Change of emphasis boosts India (105)
- 2 Sep 07, 06:29 PM
A chilly, damp day at Headingley with a howling gale did little to encourage good cricket, but India deservedly prevailed in a match littered with fielding errors to keep their interest in the series alive.
Both teams were guilty of missing chances, largely because the white ball dipped and swung on its way to the slip fielders, while Yuvraj Singh received a crucial reprieve on 10 when umpire Nigel Llong failed to detect an edge to the wicket-keeper off the bowling of Monty Panesar.
Yuvraj then played some magnificent shots to reach 72 off only 57 balls which pushed India's total beyond 300.
Ian Bell and Matt Prior got England away to a flying start in reply before both fell to Sourav Ganguly, but Kevin Pietersen’s poor trot continued with a third ball duck and England quickly slipped to 104-4.
Only Paul Collingwood, with a superb unbeaten 91 kept England even remotely in the hunt while Mahendra Singh Dhoni equalled the record number of dismissals - six - in a limited overs international.
Both teams were forced into making changes. India decided on a change of balance by dropping RP Singh, who has bowled superbly on this tour, and replacing him with a top order batsman, Gautam Gambhir. This was an inevitable decision reached because India simply couldn’t continue with their tail starting at seven.
Of course, it could be argued that the front line batsmen should be scoring the runs, and I wonder if it was merely a coincidence that with the comfort of an extra batsman in the team, Sachin Tendulkar, Ganguly, Yuvraj and Gambhir all passed 50.
England, meanwhile, must be sweating over the continued problems that Andrew Flintoff is suffering with his left ankle. He has now had three operations, and it was clear watching him bowl at Old Trafford on Thursday that he was struggling.
I know that Flintoff, himself, is starting to have nagging worries about his future, and he will be desperately hoping that the medical opinion he sought today offers some measure of reassurance. If that is not the case, Flintoff’s winter plans, starting with the Twenty20 championship in South Africa in nine days’ time - will be thrown into confusion.
Flintoff’s obvious replacement, Ravi Bopara, meanwhile, has dislocated and fractured his right thumb. He was able to bat, but fielding and bowling will be a different proposition, and faces a race against the clock to return to fitness.


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Got to admit the series has been exciting..hadnt had much faith in englands abilities to play one dayers..and had been thinking of a through spanking of england by india.
its good to see sachin back to his old self and england improving in the one-day game..the new bunch are definitely a better lot!!
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When is the ECB going to drop Pietersen - it is not a question of poor form but more a matter of impatience; he doesn't give himself time to judge the pace of the ball but is trying to score immediately. Hismissal today was pathetic - waving his bat at a ball way outside his offstump.
Pietersen needs the shock treatment of being dropped !
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Saurav Ganguly is a born leader. He lured the charismatic Prior and later silenced the well performing Bell. Two important wickets that put pressure on England for the rest of the evening. His two for 26 from 7 overs was outstanding indeed.
Ganguly played his 300th ODI in style. A hundred runs partnership for the first wicket with Sachin provided a fine platform for the the rest of the match. His 70th half century in an ODI with sweetly timed boundaries and massive sixers was gorgeous. He has brought back Team India into the reckoning. Sachin too has been in top form. What a commitment by these two dynamic and experienced world class cricketers ! They keep playing, hitting fours, sixes, bowling their stuff and sending younger batsmen back to the pavilion.
It was nice to watch Yuvraj and Gambhir playing important innings and adding valuable runs to the total.
For England Paul Collingwood was outstanding with the bat and the ball.
Congratulations to Team India for keeping the ODI series alive.
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"When is the ECB going to drop Pietersen..."
Don't be ridiculous. Pietersen is one of the best batsmen in world cricket. He has had a poor series but history shows that his slumps in form are very short-lived. Dropping our best batsman is a ludicrous suggestion.
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Today's result (5th ODI) reveals the absurdity of the D/L method. How on earth could England's target be reduced by a mere 14 runs in 5 less overs (yes 5 overs less !).
When rain stopped play, England needed 83 runs in 11 overs, to get the original target - easily achievable, with Collingwood set.
I try to teach kids Maths - what sort of mathematicians were, (are ?), Duckworth & Lewis ? The match should've been void ! John Macdiarmid
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Dropping Pietersen would be silly.
Form is temporary, class is permanant, it now means he's due runs.
Shock treatment works with some, with others, it will destroy them.
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Is it only me or would England's batting order look more balanced with Pietersen dropping down to 5 and Collingwood batting one position higher at 4.
Many critics believe that your best player needs to bat the most overs, I don't particularly agree with that in Pietersen's case because he is the one player that can hit balls in areas other players would dream of and KP is a man who enjoys the pressure of the last ten overs and losing him early like we have done over the course of this series is both a waste of his talent and unfair on the weaker lower order who could do with the brashness of Pietersen to make their own games flourish
Simon
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Flintoff's injury problems are looking increasingly serious. With this ankle, it is hard to see how he could hold down a place in the test team as a bowler - batting at no.7 or 8. And if he wants to reinvent himnself as a batsmen then that is looking rather difficult given his present form. Maybe the Ashes 2005 really was as good as it got for Freddie.
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Pietersen's dismissal today was entirely forgivable. He got a cracking ball that would have troubled him if he'd been at the crease for a couple of hours, and, of course, he'd only been there 2 minutes. It was excellent bowling again by the underrated Zaheer Khan.
Earlier in the series Pieteresen has got out against the spinners, once getting bogged down for several balls trying to fiddle the ball to square leg and twice misjudging Chawla's leg spin variations.
He might have moved his feet a little more to counter the ball from Zaheer but batsmen to get stuck on the crease early in their innings, especially when they've been short of runs.
The man still averages 50 in ODI's despite a thus far disappointing series. Collingwood, by comparison - who was extremely effectively late in the game when the writing was, however, already on the wall - has an average well short of 40, although it is improving.
