Frail batting costs England again
The most frustrating aspect of England's chastening opening day was that, as feared, it was their well-publicised batting problems that cost them. Anyone can get out first ball, but it was the last thing Michael Vaughan needed today.
With questions now seriously being raised about the value of his place in the side as a batsman, he desperately wanted a score here, but was undone by the faintest of edges to the wicketkeeper, and the pressure on him will be ratcheted up another notch.
A team can just about accommodate one batsman struggling for form, but not two, and it was no surprise to see Paul Collingwood struggling so painfully. He has been in dreadful form all summer and this laboured innings of 45 minutes for his four betrayed his lack of confidence.
While we have not seen enough of Vaughan today truly to gauge either his form or state of mind, Collingwood's torment was on show for all to see. He faced 22 balls, and made one scoring stroke - he will have to produce something really special in the second innings to avoid being dropped for the final Test.
Andrew Strauss will feel some responsibility for starting the collapse having needlessly trodden on his wicket after 23 relatively calm overs. Andre Nel was the bowler, lumbering in with his usual enthusiasm and energy, but the ball was innocuously aimed at the leg stump. Strauss clipped it away for a run, only for his left boot to knock his bails off.
Vaughan followed next ball, and Kevin Pietersen's dismissal was also unusual. Apparently trapped lbw by Kallis, Pietersen was actually given out caught at point by Steve Davis after the ball had bounced off his pad. Pietersen had turned his back on the umpire, and it took an age for him finally to leave the crease. The outcome was the correct, albeit the decision itself was wrong.
Tim Ambrose has not done enough to give the selectors the confidence to play five bowlers at The Oval - or anywhere else for that matter - and the farcical run-outs of James Anderson and Monty Panesar at the end merely summed it all up.
The demeanour of the England team as it took the field would not have filled even its most loyal and optimistic supporter with confidence. Why? After one defeat, how have things unravelled so spectacularly? The answer to that can only come from within the dressing room.
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~03~RS~)
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Vaughan and Collingwood must both go before the next test. Their ability has been lost they look tired forlorn and dismal. If either had ny pide they would fall on their sword. I would add Strauss.
Bring in Bopara Key and bring back Broad.
I feel this must know happen. Time over for Vaughan and collingwood for certain.
Why did Vaughan not give Flinoff the new ball. Because Vaughan is just going through the motions with regard a job he has lost all passion for
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Even my cat knows Collingwood shouldn't have been selected for this test match.
We were never going to compete with the saffers with TWO hopelessly out of form batsmen in the top 6.
And dropping Broad, for whatever reason, simply makes the batting more brittle.
What were the selectors hoping for - divine intervention?
Drop Vaughan and Collingwood and bring in Bopara + Key or Shah.
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Well, apart from Flintoff's boundaries and dismissal of Smith at the death, that was truly pathetic. Another 50-plus opening stand between Cook and Strauss leads to yet another 'Calypso Collapso' as Blowers wonderfully puts it! And what is wrong with KP? does he not realise that his first task, surely, was to see us to lunch at just 2 wickets down? Obviously not!
Colly should neevr have played. I know it's crazy but Broad should have played as much as a batsman as a bowler - he is in better form than Colly OBVIOUSLY, and even if he was tired, he will bowl better than Colly - surely we all agree on that. He could have batted at 6 instead - even though that sounds a bit premature, he would not have done any worse than Colly.
The only hope we have now is Freddie magic tomorrow, plus Monty as it possibly starts to turn. Otherwise England = screwed. And we deserve to be quite frankly!
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I thought it was the greatest performance the cricketing world had ever seen. And 'Anyone can get out first ball'... James Anderson can't.
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Of course, the question must now be if Vaughan is now fired, or falls on his sword, will Trescothick want to play for England again?
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There's always the second innings, but - failing two good scores - Vaughan can enjoy Collingwood's camaraderie and positive attitude on their mutual way back to county cricket.
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Trescothick can't play for England again - his condition flares up whenever he goes on tour.
Terrible shame, he's what we need right now.
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politeBoobie - maybe I need to play catch-up, but is it supposed that Vaughan is at the root of Tresco's problems?
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We need a total overhaul of this team once and for all
Collingwood is useless, as is Bell - a couple of good innings seemingly keep a place for life.
Vaughan must go soon - a good captain but awful with the bat
The bowlers Anderson and Sidebottom just aren't threatening enough at all.
The team should become:
Cook
Strauss
Shah
Pieterson
Bopara(can bowl as well to make a six man attack)
Prior
Broad (even though not fantastic with the ball, he's topping the batting averages so justifies his place in the team as he can bat a lot better than vaughan and Collingwood whilst can be used as a useful bowler as well)
Flintoff
Harmison
Jones
Panesar
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I have been at work all day, watching the score on line. So so so disappointed. Is there any chance for a team that hasn't got the talent and/or form and can't graft either? Liked RyanPettman's idea of playing Broad as a batter, but there must be better options out in the county. As a Middx fan - Shah springs to mind.
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neoBee-bop: Yes indeed, that was what I was alluding too.
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I am swaying towards the band on here that demands change.
Collingwood should have been nowhere near the test side.
The skipper got an unlucky one again but I think his time may well be up. Everyman has a breaking point and this England team added to his own form must be driving him mad.
Robert Key, Bopara and Shah must all be wondering what they have to do to be selected.
Personally Speaking I believe England have a ready made skipper in waiting with Rob Key.
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I'm not really sure where England go from here.
It is hard to see South Africa not taking a substantial lead into the next set of innings, given that their batting line up is not nearly as likely to collapse at short notice.
Come Sunday, but probably before then, the series will be gone and England will have to pick up the pieces.
Collingwood is the obvious man to lose out. And it is a real shame, as he is no doubt a nice lad and now faces the prospect of not playing international cricket until his ban expires in the ODIs. In that time, unless he makes some good knocks for Durham, if KP produces the goods then there could be the argument to let him keep the armband, should Colly not be able to force his way back into the team. That, however, is very unlikely.
Shah is the man to come in. He's never really done anything wrong at international level, as much as anything, he just hasn't been able to force his way into what used to be a very congested England upper middle order. Now it's bottlenecked on who can get out of the team first.
Vaughan is a class player. How he has found himself in such a muddle is beyond me. England can't lose him. First problem: a complete lack of continuity in taking your captains in both forms of the game out of the side. Secondly, who captains?
The Sky boys touched on it. There are no obvious candidates. Strauss is just about back in the fold, Flintoff too injury prone, Collingwood dropped and I wouldn't want to weigh down KP it just yet.
Cook is the only man I'd trust with the job, but just not yet. And that, if nothing else, is why Vaughan must stay.
Ade
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mark LCFC
Stick to football mate.
Bell and Sidebottom are doing a good job for England.
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I realise that Rob Key is talented, and doing a good job as captain of Kent, however, he previously averaged 31 in test cricket after 15 tests, thanks largely to a score of 221 against a poor west indies team. His average against aus/sa is below 20! There are better performing batsmen in the county game at the minute, so once again are people saying that he should be included as captain, despite not being best batsman, or in as a batsman with another candidate for captain?
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Will people please get off Michael Vaughan's back?
He is without doubt the only man who can lead England. Anyone with any cricketing knowledge can see he's got either unplayable balls or, like today, a dodgy decision. There is so much doubt even after looking at technology whether he hit the ball. Nothing on hot spot, a thicker sound on snicko that isn't the same as an edge, so what did Aleem Dar hear I ask. Just another excuse to get on his back.
Has it escaped attention that ALL England's batsmen are struggling for runs. Even KP has done his usual trick of getting his one century a series and nothing else besides. Vaughan is just the name in frame for all the "new toy" mentality people who are just springing names up from the county game. Get off the media bandwagon guys and get behind the captain of your country.
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This was a truly spineless and turgid performance from England. We've now been bowled out twice in a row on the opening day of a test. Last time there were excuses about Englands team balance and personal. Now we have a team with six batsmen, get a solid start and still underperform. I've read people praising Collingwoods character, prescence in the dressing room and other attributes. Yet the man is in awful form, his innings today was painful to watch. He needs to go before he damages his reputation permenantly.
The selectors , playersand coaches need to have a look at themselves after todays performance. On this form the Australians will destroy us in 2009.
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England have not unravelled after one defat. The rot was already apparent against a weak New Zealand side, however they weren`t in a position to maintain their advantage. The Springboks are stronger and after they´d acclimatised after the third day of the first test they took over. It reminds me of the indian tour last summer.
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Oh and politeboobie, privvy to what is going on in the England dressing room are we? Stop talking rot!
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Vaughan is beginning to look pitiful. Send him back to Yorkshire and if he starts putting together a run of successful innings, bring him back into the side. His constant failure with the bat undermines the confidence of the batsmen who follow.
Replace Ambrose with the Sussex keeper and bring in Bopara to replace Collingwood.
I think we should persevere with Strauss and make him the skipper. The added responsibility will pay dividends. Pieterson sadly does not have the correct temperament and nouse. Definitely have Broad in the side. We need a number 3 who will make his wicket a real prize like a Kallis or a Chaunderpaul. They have to be limpet like. That spot will be tough to fill.
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I mentioned Key because from what I have seen he is vastly improved as a batsman from the last time we saw him in England colours. his captaincy impresses me more and more as well.
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Michael Vaughan averages 43 in test cricket, has scored over 5000 test runs, 17 tons, and 15 50s. He is not a bad player, he has in his time been one of Englands most stylish and exciting batsmen. Remember Australia? His only achilles heel was getting out in the 190s!!! However, his recent run of poor form requires him to either go back to the drawing board or take time out to get back in proper form. He is a good captain, but again seems to have lost the sparkle that he showed 2-3 years ago! I would like to see him bat at 4, without the burden of captaincy.
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What an absolute diabolical and pathetic display by England today. The wicket was a good batting one, and one that should have produced runs aplenty. We have lacked the chemistry. and the passion, for longer than just the last 2 tests.
We need changes and fast.
Vaughan and Colly have got to go, for starters.
We need to revisit the keeping situation, as Ambrose simply does not cut the mustard.
My XI for the final test.....
Key (Capt)
Cook
Strauss
Pietersen
Bell
Broad
Flintoff
Read
Jones
Sidebottom
Panesar
My 2nd XI would be...
Edrich
Boycott
Fletcher
Gower
Gooch
Botham
Knott
Dilley
Underwood
Snow
Trueman
Either would be better than what we have now....
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I would go for:
Cook
Strauss
Key (cap)
Bell
KP
Flintoff
Broad
Bresnan
Rashid
Reid (Wk)
Jones
Batting sound to 9, 5 batters, 5 bowlers, a spinner every bit as skillful as Monty and a keeper who can keep. Who can better that? They wouldn't do worse. Siders has played his part, but he lacks penetration, and Jones needs to come back urgently.
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19: Vaughan needs to be flushed down a 'privie'! He's been rubbish for years.
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We keep looking for signs that England are making progress under Moores / Vaughan.
The sad fact is that there isn't any progress. A fact which now seems to have been realised by the team, which will be in the middle of an Ashes series this time next year.
The batting is now looking like a load of cobblers. The bowling lacks bite and consistency and the side as a whole is just not right.
I didn't believe England would dump Vaughan, but there is now a chance, if England lose the series here, that the selectors might just do the deed.
The deciding factor, as always seems to be the case with England's hierarchy, is pride. Vaughan criticised the selectors policy and probably used up his get-out-of-jail-free card in the process.
The possibility looms of a radically different side for the winter, especially in batting, probably led by Pieterson, with no place for Vaughan, Collingwood or Strauss.
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I watched the South African innings whilst sweating on an elliptical in the gym. Watching Anderson bowl was disheartening. Trying to dismiss a left-hander by bowling away swingers from wide on the crease... sheesh. Ball after ball absolutely nowhere close to Graeme Smith's bat.
Then up pops Freddie. First ball bang on line. Second ball gets the edge and a good catch. That's the difference between being a decent county bowler and someone who can perform at the highest level. Vaughan may give Anderosn the new ball because he gets it to swing but it's worthless when over half the deliveries are nowhere near the batsman.
I criticised Peter Moores last year for not having a real plan formulated over the composition of his sides for both Test and one-day cricket. Nothing's changed really. We don't have a core bowling line-up who regularly take wickets. We have a misfiring middle-order. We are no further to establishing a first choice wicketkeeper than we were at the start of last summer's internationals. Now we have a captain who looks under severe pressure. I wouldn't drop Vaughan as yet. Most captains go through this. Nasser did, Mark Taylor certainly did. I've felt for a long time that Vaughan wanted to go out after the Ashes next summer. Despite his poor form with the bat, I'd retain him.
So what do we have? We have an opening pair who I think can work well together. Despite his mistake today, Strauss does look pretty solid and Cook is getting back into some form and hopefully will break through to the next level over the winter. Vaughan at 3, KP at 4, Bell wherever... so let's please give Owais Shah a chance. As much as I'm a fan of Paul Collingwood, he looks as happy with a bat in his hand right now as Douglas Bader would on a unicycle.
Ambrose as keeper... nope. England have to go two ways: either go with Prior for his superior run-scoring ability and hope he improves or to throw a youger keeper in and hope he makes it. Tough call. Right now I'd go for Prior simply because of our poor middle-order.
Bowling: Sorry Jimmy, I wish you could bring it all together at international level but you haven't. That spell this evening was dire and Freddie showed you up within two balls. I'd like to see Freddie opening with Sidebottom, Jones and Panesar first change and have Stuart Broad in there too.
All this talk of Freddie being a number 7: piffle. Can you imagine any Aussie saying that he's not good enough to bat at a position where he has scored centuries in previous Tests? Where's the self-confidence Fred?
Strauss
Cook
Vaughan
KP
Shah
Flintoff
Prior
Broad
Sidebottom
Jones
Panesar
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It just seems to me that people are looking in every nook and cranny for scapegoats and people to blame for the demise of this England team. I think this is unfair on the England players and does not give the respect that is due to a South African side who have won every series they have played in the last two years with the exception of India away, which would also have been won apart from a batting collapse in the 3rd Test.
Before the series began I had a chat with a mate about the relative strength of the two teams. He argued England could bat as well as South Africa in the top six. I disagreed simply because we are now in the position where all our top 6 consistently get runs. England's top 6 in contrast have averages that have been massaged by Zimbabwe, Bangladesh and West Indies - and thus the players have been put on a pedestal that is higher than their relative ability. As a South African fan, I fear Pietersen and Bell. All the others I figure it is only a matter of time and good planning before we get them out.
In the bowling department, we have excellent strength in depth. This has been seen today with the inclusion of Nel instead of Steyn. It really does not make any difference to the team. Again in our chat, I pointed out that we had 4 frontline bowlers that could all take wickets and a spinner who would pick up the odd one and keep things tidy. Their quality is the primary reason why England are failing. Vaughan equated them with the West Indies attack of the 80s. This way a ridiculous comparison but in fairness our bowlers are currently doing a similar demolition job - although I would have to accept that England do get themselves out most times.
In contrast, England do not have the same firepower. Flintoff is dangerous but Anderson and Sidebottom are only dangerous on occasion. When it swings, we are in trouble but apart from that, our batsmen can fill their boots.
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The only plus I would take from today - which is a big one - is that Flintoff looks to be firing on all cylinders again with bat and ball, though opportunities with both were only short today. For England to get back into this game Flintoff might have to go on and deliver the type of virtuoso performance we saw at Edgbaston 2005, which is probably asking a bit much in only his second test back.
So long as there are apparently no consequences of failure for the upper order then complacent batting performances like today's will continue. Yes, Collingwood and Strauss were dropped, but apparently with a guarantee they would return before long. Meanwhile Broad - whose test batting average is actually higher than Collingwood's now - is 'rested' to play county cricket, Hoggard's career is apparently over and Harmison is deemed worthy only of carrying the drinks. Oh and let's not forget poor Darren Pattinson, an odd selection no doubt but more a victim of Michael Vaughan's closed shop than any particular failings with the ball.
There needs to be a change in culture at the top, and if that means a change in personnel so be it.
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Overhyped, over rated and over paid. That's the England team. Why should they care ?. Most of them are millionaires already on central contracts despite their lack of ability. Pity the poor fans who pay hard earned money to watch them.
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Are there no Strip joints in Birmingham that someone can take Collingwood to, so that he can relax? Poor guy seems to be in dire need of some cheering up!
Hollywood should be Vaughn's next port of call, as and when he is put out to the pasture. What acting, what bemusement!!! "...How can the umpire give me out!!!"...
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"The demeanour of the England team as it took the field would not have filled even its most loyal and optimistic supporter with confidence. Why? After one defeat, how have things unravelled so spectacularly? The answer to that can only come from within the dressing room."
My advice to you, if you are hoping for a constructive answer, is "Don't hold your breath".
The England dressing room do not have the answer, because they live in a required mindset that acknowledges criticism only in an abstract way - as though it doesn't really apply to them, personally, or as a group. It's a pretty good example of system justification in operation, and I'd suggest that unless it can be seen in these terms then nothing ground-breaking can be done to improve their performance.
If I thought that the team outlook was one that had finally realised that there were no more excuses then I'd be mildly optimistic. But it seemed to me more that they were embarrassed, maybe annoyed, by the lack of excuses available, but knew they wouldn't have to wait too long before the PR guys shipped in the next batch.
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im a sussex fan and i reckon rob key desrves the chance to start a new era as captain, he could be captain in both forms test one day and 20 20. great choice i reckon
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Looking at the England side when they started bowling, it looked like they've already given up! What is SiBO snarling at Monty for? If he bowls on the pads, he will be taken for boundaries and there's nothing poor Monty can do.
No one has answers for this simple question: This is the identical batting which got whitewashed by the Aussies. And yet every batsman has been retained... and Vaughan's inclusion hasn't helped any. How is it the selectors are able to fool everyone all the time?
The only reason I can think of is that the worst batsmen have been made captains, so they can't be dropped... and by extension other batsmen who are slightly better but still not good enough to win Tests cannot be dropped. So the first thing to be done is to sack the skippers and find a single captain again for both forms. Enough of Vaughan and Colly in both forms of hte game.
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the total rubbish that is in this team at the mo has to be rid now including the joke selectors who just have not the faintest clue
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Just a thought on the South African team for the Oval. As Nel outbowled Ntini today who would Steyn replace or would the quota thing come into play?
On performance Harris should drop out, but I expect they would want a spinner at the Oval.
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Drop Vaughan and Collingwood. Vaughan needs to learn that even as Captain he is not untouchable. Owais Shah in for Vaughan is simple. As for Collingwood? Even simpler, bring in Stuart Broad. Should never have been dropped in the first place. Then Ravi Bopara and Simon Jones are on stand by.
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Saltyjim
We will not drop Ntini, it just will not happen. He is not bowling well but though there may be a case for his exclusion, he does add variety and is taking wickets again now. He is no longer our strike bowler, so if he is taking a couple an innings on average he is doing his job.
As for Harris, he has been ridiculed by some over in England but, despite this, he is doing the job he was picked for. He bowled a few overs with the old ball and, though he didn't get wickets, he kept it tight and gave the strike bowlers a breather. He then has an added threat if the pitch wears on days 4 and 5.
The reality may be therefore, that Nel drops out again for Steyn. Whatever - the nice thing is we are in the position where we are having to debate dropping a bowler playing a significant role. This is very different to England, who cannot seem to buy a wicket.
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'Tired' Broad dropped. Oh, great!
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A lot to think about, particularly Collingwood.
He was brought in at Broad's expense, to try and improve the batting, was he?
Collingwood's last six innings, in reverse chronological order: 4, 7, 0, 24, 2, 6. Total 43, average 7.
