Pressure mounting on the England captain
In returning to the tried and tested format of six batsmen and four bowlers, England are hoping to give the impression of bolstering their batting line-up.
Tim Ambrose batting at number six at Headingley simply did not look right - he does not yet have a presence at the crease - and although they could have restored Andrew Flintoff to that position, they hope that four bowlers will be enough here.
That could change at The Oval, in the middle of a crucial fortnight for England, especially so for their captain Michael Vaughan, on whom the pressure to score runs is steadily mounting.
He seems relaxed enough in public, but he knows that no captain is fireproof, especially when his team is losing.
Add loss of form to that and the situation can quickly become serious and, having scored only two hundreds and four fifties in his last 29 Test innings, Vaughan's predicament is starting to have a worryingly permanent look to it.
He is fortunate that there are no obvious rivals at present - Andrew Strauss is feeling his way back, Paul Collingwood is also short of runs and the only real contender, Kevin Pietersen, needs to be left alone to concentrate on playing big innings.
There might be some raised eyebrows at Stuart Broad's omission from the final XI, particularly after his lovely batting at Headingley. But his bowling looked tired and rather lacklustre there after the marathon stint in the field at Lord's, and England are understandably nervous about playing him here as one of only four bowlers.
I suspect the same concern was raised about Steve Harmison, and with Andrew Flintoff now able to add some aggression and Ryan Sidebottom a different angle, this is the best balance for now.
But England will probably need to turn to five bowlers again in the near future, and so will face the same conundrum as at Headingley. This is what puts Ambrose's neck on the line here as England continue their five-year search for Alec Stewart's successor.
Update by blog editor at 0915 on 30 July: Click here for Vaughan's response to Aggers (it's well worth a listen)
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I think Vaughns days could well be numbered. While he looks fantastic when hes in, hes incredibly vulnerable to even a decent ball early on. The team selections recently aren't helping either, the national side has become a boys club with the same people playing regardless. To bring back collingwood straight away rather than giving someone like Shah a chance is pretty poor, and this kind of selection has made this Englad team very average over the last couple of years. There are good players out there in the county game but they will never get a chance under the current regime.
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Totally agree Aggers. If Vaughan fails to post a couple of decent scores in the remaining two test matches I cannot see him remaining in the team or touring during the winter.
Leaving out Harmison is the right decision as I really think he is fortunate to be back in the fold.
The one guy who has been hard done by is Broad who has a far better attitude to the game than Harmison and if we do go back to five bowlers for the Oval then surely he should get the nod.
Finally, I feel that another poor performance here from Ambrose with gloves and bat should warrant a recall for Prior.
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Back to tried and tested. Probably a good decision, but it just shows what a complete shambles the Headingley selection was!
But that's water under the bridge.
Broad has the qualities of a true all-rounder, if properly nurtured, and I hope his omission will be seen as "seniority trumps youth" for the time being. Over the medium term, he may very well become first choice over Freddie, if the latter does not return to his full abilities.
I remain unconvinced of our keeper choice. Ambrose back at 8 is more appropriate than 6, but Prior remains the better keeper-batsman in my view and should not have been dropped.
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I dont understand why england would include Sidebottom instead of Harmisson.
England cant bowl teams out twice im a match, they simply dont have the fire power to do so.
My team would look like this.
Strauss
Cook
Vaughn (C)
Bell
Pietersen
Collingwood
Prior
Flintoff
Anderson
Harmison
Panesar
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It seems unfair on England and Vaughn to be judged this way. Ironically, if England had performed poorly in the first innings of test I, to scrape home with a draw, the tone would be different...
Reality is still what it was before the series: avoiding a whitewash is the objective for a decent team against probably the best test team in the world.
But UK media always manage to become the 12th man - the opposition's 12th man, that is... Thanks guys.
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The biggest problem for England so far this series has been their inability to take 20 SA wickets. Dropping a bowler is surely not the answer (especially with Broad looking in better form than Collingwood). And surely there must be some concerns about over-bowling Freddie if England spend another 2 or more days in the field.
Furthermore, since England have opted for six batsmen surely Prior, who has been in supreme form with the bat for Sussex, is a better choice than Collingwood.
A final thought - Sidebottom seems to have cemented himself into the team. Is he a possible future captain?
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On reflection I tend to agree with you that this probably is the most balanced team for now. The pitch had the final word (as it always should) and so Harmison shelved for now. More than the pitch though, winning the toss and making the right decision will be crucial. Vaughn lost the last two so hopefully......!!!!? I think Vaughn will come good here because Steyn won't be playing. I'm also particularly hoping Panesar comes to the party. He could win this one for England I feel.
South Africans will be going in for the kill though and certainly a must not lose match for England. (I think that is more the reason Collingwood comes back to be honest).
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Vaughan has to start scoring again, otherwise he might as well bat at 10. I think Bell should move back to 3 and let Vaughan come in at 4, may reduce the pressure a bit.
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Can't understand why Harmison has been left out - or why Jones was not named in the squad. While neither of these two should have returned to the squad by default (as Flintoff did in the last match) they have done enough at county level to make a strong case for inclusion, and on form, they are proven test-quality bowlers who have succeeded at the highest level. It may have escaped the selectors' attention, but England have been unable to get through the SA batting line-up since the first innings at Lord's. Sidebottom's control and possible swing will be a big help, but if Harmison is bowling well, he's a quality bowler, and I'd have had him in the side rather than Anderson, who could easily go for alot of runs at Edgbaston. And it's not as though Collingwood has returned to form, is it?
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England go into this test with only two wicket-taking seamers, Flintoff and Anderson. As good as they are, that's too much to ask. Sidebottom, an honest and accurate medium-pace bowler, is never going to trouble the Saffers, who (unlike New Zealand, whom Sidebottom terrorised) have shown the patience and technique to score at 2.5 an over and slowly build up big scores against accurate but unthreatening bowling of Sidebottom's kind.
And why has Collingwood been brought back? Recent months have shown that, whilst he tried hard, he does not have the technique for test cricket (except on very flat pitches). Broad may not be bowling well, but he's in better nick as a batsman than Collingwood. Bizarre.
This is the worst, most negative team they could have chosen from the squad. The Saffers will be looking forward to an easy victory.
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I'm a great believer, Jonathan, that you only change a team when you can strength it. Any side can get injuries, that's unavoidable. But otherwise, you have to think to yourself, does this change strengthen the side.
Vaughan has struggled for runs of late. I'm not so sure that his captaincy is all that it was a couple of years back, either. But again, you have to ask, who could be given the job that is better?
There is no queue of talented county captains, at least from where I'm sitting, to take Vaughan's place. In my view, if he stays fit, Vaughan keeps the job up to the end of the 2009 Ashes series.
After that, there is a good chance that a change will come in both coach and captain. It's a certainty if we lose to Australia.
In the meantime, England are not going to drop Vaughan. He is the only guy we have out there who has taken on the Australians and won. They probably respect him more as captain than we do here!
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If Ambrose is only up to batting at 8, we may as well pick James Foster. He's easily good enough to bat at 8 and is a far safer keeper.
In reality Prior is probably the answer that will allow five bowlers.
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Aggers you make sense my friend but you fail to make the connection that there is a ready made captain and number 3 waiting to step right into Vaughan's shoes.......Robert Key. A superb tactician and much more reliable and consistent batter. England haven't got the "balls" to do both at once but it would provide the shake up required. I am an Essex man too so am not biased at all but this seems so obvious to me.
Secondly what has Paul Collingwood done to get himself back in the line up ? All this rubbish about being the hardest worker and most patriotic doesn't make up for his obvious limitations as a test batsman.
On Wednesday , England will once again come "hopping out" eating carrots at the fall of the 4th wicket. I really can't see how we can compete at all with the side we;ve picked. I hope i'll be made to eat my words but you know where you heard it first !!
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I'm a little bemused by Agger's constant sniping at Vaughan's place in the side. In the 4 series prior to this one, England's top 6 have performed as follows:-
Pietersen (23 inns),1256 runs at averages of 66,57,43,46
Vaughan (21), 942 runs at 64,49,20,50
Cook (23) 929 at 56,37,32,28
Strauss (23) 919 at 24,35,45,66
Collingwood (23) 832 at 59,32,40,10
Bell (22) 712 at 45,31,50,15
I'm struggling to see why the finger is pointed at Vaughan rather than the others, with the exception of Pietersen. Vaughan is the only credible captain at the moment. Sure, he needs some runs but are we really saying that if someone makes a century that makes everything all right. Bell's 199 is a case in point. Does that score cement his place and wipe out the last 2 year's underachievement?
ALL the batsment need to contribute much more consistently than they have done, as does the wicket keeper. They need to give our average bowling attack the chance to take the 20 wickets required.
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Ah cosy club England.
They leave Collingwood out because he hasn't scored anywhere near the weight of runs required in Test matches recently and his 1st class form for Durham has been abysmal.
1 test match later, no 1st class cricket for Collingwood so no improvement in his form and he's back in the team.
Can't have anything to do with the fact his the skippers mate can it?? that and the fact Vaughan is big mates with Giles means this England team will be a closed shop for a very, very long time because Vaughan will 'advise' Giles the selector who he'd like in the squad, Giles recommends them and hey presto Vaughan has the side that never changes and on the evidence of the past 18 months never wins any meaningful test matches let alone series.
As a Somerset supporter I cannot believe Bopara is constently overlooked at test level this season. He has scored runs and big runs in every single format of the game and takes wickets, something Collingwood hasn't done for a couple of years.
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sussex23, why have you dropped englands most consistant bowler??
although i would like to see broad in the team, for collingwood - he s aparently fatigued at the moment, so Shah or Bopara anyone?
and whats wrong with Foster of Essex, great keeper, good batsman, or Mustard - the same. Ambrose has shown he is not quite international quality.
the 4 man attack looks relatively good - pace, swing and spin. I dont understand the criticism of Sidebottom? what has he done wrong, he WILL take wickets, probing away, swinging and seaming.
next match, Broad back for Collingwood, Foster in for Ambrose, batting in depth for the runs and quality bowlers to get wickets
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On a seperate point drewster499 is 100% right about Key. Bring him into the 1 day side to captain and open the batting then we'll have someone putting pressure on Vaughan.
Vaughan likes Collingwood as the 'split' captain because he isn't a threat to his test captancy
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A couple of points:
1. I don't understand how anyone can tout KP as a serious successor to Vaughan. In my view his performace at Lord's as Captain was fairly bad and it affected his batting. He's like Fred - performs best for us if left to play naturally.
Andrew Strauss is surely the only contender. He seems to bat better with the Captaincy and he's got plenty of experience. Get him in soon, either before or the WI series after Christmas. He should be ODI skipper too, particularly after the controversy Collingwood has attracted, from being caught in that club in SA to that run-out at The Oval. Collingwood hasn't been a great Captain and Strauss deserves the job and has been treated frankly appallingly by the selectors over this issue.
2. Drop Ambrose and pick James Foster or Ben Scott, who has been keeping excellently for Middlesex all season. He's scored a few runs too.
3. I cannot believe they've brought back Collingwood so quickly, what a joke.
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Does anyone know how many runs Collingwood scored for his county while he was out of the Test side?
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rav_man, Sidebottom hasn't done anything 'wrong'. He's used his talents to the best of his ability in turning himself into a consistently accurate medium pace bowler. My point is that, without pace and movement (which Sidebottom doesn't generate, except on a wet Headingley wicket), you won't trouble a good batting lineup like the South African one. England need to take 20 wickets, not simply restrict the scoring rate.
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can anyone please explain to me how Agnew and others have commented that it is right to drop broad because he has looked a bit toothless and tired in the bowling!!
Hold on a minute... England haven't played since Monday last week.... How long does it take to recover... Is 10 days not enough for an international bowler!! to me that just sounds like the team aren't fit enough or don't have the desire to play a 4 match series... am I wrong!
I have to agree with peoples comments re Vaughan though. His average has just not been good enough for far too long and Ambrose must go...
My team would be
Cook
Strauss
Shah
Bell
Bopara/ Collingwood
Prior
Broad
Flintoff
Anderson
Sidebottom/ (Jones/ Harmisson dep on conditions)
Panesar
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Why do we need to play 5 bowlers? When we played 5 bowlers before it was because Giles couldnt be relied upon to bowl in 1st innings of games. and not always 2nd innings of games either
We should pick our 4 best bowlers and simply have a 5th option to rest the frontline bowlers. This side looks the most balanced side I've seen for some time from England, if we struggle to bowl South Africa out it's not because we only have 4 bowlers its because the 4 bowlers we do have arn't good enough.
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Does anyone in the coutry feel that collingwood should be in this england set up simply as a batsman?
Either bring in Prior and bat him at six (he's got a average better than colly) and play five bowlers and give yourself a chance at bowling out a team that haven't looked like they are going to give any wickets away. Or if the selectors are still concerned at the weakness of the batting then bring in a specialist batsman such as Rob Key. The sight of Key coming to the wicket would give me far more confidence than seeing an out of nick collingwood; he's got a higher average and his technique is far better at test level. Collingwood is not a test batsman!
I'm glad at the omission of Harmison; this was the wrong pitch for him and I'm not sure what the selectors were thinking bringing him into the squad for this ground. If we are going to call back cricketers who have dubious claims to be in the side, then at least do it when they are the right horse for the course.
Finally, vaughan: Watch your back!
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Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.
What a pickle the selectors have got themselves into.
The only way out of this is to drop Vaughan, give the captaincy to Strauss or Collingwood, Bell bats at 3, replace Ambrose with Foster and bring Broad back in.
Vaughan simply hasn't got it anymore. Strauss is probably the way forward. Bell at 3 gives Pietersen a chance to build an innings. Foster is the best gloveman in the country and has been for several years - remember it was only a broken arm that forced him out of the England side in the first place, not a drop in form.
Even if Broad's bowling is a bit under par, being in the side will be far better for him than being out of it - how batting more than makes up for it, as it's about time we had someone in the tail who could bat.
Welcome back Freddy - we've missed you.
Sorry Darren - your selection was a huge mistake and probably won't be repeated but that's not your fault.
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What on earth does James Foster have to do to get an England spot? Once again, last night the television cameras were on him and he performed amazingly. To be Englands No. 1 choice, surely you would have to be either the best gloveman or the best keeper/batsman; Ambrose is neither.
On the other note of bringing back collingwood, it stinks of inconsistency. He was dropped for the reason of not scoring enough runs and hasn't remedied that in county cricket. Now i am a big fan of his but i feel it shouldn't be one rule for him and a different rule for others even if he is the one day captain. At least Harmison has been taking wickets which was what he needed to do.
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Yes, somebody ese mentioned Robert Key. He started amazingly a few years ago, against SA I believe, in SA and made centuries.
Why is Key no longer in the frame?
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great point Dan_19, i totally agree.
ambrose just isn't working, give foster a try, and bring back broad! just his batting is worth a place!
i would bat broad at 7, poss even 6 he defenitely has the potential to be a top class allrounder.
strauss
cook
vaughan
pietersen
bell
flintoff
broad
foster
sidebottom
anderson
panesar
whats the problem with that?
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Does anyone (apart from Captain Courageous) really believe that Collingwood will score more runs than Broad, given his current form? If not, surely Broad's bowling could be regarded as a bonus / 5th bowler ration?
This smacks of Vaughan sticking up for his mates. As an SA supporter I'm quite happy with this team selection. Not saying Colly can't turn it around, but certainly unlikely given the available evidence.