This is not to completely excuse Pietersen, though. A few slaps to mid-on, quick singles etc and instead of trying to settle himself with perfect shots he could just get down the other end and accumulate himself back into some form. I wonder if there might have been a single available from his second ball today and, if so, he wouldn't have been facing the jaffa that ended his innings...
But once he get's to 30 you'd back him to go on and start putting together match-winning innings again.
Drop him? Load of rubbish! That's the sort of selection policy that made England rubbish in the late 1980s and the 1990s.
Great series, let's hope for 2 more close games. ODI's have been getting predictable recently so it's good to have had some that have gone to the wire and 2 others where England have kept trying right until the end to chase down scores that ultimately were out of reach. England are showing more self-belief in this series than I've seen in ODIs for a long long time and that's making a big difference.
The series scoreline hinges on decisions made by the captain who has won the toss. India lost twice when inserting England, decisions that were a little negative. And England lost today by inserting India, a more attacking decision which was easier to understand given the conditions but which, with the benefit of hindsight, was wrong. 3 games effectively decided by the coin and the scoreboard pressure of chasing.
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The D/L method uses all the variables, most importantly wickets lost to work out what a team would need to be on in order to get to the 50 over target. England needed to be ahead of were India were because they had lost more wickets and therefore were less likely to be able to score quick runs.
(Not sure I explained that well but basically the small reduction in the total England needed was due to the fact they had lost plenty of wickets)
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India deserved to win as they showed lot of commitment,batting first. The final 2 games will be very interesting to watch. Piterson seems to have a mental problem with his approach. He looks dangerously suscptble while playing good balls and he is defnetly not out of form. England has been waiting for a big innings from him and alas it is not coming. The indian bowlers have sorted him out and they seem to know his weaknesses. It was beautiful ball bowled by Zaheer a la Wasim Akram. It just did enough to confuse Pieterson to commit into a shot and moved a bit. Way to go Zaheer and India.....
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Well played India!
Great batting performance - All the batsman made good contributions. I'd think about bringing in Uthappa for Kartick though.
Bowling and fielding still an issue - India seriously miss an all rounder like Pathan and a livewire fielder like Kaif. Powar and Chawla continue to impress but Agarjer is way to erratic.
England made a slight error in bowling first (though it could have gone either way)
I'd bring in RP Singh for agarkar at the oval.
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Normally for an England v India series I would be neutral, but after the World Cup and a series of adject and ridiculous performances by India, I did not want to support a bunch of players with not committment to the cause. Today was different and should be a blueprint for future games. Players like Dhoni are finally realising that they are not all that and are grinding out performances. Zaheer still needs to sort out his attitude but it was good.
The D/L method is ridiculous and completely ruined the runchase (same with CWC final in barbados). Perhaps a fairer method would have been tell Eng, you have 45 overs and now chase what India got after 45 overs.
Oh well, Oval should be a cracker and I wish I had a ticket. Come on England.
PS - umpiring is still poor like the caught behind not given when india were batting but unlike Indian fans on Thurs, I glad the English are congratulating the opposition on winning instead of crying like babies
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India played superbly today to make the series 3-2. It shows that they still can play after being demoralised becos the series cud easily have been 3-2 to India, sans the magnificent partnership of Broad and Bopara.
I haven't seen the top order play this well in a long time. Maybe the comfort of having an extra batsman allowed tendulkar and ganguly to play their natural game. Tendulkar deserves a century!!!
The spinners were flawless and didnt lose their mind wen Collingwood was smacking the ball to all parts of the ground. However, I think Agarkar is still a waste of space and that the Indian team are virtually playing with 10 men as Agarkar hasnt contributed with the bat, the ball and not even fielding in this match as he dropped a relatively simple catch of jon lewis.
Anywayz India for 4-3!!!!!!!!!!!!
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team selection should be done on performance not on past recods i think peterson should be given a rest and make way for good one day bats man..let kevin get his form back for srilanka.this odis means nothing who ever wins the series means nothing.
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India deserved to win today but once again qa captain on winning the toss inserted his opponents only for his bowlers to let him down
Persinally I would have stuck with the Broad/Anderson opening attack rather than entrusting the opening overs to Lewis who is patently short on international class
India are a bowler light at the moment with Agarkar in poor form - Bell and Prior took full advantage early on but gave Ganguly far too much respect
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Agarkar is a vegsarkar protege, and a Mumbai forced error. We have to live with it, we Indians, as long as BCCI is run by Mumbai and Punjab.
We have kaif and Pathan rotting in India, while Agarkar, with his wastrel spell, gross fielding and exaggerated all-rounder status is masquerading as his better part.
Pathan with the bat will hammer a few and field well in outfield, and can also bowl at Mohinder Amarnath pace to take wickets in ODI.
Kaif is a batsmen in disguise, as his fielding saves 30 runs, which is his default contribution. Any batting from him is a bonus.
So, there's room ofr improvement. If Harbhajan can improve his temparament then, we have an addl. bowler as well.
Good tidings India
Ruava Buleskywitz
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I have to say India have made this England team look a lot better than it actually is.
If India had a captain that could read pitch conditions better ie win the toss 4 times and bat 1st 4 times then the series could be 3-2 or even 4-1 to India right now.
The Indians have done everything possibly unprofessional to lose this series by dropping so many catches, fielding badly , running poorly between wickets and mind bogglingly keep selecting Ajit Agarkar !
Yet they are only 3-2 down really explains why England is only above Zimbabwe and Bangladesh in the ODI rankings.
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Mr. Ravi Bala, please keep your cricketing knowledge to yourself. You seem to have very short memory. I am not a big fan of Agarkar but dont forget his bowling from the 4th match. Dont even talk about including Kaif in the team. He saves maximum of 10 runs but doesnt score at all. Pathan should be back in side if he is in form.
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England has a wobble but will win the series well in the end. England to win the series 5-2!
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Ahh Duckworth and Lewis, those famous Indian Mathematicians !
