What next for England after dismal loss?
Michael Vaughan described this performance (I won't call it an effort) as unacceptable, but he was being polite. Actually, to slip to 77 for 9 was inept, and this was illustrated by the fact that Monty Panesar, the number 11, was then able to hang around quite comfortably for three quarters of an hour before defeat was sealed.
There were no excuses from Vaughan because there aren’t any to give. He disagreed with my view that England lacked energy throughout the game – but I will stick to my opinion. Something was lacking throughout, and I firmly believe that England took an early view that this was a slow, flat pitch – ‘a road’ – and once New Zealand’s batsmen made a good start, that the match would be a draw and they could move on to Wellington.
Vaughan did pay tribute to New Zealand’s tenacity – they kept coming at England throughout the game with bat and ball which only went to show what could be achieved with a more positive and bullish approach.
The question is what to do now? Steve Harmison’s position will certainly be reviewed not simply because he bowled badly, but in preferring other options, it seems that Vaughan does not trust him. Losing the new ball should have riled even the most gentle of giants, but Harmison does not appear to be driven in the way that other fast bowlers are.
As with all selectorial decisions, Harmison must be replaced only by a better option, and Stuart Broad and James Anderson will both come into consideration. Broad is only 21 and is very promising. He is tall, has reasonable pace – but is not fast – and does not yet do much with the ball so might be exposed on a flat, slow pitch. He would bring enthusiasm, better fielding and batting.
Anderson has been playing for Auckland without much success. He is very much of the same category as Matthew Hoggard and Ryan Sidebottom – if a little quicker – and so depends on swing. For that reason, if there is to be a change, I would opt for Broad.
Daniel Vettori had a brilliant game, and gave Panesar a beautiful example of what he must strive to become. Vettori’s variation can be up to as much as 15 miles per hour and no consecutive balls are the same.
Panesar had a decent game here, but has still yet to discover the confidence to add flight and guile to his repertoire.
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Surely, all we had to do was block, and play out the day for a draw(which would have been an anti-climax, after Sidebottom's hat-trick day, but better than a humiliating defeat) yet, too many of our batsmen were out playing an attacking shot.
Why ?
How can Monty hang around for over 40 minutes, and other, more able batsmen can't ?
The skipper ~ does he inspire and lead by example enough ?
And Harmison ~ I'd pack my bags if I were you.
Such a disappointment.
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After Day 2, one report from NZ stated 'England aren't fooling anyone'.
This is truer now than it was then. This was dismal cricket.
In Adelaide in 06, England were bowled out by the best attack in Tests - Warne, McGrath, Lee and Clark. Here they were bowled out be a good, honest, ordinary attack (Vettori aside, but he didn't get the wickets today).
This was PATHETIC.
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Good one Jon. Being optimistic is very good but I never understand how from talking about victory we end up losing it just in a matter of a session. Invariably we tend to expect a lot from Vaughan & co. By the way we put Peterson up in top with Ponting, Sachin & co. but never accept that he is still a long way.
A bad summer (loss to India) , loss in Sri Lanka, miserable ashes shows that we have yet to learn to be realistic in our expectation from Team England.
Looking forward to England winning the next one!!
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I don't understand why England collapsed like that. Watching and rewatching the dismissals, none of the deliveries seemed to move much, keep low, be particularly unlucky or excellent bits of bowling or fielding. Simply very poor batting. Really really poor. Playing down the wrong line, being caught in the crease, fishing outside off stump. Just a load of utter rubbish. I remember scorecards a bit like that in the 90s, but that was when Marshall and Ambrose were bowling, not Mills and Martin. It's truly pathetic and the worst I've ever seen England bat.
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Time for Vaughan to leave as captain and concentrate on his batting!
He was a good captain at first but he is starting to look out of sort's and the team batting and bowling wise is so out of form.
When will England start dropping players out of form, i.e. harmy, pieterson, bell
Simply not good enough
Good Article again aggers
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When a team so clearly underperforms the reasons are most likely that the wrong team is being selected, that there has been a loss of focus on basic skills, and that there are mental problems to do with lack of confidence. England demonstrate all three of these problems in abundance. So in answer to "What next for England?"
1. Sack Peter Moores at the end of the tour. A coach needs to demonstrate that his team his improving. In both attitude and even the most elementary of skills the team is degenerating. We need a proper coach, not someone who got the job because he was 'next cab off the rank'.
2. Select a team based on who is actually in form. Harmison should not be selected again until he clearly demonstrates at county level that he deserves to be selected. For the moment, I agree with Jonathan, Broad would be the best choice, but I'm not really convinced he's a long term option because he seems very predictable, and therefore easy to counteract. Strauss should not have been selected for this tour, but we'll have to stick with him now for the next two tests in the absence of any credible batting alternatives.
3. Change the captaincy. Vaughan has been very good, but his leadership has run its course. We need to select a captain who's going to shake up and toughen up the team, as Nasser Hussain did. To this end, Kevin Pietersen would be worth a try (remember that Hussain was considered an aloof and temperamental loner before he got the gig). It might actually help his batting and stop his tendency to fade out of the game in the field.
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With the honourable exceptions of (definitely) Sidebottom, (probably) Panesar and (possibly) Bell and Cook, the whole team played uselessly four days.
As an ardent England supporter it pains me to say it, but this is no longer a blip, and what we're in fact seeing is the cyclical downturn of England's fortunes.... We all thought that with Vaughan back and Moores' new regime in, the post 2005 slide would be halted, but it seems to be going on unabated.
Broad in for Harmison and Strauss out in favour of someone (not convinced by Shah yet), but beyond that I'm not sure where we go from here.
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Well, this must be the low point! How much worse must this team perform to convince themselves that relying on the reflected glory of the 2005 Ashes triumph is a pathetically complacent position? Forget the world rankings; they bear no relation to the current quality of England's performances. Since 2005, England's attitude against even moderate opposition belies a falsely optimistic opinion of their own abilities and a drastic inability to show respect for the professionalism of their opponents. We cannot just turn up and win!
They need to recapture the focus on doing basic things correctly; batting with a positive attitude, bowling as a unit and applying concerted pressure on the opposition. It just shows how much we miss players with the quality of Simon Jones; we do not have the strength in depth of sides like Australia and we don't have the kind of players that can take a test match and wrest control of it single handedly (despite KPs assessment of himself).
The only positive feature to come out of this Test was (apart from the effort of Ryan Sidebottom) that the fielding at least appears to be solid. I just hope that NZs excellent team effort demonstrates to Moores et al. that in order to succeed you need everyone to play their own part in the team and not as a bunch of prima donna egos. Oh, and while you're at it, ban all player interviews; they are all sending out the wrong messages, giving the opposition hope and cementing the false-headed, cliche-ridden platitudes that pass for much of England's 'thinking' these days.
I refuse to write us off though; we are a reasonable side at times and we have it in us to bounce back. It just annoys me that the management cannot see that the team is damaged psychologically and requires some strong leadership to take them out of the comfort zone that central contracts and lack of strength in depth have entrenched in the mindset. Australians don't assume they have a natural place in a side unless their performances justify it; and then they know that a slip up will not be tolerated. Time for this unit to mature a bit and stop acting like teenagers who believe the world owes them a living.
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This was embarrassing.
New Zealand are, at best, a reasonable county side, but they worked hard and played with passion and a plan.
England seem to be wrapped in cotton wool now between games/ series. They were not match fit especially the players not in the one day team.
They do not play enough and I cannot believe Micheal Vaughan suggesting that they will 'take a couple of days off now and train hard for one day' before the next test.
There is no replacement for hard work.
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England seem to make a habit of being awful at the start of a series, and finally coming to life when it's too late, and then talking about the "positives" they have taken with them.
I am fed up with hearing about "positives" whatever they are. I want to hear about success.
Moores and Vaughan seem to be completely unable to motivate this team, and surely will not select Harmison again as he is finished. Broad is there, young and keen. He is wasted on the benches whilst Harmison continously fails to perform.
Unfortunately the Test Team are suffering from the English attitude which generates losers.
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Aggers,
Commenting on Panesars failings at every opportunity is becoming boring and verging on an obsession. we know he is not perfect and needs to learn but you never seem to appriciate that he is the first spinner since Derek Underwood who consistantly takes wickets for England on a regular basis.3 for 50 in second innings is not bad.Cook, Edmunds,Embury, Tufnell rarely threatened apart from the odd occasion ot the windies loosing their heads. Yes he needs to learn but why not show a bit of support and confidence in him so he can develop.
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England handed the psychological initiative to NZ by the way they batted in the first innings - Australia always play to win irrespective of the apparent difficulty of the situation - England on the other hand especially under Vaughan are quick to give up on winning and play not to lose which too often results in a loss.
More concerning is the loss of energy throughout the team. In my opinion the Ashes win has given us a false view of Englands' capability and in particular Vaughan's captaincy of which this match seems to be far more representative - lacking imagination, energy or capability to motivate/inspire the potential match winners.
Congratulations to New Zealand and Daniel Vittori who showed what can be done with limited resources through good leadership which taps into the desire we all have to succeed. The English have shown they lack the courage of the Kiwis and the emotional toughness necessary for success.
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Don't tell me, don't tell me. We can take some positives out of this.
That Bell could survive more balls than the other top nine in the batting order put together says as much about their dismal display than his.
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Obviously the inquiry into the last Ashes debacle was a waste of time from which no-one learnt anything.
We have to get our priorities right, and the most important thing now is to immediately set up a new enquiry to find out what went wrong with the last enquiry.
We have to be confident that the next time we get obliterated on the field, there'll be a proper, wide-ranging, enquiry afterwards.
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same old saga, a middle order batting collapse.how many times have we seen this happen.
he may not be the best keeper but he can bat when needed in situations like this, and thats matt prior.
twice in sri lanka on very difficult wickets and against a very strong test side, not a medium strength
new zealand.england have always played the best keeper / batsman
and matt is still the best.
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I think English line up should look something like this, for the next match :
Cook
Vaughan (C)
Bell
Collingwood
Peiterson
Shah
Ambrose (wkt)
Hoggard
Sidebottom
Board
Panesar
Harmison (12th man - let him run with drinks onto the field !!)
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hello playmates,
oooooooooops lost again well never mind lets not do anything about it just carry on as nothing happened...................... oh yes i reckon were well on our way now to putting together a team to regain the ashes
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bring back Prior
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agree the aussie attack at adelaide was the best in the world but remember we had just caned them for 550 declared. there is a similarity to this defeat - england's approach to batting and scoring at 1-2 runs an over. the sri lanka captain was right, england are negative and vaughan must take a lot of the responsibility.
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how can a team of international players have such little desire to battle against the odds. they had the chance to be part of a fantastic comeback victory but look instead for inspiration from anybody else rather than themselves. the main men with the ball with 500 wickets between them wanted sidebottom and panesar to do it all, and if the skipper or kp fail with the bat the struggle begins. a few home truths need to be told to these comfortable also rans and get rid once and for all of hamless harmison, for a player to be 30 years of age with years of top level experience behind him to continually be in need of reassurance and technical help with his action is totally ametuerish and selfish.