Broad's last six innings, in reverse chronological order: 67, 17, 76, 64, 30, 25. Total 279, average 47.
So Broad averages 40 runs more per innings. Hmm...
Maybe it was just that Broad's bowling wasn't good enough?
In his last six innings, Broad has taken seven wickets for 375 runs. That's 54 runs per wicket. Not great, but...
In his last six innings, Collingwood has taken no wickets for 62 runs. That's infinite runs per wicket.
If Broad's bowling really wasn't good enough, then the answer would have been to bring in another bowler.
Collingwood hasn't even played any "proper" county cricket for Durham since he was dropped; only 20 and 40 over games.
Where's the logic?
And why is it that talented players are underperforming on an alarmingly regular basis? The only answer I've got is that they're complacent. Reputation seems to be more important than form to the current selection panel.
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Vaughan won't be dropped before the end of the series, that would be a big change. Remembering SA are probably the strongest side in the world at the moment. but if England aren't winning, then he needs runs to keep his place.
But Colly is surely sunk if he doesn't fire in the second innings.
Ambrose needs to hold all his catches and keep getting some half decent runs and maybe he'll get another series, we've chopped and changed so much since Stewart's retirement, we need to give someone a proper run, remembering Chris Read's treatment as a prime example. But Foster and Prior are ready and waiting for the call I'm sure, and clearly at least one will tour.
Sidebottom is Hoggard's successor, a solid, hard-working seamer, Anderson's still has to get important wickets under his belt to convince me.
Sidebtttom's role is not disimilar to one-Test wonder Mr Pattinson whose inclusion ahead of Tremlett in the selected squad (let alone anyone else) was illogical and very much a hunch-based gamble.
Broad will be around for years to come, he's still young and needs to work on his bowling like anyone his age, his winter tour berth must be assured, as is Simon Jones's if he stays fit (fingers crossed), I think it's only right he proves himself for a full season.
I like Bopara, in theory a like-for-like replacement for Colly, but is he really strong enough to bat at 5 at Test level? And isn't Rob Key just another good county-level bully?
We have Cook, Strauss, KP and Bell all seemingly set, maybe it's time to find a younger proper batting prospect at 5 and let the keeper (?), Flintoff and Broad stiffen the early tail as part of a five-man attack?
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Right, a total change of subject here first!!
In regards to the new umpire referral system in place (yes, I know its not being used in this series!), could Pietersen have successfully appealed against his dismissal today?
He clearly was given out caught, though this has been proved this was incorrect, if he had appealed could he have been given out for lbw if he hadn't originally been given out for that?
I know a 'double' dismissal is a rare occurance, but is there a loop hole in this new rule that could have been missed?
Right back to todays miserable performance, the writing has been on the wall since the winter. On countless occasions New Zealand handed England victories, rather than England crushing New Zealand, though the England management claimed they were 'great' victories.
Surely this highlights the ineptitude of the current leadership team, Vaughan included. I am for one a massive Vaughan fan and believe he has massively helped turn England into a force, though surely he has to pass the baton on and let a new wave of talent lead the England side. Currently there are no 'leaders' standing out in the current squad, but before Vaughan got the job very few saw him as captaincy material.
Too many batsmen for too long have stayed in the side on reputation alone, surely the lack of a first innings total for way over a year (Lords aside) should have opened peoples eyes to this. Lets sort things out now before we ruin a potentially brillant team.
Lets give players like Shah, Bopara, Denly, Foster a chance to show their talents on the international stage, in place of the floundering incumbants.
I know i've ranted on but I care too much to see years of progress to be ruined, we DO have the players, lets use them!
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Vaughan got out once again by a good ball. This seems to happen a lot to him these days. One way to avoid being got out by really good balls - stop playing Test cricket.
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Another absolutely baffling piece of selection leads to another wholly inadequete first day.
After the three innings in which england's bowlers find it almost impossible to take wickets the selectors almost incredibly drop a bowler. This terrifyingly bad logic is inpounded by the fact the bowler (Broad) who was dropped was the best batsman at Headingley and has been replaced by a batsman with the worst average of any of the top eight for the entire summer. So the selectors weaken the bowling AND the batting- stunning, stunning brainpower they have shown after the debacle of the Pattinson selection.
Cleary if the selectors really felt that they should leave Broad out (obviously feeling that his scoring such a great number of runs was some sort of freak occurence not backed up by his GENUINE ability) then they surely would pick a batsman who is a sure fire bet to score runs on current form, like Bopara or Shah. However, Broad has clearly shown that the runs he scored were testiment to his quality and not some lucky smash and grab raid due to second rate bowling or whatever. I think that lad Boycott has some idea of what he is talking about when it comes to batting.
The selectors have totally demolished the chances of the England team in this series; not to say that there are excuses for the batting display today, but just that when the difference in quality between two teams is so very close, as between these two, such decisions can be the difference between winning and losing.
The most logical selection choice has been right in front of the selectors eyes since Flintoff came back in the team (with his shaky batting form, although he has been okay so far) and that is this:
Two out and out quicks from Sidebottom, Anderson, Harmison, Hoggard, Jones and Tremlett. Supplemented by two bowling all-rounders in Broad and Flintoff.
The strengthening of the batting comes from replacing the very average Ambrose with Prior, who is a proper batsman. The team now looks like this and is well balanced
Strauss
Cook
Vaughan
Bell
Pietersen
Prior
Flintoff
Broad
Sidebottom
Anderson/Harmison/Hoggard etc
Panesar
The team has 5 proper bowlers and strength in batting up to and including 8 (Oh, apart from Vaughan)
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Prior+Broad+Shah
Ambrose+Vaughan+Collingwood
All of the top 3 I have named above are in much better batting form than the lower 3.
Vaughan and Collingwood are in the team for their batting. If a batsmen isn't scoring runs, why are they in the team?
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Firstly, Simfas, Collingwood could go to the Rocket Club on Broad Street to relax in the manner you suggest.
Secondly, I'm sorry to say it but Vaughany's days have to be numbered. A captain must be able to justify his position as a batsman or bowler and sadly Vaughan just hasn't done this for ages. And, if what I've been told is true, then Trescothick may well come back to the side if Vaughan goes. Excellent. So our batting has improved immeasurably already. Right. Strauss promoted to Captain, no question he has the cricket brain for it and his performance with the bat is already rocketing back to the top form he was enjoying in 2003/2004/2005. Cook, no worries there. As for Bell, stop lambasting him numties like Mark LCFC! He's a class act. Pietersen needs a good talking to from the new captain but of course has the talent. Someone just needs to point out to him that his place is not a foregone conclusion and to stop trying to hit the ball out of the ground when the team has its back to the wall. Shah should come in to the middle order. He too is class and has been unfairly treated by the selectors in my opinion.
As for the keeper I do not claim to know what the solution is. With my suggested batting line up firing on all cylinders his keeping performance should be the important factor. We can't afford to miss catches behind and stumping opportunities at test level.
Then bowl Flintoff, Sidebottom, Panesar and Simon Jones.
What do you reckon?
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Simfas - I know a couple of places Collingwood might like to chill out at :) The guy's out of form, selecting him was a mistake. Simple enough.
The rest? Village.
I get fined and mercilessly mocked if I do something deemed as "village". The fines book would have come out today for the England team.
V For Victory was a slogan during World War 2. Let's bring it up to date with V For Village.
Foster in as wicketkeeper. There's a list on another well known cricket website comparing recent England keepers' performances and what their errors cost against their batting. IIRC Prior comes bottom of that list.
Vaughan the Prawn (that's going to stick now, watch for the seafood jokes) is paying for his poor form and shellfish approach (sorry, couldn't resist it) to team selection. Closed shops don't work. Strauss should get the job.
Much as I don't rate Owais Shah that highly, the guy deserves a chance. He can't do much worse. Same for Bopara to replace Collingwood.
Until we get some hard work in our batting whoever we pick as bowlers won't stand much of a chance.
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In Colly's defence - look at that picture and tell me you wouldn't have got out cheaply too to a team of giant Saffers.
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Can anyone explain to me the point of Monty Panasar?
The guy cant catch, cant field, cant run and is not exactly consistent when it comes to taking wickets. we may as well play ten men.
The Eddie the Eagle culture he creates is embarrassing, the Australians, Sri Lankans and Indians all have spin bowlers who can at least bat and certainly take wickets on a consistent basis.
The problem of not playing the right amount of batsman and bowlers is that we have to carry him every game.
I would much rather have seen Simon Jones recalled.
It was clear at the end of the game tonite that even Ryan Sidebottom had had enough of Panasars amateurish performances.
Please find us a spinner who can actually spin and make a reasonable fist at batting.
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Hussain resigned halfway against the Saffers.
Vaughan should do the shame.
Next FEC? Cook....simple!
(And no, not Pieterson. This is Test cricket not the muppet show...he´s a 2020 captain.)
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Pack it in Vaughan, you are no longer good enough at this level of cricket. I really did not like his comments either when Jonathan Agnew interviewed him (listen to it on the main cricket site). That clearly shows a man not right with himself and he should go at once. Agnew is only doing his job, which is to ask questions and did not need to be spoken to like that.
Fundamentally Peter Moores needs to go at once. I have been calling for this for a while now however the wins against a very average New Zealand side have clouded some people's judgments.
Ambrose and Collingwood are not good enough and must not be picked.
Owais Shah needs to be given a fair run in the team and Cook needs to be made captain now!
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I think Vaughan, Colly and Ambrose are in the last chance saloon.
When we finally bowl SA out, by which time we could be looking down both barrells, these three need to score big second time around, to save their spots in the team and ultimately their test careers.
If we lose this test, which looks likely, and those three fail to deliver in the second innings, the series will have gone and the time for rebuilding towards the Ashes must start. That means for the Oval Test, Shah in for Vaughan, Bopara in for Colly (should be playing in this test anyway for the Durham flop) and Foster in for Ambrose. Strauss as captain.
As for the bowlers, drop Anderson (he's no opening bowler), bring in Jones and then it's between Sidebottom, Hoggard or Harmy. Panesar to stay, he can't run, field or bat, but he's the only decent spinner we've got.
Broad is one for the future and may well usurp Flintoff for the all rounder spot, during the winter tours.
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I love Badabingat's posting above as it's the best definition of "tripe" I've seen.
Quote" Flintoff's ..with his shaky batting " as opposed to Vaughan with his non-existent batting, non existing captaincy, non existent PR skills (blame evrybody else but yourself), complete lack of responsibility and a continuing succession of ducks.
No wonder they call him the Egg Timer..it takes him three minutes exactly to come to the wicket face a ball and retire to the pavillion.
Time to put this joke of a captain who wouldn't get into Derbyshire's 2nd X1 out to grass although the Yorkshire players will tell you they don't want him in their side.
Flintoff 36 not out and the only wicket.
Vaughan 0 and out and frankly he didn't deserve 0.
Baztheace
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If Vaughan gets the boot as he should, I think the selectors should take a big risk and make Cook captain. He's young, driven and level-headed. He's also the only viable candidate in my opinion.
I think what will work for Vaughan is that the selectors won't want to blood two new batsmen in the next test and Colly's a gonner barring a ton next up. I think the selectors will go with Bopara but I really think Owais Shah deserves a proper go.
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backofdanet; At last someone agrees with me in relation to Cook being made captain!
People should realize that to be a captain you don't have to be loud and brash which Cook is not. Smith has these traits but did Steve Waugh, Mike Brearley or Michael Atherton?
Cook reminds me so much of Stephen Fleming and we need to give him a chance and build the team around him, Bell, Broad, Pietersen and Flintoff.
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To my mind the selection of Collingwood this match was a far worse crime than Pattinson last test. Whatever you say about Pattinson, at least he'd been in decent form for his county and played well - if not spectacularly - in the test match.
But what on earth were the selectors thinking with Colly? "Let's see, we urgently need to strengthen our batting... Hmm, tell you what, let's call back that guy who's the most dismal form of his career, who can't get a run for love or money, and who we only just dropped. What's that? He got no runs again? Astonishing!"
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Another shambolic batting performance from England, but to be honest, we all half expected it (except for 'Bumble', who for some reason always has a feeling England might win before evry game, bless!!). I'm not going to Harp on again about the selectors who should all be put out to pasture and maybe shot by the farmers son for practice, just a couple of points that have riled me today:
1) I understand the need to criticise Vaughan as the captain must take the most of the blame when a team fails, but people calling for ROB KEY to take his place as captain are ridiculous at best. He hasn't played test cricket for years, lets not be silly here. He's also extremely overweight for a professional sportsman and his fielding is below par at best. I know we don't have any immediate replacements in the team, barring a nowadays slightly timid Strauss, but lets not drop that far yet!!
2) If anyone else suggests we play STUART BROAD as a number six batsman, you should stop writing on any blogs in future and probably stop watching cricket altogether!! The reason he bats so well is because he's comfortable at 8, it suits his style of play and he is a BOWLER who can bat. Like Freddie, but again that is a different point, he should not be forced into a position above his status where he will only under-perform and come in for more criticism. Not to mention the likes of Shah and Bopara who would probably become Zimbabwean if Broad was picked at number 6 of them. Please, i hate reading the same drivel over and over again.
Thanks, rant over....
Lets hope someone can step up tomorrow from the mire and whittle SA out and we can rejoice in something good again
Come on England!!
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England have clearly had a bad day, but there needs to be some grit shown tomorrow. The first thing to do is stop giving what is frankly at best a mediocre South African side so much respect. Then Flintoff and Monty need to lead the attack tommorrow. Sidebottam is clearly not fit and Anderson has spent his entire career flattering to deceive. At the end of this Match room needs to be made for Simon Jones, Broad and Harmison. We won the Ashes in 2005 due to our formidable bowling attack we need to start rebuilding that attack.
As for our batsmen the time has come for Vaughan to make a century or else his place I feel is under pressure. Equally Collingwood century or gone and the same with Ambrose. Strauss and cook need to start building 100 partnerships like trescothick and Strauss used to. Time to bring back Prior as Ambrose has completely failed but most of all time to increase the scoring rate and build partnerships.
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Another abysmal batting performance from England. 400 should have been a minimum score on that pitch. SA have only to bat sensibly in their first innings and the series will be gone.
The recall of Collingwood was illogical and his failure today was all too predictable. Indeed, as some have suggested, if the selectors wanted to pick a batsman that can chip in with a few overs they would be better off choosing Broad, given his recent form. Collingwood's form is terrible and has been for some while - his last test century was last summer against the Windies. He was correctly dropped for the Headingley test IMO but the spin in the papers from the England camp since then made it clear that he would play this test. Batsmen are often told to play the ball and not the bowler and it would seem to me that in this case the selectors are picking the man and not the batsman, and are shoehorning Collingwood into the team because of his character and familiarity with the squad. Collingwood's fighting qualities are well known but unfortunately his limited technique has been shown up and I believe he should only play in the ODI side and he is still a fine batsman, bowler and fielder in the shorter form of the game.
Vaughan is also under pressure. I have noticed that when his position as captain is being questioned he appears to deliberately create other issues to deflect the attention from him. When his position as ODI captain was question following the 2007 CWC he made the 'Fredalo' comments. After the Headingley test he openly criticised the selection of Pattinson.
I would also like to question Peter Moores' position as coach. If this series is lost, as it looks very likely to be, then I believe that we may need a change at the top. The performance of the test side since his appointment has been poor compared to the standards of Fletcher's reign. The test team seems to suffer from a general ill discipline, particularly on the batting front, and have only beaten a NZ side stripped of its star players and a typically ill disciplined Windies side. Indeed, given their improved showing against Australia in the recent test series the Windies would probably fancy their chances against England at the moment. In Moores' favour there has been a slight improvement in the ODI teams' fortunes but the recent defeats against NZ show how far England still have to come. The performance in the World Twenty20 last year was also disappointing.
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I must admit that I find Vaughan's comments towards Agnew very offensive indeed.
Please listen to it on the main site evryone.
Mr Agnew we are all supporting you on this one as you were rightly going about your job in a professional manner (like you always do) and to be spoken to like that is disgusting.
People will say he is only joking but listen to him carefully and you will see.
He should be removed as captain as once.
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England need Tresco, and badly, since his well know issues about traveling started England have been on a downward spiral (although I don't remember many commentators at the time being as kind as they now are!) We should simply have him play the home series, at least we'd only loose for 6 months of the year! Seriously, who cares if he can't play in the winter tour? Play him at home until someone in the winter tour comes along who is obviously better. Currenty I would happily drop ANY of the England players to have Tresco back in the squad!
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How can the captain be a selector and the new policy to select on form and not history does not quite stand up with Vaughan apart from his knock against N.Z. he has been pretty useless for sometime. Such is his determination he looks completely stressed out and why on earth would you select Colly?. His entire demanour is that of a rabbit in headlights.
I think the selectors have to be much more adventurous and merciless, we are trying to win after all!. Further to this the amount of mistakes they seem to make is unbelievable, what on earth was Strauss doing?, why does somebody not have a serious word with Pieterson, on his day a fantastic player, but one trick pony and certainly does appear to possess any brains in fact that could apply to many of them. They appear to be going backwards especially with loyalty handicap the selectors seem to possess.
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i am not an expert on england cricket, but I feel KP should bat at no.3, ofcourse provided he is willing to. Especially since Vaughan is woefully out of form. The openers are putting in a good partnership but the pressure comes straight back on when one of them gets out and Vaughan gets out quickly too. On the other hand KP can drive home the advantage provided by the openers.
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Rob Key or Cook will be twice the captain Vaughan is now. There is no defence whatsoever as to leaving Collinwood and Vaughan in the side.
I like the Idea of tres back. Cook with some real support in the to 4 great.
Pieterson needs a long holiday or somthing what is he doing. Oh I know thats the way he plays. Team member I think not. Looking to go back to SA is he.
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stepheast
A mediocre South African side? What evidence do you have for stating this? If you have a look back over our track record for the last 2 years, I think you will find that we are deservedly number 2 and considerably ahead of England.
Who knows? Maybe our mediocre side will even give the Aussies some serious problems this summer (that is winter to you)!
Also, if this South African side is as mediocre as you make out, it is only a matter of time before England drop to the level of the West Indies. Personally I think both sides are better than you are giving credit for.
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Things have come to a sorry state when blog-respondents start having a go at each other!
As the England innings wended on its weary and depressing way, I started to try and think of a new strategy which might, at least, avoid humiliating defeat in future. I called it the "eleven batsmen" strategy. One of its beauties is that it doesn't need a batsman/wicketkeeper, or vice versa, in fact it doesn't need a wicketkeeper at all, since there is no intention of taking to the field, except to bat.
The England innings came to an end sooner than even I had expected, so I didn't have time to think through the finer points, such as how to ensure we always won the toss, without resorting to cheating or bribery. I'll have to sleep on that.
The biggest advantage of the eleven batsmen theory is that it will give new opportunities at Test level to batsmen who have either not had them or were discarded too soon. Thus, people like Key, Shah, Bopara and a few others will be able to be compared directly with the current incumbents, on the same pitch, against the same bowlers, in the same match.
On a more serious note, I think that everyone finally accepts that the problem is the batsmen. They are failing us time and time again. Yet they continue to be given new opportunities -- Collingwood and Vaughan are the latest and most blatant cases -- even when they are not performing. This has not happened to the bowlers. There has been much more rotation among the bowlers over the last few years and many more bowlers than batsmen have had the opportunity to show what they can do. That may be why, on the whole, most people are happy with the bowling line-up, satisfied that it is probably, give or take, the best available.
Noone thinks that about the batsmen, however many of them there are.
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Ashes chat:
Questions:
How can the Aussies lose three legends to retirement and we still can't seize the moment?