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Good game once again. I for one do not complain about umpiring, because in international cricket, the umpiring mistakes mostly even out. Secondly, teams winning the toss and putting the other team in and then losing the game, is also a load of rubbish. At Bristol, England managed to lose and at Old Trafford, India couldn't force the win. These are but two instances, the remaining are very much one sided contests...like today.
I think it is the absence of Flintoff that lifted India up more than having another batsman. He was the only bowler who was constantly troubling batsmen. Also, having him in the eleven works as a catalyst on other English players and you can see the difference in attitudes. That attitude is sadly missing today in England players. And the results showed. Unfortunately, young Broad suffered his first real thrashing at world class batsmen. I sincerely hope and pray that he looks at this as a learning experience.
Having said that, time and again, I keep reminding people that the Indians are a class apart when they are in form. No other batsman in the world can provide so much joy of watching one bat, than (save for Lara) when Sachin/Saurav/Dravid are in full flow. You can see other batsmen clubbing the ball than the majestic caresses these gentlemen conjure up for the best of the balls. Sachin's straight drive, ondrive, Dravid's six off Broad kneeling down, and Ganguly's off drives....yummm!
It was a great treat for pure cricket lovers. Young English bowlers, hopefully, learned something today..i.e. when bowling to a great batsman/batsmen, just say a prayer before you bowl a ball and let things happen. There is nothing anyone can do really, when these gentlemen decide that enough's enough.
I read some calls for dropping KP. Why? Who are you going to replace him with? Do you think Sachin/Dravid/Saurav became such great batsmen because they kept scoring in all of their 300+ ODI innings? Ups and downs are but natural.
Dropping KP is the most ridiculous thing I heard so far. His batting order also should not be tampered with. Let him continue batting at 2nd down. The big innings is just around the corner. Opposing teams always pay special attention to the best batsman of your team. So, no wonder Indians seem to be charged up and are working on different plans to unsettle him the moment he walks in. For example, one would have thought that Dravid would bring on Piyush, the moment KP walks in to bat, just to score a psychological point. But, surprisingly, Dravid kept him waiting for Piyush and had his medium pacers take KP out. I call it good Captaincy rather than KP's mistake. Also, the ball(s) he got in these two games were real beauties. They would have gotten any one out.
Fielding...even considering the windy conditions, Indian fielding is pathetic at best. I have never seen a bunch of international cricketers trying to stop a ball with their feet. That shows their mental state. They are afraid to dive (so as to not look foolish on the big screen TVs?) and are unwilling to bend (that is genetical...I think.). Unfortunately England seemed to catch this misfielding bug too, today. However, I did see some good stops by Indians today. Definite fours stopped by diving fielders. Good sign.
About Agaarkar, I agree he is an enigma. Also calling him an all rounder is like insulting the specialists that go by the tag of all rounders. Considering the options left for India (RP - economical, but not pentrative. Munaf - I will be surprised if he plays another game without being a fill in for an injured player), India are better off to stick with him. He does bowl a wicket taking balls every so often. He almost had Bell with an absolute beauty. Cook's dismisaal was very well set up too.
If anyone needs a talking to, it should be Ian Bell. His role needs to be to buckle down (especially coming in at 6-1) and graft the innings than throwing everythign he has, at the first ball he faces. He is riding a high this ODI series so far, and seemed to think all he has to do is to throw his bat at the ball. England cannot affort that, as it was shown in these two games, after him, the batting can crash.
Looking forward to the next two games. Oval will be a nightmare game for the bowlers. Very high scoring game. I just can't wait.
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An important breakthrough for Panesar, taking out 2 top order batsmen.
Or at least it would have been if the umpire hadn't been daydreaming.
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Some puzzling things about this match.
1. Why did India resume their innings after the first rain break? Is the policy to give one team fifty overs and then adjust the other team's target by DL? I would have thought it was more sensible to give both teams a fair shot by having the same number of overs.
2. On the subject of DL. 14 fewer runs in five fewer overs as a target seems ridiculous. I remember a similar 'adjustment' in the world cup. I forget the match, but one team had an adjusted target of exactly the same number of runs in two fewer overs. (or something like that)
However, the result was the correct one in the end. India deserved their win.
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So India are playing five specialist batsmen, one wicket-keeper, four specialist bowlers and one specialist fielder who is not that special in the field. I'd really like to know Dravid's explanation of why he is persisting with Karthik in stead of playing Uthappa or RP Singh who can fill a role.
What can you say about Agarkar? I'd like to see his birth chart as to how the stars are aligned. That must be a real lucky chart.
Powar has bowled well and should play the next match. However, in my opinion, it is not wise for the long term to have a player in today's game who is such a liability in the field. We need to find someone with better potential or bring Harbhajan Singh back.
Good win for India. If we bat to our potential, there is a good chance of winning this series. Good to see Gambhir making some runs too along with the usual suspects.
There was a time when Prior and Bell were batting, the Indian fielding looked scared. Credit must be given to Dhoni to keep his composure and make some good plays. Made the difference in the field.
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It was noticable that the England batsmen walked when they edged to the keeper, whilst the same cannot be said of Yuvraj. Surely he knew he edged it??
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No comment that England lost five overs, but only
12 runs were knocked off required score.
Quite barmy.
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I can't believe people on this forum are complaining that Agarker is a poor fielder. He was outstanding in the 2004 series against Australia and has one of the strongest arms in the indian team. You people are so narrow minded, obviously you people don't follow indian cricket as religiously as I do hence the you judge players on the basis of 1 or 2 games. India will come back and win the series and that will shut all the critics of the "supposed weak links" in the indian team up!
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Another problem with English cricket is the scheduling. The ODI series with India finishes on 8th September, and then the players bearly have time to breathe before flying to SA for the Twenty20 - Our first game there is on the 13th, so there's less than a week to recover, acclimatise, and train for a different type of cricket and challenge. It's a farce, and yet another reason why English cricket is suffering. It would have been better to extend the test series, and reduce the ODIs, say 3 ODIs and an extra Test - would have been far more entertaining than this worthless charade - 7 matches in a series? Foolish to say the least.