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Don't understand the previous poster who said something like this being an unfair way to judge England and Vaughan.
How else do you suggest a team, a captain and batsman are judged other than on results and runs?
Perhaps the suggestion is that we get in the Strictly Come Dancing judges to adjudicate on artistic merit and how synchronised the pre-game huddle is during 'Jerusalem?'
If the team loses and the captain doesnt make runs, then all he is doing is tossing the coin.
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How does collingwood get back in the team to replace broad? even if broad is tired he could bat 6 on current form (significantly better than colly's) and be used as the fifth bowler... At least Harmison went away and took alot of wickets before being recalled, Colly (like Strauss before him) has done nothing to actually justify being recalled
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Spot on, Aggers, about Vaughan but, as captain, he will still be around at the Oval however badly he performs at Edgbaston.
With so many drugs-in-sport cases in the news again, I think someone should have a serious look at what the selectors might be taking: it certainly isn't performance-enhancing. The in-again out-again antics over Harmison and Collingwood beggar belief. Tremlett must pleased to be shot of it for the time being.
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How could anyone consider leaving Sidebottom out if he's fit? He has 75 wickets at 25 from only 17 tests. He's certainly more likely to take wickets than Harmison.
If England are, as they should, only going to play four bowlers, Freddie and Sidebottom are certainly going to play, meaning the rest are fighting for one place.
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Again a great piece. I agree that we needed to strengthen the batting if only to get some confidence back. However Shah would have been a better pick. If there reason for choosing Collingwood was that he can bowl abit then it seems a silly pick since Collingwood could bowl all day at Ntini and not get him out.
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I agree with other posters,England is just a cosy club where friends pick friends.
Pattinson disrupted the team because he was not in the clique.
Broad has been dropped for committing the cardinal sin of embarrassing the top order batsmen.
What a disgrace.
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i dont see what foster or shah have to do to get into this current england line up
and to think the england team were celebrating the same team being picked 6 times in a row, thats ridiculous why constatntly select under performing players
theres so many batsmen and bowlers doing well in the county game
the current selection is a joke, infact its WORSE THAN OUR ONE DAY SELECTION WAS RECENTLY. The fact that foster and shah etc cant get a game when players like collingwood are brought back after scoring hardly any runs is appsaloutely shocking
GIVE SOMEONE ELSE A GO, AND THAT SHOULD COUNT FOR THE SELECTORS AS WELL AS THE PLAYERS
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Get Rob Key in the side. He has absolutely flourished as captain of Kent in the last couple of seasons and would make a superb England skipper. You can't stick him in as captain straight away, so dump Collingwood, stick Vaughan at 6 and open with Key. When Vaughan has made it 40 innings with no Test century, then we can drop him.
As for the bowlers, who cares? They're all crap.
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Finally someone questioning Vaughan's place in the team.
His ability as a captain is not in doubt but I have just read an article by James Haskell and he said the captain should be the best guy for the job out of the best 15 (or 11 in this case) picked, not first name on the team sheet then picked around him.
While this is not true in all situations, I believe it applies in this one. Vaughan has not been getting runs for a very long time and although he had 1 beautiful knock against (a very poor) New Zealand, with Australia coming up it is time for Strauss to take on the mantle and gain some experience of doing the job in test matches.
What more do Shah and Bopara have to do to get a look in at test match level? I suppose you could argue that Bopara failed in Sri Lanka but who didn't? Also, its pretty difficult to play well when you are only keeping someone's seat warm and this has been the case with England for a long time.
The keeper issue is not really an issue if you play four bowlers as Ambrose is a good number 8 and has made no glaring errors with the gloves and Flintoff could very well be a destructive number 7 if he returns to any sort of form.
The problem arises when you cannot take 20 wickets, which we are not doing at the moment, so you need to look for a good keeper who can bat and an all rounder. Prior is an option, although I think he should concentrate solely on his batting and come in at 5/6 anyway (above Colly must definately) and Read and Foster do not have good enough batting technique for this level. Davies at Worcester is the one for the future so I think we should get him in behind the stumps now and give him time to progress. He's not going to do any worse than Ambrose and will certainly be a better player further down the road.
Finally the bowling. Why bother picking Harmison and not playing him? The same applies to Pattinson, one test match is no way to judge.
Although Anderson was probably the pick of the bowlers at Headingley, he still does not take enough wickets or bowl economically enough to warrant a place in the side. Once again is ok to look good against New Zealand but he was rubbish against India last summer and he is easy meat for the South Africans this time around. The selectors told Harmison to bowl for Durham and take wickets, which he has and I bet if you asked Graeme Smith who he would rather face the answer would be Anderson. The only logical reason for his continued selection could be that they are waiting for Simon Jones to get fit and replace him.
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Can't see this attack bowling out South Africa twice.We need to win next two tests to win series. Should have included Harmison to give them a chance.
Vaughan needs to perform well in both next two tests to stay in team.
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few things to mension on the keeper selection matter. if england are going to bat their keeper at 6 like in the last test, then prior/mustard are the obvious choices. however, if england are going to bat their keeper at 8 like in they are going to in the next test, this indicates that the keeper should be a keeper that can bat, not a batsmen that can keep. going by this, i would pick foster to replace ambrose and to bat at 8. he is easily the best gloveman in the country and his batting has come on well over the last 2 seasons. foster is the man for the job and has been now for a while. i am not really sure why he is getting overlooked all the time
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As an outsider from The Netherlands I wonder why the bigger picture always gets lost among the details of the individual selections. The long standing problem with the England team is that there is no steel in the team. I accept that you cannot always say what is really going on as a player, but the cheap excuses, the promise of better performances in the future after every poor result not only sound cheap but betray a lack of sense of responsability. Cosy team England, indeed. Remember the following lines? 'We're going to learn from this experience'. Really? Then tell us what you have learned and what difference it has made. 'We're going to surprise a few people'. You mean by actually scoring some runs or capture a few wickets? Well, that would be a surprise. And worst of all, 'We showed a bit of character'. Really mr. Vaughan? Anderson in the second innings at Headingley, yes, but the rest of the team? A sad example of lack of steel is Mark Ramprakash and the way he continued to be selected. A wonderful player who got chance after chance. More than ten years of massive underachievement costing England dear.
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How is ambrose still in the team he can only play the cut shot and is now starting to make mistakes with the gloves. I watched james foster play for essex against derbyshire last night and he is by far the best gloveman i have ever seen. He was standing up to the stumps to a bowler bowling about 85mph i dont think there is another keeper in the country that could do that, and his batting is pretty good aswell. Collingwood should not be back in the team he was dropped to go find some form and hes not scored any significant runs for durham. I like sidebottom but he does not bowl with enough pace, if we are going to bowl south africa out twice we need harmison or jones in the team. I think the time has come for vaughn to be dropped oais shah deserves a go in test match cricket and id give bell the captaincy.
Cook
Straus
Bell(c)
KP
Shah
Foster
Broad
Flintoff
anderson
Jones
Panesar
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This selection is almost as ludicrous as Pattinson's inclusion in the last test. Broad is young and hungry with a point to prove and should never have been dropped. This idea of burnout is a pitiful excuse. The extended break between tests surely would have been enough for him to feel fully recharged.
Broad is fast becoming a genuine all-rounder and certainly offers a lot more than Collingwood, who like Vaughan has looked like he's been batting with a tooth pick all season!
Freddie will be the one to suffer from all this. It will be interesting to see how many overs he'll clock up this time. So much for nurturing him back. He already has the whole expectation of the side on his shoulders.
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I am happy with the team selection for the next test but I did have Broad to keep his place over Collingwood in view of his superior batting form and being a genuine 5th bowler. Collingwood at 6 looks like a solution to the Ambrose at 6 weakness but remember his lack of form which led to his exclusion at Headingly...
Poor Shah must wonder what he has to do to get a game!
Sidebottom back in for Pattinson should make a big difference. I have read with some bewilderment comments and team lists with our player of the year and leading bowler ommitted.
Others have queried Anderson's right to keep his place and until recently I shared this view as he was expensive and inconsistent. But if you look at his form this year he has been very good; quite how Strauss denied him a player of the series award against the Kiwi's earlier this summer I am not sure! Almost as strange a decision as when Anderson did get the award last summer against the Windies (a certain Mr Pieterson harshly lost out on that occassion)
The noose tightens around Ambrose's neck but no England keeper since Stuart has been consistent enough with both bat and glove and I suspect the stumper position will continue to cause pub-pundits just as much grief as the infamous left side of England's midfield!
England will be looking for a bowling hero in the 3rd test; all of the South African batsmen already have at least one hundered chalked up and they have a certain allrounder who has been known to chip in with the odd run from time to time...
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It is about time Monte Panessar got someone behind the stumps who:-
1. Can catch the chances that go begging, including stumpings
2. Will give him the confidence and encouragement to become a better bowler.
And there is only one good candidate for that, James Foster.
The role of the wicket-keeper in nurturing a developing spinner has been overlooked
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I forgot to mention the Skipper!
Vaughan needs some runs as a batsmen and some results as a captain. If he fails on both accounts in the next two tests questions should rightfully be asked. He should be safe to see out this series though; to fire your nations most successful captain ever mid series would do little for team morale going into the last game.
To keep things in perspective although we have lost 7 days of test cricket straight we have only actually lost 1 test match off the back of a good run!
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This makes a mockery of dropping Collingwood for the previous test. One half decent innings for Durham and he is straight back in the side.
If this is the best we can do to strengthen the batting after the last performance heaven help us.
The selectors seem to have retreated into the most timid of selections after such a thrashing. What will it take for some changes to be made? Players who have been waiting for some time need to be given chances if the team is failing.
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Hi
With regards to the news that Stuart Broad has not been selected for the 3rd test has prompted my opinion.
I have felt for a long time know that Michael Vaughan has long dropped the baton as far as being England Captain. A permanent replacement should have been found when he his knee was injured for the last time.
Replace Michael Vaughan with a new captain before the forth test. My choice is Rob Key.
Harmison and Collingwood are well past their sell-by date and no longer have the skills or commitment to England to deserve a place in the side. Even a tired Stuart Broad is a better replacement than Paul Collingwood.
England is becoming a team of Michael Vaughan and is mates he is putting friendship before his role as captain. Perhaps he and his mates are using test cricket as a billboard for advertising their 20-20 skills and thats why the are not performing.
I feel very strongly that Collingwood Vaughan and Harmison are no longer candidates for a place in the England side. There continued presence will see England slaughtered at the next ashes encounter.
Broad must be gutted. I rate his ability and commitment as deserving better.
The line up for the third test should be Robert Key for Vaughan. Broad for Collingwood. Hoggard or Sidebottom the fitter of the two. The rest of the team stays the same the temp Australian bowler giving way to Hoggard or Sidebottom.
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Totally agree with post #44.
With Foster behind the stumps you can also get rid of Collingwood and include Bopara. The batting argument is a no-brainer and if you saw the way Bopara/Foster played in tandem last night you should agree that this would seriously give England a credible 5th bowler option whilst not hindering the batting potential. This would ruin Essex but so be it if England are to be serious players in world test cricket.
Finally bring in Rob Key as skipper and number 3 and England could seriously go places.
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The England team usually looks good on paper yet, generally, seems to struggle to deliver (excuse the pun).
Pietersen is not a great player - one good innings a series does not elevate him even close to greatness (apart from his ego). He needs much more consistency to even be considered 'above average'.
I'd rather have Strauss nibbling 40's, 50's and 60's every time - that's how Graham Thorpe made his mark remember.
And I watch a good deal of cricket on TV - there are some very useful English players performing well 'consistently'.
Foster and Key have been exceptional. Surely they must be given an opportunity sooner rather than later, even if it's just in the One Day format. Key would make a very good ODI captain from what I have seen.
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I just read leedspig's comments (41). I broadly agree with several of his points but Bell as captain?! If batting averages were bodylanguage Bell would be a number 11, not what you want from your skipper!
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Some really good points made here – I totally agree with howzat07 that the selectors have got themselves into a pickle…
They’ve shown absolutely no clear or consistent strategy – e.g. happy to be ruthless and drop under-performing bowlers (Harmy/Hoggy), but not the under-performing batsmen. And when they do finally drop Colly – because he’s not performing - he’s allowed back into the team after only 1 game, having done absolutely nothing to show he’s back in any kind of form.
And the treatment of Tremlett has been unbelievable. Picked in the 12 as a reserve bowler in case someone gets injured, then as soon as someone does get injured, he’s dropped, and a complete unknown – with practically no first class experience – gets shunted in for one game.
And why hasn’t Shah been given the opportunity he deserves (and has earned)? Why is Foster – the best gloveman in the country by a mile – persistently disregarded? Massively frustrating for England fans – and presumably also for the players, some of whom have been quite shabbily treated.
Having said that, I wouldn’t relish being an England selector right now – our batsmen are generally down on form; our bowlers are hard-working, but possibly lacking the inspiration to bowl out good sides; and there is no clear-cut wicket-keeper (Prior can bat, but his keeping is suspect; Foster/Ambrose can keep, but batting is questionable).
Anyway, having shuffled round lots of different options, my side would be:
Strauss
Cook
Vaughan (C)
Pietersen
Bell
Prior
Flintoff
Broad
Anderson
Panesar
Sidebottom
I don’t think Collingwood deserves to be back in the team. I wanted to play Shah in his place – which would have given us a strong top 6, but it would also have left us weak in the back-up bowling department. I also wanted to bring Foster in for Ambrose, but that left us too weak in the batting.
In the end I went for a short-term solution of bringing back Matt Prior to strengthen the batting, and kept Broad in the side (more as a batsmen who can bowl, than the other way around). I think this is probably the best balanced side we can put out at the moment - we now bat down to 8, AND we have 4 strike bowlers, with good back-up from Broad.
However, longer term, I’d be looking to get Foster in the team at 8, once Broad has developed a little more, and I would want to try and bring Shah in too if we can find a way of keeping 4+1 bowlers (maybe by dropping Vaughan, but then who could captain??)… And of course if Simon Jones can prove his fitness, then he needs to come back too… Not straightforward!
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Vaughan should stay as captain as he is a class player who will come good eventually.
I think Collingwood is very fortunate to get his place back with a mediocre average (considering the modern day flatter pitches) and technique. Owais Shah is in form and experienced and should be allowed enter England's closed shop of a batting line-up
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Well spoken Aggers!!
About the wicketkeepers position, Hampshire's Nic Pothas is now qualified for England. How old is he? Too old to continue his too short international career?
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I agree fully with comments 15 and 37 regarding Ravi Bopara.
I also watched Bopara's ton against Derbyshire at a pace of 8 runs per over and, regardless of the one-day format, it showed a class batsman at the top of his game. Instead the selectors continue to pick an out of form batsman in Collingwood who has shown no signs of form all summer and is odds on to fail again.
And Bopara has also taken wickets as a bowler this season, which Collingwood has not.
Even a team with Broad in rather than Collingwood would be a stronger batting line up on present form. Did Geoff Miller explain to Broad that he was being dropped in order to strengthen the BATTING? Seriously?!
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potstirrer
You've left out the runs scored in Sri Lanka. I know Bopara played instead of Strauss, but that's hardly a reason to completely ignore that tour.
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fosters stats ......... which bare in mind he got when he was about 20 are ......... welll SHOCKINGLY GOOD
he averages 25.11 with a high score of 48 which he scored after spending nearly 3 and half hours at the crease
and during australias 551-6 declared in his last test he didnt concede a single bye :o
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It must be an end for people who say "this guy is good beause of what he has done in the past. Far in the past in some cases."