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2 runs an over, about says it all vis-a-vis conviction, mindset etc.. I'd say let them get spanked in the next two tests, but that won't set of any alarm bells, so why put us through the pain..
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There is clearly an institutional failure in the England set-up at the moment which will not be resolved by minor tweaks such as dropping Harmison for Broad. Yes, Harmison was poor, no, he probably isn't in a fit state of mind to be selected, but his failure wasn't the difference between victory and defeat.
That was the utter capitulation of the top order yesterday. Vaughan said before the game that Strauss was recalled to bring some 'maturity' to the dressing room. There wasn't much of that on show on the part of any of the top six here. None of the six want for ability, so the failure is likely to have been mental.
My view is that Shah ought to have been given a chance in Sri Lanka and ought to have been preferred to Strauss for the first test here, but, as I said, minor shuffling will not address the deeper-rooted problems England have now.
Moores and Vaughan have talked about getting England out of their 'comfort zone', but the people with chief responsibility for getting England *into* that comfort zone are Moores and Vaughan, with their platitudinous rhetoric and apparent desire to rewind the clock back to the 2005 Ashes. I also have a strong suspicion that certain players are being selected and retained not on the basis of their ability, but on how congenial the captain or coach find their personality. Yes, it is important that the XI get on as people and function as a unit but the core of the England side appears at the moment to be operating as a narrow-minded clique, and one which is depressingly unresponsive to external criticism and incapable of performing under pressure.
The most distinguished performances at Hamilton - Sidebottom, Panesar, Cook (in the field) - came from players who have come in since 2005 and understand the privilege conveyed by an England cap and the expectations associated with it. All three are clearly working hard all the time to improve themselves and to excel on the big stage. By contrast, many of the Ashes 2005 men have retreated into contented mediocrity, sure of their places and sure that they fit in with the 'lads in the dressing room' who will no doubt be 'gutted' but are 'determined to put things right', etc etc.
There need to be changes at the top, in attitude if not in personnel, otherwise we might as well give up on the Ashes right now.
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Apart from the boxing, eh, Huw!
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Interesting article there Aggers.
I feel when I watch the England team these days, there is a certain yet unbelievable sense of arrogance rifled through the whole team. I feel England need to realise they are NOT world beaters and need to remove this sense of arrogance ( trying to emulate the Aussies )....
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why hasnt he mentioned the pathetic batting....vettori even managed to outdo the england team on that!
surely there is a place for Owais Shah in the team
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If New Zealand is at best a good County side then what does that make England? Good enough to beat Scotland I hope ... pity about the rugby guys! :-)
Face facts guys ... the last time you received a drubbing from NZ in Eng (1999) I heard the same excuses wheeled out ... face it your team is useless!!
Ciao and love always to the Mother Country!
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compared to the golden period 2004-5 england are a poorer side: cook is good but unable to dominate bowlers like trescothick; vaughan makes more errors and scores less heavily than he did; straus and (since his recent injury) hoggard are significantly poorer; as for harmison..Flemming said that in the series in England the difference between the sides had been harmison...it seems unimaginable now; flintoff is permanently injured or when plays seems to have lost the ability to reverse swing or compose an innings; monty takes more wickets but scores less runs than giles; whilst sidebottom has done well neither he nor the other seamers have the aggression or skill of simon jones. Collingwood and Bell have marginally improved since 2005 but do not frighten International bowlers and even Pieterson seems less intimidating. In addition there has been the disturbance of england being the only international side to go years without having a settled keeper. This match was a one off in terms of good catching but our outfielders are unathletic and less competent compared to 2004-5. As a professional psychologist my opinion is that England are losing because of competence not confidence.
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I cannot believe Michael Nee is suggesting Bell should be dropped. He is probably the best batsman England have and keeps on improving. England collapse but Bell remains not out and gets a half century and Mr Nee wants him to be dropped. On this basis I suppose we should be thinking of dropping Sidebottom! England need to bring in some new players and tell them they are in the team for say at least three tests come what may. I remember Dennis Amiss starting his test career off badly. He was told he had a couple of tests at least to make an impression and the rest was history. He became a very good test batsman. Cook just about deserves to stay in because of the catches he took. Sidebottom and Panesar should stay as should Ambrose despite his duck in the second innings. I would keep Hoggard in because he always gives 100% but as to the rest I would bother with any of them. This might be a little hard on Collingwood. He is a fighter but I am not sure whether he is a genuine Test player. The hard part is trying to find alternative players. Broad,Shah and other names which crop up do not fill me with any confidence.
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That was really tought to watch. Aggers, what in the last 12 months has convinced you that an England win was second to a draw, over and above a NZ win?
NZ were worthy winners, for no other reason than they earnt their wickets through pressure bowling.
It's sad to say this but England have absolutely no chance for the Ashes next year. 2005 was the culmination a prolonged period of good English cricket.
I think a lot of this is down to man-management. I watched the interview with Harmison and was frankly shocked. Mentally this guy has gone and should not be playing 1st class cricket for England. What I think has been overlooked is the impact such a personality can have on the rest of the side. The best sides in the world perform because they believe in the men around them. The second negativity creeps into a side it becomes endemic. Serious questions need to start being asked of Peter Moores and Michael Vaughan and the management of the England team.
Steve Harmison is on £250,000 a year and the interview he gave was nothing short of disgraceful. There are players around the world who would kill to be in the position he is in. He needs a reality check and should think about what playing for England really means to him. Not once did that guy give any indication he was thinking about the team or more importantly the words that his captain will have said to him at the beginning of this game.
A team has to believe in it's leader and the words that he says - can that really be said any more of Michael Vaughan and England?
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compared to the golden period 2004-5 england are a poorer side: cook is good but unable to dominate bowlers like trescothick; vaughan makes more errors and scores less heavily than he did; straus and (since his recent injury) hoggard are significantly poorer; as for harmison..Flemming said that in the series in England the difference between the sides had been harmison...it seems unimaginable now; flintoff is permanently injured or when plays seems to have lost the ability to reverse swing or compose an innings; monty takes more wickets but scores less runs than giles; whilst sidebottom has done well neither he nor the other seamers have the aggression or skill of simon jones. Collingwood and Bell have marginally improved since 2005 but do not frighten International bowlers and even Pieterson seems less intimidating. In addition there has been the disturbance of england being the only international side to go years without having a settled keeper. This match was a one off in terms of good catching but our outfielders are unathletic and less competent compared to 2004-5. As a professional psychologist my opinion is that England are losing because of competence not confidence.
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An absolutely unforgivable 'performance'. When will they ever learn - it's no good turning up a week or two before the first test, not enough time to get into form - especially Harmless; who needs a lot of bowling to get into form. 4 years ago England started the run which culminated in the Ashes - wins against WIndies, whitewashing NZ, an away win in SAfrica. At the moment they are miles away from that type of form.
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Just listened to Moores being interviewed on 5Live and he's just unbelievable - prattling on about taking "positives" from the game, and sounding confident that they can win the next 2.
This seems to me to show that the there is a worrying arrogance at the top - that we are better than the oppo, and that we "deserve" to win. Vaughan's outpourings over the last 9 months have sounded similar.
Wakey wakey!! We are playing rubbish, haven't beaten a decent side for ages now, and Moores and Vaughan appear totally incapable of motivating the team.
Sack Moores, Flowers (what has he contructed to our batting?!), sign up John Buchanan as coach, and sack Vaughan and make Colly Captain - at least he looks like he is interested in the job.
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Typical England. I get up in the morning and this greets me. Shameful I say.
The thing I dont like however is this theory people have and maybe the england players too, that NZ are a weak team or as one person put it a glorified county team. We should pay the opposition more respect, and they quite rightly deserved their win.
As for England, I think they need to simply concentrate on basics rather than trying to "intimidate" teams with their faux aggression.
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I find that the whole England team are steadily heading down the same road as our footballers - especially since the glory of our Ashes victory. The motivation for progress, improvement and glory on the world stage is secondary.
What was it that 'KP' said last week, in relation to the breakaway Indian league?
"It's not as if I need the money".
Speaks volumes about the remaining Ashes 'heroes' and perhaps why, as many journalists have noticed that certain players didn't prepare right and have shown a new level of lethargy in their performances. Especially in this match against a spirited New Zealand side which despite their belief and will to win, we should be beating comfortably.
I remember reading that Monty Panesar had signed a mutli-million pound book deal several months ago. When the rewards are that big for not acheiving particularly much in his short career, where is the incentive to become as good as a Daniel Vettori? There is none.
England's performances since 2005 have been systematic of 'professional' English sport of recent times.
Mediocrity is excellence.
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Why cannot I send Aggers' comments on to someone else ? This used to be possible so I hope you will reinstate
Please: what does URL stand for ?
Peter Relton.
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I don't know what game Ian smith was watching. I didn't see any attacking shots by the England batsmen that got them out. The only attacking shots played were by Bell toward the end of the innings and showed how it could have been done.
England were pathetic.
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I fail to understand since the Ashes 2005, Eng has produced only one new player - Sidebottom. This shows how poor is their bench strength. Also Eng is always living in the past. Flintoff,Simon Jones, Marcus are gone. Its high time that they forget the players that had represented Eng and look forward to replace them with quality players.
Look at other countries - India / Aus - they are always trying to get new players to replace the old. A captain has to trust the players.
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Matt (message 6) - A lot of people have jumped on the sack Peter Moores bandwagon. You all seem to regard cricket coaches as expendable, like football managers. Well, what do failing football clubs get who keep sacking their managers - more failure! I don't believe that cricket coaches tell batsmen to go out and waft unnecessarily outside off stump or shoulder arms to balls cutting back from outside off stump, or bowlers to bowl all over the shop at eight or nine miles per hour below their normal pace. The people you should be blaming are the players - and if you want a reason, take a look at today's Sunday Times newspaper, see http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/cricket/article3511780.ece.
Mike (message 11) - I'm not here to defend Aggers or to try and interpret the points you make. However, there appear to be a lot of people who take objection to any comment he makes about Monty which does not amount to unqualified praise. You ask Aggers to show a bit for support for Monty, but surely advising him constructively to watch how Vettori does it is supporting him...if he can add variations of pace to his armoury, he'll be an even better bowler than he is now.
