Lack of runs costs emotional Vaughan
Of all the resignation press conferences I have attended, Michael Vaughan's was easily the most emotional. Visibly moved throughout, he choked when thanking his family for the support he has received from them during his five years as England's captain. Towards the end, we were all willing him through it.
Not one journalist in the room had expected to be there today. The managing director of England Cricket, Hugh Morris, spoke of his surprise at Vaughan's decision although Vaughan revealed that he had been considering it since England's victory in Napier in March.
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It is a time-consuming and pressurised job, but it was the lack of runs that did for Vaughan in the end. Fiercely proud and professional, he simply could not stand the constant debate over the value of his place in the team any longer.
It might also have started to affect the dressing-room - players will support and comfort their out-of-form captain for a while, but then respect starts dangerously to erode. Vaughan decided to quit before that happened.
Also, there was an element of having little choice. Had England wanted to name five bowlers for the final Test, it would have been Vaughan who should have stepped aside. Had any other batsman been told do so for the sake of his captain, the integrity of the team's selection would have been called into question.
Had anyone suggested to me a couple of days ago that Kevin Pietersen would be captain at The Oval, I would have laughed out loud - and yet he is emerging as the most likely candidate from a depressingly short list. The man the South Africans call "Mr Ego" and who, only on Friday, was condemned by virtually everyone who has played this game at a serious level for his selfishness, appears to be the front runner from Andrew Strauss - who has not been in the one-day squad recently - and outsider Rob Key.
In his glowing tribute of Vaughan, Morris called him "a team player in every sense of the word." I do not think I could find anyone who could say that about KP. How would the captaincy affect his batting? Does he really need the burden? Or would the responsibility of the job concentrate his mind on his team and colleagues?
The last word goes to Vaughan. An Ashes-winning hero, Michael has been easily the most approachable, the most honest and the most interesting England captain to interview. He also owns the most beautiful extra cover drive in the world which I hope, after a break and a return to form at Yorkshire, we will see again very soon.
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well, hope the media are happy, and everyone else who has blindly jumped on the 'let's get vaughan out' bandwagon. I unfortunately have to include the TMS team in this who also seem to have fallen into the media-hyped ways that are now affecting crcket so badly.
I think time will tell and will show what a good captain and player vaughan is. ok, so he hasn't scored masses of runs for a few tests, but i'm amazed at the short-sighted nature of so many so called fans and pundits.
clearly the best captain England have had for decades - puts the team before himself (as most poignantly shown today) - can anyone seriously imagine pietersen doing the same?? If england do well under him, it will be more about glorifying himself than the team.
a sad day for english cricket.
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Vaughan has been fantastic for England as captain and he should be remembered as such. But it clearly affected his batting and was affecting England as a whole. To put England ahead of himself is a measure of the man and I applaud him for that. Same for Collingwood.
As for the next captain, Aggers has already touched on it. Does KP have the mentality and more importantly, the respect of the dressing room to lead? He certainly would be a breath of fresh air though.
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Depressingly short list is about right! How does Key even get a mention? An average of 31 and 15 tests doesn't exactly make him a certainty for the team nevermind the captaincy. My memory of his batting at the highest level is that of "rabbit trapped in headlights" Would it be unfair to point out that minus his one big innings he averages in the very low 20's? Perhaps it would on reflection but his is hardly a record that fills one with confidence!
I just can't see KP as captain material myself, at least not yet, that leaves Strauss...who has done well in the role before, but we are in danger of another MV situation if he can't find more consistency with the bat, and fast!
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Good column Aggers.
Vaughan's reign was one of the best in English cricket, the only time I have seen English cricket put up some fight and stand up to the likes of the bigger teams. Considering the other captains before him, Vaughan has been inspirational - but he also had a great team with him like Flintoff, Harmison, Hoggard, Jones, Trescothick.
The selection of the next captain is huge problem. I totally do not think KP is the person for the job, but unfortunately it does not look like any other person's place in the team can be taken for granted. It is quite a funny situation if you look at it. There are 11 people that need to be assembled for a game of cricket, but it looks like there is only one person who can find his name for sure in the team sheet for all three forms of the game.
I think KP is tempermental, agree with Agger's comment that he is not really the team man that we'd like him to be, I do not think he is a thinker of the game, and I also kind of think he is a sore loser. It is also very easy for opposition to mess with his head by sledging and talking.
It has been done before, for example, the appointments of Greame Smith, MS Dhoni - who did not have a lot of experience before they were elected captain. Atually KP has more than them. But they have been really astute captains.
We'll have to see how the next phase of English cricket progresses without Vaughan. I personally think England has taken a HUGE step back today.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Vaughan has done a fantastic job for his country - but with success comes expectation and the scrutiny of living under the microscope clearly got too much.
It's a sad state of affairs that the media attention is so intense nowadays that it inevitably has a negative affect on players who aren't performing at their peak. Any loss of form is so magnified by the media that it undermines players' confidence that much more - Harmison, Strauss, Collingwood and especially Vaughan have all suffered because of it. Vaughan has increasingly looked a shadow of the batsman he was 5 or 6 years ago, but let's hope that shedding the burden of the captaincy can help him find that form again.
I'm really concerned that Pietersen is not the right man for the job - both because of his lack of the right qualities to be a good captain, but also because he is our best player and we can ill afford to lose his ability to get the top order out of trouble - especially now that our batting is looking so frail. I only hope that if KP is given the job he doesn't suffer the same fate as Vaughan.
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Sad to see him go but only Vaughan could make that decision. Personally I think it would be disaster for England and KP if he was elevated to the captaincy now, Strauss or Key but perhaps Cook as a younger forward looking choice?
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It's a shame that Vaughan has had to go but lack of runs really undermined his ability to retain his place on merit.
His replacement? I hope that Andrew Flintoff is considered. By dropping down the order there is less pressure on his batting and there's little doubt he leads from the front with his bowling.
England might as well bite the bullet on a couple of other team weaknesses too
For the oval
Cook
Bell
Pieterson
Sales
Collingwood
Read
Broad
Flintoff
Anderson
Harmison
Panesar
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Sycophantic. Vaughan's position was completely untenable. His not going earlier arguably cost England this present series.
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Top quality captain who will be sadly missed, a great shame for the team. I think that the selection of KP for the role would be a big mistake - best player does not equal best captain (look how our beloved Freedie did). I feel it can only make his batting worse as more pressure is added, and I don't think he has the right type of character. I have always thought that Strauss would make a very good captain, and should be given a shot at the job. To bring in a player from outside the team to fill the role is madness. I really hope the right decision is made, as the wrong one would further destabalise the team and send us into spiral. Vaughans captaincy (forgetting his batting) was central to the team and needs very strong replacement
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Well done Michael Vaughan, for putting your team first. This courageous step will give England a valuable chance to try a potential Ashes winning captain against South Africa.
Nobody can deny MV did his best against SA but sadly he has been without his Ashes winning form and showing no signs of recovering it since his return from knee injury .
I am sad to see Collingwood quit, he has the best cricketing brain of the whole current set up but if in his heart he is sure he cant handle the job then we must respect his choice.
I would like to see Flintoff as captain again. He is one of very few men in the world to take any trophy away from Ricky Ponting, and the way that he inspired the team to beat Australia 3 times in a row in the one day game shows that he learned fast enough playing against Australia to beat them.
Australia surely doesnt want to come against Flintoff as captain next year, but I dont think they will worry, in fact they will be pleased if KP is the man, because his ego and lack captaincy experience will be his downfall.
Kent´s Key would also be a good choice, a very steady hand on the tiller even if he has limited experiece against the best international bowlers.
Andrew Strauss would also make a good captain, he clearly relished the task when entrusted before and his form improved with responsibility and control.
For my money KP is the worst choice from the 4 obvious ones, and as an England supporter not an Australian supporter, i want to see England led by a man that even Ricky Ponting knows will be a formidable challenger.
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Congratulations on a great career, Michael. There have obviously been times when we opposition supporters haven't agreed with your approach, but I guess that goes for all competitive captains - hence the attitude of many posters on here towards Smith.
I think you were a fine English captain who commanded respect around the world, and I think you will be missed more than most English fans expect.
I must add that I think the idea of KP as a captain is a joke. Not because he 'used' to be a Saffa, but due to his obvious personality flaws.
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It is indeed a sad day, but he has dealt with his resignation in the same way that he has always dealt with serious issues as the England Captain - with intelligence, dignity and honesty.
The significant two occasions when he became emotional in today's press conference was when he talked about his family. Firstly in describing his conversation with his father this morning and secondly when he talked of 'not being himself' at home with his family. For someone to say that in front of the very people who have contributed to that appalling situation took a lot of honesty and guts, and I for one applaud him for that.
Thanks Michael, and I hope that we see you back in the team as a batsman in form soon.
By Christ they need you.
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Well said, Aggers!!!
It's just a shame that it had to come to this. Michael Vaughan deserves enormous respect for the way he had led England for the last 5 years. Having come back from one career-threatening injury, he has shown determination and no little skill. He is also a charming and modest man, and I sincerely hope that glorious cover drive will be much in evidence next summer.
However, there are some in the media, including yourself Aggers, who need to look at this constant hounding of players - reporting on this player being dropped, or that player not being good enough. It has become more a feature over the last few years - probably because of blogs like this - but it doesn't help the situation. For example, Colly was said to be playing '... probably his last Test innings' on Friday. For heaven's sake the guy was brought back for this match!! Surely we don't want to go back to the old days of picking players for one Test at a time, then throwing them out to replace them with someone not ready for this level. Continuity has been the basis of England's success over the last few years - changes need to be made, but we don't need a total clear-out.
With regards to the new captain, I have said before in this blog that I feel the selectors should pick their best 11 - then choose a captain from there. The logical choice for the rest of the summer is Pietersen - the only possible candidate guaranteed his place in the side. As you rightly point out, the responsibility might be the making of him.
Sorry for the long post!!!
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As usual, English short-termist thinking has given rise to a big mistake. Why can't we take the longer view. Vaughan's batting would have come back if he were not under the sword of Damocles. It was more important to groom and develop a new leader of the same calibre rather than let one result cause a knee-jerk reaction.
I grieve for the immaturity and lack of wisdom that is so often desplayed by key decision-makers in our country - and that's not confined to cricket.
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Am I the only one who thinks that the Higher Ups have gladly let MV fall on his sword rather than take any personal responsibility for how the team has been performing of recent? MV is doing the right thing, but really, it should have happened before now, and it shouldn't have ultimately been his decision to make, otherwise what on earth is the point of having selectors, managers, coaches, et al?
As a side issue, Aggers, I was interested to see you say that MV was the most honest Cpt you've interviewed, since nearly every interview I read was the stock rotation of memorised cliche answers. Actually, I gained more respect for him when he made those comments about Pattinson's selection, and took a pop at you! At least it showed he wasn't a robot after all.
For all that I'm glad that he's stepped down, I hope he can get his head sorted, and that the time in County Cricket gets him back on track.
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What a sad weekend for English cricket. Michael vaughan has been an outstanding leader and with Duncan Fletcher formed the best team that we have had in the past 25 years.
I am sure if he hadn't had the weight of captaincy around his neck we would have seen the best of his batting skills more often than in recent times. I hope for one that he can get back to being the batsman he was, and go out of test cricket on a high note in a year or so's time.
KP for captain - I am not sure - he has the freedom to play instinctively as he does now which he wouldnt be allowed if he was captain - he would be half the players he is with the other responsibilities on his shoulders. But it seems that there is no one else - bar Strauss perhaps, but he would have to be in the one day side.
One other thing - why has no one queried Flowers role as batting coach? He has arguably the best 6 players in the country and has made them worse players if anything. And Moores seems to be getting off without criticism either?
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I'm glad that Vaughan has done the decent thing and gone now rather than wait to be sacked. The comparisons with Graeme Smith do him few favours. I have never believed that his powers of captaincy were sufficiently awe inspiring to allow him to be a passenger in the batting department. Judgement is of course clouded due to the events of 2005 but it should always be remembered that but for one poor umpiring decision we would have lost those Ashes and Vaughan would probably have been replaced the following year when injury ruled him out for so long.
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Pietersen has all the attributes required to be the best batsman in the world over the next decade. What he does not need is England's management making the same mistake they made with Flintoff in the Ashes series and selecting a captain on public popularity, image and cricketing ability.
Yes the new captain must have all three, but KP is a talent best left untouched. I am sure he wants the captaincy, and he may even deserve it, but every captain we've ever had has suffered in form whilst leading the country.
We cannot allow this to happen to Pietersen; he is too good a prospect to be burdened by the responsibilities of leadership in this way.
And if you disagree then consider some of the best - and most successful - players of recent times and ask yourself how many have captained their country (Warne, Murali) or been as successful whilst doing so as they were beforehand (Dravid, Inzamam, Tendulkar)...
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Michael Vaughan will be sorely missed. Whoever his replacement is they surely cannot match up to Vaughan's credentials. The Aussies must be over the moon. The names bandied about as his replacement lack one thing - man management which Vaughan has in abundance. A sorry day for English Cricket. Finally, what about the shambles in the background? Moores and his team have taken England backwards. They are full of contradictions such as different Captains for the different forms of the game suddenly now reversed. That together with playing a wicketkeeper totally out of his depth against a top Test Cricket team just because of consistency. If it was consistency they wanted they should have kept Vaughan. Surely Moores and his team should do the right thing and fall on their swords.
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Well done Vaughan, a very dignified and well timed resignation.
Hope he bats his way back into the team.
Let's get behind whoever takes over.
If KP takes that job, Aggers, give him a chance! He might be brilliant. Then it will be humble pie time for you and your trump card: "everyone who has played this game at a serious level".
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Making KP captain now could be the worst decision they ever make. He needs to learn the team came first, not what's good for KP.
Rob Key is a very clever skipper and he can't be worse than what we had.....time to be bold selectors........if they know what bold is
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Vaughan has been a great captain, and his place in history is secured. I agree that the constant speculation over his place can only have been damaging for him and the team, but how can such criticisms be avoided with so many sub-par innings in recent tests.
I have great respect for him for stepping aside with dignity as he has done, and hopefully he will regain form as a player.
With the remainder of the team as it is the only natural captain appears to be Pietersen i.e. in terms of consistent performances and un-droppability unless (by the same logic as Boris Johnson beacme mayor) Panesar is to be the next in line.
KP may not be the greatest team player, but maybe the captaincy will force him to be. He also must have some leadership abilities by all the times he's looked after Bell, and seemingly single-handedly revived Colly.
Whoever gets chosen - the very best of luck
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"It was the lack of runs that did for Vaughan in the end"
No it wasn't
It was ex-pro's like yourself and Atherton (Easily the worst England captain in 20 years) and many other, most of whom are nowhere near the level of cricketer he is now, nevermind at his peak, you don't have the right to critise people like Plunkett never mind Vaughan! The media pundits have been after his blood since the Ashes, the media love bringing people low and you've done it. So Aggers I hope your happy with a good years work!
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Michael Vaughan has been a great England captain, in fact the stats show he has been the most successful ever, leading England to 26 victories in 51 tests. He also has the accolade of having regained the ashes after so many years in 2005, backed up of course by the best performing England team in years.
However, the stats also show that he has scored over 50 in only 7 out of the last 31 innings ( 2 tons and 5 50s). This is not good enough of a batsman supposed to be 1 of the elite in English cricket.
As a batsman in recent times MV has not warranted a place, as have so many of his counterparts in the upper order. England are constantly 'held together' by 1, maybe 2 people performing well in recent times, and how often has it been 'heroic' efforts from the bowlers?
This is the difference between England and Australia, who must rightly be regarded as the benchmark of world cricket, as their team performs because 4 or 5 of their individuals perform regularly and consistently. Is it any surprise to see that they have 3 of the worlds top 10 ranked batsmen in their line up, and 4 of their top order average 50+ in tests?
The difference between the 2 sets of players? The Aussies are hungrier, more determined, stronger mentally - they believe 110% in their own and their collective ability. In short they just 'want it' more. Not to mention that they are technically better.
Jealous? Damn right I am. We have talent in the English game, it just gets stifled out by the mediocre County scene and its reliance on foreign imports.
Anyway, rant over, thanks MV for some good memories, and lets hope the powers that be have some 'balls' and make challenging changes to the team/squad in order that we may unearth some genuine potential for the future.
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What a dignified and humble resignation from Vaughan. Will Miller, Moores, Gibson and Flower step up to their responsibility and do the same?
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Sad but inevitable news. Even the great Brearley could only last so long as a non-batting, non-bowling captain. BTW I always wondered why Vaughan never rated his own bowling.
Looks like the KP bandwagon is already unstoppable and other posters have set out most the reasons why it shouldn't be him.
I am the only one who thinks that Bell is actually the sort of thinking cricketer who ought to make a good captain. I know, I know - serial under-achiever, but would he thrive on the extra responsibility or wilt? He's surely a better 'team choice' than The Ego?
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A sad day but an inevitable one. MV had no choice after being slated by all the press and his inability to score runs particularly in this series. However, I agree with another comment here that Moores and his team have got off lightly here. Should they not take some responsibility for the pathetic performance of the team in this current series? We have lost to a good side not a great one , a side we should have beaten. Unfortunately a side that had more determination than we did and a damn site better application. Too many England players left it to someone else to bail the team out!
I for one hope that MV scores shedloads of runs and comes back into the team at No.3 as he is one of the best when on form and the best to watch!
Good luck Michael and see you back in the Ashes!
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Good blog Aggers.
MV has been a great captain but he needs a rest and the team need a change. I cannot beleive we are going to pick KP, it will repeat the Flintoff error (is is just to sell more shirts!). Strauss did a great job 2 years ago and was very badly treated then, he really deserves the chance now. Collingwood will be a better player for standing down as well.
Personally I think fast bowlers should never be captain and neither should all-rounders, they have a enough to do.
For the next test I think Sidebottom needs a rest and Broad has just had one, so an obvoius swap and Shah should come in for Vaughn. As a Bears fan I would like Ambrose to have a longer run but understand that he needs to show more with the bat.
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Sorry to see Michael go, he was a smashing captain who unfortunately lost his form. Make KP captain and you will regret it, you don't pick a person to steer a ship who might be good at it if he gets to the wheelhouse. You pick someone with the proven ability or showing signs of having the ability to lead and guide.
KP had a good innings of 94 granted, but what was required was a lot more than that and he played selfishly and got out! Why did he not put the team and his adopted country first? Well because he is first and foremost for KP.
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Alistair Cook should be captain
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I agree with the sentiments of those saying that Vaughan's demise has been media-led. If this is how the media treats a guy who took England to their finest series victory in years, I shuder to think how they will treat a new inexperienced captain. That's the English media for you though.
Michael Vaughan right now is a better captain of England than Peter Moores is a good coach of England. The Moores regime has been one of indecision and inconsistencies, be it the on-off career of James Anderson as an opening bowler or the ludicrous situaiton over the wicketkeeper (who shall we have now?). Moores should have gone before Vaughan. Last summer people were prepared to give Moores some slack, to let him experiment and try to develop his plans. This season was his judgement season and he has shown to be lacking.
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New England captain? How about the man guiding the team at the top of the County Championship, which is meant to be the breeding ground for Test cricketers?
So that would be Chris Read then. Can't see the selectors going for that one, even though that would kill two selectorial birds with one selectorial stone.
Please not KP. It could ruin him and ruin us. Only Cook, Flintoff and Pietersen are sure of their places in the team. KP would be a mistake, Freddie doesn't want or need it, so that only leaves Cook. Not exactly spoilt for choice are we?
I think it has to be Strauss for now. Typically, we are not going to appreciate Michael Vaughan properly until we have had to live without him for a while.
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English International cricket is in imminent danger of collapse if the whole set up is not reviewed at this opportunity.
Do we have the right coach? - I doubt it.
The current selection debacle for the previous test beggared belief and those responsible should go.
There is a paucity of choice for captain - Strauss or Key. How about Cook for the future? Certainly not Pietersen.
Just for once can we think out of the box and lay proper modern thinking foundations for the future.
It is a true saying - you are only as good as your last game.
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Looking through the career photos was very revealing. Apart from a fluky win over OZ and SA overseas once, who did he beat? Bangladesh, West Indies and NZ- three of the weakest and worst 'Test' sides in history. Nuff said.
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Never wanted Moores in the First place, l always wanted Moody as he was a proper cricketer who had won something!
Moores has to go full stop!
Anderson is not a test cricketer full stop!
Dont play bowlers who are unfit full stop!
Get a grip of the situation before we loose 5-0 next summer!
And get summer test cricket away from sky and back on normal Tv for Everyone to watch and get into,...fullstop!
Well done MV, you were great, come back and show what a great batsmen you are!
And finally Aggers, what a poor corrrespondent you are!
How can you pass judgement on so many who play when you were such a poor cricketer yourself, god only knows how (1) You ever played cricket (2) How you ever played test cricket and (3) How the BBC thought it would be good to give you the top job on BBC cricket when you know jack though you think you know more than Jack even though you dont!
We shall overcome!.....if the BBC dont delete us all!
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Imagine you're an England cricketer in a tough series, whilst being coached/managed/captained by the dream team of KP and Moores.
hahahahaha - talk about the lunatics in charge of the asylum.
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Vaughan has been an excellent captain whose time has unfortunately run out.
Perhaps now is the time to finish with this
pallsy "Club Egland" by eliminating this somewhat childish habit of abbreviating surnames and sticking a "y" on the end.
Maybe we should have a captain of some stature (whose name already ends with a "y") i.e. KEY.
Unfortunately, some of us of a certain age will always associate KP with peanuts and not an England cricket captain.
Come what may, I shall be looking forward to the upcoming game at the Oval and giving England my utmost support.