Its time for people who say "this guy is in form what does he offer for the future."
Of course a drugs and alchol ban at selectors meeting might help. Come on they selectors must be drunk or on somthing doggy.
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I cannot beleive that an out of form collingwood stregthens the batting at the cost of an in form (batting wise) broad..
surely shah or bopara are best options?
the bowling looks okay but harmy could have add that extra pace and bounce to worry some SA batters, esp Amla....
i think our attack looks workmanlike and honest rather than explosive and dangerous like it was in 2005 although the like for like replacements of panesar - giles and sidebottom - hoggard are clearly for the best...
I think vaughan should keep the captaincy for the ashes but only just, key is a much better player than when he had his last run in the side and he has done what vaughan never could manage in getting a test double ton..
my final gripe would be ambrose, he has kept pretty well and batted well at times at 7 behind 6 batters but with flintoff back the keepers role changes he has to be either (a) the countrys best keeper in a four man attack batting at 8 - foster OR
(b) the countrys best batsmen/ keeper batting at 6 in a 5 man bowling attack - prior
this is a big series for england and i think it has shown us that the 6 test unchanged side that was good enough to beat NZ won't challenge india, SA, aus, SL
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cfawbert - comment 21.
You have missed out Pietersen - can we assume this is an oversight?
this has just made me think...maybe Pattinson was a typo!
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Put simply, this is yet another diabolical selection. The first thing to say is that the selectors should be held to account for their shambolic performance of late. Timid selections time and again, and it all smacks of nepotism with Vaughan and his pals.
Collingwood should plainly never have been recalled; there's simply nothing that can justify this. He needs to get back into form in county cricket, as has been previously noted one decent innings with Durham does simply not consitute this. The selectors are to my mind out of touch.
Broad should not have been dropped, I think he'll undoubtedly become a world class all rounder in the future.
Bold decisions need to be made to glavanise this England team into world beaters. Key as captain, he's been brilliant for Kent, stick him in as one day captain to at least put some pressure on Vaughan, and then promote him to test captain.
Prior back in as wicketkeeper; very good batsman (particuarly at the moment) and able wicket keeper; Ambrose is simply not up to the job.
Get rid of these tired selections and get some new blood in there: the likes of Shah, Davies at Worcester would be a good bet; the selectors need to wake up and stop embarassing this country!!
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I've just seen on Notts website that Broad is playing tomorrow against Durham in the 4 day game at Trent Bridge, so he can't be that exhausted.
To all of you who suggest Prior please understand that cricket involves batting, bowling and fielding. He may score runs, but he will drop catches, miss stumpings, concede extras and struggle with left arm bowling. He is not and never will be a Test class keeper. Sides with poor keepers do not win matches. If he's good enough to bat at Test level he should get rid of the gloves and concentrate on that.
Of course his best course of action is to ingratiate himself into the Captain's clique and then he has a place for life irrespective of performance.
In recent weeks both live and on TV I've watched both Read and Foster keep and they are both excellent. In this side they could both bat at 8 and would improve the team. The keeper sets the whole tone for a sides fielding effort and poor performances behind the stumps adversely affect the bowlers confidence as we saw when Prior played.
As for Vaughan, he should have gone 2 years ago in my view. I would replace him with Key at the end of this series and inject some new blood, as long as that doesn't mean a new clique and the return of Geraint Jones!
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Did someone mention Nic Pothas as keeper.... seriously...
I think it much better if england stopped qualifying people to play for england because they have played here for 5 years!! He's not English.. he played SA schools and SA U19....
Key at No3 is an interesting suggestion.. he's a lot more confident than his last England call up and as mentioned by earlier blogs ... has the technique..
So..
Strauss (c)
Cook
Key
Bell
Pieterson
Bopara/ Collingwood
Prior
Broad
Anderson
Sidebottom (Harmisson/ Jones dep conditions)
Panesar
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I despair at the things people right. We are so so fickle. We moan about the team being a closed shop, but the team was unchanged for 6 games, and whilst winning, the complaints were few and far between.
In the Ashes series, we kept the same team for 4 successive matches, to great effect. If they had chopped and changed after the first match defeat, I wonder if the result had been the same? Going by how everyone seems to react to ONE defeat, I would guess that most of you would have had made wholesale changes to the 2005 team following the first test defeat.
The Headlingley selection was shocking, for the message it sends out. But one defeat and the team needs changing is also a bad and message. It may appear a closed club, but I don't think it is. Headlingley proved that, and the damage that bringing in new new faces do was clear.
Lastly, scoring runs in County cricket does not, as most should know, automatically translate to scoring lots in test cricket. It is a higher level game, and technique, and crucially mental toughness are tested to the full. There is a long list of players who have picked up wickets or scored loads of runs at county, but not reproduced it at test level - G Hick being the prime example.
I am not a huge fan of any of the team members now, but I see little point in pursuing the usual, predicable, boring and frankly pathetic knee jerk reactions that I read in this blog. This country is full of people who like nothing better than throwing mud and putting the boot in at anyone who does not win. And then we wonder why we don't win!?
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I still disagree with this selection. What has Collingwood done to warrant a recall? Nothing. The selectors were right to drop him in the first place - in fact he should never have been picked for test matches ever - he's not good enough.
Dropping Broad is the right thing too - he has looked pretty insipid with the ball though definitely one for the future.
However a 4 man pace attack containing Fred Flintoff is asking for trouble. Fred would have a very good case to sue the ECB if he breaks down now. People forget how little cricket he's had this season. If he breaks down now, we could lose a) this game b) Fred Flintoff possibly for good c) the series and therefore d) Michael Vaughan as captain. What state would we be in the win the 2009 Ashes then?
To play Flintoff as one of four main bowlers with his injury record with only one test under his belt since an 18 month layoff is basically a joke.
I would have left Collingwood and Broad out of the 13 and instructed Fred to be 6 and Ambrose 7. I do concede that this lengthens our tail - but that should give the spineless top order the kick they need to get their heads down and get some runs. By playing Collingwood - effectively we're accepting that the top order can't perform at a level better than they have been of late.
I don't like the way these new selectors are thinking and I suspect Leeds 2008 won't be the only blunder we see from these guys in the next 12 months.
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1. Cook
2. Strauss *
3. Shah
4. Pietersen
5. Bell
6. Bopara
7. Flintoff
8. Foster +
9. Sidebottom
10. Anderson
11. Panesar
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Collingwood's selection baffles me.
Let's put aside whether it was right or wrong to drop him. If we follow the selectors' logic (!) in dropping him, however, preseumably it was because he was not making runs. So, they sent him back to county cricket to make runs and prove his worth to the team.
Now, call me old-fashioned, but he has been out of the team for ,what, 10 days? And has he made any runs of significance in that time?
I begin to wonder if the selectors know what they are doing.
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Why is everyone suggesting picking Sidebottom? I've nothing against him personally, but surely this series has shown that medium-pace dobblies (however accurate) won't bowl the Saffers out.
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If 'fickle' and 'loopy' were ever apparent here on this blog, it is those who think that Sidebottom should not be in. This is the bloke who has consistently taken wickets for the team for the last 12 months, who has been the most consistent bowler, has risen to No 6 in the world rankings, clearly gives his all to his country, and has troubled many a team, and many a good test batsmen with his 'medium pace dobblies'?! Or is there another Sidebottom I don't know about.
Or are we saying, in complete contrdiction to what most of you are saying, that we drop those that are in form?
Madness
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Assuming the selectors muddle through the last two Tests of this series without much changing, either in terms of personnel or results, and then look to change a couple of things for the winter, maybe this could be the team for the first Test in India:
Strauss (captain)
Cook
Bell
Pietersen
Shah
Bopara
Flintoff
Foster
Broad/Jones
Sidebottom
Panesar
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Hang on. We failed to bowl them out with a four man attack in the second innings at Lords. Then we were in the field for six sessions or so at Headingley with a five man attack - now the selectors think that actually yeah a four man attack can do the trick.
What was the point in bringing Harmison back in to the squad if he isn't going to play?!
Next, how many times must we put up with the drivel Aggers spouts about Vaughan. How come Alistair Cook isn't put under scrutiny. After all he is the only batsman apart from Collingwood (who was dropped) that hasn't got a 100 this summer.
It is absoultely unthinkable that Vaughan gets dropped. Unthinkable.
He is England's most succesful captain in history. This time next year we will be in the middle of the Ashes. Is it really sensible to think about replacing our captain, the only one in recent history who has won the ashes, so soon before this massive series. Especially as there is no stand out replacment or does Flintoff wade his way back in there.
People who are calling for Rob Key to come in straight as captain is unbelievable.
I really hope that Vaughan piles on the runs in this match to shut all you doubters -with exceptionally short memories- up!
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Okay so we've gotten through a fair number of wicket-keepers since the magical AJ Stewart called it a day - but seriously, how long before the Jimmy Foster gets another crack at the whip. This guy is absolutely head and shoulders above every other wicky in domestic cricket - taking blinding catches down the leg side, standing up to the stumps when tenDo and Napier are bowling, oh yeah and he also keeps wicket to super Danesh - arguably the best spinner in England by a country mile. Seriously - he wouldn't even have to score runs - he saves around 30-40 runs an innings with his takes down the leg-side, creates more stumping opportunities - the guy is awesome!
Thoughts anyone?
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England's next XI certainly has a better balance to it, however the inclusion of Flintoff as part of a quartet has to be the exception rather than the rule- at 30 surely now he should be used in shorter, impact bursts, which means Prior should get the gloves back ASAP. Ambrose has never looked test class. Vaughan's spot should be safe for now- who else has the authority to take over the reigns? If someone was worthy of the captaincy surely it would be time to give Shah a prolonged go in the team at his expense. His natural talent is clear for all to see and he's proved now that he can play his best cricket under pressure
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Leaving aside Sidebottom's single test against Pakistan in 2001, his figures (wickets, average) by series are:
West Indies in England, 2007: (16 @ 19.68)
India in England, 2007: (8 @ 37.87)
England in Sri Lanka, 2007/08: (5 @ 63.60)
England in New Zealand, 2007/08: (24 @ 17.08)
New Zealand in England, 2008: (17 @ 20.47)
(Source: www.cricinfo.org)
In other words, in the two series against decent opposition (India and Sri Lanka), Sidebottom was ineffective. His figures have been bloated by playing poor sides (WI and NZ), who lost their wickets playing poor shots to Sidebottom's accurate but sedate bowling.
Harmison wouldn't have been my choice by any means, but he has taken wickets against good teams (e.g. Australia), as has Simon Jones.
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I have come up with this team based on all the comments above:
1. Strauss
2. Cook
3. Key
4. Pietersen
5. Bell
6. Flintoff
7. Broad
8. Foster
9. Sidebottom
10. Anderson
11. Panesar
Key in for Vaughan
Broad for Collingwood
Foster for Ambrose
Strauss or Key to captain
Are we better than the selectors or would this team get stuffed?
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Interviewer: George Parr, you are an England Cricket Selector...?
GP : Yes, yes, I am...unfortunately. I didn't intend to be, but there were no vacancies on the parish council... and I thought it might be fun...
Interviewer: Fun...? Ye--es... And can you give us some insight into the thinking behind the selection of the latest England squad?
GP: Thinking? What's that?
Interviewer: Well, let me put it another way; can you explain how you arrived at the make-up of the squad to play against South Africa?
GP: Ah, yes... Well... Er... In a way it's not unlike being in the Cabinet.
Interviewer: Really? In what way?
GP: Well, We know what most people in the country want...
Interviewer: To win Test Matches?
GP: Yes... well, partly, but mostly, they want to be able to whinge and moan down at the pub or on internet blogs about how useless the selectors are...
Interviewer: Ye-es... I see
GP: And so, we give them the perfect opportunity...
Interviewer: By selecting a team that nobody really wants?
GP: Exactly...
Interviewer: And how does that help England to win Test Matches?
GP: Well, it doesn't...
Interviewer: It doesn't?
GP: No, no... You see, you have to be aware of the underlying need of the British public (and especially that portion of it that watches or comments on Test Cricket) to protest...
Interviewer: To protest? About what?
GP: Anything... I mean, it's all down to the demise of Robert Robinson...or Anne Robinson... well, one of the Robinsons...
Interviewer: I'm sorry? What do you mean?
GP: Well, in years gone by, when things weren't going well, people would write a nasty letter to 'Points of View'... But you can't do that now, because no-one writes letters any more... they just moan down the pub and on the internet...
Interviewer: I see... so the Selectors are actually fulfilling a deep need in the British Psyche?
GP: Precisely. The need for people who know nothing about a subject to make loud protests about what a terrible mess 'they' are making of it...
Interviewer: 'They' being...?
GP: Well, whoever is in charge. In this case the Selectors... but it could be anyone in authority... the government, the police, the schools, the health service... and it's even better now, because thanks to the internet, people from other countries can moan, too...
Interviewer: Ye-es...
GP: And they know even less about the England cricket team than the British people who moan about it... and the selectors are the ones who take the flak...
Interviewer: I see, so being a selector IS just like being in the Cabinet, then...?
GP: Yes, exactly...
Interviewer: George Parr, thank you very much...
GP: It's a pleasure...
(with apologies to John Bird and John Fortune)
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I think Broad is being harshly judged. In the last test he scored 84 runs and took a key wicket in De Villiers (Ok he was on 174 but still). All the best to Collingwood but I can't see him making a better contribution than that.
On his bowling his return in the 1st innings at Lords of 2/88 was a little expensive but respectable. He was fruitless in the second innings but in fairness all the bowlers struggled.
The only stand out bad bowling performance was in the last test but when was the last time England dropped anybody for two poor innings especially as he contributed with his batting.
Clearly the selectors have gone wobbly after dropping Collingwood and Broad was the only one available to drop in their eyes.
Two other points if I may.
1) When will the ECB sort out the groundsmen to produce wickets that are more conducive to England winning a test match instead of trying to guarantee 5 days pay for the counties. Ie a spinning wicket.
2) Given Collingwood's natural fielding ability has anyone thought of turning him into a wicketkeeper? Two birds/one stone!
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#73 clearly didn't see any of the India or Sri Lanka test series. Sidebottom was head and shoulders above the other bowlers and would have taken far more wickets had he not had so many catches dropped from his bowling behind the wicket.
These dropped catches were what saw Prior off.
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Strauss
Cook
Key c
Bell
Pietersen
Prior +
Flintoff
Broad
Sidebottom
Anderson
Panesar
And time to end this eighteenth century tradition of selction by committee. Give the coach all the power and let him live or die by his decisions. At least then there should be clear direction and we'll know who really choose the players.
Reverting to a four man attack smacks of a defensive team selection although it seems that the weather could decide this test. England have to choose five bowlers for the Oval.
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Robert Key has not played a test match since January 21st 2005.....how can he come in and captain the team!!!!!
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bob roth #70, you need to wake up and smell the mellow birds my friend. Slowly take off the vaughan tinted spectacles and see for yourself that he is a liability in the field, a ball chasing captain who's field placings are always a case of "after the horse has bolted" and most importantly his batting performances are poor to say the least.
You raise a query about Alastair Cook and I agree his actual form is poor and you can quote him on that too but he is able to grind scores out and sell his wicket very dearly.
Does Vaughan do this , does he heck ? He misses straight balls from Steyn early on !!!
