reflects an enormous reversal in pschological dominance, and also shows some common sense. Harmison is certainly worth teh gamble, as the Aussies fear him, and at teh moment they are quite comfortable with Broad and Onions.
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What a pefermance by england..flintoff heroics were very similar to the oval test in 05.it was fitting though, that he was the man of the match. Freddie was good, i felt like crying with laughter with his trademark celebration and his constant expressions of respect towards the aussie batsmen.
It is also intriguing to note that there were many doubters questioning freddie's fitness for the test. On the eve of the test match an aussie channel 9 commentator(whom will regret his comments) publically claimed freddie was not fit enough to play and all the attention dreiven towards his retirement would disrupt England's performance.
But how wrong was he? Andrew Flintoff thrives on playing the big occassions. Maybe this aussie commentators and other uninformed aussie commentators should perhaps take a page out of freddie mantra. They should begin to focus in finding their own all-rounder.In that they do have Mitchell Johnson buhis bowling is very suspect and he is no-where near Flintoff's consistency wit the ball.
Despite, England's vistory one should be aware of what te future holds for England with freddie leaving soon. He has been such an intergal part of the team..whom can england replace him with.
Nonetheless, I believe England have a good spinner with Swann. He can bat,he talks the talk,and walk the walk s proved against the best he can do it. His delievery to Clarke was pure class!
I look forward to watching the rest of the series...does anyone or is anyone willing to sell their tickets for te final test match at the oval....
Shaun.
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Greatest XI over last 5 years: Tendulkar, Strauss, Pointing, Lara, Kallis, Gilcrist, Flintoff, Akram, Warne, Mulli, McGrath
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You Poms amuse me - best bowler in the world - LOL!!!! He hadn't taken a 5 wicket spell for 4 years and averages well over 30 with the ball. If that's the best bowler in the world, god help test cricket!
Unlike the Poms, the South Africans, Australians, etc think that series other than the Ashes are important and require their players to consistently perform. In fact, given Engalnd was thrashed 5-0 by Australia in the last Ashes series, and have generally been so poor over the last 20 years, many South Africans, Indians and Australians see the series between those 3 countries as the pinnacle of cricket. I know the Australians were absolutely rapt with their series win in SA and it may be one of the reasons why they've been so below par so far in this series.
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blueShauno - on statistics, you couldn't have Strauss or Flintoff in that side. I'd replace them with Hayden and Dale Steyn.
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No Chris Gayle in there, Blue...? Hmmnn!
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KitRamsey (post 46) - why do you only consider '05 and the current series when assessing Flintoff's supposed greatness? In Australia in '06-'07 he was woeful, hence why he still average around 30 with the ball against Australia. As with any other form of statistics, cricket stats over a long period, and therefore an appropriate sample size, don't lie. And the stats show Fatty, sorry Freddie, has had a couple of good series, the rest of the time he has been average at best. And please don't use injury as an excuse - he's supposedly injured at the moment but went alright yesterday (with special mention that 2 of his 5 wickets weren't actually legitimate).
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Good blog, if a little overboard on the subject of Flintoff. Don't get me wrong, I've always rated him and was desperately sorry when his injury problems started a few years ago. But this was a great team performance; from Prior's excellent keeping to Onions' mopping up of the Aussie tail in the first innings. I've been a more or less constant critic of Strauss in the past, and here's my apology. He recovered brilliantly from the debacle at Cardiff, and deserves full admiration for his bottle in deciding not to enforce the follow-on - not to mention a knock he'll remember for ever. Finally, a word about Mitchell Johnson. He is a very dangerous bowler, currently suffering a temporary problem with his action. It's a bit like when a darts player can't let go the dart properly, and almost certainly stress-related. A week fishing would do him more good than playing cricket. I hope he sorts it out because this series needs him.
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I do agree that flintoff played very well but the fact that this is only his third 5 wicket haul displays how much he has failed to live up to his potential. The true all rounder for england is graeme swann, not flashy and not as talented but he makes the most of what he has. his figures were as good as flintoff bowling wise for australias second innings(and he was really given a bowl in the first) and in the first test he hit a combined 78 off 103 balls to flintoffs 63 off 128 balls. And over when he does take wickets its not all the best batsmen on paper but its always the one that actually is doing damage at the time, just look who he bowled in this test compared to flintoff. Its about time the man was given some credit
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What the undeniably talented Freddie could have achieved if form and injuries had been different, we'll never know, but he has given the cricketing world some Botham-esque moments - not many, but enough that he will live on in the memory for years to come.
He was on top form on the 5th morning, and England only hope he can keep that level of aggressive accuracy up for the rest of the series: if so we will win the Ashes back, and that would be a fitting way to leave the Test stage.
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Sorry for the digression, gang, but a necessary one, I feel:
Why is it that this blog is up to snuff when in comes to numbering the posts to make referencing them easy and being open 24/7; whilst 606 remains mired in a more unenlightened, 'primitive' age?
Is someone asleep at the wheel?
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Statham, Higgs, Lever and, now, Flintoff, all great bowlers, all popular with their colleagues, and all Lancastrians, great people and a great cricket club.
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"Did he bowl a single ball that did not ask serious questions of every batsman who faced him? I doubt it."
Freddie was immense throughout the 2nd innings but this sort of hyperbole does little to dissuade those who consider us prone to getting carried away with our successes. If this is what we read from the BBC I dread to think what the tabloids have to say about it.
Flintoff is only human and it isn't hard to recall several loose deliveries that were clattered for four. By all means let's knight him, crown him and install him as the head of our new national religion; I'll sign up. It would be nice if we could keep the hero worship out of our professional journalism though.
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I like Flintoff, he is a top player and great for the game, but his recent wicket celebrations are bordering on ridiculous. His trademark arms spread in recognition of his awesomeness has now evolved into kneeling, arms spread with his eyes shut, like he is receiving plaudits from God himself. Is he retiring through injury or because he plans on developing a new career as the next messiah? If so he should be sectioned along with Gazza, although don't know if they would be a good influence on each other. Hopefully in the next test he bowls Ponting and then shuts his eyes, adopts crucific position and levitates above the wicket. The crowd would go off.
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Ha I love the way the aussies get so wound up when they lose, especially whenn Freddy is turning them over! Ponting is really doing a top job as the whinging bad guy, is he available for the panto season?
On a serious note, 4 wicket halls for Anderson/Swann, decent support from Broad and Onions, runs for Strauss, Cook, Colly and Prior, and some superb catching show this wasn't a one man show. Freddy did a great job but I think those wickets would have fallen on the final day even without him, though it may have been a bit more nail biting!
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Anderson (in Australia's crucial 1st innings) and Strauss, with the bat and in slips ;) were more influential on the outcome of this match than Fatty. Yes FF took 5 in the 2nd dig, but the facts are Australia still made 400+. The difference between the 2 teams was their respective 1st innings, where Strauss dominated for South Africa, I mean England, with the bat, and Anderson destroyed Australia's top order.
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Have just read through these comments and cannot believe what I am reading. Most people gave England a bashing after the first test (which was fair enough, we played very poorly in most areas). This time around, we have played very well - and still everyone wants to give England a bashing. Fact is we had a bit of luck, but you make your own luck at times, and we were by far the better side, pretty much man-for-man: Our openers outdid their openers, okay their middle order did slightly better than ours in the second innings (honours equal in the first), Prior kept wicket better than Haddin and scored almost the same number of runs. The worst of our bowling was still decent, and equal to the best of theirs, while the best of our bowling (Anderson and Flintoff) was on a different plane to anything they were capable of. And Swann outbowled Hauritz (although to be fair Hauritz was injured). Our fielding on balance was better than theirs apart from a few sloppy moments.
I hope the comments from people on here are not representitive of what the rest of the country thinks. If so, I don't know why these guys bother slogging it out the way they do. Sorry but I am a bit embarrassed to be English if this is the slating we give our side after they outplay the Australians. What do you guys want the team to do before you say something nice about them? I think if we'd won the series 5-0 some of you would still find something to moan about. And please don't criticise Oliver Brett for writing a complimentary piece on what should be a day to celebrate a great victory.
And for those complaining about Flintoff's celebrations, did anyone else notice that as the England players were hugging each other after the last wicket, Flintoff was the only guy who went to both Aussie batsmen to shake hands, and the umpires, before joining the rest of the team? No criticism of the rest of the players, you can understand their jubilation, but it reminds us again that he is a good bloke.
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De maaaan!! Look at him! Isn't he the best! Doesn't matter that he doesn't come close statistically to all time best players. Or that when he's not in England he gets slapped to all parts of the park. Or that he has hardly any 5 wicket innings hauls. The fact is he puts on a show and I love it! If I weren't english I may call him a idiot but I'm not and I won't. Freddy my lad, I love you and you are the Lords king!!
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Freddie is the most natural bowler i have seen in world crick right now . Its disappointing that i cant watch him again . Hope he rethinks on his retirement from test cricket . I have seen him bowling in India in the lifeless wicket . The bounce he is able to generate there , the typical sliding delivery across the left handers on chest high thats amazing if you can do it in India that shows you are the best ...