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Am a indian fan.. however all this talk of dropping pieterson... trust me.. as a fan of the opposition, I get a chill down my spine seeing kp come out to bat.. he is easily the best batsmen england have and without him.. they have a very medioacre line up.
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I watch most cricket as a cricketer from past.Indian team has selection problem.it is going on from long time,there filding is very poor,they could have won edgbaston match easily as well as oldtraford if they hold all the catches and field,some time i think tere fielding is wors then normal park player,if they wants to compet they have to improve their fileding and image.there is a quite a number of goog youngster in different state of india but they are not getting threr chances.if they do then indian team could be far better then what it is now.
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For once an umpiring error has gone in India's favour and not England's--- Yuvraj's reprieve.
England need not moan Flintoff's absence through injury. They must find replacement.
It is amazing that India won the game inspite of shoddy ground fielding and poor catching.
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Lewis short of international class?? he didn't bowl as well as he could BUT got Tendulkar out and his 10 overs went for 20 runs less than Broads!!
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Maybe it's time Andrew Flintoff took the time he seems to need to allow his injury(ies) to heal completely. Perhaps he should forget about the remaining summer matches and the 20-20, even consider pulling out of the winter tours and concentrate on being fully fit for next summer. I feel he was rushed back to take part in the current one day series.
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I don't think India is gaining anything with these wins. Sachin & Sourav always play when the pitch is a belter (like in Bristol & Headingly) and there is no pressure on them. I haven't seen these 'stars' play when the team is chasing a challenging target. With age, their reflexes and foot movement has also deteriorated. They will be easily gobbled by fast bowlers who are aided with some movement from the pitch.It would have been really pleasing if some young openers (like Jaffer & Karthik in Tests) would have given India a start like yesterday and then Gambhir & Yuvraj had capitalised in the middle overs and Dhoni smacking the ball in the end.Agree India are winning at the moment but Sachin,Sourav & Dravid will be forced to retire in an year's time after thrashings from Australia and Pakistan. I think a loss which provides experience & exposure to youngsters and helps them groom for future (as in England's case) is much better than a win provided by old and aging players (as in India's case).
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For posting :02 Sep 2007, John Macdiarmid wrote:
Today's result (5th ODI) reveals the absurdity of the D/L method. How on earth could England's target be reduced by a mere 14 runs in 5 less overs (yes 5 overs less !).
Hi John,
Did you have the same opinion about Duckworth lewis when in 1992 final SA vs England when rain interruption made SA need 23/24 runs from 11 balls to 22 runs in 1 ball. I am sure the D/L system must have seemed fair to you back then.
Its cricket buddy. Sometimes things go you way and sometimes they dont;)
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D/L would have been made a complete mockery of if we had fallen 20-30 runs short of the total set in 45 overs - because we could have easily chased down the target India set in 50 overs.
It doesn't seem fair that you can lose a game sat in the dressing room. Look at the other night when Broad and Bopara did the business - if rain had interrupted then there is no way we would have won.
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Some English fans seem to complain that D/L robbed Eng of victory. I find it absurdly difficult to imagine they really think Collingwood would have scored the runs in company of Panesar/Anderson. He is no Afridi,I doubt even Afridi would have managed it.
As far as D/L lewis method advantage,if it was not present, SA not England would have been in 1992 WC final.
I agree with Ravi Bala. Agarkar is a waste of time,money and effort as a cricketer.He should join the ICL instead of playing for India.
He picked up 4 wickets in the 4th ODI,but he seemed more surprised himself after he took those wickets. Batsman offer him wickets because he offers 2-3 boundary balls per over.Sometimes he gets lucky and picks wickets.I wonder if he has taken wickets with actually good balls which batsman has not understood.
Irfan pathan is a much better player than Agarkar even when he is out of form.
As far as the umpiring benifit error score stands 5 -1 in favour of England,so I really dont think England should complain too much
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A couple of things about revised targets - firstly Duckworth/Lewis takes into account the number of wickets that have fallen as well as the runs required and when the rain came for a second time, thus reducing the length of England's innings, at least three wickets had already fallen, hence the apparently small reduction in runs required. Secondly there is a suggestion from someone on here that Duckworth/Lewis came to England's rescue in the World Cup semi-final of 1992 - this is not the case for the rain rules in that competition were completely different (and utterly ludicrous) and involved removing the lowest scoring overs of the side batting first in calculating the target for the side batting second. Duckworth/Lewis is not perfect (it can't be, for cricket is not an entirely predictable game) but it is certainly considerably better than anything that has preceded it.
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I don't think that the DL method is flawless but it is the fairest method available. England weren't robbed by yesterday's run reduction.
Might have been a different story if the dozy umpire had seen Singh knock the case of the ball though!
BTW - Duckworth Lewis wasn't in use in 1992 when South Africa were knocked out of the World Cup semi-final.
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Duckworth-Lewis wasn't around at the time of the 1992 WC - the somewhat infamous England-SA semi-final was decided on a far less fair method of setting a total in an interupted innings. To use this as an argument against Duckworth-Lewis is therefore somewhat flawed.
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Many people came out quickly pointing to me that the D/L was not around in 1992 and it did not come to rescue of England. Exactly the reaction I wanted. It was rule after all was it not just like D/L is.
I wanted to get that reaction becasue I just wanted to make a point that no law/rule in any game is perfect especially if it affects the normal flow of game.
Every rule to achieve a result is flawed and we have to accept it.Sometimes the rules work in our favour ,sometimes they dont. Thats luck.
For eg in FIFA WC I remmber France played very good in the final but lost in the penalty shhotout. The whole of Italy rejoiced and the penaly shootout seemed a good idea to Italians.
But when Italy lost in shootouts in 1994 final ,the same law seemed so unfair to the same Italians.
To overcome this so called unfair means of deciding a game,FIFA came out with sudden death concept ,wherein again many teams played excellent soccer for 90 min +extra time and lost because of one mistake in sudden death.
What I am trying to say is nothing in life is perfect unless it goes our way.