Vaughan has previously done a decent job I agree but the foundations were already laid by Hussain and Fletcher. The next England captain (hopefully Key) will almost have to start all over again.
The sooner the later as far as I am concerned.
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it would seem that Panesar is an automatic choice now. However he does seem to lack variety and struggles against left handers. I would like o see England experiment with an off-pinner such as Swann who can also bat and would not weaken the tail. also the South Africans love playing against pace bowling as that is all they get in RSA. Instead of high pace we need to find some variety and Jones with his reverse variations might be a beter option than Harmison. As for the batting we need to find some batsmen who don't give their wickets away like the current team and who would be content to leave the ball occasionally rather than flashing at the ball.
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#77
Dropped catches affect every bowler in the team. A single bowler may have his statistics hampered by bad luck over the course of a match, or, at a stretch, a series, but statistically speaking these things average themselves out over a longer period.
This cannot be used as an excuse for Sidebottom's ineffectiveness against good batsmen.
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Lucas - I am sure that Sangakkarra, Jayasuriya, Vandort and Tharanga will be thrilled to be referred, indirectly, as not very good batsmen, being as they were all dismissed by him.
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@ 75
Clever - but, sadly, too near to the truth to be completely funny!
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Clearly what is needed is a fresh set of selectors: This lot are clueless.
Not just any one-eyed cricket supporter, but every team he plays against can see that Vaughan hasn't merited a place in the England team for years. If he wasn't captain, he wouldn't be considered as a batsman and as captains lead by example, he's redundant: What has Vaughan got on the selectors that makes his position bombproof?
As for the Collingwood debacle, he's got England out of so many scrapes down the years, you'd think his position should at least be as garanteed as Vaughan's, but no.
In the first test he was given 'out' for 7 to the worst decision of the season so far and wasn't required to bat in the second innings. So on what grounds was he dropped for the second test? Furthermore, on what grounds was he re-selected for the coming 3rd Test?
The Pattinson nonsense has been worked to death on other blogs, but Broad is another player whose place should be guaranteed - as a number six BATSMAN who bowls occasionally. In the future, he may well develop some guile and craft as a pace bowler, but he's the missing link at 6 that England have been short of for years.
So, for pity's sake selectors, fall on your sword. Hanging around without dignity just isn't cricket.
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I think people need to put the whole Vaughan issue into perspective. First every game he doesn't score 50+ each innings people come out and say he is past it and shoudl be dropped, despite the fact that generally the rest of the batsmen have done as badly if not worse. In the recent NZ series he basically single handedly won us one game, KP won us the other and the other was a team performance. So as recently as 5 matches ago he pretty much dragged England to victory. At the time, all the comentators, including Aggers were saying he was "back to his best" and that it was a "true captains innings"
What has changed?
South Africa turned up. A team that most people thought would thrash Enland 4-0 are currently 1-0 up with 2 to play, this is not the end of the world, this is where the Great players step up and the good/average get left behind!
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Just read 'Heirs to Stewart's Throne' via the link in Athers blog. It's is time you got Foster's stats. up to date! From Essex CCC
web site
One day stats
129 matches
100 innings
26 not out
1781 runs
69* not out higest score
24.06 average
155 catches
37 stumpings
Now compare these with the rest!
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Has the world ended? From my understanding, England have lost ONE test match. Yet the selectors need to be sacked, the captain needs to be sacked, the team needs an overhaul.............. blah blah blah.
Get the balance right folks, and stop those knees jerking.
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Earlier on today saw Vaughan, Strauss and Collingwood all wandering round Birmingham relaxed and joking. Boys club = yes. Maybe practising = Yes. Taking it seriously - No
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captain vaughn said this morning in a 5 live interview harmison is bowling brilliant,
if that is the case why is he not included.
what the hell is collingwood doing back,
and why bat ambrose at 8, hes struggling at 6 and 7 and still the man in super form
matt prior is not even looked at.
we are one down and we want to square the series surely we must play the best.
i think the entire selectors and their policy must be under serious question.
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I don't understand why Collingwood, or any player picked as an all rounder, doesn't bowl more. They always used to.
Line and length medium pace to tie up one end.
Or is this just unfashionable?
Collingwood should bat, bowl and field at gully, otherwise someone else shoud get his spot.
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Smudger - Amazing what you can deduce from seeing people in the street! What should they be doing? Practising for 12 hours? Or not laughing? Or sat in their hotel room? Can you not laugh and take things seriously? Or should the players be kept separate - not mix together?
Next time you laugh at work, your boss can think the same I assume.
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"Vaughan hasn't merited a place in the England team for years."
Is that right? at what point did he become redundant in your eyes?
Years would suggest a long time would it not? Lets have a look back.
Summer 2007- First summer back after long injury, still scored two 100s.
Winter 05-07- Out of the team injured.
Summer 2005- Reckon it could have been time for Vaughan to go here, he only captained us to our first Ashes victory in 21 years and scored the highest individual score of the summer.
Winter 04-05 - I seem to remember we won away in South Africa during this winter? A pretty decent achievement?
Summer 04- Led England to seven test victories, something we haven't done in yonks and scored two hundreds in a test v WI.
Winter 04- Captained England to first test series win in WI in years and years- also scored century.
Winter 03- Oh no. We lost a 3 test series 1-0 away in Sri Lanka in his first tour as captain. Sack him!!!
Summer 03- Captained England to a 2-2 draw against South Africa coming back from the dead in his first series.
Winter 02-03- Pretty average tour of Australia! Just the 633 runs.
Summer 02- Admittedly disappointing summer. Only notched 900 runs!!
So to say he has not warranted a place in years is frankly a disgrace.
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Why do people keep prattling on about Harmison and "oh why has he been left out?!!?!?!?" when he's done nothing in recent Tests and his record against South Africa is ropey to say the least.
And I can't believe anyone would pick Harmison ahead of Sidebottom, I'd pick even Tremlett ahead of Sidebottom.
Harmison vs Sidebottom - Last 10 Tests
Harmison - 28 wkts @ 41.54
Sidebottom - 49 wkts @ 23.73
Harmison vs Sidebottom - Overall
Harmison - 212 wkts @ 31.39
Sidebottom - 73 wkts @ 25.27
Harmison vs South Africa
Home : 9 wkts @ 45.89 (SR 86.22, ER 3.19)
Away : 9 wkts @ 73.22 (SR 127.22, ER 3.45)
Some have noticed he's more effective at home, shame they didn't notice he's mainly more effective against ordinary opposition :-
Harmison - Home Tests
NZE/BAN/ZIM/WIN : 73 wkts @ 25.52 (SR 46.34, ER 3.30)
AUS/SAF/PAK/IND : 51 wkts @ 31.84 (SR 57.76, ER 3.31)
So should we take his recent form, form against South Africa (home, away or both) or are we going to ask South Africa to bat like New Zealand, Bangladesh, Zimbabwe or West Indies to make Harmison look good?!?!?!?!? I'm afraid England had to make a selection mistake in picking him before making the right one and leaving him out.
The only comparison that Harmison would win over Sidebottom is :
After 17 Tests
Harmison - 72 wkts @ 24.43
Sidebottom - 73 wkts @ 25.27
But mainly because he'd picked up 5/35, 4/44, 2/22, 4/55, 1/36 and 2/35 vs Zimbabwe and Bangladesh (18 wkts @ 12.61) Take the first 17 Tests Harmison played excluding ZIM/BAN and he took 69 wkts @ 28.17
Anyway, England have won 20 Tests since 2000 using four bowlers and only 28 Tests in the same period using five bowlers, despite 61% of England Tests featuring five bowlers. While five bowlers have been much more effective winning Tests home than away (19 wins in 33 home Tests vs 9 in 35 away using five bowlers), England lose less playing with four bowlers (23.3% vs 33.8%) and look a much better side without losing that much penetration bowling. It's a popular myth that including more bowlers means you are more likely to take 20 wickets in a Test, it failed last Test and it failed bigtime down under - eight times out of eight England have lost a Test down under since 2000 using this half-baked theory of 'needing' five bowlers.
West Indies used four bowlers, Australia used and still use four bowlers, but apparently England need five - go figure!
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I hope it rains. Otherwise Flintoff will over do his ankle. Vaughan has to go he is past it just hanging on.
I understand from comments hear that Broad is playing for his county tomorrow. He more than justified his place in the England team. Of course Michael Vaughan wants hismate Collingwood back so he looks slightly better than he is.
I can see no justification for playing Vaughan or Collingwood other than jobs for the boys. This is not a knee jerk reaction.
Just a reaction to a long spell of bad play by both players.
You are supposed to be good to play for England in any sport. Not take a year to get there. Both must go back to county cricket for the rest of the summer.
Vaughan must know its time to go.
Five bowler to protect Freddie until his ankle is proven means it should have been another bowler for a man who is out of form altogether Collinwood.
If Sidebottoms side goes and Freddies ankle goes where are England then. Vaughan out, selectors out Collinwood out.
I do not think this is knee jerk given what has happened this year
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Bobroth asks how Key can come into the side and as captain. The answer is simple
Key is batting well.
Key is a good leader and team mates respond to him.
Key is in form and confident.
Aggers is right, Vaughan is doing nothing, his leadership so badly exposed in the second test is non-existent, his form wouldn't get him ito Yorkshire's second team. He is a walking dolly wicket for any bowler capable of bowling an adequate length. His actions when criticising Flintoff forced Boycott to crucify him in Public and Vaughamn himself to make a grovelling humiliating public apology.
The Yorkshire team are better without him let alone England.
Key should be in, Vaughan should be out
Baztheace
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A 4-man bowling attack may be OK against weaker opponents, but it is going to destroy our bowlers if the SAs bat out days like we know they can.
Tired bowlers do not get wickets!
If our batsmen are sruggling we need 2 all-rounders. We cannot afford the luxury of adding another batsman, if it means we are down to 4 bowlers. We may score more runs, but not bowl them out.
Broad should have been in to help share the batting and bowling workload.
If we need to shore up the batsmen another look at the wicketkeeper is also required.
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I agree with you, Aggers. But I don't think you should judge Vaughan - or, indeed, his potential replacements - primarily on batting form. Right now, he is the brightest mind on the field, regardless of results which are often down to individual failures. Australia's captains have never been great batsmen - they display brilliant tactical nous as well as the ability to produce magnificent defensive efforts with the bat when the team - not them - is under pressure. We need more of that from Vaughan but, frankly, I feel he is the one who will bring back the Ashes.
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Well raincheck, if you can't judge Vaughan on his batting form what on earth can you judge him on.
His captaincy is dire beyond imagination and by your argument the current England Captain would be a non batting uninspirational complete passenger who should be put out if his misery so that we can be put out of ours.
Get someone in who can bat, is in good form and who inspires confidence.
A key appointment certainly
Baztheace
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Just read 'Heirs to Stewart's Throne' via the link in Agnew's blog. It's is time you got Foster's stats. up to date! From Essex CCC
web site
One day stats
129 matches
100 innings
26 not out
1781 runs
69* not out higest score
24.06 average
155 catches
37 stumpings
Now compare these with the rest!
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why not play broad as a batsman
1.strauss
2.cook
3.vaughn
4.pietersen
5.bell
6.broad
7.anderson
8.prior
9.jones
10.sidebottom
11.panesar
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A 'Key' appointment, baz... very good :-)
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Excellent, cityboy105 (#75)! The time for objective debate anout the selectors is over. They're not listening. Even if they were and decided to do the noble thing, helpfully suggested by many bloggers, namely fall on their swords, they'd probably miss.
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Five bowlers? Which other test team plays five bowlers? South Africa? But Kallis averages 57 with the bat. New Zealand? How many tests do they win? Australia, Pakistan, India and Sri Lanka don't. Why this obsession with five bowlers in England? It's mystifying.
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thanks, oldmanwillow ;-)
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What idiot said play Broad as a batsman? What signal would that send to someone like Shah or Bopara who are proper batsmen and waiting patiently for their chance?
If Broad wants to be an international then it will be as an allrounder but unfortunately that means you have to be able to bowl!!
He bowls like a pudding and would struggle to bowl his old man out!
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I am of to the land of "Gazetta dello Sport" for the next two weeks and will miss too much cricket. What I won't miss is the nonsense that appears too often on these threads.
There was one guy who was upset about about cricketers enjoying themselves whilst off duty at Edgbaston. Ever played sport to a standard when you went on tour? Nuff said!
Others who think Stuart Broad is an "all-rounder" - On current form he only stands a chance as as a batsman at No8! I'll leave that for you cricket lovers to mull over!
Commentators often over-praise sportsmen for contributing in areas outside their supposed speciality. Mr Broad has recently been in the good books of of cricket commentators and therefore he has received some good treatment. It doesn't make him an all-rounder!
I beleive the selectors are pretty much in the right area, but!!! There is often a "but" and in this case it is Vaughan. It is my beleif that a team is picked and then the captain (out of those selected) is chosen as the captain. Time has moved on. No longer is the captain important in selection.
Select a team and the best captain amongst them gets the job. Hopefully he will then fill the boots and keep his position in the team!
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Postirrer - No 14
Vaughan (21), 942 runs at 64,49,20,50
Your point re Vaughan would be better if it was factually correct.
In the last 4 Series Vaughan has scored
833 at 49, 36, 20, 50.
Two of those scores were against one of the poorest test teams in the world.
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Come on guys, five bowlers cannot be the way forward!! Look at the best teams in the world: Australia, SA, India, Sri Lanka; all play with 6 frontline batsmen because if you dont get runs on the board then you dont stand a chance of winning test matches. This is not limited overs where each bowler can only bowl an allotted amount, its called test cricket because it 'tests' players to the maximum of their abilities.
Flintoff is the dilemma. Everyone says that he cant have too much of a work load in a four-man attack, if thats the case then he's not fit enough and should not be picked. Bowling all-rounders dont get picked to bat at 6, seven is the highest and then you need to fit in a keeper too!! This attack should be perservered with for this game, and if it fails then Hoggard, Jones, Harmison, Broad and co should be breathing down their necks.....
As regards the batting, England were always going to recall Collingwood as the selectors have proved they dont own a pair of balls between them!! Shah, Bopara, Key and co have all been proving themselves in county cricket for the last couple of years with no reward and England have not been racking up scores of 400 plus for some time now. I think we as England fans are going to have to ride out this period of mediocrity until an Ashes thrashing is dealt out next summer and then hopefully managerial heads will roll and forward-thinking change may be on the horizon. Sub-standard coaching/selection like thiswould not be tolerated in other countries or other sports for this long, surely....
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Aggers, how much longer do I constantly have to read your absolute drivel!!!
Michael Vaughan in THE ONLY person that can captain England!! He provide excellant leadership, he never goes too over the top when England win, he never gets too down beat when England lose. He is realist, down to earth and honest. He dropped an arrogant, smug, cocky Steve Harmison after a quite ridiculously selfish interview in New Zealand with Nasser Huusain, and what happened when he wasn't there in Australia??????
As for your utterly ridiculous comment about Stuart Broad being unlucky!!! He bowled like a Saturday afternoon trundler in the last test!! He was limp, weak and lacked penetration. In other words he was utterly useless. The only thing he has going for him is that he can bat at number 8, well that is no reason whatsoever to carry dead wood. Even Pattinson looked a better prospect at Headingley than a powderpuff Broad.
Well done Michael Vaughan, on dropping Broad and not picking Harmison. He is the best captain around, just remember 2005 everyone. He provides inspiration to the team and the rest are never going to ever come close to him - Wake up Aggers!!!!