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Boredatlords - If you're referring to me, actually I'm not Australian. Just because I'm intelligent enough to think for myself and not swallow all the hype surrounding a clearly overrated player, does not mean I'm bitter at the result. I'm actually neutral and just want to see good cricket. What I don't like is massive adulation of a bloke who can only perform once every 4 years - it's not the Olympics Fatty!!
Usedtobeenglish - Oh, yes, Fatty is a very good sport when he's winning. Didn't quite go like that last time down in Australia though!
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Just who is this Oliver Brett clown anyway? Surely with writing of that sycophantic, crawling nature he belongs more with The Sun than the BBC.
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No reasonable fan on either side should go to the extent of alleging that England had 13 players on, including the two in white coats. But the fact that England got some umpiring largess through three vital decisions. The more discreet tactfully refer to it as 'rub of the green', hoping to euphemise it. Lingering doubt will remain whether England could do it without the gratuitous advantage or Australia pull it off without the crippling disadvantage.
To be fair to England, they have to abide with dodgy umpiring decisions as much as the Aussies regardless of which side gets favored. The only decision that incurred some culpability was the Strauss catch. Perhaps the English captain did not have the presence of mind to retract his claim when the batsman hesitated to walk, or perhaps he was genuinely sure of a clean catch. Enigmatically Rudi chose the second umpire for a referral rather than the third.
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SensationalGoBlues, you say " As with any other form of statistics, cricket stats over a long period, and therefore an appropriate sample size, don't lie. And the stats show Fatty, sorry Freddie, has had a couple of good series, the rest of the time he has been average at best. "
You obviously haven't actually looked at Flintoff's stats, because if you had, then you would not be calling him 'average at best'. Admittedly, the start of his career was a bit 'ropey', but maybe that was because he was introduced too early - I don't know.
However, since the beginning of 2004 (a total of 48 matches, over 5 1/2 years, including numerous injuries to cope with) Flintoff's stats are as follows:
Fielding - 37 catches.
Batting - 2533 runs @ 35.67
Bowling - 173 wickets @ 28.15
A Test Match bowling average of just over 28 is definitely not 'average'!
I'd like to see you try to tell Sir Ian Botham that his career batting and bowling averages of 33.54 and 28.40 respectively, showed him to be 'average at best'!
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When I played cricket many moons ago the team consisted of eleven players and a designated twelfth man. Not a thirteenth, fourteenth, fifteenth, sixteenth man, ad infinitum. Nor were substitiutes allowed on the field to allow injured players to consistently receive treatment for on-going injuries not related to that specific match. Some of the army of twelfth men that England employ are not even on the pre-named squad.
Being an Englishman abroad (living in Ireland) I shudder shamefacedly at some of the dubious tactics the England team uses in regard to this grey area of the rulebook. If Flintoff hadn`t gone on and off the field at regular intervals for treatment on his knee (it sure wasn`t for toilet breaks and manicures), then he wouldn`t have finished the test. The English players seem to be able to wander on and off the field as they wish, and are automatically substituted, and never by the same man twice.
The Aussies to their credit haven`t as yet made too much of the issue, but I really think they should make more of it. The powers that be have to really get their teeth into this flounting of the laws, and either stringently enforce the twelfth man regulations...or change them.
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why the downers on Onions? bowled well in the first innings, carrying injury in the second. if he is fit, he deserves his spot UNQUESTIONABLY. he has performed well every time he has appeared for England, impossible to suggest otherwise. do you think if they pick GBH the 2004 version is just going to turn up at Edgbaston 5 years later? how short are you memories? he was hounded out last time.
harmy deserves a chance but only if one of the others in possession are unable to take their place. broad may not be our most potent bowler but there is no guarantee harmy will fare better, only a chance. would harmison have taken wickets? you just dont know. no way he would have taken that stunning catch either
and all this talk of good bowling at county level. who is the top wicket taker? oh its graham onions
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datatarathian - yep, just another example of that English sportsmanship. Deliberate flouting of the rules that they know they get away with - in England anyway.
fuzzyfelt30 - whilst a bowling average of 28+ over the last 5 years is better than his career stats, it is still nowhere near the god-like status that English fans (and Fatty himself) seem to afford it.
Re Botham, well he was very good but also nowhere as good as the English would have you believe. He retained a reputation made from his amazing 1981 series, yet for the rest of his career never came close to replicating those performances. His figures overall against Australia included an average of less than 30 with the bat and around 27 with the ball, so again nothing earth shattering, and against the best team of the era, the West Indies, his numbers are pathetic (21 batting, 35 bowling). Geez, he wasn't even the best allrounder of his generation, with Imran easily having better batting and bowling averages (37 batting, 22 bowling), yet the Poms would have you believe he was the greatest of all time! There's that British hype again of going way over the top in any success you have.
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Flintoff's intimidating broadsides at speeds consistently in excess of 90 mph were just what England needed. When did we last see Aussie batsman in genuine discomfort from aggressive bowling? But this was a team win with ample support from Anderson, Broad, Onions and especially Swann.
There is not a lot between these sides and it is important that Strauss continues to use Flintoff as his aggressive front line bowler. The Aussies do not look quite so assured against the pace and bounce of Freddie and that may mean Harmison should get another chance too. However I thought all the bowlers played their role on a day where it would have been easy for England to have become frustrated and bogged down especially as Clarke and Haddin had done so well.
Ponting redeem himself as a great captain in his after match interview and, as he promised, the Aussies will try to come back strongly at Edgbaston. If I were Strauss, and injuries permitting, I'd play unchanged. Onions bowled well and has the action that is well suited to consistent line and length over a long session. Broad also bowled much better in the second innings when cutting out the short stuff. Bopara needs one decent innings to show his talent and just needs to concentrate a little more on his own game when under attack.
Well done England. It was a long time coming but well worth the wait.
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As we in England revel in our limelight it is well to think a bit on some facts conveniently left off in the reporting.... 3 outs, 2 from Flintoff, were not out. There he was, Freddie, in a fantastic superhero pose as good as Batman any day, basking in false limelight.
The England Captain, fresh from a 1st test debacle as he sent in the blatant time-wasters, claiming a catch that wasn't and a properly referred request to the 3rd umpire would have shown that. But the Captain knew it all along. Did he not think he would be questioned? The mind boggles.
Then the finale, Freddie on one knee with arms outstretched to the crowds looking for every moment like a king about to be beheaded.... but acting like the hero that he clearly isn't.
Makes me and others sick to be English and see this falsehood and lie and then calling it a magnificent victory.
The Australians are right to hold us to task for our poor sportsmanship. It was a victory in terms of winning the game, but it was a failure in sport. We in England need to win with no questions hanging over our heads, then we can call the victory magnificent. And not before. We do have much to recover from.
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"69. At 02:59am on 21 Jul 2009, Lobstergogs wrote:
I like Flintoff, he is a top player and great for the game, but his recent wicket celebrations are bordering on ridiculous. His trademark arms spread in recognition of his awesomeness has now evolved into kneeling, arms spread with his eyes shut, like he is receiving plaudits from God himself. Is he retiring through injury or because he plans on developing a new career as the next messiah? "
Oh, reign your neck in. He plays for the crowd. They will him to take wickets for them, and when he does, he acknowledges them. It's unbelievable what we will knock our sportsman for in this country. He played a fantastic game but OH! he didn't celebrate 'properly'? Execute him!
And anyone who boils sport down to pure stats kind of misses the entire point of sport. Do the stats say who the wickets were? When they were taken? What the effect on the team and the crowd were? Did they stir the heart and fire the blood? Can you tell that from the statistics?
Is Flintoff the greatest player ever? No. He isn't. Does he play with a smile? With great sportsmanship? With great heart? Is he exciting to watch? Is he occasionally brilliant? Yes he is.
But we tear him down because his stats aren't as good as you would like and he doesn't celebrate 'properly'.
What a miserable country.
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To sensationalGoBlues ---
["yep, just another example of that English sportsmanship. Deliberate flouting of the rules that they know they get away with - in England anyway."]
The twelfth man rule is a grey area. I don`t think it has anything to do with bad sportsmanship of players, but of expediency of management and of bewildered officialdom. The lack of enforcement of the regulations is down to said officialdom, and the standing umpires. It`s the same for all teams. Just that England seems to flout the "grey" rules more than most.
A player can be announced fit at the start of a match, but can break down during it. But is such a breakdown because of an injury sustained during the match, or because of a recurring injury sustained in previous ones? The umpires are not medical experts. Therein lies the problem. However there should only be ONE twelfth man who should be designated before the match starts. If more than one player is injured...tough luck!
I`m not downgrading Flintoff`s performance on the 5th day, it was magnificent. Just that if it weren`t for "illegal" treatment during a match, it`s doubtful he would have lasted to the 5th day and/or have been able to produce such a performance. Neither probably would Pieterson have lasted the test. Nor if the rules had been strictly observed would they have been allowed fielding substitutes. With both Flintoff and Pieterson starting the match with well-publicised injury problems, England at certain times could have been restricted to only nine men on the field.
The twelfth man rule must be rectified, and quickly. To my mind, as it stands, it sours what otherwise was a great test match, with great performances, and until fixed it will continue to sour forthcoming ones.
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Great to win but the umpires need to be rewarded for all the decisions that they gave to us! The aussies have taken defeat wonderfully well and have not whinged about the dodgy decisions. Ricky Ponting needs to be praised for his acceptance of the decisions.