Answer:
Unfortunately we're rubbish.
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Is anybody surprised? Truly? As some have already noted, the writing was on the wall when England toured NZ earlier in the year.
I wait in eager anticipation to see what Mystic Meg Inc dream up for England's next match, after peering into their teacups or gathering around the ouija board. In all honesty, I fully expect to see Eddie the Eagle opening sometime this season.
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On the bowling front I think Monty should bowl in tandem with an aggressive bowler at the other end (right now Flintoff). Thats when he is most effective.
In fact I think it applies to most spinners unless he is a Warne or Murali.
It doesn't help when Anderson or Broad is bowling at the other end, giving away cheap runs. No pressure on batsmen.
I remember Monty destroying Pak/Windies in partnership with Harmison some time ago.
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lowqualitybatsman - I don't follow the Vaughan/Tresco thing. Tresco also dropped out of the Somerset tour; it's not just England, the guy's just ill.
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England have been mediocre for a long time and even the good period around the time of the Ashes 05 shouldn't disguise the fact that few of players are world class - for a start, just take a look at how our batters dont average in the high 40s and 50s like those from most other test playing nations including Sri Lanka. Selections are poor.
Here is the way forward:
Cook (good enough to keep his place just)
Strauss (worth perservering with too in spite of his patchy return to the side)
KP (true class but may always have a temperament that prevents him from the being even better)
Bell (keep him in)
Shah (deserves to be next in line)
Bopara (all round potential whilst Colly goes back to basics)
Flintoff
Foster
Rashid (Panesar is too suspect in the field and with the ball - and he is not taking enough wickets)
Sidebottom
Jones or Harmison
Its risky playing four main bowlers but we need to nurture those batters who can bowl more....Bopara definitely, KP can, Bell used to, even Shah...but let the other four tak the load.
Vaughan has to go...3 centuries since the Ashes 05 and only one of them was a really good innings..the NZ, West Indies and India..all at home and 3 of the weaker test nations.
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My previous comment didn't appear and I abided by house rules so I guess my opinion is not important:
Strauss
Bell
Cook
Vaughan (last chance)
Collingwood (last chance)
Broad
Flintoff
G. Jones
S. Jones
Sidebottom
Panesar
Whether this gets through or not, I'm off to bed.
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I'm intrigued as to all the bloggers calling for Cook to be captain over Strauss. This is a genuine question which I don't know the answer to - what credentials does he have as a captain?
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All out before lunch:
ha ha ha G.Jones..ha ha ha are you mad? thats why your comment was not posted!!
and for the last time broad is a bowler not a frontline batsman so there is no chance of him batting at 6.
he will only play in a 5 man attack batting at 7 or 8.
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AfricanProtea
"A mediocre South African side? What evidence do you have for stating this? If you have a look back over our track record for the last 2 years, I think you will find that we are deservedly number 2 and considerably ahead of England."
from what I can see South Africa managed to just about win in Pakistan, Just about beat India at home and that is about it. South Africa should beat the Windies, Bangladesh and New Zealand regularily. This is hardly a world beating side and there is not a single bowler in South Afica's lineup that looks world class, from what I have seen in this series alone. This is a mediocre SA side that we should be beating.
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Vaughn was offered the services of Hoggard for the last test (as he wanted a swing bowler), he declined and got Pattinson instead and made him play. In one super cool stroke, he made Hoggard feel unwanted, Pattinson feel unEnglish, and worst of all, made Tremlet feel useless.
This test, he got Harmision in the squad before sending him back to the county circuit. A soft soul that Harmision is, he is probably feeling useless right now, and the bang-it-in bowler Tremlet that Harmision replaced in the squad is probably close to quitting.
He got his good friend Collingwood in the team, who is "... a great man to have around". I recon he needed a decoy to take the heat off of him as and when his inevitable batting failure arrived. He got his wish. Collingwood would be taking the flak and Vaughn would no doubt blame the umpire for his downfall and the unsporting SAfricans who had the temerity to appeal for his snick.
This blame game never stops with this guy.
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I find it amusing that people are calling for the only England batsman averaging 50 in tests to be dropped two matches after he made a superb century. KP has a certain way of playing and it comes off more often than not. He may have just had a couple of low scores in a row but with KP you feel that there is always a century just around the corner, no matter what form he's in. You just can't say the same about the rest of the English batsmen.
People should remember that Ravi Bopara is batting in Division 2 of the county championship. There are a few too many weak bowling attacks, including that of my own county Glamorgan, in Division 2 to assume that his good form will transfer to the test arena. Indeed he has struggled for form when playing in the ODI team despite scoring huge runs for Essex.
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It seems to me that despite the doom and gloom, England have some reasons to be cheery. It's not that there aren't any good English players around - it's just that the selectors aren't picking them!
I can understand the justification for keeping Vaughan - you don't drop your captain mid-series, but I cannot fathom the decision to bring back Collingwood. His form with both bat and ball is disastrous.
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Well-typed Ade. I like the bottleneck metaphor.
I have to say that I felt I saw in Vaughan's appearance these last few interviews between Headingley and now, he showed signs of being distrait, tired, disappointed, not much of a sparkle in his eye. In short, defeated.
This is a signal, to my way of thinking, that it's time for change. Both for his own good and for the good of the team.
This is the Everest of sport, the top of the world as it were, and without that gleam, that fire, that sparkle, that extra magic inside, you haven't a chance.
Your opponents will have that spark, and all the "chances" will go their way, all the "mistakes" will be soon overwhelmed by contested calls or stellar performances or dogged immovable perseverance and then forgotten, and they'll win. Which they have.
It looked to me, watching Michael, that he'd given up before it started. So as much as I like him as a player and admire his record so far and obvious skill and even grace at times as captain, I think he needs a rest.
If he comes back with fire in his eyes tomorrow and rips up Edgbaston and tears into it with his teeth, I'll reconsider. But lacking that, why not give the captaincy to KP?
I thought he looked perfect in the role in his recent debut. The argument seems to be that it will take his batting performance down a few notches. Perhaps this is a given, but I'd contest that, at least in the long term.
I have no doubt that what MV has gone through as Captain recently has affected his batting. And he's been at it for a while, now, and should we not recognize legitimate burn-out as a temporal effect?
I feel that KP would take the job in hand very quickly and with determination. I think he'd take it very deeply seriously, being a devoted Cricketer in his heart of hearts, and quite a skillful one.
I say, give him the chance now, and let time and the selector's choices nibble away at him as they will. We should get a few great things out of him in the meantime. I actually think being Captain might improve his overall batting performance.
Yeah, chancy, I know. But I'd do it, if it were up to me.
Also, Ian Bell and Stuart Broad are part of the heart of the future of this side, I swear it. Play them. Play them a lot, and make sure their best regimes, (Whoa, sorry! I spoke French!), regimens I meant, of course, their best schedules are monitored and cared for.
I can't see letting Sidebottom go, he's intimidating as can I say hell? and I can't imagine why Jones hasn't been called up. Well, I can imagine...but still, he should be.
I love Harmison, would have liked to see if he could hold it together here. But he wasn't chosen. Is there fire in HIS eyes, I wonder?
I know that selection is a tough game in the real world, and it's all well and good that we sit here in front of our screens, sipping our favourite beverages and picking at pimples until someone's eye gets put out. But in need of a team, all is fair in love and criticism.
Give the Captaincy to Kevin Pietersen, he's ready, I say. He has the fire, and the added responsibility might even make him a better scorer in the right batting position. He's outstanding, he may be able to withstand the ruinous duties in a surprising way.
1. Cook
2. Mustard
3. Bell
4. Pietersen
5. Flintoff
6. Shah
7. Broad
8. Bopara
9. Sidebottom
I know, illegal. No way this will happen.
But what would you do, faced with this side? With Hoggard and Harmison and especially Simon Jones lurking?
Personally, I'd, if I can say shit here, shit.
Best from my heart for tomorrow for the current team,
Bill T
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Will everyone stop talking tosh about the captain. All I hear is "Key should be in" or "Cook should be the captain", can't you just give it a rest!!!!
We should be supporting the man in charge, then at the end of the series, then, and only then, should we be having a mass debate about if Vaughan should continue or if it is time for him to step aside.
We need to think about what the best side in the world would do: Australia. What would they do?? What have they done in the past in these situations?? Remember Mark Taylor?? Was he supported?? or was he castigated mid series?? Was he dropped mid seies?? or was he stuck by and then he came good??
We need to wait until the right time, not now, and until then lift the pressure, support the WHOLE SIDE, and stop this mass dibating that everone is doing and get behind the guys in the middle
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Just listened to Vaughan's 34 second interview with Agnew. Vaughan instead of discussing his batting, resorted to attacking Agnew's ability and saying he can't of been good because he only played 3 tests.
Well Michael Vaughan, if the selectors have any common sense at all, you won't play another 3 more tests!
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dicey (#50) - England do actually have a spinner available to pick who has over 200 test wickets and is no mug with the bat, having a test century and two fifties to his name. He's even got a doosra.
Saqlain Mushtaq for England, anyone?
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Even I, as a staunch supporter of Vaughan, am finding it increasingly difficult to justify his place in the team. His captiancy in the last two tests seems a little flat and his lack of runs must be affecting him.
But I cannot agree with everyone clamouring for Rob Key to come straight into the side as captain. Strauss did everything that was asked of him when he filled in for Vaughan and seems like he is in control of a good cricket brain. He should be given he captaincy in place of Vaughan and Key given a go at 3, perhaps as his deputy. But making Key the outright captain from the outset could destabilise an already fragile team. And who knows... giving Strauss the captaincy could be the making of him.
As for Bopara... I still do not rate him or his technique. He may be good enough for ODI cricket, but he still needs to do a lot to convince me of his ability (and to say he could bowl a few overs is ridiculous). Shah could be given a go, but I don't rate his temprament. I hope I'm wrong, but I do not see these guys as saviours of the team.
As for Ed Joyce, so far this season from 19 first class innings, he has a high score of 89. Ed Smith - another tried and dumped batsmen - has an even worse record. Butcher, however, has been stacking up the runs for Surrey. Being nearly 36 though, it is fair to say he won't get a look in.
So, what would I do? Firstly, we need a strike bowler. I'm not a fan of Harmison, but I cannot deny the case he has made so far this season. Observers have said he's been bowling better lines and has been, on the whole, less erratic. So, team would be the following:
Cook
Strauss (Capt.)
Key
Pietersen
Bell
Prior
Flintoff
Sidebottom
Anderson
Harmison/Jones (Jones still needs to prove 100% fitness, but he is by far a better strike bowler than Harmison - his stats so far this season bear that out - and swings it at pace)
Panesar
Bell really needs to learn to stop giving his wicket away. I do not agree with the TMS crew - Bell didn't get an unplayable one. It was a decent ball, but England have been bowling decent balls all summer. If every decent ball resulted in a wicket, SA would have been bowled out for 200 in each innings. So, I'll say again what I said previously - we could learn a lot from their methodology. McKenzie, Amla, Prince... they rarely play anything that isn't going on to hit the stumps, unless the ball begs to be thwacked. "Patience" has been their watchword and look at what rewards that brings. For me, it doesn't seem like the England line-up knows where the off peg is and have this ingrained desire to get bat on ball on everything. And look at the consequences that brings.
Finally, Panesar is starting to irritate me a bit now as well. His lack of variation is a concern - unless it is a raging turner he seems fairly innocuous. OK, he got some wickets at Lords, but there's still something about him I'm still not sure about. For me, you need your best bowlers in the squad, almost irrespective of who those players are. If Panesar isn't picking up wickets, then we should consider bringing in Jones and going for an all pace attack. Afterall, you must take 20 wickets to win a test match - if your spinner doesn't look like he's going to take that many, has dodgy fielding and can't bat, then exactly what is he doing in the side?
There... that feels better!
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Check my previous comments.
Vaughan should not be in the side as his batting is simply not good enough.
Colly is so out of form, asking him to find it at the highest level is bizarre.
Our gloveman can't hack it, if we want a Gilchrist kind of solution we don't have it. Bring back Prior.
Or retry Mustard.
Monty, although has talent, he needs some TLC but should be asked to ply his trade at county level.
Why drop Broad (5 for 47 today I think) plus he adds respectability to our score.
The madness which was not including Harmy.
THis was insanity at its most profound.
We got what we deserve and well done SA.
However why give them easy pickings with inept or gutless selection.
England can prove me, and many others wrong in this test, but it will only paper over the cracks.
Moore's please fall on your sword.
You sound good in front of the camera but I'd rather you grasp the nettle with sweeping changes.
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Not enough children are encouraged to play sport in the UK, hence todays cricket "performance" and many, many other British sporting debacles. Oh well say the sporting authorities/administrators, let's pay the sportsmen more next year and the problems will be solved.
Again though, thoroughly well played South Africa.
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Quite what Collingwood has done to earn his recall at the expense of Broad is beyond me. He certainly didn't play his way back into form with his county. Broad currently offers more with the bat, and certainly more with the ball (even though he's not the deadliest of bowlers). This smacks of jobs for the boys to me, and whilst I don't back a return to revolving door selection policies of the late 80s/early 90s, there does need to be some sense that the players are earning their selection.
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XI for the last Test:
1. COOK
2. STRAUSS
3. BELL
4. KP
5. VAUGHAN
6. BOPARA
7. PRIOR
8. FLINTOFF
9. BROAD
10. HARMISON
11. ANDERSON
12. SIDEBOTTOM
Only two spinners influence a game with any sort of regularity.
One's called Warne and the other's Sri Lankan.
Neither are available to England unless we can pull a Pattinson with them.
KP tweaks the ball as much as Panesar and always looks just as likely to take a wicket.
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the1jukebox
I love those comments, what a blog it would be if everyone was happy to support Vaughan.
Unfortunately the hardened cricket fans amongst us would be more than happy to see Vaughan do well, we would cheer and support and enjoy the good times - and the good times will even get you so far into the bad times.
The Ashes 2005 meant that the team avoided massive castigation following the abismal 06/07 Ashes series.
Unfortunately though, we can know longer remember the good times, and we are sick of the failure. Thats why we cannot get behind the skipper.
Hes not up to the task as a batsmen, and over the last year his captaincy has been bought into question too many times.
Moores has struggled to get the team going, and in all honesty, its hard to see where we are going. The selection looks tired, the good county players can't get into the team because the England team is being used to help out of form players rediscover times long ago and its all quite disturbing.
We have 150 or so first class cricketers to pick from. So why do we insist with only using the 14 or 15?
Its tired, its myopic and its damaging our national game.
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1-0 to Aggers I think. That uncalled for and petulant remark by Vaughan is going to haunt him after another failure.
Do us and yourself a favour, Mike. Take a break. You deserve it and need it. Take the rest of the Summer off and come back for Winter refreshed and ready to show why you are STILL world class.
As for Ambrose, it's time we stopped beating ourselves up about finding a player brilliant both with the bat and behind the sticks. We don't have one and haven't since Alex Stewart. Batsmen should be picked because they can bat, bowlers because they take wickets and glovemen because they can keep. If they prove no mugs in other areas, then great. If not, glory in what they can do and let them get on with it.
Frankly, if our top 6 or 7 did what they're hyped up to be able to do, then a runmaking wicketkeeper wouldn't be a priority.
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My worry is that as Vaughan desperately hangs on to his place with yet more excuses, as leader he is creating a more general culture of self-pity and blamelessness in the dressing room.
I think the general attitude within the team at the moment seems poor- far too cosy and self-congratulatory. Without wishing to sound reactionary, I would be keen to see half the team swapped about for a few games, to bring in some youth and enthusiasm and a renewed taste for competition. (The Lions team seems to be fairly pointless as it doesn't seem like any of them will ever be rewarded anyway). The selectors are making daft decisions and muddled swaps at the moment so I think we would be much better to do something wholesale and actually learn something from it. Even if we took a beating we might learn a bit about/from the character of our younger cricketers (ie.Broad) and also break up the creeping sense of cronyism.
Today England's batsmen came out as though they were there to mow the lawn, in stark contrast to Nel who looked as though he was there to find snakes to strangle.
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So predictable these days that I can only laugh and watch in morbid fascination to see how bad it gets.
The problem with England was demonstrated by the reaction to winning the Ashes: euphoria and hyperbole, and gongs all round.
The Aussies win the Ashes more or less every 18 months and they never get gongs - yet QE2 is their queen too.
It's an attitude thing: Vaughan and his men felt they'd reached the summit, and the only way forward was down. By way of contrast, when the Aussies reached the summit they built a fortress and defended it like lions.
So we traipes unhappily from one "new Ian Botham" to the next (Broad recently had this millstone draped around his neck) hoping for him to rescue us in a Boys' Own fantasy sort of way.
We need players who want to win, not players who sort of hope to improve when everything sort of comes together in a couple of games, and who can always take positives from any crushing humiliation.
KP: if he gets the captaincy when Vaughan is finally pushed, I will stop following the national game. He's a disgrace. Look at the criticism heaped on Graeme Hick many years ago because with all his undoubted talent he consistently underperformed in the international game. Yet somehow Kevin, alleged genius batsman even though he only scores 4 runs half the time is untouchable.
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Vaughan's response to Agnew's question was an utter disgrace for an England captain. Aggers had every right to ask that question, as would any journalist. It was pathetic and exposed him for the egocentric, vain man he is. Aggers shouldn't even have dignified Vaughan's comments by saying that he had played test cricket.
A first ball duck was hubris indeed.
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I am afriad we are heading towards the end of the Vaughan reign. He cannot justify his place any longer. That whole top 5 are just firing as a unit and haven't for well over a year. It's just become too much of a closed club. I don't know what more Shah has needed to do to earn a run. They need to shake that top 5 up completely.
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Wow, just listened to the Vaughan/Aggers exchange... not classy, not classy at all from Mr. Vaughan.
Being generous, you'd say it was mometary fit of pique, and then he certainly owes Johnathan an apology. Being critical, you'd say... well, stuff that would break the House Rules!
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I can't believe so many people are of the opinion Rob Key should be England captain! I would love to of seen him established by now as his talent deserved but i would also of loved Ramps, Crawley to have become 'world class' test players. The fact is they all fell just short for whatever reason so please, no more Key for captain rubbish.
There is no one i can see to replace Vaughan which leaves me praying he will hit form again!
I also can't help thinking that Strauss and Cook look technically flawed and are the worst front foot players i have seen batting! the way the bat always turns in their hands going half forward. Pitch it up, job done it always feels despite their overall averages. They will both go through a Colly patch soon and what then?
who's out there to break into this closed shop? can Denly be good enough? Rashid sooner rather then later? Shah should have had a chance to fail by now, especially in Sri Lanka.
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It's clear to everyone that Vaughan's batting form is poor at the moment, but he remains in the team as there is a belief that his captaincy makes up for this.
But is his captaincy still up to scratch?
1. He frequently continues to attack opposition batsmen when a defensive field would pose more problems
2. He under-uses Monty
3. Through his determination to pick a consistent team he has created an atmosphere of complacency
4. When Flintoff is fit he stops thinking imaginatively and just throws Freddy the ball
5. Fielding/catching is deteriorating (Vaughan's expecially).
Can his captaincy really continue to offset his poor batting? I don't believe so.
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Regards Nel, if there is one thing that should fire up England it is the sight of his taunting Cook after he was out. I certainly hope that little performance is remembered when England take the field tomorrow and is paid back in the best way possible i.e by calmly whipping South Africa session after session after session. Nel clearly has a chip on his shoulder and is temperamental, push that temperament and he I feel he will lose the plot.