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Hear , hear get cricket back on the BBC where it belongs!!
That's why we pay our Licence Fee!
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100notoutatnumber11
Calm down mate. Aggers has surely played at higher level than you. Maybe you should apply for his job and give us your insights.
Oh, and by the way he's right.
As for your Full Stop points, how old are you. You'll be writing fact after everting you type in your next post.
Get over yourself you plonker.
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Oh for Vaughan to rediscover his form from down under all those years ago. He's been a great skipper, but the team has unravelled this season and needs a new regime to bring them into line so they're fighting for each other with single purpose again.
We have to face facts - there are no suitable candidates around the current squad to replace him as captain. So how about an imaginative selection from left field, or at least behind the stumps?
Chris Read is still the best keeper in the country. He's actually also proved himself the best batsman of the decent keepers many a time. Ambrose has been hopeless behind the stumps and with the bat. Read is county captain (of the league leaders) of Sidebottom, Broad and even Pattison, so he has good knowledge of the team's bowlers and how to use them to best effect.
He's never had the chance he's deserved. Miller would do an awful lot worse than to offer it to him now.
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I'm pretty gutted to hear him leave as this is probably the end of him for England. How anybody can question him as a captain amazes me. His runs dried up, but if Collingwood can knock his way into form surely Vaughan could have done . Theres no reason why he can't produce some of his earlier form as a top quality batsman and Vaughan on his day would get into any top 4. He would certainly be in my team to bash the Aussies around the grounds next summer. KP for me isn't the team player like Vaughan, he'd much rather be paid millions to go smashing sixes in India than lead England out against the Aussies. I couldn't call the captaincy i just pray that Flintoff's name doesn't pop up.
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It's pretty much certain now that Pietersen will be given the role, however I feel that Ian Bell would have been an excellent choice to skipper England. I think KP can have a lot of success in the job, so long as it does not begin to affect his batting performances.
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Why did it take Mr Agnew by surprise that Vaughan would walk away today? In many senses it was the obvious thing to do, and Vaughan’s words and demeanour when interviewed post-match last night suggested it was a distinct possibility. The series is lost, let a new man the helm and give the team a fresh start. Vaughan’s batting, as Mr Agnew himself has pointed out time and time again, is well short of Test standard. (For what it’s worth, so is Collingwood’s, and despite his admirable hundred, he is fundamentally not good enough and needs to make way as part of this new beginning).
Further, Mr Agnew’s reflections on Kevin Pietersen show a lack of insight. If he were a better judge of character, he would have noticed that Kevin Pietersen is not at all ‘selfish’. In fact he clearly takes great pleasure in the success of others, and is well liked by his team mates. This is a good start for a captain. Moreover, he is one of the only people – taking into account both ability and fitness – whose place in the team is not up for discussion. He probably ought to have exercised better judgement when on 94 last Friday, but as has been pointed out many times, his extravagant strokeplay and self-belief are what make him the player he is. That being said, the captaincy, which I predict will certainly go his way, may help to round out his character a little.
Perhaps, Mr Agnew, it’s you who needs to consider your position. Often it seems you are just making things up as you go along.
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well done to all who jumped on the sack vaughan bandwagon,there goes the ashes.rickie ponting will be sitting in his mansion rubbing his hands.id like to congratulate mv for been best english captain in living memory.record stands up for itself.a gentleman.lets hope he gets form back playing for yorkshire and gets back in test team soon as.theyl need him.no more team england,bring on team kp.not
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#41: How about Pattinson now for captain?
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Here we are within a year of the next Ashes series, and we have been depriived of the second finest captain England has had since 1970 - Mike Brearley being the finest - and Why???
It is simply because the BBC Correspondant and other journalists could not think of anything better to talk about - personally I would like to see Jonathon Agnew tend his resignation too - he is inane in the extreme, and clearly knows nothing about cricket - his suggestion of Pieterson as next captain illustrates this.... Find me one Australian Journalist who thought that Shane Warne should captain Australia????
However Mr Agnew has done nothing but put pressure on the English Captain, for his personal lack of runs, despite his masterful captaincy in the field, and his clearly motivational talks before each session.
In Michael Vaughn, England had a captain who could see the big picture, and who stared down the barrel of a gun in the Ashes in 2005, and faced it, and won.
In Jonathon Agnew, the BBC employ a journalist who's lack of imagination and passion for the game forces him into sensationalist tabloidesq headlines, and undermining the finest talent in English Cricket for quite some time.
Mr Agnew, your time is up. Please resign.
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A further point:
A modern cricket team needs to be about a squad, not simply a team of eleven players. This is particularly so for the bowlers. Flintoff, Broad, S. Jones, S. Harmison, Sidebottom, Anderson, Panesar and Adil Rashid should be part of a bowling squad that rotates according to conditions and fitness. We should then think in terms of one or two of these bowlers being rested, not dropped.
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#44
Why is there all this bile towards Aggers? Do you claim you saw this coming today? Do you have the lottery numbers as well?
KP is a selfish half wit. He is also South African. That's why he souldn't be made England captain, amongst a whole host of other reasons.
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Of course it was the lack of runs that did it. He said as much himself. How could England continue to have a player in that position scoring runs that wouldn't flatter a number 10 or 11.
Continuity is one thing but carrying passengers like him is another. Sorry to say that as he still looks good when playing well and has served us proud in the past but he seems past it now. I would love to be proved wrong though as it would be great to see a rejuvinated Vaughan back for the ashes.
His resignation will allow England to select 5 bowlers, including Broad who is starting to look like a very talented all-rounder, as Flintoff is once again showing he can be. This in turn allows Ambrose to come in at a less pressured number 8.
I'd pick Straus as captain of the test team. Maybe KP for the shorter forms where his natural aggression would be more appropriate.
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MV has shown his moral stature - a few million miles higher than that of media commentators who've done their best to trash him in recent weeks - and yet again, as with the one-day captaincy issue, he stole a march on them too! Hats off to him for that (amongst myriad other things). And nul points to the toxic media who should be brought to book in the same way as they bring our players to book every time they have the temerity to venture out on a field.
I thought it was most interesting that Oliver Brett comments in another part of this site that KP is the marketing men's choice. So, we now run the England cricket team based on marketing men's requirements ?
KP has no qualifications whatsoever to be captain of team: plus he is utterly selfish. How can he possibly shoulder the burden of captaincy whilst being obsessed with being the best batsman in the world? Batsmen tend to decline when they become captain of the team (not just MPV, but also Ganguly - Ponting is a total exception).
Come back Vaughany when you're back to your best - those supremely elegant cover drives are a joyous memory to me...........
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Personally I think MV has been very brave, and he knew it was time, much like Hussain before him
Perhaps its time for the selectors to be brave as well. Personally I think if KP wants the job the selectors will give it to him to save upsetting him
Personally I would bring Rob Key back as an opener for Strauss who looks a shadow of the player he was and bring David Sales who's had a great season into the squad. Bring Prior back so we can play 5 bowlers. Prior, Broad and Flintoff should all be able to contribute so as long term we can go back to 5 bowlers as move into the Ashes
My Oval XI
Cook
Key
Bell
KP (c)
Collingwood
Prior (wk)
Broad
Flintoff
Anderson
Harmison/Jones
Monty
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Agreed mediamofo, Pattinson is the obvious candidate. Not only has he been performing well at county level, but he is well respected in the dressing room and has solid first hand knowledge of the old enemy. With his accent, he may even come in handy during sledging practice. "Come on Belly mate, that all you got?"
Finally, those tiling skills mean he has something to fall back on when the media turn on him and his picture would look good in the Longroom.
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Firstly, well done Vaughany for a fabulous run as captain, and also for quitting now in order to give your successor a chance to start with a dead rubber. All good things must come to end, etc etc. And it was time to go.
Secondly, PLEASE do note make Pietersen captain. How can he possibly be regarded as good captaincy material? Strauss is the obvious choice. He has a 100% winning record as test captain for starters, and the responsibility will very likely help his batting back to its previous excellent form. He should have captained England on the last Ashes tour (probably pleased he didn't have to mind you!). And why make such a fuss about having the same captain for both forms of the game? They are completely different disciplines. Pick Pietersen for one day captain if you must. Pick anyone. I don't care. But don't let him captain the test side - a role which takes guile and subtlety. I haven't noticed much of either about Mr Pietersen.
If the selectors pick KP I shall hire a JCB, drive to St John's Wood and DIG UP Lord's.
That'll learn 'em.
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So I'm the only one who thinks Pietersen could make a really good fist of being captain, I see?
People said exactly the same of Nasser Hussain, that he was too self-absorbed, too selfish and not sensitive enough to the needs of other players to be England captain and he was an even better captain than Vaughan when you consider what he had to work with in terms of players compared to Vaughan.
The truth is that when anyone becomes captain they have to change and adapt to the role regardless of their personality before.
Pietersen is clever enough to do this and is a smart cricketer. He adapts to bowlers and situations better than any other England player, which bodes well for the tactical skills needed as captain and has a really fierce desire.
The only argument I can see against him becoming captain in the lack of any real alternatives who are worth their place in both forms of the game (Ian Bell is the only other England player I would say has this status for definite aside from Flintoff) is that it would affect his batting. I think that in his case the extra responsibility might take the rough edges off it and make him even better.
Let's face it, he will be chosen so maybe it is best to support him. He will need time, but so did Vaughan.
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I find it rather odd, that Collingwood has also stepped down. Especially since Moores was only quoted a while back as to saying that the 1day and test captain should be 1 and the same.
I think that Vaughan made his own decision but just how much of a decision was it from Collingwood???
I sence that there is something else happening in the background without us knowing.
If they make KP captain of both side then i can only forsee dark clouds ahead for the English cricket team.
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#49
Revisit the immediate post-match interview Vaughan gave and you will see many reasons to predict his imminent resignation, which I did in fact, as if it matters!
Your remarks about KP’s intelligence and nationality are both silly and incorrect.
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I personally would like to see Strauss given the job, he looked good in the role previously and would have the respect of the dressing room. KP doesn't need the hassle of the job, he's already getting criticism and he's not even captain!! No other country in the world would hammer their best batsman the way we do.
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Agnew was so much a part of the media bandwagon on Vaughan's case the whole time. Well now that Pietersen is being touted he has positive things to say about Vaughan and has already stazrted attacking Pietersen who is despite what people say a team man.
If only Agnew could stand down
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Sad to see Michael Vaughan leaving before the end of a series where England have failed to perform and seem to be carreering on the downward slope that followed the 05 Ashes victory.
People who blame "the media" should listen to the reasons MV gave himself - he feels physically good but isn't up to the pressures of the job mentally. Surely the pressures have more to do with working out how to get Smith and Mackenzie out and how to defend the meagre totals England's top-order batsmen have been making with bowling attack that isn't up to the task that what he's going to read in the next day's papers.
MV has been the best England captain I've seen in my time watching cricket (including Brearley) even though Hussain and Athers were a hard act to follow (but whose job was arguably harder pre central contracts and Team England).
I hope MV looks back on his stupendous achievements with satisfaction and am sure we'll see him back in the team in the near future - no England player is better to watch when he's on form.
Coming at the same time as Collingwood's resignation as one-day captain, this doesn't put the England management in a great light and makes it seem all the more ridiculous that Fletcher had to leave under a cloud. He would never have lumbered his captain with a bowling attack he didn't trust (as Vaughan has at Headingley). And would he have tolerated a situation where two of England's senior players suddenly find themselves so weary of the year-round treadmill of international cricket that they can't cope.
Perversely, MV's resignation may help England - for me the big weakness of the team is the lack of runs in the upper order. If he gets back in form I hope to see him opening with Cook or coming in at 3.
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I remember reading an article in The Times a few months ago - I don't remember who wrote it - which spoke about how coaches have a 'shelf life' and, of course, at the time the reference was to Duncan Fletcher. I feel the same could be said for Michael Vaughan who, despite being a brilliant captain, gradually found that it took too much of his time and energy and his batting suffered exponetially. His tenure as captain was surely nearing its natural end anyway (barring some miraculous return to form) and it is good that he took the time to make a decision the selectors should have made a long time ago.
This is not to disparage him of course; as Aggers said, he has some beautiful shots at his disposal and we all know how good a captain he is, but really I think he was at the end of his shelf life as captain, but I wouldn't mind seeing him back as a batsman some day without the extra burden; how useful would that be in the Ashes?
As for the successor KP is indeed the only obvious choice and yes he is brash and arrogant but to be honest his last innings was the only time I've really seen him be selfish and even then I don't think he deserved the criticism he got (particularly from Mr Boycott who was probably one of the most selfish batsmen of his era) and I do think he could be inspirational. He has a unique style laced with aggression so let's give it a chance. England, after all, play at their best when they are aggressive.
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#57
Why is it silly to say that KP isn't the sharpest tool in the box. His shot on 94 proved what a lame brain he is, (and that isn't the first time he's done something as stupid as that.) England had SA just where they wanted them and he threw it away. (Collingwood was equally stupid but got away with it.) That doesn't mean he isn't a top player.
Oh, and he is South African. That's not silly it's just a fact.
I'm all for KP getting the job, but will you back here in 18 months when the Ashes have been lost again and KP has played some arrogant and thoughtless shots, saying he should go?
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What a disaster. I thought we were starting to look a reasonable side again with Flintoff back.
Apart from being a great captain and easily the best we have available, I would have thought Vaughan might have tried batting at no.6 to recover form before resigning.
I also think people underestimate what a good side SA are. It may be that they are now even better than Oz. Losing wasn't that bad if Flintoff is now fit and Harmison can produce some consistency. However, the real problems could start now if we name Pieterson as captain. It reeks of the same stupidity as when Flintoff was named. Great player does not equal great captain. I'd go for Strauss .
Ironic that if Pieterson had not given it away on 94 we might not be having this discussion.
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Vaughan had to go but a mercenary Saffer to captain England ? No thanks.
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Mike Atherton has commented as follows:"If you're talking about someone to take on both jobs then Kevin Pietersen becomes the number one candidate" as he is "one of the few people who can be guaranteed their place in both teams." It is a fairly sad indictment on the state of English cricket that this is a reason for appointing the next captain. The cupboard of talent is clearly bare. Appointing someone as selfish and egotistical (however talented he may be) cannot be the right step to take. KP needs to prove he can put the interests of his team and country before himself before he is handed the honour of captaining England.
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I found Vaughan's emotional response today more moving than I thought I would. It was probably also to be expected - these guys have to put on a front that they don't read or care about the press, but I'm sure they bottle it up and then it gets to them at moments like this.
Let's face it as well - it's the selectors who should carry the can. If you're picked to play for your country - which Vaughan very much wanted to, unlike Mr Harmihomesick - you take the opportunity. All through his injury recovery, the thought of getting back into the international arena must have motivated Vaughan. But he wasn't ready and the selectors have to take the blame for that. He should have been told to go and make bucket-loads of runs for his county, then we might have seen the Vaughan of old, who was a class batsman, and put the Aussie's to the sword on their own turf. Good luck to him and I hope we see him back and in form - a great sight.
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I know this post is going to be ripped apart as every one is emotional all of a sudden. BUT vaughan has stayed in too long and is not the marvel evryone is now making him out to be. Stop blaming aggers too.
Evrryone knows that the reason england have been woeful is the BATTING. Yes I know that recent blogs have gone on about england bowlers being able to take 20 wickets but as all players (bowlers) will know it is very difficult to take any wickets (easily) when the batsmen have struuggled to post 150 on the board. This leads to defensive field placings hence less chance of wickets. look back at the edges to 3rd slip running down to the boundary etc.
SO why was the batting weak? enter MV. being a good captain depends on the players around you as much as tactical nounce. with a waqar and wasim in the side, or a dravid, tendulkar etc you can afford to be tactically unaware without too much damage. If the players around you are not up to scratch then your performance becomes the key. a la Lara, Inzamam to a degree, Fleming etc. Vaughan did not and was not up to scratch. His presence in the team as a batsman was making the team suffer.
Give the captaincy to cook or broad and build the squad around them. It did wonders for smith and dhoni. KP as captain would be a joke I think he has been a destabilising factor in team england. and the likes of bell have suffered a la ramprakash whos woeful test averages wee due to being moved up and down the order like a yo yo to acomodate others.
You see people it is not as imple as holding the bat and hitting the ball.
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#67
I agree that, batting wise, MVP should have gone long ago. But from all the comment going on you can see that who replaces him as captain is a tough one to call. I don't see an outstanding candidate. If there had been one he would have gone long ago.
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Kapil my old mate, take my Full Stop and Stick it somewhere in the area not far from the thigh pad, Box and jockstrap!
Dont sit on your high horse looking down at my comments, make some of your own you muppet!
As for Aggers, lm old enougth to have seen him play, full stop!!!!!!
Anway, having had him moan all the way through TMS about noise from the crowd or Kp's shot or whatever else took his boat in the match, (licence fee money waste) l would have been far better off having Sky's Lancashire mafia blarting away in my ears the whole 4 days, who despite many annoying traits at least played more games at a higher level, (or coached) and might have some more useful insight than the Beebs correspondent who know one cares for anymore, at least MV put him in his place the other day, whatever may have happened since!
And as l have a family member in the coaching setup of Team England, l may have more insight than most, despite my age,......whatever age you think l am, and what ever educational background you think l may have had......most likely a lot more extensive than yours, along with my cricket skills!
So next time you want to show me your supreme intellect, try something original, something a bit out there, like KP for captain or kapil to retire from making dumb responses! Just a thought!
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As an SA supporter with less of an emotional stake in this, I would suggest Cook. He may be young, but already has a solid record and seems to have a good head on his shoulders. And he has more experience than Smith had when he was given the SA captaincy.
Stick with him, give him time, and just perhaps in 5 years time you'll have an hardened, experienced captain with the best years of his career still ahead of him... like we have with Smith now. Stop-gap options and quick fixes usually don't work out in the longer term.
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100notoutatnumber11..
how many caps have you had for england, that you pass judgment on who is and isn't a test cricketer?
Pots and kettles, I think...
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The madness of picking Darren Pattinson fatally undermined Vaughn. He has not scored enough runs but the left field pick, the clear strains this caused in the relationships with the selectors, and going one down led to this. I am bemused by the arguments that it is a bit cozy, but with central contracts they should if performing be the first players written down. Picking Hoggard, or Harmison, or Jones or actually Tremlett who was there surely would have been preferable. However looking again at going with four bowlers and Sidebottom being an injury risk, and being carried really. With four fit bowlers could have won, be one each... but no. Vaughn has been scapegoated here. I can understand why he has done what he has done, and would be baffled at why anyone would want the job until Geoff Miller either apologises for selecting Pattinson, or resigns before the Oval test on Thursday.
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vaughan is a class act - an inspirational captain and easily the most attractive player when he's at the top of his game.
the rare display of emotion today shows just how much he gave to the role - let's hope the break allows him to return to form, and regain the peace of mind he deserves.
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100notoutatnumber11
#69
Oh dear we do seem to have rocked your boat.
Does having played 100 tests make you a better commentator the someone who played 3. No FULL STOP.
As for the rest of your bile towards anyone who disagrees with you well you sound just like of viewer Sky aspire to having. I'll send you a cheque for your subscription if you need it.
However, the fact you have a family member in the coaching set up expalins why you come across as an arrogant pompus prat. And you can stick that where you like. (Oh and the coaching isn't up to scratch as you can see from the England performances. Can you please pass that insight on to whoever it may be.)
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Let's give it to Monty, just for this 1 test at least! Could you imagine his field settings! Only joking, but it is a nightmare deciding this because it needs to be right for next summer when our old friends come and visit us again. Vaughan was a great captain but that press conference today showed what a genuinely top person he is as well, but I think most people already knew that. A real shame but hey, the team will move on. Go Monty!
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Did Peter Moores ever make 100 not out?
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#62
Pietersen’s mother is English, hence he is entitled to a British passport and having spent four years playing in England he is entitled to play for the national side. Are you suggesting there should be a distinction within the team between the ‘pukka English’ and the ‘almost English-but-not-quite’, with only the pukka ones allowed to be captain? Nasser Hussain was born in Madras and both Allan Lamb and Tony Greig captained England, the latter very effectively. Britain is a country with ongoing issues about culture and racial diversity. But, speaking specifically of England, the admirably open selection policy of the ECB and the tolerant attitude of the vast majority of English cricket fans is one sign of progress. That’s why I think your nationality point is silly, and frankly unwelcome.
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100notoutatnumber11 and Kapil_devil;
Calm down guys, everyone is entiteled to their own opinion. You both have made valid points so just relax.
Remember peace love and harmony and all that.
My views are that KP should not be made captain as it may have a negative affect on his batting. England need KP just the way he is, arrogance and all.
I think England need to look to the future and i think that will be Bell, maybe too soon but i think would be very good.
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MV's resignation as captain is a disaster for England. The idea of KP as his likely successor drives one to despair - what on earth qualifies him for the job? Flintoff's performance in the last Ashes series, along with his unfortunate character defects, rules him out. Andrew Strauss is barely worth his place in the side, and regards being present at the birth of his kids as more important than his role with England. Robert Key is the only viable candidate, which, given the selectors' recent record, means he has less chance than than Darren Pattinson of landing the job.
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#77
How many other countries would pick a Captain that wasn't born in that country? None of the serious cricketing nations would do it. KP is as South African as Graeme Smith whether his mum is English, or an Eskimo.
He came to England because he couldn't get in a state side in SA, (the reasons he couldn't get in are an aside.) He would have played for SA otherwise. He didn't buckle down and prove how good he was. He walked away and played for another country. Real captain material.
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I'd say make Ambrose the captain for the last test. Coz he aint doing anything else on the field, and he is near to the action since he is wk, so he can as well be the captain. HAHA
BTW, who is this Sales someone was talking about to include in the side. It was very funny reading that.