My respect for him has gone up immeasurably! They will come up hard for the next one! Beware!
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It was clear in 2005 that the Aussies feared Freddie most and there's a carry-over from that now. No surprise really, accurate 90+mph bowling that also does a bit does a bit tends to upset even the highest quality batsmen. As regards Freddie's celebrations and having everyone line up to shake his hand, well he can do what he likes if he's going to bowl like that. There's no bowler in the world as destructive as he is on such a benign pitch as Lord's was.
I saw a reference to Swann's 4 wickets not getting as much coverage. Good. Monty suffered from the pressures of being the next great hope and if Freddie's antics mean that Swann gets missed, so much the better. Our press seem less interested in England winning Test matches and more interested in who they can build up and destroy.
Can't we just celebrate a really top performance after such a disappointment at Cardiff? A great team performance in which everyone played their part.
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If KP behaved the way that Flintman does he would be laughed out of the ground. The biggest ego in cricket was out there pretending to be Englands Saviour and the adoring mob were lapping it up and baying for more. Yuk
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plugmonkey i could not agree more!
but originalbloggs...what planet are you on..its people like you who are bringing this country down.
i'd like to see how you would behave after taking 5 wickets in your final test match at lords, against Australia...no doubt you'd barely celebrate, and then there would be people having a go at you saying there was no emotion in the game anymore. people like you just cant be pleased, if we won immacuately bowled them out for 5 and won in a day, you'd be saying we could have done it better.
so what if the decisions were dubious, you can only play against what your given to play against mate.
Also, the main reason i went to comment on this, was as amazing as Freddie was, both with the bat (2nd innings) and the ball, everyone was banging on about how important the wicket of ponting was in the 2nd innings, and who came up and bowled him but Stuart Broad. That man has been hit around the ground abit, and come under flak from alot of people in the media and on here, but he comes up with what all the updates were calling 'the most significant wicket', but he as far as i have seen anyway has received no plaudits, for bowling the australian captain and as i read 'almost ensuring us victory'...give the lad some credit, hes only 23, and to boot he has batted extremely well for someone who is supposed to be a bowler.
shame on you putting this victory down, and freddie, bring home the ashes boys!
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much is being said about the team for the next test,most seem an unchanged team is the answer with which I in principle agree. however, due attention has to be paid to the edgebaston pitch. it seems to be something of a feather-bed for batting which suggests the ausie team will score well. surely the selectors should look at bowlers who have don well on this pitch before deciding the line-up. I believe harmison did well when Durham gave warwickshire a beating not long ago.
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Good to see I hit a nerve with someone. sgu06sab you are wrong, it is not people like me who bring our country down, it is claiming what we don't earn.. The Australians have been very good at not harping on the poor decisions and false catches which is quite good for them and has made me think better of them. But in their minds, the facts are flowing as they must. And this will make them more dangerous in the next tests.
If we won fairly then they would be quaking in their boots because they would KNOW we were the better side. But right now, do you really think the Australians believe we are better? I don't think so.
I want to cheer and shout about my heros too, but those heros need to be clean heros. If Freddy won all that fairly I would be ecstatic and cheering as mad as anyone and say so here. His performance needs improving. As does the Captains.
I want to be able to hold my head high in front of the Aussies, as cheer squad for the victor. But that's a little difficult at this time. My conscience demands fair wins, not foul.
Are you reading this, Freddy? Are you reading this, Straus? Do it damn good, and do it right. Winning at any cost might keep your job, but it loses you respect.
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I do not see anything wrong in Flinty playing to the crowd. Many good players do it. Fred carries the crowd with his inspired play that draws strength from the crowd. Fine, no toll tax on that.
But injured players going into a game and misusing the substitution laws is unfair. The other side can morally object to it. Even though you may have ways to justify it in the book it will not be in the spirit of the game, just as repeated 12th man visits weren't at Cardiff.
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can'tfindmyglasses,
"The biggest ego in cricket was out there pretending to be Englands Saviour and the adoring mob were lapping it up and baying for more. Yuk"
So what! Freddie was milking the crowd and the crowd loved him for it. It's all part of the Ashes drama. To give the guy credit, his body is falling apart - beset with injury - rehab - injury - rehab. This was his moment for all the pain, upset and self doubt he's been through during recovery. All that hard work he's done to get himself back into the Test arena. You can't blame the guy. I agree it was OTT on Monday morning - particularly when the last two wickets were tailenders. But so what?
Meanwhile, go put your hair-shirt on and start flagellating.
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Every team resorts to time-wasting and other dubious tactics when necessary. As I said in my previous posts above, officials have to clamp down on such tactics. The will to win is all important, but as OriginalBloggs observed, not at any cost. The integrity of the game must be retained. Otherwise it`s ... well ... just not cricket!
As for umpiring decisions most teams accept bad ones with reasonable good grace (at least in public), and also accept that the swings and roundabouts of bad umpiring decisions are all part of the game. Umpires are only human. What cannot be accepted is umpiring inconconsistency which is what happened at Lords, although as I recall, thankfully only on one occasion.
Australia will come back hard at Edgbaston. They are by no means down and out by their defeat at Lords. I hope for an England win, not by using shady and somewhat illegal methods, but by the skill and perseverance of eleven fit men (and just one twelfth man).
If they do that, then I will applaud and cheer as loudly as anyone.
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@ sensationalGoBlues: love the immature comment about Strauss's SA heritige. Yes, he was born in Jo'burg, to an English mother. He moved to England aged 6, was educated here (he's an alumni of Durham University), and has played most of his cricket here (save for a brief spell playing junior grade cricket in Oz- nothing unusal in that as plenty of English crickiters have done that.)He's certainly played all his 1st Class cricket for Middlesex- an English team, fuded to a large extent by the ECB. He once commented during the last Engalnd tour of SA that it was useless proteas fans jerring him in Afrikaans as he can't speak the language owing to him never having been taught it! His Englishness is nothing like as dubious as KP's- the accusation that Pietersen is a cricketing mercenary is a lot harder to refute, but Strauss never expressed any desire to play for anyone but England (unlike KP).
Personally, I reckon it's sour grapes from an Aussie (don't hide your anti-English prejudice behing a veil of neutrality) who wishes Lord Brockett was opening their innings (the Aussies did have a claim on him and Strauss's wife, Ruth, is an Aussie) instead of Hughes the Hopeless!
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Originalbloggs firstly don't tell me i am wrong, on what is my own opinion. They are by there very nature subjective. The aussies are not harping on about it for the fact they would be called hypocrites, are you honestly saying that they have never had an umpiring decision go their way, so by your logic they are not worthy to be rated the best test nation as they have claimed it without earning it.
As with all sports, what goes around comes around, these things happen, and the decisions are human errors. You want freddy to play better!? I guess i do too, but that is being hailed as one of the greatest bowling performances in recent history, and led to him being suggested as the current number 1 bowler in the world. Yes if it was not his last series, if it wasn't against the australians, and if it wasn't a tight finish, then we may not be so ecstatic about it, and he would have been wrong to act how he did. but the fact is that was the situation, and everybody, him included just got swept away with the emotion. His celebrations i feel were fine. Much less cringe worthy and stupid that Panesar jumping and wailing like he's just won the lottery after bowling out tail enders, which he cant even seem to do anymore.
England have been on the end of so many sporting refereeing failures in the past (maradonna -hand of god) (the try that could(or could not have been) in rugby world cup final against the saffers), so I dont have any sympathy really. Yes the decisions were wrong and obviously it would be better to win it fairly, but at the end of the day, thats life. and if the same thing happens in the next test no i wont be harping on saying it wasn't fair although a lot of people will be, at the end of the day, thats just sport, and the controversy is just one of the factors that makes it so damn interesting.
Also your point about Strauss i feel is just 'wrong'. Since he's become captain his batting average as gone up and he's thrived. He made the (albeit) obvious choice to relegate Broad down the order to 2nd change bowler, when many would have just ploughed on with him, and gave Flintoff the nod and the new ball. Many also forget that it was pretty much him and cooky that are the main reason we won this test with there disciplined and superb first innings scores.
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"Softandfluffy" wrote:
"Meanwhile, go put your hair-shirt on and start flagellating."
I like flagelot beans but flagelating is not my scene. Far too much pain.
It is the method of those celebrations, not the celebrations themselves that are getting to people. Joyful, happy, sharing with team mates, smiling, winderful, just the way other players celebrate. But this "Look how wonderful I am, come and bow down before me" is a different kettle of fish.
And he did not win the match for England. There were quite a few other players who played just as significant a part. No applause and adoration for them. Freddie takes all of the glory. As usual. Still, he will probably be drunk from now until Edgmaston and will most likely miss the bus again.
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Whereas there is no doubt that Flintoff bowled extremely well his antics after taking a wicket were nothing short of nauseating. He is by far the most self-opinionated sportsman I have ever seen. Also don't get carried away - Flintoff's handful of good performances hardly warrant him as being considered a great.
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I think he was more saying thank you to the fans, and they were saying it to him to be honest as suggested in the article, but I guess only he will know this, although it seems unlikely he was saying how great he was.