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It is time the England set - up realistically assess themselves. The players are accused of under performing, perhaps certain players are unable to perform to a higher standard? Therefore a clear out of players is due. But who do you bring in? The selectors do not appear to have a long term policy and often seem unsure to give young players aa chance to prove themselves or indeed do not have faith in certain players. Both Anderson and Harmison are not good enough to play at the highest level, they both lack the consistency needed. Anderson has bowled awfully recently but people say he is unfortunate but he is bowling is
very poor. There appears to be a lack of enthusiasim within the England team and a reluctance to play for five days. Peter Moores is now the master of the banal, his statements are pathetic and if that is the way he is dealing with the England team the decline may continue. England according to the ECB are a young team still learning but this has been a consisitent excuse delivered for the last three years. Moores also thinks that once Flintoff is back England will be a force. Lets be honest, aside from 2005 Flintoff was not regarded as the best all rounder in the game. In reality Flintoff will not play for England test side again as his ankle will not stand the rigour of five days so where is the planning as Austrailia await in 2009
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england have been embarrassing since peter moores took over as coach.they are a disgrace peter moores must go. duncan fletcher did a better job. who ever appointed moores should resign also. the players have no bottle they should be ashamed of them selves but i suppose they still get there pay packet hardly deserved.i suggest the england players keep there mouths shut and play cricket.
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Great article Aggers,
Could you imagine what would have happened if Shane Bond, Scott Styris Lou Vincent, and Hamish Marshall played?
These players are better than Jamie How, Matthew Bell, Chris Martin and Matthew Sinclair included in the current squad.
England could not beat a weakened New Zealand team and is a cause for concern. If anything this game proved that enthusiasm, discipline, a game plan (that is stuck to) and honesty of effort (mixed in with three class players i.e. Vettori, Fleming and Taylor)can win you a game of cricket. And this is something the English team (at this moment in time) does not possess.
Unfortunately, Harmison does not appear to have the character to compete at a test match standard and should make way for Broad. Hoggard should also be placed on notice. Other than that an increased energy level from all players is required. If the energy levels are matched than England's superior class will shine through.
Congratluations to Ian Bell and Ryan Sidebottom who I believe enhanced their reputations in this test match. I understand Ian Bell comes under a lot of criticism in England for his performances but I believe him to be a class player and even a future vice-captain candidate.
But as an Aussie, seeing England lose both the cricket and the rugby in the same weekend will give me a good Monday morning at work!
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Just a woeful, woeful performance that lacked just about everything.
Have to say well done to Sidebottom, as a Notts man I was delighted for him to get 10 wickets and his hat-trick. Credit to Bell too, for showing that if you played sensibly you could get a decent score. With a damaged hand too...
I'm not sure that changing the captain will make that much difference. In 2003 Nasser Hussain stepped aside because Vaughan was doing so well with the one day side. It's not like that now, there isn't a stand out candidate to take it on if Vaughan was replaced.
I think Moores must now come under real pressure. England have won just 3 out of 18 tests since November 2006, all of which were against the Windies last summer. Granted, that includes the 5-0 Ashes defeat, but it still doesn't look good. They look like a side that hasn't won in their last 7 games.
The team have become cynical, believing that if they turn up and play at 70-80% then they'll win. What happened to the never say die attitude of 2004-5, when England pushed until teams buckled? I know Fletcher probably stayed around too long but at least under him we fought to the end and won games...
Oh one more thing, have we ever recovered from losing Troy Cooley?
Roll on Wednesday, things can only get better.
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England are now back where they were in the pre-Fletcher days. There is an air of "Here we go again" whenever things get tough. The only way to sort this out is to look at the County players and find the players who can turn things round when the going gets tough. They might not be as talented as some of the contracted players but making the most of their talent is more important in a team lacking heart. What England needs is players like Atherton, Willey and Fraser.
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"New Zealand are, at best, a reasonable county side"- Paul Avery... you're having a laugh mate. Supporters like yourself have to wake up and realise Engand aren't a top side! Having lived in the UK for 8 months now, I can say safely enough (not just in cricket), English support and media live in a dreamland!
CMON NZ!!
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Well done, Kiwis, however badly England played let's not take anything away from your performance.
I listened to both Vaughan's interview with Aggers, and Moore's. Whilst not expecting either of them to fall on a sharpened microphone just yet, it would have been refreshing instead of hearing the usual platitudes about "we were disappointing in some areas" either/both of them could have admitted to an almost totally pathetic performance and an assurance that arses would be kicked where necessary.
It is all very well to drone on about "elite sports being about confidence" - that might be an element of it, but the bottom line is that elite sports is about winning. And if not winning, then performing to the best of your ability. England is doing neither at the moment and sooner or later someone needs to be held accountable - either sharpen up or ship out. And that includes Vaughan and Moores.
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Bringing Strauss back so soon is analogous to when McLaren recalled Beckham so soon after discarding him. Seems to me that England don't select tough managers who can make tough decisions and abide by them. The team is allowed to stagnate in the guise of team chemistry and past performances.
I have no immediate solutions like fire this guy and that guy, there seems to be an English failing here somewhere that needs addressing.
If you remember the old 3-envelope story then Moores is overdue in opening number 2.
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If it's not bad enough loosing to a very average New Zealand side, how many more times do we have to listen to the same boring excuses being dished out, after defeat "Were learn from this blah blah blah" There's a lot of hard work to do, blah,blah blah" "Were a better side then this blah, blah, blah" and on and on.
The managment need to come out and say if the present squad are not up to it ,then they will find players that are!
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It is frustrating as any pitch that can pose the slightest of problems seems hard for England. There seems to be a psychological problem with England feeling they have to play too defensively on a pitch that doesn't do much unless for spin. Also they can't seem to last long enough and get enough runs hence 50's or lower scores for each batsman. There is a lack of consistency and concentration which is needed. England need tough players who can adapt and stay at the crease for a long time.
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* At 11:49 AM on 09 Mar 2008,
* Paul Avery, Gloucester wrote:
This was embarrassing.
New Zealand are, at best, a reasonable county side, but they worked hard and played with passion and a plan.
I wouldn't be surprised if the English cricketers themselves were thinking along the same lines before going out to bat in the 4th innings. A reasonable county side doesn't have Stephen Fleming, Daniel Vettori & McCullum to call on in pressure situations, nor does it have the young talent this NZ side has.
Forgot their current averages, players like How/Taylor will push their averages over 40 soon enough, it's just that in NZ we have to blood players earlier due to our lack of depth.....just like Sri Lanka is forced to do. Mills was also pushing up to 140km/h pre his world cup ending injury, and with bowling overs behind him he's only going to get better.
I wouldn't get to depressed if I was an English fan though, odds on that the series will finish in a 1-1 type result. NZ are always prone to batting collapses (just like our English friends!) and a seam attack of Sidebottom/Hoggard (he bowled to his potential in his last spell on day 4) and anyone other than Harmison
is more than "handy". Looks like the selectors will stay with Strauss as it's difficult to drop a player after 1 test, but that decision will be evened out by the exact same circumstances with Sinclair for NZ.
The best bet for England would be to attack NZ's third seaming option if Patel isn't picked (probably O'Brien). Get to him then you might cause some problems....unless you don't let Oram come in and bowl at an economy rate of under 1!
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Moores is the Steve McLaren of cricket.Fletcher was removed and what have we achieved with this new coach-absolutely nothing
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It is frustrating as any pitch that can pose the slightest of problems seems hard for England. There seems to be a psychological problem with England feeling they have to play too defensively on a pitch that doesn't do much unless for spin. Also they can't seem to last long enough and get enough runs hence 50's or lower scores for each batsman. There is a lack of consistency and concentration which is needed. England need tough players who can adapt and stay at the crease for a long time.
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A seventh(NZ) ranked team beat a fifth(England) team in NZ. Big deal! What Moores has to anwer to is why after all the resources inut into his Engand team he has not been able to deliver. Is he the right man to run the team? Time for the ECB to make some tough decisions not least on England players' participation in the gravy train now running called the IPL.Notice Kyle Mills is on the next IPL auction list-coincidence or what considering his outstanding test performance?
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First of all, well done to New Zealand and can we please stop the patronising comments that they are at best a competent county team!
Enough is enough. Harking back to the 2005 Ashes glory days has run its course and we have to accept we are not the 2nd best test team in world cricket - if indeed we ever were!
What exactly does Peter Moores' extended support staff do for its money? With the exception of the catching, we appear to have gone backwards in all departments. I get so angry when listening to our two captains during post-match interviews. Stop talking about so-called "positives" - stop the spin and start admitting that you have got it wrong. Also, the occasional nod towards how well the opposition played would demonstrate some much needed humility and sportsmanship. We were so negative in this test match - why?
Where was the passion and pride that should be a given when wearing the 3 lions shirt? With the exception of Sidebottom, Bell, Panesar and Ambrose (only his first match, so I am being generous) the team seemed deflated and off the pace. Disgraceful. Let's stop the team hugs and the pathetic tapping together of gloves and get back to the basics of hard work and commitment.
Harmison should have his central contract shredded immediately on the basis of his recent interview with Nasser Hussain. You are on a very well paid central contract and doing the job you love for goodness sake! You are hardly being sent out to Helmand province for a six month tour of duty!
Unless we get a fully fit Flintoff, Trescothick (unlikely) and Simon Jones back into the fold, we will continue to struggle under the current regime.
Sadly, suitable replacements are not exactly breaking down the door to get into this team, but at the very least I would give Broad and Shah a chance at the expense of Harmison and Strauss.
Michael Vaughan says they will take a couple of days off before the next test - unbelievable! Why not take off the next couple of weeks instead?
Annoyed? You bet I am!
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We
gotcha boys fair and square.
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I would:
1. Send Harmison home to his growing family - he's a waste of space at the moment. Bring in Graham Onions, who at least gives the impression of wanting to play for England.
2. Pick Broad for the next test - Ryan Sidebottom should never be batting at number 8, and that at least solves that problem, and Broad can hardly do worse that Harmison with the ball.
3. Consider bringing in Shah for Strauss, if only to see what Owais can add, if anything.
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Ok so Harmison isn't bowling well. Do you think this test was about poor bowling or batsmen capitulating?
What's wrong with Owais Shah, Mark Ramprakash and Dimitri Mascarenas? Are they injured? Those are batters.
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Best Comment so far...........
'I am fed up with hearing about "positives" whatever they are. I want to hear about success.'
Time England - and the media - realised that they are not a World beating side - and so shouldn't be surprised at this sort of result.
They are now pitching themselves and playing - at the level they are really at - forget benchmarking yourselves against the likes of AUS or SA.
Try to get some coinsistent results against the likes of NZ, WI and Sri Lanka - then we can talk again in 3 years time!
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The format for England Test Tours should be changed. For a three match tour three three day games should be played before the First Test and a further three day game between the first and second Test. For a Five Test series three three day games before the First Test and then three day games between the First and Second and Second and Third. Otherwise not only will the stadium crowds desert Test cricket but the Television companies will lose interest in one-sided series. Twenty Twenty will no doubt take up the TV money.
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Agree with most of the comments so far....spot on actually. Goodbye Harmison, thanks very much. Step up Mr Broad. Battingwise I just don't know what can be done to strengthen things. Englands second innings was monumentally crap. What does M. Ramprakash feel right now I'd like to know !!?? Well done to New Zealand though I really think Vettori is a class act. Me thinks they might win the next two tests too!! Have they ever done that to England before???