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Team for oval test:
Strauss
Cook
Butcher (c)
KP
Shah
Bell
Flintoff
Foster
Broad
Jones
Sidebottom
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Possible starting test for 1st test in next summers ashes:
1. Cook
2. Strauss
3. Pietersen
4. Bell
5. Shah
6. Flintoff
7. Foster
8. Broad (providing he's taking stacks of wickets)
9. Sidebottom
10. Jones
11. Monty
Never going to happen i realise!! Think the balance is good though (if only Flintoff can begin to find some sustainable form again with the bat)
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or:
Carberry
Cook
Butcher (c)
KP
Shah
Flintoff
Prior
Broad
Jones
Rashid
Harmison
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or:
i could go on but i think its pointless! we will be given the same 11 for the sake of continuity??? team togetherness???? etc etc
oh well, its only the w.indies next!!!!
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Why is everyybody so insistent on picking Prior over Ambrose? How on earth can we expect to win a test match with this guy behind the stumps? Yes his batting is fabulous but the guy couldn't catch a cold! We can't take 20 wickets in a match now let alone with this joker dropping every other chance that comes his way!
Rant aside, Vaughan, Collingwood and Ambrose have to go. Get in Shah, Bopara or Broad and Foster and then you will have a team to compete with the best.
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I have to agree with making Cook captain.
He is an intelligent man and cricketer and is one of our best batsman.
Vaughan has really disgraced himself with that comment to Agnew.
Does that mean us fans can't ask reasonable questions of your batting ability Michael Vaughan just because we haven't played test cricket as well?
That is no way for an England captain to act. Vaughan needs to set an example both on the pitch and off it and ask yourself everyone on here; is he doing it?
Captain COOK!
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This SA series will sort out a few Jaffas in the side. Currently the weak links are Vaughan, Collingwood and Ambrose.
Shah, Bopara and Prior in; Strauss Skipper.
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Vaughan is right about Aggers test match career. Just read it for yourself:
Career statistics
Tests ODIs
Matches 3
Runs scored 10
Batting average 10
100s/50s 0/0
Top score 5
Overs 92
Wickets 4
Bowling average 93.25
5 wickets in innings 0
10 wickets in match 0
Best bowling 2/51 3
Catches/stumpings 0
Hardly Test match mainstay in his day was he?????
Vaughan almost has a better bowling average for goodness sake!!! at 93.5 - does that make him as good a bowler as Aggers then I wonder???
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Leave Cook to get on with batting!!!! Bring in an experienced head (i.e Butcher) to guide the 'youngsters' that will also be brought in???? and lets see where that gets us! let Cook be vice skipper for 2 series to see his potential, yes he has a good cricketing brain, but still has to cement himself as one of the worlds best opening bats!
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Aggers your critical comments on Vaughan and Colly are catching up with many of us on 606 who were skeptical before today. Its time for a new broom but will the selectors have the guts?
Ambrose has to go also. Teams have sussed out that they only have to avoid pitching it short to contain and trouble him. As the sky commentary team noted you can practically bowl half volleys at him. Give Foster a go at at with Broad and Freddie at 6 and 7 and Key or Shah at 3 for Vaughan.
The bowling is a bit anodyne at times but not that bad. Calls to drop Anderson on the basis of a poor short spell today are premature - he has improved at takes a good amount of wickets. Just bring S Jones into the squad along with Harmy as competition.
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People who think Rob Key is the answer are more clueless than the selectors they deride. He's never cut it at the higher level of Test Cricket, or even looked anything like it. And as captain? Vaughan has had these bad trots before and always comes out the other side. He is one of only two batsmen Australia will genuinely fear next year.
Collingwood may need some time out and Shah or Bopara looks a good replacement there.
I also never understood why Hoggard was dropped - I feel he should be back in, the sort of bowler who gets wickets in any conditions even if only a couple.
The annual keeper change should happen, either Foster or Prior in.
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Is Vaughan just a reasonable player who had one great year (2002 when he seemed to score 190s for fun)? Apart from that, he has had only one year in his whole career when he averaged over 45 (last year). Since he became captain five years ago, he has averaged 36. Anyone else with that kind of average over that long a period would have been dropped by now.
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I feel sorry for Michael Vaughan and the team. Surely anyone but the most blinkered Saffer can see that half the top order got ropey decisions from the umpires - as was the case in the last two tests as well.
I will be the first to admit that the England top order aren't firing and I do believe they should have given Shah or Bopara a run instead of Collingwood. I've also been far from impressed by Moores - since he took over England seem to have gone backwards, but talk about kicking a team when they're down! The Saffers haven't just had a few 50-50s, they've had a few 20-80s.
The umpires need to put their fingers down and pull them out!
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Must admit I'm at a loss to explain the sudden Rob Key fan club on this board. I worry for people who think he is the answer. He looked everything but Test quality when he played a few years back and his exploits with Kent have hardly been explosive in the 4 day game this year, suggesting him for the next Captain is borderline insanity!
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More than time for Vaughan to tell the mediocrity who was Agnew at test cricket where to get off, and needless to say, it was said courteously but factually. Agnew has an absolute nerve constantly banging on at a player who is in the stratosphere compared with Agnew's record. And Agnew was playing way back when English cricket was at its lowest ebb.
I think it says it all about British sport that the comments of media pundits and has-been players are valued over those of players who are at the sharp end.
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...the concensus seems to be to get rid of vaughan, collingwood and strauss and replace them with...who? shah...bopara...key? the first two are strictly limited over players (check their test stats) and as for robert key, the saffers must be quaking at the prospect. let's face it, we're a second rate cricketing nation at the moment with very few classy young players on the fringes of the test team. i predict another whitewash in the ashes next year...
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I said it earlier and il say it again! Key averaged 31 in 15 tests, under 20 against aus/sa, and averages only 37 in county cricket this season! so again it would appear he is being touted as a captain for the sake of being a captain, rather than as a batsman in the form of his life who happens to have turned out as a good leader as well.
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someone once told me that if you wake up in the morning, and you are still breathing, you should be happy, because there is hope that the day could be full of enjoyment......
Not if you tuned in today and work in an office full of Saffers.
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First of all i would like to say its nice to have freddie back in the team. A player of the highest standard.
I feel Englands problems start with the fact we can't get wicketkeeper who can score runs. Tim Ambrose has been the poorest i have seen in some time, and to me has n future in test cricket. If the selectors were to put a attacking run scoring keeper in such as Phil Mustard from Durham then i feel we may see a 5 man bowling attack. But the facts are simple, ambrose cant buy a run and that doesnt look like its going to change. Collingwood is an outstanding ODI playter but that is his arena. There are much more in-form batsmen at present than collingwood.
Vaughan has been an outstanding leader of this team and it has always been noticed vaughan socres one big socre every series and will back himto do it again.
I would be tempted to turn stuart broad into abatting alrounder, he clearly has the potential. My England team for the last test would be Strauss, Cook,Mustard,Pietersen, Vaughan, Bell, Flintoff,Broad,Anderson,Sidebottom, Panesar. Its a risky batting line up but i feel the team needs some improvents if this team is to progress.
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totally agree, about the Key comments, he would be a joke, the others are only 20 20 players never proven at that level internationally even!!!
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the1jukebox
Please tell me the relevence of your statistics on Jonathan Agnew.
He's a Cricket Correspondant who's job is to ask perceptive and probing questions of our top cricket players and managment.
Michael Vaughan, however, is the England cricket captain. I think his stats and current performance are possibly more germane to this debate.
And they're not looking too good, are they?
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Owais Shah has played 2 tests so I think to draw any conclusions from his test statistics is grotesquely unfair.
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Collingwood and Vaughan have to go, its as simple as that. Collingwood is not getting runs this season and as for Vaughan, its not enough just being captain, you have to play well as well.
And another thing-if England are to carry on with this ridiculous idea of having only three specialist bowlers then we need another all-rounder. Why do England overlook Tim Bresnan? He has been scoring runs at a good average and getting a fair few wickets at an excellent average for Yorkshire this season and deserves a chance. So, barring any miraculous batting in the 2nd innings from either of the two, my changes for the final test would be:-
Out-Vaughan, Collingwood
In-Bresnan, Shah
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Once again an England player is shootings craps at the end of play. 'Vaughan is a class player and will come through.' Well, yes, give him another 20 innings and the odd score will surely come and then everybody in the England camp will hail great strenght of character instead of just a statistical occurence. This current England set up is a complete joke. Vaughan's comments on Agger's test record the other day sum it all up. Remember Mark Taylor struggeling? He would never have made such stupid remarks, but then again he was head and shoulders above Vaughan, both as a player and as a leader.
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LowQualityBatsman
How little you know. Aggers was a mediocre cricketer who's only way of staying in the game is to talk about it. He has never been good enough to be a coach (because no one listens to him), he was not good enough to make it for Englan (as the stats suggest) and he doesn't even have the looks for TV!!
Lets face it, he is hardly in the Boycott, Botham, Hussain, Atherton, Fraser etc etc etc field of credibility when he tries to talk about what it takes and what it is like to play test cricket is he??
Prove me wrong and i will hold up my hands
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for me colly, vaughan and ambrose must go
Cook
Straus (C)
KP
Bell
Shah/Bopara/Wright
Prior
Flintoff
Broad ( Definately, even for colly, at 6)
Anderson/Jones
Siddebottom/Harmy
Panaesar
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Good to see my mate jukejokebox is back trying desperately to deflect anything away from the Uk's perceptive, continual and correct assumption that the ludicrously poor Vaughan is a complete disaster, a walking wicket, the worse captain in living memory and a nailed on cheap wicket for any bowler worth his salt.
Even his image, the suave brylcreem boy who can't play cricket but looks good on a poster, is looking tarnished now as the riled up bad tempered Vaughan seeks to rubbish Agnew without doing his homework.
Flintoff is worth 350 Vaughan's and that's a bit hard on Flintoff considering Vaughan's value in world cricket wouldn't buy you a loaf of bread.
Vaugan the Prawn is the Stan Laurel of the England side, minus the humour of course.
Baztheace
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May I call you stepheast
You seem to be frustrated! Don't let it blind you, or make you guilty of what the England selectors and management currently suffer from: DENIAL.
The problem is you don't respect the South African side and you think they are mediocre. That is pure escapism and denial of England's problems which have been evident in previous series already.
By degrading your view of the South African side ( a rare view ), do you hope to elevate your view of the England side?
Perhaps a positive and constructive approach may see England fight back and build some much needed character in this test. We would all like to see this .
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The inclusion of Darren Pattinson for the last Test against South Africa must surely rank as one the most crass decisions in recent history.The selectors then compound this puzzling decision by bringing back Collingwood,(not scoring runs or taking wickets)and dropping Broad,who seems to be making a fair fist of the all-rounders position, and is good form with bat and ball.
Vaughan is increasingly looking like a rabbit.His captaincy doesn't deserve the same kind of respect that Mike Brearley enjoyed(his batting was mediocre at best) and should be dropped.
All in all,the Aussies must be licking their lips at the prospect of slaughtering the sacrificial lambs England will be proffering next year.
South Africa will just be giving us a light pummelling, like a steak ,before the main protaganist arrives to finish us off.
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As we know vaughan has to go now his reputation is being tarnished-thanks for a brilliant stint as england captain and letting me witness an ashes victory after years of being destroyed by the aussies but stop prolonging the obvious! Sidebottom is starting to annoy me with his petulance sniping at the fielders the captain should never let that happen! I dont think england need the spin option this series and i think england should have bowled first after a big rest between matches! People are voting with their feet by not coming to watch and i cant blame them when england bat its dismal when sa bat its boring but very effective! The last couple of series v the saffers a couple of bowlers have stepped up to the plate kirtly and bicknell in 2003 hoggard particularly in 2005 but in this series we have had no one to do it south africa dont fear pace they fear good quality accurate seam bowling which we lack completely-
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Oh and let me remind you of Jukebox's comments last night when he announced to me and a waiting world that England would win the next two tests under Stan Laurel and Vaughan would score "hundreds of runs against the SA's in the next 2 tests"
Aggers 10 v 0 Jukebox
Time to hold those hands up high Jukebox.
(or is it Michael Vaughan himself).
Baztheace
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Some of the comments on here are so ludicrous people surely must be joking? England are at the moment admittadly going through a rough patch, but with some of the crazily deluded idiots they have as supporters it is no small wonder they are doing as well as they are.
We must stick with Vaughan, he is a fantastic captain, and although his form has never lived up to the hype of 02, which admittadly is frustrating for a man who bats with such graceful effortless elegence when he is in form, it is not neccessrily a complete surprise; captains have so much to deal with their form does suffer. But the most compelling reason for not dropping him, is that at present there are no viable alternatives as skipper. To pluck a county pro from oblivion and make him the captain of his country like some suggest on here should be drugs tested again before they blog on the bbc; it would not be a very healthy message to the rest of your team.
I think the biggest problem is with the wicketkeeper, I think we must stick with continuity and keep Ambrose. Prior in my mind is non starter, he failed at international cricket, where his tecnique was not up to scratch, there is no point bringing him back after a couple of months. It would destroy team morale further to have a poor wk dropping catches.
Please lets not bring back Broad, I think he has fantastic potential, but he needs to realise it in the county game. Players have to earn their test places by performing consistently in the domestic 4 day games; how Broad therefore can justify playing test cricket on the back of 1 first class 5 for beggers belief. This made him a immesurably more crazy selection than Pattinson in my mind.
If some of the people on here were selectors England would go back to bleaker times than seen in the late 80s and 90s. This was the time when after every poor game, wholescale stupid changes were made, which made the team worse, so then they would lose again and cue more elaborate sweeping changes. People seem to have short memories.
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Where to begin? Utterly dreadful performance from England, oudone only by the ridiculous selection policy! Or lack thereof. Suddenly four (and a half) bowlers is good enough again. As is Paul Collingwood's 2008 test match batting. And quite what the thinking was behind bringing Harmison into the squad, with no intention whatsoever of playing him - well it beggars belief. The only thing that they got right was to drop Broad so that he can go off and learn how to score big centuries and/or take wickets with an old ball on flat county championship wickets ahead of next summer's ashes.
Another dismal day for Ambrose and Vaughan - surely they both have three innings to save their international careers. And whilst it seems harsh to criticise the consistent Alastair Cook, he really REALLY needs to work out where his off-stump is before the arrival of the 2009 Australians.
XI for the Oval then:
Cook
Strauss
Vaughan
KP
Bell
Flintoff
Ambrose
Sidebottom
Anderson
Harmison (or indeed Simon Jones)
Panesar
And then for the Ashes:
Cook
Strauss(c)
Shah
KP
Bell
Prior
Flintoff
Broad
Sidebottom
Jones
Panesar
Both surely better than the current XI. Although I am willing Ambrose, Anderson, Vaughan et al prove me wrong overthe coming three or four days!
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Oops...bit of a rush - meant to make some comment about trusting Fred's batting again - if not his running - hence back at number six unless Prior plays or we go with six bats.
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So Stepheast thinks the SA side are mediocre.
Yes, they beat India at home, as well as winning away in Pakistan and Sri Lanka. India came from behind to share the series in India, after rolling the dice for the last test and preparing a pitch that was later judged unfit for test cricket.
The series here in the UK seems to be heading SA's way, and then the last (and toughest) frontier awaits... Australia. What else could they have done? IF they are mediocre, what does it say about every other team bar Aus?
And if none of the SA bowlers are 'class' then you need to take a long hard look at the England bowlers.
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I've just listened to the Aggers v Vaughan interview http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/7532521.stm
I cannot beleive the conceit of Vaughan saying to Aggers "you weren't good enough". Well Mr Vaughan I have a message for you - "NEITHER ARE YOU, SO PLEASE STEP DOWN AND ON YOUR WAY DOWN TAKE GEOFF MILLER WITH YOU"
Bring in Key for Vaughan, Bopara for Collingwood and Harmison for Anderson at the Oval.
We may be able to salvage at 1-2 defeat instead of 0-3; I am embarrased for English cricket.
Graham Sheppard (shepthedriver)
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Time for Colly to go should not have been recalled. Vaughan showed in first test and againt New Zealand what a class captain he is so should be given time. Anyone remember Mark Taylor a few years ago how out of form he was on an Ashes tour but came good and they won Ashes, he was a great captain and Vaughan is in same mold and we need him for next years Ashes. I personally would have had Fred Bat 6 Broad 7 and Ambrose 8.
Hows the oval playing this season? Id go in with Swann instead of Broad at Oval if its spinning
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Er softspot, you are the crazy deluded idiot you describe if you think we should stick with Vaughan.
I assume you haven't been watching any cricket as you seem to have missed the continual Vaughan ducks, the examples of his lack of leadership, responsibility, disgaceful attempts to pass the buck and then direct his bad temper towards Agnew.
Don't let any FACTS get in the way of your sycophantic support for Vaughan at a time when 99% per cent of the country quite rightly think that he should be pout out of his misery and certainly ours.
Which planet are you from, the planet delusion?
Baztheace
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To the lovelyhotspot
If you have a leaky pipe under your sink you either plug it with a temporary repair or put a new one in-vaughan is a big leaky pipe and needs to be replaced either by a player in the current team(repair) or bring in someone new to do it! If you dont do anything about it-the leak starts to cause problems in other areas!
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the1jukebox
You seem to be missing my point.
Aggers does not need any credentials as a test cricketer to be a commentator or cricket correspondant. Being a good player and being a good broadcaster are two completely different skills. It so happens that he did play (with mediocrity) in three tests and he no doubt draws on this experience to help flavour his commentary. However his test career is completely irrelevent to whether he is worth his place as the BBC's cricket correspondant.
Vaughan however is a current test cricketer, and his test cricketing credentials should OF COURSE have a bearing on his position in the team!
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I, like many fellow bloggers, went to a very minor public school. To say that I recognise the situation regarding team selection would be a huge understatement.
I am sure that when discussing matters amongst themselves the selecters and team think that things are being decided in an entirely logical and strategically competent way but team cohesion, spirit and continuity may have to take a back seat if your cohesion makes 4(c Smith b Kallis), spirit 4(c Prince b Kallis) and your continuity a first ball duck.
Get rid of the cosy, comfortable selection policy and pick on fom!
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HAving heard the Vaughan-Agnew discussion, I think it's absolutely brilliant. If this were an Aussie journalist getting Vaughan's equivalent of the hairdryer treatment, there would be absolute celebration at an English captain having the balls to stand up to a journalist. The fact that it was an English journalist is irrelevant. Had Aggers been giving Ian Botham a similar grilling, you can be sure that Aggers would have finished the interview with a) complete understanding of Botham's viewpoint and b) probably some kind of eardrum damage.
We live in times where critics are held up as being important. All those sporting pundits, all those columnists, people like Giles 'I am so precious' Coren, and yes, people like the ex-cricketing fraternity who now make their living being critical. Why shouldn't the journalists get a taste of their own medicine?
Who is leading England? We had a situation where the captain, coach and selectors clearly had differing opinions over Pattinson. We see Collingwood dropepd for poor form only to return having shown no improvement in form. I fail to see the point in dragging Harmison back into the squad if you're not going ot play him. He's not a sub bowler or someone to wait in the wings like Chris Tremlett. Throughout Peter Moores' tenure as coach, there has been a consistent lack of a clear plan with regard to the squad he wants and the best XI. The wicketkeeping situation has been an absolute farce. Frankly I think we've slipped back since the last Ashes series and that the Schofield report has done very little other than to give a few other people jobs within the England hierarchy without giving overall control. You can bet your ears that Duncan Fletcher would never have played Pattinson. Who runs Team England now?
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I feel that Broad should be in the side for his batting alone. Who knows he and Flintoff might well have have scored hundreds today for England and the outlook could have been quite different. He should come in for Colly who hasn't had much form with the bat and isn't an international bowler.