Think Edgebaston 2005 and Brett Lee, he is a humble man, and a good sport.so what if the man likes a drink, who doesnt :P
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"They (Australia) are by no means down and out by their defeat at Lords."
Good god, the Aussies only need to win one of the three remaining Tests and draw two, and they have retained the Ashes. This series has hardly begun.
Gotospecsavers :o)
Look, I agree with your views. FF was OTT. If he had just got a hatrick by getting the top order out, then, yes, he would have deserved to milk the gallery for all it's worth. But this is the Ashes. So, allow him his moment of ham-acting and self-adulation. Players like Strauss, Anderson and particularly Swann also deserved the plaudits. But the media wanted a folk hero and Freddie is always ready to please.
No doubt 'England's saviour' woke up this morning with a hangover and was last seen in a pedalo heading up a Brummie canal!
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"although it seems unlikely he was saying how great he was" sgu06sab, what planet are you on today? He was saying, "I am the greatest!" Any clown down on on knee, arms spread to accept the adulation of the crowd is saying just that.
Freddy having a drink to celebrate is not the issue. In his shows any of us would. Freddy and his self-adoring antics are the issue. The man is a fool and he makes England look foolish. Sure, he had a good spell and knocked over a few tailenders who can't bat on a good day. Sure he should be happy about that. But his superhero antics make the team look like idiots and he lets us all down. I will be forever nauseated at the sight of him on one knee taking all the credit for a great team effort. He is not God, and a little humbleness will go a long way.
Insane adoration of his childish antics by people also lets us all down.
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As i said before, he is very humble, more so than an awful lot of modern sportsman(tennis players the only notable exception)
It was a farewell also.
honestly, its like some people on here have never celebrated anything in their life/want to say how average we are at every chance. get over it.
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[can'tfindmyglasses wrote... "It is the method of those celebrations, not the celebrations themselves that are getting to people. Joyful, happy, sharing with team mates, smiling, winderful, just the way other players celebrate. But this "Look how wonderful I am, come and bow down before me" is a different kettle of fish."]
I couldn`t agree more. And it happens every time he takes a wicket. It just makes me cringe!
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softandfluffy, i think you sum it up perfectly. bring on the next test.
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"He is by far the most self-opinionated sportsman I have ever seen"
KP....ronaldo....etc
he just calls it how he see's it.
itis almost like people on this site wish he'd broke his leg, we'd got no wickets and let the aussies win, its bizarre.
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couldnt agree more softandfluffy
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The guy's last Test match at Lords, its the Ashes and he's just picked up his first five wicket haul at Lords, adrenaline is pumping at 1000 miles an hour. Not only that but he captained the last series in Australia where we were whitewashed so maybe there was a hint of revenge in there. You don't think the guy has the right to feel pretty pleased with his achievements in this Test?
We're in an age where sportsmen and women are criticised constantly for having no character and acting like robots. Then here's someone who plays with his heart on his sleeve, is actually a bit different and has a bit of character and personality and isn't afraid to show it. Don't get me wrong he has overstepped the mark in the past and made mistakes but who hasn't?
How about letting the guy enjoy the moment and everything it means to him, he deserves it. He's put his body on the line for England so he certainly enjoys the plaudits that come his way after that sort of bowling performance.
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["it is almost like people on this site wish he'd broke his leg, we'd got no wickets and let the aussies win, its bizarre."]
If McGrath and Warne had been played whilst carrying a prior injury, and who then had been patched up consistently during the match and had been allowed fielding replacements from God knows where, the English press and public would screamed "Foul!" and have quite rightly branded the Aussies as cheats.
I can`t ever remember Warne looking for god-like adoration, and he certainly deserved such far more than Flintoff ever has. Stats occasionally lie, but not in Warne`s case.
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datarathian - Gower was actually the person in the commentary who questioned the 12th man substitution of Flintoff while Warne had less to say on the subject. Please don't blanket your accusations of how the English press and public might react. Its patently inaccurate in this case.
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That is because people are fickle. and also it is the rules, if we hadn't used it, quite frankly it would have been stupid.
and congratulations you've realised warne and flintoff are different people.
i never said Warne was better than flintoff, for starters there completely different players with different roles in the team. Typical English attitude, finding someone else who before has perhaps dont something better just to put us down.
"How about letting the guy enjoy the moment and everything it means to him, he deserves it. He's put his body on the line for England so he certainly enjoys the plaudits that come his way after that sort of bowling performance"
sums it up really. bye
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["and congratulations you've realised warne and flintoff are different people."]
True, but they both enjoyed the limelight and the adulation. The difference, and the point I`m making, is that Warne (which I only used as one example), who had by far a better record than Flintoff, accepted it but did not chase it.
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The problem is that Flintoff has always been nauseating after taking a wicket and not only in this test. What one likes to see in a true sportsman is humility and I don't think he even knows what the word means.I agree with a previous comment that not only is he nauseating he is also an embarrassment to English cricket.I may add that his teammates are not far behind with their superior attitudes.As for some of the English commentators - nerdy Atherton makes you want to puke. I guess part of the problem is that the English so seldom win anything they get carried away when they do.If it wasn't for their lack of sportsmanship it would be one all in the series.
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Who would believe that 5 out of Oz top 7 have made centuries in the first 2 tests, with 1 by England, and they are still 1 down in the series!!!
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I can't agree originalblogs - bad decisions have always been a part of the game. Of the disputed decisions - the no ball was not due to lack of England Sportsmanship, the Strauss catch is only disputed because of camera evidence which time and time again due to foreshortening is dubious - Doctrove was in a better position to see if the ball entered his hands fairly and gave his decision. The Mike Hussey catch looked to everyone in real time to have been a proper edge and I suspect the noise of Hussey's bat hitting the ground convinced umpires and fielders that it was a fair catch.
This was the rub of the green not cheating. I have not heard the Aussies complaining.
Your second point will Australia be quaking - no of course not they are a professional tough unit and will be looking to come back strong. If they get their selections right England will have to play very well to win the Ashes.
Now let's get back to talking cricket!
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["Please don't blanket your accusations of how the English press and public might react."]
I`m a member of the public, and I also worked for the press. I know exactly how they would react.
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reading the contributions made here, I hope I never find myself in a carpark,together with some of you, with only one space free. It would be bedlem!!!
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datatarathian,
You only know how you would react not how other people would ... having worked for the press, you must surely know the difference between fact and conjecture!!!
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Doom, gloom, we are rubbish, all other races are far superior to us, we mustn't smile about anything, Ban the union jack for being racist everything english is inferior. Have no pride in anything.
Welcome to the wierd world of the liberal left Englishman. I can see why our top sportsmen go to the Rtates or Oz, to train or settle after retirement. Which is why the Aussies admired Botham. We just moaned about his fondness for a pint or his inability to wear a tie properly. They loved his up and attem attitude. Not all of them obviously, but enough. Yer average brit loves Freddie for his heart not his stats. But that isn't good enough for mr. liberal wishy-washy. he must look emabarassed when he takes a wicket, apologise and promise not to do it again.
They do the same to Faldo, Mansell, Hamilton and most other top English sportsmen with a will to win. It makes them feel uncomfortable and it must be "Wrong" so knock him down, who does he think he is strutting like a peacock in front of a packed house. If Cantona had been English he would have been banned for being exuberant. They all hate the English but not quite as much as the "English" hate themselves. Get over it.
Fred's great and the best we have so celebrate it and if you can't celebrate put the Guardian down for a second and raise a glass at least.
C'mon mr. Gwumpy smile.......we're winning.
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Andrew Flintoff rolled back the years with a fantastic display of pace bowling against, Australia as he managed to pick up his first 5 wicket haul at the home of cricket yesterday.
Flintoff announced at the start of the Test Series that he is to retire from Test Cricket at the end of the Ashes campaign but he bowled with the same pace and venom that he did 4 years ago, on day 5 at Lord's.
The brilliance of Flintoff has enabled England to take a 1-0 lead in the series, and put the pressure firmly back on Australia, after the tourists had dominated much of the 1st Test Match in Cardiff.
England's victory is their first Ashes triumph at Lords for 75 years and they will now go into the 3rd Test at Edgbaston confident of experiencing further success.
In 2005 Australia won the First Test at Lords before England battled back to win an epic Test Match at Edgbaston by just 2 runs.
http://oddsbet.typepad.com/
http://www.englandbettingodds.co.uk/
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brilliant victory for England and througholy deserved considering the dire Australian performance. England surely held a vital physcological edge going into this test after the escape at Cardiff; but I also believe that the effect Freddie had on this test cannot be stressed enough. to see a man hurtling testing delieveries consistantly in the ninety mph zone must be so disheatening for te Aussies; and to see a man playing with such intesity for the cause of England will only ever spur our players on. wonderful team effort to win this test, and if Freddie our talisman and stay fit and firing on all cylinders we must be favourites to regain the Ashes.
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["You only know how you would react not how other people would ... having worked for the press, you must surely know the difference between fact and conjecture!!!"]
A fair point, but experience tells me I`m right about what the reaction would have been. However, since when has the press been concerned with facts? :-)
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Flintoff is not an embarrassment to English cricket. What is an embarrassment to English cricket is that there are still people who follow the game, who see a guy showing emotions and revelling in what is probably a lifelong dream for him (most young bowlers would love to take 5 wickets against the Aussies at Lords) and react by making up any criticism they can think of rather than being happy for the guy and happy we won. Why is that - is it jealousy?