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If, as I would advocate but I can't see the blazered buffers of the ECB falling for it, we adopt the Australian method of selecting the team and from that team selecting the captain, then it is likely that KP would get the job. And maybe he would grow into it. Remember, Ricky Ponting was at one time persona non grata because of his off-the-field shenanigans. Look at how he has grown into the captaincy of the best team in the world. I know nothing about KP's off-the-field habits, but I suspect he will either make a great captain or, like Beefy Botham back in 1981, be relieved of the captaincy and like dear old Beefy back then under Brearley's captaincy, will win next year's Ashes virtually single-handedly under Vaughan's captaincy. Now, wouldn't that be nice!
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I applaud Michael Vaughan on his resignation, it was a dignified end to an excellent stint as captain. I have to say that I've called into question his ability with the bat and therefore his place in the team as much of the media have, but that is to be expected in this day and age. He had a lot longer to get through his 'rough trot' than many before him. As for KP for captain, no I don't think it's a good idea. I'd be happy with Flintoff for the Oval, or even Collingwood who responded to huge amounts of pressure positively at Edgbaston, but then sit and think long-term after the series.
As for the Oval team;
Cook
Strauss
Bell
Pietersen
Collingwood
Flintoff
Broad
Ambrose/Read
Sidebottom
Jones/Anderson
Panesar/Rashid
I'd be tempted to rest Sidebottom instead of Anderson but it would be harsh after the year and a half he's had. It's time Jones had another go though. Panesar hasn't impressed me much recently, Swann could replace his as spinner and potentially add some useful runs, but Rashid is looking to the future.
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I was fortunate enough to see Rob Key bat at Perth in 2002 and he was the only Englishman to apply himself in what was a lost cause.
I also saw him treated abysmally by his Captain, Nasser Hussain at Sydney for a fielding error. This treatment was totally uncalled for and showed that Nasser did not want Key in his squad.
He has shown resolve and dignity in his bid to regain a Test place and should in my view, be returned to the squad if not the captaincy.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
red_reason wrote:
'I know this post is going to be ripped apart as every one is emotional all of a sudden. BUT vaughan has stayed in too long and is not the marvel evryone is now making him out to be. Stop blaming aggers too.
Evrryone knows that the reason england have been woeful is the BATTING. Yes I know that recent blogs have gone on about england bowlers being able to take 20 wickets but as all players (bowlers) will know it is very difficult to take any wickets (easily) when the batsmen have struuggled to post 150 on the board. This leads to defensive field placings hence less chance of wickets. look back at the edges to 3rd slip running down to the boundary etc.'
well actually we got around 600 at lords and could not bowl them out.
the bowlers are the problem and have affected the batting.
bring back harmy, hoggard and jones for the Oval
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#80
You ask: "How many other countries would pick a Captain that wasn't born in that country?"
So you ARE saying there is a distinction to be drawn between different types of English cricketers! Maybe Monty should be demoted to drinks boy - after all, he's not really English is he? Look, I'm just kidding, but I do think there is a serious point here.
What other countries do is up to them. Personally I feel quite proud that England is willing to appoint non-English born men to what remains very ‘establishment’ job. Long may it continue, and I’m sure it will in the form of One Mr KP.
I think he may surprise a lot of people by being an outstanding captain.
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Michael Vaughan showed tremendous courage and selflessness to stand down today. It is the mark of a great, sporting leader to be a team player and realise when his time is up. There is no doubt that this is the right decision, though a difficult one. Additionally Vaughan goes down as a truly great captain, who will always be remembered for his Ashes winning series in 2005 and rightly so.
He does however pose a serious question as to his successor. I believe KP will be a good captain if he gets the job, but the next year will be a massive learning curve for him. Firstly he will need to remember at times that he his part of a team and he will be required to lead from the front and show the kind of selflessness that Vaughan has done. Secondly he will need to ensure that the pressure of captaincy does not hinder his own performances. Despite the lessons that KP must learn, I believe that his attitude, ego and raw talent will filter down into the team and give England the outward confidence that we require if we are to challenge Australia next year.
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It's very sad indeed to see MV go - though paradoxically it will give him the change to recharge his batteries.
I'd give the job to Cooke - young, intelligent, low key....good people person .... and humble enough to take advice from senior players - one of whom will be Vaughan in due course I am sure - almost certainly for the Ashes.
I'd pick the following team for the last test
Cooke (c)
Strauss
Bell
Pieterson
Collingwood
Flintoff
Broad
Ambrose
Harminson
Jones
Paneasr/Rashid
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Beats me how KP is the solution as put forward by Atherton and others, just because he is in both sides. Well we had two captains who both resigned at the same time, or perhaps Athers isn't aware of that.
While plenty harp on about Vaughan's captaincy, maybe he and the selectors are equally to blame for England being in the state they are. A win or two around 2004/5 and we're world beaters, except we're not. We beat the easy pickings and fail when the big boys turn up.
Vaughan isn't by any stretch near the best captain England has ever had, for the media to come out with that just makes me laugh. 15 Tests against Windies and Bangladesh, 15 wins. I bet Botham, Gooch, Gatting, Atherton, Gower, Hussain and Stewart wish they could have played Tests against a Windies side as weak as the current lot. Vaughan's failure to win a single Test against India, Pakistan or Sri Lanka sums up nicely why calling Vaughan the best England captain ever is a joke.
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# 90 - you are spot on!
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(about Vaughan's captaincy)
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Being realistic, I like to think that not only will Michael Vaughan find form and begin to truly enjoy playing cricket once again, and force his way back into the team as a top batsman, but I like to think he will captain England again. It was madness letting him resign, because he was simply brilliant, and the alternatives are very unrealistic.
From the current squad, I'd like to see Cook become captain, though do feel it is too early for him (another very dumb reason for losing Vaughan.)
My team--not too many changes as that could be too much of a risk--
Trescothick (c)
Cook (vc)
Bell
KP
Shah
Prior (wk)
Flintoff
Broad
Jones
Harmison/Anderson
Monty
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the anti-Vaughan brigade (no 90 etc) do present such immature analysis ......sure he beat some rubbish teams .... but he did manage to do something that quite a few on no 90's list didn't .... and that was winning the Ashes.
And those who say his 'batting just wasn't up to test standard'..... he had a series in Australia once that none of us will ever forget......
The guy was a good captain ... and a good batter .... probably not the best England has ever had in either department .... but a long, long, long way form being the worst ..... and certainly a level or seventeen better than those who were calling for his removal or who are trumpeting his demise today..
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#79 " Andrew Strauss.....regards being present at the birth of his kids as more important than his role with England"
As, so I recall, did the departed Mr Vaughan.
Let's not forget, Vaughan hasn't just lost this series as captain - he's lost THREE in the past year, two of them at home.
We're now stuck in the second tier of Test cricket, way behind not only the Aussies, but SA, SL and India too. Vaughan, like others, has lived off the glories of 2005 for far too long. He's made the right decision to step down from the captaincy. Whether he can regain a place in the side is something only time will tell.
There isn't a horde of contenders queueing up to replace him as skipper, but Strauss has done reasonably well in the job before, and deserves another crack at it. KP is no more suitable than Flintoff for the role.
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KP as captain? what a joke. KP and KP alone cost us the series against SA. Switch hitting or what ever you want to call It when in the 80's was totally irresponsible, we were trying to win a test match for god's sake! Yes It looks good and entertains the crowd; but entertainment doesn't win test matches. As for the shot he got out to!!! well need I say more. The appointment of this character would rank along side the great Sir Ian's appointment in 1981, I think even the great man himself would agree with this. As for Paul Collingwood's simultaneous resignation; this smells of "Jump before you are pushed" KP captaining both teams???? I know Colly from our days as youngsters in the Tyneside Senior League; and I know how much being the England captain means to him. His integrity knows no bounds, he isn't the type to resign on a whim, or out of loyalty to MV who I know is a good friend of his. Ok, I've made my point. lets have a couple of new brooms. Rob Key for test captain, Ed Joyce for the one day side!
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my team for the Oval
Trethcothick
Strauss
Vaughan
Bell
Pietersen
Flintoff
Jones
Giles
Hoggard
Jones
Harmison
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I hoped, but did not expect, that Vaughan would step down. He has done so at the appropriate time, and honourably, within 24 hours of a significant series defeat.
In his time he was a great captain. His recovery from injury was evidence of his personal courage and determination. But it is the fate of both sportsmen and politicians to go on too long, and for great careers to end with failure. By stepping down instead of waitnignt o be pushed, he has preserved his dignity.
I had not expected Collingwood to step down. He was my preferred option for one day captain. However, he has cleared the decks, so that a new single captain can be appointed, so on balance he has done the right thing.
I now fear that KP will do a Gordon Brown. He has sat in the background for a long time making it obvious to everyone that he thought the job should be his. Now he's got it, will he actually be up to it? I hope so, but frankly I doubt it.
And if he gets the job and his figures miraculously improve, it will leave a nasty suspicion in my mind that it has served his purposes too conveniently for him to bat so far below his potential for so long, with only intermittent reminders of how good he could be.
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TRESCO
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# 98 ... if KP has been able to engineer a test match average of 50 just to enable him to get hold of the captaincy then he is even better than I realised! Blimey.
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Any views on my thoughts. Rob Key for the test side, Ed Joyce for the one day side???
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Thanks for all the well wishes everyone.
I'll miss you guys.
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#97
Jones, as in Geraint? High score of 53 in Div.1 this season and still only an average gloveman. You are having a laugh, Ambrose hasn't been that bad! Davies would be a better bet if you're looking to the future. I just hope they don't go back to Read, we need his keeping and captaincy (as well as the odd batting contribution) at Notts to maintain our position at the top of both Div 1 of the Championship and the Pro 40.
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why is everyone tipping pietersen?
strauss has had the most experience as captain of both Middlesex and England so should be Test captain. The ODI captain should be ever Ian Bell or Andrew Flintoff. Pietersen was not brilliant against New Zealand and did not use his bowlers wiseley
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His most vociferous detractors accept he is extremely talented.
Taking my point to an extreme to illustrate, 0, 0 , 0, 200 produces an average of 50, whilst also producing three matches where the team's score is lower than it should be.
I exaggerate to illustrate, but it is remarkable that for a long time he has either got a very big score or a very small score.
An average of 50 with all individual scores between 40 and 60 would be less exciting, but more reliable.
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#101
I think Rob Key should open the batting with Cook, Strauss at 3, Bell at 4 and KP at 5. Incidentlly, Key's understudy at Kent, Jo Denly, is one for the future. Don't think much of Joyce.
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Aggers, stick to inventing pot noodles!
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My team against South Africa
1.Strauss (c)
2.Cook
3.Shah
4.Pietersen
5.Bell
6.Collingwood
7.Flintoff
8.Scott
9.Anderson
10.Sidebottom
11.Panesar
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What is he so sad about? They get things out of proportion do these sportsmen. He's had the top job and, like every England captain before him, he hasn't now. Good God, what is there to be so emotional about? It seems to me that his mental state is the problem. Do England really need a captain who is constantly blubbing? If there's something in his private life upsetting him then we can all understand, but there's not many England captains who have won the Ashes back in such a thrilling series so he's got no reason to get the sniffles over it all. Is he really from Yorkshire?
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Good bye thanks very much, but long-term absoulutely the right thing for England
The phrase form is temporary class is forever is so over used, but is very appropriate for Vaughan. Good form in 2002/2003 and has shown his lack of class every since.
Also lauded as England's most successful captain but out of his 26 wins, 20 of those have come against the not very considerable might of West Indies, New Zealand and Bangladesh.
Don't want to burden KP with the captaincy, but so few of the current XI are guranteed their places that it looks like thats the way they are going to go.
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Anyone that witnessed england in 2005 should never forget what vaughan achieved-the first ever ashes series ive seen england win-the whole country was on a high for that whole summer beating the best aussie team ever people who didnt even know what cricket was were caught up in the hype
We have seen vaughan struggle in the last few years but we have also seen alot of poor performances from people in the england shirts-there should be a few people that need to take a hard look in the mirror and start performing consistently when the pressure is on
I think its the right time for vaughan to step down but not necessarily the right thing for england no one jumps up as an obvious successor i wouldnt give it to kp not in a million years but there isnt many other options-i would have given it to colly but who can blame the guy for stepping down as odi skipper copping a 4 match ban for slow over rate! I still think if smith was given out caught on 70 odd england would be 1-1 and vaughan would be the skipper still! We will just have to wait and see-its going to be interesting what side we have for the oval maybe harmison will replace vaughan and england will play with 5 batsmen but i think that leaves us weak! Bring back hoggard jones if fit enough and hope anderson performs better the averages arent pretty for englands bowlers in this series
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Well done MV for 2005 Ashes - what saddens me is that we have a selection process which somehow does not ensure that we have 11 players in form, who represent our Country. The impression one gets is that we have a management team that is light years behind in terms of grooming players for the future. I cannot imagine the Aussies putting up with the state of affairs.
What has come of the "Review" after the last Ashes debacle? We appear to have taken 3 steps back since the Tour in New Zealand. Same problems, same questions and now, same results.
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deeply unhappy and saddened by the news today. England have a habit of losing captains due to stress or pressure (is the media reponsible). What can i say, i followed vaughan since the start of his test career which must have been 1999. It is a shame to see his resign as captain, but he has given England 100% effort and all i can say is thanks for the memories and the hard work, and i hope you make it back into the england team for the ashes next year
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The last truly great England captain, Mike Brearley was replaced by Ian Botham as captain, and that didn't work out so good. It does seem like a clearing of the decks to allow KP in as captain. Does worry me a bit.
But then again is KP going to be a Tony Greig or an Ian Botham as captain. Is he the inspirational captain who gets success through force of personality or an enormously talented player stunted by the pressures of the job?
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Astonisijngly vtriolic some of this!
Michael Vaughan - very good captain, but like he said in his press conference today, the position probably comes with an expiry date. On present form he's not good enough to play so her'es hoping he recovers his best in future. I thought the fact that he chose to resign rather than be pushed, and the way he did it was very classy
As for the anti-Aggers stuff,leave it out chaps, he's a terrific commentator (ask any cricket follower in the rest of the world!), and is perfectly qualified to give his opinion as a ex-Test player blessed with significant but not vast amounts of talent. One of the mistakes people make is to think that great player= great coach or commentator. Not true. A lot of great players had so much naturaltalent they never had to question themsleves about technique etc, and as such are not usually the best people to communicate to others about what needs to be done. The best examples are in football- Ferguson, Shankly, Paisley, Wenger etc - good but not great players.
I acknowledge that Richie Benaud is a class act, but Bumble is a good example of good player, but even better coach/commentator.
Finally as for the captaincy, pick KP for one test BUT aslo pick Key and Read for the Oval, and then decide after that who is best suited to lead the team for the forseeable future
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Good commentary as ever from the TMS team. It is a joy to listen to aggers and co. Anyway, a dead rubber test is perfect a time for changes, and this is the XI I would pick for the 4th test and why.
Strauss (Was a good captain 2006, and needs to regain the groove and momentum he had from the NZ tour earlier this year)
Key (Not many people can say that they have a double hundred in test cricket, but Key can. I have got the impression that he has matured by being captain of Kent and winning trophies, and his form has also improved. Deserves a chance)
Ramprakash (What has this guy not done to gain a recall. Ramps has been treated like dirt by the ECB, as have other players. Ok, he hasn’t been god’s finest gift at Test Cricket, but if county form ever told a story, he would be in the top 3 every time for England)
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Hick (A 30 average at Test Cricket does not tell the story of Mr Hick, again county form has shown that he can still show the youngsters how 40 year olds do it, again can bowl a bit of off-spin and could be a handy match winner)
Sales/Prior (One of the most honest batsmen never to be recognised by the selectors. Consistently hitting the 40 average season after season, David has proved that this wily old figure can produce runs. Albeit he deserves one test if it is to be his last. Also Sales can keep wicket just like Prior, who is proving that he is the best wicketkeeper batsmen we have on the county circuit)
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Broad (Good young talent, had his rest, and picked up wickets for Notts again, good character)
S Jones (Seems to have got over his injury worries and has shown the form that has rekindled people’s imagination about his bowling Ashes victory in 2005)
Harmison (Say what you like about his determination for England, but he is by far the only player after Flintoff that can bowl aggressively. He has been hittin 90mph this season for Durham, and also been picking up wickets like sweets. Deserves a second chance)
Shreck/Hoggard (Both swing bowlers, and also proving to take wickets cheaply. Shreck had enough injury problems to last a lifetime, but has been regaining fitness over past couple of years, and is proving to be an equal threat as Sidebottom. Hoggard has also show the character and form that reminds us of the gritty figure he is in test cricket)
Panesar/Croft (Ignoring Rashid who I don’t rate as yet, Croft has shown why he can perform like Hick and Ramps. He is again prospering in a strengthened Glamorgan side. He was fairly mis used in the 90’s for England, but given a chance can show why he is known as an off spinner)
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I have to ask those who say Vaughan should have stayed - how many more Tests would you give him to regain form? All nine up to the next Ashes, no matter if he averages 10 for them?
Vaughan quite clearly needed a break (NOT permanent drop, a break until he got his form back in the County game) - an average in the 9 matches this year of 24 would definitely have got a less experienced batsman dropped. His batting this whole year hasn't been up to Test standard, let alone his previous form. They don't give your team a bonus 40 runs because you were brilliant three years ago.
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Astonisihingly vitriolic some of this!
Michael Vaughan - very good captain, but like he said in his press conference today, the position probably comes with an expiry date. On present form he's not good enough to play in the team at present so here's hoping he recovers his best in future. I thought the fact that he chose to resign rather than be pushed, and the way he did it was very classy
As for the anti-Aggers stuff,leave it out chaps, he's a terrific commentator (ask any cricket follower in the rest of the world!), and is perfectly qualified to give his opinion as a ex-Test player blessed with significant but not vast amounts of talent. One of the mistakes people make is to think that great player= great coach or commentator. Not true. A lot of great players had so much natural talent they never had to question themsleves about technique etc, and as such are not usually the best people to communicate to others about what needs to be done. The best examples are in football- Ferguson, Shankly, Paisley, Wenger etc - good but not great players.
I acknowledge that Richie Benaud is a class act, and is the exception that proves the rule, but Bumble is a good example of good player, but even better coach/commentator.
Finally as for the captaincy, pick KP for one test BUT also pick Key and Read for the Oval, and then decide after that who is best suited to lead the team for the forseeable future.
PS anyone else agree that there are only 3 problems with the current Eng team - the batting, the bowling and the wicketkeeping?
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I really don't think that there is any evidence in the recent past to allow Michael Vaughan to remain the England captain. He has been marvellous but, let's face it, can England really afford to have 10 players (and that's very debatable) who are contributing with bat or ball to justify their place in the side? Obviously not, because otherwise England would not have lost against a team against whom they should have won the last test. They had them on the ropes but failed because the bowling attack was not incisive enough. They could have played another bowler, but to replace whom? The commonsense answer would either be Paul Collingwood or Michael Vaughan, since both have performed badly in the recent past. The fact that Collingwood scored a century is problematic since it makes further decisions more clouded.
However, not so the case with Michael Vaughan. Nice bloke, but he is there as an opening batsman as well as a captain. Very rarely is a captain indispensable if his contribution can afford to be dismally lacking. So, I don't think this is too much of a surprise. Or people jumping on the bandwagon to blame someone. In this case, Michael Vaughan. The simple case of the matter is that he does not perform adequately with the bat. He is there primarily as an opening batsman and not as a captain. If he can captain and cope with the pressures that come with the job, then fantastic. But he cannot.
It is obvious that an overhaul of the cricketing structure in England, just as is happening with the soccer and rugby union (and has happened so successfully in Welsh Rugby union, and Spanish soccer), an overhaul of the English Cricket system is vital. Otherwise, inconsistency will continue. So, this is not a witchhunt drawn up by the media and Test Match Special. It is concrete fact. It is quite the opposite in my opinion and not a sad day for English cricket, but a good day because everything has to start from somewhere. This is a very similar scenario as to when England did not qualify for the European cup, but were knocked out by Croatia. England had to go back to the drawing board and start all over again. Merely adding layers to an existing foundation does not build a high quality and solid building. Bits will continue to fall off and eventually it will collapse. It took the manager of the Spanish national soccer team at least four years to get where Spain is now. The Spanish team has just won the European cup and are serious contenders for the World Cup in two years time. The English cricket team must apply the same principle all else achievements will continue to elude them and the nation.
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It was very emotional watching Michael Vaughan earlier. He can hold his head high on such a sad day though, he's been a model pro' and a great leader for us and not just during the ashes in 05.
Hopefully it's not the last we see of him as a run scoring Vaughan is one hell of an asset to have.
Big decisions to made now by the powers that be, and they have to be the right ones am I alone in being very nervous about what they may do?
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Some of the comments on here disgust me. Kps mother is English and he has a British passport. England has been his home for almost 10 years. Since being selected he has worked at his game merticulously never let England down of the field and in large part carried the team. He has proven he is mentally very tough, score runs time and time again when Englands back has been to the wall. He has worked closely with Vaughan and Collingwood over the last year learning all the time.