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has to be harmisons last chance , possibly stauss to, bring in shah and broad , it does worry me how toothless our new ball attack looks ! hurry up freddie please !!!!!!!!!!
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What a thoroughly enjoyable test match that was. I hope now that you English fans will stop falling for the hype over your team and come to grips with the fact that they are average. I was sick of hearing how our NZ team was "weak". Sure we have had a few of our best players retire recently, but it seems the English team (who hasn't lost anyone to any Indian league) are in fact the weak team. I can't wait to read what Nasser Hussain has to say about this one after he wrote us off before the series started.
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Why does Kevin (KP)Pietersen irritate me so? I really don't want him to. Well, the KP thing for a start grates (but all sportsman have nicknames that annoy me, so why pick on K, sorry Kevin?). Is it because he's not English? Surely not, I would hope I was bigger than that. Is it because he is a 'Flash Harry'? I once saw him driving his open-top yellow (I don't even know now whether it was yellow but in my mind it fits) sports car down the Kings Road complete with pretty blonde girlfriend. Is it simple envy? Again I hope not.
So what is it then? I've just spent thirty minutes going through his Test stats looking for holes and, well, there aren't many. I simply forgot how well he did last year in England - outstanding. So my point is that he could be great. Too many sportsman are called 'great', 'iconic' arghh... etc. Pietersen does not make you feel the way Australia's batsmen do. When they come in your heart sinks. Pietersen should be scoring more, a test average of 50 is way above other England batsmen, but perhaps unfairly I think it not only could but should be higher. I want to see the shoulders shrug, almost hear the hearts sink of the opposition when he comes out to bat. So in language 'KP' will understand, it's time to 'step up to the plate', 'seize the bull by the horns', 'give it 110%'. You could become not simply one of the best but THE best.
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Just like India's Rahul Dravid (while a great player) played not to lose in England last year, England's whole team played with this attitude. The change in the Indian captaincy and youth has served them well against Pakistan and Australia.
Let's not forget skill - England players don't have the batsmen/bowlers the calibre of higher ranked test teams. What has happened since the Ashes of 2005? I tell you what - key players not around and/or not easily replaced. Give the youngens a chance - might hurt in the short term but it will bode will long term.
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Harmison gets paid more than the whole New Zealand team. I for one am grateful there IS a New Zealand team. I'm afraid with only a handful of players, and with those players being paid peanuts and so rapidly leaving for India, a New Zealand cricket team will soon be a thing of the past. Presumably that will be celebrated in England.
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This performance was dire but all too familiar post 2005. In the build up to the tour Vaughan was quoted about the need to build up momentum to next year but this totally misses the point of what they should be doing. Focusing on what is in front of them is far more important than a series that is so far off. The Ashes victory was great but that has been seen as the pinnacle for the team rather than something to build on. The focus on Flintoff and Harmison was also counterproductive; why not stick with the seam attack that did well last summer. It was showing promise and now bowlers such as Broad, Anderson and Tremlett know that they will only play if Harmison is seriously unfit.
The batting in this match was frustrating because as has been shown time and again, batsmen need to attempt to score to actually put pressure on the fielding side. If the scoring rate drops it means the fielding side get to put more pressure on the batsmen meaning that eventually they get out. It also spreads panic among the batsmen, as seen by England's pitiful collapse in the second innings.
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I feel that the BBC HAS LOST ITS WAY IN NOT SHOWING THE HIGHLIGHTS OF THIS TEST SERIES. iT SEEMS QUITE RIDICULOUS THAT THER IS JUST A SCORECARD TO BE SHOWN. i SEEM TO FEEL THAT THE bbc has lost its way in presenting cricket on the television,The sooner the better .
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NZ deserved the victory for many reasons but mainly as a reward for Vettori's attacking nature. How many England captains would have acted in similair fashion and made such a declaration? Vettori has obviously been watching England and knew a 300 run chase on day 5 was simply beyond them. I agree with the earlier comment that we should have just settled for a draw and bedded in because the current batting form is painfully short of conducting a successful run chase. Pathetic.
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I say, let England try. We have to admit, they are a far weaker team than the Ashes 2005. Actually, you could say Ashes 2005 only a spirited but it was inferior than the Australian. Keep supporting them, for the true supporters of England cricket. I'm sure they will rise back to the top. Even if they don't, that's who they are who proud to be representing England with the likes of Sidebottom who never really gives up. I'm proud of them.
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Having watched England play cricket for many years. the players should be ashamed of their proformance and perhaps its time to sack them all and start again. Lets face it what we got to lose.
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Probably the only thing more embarrassing than England's performance here is the opinion of the general public. Having read through this nonsense, it would appear that the proposed way to improve for the next test is to drop everyone except Sidebottom and (possibly) Panesar.
People have offered the opinions that Cook should only be retained for his catching, that Bell should be dropped after his unbeaten second innings score, and that Collingwood (who averages 43 and has scored runs against pretty much all the top test-playing nations) isn't good enough to play at this level. That Hoggard (who, I believe, is still in or around the top ten bowlers in the world? Correct me if I'm wrong...) is past it on the basis of one bad performance. That Ambrose, who kept very competently, scored a debut 50 and then got a brilliant delivery in the second innings, should make way after one test.
People here are questioning the attitude of the England team, but it would seem to me that the attitude of the entire English nation should be questioned; the team might as well be disbanded completely if nine of the eleven players shouldn't be there. It appears that people only follow England to wait for the chance to jump on their backs the minute a bad performance comes in.
Only one player needs to go, and that's Harmison. Afraid the man just looks gone. It's over for him. Still, I wouldn't want Broad to be brought in... another young, talented player to be publically flogged and humiliated should he not be an instant world-beater, ultimately have his confidence shattered and end up jaded and another ordinary 30-something seamer on the county circuit. What's the point?
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No one seems to put their finger on the cause for England's desperate performance.Apart from Harmison, maybe Strauss and Hoggard this is by consensus England's best side.
Does this mean our best side is so poor,or that there is a management /captaincy issue of huge proportions? The latter cannot happen so quickly-is it we really are a poor side with few if any)(sorry Ryan) world class players?
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Message to Michael Nee:
This England performance was not about the players but the way they played. Peterson out of form? 1000 runs in 2007, he is out of form but that just takes him down to a good batsman rather than an exceptional one.
Also Ian bell, his knock showed the good touch he's in. Him and Colly are the Mr Reliable's of the English batting line up. Because he's quiet and unasuming people always like to scapegoat Bell but he'll just keep on racking up those test 50's.
And as for Harmy, well, i think what we really need to do is bring back Ashley Giles!
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It's about time English cricket (which includes future overall strategy, team selection and a coherent coaching policy for every level) was run by ex. cricketers who themselves have had successs in the International arena -may I suggest we look no further then Sir Ian, Athers, Nasser, Bob Willis et al as a starting position. It was extremely fortunate (or was it good foresight) for the MCC to start selling Test Match tickets for the 2008 season PRIOR to this latest debacle. The mediocrity served up by well-paid 'international stars' is probably the best marketing tool that the Indian Premier League could have hoped for. It these abysmal displays continue, together with the high cost of getting to and watchng Test matches, English cricket will inevitably be the long-term loser and it may be sooner than we think!
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England should call Charlie Shrek into their side. he toured recently with the England A team in India, is a tall quick bowler and is currently palying in New Zealand for Wellington so he knows the pitches and conditions. He is also currently one of the highest wicket takers in their domestic compeition.
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I can't believe the negativity that seems to be rife in the England team. It seems that whenever they lose the toss and have to bowl first, they abandon all hope of victory, preferring atritional, defensive cricekt. I've followed cricket for years, and I've felt frustrated, disappointed, but never angry. That is, until now. Harmison should go and not come back. Broad should come in for him. And I'm not convinced about Strauss, he seems so limited nowadays, bowlers seem to have worked him out. Shah should play. The only saving graces were Ambrose and Sidebottom. Sidebottom didn't deserve to be on the losing side.
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Paul Grunill you say that chaging Moores won't achieve anything but you must acknowledge that since he has taken over England's game has gone backwards in every facet, batting, bowling and fielding? What is more worrying is that England under Moores have no clear plan of how they want to win.
I take your point about what happens to football teams that change managers but sometimes it does lead to success as well.
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We need to play Bangladesh every year. In the test series before the Aussies arrived in the UK we absolutely battered them - and would you believe it when it came to playing the Aussies we were ready and they were under-cooked. Now three years later and NZ have performed the same trick on us - a convincing series against the 'desh and everyone's got the rhythm.
It seems the argument is the same in almost every sport - football 'friendlies are useless unless you use them properly' - tennis 'how many warm-up tournaments should you play' and in cricket our very own - why aren't international players ready for big games.
I don't agree that playing one-day games is a good warm-up. If you're a bowler, then avoiding getting spanked around the park is hardly the same as perfecting a consistent line and length. If you're a batsmen then playing an attacking shot every over is not the same as digging in for a draw when you're four-down at lunch!
Let's use what we've got. Ireland and Scotland both have teams - let's use them to warm up before a test series - and maybe give them enough big games to improve.
Changing the players won't change the situation. And ask yourself - if we hadn't had the warm-up against Bangladesh before the Aussies arrived - would we still have won?
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Where is the confidence in this England team? How come Monty Panesar, Ryan Sidebottom and then latterly Ian Bell were able to survive on this final day?
After today's articles about Steve Harmison's contract and his being "scared" I think a very large question mark hangs over his future as an England cricketer. What does he bring to the side if he's only bowling at 82mph and erratically at that. Time for Stuart Broad to get an outing, I think.
What's happened to KP? He seems to have lost his flair. It's nice to see that KP is learning the art of crease occupation but to see him scratching around against Patel when he should be looking to challenge him is disappointing.
People talking about bringing back Prior are talking garbage. Ambrose performed very well behind the stumps and I have more confidence in him than Prior.
I'll bet John Bracewell is loving this having been under fire recently. In fact one might say that England's confidence is in the grave.
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England continue to lower their standards. Perhaps this defeat will stop the management and players talking about the Ashes and focus them on beating some team - maybe there is an under 12 team they can play. The batsmen did not get the criticism they deserved after the Sri Lanka tour where the slow pitches should have enabled them to draw. Any pressure applied to them appears to result in disintegration.
Only Sidebottom and Panesar looked to be of Test standard bowlers but we can hope that Hoggard'spoor performance does not refect a permanent decline. As for Panesar, I am sure he will continue to learn and certainly not just from Vettori - he should aim much higher than that. He has already proved his ability to bowl out teams on some wickets. something Vettori cannot do.
Moores is clearly not up to the job and should be replaced immediately but Vaughan should remain as captain for now as there is no adequate replacement, Collingwood is definitely not suitable.
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So England are lacking in passion, energy and drive? funny that, because just a few months ago we had a wicketkeeper (who admittedly needed to hold a few more catches) whose game was based on passion, energy and drive, yet was hounded by the media for having too much passion, energy and drive. Frankly, its a bit rich to complain about the lack of passion, energy and drive when you've probably played a part in getting the best 'keeper since Alec Stewart dropped.