It was great to see how happy Flintoff and all the other players were, and it was really fun to watch. And that's the whole point of sport, and I bet everyone who was at the ground will remember that day for the great atmosphere and fun that it was. Personally I like a guy who when being cheered by the grandstands makes the effort to turn to the different corners of the ground and acknowledge their presence. I can't believe how so many people have found so many reasons to be negative from this match. It's rather sad really and reflects on the people making the comments, rather than the English team.
Who knows, maybe Australia would have got closer to the total without the early wickets from umpiring decisions, but as someone else said, maybe we should have won the 1986 World cup and the 2007 Rugby world cup but the decisions didn't go against us. We shouldn't have been allowed the extra-time goal in 1966, but the Germans shouldn't have had the last minute freekick from which they equalised in normal time. These mistakes happen from time to time, and they are part of sport - get over it.
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datatarathian,
You can guarantee that the facts in any paper with a red top will be 100% accurate!!
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Actually purpleangelgeorgina has made the same point as me but put it much better (and typed it quicker).
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Amssahit is right: poor decisions have always been part of the game. If I remember correctly, John Dyson was run out at Sydney in 1983, given not out and went on to play an innings that scuppered any chance of England retaining the Ashes - but England were still outplayed in that match, as Australia were here.
Mike Hussey shouldn't feel too hard done by, either: he was actually lbw (but given not out) a short time before he got the rough decision.
Regarding Freddie - he's brilliant, AND a great role-model (again shaking the hands of his vanquished opponents, just like in '05). What is worrying about the English mentality is their eagerness to knock him just for being charismatic (if you want to see TRULY yobbish fist-pumping and roaring, look no further than Andy Murray); and also why is it that most (but not all) of the other England players need to be 'lifted' by FF's presence? Isn't the thrill of playing for your country against the Old Enemy inspiration enough?
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I do get a bit bored with the lionising of Freddie. Good player and a bit of a talisman but no way is he half as good as the press (or the 'once every four years cricket fans') make out. And "best bowler in the world"-what a joke.
Ultimately we all like the guy but when it comes down to it in 50 years time it will be Cook and Strauss that people will remember because they will (fitness permitting) be the opening pair for many years, and the as long as the cricketing gods stay on side will finish their careers with huge batting stats. Remember Strauss only needs 5 centuries more and he'll be englands highest ever century scorer.
And if Fred is god then who is Botham? (remember him?-as it stands 9 more centuries and 160 odd wickets than Fred)
Its all very exciting and I love doing the aussies over at any sport possible-but a bit of rational perspective would be nice too.
Rocket
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# 119 purpleangelgeorgina
Thanks angel, you've written very perceptively. I liked it immensely.
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Bare in mind that the comment about best bowler in the world was made by Shane Warne, one of the best (if not the best) ever, and a man who watches cricket all round the world including the recent series between Oz/SA and Oz/India. Flintoff probably isn't the best around at the minute, who knows, but I doubt anyone would have given you a better display of bowling than he gave on that 5th day, and given the importance of the situation that is what he is being celebrated for at the moment. This article was to talk about the performance he has just given in this test. It is not talking about what he has done before, and not comparing him to any other bowlers past or present, it is just saying "well done for yesterday".
When someone passes their driving test, you say "well done", you don't say "well you failed the last time so you shouldn't have passed this time" and you don't say "who cares, loads of other people have passed already" - it's just about that person at that time. And at the minute we are congratulating Flintoff (and co) for what they achieved yesterday. Previous test matches are a different issue, as are test matches in the future.
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purpleangelgeorgina - I don't think you can equate that awful attitude of putting down your best sportsmen with being liberal. Some of you might consider me to be one of those but I deplore the attitudes of those who would talk down a sportsman like Flintoff.
I can understand that people might be frustrated if they perceive players they rate highly being overlooked when the champagne is handed out, and I know some people don't like the theatre of some celebrations. However, a kneejerk too far the other way in suggesting that Flintoff is little more than ordinary needs to be reconsidered with a cool head. The name-calling of one particular contributor is very shabby. One can only assume that person is a child and doesn't know any better.
Flintoff was glorious in his last test at Lords. As far as I'm concerned he can celebrate any way he likes. Other performances were also excellent - Strauss, Prior, Swann, Anderson. Let's celebrate them all.
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this blog compliments Oliver's words superbly...
http://theluridrevelations.blogspot.com/
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Datarathian (79)
In response to your misguided rant
England take their subs from the county at which the test match is being played, so at Lords they would have been young Middlesex players. These are not the 12th man and both teams have them/are entitled to them. This player will act as a sub fielder drinks man etc and does not have to be from the England squad.
English players seem to be able to wander on and off the field as they wish, and are automatically substituted, and never by the same man twice
The English players namely FF (knee), KP (achilles) and Onions (elbow) went off for treatment on clear injuries and were replaced by the sub as named before the game started. This is within the rules. The latter part of your sentence is a bizarre lie two sub fielders were used by England during the Lords Test and one was used at Cardiff (another was used to help waste time by bringing on batting gloves. Whilst I found this cringeful, all teams do it Oz have been reprimanded by the ICC for timewasting a number of occasions. You will find that M Johnson spent a lot of time off the pitch although not with an injury. Presumably he was talking to Troy Cooley about his terrible bowling?
You push for a change in the rules when you clearly dont have a clue as to what they actually are. Essentially you are shuddering shamefacedly at England playing within the rules!
Your whole post seems a little confused and I can only assume that when you refer to having played cricket many moons ago you were not playing test cricket and it was back in those heady pre war years. The rules relating to sub fielders are easily obtainable. I suggest that familiarise yourself with them before criticising a team for breaking them when they havent.
Also your comments about Warne not chasing adulation are comical at best and idiotic at worse. I can only presume that you are employing a degree of irony which is beyond my level of intelligence. The man is a self promoting as they come and would turn up at the opening of an envelope. That said I agree with you in that he is a far superior cricketer to Flintoff.
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Aussies could not fire, why?
Aussies could not spark, why?
Why, Aussie?
I will tell you, why?
Andrew took your flint off
Andrew took your flint off
And it happened at the Lord's
Oh Lord!
Andrew took Aussie flint off
Andrew took Aussie flint off
©Addai-Sebo
21 July 2009
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Not fashionable to say it I know but not enough 5 wicket hauls and not enough hundreds to be considered a great. Flintoff reminds me in many ways of injury prone Bryan Robson for whom late in his career it became known that many of these injuries were the result of over-training to compensate a beer habit.
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["You push for a change in the rules when you clearly dont have a clue as to what they actually are. Essentially you are shuddering shamefacedly at England playing within the rules!"]
Exactly where have I said that England was playing outside the law? What I said was that "I shudder shamefacedly at some of the dubious tactics the England team uses in regard to this grey area of the rulebook." I also inferred in a later post that all teams are guilty of them but England more than most.
As for the number of players "wandering" on or off the field in the Lords test. Here are some that I recall from memory who did just that. Pieterson, Flintoff, Onions, Broad, Cook, Collingwood, Strauss, Anderson. That only leaves three of the team who didn`t, and that includes the wicketkeeper.
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To all those who say Flintoff is provably not as good as we think he is - next time a Graeme Smith or Chanderpaul or Ponting etc are cruising towards 150 against us, I defy you not to be wishing we had Freddie to turn to. As Anderson has acknowledged (and to be fair, as is obvious to cricket followers), the impact of FF is often to disrupt batsmen so that they fall at the other end.
No-one in England (and it's hard to think of anyone currently playing in the world) has the level of impact Fred has, by sheer force of personality and fast, scary bowling. The man is a lion.
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If I were one of his team-mates I'd be looking at todays press and wishing his injuries would come back! "Freddie wins it for England" etc... Poor old Strauss bats all day for 161, makes all the right moves and gets a well-deserved victory (and I say that as an Aussie) and gets no credit at all! Flash Freddie comes along in the last session, having done nothing for the first four days, mops up a few tail-enders and walks off with all the glory! (And that I-AM-the-Messiah pose! Oh please...the others must be seething!)
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Annie-Lou: hope no-one has to be in a team with you. Apart from the sparseness of intellect ("having done nothing for the first four days, mops up a few tail-enders" - why have TMS overlooked you as a pundit?), you would wish injury on your successful teammate and seem to think that Flintoff is writing his own press. Please! I've read some drivel in my time, but yours is quite possibly the worst...
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Agreed Oxfordfan, both Annie-Lou and that other irksome one seem to have a hot line to what others "must" be thinking. By annie's reckoning there is no such thing as a team as everyone is hoping the others fail, how dare they celebrate success. As baldrick once said, stupidy-stupidy-stupidy.
To me that is the downside of the 'net. Every numpty has an opinion and thinks for whatever misguided reason that it actually matters. So because you don't like Flintoff, his team-mates must loathe his success too, the other must be seething..... I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, but really do yourself a favour and keep it to yourself, because you looked really foolish with that one.
Did Swanny look seething? Takes 4 wickets and that "fat northern git" takes all the credit...didn't look like it to me. Straussy must hate having good players in the side.