Vaughan and KP were both unlucky today with their dismissals and who knows they could have scored some runs.
I do feel though that Vaughan is going to have to start scoring or lose his place.
Cook I feel would make a good Captain.
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Absolute wonderstroke from the selectors (and Vaughan) to bring back Collingwood. I can just imagine the decision making process:
"Hey! You know that bloke who is utterly out of form with the bat and provides no genuine bowling threat? Well lets bring him in instead of that young lad, who has been batting superbly and can often chip in with a couple of wickets!"
It is a real shame what has happened to Collingwood, but this is sport and sport is about competition, both for places in the side and against the opposition. And in no sport should a player be picked just because of his name and friends within the side. It was a disgrace to drop Stuart Broad and he needs to be put back in the side asap.
As for Vaughan, I think if he hasn't completely lost it, he is going in the right direction. How he maintains a place in the side, at number 3, whilst Shah is made to sit on the sidelines is beyond me. It is an unfortunate situation, to have a Captain whose place in the squad is being seriously questioned, but that is the situation we are in like it or not.
Peter Moores needs to look at his side and have a serious think about who he wants as a Captain over the winter tests and for next summer's Ashes series. As it looks like Vaughan's position in this side is about as tenable as Gordon Brown's in Parliament.
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First of all, I take it most of you support England, yes?
So why don't you do that and SUPPORT them.
All this 'England are rubbish' and 'he needs to be dropped' is really annoying. Basically England have a good team, we could be doing better, granted, but we did win our last series and we've only lost one in this. I think what I said above goes for the media as well, I mean, just get behind our lads, encourage them so when they open the papers they're not seeing everyone after their heads.
As for the subject of Collingwood, I myself and a massive fan and contrary to my above section, I to think he needs to be dropped, but purely to gain form in the county scene. Vaughan is obviously the other major talking point and yes, he isn't offering anything much with the bat, but he is still one of the best captains ever, fact.
If everyone is on form this is the best 12:
Cook
Strauss
Vaughan
Peitersen
Collingwood
Bell
Flintoff
Prior
Broad
Anderson
Sidebottom
Panesar
For the next match, I'd play this:
Cook
Strauss
Vaughan
Peitersen
Bell
Flintoff
Ambrose (wait till the end of the series)
Broad
Anderson
Sidebottom
Panesar
One more thing; Sidebottom needs to sort his attitude out, he isn't God's gift to fielding himself, y'know. Give Monty a break.
Peace out, Andy.
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baztheace, even if i am an idiot at least im not in denial about it.
I can only assume you do not understand cricket. Vaughan is a great captain, he sets immangative quirky fields, he is alos mentally strong. In the past when he's needed runs hes produced.
4 poor innings does not mean he's useless. He has a test average over 40. Class is permanet.
Remember the last Ashes when he was not capt we were whitewashed.
Anyway who eles is there to captain?
I think your one of these so called fans who are so fickle that the next time Vughan gets a ton you will be signing his praises
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Aggers
I am sorry this is so long, and it also contains phrases like BS - extended !- which aren't exactly swear words in this day and age. I hope this is not too contentious. It appears that the ECB has too much on its plate for the mangement to make any sane decisions, from two points of view, one - the management team and two - the conflicts they have on their plate, the first will affect the ability to deal with the second.
Their first responsibility is as their name suggests. The English Cricket Board!
Yes they have a responsibility to English players, so why don't they refuse to allow contracted English players to 'contract their services to others', if the Indians can do that so can we? I realise that star players and 'journeymen' have to earn their money, but would ManU allow their players to be paid by someone else in the summer, unless it was sponsorship?
I have heard what you say about players need to get paid for their services wherever, but surely that is exactly what the Indians are trading on?
We are supposed to be the leaders of World Cricket, we need to be far tougher!
It doesn't show in our game. Even the Aussies have now given in to the IPL today I hear.
The game is, as you say, in turmoil.
Is it me? As a kid I was always accused of being the only member of the battalion in step! I am beginning to think I have always been right!, notwithstanding the many who have said I was wrong.
Can we get back to serious management, both in the country and sport.
Can we have leaders who are true leaders, believe in what they say and stick with it and can spot quality, elevate quality, and insist on quality, not pander and pussyfoot to current PC rubbish.
What on earth were the recent selection decisions about? Why isn't the skipper in the selection team, who are the idiots that dreamed all this up, they are as bad as the retired colonels (or worse) in the old county set up! It is insanity.
Why does everyone support Vaughn, come what may! His on field decisions are bad! Is that him or fear of incapable management?
His individual performances are not acceptable, either as a player, let alone Captain. Strauss did ok in India, a difficult place, and started to regularly score.
I would suggest that the main reason that the Country is underperforming is that the management structure is less than to be desired. The Captain doesn't and is seen not to exercise enough control, so the team confidence disappears. I originally thought that the appointment of 'whatsis name', the coach was a step forwards, now I am not so sure, I do not trust 'spin' and neither do more and more people. Hence Browns problems.
What I find disconcerting is all of their over indulgence in Bullshit terminology, which generally comes out of the mouths of Bullshit people, is no substance!
'The right corridor' bowl line and length. Back of a length - Bowling short.
Plus all the other meaningless phrases and platitudes that are designed to excuse highly rated (an paid) players falling short of their DUTIES from fullfilling their obligations, especially given the amount they are now paid.
If the Captain, no matter who he is, feels excluded from the selection process, how can he command his troops, how can he bollock them and make demands if he has not selected them. It is not like club cricket when you are scratching around on a friday night on the telephone to find people who will make up the numbers.
I suspect that our quality players do not have strong enough management on field, because they don't see their skipper performing and they don't see him properly in control, so 'how can he dictate to me - ego and all'. The Captain needs to be a good one and be able to hire and fire!
They are all currently turning up for their substantial match fees, very little fire in the belly, Fredie had it this evening because he was ANGRY. Can we get every player ANGRY! I hope so.
The current skipper can't perform because he doesn't feel in control or involved in the selection process, apart from which I think Vaughn is too nice, I am also not sure of his strategy, not like Illy or Closey.
I also think we have played far too much short cricket, which is not conducive to building/grinding out an innings as the SA's have done after Lords. Get Bill to research how many short cricket games have been played in SA versus UK, at all levels versus England, and interestingly also Australia?
All this new cricket is taking 'our eye off the ball' I am not sure any human (player) can adequately adapt between the different games, it is demanding too much, and I suspect it will ruin the game in the long run.
Best regards
Neil Hewitt
Tel:07749837143
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py4tt1
If you have Bentley, and it gets a flat tyre you do not go out and buy a mundane Honda. You look after it, fix its tyre and it will produce the goods for you again.
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There are a number of talented players who would surely benefit the cause better.
Collingwood is so out of form it seems inconcievable that he comes back in to the side that is struggling for both runs and wickets with an average of 9 for the series. We have to play form batsmen if we are going to select MV, or play both Flintoff and Broad..or swap PC FOR Mr. Bopara.
Ambrose is not performing with the bat, and thus without Broad the tail starts at 8. Read or Prior...on form Prior has to be a shoe in, in a side that wobbles constantly...
Lets look to the future..i,e the ashes...and start building a side.
Bopara, Denly, Prior, Read, Broad..and even Harmy if he is back on form
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"politeBoobie - maybe I need to play catch-up, but is it supposed that Vaughan is at the root of Tresco's problems?"
I've heard that the problem was actually an England coach who got a little bit too close to someone that Tresco was rather fond of
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Lets be serious a tyre is one of how many components that become defective on a car-what do you suggest we repair for vaughan? His eyes? A couple of knee replacements a tree trunk to bat with? Vaughan is so out of touch he didnt even realise he edged the ball today the guy genuinely believed he missed it! No bentleys in the england side merely a few skodas
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what is all this talk with trescothick will someone put it in black and white what actually happened
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I see all these comments calling for the ousting of Vaughan and brining in Key to captain the side. I don't know if alot of those characters are thinking straight, undoubtedly Key would make more runs and has leadership skills to become a good English captain... bringing him on in the middle of a series, out of NO-where... would destabilize England more than Pattinson did.
As for Collingwood, he needs some time away in the country-side... Broad could have possibly been played as a batsmen who can bowl a bit... he's batting has been the only positive England have had throughout the series.
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i dont understand this. all you people complain and want all these changes but Vaughn was wanting to play a side that had at least got 11 guys who had won a test together. whats wrong with that for hells sake?
keep playing a side that has won tests. simple.
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If class is permanent let's call up Gower, Botham, Boycott, May, Graveney etc etc. I believe Grace is dead, so probably not him.
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First thing England should do is fire the royal selection committee. Then fire Peter Moore then fire Vaughan.
After that bring an Aussie coach ... bring some young blood.
I personally think Sajid Mahmood should have been picked over Pattison or Anderson.
If they dont make changes I see another Whitewash coming on ASHES next year.
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DOES ANYONE AGREE WITH ME ABOUT HOW WE SHOULD INCLUDE TIM BRESNAN? A VERY GOOD ALL-ROUNDER, AS APPOSED TO COLLINGWOOD WHO IS A VERY BAD NO-ROUNDER. GIVE BRESNAN A CHANCE INSTEAD OF THAT MUPPET!
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Mr. thelovelyhotspot
If my Bentley repeatedly had a flat tyre, I may be very tempted into a 'mundane Honda'.
Do you want to repeatedly fall short of your destination 'in style' or would you prefer to reach your destination consistently albeit 'mundanely'.
Perhaps it's a matter of preference? perhaps it's a matter of national frustration.
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py4tt1; sorry mate but you started this juevnille joshing!
We need to repair nothing with Vaughan, all we need to do is back him, his class will shine through. We are a far better side with him in than without him.
His dissimssal today was unfortunate, he got the most mineute of snicks. With that thiness of an edge its perfectly understanable if you thought you did not hit it.
Even if you think vaughan is a skoda, all we unfortunatley have to replace him with is a rusty bike at the moment. There are no other suitable cantidates to be skipper at present.
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David, you can prevent yourself getting flat tyres so best to stick with the Bentley
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well im quite depressed, i have spent Ł82 on watching england collapse at the first day of headingley, and now the first day of edgbaston. i would love vaughan to have come and stand in front of the western terrace, or the eric hollies stand and explain to us why he is still there. I cannot begin to cmprehend, in fact im going crazy trying to figure out why we don't have Shah in the team.
yet again things seemed ok, but we threw it all away, im going back to edgbaston on friday...probably to watch south africa pile on the runs: our bowling= yet another weak aspect of our game. Sidebottom has caught england test match bowler syndrome and lost his control, anderson is well himself, which seems to be bad more often than great, and flintoff is reliable, but rarely rolls over the entire team.
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There is a lot of criticism of the players on here.
The performances from proven quality players has been poor for a while. Where is Peter Moores when the chips are down? If a glib over optimistic statement doesn't fit he is nowhere to be seen.
Combine weak coaching with poor selections and dismal form and you have the current England team.
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Turgid cricket from England today. I do think this team needs a fresh start, but we might as well stick it out for this series. The only player I would drop for the 4th test would be Collingwood, and bring in either Shah or Bopara.
With the team going in a new direction after this series, I would like to see it look something like this:
Cook
Strauss
Key (c)
Pietersen
Bell
Shah/Bopara
Flintoff/Broad
Foster (wk)
Sidebottom
Anderson
Panesar
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How frustrating is it being an England fan! After our problems scoring runs in the last test, we yet again see Vaughan, Collingwood and Ambrose in the starting XI when they're all currently struggling with the bat at this level. The side the selectors should have picked should have been:
Cook
Strauss
Pietersen
Bell
Shah
Prior
Broad
Flintoff
Sidebottom
Anderson
Panesar
That should more than strengthen the batting and if the bowling is then our only problem, I'd suggest replacing Broad with Simon Jones if he's fit.
I know the selectors and Vaughan like continuity but we're never going to beat a side as strong as South Africa when we're carrying players.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I'm sorry but it's not just two out of form batsmen that's the problem. Every batsman that walked out for England are under pressure that they've put on themselves. Whilst Vaughan and Colly simply aren't scoring, and Strauss, well I don't know what he's upto, Cook, Pieterson and Bell are all apparently in form, yet are still not scoring enough runs. It's not unusual for a team to loose 2 or 3 cheap wickets yet still score 500. When three wickets fell, it was the responsibility of Cook and Bell to score some big runs to match their apparent form, yet they didn't, and this is the reason England are under such pressure. If it was the other way around, and either one of Strauss, Vaughan and Collingwood were in form, and we'd lost 3 wickets, I feel that the situation would be different. For all his failings, how many times has Vaughan been the only batsman to score substantially in an England innings? At least when he does score, he makes it count.
PS - I agree Aggers, one or two losses is not a crisis. At the beginning of the summer, Vaughan was again being talked up as England's danger man..
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Aggers, I love the idea that Vaughan can't be judged on form because he was out first ball but surely his place must be in jeopardy.
If you don't score runs you don't deserve your place and both Vaughan and Collingwood are not doing that therefore shouldn't be in the team.
Pieterson and Bell should also be looked at as they both seem to have done enough in the First Test to think they can keep their places. Mind you in this Enlgland team batsman seem untouchable.
It is about time that England forgot about future exhibition games and the Ashes in 2009, no team will be the best team in the world by simply beating Australia, despite what the team and the press might think.
Play for today and pick the best team should be the thinking but unfortunately the selectors are as arrogant as the current crop of so called test players.
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Me Again - sorry!
Shah must be included in the selection process, and others I can't remember at this minute, probably others passed over before.
Historically we seem to select young players (too soon) and if they don't perform in 2/3 games, we drop them, never to be seen again. They then get disenchanted and never fullfil their potential.
Perhaps we ought to have an effective second/third eleven playing serious cricket throught the world continuosly, to bring people on through, maybe that would be too expensive? However we must do it. Maybe 20/20 should fund this directly, although 20/29 players are not test players.
But maybe that would produce the 'feed' that we need to the top levels?
Regards
Neil Hewitt
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A few thing to pick up on from the exchanges above:
1. Tresco's problem is travelling - he couldn't even do it for a Somerset pre-season tour. But if he can play at home why not play him for the Ashes - is it that or the "future" we are building for?
2. If people think Vaughan is right to tell Aggers not to criticise him because Aggers hasn't played enough tests then what right do they think they have to comment on anything at all.
3. Colly should be dropped immediately. If we can't carry a passenger against SA what hope have we got against the Aussies.
4. Vaughan should be told to score or walk. Same comment about passengers. Otherwise the selectors (if they have the balls) may have to use the phrase "by mutual consent".
5. If class is permanent then bring back Gower, Botham, Boycott etc etc, as I have already mentioned.
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I think the perrenial calls for Ramprakash are a little optimistic, if thousands of runs couldnt nudge the selectors in the last couple of seasons then his low tally this year (and the fact the runs have worryingly dried up since May) will certainly not earn a call up.
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The calls for Ramps are incredible. I was a fan of his since I first saw him when he was a teenager (16 I think), but if he's proved anything since hitting 99 centuries it's that he can't do big pressure situations anymore.
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whats the story with vaughan/tresco??
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^ The story is that one is out of form but in the side, while the other is in form but out of the side.
Still, Trescothick has retired, and that has to be respected. There is no point in yearning for his return. Something similar goes for Ramprakash - their time is over. We should be thinking about the future, not the past.
I just had a thought on Vaughan's reaction to Aggers' questioning... does this mean he is now only going to give interviews to players who have achieved more than him on an international stage? That doesn't leave many interviewers!
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No, there's a different story.. the one where tres' 'stress related illness' was allegedly caused by Vaughan? A couple of posts on here have suggested stuff but not come clean!! I've heard a rumour, but can't believe it..
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If Vaughan caused Tresco's problems, why did he pull out of the Somerset tour? If Vaughan is that powerful maybe he should stay on and lunch with the oppo.
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The list of England captains whose batting has suffered under pressure is a mile long, especially when the team has been in a bad patch. Does Vaughan not have a good batting coach in the nets and supportive batters at the other end ?. I recall an ex test batsmen telling me that he got into and corrected a habit of playing across the line around leg stump only when a team mate batting with him told him about it.
The carping about MVs´captaincy seems unreasonable. He surely gave the new ball to Anderson expecting him to swing it. Had the bowler done so and knocked over two or three SA batsmen on the way to England getting them out for 300 or less (could still happen), MV would be hero. In any case, it´s only a game, albeit a beautiful one, so enjoy watching it. I wish I could but we can only listen here in Nicaragua, and John Arlott is no longer there to make it live.
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Broad may not "be there to make runs" as so many people keep saying, but he's about the only one who was making them. So he only took an odd wicket but averages almost 50 with the bat.. so what? Stack his recent stats up against Collingwood's. No competition.
If there was someone - ANYONE - worth their salt in the lower half of the batting order, they could have held an end up while Flintoff went about his business at the other end. On recent form, the most likely player to hang around for a bit and chip in an energetic 50 or so in the process would be Broad. I honestly think that his presence there in his current form could easily have added another 100 runs to the England first innings score one way or another. So Broad might only take 1 or 2 wickets per match? I don't care. Remind me how many wickets our other 50-and-out specialists (Cook, Bell etc) have taken lately.
Collingwood's recall just looks like someone felt guilty because they saw him make a grumpy face. If I was in his form, I'd make one too.
If they want to take pity on someone and let it influence their selections, they should turn to the people who ARE performing consistently well instead of insiting on keeping the old boys' club intact, no matter how useless it looks.
Colly out; Broad in.
Bell out; Shah in.
Ambrose out; anyone in.
But what's the point now? The series looks like it's gone already, and even though I'm sure the selectors have had a huge part to play, it's the players out on the field who've failed over and over again. They just look like they don't give a toss.
Darren Gough for coach - it's the only way.
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Good point, i'm now certain there is more to it than meets the eye tho!
The Vaughan/Aggers thing is ridiculous.. Aggers is stating the obvious.. Vaughan IS trying to get runs, he's not getting out on purpose is he?! He'd love to score 100 after to 100! They're both adults and if Aggers is big enough to dish it out, then he's big enough to take it! Vaughan's not being vain or arrogant, he's just giving as good as he gets! is that not allowed??!
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I know MV like to be up the order but maybe he should swap with Bell and move down ????
Colly needs a break and should be replaced by Shah. Colly needs to go away and learn to love the game again.
Ambrose out for Prior.
KP needs to think about the teams needs more, getting out when he did was silly.
Also can someone get the tail-enders some basic batting practice organised it must have slipped their minds that EVERYONE has to bat and when you hit the ball sometimes you have to run between wickets and the idea is NOT to get out !!!
This is the team i'd have picked.
Stauss
Cook
Bell
KP
Vaughan
Shah
Freddie
Prior
Jones/Broad
Sidebottom/Hoggard
Monty
It bats very deep if you go with Broad who is looking more and more like a second all-rounder. If Broad needs a rest and he's not taking enough wickets, go with Jones who has come good after his injury and has played tests before.
I reckon Freddie Joney Sidy and Monty can take enough wickets.
The selectors have cost us the series already.
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How many people here have played sport at a reasonable/high level? Form comes and goes. Unlike other sports, with Cricket you can make a mistake and that's it, you're out and you can't redeem yourself. Leave Vaughan alone and give him some space to prove himself. He has a lot on his shoulders with being captian per se and with how England are performing at the moment. Naturally he will feel the pressure as he is England captain and in the spotlight, what he doesn'r need is the people and press hankering after him. He is still a quality player and still, I think, deserved of his place in the side - I agree with Cook, he will come good.