So Dont you think ,those complaining about howD/L robbed Eng ov victory stop complaining because it may be quite possible the D/L comes to English rescue in next game.
Be sporting guys and accept what happened.
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milind has made an excellent case for D/L and as a neutral my view point was that england were never going to get that target either way. However I must also say that this continuing suggestion of umpiring mistakes favouring one side is plainly ridiculous. I've seen plenty of English batsmen given out this summer when hawkeye suggested that the ball was missing the stumps. Clearly Indians are only remembering those that have gone against them. Equally there have been two decisions that have been plainly false, without the need to refer to technology. The first was when Ganguly was given out lbw when he hit it, and the second was yuvraj yesterday. So in that regard it is also even. Please stop complaining about umpiring, it does not mask the failings of your side. Two great batsman does not make a great side
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Milind
how can you say that SA would have won that game rather than England when they required around 11 runs an over for 2 overs? thats still a challenging score.
I don't like the D/L method at all but i can't think of a better way of doing things really, its luck umpireing decissions sometimes it goes your way and sometimes it doesn't so i can't complain (i didn't really think we were going to win that match anyway after seeing how well Sachin and Saurav started it off)
congratulations on the win, hopefully England can get one of the last 2, should be exciting either way
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I think England players such as Pietersen should stop making silly comments about England being "able to beat anyone" just because they have won a couple of one day games. In fact it would be much better if Peitersen (and others)shut up and try to do what he used to do best i.e. batting, if he still can. I don't want to see his face on my TV screen if at all possible.
I am also sick and tied of "taking positives" from games we lose and "putting the ball in the right areas" and "getting it in unusual places". In fact it would be much better if England players kept their inane PC comments to themselves or everytime they come out with this rubbish a pie is automatically thrust into their faces.
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"Clearly Indians are only remembering those that have gone against them."
Actually, it would be more accurate for you to say that both some of the Indians and some of the English are only remembering those that have gone against them and conveniently forgetting the reprieves their respective teams have benefited from. It's just that the English fans whined ad nauseum about luck, toss, weather, umpires the whole Test series and claimed that was justified. Fair enough. But then it's annoying that when some Indian fans choose to whine about their own perceived bad luck, poor decisions etc, the English fans then turn around and trot out trite phrases like "swings and roundabouts" and "part and parcel of the game."
The truth is both sides have fans who go on ad nauseum about umpiring decisions etc. It was the Indian fans during the last two matches when both Collingwood and Broad received reprieves and now the English fans are complaining about Yuvraj and D/L, and they complained about losing the toss the first couple of ODIs.
And to the guy who said the English players walked while Yuvraj didn't. Check the Test series. On at least a couple of occasions, the English players did not walk, unlike Karthik who did :) What was that annoying phrase again? Oh yes, swings and roundabouts. :)
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It's time Duckworth-Lewis was abandoned. According to reports here, in the recent match England needed less than 8 runs an over off 11 overs before rain struck. After the rain, under D-L, England required 13 runs an over off 6 overs. This is because the D-L method gives too much weight to wickets lost compared with overs remaining. I know, on average, D-L is reasonable. But cricket followers don't care about averages, we care about the result of the match we are watching. D-L can be so ludicrous that it no longer has any credibility with me, and I'm a statistician with respect for both D and L!
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Aggers, yesterday, when Powar was catching Bopara, one could clearly see Collingwood trying his best to block the fielder.
Hypothetically, if that catch was dropped, because of Collingwood's antics, would India appealing for batsman obstructing the field...out of place?
I wonder how English fans would have reacted to that. Also, all the English fans keep pointing at their players walking and Yuvraj not walking. Well, with Collingwood's stupid act, I guess that is balanced too eh?
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re ks
couldn't agree with you more, there has been too much whinging on both sides of the equation. The English fans seem to have concentrated on weather and injuries, whilst Indians have focused on umpiring. Both sets of fans should acknowledge that there will always be small elements of fortune in cricket, but the test series saw a fair result, and the odi series score is a fair reflection of what has happened so far.
I felt i had to defend the umpires though, as it seemed as if they were being labelled as bias. That is a personal insult against guys like Taufel and bucknor who have been doing a good job for a long time. Neither had their best summer, but allegations of bias are totally unfair.
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"I felt i had to defend the umpires though, as it seemed as if they were being labelled as bias. That is a personal insult against guys like Taufel and bucknor who have been doing a good job for a long time. Neither had their best summer, but allegations of bias are totally unfair."
Mark, I agree.
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sunny wrote: "Aggers, yesterday, when Powar was catching Bopara, one could clearly see Collingwood trying his best to block the fielder"
Colly was trying to get back into his crease. He neither blocked, or attempted to block the fielder. The only reason why this is being mentioned at all is because the fielder reacted in a such an infantile manner.
As a matter of fact, far too many Indian players have been guilty of similar childish, over-reactions throughout the test and odi series.
There were at least three such incidents during yesterday's game. One which I have already mentioned, one where the bowler childishly kicked the ball away and another occasion when several Indian fielders ranted at an English batsman because they thought he was taking too long to get ready.
I always associated these kind of temper tantrums with Australia and Pakistan but it seems like they're creeping into the Indian team now.
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I wonder if anyone can answer this question for an American trying to understand cricket. I've followed the Test matches this summer very closely, and now the ODI series. There seems to be plenty of interest in both. My question is: given the choice, would an England fan prefer to win the Test series or the ODI series?
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ANSWER for Wayne from Maine wrote:I wonder if anyone can answer this question for an American trying to understand cricket. I've followed the Test matches this summer very closely, and now the ODI series. There seems to be plenty of interest in both. My question is: given the choice, would an England fan prefer to win the Test series or the ODI series?
Answer: If english win Test series and loose ODI,they say ODI not important.
If reverse then they say ODI important ,test is old mans game.
Ever since they won the 2005 Ashes ,they lost tons of ODI and their reason was "We are preparing for Ashes in asutralia" and for this reason they kept on loosing looosing trying to rest their so called great players. The final Ashes score was 5-0.
