Pattinson selection causes a stir
Today's selection of Darren Pattinson for England is one of the most leftfield decisions I've ever seen.
The chairman of selectors Geoff Miller has clearly studied the form of all the bowlers in county cricket - as he should - and Pattinson came top of the pile.
I've got no problem with Darren (who was born in Grimsby but raised in Australia), but we've got to look at the bigger picture.
The international game is in danger of being devalued if we have many more selections like this.
I captained England 34 times and many of the players under me were born overseas. I'm talking of Allan Lamb, Robin Smith, Graeme Hick - none of them born in England but all fantastic servants for this country.
These were men who decided to make their life in England and bring up their kids here. They were passionate about playing for the three Lions, but Pattinson's father says he's a proud Aussie - and his brother plays for their Under-19 side. Can you switch from being a proud Australian to a passionate Englishman overnight?
I grew up in London watching great men like Ken Barrington, Colin Cowdrey and Fred Trueman play for their country.
Representing England is more than just cricket, more than just a game or a pay packet. It's a tremendous honour, and it should be treated as such by players and the selectors.
Is this what playing for your country has come to?
That's the question I'll be putting to Geoff when he comes on BBC Radio 5 Live later this afternoon...
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I agree Graham, but also what about Hoggard - it is his ground, overcast conditions good for swinging the ball - why wasn't he included? Simon Jones as well, he's back bowling well and taking wickets, even Harmy could have been given another chance. I feel sorry for Tremlett too, he was supposed to be the replacement and we call up an Aussie who was an amateur a couple of years ago. Bizarre.
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I am in full agreement with you , Graham .
I too feel desperately sorry for Tremlett , Hoggard , Simon Jones and Harmison .
In addition , Pattinson's unsportsmanlike behaviour against Surrey last week should have made selectors think more than twice .
What encouragment is this for
the young , developing county players who are proud to eb , and I take care here , bearing in mind my place of birth ! , British ?
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well said goochy,playing for England means more exposure bigger pay days and or course pulling on the three lions shirt!!
I think we've gone too far and this decision smacks of desperation!!!
I can hear the howls of derision and laughter in sydney where this will make massive headlines and again make the ECB look like amateurs clutching at straws.I dont see the diffrence between this bowler and peiterson at all,the horse bolted many moons ago im just thinking what nationality i might want to be next week mmmmmmm!!!!
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Think of the queen, goochy -she's head of the commonwealth, remember! She must be very proud today.
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Come on - some consistency please! We need to decide exactly what rules we are playing to here.
So what makes him an Aussie ? the fact he grew up there from age 6 ??? doesnt that make Pietersen a South African then as he was born AND raised there ? So is Pietersen to stop playing for England ?
We can't commend Pietersen as playing for England and then on the other hand say Pattinson can't play - at least Pattinson was born here and hasn't lived here for X years to qualify.
Lets establish the rules - place of birth, residency, whatever we decide them to be then stick to them.
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I can't agree - just because Pattinson is "a proud Aussie" doesn't mean that he can't be equally (or even more) proud, delighted and enthusiastic to have been selected to play for England.
(Even if I would have selected S Jones myself)
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Rubbish!!! Wake up!
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I agree with BoningtonBoy - we can't say Pietersen is fine and Pattinson isn't. My problem with the selection is entirely on cricketing grounds - it seems short termist, and Moores doesn't seem to have a long term plan. Do we really think Pattinson will be anywhere near the team next summer?
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I don't know, would this be an issue if, for example, the player in question were Andrew Symonds? I haven't seen any outcries against Dimi Mascarenhas playing for England either.
Really, you'd be hard pressed to find an an all born and raised English team at any given time - why complain now?
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Shame for Hoggard.
A man who has averaged around 30 with the ball in each of the last 5 calendar years and whos 22 championship wickets have come at 24 can't find a place on his home pitch on a seam friendly wicket.
In his place comes a guy who has played 11 first class games ever. No grounds to go for Pattinson on the basis of age - he's 30 in a couple of weeks, Hoggard is 31. It's just a very very odd decision.
Hoggy is a legend. Should never have ben dropped. Should have ben recalled.
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Pattinson's background doesn't worry me - it's just a big kick in the teeth for Tremlett, Jones, Hoggard and Harmison.
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Where's Simon Jones's qualification? Last I looked he was Welsh.
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Perhaps you should do a bit of research. Not only was the guy was born in the UK, he's always had a UK passport, which is more than you can say for your Three Lions on the Shirt mates and a fair number of other, more recent, England players . However, he does, of course, play for Notts and not one of the "usual suspect" establishment counties, so that's probably the key difference.
Contrary to Graham's rather snide comments, it's quite clear from Darren's reaction to being picked for the 30 man ICC squad and the Test team that he's very proud and delighted to be part of the England set-up.
It's all a bit reminiscent (but with different excuses) of the reaction to Ryan's call up last year. I would have thought in both cases that their selection would be an inspiration to county cricketers everywhere.
And, incidentally, the Victoria Bushrangers website predicted that Darren could be selected for England after he'd played just 2 matches for Notts. The Australians are rather more prescient than many English "expert" commentators.
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Some of the posters seem to be right: ironically, he has more right to be in the side than others! I guess its the fact most of us haven't heard of him has excited concern and people were calling for changes to be made to the team and no-one envisaged this one in a million years.
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I suspect the only reason Patterson has been picked is because some Lanky supporter on the selection panel wants a Notts player ruled out of their team for a match or 2.