On another related point, ask anybody that matters from the world of Cricket who they would least like to face at the moment, It ain't Graham Onions that's for sure. When the people that have played the game at the very highest level say Flintoff is the best at the moment, what arrogance must it be that to think we know better. Because we have a typewriter?
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What is the problem here? Like very many sportsmen in very many sports, Freddie thrives on the attention he gets from the crowd. Yes, he milks it, but so what? He enjoys it and so do 99% of those who watch him. If he was going round like Mohammed Ali saying "I am the greatest" then fair enough, because he isn't. But I've never heard anything from him more arrogant than "I was pretty pleased with my performance today".
More to the point, any sport needs its (anti-)heroes, its larger-than-life guys who don't necessarily do it by the book - cricket perhaps more so. And it's always had them - WG, Armstrong, Jardine, Compton, Miller, Trueman, Lillee, Richards, Miandad, Botham, Warne, even KP... not all of them universally loved and quite a few guilty of disreputable stuff from time to time. But without them the game would definitely be the poorer: it turns into a robotic, statistical exercise that you could just as well play on a computer.
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"If it wasn't for their lack of sportsmanship it would be one all in the series."
How so?
I presume you mean Cardiff, Day Five and the physio incident.
98 overs were scheduled for the day. 98 overs were bowled.
Play was scheduled to end at 6:40 if we were still batting. The gloves and physio wasted about 2 minutes. Play finished after 6:42. If the incident hadn't happened, and Hauritz/North got the last wicket at 6:39, Australia would have had to score 13 runs (or was it more?) off one over, most likely to be bowled by Flintoff.
It was silly by England, but it had no effect on the final result.
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strauss should have been man of the match in all fairness
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I get a little confused with the English sporting attitude as portrayed in #83. Flintoff got a wicket off a no-ball not spotted by the umpire; fair enough but not exactly the first time it has happened. The other deduction about Strauss'"catch" defies belief. The umpires conferred over whether the ball had carried and concluded it had - what's to refer? Oh, but hang on, you mean the TV replay, head on to Strauss and in HD slow-mo. Inconclusive since it was not in 3D. Slowed down did the ball hit the ground? Well you just cannot tell since a) the ground is not flat and b) Strauss' hands were below the lens horizon angle meaning what you see as grass near his hands is actually grass much closer to the camera. Only when he lifts his hands do you see his fingers under the ball. New tech has its strengths but also big weaknesses too.
Did Strauss know the ball had bounced in front of him? That was not his immediate reaction to Ponting's question and Strauss is a proud man.
Not so very long ago all decisions were made by the umpires; now it is no different except for the imperfect 2D camera which is adequate for run outs, stumpings, and some lbw decisions but unsatisfactory on catches. But let's give Flintoff some credit - had those decisions not stuck then he would still have taken five wickets because he was that good.
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What a pity that Mr Flintoff did not stay as a patron for CAFT for children with disabilities or came from a disadvantaged family - but left as it did not 'bring him enough media attention' and now alas he his helping with his wife on a new charity with children who need physiotherapy!!!!
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144 - Yes, what an awful person he must be. This is the same person listed on their website as a patron? What do you hope to achieve by this post? Even if he's changed charity commitments, who said what you have quoted? How awful that he's working with his wife on injured children - what a monster!
The fact Freddie's done so well seems to have brought a nasty breed of individuals out of hiding, trying desperately to bash him on the most spurious of charges. It happens all the time with other sportsmen too (Murray, Rooney, Lampard etc).
Flintoff was Wisden cricketer of the year 04 and ICC player of the year 05. Not because he's popular, not because of hype, but because in the opinions of people who know something, he has been one of the best cricketers around. He's in the middle of a remarkable comeback from a succession of long-term injuries and appears to be approaching (in short bursts, sadly) the heights of form he had during those years. So he's not an 'average' player, and if you read or watch interviews he's generous in his praise of others and modest about himself. He's not famous because he asked the media to overblow his profile, and he's not popular with all intelligent cricket fans for that reason either. He's just liked because of the way he performs and the way he conducts himself.
I really despise this attitude amongst a section of British sports 'fans'. If you have genuinely got nothing at all to say but snidey, nasty insinuations, please, for all of our sakes, keep it to yourself.
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Oxfordfoxfan, you really are a naive individual. But you just go on swallowing the hype and cheer squad like, 'quality' journalism such as this. Others prefer to think for themselves and form their own opinion.
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Well done Flintoff and England on a superb display and fantastic entertainment. But they were very lucky with the weather on Sunday. I live in Chesham (NW of London on the Metropolitan line) and between 11am and 3pm it was very wet with frequent rain showers. Yet at Lords there was a full days play, so the Weather Gods were looking kindly on the MCC.
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Toovain, keep your charity pish off a sports blog please.
As for plugmonkey, I am a Scot living in Australia so can say anything I want about your English players.
I quite like Freddy's normal celebrations, they bring some style to the game, but you got to admit his new ones were painful. When he was on his knees, arms spread and eyes shut, he opened one eye to see where his team mates were. You could tell he was thinking 'Oh god, please hurry up, I feel like a numpty' hehehe
To be honest he is my favourite player out of your mob, which isn't hard as half of them are saffers.
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Amazing performance from the big man!
I believed that the English bowling attack was more threatening overall before the series, and thus put a few bob on the lads to win the Lords Test at the absurd odds of 5/1.
Special thanks to Andrew Flintoff being so destructive and helping me win my bet :)
PS: Wasnt it just so great seeing a hostile FAST bowler making batsmen consistently hop around the crease scared?? The fact it was Australian batters getting worked over was even sweeter. I know I loved it.
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Allrounder Freddie is a born match-winner. May he go on and on. His five wicket haul brought a glorious end to a well contested encounter at the historic headquarters of world cricket.
Dr. Cajetan Coelho
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Here's the thing about blogs like this. It gives an opportunity to people to have their say, indeed and that is their right. However what is generally being said is such vapid nonsense that it brings to mind the character called "Norris Cole" in Coronation Street.
Nothing good to say about everything, not just anything. Generally life has been harsh and unsuccessful so the resentment towards those who have been successful rears it's head. If this were a PC free world and they spouted this nonsense in their local they would be shunned or viewed as odd, or even in extreme circumstances given a good stiff talking to. The internet gives these sad types the opportunity to be brave in anonymity, to say things to be noticed and feel "yeah, I am important, look what I said" whereas other readers, me for one, just thinks what an idiot, what a numpty and probably more perceptively "what a Billy-no-mates".
So Norris, hiding safely in your bedsit, keep on whining, for after all, when the PC is switched off and we go back to our lives, with the joy of a 100% bona fide star performance still in our hearts, you can go back to your pot noodle and sorting the papers.
Well done lads, more of the same please and less of the Jekyll and Hyde. Roll on Brummigum. (That's Birmingham btw).
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Well done England, this will be the turning point in the series. Australia had all to gain after cardiff but lost it completely at lords. They will come back hard at Edgbaston. England needs to be consistent, Bopara, KP, Broad and Cook really need to be consistent. The series is far from over yet.England can't be complacent at all.Consistency is the key fom here on. Australia needs to get Brett lee in at any cost. We know that this ozz bowling attack did roll over South Africa but we know how vulnerable South Africa can be at times and so they are termed as chokers, look at their fate in the recently concluded T20 World Cup.
This Ashes summer is still wide open.
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Re# 151
Someone has just pointed something out to me.
The phrase "sorting the papers" is in fact a reference to Norris Cole's job, where he works in a newsagent and would regularly sort the daily papers for distribution. It is in no way an insinuation or euphemism for "Choking the Chicken" or "adjusting the antenna". Apologies if anyone felt I was casting aspersions. There glad that's cleared up. Phew.
Oh and to keep on topic, who thinks KP is due for a rest? Get his head and ankle sorted. He looked strangely all at sea, and he still got 70 odd overall. England need him firing. He could be the first player to come out of an ashes series averaging 50+ playing like a dog.
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purpleangelgeorgina - Top stuff, good to know there's someone with a brain writing these comments. And I think I agree about KP - the middle of the first test first innings aside he's been woeful. I hope that when the achilles is sorted the head will follow, but not sure.
At Lord's he wasn't able to bat, run or field, so why pick him and risk making it worse? To those who say he made 44, I know, but it was slow and ugly, and he never looked comfortable. He's arguably our most devastating player, but not if he's unable to play his game due to an injury. The only question is: if he's out, how does our batting lineup go? If both Ravi and Bell are feeling pressure, can they both play? At 3 and 4? And if not, who else is there?
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Freddie was playing very well considering his fitness, but I do think this whole hero-worshipping thing is going a bit far. In the first innings he only got 4 runs and had the worst strike rate of any bowler who bowled more than one over. In the second he was batting pretty solidly before England declared, and he did get 5 wickets, but two of those were tail-enders. Swann did just as well, removing 4 wickets (all tough ones) at roughly the same strike rate, but I don't see anyone jumping up and down in adulation for him.
Could it all be because Flintoff is a big guy who just happened to mop up the last couple of wickets? A bit of heightism perhaps?