In other words English prefer to win whatever they can cos a win is rarity. Same for soccer WC,Everytime lots ofs noise and hype and QF they r out.
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When India's innings was interrupted by rain and an early lunch was taken, they had around 4 overs left and the DL par score had they not completed those overs would have pushed their total up to 317. They got 324. They exceeded the par score as calculated at the time of the interruption. That is because they batted very well during those 4 overs, and and England did not offer a wicket-taking threat.
Had England restricted India to the par score or lower they would have had to chase a lower score and the recalculation after the second rain delay would not have seemed quite so severe.
So what. It is the best system currently in use and everyone knows the rules. Perfectly fair if somewhat lifeless.
Well batted India. England bowled without any real threat and India took full advantage. There after the scoreboard pressure took its toll.
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Wayne from Maine wrote: "I wonder if anyone can answer this question for an American trying to understand cricket. I've followed the Test matches this summer very closely, and now the ODI series. There seems to be plenty of interest in both. My question is: given the choice, would an England fan prefer to win the Test series or the ODI series?"
Hi Wayne. Try not to take any notice of the rather bitter reply by Mr. Mahmood.
The honest answer is that most (I'd say greater than 95%) of English fans would much prefer to win the tests. I would prefer to win 1 test than a whole odi series. Test match cricket is hugely important whilst odi's are little more than a bit of fun.
In around a year from now very few will be able to remember anything about the current odi series but plenty will remember the tests. Its always the case.
England recently won an odi competition in Australia, beating the world champions several times, but it means nothing as we lost the test series.
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if i can answer wayne's question without seeking to wind up the english (fun though that can be), test cricket is the purest form of the game and the standard by which all the greats of the game are judged. One day cricket has its value too and is very entertaining, but is not such a true test of skill. Michael bevan is the ultimate evidence of this, one of the greatest one day batsmen but his technique did not stand up to the test match arena.
One day cricket has brought many fans to the game who don't understand it enough to appreciate test cricket, therefore i suspect you'll find varying answers from the english fans.
Sajif is right that many of the english tend to overstate the case for test cricket, this is probably because they take such comfort in being the second most successful test match nation. Second of course to the mighty australia who have only lost one test series in seven years
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"Form is temporary, class is permanent"
What a stupid, fatuous comment to make. Either somebody is playing well enough to be in the side, or he is not, it is a s simple as that. No matter how many scores he made last series, if a player is not currently batting/bowling well enough, and there is an alternative in the squad who might do better, then it is time to try somebody different.
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Dispite Petersen having started his England career in the one-day side before moving on to the full Test side, I cannot understand why his place in the current one-day side is now not in question. To me he has seemed the real weak link in the side for some time. I don't think it is simply a loss of form - as all sportsmen/women experience from time to time: rather a complete lack of undrestanding of the genre of one-day cricket. There are numerous examples of his inability to read the one-day game. Leave him out,I say.
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agnew's column mostly repeats the match accounts taken from other journalists.he should offer more analysis and editorial insight otherwise why bother?
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There have been many schemes to adjust for rain interruptions. DL is the only one that is fair to both the batting and bowling sides.
Yesterday, India were winning the match before the interuptions, and the revised targets reflected this balance.
D&L deserve a Nobel prize for devising such a scheme ;-)
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agnew's column mostly repeats the match accounts taken from other journalists.he should offer more analysis and editorial insight otherwise why bother?
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mark wrote: "Sajif is right that many of the english tend to overstate the case for test cricket, this is probably because they take such comfort in being the second most successful test match nation"
Sajif did not put across a good case at all. He only revealed his dislike for English cricket and its fans.
As for your point about the English overstating the value of test cricket. This simply contradicted what you stated earlier in your test.
I can recaul when England used to beat both Australia and the West Indies when these sides were hammering us in test cricket. It was no substitute or consulation for getting beat in the tests then and it certainly wouldn't be now.
Just because odi's are more popular in the sub-continent doesn't mean that the rest of the world takes them so seriously.
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Why does England persevere with Lewis (John, not Duckworth)? I don't remember the last time he did anything for the national team? Then he's brought in and also disrupts the bowling lineup. If he's the best of the rest, I'm sorry for English talent.
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Why does England persevere with Lewis (John, not Duckworth)? I don't remember the last time he did anything for the national team? Then he's brought in and also disrupts the bowling lineup. If he's the best of the rest, I'm sorry for English talent.
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Poor Old Edgar Derby wrote: sunny wrote: "Aggers, yesterday, when Powar was catching Bopara, one could clearly see Collingwood trying his best to block the fielder"
Honestly Poor Old Edgar Derby there were incidents involving that immature Sreesanth and that is it. When you mention Zaheer kicking the ball was in disgust at indian fielders. Were you not listening Sky TV commentators?
Collingwood did block; i dont know if it was intentional or not; if it was intentional(only he knows it) then it deserves condemnation.
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To walk or not walk is the players discretion. If they walk it augers well for the game and it puts the game as a game.
And if not so be it. Afterall the players play for themselves and the big pay cheque. I dont know why people are batting one way or another with respect to people playing sports.
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to say that test cricket is more important than odi cricket and then say that some english people overstate the case for test cricket is not a contradiction. I've heard English people say that test cricket is all important and odi cricket is of little or no value. This unbalanced focus on test cricket has been a factor in the english odi side's poor performance in recent years.
England seem to be waking up now, and acknowledging that odi cricket is also important, if not as important as test cricket.
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I do not hate English cricket nor fans.Bieng a Pakistani,maybe I dislike Indian cricket and Indians, but I dont hate them either, I just dislike them.
However my comment about the English fans for not liking ODI is spot on. When one does not get the grapes,the grapes are either sour or not worth it. I ask my English friends,would you still NOT attach importance to ODI ,if you won tournaments. The fact that they have not won the WC even once and each other country(except SA/NZ) has won it atleast once.This has made the English pessimistic about the ODI. The fact that England have vwon just ODI tournament in last 30 odd years will obviously make them loose interest in the game
I bet my bank balance(US $6212 as of date ) that 80% of the so called test fans,who attach no importance to ODI would suddenly pronounce ODI as most important game, if England won ODI WC by fluke. But till then ODI is not important because its a reason they can fallback on after most of the games are lost.