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There is something a bit wrong with the England set-up at present; the expectation of victory - carefully engenedered under Fletcher prior to the 05 Ashes series, has gone and I don't attrribute this solely to Alec Stewart's retirement. Rose tinted spectacles seem to have been distributed freely.
Returning to the same well - Collingwood, Harmison - seems timid. The brutal fact is that Flintoff can no longer bat at test level - so we have no all-rounder - and no-one has shown the correct balance of batting stickability and glove competence required in a wicket-keeper.
We need an all-rounder. The candidates seem to be Bopara, Broad and Collingwood. Bopara's bowling is weak; Broad's batting is not consistent at the highest level yet (where does he bat for his county side?) and Collingwood's failing on both counts.
I would experiment with Bopara and stick with Ambrose. A wicket keeper needs a run in the team. They have tried with this guy; they need to persevere.
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I just cannot understand why people keep saying Michael Vaughan is the only man for the job. No he is well past his best and has been overtaken. he is too pridictable now.
I have just seen him on the TV moaning that our batting has failed. He and Paul Collingwood have had the major part in that game.
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Who do you suggest then undersealevel???? Strauss, hahahaaaa!!!!, Key???? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!!!
I'd be interested to know who???
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If the selectors wanted to bolster the batting then why bring Collingwood in when he's hardly scored any runs recently. They should have taken a chance on either Owais Shah or Ravi Bopara, both who are in good form.
In my view I think Bopara could be the long-term answer to the "all-rounder" position at #6, then with Flintoff at 7, it allows for England to play the best gloveman at 8, either Read or Foster.
I can't honestly see a better England captain than Vaughan at the moment, but if we lose this series badly, the selectors should start focusing on a new long-term replacement. For the moment I would bring Bell in at 3 with Vaughan moving down to 4 or 5.
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Rob Key yes. Allmy views on comment 47. Right or wrong
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Totally wrong, wrong, just WRONG!!!
Key is not, and will never, ever be, an England class player. He would be another Chris Cowdrey Captain - on other words a complete joke!!
Vaughan is proven, still has the ability, (if not the current from) but he scored runs agains New Zealand and he WILL score hunderds of runs against SA in the next two tests.
Next, people will be saying Stuart Law could be England captain!! He qualifies doesn't he???
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Flintoff has played test cricket for ten years and taken 5 wickets in an innings on two occasions. He takes on average just under 3 wickets per test match - not bad for a test match bowler but not much more than that, Harmison's records is better for example, why all the fuss, expecially as his batting is now in the useful tailender catergory.
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My son just asked me "Dad what does drivel mean"
An easy reply. Son just look at the postings above by the1jukebox and you'll know instantly.
Vaughan isn't proven, doesn't have the ability, and won't score hundreds of runs against South Africa .
One thing Jukebox and Vaughan have in common, they are completely devoid of reality, form, class, inspiration, humour.
A bit unfair on the humour bit as I haven't stopped laughing since I read the Stuart Law bit.
The truth is the Yorkshire players don't want Vaughan in their side, he certainly wouldn't get in on form or leadership and like England, his confused dotcom style of leadership just messes them up as he has with England.
Key, Shah even jukebox himself would be an improvement on the past his sell by date brylcreem boy.
Baztheace
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Vaughan just doesnt seem to be able to cut it at the top of the order. It seems that Bell seems destined to play at number 3, he has all the shots and class to play there. A simple solution would be to drop Vaughan down the order to 5, if he still cant find form there then maybe its time for him to step down.
The team seems to be balanced with 4 bowlers, but the inclusion of colly is intriguing, is he really back in form? Shah is, and he has been banging on the door all season, he showed his class in a brilliant 75 in the T20 final. He would my pick ahead of colly on current form. The number 6 may be Bopara's or even Broad's in the future, but Shah should be in there for now.
Im interested to see how Sid and Fred play together, both fiery aggressive players capable of tearing any team apart, but will they be able to do it?
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the problem is not with vaughan or any other member of the team , the problem is with the selectors who keep holding on to guys who dont merit their place in the team. in my eyes the shelf life of mv has expired ... the man cant even play straight balls .... lets face it who should be the next captain then if you drop mv ? the only candidate is collingwood.. he is the captain of the one day team and he can put fire in the test team ...
heres what england selectors need to do - 1. they need to make it clear that everyone in the team needs to perform to deserve a place in the team no exceptions.
2. there needs to be a squad of 25-30
players with atleast 3 years of fixtures in mind and players should only be selected from that squad depending on the tours and schedules of the team and pitch conditions.
3. every one should be given a decent run in the team and not chop and change suddenly ( postman fiasco) or due to injuries. even if is someone is dropped from the playing 11 due to lack of form he shouldn't be expelled from the squad but given chance on tour games, warm up matches or county games ( if at home ) to redevelop their form
given the current squad we would need a miracle to gain the ashes. the change is needed now and quick (may be after the SA series ) to develop a squad that would atleast make the aussies job difficult of retaining ashes ....
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after the lords test ,which after all we didn`t loose The selectors panicked By bringing in Darren Pattison and to some extent Freddie . When Ryan was declared
unfit for the second test then Freddie`s inclusion was justifiable . I don`t think
Paul Collingwood should of been dropped ,
who knows what he might of scored if he hadn`t got a diabolical decision from Umpire Billy showoff . Looking at the umpiring so far this series it isn`t unfair to say that England have had a raw deal .Lets hope it gets better . I think it is also time to look at Geraint Jones or James Foster for the wicket keepers slot . Lastly I am with every one who has mentioned Rob Key ,I `d
give him a go at captaining the one day side .
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Just as the selection of Pattinson for Headingley defied logic so this latest selection seems to have involved little common sense.
Previously we had been told by the selectors that in order to prevent burn-out, and to protect his fragile ankle, Andrew Flintoff could only play 'as part of a five-man attack'. This policy has lasted for all of one test!
Even though I'm a Durham supporter I cannot see what Paul Collingwood has done to justify his inclusion. Collingwood should not even have been considered until he had a couple of Championship centuries under his belt. If he fails with the bat at Nottingham, which is a distinct possibility, England will rue the absence of Stuart Broad's lower-order runs.
One prays that Sidebottom's back holds up, otherwise we'll be down to three specialist bowlers. Also Freddie will feeling it after Headingly, where he was over-bowled by Vaughan to make up for Pattinson's shortcomings.
I hope I'm wrong but I can't see England beating South Africa with this ill thought out selection.
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One day side maybe, seeing Collingwood can't hit the ball off the square at the moment. Never the test team, ever, ever!!!
Potentially Cook in teh future, not yet tho, after the Ashes maybe. Vaughan has to stay and we have to back him and stop jumping for the latest person to do well at 20 bloomin 20
No, what am I saying - get Napier, maskeranas, Ramprakash and Shah in, they are great at 20 -20 so they are bound to be brilliant at Test cricket arnt they!! mmmmmm????
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You must be related to Vaughan, jukejokebox or are you really Vaughan in disguise?
Inept, incompetent, out of form,lacking drive or leadership but you think Vaughan should stay and deny young in form,confident players the opportunity to shine for their country.
Vaughan does stay, generally for around a minute or so before departing to the pavillion to blame everybody else but himself for England's shortcomings.
Well as with his banal utterings on Flintoff followed by his grovelling humiliating public apology climbdown, I'm waiting to see the selectors declare their undyingsupport for him at time when he can't bat , can't lead, can overbowl Flintoff as he did in the second test but can pass the buck with unbelievable ease.
Truth is he has the image, looks good on a poster and knows the right people.
Leading England in a fight against the SA's, don't make me laugh. Graeme Smith must think all his xmas's have come at once.
Bazthe ace
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I don't mind Collingwood but you can't drop someone for poor form and then recall them before they have scored a run. Especially when broad can play as primarily a batsmen in his current form.
The worst and most surprising decision made by the selectors is not to pick Bopara. He is a future world number 1 batsman (will be number one within 18 months of his debut, test and one day) and england captain. The English sporting culture is to be scared of the media and public reaction so they always try and play everything safe (ie Danny Cipriani not going to the Rugby world cup). Thats why England will never be number one in any mainstream sport for a prolonged period of time.
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Once again the selectors sent out ludicrously mixed messages. Why is a player, deemed woefully out of touch and in need of a rest, brought back in by stealth without proving that he has regained form. Paul Collingwood has always lacked the talent and technique for test cricket. He is a grafter and a fighter but no more. Can he really be relied upon, under the sternest examination, to dig England out of a hole at number 6?; A worthy double ton against Australia in a losing cause and a memorable effort against Pakistan notwithstanding, Is he a better bet for the future than Ravi Bopara? Dropped in similar circumstances, after a barren run, looking similarly all at sea, Bopara has gone back to the shires, scored a shed load of runs in all forms of the game and is not even on the fringes of the test side. What sort of message does this send out? Are we building towards the ashes or is Mickey Arthur right?
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How hard is it to make sensible deicison about how to beat SA.
I've argued many times before that an in-form Harrmison is what we need with Flintoff, Anderson and Sidebottom as the natural other quicks.
The jury's still out on Monty.
I think it's gross betrayal to drop Broad after what he's contributed (all this BS about he's young is not how the Aussies or SA would deal with him).
Heresy, but maybe he's a better all rounder tha Freddie.
Vaughan is a man who is hanging on by his coatails.
He's not the man he was and we can longer carry a Captain.
How many times do we have to reiterate this same old mantra.
Colly is a great guy but in woeful form.
It's sadistic to pick him.
Wake up England.
We're all too nice to each other so let's get a Mr Tough Guy in the frame who is not afraid to make tough decisions based players fit for purpose.
Drop Vaughan, Strauss and Monty.
Bring in Harrmison, Shah, and keep Broad as our natural all-rounder.
Swann for Monty.
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Have to agree pervoe111.
Bopara is proving himself in the right way, scoring loads of runs and impressing everyone except the selectors, same with Shah but when the selectors have "fixtures" in the England side like Collie or Vaughan who just aren't good enough, then all the bright young talent for the future is being denied the opportunity to step up and show it.
A sad enditement of an out of touch selection policy
Baztheace
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Baztheace - all I can say is wait until after the final test.
I remember voices similar to yours when we last the first test to New Zealand in the winter - they said all the same stuff, Aggers was spouting his usual stuff too - then what happened???? oh, they won 2-1, well there are 2 tests to go, and Vaughan loves a fight
I'd get your money on a Vaughan ton and win by at least 100 runs. Sidebottom is back, the SA's hate him!! "Toploader" crank it up, rattle some cages and knock over the top order (Don't believe the bad back rubbish, he's 100%), Virgil will score lots of runs and everything will be rosey in the house of Baztheace
Just wait and see Bazzler
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Where does Ambrose stand in the rankings as a pure keeper - surely not at the top? If England pick their best players then they might have a decent chance. (Foster, anyone?)
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the1jukebox- Are you mental?
I can't believe that Collingwood is back, having been dropped due to lack of runs. How can his selection be justified? On the strength of his 30 odd in a 20-20? He has been brought back at the behest of Vaughan to preserve harmony in the dressing room. What rubbish! Bopara and Shah must be fuming. Why have selectors kept faith with Ambrose? His keeping is not flawless and his batting is technically deficient. Will people stop bashing on about Stuart Broad please? He may have some potential, but let him learn how to bowl players out in the county game. Test matches are for the elite players in the country, not talented tyros. Boycott said last week that 'there's a bit of Sobers about him'. This is symptomatic of the media bandwagon surrounding Broad, who btw hasn't scored a first class century and is averaging 96 with the ball against SA. The only link to Sobers that I can see is that he was smashed for 6 sixes by Yuvraj. Finally, does Giles' involvement with Warwickshire and his role as selector constitute a conflict of interests? Ambrose is a Warwicks player, is he not?
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England could have the 5 man attack, and have a decent batting order. The selectors are just too dumb to work it out.
I reckon the 2 opening bowlers should be weighing in with 10 wickets between them, while the other 3 bolwers take the other 10. If England played 2 DECENT pace bolwers, who each got 5 each in the match, you could then have Flintoff, Broad and then a spinner (Swann is my pick) getting the rest. Sidebottom has been taking his share of wickets when fit. Anderson is far less convincing however.
Prior's glove work is ok, and has been exaggerated out of all proportion. All keepers miss the odd one. Hell, the slips miss 'em too, but they don't get thrown out of the team!
My team would be.
1.Strauss
2.Cook
3.Bell (c)
4.Pietersen
5.Collingwood/Bopara (0or1)
6.Prior
7.Broad (1,1or2)
8.Flintoff (2,1or2)
9.Swann (1,3)
10.Sidebottom (3,2)
11. Jones/Harmison/Hoggard (3,2)
I've put in brackets what we should be expecting from each bowler in each innings. It all looks so easy. Everyone knows their role. We have a balanced team with a deep batting order that should have no problem getting at least 350 on the board.
It's called clear thinking. Shame the selectors (Vaughan included) are so far up their own rear end's that we'll never pick such a team, put it into practice, and reap the rewards. Hey ho, at least i save my money from going to watch the current shambles, either on sky or live.
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Hey Jukejoke,
I'm beginning to warm to you and your great sense of imagination. Vaughan loves a fight? Yeah I saw him wrestling with that umbrella during the interview and it was a good contest, glad my money was on the umbrella!
England to win 2-1 then! Graeme Smith hiding under the bed covers with fear?
Time for bed for you JJ, pull that Willie Winkie cap of yours over your eyes
and nod off into dreamland , you know that place where Vaughanie lasts longer than a minute at the crease , the sky is blue and England's top order score loads of runs with Bopara's, Shah's and Key's faces pressed against the windows looking on in awe.
La La Land.
PS Did you know Stuart Law is the skipper of La La Land. Sleep well JJ
Bazzler
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Forgot to mention. Prior should be brought back. He had one poor game against Sri Lanka (a game which he saved along with Alastair Cook). After the preceding game against SL, in which Prior scored two big half-centuries, Aggers wrote that he could be a 'thorn in the side of the Aussies'. One poor game with the gloves saw him replaced with the very mediocre Ambrose. He is the only keeper of the current crop who can bat 6 (he averages over 40 in 10 tests).
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Hi, this is a silly team.
Can anyone tell me what benefit the team gets from bringing Collingwood in for Broad? The bowling gets worse and on this seasons evidence we lose about 40 runs an innings as well! Absolute lunacy, so common practice for the England selectors really isnt it?
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Curiouser and curiouser.
Collingwood was dropped for not scoring runs. What's he done since to warrant re-inclusion?
At least heartless "couldn't be bovvered" Harmison wasn't chosen.
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This idea of 'Horses for Courses' is a nonsense. You Pick your best 11 players, and being your best eleven they should be able to adapt. If a bowler can't control his action enough to pitch it up an extra foot if needed then he is probably not world class.
Also what is it about English sport and it's reluctance to give youth it's chance? In Broad we have a talented youngster yet the selectors drop him because they feel he may burn out. I wonder if the same thought process ever entered the Australian selectors head when Warne burst onto the scene or the West Indies with Lara or India with Sachin Tendulkar? i think not! Why do you have to be 27 with half your cricket (rugby or football) career behind you before you are considered ready?
p.s. I burn out far more quickly at 36 years of age than i ever did at 20
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Surely it's obvious - Broad instead of Collingwood!