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Why do so many people seem incapable of separating statistics from influence and effect? It's not just the number of wickets he takes, it's the effect he has on both his own team and the opposition. Several Australians who played in the 2005 series came out before this one and publicly said that Flintoff was absolutely vital to England's chances of success because they are fully aware of the aura that surrounds him and the influence he can have on a game. He's rather like Steven Gerrard; there are plenty of midfielders with more natural ability than him, but the effect he has on the team cannot be exaggerated. Also, the talk of stats is largely irrelevant; firstly FF is an all-rounder so his figures with bat and ball are unlikely to be as good as a specialist batter or bowler. Secondly his injuries have hampered him. It annoys me incredibly the way this country over hypes prospects or average sportsmen, but Flintoff is clearly someone with world class ability.
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I have never read so much drivel in all my life! The degree to which people fawn over Flintoff is disgusting!
So he took 5-92 when Australia where chasing a massive 522 to win! Big deal! Hardly in the same league as Bob Willis' 8-43 in 1981.
And not even in the same league as Botham. Flintoff 1 wicket in the 1st innings, 4 & 30* with the bat, and the 5 wickets in the second innings for only the 3rd time in his test career (about time). Botham in 1981 took 5 wickets in the 1st innings and mad a 50 and a 100 with the bat.
Flintoff may have helped apply the coup de grace, but this was a team performance set up by the opening partnership of Cook and Strauss in the 1st innings. Let us not forget that despite Flinoff's 'heroics' Australia still passed 400 in that second innings. One of the highest 4th innings scores ever.
And as for those who say he's the best bowler in the world? I'm sorry, but I'd rather have a bowler that takes wickets. Give me Shaun Pollock any day.
Please can we stop the childish hero worship.
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purpleangelgeorgina - finally, sombody talking some sense on here.. :)
to those complaining about England fans calling Flintoff the best bowler in the world, here's a quote from Shane Warne's commentary on Sky on monday..
"For my money, he's the best bowler in the world right now"
so, not just some English fans opinion but also the opinion of probably the best bowler the game's ever seen...
nuff said...
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I predict the following to occur at the next test in Birmingham:
1-Umpires will allow England's players to claim catches that are 'one hand, one bounce'.
2-England(again) will play against the spirit of the game
3-Flintoff will injure himself whilst in the middle of one of his ugly, arrogant celebrations that show no respect to his team mates
4-The media will yet again fail to comment on England's sledging
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fantasticPlayFair -
hahahaha, what a sanctimonious, inaccurate pile of drivel......i predict you will dissapear up your own behind by the next test in Birmingham...
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While Flintoff produced an excellent display of consistent fast bowling, am I the only person in the UK who thinks that all the media adulation is over-the-top. Swann took four wickets, Strauss played a wonderful innings, Anderson's first innings spell really set England on the way to an historic win. Flintoff's posing after every wicket says much about his belief that he is bigger than the team. Come on journalists, praise is justified but let's remember this is a team game and stop affording Flintoff and Peterson celebrity status. It can only happen in this country.
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I think we have to put Flintoff's bowling ability in perspective. He has taken 225 test wickets at an average of 32.17. Jason Gillespie for Australia took 259 test wickets at an average of 26.13. That is 34 more wickets than Flintoff has taken thus far and Gillespie achieved this in 71 tests, 6 less tests than Flintoff has already played. Whilst Flintoff is a fine bowler and has plenty of heart and soul, I don't think we should be bestowing greatness upon him
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U14076603 overlooks the fact that Flintoff averages 31.71 with the bat as opposed to Gillespie's 18.73, a figure which is upped somewhat by his freakish (though superb) 201* highest score. If you divide their batting average by their bowling average, you find Gillespie on 0.72 and Flintoff on 0.99 - clearly the more desirable player team-wise.
Of course, you can make stats do pretty much whatever you want, but comparing Flintoff with Gillespie is about as meaningful as comparing Angus Fraser with, say, Trevor Bailey, or Monty Panesar with Ray Illingworth.............what's the point?
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Dr. who?
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with all due respect to the bbc and all other comentators but can you answer just one question,i believe it is the england and WALES cricket board so why does the bbc only fly the red cross when they play or more to the point when they win.if its a win then ENGLAND are great but what as happend to the WELSH players that helped you get there.
Its about time that the BBC and all others started giving credit where credit is due.
i love watching and suporting cricket and yes im also welsh and feel insulted by the fact that when we win its all england regardless that you are multi nation.
please give the sport the credit it deserves and stop this mentality and start suporting all the players in the team with the same recognition English or Welsh.
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England have never won the ashes, but England & WALES have
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I would love a response from the BBC on their biast atitude.
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Who are the ten greatest Test players in history?
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A difficult question to answer, but I doubt if Flintoff would even make the top thirty.
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"So he took 5-92 when Australia where chasing a massive 522 to win! Big deal! Hardly in the same league as Bob Willis' 8-43 in 1981."
so you're saying for praise to be given out, the performance has to be thet best of all time, else its not deserved? you were probably there in 81 going, well its good but not as good as when john smith got 9-2 in 1564.
who cares?
for starters that was over 30 years ago, sport has changed since then, and almost everyone agrees due to the fitness and training that players receive now, they are better than 99% of players who have gone before them, so this comparison is ridiculous. put flintoff in that game as he is now and see how he would have done? a ridiculous idea obviously but unless this happens whose to say he wouldnt have done this or better?
also i agree with what some ppl are saying he is an ALL ROUNDER not a bowler.
and his affect on the team cannot be mentioned enough, without him we would still be able to play yes, but i feel the spirit would not be the same, whose gonig to get the crowd going? especially without KP. bell? collingwood? i doubt it somehow.
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Some of the greatest test players in history...
Bradman
Hobbs
Hutton
Laker
Benaud
Bill Edrich
Tendulkar
Gavaskar
Muralitheran
Warne
McGrath
Botham
Imran Khan
Kapil Dev
Sobers
Gilchrist
Boycott
Gower
Marshall
Wasim Akram
Constantine
Walcott
Headley
Worrall
Viv Richards
Hadley
Waugh twins
Bedser twins
Ian Healey
Clive Lloyd
Kanhai
Andy Roberts
Holding
Holder
Courtney Walsh
Curtly Ambrose
...and many more I would put ahead of Flintoff. And that`s without even mentioning W.G.Grace.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
datatarathian
I think you protesteth too much. Does the fredster get you hot under the collar? 16 stone of pounding Northern muscle. Ooooh sir, does freddie light the fires of the love that must not be spoken.
You have been whining now for days clear off and start your own thread (or should that be "Fred") on 606 and take the other moaners with you. Meanwhile you can carry on "Shuffling your papers" in the hope that maybe one day freddy will respond to the unrequited.......
Thou art boring us to tears.
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Under the various rules regulating the qualification for an England (and Wales) team place, there have also been other players of diverse nationalities. From S.Africa, Zimbabwe, Ireland, Scotland, and probably others I can`t think of offhand. Can`t think of any Australians who have ever played for England, or vice-versa. Maybe someone knows. I understand that Stuart Law is now qualified to play for either country.
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The Aussies were quite keen to nick Andrew Symonds from under our noses. I am sure he is happy with the decision he made to be an Aussie. It would have been interesting to have had him in the side as it might have been a great spur to Freddie to have some serious competition.
Oh and to the chap who was comparing Flintoff with Gillespie, utterly ridiculous. By that token Botham was rubbish when compared to Gower and Trueman. Hadlee was viewed as an all rounder but his batting was 27.16 so was he rubbish obviously and don't start me on Viv Richards whose bowling was a lousy 61, pah not even worth the admission money.....
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To purpleangelgeorgina...
I suggest you re-read my posts. Nowhere have I denigrated Freddie. I have great admiration for him and his tenacity. I have questioned his "look at me I`m great" antics after taking a wicket. And I`m not like many on this board who would say he`s the best thing since sliced bread. He`s a man of the moment but not a god to be venerated. I agree with others above in that it was Swann and Anderson (not forgetting Onions) who set up the situation for Freddie to exploit. But they don`t seem to have been put on the same pedestal. Neither did they require continual off-field medical treatment to keep them going. I`m sorry if I bore you, but whether you agree with them or not I have as much right to announce my opinions as anyone else.
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datatarathian
Yes you have and you're tedious. If you object to Freddie's celebrations so much that it's spoilt your enjoyment of a Test match, what a desperately boring individual you must be.
Having said all that, you have come up with some gems:
"I can't remember Warne looking for god-like adoration"
"I'm a member of the public and I also worked for the press. I know exactly how [the English press and public] would react."
Marvellous. You are a man in the grip of such bitterness that he has typed a whole list of players he considers better on a blog in praise of one man's great performance. Just listen to what Warne, Gilchrist, Chappell etc say about Flintoff. And then try to work ut what they have that you don't.
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Oxfordfoxfan,
From your answer it seems to me that the bitterness and bias is coming from you. As I`ve already inferred I`ve nothing whatever against Freddie. Great cricketer, great bowler, great in the slips, and has been a great batsman. I just don`t treat him as a god, and there are others I put above him. As for your personal attack, would "to treat it with contempt" be the right phrase?
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'Treat with contempt' is fine, but rethink 'inferred'.