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My problem with duckworth/lewis is that it makes the game far too complicated, how many times have people gone on about making the game more appealing? Well one way is by having the rules muh simpler to follow.
India go off with four overs remaining, if they can't complete the overs, then England only have that as their maximum.
Target is simply the one India got, and any revision involves the run rate that the scores were achieved at. Now, people will say this is unfair on the side who bat first if the match is rained off with say 20 overs remaining.
Fact is, that this method recalculation will encourage positive batting and create moments of excitement.
One other key thing is that it allows batsmen to play their natural game. In the world cup final Sri Lankan top order batsmen were constantly playing with an 'over the shoulder' approach where they were watching the weather and thinking of D/L score should they lose wickets.
This gives the side bowling second an unfair advantage, end of the day even the greatest batsmen in the world can lose their wicket if they are having to think about how that loss will increase the score required for their team.
Also, look back to southampton, when India had a score that was way beyond them, the stands began to empty. With D/L if you lose four wickets and still have 200 to acquire, same problem can arise, people simply leaving the game, safe in the knowledge that it can't be won by those batting second.
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Agarkar is a burden to watch. As an Indian,whenever I see him in the Indian lineup,I get the feeling India is playing with 10 players and opposition with 12 players. He gives away so many runs ,it feels as if the he is batting for opposition. Even when he takes wickets( once in 10 matches),it gives the impression ,the batsman got out because he was too greedy for more boundaries and ppaid the price for it,rather then get out to wicket taking ball.And when Agarkar goes out to bat,the less said the better.To call Agarkar an allrounder is like calling George Bush as Mahatma Gandhi.
On an average,Agarkar gives approx 55-60 runs per match and takes 1 wicket oftop 5 batsman and 1 wicket of lower order.If Agarkar is dropped from team and Yuvraj,Tendulkar,Dravid,Ganguly and even Dhoni combine to bowl the 10 over alloted to Agarkar,we may still be in with a chance, that all these wont give away 60 runs and take a wicket or maybe even two.
Ideally I would like to see Ganguly,Sachin and Yuvraj bowl 14-15 overs between them.In place of Agarkar take Rohit sharma who can bat very well and bowl a bit offspin. The rest of 5-6 overs can be shared between Dravid,Rohit Sharma ,even Dhoni ( I daresay) even Karthik or Uthhapa. The rest 30 between Zaheer,Piyush,Powar.
The Indian team should enter the next matches as following team batting in following order.
Tendulkar
Ganguly
Dhoni/Dravid(depending on situation)
Yuvraj
Dravid/Dhoni
Rohit Sharma
Uthhapa/Karthick
Zaheer
Powar
Chawla
Atleast perhaps there is a chance one extra batsman might score the overall runs given by the parttime bowlers,but agarkar definetly gives away 55 odd runs and scores 5 odd runs.
I know there is only one fast bowler in my team ,but lets accept it that only one Indian fast bowler always bowls well in one match, and others hardly contribute.
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Those of you suggesting D/L system is useless and a more better way was to deduct number of runs scored in last 5 overs,I have a question.
Example: If England was 220/3 and Flintoff and KP bat to their potential and take the score to 290 in next 5 overs. Then if it rains and the target is reduced for opposition to 45 overs.Do you mean to say the extraordinary batting that took England from 220 to 290 (70 runs 30 balls) would be cancelled out. Would it be fair????Sometimes the difference of margin between two teams in the runs scored by a batsman in an over or two.
There is no 100% method by which we can be fair to both teams if rain interrupts.
Besides D/L is rule applicable to both.Every team in the world has faced the boon as well as curse of D/L at some point of time.Its just one of the thnigs not fully in control of a human.
Even in real life, it sometimes happens that may people dont work 50% of time but are noticed by a superior only during the other 50% time when they work. sone unlucky ones work 80% of time and relax 20% of time but their luck is such a a superior always notices them during that period, and gets impression he is no good worker.
I use yahoo messnger despite my office laws banning it and have done so succesfully for years ,partly due to preacaution, but mostly due to luck.On other hand my friend ,who used to warn me of risk of getting fired for using yahoo and who himself did not use it for the intial year finally got caught on the second day he downloaded the messnger and that to by the Project manager who visits that part of the office once in 3-4 weeks.My friend downloaded the messnger because he saw for 2 years I had no problem and his work area was one where PM hardly visits.
So sometimes things go our way and sometimes they dont but the effort should always be there.;) even if it is chatting;).
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THE UMPIRING HAS BEEN POOR ALL SUMMER AND MANY TIMES IN THE YEARS GONE BY.YES—YES—WE ARE HUMAN AFTER ALL.SO WHY HAVE THE LATEST LASER TECHNOLOGY INSTEAD OF THE BUTCHER’S KNIFE IN OPERATIONS OR JET AGE PRECISION LANDING INSTEAD OF WORLD WAR ONE FOKKER FRIENDSHIP ?
LET THE GAME BECOME SLIGHTLY SLOW BUT FOR HEAVEN’S SAKE LETS HAVE JUSTICE !
PLEASE-- PLEASE BRING IN THE HAWKE EYE AND THE SNICK-O-METER.
LET’S SPARE THE UMPIRES THE BLUSHES .IT’S BETTER TO REFER TO THE TV UMPIRE THAN APPEAR TO BE A FOOL.
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Enjoyed the tour so far.
One thing to note is that so far, most of the players have contributed with either bat/ball in tests or one of the ODIs and there is no player or 2 dominating every match, which brings in a bit of unpredictability and with it, excitment !!