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Just listened to P Moores being interviewed on 5Live and he's just unbelievable - prattling on about taking "positives" from the game, and sounding confident that they can win the next 2.
This seems to me to show that the there is a worrying arrogance at the top - that we are better than the oppo, and that we "deserve" to win. Vaughan's outpourings over the last 9 months have sounded similar.
Wakey wakey!! We are playing rubbish, haven't beaten a decent side for ages now, and Moores and Vaughan appear totally incapable of motivating the team.
Sack Moores, Flowers (what has he contributed to our batting?!), sign up John Buchanan as coach, and sack Vaughan and make Colly Captain - at least he looks like he is interested in the job.
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I'm sorry to say, and this may sound like a typical knee-jerk reaction to an England defeat but Moores has to go.
After Sri Lanka he said he learned a lot. Hang on Peter, you learned a lot about a tour to Asia. Should an international coach not realise how tough it is going to be for his players before the tour.
All I hear are the same excuses trotted out by Vaughan/ Moores.
I think we need a hard talking Australian, possible John Buchanan as a previous poster has mentioned to shake this team around again.
I see a lack of pride passion etc etc.
Why did Harmison play? He even admitted live on Sky that he was not ready for this test match- yet England still picked him!!
I see no way back for England in this series, and I only hope that this summer brings a new coach and the start of another new era. I don't mind see England lose; but the manner of defeats in the past 18 months has been embarrassing.
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Aggers,
It's quite simple. Would you pay £50 to watch a days play of a test match in England which was led by Vaughan and Moores.
The simple answer is no. Buck up your ideas England - you are so far off the pace it's untrue and Ashes 2005 is a long way back. Perform or relinquish your contracts.
I hope Trecothick returns one day but that decision is entirely his.
As for Harmison - I applaud him that he puts family life first over being on the road for 11 months - with two caveats - one you work bloody hard when you are not playing and two you recognise you only have one chance - you are a long time retired and we need you to recognise that.
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Blame the coaching staff.....absolutely clueless, no ideas and no plan B. Losing to this New Zealand side is a disgrace but the plain fact is they are well coached stick to and execute their plans well so credit to them.
Aggers, you and your media chums got Moores the job with you all writing that he was brilliant this and fantastic that, a little short sighted don't you think? Unproven and out of his depth, why was Tom Moody, who said he would love the job, not even interviewed??? Get Moores out now and we might not lose The Ashes 5 - 0 next year!!!
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The England team seems to lack drive, not skill. I have three theories for why this might be:
1) There is a rift in the team set up when Strauss and Flintoff were in conflict for the captain's job after Vaughan's injury. Players took sides and the scars of that debarcle have not yet healed.
2) There is a rift in the team between those who want Harmison dropped and those who want him to get 'one more' chance. I doubt if the other bowlers are pleased in carrying him match after match.
Furthermore, the batting fragility may well stem from a lack of faith in the bowlers to take 20 wickets.
3) There is a rift between the team and the ECB over them stopping England players joining the lucrative IPL. Most of the key players are missing out on several hundred thousand pounds and the added prestige of joining in on the big new event. Instead, they must play more matches than other international players but without the extra cash.
It's odd that the ECB have suddenly decided to publish player salaries. Why, and why now? Is it because they want to public outcry of the big pay packets of Vaughan, Pietersen et al to silence the petulent posturing of England players who are complaining they are being unfairly treated by missing out? It would be an obvious consequence for such players to loss their drive to play for England...
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Am I the only woman appalled by Harmison's interview with Nasser Hussein. Here is a man who clearly doesn't wish to be there, who would much rather spend time with his family undisturbed by the constraints of foreign travel and fitness regimes but still financed by the ECB's central contract. I wish my husband who has saved his hard earned cash to travel to NZ and watch this shower had such a contract. I totally agree with Sir Ian Botham, everything this man has has come from cricket, and his complacency and lack of desire must infiltrate the rest of the team. Let Harmison return to his family, give up his central contract and I'll have a go!
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I had a feeling England would lose this one as soon as I heard them talking themselves up. As for New Zealand being no more than a "County side", they made it to the World Cup semis while England was fooling around on pedalos..
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Fantastic result, and one I'd never have predicted before the seris started.
Bond aside this isn't a 'weakened' NZ team. Vincent simply hasn't scored the runs, Styris had been in very poor form prior to retiring & Hamish Marshall was never really test standard.
However we're not as bad as some have been sugesting, and you know we'll always be well lead & play to a plan.
What surprised me was how flat England were, and seemed extremely negative for most of the match. I think Aggers is right that it seemed they'd decided it was going to be a bore draw & that was it. It wasn't easy to score quickly, but it was nominefield & England's top order is far more talented than ours, so such a pathetic effort is quite surprising (but pleasing).
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England have big problems at the moment. They need to restore some dignity in the next test, because this was a simply awful and embarrassing final day's play. Remember the glory days of 2005 when Strauss and Trescothick used to get England off to a marvellous start by compiling 100 plus partnerships?? We need to bring back Trescothick,move Cooky down the order,and take out Harmison. SideBottom,Hoggard and Panesar, plus Collingwood is more than enough in terms of bowling attack. Need to sort out our frail and pathetic batting!!
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Disapointing that before and during the first test Jonathan Agnew overlooked the obvious, New Zealand is playing at home on familar wickets which suit their bowlers. New Zealand is rarely easy to beat at home. Perhaps a little more respect would help the English to fulfil their potential.
Good result in the rugby as well. The end of another 1 match unbeaten run for the all conquering English.
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So much for an easy England win then, eh?
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what really annoys me is the fact that we only seem to have 15 players we can choose from, inevitably the same faces = the same scenario. (the coach needs to go as clearly not inspiring and he has NO answers), where are all the other english cricketers??? why pick players who are out of form and unfit? I loved watching flintoff when he was in form, but when he was playing the last few games, the commentators would say ''here comes flintoff, he can really make a diference'' and then he wouldn't, because he was no longer in form! we seem to be living off how players used to be and let them into the team based on their history not how good they are at match time! Pieterson has got to be one of the best batsmen in the world, I agree, but he should not be playing now, neither should vaughn, harmison,strauss and hoggard. if they are telling us that they are better at their worst than ANY other english cricketers we may as well give up now. my goodness they are supposed to be professionals and if we all delivered (as they are doing) at our jobs we would be fired!
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No Marshall, no Styris, no Astle, no McMillan, no Bond.
Embarrassment doesn't even come close to describing this defeat.
Moores must go now! If he refuses to resign we must (Geoff) boycott this Summer's home Tests.
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The positives, such as they were, have to be Ian Bell, whose curve continues upward, and Ryan Sidebottom. I agree that coaches are not like football managers and should not be subject to the same 'hire and fire' mentality, though - as a Tottenham Hotspur fan - the benefits of hard decisions when it comes to managerial changes are plain for all to see.
It is not Moores who worries me so much - after all he introduced our new best bowler Sidebottom - but Michael Vaughn. What was going on in the first innings? There was an insidious defeatism which led to grindingly poor cricket. And it didn't even work!
I think Vaughn's captaincy should be over, though I still rate him as a magnificent batsman and was at Headingley last summer to see that peerless comeback hundred against the Windies. I think England should try the grumpy perfectionism of Kevin Pietersen with Colly as official vice captain. I agree with the earlier comment likening Pietersen to Nasser Husaain who, in my opinion, was more influential than any other person in kickstarting the England cricket revival that culminated in 2005.
There is no sign of improvement so change is needed.
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Aggers you are right is saying that there can be no excuses. We are living in the past, around 2005, to be precise.
This loss in New Zealand was a much worse perfromance than that at Adelaise in 2007. The oposition then was top rate, and on the last day there was more in the pitch for the bowlers.
The batting tactics in both innings showed a naivity and lack of thought. When combined with the lack of preperation of the two main strike bowlers for the match is severe condemnation of the Management and Captain. Moore's is looking like a cricketing Steve McClaren, and Vaughan's future as captain must now be considered. Three straight series losses will be unacceptable for both to remain in place.
The inability of Peterson and Bell to push on to a hundred after getting a start is becoming a major issue. What is going on between their respective ears?
I am sick of hearing about what the players want when planning tours. We should revert to properly planned tours with real warm up matches. If a player does not want to fit into the schedule or has personal reasons for staying at home, then his central contract should be withdrawn and he be told that he will not be considered for the following home test series. Like the footballing colleagues, the impression exists that for those "elite" players who have broken through, that playing for England is no longer the ultimate honour for an English qualified cricketer - it is a job. That attitude must change.
The Selectors should be bold in their choices for the second test. Shah and Broad should be bought in for Strauss and Harmiston. If we lose that test match then Collingwood should take over for the 3rd test match and Vaughan should only play if he is good enough as a batter.
Finally, well done Daniel Valtori and his New Zealand team. They fulfilled their true potential and the sum of the parts was significantly greater than their individual skills. They behaved as you would expect an International side to do.
If
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totally unacceptable. how can an english side play like that? we have been poor for some time, but the whole performance was terrible. the entire test was simply flat from England, it felt like there was nothing going to happen. changes must be made, most pressing is Harmison, probably for Broad, at least he might have some stomach for the fight. Moores should be retained, for now. as for the other selections, they must look outside of the England 'bubble' and to the county circuit. it feels like to much of a closed shop. The only man to break that trend? he was the one who took 10 wickets and a hat-trick.
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Peter Moores is our version of Steve McClaren. He's in the job off the back of winning two 'soft cricket' county championships and does not seem inspiring or tough enough to me. Otis Gibson is nothing more than a journeyman bowler who on the achievement of taking a 10-for at the age of 37 is now a qualified international bowling coach. Whenever you got a Sky picture of the dressing room he was engrossed in a newspaper!! not tearing a strip off bowlers who were way below par. I hate looking back but Troy Cooley.......
Three overseas test series' running England have been nowhere near running at the start. Will anything change from learning these lessons? Of course not. The suits at the top will probably call for yet another 'committee' enquiry to look like they are justifying their roles.
Arrrrgggghhhhhhh !!!!!!
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Bringing Strauss back so soon is analogous to when McLaren recalled Beckham so soon after discarding him. Seems to me that England don't select tough managers who can make tough decisions and abide by them. The team is allowed to stagnate in the guise of team chemistry and past performances.
I have no immediate solutions like fire this guy and that guy, there seems to be an English failing here somewhere that needs addressing.
If you remember the old 3-envelope story then Moores is overdue in opening number 2.
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a good deal of criticism has been rightly aimed at out of form players such as Harmison and Strauss, but I hear litlle about the consistently poor performance of Pieterson. For a player ranked well inside the top ten of the ICC rankings, he fails to produce match after match. The press love his flashy style, but he is not a 'thinking' cricketer-- he is almost always dismissed cheaply playing rash shots. Dropping him from the team might give his ego a bit of a wake up call.