Broad is the man in form with the bat, more likely to make a score than Collingwood at present. At the same time he makes for the 5th bowler, always a better bowling option than Collingwood.
Now that's not rocket science, it's common sense - surely?!
It seems to me that the main problem is lack of objectivity on the selectors part. False loyalties and all that.
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Lazy blog Aggers. It is understandable, though. Like the selectors unless you and we become more radical we get enthused about the occasional good performance and settle for mediocrity. Aggers, you watch more cricket than most, surely there are some bright stars out there ready to perform on the big stage. The patience shown with the youngsters like Cook are to be applauded but to leave potentially Test class cricketers to fritter away their skills in the limited overs game will not produce long-term test match hardness. Where is Ravi Bopara going, for instance? Or Owais Shah. A few one-dayers is not going to prove their worth.
Aggers, tell us what is in your heart and forget the 'p.c.' approach.
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@ 98
"Australia's captains have never been great batsmen"
is this serious? so ricky ponting doesn't qualify as great?
Why are there people posting on this blog to complain about people complaining, surely that's half the point of a discussion board?
Anyway, there's plenty to complain about due to the ineptitude of the current selectors, my team for the Oval would be:
Strauss
Cook
Bell
KP (c)
Shah
Prior
Flintoff
Broad
Jones
Anderson
Panesar
5 bowlers (give broad time) and batting to 8/9 - if it's a really hard bouncy track I'd put harmy in for monty or broad
finally does anyone have stats on how many chances prior put down for england in tests?
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Agree with all the comments re Collingwood. The inconsistency of the selectors is maddening - Harmison has been out of the side for seven tests and has had to prove himself in county cricket for half the season to get back, whereas Colly, decent bloke though he is, is out for one token test.
Unfortunately, this is all down to Vaughan. I actually think he should be captain - he is more astute than any other candidate, and when he is in form, he is better to watch than any other England batsman, Pietersen included. But the trouble is, as long as he continues to get low scores, he'll feel unable to drop any other batsman, on the basis that it'll create an atmosphere of "well, at least I've been batting better than you, Vaughanie." Thus the totally unfair criteria by which bowlers are judged (and dropped) and batsmen are judged and retained, even when they're not performing.
Recalling Collingwood is a real shocker, both on cricketing grounds - what's he done since being dropped? Zilch - and in terms of the message it sends out to those batsmen knocking on the door. Owais Shah should have had a run in the side by now, but is being kept out by the old boys' club. Regardless of the cricket, there's something seriously wrong with the team set-up if they are so reluctant to accept a newcomer - eg Pattinson or Shah. Whether Pattinson was a bad selection or not (and he certainly didn't bowl worse than anyone else), he should have been made to feel welcome in the team, and not undermined by his captain. From everything you hear , it seems Vaughan is the main reason Trescothick retired from international cricket as well.
It's a difficult one, because as I said, I think on the field, Vaughan is a great captain, and a pleasure to watch when batting well. But his off-field decisions and actions are definitely not helping England, and I suggest that if we lose this series, Andrew Strauss should be made captain. I think he'd be a safe and capable leader, and not nearly as divisive as Vaughan appears to be.
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broad is the wilkinson(rugby union)
of cricket
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I like Colly but am disappointed with his recall. He has clearly been out of form and should have been left to find some runs in the county game.
There are a number of batsmen that are in better form (Prior, Key etc) and would have been better choices, but stung by the Pattinson decision its hardly suprising our selectors have gone for the "safe" choice.
As for Harmy even being mentioned as an England bowler.... Why? Must we hark back all the time to fleeting former glories and forget his terrible form for so long? There are plenty of English bowlers that deserve a go, poor old Chris Tremlett, his ablilty to get bounce and bowl a consistent miserly line are clearly not what England need in test matches.... oh wait! Yes we do! He even takes the odd wicket.
The Pattinson decision has stung the selectors and made team selection even more predictable. My message to them is: Get some balls! Preferably ones that seam, swing, bounce and take wickets.
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Vaughan has always achieved when the pressure is on, so lets see what he does in the next 2 weeks, in my opinion his eyes are firmly fixed on retiring after a successful Ashes campaign next summer.
If he is going to be replaced the only candidate is the unproven Rob Key, who would also take his place batting at 3.
Struass did a good job against Pakistan, but his subsequent form counts agianst him, everyone says Key is a better player than when he last played for England, he seems a relaxed type of guy who is comfortable in his own skin and has had success captaining the lions.
If any one is to repalce Vaughan they must do it after this series or wait until post Australia
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Its tiring listening to people talk about formats.
In the Winter Ashes their was talk - from you amongst other Aggers - of needing a number 8 and five bowlers - hence we ended up with (a poor bowler just back from injury) Giles playing instead of Panesar.
Now suddenly lots of people are converted to the 4 bowler format and hence a player batting well and classily who will take a couple of wickets despite tiredness (Broad) is replaced by someone (Colly) who will probably take no wickets and though notionally a batter hasn't been able to buy a run all summer.
The whole point is that at the edges pesonnel are more important than formats. Meesages are also more important. Your message is that Vaughan's place is on the line and yet bizarrely you are content with the decision to bring back the even more poorly performing Colly.
You have an even more bizarre formula for captaincy which is that this miserably performing player is the only real contender on the basis that a man who was done well overall in 8 tests since comeback is still 'feeling his way'!
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Worth checking out Vaughan's response to Aggers. Puts him in his place a bit...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/7532521.stm
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Alex - I don't think Vaughan so much puts Aggers in his place, rather shows him disrespect and ignorance, which is hardly the same thing! He wasn't even joking; he thought Aggers had never played for England.
3 tests only it may have been, but to have been picked for your country still makes you a fine cricketer and certainly qualifies Agnew to ask questions.
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Let us watch what happens before condemning the selection.
I suspect Broad has been left out to rest with an eye to possible reinclusion at the Oval(remember, the two matches follow each other quickly and fresh bowlers may be needed)
For this game apparently it is felt there will be enough in the pitch for 4 bowlers to do the job, in which case bringing back Collingwood makes sense.
In any case Broad has hardly threatened to demolish the SA batting lineup so far.....
Harmison was probably never likely to play unless another bowler turned up injured.
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I don't have sound on my PC - can someone tell me what Vaughan said to Aggers?
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Comment 93, Bobroth, referring to 83, Trickyseampicker:
Even in it's easily accessible position as the lowest form of wit, you have only the most tenuous grasp of sarcasm. Your statistics don't bear close scrutiny either.
I was in Australia for the 2003 Test Series. Vaughan was magnificent, his knock of 151 in Melbourne turned the match - when the series had already been lost.
Since then, had he not been captain, his form with the bat would have seen any other player dropped. His substantial scores are rare exceptions, not the rule. There have been several top order batsmen dropped during his reign who have contributed more
than him in games lost.
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On Stuart Broad - I agree with him being left out: he's a young bowler who is still learning his craft. I think he will develop for England, but we have to look after him at this stage or he'll just end up as another run-into-the-ground county bowler.
Such an approach for a young bowler is not without precedent. The Aussies did exactly the same thing with Brett Lee, and he has developed into a real asset for their team.
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Just a word in JA's defence: the Test selection policy in the 1980's was a joke and Aggers had some outstanding seasons, I forget the stats, but they can be seen in his book '8 days a week' and he suffered by not playing for a fashionable county. Put that in your pipe and smoke it Mr Vaughan with your policy of selecting mates!
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Basically England left Harmy and Broad out because the Edgbaston pitch will not bounce. Broad needs recharging. It will suit bowlers who can pitch it, seam, swing and move it such as Anderson, Sidebottom and to a degree Freddy. Freddy will check out the bounce but will have the sense to pitch it up on a length.
It does beg the question; can Harmison only bowl on Test grounds with bounce; such a The Oval, Old Trafford; Perth, some west indies and south african tracks; and forget Harmy for wickets like Leeds, Edgbaston, most of India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka???????????
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A38901602
I found Vaughan's response to Aggers completely disgraceful of a cricket captain. He ought to be ashamed that his poor batting has been brought up 8 or 9 times after he became skipper.
I hope the selectors note his arrogance and drop him from the next Test onwards. With Vaughan in the lead, England will not get any Ashes, only excuses. Even in the 2005 Ashes, he was the 4th or 5th in the batting charts and did not deserve the credit he got for the narrow wins.
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Selecting Harmison and Anderson in the same team would certainly mean we would bowl the opposition out twice, however it would also mean they would score 1000 runs in the process.
Harmy is being "man-managed" well to make him really hungry for a last hurrah against the Aussies. That's when we'll need him determined to prove himself against his tormentors from last winter.
I think it's right to rest Broad for genuine fatigue reasons - he looked knackered despite the great batting at Headingley. A future all-rounder, and tall batsmenmake quite a different challenge for bowlers in the modern game.
Ambrose should probably go and someone new should be tried. Both his and Prior's 'A' game is only just good enough - nothing special. If the Oval is a dead rubber, try to see if someone else can step up.
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Is Vaughan a 'really' good captain, or just an average one? I think he's average, and i think he should have gone after that last test. Where was his great captaincy when we needed to take the FIRST test at lords by the scruff of the neck on the sunday??!? There was no fire, no desire, just nothing there. It was pathetic.
The role of the captain has been exaggerated, like we couldn't win without him! Fact is, we won all those test matches and series in a row because we had a team full of confidence at the peak of it's powers - it didn't did captaining!
The sign of a great captain is to win tests when you're on top and dig deep when you're under the cosh. Vaughan does neither.
Too much seems to be about 'politics' and egos, and the strange goings on behind the scenes, with Vaughan, the selectors and so forth, and, quite frankly, it stinks!
I actually hope England get stuffed again. That's how bad it's got.
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Vaughan, backed into a corner by condemnation throughout the UK in regard to his inadequate, uninspirational captaincy, his inability to score runs (which he is in the team for), his propensity for daft disloyal comment (See Flintoff incident) and his Stan Laurel shrug of the shoulders as SA wiped the floor with England in the 2nd test, lashses out at Aggers with his usual inaccurate hissy fit style.
Graeme Smith must be laughing his socks off as to why England are captained nby a complete laughing stock. Even die hard Yorkshire Nationalists think Yorkshire are better off without Vaughan, let alone England.
Baztheace
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Rich_Owl - he basically turned Agger's question about him being under fire for a lack of runs around and suggested that Aggers hadn't even played at Test level.
Aggers pointed out that he should check Wisden for his three Test appearances.
It was all good humoured really. I found it amusing more than anything else as did Aggers I think.
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I thought Vaughan's comments were disgustingly arrogant, and the 'faux-jokey' tone made them even worse. His amateurish use of spin would be more at home in the New Labour party.
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Vaughany used to be such a nice chap as well.
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I have to say that when I heard Michael Vaughn's comments, this morning, I thought that they were quite unnecessary and gave the impression of a desperate man trying to deflect attention from his own poor form. There is a difference between the sort of banter that might pass between former players (not least Sir Geoffrey and his colleagues) and an appropriate response for a current player to give to an interview question. They were also irrelevant: Michael Vaughn's form has been poor, recently, as well as during some other periods in his career and that would be equally true whether Aggers was a club cricketer of limited ability or the greatest test match all-rounder the game had ever known.
As for the batting line-up and captaincy questions, I think that there is a lot of merit in fireyballoonhead's suggestion of Robert Key. When Key first took over as captain of Kent, I must admit that I was a little dubious, not sure that he was quite "captaincy material" and I am very happy to have been proved wrong. Kent have gone from strength to strength, Key's fitness has improved and his batting has matured. In addition, I have constantly been impressed by interviews and the like, in which his knowledge and reading of the game are highly evident as is his pragmatic attitude.
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It is such a pitiful truth that so many sportsmen are gifted so highly in physical prowess and less so in the mental attributes. One always thought that Vaughan was an exception, which is why he kept the captaincy ahead of more gifted cricketers with more talent and better records.
But his record shows that neither his personal contribution with the bat nor his captaincy justifies his continued selection, or his obvious arrogance.
The captain situation is a mirror of the wicket-keeper debacle.
If the requiremnt is for a wicket-keeper-batsman not a batsman-wicket-keeper then the first requiement is that they can keep wicket.
If we are to have a batsman-captain, then the first requirement is that he can bat - Vaughan has been found out - he simply has too many technical weaknesses to last in an era where coaches examine every top player's technique down to the minutest detail.
Apart from Strauss, there is no-one in the current team with the nous to do the job, and I recall he was doing a good job with the capataincy and the bat before he was dropped as captain.
Personally I have always liked Robert Key, but the way in which he disappears off into the changing room when things are going badly, at both this year and last year's Twenty-Twenty final rings alarm bells as to his leadership capabilities when things start to go pear-shaped.
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England need extra speed when they are bowling and in-form batters.
so...
1.Strauss
2.Cook
3.Key(C)
4.KP
5.Bell
6.Broad
7.Flintoff
8.Prior
9.Anderson
10.Harmison
11.Monty
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Well defintely the right decision not to select Harmison, I can't understand why he was even recalled to the squad. He's let England down too many times and a liability on tour too.
Broad can consider himself unlucky, though his bowling will have to improve, he'll get another chance.
I can't agree that Vaughan should be selected purely as a captain. The squad should be chosen and then a captain picked from the 12/13. Vaughan's form doesn't warrant a place in the squad, no doubt he's showing excellent form in the nets (a la the World Cup) but his returns in test cricket aren't good enough.
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Why the desire for Prior instead of Ambrose. The best keeper is foster. He displaced Alec Stewart, who wan't unjured or unavailable - the selectors felt he was a better keeper and in my book still is
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How many test caps have you got?
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M.V out now
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If Vaughan can't take a legitimate question like Aggers asked without turning on the interviewer then he needs to take a look at himself. Aggers is a top class correspondent it doesn't matter how many tests he has played in he is the 'personification of BBC cricket' so should be allowed to ask questions that we the supporter want to be answered without fear of being taunted by the England captain. Imagine if every sportsman did the same - sports reporting would grind to a halt if every journalist needed to have played international sport for the sport they cover. It's bad enough as it is when Angus Fraser can be a 'leading' cricket correspondent - the recent ex players with only perhaps Athers as an exception refuse to criticise the current players - in the past serious journalists would have torn into the England Hierarchy for their shambolic actions of the last 2 weeks.
Vaughans comments were bang out of order in my view and he should make an apology to Aggers to show that he is above petty playground responses.
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Vaughan's latest mishap will no doubt add fuel to the fire for those wanting his removal from the team/captaincy
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I think he must have secured his place with that innings, simply magnificent... Like Nasser only better
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I presume no-one is entitlted to critisice Michael Vaughan for his lates failure unless they have say 30 England caps to prove their opinions worth?
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comment 145: "Vaughan has always achieved when the pressure is on". Well, not this series he hasn't. 2, 0, 21 and 0, isn't it now?
No question he was once very good, but that's not the same as meaning he'll be very good again. Much as I hate to suggest such a thing of someone younger than me, but perhaps his best days are long behind him.
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Can we PLEASE have an interview by Aggers with Cock o'Vaughan before he calms down?
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OMG Vic Marks is really in the tank for Vaughan- Vic: he got a nick, it's out.
Aggers is a better batsman than Vaughan I reckon.
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Perhaps Vaughan should have only played three tests.
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After a similar very poor run, Richie Benaud once said of Rick McCosker on getting out cheaply yet again:
"That's rock-bottom for Rick McCosker!"
Substitute the name Vaughan...