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Please do not judge until we can see what Pattinson can do. He has been selected to do a specific job.Give the selectors a break
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Goochy's remarks are a bit Colonel Blimpish and can, as several have pointed out, be quietly disregarded. The real question he should be putting to Geoff Miller is: on what basis is Pattinson considered the best option? Age? Well, no, since he, Hoggard, Harmison and Jones are all more or less around 30. Experience? Obviously not!!! Right man for the track? Oh no, not when Hoggy's been bowling on it all his life! What's left? Well, just this seasons stats, I guess, which show that Harmy has taken 34 wickets at 23.2 and Pattinson 29 at 20.8 - not much to choose between them - but Simon Jones (with 29 at 13.2) has as many wickets as DP and a way better average than anyone! Conclusion? Four names on four bits of paper in one of Geoff Miller's old sun-hats, and the boy from Grimsby got lucky!!! Cricket - doncha just luv it?
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Whilst none of the comments above have directly said it, there seems to be a sense of this being an awful, tragic decision. Granted, I too would have selected someone else- most likely Jones, or left Colly in and played Flintoff in Sidebottom's place- but I also would have selected someone else rather than Sidebottom when he resurfaced on the Test arena. Let's hope, as mcrceltic points out, that not just the circumstance and reaction are the same as that selection, but the results as well. And who knows, SwindonBadger, maybe Pattinson will be tearing up the Aussies next? Sidebottom was meant to be a horses for courses selection...
Of course, having neither seen the guy play, not heard of him as far as I can remember, there is a small portion of hope in my comments, but let's certainly give the lad a chance.
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Serious double standards here. Perhaps Pattinson should visit the local tattoo parlour this evening. Harsh on Hoggard.
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Pattinson joins an elite list of internationals who have earned two representative caps in the same day......
His first and his last!!
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Is it just me, or does Pattinson look like a lanky Phil Tuffnell? Apparently, he bats like him too - so let's hope his bowling is as good or this could be the biggest selection error since they dropped the blue 'Smarties'.
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Hold on Goochy, how English were all your mates when they started their English playing careers? Surely the accolades they rightfully received came at the end of their careers AFTER they had given service to their adopted country. So in that respect give the bloke a chance.
As for the decision being leftfield I couldnt agree more.
Acadamys, central contracts, squads, team spirit............new bloke from OZ......
What does it do to the spirit of Chris Tremlett ? What a killer for the perennial number 12.
Sounds like the selectors want to make a big name for themselves with a wonder gamble...........
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I was born in Hong Kong and lived there for 14 years, my parents are fully english. I am a proud Englishman and a proud Hong Konger and would be equally proud to pull on either shirt.
just cause he's supposedly a proud aussie, doesn't mean playing for England he isn't equally as proud.
look how KP reacted to his score at lords, he's our one day captain at the moment, so we saying KP shouldn't play?
Just cause your parents move you to another country when your a kid doesn't make you any less english
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Can someone please inform Mr Gooch that the days of looking down on the colonists are no longer with us. I can understand if his comments are based solely on cricketing terms, and not if you are born in Mother England or the colonies.
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I wish I could click 'complain' about Goochies comment as he's chatting rubbish
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jamesfbuk, you might be right - maybe I've been a bit hasty just because I've never heard of him. Pattinson could be tearing into the Aussies next year, and I'd love it if he was. It's funny, though, whenever you hear Vaughan or Moores talking about the 'guys knocking on the door', it's always Jones, Hoggard, and Harmison...
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I don't care about Pattinson's upbringing or nationality. A more important issue is that he appears to have leapfrogged several players who are much better qualified to fill the space created by Sidebottom's injury.
When Sidebottom was called up, it was a surprise in some respects, but ought not to have been given that he had been one of the best bowlers in the county game for a number of years. He clearly had improved much since his first and only test in 2001 and deserved his opportunity when it arose.
Pattinson is some guy who played club cricket until a few months ago and has admittedly been in very good form in the handful of games he has played, but where is the evidence that he has what it takes at test level?
England need to establish a coherent selection strategy, both for the sake of building a strong and stable side and so that players and supporters can have confidence in the process.
The selection of Pattinson looks more as if someone is having a bit of a punt on a guy they vaguely like the look of, and who will presumably get dropped again if he doesn't perform. This isn't the behaviour of a test side who until recently were the second best in the world.
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I find the way Graham Gooch has been going on about Darren Pattinson rediculous - perhaps we should just send back to where he came from eh! (bit of English sarcasm)
Poor lad, it's his first test for England can't we just get give him a bit of support!
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"Representing England is more than just cricket, more than just a game or a pay packet. It's a tremendous honour, and it should be treated as such by players and the selectors.
Is this what playing for your country has come to?"
Remind us again Graham, how many rebel tours did you go on? Seems a bit hypocritical for you to say the above when you turned the tremendous honour down in favour of apartheid riches
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oglidewell - Lst time I looked, the ECB stood for England and Wales Cricket Board, hence Jones is eligible to play for England.
Pattinson is at best average, so shouldn't be picked on those grounds, irrespective of nationality. Hoggard, Harmison, Jones, and Tremlett are far superior bowlers and wouldn't have left people scratching their heads with their inclusion.
Unfortunately Pattinson is not alone in being picked despite his less than impressive history. I thought England wanted to pick a wicket keeper that could bat. Instead they have gone for a keeper who cannot keep wicket or bat. Foster is far more impressive, particularly with the gloves, and is overlooked as he was initially picked at a far too early stage in his career.
Vaughan should also be grateful that he is captain as he would quite happily be ousted from most peoples team selections
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Three o'clock and all's not well. Selection is apparently about 'continuity' and now we know it's not. Three years of mismanagement since the home Ashes today comes home to roost. It's truly shameful what the powers that be have done to English cricket.
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I'm with Goochie - Can you switch from being a proud Aussie to a passionate Englishman overnight?
If he was such a "proud" Aussie, surely on principle he'd refuse the England position, and wait for the call from Australia, no? Smacks of opportunism to me.
Whatever the outcome, even if "John Bull" Pattinson takes 8 wickets, this is a farce, especially as conditions and home ground are Hoggard territory; quite what he has done to deserve this is beyond me.