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Bringing Strauss back so soon is analogous to when McLaren recalled Beckham so soon after discarding him. Seems to me that England don't select tough managers who can make tough decisions and abide by them. The team is allowed to stagnate in the guise of team chemistry and past performances.
I have no immediate solutions like fire this guy and that guy, there seems to be an English failing here somewhere that needs addressing.
If you remember the old 3-envelope story then Moores is overdue in opening number 2.
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Tell the England players that they'll not be paid for the rest of this tour or the NZ matches in UK. Replace those that moan or leave with the best of those that would play for their country for nothing.
Then get the team shrink, assuming they have one who understands his job, to demonstrate and educate these wimps on aggression and the way to use it in focussed ways.
At least we'd then have players who we KNEW wanted to be there showing some passion and committment
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Please can we give just a bit more credit to NZ for playing the more positive cricket? They fully deserved their win.
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Well no surprises here - another spectacular batting collapse from England. I do agree with Aggers that there was something massive missing from this England performance. The first innings batting was nothing short of depressing. The reason that England got themselves up to 2nd in the world was because of their positive approach – not giving up because the opposition got 470 in their first innings.
Sadly, Mr Harmison must go this time. The fact that Vaughan let Collingwood bowl before him in the second innings speaks volumes and if Vaughan has any say in picking the team for the next test then Harmison will not be playing. Looking at his slow demise since 2005, it is actually quite unbelievable how he has lasted so long.
There really must only be one choice – Stuart Broad. He isn’t express pace, but would have certainly outpaced Harmison on this form. I’m an Anderson fan, but with Hoggard and Sidebottom – it’s looks a bit too swing samey. I’ve got no doubt that Hoggard will come good in the next test.
Special word about Sidebottom too. Talk about a guy playing with pride and someone passionate about wearing the 3 lions on his shirt! I was among the doubters when he was recalled last year but I couldn’t have been more wrong. It is a shame that his passion hasn’t rubbed off on certain other England bowlers…
There must have been some dodgy team tactics as regards the batting in this match. Even KP was negative and they all made out that the pitch was a minefield. I would not have minded if England had lost this game but had been more positive in the process.
Despite the often woeful batting, I wouldn’t change anything on the batting front yet. Therefore the line up should be:
Cook
Vaughan
Strauss
Pietersen
Bell
Collingwood
Ambrose
Broad
Sidebottom
Hoggard
Panesar
But Strauss ought to be under the same amount of pressure as about a week ago!
And well done to NZ. They played some very positive cricket and credit must go to them.
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I'd agree with Matt at 11.41 about making Pieterson captain. The problem with the team is psychological - the general consensus is that players are just not adding up to more than the sum of their parts (more like subtracting from the sum of their parts). That indicates the lack of strong leadership and inspiration is lacking. Pieterson is naturally confident and competitive, and any aloofness he might have in the England set-up could be useful in ensuring that he can maintain an authoritive distance from his team. It could be a big risk, sure, but he could just shake things up a bit and inspire a bit of fight - exactly what this listless and stale team need.
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The painfully slow batting of Petersen and Collingwood summed up England's negative attitude.
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Hmmm. I really can't see what harm adding Ramprakash could've done to this woeful side. I think a man who averaged a ton for Surrey last summer could've made a 50 or so both innings against the Kiwi's 'attack', and perhaps held together the second innings long enough for a draw.
Enough with selecting 'icons' and let's start selecting plaeres who actually perform. Good night, Harmison. Good night Strauss. Good night (IMHO) Pietersen, you always disappoint.
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Cannot help thinking that Matt Prior would have been able to bat long and well enough in the second innings to at least get us a draw or perhaps a win. But the media destroyed him just like thay have overhyped Pieterson. Like football there are too many old pro's around the England cricket team offering their "four penny"'s worth.
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As a Kiwi, it was great to watch the last day and enjoy the victory. The pitch at the Basin Reserve in Wellington will offer a little more pace and bounce than Hamilton, but not that much more. It will certainly be a bat first wicket. From an England perspective, the only change I would make is Broad for Harmison. Broad has a great future in the game. He has that little bit of a 'Botham' about him - aggressive, looks to make things happen, bangs the ball into the pitch. It's normally very windy in Wellington, and England will need to think carefully about their 'into the wind' options. Broad, I think, could do the job well. The England batsmen collectively need to take responsibility for poor shot selections and overly defensive attitude in Hamilton. They have the ability and experience to turn it around. Should be a great second test!
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Not quite correct about Fletcher - he was invited to leave and his life was made a misery by the media who are far too quick to condemn people.
Moores was appointed too quickly in a panic attack, and after what appears to be an absolutely pointless waste of time of the Schofield review. The ECB should have waited a while to make a decision - the analogy with the appointment of Steve McLaren is a good one.
It's all very fine saying get rid of Michael Vaughan, but who would take his place? In too many counties we have overseas players captaining teams (Warne and Langer spring to mind, and until recently Stephen Fleming himself) so England players get far less opportunity to prepare for captaincy. If we're not careful the national cricket team's fortune will reflect that of the football team. We seriously need a Fabio Capello with the mental toughness to help sort things out and the overseas county captains who've signed up should be let go to the IPL and not ever recalled.
It's all very fine criticising these players for being bland with the media but it's the media who insist on getting quotes 24/7 thanks to this machine I'm writing on just now. The players were not appointed with a second job as PR men and I think some of the postings about what players have said are ludicrous. Of course they'll utter platitudes - because they're damned if they do and they're damned if they don't. Remember the Guardian headline about Fredalo and the trouble it caused?
Hats off anyway to the Kiwis - they really made an effort and got the result.
Harmison is clearly undercooked. Hoggard I would wait a little longer for. Sidebottom - an excellent player.
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I blame central contracts for the malaise afflicting English cricket. If a player is paid what appear to be vast sums of money , then of course his place is guaranteed, otherwise we have to pay people to do nothing. let the contracts be scrapped and send the lot back to county cricket. Players should earn the right to play for England. In all honesty New Zealand are only really a decent county class side and even the much lauded Vittorie is only top class at limited overs. The wickets will be very similar for every test as this suits the home team and their style of play. Has it escaped everyone that the Blackcaps played the test as a series of linked one day matches and virtually all of them were involved in that series whilst most of England's stars were giving it large so to speak?
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bring back ramprakash
get rid of strauss and vaughn
broad 4 harmy
and give the captaincy to collingwood
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The sad conclusion from your article is that even after the inept performances in this test there are few options to change the side. Harmisson should be dropped. I would keep Hoggard - I think he has been a consitent performer for many years. Regarding the batting - too many players are not playing to their potential When did Vaughan or Pieterson last score a century? Strauss looks a shadow of his former self and Cook is yet to find consistency. It is so frustrating because we know these are good players but they are not performing. Ultimately, Flintoff's bowling is a huge loss but a country of England's resources should really be doing better against NZ - a country where the public show no interest in test-cricket and where a number of their players are quitting the game for india. Oh dear.
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bring back prior!
ambrose has done ok but at the moment he's just keeping the keepers position warm while prior learns how to catch.
prior will come back and smack the aussies to death.
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Ok so what do we have from this test match?
Four England players passed 50 in and innings – but how many runs would we have scored if they had been encouraged to play their natural game? Aggers commented on the strange way KP’s innings developed in the first innings and how he seemed to struggle under the pressure not to give his wicket away. Collingwood did what he always does and scrapped for his wicket, Ambrose showed promise with his batting and keeping, Vaughan did what he should do more often and Bell did well until he ran out of partners. Sidebottom was outstanding and Monty began to redicsocer the form that made him such an exciting prospect on debut.
Someone mentioned Troy Cooley. England have not been the same since he joined Australia. Maybe the Aussie factor / attitude was as much of an influence on the way the team played as the reverse swing skills he gave them. We are traditionally a nation who have made more of the way we play the game rather than the results we get. We need to open our eyes and understand that the world has moved on. Sportsmen / women need to wake up and understand that although we love to see them playing well we also want to see results.
England’s women recently retained the Ashes in Australia and had a successful tour of New Zealand. They operate as a team, they fight for each other and spur each other on to success. I don’t see their male equivalents working in the same way.
People keep mentioning Ian Bell and his worth in the England team (or in many cases looking for him to be dropped. Here are a couple of facts. Statistically Bell is more likely to score fifty (or more) in a test match than any of his colleagues. We all recognise that he must convert more of these to centuries than he is doing at present – but he is consistently making a contribution.
While Bell averages 0.71 50s / match his colleagues fugures are as follows;
Cook - 0.60,
Pietersen - 0.59,
Strauss - 0.48,
Vaughan - 0.47
Collingwood - 0.42
I am looking at the English Lions results in India and I am not sure who from that team could step up – any ideas Aggers?
Roger
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Apart from Harmison and to some extent Hoggard all the England players have had some measure of individual success in this game at one point or other. This suggests the problem isnt so much about individuals but about overall collective spirit and direction. For that the blame has to be laid firmly at Michael Vaughn's door.
As all good people manager's know a good leader adapts his style to the individuals in his team and the situation. Vaughn may be capable of taking a confident, performing side to new heights (Ashes 2005 etc)but he clearly isnt capable of lifting an underperforming side out of a long term slump. Time we said thanks for the memories and moved on - Pieterson is my pick.
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85: "Losing to this New Zealand side is a disgrace".
It's no disgrace getting beaten by a better team. "Team" being the operative word. England has some talented players, but they are poor as a unit. Stop dreaming that England is a quality side. 5th/7th in the rankings suggests otherwise. When you're at the top you can talk all you want. The 2005 Ashes were an exception, not the rule. All the media in NZ has described England as "worthy adversaries" etc, and looked forward to a good contest. Wake-up and enjoy the cricket! You can admire the New Zealanders' skills while you wait for England's to improve. It's not an act of treason.
If NZ is a "reasonable county side", does that make England the sunday afternoon pub league 3rd XI? England won't win until they, their media, and their supporters respect their opposition, and take each game as it comes.
Enough about your hubris, victory is sweet! Another round!
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England's progress in the early part of this decade culminating in the triumph of 2005 was characterised by good performances with bat and ball allied to imaginative and inspirational captaincy. All are sadly missing and have been so for a while. I don't think you should get rid of Moores because he's not been in the job a year yet and its ot going to solve anything. Mainly because these problems were evident in the last 12 months or so of Duncan Fletcher's reign
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Dear Aggers,
Its a decent article. But having read most of your previous articles, its just on the fence comments but not completely honest. It in a way reflects "on the fence" comments by Vaughan.
Coming to the match, its one thing scoring centuries in every match (or a double in some!!) against an impotent West Indian attack once every two years (home and away), improve your averages, bully them and falsely show the world that we have one of the best teams having ever graced this earth.
Ever since the Ashes victory in 2005 (I wouldn't call it an aberration but definitely a touch lucky when McGrath was injured and the series was very close) the team is just not a "team".