However, overall I think England need to take a look at themselves, in particular KP. In the second test the Sky team spoke about him 'earning the right to be an attacking player' - I don't think KP should be looking to attack under any 'right' he should be playing sensibly for the team. Yesterday, he was again trying to push the ball through the on-side to a delivery that was on the stumps and could have easily been defended?
Strauss gettig out, and in the manner he did, wasand just what England didn't need; then there was Vaughan, who yes was unlucky, but he hasn't got his line right; and then KP - game in tatters.
I think what they need is some blood and guts, less whinging, 100% effort and a huge competitve edge.
Well done Cook, young lad with a good head on his shoulders. And Bell for getting a 50.
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I agree that England were once again most disappointing today and that Collingwood and Vaughan are desperately out of form. However I am a big fan of both but believe that only Collingwood should be left out as Vaughan has proved his captaincy is without question. Who else would be better? Strauss? Pietersen? (we all know that he's not the man as he's too good a batsman) Collingwood? (see above) Flintoff? (remember the Ashes 2006/07)..................South Africa aren't as superior to England as they appear to be at the moment.
The man to bring in would be Shah as he oozes class and Bell should be the next man for the chop because he never convinces when the chips are down or Pietersen isn't batting at the other end!
Hopefully Freddie will work his magic, Monty will look the bowler we all know he is.....and if all else fails BRING BACK DAVID GOWER!!!!
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The complacent comments of Cook leave me worried. He fails to score big when it matters and says 'oh, i'll turn the corner soon' -while in the meantime a test match is lost -no skin off his back obviously. Disgraceful.
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I read most of these posts and there's a lot of good suggestions. I detect almost unanimity on Vaughan and Collingwood and Ambrose and Broad. And there are a lot of good questions about the selections, the selectors and their mode of operation. The selection process, cloaked in secrecy and absent any public discussion or justification, doesn't appear to have changed much since I emigrated in the mid-1970s. The "selectors" seem to have almost unlimited power and absolutely no accountability. So until that's changed, blogs such as this - despite the wisdom and innovation they contain - are just so much ineffectual hot air.
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HAHAHAHAHA. England are, at best, an average county side. That Vaughn character, not much of player, is he? I bet South Africa wish they had some 'real' competition from AUS/IND/SL.
Said before, but needs to be said again: OVERRATED!
A 'nothing special' mid-table international team with no world-class performers.
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Not wishing to excuse a generally poor batting performance, but I must have been watching something different to you Aggers. Vaughan did not hit it, neither did Pietersen and nor was he lbw. Strauss will feel no responsibility-just a freaky dismissal. Yes, Colly looked like a rabbit in the headlights but Cook and Bell must take responsibility and start converting these starts.
bourneagaincricketer just after midnight, you were drunk right? Must've been a goodun, hope the hangover is OK this morning.
Lovin' the 'drop everyone' brigade-keep it up chaps!
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This was a truly heartless performance from England. Do any of the current players really take pride in protecting their wicket?
Collingwood's test career has surely met its ending. Nice guy he may be but it was tortuous watching him fiddle around for the best part of an hour.
The dismissal of Ambrose was incredibly soft. His bat wasn't straight, his feet were stationary and there was no conviction in his defensive shot. I know I've criticised Prior before but he's in form so get him back in to the fold NOW!
And it's time for Vaughan to hold his hands up and admit that his best days are behind him now. Why did he have to lunge at his first ball which was at least a foot outside off stump? The South Africans know where their stumps are but alas, poor Michael seems to have forgotten.
If we don't give some of the fringe players (Tremlett, Prior, Foster, Shah, Bopara, Key, Jones etc) a decent run during the winter then we can kiss the Ashes good-bye before they've even begin.
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Firstly, England haven't lost the Test (and series) - yet. However, a score as modest as that, at least 70 runs below par, is not a good start.
Vaughan is in a longer trot of poor form than Cook suggests, he averages 30.08 as captain against the top sides while his 54.45 average against West Indies and Bangladesh keeps his overall batting average looking respectable.
Depending what time period you take, some could be considered too long, others too short, you'll find he's barely hit form. To be frank, with a batting average as captain of 36.24 you're unlikely to find too much good form and plenty of poor form to counterbalance it.
Vaughan's batting as captain
01-10 : 595 runs @ 33.06
11-20 : 658 runs @ 38.71
21-30 : 655 runs @ 40.94
31-40 : 726 runs @ 40.33
41-50 : 519 runs @ 30.53
Total : 3,153 runs @ 36.66
51st Test has so far produced zero runs. Those figures may not look to bad, take away the West Indian and Bangladeshi whipping boys and :-
Without WIN/BAN
01-10 : 361 runs @ 25.79
11-20 : 109 runs @ 21.80
21-30 : 491 runs @ 35.07
31-40 : 475 runs @ 33.93
41-50 : 519 runs @ 30.53
Total : 1,955 runs @ 30.55
As for the rest, well Strauss' poor technique started a collapse, but Vaughan and Collingwood who a growing number of people would have dropped both of, managed a massive 4 runs between them - all pretty painfully ground out. Vaughan got a decent ball, however he's batting like a lower order batsman so unlikely to find form soon and Collingwood got out playing a silly shot. C5 showed how Collingwood played the ball outside off stump to leg and got out, whereas Bell had cover driven a ball in the same area. Maybe the truth is bowlers know how Collingwood scores runs and simply outwait him. Cut off his supply and wait for him to try to play his favourite shot to the wrong ball and bingo - his number's up............
But perhaps the most annoying thing, believe me I was FURIOUS, was how Flintoff managed to run out his last two partners. There was no need for it, Anderson can hang around and Flintoff had already helped himself to a six and a four. That was stupid cricket, part of England's longstanding plan of farming the strike. It's even more annoying when England are in the field, trying to coax the tailender on strike for a few balls at him when the fact is they have as much chance of getting the batsman out as the tailender. Batsman hits a couple of twos or a four, lets the tailender on strike who faces 2-3 balls comfortably then we start the process again next over.
If you exclude the West Indies and New Zealand series, which on the form of the two sides is pretty much a gimme - wins in 2007, 07/08 and 2008 :-
England since 2005 Ashes (excl. WIN/NZE)
W 2005 ENG 2-1 AUS
L 05/06 PAK 2-0 ENG
L 05/06 IND 1-1 ENG
D 2006 ENG 1-1 SRI
W 2006 ENG 2-0 PAK
L 06/07 AUS 5-0 ENG
L 2007 ENG 0-1 IND
L 07/08 SRI 1-0 ENG
L 2008 ENG 0-1 SAF
Pretty awful, Flintoff is in for his eighth consecutive Test defeat. Captain Strauss has won the only series against decent opposition since 2005, Flintoff managed two draws and a seriously bad Ashes series defeat
We need changes at the top as well methinks
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As soon as Vaughan is dropped, Tresco will be available for selection again.
Google both of their names if you do not know why this is. (more reason for Vaughan to be dropped)
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The selection has been horrible. Broad can play in the team based on his batting alone, his batting average so far is higher than Colly's, so I would have dropped Colly for Broad and then we can have an extra bowler! OK, quantity does not mean quality, but Broad could give us valuable runs.
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England's miserable 90's came about precisely because they made the mistake of treating 'consistency' as being more important that 'form' Yes, we had a consistent side in the early 00's, but that was because the players were all on form.
We lost the Ashes in Oz because we clung to a few out-of-form players for too long and had our morale crushed.
It's no good Vaughan saying that Pattinson felt out of place in the dressing room at Headingley. That's exactly the captain's job - make him feel that he deserves his place.
No matter how good a field tactician he is, out of form with the bat and unable to lift the dressing room (unless it's filled with his 'mates') means Vaughan has to go. If we don't win this test, then the Oval is the place to experiment and blood some young players.
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Rob Key Rob Key Rob Key
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Quotes;
?It was a question of shape and we thought that was the best shape to our team,? said Moores.
Moores said: 'Sport is what it is - you go out there together and get stuck in. Sometimes you cajole each other and sometimes you shout at each other.'
He also offered a bizarre defence of Collingwood's recall, saying: 'He's playing pretty well in practice.'
With only 23 runs in four innings against South Africa this summer, Vaughan's place in the side is under more scrutiny than at any stage during his England career. However, he found support from Moores, who felt the captain was unlucky to be given out caught behind off a faint edge.
"He did not get a chance to get in," said Moores. "It was a tough decision but he takes it on the chin. He has been around the block. We are disappointed after a decent start that we didn't push on but that is what we have got.
I think this say it all! If a coach cannot say it as it is what hope is there?
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Unless a miracle happens and Vaughan, Collingwood and Ambrose score some big runs, here is my team for the final test
Strauss
Cook
Bell
Pietersen
Shah
Bopara
Prior
Flintoff
Sidebottom/Broad
Anderson
Panesar
For the next tour the above 12 plus:
S.Jones, Foster, Key and one other batsman
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Whilst agreeing with many of the other comments, the main problem with the batting was a complete lack of attacking intent. Apart from a few lusty blows from Flintoff (far too late by the way), everyone else was just prodding or leaving. Nothing is more guaranteed to give the bowlers confidence than not being attacked.
As it was the whole team that played like this, we must assume that they were obeying tactical instructions from the Captain or the Coach, such as "Stay in at all costs."
I'm afraid Vaughan has now lost confidence and authority as a captain as well as a batsman, probably the one being a result of the other.
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the futures of both vaughan and collingwood clearly in jepody, but it is pieterson who concerns me the most.
I suspect he is suffering from 20-20 vision, normally a good thing but in this case not so. the impression he gives is that each visit to the crease is an audition for the IPL and another opportunity to increase his auction value. he is not a team player!
perhaps a move down to number 5 with bell at 4 would would focus his mind.
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I was trying to make an England XI based on professions, like Cook etc.
But then I realised we've got it already, a side including 11 Bottlers !!!
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To all those who I assume live with Vaughan and keep saing he will come good get real.
He has had 2 years to come good and failed. Collingwood has had a year to come good and failed. Have these guys no pride. If the had pride they would say hell I am no good I had better go back to county cricket and sort myself out.
As for Vaughan comments to aggers it shows how low the man has sunk. How much further will he go just to hold on to a place he no longer deserves.
England supporters deserve better.
Stop harking on about the Ashes 2005. That series was won by a team. England do not have a team now and will not have as long as we have Michael Vaughan in the side.
No one wants to leave a job they like but in the real world these things happen.
Time for some reality from the selectors or new selectors.
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The amount of people clammering for Priors inclusion is absolutely baffling. Although he may be the best batsman who happens to keep wicket available to England, his batting is not up to the standard of other similar players who would have merited inclusion just as batsmen in their national sides a la Gilchrist or Sangakara. Also when you subtract the amount of runs he gives away by misfields dropped catches and missed stumping opportunities his average as shown in an excellent Cricinfo article on Tuesday is in the minuses and comfortably the worst of any english keeper since Stewart hung up the gloves.
In Short it should be clear to anyone with the smallest bit of cricket knowledge that in the test form of the game any extra runs Priors better batting might add wouldn't even nearly make up for the extra runs his dismal keeping would afford the Saffers
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What does it say about England's selection policies when the team has recently set a world record for fielding an unchanged team in six successive tests, yet has lost as many tests as it won during this period (mainly against a weak test side ravaged by injuries etc). And the latest team is still effectively unchanged from that which would have been the selectors' preferred team at the start of the summer, bearing in mind that Flintoff would have been in the team from the start if he had been fit then.
England's problem is that the so-called benefit of continuity in selection is turning out to be a curse. All players will show peaks and troughs in performance, so if you pick the same team for match after match, you are likely to have 3 or 4 who will be out of form and likely to fail (currently Collingwood and Vaughan are well out of form with the bat, made worse by the fact that none of other batsmen are anything close to top form). Meanwhile, there are in-form players in the wings (Bopara, Shah, S Jones etc) who are in top form and ignored.
Go back to selecting players based on recent form, give them two or three games in the side and if they don't perform, look for someone else. That also applies to the captain who should be appointed match by match after the team is selected. It means the players are under pressure to perform, but that is what international sport is about - top players thrive under pressure and will raise their game.
Team for next test match barring some miraculous improvements over the next few days:
Strauss (captain for now but with no guarantee of place longer term)
Cook
Shah
Pietersen
Bell
Bopara (942 first class runs this season and another 3 first class wickets yesterday - he's not just a one day player)
Flintoff
Foster
Sidebottom
S Jones (unless Anderson bowls really well this test)
Panesar (last chance)
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The team is starting to get the air of the Mid-90s about them. A closed shop with a cliquey atmosphere by those at the very top end of the team.
Time for a complete change. In my opinion only Cook, KP, Bell, Flintoff, and Panesar should keep their places.
On the batting side Shah, Bopara, and one of Key/Horton/Denly/Moore should come in. All 6 of them have been on top form this summer in the county game and should be given a chance.
On the wicketkeeping front their are several candidates that can come in, Prior at Sussex would be the favourite to replace his former county colleague (should be noted that Sussex allowed Ambrose to go to Warwicks without much of a fight even as Prior was starting to get into England reckoning). The other candidates would be Geraint Jones, James Foster, Chris Read, and Steven Davies. Personally would love to see Davies in the side as I'm a Worcester fan, but I think someone like Foster is the better choice as he is the best gloveman out of the 5.
On the bowling front their is 2 guys that need to come in to the team, one is an Ashes Hero, and the other is the only guy with 50 Wickets this summer, Simon Jones and Kabir Ali. The other bolwing slot shouldthen be a straight shootout between the likes of Anderson, Broad, Sidebottom, Pattinson, and Murtagh. Anderson was starting to show signs of consistency against the Kiwi's earlier this summer, but against the Saffies he has fallen into his old habits. Broad would probably be best served playing in County Cricket for the rest of the summer as his bowling needs a little work. Sidebottom has struggled this series, while Pattinson and Murtagh have been two of the best bowlers in County Cricket this season.
My squad for the next test would be:
Cook
Key
Bell
Pietersen
Shah
Bopara
Foster
Flintoff
Ali
Jones
Murtagh
Panesar
With the eleventh place in the team to be between Bopara and Murtagh. As for Captain, it would have to be Bell
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The most frustrating thing is I don't have enough fingers to point at the entire England setup. The selectors have got it badly wrong, with no rhyme or reason to particular selections. e.g. if the ball was swinging at Headingley, why not play Hoggard on his home ground (and he's taken some championship wickets). I agree with most of the board here that a dramatic overhaul is needed, but disagree that Broad is the answer to the problems (his bowling has been fairly poor). Bring in Shah, Key, Harmison, Jones, Foster??, they all deserve a go because surely they will do better than this lot..
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Oh dear Oh dear... the team are starting to resemble our overpaid useless footballers. Also lets have no more of the stupid glove punching after every paltry run it just makes them look even more pathetic if that is possible.
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There is nothing new about reflecting on inadequate performances, or on happier occasions good ones, it's part of the enjoyment of cricket.
It does seem to me that we play more and more one day cricket and often players are measured on their ability in this form of the game and this can lead to consideration for selection.
It's a shame that when people such as Collingwood are sent back to the counties to score runs then they don't really get regular County Opportunities to do this.I expect this will get worse rather than better.
Where are we now? Strauss is doing just enough, but is in need of some serious runs before the end of this series. If he gets these and I hope he does, it would put him in the frame for Captaincy.
Cook, good lad let's watch him develop, best young talent in the team.
Vaughan, he really does not do it as a number three right now. He reminds me strangely of Mike Brearley a really good captain who doesn't score runs. The thing is Brearley got masses out of everyone else and just now Vaughan isn't really doing that. I'd probably play Bell at three and shift Vaughan to five or six. But if he doesn't get any runs in the rest of this series, his place would be in doubt, to be replaced by Strauss.
Kevin, a genius who just doesn't do it consistently and thus can't be thought of as great...yet. With such a gifted talent in the side this is the man that the captain has to make work. In the same way that Brearley brought the discarded Botham back and set him free. Pieterson should be worth two batsmen and give the whole team a buzz. Keep him away from the captaincy.
Bell, another player who does okay, but I can imagine him being encouraged to deliver more.
Collingwood, there is no argument for him to be in the team. He needs a long stretch in the Counties, there is just no reason to play him at all. In form he is a real prospect as a regular at six. Obviously he impacts on the fielding in the best way.
Replaced by maybe Shah.
Ambrose...the wicket keeping is a real problem for England, I'd go for Foster or Prior. We do not seem to have a glove man who is head and shoulders above everyone else. Having said that Stewart wasn't a great keeper to start with, but with application he became very good. So I'd go for a bat who keeps. With a more reliable 1-6 this would be an easier choice and job.
Bowling...Broad a decent bat, doesn't qualify as a bowler who gets regular wickets. Surely will become an England regular, another one for the County circuit.
Sidebottom, I just can't stand his babyish behaviour, he just is just not good enough for all the hysterics and rudeness ...just get on and bowl. Should be in the team needs managing properly.
Anderson, has flattered to deceive from the start,I'd love to see him taking wickets regularly. He has worked hard at his game and should be considered.
Panasar... We have invested a lot in him and he should be judged just on his bowling, I'd stick with him. Rashid should be in the tour party.
Flintoft... injuries aside, the most reliable and exciting of players. He is now rightly thought of as a world class bowler and at 6/7 he gives me encouragement. How can any team with Flintoft and Pietersen be struggling for belief?
Harmison...I'm not a great believer, but it's nothing that half a dozen wickets in a test match wouldn't put right. To beat the best teams you need the best players and on his day, Harmison is mustard.
Jones...I am pleased he has had the County season and he would be straight back into the team for the tour and depending on how fit he feels the final test
So having thought about the current team it seems to me that the selection is questionable...Ambrose and Collingwood.
There are several players underachieving and if Vaughan is such a great leader he should be getting more, much more, out of the team. If the team overall produced more then as a batsmen he would be under less pressure.
At the moment there is an inevitability about England being dominated by the other team.
I really hope today we go out and have a great day in the field and are batting tonight.
However if we have a day where Freddie doesn't do it (and he doesn't often take big wicket hauls). We could watch Anderson bowling to far from the stumps, Sidebottom swearing a lot and Monty bowling on a strangely subdued pitch.
Time for Captain Vaughan to lead.
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Do you reckon Michael Vaughan had a wink of sleep last night ?? I don't !!!
Not only did he middle one behind first balls and then decide to try and trick the umpire into saying he didn't. This golden duck will hopefully be the final nail in his test playing coffin. If rumours are true then yorkshire don't want a one legged walking wicket playing for them either. Now where to most ex england captains go out to graze.....in the media !!! With his childish respones to the perfectly reasonable questioning by Aggers he has probably scuppered any chance of a media career now too.
This time next year it will be...
"big mac and fries please, Michael"
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194 comments at the time of writing and we seem to be going round and round in circles!
Vaughan's captaincy has looked devoid of ideas for some time and I'm really not convinced that he now has the dressing room behind him. If you add his batting woes into the equation, it is time for him to regain some sort of form at county level.
Key is not the choice to come straight into the team as captain. Cook is the long-term successor so who is remaining to fulfil a short-term role? It has to be Strauss.
Strauss' batting flourished with the added responsibility of captaincy against Pakistan. While he may not be the most popular man in the dressing room given his privileged upbringing, he commands respect amongst his peers and has an excellent cricket brain. He is the man for the next year and should possibly lead us through to the Ashes next year with Cook to take over after that.
You may not like it but he is the only tried and tested Test captain available to us right now!
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So many wasted words -who reads -who listens?
Let us not be so mealy mouthed as those who make a living from commentating etc.
Vaughan to go.
Moores to go.
All selectors to go.
Fresh blood to bring better motivation,and some idea of how to teach and coach and understand professionals.
Something is rotten in the state of Edgbaston right now.........