Rubbish decision.
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What a shock!
I'm a proud Englishman living in Melbourne, who lives and breathes the Vics during the summer months here. And I was amazed when I looked online this evening and found this news! I knew he'd gone to play in England this year, but hadn't even remembered to look how well he was going along.
Darren Pattinson is one of huge battery of fine quicks the Vics have - a good bowler, but not the best of that we have (Nannes. Siddle, Denton and Harwood all ahead of him in the Sheffield Shield pecking order). But he's definitely better than Lancashire league standard - and therefore steets ahead of Jimmy Anderson.
I've got my fingers crossed that things will go well for him; but agree with those who feel sorry esp for Simon Jones; none can underestimate his huge contribution to the Ashes success of '05.
Good luck, Pattinson and England!
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So we have two discussions. A ridiculous one started by Gooch about not selecting Pattinson coas he's an Aussie. Its not the first time, not the last and not unique to England so get over it.
A more sensible discussion is around the liklihood that DP will become a regular Test player. As an England fan first and foremost, I hope he takes 8-30 and shuts everyone up. However this selection sends a serious message out to those who have just been dropped (Hoggy, Harmy), got injured while in teh side (Jones) or who have been doing well in the county game for a couple of years and have been in several squads (Tremlett, Plunket et al). You're more likely to get a test place on the basis of a couple of outstanding matches than on a lot of merely good ones.
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I dont know what Goochy is on about, is the keeper not Australian, a top name batsmen South African!!!! And i think the list of names he mentions as non English born is a little more than three!!! Nassar Hussain??? Hollyoakes??? Caddick??? It seems it is only an inconvienience when they are not big names and guareented to do some good for the 3 Lions
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I'm a notts fan and I've been following Pattinson since he started playing this season and he had stated many times that he is English. He is NOT qualified to play for Australia and has stated that if he was offered a place in either side he would always pick England anyway because he does not see himself as an Aussie.
Give him some support people - i'm torn, I want him to do well, but the loss of Pattinson to England could mean that Notts have lost the chance of winning the County Championship this year.
Finally, like it or not, Pattinson is a good bowler who is consistant.
Oh, and those who point out that Simon Jones has obviously better figures should remember that he is bowling to Division 2 Batting orders and Pattos bowls to D1 batsmen. There is a gulf in class between the two divisions so comparisons can't be accurate
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"Representing England is more than just cricket, more than just a game or a pay packet. It's a tremendous honour, and it should be treated as such by players and the selectors.
Is this what playing for your country has come to?"
As others have said, these words are grossly hypocritical given Gooch's participation in the 1982 rebel tour to South Africa and I'd love to hear how he'd respond to eejits like me mentioning the SA tour.
We live in a time when international travel has never been easier. You will have more situations like this in which someone's eligibility for international honours may be questioned. I have absolutely no problem with Pattinson playing. If he's been born in the UK and has a UK passport, let him play. I hope he takes a hatload of wickets and proves to be an inspired selection.
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oglidewell, the last time i checked its known as the engand and wales cricket board... no-one's questioning jones' qualifications.
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get real. half the team are foreign-born - mostly Saffers - and without them England would be third-rate. but so what? its the modern game; if you qualify, you get picked. and you get picked (supposedly) because you're the best. at least this guy was born in the UK. wait and see what happens, and if he's rubbish, then moan. but don't slag him on "racial" grounds if you're not prepared to ethnically cleanse the whole team.
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So having done nothing all summer to change or develop a stuttering side the selection committee suddenly decides to to stun us by pulling a rabbit out of a hat. Do these guys get paid for this rubbish ??
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I have no problem with where Pattinson was born or brought up, I have a real problem with selecting a player on the basis of 11 first class games. This is a bizarre decision...
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As a proud Australian and a follower of cricket I can well understand how some countries bereft of sufficient tallent will employ fellow Australians. However, we must remember to keep talent available for our own interests.
Alan.
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How can you Goochy complain about Pattinson in comparison to say Ambrose (born and educated in Australia) and Pietersen (and Strauss!!). As somebody else said he has an English pass port and is actually only qualified to play for England.
On his form I'd pick him ahead of Flintoff who could at least have been made to prove himself in county cricket as Jones is having to.
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First up, I would have picked Jones.
That said, I think Pattinson is getting a ridiculously rough ride simply for agreeing to play for his country. Re. Gooch's comments, I - like most of the people above me - don't see how the fella has any less right to play for England than others in the team. Some reason or logic wouldn't go amiss from a former England Captain.
Re. his selection ahead of other worthy candidates: why not? He has performed well this season, his returns would appear to be better than Hoggy's and are very similar to Jones' - the difference being that he is bowling at better batsmen than Jones much of the time. The reason that I would rather have seen Jones picked is simply based on the fact that I think he has more experience and would bring more confidence. I haven't seen much of Pattinson like many people (probably the main reason why there is such an outcry) and so can't really make a judgement on him until I've seen him play in this match. I'm not sure how other people can say he doesn't warrant a place before he's even played a match.
Finally, please can people have some common sense regarding their comments about Geoff Miller - do they honestly think they've seen more cricket, know more about available players or have more information to hand on which to make a selection? He's not trying to pick a losing team. He's been criticised for being too consistent in his selection, he's now been criticised for what is virtually the opposite offence.
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Alan, as a proud Australian, would you play for England if they called?
Anyway, let's see how he bats first. He's on...
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I think playing anyone playing for England should have spent a large chunk of their life here, not just the residency requirement or being born here. It's about this country producing decent cricketers not just taking the finished product from somewhere else. If we had 11 rubbish cricketers all born or raised here so be it, at least it highlights problems in our system. We already have a South African and two Aussies in the team.
Kevin Pietersen is a great player but he's not English, despite how many three lion tatoos he has!