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We've had Nick Dougherty criticising Peter Allis in golf and now Michael Vaughan doing the same with Aggers. They should be embarrassed. Michael Vaughan can tell his story walking as far as I am concerned, he's clinging on for a slice of the millions and his best chance is to buy a lottery ticket. Time to go now, pack your bags and walk out of Edgbaston . We'd be better off with 10 fit, focused and able individuals.
Michael , ring this number, 0121 do one !!!
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Can't believe I took the day off to watch this!Middle order collapse. Where have we seen that before!
Vaughan just has to go , his recent record is not good, let's look at Rob Key, good batsman and very good captain at Kent. Well he can't be any worse than Vaughan at the crease.
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Well, well, who would have guessed Michael Vaughan, our non playing captain is out for a duck and not only out for a duck but out first ball. No wonder we have to have seven specialist batsmen at the cost of a bowler when he is in the side.
With an average of about 20 on the last New Zealand tour this guy has been past his sell buy date for some time.
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OMG. Another flop from Vaughan.
Yeh, I expect we will still hear all the Captaincy accolades etc etc, but at the end of the day, if you're averaging 5 v SAfrica, then you don't deserve to be included.
He's supposed to be a Batsman, so lets gauge on being a Batsman.
Errrr..... "you're dropped".
And PLEASE, lets not get into the debate about KP being Captain! Even now, he can only just get his massive ego through the dressing room door.
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Looking from afar, whilst I decided to take a cup of tea, after 25 minutes, I see the BEST so called openers in England, barring 1, are back in the dressing room.!
Total rubbish, no hopers.
Vaughn is a disgrace.
SA to take the Series 2-0.
Sack the lot and start again.
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Vaughan apparently remarked this morning that Broad had been left out because of his bowling which is a bit rich coming from someone who (of course) has taken no wickets himself in Tests of late but has made hardly any runs either. Broad is an all-rounder and a reliable member of the team when included. Vaughan is an embarrassement and has to go. The old school tie mentality which keeps the likes of Vaughan in the side is what is wrong with English cricket and makes us a laughing stock. Bopara, Shah and Masceranus may have the talent but presumably don't have the right type of tie....
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I refer to my earlier comment (No 152) responding to Bobroth (comment 93 yesterday) criticising my call for Vaughan's long overdue sacking (comment 85, yesterday).
Vaughan 0 (first ball)
Fiddle with that statistic Bobroth, we're all waiting...
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Why oh why was the best English batsman from the last test get dropped, yet the captain could not hit a cows backside with a banjo???????
When tyhe aussies find a superb new talent they nurture him and teach him and give him confidence. I feel so sorry for Stuart Broad he has done very little wrong!
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Someone mentioned KP's ego - at least his is based on some sort of foundation of runs scored. The same can't be said of Vaughan.Let's just 'ope 'e go now.
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trickyseampicker I agree with your comments my friend. Yesterday I invited Bobroth to "wake up and smell the mellow birds" and to "take off the vaughan tinted spectacles".
Perhaps, like a good, sensible chap he has decided to take my advice.
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Vaughan, it's up to you. The selectors are clearly too inept or blinkered to see what has been blindingly obvious for years: you are not up to the job.
For pity's sake, don't even wait for the second innings, because you will probably fail again. Just go - Gary Pratt can come on to field in your place and collingwood can take the arm band.
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So people are basing their opinions based purely on looking at the scorecard again. If any of you had actually seen the game today you would realise that Vaughan got a poor decision and could do barely anything about this poor score. Fair enough he is in a poor run but saying this innings should lead to his demise is not fair.
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How can Collingwood be a candidate for the captaincy...just replacing one inept batsman with another.
Bopara for Colly and Shah for Vaughan therefore making Strauss captain.
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Aggers questioned why the Edgbaston Ground appeared half empty - I can tell you! It has nothing to do with the Test starting on a Wednesday but more to do with a) the price of tickets b) the strip search before getting into the ground and c) the extortionate cost of food and drink once you are inside. My husband and I can just about afford to come to one (Oval) may be 2 (Lords) test matches but without being able to take our own picnic, it is beyond our means to enjoy what the various food and drink stands have to offer. I think it is very greedy.
Alison Crusoe from Enfield xxx
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What game were you watching Nickyboje ? He middled a ball he could and should of left and to say these comments are unfair is ridiculous. If the team was picked by "independent" selectors and was based on form and ability alone then he wouldn't of been anywhere near it for ages. Why cant he , the selectors and you see this ? As #189 says he now needs to do the right thing and walk away with some pride still left intact.
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Come off it Nickyboje, Vaughan nicked it. Furthermore it was a nothing shot. He was only half forward and feathered it. It was the sort of dismissal he's become quite brilliant at actually.
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My team would be:
Strauss (c)
Cook
Bell
KP
Shah
Foster
Flintoff
Broad
Anderson
Sidebottom
Panesar
Michael Vaughan must be remebered for the magnificent way he single-handedly bashed the aussies, but that was a long time ago! He has in his time been a marvellous batsman, but its time to go!
My alternative england team would be:
Boycott
Atherton
Hussain
Gower
Botham
Stewart
Allott
Aggers
Embers
Willis
Marks
:)
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PS;
I once played cricket with the real Nicky Boje for Whitley Bay CC!! he scored
154(ish) not out in his first game then retired hurt!!!!!!!!
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What do Smith,Brearley,Atherton and Vaughan have in common and who is the odd one out ? Correct they are are called Mike and captained England. Athers is the odd one out as he could bat a bit.
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Drop him!!! Captaincy should not be a guarantee to be in the team. Bowlers generally set their own fields and there's nothing to stop Vaughny having an off-field influence.
His poor form over a sustained period of time has put his place in the team under severe scrutiny, and he hasn't reached the level of performance required for a test batsman. Harmy and Jimmy were dropped for poor form, as was Broad despite his good run scoring. It's time Vaughn was given a "rest" too.
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Frankly it shows that MV is a "Rank Amateur". Well below the belt for JA. It is JA's job to ask questions, even if it hurts!
Imagine a politician asking John Humphrys about his political experience.
I hope that JA asks him the same question after this match - that is, if he gets a chance.
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Hear, hear Poppy Crusoe, well said.
All sport has gone the same moneygrubbing way, but the way cricket supporters are treated is particularly unsavoury and offensive.
it is scurrilous to use 'security and the avoidance of drunken behaviour' as an excuse to rummage through the personal belongings of spectators. They are looking for alchohol not to curb drunkenness but to ensure the hapless supporter, already mugged at the box office, has to spend even more during their stay in the ground. It will not be long before British sport wholly endorses the 'Disney' principal: 'They gotta eat, so make 'em buy it here - at our prices.'
Aggers and his colleagues have been secure in their ivory tower too long. I have seen them eating and drinking BBC funds in their swish hotels after the day's play. They have no knowledge of the real world or real people who have to pay for everything.
If we all turned our backs on the final test of this series, stayed at home, turned our televisions and radios off, they might get an inkling of the importance of the ordinary supporter, without whom they would be sticking their stumps in the grass of the local park.
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I am an Aussie living in the UK and just love the way the English cricket team botches it up time and time again- its hilarious!
After listening to Vaughn on 5 Live yesterday- I was expecting some big things... but a golden duck hehe!!!
And what about KP... Mr Ego himself- only getting a miserable 4?
This ain't sport- its comedy!
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Yes. Black comedy...
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Your earlier correspondents are spot on - Vaughan is not worthy of his place in this team - neither is Collingwood. It is a team seemingly built on nostalgia as opposed to wanting to win a test. No Bopara, no Harmison ... they're having a laugh. Vaughan reminds me of Mike Brearley - he was never worth his place on merit but those days of 'fire proof' captains are very much in the past. Strauss should captain - not pietersn who carrues too much expectation on his shoulders.
Come on selector's - get a grip!
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Well I hate to say it but I told you so, Vaughan's best days are behind him. His presence in the team is not so much a hinderance but gimme to the opposition. We struggle to beat teams with eleven men let alone ten. England can't afford to carry Vaughan any longer, the sooner he goes the better.
Make Strauss captain and bring in Bopara or Shah to replace the clearly out of form Vaughan.
Thanks for the memories but as Steve Waugh did as Australia captain it's better to walk on your own terms rather than be humiliatingly pushed. You've been a good captain and deserve better than that, resign with dignity.
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The Proteas, Kangaroos, Kiwis, Windies and the Sri Lankans keep on introducing new faces in their Test Squads all the time. As a result they have more options when their key players are out of form or indisposed.
Other Test playing countries have not been so bold in introducing new faces on regular basis. Providing test match exposure for as many as possible is something that could be looked into by all the Test playing countries.
Dr. Cajetan Coelho
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Looking to the future, as the current team stands, there will be only one result in the next ashes series - England 0 - Australia 5! there is not one player currently that would worry the aussies.
Indeed, it could be the most embarrassingly one-sided series ever, with most of the tests decided within 3 days! I am worried! why is it that we seem to have no exceptional talents coming through, who have the ability to perform continually at the highest level! ( I dont level this at Broad who has been superb so far, with a lot to live up to given his dad's pedigree!)
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Fazini, I agree worrying times and more than likely we'll come second in Australia but it won't be the carnage you suggest.
Yes , their batting is quality and will no doubt put up massive first innings totals but they still need to get 20 wickets to win a match. They don't have a decent spinner and in Brett Lee only have one world class fast bowler. Johnson, Clark, Bracken, Hilfenhaus et al are nothing to be scared of. We just need some fresh blood to go there without fear. Bopara, Key, Shah, Foster etc and it could be closer than you think.
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Poor Colly. My misery at hearing Colly and Vaughan's dismissals has only been alleviated by the pleasure of hearing Stewie commentate.
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By swapping Broad for Collingwood, they substantially weakened the batting. Broad's bowling is irrelevant -- he should have batted #6, with Flintoff 7 and Ambrose 8.
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If that were to be the case drewster499, i might not be quite so pessimistic. However, we haver to look at the recent/current selection policy an wonder if that will ever change?! If we take anything like the current team we are in trouble! I would dearly love to see fresh faces go up against the aussies and give them a battle!
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Collymore must be praying for a decent knock second innings or his test career is over aka Vaughan. Next Test - Bopara and Shah dust down your pads!!
Ambrose too needs some runs (although I'm not holding my breath) or Foster must come in at the Oval.
Hope these boys prove me wrong, don't care who scores the runs just score em. Panesar anyone?
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Bad selection almost always causes problems for the selectors in the future.
When you pick people who shouldn't be in the side you are asking for trouble - if Vaughan, Strauss or Collingwood make 80 or 100 2nd innings, then everyone will say they are undroppable again (see, for example, Strauss's 100 in NZ in the winter).
But it won't alter the fact that non of them are worth their place in the side.
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Oh dear! This has an all too familiar ring about it doesn't it?
Pre match comments were that it was a flat pitch and that batting first would be an advantage! For whom?
This looks like a 3-0 series win for the Saffers as there is no confidence in the England side at all.
Shaun Pollock made an interesting comment re Ntini along the lines that if he doesn't find any form how long will they retain him in the side. If they were England selectors who knows but I guess the Saffers will pick the form players.(He subsequently got Bell's wicket)
Deep joy another great display from England.
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Hear hear Nevter! Any runs from anywhere would do!! Panesar maiden test hundred would do nicely for starters!!!!!!!!! Think im cracking up - time to dust off the cv and apply for a selectors job!!!!!!!!!!
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Collingwood should go back to Durham and prove he's worthy of being in the team as a batsman/allrounder.
Broad is arguably batting better than anyone else in the squad so why was he dropped? He should be there instead of Collingwood. He's certainly a better bowler and in great form with the bat.
Don't get me wrong I think Paul Collingwood is a good player but when he's in this sort of form then he doesn't deserve to be in the team and must make way for someone in better form.
Ambrose will no doubt let England down again.
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Vaughan must now be the ex-captain, with Shah or Bopara for Collingwood. Therefore can't drop Strauss as he's the senior man and should probably be captain. Selection seems to be based on an out-of-date set of statistics all round.
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Neither Strauss, Vaughan nor Collingwood made runs today. Bell and Cook did. Ambrose hasn't batted yet. If her doesn't make it, the best side for the Oval might be:
Key
Cook
Shah
KP
Bell
Prior
Flintoff
Broad
Sidebottom
Anderson
Panesar
Potential captains are Key, Cook or KP. Harmison or Jones would be next in line
if one of the bowlers didn't perform.
It's weird that Broad was only the 7th bowler used by Notts today (after Shreck, Pattinson, Adams, Ealham, Swann and Patel). Wonder where he'll bat. The teamsheet lists 12 players, five of whom (Broad, Swann, Read, Adams, Ealham) could finish up batting anywhere between 5 and 10.
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Hello Blog! I'm new to the world of cricket (1st ever post) after slowly falling in love with the game over the last 3 years (school put me off cricket good and proper 10years ago). I'm a Kent supporter but have always been more of a footie fan following the mighty Ipswich Town (Dad's team).......now, to me it does not take a brain surgeon to see that the selectors have made a horrendous mistake dropping Broad and re instating Collingwood who seems to be absolutely out of form at the moment. It looks like he (and most probably Vaughn) has had their days as England test cricketers and we should be nurturing the new bloods. Broad is currently a better batter than Collingwood, Ambrose, Flintoft etc....but does not make the team? This coupled with the fact he aint half a bad bowler when in form! I know this has all been said before and I agree with most of the comments on this blog.....I just think if something as blindingly ridiculous as selecting Collingwood ahead of Broad has annoyed me with my very limited knowledge of the game I really do wonder what these selectors are on and what the future is for England if they always revert to tried and tested tactics. Anyhow....back to the game!
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You make the point yourself Aggers that it is all well and good dropping Vaughan but just who can you replace him with as captain? Finding an in form batsman is fine but finding a good captain is another and Vaughan does lead the team well. With regards to the bowlers Harmison has to come in to this team because apart from Flintoff it is pretty pedestrian. I do rate Sidebottom as a better bowler than Anderson though and it has often proved the case with Anderson that he will have one good match every two years or so and he just isn't good enough for test match cricket.
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So, how come Pietersen is not getting any flack - he keeps failing too!
Bumble on Sky: "Michael Vaughan won the does and said they'd have a bat. The viewers are asking, when?"
Priceless.
Why isn't Edgbaston sold out? Wednesday start, Twenty20 or just bored with England?
Probably a combination of all three
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How does Vaughan "lead the team well"? They keep failing!
Strauss did nothing wrong as captain but, if you want an 'off the wall' suggestion, you could do worse than Rob Key who is both inform with the bat and leading Kent well.
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Maybe because Pietersen is clearly our best batsman and even in poor form he outscores Vaughan, Collingwood and Ambrose put together
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I am so depressed. Today's debacle was so inevitable . The so called laymen on here have all , to a man, realised that Collingwood, Vaughan and Ambrose have to go. Period. Why oh why can't the powers that be see it ?? Substitute those 3 for Bopara, Key and Foster respectively and we have a chance. The bowlers are all ok and are being pushed by the likes of Jones, Harmy and Broad which is healthy.
The trouble is I can't find an answer to this apart from making me the England Selector !!! We need one individual who is not part of the clique to make educated judgment calls on the best eleven for England. Once that eleven has been picked purely on merit and form you can then select a captain. This won't happen though as it would be far too radical.
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Vaughan is a disgrace. No runs for God knows how long. Can`t bat or bowl for toffee. Useless in the field. Featureless when interviewed. Go back to captaining the Thunderbirds Virgil.