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Well the absymal performance has certainly roused the masses.
I hace said before that i think the whole selection policy needs a shake up a BIG shake up.
Players should be picked on a per series basis given reasonable targets to achieve and then everyone knows where they stand.
Whether Vaughan gets 300 runs in the next match is immaterial in my view he has had his time many thanks to him but at the end of this series hes finished in my view.
This will give a new captain a winter series and a little time to get a new squad together and hopefully gel before the Aussies next year.
As for freddie he looked distraught that on the one occasion he was scoring some runs others let him down.......remember that feeling freddie and think back how many times others must have felt the same way.
So who for captain is the next question ??? although i dont like the idea KP is the only man in the batting who is guaranteed to be around next year so IMO it has to be him.
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Freerandfairer
what game were you watching because vaughan 100 percent hit that ball today snicko shows it clearly and whilst i agree that pieterson was not out caught the lbw was marginal-and after all it was england that refused the opportunity to trial the referal system! You make your own luck
and just to go back to what thelovelyhotspot said about captains form suffering due to the captaincy burden has he forgotten a mr ricky ponting or even a mr steve waugh-
and hope for the best
pietersons suppossed over agression still allows him to average 50-the problem being no one stands up to be counted when he fails-that is what makes teams successful one of englands top 6/7 should be making a ton in the first innings of a test most matches but that never happens
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The selectors have to take responsibiity for this . How on earth they thought Collingwood would recover his form after one test out is beyond me,he needs time in County cricket to regain his form then and only then should he be considered.
We have to face the fact we are just not good enough against top class teams, if we are to compete there needs to be root and branch reform, get people like Boycott and Botham on selection and start building a team for the future otherwise the Aussies will anihilate us.
For the time bein I would drop Collly drop Vaughan to bat at 5/6 bring in Bopara or Shah and have a squad of bowlers including the incumbents plus Harmison Hoggard and Jones and rotate them depending on the conditions and venue.
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Low Quality what planet are you on?
You refer to Agnew as a mediocre cricket player. He wishes!
He was absolutely rubbish as Sir Geoff keeps reminding the little weed.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
on the face of it the case for bopara being given a chance dose see strong, however his play on tour in new zealand was not impessive. his batting and bowling averages are excellent but in division 2.
he's a good fielder and can bowl, perhaps a natural replacement for collingwood?
as for panesar an earlier comment that he can't bat ,field or run is accurate. for most of the time he's a passenger and turnig wickets are not very often seen. swan a good fielder and a sound bat could be the answer.
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We have two main problems, both in the batting line-up and both in crucial positions.
Vaughan is the walking epitomy of "one brings two" and Collingwood, another walking wicket, exposes the tail when he is out.
Between these two batsmen are Ian Bell and Kevin Pietersen, and if they don't fire England are out cheaply.
We need changes at 3 and 6 and we need them now.
Personally I'd bring in Bopara at 5, shunting KP to 3 and Bell to 4, have Flintoff at 6, Broad 7, then Ambrose, Jones, Anderson and Panesar.
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The current South African bowling line up is in good form.
England bowlers need to take quick wickets today and allow their batsmen to put up a formidable score in their second innings.
Best of luck to Michael Vaughan, Paul Collingwood and the rest.
The boys need to be encouraged to enjoy their game.
Dr. Cajetan Coelho
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shah in for vaughn
broad in for collingwood
foster in for ambrose
team's a good'n
bopara, broad, flintoff at 6, 7, 8 would be interesting too.
rob key is not going to be captain of england, even though he's mates with freddie and colly etc... thankfully that isn't going to be the number 1 selection criteria for much longer...
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why would we pick bopara again he has failed many times for england shah is a better replacement he has only had 2 tests plus if vaughan stays as captain which he shouldnt he doesnt like to bowl his part time medium pacers so bopara wouldnt bowl shah is the man to get a decent run
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Well at least we no longer have the exaltations of what proper test cricket is all about. Like a true Scots summer, that day at Lords is but a distant memory.
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Aggers.
It all started going wrong when you upset Vaughan with your interview with him before the match.
Seriously, listening to his reply to a fairly straightforward question he seems to have lost the plot.
England need a new captain and Vaughan needs to improve his performance if he is to retain his place on the team.
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I really can't understand the whole selection policy. Sure Vaughan and Collingwood are quality cricketers but clearly out of form. Why don't we have a squad of 18 or 20 cricketers for each match and then pick the best players based on recent form. This is what happens in soccer. Those that are not picked should then be sent back to their counties so that the England team management can continue to assess their form. As far as Stuart Broad goes, he's scored more runs in this series than Collingwood and Vaughan put together, so maybe he should play as a specialist batsman!! (not serious).
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Bopara has to come in for Collingwood now, he is in the form of his life and his bowling isnt too shabby either, he has the knack of getting wickets whenever he is called upon, he is also decent in the field and would bring some enthusiasm to the side which looks dissilusioned at the moment.
Dont know what to do with Vaughan, cant see a natural succesor as captain in the side already and i cant imagine a new boy would be given the captaincy so what do they do? Drop him down the order to 5 or 6 and hope we have some runs on the board before he gets in until he finds some touch?
Strauss is also a big worry, we need a player at the top of the innings who is disciplined to bat all day, we have enough fast scoring players (pietersen, bell, flintoff) to allow a player to set anchor but the team woefully lacks a player with this discipline. Bowling attack needs sprucing up a bit as well, Anderson is only good if conditions are A1 for him and the same go's for Paneser, the pitch cant be A1 for both so one has to make way each test, think Paneser should hold his place as he gets through a lot of overs so Anderson should make way for Jones or Harmison.
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With England in such a mess I believe they need to start from scratch and pick form players and drop players off form.
They need to resort to 5 batsmen, one all-rounder, one wichetkeeper and 4 bowlers.
Strauss
Cook
Bell
Pietersen
Bopara
Flintoff (c)
Foster
Sidebottom
S Jones
Anderson
Panesar
Each Bowler offers something different.
Bopara will have a similar effect next summer that Pietersen had in 2005.
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I'd love to see Rashid play. A very promising leg spinner who can hold a bat? Sign me up to that fan club.
If we lose this test, this is the team I'd like to see -
Denly
Cook
Bell
KP
Prior (as Batsman)
Flintoff
Broad
Rashid
Foster
Jones
Harmison
Not sure about Denly as opener, but I'd like to see him in there. Let's try and build something for next years Ashes.
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Jonathan,
I enjoyed hearing your verbal sparring with Vaughan before play. It's pretty clear from his tone and attitude, as many have noted, that the pressure is really beginning to tell. Despite his outward calm and unflappability, Vaughan knows only too well that he needs runs; I still believe he is capable of those runs if he changes positions in the batting order. Either he opens, as he used to with Trescothick to play positively from the off, as was so effective when he did, or he shifts down to 4 or even 5, to give him time to collect his thoughts as captain before batting.
Collingwood is a different kettle of fish altogether; personally, I have never rated him as a test batsman due to his technique and I think there are far more gifted and effective batsmen we could employ at 6, Shah and Bopara being the obvious contenders.
Simon Jones has got to come back into the squad for the last test, ahead of Harmison, and depending on how Sidebottom's back holds up, I would play Jones in his place with Bopara at 6. James Foster to keep wicket.
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Broad is one of our better batsmen at the moment
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Why did Vaughan not give Flinoff the new ball. Because Vaughan is just going through the motions with regard a job he has lost all passion for
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What an idiotic thing to say.
Flintoff is still being eased back into test cricket and as all three were to be used befoe the close anyway does it really matter if he bowls the first over or not?
As for Vaughan's passion, he has that in Spades, his captaincy has been consistently excellent this year as always, it is purely his batting form that has suffered. If any out of form batsman is to be used then it must be him.
Collinwood's return after just one county match was stupid, as good as he is he needed some time away to regain some form. OK I understand the desire for 6 proper batsmen but it would have been much better to either bring in another (Key, Shah etc.) or drop Ambrose in favour of Prior than to recall Collingwood.
If Broad really is fatigued then leave him out as well, he is young, playing county cricket will still help him, let Harmison i to show whether he has fully recovered or not.
Remember the most important thing in English cricket is the Ashes. By letting the likes of Collingwood, Broad and Simon Jones remain with their counties it will help all three of them prepare for that. Bringing in Harmison will also let them assess him for that series (Prior too I would say). Thpse moves could lead to a much stronger side against the Aussies.
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Why has everyone got it in for Bell? I agree that he doesnt score as many as he should but is usually good for 50 or so. If there were scores of batsmen clamouring for his place but once you replace Vaughan and Collingwood (hopefully temporarily) you have pretty well run out of other options. A team with Shah, Bopara and Key in will not inspire much confidence although any one of them could be given an extended run. I suggest Key for Vaughan, Broad for Collingwood and Jones for Anderson whenever he is fit enough. Oh and someone needs to give KP a good slapping - preferably regularly.
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A lot of support for Key.
Stats aren't everything but they aren't very persuasive for Key inclusion.
Average 31 in tests.
1 hundred in 26 innings
1 series against S Africa - a single half century and an average of 25.5.
Also worried about the expectation that Flintoff will be England's saviour.
Slightly worse bowling average than Kallis. With the bat; Flintoff 32.41, Kallis 56.28. Never 10 wickets in a match. 5 wickets in an innings only twice.
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With England in such a mess I believe they need to start from scratch and pick form players and drop players off form.
They need to resort to 5 batsmen, one all-rounder, one wichetkeeper and 4 bowlers.
Strauss
Cook
Bell
Pietersen
Bopara
Flintoff (c)
Foster
Sidebottom
S Jones
Anderson
Panesar
Each Bowler offers something different.
Bopara will have a similar effect next summer that Pietersen had in 2005.
___________________________________
MCARRO, your team is almost spot on. I think Bopara or Shah should be in the side, but I'm not sure Freddie should be captain. Maybe look to Cook or Pietersen as a new captain for the long term. Totally agree Foster is the man for the gloves, and would love to see Simon Jones back in the side, and all the others are playing well on form which is what matters.
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Once again I write not just because of yesterday but I repeat what I have mailed to you for six moths. Vaughan and Pietersen should be dropped. Like every English captain before him Vaughan has lost batting form. If bowlers are sent back to Counties to regain form, why cannot Vaughan and Pietersen be asked to do likewise?
Vaughan has hit a new low in pretending he didn't edge a straight first ball. Pietersen has always given one great innings followed by five poor ones.
Both of these players really believe that they are un-droppable. I think most fans believe that too.
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People are saying Vaughan should apologise to Agnew and maybe but Agnew should apologise to Vaughan. He shouldn't have asked Vaughan that question in that way just before the start of such a pressure test. And though Vaughan reacted badly I don't think the media should be trying to undermine further the confidence of the England Captain. A point picked up on by Pollock and unsurprisingly as only in this country do we have such a culture of building up and then enjoying the bringing down even more. Agnew often criticises English
players in a very negative way and considering his own record Vaughan had a point in many ways.
You only have to look at how Broad is being built up above his level already. He is not yet a test bowler but, he will be a great one. Don't repeat the mistakes of Anderson and let him learn his trade in county cricket first. There is no rush! Especially with Harmison and Jones and Hoggard on the sidelines.
Consider this. Since Vaughan's return he has played series against the Windies, India, New Zealand and half a series against South Africa.
He has scored centuries in this time against W. Indies, India and New Zealand. If Vaughan scores one in his next three innings he will have scored one against every opposition since his return. I'm not sure who else has done this in the current line-up. I hope Vaughan does score a big hundred but, I bet you'll still find a way to be on his back....
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A possible consideration ?
Given that Trescothick, or someone of equal ability and character, seems to be urgently required in our batting line-up is there no possibility of considering him as an 'at home only' option.
I've raised this as a talking point - not sure I even agree with it myself - but given the incredible short sightedness of our selectors and the current vogue for choosing players on a suitability for wicket/paticualr venue/match etc why not conside Trescothick in the above context, particularly given our next at home oponents.
We do after all choose players for specific conditions likely on tour e.g two spinners will definitely be taken to India, Pakistan etc but not selected for home.
Had we any other outstanding candidates at the top of the order who stood head and shoulders above all others for the role then this would not be any sort of option but I just can't see them.
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Couldn't agree more with AJConroy.
The cricketers are now so well paid that they have become smug and arrogant, going exactly the same way as the footballers.
I am 100% sure that Pitersen thinks he is undroppable and that Vaughan thought he was, although he may be getting the message too late.
And, it is the fault of the media and the supporters.
If we build these people up into believing that they are superstars why should we be surprised when then act like it.
The only difference between the lucky ones who get into the test 11 and the county players who have the same skills is simply that they have been lucky.
Players don't get dropped for the simple reason that this would reflect on the selectors.
Id we have selected X for match 1, then dropping him for match 2 implies that we made the wrong selection the first time.
Of course, now we don't even drop players any more because they are no longer good enough, we say that they are being rested.
Realistically, there are at least three players in the current team who should be dropped because their form isn't good enough - Vaughan, Collingwood and Ambrose.
And two who should be dropped because they aren't taking it seriously - Pietersen who has no patience, getting out twice ten minutes before lunch, and Sidebottam who blames other fielders for not saving his wide balls costing us runs.
But it will never happen.
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Whereas Vaughn's form is an area of concern (to him aswell if that blast at Aggers is anything to go by) I think he should still be in the team for his captaincy and tactical nous.
What I don't agree with is the idea of if you are 'in the club' you'll get picked whatever form you are in. England should learn from the dismal failure of the England football team recently who have been similarily criticised for sticking with players who are plainly out of form.
I've heard people say that certain players are picked because they are 'characters in the dressing room' but you don't score runs or take wickets in the dressing room. We need players with character and form on the pitch not the dressing room.
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has politeboobie heard the same rumor that i
have, if he has then trescothick may return if vaughn goes.
i am reluctant to say what i heard on a public space like this.
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Sir Geoffrey is absolutely correct about performing well at county level before getting in the test side.
In my mind, this England Contract thing is detrimental to the long term strength of the side, because the players do not play enough cricket. Any game you play is down to practice AND time actually playing. Michael Vaughan's form is no surprise. You cannot play your almost first match of the summer in a test match after "net practice".
Money in the modern game is great, but we had better players in the 60's and 70's early 80's even, because the touring sides always played more county matches, and players got regular "real time action".
One day cricket and this 20-20 stuff just does not make good test players. I remember Sir Geoffrey getting dropped for scoring 246 runs too slowly!!!, now we do not have anyone who seems capable of consistently passing 100 (or 50 even).
20-20 is not new, it was played by our village sides around Scarborough in the twice a week evening league. Saturday games were 45 overs each, and this format did lead on to county potential if you were good enough.
Panic talk of ousting MV is falling into the trap we did back in the 80's when David Gower got the job, and Sir Ian Botham. Brilliant players they were, but not captains. The best captain in my lifetime was Mike Brearley, shrewd tactician, not always producing runs as an opener. He had better material to work with and got the best out of them.
It seemed at Headingley that MV got saddled with Pattinson. Does MV have any say in selection?? Captains of old did. It is no good talking about Robert Key etc etc, he had his chance and would not do any better now.
Let's hope that the bowlers come out with one mission in mind today, to bowl well enough to get SA out. There were some farciacl moments yesterday. Strauss for one. MV was NOT out , if the slips and wicket keeper do not appeal then he did not hit the ball, bad footwork or not. Stuart Braod should have been in the side his 60 or 70 would have at least got us nearer 300, which may be a good score on that slow pitch.
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Having been at the Test on the first day, I only want to add that to have 3 out of the first 6 batsmen (Vaughan, Pietersen, Collingwood) making 8 runs between them normally suggests that it is a bowler's wicket - which it was not. If one of these top batsmen makes almost no runs, it is acceptable - to have 2 is perhaps bad luck, but 3 shows lack of grit and application, totally out of place in a good Test team.
There is no excuse for substituting Broad with Collingwood - the young man has a far better batting average and can bowl (the excuse given of tiredness makes no sense since he was sent back to play more cricket!).
As for Vaughan, he is hopelessly out of touch and his much-vaunted captaincy can easily be handled by Strauss.
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I tend to agree with a lot of things that Aggers says, however I would like to pick up on the comment that things have unravelled after one defeat.
In truth this team have not been performing for almost 18 months.
They have flattered due to the fact that their opponents were worse than them.
New Zealand, who are not the strongest test team, gave them a hard time in some sessions, and the writing was on the wall during both series against them.
Whilst this current team is not good enough, the selectors must shoulder most of the blame by their refusal to make the necessary changes.
Dropping Harmison and Hoggard appeared to signal change but in truth there were ready made replacements for both of these.
The batting has been poor for too long, but it would seem that the occassional big score clouds the fact that on the whole th batsmen underperform.
The opposition must feel that in taking one wicket, the batting line up is exposed, and even if one partnership develops it is unlikely that there will be two or three in an innings.
It must be time to revamp the whole team, with no player certain of selection.
IMO, its simple, the batsmen are their to score runs, the bowlers to take wickets. If you can find a player that is capable of doing both, all the better
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There is a distinct problem with the county game which inturn is affecting the national side. There are too many foreign players, particularly with the Kolpak ruling. I seem to recall a recent game involving Leicestershire and (i forget the opposition) where out of 22 players, 10 or 11 of them were South African. There are too few opportunities for English talent to make its way in the proving ground of the county game. Similarly, by allowing these foreign "stars" to play in England we are allowing them to gain the experience of playing in different conditions. How many of England's best do we see playing top-level cricket in other countries? Not very many if any at all!
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WHAT IS THE BASIS FOR THIS TRESCOTHICK WILL RETURN IF VAUGHAN GOES RUMOUR????
Trescothick puleed out of an Ashes tour where Vaughan was injured....
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yes but vaughn was hanging around the dressing room.
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I have read this mornings comments with interest. It is clear that we need some changes, not only are players not performing (we are carrying 2 batsmen - Vaughn and Collingwood), bowling is lacking in imagination not to mention penetration but the biggest problem seems to be the mental state of the team. There seem to be suffering from a dangerous cocktail of arrogance and lack of confidence. They simply are not playing thinking cricket, not playing to the situation (something, to a man, the Sount Africans are masters at) and NOT performing.
Though whole sale changes are rarely successful, I propose a side, 9 of whom have played test cricket for England before and I believe will bring the experience, steel and desire England a very much lacking at the moment.
Given the crony-ism that has taken grip I am dropping:
Vaughan (he neither warrants his place as batsmen, or given my proposed replacement, as captain.
Strauss - This is a tricky call but we need consistency at the top of the order and he is not providing it.
Collingwood - He should never be there anyway.
Ambrose - He has been given a solid run in the side and in my view since NZ has failed to impress.
Anderson - Remains in squad but not XI - again too inconsistent.
Panesar - He needs to go away work on his variations and learn how to think. Warne and Muraly take wickets with their brain as much as talent. He has talent but seemingly little nouse.
So my side would be as follows:
Cook
Key - brings guts, leadership and class
Pieterson - As our best player he should be able to bat at 3
Bell
Shah - His treatment by the Test match selectors has been scandalous. He should be in the side.
Stuart Law (capt) - Class, runs, leadership and now an English passport. He would rule the team with the iron fist that is currently required and have everyones respect)
Flintoff
Foster - Best wicketkeeper in the country who during his short spell at test cricket showed character.
Saqulain Mushtaq - Another class performer with imagination, experience and now eligible for England. He has all the intelligence Panesar lacks as a bowler.
Sidebottom
Simon Jones - Time he came back, class performer and cutting edge we currently lack.
12th man - Broad.
Above all what this side brings is backbone and a stomach for the fight. Exactly what we need right now.
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and????