The situation is just as bad in rugby union where England are picking players who have only been here for three years and already represented other nations. What's the point of international competiton if you can just pick and choose anyone regardless of their nationality or national allegiance.
I agree with all those who say that Hoggard, Harmison or Simon Jones should have been recalled.
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Hang on a minute!
Pietersen and Strauss were born in South Africa and Ambrose was born in Australia!
I don't see anyone questioning their loyalty!
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I think that you need to give him a chance, he may well become a proud Englishman. I know this from experience, as a Canadian Cricket fan, I watched as Canada recruited John Davidson, who was born in Vancouver Canada. He moved to Australia with his Australian parents when he was a year old and didn't come back until he accepted the offer to join Canada's team. He was playing professionally in Australia, and still lives there, but have taken his family on vacations to Canada, and never misses a chance to represent our country, I believe that he was our Captain for the last World Cup, and is certainly on of the best cricketers to play for Canada.
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What happened to Harmy, Hoggy, Jones and even Mahmood? All of them in decent shape and taking wickets...and proved to at international level! I have no real problem with the Pattinson he looks a good player based on part of a season, but unproven in the long run and internationally. There were better option out there, especially being at Headingly and over cast, I bet Hoggard dreams of that!
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Do you think they didn't pick Jones because they had Flintoff in who has suffered similar long term injury problems.
Do you feel to have 2 in at the same time against a team against South Africa might be too much of a risk in their mind?
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If you cant beat them, get them to join us - simple eh!!!!!!
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Where does Pieterson fit into all this???
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I don't know why anyone is doubting Patterson's credentials. When he was part of the West indian fast bowling team in the 1970s he bowled really well.
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If he plays a key part in bowling out the South Africans then who cares. It seemed obvious from the last test that the South Africans had adjusted to our pace attack and it's a good idea that Flintoff and Pattinson come in to add some new length and line for them to think about.
It may be short term-ism but would you rather lose 5 tests picking a squad that aren't ready or win 5 tests by picking the right men for the job?
I'd have loved to see Jones back but if this guy wants to play for England his commitment should not, for now, be in doubt. Let's see how things shape up.
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The story can now be revealed. Darren Pattinson won the "Strictly Come Cricket" contest on the "Today in Grimsby" TV show (cable only). In return for a promise never to tell the truth England coach Peter Moores accepted him into the England side. Comments included Michael Vaughan's "Who the pluck is Darren Pattinson" and Fred Flintoff's "Mine's a large one mate". Pattinson himself, an Australian on a roofing holiday in Nottinghamshire, said "I hope to be back next year to cheer on Punter and the boys to another Ashes whitewash".
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I think we should all reserve judgement on this until Pattinson has at least had a chance to bowl.
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I don't think anyone can seriously believe that Lamb / Hick / Smith etc would have come over to the UK if they'd been able to play test cricket for their original countries. The nationality issue is irrelevant here.
As to whether Pattinson is good enough, we'll have to wait and see. Probably some injury worries about taking a punt on Flintoff and Jones I guess.
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This scenario is nothing like Strauss, Pietersen et al and opinions against his inclusion aren't necessarily "racial"; the guy's a chancer, that's all - he got the chanc to play international cricket and he's taken it, nationality notwithstanding. As quoted by his father (from the BBC OBO ):
"He's Australian, Darren. He is. It's a chance to play international cricket. In all honesty he just wanted a chance to play."
I'm still with Goochie on this - pride and honour to represent your country shouldn't be disregarded just because these are "modern times", and certainly not because you're a chancer...
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To a large degree I agree. But is Gooch implying that Pattinson wont be giving his all for England every delivery he bowls or every ball he faces with the bat?
Petierson has fitted in and I am sure that despite his past, if Pattinson can carry his County form into the Test Arena, he will become a genuine "Three Lions" man in no time.
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I think it's Hilarious.
I'm Australian and keep a close eye on the first class cricketing arena, and Darren Pattinson isn't even a first choice player for Victoria and was a club cricketer for the most part of his career, and to see him get a call up for England is just strange, and quite funny!
Good Luck to him though......
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Well, Vaughan has so much confidence in him that he pulled him off after 3 overs for 16.
Let's hope things improve in his second spell (if he gets one)
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Sorry Graham, but I am affraid that I don't agree with you, although I do see where you are coming from.
I am an Australian and whilst I would never dream of playing for anywhere outside of my home country, I believe that Patterson was born in England and should have the right to play for them if that is his wish.
I think that Hoggard is a terrific bowler and he would have been able to swing the ball, however I believe it is time that england stopped trying to cling on to that 2005 Ashes team and move on. If Patterson doesnt prove himself, then hoggard can be given his place back, nothing is really set in stone, however I believe that they need to rotate players and see how they respond to a test scenario.
Best regards,
baggy-green-machine
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I feel so Sorry for Hoggard who's given tremendous service to England for so many years. He's been Mr reliable in the 5 day game and will never let you down.
Unfortunately, 1 bad game in New Zealand and he's cruelly discarded. In the same period a number of the batsman are allowed to look perilously out of form and have 4 or 5 poor matches without being dropped.
As soon as a place becomes available, you'd think he deserves another chance -especially given his good form for Yorks and the fact that it's his home track.
Instead, we go for a 29 year old with just 11 first class games. I won't complain about him being brought up in another country. That would be double standards as i don't copmplain when Pieterson's plundering runs. However, i will complain about the logic behind the decision and the treatment of one of this generations finest servants to English cricket.
Whatsmore, I can almost hear the Aussies laughing that a 29 year old who struggles to get in their State sides has been picked for England after a hadnful of county games. How embarassing!
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This is a 'heart' versus 'head' question, and whilst the 'head' might come up with comparisons and statistics to make it alright, the 'heart' definitely says this is all wrong. What about loyalty, team bonding, fairness? Cricket is about celebrating the noble human values more than anything else.