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Why change the word inferred? I hadn`t before said "I`ve nothing against Freddie" straight out, and neither have I, and I certainly haven`t attacked him or his prowess as a cricketer on a personal basis. On one post above I praised Flintoff`s recent 5th day Lord`s performance. I said it was magnificent, and it was. But it was also the other bowlers and the rest of the team who created the situation for him to exploit, and in no way did he win the match single-handedly.
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All factual, but the word you want is 'implied'. Inferring is what I'm doing from your implications. Not important, cheap linguistic shot really.
To be honest, the only thing I really have an issue with is that your beefs are pretty much stemming from within your own head. You've called England cheats for behaviour which is within the rules, you've said Flintoff has taken all the glory when he hasn't (although most of it has been handed to him), and you're arguing against the hypothesis that he's the greatest player of all time (which no-one has claimed).
What you have implied, whether intentionally or not, is that you think Flintoff is an egotist, party to cheating, and that he had as much or less impact on the game than the other bowlers. Since all of these things are either intangible or false, I'm inferring you have something against him. And why write 'Flintoff wouldn't hit the top 30' in answer to 'who are the greatest 10 test players in history?' unless it was personal?
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["To be honest, the only thing I really have an issue with is that your beefs are pretty much stemming from within your own head. You've called England cheats for behaviour which is within the rules,]
Not only from my head. I`ve heard concern from various quarters, including from Nasser Hussein regarding England`s dubious manipulations of the substitution rules. My main beef is with the way substitutes are sent on for every player who takes a break from the field of play. In most home tests especially with the England team, this happens on regular basis. It is of course up to the discretion of the umpire, but substitute fielders should only be allowed for players who have been injured or who become ill after the commencement of play. I counted at least seven English players in the Lord`s test who at one time or another went off the field of play, and were all allowed fielding substitutes. Excuse me for being cynical when considering that their breaks were all for being ill or injured.
-----------------------
From Law 2...
1. Substitutes and runners
(a) If the umpires are satisfied that a player has been injured or become ill after the nomination of the players, they shall allow that player to have
(i) a substitute acting instead of him in the field.
(ii) a runner when batting.
Any injury or illness that occurs at any time after the nomination of the players until the conclusion of the match shall be allowable, irrespective of whether play is in progress or not.
-----------------------------
This is the grey area of the laws that needs to be looked at. The fact that injuries to both Flintoff and Pieterson were carried into the match and not incurred in the current match, raises doubts that either of them should have been given substitute fielders.
["you've said Flintoff has taken all the glory when he hasn't"]
I said no such thing. You may not agree with my assessment, but what I said was "they [Warne and Flintoff] both enjoyed the limelight and the adulation. The difference, and the point I`m making, is that Warne (which I only used as one example), who had by far a better record than Flintoff, accepted it but did not chase it."
["(although most of it has been handed to him), and you're arguing against the hypothesis that he's the greatest player of all time (which no-one has claimed)."]
I`d love you to show me exactly where I`ve done that. ???
["What you have implied, whether intentionally or not, is that you think Flintoff is an egotist,"]
But he is. And so are most top sportsmen, although in varying degrees. Otherwise they most likely wouldn`t make it to the top.
["party to cheating,"]
Again I`ve said no such thing. Have you actually read what I`ve posted?
["and that he had as much or less impact on the game than the other bowlers.]
What I`ve IMPLIED is that it was a team effort. It was the team as a whole which should have been applauded, but Flintoff got the most credit, which was to my mind slightly over the top.
["Since all of these things are either intangible or false, I'm inferring you have something against him."]
Nothing against him at all. You`re making assumptions which have no justification.
["And why write 'Flintoff wouldn't hit the top 30' in answer to 'who are the greatest 10 test players in history?' unless it was personal?"]
It may have escaped your notice, but the thread is about Flintoff. It`s entitled "Flintoff - England's gladiator supreme". There are many other great players who wouldn`t (in my opinion) make the top thirty test players in history either.
Apart from the substitution rules I`ve said nothing against the performances of either England and Flintoff that hasn`t been also said by other posters on this thread. Perhaps you should attack those too. I wish you joy of it.
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My main beef, and I`ve heard similar concern from various quarters, including from Nasser Hussein, is regarding England`s dubious manipulations of the substitution rules and the way substitutes are sent on for every player who takes a break from the field of play. In most home tests especially with the England team, this happens on a regular basis. It is of course up to the discretion of the umpire, but substitute fielders should only be allowed for players who have been injured or who become ill after the nomination of players. I counted at least seven English players in the Lord`s test who at one time or another went off the field of play, and all were allowed fielding substitutes. Excuse me for being cynical when considering that their breaks were all for being ill or injured.
From Law 2...
1. Substitutes and runners
(a) If the umpires are satisfied that a player has been injured or become ill after the nomination of the players, they
shall allow that player to have
(i) a substitute acting instead of him in the field.
(ii) a runner when batting.
Any injury or illness that occurs at any time after the nomination of the players until the conclusion of the match
shall be allowable, irrespective of whether play is in progress or not.
This is the grey area of the laws that needs to be looked at. The fact that injuries to both Flintoff and Pieterson
were carried into the match and not incurred in the current match, raises doubts that either of them should have
been given substitute fielders.
["you've said Flintoff has taken all the glory when he hasn't"] --- I`ve said no such thing. You may not agree with my assessment, but what I said was "they [Warne and Flintoff] both enjoyed the limelight and the adulation. The difference, and the point I`m making, is that Warne (which I only used as one example), who had by far a better record than Flintoff, accepted it but did not chase it."
["(although most of it has been handed to him), and you're arguing against the hypothesis that he's the greatest
player of all time (which no-one has claimed)."] --- I`d love you to show me exactly where I`ve done that. ???
["What you have implied, whether intentionally or not, is that you think Flintoff is an egotist,"] --- But he is. And so are most top sportsmen, although in varying degrees. Otherwise they most likely wouldn`t make
it to the top.
["party to cheating,"] --- Again I`ve said no such thing. Have you actually read what I`ve posted?
["and that he had as much or less impact on the game than the other bowlers.] --- What I`ve IMPLIED is that it was a team effort. It was the team as a whole which should have been applauded, but Flintoff got the most credit, which was to my mind somewhat over the top.
["Since all of these things are either intangible or false, I'm inferring you have something against him."] --- Nothing against him at all. You`re making assumptions which have no justification.
["And why write 'Flintoff wouldn't hit the top 30' in answer to 'who are the greatest 10 test players in history?'
unless it was personal?"] --- It may have escaped your notice, but the thread is about Flintoff. It`s entitled "Flintoff - England's gladiator supreme". There are many other great players who wouldn`t (in my opinion) make the top thirty test players in history either. Apart from the substitution rules I`ve said nothing against the performances of either England and Flintoff that hasn`t been also said by other posters on this thread.
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Sorry about the repeated comments above. My fault. Bit of a glitch. The first post didn`t appear. I thought it was probably over length, so I altered it and posted again. Apologies.
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171. At 09:51am on 23 Jul 2009, datatarathian wrote:
Some of the greatest test players in history...
Bradman
Hobbs
Hutton
Laker
Benaud
Bill Edrich
Tendulkar
Gavaskar
Muralitheran
Warne
McGrath
Botham
Imran Khan
Kapil Dev
Sobers
Gilchrist
Boycott
Gower
Marshall
Wasim Akram
Constantine
Walcott
Headley
Worrell
Viv Richards
Hadley
Waugh twins
Bedser twins
Ian Healey
Clive Lloyd
Kanhai
Andy Roberts
Holding
Holder
Courtney Walsh
Curtly Ambrose
...and many more I would put ahead of Flintoff. And that`s without even mentioning W.G.Grace.
Those are great names and its always difficult to come up with a short list without missing some greats.
Off the top of my head Ill include in the above list:
Don Bradman, Brian Statham, Fred Truman, Dennis Lillee, Jeff Thomson, Lance Gibbs, Brian Lara and more.
Cheers.
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sgu06sab - your mathematical skills match your cricket knowledge. 1981 was "over 30 years ago" was it?
Oxfordfoxfan, you just go on swallowing the hype - but don't attack others for having the intelligence to think for themselves.
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Much acrimony here and it seems that our venerated team have a few things to take away from it all:
1. Freddie needs to pull his head in a bit because he embarrasses many Englishmen (and Welshmen?).
2. Substitution rules are abused by England and even old English captains are unhappy with this.
3. The Team needs more attention from the press rather than looking for a single hero where one hardly exists.
4. It doesn't pay to criticise your own team when they win because a win is perhaps too scarce and we must enjoy it more.
5. Just like the Aussies, we are very quick to deride the team when they lose and call then names, but equally quick to idolise them on their wins.
6. The press is fickle, like many bloggers. (How quick before i get listed in that lot, I wonder).
7. Freddy Flint-Off! is either a saint or a demon (he certainly cannot be just another normal man), but counting the For's and Against's, he scrapes into the bad side of that.... but that's just my opinion.
8. Opinions are like backsides; everyone has one and most are unclean!
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lol im sorry then, 28 years ago. if it annoys you that much you really have some issues, also that was the only thing you could find against my post then thank you, as i feel you must agree with me then.
and also, i used to play for essex youth team, so please don't knock my cricket skills :)
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or knowledge:P
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also, as an aside...people get far too worked up over this lol. we won :D
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