Give the job to KP
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I do believe Michael Vaughan has gone at the right time. I must admit that I felt a little emotional watching his press conference. He seems like a thoroughly nice guy and a has shown great integrity and desire since becoming England captain. However, his batting has been mediocre since returning from injury and series defeats captaining the side against India, Sri Lanka and South Africa meant the timing was right. He is only 33 so he may yet return to form with the bat and play in next summers Ashes series. Stranger things have happened (Mike Gatting in Australia 1993). Vaughan was also unfortunate to return to an England team without Trescothick, Flintoff, Giles and Jones. All vital cogs in the wheel prior (no pun) to his injury problems. I have thought for a while that this current England test team is the worst since the mid 90's (Mullaly, McCague et al) and that there are now too many cooks behind the scenes. I cannot contemplate Pietersen as Test captain (I don't care who the one day captain is) and would opt for Strauss on the basis of his previous experience with Middlesex andf the fact that his batting actually improved with the captaincy responsibilities against Pakistan (2-0 series win) in 2006. 'Monty' Panesar or 'loveable' Monty should never play for England again. He cannot bat or field and his bowling has actually got worse with each series he has played. He iwould be an embarrasment against the Aussies next year. First one off the team sheet for the Oval test please. Finally, my team for that test if anyone is interested. Strauss, Cook, Bell, Pietersen, Key, Prior, Freddie, Broad, Jones, Harmison, Tremlett.
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#123
10 years, sisterkaren? He visited for a few months in 2000 (which he hated, apparently - "those horrible Black Country accents"), and then moved over permanently in 2001.
But yes, his mother was born here, I suppose.
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Thank you, MV. I will always remember you in OZ when you were the best opening bat in the world.
OZ pick the best 11, then the captain.
England doesn't have a best 11: a best squad of 20, maybe. PC gets my vote. Losing to SA is bad enough without adding one to our worries.
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Oozie9, you are right about Monty’s diminishing returns, but one needs a spinner – so who else? Swann isn’t up to it. Rashid has raw talent and is an excellent bat, but it may still be too soon for him. One other point – there are other cri8cket teams in the world apart from Australia, and at least 4 if not 5 of them are a lot better than England are at the moment. Perhaps we should think about performing well in India this winter rather than always talking up our Ashes chances.
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A sad day indeed. But every cloud has a silver lining - with Darren Gough retiring Yorkshire need a captain for a couple of years to bring some of our excellent youngsters through to the highest level - who better than MV. To add captaining the county champions to his CV would complete a fantastic career.
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Vaughan's timing in going was a good as the timing from his bat used to be.
Well played, sir!
Thanks for the good times.
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The pressure on Vaughan has been media driven as the cricket fans I know recognise his value as a captain and knew he would get through it. Form is temporary, class is permanent.
I remember Mark Taylor struggling for Australia for a long time, the selectors and team stuck with him and he got through it with great results towards the end of his term.
KP will be entirely the wrong choice, wrong personality, too egocentric and too valuable as a batsman to lose form because of the pressure. Robert Key is the only logical choice from here.
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Aggers, was it too much to expect that you and your fellow vultures in the press would actually recognise by way of a standing ovation MV's contribution to England cricket over his last 51 test matches as captain? Obviously. After pounding him relentlessly for his lack of form, you've now presided over his moving and courageous self-sacrifice, only to now personally offer up our best batsman as the next lamb to the slaughter. As soon as KP makes one error of judgement in the field, or in bowler selection or when batting you will be down his throat with your self-righteous (and self-serving) criticism. It really makes me seethe to witness such a journeyman (read 'mediocre') cricketer as yourself having the gall to even consider sitting in judgement over Michael Vaughan's career or upon whom the burden of the captaincy should next rest.
Yours, in despair, Neil
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I'm glad Vaughn has gone. He has been a great servant and captain for the last 5 years but we can't carry along players who are in the side just for captaincy. We need consistant batsmen so if Collingwood doesn't score in the next series maybe we will have to leave him out again. Broad must come back in because he may not be the best bowler in the world but he can fill in a second all rounder spot better than Collingwood.
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Thank you Michael Vaughan.
For brilliant batting at times.
For shrewd and creative captaining.
For not ducking the media's bouncers.
For fronting up English Cricket for 5 years.
For being a thoroughly decent guy.
And for going at the right time both for England and yourself.
I for one wish you well for the future. Have a good break - you deserve it.
From a selfish point of view, I also hope that you can free your mind and refocus and come back and bat for England again in the future at your best.
GSD
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Everybody is saying that Pieetersen isn't a team man? Why, one stupid sho that he undoubtably regrets. A big ego? That makes him a great batsmen. It is very unfair to say that he will be selfish and very unfair to say that he won't be a good captain. Someone said he was a sore loser? Where did you get that from? Cook would also be a good candidate but for his age.
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Totally agree with Peter Kirk1. Lay of Aggers you lot - he may not have been a brilliant cricketer, but he's a first class broadcaster; partly because he says what he thinks - while giving us the right to disagree with it. He's a radio natural (with a face to match!) Do you have to have been a brilliant player to qualify as a commentator in a sport? Where does that leave John Arlott, Peter Jones, Mike Ingham, Johnners? Would you sacrifice them for Bob Willis and Alan Shearer....?
As for KP, I share many of the reservations about his captaincy credentials -but I also notice that when he's batting he's always encouraging and geeing up his partners. Is it a coincidence that Bell and Collingwood have scored some of their best runs in partnership with him? I have a sneaking suspicion he might surprise us all. (And if his attempt to bring up his century with a six had been successful we'd all have been lauding him to the skies for his audacity and brilliance.... Criticism is so easy, isn't it....
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Given the Darren Pattinson selection, it's fairly obviously going to be a similar pick for the captaincy.
So, if you believe stupid,Steve Harmison fits the bill.
Or, if you believe Australian-born playing county cricket, maybe Shane Warne!!
This whole situation is truly pathetic. I'm annoyed that if we were going to the Oval 3-0 up after 3 innings victories in a row,Vaughan would STILL be under pressure for his present loss of batting form, even if he'd engineered all 3 of those victories by the most astute bowling changes since Aristotle hung his pads up.
Hope YOU make it 3-0,Smithy Boy!!
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Spot on article Aggers.
Here's hoping Key gets the job.
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100 not out talks through his backside, the typical Yorkshire Nationalist, all brawn and no brain.
Vaughan said on his own admission that he'd been enormously disappointed in his own performance, that it was time to move on for him, spend some time with his family,recharge his abtteries and see how things went then.
Why can't the Yorkshire mafia on this website accept that and get a life and leave him to his.
And who says Pieterson is the right man to captain England, one test in charge and one defeat?
Either bring in someone who is respected and highly regarded as a captain like Key or give Freddie another chance. I hear Gower was critical of Flintoff's mental strength as captain, this from a man who flew over a test wicket dropping flour on it, and is now SKY's analytical presenter and of course a former captain of England.
And isn't it Geoffrey Boycott proclaiming from the rooftops, whatever happens don't send MV back to the yorkshire county side as we are doing very well without him and he won't get in the side.
Vaughan did the right and honourable thing, when your time's up, exit stage left.
Baztheace
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Tigly I agree with most of what you say. Difficult for Rob Key to come into a side that he is not currently part of and take over as captain though. Why don't we get him into the test side under Strauss for the last SA game and see how he goes? I agree about KP and captaincy right now, but am not closed on the issue that it could just be the best way of reigning (reining) him in to be more of a team player. However I think that might be a long shot personally.
Neil I think you're a bit harsh on Aggers but I also lament the media's smelling blood mentality. I'm not surprised that it has finally taken its toll on MV. On the other hand, this is top level international sport with millions of enthusiasts and millions of papers to sell. Sigh.
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Love the dude above who suggested Croft, Hick and Ramprakash for the Oval.
What about Boycott? And I hear that young chap Grace is a good prospect for the future.
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Its a shame its come to this, Vaughan was best skipper for years.
Despite his age Cook would be a better thinking captain than KP, who's batting like Freddie's bowling would be burdened by the job.
Cook bats like his life is on the line anyway and so captaincy wouldn't be a problem.
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Agree with you jimmers, Hick and Ramprakash are members of Saga but they still bat pretty well, so is Croft unless you mean young Steven Croft of Lancashire who is an excellent young player and pasted Hampshire all over the Rose Bowl this afternoon. If you ask me whether Steven Croft could have made the 40 runs Vaughan has made in his last 5 test innings, I'd be willing to bet my car on it.
His time will come.
Baztheace
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Ramps is a non-starter as an idea. Ridiculous. KP is a risk. Strauss is not in the one-day side. Freddie has proved he can't do it as captain (but is brilliant in all other ways). Bell is not a leader. There is not one bowler who is assured of selection. We don't have a wicket-keeper nailed on. Colly has just resigned as one-day captain. Getting warm? Broad is emerging as a fantastic talent but not necessarily as what it says on his CV. Warmer still? Cook. I agree it's a bit early, but it could be a real forward-looking appointment. And a headline writer's dream too: 'recipe for success' 'the right ingredients' etc. I know that's not a rational reason, but think about the facts above, he must be in the frame. GSD
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Baztheace - what car do you drive?
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National captaincy was the making of another impetuous and somewhat self-serving prodigy by the name of David Beckham. Eyebrows were raised at the time, but it turned out to be something of a masterstroke. That's not to say that the same thing would work with KP, but being bold and foreward thinking would be a revolutionary move for the powers that be in English cricket, so why not? It would be absurd to bring in someone from the outside, not currently part of the England dressing room, and expect them to lead; Strauss seems to be me to be in the same situation as Vaughan in terms of regular runs, and in any case doesn't look like a likely leader; so perhaps KP is the only reasonable option.
As for Vaughan, what a noble act. The team had not looked good for a while, and always gave the impression that 50-1 would turn into 50-3, largely due to the captain's form. As a team player, it is the ultimate in humility to know when to step aside. I only hope that the selection for the Oval is worthy of the hole left by this great skipper.
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MV, understandably, declined to suggest a successor during the press conference. However, yesterday he made a point of leaving the field twice - once an over before tea, and at some point about an hour after tea (I think). TMs asked 'so who's in charge, Strauss or KP?' The answer was Strauss. both times. Was MV making a subtle point? (Or had he drunk too much tea?!?)
Strauss is the vice captain and KP the one day vc. Why not promote them both. Colly's 'resignation' means KP can learn how to captain in the ODIs, with Strauss caretaking until the Ashes. If he does well, the selectors can say 'Carry on, we were right with Strauss,' but if he is judged to have failed, the selectors can then say 'KP was the obvious candidate for the Ashes series.'
At the moment, KP should not be captain. He needs to understand that his talent should be for the team's good, not just his. The complaints about his getting out going for the 'glory' six is that had he not got out, he should have scored a lot more runs past his ton. That could have made a lot of difference to the outcome, with SA under more pressure.
I would have liked Colly to take over from MV, but given his form this year that was never going to happen. Hopefully all three will be contributing lots of runs next summer, whoever is captain.
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In 2002/2003 Michael Vaughan was the best-performed batsman in the world, having taken on and beaten the world's best (Australia) in their own backyard. Once again, England's selectors killed the golden goose by making him captain, and once again (as with Botham and latterly Flintoff), they compromised one of their greatest weapons.
I hope Micheal Vaughan comes back to form and that England get five great years out of him as a great batsman. I believe he's made absolutely the right decision.
In the meantime, it's also obvious that the bowlers we have been counting on all summer have been unable to do the job asked of them - it's time that Harmison and Jones, who both justify it, joined Flintoff and made England's attack as potent as possible: even the liablility of dodgy batting line-ups like England currently have can be negated to a certain extent if the bowling is effective enough.
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Aaaah yes the captaincy...tough one isnt it. What we need is a colossus. A tower of strength who leads with an iron will and the unflinching respect of his charges, and maybe just a little fear. A man who, when the chips are down (start the Elgar playing) stands up to be counted. A man whose heart beats with pride at leading our glorious nation in the only sport left played by true gentlemen. A man who.....(record scratches)...dont suppose we could quickly give Greame Smith a new passport and a couple of million quid before Thursday could we!?
KP - love 'im but no way
Oh go on then...give it to Fred
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I said the other day that England had a fair old selection of ignorent fickle and deluded suporters. The extent to which the tune has changed from Agger's blog at the start of the last test match to now seems to justify this.
MV was a great (and i think great is tediously over used word) captain and should still be. He was great team man, and its a credit to him that there was a great unity within the team. Unity is vital and i no that the squad should not be an old gentlemans club, but a cohesive team is essential, and this would be ruined if many of these crazy bloggers were selectors with their visions of sweeping changes.
MV was mentally as strong as you get; people seem to foget that he came back from an increadibly serious and career threatening knee injury. Determantion like that is what you need in a leader; who of the other cantidates can provide that level of steelilness?
Its a great injustice that he has been hounded out because of a couple of bad innings. Agger's you are a legend but for once im a little disencharted with you that you have been swept along with the generally sensasionalist media and have contributed to an unecceasry pressure.
Of course the crux of the problem in losing Vaughan is that there are no real viable alternatives as skipper. This i dont think enough bloggers considerded when calling for MV's head.
Anyone who seys Key; it was a funny joke at first, but seriously guys its so deluded it makes the notion that the Earth is flat have a lot of merit.
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I was pretty moved by Michael Vaughan's speech today. He has shown great character to do this, since it would be better for his to career to be in denial.
He has faced up to the fact that he isn't playing the best. He has however a lot of passion and loves English Cricket. If he had more to work with (or somehow those players could be more consistent), he would still be there.
I know people on here think we should be as good as the Aussies, but we are a minor cricketing nation really. It is not a high priority sport in schools or with the young in general. It isn't played anymore in the streets like it is in India or the West Indies.
Vaughan and the others gave us a great time for 2 or 3 years, acheiving a lot with a limited squad. When the Aussies get out of form they just pick another, when we are out of form, we have no-one.
Thanks Michael, you are a fine man.
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Hey Grumpyspindoctor, thanks for asking, I drive a Mercedes but is this the Top Gear thread?
Strauss is a very nice guy but a bit boring and uninspiring for me, Cook looks the part, good looking with that brylcreem smoothness about him and may indeed be the part in time. Maybe worth a gamble at this stage.
Surely this last test against the Saffers is a time to blood some new young talent and se how they fare, can't be any worse can it, we've just lost 2-0.
Agree we need some spite in attack so Jones and Harmison back to join Freddie.
My Auntie Ethel who is 69 bowls a mean spell of quick bowling in our back garden and was disgusted with the bowling of Sidebotham. Vaughan realised Sidey was worse than useless in the second innings and didn't give him many overs and he's never going to trouble any top sides.
Bazthe ace
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Whoever succeeds Vaughan, good luck. You're replacing the best captain we've had since Mike Brearley and he was the best we've ever had.
It probably had to come now but I do think it's a pity that Vaughan won't play at the Oval, simply because I believe the crowd there would have made a point of showing their appreciation for all of the work he did in making the England side a top side in 2004 and 2005 in particular. I was lucky enough to be at Trentbridge when Nasser Hussain made a hundred in his second Test after giving up the captaincy and the extended ovation he got was at least as much about his captaincy as it was about that knock.
Looking to the future, I really don't want Pietersen to get the job. Nothing against the guy, but his role is to take games away from teams quickly. I fear you will blunt his style too much if you give him that extra burden. Either go to the next generation now in Alastair Cook or, as a shorter term option, Andrew Strauss.
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Whilst it is natural to praise a departed leader and to get emotional about it, one should not forget that his continued presence was adversely affecting the team and its balance.
It is time to move on. Thank him for his services (without going over the top) and get a long prospect in. SA got a 22 year old Smith. I am thinking of Cook.
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Great posting Adoverlongon.
Freddie's the man
Baztheace
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Sound commonsense about the departing Vaughan Satjit, is your last name Mahmood, is so you may be in contention for one of the fastbowling slots yourself?
Vaughan exist please, the tears were good but it's time to rebuild your form now quietly and out of the limelight.
Baztheace
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Baztheace thanks for your reply. Doesn't happen often on here! New blood I agree. Harmy and Jones? I also happen to agree although they're not exactly new blood! It's a conundrum isn't it? We want to win now and this winter and especially next summer. We want new talent of course, but the best we've had in a generation are Harmy and Jones (and of course Freddie). We need to look forward and back. I don't know enough about the young guns coming through in County cricket, but I feel it's a strange situation when a team that has Harmy and Jones available and doesn't pick them. It's like the WI not picking Holding or Croft or Garner because they feel they have to move forward. Go figure. GSD
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Remember, there's always Boycott's mum and her stick of rhubarb....
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How about...
Cook (vc)
Key (c)
Bell
Pietersen (spinner)
Shah
Prior (w)
Flintoff
Broad
Jones
Harmison
Anderson
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He'll be welcomed back in Yorkshire and he can hold his head high.
Fine cricketer, fine gentleman and I don't believe the international scene has seen the last of him yet.
I wonder what he and Matthew Hoggard will be saying to each other at the next Yorkshire dressing room.
Well - the press and fans have gotten rid of him (including Yorkshire board member Boycott). Well done.
Having achieved that, now what?
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Granitestephenmason, you're right on the button. Probably the main reason we haven't got a flood of exciting young talent
coming through is that the Tories under Margaret Thatcher sold off most of the school playing fields. Secondly, teachers are reluctant to supervise school sports for myriad reasons, not least of which is the rigours of the health and safety laws. Thirdly, todays kids, with their short attention span, are attracted by 20/20, not the prospect of unlimited overs cricket. Fourthly, we as a nation are not as intensely committed to cricket as the Aussies and the Saffers. A bit like tennis insofar as it is more or less a middle-class sport. Blah blah blah...
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How can anyone criticise the media for Vaughan deciding to resign as captain?!!? Yes he has been our most successful captain and he should rightly be applauded for that but if he carried on much longer his reputation would have laid in tatters. The top order aren't exactly firing on all cylinders right now and he has been failing with the bat over and over again. For all you saying the media should be ashamed of how they've treated him just how long would you have let the situation continue? You say he would have got another score given time but how much time? There comes a time when you have to draw the line and Vaughan has once again showed what a great captain he's been by knowing when that time was.
I commend him for being a tremendous captain over the past few years, for helping win us back the Ashes in 2005 and for knowing when the time was right to leave with his head held high.
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Whislt I agree that things need to change, I'm not sure who is capable of taking over the England captaincy, especially someone who is over here just because he couldn't get into his provincial side and spat his dummy out and is only trying to prove a point to the saffa selectors. KP only seems to score runs when the media is watching. Being in Yorkshire I hope that MV comes good and gets us up into the top three. He must be thinking 'thank god that's over' with regards to the England captaincy, considering the average bowling attack and less than potent batting attack that we have. I only hope that MV finds some some and returns to the England side that reclaims the ashes.
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...and another thing, Cook strikes me as a bit of a dilettante, although I have no proof of this...
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I don't understand how people can say there's been a media storm whipped up about this-I reckon the media have been remarkably restrained. Vaughan is fully aware that his position is completely untenable-not only has he failed with the bat consistently for the last couple of years, his captaincy hasn't been good enough to prevent us losing home series to India and SA comfrotably.
Vaughany is one of my favourite cricketers of all time, great batsman, seems like a top bloke as well, but he really couldn't stay after this. We at least need to change it up a bit to see if anything works better-because lets be honest, this summer hasn't been pretty so far...
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109-Vaughans born in Lanc hes a manc not a yorkshire man.
Kp for captain.
Cook
Strauss
Shah
KP (c)
Bell
Bopara/Broad
Flintoff
Mustard
Jones
Anderson
Monty
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dude what the hell has that got to do with anything?
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We need to be thinking of at least 6 good bats, 4 all rounders, and 6 bowlers. You don't play mdoern text crciekt keeping the same 11 allthe time. They'll just get wiped out by fatigue in a matter of a year. You need to rotate the team depending on fitness and conditions
1st XI Backups
Cook Denly
Key Shah
Stauss (capt) Bopara
Bell Collingwood
Pietersen Anderson
Prior Sidebottom
S. Broad Panesar
Flintoff
A. Rashid
S. Jones
S. Harmison
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Blimy, I'm not sure whether Vaughan's resigned or died ! It's funny how as soon as someone steps down they're the best thing since sliced bread and praise is all pervasive.
Vaughan was a good captain and, on his day, a quality batsman. But that day has gone, probably for ever, and it's time to look to the future. Unfortunately, England don't have a particularly good team and no one who is captain material has a permenent spot in the side.
England make a lot of the ashes victory and seem to forget it could easliy have gone the other way. A bit like the Rugby world cup.
Looking forward, I would look to Cook to rise to the challenge. Pieterson is not captain material, even at county level, let alone at internatioanl level. Remember when you last tried an egomainiac ? Name of Boycott. Not a great success. There are some useful young players in Broad, Cook and Bell. These are the ones to move England forward into the next decade and I would suggest Giving Cook the job and let him grow into it, a bit like Smith has.
A new bunch of selectors might help as well.
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Wow - what a list. I am adding my comments purely out of respect to the man that forced me to love test cricket again.
Please don't sully the memory of this man, whose honesty, professionalism and pure class made him a joy to watch throughout his career. Never forget him in Australia, flaying the bowling to all parts in a losing cause. Never forget the win in South Africa or of course the greatest win of all in the Ashes.
I have sent a personal email via the Yorkshire website to express my thanks. If it is KP after Michael Vaughan then good luck to him - KP you have some way to go!
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I wonder if anyone else is bemused by the process of picking english captains. Because a player is above average and a sponsors dream does not make him good captain material. In general the players of this type in english cricket past and present have no captaincy experience either at any level. This was true I believe of botham, Flintoff and above all Atherton, who is now pushing Pietersen. As much as I and many others like watching him play the latter also does not have the experience or patience to captain England.
England have a ready made captain and test cricketer in strauss who should have been made captain, instead of flintoff or the injured vaughan, with out all 'the shall we shant we' that went on at the time and did no end of damage to strauss's confidence. I
Please for once england selectors get it right and ignore the talkers who generally were a disaster as far as any sort of captaincy was concerned especially in english cricket.