I am spitting feathers on behalf of Matthew Hoggard who has been appallingly treated.
In fact, if England get humiliated in this match, despite it not being Pattinson's fault, some form of divine justice will have been metred out.
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Doesn't matter in this casewhere the bloke is from or has lived. He does not have the experience. He'll need to take at least a five for to prove himself. The fact is that we are playing a tough uncompromising side and it screamed out for Hoggard and/or the Jones boy to be picked. Harmy should also be brought back. What do these guys have to do to get back in? The awesome foursome can be back in harness well in time to stuff the Aussies again next year. If they break down again in the meantime that's just too bad, it can happen to anybody anytime. it's beginning to look like Moores should be dropped!
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Well done him for earning his call up. What is he doing with the ball in the pic though; left index finger having a pick?
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I agree that Hoggard must feel really bad about not just being left out but it seems ignored by the selectors. He would not let you down that is so true, so why take a flyer with Pattinson I cant grasp that selection. but with the England selectors I dont think I am supposed to
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Pattinson 3-0-16-0
See blog #20.
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It really does beg the question ... what is the point of depriving counties of their best players under the central contracting system, if they are going to pull a selection like this out of the fire?
The central contract system was supposed to build England into an effective test match unit, by keeping the together as a team and building team spirit. How on Earth does this selection fit in with that philosophy.
Sure he has played well so far in County cricket, but that is only half a season.
Hoggard, Jones and Pattinson all have similar stats, but Pattinson has no test experience. That's fine, if you are picking a 20 year old with one eye on the future, but Pattinson is practically 30, less than 2 years younger than Hoggard.
If this was going to be done, it should have been done against New Zealand, not against a powerful side like South Africa.
I wish him well, and would love to see him get a hatful of wickets, but how damaging will it be to him to not do well in this match and then be discarded, as happens too often to England bowlers.
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I agree in principal with Goochie however this is not a new phenomenon for English Cricket. Gavin Hamilton, Ed Joyce but to name 2. These are guys who certainly are not English and although plied their respective trades with county sides do not epitomise your three lions. As for this guy Pattinson would you be that upset if we wasnt an Aussie?
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I respect Gooch as a batsman but not as a columnist -- he's talking rubbish.
I am an Englishman (now with Canadian citizenship as well). My eldest son is Canadian but would be entitled to British (and/or German) citizenship. He harbours dreams of playing international football. Who's to say he shouldn't play for England or Germany if he has the talent?
In addition:Basil D'Oliveira, Tony Grieg...oh I can't be bothered. Check the link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_cricketers_of_South_African_origin#England
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I agree 100% with you Graham. This selection is a disgrace. I don't care if he takes 10 wickets and scores a rapid 50. What does this say to the likes of Hoggard, Harmison or Simon Jones? The selectors have made a farcical decision, one which will cost us the match. Yet again you shake your head in disbelief. Really, really saddened by this. Makes you think that it is all about money, tradition, pride, the three lions all count for nothing.
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I cannot fathom why they didn't pick Hoggard. He's had one bad test match in five years and gets dropped.
He was also the obvious like for like replacement for Sidebottom.
Also the batting is far too fragile with Ambrose at six. If they want the keeper to bat that high in the order and score runs consistently then Ambrose is the wrong man
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Sorry would just like to add that this makes us a laughing stock. The Aussies will be laughing into their beer for a long time after this. Shameful.
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Excumbrian describes himself as Excumbrian.
That says it all for me
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What's your point jonti007? It means "Person from [out of] Cumbria".
And proud of it, I may add.
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What on earth is wrong with picking Matthew Hoggard (county average of 22 this season, home ground)? Or even Simon Jones (13), bowling 1st or 2nd change with Broad taking the new ball?
Miller needs his head examined.
And if Pattinson is still around when the Aussies visit next year I shudder to think what they will be saying to him on the pitch. But I reckon DP will be a one-cap wonder - people said that Sidebottom's selection last year was unexpected, but he prospered because he had a 10 year county career behind him. 11 first-class games (esp. aged 29!) just isn't enough...
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It is totally barmy. The ECB and all who sail on her bridge have lost any sense of direction and can't see the iceberg (AKA as Australia 2009) ahead. Giles Clarke flaps around with his facile Twenty20 bonanza in Antigua. Then the basis of First Class cricket in England is torn up for more Twenty20 nonsense with an overblown Twenty20 competition planed for 2010 which (surprise, surprise) involves all 18 of the Counties (The IPl make do with 8 teams). Then the selection panel chooses an Australian Part time bowler on a working holiday in England to play in a Test match. You couldn't make it up. Anyone got a U Boat and a few torpedoes?
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Graham Gooch is quite right.
What sticks in the craw is that this chap never came here to play for England. He has just been parachuted in by the selectors, who appear to have taken leave of their senses.
A one Test wonder, I hope.
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Personally i feel that we should have picked Simon Jones myself, who knows he might be in the team for the third test. Even Hoggard, Harmison would have done quite nicely, i dont know what the selectors were doing when they choose him to be in the team.
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well look at it..... he was born in Grimsby cant get any more english than that!!! where hes lived since then doesnt really matter :)
anyhow hes more English that Pietersen, Caddick, and Hick , the only problem I have with him is the fact he looks average.
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I see nothing wrong with selecting anyone who is qualified to play for England under whatever rules are in place to determine eligibility. It is a fact of life in the 21st century that people do tend to move from one country to another much more than they did even twenty years ago, and it is a good thing that the rules allow for this type of situation. I would be quite happy to see England consider Saqlain Mushtaq if he is genuinely serious about wanting to play for his adopted country. Monty could use the competition if nothing else!
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While the point about selection is totally spot on, I do not get the context of this column.