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Just wanted to question why people are saying Key is not good enough for Test crickert but Bopara and Shahb are? Yes, Key THIS season only averages 38 with the bat (in the FIRST division). Last year he averaged 58!! so you can not say his average this season shows he is not good enough as a batsman.
In the SECOND division (which is usually said to add almost 10 runs to a batters average), Bopara averaged 60 last year, and Shah 72 (this yearRavi averages 67 while shah ONLY 38) - yet people are calling for Shah ahead of Key who has NEVER played in the First division cricket, been tested by the best in the country and done well. As for Mustard being recalled for the keeper as he can bat? since when?!? Last year he averaged 26, this season 25 (and people have said it is a bad season for him when in fact it has been his average season), yet he is good enough to bat in the top 6 for England and Key isn't? thats MADNESS! He is not good enough with the bat, and not good enough with the gloves. If you want the best glovesman, its READ (NOT Foster, although he is close), best Bat it is Prior (although his career average is only 6 higher, and don't foprget Read's was scewed from his first 3 years being unable to even hold a bat).
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noquickfix -
joking with this team right?
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You'll have to look elsewhere on the web for those rumours, as comments on here will just be pulled (or won't even be published)....
Speaking from past experience.
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Micheal Vaughn very easily passed the buck on to the selector in the last match when they lost.
Vaughan likes test cricket but he cant play test cricket look at his performance in the last two test matches a duck followed by a golden duck, he is up for a hat trick of ducks in the second innings
Vaughan blamed the selectors for the loss well yes the selectors made a mistake, but the mistake was not picking Patinson but appointing him the captain and and letting him play.
Its time the selectors take a stock and get rid of him.he cannot be in the team just because he is the captain
Selectors in this match have made a mistake by dropping Stuart Broad and picking Paul collingwood someone who is consistantly performing with bat and ball does not make sense
One of the comentator on 5 Live is saying let him be the captain for the India series , well if you do that get ready for another thrashing and then it will be too late to find a new captain for the ashes series so get ready to be humiliated by the Aussies.
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I appear to be missing something.......
In the comments here and repeatedly in numerous 606 blogs people call for the dropping of Ian Bell:
Averaging 71 this series.
Career test average of 44.
The main complaint seems to be that he doesn't convert often enough.
I will gladly take a seemingly constant series of scores in the 40 - 70 range from one of our current middle order batsman - has anyone seen the averages of the others? Perhaps if they all managed something similar we could could look forward to a few more 400 + totals!
Hold on though Broads averaging over 80 in this series and he's been dropped .........
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philipg30 -
I am proposing a genuine side of proven test match cricketers, class and staying power. I believe that if you were to OBJECTIVELY select an English qualified side today, this should be it.
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Then how do you find yourself with Key instead of Strauss?
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As long as the dressing room remains a ?Buddies only? closed shop, England will never reach the heights of the Aussies. Let it be a test team, 50-over or a T20 - If England wants to win cricket matches, pick a team on merit. Based on current form, lots of players in the current England set up should not even be considered for an England XIII!
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"Don't send him back to us, for crying out loud!" -- Geoff Boycott on Michael Vaughan, TMS this morning.
'Nuff said?
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the noquickfixside
looks a little leftfield - but when you think about it you can help but realise it would beat the current bunch
couple of 'interesting call' but quite frankly i think we (team and fans) could do with that right now
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The point of dropping Collingwood was surely so we could play 5 bowlers, But as the selectors messed that up by playing a bowler so far off everyone's radar that Jodrell Bank couldn't even pick him up, It put in there minds that this was the wrong tactic.
It of course is the right tactic but just the wrong personel.
Team for this test should have been
Strauss
Cook
Vaughan
Pietersen
Bell
Flintoff
Foster (best wicketkeeper)
Broad
Anderson
Sidebottom
Panesar
Jones should come back in soon and you just play him instead of one of the seamers who isn't playing well.
Flintoff needs to bat at 6 as he needs the chance to bat with one of the top 5 so he can build and innings, instead of scratching around with the tale.
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Have a look at their first class recores they are remarkably similar, though Key averages +2 in 30 more matches of 1st div cricket.
I just don't believe scoring the odd 100, particularly against NZ is enough to justify a sustained presence in the side. I said dropping Strauss is a difficult decision, I believe he will come back, but Key deserves another chance. He is class, tough and a great leader.
Surely you don't believe my team is weaker than the current side...
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Well noquickfix, i think you have helped to prove my point! 2 of the 'best' 'english' players arent english at all regardless of their passport status! I agree that Stuart Law and Saqlain Mushtaq are true talented performers, however, what a sad state of affairs this is that we may need to look to over 30 year old foreign players to turn the england team around.
I go back to my original point that the county game has a lot to answer for, or rather the people in charge of it! As long as we keep letting average foreign players take the places of potential english talent we dont really have chance of dominating in the world game.
I fear that such problems run much deeper - the old boys network runs through the lifeblood of english cricket, i have experienced this for myself as a youngster, who if lucky would get to field for 50 overs and bat 11 on a saturday afternoon, regardless of ability.
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well, I can't help but feel Shah is like Ramps. Great player but not enough mental toughness of which Strauss has in Buckets. Key is there or thereabouts.
I agree with Jones but would have Hoggard over Sidebottom
and Panesar over Mushtaq. Panesar is a good bowler and has dismissed the worlds best.
Read is a better keeper than Foster.
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Continued .....
If we are to beat S Africa we have to score the runs, and bowl them out twice. The selection of Collingwood is amazing. he is not batting well and is only a 5th bowler of mediocre ability (by test standards). Why was Broad not picked instead of Collingwood - he is a far superior bowler and is scoring runs - what a bowling attack we would have had with Andersen, Sidebottom, Broad, Flintoff and Monty.
I am a fan of Collingwood, he is worth twenty runs in the field, but when he is clearly off form and we have a rising star in Broad the correct decision is obvious
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What is wrong with England as a sporting nation? Rugby, Football, Cricket take your pick. Poor management off the field, poor decsion making on the field, and poor selection decisions - the wrong players, in the wrong positions, playing the wrong system.
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I know its really hard for us not be critisizin Michael Vaughn or Paul Colln'wood , but i think we need to get to the root cause of this. What are the selectors doing Selecting Michael Vaughn or Colly or Ambrose? , i mean come on... If these are the guys that are gonna be picked for tests... It doesnt seem that the england selectors have faith in their county system , hence they are not picking inform county players.
I mean its at times like this when i think you need to pick some players like Mark Ramprakash or some good ol' form guys. Just to steady the ship. I can bear a team like Zimbabwe capitulating like this , but not a Rich Fort Noxy ECB team.
Are selectors actually getting paid for these selections ?, i hope they are doing it for free. Because "me mum" could provide a better line up than the one that got skittled out against SA.
A final word to the English press , dont show public 'Grace saving' Flintoff. He is injury prone , that is the bottom line. Your public pays the Board o' Selectors- Fire them first , then say your 'Grace'
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The reason for the large support of Rob Key is that although his Test average is only 31 he has consistantly performed for Kent with an average of 42.
This goes for Shah as well.
These are higher batting averages than Vaughan and Strauss in County Cricket!!
Secondly. Key played for England a long time ago now!! Do you not think he might have improved as a batsmen and a cricketer in the last 4/5 years?
I personally think he's taylor made to take over from Vaughan in the near future. It wouldn't hurt to take him to India and see how he goes!
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prajwas: "Rich Fort Noxy ECB team"
hahaha what a great description. Reckon the ECB should get a few shirts made up with that motto, sure KP for one would wear one...
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#254: loathesome comment. Shah just blasted 75 off 35 balls in the 2020 final and now he 'lacks mental toughness'. I don't think so. Look at the current england batting line-up and learn what 'lacking mental toughness' REALLY is.
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Couldn't agree more with royone 12.28.
The people in charge of running sport in the UK are an embarassment.
FA : Appointment of Steve Maclaren (Lets pick someone who does exactly the same as the last manager only worse)
UKA : Appointment of Dave Collins (Ricki Yates debacle, Dave Collins still won't admit he's wrong and Ricki still wont be in the Olympics)
ECB : Appointment of Peter Moores and the rest of the selection committee ( Set out a mandate on the development of English cricket then pick an Aussie who goes against everything they set out to do)
Shambles
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Surely a guage of the strength of a side is the strength of the 'second' team. Oz had two teams that could beat us for years and their first team would win if played against the seconds. How about England 2's:
Denly
Carberry
Key (c)
Shah
Bopara
Prior
Broad
Rashid
Tremlett/Mahmood
Harmison
Jones
Not sure either would beat SA, but I know which one my money is on between two Eng sides.
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The key to fixing this side lies in the replacement of a few players. Here are my suggestions:
Strauss (Capt)
Cook
Bell
Pietersen
Shah
Prior/Foster
Flintoff
Broad
Jones
Sidebottom/Harmison
Panesar
Firstly, the top six needs to be cemented. Whilst I rate Key, let's give Shah his chance. Strauss has a good captains brain, and his top form will return. Ambrose simply isn't test quality. Prior or Foster are the obvious choices. Anderson CAN be a very good bowler, conditions permitting. But we are lacking PACE. Bring back Jones, who in partnership with Fred and possibly Harmison, will give us the aggressive edge we need in attack. Broad, whilst not a mind-blowing wicket taker, is simply too steady with bat and ball to dismiss so easily. Give him time. Panesar is simply best spinner in the country at the moment. It's too early for Rashid.
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Its all very well sacking players from the current team/squad but there isn't much of a choice, is there? Perhaps the 'Kolpak invasion' has contributed to this state of affairs!
Not all is lost, however, young English players may soon get their chance when the French change the rules to prevent 150 South African rugby players distorting their game!
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Sorry Aggers, but your interview with Vaughan on this website today made me cringe. You shouldn't take that kind of bullying backchat from Vaughan - he obviously thinks he's some kind of untouchable based on winning the Ashes in but he's been rubbish with the bat for some time now. Bringing up your Test record is totally irrelevant - you're a journalist now (or at least you're supposed to be) so your job is to ask him some tough questions and ignore his pathetic attempts to sidetrack!
Personally I think Vaughan's eyes or his reactions have gone i.e he's past it. Unless he can prove he is still a world-class batsman back at Yorkshire, his Test career should be over. And the next time you see him, remind him that playing for England is a privilege, not a right...
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agree with Scotch Egg
when you're the captain of the england cricket team, you should be above the school yard behaviour he displayed.
Suggests to me that Vaughn's has a wee bit of a god complex and does not believe he has the right to be questionned. I worry that his influence in the dressing room is no longer as positive as it has been. Ignoring the rights and wrongs of the Pattison selection, he should not have publicly gone against the selectors and started saying that it caused concerns in the dressing room.
Also his famed mental toughness is crumbling as his batting goes down hill. Backs up the argument that you should pick your side then your captain, not the other way around
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In reply to 265, I totally agree. Vaughan has gone down in my estimation after viewing that. He has never been too forward in interviews before and always tries and say the right things. But Aggers question was fair, and a personal jib back at aggers wasnt neccersary.
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The time has come for the selectors to grow a pair and look at the captaincy issue.
Vaughan's average has been declining steadily, averaging under 30 over the past year. That's simply not acceptable for a #3 in a team that has pretensions to challenging the best in the world.
Vaughan's consistent failures with the bat also have the knock on effect that KP is reguarly coming to the crease too early. He's one of the most destructive batsmen in the world - England would get so much more out of him if he wasn't always coming in early facing a fired up bowling attack while the balls still relatively new. The top three aren't providing the middle order with much protection.
Collingwood has to go too. I actually like him, but he's woefully out of touch. England are effectively playing with four batsmen at the moment.
Add to that a less than convincing wicketkeeper/batsman in Ambrose, and England are horribly short of runs.
The fact we've only passed 400 once in 15 innings (includes back to back series against a poor New Zealand side) says absolutely everything.
The Pattinson selection storm was a smokescreen to hide the batting problems. Our bowlers are, by and large, OK. They just don't get any help from the batsmen at the moment (how they must despair when they're bowling straight after tea on day one when we chose to bat first). It's no wonder they look tired and jaded.
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I Have been following cricket closely since living in australia in the 80s.Our game is a shambles,attrociously mismanaged and run on the basis of nepotism from junior level right to the very top.Vaughn is only captain because he pleases the administrators,and through no input of his own we managed a once in a generation beating of the aussies.
The central contracts ensure the gravy train keeps rolling for awful players who will never willingly go back to the counties because the train will leave the station without them.
Blind freddie(not flintoff) can see that jones and harmison should have been brought back for this test-one which we have to win.
The Aussie mentality would have been-if the top order batters cant hold up their end of the game we will find some that will- end of story.That would concentrate the mind a bit. Instead we fiddle around trying to get some runs out of the middle order,but in doing so lose any hope of bowling a side out twice-all to protect the worst batting captain i can ever remember.what do you think
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we dont need to totally remake this team.dont forget the success it has had in the last 18months
we need to look after talents such as braod and adil rashid, and not play them and then drop them if they go through a bad patch.
our current team should look like this
cook
strauss
key *
shah
pietersen
bell
prior/mustard
flintoff
broad
sidebottom
jones
with the anticipation that sidebottom, jones and possibly flintoff not having that many years left.
although county cricket is a totally different level to international test matches, we shiould at least take into account who is scoring runs/taking wickets in county cricket.
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England again struggling to take wickets and score runs, i wonder if the axe is going to be as quick to fall on the members of the side who are not contributing?
Collingwood - SHould never have been picked after the tour of New Zealand- should be rplaced by Bopara
Sidebottom - again seem to be lacking real penatration to top class batsmen and never seems to utilise the early swing - Hoggard would be a much better choice. He had one bad test match in 5 years and got dropped!
Anderson - on his day can be totally devastating, but has too many of days and sessions - Real pace and control could be supplied by Harmison or Jones
Vaughn - Really Struggling, think he is a great captain who has total respect of his troop s but england cannot afford to carry a batsman who is only good for 1 test match out of 10! - Strauss as captain Vaughn replaced by Shah.
Ambrose - grits it out but dosent seem to be able to go on and get the 60 to 70 runs from a couple of good starts. - Maybe Prior should get another go as a better batsman and hopefully improved wicketkeeper. Could also be used as 6th batsman to allow 5 man attack.
Therfore my test team:
Strauss
Cook
Shah
KP
Bell
Prior
Flintoff
Broad
Hoggard
Harmison
Panesar
ps. Broad and Harmison seem to be taking wickets!
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So the last two England wickets fell to Run Outs.
If England suffers a Run Out off the first ball, does that qualify as a hat trick?
Any bookies out there have odds on it happening?
Given Englands ineptitude I would like to lay some money?
Seriously, has the Mr. "Run Out" ever taken a hat trick in test cricket?
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Lets not forget the contributions made by some of the aforementioned scapegoats:
Ambrose - not an easy job keeping wicket for England, ever sinve the great Godfrey EVANS (Godfrey) donned the gantlets.
Collingwood - going through a poor patch but lets not forget he is the finest fielder sine Derek RANDELL. Usually worth 20 runs per match before batting.
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Quite simply as soon as we did not select harmison the best prospect was a draw.
This attack will not take 20 wickets.
So I am praying for rain.
The obvious move was the recall of prior to bat 6 so allow a 5th bowler.
Ths addition bowler takse the strain off of Flintoff who needs to be managed well.
What are these selectors paid?
Does anyone know?
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noquickfix
Ahh old Gedfrey EVANS where did he end up?
Really like the idea of your new England regime noquickfix, however you have one massive oversight! Surely Broad should be back in the line-up - a class bat and nifty with the ball... We should be backing our youngsters!
Your comment on Mushi sounds like one of a Frenchman who has slightly lost touch of the modern game. He is surely over the hill?
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When we lose this test on Saturday perhaps we could have a clear out and try something different.
Cook
Key (Capt)
Shah or Denly (don't care which as long as Vaughan is gone)
Peitersen
Bell
Flintoff
Foster
Broad
Ali
Anderson
Panesar
so there......
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I loved the comments of the "all-knowledgeable" Pat Murphy on Radio 5 before this Test.
His rationale for selecting Collingwood over Broad was that Collingwood, being an all-rounder, would be able to provide the extra 10 overs of swing on a ground that was suitable for it, whereas Broad who is not a swing bowler could not.
Hmm, great theory Pat!
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Re- The possible Hat-trick of run outs when England start their 2nd innings.
Best way to avoid this embarrasment is surely to send M.P Vaughan in to open next innings, no chance of him hitting the ball therefore eliminating the chance of a run out occuring.....problem solved!
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On the subject of selection I must say that I?m beginning to believe that the Australians are right when they call us losers by nature. It seems as though when someone comes along who is clearly a solid player the selectors look for any reason to get rid of them or at least regard them with a degree of suspicion.
Examples of this attitude?
Monty - kept out by the king of Spain during the ashes.
Paul Nixon - easily the stand out player of the world cup for me and was declared to old.
Hoggy - one bad match and you?re out sunshine, I honestly don?t know how someone so consistently good was able to stay in this side for so long.
Ian Bell - seems as though his place is under constant threat even though statistically he is one of England?s finest. If he continues to play well he will definitely get sacked.
Mustard - must get more runs or he?s out, gets 84 and is sent off in favor of Ambrose. The reason in this case was simply consistency in selection, nothing to do with ability or performance.
Broad ? top scored and showed great character as the specialist batsmen fell apart. Your outta here buddy!
There have been others over the years that I have watched cricket but I?m doing this from recent memory so that will do for now.
Then there are the few dark ones who appear to be untouchable no matter how embarrassingly bad they become:
Harmison ? Had one good year and lived off it for the rest of his international carrear.
Vaughn ? Before he was captain he was the best batsman in the world. How long ago was that now?
Ambrose ? He?s not quite there yet but I fear he may also be a daywalker based on the fact that he was rewarded for his test mediocrity when he was given the odi job. Only time will tell.
Here?s the answer in my view, get Australians to do the team selection as it seems to be the main problem. Even when we get to the ashes your average Australian is so competitive they wont think twice about selecting the right group of English players to beat their own team.
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Open batting and bowling with Fred and James Anderson and the Ashes is ours
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Maybe you're right CaptainBalrog. It was as long ago as May 1 that Langer, after facing him a few days earlier, said "Flintoff is the best fast bowler playing international cricket" and "absolutely ready to be picked for the first Test against New Zealand". Noone was listening.
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#281: I forgot to attach the link --http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/cricket/7377061.stm
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One of the England side has stepped up to be counted, no need for a name , lets hope the rest of them are inspired enough to respond in a way that we know that they are capable.
If they dont then I am afraid the axe has to fall on at least three current England players, we all know who they are....?
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Can you believe that shot from Cook??? What is going on between these batsmen's ears???
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Has anyone noticed that the BBC website in their live coverage link of the India Sri Lanka test match has the scorecard of a one day international from 12th February after 29 overs?
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England are playing well just a better side aginst them and 281 runs to get is not easy on an aging wicket.
Win or lose they have tried hard just been outplayed, selecting other players will not answer their woes. Just live with the fact that England are not the best sportsmen/women in the world :).
Bring on the olympics!
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England back to their pathetic best. Uaughan has to go, he is a poor batsman and he isn't even a brilliant captain. Panesaar has to stop this stupid appealing at almost every ball, grow up son and act your age. Pieterson throws his wicket away again, drop him for a season until he learns patience. Foster in for Ambrose, and with Vaughan gone, trescothick can come back.
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The biggest mistake the England Selectors have ever made. Pieterson has no experience as captain of any team let alone a Test side. They will live to regret it, pieterson is a selfish, vain individual who only cares about himself. He lacks credibility and throws away his wicket too often. Big mistake.
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