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I think that one of the openers either Strauss or Cook should be given the captaincy. Strauss because of the success with Pakistan and the fact it should have been him leading the team in the ashes rather than Freddie and Cook as he is the one that regularly scores over 50 not always i will add and even though he gets out (experience will mend that) soon after making these scores, making him captain might just be the motivation for him to try and stick around. SA have shown that a captain needs to lead from the front not at no 4,5 etc
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Why all this bleeding soul-searching? There's no contest is there? How many other countries would love an intelligent, dignified and experienced guy like Strauss to lead them? Are the ECB more concerned with their commercial interests by making a flash celebrity like KP captain? It didn't work last time with Fred did it? How much more rejection is Strauss expected to take? Bet the Aussies will be laughing into their Catlemaine XXXX if KP gets the job!
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Is it just me who thinks that MV mistimed this. I think if he were to quit he could have done it at the end of the series instead of leaving England without a captain for the Oval. At this moment in time no one in the English squad has what it takes to be captain. I think that Strauss would be a good captain, but maybe give it to him when he's back on form. Not now.
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My team for the last test match
Cook
Denly
Pieterson
Bell
Key (Captain)
Flintoff
Prior
Broad
Anderson
Harmison
Panasar
(Sidebottom, Colly rested, Strauss dropped you just cannot stand on your stumps against an 80mph bowler at this level and expect to be picked)
At least we shouln't lose. The rot has to stop before India.
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sad to see mv go!
kp they have to be mad,he's not a captain.
give strauss ago!
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Tks Baztheace
Joking aside, I would qualify my humble opinion by saying that it is made with unending trepidation.
I feel that not even a Phd in psychology could truly unravel why (specifically) Vaughans Athertons Husseins Bothams etc etc etc form in their respective disciplines all dipped upon being handed the highest honour in the game, and my mala beads are starting to wear, hoping that the same fate wont befall Fred should the call come.
For me though, captaincy on the pitch is part bluff, part nous and part inspiration. With a little help he'll get the first, the second and third are his already.
There exists a very rare breed of man who is able, upon seeing the truth of spinozas assertion that ''All noble things are as difficult as they are rare'' steels himself and meets the challenge. In sport these men number but a few including the likes of Jordan, Ali, Bradman etc. From what we have seen to date Flintoff appears to have that same aura, the stuff of myth. It is my hope that he himself would see the captaincy as a vehicle to carry that incredible spirit that he possesses to its zenith, without being dogged by the anxiety which seems to have afflicted each of his recent predecessors.
Pray with me everybody!
All the best
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Captaincy is a special job. This requires man management skills, more than his own departmentsl speciality in batting , bowling, or wicket keeping. M. Vaughan at the moment is the best captain England has who it seems reliquinshed his job as captain because of constant criticism of his loss of form in batting. Batsmen are in the team more because of their potantial to score runs rather than actually scoring runs in a particular match or matches. That is the reason why we find many great batsmen scoring a century in the initial innings and failing to scoring decently in the later four or five innings. It is wrong to expect a batsman to go out and hit up a century in every innings. Vaughan was one such batsman. The selectors should have perwuaded Vaughan not to give up captaincy, before he actually didi so. It is a sad day for Englanad that he will not captain England again.
croatiatwo
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We will all be forever grateful for what michael vaughan has done as england captain, but you cannot hide from the fact his batting has just not been good enough.
He was right to stand down. On current form over the last 4 test series he should not be in the side.
I wish him all the luck in going back to yorkshire and rediscovering his form.
Not only was he a great captain,but he is such a lovely bloke to.Ive been lucky enough to have a pint of his favourite guinness and blackcurrent with him before.
He will be missed,but it was the right time to stand down.
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Thanks for everything MV you were a fine captain. If your heads gone then so be it, good luck with the rest of your career. I would have prefered you to have swapped with Bell to have taken the pressure off a little in the last test and seen out the series but hey its done now just go and chill out with the family. Thanks again.
New captain ?
KP? maybe it will mature him, maybe its just what he needs!!! maybe he'll need a new helmet to get his head in !!!!
Freddie? his post game pressure release is the issue, also does it affect his form?
Strauss? his form is still in question therefore so is his place.
Tough one !!!
On another note can people stop suggesting Harmison to play in the team the last chance saloon has been renamed the Harmison Hotel !! every single last chance he has had he has failed. I like the bloke but he bottles it and doesnt travel so what's the point?
Provisional team for the next test
Strauss
Cook
Bell
KP
Shah
Freddie
Prior
Broad
Jones
Sidebottom
Monty
It bats deep enough and has 5 bowlers.
Need to check how the pitch has been prepared.
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My team for the last test match would be
1.Cook (C)
2.Denly
3.Pieterson
4.Bell
5.Bopara/Shah
6.Flintoff
7.Mustard/Foster
8.Broad
9.Hoggard
10.Harmison
11.Panesar
Anderson 12th man
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Blimey, you'd think Vaughany had died to read all the heart-wrenching tributes. The guy's a great actor, even summoning up real tears. And at the end of the day, his bank balance will be a lot healthier after he publishes his memoirs and accepts the Sky shilling. I'm minded to quote Macbeth, 'Nothing in his life became him like the leaving of it'.
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Michael Vaughan's press conference summed up why he was such a great captain. His honesty, sheer passion for the job, and the privilege he felt leading the England team shone through. I hope he goes back to Yorkshire and scores a lot of runs. At his best, very few batsmen in world cricket could match the way he could completely dominate an attack (and he smashed four big tons against the might of the Aussies). England are short of top quality in the batting department. If Vaughan can rediscover his best form, then only Pietersen can match him.
Onto the subject of Pietersen as captain. It's about time that people appreciated just how many times his innings have bailed out the underachieving batting. Yes, he played a poor shot on Saturday, and it was a mistake! Because he played that shot doesn't mean he's not playing for the team. Pietersen ALWAYS backs himself (how many other England players can say that)? The only thing Pieterson was guilty of was backing himself and getting it wrong.
I'd much rather have him playing a rash shot after scoring 94, than playing a rash shot early in the innings, such as Cook and Bell.
For some bizaare reason, the person that has stood head and shoulders above the other batsmen, and as at times carried the batting, is vilified like this.
I believe he is a team player. The way he geed up Paul Collingwood while Colly was struggling early on during his superb ton is good example.
All I'll say about KP as new captain is that I think it'll either be a disaster or a masterstroke
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Listen Croatiatwo, even your great hero MV doesn't agree with you. As he points out, he can't carry on not scoring runs and expecting a place by right in the England set up. So when he can no longer make a contribution he does the right thing and exits the scene. Cue for lots of ridiculous wailing about how great he was, sorry he wasn't and even he recognkises you can 't go on any longer when your job is to score runs and you can't do that. He is talking sense, the sycophantic Yorkshire mafia clearly aren't.
You might like a non playing captain but the rest of us don't and as for captaincy, he has been completely outshone by Sthanmith the whole series who hasn't found the burden of captaincy a prevention to scoring runs.
Give him credit for doing the right thing and getting out. If you think he's going to walk back into the Yorkshire side , think again.
His performance at the press conference was infinitely better than the ones he produced on the field. With his good looks to boot, maybe an acting career will follow.
Baztheace
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I think this blog shows how well Michael Vaughan is respected.
Hes been an absolute star for England in the last 5 years especially.
His leadership in the Ashes in particular was outstanding.
He bows out with an average of over 40 which is quality. His batting at times was breathtaking.
Its a sad time for English cricket. We have lost arguably one of our finest ever players and our greatest captain.
I just hope to see him in England colours again.
Michael Vaughan= Legend
He should leave with his head held high.
A true servant to english cricket.
As for the Oval test team:
Cook
Strauss
KP (captain)
Bell
Collinwood
Flintoff
Foster
Broad
Anderson
Sidebottom
Panesar
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Captaincy is a special job. This requires man management skills, more than his own departmentsl speciality in batting , bowling, or wicket keeping. M. Vaughan at the moment is the best captain England has who it seems reliquinshed his job as captain because of constant criticism of his loss of form in batting. Batsmen are in the team more because of their potential to score runs rather than actually scoring runs in a particular match or matches. That is the reason why we find many great batsmen scoring a century in the initial innings and failing to scoring decently in the later four or five innings. It is wrong to expect a batsman to go out and hit up a century in every innings. Vaughan was one such batsman. The selectors should have persuaded Vaughan not to give up captaincy, before he actually didi so. It is a sad day for Englanad that he will not captain England again.
croatiatwo
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I have been increasingly annoyed with the media speculation as to Michael Vaughan's position. Why not add pressure to a man who has been coping with a massively difficult post - I'm not surprised he ( and Paul Collingwood ) have found the role of captain and player difficult to cope with. I hope these people in the media( mainly ex cricketers who have come no where near Vaughan's success ) are now happy and in future consider their columns carefully. I for one will miss Vaughan's presence in the test arena and hope that he makes a swift return. As for his captaincy - he leaves a hole that no one during his injury absences could fill and I see no one in the current England side with the necessary abilities. I hope I'm wrong, but I just think we have kissed the Ashes goodbye.
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Cook for captain!
OK so hes not an ideal candidate but KP really wouldnt be suited to it for me. Strauss can't get in the ODI team. Only other real option is Flintoff when you think that Colly has stepped down as ODI captain already. Sadly I think it will be KP but I really hope it isn't as much as I love the guy.
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I'm really disappointed. Vaughan has been a magnificent captain, bringing out the best in some difficult players. He's been left with a poor squad and at present I feel that it's the selectors who deserve to be booted. The high-handed treatment of the captain by Geoff Miller was staggeringly arrogant, and helped to increase the already gathering momentum of pressure against him. The press (and the BBC often refers to the press as if it's not part of it, so let's not forget that) have decided in a quiet week that this is their campaign, and this is the story. Aggers and the TMS guys are exempt from criticism on this but the news headline writers for Radio 5 are right in line.
Vaughan's batting does give rise to concern, though, and the worst of it is that five years ago he was on the verge of becoming the first English batsman to average consistently over 50 since Ken Barrington. England just don't produce world class batsman the way that Australia, SA, India and SL seem to, and the disappointment of his career has been that he has not delivered on the promise of those great days in Australia.
Before he was selected, it's said that a selector went to check him out and said he was a good player, but just keeps getting out. That's it. Too many shots so he doesn't know which one to pick.
We love Vaughany, especially for the Ashes, and there's nobody to touch him for captaincy in the team at present. And as for that middle order, let's not be fooled by the batsmen who continually get to the last chance and then save their places. If they want to be top class, hold them to top class standards. Bring in Shah, Key and Sales, and back them the way that others less deserving have been backed.
And don't let's hear any more talk about being good for the dressing room. Darren Gough would be good for the dressing room but they're not looking to pick him!
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Well that is a courageous decision by michael vaughn. Fair play to the man in my opinion. Id like to thank him for all he has done. He is without doubt the most succesful england captain and also the most well liked, perhaps apart from athers.
On to the succession issue. KP is the natural choice. Key is a non starter. In many ways, when you think about possible captaincy choices, you have to consider the impact the role will have on their playing. In KP's case, i think it may very well make him a better, and not worse, player. The man they call 'mr ego' may very well find that his playing, and, by extension, his ego, will become more refined making him a better player for it. KP offers an exciting proposition for the captaincy. He is the only player apart from sidders who is a defo for both forms of the game, and he presents the future of english cricket. I await the decision with anticipation.
As a back up though, id like see rob key brought into the line up for the oval, just in case ;)
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We need more Saffas in the team, Pietersen and Strauss aren't enough.
I say get Prior, Malan and Ryan McClaran in there now, and as soon as Rudolph qualifies get him in there too (he already has a century against Aus, in Aus to his name).
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I think Vaughan's been an outstanding captain. I know the set up under him was criticised at times for being harder to get out of than to get into, but I saw that as his biggest strength - bringing the players together as a unit.
I don't agree that there aren't obvious candidates for both vacancies. I think both Bell and Cook think about the game in the right way and have demonstrated their flair and ability at the highest level. Granted, we haven't regularly seen 'Australian like' scores and resilience from either of them but then... they're both English! Our players have different qualities, which on their day are as good as anyones.
Thank you MV for raising the profile of the game in a positive way and of course for 2005! I hope the youth payed attention!
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Why the emotional nonsense? Vaughan was a good batsman and captain on his day but that day has gone.
Collingwood has overachieved for one so lacking in quality and his shocking disregard for the spirit of the game (the run-out against New Zealand) means we are well shot of him too.
Next captain should be Andrew Strauss.
Next team should not include Vaughan or Collingwood (one good innings does not make up for his lack of quality).
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Thanks MV, great spell as kipper, brought the ashes home for the first time in years and provided us with a lot of well earned glory!!
As for the next captain, there is only one player in the England side who is world class and is guarenteed a place in the side, so it has to be KP. I think Strauss would also be a top consideration, but he is not in the limited overs team and this split captaincy thing doesn't really work. KP is young and a lot like Ponting for the Aussies, talented but tempestuous. It made him the player he is today and i think KP will find the same.
Moving on, lets hope that the selectors grasp this wonderful opportunity to use this dead rubber of a game at the Oval to give some players a chance. We are not discarding the recent bunch, but lets see what the rest can do. My team for the final test would be:
Cook
Key
Shah
Pieterson (c)
Bopara
Napier
Flintoff
Foster
Broad
Swann
Jones/Tremlett
I don't want to discard the other players, but this will give us a chance to see how the others could do over the winter and against the aussies next summer. KP and Fred stay for obvious reasons. Cook because he's young and needs more experience. The others should all have a chance to get a game under their belt and see if they can take their chance.
Any other ideas??
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Great spell as skipper i mean, of course!!!
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How about some chap called Darren Pattinson who plays for Notts. Think he would make a good captain.
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An honourable exit for an excellent captain who has proved England's most successful even with rather limited resources at his disposal (name England's world class players).
It gives the new appointee time.
KP definitely puts the effort in (the usual degree of hypocrisy from the media, applauding Collie's shot for his ton while lambasting him). My worry is how it might affect his game, would he be the same player with even more of the pressure?
However, it may be an idea to go for a new era as SA did when they appointed Smith, really the only other batsman fitting the bill is Cook.
Strauss - only recently returned to the side, still not entirely secure.
Key - picking a captain who's not good enough to be in the side and has been a failure at test level, true it wouldn't be the strangest thing England selectors have ever doen, but it would be nonsensical.
Freddie - fitness concerns, better to have an "inspirational talisman" and a captain on the field rather than combining both.
I would like to thank Michael Vaughan for bringing some dignity and pride back to English cricket.
I and many other hope to see him return to the test arena with some of his 2003/03 form.
It would be fitting if he returned for the 2009 ashes and showed his best again.
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Thanks for your efforts, Michael over the last 9 years... you will be remembered for the Ashes in 2005 which was always about your leadership.
Now - on the basis that the King is dead, long live the king - here's my 11 for the Oval... and India...and so building some experience for the Ashes next year.
Cook
Denly
Key (c)
Pietersen
Shah
Prior (w)
Flintoff
Bopara
Broad
Sidebottom (or Anderson)
Panesar
KP is not enough of a team player yet, and doesn't understand the bowling piece of cricket well enough - again - yet!
Rob Key would be a direct drop-in replacement for a captain batting at 3. Ian Bell is talented, but flaky and Owais Shah needs to be allowed some time to let his talent show through at test level. Paul Collingwood (and I'm one of his biggest fans) is no longer a better an all-rounder and Ravi Bopara.
The team I've outlined above should also do for the one-day side, with the possible replacement of Denly by Bell.
It's time for a change, folks!
H
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I would go with Strauss for the test captaincy and Pietersen for the ODI job. If it doesn't work out for Strauss and KP does well then bring in KP for tests as well. Strauss did a very fine job against Pakistan in 06 and was unlucky to be overlooked for the Ashes captaincy.
Also, is it inconceivable that Strauss couldn't get back into the one day set up? He averages 32 in ODIs (2 100s, 14 50s), compared with Cook's 31 (1 100, 3 50s) and Bell's 35 (1 100, 14 50s). Unlikely I know, but this is the England selectors we're talking about here...
With talk of Harmison and Jones making comebacks, is it possible that the pace quartet of Flintoff, Hoggard, Harmison and Jones could actually all play in the same match again? I'd given up hope of seeing that. If Harmison and Jones did come back in, I'd probably drop Anderson (not consistent enough, although better than he was) and either Sidebottom or Broad. Ironic that Broad was 'rested' and took 7 wickets for us lot at Notts this week...
My team, not neccessarily for Thursday but for the near future:
Cook
Strauss (c)
Bell
Pietersen
Collingwood
Read/Foster (either, Prior 3rd choice)
Flintoff
2 of: Sidebottom
Anderson
Broad
Harmison
Hoggard
Tremlett
Jones
Panesar.
And finally, M P Vaughan. My favourite cricketer before he was captain, during his time as captain, and hopefully after his time as captain. Thank you, for everything you've done for the England team over the last 5 years, and I hope to see you wearing the three lions again.
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sorry that should be 2 of:
Sidebottom, Anderson, Broad, Harmison, Hoggard, Tremlett.
I think the general view is that Jones is a must and that Panesar will stay on as spinner.
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Coming to think that England managed to set a world record by retaining the same team for 6 consecutive tests looks like big joke for now.
I can hardly think of any other one hour of one session of a test match that could have had such a big dent to the whole shape of team.
I wonder whether all the drama would have happened if England would have manged to pull a victory. I am not sure if the media still realizes that form is temporary and class is permanent. Hows Ricky Ponting been able to have such a successful career both as a player as well as a captain. I think that explains in itself. The media should only be allowed to go to a certain extent and not beyond that.
There have so many team suggestions in this blog. I am not sure how many of them realize that test cricket requires not just pure talent but a different degree of mental strength.
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i cant believe the radical changes from some of the comments above. that will never happen.
vaughan was a great captain but i think the time was ryt for him to go.
next capt?? very hard choice as not many candidates. i would never go for kp as he is our best batsman an would be ruined...
a bold move would be to give it too cook an see how he goes. smith an dhoni were appointed captains without no real international experience. think theyve done decent jobs. strauss aint a certainty for the one dayers so no point with him and keys avg with the bat aint very pleasing.
shah in for vaughan.
team for oval...
cook (C)
strauss
bell
kp
shah
collingwood
flintoff
ambrose
sidebottom/jones
anderson
panesar
thats a realistic team. not all the outrageous suggestions shown above. you know that aint going to happen...
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Michael Vaughan has been an excellent servant to English cricket and if the selectors had been a bit more clued up he might still be in his job.
Vaughan clearly thought the decision to select Pattinson was incorrect and it was that decision and the fact that none of England's top order played to the best of their abilities which ultimately cost England the series.
None of Strauss, Bell, Cook and Collingwood have performed at the top of their game (except in patches) and Pieterson's ego clouded his judgement on several occassions. Ambrose simply didn't score enough runs to justify his place in the team.
I still think Vaughan has something to offer and hope he will be back in the team once he gets his head in the right place again.
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Why do we make such a fuss about the captaincy? Is this purely driven by sponsorship issues? Why don't we pick the best team then pick a captain from it? With Vaughan gone, Strauss is clearly the best captain and was shabbily treated when he lost out to Flintoff prior to the previous Ashes tour. In my view this destroyed his confidence and he's never been the same batsman since. If he's in the side though (Test or ODI), for me he should be captain, but he's probably only a couple of low scores away from his place coming under threat. By not naming him as "England captain" as such, we'd avoid the situation of not being able to drop him if he lost form. As for Pietersen, he's the only world class batsman we have but he's still too prone to alarming rushes of blood - it's only a couple of days since he was out playing a ludicrous shot for his own aims when he could have won the game for his team. Even more worrying for me, he seemed to be hell-bent on self-destruction in the run-up to his dismissal, playing more and more outrageous and reckless shots until he got out, exactly the opposite of what was required in the circumstances. Lastly, he freely admits he has no experience of captaincy whatsoever. I don't think England can afford to have someone learning on the job.
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the fact that there are no automatic choices for next captain is more indicative of England's problems - there has not been enough leadership or collective responsibility for some time. Possibly this is Vaughan's influence - did he father the team a bit too much?
Ultimately, however, I fear the selectors have been the architects of their own downfall (or more so the team's, since the selectors aren't resigning here..). England are now in the position they were in when Vaughan became injured in Pakistan, however in the process, two next-in-line captains have been demoralised and progress has certainly been stunted. KP is the only one who can step in - good luck to him.
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dbassist - well said mate I agree totally!
I hope that everyone who called for Vaughan's head now feels ashamed. England are in big trouble now and you can say goodbye to any chance of us winning the Ashes next year. We are not blessed with many world class players but Vaughan's considered and driven leadership was one trump card we did have!
May I also point out that Graeme Smith went 2 and a half years without a Test century between April 2005 and October 2007 but SA persisted with him and he has, in time, regained his form to devastating effect. Vaughany scored a century at the start of this summer and yet the media and so-called fans have driven him out of the captaincy with their short-sighted needling. Mr Agnew, who I usually admire greatly, has sadly got to take some of the blame for this. What was he doing heaping extra pressure on the England captain just before the Edgbaston Test?
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Knowing when to quit is an essential aspect of leadership. As a West Indian cricket fan I wish some of our W.I captians had this quality.
Michael Vaughan I wish you well. You have made the right choice and with your ability and capability you can only succeed. You will come back a greater cricketer.
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MrMarshey spot on.
As i mentioned in my previus post #149, we have some crazy so called fans.
Vaughan was a brilliant captain, you need 20 wickets to win a match, a captain has a understatedly large influence in getting some of those wickets. I dont think many people on here properly understand field placings, but MV are top notch.