I agree that proven performers for England in the past, like Hoggard, Jones, Tremlett and to an extent Mahmood were left out. I agree that giving a debut for Pattinson at this age is not the right direction in which English cricket is going (Sidebottom was an exception - he was brought back from a long layoff and he took like a fish to water). I agree that to bring Flintoff back in, there were some hard selection decisions to make. All these are cricketing reasons.
What is the whole thing about him being an Australian or his dad being an Australian? I do not understand what Gooch is saying? Is that even a factor? Did Pattinson's body language look flat? Did he not give his best? Was he given a longer run with the ball?
The fact that he has average stats to talk about, and that is almost nearing 30 is the key point to consider, given that way better folks were warming the benches. The ECB, the selectors and the coach need to get their head examined, as someone has pointed out earlier. Moores and Miller and whoever else they have got in there have truly made this a total farce. They had a great opportunity to develop this side under Vaughan and they blew it really big time. With decisions like this and the new T20 league, it is very evident which way English cricket is headed.
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How can test match records such as Harmison's and Hogards's be ignored on a headingly test wicket that offers a bit.... especially for a 29 year old part time Aussie...could you imagine Australia picking an Englishman of who had a few good games at the start of the Australian summer? I am sure this is some kind of horrible dream and I will wake up tomorrow to find Hogard is actually batting at No. 8 and in fact took 3/41 today...if not then the selectors head coach and captain need to take a long hard look at themsleves....
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On his ties - Pieterson is slightly different because he came her and spent several years qualifying - that shows a sort of commitment that Pattinson would take a few more seasons to match.
On cricketing grounds the statistical case for picking him is not bad. I would have picked Jones though - he could bowl enough overs as part of a five man attak and would bowl them fairly explosively. Harmy has wasted too many chances so don't feel bad about him. Don't feel bad about Tremlett either - he makes a good case but not an outstanding one. Hoggard is perhaps hard done by. Its really a case of selectorial instincts - they feel Hoogard is declining and have obviously seen something in Pattinson - the proof will be in the pudding if he looks good by the end of the match then fine. If he looks poor or average throughout then you'd have to question the instincts.
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Pieterson came here because he didn't believe in a system that said after apartheid there should be some positive discrimination in favour of what he would probably call blacks and Cape coloureds. He didn't think he would get a fair go in the place of his birth. He is a mercenery(?) Let's stop all this nationalistic bullshit...every nation is in it to win it...Pattinson happens to be in the right place at the right moment...what England want is the Aussie killer instinct, Can you buy it?
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What an absolute disgrace. What are the selectors thinking of here? We have the likes of Hoggard, a proven swing bowler who would be ideal in Headingley conditions and he doesn't even make the squad after injury to Sidebottom and a bit of doubt over the fitness of Jimmy Anderson. Instead we now are throwing caps away to an AUSSIE who has just 12 first class matches under his belt. It is meant to be an honour to play for your Country and you should take pride in doing so. Hoggard and Simon Jones, both ashes winning bowlers. Surely they still must be in the top 6 bowlers in the Country. The selectors need to take a good long think about their decisions because they are very questionable!
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On balance, if I were a selector, I probably would have picked Hoggard. He's been bowling decently and it's his home ground. Simon Jones has ostensibly been bowling well but he's in Division 2, there's a fair difference between the two divisions, he's been picking up a lot of lower order wickets and he's still not fully fit. When he fields he only moves backwards and forwards, not sideways - his knees are that dodgy.
Darren was worth a punt. Just because the average twenty:20 and England supporter hasn't heard of him doesn't mean he doesn't exist. It's disappointing that he got 3 overs and was then dropped - the poster above noted that Stuart Broad got more of a chance to improve his average. And let's not forget this was Patto's test debut. He might just be a bit nervous. At the risk of invoking conspiracy theories, can we note that Michael Vaughan is a team mate of Matthew Hoggard's?
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What about if Pattinson performs well in the next match...and the next, and the next one after that (by selecting him, I assume thats what the selectors are hoping for)...come Ashes 2009, he is still in the first XI Do you pick a proud Aussie to play against Australia?
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Well Mr. Gooch, you've certainly nailed your colours to the mast.
Here's a thought: if England, (mighty, mighty Eng-er-land) had not spent most of the last 300 years voyaging to other people's lands and stealing their treasure and citizens, conquering and pilfering then this "sorry" situation would not have arisen.
He's here because you were there. Think about it.
E_C_S
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Earlier in the week, Tremlett was added to the squad as cover for Sidebottom. A couple of days later, Pattinson was added as Anderson was also a doubt. By Thursday, Sidebottom was ruled out, but Anderson fit. So what's changed in two days that Pattinson is all of a sudden ahead of Tremlett?!
I can't believe the uproar over his supposed "nationality" - cricket has always been contradictory in this area (The West Indies is made up of 13 countries; many players like Joyce, Hamilton, Cummins have represented more than one country; innumerous SA/Aus-born guys have represented England). The issue most people want to discuss is why Pattinson has leapfrogged a lot of promising young bowlers, (all of whom have played more first-class cricket than he), and a number of experienced test bowlers who are in equally great form at county level.
And so disappointed in how little the usually knowledgeable TMS team knew about him - what hope for 4-day county cricket when even these guys don't pay attention to it anymore. He's got a hatful for my fantasy team this season!
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Spot on Goochie.
Enough is enough of all these antipodean cricketing mercenaries being selected by England and being employed by the desperate counties.
Another very disappointing selction.
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Pattison's selection once again proved that no particular process is being followed by the england selectors. I feel, they find themselves more important than the players to win a test match/series. They want to show people that they will make odd, surprising selections which will help england to win serieses.
This will prove that they are the men who understand cricket better than anybody else(even than the coach or captain who are directly involved in the execution of the game plan). Sometimes it looks like, they just make changes to prove the existance of the selection committee.
What has happened to Hoggard, Harmison, Jones , Tremlett or Plunkett is not only limited to bowling department only. Thorpe(in 2003), Trescothick, Joyce were the batsmen who did not have any reason to be out of the side.