Petierson is a very good player but not as great as some project him to be. Vaughan is nowhere the player who bullied Aussies in 2002 (that was the best I'v ever seen in test cricket for a long time). Changing the team may not help winning but may infuse the desperately needed enthusiasm.
One last thing, is there something called "Trescothik Syndrome"? I have just coined it. Half this team have got the same symptoms that once described a very good player.
Cheers
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Seeing the forum where everyone has expressed this feeling of downward spiral England has gotten themselves into, this is a gut check time for the selectors and make bold moves like the Indian team did against the Aussies. Would it help to bring in a proven Aussie coach who is tough and uncompromising and light that fire under their bottoms! Even the supreme optimist Jonathan Agnew had nothing to be optimistic of England's direction from here. Good things will happen once we make the tough selection choices.
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it's just a good job they don't show england on normal tv anymore.
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I am tired of being embarrassed by the England cricket team's incompetence over the last thirty-odd years. Except for a brief interlude in 2005, an interlude which has been shown by subsequent events to be completely freakish, England have not been able consistently to challenge the best team in the world since the very early 1970s. While no doubt the players have been decent and intelligent men, in international cricket terms they have also been, and continue to be, complete clowns....as has just been demonstrated yet again.
I can only assume that the county game as currently constituted is the culprit; it's not as if the counties are churning out obviously test-class players who then mysteriously fail to perform at international level. Could I therefore recommend a radical course of action? That there ceases to be an England team. Cancel all tests, including the 2009 Ashes, which at least would, I suspect, prevent England from their first ever (I assume?) defeat in a five-day test during which they fail to take any opposition wickets. The loss of finance would almost certainly cause the rapid collapse of county cricket (would anyone notice, except county employees?). Over the next thirty or fifty years an alternative cricket structure would develop, suited to what people want from a sport and to competing at international level, not (as now) a pretty healthy game at grassroots level smothered by a self-referential and incompetent 'top' tier. I don't think anyone would much miss the England side - no-one has worried that it has been at best second rate since about 1972, so its complete absence would be barely noticed - or even be a relief (I mean, just imagine what is going to happen in summer 2009 - it doesn't bear thinking about).
I realise that this would require those who run the game to act against their personal interests, but I can't see any other way to get rid of the current structure and replace it with a competition which is interesting to the public at its top national level, and able to produce players who can compete internationally.
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The next time an England player states, after another stuffing by inferior opponents (on paper at least)"well we shall have to learn from that" can the interviewer please ask the player who utters such banalities exactly what it is he has learnt because it appears to me the players have learned nothing in the past three years.On the other hand we the supporters have learned that Harmison should go together with Strauss,Anderson and Moores the coach who has brought nothing to the England set up
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It's the negative attitude that I cannot cope with. Playing for a draw right from the beginning of the first innings ? Can you imagine Australia or India doing that ? And don't say "Ah, but they are better sides". Which is cause, and which is effect ? Are they better because they play to win ? Or do they win because they are better ? Play to win, England, and it might just unsettle the bowlers. By playing not to lose, you hand the initiative to the opposition on a plate... and lose.
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To Blog 83
Aggies would you pay £50 to watch a days play,
He doesn't have to, He gets paid (by you and I with our BBC Fees) more than that to watch it. So he (and the England Cricket team) get paid to watch the sport he/they love.
Blog 93, What anoys me is the fact that we only have 15 players to choose from. Thought you were talking about the NZ team ha ha ha.
Maybe the players should be on commission only, win and get big pay day, Lose and its Zip nothing narda
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This is a shocking defeat but it is also symptomatic of English sports at the moment
We win a couple of matches and then think we are invincible
Vaughan clearly does not possess the skills needed to motivate the players and with HIS recent performances perhaps he should also be one to go
A shocking and disappointing result
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One word 'PATHETIC'. The English effort is best sumarised by the batting of Paul Collingwood...to score only 2 runs from 50 balls is pathetic inept and a disgrace. Nothing changes with England, they talk it up before the series how they are going to do this and that, but when the pressure is put on them they crumble (as usual). The are weak minded, weak willed, weak skilled, weak aptitude, weak commitment, weak EVERYTHING. England are pathetic and for anyone to say otherwise is just kidding themselves.
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All I can say is Australia are great winners, but England are champion losers
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Moores must go now! If he refuses to resign we must (Geoff) boycott this Summer's home Tests.
=====================================
I like the pun. Seriously though, the England team need to stop going back to the Ashes 2005. I knew this would happen when we won it, but come on Australia have been destroying england for years and i dont see many open top bus parades for them, or even any kind of awards (mbe's etc) for their players esp Shane Warne.
I do like Vettori though, like the variation he offers and sometimes he is like a medium paced spinner. Crucially he can bat.
But England need to sort themselves out bigtime. Stop harking back to the past, look for fresh faces to put the jitters up the squad. Some of those players now think its their god given right that they play for England.
As for NZ being a county side. Ive never heard such tripe before. Again its this arrogance, showing the opposition no respect that hurts me. NZ fully deserved their win today
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The source of all of England's problems can be found in the quote from Vaughan at the start of the tour. I can't remember it exactly but it is something about looking to win the Ashes next year.
Admirable aim Vaughan, but looking to win the Ashes next year isn't going to help you beat New Zealand NOW.
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Any sane person in this world cannot understand why English players and fans keep on talking about Ashes as if that is the only premier series in the cricket world and the rest are side shows. Get real poms. No one else in world cares about it(including the australians). In all honesty, it would take a hell of an effort for England to not lose to even a time like Namibia.
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Aggers, totally agreee that Broad would be a better option than Harmison, he's lost his mojo & is a complete waste of time, what must Otis Gibson think when he puts in a performance like that?? The batting was once again truely disgraceful, when in a position to win the game.
All is not lost though, look at a positive aspect from this game, never have i seen such brilliant catching from an England team, if we can maintain such standards in the field coupled with a return to form of Hoggard (we all know he'll come good, as always) we'll be ok.
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Bringing back Strauss was a predictable failure as well as a retrograde one- Shah needs to come into the team and bat at 6. Time is finally up for big Harmi as well- which is a shame, but Broad has to play. Only way is up!
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Does the ECB remember where they put the number of that nice Mr Fletcher?
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Shame we let Duncan Fletcher go by the way- people go on and on about Cooley, but Fletcher was the best batting coach England ever had- I find it hard to believe he would have put up with this capitulation.....
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It cannot of escaped everyone's attention that Charlie Schreck is playing for Wellington at the moment with good success. He completely outbowled Anderson playing for Auckland when they met this week. Sidebottom was picked on form from nowhere and has been a success, so why should Charlie not be?
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Has everyone forgotten this was a "terrible" pitch for test match cricket!!! Yeah Right!!!
Looking at the evidence it would suggest that it was a good (not brilliant) pitch for test match cricket. There were runs in the first couple of days which were scored at a decent clip (obvious exceptions), wickets over the last 2 days and a game to play for on the final day of the test!!
Just because NZ managed to score 400+ in the first day and half of the test and then England struggled to score at more than 2 runs per over the commentators were blaming a lifeless pitch that wasn’t “conducive” to Test Match cricket - Absolute Rubbish!!!
I think it shows that the commentators were already making excuses for the English Team in the first two days for the poor first inning bowling performance and boring batting performance.
As a keen follower of the Black Caps over the years - I would be the first to admit I thought the Enland side were going to win the test match series 3-0. This NZ side has some talent coming through and some very good players in Oram, Vettori and McCullum but on paper the England side looks stronger. However I think as this test has shown test match cricket is as much about mental toughness as it is about talent.
It was great to see Vettori as captain lead from the front, have the metal to pick 2 spinners and then force the game in the 4th day. Still expecting England to bounce back and possibly win this series against a fledgling NZ side but it was a very encouraging performance from a new look Black Caps side.
As per previous comments – England aren’t as good as they think - or more likely the public - think they are! There batting line up is reasonably strong but their bowling line up seems to living on past reputations.
Looking forward to a tight competitive test match in Wellington – the city of gale force winds
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Whatever happened to the team 'expressing themselves'. There has been an awful lot about batsmen 'expressing themselves' in just about every interview for years.
Not a lot of that today.
Something fundamental has to be done now about the team, not at the end of this series as the next one follows on too soon.
Get rid of Vaughan. Sorry Michael but you're just not hungry enough. Collingwood as Captain of both (all?) aspects of the game - he may have a lot to learn but at least he realises it.
Think SERIOUSLY about central contracts. For FF to have been paid what is reported in the papers today for barely playing is a nonsense it also means that players like Strauss and Harmison are selected because they're being paid anyway rather than because they are in any kind of form.
Say a big HELLO to some new blood - it worked for the Indians - Broad (definitely) but there must undoubtedly be others.
Probably, though, none of this will help as long as the suits and blazers run county cricket.
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Time for England to come out of the shell and make some radical changes ... People who runs ECB didnt like change thats why they brought Peter Moore as a Coach ... When a foreign, energetic Coach was required. Its time for ECB to wake up ... If they dont bring young blood I see another ASHES whitewash ... may be Aussie will win by 4 - 0 ( one test might be drawn coz of rain ) ... Look at the Captain ... he still plays like test cricket used to be in 80s when it takes you 100 balls to score 20 runs ... England bowlers suck !! they dont have any motivation ... they are bunch of old losers ... I m sure right now even Bangladesh can beat them !!!
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England suffer with Acute Ashes Syndrome. Every other series is built up as a recovery from earlier Ashes and preparation for the next Ashes.
It's time for English media to come to terms with the reality. They practically built this series as a win- NZ as pushovers. NZ has always been a hardworking team. They are far more exciting to watch(Fleming, McCulum,Oram, Taylor and Vettori) than England most days.
England are natural losers. If match in the balance, England time and time again have shown that they lack courage to take it to the opposition. They are a C grade team under pressure, especially if a win is possible, they loose.
Harmison, Hoggard, Strauss, Vaughan,Panesar are good players over hyped by the media- they had a few scattered great matches in the past- but over all compared to other top line cricketers they've mediocre careers. Look for Sidebottom to slide toward the average in the near future.
Pointing, Hayden, Clarke, Tendulkar, Dravid, Lee, Murali, Vaas, Kumble, Kallis, Gilchirst, Pollock,Vettori etc are head and shoulders above the English top line cricketers for over a decade now.
GET A REALITY CHECK!!
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England badly needs players of the quality of Dravid,Laxman to bat through out a day.One-day and t-20 houvering over the English Batsmen it seems.
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As I said two days ago England doing so well bowling in NZ's second innings only papered over the cracks in the batting. Today those cracks were made to look as big as the Grand Caynon! With Monty being our 4th Highest scorer every England batsman should hang there head in shame! Most of our batsmen didn't even pass 50 when both innings are taken together! As for replacing Harmison what will that do? Will his replacement score the 100 more runs an innings we need to win? Aggers what are your views on the batsmen? Based on this performance we could carry Harmy and Hoggy if any our batsmen would have gone to get a ton in the first and another 50 in the second!