It is generally acknowelged by everyone that he was the best skipper of the last 30 years. To have such a great capt who also has the class to average 40+, is something special to have. To discard him in such a shabby manner will be greatly regretted.
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Judgement is of course clouded due to the events of 2005 but it should always be remembered that but for one poor umpiring decision we would have lost those Ashes
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i take it you mean the Kasper decision at Edgbaston? lets not forget that kasper was plumb LBW long before they ever go near the required score and not given out by the umpire.
as for KP, not his biggest fan as captain but people should give him a break. why do people insisit he is selfish and no a team player? his shot the other day was silly, yes, but no sillier than the one Cook played, or Bell. yet do we accuse thee players of being selfish? Do we point out that these shots were detremental to the team effort? oddly enough, no. Yet KP, who worked harder than the rest of the top order bar Colly to keep england in the match, is the subject of who knows hw many bogs and newspaper articles about his selfishness. There was the same thing at headingly, where people said he didnt know how to play for the team, that he was too aggresive, despite the fact that he was out to a defensive shot and before that did what every good player is supposed to do - put away the rank bad ball.
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another point to make; whats all this nonsense about Vaughan being driven out? the captaincy affected him - as everyone whos captained Enland has attested to and he walked away of his own accord and because of his own doubts about his batting, not because of anybody elses. I loved his captaincy and as a player he was wonderful, but the fact is this; as captain he averaged 36.02 which in the modern era is just not good enough, especially not from 3 and is not enough to keep a man in the team nomatter how good his captaincy is.
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I think that Miichael Vaughan has done an excellent job as captain and is one of the most elegant English batsmen for a long time. The fact that things have not gone well for him recently, either as batsman or captain, should not detract from that.
He is to be applauded for his gallant decision to step down from the captaincy, but I hope he may come back to play a role in the team, because England are very short of experienced batsmen. He may well be able to play an important role in the future without the burden of captaincy. I would like to think so.
The debate about the new captain is interesting but I would venture to say that there is no easy solution and that he will will not come from any of the current test or one-day match squads, I would like to think that Pietersen might be a candidate but he has not given any credible indication that he might be up to the job. Maybe in the fiuture but I doubt it.
The job of England captain requires an accute cricketing mind, something that I believe Michael Vaughan had . Not many jobs in cricket require a high intellectual ability, though it is helpful. Mlke Brearly, a pretty ordinary batsman showed in 1981
that the ability to read what is going on and take the appropiate decisions is very useful.
We will miss Michael Vaughan , but none is indispensable.
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I have no problem with KP as captain- he's one of the few players in the side who is there on cricketing merit and not because he's mates with the right people. Power to KP's elbow if he's capt. Hopefully, he'll be able to put his imprint on the make-up of the England side and get rid of the deadweights.
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Only way forward is to make KP the one day captain and Strauss the test captain (let him know it is dependent on form though he will be given an extended vaugnesque run). Thus KP can be tested in the shorter form of the game to see if he has the potential to lead in the big kahuna form of the game. Hopefully he will mature more and learn to be selfless.
Maktub.
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#212: Strauss shouldn't even be in the side. I don't care how many he scored against NZ.
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I'm going too miss MV but in light of how he characterised the stress of being Captain, we might notice that what many people perceive as KP's arrogance is the very trait that could encourage his success if named Captain. His (often appropriate) self-importance would buffer him from the criticism and scrutiny heaped on the person in that role. I've also noticed that he's often spoken in post-match interviews as though he led the side: praising each teammate by name and run-total or wicket-haul. Was that arrogance or just the mindset of someone who truly thinks of cricket as a team sport? Something else: we know he's hungry, both personally for various milestones (remember the leaping about he did after his first test match ton at Lord's?) and for our team. Lastly: you can bet that the person who criticised KP the hardest over that 94 was KP himself. All I know is, if it was me at the crease, I'd have been out on either 9 or 4 or, more likely it would have just looked like a Bodyline Series! My hat's off to the whole side.
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Kevin Pietersen would be the obvious choice to replace Vaughan if it weren't for his accent. Do we really want an England captain with a southern hemisphere accent again?
It was bad enough having to listen to Tony Greig but at least he had a good cricketing brain.
What's wrong with Strauss apart from the association with Viennese popular music? But he doesn't have an Austrian accent and, as far as I know, has never been to see die Fledermaus (even though he certainly knows how to 'bat').
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Well, I hope you're all pleased at hounding the finest England captain in many years out of his job. I had assumed as so many had been so sure that he had to go that you would all have a replacement lined up. It appears not. The aussies must be wetting themselves. Blown it Aggers and co. Thanks.
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Can someone please tell me what skill set to be captain KP has demonstrated to date? My blog comments usually centre around his arrogance and selfishness and I think it is generally accepted that those comments are not unfair criticisms. I am not suggesting at all that he does not have talent and is not a very good player. The appointment of the next England captain however is a major step and to suggest that KP be given the job because he is one of few automatic picks for both the test and one day sides astounds me. It may be that his ego and selfish approach to the game could work in his favour as captain and bring the fresh ideas that are needed. But it is a major step and surely someone with those sorts of qualities is just too big a risk in the present environment of English cricket? Make him the vice captain instead to ensure that he has some input.
The difference between the management of cricket in Australian and in England is marked. KP would not be put on the "talent" pedestal nearly as much in Australia (because most of the Australian side and fringe players are extremely talented and probably just as good as him) and there is simply no way that he would stand a chance of being appointed captain. There are far too many other cricket brains in the side that would rank a long way ahead of him.
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The comments regarding Agnew's suitability as a commentator because he played little Test cricket are just stupid. The qualifications of the best ever cricket commentator - poet and ex policeman - would mean John Arlott would never have been let anywhere near a microphone. I think Agnew is prepared to ask the questions cricket lovers would ask themselves. I find Atherton ( although always informative ) and Hussain more annoying given their previous lack of communication with the media when they had the captaincy. Although a player I think Agnew does his best to avoid the 'old boy network' which is so prevelent among soccer TV pundits.
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216. At 07:46am on 04 Aug 2008, freerandfairer wrote:
Well, I hope you're all pleased at hounding the finest England captain in many years out of his job. I had assumed as so many had been so sure that he had to go that you would all have a replacement lined up. It appears not. The aussies must be wetting themselves. Blown it Aggers and co. Thanks.
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Oh please, thats not a huge loss for england. Vaughan actually did england a favour. He was gonna get the boot so he resigned first, less work for the coach! He certainly was a leader but not a very effective one of late. He's been absolute rubbish of late and for Colly to give up his one-day captaincy role is a major plus as well. Hopefully somebody aggressive and more dictatorial could lead the way, somebody with self belief, somebody with a huge ego, somebody born and bred in South Africa!
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217. At 07:47am on 04 Aug 2008, paidster wrote:
Can someone please tell me what skill set to be captain KP has demonstrated to date?
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Well, if u look at Australia's past captains and South Africa's present captain, they all aggressive players, players with huge ego's! Maybe that's what england need, somebody with self belief and a massive ego to not only push himself but his team mates as well. Maybe KP might just be what england need!
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It was kind of an end of an era on Sunday with Michael Vaughan stepping down as captain.
I just wanted to say thanks Michael for all you've done for England. I've been an avid follower of England for almost 30 years now and we've never had anywhere near the success we've had like we did when you became captain.
Fantastic memories, not just 2005 (which is the obvious one) but in the West Indies 2003/04 (where we won for the first time in years) and in South Africa 2004/05.
As captain, England won as many Test Matches under Vaughan than they did in the whole of the 80's. Under Goochie and Ather's we won a few more and even more under Nasser, but none of them compare to Vaughan's recored.
If the next captain gets close to what MV achieved then I'll be happy.
Fantastic and thanks Michael.
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Cant believe all the people who have named sides without collingwood in it after his gritty 135 the other day! Ok he has been out of touch but that ton was better than smiths-the cheating saffer should never have made a hundred! Cant wait for this referall system to come in for good then these decisions cant impact on matches/series so often.
Cook Always looks scratchy and uncomfortable
Bell -Looks great then gets out all too easily
Strauss-completely out of touch seems to lose any form/confidence if he gets a few bad decisions i.e here and australia
Kp-most likely to score big runs
Collingwood-great knock last match still has to prove himself for consistency
Shah-If picked will have to score runs at the oval or the doubters will be out for him
Flintoff-great bowling very overused but lacks regular runs
Ambrose-keeping not cost england alot but batting could be more secure looks to have changed his style because of a run of poor scores
Anderson-2 good balls in six bowls from too wide of the crease at release-ball would be more effective starting straighter
Hoggard-loss of confidence after being harshly dropped needs to produce if picked
Jones(if fit enough)-can this guy get back to his best if so imagine him and flintoff in tandom
If you look at that side how many of those players actually have performed well enough to be guaranteed there place or have their position under scrutiny there is not alot
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217 - There is a big difference between Ponting/Smith and KP. Ponting in particular is an aggressive player but his ego is not in the same class as KP's. Ponting obviously knows that he is good (which he is) but does not think the world of himself. This is evident from the way that he plays as he puts his players and the team before himself. To promote and/or give KP the honour of captaining England after the way that he has played in the past test match makes a mockery of the position. He should demonstrate that he plays for his country and team before himself before he is given the reward of captaincy.
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Please, please no Pietersen as skipper. Fine batsman he indeed is but captaincy material, no way. For him it's all about the cult of me me me and £. Pietersen is little more than a very talented cricketing mercenary. I would think that opposing teams will find it very easy to mentally target him too. If he does get appointed it will be a travesty and end in tears.
Rob Key step forward.
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Get Key in the team !
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It's clearly going to be Pietersen so let's get behind him and wish him all the best.
For all his perceived arrogance without his runs since coming into the side we'd have suffered as I don't see any serious contender for his position coming through. Shah Bopara Key at least a rung down in my opinion. He's also brilliant when dealing with young supporters.
Good luck Kev!
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Whoever does get the job, in my opinion they'll only be keeping the seat warm. In a couple of years (probably following the Ashes next summer, to be honest) Alistair Cook will take over.
Vaughan has been great, but all good things come to an end.
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Appreciate that a cricket team needs a captain. but in reality his role is limited to changing the bowlers and field placing, and clapping the team every now and then. Otherwise it matters not. Unless those who have played the game at a serious level need someone to blame if there is a sequence of losses. Pick the best 11 players, and one of them can be captain.
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Very great shame about Vaughan, easily the best captain at the moment but have to agree his lack of runs did for him. Could he have survived a la Mike Brearley? Given his emotional resignation, I am not sure he could have lived with (potentially) not contributing with the bat down at 7.
Can I also eat a large slice of humble pie, forced down my throat by Colly's flashing blade. Thought it was a backward step bringing him back, but even if he never plays again, what a great knock and an example to us all.
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fingeraloft, I have read some rubbish on these posts, but your contribution just hit the heights if you think that is all a captain's role is...
what about man management?
what about organizational skills?
what about psyching the opposition?
what about the intuitive proactive ability to make things happen?
what about the degree of subtlety required to plot and carry out a plan?
what about dealing with the media?
what about team-building?
what about the myriad other intricacies of the role that the ordinary man-in-the-street never sees?
I'm all for choosing the 'best man' from the eleven...but to say 'one of them can be captain'...for heaven's sake, let's have some sense talked.
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Vaughan was badly let down by a fool of a Chairman of Selectors. It left him with a weak batting order putting more pressure on Vaughan himself as a batter. With Pattinson in then out, Ambrose at six and Collingwood out then in, it was always going to end in tears.
I hope we see Vaughan back again in the England side, on his day he was the finest English batsman I have ever seen, and I hope we see some new blood in the batting order. Strauss and Collingwood no longer have what it takes and Bell must start to make runs when the pressures on or make way for someone who can.
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MV did a great job but has got out at the right time. His batting has suffered grealty for some time and from the outside his captaincy seemed to have lost its edge. Hopefully he will go back to enjoying his cricket and scoring bags of runs. To promote from within has its drawbacks. In these days of centrally contracted players no one now gets the opportunity to skipper their county therefore there is next to no experience within the current squad. Does that mean someone from outside which would certainly shake up a batting lineup that gets picked time after time, failure after failure. I don't envy the selectors but there is no margin for error. Perhaps someone from inside the squad should get the last test and then a permanent appointment made?
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Given the new direction in the teams I would get a test squad of 16 (almost in readiness for the upcoming tours). This would be (in no particular order):
Bat: Strauss, Cook, Bell, Pietersen, Collingwood, Bopara, Shah, Key
Keepers: Prior, Foster
Bowlers: Anderson, Sidebottom, S.Jones, Panesar
"All-Rounders": Flintoff, Broad
Reserves: Harmison, Hoggard, Ambrose, Vaughan (for the tours?)
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please please please not pieterson
he is our best matchwinner with the bat, he is outrageously good and does stuff that no one else can, if he is skip will he stop? will he encourage others to bat more like him? i can only see it affecting he potency with the bat and of course he isn't even english
i would have to say strauss is the obvious choice, i think it is clear that in cook we may have a long term england skipper in the making so this next appointment may only be for a year or two max, i would like to see key come in and things to be given a shake up. he is way better than he was a few years ago when he was in the side (and was still ok then) he also seems a good county captain and a good bloke. he would certainly get more runs than vaughan at 3 and could play in all 3 sides easily
i cant see a way back for vaughan as a batter only, he will need to prove himself in county cricket first and he wont get the runs of a bopara, shah, key, ramps, prior etc
would he have wanted a 33 year old rubbish fielder in his side? i dont think so
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It's always sad when a captain who has once been very good has to resign, but when he has not been worth his place as a player over a reasonable period there is no alternative.
I'm a great KP fan, so I think he should be appointed for for the rest of the series, or maybe a little longer to see how he goes. You can never tell how good or bad a captain anyone will be until he gets the job.
Fingers crossed.
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...as far as badboyclub1983's post goes, the words scraping and barrel spring to mind. pick strauss as skipper and you have the vaughan problem all over again: he is not consistently making runs. key might be a good bloke, but good blokes don't necessarily make good captains. and what is wrong with vaughan's fielding? i mean. kick a guy when's he's down but he took a magnificent catch to dismiss boucher in the first innings and i watched him make the most acrobatic stop to prevent a boundary. and as he said at his press conference, his knee is in good shape. So, don't be ageist!
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Pietersen's out shot on 94 was not the act of a team-player or a future England captain in my book!
Has to be Strauss short-term, Cook's too young, no one else has the experience and no other obvious candidate from the county set.
Key, in my opinion, could just be another good county/average Test player in the Ramps/Hick vein?
Make Pietersen the Test vice and lead the one-day team to learn the ropes and get experience.
Hats off to Vaughan, his overall record speaks for itself, and look at our position in the world game over the past 5 years.
He may not have been a consistent scorer, but he's made some damn good scores, maybe he has a few more left in the tank??
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This is a strange country!
We keep Vaughan for too long with blind allegiance to captaincy over runs.
We push Collingwood so that, for no good reason, we can have the same captain for the one day and test teams.
And now we are going to select KP just because he is the only one who is definitely going to be in both teams.
Boys boys boys. Get yourselves together.
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Please, please, please - not KP!
We've seen it before........ Freddie and (going back a bit) Beefy. Brilliant and charismatic, they were the peoples' choices, and both appointments ended in tears. Both suffered with their form, and both were found to be wanting. A captain needs to have many strings to his bow - not least of which is 'man management'.
It took Mike Brearley to get the best out of Botham and Michael Vaughan did the same with Freddie.
If we have to go with someone IN the current team, then Strauss would be my choice. I do however think it's time for boldness. Change the wicket-keeper once and for all (Foster or Read), bring back a tried-and-tested bowler (Jones), and start looking to the future with Broad.
Oh yes - and give the captaincy to Rob Key!
My Oval team:
Cook
Key (c)
Bell
Pietersen
Shah
Flintoff
Foster(wk)
Broad
Anderson
Jones
Panesar
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Whilst I agree with cityboy (posted 9:10 am) that captaining a cricket team, especially at the highest level, is a complex, many-faceted and subtle task, I think it's fair to sat that measuring the value a captain adds simply by reason of his captaincy is even more problematic. Many claim that Vaughan has been an excellent captain, and they may well be right - but how exactly do we measure this?
If someone else had captained the same players, against the same opposition under the same conditions, would they have done the same, better or worse than Vaughan? Clearly, we cannot tell since as someone wise once said 'we do not get to see the other universe.'
Also, if Vaughan is scoring roughly 70 runs a test match short of what a decent, in-form batsman should then if he is replaced by a batsman who actually scores those extra runs then the change in captaincy would have to cost us more than those runs for us to be any worse off. If the new batsman is 70 runs better than Vaughan but the new captain is (let's say) 40 runs worse, then even though we've got a worse captain, we're 30 runs better off, all told.
At the risk of stating the obvious in the end winning tests matches (or at least, not losing them) is about scoring more runs than the oppostion and on that basis giving them a 70 run start (and that, roughly speaking, is what we seem to be doing by selecting Vaughan in his present form) is not really a very smart move. Unless a team actively dislikes and/or disrespects the captain to the point where team morale suffers, I question whether any captain can make that many runs difference on a regular basis.
Whilst it's true that all batsman go through bad patches my perception is - and I may be wrong - that Vaughan's has been particularly bad, has gone on for a long time (admittedly with a few interruptions by the odd good score) and shows no signs of ending. It's because of these considerations that I am amongst those who think Vaughan has done the right thing.
Anyway, good luck to him - he was undoubtedly once an excellent test batsman and - more importantly in the end and as far as we can tell from sound-bites - he seems like a pretty decent human being.
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Vaughan had to go, he failed on two accounts, one with the bat, and two as captain.
Since 2005 when ever he was picked England have effectively been playing with a man short. There should have been no place in the team for a number 3 who scores 50 every other test series.
As captain he lost control of the fundamentals. For example, he failed to instruct batsmen, when necessary, to stay at the crease for six hours even if only six runs were scored. No, he allowed the likes of Pietersen and Flintoff to play as they wanted rather than what the game demanded. He's not with it if he cannot get bowler to bowl line and length.
The selectors today should name today the captain for only the next match. They should take time and examing this seasons performance, not last years or one three years ago, but this seasons performance, of whole squad of central contract players and also the county players who have shown high levels of skill. Its the present and future not the past that is important. It is only then should a tour captain be named and on the understanding it does not guaranty a place in each and every game.
The players must be made to understand that they are highly paid professional sportsmen and if they don't perform they are out. They are only as good as their last game. We should no longer accept that winning 21 games out of 56 is a good record, its a failure, not only of the captain and players but also that of the selectors.
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More anti- Pieterson bile from Agnew.
You have to wonder about Agnew's partiality. First Vaughan and that nasty interview, now a tirade against England's best batsman.
Maybe Vaughan is right. Agnew has a thing against talented cricketers (those better than him, that is).
Makes you wonder if we should have somebody a bit more objective giving us the commentaries.
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I've just finished crying.
Michael Vaughan, easily the best thing to come out of Lancashire since the M62, is no longer England's captain. I just hope that God's Broad Acres are able to offer him time to rest and recoup before England bangs on his door again - as it should, for the man has class.
Meantime, where does England go? A FIGJAM diet, or some Southerner who's been out of England strip since who knows when?
Icons such as Freddie/KP are fine in theory, but it's too much to ask for responsible actions while expecting them to walk on water. Give Andrew Strauss the chance to show what he might have been able to achieve if he'd had the selectors' trust.
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I think it was the right time for Vaughan to step aside, for his own sake! He needs the opportunity to step away for a little while and regain form in county cricket, in the same way other have and will in the future.
I personally hope that the selectors do choose KP for both captaining positions! Now that Vaughan has gone, and he did a great job, it would be great if we were blessed with a fiercly combative and talented captain, someone who really could lead by example, play the game with flare and confidence. I also think, given that he bats better when up against it, that the extra responsibility will be good for him, not a burden like the previous 4 of Vaughan, Hussain, Stewart and Atherton.
I also hope that the selectors pick a team with a view to the winter tours... Bowlers in particular! I'd like to see something like the following for the final test, to see if a few candidates are ready for test cricket again... what better time to find out?!:
Strauss
Cook
Key
KP (Cptn)
Bell
Bopara
Flintoff
Foster (Wkt)
Hoggard
S. Jones
Harmison
That's no reflection on the like of Sidebottom or Anderson, as they have both already booked their seats on the plane. This selection should once and for all, end the debate as to whether the "Fab 4" should be back in the team or not! Allowing the team and the selectors to go into the winter with a clear idea of what team they want to pick!
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A bold and brave decision by Vaughan. But he has at least left at a time when everybody will remember all that England acheived under his captaincy. This may just be a glitch in his form (and we all hope it is) and as he does think of the team this may be best for England, Vaughan seems to think so. KP for captain will be interesting and may actually stabilise him. I think KP sometimes does play for the team just in a different way. Yes he was reckless on 94 and also with that 13 but at the same time that 94 helped Collingwood get a decent score. And it was with KP that Bell started his way with 199. Let's not stick the knives into KP before he is captain. But we could see quite a different team at the Oval.
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I think it is a naive and short-sighted move to put Pietersen in as captain. First off, there is more to captaincy than scoring runs. Vaughan gets the best out of players, for one thing. Pietersen, going back to the 2005 Ashes, is so obviously NOT a team player - he is in it for himself, and rouses himself when he PERSONALLY needs to prove a point. The guy is a maverick talent. We can accept him throwing away his wicket through sheer hubris, because he does get us runs, but not when he is captain. The guy is a total loner, and when he 'says the right thing' you can almost see the script his publicists and agents have put in front of him to try to soften his harsh image. The day a mercenary cricketer like that becomes England captain is a sad day for sport.