As far as selecting a new bowler was concerned, they could have gone to Murtagh also who has been performing for a long time in first class cricket. Young McLaren from kent is also doing well. They went for somebody who has not even been the top wicket taker in the season yet. Pattinson's selection will create an unprecedented confusion in the minds of current england players.
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I CANNOT BELEIVE GOOCH IS ABLE TO TALK about how important pride in playing for your country over money is!!!!!
He went on a rebel tour in the early 80's!!!!
He also opted out of an Ashes tour which is the greatest honour for an England Cricketer.
He also managed to deprive England of their greatest player 4 years early depriving him of his best years and England a chance to compete.
He also managed to shatter the confidence of potentially great bowlers like Tufnell et all in his time as captain.
Someone like Simon Jones, who is not only taking wickets at an incredible average this year or Harmison who refuses to be buried by his critics....Now they really do deserve to put on an England shirt. Gooch should have just played for Essex and left England well alone.
Oh yes and the best keeper is Read not Foster. Even if he doesn't play for Essex.
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Pattinson was in the side because of a few weeks of form and a bowling style suited to Headingly. After 3 overs the captain had learned so much more about him he took him off. Funny old game!
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First of all, since when did being born in Grimsby to English parents make Pattinson an Aussie. Secondly, someone commented about other players being seasoned match winners. Pattinson is the only player along with Jones (against the plodders of division 2) to take 5 wickets in an innings 3 times this season. His inclusion is no surprise to anyone in Nottinghamshire. Hoggard, Harmison, Tremlett etc have all had a chance in the past and are now past their best and just to prove I am not biased towards Notts players I would have played Pattinson instead of Broad and brought in Jones. Broad is a good bowler but not quite there yet but because he can bat the selectors will keep picking him. Players should be picked on current form which is why Pattinson has got his chance and not for old times sake. If he had been born in Australia and came over here for a couple of years and made all the right noises about wanting to play for England nobody would have batted an eyelid. So Goochy and Aggers, lay off him and give him a chance.
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Guilty until proven innocent?! There's nothing quite like a bit of good old British negativity!! With attitudes like that our sport will always remain in the slow lane.
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It says something for the state of English cricket that a struggling Victorian State Premier League player leapfrogs so many others to get the gig. Pattinson is at best a handy Sheffield Shield first change bowler but Test standard? Oh dear.
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Hilarious stuff....a second-string Vic bowler walks straught into the English team.
I know the Aussies are good at cricket, but this is rediculous....
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We've got to be careful with comments like this.
We've already had Darren Gough making snide remarks about people with foreign accents playing for England when Yorkshire were expelled from the Twenty20 when playing someone ineligible, who was from another country.
It seems we are suffering from racism within First Class and International Cricket, which si a very sad state of affairs.
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I feel sorry for Hoggy, he hasn't done much wrong, and wasn't as out of form as Harmison when he was dropped, and while it seems the door is ajar for Harmy, Hoggard seems to have played his last game. I'm 31 and if I picked an England X1 from living memory, Hoggard would be close to selection. If some Aussie roof tiler can just walk in and take what should be Hoggy's place, that surely, as Goochy says, devalues English cricket
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what does 12th man tremlett have to do to get back in the side,he must be the longest running 12th man in history...
pattinson who?
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funny that gooch should find this selection soooo shocking. It is nowhere near as shocking or foolish as dropping Gower and Russell in 1993.
And Gower and Russell never weant on Rebel tours.
Gooch said Gower was too old and bought in Gatting!!!!
And that russell could not bat. Check out Russell's batting average compared to GOoch's in the 1989 ashes series.
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Not sure if anyone else has said this already but the selection of Pattinson over the likes of Hoggard, Jones, Harmison is obviously because when Sidebottom returns to fitness Pattinson will be easy to discard from the team. If one of Englands former bowlers was bought back and then performed well it would give the selectors a difficult decision to make for the next test.
Miller is simply avoiding having to make a difficult decision
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Goochie, you were a very fine player and captain of England for many, many years, but I'm afraid you have gone down in my estimations after this.
You say that playing for England should be about more than a 'pay packet'. Have you forgotten that you yourself chose the financial gain of a South African rebel tour back in 1982, a tour which was organised during the official England party's tour of India, over the 'honour' of playing for your country?
And what exactly gives you the right to turn around to a man who was born in this country, lived the first six years of his life in this country and has played most of his first-class cricket in this country and tell him that he doesn't have the right to play for the land of his birth?
This is what Pattinson said in the local paper in Grimsby the other day:
"It's been an incredible couple of months and to have the chance to play Test cricket for England would be the ultimate honour."
I wonder whether the place of his birth is part of his problem with some people. Would we be having this discussion if this was a player from an apparently 'more traditional cricketing area'?
Besides which, it seems that none of the critics have acquainted themselves with this season's stats. Pattinson has taken more Championship wickets, at a better average, than either Matthew Hoggard, Chris Tremlett or Sajid Mahmood. He has taken the same number of wickets, in a higher division, than Simon Jones, and he has got his wickets cheaper than Steve Harmison has got his? So Pattinson, while obviously a surprise pick, is clearly a form horse. We should be celebrating what is a remarkable story but it has been soured for me by the attitude of certain 'experts' who I think ought to know better.
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GOOCH (el moustachio)
England debut, vs Australia (1975)
1st inns = 0
2nd inns = 0
i.e. A PAIR
Next test
1st inns = 6
2nd inns = 31
Then, dropped!!!!
C'mon Gooch! You were given a chance to prove yourself! Give others a break!!
After all, Tony Greig, your 1st English captain, was a true English gentleman, but, like you, he sold out for money rather than patriotic pride....
Gooch, you are such a hypocrite, in my humble opinion
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oh yeh, just remembered, Greig was South African born - did you tell him??