However, being an Indian fan, I dig my face under cover everytime ball flyes high! This has to be by far our worst feilding display. It feels as if Indian team plans taking 15 wickets to end up with 7-8. I guess thats why english team is yet to be dismissed in this series. This team would end up owing BBCI some money if they put a cash penulty on dropped catches and misfields (it will help them attract few more players from ICL with that money I guess)!
I dread the thrashing that we may get from Aussies this winter with such display! Hopefully things will improve in next 2 matches and we would be save from more embaressment.
Prior and Bell have put their bat to good use instead of their mouths and the results show. Though, Prior has got lucky so far with 4-5 chances dropped, but I still don't understand how he gets his place ahead of Reed or Jones (or Nixon for that matter!).
KP is such a pleasure to watch when in full flow! he reminds me of the aura of dominance that once Sachin had. Such players should be treasured and backed as they keep opposition think tank busy forming strategies, which at times gives some break to lesser mortals like Bopara or Broad.
Panesar has been disappointing so far and understandably so, in front of the left handers like Ganguly and Yuvi, he need to learn quickly before SL tour as the left handed mauler (Jayasuriya) would be licking his lips!
Here is some wishful thinking from a India fan for next couple of games.. KP & Sachin get tons in less than a ball, India ends up winning the series :-)
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mark wrote: "England seem to be waking up now, and acknowledging that odi cricket is also important, if not as important as test cricket"
The awakening is down to the change in the English team management. The most important factor being that they got rid of Vaughan. Who was a lame-duck captain and held the team back. We were never going to get anywhere with him in the team. I don't blame Vaughan though. It was the fault of the selectors who gave him the captain's job before he was even established in the team.
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India need to drop Agarkar - RP Singh is 100 times better. He is more consistent. I could bowl better that agit agarkar if given the chance - he has no consistency, and his 4 wickets the other day were chance - the batsmen got themselves out.
Anothe rpoint - Dravid should be fielding at slip - the rest cant catch. He should also be batting at 3.
My services are available if needed otherwise i shall be at the Oval srutinising the game. Boy did they make a meal of there victiry at leeds.
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Complain about this commentFrom this series and taking into consideration that Flintoff is now injured, this would be my ideal 11.
1. Ganguly
2. Tendulkar
3. Bell
4. Yuvraj Singh
5. Rahul Dravid
6. Paul Collingwood
7. Dhoni
8. Broad
9. Khan
10. Powar
11. Anderson
I suppose it seems harsh to leave Pieterson out but i am basing this on the form of this serie.
neil
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This series overall tests and one dayers have proved India does not need any coach. Even with a coach I dont see the series scorecard improving. Its only that on a given day if India wants to win they win... nothing to do with the coach. Especially when you have a host of senior players in dressing room.
Instead they can use the salary of the coach to improve fielding standards and outfields in the country which will help the budding players.
I think they need a good coach for the "A" team instead of senior team. NOt that "A" team is doing bad but emerging players will get the right tonic before international exposure.
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Jonathan Agnew ,
You are complaining of one decesion with regard Yuvraj but if you think how many decision went wrong in Test matchs and ODDI against India ant that is why Englend is ahead in IODI. Look at the decision english empire made at the crusial time of last IODI. 1. Flintoff got the LBW when it wasnot and Chawala did not get the decesion LBW pulmb.. What do you think when little master was given out at 99 when he was not out. It realy hurts...KP was given out when he was not out but some how England managed to changed the decison.
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people need to back off agarkar....admittedly hes inconsistant but between 2005 and 2007 he was our best ODI bowler...fact. You dent get 290 odd wickets at an average of 27 without having some talent. whenever the indian team loses, hes the one who is dropped, how do you expect a man to get confidence and consistency unless faith is shown and he isnt culled and blamed for batting weaknesses. are you guys forgetting that he almost single handedly got india back into the game when we had posted a measly 212 at old trafford. it doesnt matter how, but he does get wickets, his record proves that. and compared to the rest of the bowlers hes a bloody good fielder...cant remember when he last dropped a catch before the one at headingley. and its not like no one else dropped anything. he could have had bell first ball if ganguly had held onto a regulation snick so you cant blame his head dropping. and as for all rounder....hes never called himself that...hes been branded that. hes useful down the order...fastest indian to fifty, test match centurion etc...hes no kallis but hes a darnsight better than munaf or rp or powar for that matter with the bat. Give the guy a break, hes done a good job all his career.
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It's easier to chase 140 off 20 overs than it is to chase 350 off 50.
This has to be considered while reducing the number of overs remaining. The numbers almost never look fair on the chasing team but anybody with sufficient knowledge would agree it isn't that bad either.
If you think the D/L method's bad, consider the predecessor which docked 3 overs and 1 run in an Indian run chase against Australia in the '92 WC, or even better, do you remember 22 runs required off 1 ball when SA seemed to be cruising to a victory?
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England will never be one day "kings" unless the cricket education is chnaged at grass roots level.
Learn to smash the ball first then how to play more "classic strokes".
Nick
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Although Flintoff and Bopara are injured, I think that england have the depth in personnel. And the win here for India has certainly kept this series alive. Just what cricket needed - a closely fought series.
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A bowler is only as good as his fielders. People are criticizing Agarkar as if he lost the game for India. He was terribly unlucky when the MoM hero Sourav Ganguly dropped an easy chance at slip when Bell was on 0. No wonder he was the one who punished Agarkar and added insult to injury.
You can have Glenn McGrath in ur team but with our fielders he will be made to look ridiculously poor. A bowler can only create chances and its upto the fielders to grab them. In a high scoring contest wickets are very important and that is the only thing that can slow down the RR.
And about the umpiring, well its 3-1 to England still. So there is no reason to complain. They cant even complain if it becomes 3-3 at the end of the series and India wins 4-3. Because India had 3 poor decisions and England had 3 poor decisions and it has in fact evened out as they say.
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I cannot understand why Kevin Petersn seems to get out by a careless shot early in his innings often when England need him to get his head down and concentrate on building a partnership.Do I detect an air of arrogance if so he must be a nightmare to captain, although I have no idea how he is with hie culleagues in the dressing room
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