Give KP a go. A talent like him will always blow hot and cold irrespective of whether he has additional responsibilities.
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Do you think the England bowlers will get the blame (again) for this latest batting debacle? (Because they didn't sneak a few SA batters out before the game actually started)??!!??
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Elsewhere, Broad is bowling at Notts.
2/35 off 10 so far.
Bopara turned his arm over too. 3/19 off of 8.1
James Foster took 2 catches and a stumping.
Just saying ...
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Who exactly are the selectors?
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#217 : cbrew475
Thanks for the info that Broad's playing for Notts today. Does anyone else think it strange that yesterday the England authorities were telling us that he was fatigued, with the strong hint that this was why he'd not been picked for the Test team, yet now, the same day he would have been playing the Test, he's playing for his county?
Have we now reached the stage where reasons and explanations are given just out of protocol, and that there's no need for them to be accurate because nobody believes a word of them anyway?
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Yes, they sound exactly like 'government spokesmen' and just about as credible
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I like Nevter's comments (above, 211):
"Collymore must be praying for a decent knock second innings or his test career is over aka Vaughan"
I've heard of a dog on the outfield, but...
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Ideas for wicketkeeper - Pothas/Sutton?
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Fazini they are a set of t*****s. It`s clearly a Job requirement.The Aussies will wipe the floor with us (AGAIN). To be honest the only good players we have got are Strauss, Cook, Bell, Pietersen, Broad and possibly Sidebottom / Hoggard.
Vaughan, Collingwood = Past sell by date.
Freddie = Degenerating into the new Derek Pringle.
Ambrose = 0.
Harmison = Big girl`s blouse.
Monty = Very average spinner living off fact that he has pledged allegance to England. Anderson = tries but not consistent enough.
Shah, Bhopara, Mahmood etc = Useless.
So we need some new blood
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I always thought David Graveney was hard down by.
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Well that just about sums us up!! :(
Embarrassing doesnt quite do justice!
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Pathetic, embarassing, when will they take pride in wearing the 3 Lions and actually treat their wicket as a prized possession!
Lost for words really!
Bring back Boycott!!!!!
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It feels somehow appropriate that there are more posts on here than runs in England's first innings... on a good batting track.
As an SA supporter it was good not to have Broad coming in at 8, he could have taken the score towards 300 and changed the momentum of the innings.
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Once again, the batsmen fail to perform, and so put pressure on the bowlers to dig them out of a hole...
Where have we heard this before...?
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Whats going to be funny is that after maybe an initial cautious first 6 balls, Smith is going to make us pay!! Its no surprise that most of the worlds best batsmen have their best averages against England! Some say its because we (England) play more testes against them than oter nations. I would disagree, and state that its because we dont/cant/wont bowl them out often enough!!
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By the way i would just like to point out that i am desperate for an England team I can be proud of, not just knocking the current poor effort! If this team actually looked liked it gave a damn it wouldnt be so bad!
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Here we go again! Another pathetic England batting 'performance'. If MV can't hack it at No3 any more then remove him from the firing line. Even a good captain is no use if he's not contributing. And I'm a Yorkshireman fan of his! The selectors are farcical. All the trumpeting about Harmy coming back, knowing full well they'd be leaving him out. For crying out loud get some bowlers back who can hack it - Hoggard, Jones, Harmy - the country's been screaming for 'em to be brought back! What have they done wrong? No doubt SA will yet again demonstrate to England the power of concentration and stickability and pile on another 400/500!!
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Oval, all change please!
1. Strauss
2. Cook
3. Key
4. Shah
5. KP
6. Bell
7. Flintoff
8. Broad
9. Foster
10. and 11. Any two of Jones/ Tremlett/ Panesar/Shreck/Harmison/Hoggard/Anderson
Strauss did a good job when he captained, why not go with him with Key potentially taking over?
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What interests me is how the selectors will turn it round to put the blame on the bowlers again...as usual
Usual story, under 250 in the first innings, let's drop a bowler!!!
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The Eleven changes needed before England`s next test match:
Vaughan Out
Vaughan Out
Vaughan Out
Vaughan Out
Vaughan Out
Vaughan Out
Vaughan Out
Vaughan Out
Vaughan Out
Vaughan Out
Vaughan Out
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Vaughan must stay. His batting quality will return and his captaincy is second to none. Harmison's absence has been a disaster. Surely it is too soon to ditch Collingwood. He looked fairly secure despite the difficulty scoring. I blame Panesar for England's low first innings score. It was a disaster to get himself run out when Flintoff was getting going.
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I know nothing.
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FREDDIE!
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The biggest problem that English cricket has at international level is the same problem that it has had for the last seven or eight years - the fixation with the Ashes. Players, coaches, spectators and commentators are all guilty of thinking ahead to battles with Australia far too much.
We should not be thinking about who is going to take on Australia for a moment. We should be thinking about how we get out of the mess we're in now and who gets us out of it.
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Freddie v Andre Nel, cage fight. Victor?
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Actually, Laodicean2, you may, on a strange sort of tangent be on to something there! We should change the batting order by flipping it upside down! By the time that the opposition have finished rolling about the field of play laughing themselves silly, they might just be too knackered to bowl us out?????????????????????? Oh dear, now im really clutching at straws!!!
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Wombletilltheend: it would be NEL purely cos he would eat his way out of the cage!!
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Fazini wrote:
"Some say its because we (England) play more testes against them than other nations."
No, I think they are right Fazini. England do play a load more "testes" than anyone else right now!!!
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mmmm yeh i saw that typo and did wonder!
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listening to michael holding's 'analysys' of flintoff ...
'he is bowling too many balls that the right handers can hit...'? and THIS after the guy had bowled 7 balls!!! and taken a wicket!!! and only 5 of them to right handers???!!! what planet is he on?
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Agnew you were the worst batsman I have ever seen. You were shaking like a leaf every time you batted. You were also a very ordinary bowler. You were too skinny to hack it. That said you did not deserve to be put down by the Thunderbirds captain. Stand up for yourself man. You have a job to do just like Virgil does. You are a good Cricket critic; Vaughan is a crap captain. Let the loser know what the country really thinks of him. If you are not man enough give Geoffrey the microphone and duck the issue in the same way you would duck a slow left armer. Geoffrey knows what`s what.
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My worry is that as Vaughan desperately hangs on to his place with yet more excuses, as leader he is creating a more general culture of self-pity and blamelessness in the dressing room.
I think the general attitude within the team at the moment seems poor- far too cosy and self-congratulatory. Without wishing to sound reactionary, I would be keen to see at least half the team swapped about for a few games, to bring in some youth and enthusiasm and a renewed taste for competition. The selectors are making daft decisions and muddled swaps at the moment so I think we would be much better to do something wholesale and actually learn something from it. Even if we took a beating we might learn a bit about/from the character of our younger cricketers (ie.Broad) and also break up the creeping sense of cronyism.
Today England's batsmen came out as though they were there to mow the lawn, in stark contrast to Nel who looked as though he was there to find snakes to strangle.
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Michael Vaugn has got to be dropped. He is a good captain but that shouldn't make him invincible. He is clearly past his best and can't but a run at the moment. Send him to Yorkshire and tell him to get runs and see if he can come back. Same with Collingwood. It's not as if there arn't good enough people to come in. Bopara, Shah, Key......
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As with the England football team, the reaction to a bad performance from the management is usually "Don't panic! Don't panic!" followed by ....panic.
I don't think wholesale changes are a good idea. Players' form goes up and down like a bride's nightie, and the best one can hope for is a spell of coordinated good form that runs throiugh the whole team at the same time.
Sometimes good form seems to be contagious, but every player who has proved themselves to have good technique and 'class' will find their form again sooner or later.
Vaughan must be allowed to continue at the helm. He is a classy batsman when on form and a great team leader, which in the game of cricket is almost justification for his place on its own.
There is a case for seeing a serious loss of form in an older player as part of the inevitable age-related decline, but younger players should be allowed to rediscover their form within the team even if it means risking a string of poor results.
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The inclusion of Collingwood is a mystery to me.
Unless Collingwood is going to contribute significantly with the ball why not pick Shah?
Presumably he was dropped to allow him to recover some form. Since this hasn't happened it makes no sense to pick him again.
I'm afraid we've seen more confused selection this season than we have in the previous seven. Not the best of starts for Geoff Miller.
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That's it. Time up. Vaughan must make way.
Strauss' batting did not suffer when he took over as captain. It's time for a change.
And Pietersen needs a kick up the proverbial as well! Lazy, lazy, lazy. Again!
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I would like to apologise to all the spectators sat next to me when Vaughan was out. I am sorry, I just couldn't help vocalising my despair.
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It's now just before lunch on day 2 of test 3, and neither batsmen nor bowlers are performing. There is only one more test, next week at The Oval, before the winter tour to India.
Why not a dramatic and wholesale change for the Oval, e.g.
Key for Vaughan
Foster or Prior for Ambrose
Jones and Harmison for Anderson and Sidebottom
Shah or Bopara for Collingwood
Broad for Panesaar, for the Oval at least
Could this team do any worse than the present one?
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Are any of the England team really indispensable? I think not. You could find good substitutes for any of them. But what better place to start than the captain and no. 3...
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Shambles and inept are the two words to describe the selectors and the captain. There is something deeply psychological about the urge to have in the dressing room only 'OK' guys. Journey men, a 'laff' and 'lads' are the only ones let in. Just have a look at the team's behaviour towards Monty Panesar. A non-drinker, religious and serious-his cards were marked from the outset. Get rid of the selectors. We might then choose on merit.
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Vaughan has to go, he is so inconsistant, and what has he done as captain, beaten New Zealand, well most village teams could do that. Vaughan is resting on his past victories and cannot be relied upon as a batsman. Please don't bring Prior back, he gave away 50 runs in byes in one match, I don't call that being a good keeper. Strauss as captain, Broad back for his batting alone. England are just an average team with no really consistant players, except perhaps Sidebottom, but never as captain as someone suggested. Pieterson needs a good talking too withy regard to being responsible and not throwing his wicket away, he should be dropped for a series until he grows up and acts adult like.
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Sheer Bristish pluck from young Flintoff. These colonials are not quite the all-conquering chaps that some of our more lily-livered critics imagine them to be. Put them under pressure on a yielding wicket and they will surely fold. Trouble is, the entire XI has to find that Dunkirk spirit when the Lion beckons.
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gday cricket lovers as a patriotic englishman living in oz one very important ingredient missing in this england side is a true blue leader a man who sets a rock solid example wether it be bat , mouth , brain, or balls .lessons dont come cheap contact rikky ponting at ACB cheers
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wud the beeb be kind enough to post this previous blog on to the camp in edgebaston as the acb just rang to say pontings ready to help they said they wud send a mask and a baggy green cap over if thats ok.have a pint keep yer chins up lads.
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can yer send my 2 blogs to aggers i luv the blokes com hes a star the best around thanks from oz
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bye the way before i leave yers subject COLLINGWOOD here we have despite his current form 1 of the worlds best all rounders it has to be said wether you like it or not. GREAT FIELDER, TOP BATS MEN, TOP BOWLER, GOOD CAPTAIN, A TRUE BRIT,GOT BALLS, polished he,ll make a great future captain send him away let him take stock of everything get his mind right yer sat on a gold mine in my opinion some might say you cant do both jobs onedayers too if yer think that then groom a real young lad for the onedayers say young broadie. colly will come back stronger yu cant hide class thats for sure. all the best.
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Of course Vaughan will be concerned about his lack of runs, but was it really neccessary for Aggers to send him a text asking how it felt to get nought in a test match? I'm sure that his major regret would have been not to reach single figures to match Aggers' mental age!
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I think Vaughan should slip down the order to No.12. Freddie should take the helm now he's fit again and is obviously the one to fire up the troops. Broad for Collingwood would be the better option on the batting and bowling front, and would show the selectors have confidence in him to become a good allrounder. Oops, that might be wishful thinking - the selectors giving players confidence!!
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Could someone please tell me why dear old Monty - who can't bat for toffee - is picked as a bowler and then given only seven overs?
Frank C
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It appears to me that cricket intelligence is seriously lacking from many of our players but perhaps the main one at the moment is Michael Vaughan. Surely his key role today was to come in, occupy the crease and see us pass the deficit. By coming out and playing an attacking game not only did he fail to do this but he also set the trend for our other batsman. I believe he showed no cricket intelligence in taking this strategy what do you think?.
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I think I may have said it before, in which case I apologise. Everyone says, including Micheal Vaughn, that he is a good Captain.
I disagree.
For me a good Captain needs to be :
1) A fantastic Motivatorm and capable of frightening all in the team, or at least like Brearly making the team feel frightened about the captains psychological capabilities.
2)Leads from the front.
3)A good and varied tactician.
4)Extremely cool under pressure, will not let pressure get to him (rarely)
5)Extremely good at his speciality.
6)Totally respected by his team and in control of all their behaviour at all times.
Other necessary requirements for a successful captain (if the right person has been selected in the first place) are:
1) He must be a member of the selection committee.
2)He must have final veto on selection, (he has to go out their on the field and win matches, if he hasn't got the team he wants, how can he motivate them). If he has the team he has picked and it fails, then it his fault. At the moment there are all sorts of people at fault.
Responsibility needs to rest in one place.
3) He must have the total support of the management.
Comments on current England situation:
Historically 'the management' have 'lorded it over the players', I think it still happens.
The captain does not have enough control.
Everyone in the England cricket team feels like an 'Employee', they may be paid loads of money, but they do not feel in charge of their own iny.
Therefore there is no real 'team bonding', they should feel like the Ausies do, or they give me the impression that they do. I think they feel like an Australian cricket version of the SAS.
To them it is 'life or death' on a personal basis, the English team are 'temperamental prima dona employees'.
We have complained in the past about no continuity, which was true for a period, now the pendulum has swung to being too safe, and then from Nowhere comes Pattinson, probably the worst 'master plan mistake', nothing wrong with the guy, except he is not 'a big stage Actor', yet at least.
Given the mess of the English selection process, this selection decision must have been an enormous demotivator for the current guys, particularly the captain, they must have thought, who is he, where did he come from, our places are in jeopardy, does the management know what it is doing, why bother, we are still going to get paid, we are only employees.
South Africa have an exceptional captain, they have immesurable guts, I think the think like the Aussies ie SA SAS.
We are far to 'touchy feely PC stuff' Its like our schools who dont like competitive sports because someone will 'lose' in a competitive sport! What a load of 'b*******, life is competitive.
Every human wants to win, except the English/British, we would rather 'play the game'
Absolute balderdash!
Can we also get rid of 'cricket speak' and get back to real words! Why does Geoffrey, a traditionalist if I ever heard one speak of corridors. What he means is line and length. Maybe our current bowlers do not understand modern B*******.
The other thing I heard the other day on TMS, was one of the 'pontificators', talking about bowling at a piece of A4 paper, no wonder current bowlers do not know what line and length are, I was taught to bowl at a 'sixpence'. I was born too early, Cricket then did not pay, I would loved to have played cricket for a living, particularly the camaraderie and the competitiveness.
These top earners in England ar 'Woosies', I can hear Boyc's saying that. As he gets older he is getting more outspoken. Congrats to him!
The older he gets the more exciting he becomes, he used to be so 'booring', do you remember? He was good at his job as an opener though. boring or not!
Regards
Neil Hewitt
However things have moved on now in cricket
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