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Goochie.... i frankly am astounded by your comments. What is it that England exactly want ? Do they want to win test matches or do they want to play "passionate" english players.In your article you say ... bring in some players for the future instead. How long will England delve on this "good player for the future" excuse and start delivering results which would see them as a top 3 team in the world. The problem for England has always been that there were no more 3 established players (inclusive of injury prone) in the team. So now you have Flintoff and Peterson and then that follows the people "who have potential".
My point here that if you pick you established players and then pick the others based on your county cricket form , i think that should see the English team performing consistently. And that is what i think ECB have tried to do here.
I suggest rather than concentrating on the origin of the players , the former players should concentrate on picking faults in their county system so that they can improve the overall breed of incoming players who will be STARS.
I would like to conclude saying that .. Even a guy from Thailand or Mexico can be "Passionate" towards the Brazilian football team... he need not be "MADE IN ENGLAND" for that.
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Absolutely horrified by the Pattinson selection. Mathew Hoggard has been a fantastic servant of England and is still only thirty one. Furthermore, he has taken 248 test wickets, just 4 less than Brian Statham. He had one bad match in New Zealand. I imagine he must now feel physically sick, because I certainly am.
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I think that Goochie is talking double standards when he compairs players like Allan Lamb, Greame Hick and Robin Smith to Pattinson. For a start, Pattinson, whatever people might think, was born in England, he hasn't had to qualify whatso ever. Also, Lamb and Smith where South Affricans, in a time when South Africa where not playing Test Cricket, so moved here to chase the Golden Goose of test cricket and adopted England as their country.
I like many others was thinking "Who's Pattinson?" when he came in the test team. I have now watched him for a day and a session, and I can only thin kthat he bowls a great line and length (better than Harmison), moved the ball, (more than Hoggard) and is consistaent (More than Jones and Tremlett), so what is everyones problem? Give the guys support, he's in teh middle of a Test!! Save all the analysis for after the game, and as for everyone bleating on about Harmi and co - they have had their chance, became complacent, even arrogant (based on Harmisons interview in New Zealand) so they can wait and wait and wait for all I care.
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With regard to pattinson, we Grimbarians are quite chuffed he was picked, even if he only did spend 6 yearsin the town!
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If the man was born in Grimsby he is entitled to hold a British passport. If he holds a British passport he is entitled to play for England. I hold a British passport and live in Canada, but that doesn't make me any less of a patriot. Many people leave the UK to work elsewhere; the globe is alot smaller than it was when Ken Barrington was playing for England. Move with the times, Graham.
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De Villiers knew he hadn't caught Strauss. Vaughan (despite his petulant protests) also knew that he hadn't caught Amla. The commentators shouldn't have questioned the referral and Amla's return to the crease. The spectators booed De Villiers, and then ridiculously and unsportingly booed Amla, who was rightly given not out. Flintoff turned round after the ball passed him, saw clearly that Vaughan hadn't caught it, and pointedly avoided saying otherwise at end of play. Botham said De Villiers was the worst he'd seen, but S.Waugh cheated far more blatantly some years ago, dropping the ball as he fell to the ground, pickig it up as he rolled over, and then holding it aloft triumphantly to claim the catch, which was given! 0sur1c.
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The De Villiers and Vaughan non-catches highlighted yet again the need for more referrals and the right of teams to request them. The arguments against are fatuous. The umpires should welcome referrals when there is doubt. The idea that 'it evens itself out' is ridiculous - it may do so, more or less, for an individual over the course of his career, but it rarely will in terms of whole matches and even series. Even sillier is the oft-repeated claim by commentators that even after a number of replays the situation can still be unclear. Haven't they ever heard of 'giving the batsman the benefit of the doubt'? If it's unclear the batsman is simply not out.
More referrals please. The game requires decisions to be as CORRECT as possible, not regular wrong ones. It's obvious. Counter-arguments are stupid. 0sur1c.
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I cannot fault Grahamīs comments.
The selectors and captain have made a clear choice in the face of the obvious choice, local boy in reasonable form , Matthew Hoggard who knows this wicket better than any other bowler in serious contention for an England place.
They have the right to make the selection and we the supporters now have less respect for their judgement than ever before. Selections like this can only hasten the replacement of the selectors and captain.
If England want a hope of taking on Ricky Pontingīs machine and having a chance of winning then we need selectors and a captain who regardless of personality issues, are capable of selecting Englandīs best players and welding them into a winning team (and not just against Bangladesh!)
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What is the point of having England Under 19s, 21s and england Lions when the selectors pick a guy who has play 11 1st class games and has no real high level cricket expreneice!?!?
if he was 21 with serious gas then yes you can let this one go, but when he is pushing 30 with no expreneice well it makes no sense. He will play one test maybe two if he is lucky!!!! what a waste of a test place. I think hoggard should feel let down and stabbed in the back.
hoggard would run up hill into the wind and not complain once. there is no postive gain from picking him and if the captain has not even heard of him does this say that the captain doens't even get a say in his own side that he is leading???
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Here are the facts.
1. Pattinson took more wickets than Freedy and bowled fewer overs
2. He was the only English bowler to take a wicket on Saturday
3. He was born in England to English parents (unlike certain other members of the "England" team)
4. He has been the best bowler in the English 1st Division so far this season and is a genuine match winner
5. His performance in the first innings of his test debut compares favourably with Tremlett (1) and Hoggard (none) and is the same is Simon Jones (2)
6. He took the key wickets of Amla and Price, South Africa's two best batsmen at Lords
I hope that the England selectors keep faith in him and that he plays at Birmingham.
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Saqlain Musthaq now qualifies to play for England lets put him in as well, you never know we might win a game.
Lets look back at the history of British sports
any one remember Zola Budd. It took less than a week to make her a British national...... to win the GOLD ..
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