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NO SURPRISE- CRICKET IS A DYING SPORT IN UK; BARRING AGGERS & A FEW OTHER OLD FEATHERS- NO ONE CARES FOR CRICKET IN U.K.
ENG CRICKET IS DULL, BORING (2 runs per over for 200 overs?). IT"S A PACK OF FOOLS OFF THE FIELD ROOTING FOR A PACK OF LOSERS ON THE FIELD.
I JUST READ AGERRS DAY 4 COLUMN AND COULDN"T STOP LAUGHING.
ENG ARE A BIT MORE IRRELAVENT TO WORLD CRICKET AFTER THIS, GIVE'EM FEW MORE YEARS TO WIPE THEMSELVES OFF FROM ANY SERIOUS INT"L CRICKET RADAR.
WITH ICC MOVING FROM LORDS TO DUBAI, REAL MONEY MOVING AWAY FROM ENG COUNTY TO IPL AND AUSSIE RIVALRY MOVING AWAY FROM ENG TO OTHER TOP TEAMS- LOOK FOR WELL OILDED ENG TO LEAD A TIER III GROUP IN CRICKET.
GO KIWIS!!!!
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Sick sick sick of hearing the phrase "taking the positives". When Australia got beaten in 2005 (yes, it did happen...) they talked about analysing and learning from mistakes and went away and worked doubly hard, culminating in a 5-0 thrashing in of England last summer. Lewis Hamilton uses the same language and I bet wins the F1 world championship this year. Managers and players who "take the positives" are refusing to face up to deficiencies and destined for failure (where are you now, Steve McClaren?).
In essence, though, I agree with the comment by another poster here that the root cause of England's abject recent performances can be traced back to the extraordinary decision to name Flintoff as captain for the 06/07 Ashes ahead of Andrew Strauss, who'd just enjoyed an excellent summer culminating in a 3-0 defeat of Pakistan. The decision destroyed one of our few world-class batsman and created a chasm through the middle of the side which has yet to be bridged.
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As a New Zealand supporter I am astounded at the English media and public response to the loss. Describing the New Zealand team as a competent county team is rather insulting. The team seems to have no respect for other teams, and continues to rests on laurels of Ashes glory.
The players that have replaced the likes of Astle, Styris, McMillian and Vincent are just as talented, if not more so. Ross Taylor is known for being a rapid scorer in the one day form, and has now proven he has the capacity to craft an innings and push on for centuries. Jamie How is a prolific scorer in the NZ one day domestic scene with several double centuries, and is probably one of the most mentally tough batsmen the country has seen in a long time. And the class of such players as Vettori, Oram, and McCullum is well known, and they have been rewarded with IPL contracts.
The England team is a good side and i'm sure the next two tests will be just as hotly contested. They seem to be just lacking a bit of structure and conviction, bring on the Basin Reserve!
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Not one person has mentioned that NZ went into the Test match with two spinners. We have a second very capable spinner in Graham swann who gives the ball a good tweak and varies his flight well in the longer form of the game - why not drop Harmy and Hoggy and bring in Broad and Swann?
Both of them can bat so it will also make up for the shorfall in batting application from the top 6!!
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Gosh, what a dismal performance! I really think it is time for England to focus on women's cricket - maybe we can deliver more success in that arena while the boys think long and hard about how to get back into the game.
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Not one blogger has mentioned that fact that NZ were very successful going into this test with two spinners.
We have a very capable second spinner in Graeme Swann who varies his flight well in the longer game as well as giving the ball a good tweak.
I believe that we should drop both Harmless and Hoggy and now include Broad and Swann. This would also negate that fact that the top 6 batters haven't fired, as both of these can bat as proved in the county game (with Swann's top score of 183). This would also negate the Kiwis from producing any more slow "Roads" and therefore playing into their team's hands.
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Boycott's so-called 'analysis' of this latest disaster summed up exactly what's wrong with England. "We should be getting a clear idea now of what our side for the Ashes will be" he prattled. WRONG! We need to get a side together to win this series now, then we need to focus on the next series etc...England seem to think nothing else matters but 2009 and I think most supporters are sick to death of that attitude. And Moores just perpetuates it! Totally agree with all those fed up of the army of hangers-on that 'Team England' employ.
England played the most deplorable cricket and their negative approach got them entirely what they deserved. Well done NZ.
People talk about far harmison has fallen, but Vaughan has fallen equally as far since 2002 - he can no longer get a place in a 1-day international side because he simply wsn't good enough, so how is test cricket any different? He no longer looks the part and has a very one-dimensional approach to captaincy. Collingwood is like two different players - he has played far too many blocking innings in Tests, why doesn't he adopt his one-day attitude and actually get some runs? Bell needs to stop believing his own publicity and actually make consistent scores instead of preening himself, he needs to know his place isn't secure. And Cook comparing himself to Hayden? Who on earth allowed that embarrassing interview? Until Cook learns to move his feet properly he too will never make consistent runs.
Desperately disappointing and the prospects look none too bright.
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Oh dear oh dear.
Snatching defeat from the jaws of a, ahem, draw (if not a win).
England's attitude was for all to see in the first innings - strike rate of around 30 for most batsmen against a team with a rookie spinner (why didn't KP decide to club him round the ground?) and a pitch that was doing very little in reality.
'Grievous' has obviously got to go, as Vaughan doesn't have confidence in him. Strauss has used up his 'old boy club' credits - one decent pre-test performance is not worth a full recall.
I wouldn't make wholesale changes apart from that. Bell and Ambrose did enough to get some confidence from the match. And a classic long and weak England tail didn't help, but with little in reserve for all-rounders, Broad's the only option.
My line up:
Cook
Vaughan
Shah
Pietersen
Collingwood
Bell
Ambrose
Broad
Sidebottom
Hoggard
Panesar
Another option would be Swann instead of Broad, and use a twin spin attack. But then with Moores seemingly afraid of the unconventional, that'd be a big ask.
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An innocent question:
"This myopia and "we know cricket" arrogance. Is this only confined to English media or is it integral to the sport across UK?"
All I read from the English media leading upto the series was this idea: Eng is a world class cricket team who will use NZ tour as a preparation to fine tune their skills for the upcoming Ashes.
Why so much arrogance? I am the kid from the 1990s and only on rare occassions witnessed England as a real deal in Int'l cricket. So where does this idea that they somehow still hold the mantel of the game of cricket come from?
*A 3-2 home series win in 2005 is a good result but it's not world shattering. Compare that to a 5-0 away defeat in 2007. In both forms of the gane and an T20- England cricker is somewhere between mediocre and dismal. So why did idea that they still own the game?
It's Australia on the field and India off the field who are leading the game of cricket. So why this elitist attitude?
It's a honest question.
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Im sure there were plenty of "positives" to take from the game, Im sure the preparation was "Ideal" and "fantastic" and Im sure the lads will "come out fighting to put it right in the next test". I expect the usual guff and hot air will come from the Team England bubble of Moores,Vaughan, Collingwood etc. I just wish they would stop talking about how great they are going to perform and actually do it for once.
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If Harmison isn't bowling at 90 mph then he isn't worth a place
How many chance is Strauss going to get?
Vaughan has never been a prolific scorer and I think it's time to make way for a younger man. That man isn't Collingwood as he's an average player at best.
Pietersen hasn't performed since the ashes and is too much a celebraty. He needs to go back to County Cricket and score some runs.
The centralised contracts have actually had a negative impact on performance, bred arrogance and complacency. They should be scrapped and instead the players should get paid well when they play a test match and collect a large bonus when they win. At the moment they are on ridiculous money and don't actually have to perform.
Sidebottom has shown what a bit of desire can do. He came to Notts, had a coach that believed in him and really knuckled down and plied his tried with real committment.
So for me, I would bring Mick Newell in as coach and shake the tree a little.
Paul
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Please, please, please, can my fellow England fans stop embarrassing themselves by calling New Zealand a "county side" - did any of you actually watch the match??? NZ batted with purpose and aggression, and the bowling from Mills and Martin last night was perfect test match line and length.
It saddens me to say it, but the collective team spirit NZ seem to possess is the complete opposite to England. They are aggressive, mentally tough, resourceful and play to the best of their ability (rather like the Aussies). England at the moment are a collection of potentially very talented individuals being chronically undermined and let down by a lack of ambition, negative mindset and an arrogant belief that all they have to do is turn up and they'll win. As a consequence, they are playing to the very least of their abilities. Very sad to see, especially as in 2004-2005, the very opposite was true.
I really hope Vaughan/Moores/Miller have a browse of the comments on this blog, as they seem to very accurately reflect the anger and disappointment most England fans feel about the direction their team is headed.
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Fair play to New Zealand - their approach to cricket has always been admirable. They have very limited resources, both in terms of talent and depth, but they always, ALWAYS make the most of every ounce of what they've got. Well played, lads.
As for England? Moores must now go; Panesar must be made to realise that he is not always going to be an automatic selection - let's start trying other spinners once in a while; Harmison has had his last chance. Can't criticise Pietersen: he at least tried to play outside of his usual arrogant mode, and tried to apply himself.
Maybe it would be better if we didn't have a coach at all: let the players sort themselves out once picked, as used to be the case - certainly India didn't seem too affected by the departure of Greg Chappell.
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The test match was predictable in the way that it was heading for a draw. However this would have happened if the batsmen would have shown a defensive tactic within their batting. Cook was out by hitting the ball loosely therefore edging it to the wicketkeeper. He is well known for his defensive play however when needed, Cook decided to attack, which wasn't needed at that moment. A draw could have helped to bring the postives out of the match such as the fielding, bowling (Sidebottom) and the sensible batting in the first innings (Ambrose and Collingwood's fifties). Yet this wasn't meant to be.
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Steve Harmison is picked as one of the "top 11" cricketers in England to play and represent his country at the highest level.He and his family should understand what an accolade this is and how lucky he has been to have these opportunities in life and have such a talent. Yes he has a family but so do most of the other international cricketers playing in the world right now but they either get on with it or STEP ASIDE. What is wrong with him? Send him home from the tour and never pick him again he is a disgrace. This guy used to bowl at 90 + with real conviction and menace, now he is no more than an average fast medium up and down dolly bowler who usually bowls too short, too full or too wide.
And is it just me or have England got a hell of a lot worse since the departure of Duncan Fletcher. Moores has no character, conviction or purpose about him, he is mediocre and lacklustre at best. We do have a good enough squad of test players to be back at second in the world but they lack the belief thay had under Fletcher. We may not be the second highest ranked test team but judging by last nights fiasco we can definately be described as "number two". Someone needs to get in that dressing room and knock some sense into those overpaid pampered underperformers. "It was a slow pitch" ... yeah it was but for both teams, no excuses. There are always excuses with these guys and its pathetic. It i did my job as badly as this lot i would get sacked within 5 days!!!!
Sort it out england, this is painful.
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Firstly, thanks to Paul Sandles for a well-written and insightful post (8). A pleasure to read, Paul.
Well, where do we go from here? I was at a party last night and asked a f