On the other hand, the solution is not easy. I personally would not announce a mid or long term captain. We DO need a captain who can justify his place in the side, as a batsman or bowler. Strauss isn't secure enough, nor would Key be, Flintoff would be a backward step. I would pick Strauss, but only for the Oval test. The one mistake english cricket makes time and time again is not picking players on form. The next captain would then be picked nearer the time, again on form.
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I definitely agree that it was time for him to go, as he just wasn't making the runs to justify his place. It's a shame, as I think he's been a tactically astute captain, if not the most motivational. However, astuteness and unorthodox field settings aren't enough to keep you in the team, and I think that if it weren't for the quality of his leadership, he would have been out a while ago.
I don't think there's anyone else in the line-up who will be as good a captein as MV, but we have to make do with what we've got. I'm surprised how little support theres been for Cook in the posts here. Ok, he's not making the big big scores, but how many times have we heard 'Cook and Strauss made a solid start...' before the tales of a mid-order collapse? He's got a level head, and for my money is one of the few to be a sure start in the team.
Love KP, but let's leave him to his bating duties, he's more of a comic sub-plot that a leading character, and is very effective in this role.
For my mind, we need a young guy like Cook, who can establish himself for the long-term, rather than an older guy like Strauss who may be more effective in the short term, but realistically doesn't have many more years left.
Put Cook in there, give him support [in the dressing room, and in the media] and let him make a few mistakes and learn from them. It's a bold choice, and so not one that the selectors are likely to make, but to my mind the best long-term solution.
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Agreed, Cook is a far better proposition than Pietersen, and one for the future. Would be great for him to ply his trade as captain over the next 10 years...geeze, what a captain he would develop into...
...but our current selectors are too reactive and unsure in their decisions. I can see them choosing Pietersen based simply on the Ashes next year--plus winning the popularity vote to save their bacon. If they do, so be it...as long as Pietersen doesn't stand in Cook's natural progression to England captain.
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I agree with Wellythething, a test everage of 31 in 15 tests (Inflated by one big score) is a good enough indication that Key was not quite ready for test cricket, when he was given the chance, surely he has to get back in the team and prove himself before being considered for captain.
I think people on this list should show some respect to the best player england have by a mile! Pietersen's average with the bat is over 50, Bell's is next best on 43, shows he is clearly our best batsman! ok, he played a rash shot on 94 the other day, but at least he failed in the 90's! Bell and Cook hardly covered themselves in glory in the shots they played to get out in that innings did they!?!?!?!?!
Pietersen is a born winner who is very confident in his own abilities, us english dont like that do we? we love gallant losers dont we? i think his appointment could be inspired, yes he lacks captaincy experience but he is our best player and there have been other instances of this working....and this nonsence about him not being a team player, how often does he mention the team in interviews, more than any other player barring the captain, thats what!
I think certain cricket fans need to move with the times, because the game of cricket is currenrly evolving at quite a rapid rate.
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I was beging to think mijking new a little about cricket until he listed flintoff and broad as allrounders.
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Whoever follows Vaughan as captain inherits a side with structural problems. The opening attack is pedestrian and inaccurate. The lesson of the 2005 Ashes surely is that we need fast bowlers of true pace suppplemented by a classic swing bowler (Hoggard's role). On good test wickets the need is for "enforcers" to make things happen. Our batting is inconsistent with Strauss and Bell particularly unreliable with both seeming to lack the grit to grind out an innings. (Collingwood has at last come good). Selection does seem to be a problem - surely one of Jones or Harmison should have played at Headingly and Edgbaston and Broad seems to be rather unlucky as he bats better than most and bowls better than Sidebottom. Surely we have 2 or more batsmen who could do better than the current incumbents.
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tallpaul87, you seem like the type of chap that i'll certainly buy a beer. KP is the only logical answer to the captaincy debacle! I say give the guy a 1-year trial period as captain, if he doesn't produce the goods then, he gets the boot.
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I think that Vaughan's situation became untenable in the end. He hasn't been scoring runs consistently in any form of the game for a few years now. Even on the odd occasion that he turns out for Yorkshire, it is either a failure or a cameo style 30 odd. Whilst in his defence, Vaughan has scored a couple of hundreds against pretty week opposition over the last year or so (WI and NZ) there is little else of any real note. For those that feel that we should have retained Vaughan, can you honestly see him getting runs consistently at no 3 against Australia in next summers ashes ?
If we are to change captaincy, we should do this now so that it allows his replacement to bed down in the role before next summer, with Vaughan there would be too many unanswered questions. What I would say about Vaughan is that he is the most sublime player since David Gower when he is scoring runs. I doubt that he will rediscover the form of a few years ago, but if he does, don't discount his as a player.
In terms of a replacement, whilst it is obvious that the selectors will take the obvious option with Pieterson, I wouldn't go that way as I don't think he can change, neither do I think he should change. We all marvel at his approach to the game when he is doing well, but then crucify him when he throws it away. Unfortunately, you can't have it both ways and England should enjoy what Pieterson can offer them. That doesn't however mean that he should be the captain, and my choice would certainly be Robert Key. He has been batting really well in all forms of the game, and from what I hear and see he has become a very astute county captain. I doubt that the selectors will be so "inventive" and I see Pieterson being made captain with Shah coming in for Vaughan (I guess Shah deserves a chance).
I wouldn't be surprised also to see Prior or Foster in for Ambrose who hasn't really impressed against S.Africa with the bat. I also expect a recall for Harmison, but I am not convinced at all that he has the desire to commit everything to his cricket
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Vaughan has been a fantastic captain for England as well as a top batsman over the years.
I dont want to see him step down because I cant see a reasonable understudy but I understand why he has.
In the end if he is not 100% certain that he should have the job then it is the right thing to do to step aside.
That said I hope he goes back to Yorkshire, gets some well earned rest and then sets about regaining his form as one fo the countries best batsmen, because of all the previous England captains,. he is the one who I think can and would deserve to come back and regain his place in the team in the future, he still has another 5 years of good cricket in him if he wants it and can be a great asset to the country once again when he gets his head right.
Collinwood is a puzzling one but if it has genuienely been a reason why he has beens truggling then again it is the right thing to do.
I would see them both out of the final test myself, there is no way that either can be mentally ready to play after that announcement. England should bring in a fifth bowler (Harmison probably) and another Batsman.
As for the captaincy, Pietersen to take the one day role is a no-brainer, however I dont want to see him with the test role just yet, I feel it will effect his game too much. For this one match give it to Strauss and then take the time to make a proper decision before the next series which isnt until November rathr than rushing into one at a few hours notice.
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To my mind the problem is all around the ridiculous team of sub standard hangers on pulling big salaries that Vaughan has had to deal with. It must wear anyone down and will have the same effect on the next man. Peter Moores, Hugh Morris, (why have 2 of them?) Who is the blustering old woman who heads up the ECB who never answers a question properly and justifies the mess our game is in. They are the cricket equivalent of the FA. PR / Media men who dictate all the activity. Stilted suits who never accept personal critisicm. When you look at the idiots who hang on to the England team and who the captain has to liaise with you realise how he has done well to last so long!!!. Hope he gets his form back and plays for a few more years. I bet most teams would prefer to play us without him than with him
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MV has been under pressure for not scoring runs while captaining the side but so to will the likes of Strauss, Cook, Key or Bell if they are selected as captain at the moment.
I wouldnt choose KP as my captain as i think it could affect his performances with the bat and his aggressive nature in the way he bats which is essential to his success.
Strauss would be my preference at least for the short term. He has lead the team well before and is well respected member of the dressing room. Cook or even Bell could be possible future captains but both have yet to reach their peak at test match level.
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Vauaghan was a decent captain but it is typically small minded of people to elevate his status because England beat Australia in 2005.
If England's record against all other countries was better then the team might have a higher position in the rankings. Beating Australia doesn't make you champions of the world.
I have said before that England's problem is that they can't play a test match without having the Ashes in mind. This is totally disrespectful to their opponents, and the usual arrogance associated with the current team.
A solution to England's problems might be to scrap the Central Contracts and force players to play for their places through the county system. One of the reasons that England are so inept at ODI's is that the players never play the game for their counties. Same goes for 20/20 as well.
For the Oval test why not get rid of the underperformers and pick a new team all together.
Trescothick
Denly
Key (c)
Joyce
Bopara
Shah
Broad
Read (wk)
Rashid
Tremlett
Jones
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As soon as the last Test ended, I said that three players had to go: Vaughan, Ambrose, Panesar. Vaughan because his batting at present is so abysmal and his captaincy has lost the desire to win (probably affected by his poor form). Ambrose because he gives away too many byes and leg-byes and misses too many catches AND cannot bat. Panesar because he has rarely bowled effectively, even in favourable conditions, and his performance in the field is pathetic; also his batting is so bad, it's a waste of time sending him in. These days EVERY member of an England team should have some ability with the bat.
Listening to most of the TMS broadcasts for this Test series, I get the impression that England don't use a Third Man. If that is the case, didn't his absence result in the record number of leg-byes?
Finally, I'm not impressed with Moores, the coach. A good coach should be able to instil a positive mental attitude in every member of the team beforehand throughout the match. Success requires brains as well as guts. All the players must have the necessary ability to be in the team in the first place!
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It is a real shame to see Vaughan bowing out, what a marvellous player and captain he has been, if somewhat diminished of late. Here's to hoping that he gets back in the team this winter, and gets a hatful of runs with the pressure of captaincy off his back.
As for KP, he is surely not captaincy material. We saw with Flintoff that simply "picking the hero" to be captain does not work. We need someone who maybe doesn't always produce big domineering innings, but can always be trusted to chip in. For me, Strauss is the only option, as he is the most cerebral and astute England player by far, whilst also being fair, honest and personable. KP by contrast would prove a selfish and divisive captain, and would clearly bowl himself too much. The responsibility of captaincy would merely lead to more careless, egotistic shots from KP, but encourage greater pride and confidence in Strauss' more cautious batting. He should also be awarded a place in the ODI side, perhaps slightly lower down the order.
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While I agree that MV was an excellent, astute and intelligent captain, he readily admitted that his mind was shot. It was impossible to carry on in such circumstances.
I suspect that Strauss will be made captain of the Test team, and KP of the one-dayers. In time, as he gets more experience and shows what he is made of, KP could become captain of both. It seems the best solution for the time being.
How we miss Trescothick! Had he not withdrawn from Test cricket, he would have been the obvious choice as captain, as well as providing the contrast and oomph that we need at the top of the innings.
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Well Vaughan had to go, his performances hadn't been good enough. It was like the world cup last year all again, good form in the nets!
He hadn't been contributing enough, and I feel his captaincy was always overrated. In his early successful spell, he missed the odd test debuted by Treschovick and we still managed to win.
Most of his wins have been against weak teams where you get a second chance - the West Indies now (so sad to see their decline) and New Zealand. The series win away against SA was the exception, with the close thought Ashes series too.
The captaincy has got to someone worth their place in the test team, so we can rule out Key. It's either Strauss who has done well before or KP for me.
The captaincy needn't effect a players own performance, certainly Smith for SA seems to maintain a decent average, and obviously Ponting. Gooch for England also performed better when captain, though he wasn't a good captain, the talent available at the time plus a strong W Indies and Australia didn't make it any easier.
The team for the next shouldn't include Harmison but maybe Sidebottom needs a rest, I'd recall Hoggard whose done nothing wrong.
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Geeze, let Monty be captain, but PLEASE please do everything to accommodate Tresco...
We NEED Tresco...
And adios Strauss
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Michael Vaughan made a courageous - and correct - decision to stand down as Captain. Like Nasser Hussain before him he left on his own terms. I hope it proves correct. A in-form Michael Vaughan is an asset to the England side and at 33 still has at least a couple of seasons left in him. He is also right to get away from the Test Arena and clear his head before refocusing at Yorkshire again.
It looks like KP is the new Captain but I am surprised Bell hasn't been mentioned. I don't think he is the right man for the job but I do think he deserves consideration. I would rather Freddie got it. I think it would focus him and he would take to the role in a poacher turned gamekeeper role. I think Prior should take the gloves again whilst Owais Shah should, at long last, get a decent run in the team. Lets also take a look at Harmison and Jones once again. South Africa's quicks on average were 5 mph quicker than the England quicks and that proved to be the difference.
I also think we should stick with Monty - he could be the match winner at The Oval.
With these facts in mind my team for the 4th Test would be:
Strauss
Cook
Shah
Pieterson
Bell
Prior (WK)
Flintoff (Capt)
Broad
Jones
Harmison
Panesar
England would have three quicks with Broad as fourth seamer to take some of the workload from Harmison, Flintoff and Jones.
The batting looks solid down to No.8 and Panesar could be the match winner!
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You're right Bearfrey!
We went to Australia to defend the ashes without three key players - Marcus Trescothick, Simon Jones and Michael Vaughan. Whilst everyone was marveling at the Flintoff heroics (quite rightly), Simon Jones (leading wicket-taker until he was injured) was doing a superb job for his team. Marcus Trescothick had rid himself of the problems he had with Australia and emerged as a great opener, and of course Michael Vaughan 'out-captained' Ricky Ponting.
How we have missed Marcus and Simon - it is to be hoped that we don't miss Michael quite as much............I fear we will.
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If only more English batsman were as selfish as Pietersen and got themselves out as soon as they'd made 94 . . . How much better if he'd put himself under pressure by changing his natural game, blocked and padded up for two and a half hours then got an unplayable delivery or a dodgy umpiring decision and been out for 6.
Pietersen might be a bit one-dimensional in that he's at his best when he's attacking (though he can and sometimes does defend well too) but that doesn't necessarily mean he's selfish . . . his attacking play does mean he gets out to the odd rash shot now and again but it also means he's contributes on average more than 10 runs an innings more than the next best (and presumably, less selfish) English batsman. Remember 2005 when he selfishly scored 150-odd and sealed the Ashes victory . . . how selfish can one man get.
If Vaughan had been as selfish as Pietersen in the last couple of years, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
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We'll all know the captain soon enough...KP I expect.
It was right of Vaughan to step down as he needs time to hopefully compete for a place in the side against Australia and those people who think the Australian test series is over rated just don't understand the history of the game.
Michael Vaughan will always be up there with the really good bats and captains and as he said perhaps the best batting is yet to come.
The captaincy is a hard one, no outstanding candidate. I'd go with Strauss and have Cook as vice-captain.
Choosing Peiterson would not be wrong, but it would be a stab in the dark.
It will take some time to sort out the new England and it will be interesting to see if Collingwood plays at the Oval, clearly he deserves to. I'd choose Harmison to add to the attack to replace Vaughan! Someone above said you have to score more runs to win. Actually in test matches you have to take 20 wickets and score more runs.
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Just like to add that you shouldn't always choose your best or most experienced player as captain. Neither Boycott, Botham, Stewart or Gower were particularly good in the role, with all their knowledge and experience of the game.
Captaincy is about more that.
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There is an obvious plot being enacted to elevate the status of English Cricket in the eyes of other cricketing countries.
Why have you all missed this? Particularly you, Aggers?
First, name Darren Pattinson as the next captain. No longer a stranger to International cricket, he is multi-cultural and will emerge as one of the leading batsmen of our time. The selectors will have noticed this, in spite of the fact that the man's talents are being ignored and he is currently being disguised as a bowler.
Next, appoint one of the other wicket keepers to replace Vaughan. Doesn't really matter who, but he will stand behind Tiny Tim and help with trying to stop byes, leg-byes and so on. Call him the Long Stop.
These actions will confirm what our opponents have been saying or a while about our Management, Selectors and Coach.
Seriously, let's not forget Michael Vaughan's shrewd captaincy and tactical brilliance, together with his polite and cheerful attitude to all interviewers. He will be missed as a captain, let's look forward to seeing him flourish again as a peerless batsman.
In Cricket Heaven, Vaughan and Gower sharing a double century stand in Sydney against a side including Lillee, Merv Hughes and McGrath. .
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vaughan's captaincy, and overwhelming calmness during the game is a huge testimant to him as a cricketer and a person.
as for kp being the favourite to take over as captain, yes the likelihood is he will be an aggressive captain, i would like to also hope that he would want a team similarly built to his own personality...this to me would hopefully mean the inclusion of simon jones, steve harmison etc.
personally i would love to see alistair cook be given the captaincy, he is young with a mature head on his shoulders, he has a great tempermant. as for not being a regular in the one day side, i think given the chance he could be the new trescothick at the top of the order...he has a solid technique and could be moulded into scoring more match winning contributions.
andy flower was one of the greats at manoevuring a field around, surely he could pass this onto cook and help him develop his game further
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Inconsistent strategy, inconsistent policies, inconsistent team. Same old England.
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Why do everyone on hear suddenly believe Robert Key will be the answer. He is a better than average county journeyman who is having 1 good season and suddenly he is a walking god.I remember the total fiasco of poor Chris Cowdrey who was thrown into exactly the same situation.He cannot come in and expect to instantly command command the respect of the other England players who have had to fight through the last 2-3 years.Before you say it,drop the rest anyway wake up its a big jump from county to test level.Anyone who has played any level of sport Knows that.Its like making your "2nd" 11 captain, first team captain overnight because the 2nds are performing better in the local mickey mouse league.Put your brains back in.If Key gets into the test team and performs consistently at the top level then he could become captain but not now!!!
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And so KP is captain! Great news for england!Now they can finally compete!
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valladolidman, sush! KP is captain! great news!
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thank heavens common sense prevails.Actually appointed the 1 man in the camp that the rest of the team wanted!! Actually at this point a most important consideration.Be interesting to see what Moores does now.The 1 man that he didn't want!!Also the selectors have learnt from the Freddie fiasco when they picked the popular choice from outside of the team rather than Strauss who was the teams choice.
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Vaughan, in my opinion, is not only the finest England captain for many, many years, but arguably the best in the world. Tactically astute, one of the most likeable characters in the game, and critically for a captain, able to get the best out of the players around him. It is this last factor that I believe will be most sorely missed.
He should have been backed by the media, selectors and fans in the knowledge that he remains the best man for the job.
I'm not going to enter into the discussions of who should replace him. I think it is sad that it has to be considered.
I sincerely hope that it was 100% Vaughan's decision and believe he should be the first name on the touring party team sheet.
English cricket appears to be heading in the wrong direction at the moment, it is trying to appeal in the way football does. Take, for example, the hideous extra-white whites. They look like school boys, or someone from the local village who doesn't play often so just borrowed a white work shirt. Back to basics, high morals, old-fashioned values and Vaughan as captain.
Good luck Mr Vaughan. I don't believe OBEs should have been awarded to the team following the Ashes win, but you are without question deserving of yours.
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So Bopara comes in for Vaughan. IS that the best they could do? I'd opt for Shah, but i guess bopara offers an extra bowling option!
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Many people have described Pietersen as playing for himself and egocentric. Of what exactly does this selfishness consist? Scoring fast and playing attacking shots one assumes. By that token Bradman, Gilchrist and Viv Richards were three of the most selfish players of all time and couldn't possibly be considered as captain. The 'selfish' tag is usually applied to batsmen like Boycott and Kallis who guard their own wicket and consider their own average before the team's needs.
An example cited of KP's selfishness is his dismissal for 94 on Friday. Yet the ultimate "team man" Collingwood played exactly the same shot later successfully, a shot dubbed by TMS as it's "Champagne Moment". What hypocrisy! As a general rule English Cricket blames its defeats on the most successful player for not succeeding all the time. Australian Cricket by contrast blames those who do not come up to the mark and ruthlessly discards them.
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275. At 1:13pm on 04 Aug 2008, james1504 wrote:
Vaughan, in my opinion, is not only the finest England captain for many, many years, but arguably the best in the world. Tactically astute, one of the most likeable characters in the game, and critically for a captain, able to get the best out of the players around him. It is this last factor that I believe will be most sorely missed.
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Lies mate, Ponting is the best, say what ya like. I'm south african, and graeme smith is second to ponting when it comes leading. May I remind u that Smith and Vaughan started out at pretty much the same time. Compare records and you'll see where vaughan ranks, Stephen Fleming was better than vaughan. So i'd rate MV at no. 4
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Joining the debate late, I didn't want to comment. Now the selection(s) have been made, I guess I can.
I'm not against Pieterson as captain, but it doesn't fill me with confidence. It's hard to say how it will affect his game, hopefully in a good way. I sincerely wish him and England all the best and will support them without question. He is, generally, respected as a player, but will other teams respect him as a person and a captain? Time will tell.
Bopara as Vaughan's replacement? I hope he proves me wrong but I just don't see it.
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I think KP will make a success of england! He seems to have the shoulders for it and i expect the team to rally around him, all except for Fred. He might be upset! He'd probably of loved to have been given the mantle once again. Egg head!
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Don't agree with bopara's selection and another reason as to why i'm baffled is that ambrose has been absolutely useless. A wicket keeper who can't score runs is a travesty! Prior averages 40 in tests, why overlook him? SAD!!!!
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278. At 1:20pm on 04 Aug 2008, ChelseaSaffer wrote:
Lies mate, Ponting is the best, say what ya like. I'm south african, and graeme smith is second to ponting when it comes leading. May I remind u that Smith and Vaughan started out at pretty much the same time. Compare records and you'll see where vaughan ranks, Stephen Fleming was better than vaughan. So i'd rate MV at no. 4
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Interesting argument, just a shame you had to call my opnion a lie! I was voicing an opinion which was why I wrote, "in my opinion". Incidentally, your argument (whilst interesting) is fundamentally flawed. You can't "compare records" between Vaughan and Smith to claim Smith is better than Vaughan, then say Fleming was better than Vaughan! Whose record is better MV or SF?
It's not as straightforward you claim. Australia are, and have been for years, the strongest team by far. That doesn't make Ponting the best captain. Of the 4 you mention, I would place him at no. 4 mainly because I don't think he is nearly professional enough and has a tendancy to spit the dummy.
Smith - quality without question. Has the mental toughness and leads from the front. One of the best innings I've ever seen to win the series. Has had his childish moments, but has matured and proved himself despite some unpopularity. No. 2.
Fleming - Was sorry to see him retire. Vaughan's equal on maturity, popularity and professionalism. Worked wonders with a weaker team and deserves enormous credit. Superb cricket brain. Possibly equal no. 2 but for very different reasons.
Vaughan - I believe combines the best of the three. Tactically astute, a great advertisement for the game, has got the best out of his players. Still my no. 1.
All opinion, no lies.
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ChelseaSaffer how can you say that Freddie wouldn't welcome the decision??? With his past antics, and the question of his fitness, he had no chance of getting the role back!!
That having been said - it WAS noticeable that he certainly tried to fire the lads up last week!! I wouldn't mind him getting the vice-captain's armband (so to speak). I agree with previous comments on Kevin Pieterson - There is absolutely NOTHING to suggest that he cannot continue in his commanding way - time, of course, will tell.... But one thing _IS for sure that he will not be tinkering with the field every few balls to prove what an astute captain he is - Let's hope that he can bat his way with the selectors and not blandly accept their forced personnel suggestions!!
HunKs
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Interesting argument, just a shame you had to call my opnion a lie! I was voicing an opinion which was why I wrote, "in my opinion".
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I apologise if any harm was done. I respect your opinion but i'm sure there are many people incl. english who would never go so far as to say that MV is/was the best modern day test captain. Sure he was good but the best, have to disagree!
As for Fred, he definitely seemed fired up, but I don't think he'd of make a good captain neither would he have approved of KP appointment. Just my honest opinion! KP and Fred are both hotheads!
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chelseasaffer just because you dont agree with someones opinion you cant call them a liar its called freedom of speech that millions have fought and died for over the years if you dont want to listen to others opinions dont read a blog
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A dreadful waste of a very good captain.
Boycott must be happy coz his constant self opinionated comments that only he knows best have driven the man from the job. Boycott never got the job long term and he just could not stand to see another Yorkie do it well.
KP will do a good job if given time and player support, you know he will be trying but is the appointment a bit to early for him. However who else was there??
And very disappointing to see the same wicket keeper in the squad but not for the 20/20 what message does this send out?
Bowlers have consistently let the team down and yet we see no new names Anderson and Sidebottom of whom I am a great fan are tired and need to have 2 or 3 county games to get back to their best. Harmison needs to be given one last chance pace is the key, Fletcher was correct on this at least, and the way Flintoff made chances and took wickets is further proof.
Harmison, Flintoff, Broad, and either Jones (if fit enough) or a young fastie, Sheck from Notts or Patterson if he was considered good enough for one try ….
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It seems to me that there is a huge amount of opinion on this subject, and that a lot of it is misguided. There appear to be a large number of people out there who think they know best. Here's a fact: they don't. Nobody knows for certain. The fact as they stand are pretty self-explanatory:
1) Vaughan was not scoring sufficient runs to be worth a place in the side.
2) The only viable candidates as replacements were Strauss, Pietersen, and Cook.
3) Strauss does not often play in ODIs.
4) Cook is very young, and is still learning the international game.
Looking at the evidence, therefore, it would appear that the selectors have gone for the most logical solution. Pietersen has previously captained the side in an ODI, and, by all accounts, made a pretty good fist of it. OK, so occasionally he gets out in "selfish" ways, but he's not the first England captain to be caught on the hook, and he certainly won't be the last. Give the poor chap a fair crack of the whip, and then we'll see whether he's any good or not. Regardless of half-baked crackpot theories, there is actually no way of knowing how well it will go until it happens, so stop having your kittens and let him get on with it.
On the subject of Michael Vaughan, though, I find it somewhat bizarre that so many people appear to think Graeme Smith is a good captain. He is ultra-conservative with field placings, and his tactics at times border on the bizarre. Vaughan was universally regarded as one of the finest captains around (and he was certainly better than Ponting, regardless of what anyone might say). It is certainly not beyond the realms of possibility that Pietersen might do a reasonable job as well...we just don't know yet...
I think half the problem with people in this country is that they don't actually support the team. Being a sports fan in England appears to mean that when the team is winning you support them, and when they are losing, you lambast them. Not only that, but it also appears that you have to start on respected members of the press as well!
All you who are sounding off about it being a disgrace and blaming the press, and the media and all and sundry should really take a good look at the way you behave when it comes to the England team. They need your support, not your suggestions. Leave the running of the team to those who are paid to do it.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.
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ChelseaSaffer - no harm done! Think we could have many a good discussion over a beer! I agree with you about Bopara, and sort of agree about Fred. Fred is a great bowler (not great allrounder at present), but not a captain. He can still lead in the way he has, and talk with his bowling.
Thanks for the support coopandy, but a bit harsh! I don't think it was intended the way it read!
Time will tell about KP. I'm not sure he has the qualities of a great captain, but maybe (big maybe) he'll mature into it.
My final thought for the day - a great test match won by a great innings. I would have liked to see the final test battled out with the same (ish) teams (Steyn might come in for... err... someone...)
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james1504 wrote:
My final thought for the day - a great test match won by a great innings. I would have liked to see the final test battled out with the same (ish) teams (Steyn might come in for... err... someone...)
Everybody is saying this, but, what would have happened if the Umpire had actually opened his eyes and given him out on 85?
What I really do NOT understand is how these sort of travesties are overlooked or even ignored - Hey, it's just not Cricket!!
HunKs
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I see MV made 18 fifties and 18 centuries, very unusual in this day and age. Fifties are usually more! Look at any batsman!
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Cometh the hour, cometh the man
(or something like that)
Sadly, not surprised at all by the hounding out of Michael Vaughan - there is an old song that says... "You're Gonna Miss Me When I'm Gone"... Vaughan was a very fine captain and brought rigour and clarity to 'team' England. But IMO, the divided captaincy experiment doesn't work. Team players serving two masters, etc...
Pietersen's ascension to the England captaincy is something I never thought I'd see. If KP does succeed as a captain, I fear that even then he won't win over the minority who just have a 'thing against the guy' no matter what (no names mentioned).
Also a few posters on this thread (esp. Bearfrey #260 and neonSockMonkey #262) have read my mind - might Trescothick be persuaded back as vice-captain in the renovated line-up? Or even just to bat again?
All the very best to KP. Just be honest - as your predecessor was - and do your best for yourself and your country.
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Dear English Fans...
Vaughan might be a legend for you folks because he won the ashes..He was a great batsman for England fans.But for the rest of the world he is just average player.He will not be able to walk into the middle of the top 3-4 teams in the world. His series wins were agaist back to back series against West Indies when they were at the lowest point. If england plays now they will be thrashed. Same goes against the New Zealand. Had they had bond England would have been sent packing. Ashes England had almost the best pace attack in the world with young and enrgetic Freddi and Jones doing the magic.
It is only freddi and Piterson who will walk into the playing 11 of the top4 teams are even for the matter of being respected..rest all are just adding up numbers to the team. Threshko was also respected but he no longer plays for the country.
Strauss i have seen him captain and he was good. But his place is not gauranteed in the ODS's...
Freddi or Pete willbe the only wise option England needs players who do the extra yard not the sophesticated guys when the team is down and out.
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There are two things that would make Pietersen's appointment as captain a sound, rational decision:-
1. That reports of his character are correct, but, despite great reservations about the ability of someone like this to captain successfully, there is no one else in or close to the team whom the selectors consider would bring more to the captaincy.
2. That reports that he is at the extreme end of the narcissism spectrum are wrong. That his view of himself, the world, and their interaction are driven by no more than healthy self-esteem.
Every other argument, it seems to me, is driven by the modern fallacy of judgment which surmises that not being exactly able to quantify the likelihood of conclusions means that all conclusions should be ranked as equally likely.
So we are given the suggestion that he will act as an inspiration to the other players as being no less likely than that they will be put off by the extreme self-focus which actually prevents him mentally from considering anyone else's performance or wellbeing to be of any importance.
We're enticed with the idea that he'll grow into the role; that the responsibility of the captaincy will cause him to become a more rounded personality more capable of being an effective leader. And we're supposed to believe that this is just as likely as that he will remain fundamentally the same character that he is now. Just name me any occasion in history when a rampant narcissist has developed a genuine social focus as a result of assuming power.
We heard all this wishful thinking about remote and unlikely possibilities only last year, when someone equally implausible for a role was being steamrollered into it by the unthinking. One G Brown Esq. Anyone remember?
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I am very sad for MV. He was a team player who did his best. Regretably Pieterson, who is a good player when on form, has not shown 'team spirit'. "That is the way I play" is hardly an excuse for playing irresponsibly in the last two Test Matches. Listening to the second Test in France, one had to wonder who's side was he on?
To be honest, there is no-one in the current team who can hold a candle to MV as a captain. Mike Brearley,whom I watched as captain of Middlesex and England, was as per MV, an intelligent man who did his best with what he was given.
It is time that the "coaches" and selectors stood up to be counted. MV has taken the fall but the performance of the batmen has been very poor overall. Moreover, the bowlers have been uninspiring (with the exception of Stuart Broad, who can bat a bit).
It is depressing to envisage the England team that will lose the Ashes next year.I lost interest in International Cricket 1982-2002. I expect I am going to lose interest again which is sad: there is nothing I enjoy more than listening to "Blowers" on LW/Digital.
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Dear Excellencefirst,
Are you REALLY comparing Kevin Pietersen with Gordon Brown?!!!
Yours,
D Miliband
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I can't believe how personal some of the comments on this blog are. Jonathan Agnew was a good cricketer who I remember mainly for breaking Mike Brearley's arm in the nets, if I remember rightly. He doesn't deserve some of the abuse he has received. By all means disagree with him, but there's no need to be so aggressive!
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brainswithguts: excellent comments earlier.
I've been wondering for a while now what the fuss is about regarding Monty Panesar.
It's teeth gnashingly embarrassing watching him field and unless the conditions are 100% suited he never shows enough variation to tie up one end at the very least.
Also can people please stop championing Steve Harmison for a recall there's no point if he wont travel further than Kent !!
It's a shame that what happened over the weekend coincided with Ramps getting his 100th ton, a major achievement that will get less column inches than it deserves.
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'NightRider' - you say there is only 1 player who can be a certainty on the teamsheet for all 3 forms of the game! - have u heard of a guy called Flintoff???!!!! are u saying that he's not a certainty, because he's our best player. I agree that there aren't many players that can be certain of their place in the 11 for all forms of the game (infact, that's just 2 - which isn't a good sign!) but KP isn't the only 1, that's my point!
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I have to say, I could see it coming. That rather petulant interview with Jonathan Agnew on the Today prog last week. Obviously the lack of form and defeat against South Africa didn’t do any good. But overall it seems to have been the pressure of the job that finally took its toll. This is at least the second England captain we have lost to ‘burn out’.
People should be worried. There is no way on earth a sporting person should be forced to an emotional edge such that he breaks down in a press conference as did the admirable Vaughan yesterday. No country had been invaded. No murder committed. If this kind of scene has become the norm then we as a nation need to address our priorities.
That was a bit heavy, wasn’t it? Totally out of character.
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Comment 296 : bearfrey
"Are you REALLY comparing Kevin Pietersen with Gordon Brown"
Er ... no. There are two similarities I'm portraying:-
1. Both Brown and Pietersen appear to have histories and characters that no amount of rational thought would suggest are ideally suited for the roles to which they have been appointed.
2. At the time of each of their appointments there has been a great deal of positive comment about how they might be expected to perform; comment that is derived from thought that rationally would be placed at the end of the spectrum that is wishful, rather than profound.
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'ChelseaSaffer' - sorry mate but I have to disagree with u about Prior - yes, he can bat very well but if he continues (as before) to drop loads of chances then how many runs is that gonna cost us???!!! possibly quite a lot - depends which batsman he drops. particularly so if it's a top batsman like Ponting or Kallis. I've seen it before, a basic drop by the keeper and it's cost us maybe 100-200 runs. My personal opinion is that we should ALWAYS pick the best keeper (I'm led to believe that this is Foster) and his batting can always be improved by the batting coach, if necessary.
By all means consider Prior as a batsmen (only) but not as the keeper. That's why we should've stuck with Russell and just left Stewie to open the batting.
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The comments on Pietersen being South African are pointless. He is already an established member of the side so therefore he should be considered like any other England player. I'm not saying it is right or wrong to pick a foreign player at all, but that decision was made a while ago.
He will either rise to the challenge and be excellent or he will be a disaster. I wonder how soon the tabloids will try and destroy him?
Pete Moores and his "collect ten tokens from the back of crisp packets and become a selector" crew have to go.
Bopara instead of Broad? I don't understand. Broad will get better and better. Yes i know he's expensive, but can you see Bopara doing much? I can't see him bowling or batting any better.
MV, you are a star. Thank you so much for 2005.
Jonathon, any plans to retire?
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Dear Bloggers, No post today. Frankly, the level of debate here has reached such purile proportions that it isn't worth the time and effort. The nadir being that some idiots have published that I was responsible for Vaughan resigning! Well, thanks for giving me that level of influence - but don't you think that Michael might just have reached that decision by himself?! Was it my fault that he hasn't been scoring any runs? Don't think so - and I am afraid that having to perform consistently at the highest level is a pre-requisite for international sportsmen. It is a pressure that goes with the territory and if you fail, someone else takes your place. That's sport.
As for the comments about 'the media'. I suggest you readpost 47. There, somebody hiding behind a nicknme, has slagged off KP, Andy Flower and Peter Moores - life time cricketers all - before slagging off the media too...what hypcorisy. Don't you see that by writing here, you are ALL the media and, even worse, you can hurl criticism and abuse around without any responsibility because you do so anonymously.
It's a good forum, this, when run properly, and I don't expect everyone to agree with everything I write. But what I do put into my blog is opinion based on known fact. No one was to know that Collingwood was also to resign, which completely moved the goal posts as far as this appointment was concerned. If you want to continue sensible debate, that's fine by me - but take a deep breath before slinging insults around and why not try writing your opinions under your real names - they just might be taken a little more seriously.
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Response to #47. An Australian journalist promoting Shane Warne as captain of Australia? The greatest commentator of them all? R Benaud?
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sorry 305 - this is a copy of a post on the other blog - post 47 on today's blog by Olly Brett is what I was referring to
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Ricky Ponting will be upset not to get a go at winning the Ashes against Vaughan.
KP's appointment could go either way, but probably was the only option.
England's main problem is the balance of the team, mainly because we havent found a true replacement for Graham Thorpe to glue the innings together and give it some stability - if KP fails at the present, were stuffed. Even in 2005, we were batting by the seat of our pants. Weve also missed some aggression at the top of the innings since Trescothick's departure. Sort those two positions out and things might look up.
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Michael Vaughan is a fine cricketer. There is plenty of top cricket yet to come from his bat. With a bit of rest he should be back in the playing eleven. Best wishes to him.
Dr. Cajetan Coelho
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There's been an alarming amount of crud written on here about captaincy. It echoes the still greater volume of crud produced daily about football managers.
The truth is that cricket captains have about a 10th, and football managers a 100th, of the influence over proceedings as is usually supposed.
Sure, the cricket captain's role in picking the right strategy and field-placings, bowling the right bowlers, and managing the players' mood is crucially important. But please stop all this rubbish about 'dealing with the media', 'building "Team England"' and 'playing mind-games with the opposition'. The only people who attach any important to any of these things are - precisely - the media. We should be smart enough not to swallow it all whole.
Look at Steve Waugh. He was good at being captain, and probably some distance better than I would have been. But even I wouldn't have done badly with the players he had. Unless, of course, I'd got distracted with 'dealing with the media'...
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Hey Agnew - stop being such a baby. When was the last time you ever took any responsibility for your actions? If you don't like the criticism then get another job. See it cuts both ways.
It's ironic isn't it - you have no problem with criticising the work of Vaughan, Pieterson, Fletcher, but you don't like it when people criticise your work. Well that's life and as a writer you should expect criticism - afterall it goes with the territory.
You post an opinion, and we as readers then give you our opinions on your opinions. So just as Vaughan is fair-game to you, you are fair-game to us. You really should get with the new media and stop being so precious about being criticised by bloggers.
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MV should not have had a chance to resign,he shoud have been sacked. In my opinion, he didn't justify his place in the side anymore. He was (is) a good captain but not in the Brearley class and his batting has been woeful for a long perod - excepting a century against a decidedly average NZ bowling attack. Moores and co didnt make the tough call and for me, that's what they get paid the bucks for. MV great guy but if you had been born Australian, you would have been gone a long time ago. Therein lies the difference between a hierachy dedicated to winning and one that papers over the cracks.
Re: KP's appt as Capt. As usual, a cop out. This idea that one Capt should be there for all forms of the game and that KP is the only one guaranteed that place:
1) I was reading not so long ago how the split captaincy was working so well. Apparently not. So why did we wait until someone resigned in order to change it?
2) This represents a complete U-Turn in strategy. Not one that was planned and actioned but one that was handed to the management by someone else's actions after yet another series defeat. When are our cricket management team going to understand that management is all about forming a strategy and implementing it? It's not about knee jerk reactions.
KP may be the answer - who knows? But it won't be on the back of any real idea of his suitability or not. Like me, everyone is just taking a punt.
I feel sorry for Strauss. Dropped as skipper after winning a series and not considered again since. Arguably his batting has not been the same since either. Nice man-management Team England. That's what I call torpedoing the life raft.
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oh dear. i really feel for Strauss. surely it's a no-brainer to make Strauss captain of the tests and see how KP does with the one-day team?
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"You really should get with the new media and stop being so precious about being criticised by bloggers."
To be fair Mr Agnew has been pretty good with the new media, engaging far more than many 'bloggers', who effectively write their usual articles and pay no heed to the responses.
His most recent responses are very dissappointing, but hopefully it can be put down just to tiredness and the personal nature of a few of the posts. My fear is that he has revealed his true, apparently contemptous, feelings about blogs and those of us who post on them.
It would be a shame if that is the case or if he really has had enough of all this as I've enjoyed his blogs. Maybe, like Vaughan, he just need as a break from bloging after a busy summer?
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Aggers - I understand your disquiet with some of the posting, but it is far better to rise above it. Those with a brain who are reading and writing here through a love of the game and interest in debate do just that. As soon as a post descends into the personal or ridiculous, I move on and don't dignify it with further reading or a response.
Post 290 (HunKs) - Human error is part of the game. Maybe Smith should have been given out, but how many decisions can we say that about, many during "great" innings (Mike Atherton caught at slip(!) off Donald - not during the great innings, but relevant all the same)? Technology isn't always effective. My opinion (note, opinion) is that umpires should be given absolute respect by players (and fans of the game), and that replays of close calls should not be shown in the grounds. Players must accept umpiring decisions (Monty?) and get on with the game. Any discent should not be tolerated.
I believe captaincy to be almost as specialist a part of cricket as wicketkeeping (and I've done both). Both should be specialist roles, and the idea of a batsman who keeps is ridiculous. Stop looking for a Gilchrist, he was an exceptional cricketer and a once in a lifetime. Look at Boucher, a specialist keeper whose batting has developed through his career. If he hadn't been a good keeper, he would have been (rightly) replaced.
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26 wins out of 51 is an outstanding record.
MV's second innings as captain has been a big disappointment but it's a miracle that he even returned to the playing field after suffering debilitating injuries. He spent almost 2 years in the wilderness and it looked like his England career was over.
Well, at least he made a come back and had a chance to represent England again.
It would have been easier for him to ride off into the sunset and milk the glory of his achievements forever but instead, he decided to come back even at the risk of badly exposing himself on the field. His desire to represent England probably made him oblivious to the obvious risk he was taking.
It was painful for us fans watching MV struggle for runs;just imagine how painful it must have been for the man himself. Not so long ago he was a premier batsman and supreme commander of his troupes. Now reduced to helplessness, he tried and tried but couldn't lift his batting from the depths it had plunged to. Sport is cruel. It turns heroes into zeros within no time.
Win or lose, playing with integrity and conducting yourself with dignity is the hallmark of a true sportsman. On that account, no one can say that MV fell short.
Congrats, Michael on an outstanding job as the most successful English captain.
It's a shame fate was cruel to you and nipped your career in the bud.
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Re Thursday lunch time discussion. I have heard no mention of the responsibilities of the other selectors and of the manager in Vaughan’s resignation.
I know it was his decision but was it not clearly inevitable and could it not have been avoided or at least been made less traumatic?
I wonder if two games ago they could have arranged with Vaughan for him to make a positive and upbeat announcement to the effect that with the agreement of the selectors he wanted time to return to the county to get himself back into peak form before the long Indian tour, with say Peterson or Strauss acting as stand in captain for the remainder of the current series. That would have taken some pressure off Vaughan and given him time to rebuild form for India where his experience of the conditions could be of great benefit. If he didn’t regain his form – and he now might not have time to do so - then the stand in captain would have gained vital experience and another prospective number 3 batsman would also have gained experience. And for Vaughan his departure would at least have been smoother and more graceful.
Vaughan’s a good bloke. He deserved better advice and assistance to manage the situation in a more positive and upbeat manner. Crying in front of the cameras is not the best way to rebuild confidence.
Maybe the above alternatives would have been worse but my gut feel is that I wouldn’t employ any of the selectors or the manager in any man management roles in any of my businesses. I expect managers and senior colleagues to recognise and anticipate a self evident problem in advance and take positive steps to mitigate it. It’s usually better for both the train and the wall if you apply the brake before they meet. Waiting for it to happen and hoping to pick up the pieces is rarely the best option.
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