Sad decline of legendary Windies
West Indies duly confirmed their lowly status - only marginally better than Bangladesh and Zimbabwe - by collapsing feebly at the Riverside to lose the series 3-0.
As Sir Viv Richards vented his frustrations in the commentary box, one could only sympathise with his anger: the demise of his once great team is a tragedy.
Only Shivnarine Chanderpaul, whose determined batting made England work hard for their success throughout the series, Dwayne Bravo, Fidel Edwards and Denesh Ramdin showed character.
The others, frankly, did not look as if they fancied the battle.
Fielding is an area that can always be improved through hard work, and a team's standard of fielding is often an accurate barometer of what is taking place on the practice ground.
For a team of athletic individuals, this West Indies team fielded inexcusably badly, dropping catches and regularly letting balls through their legs.
Until there is a serious change of attitude, and players are chosen that are capable of representing their team with pride and character, there seems to be no end to the misery currently endured by the fans of the West Indies.
The most pleasing aspects of this series from England's perspective have been the continued success of Monty Panesar, and the return to form of Steve Harmison.
Panesar enjoyed a remarkable run, taking 23 wickets in the series and giving Michael Vaughan both control and penetration. His presence is crucial in a four man attack, and his 5-46 in the second innings was his sixth five- wicket haul in only 17 Tests.
Harmison took only two wickets on the final afternoon, but his spell after lunch was his best for England for as long as I can remember - certainly since well before the Ashes.
He had rhythm and control, and simply cruised into bowl without any apparent effort. Let's all hope that he bowls enough overs for Durham between now and the first Test against India to retain this form.
It was a shame that the series produced such a poor overall standard of cricket. Maybe it is just that everyone involved is jaded after such a long winter, but whatever the reason, the paying customer cannot be expected to stump up £40 per ticket for long if the quality fails to improve.
At least India, with their powerful batting line up, should present a more attractive proposition after the forthcoming break of a month for the one-day internationals.
C'mon Aggers
Sure the Windies are poor but credit to England who are a very good test team.
Sidebottom and Prior have turned out to be inspired picks-the batting bar Strauss is very strong.
Panesar is developing into a world class spin bowler backed up by the dependable Hoggard.
I'd like to see Tremlett and Davies of Durham included in the next squads as thes two ar ein good form.
India will be a stiffer test but England are a good test team and will fancy their chances.
Complain about this postMonty was terrirfic today. I wish to see him trouble Indian batsmen with his bounce.
Pattabiraman
Complain about this postIndia
Monty is the MANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
Complain about this postGood analysis.
And good to see a few words of praise from Agger's mouth for Monty (he's obviously done something right then)
Weldone to team England. They should expect stronger challenge from India. Cant wait!
Gav
Complain about this postAs an avid England fan, this victory has given me no pleasure whatsoever because it just too sad for words to see the West Indies in such a shambolic state. Viv and co are understandably upset but this simply was not a competition. Perhaps the Windies need a break from international cricket to get their game in order and earn the respect of the world once again.
Complain about this postcompletely agree, although i fear for the windies future! most of the batsman aren't county standard and the continued reliance on chanderpaul is not acceptable. gayle failed to help as a senior batsman and the bowlers lack pure quality (edwards and bravo apart). also, a spinner who can bowl consistently would be a good proposition, it seems though that it is politics and not ability that affects selection. edwards and samuels are good players and lets hope the whole quality from both sides improves for the odi series.
but well done to england, we know how to win now and that is a good thing to build on. i hope both teams up the ante. and we have proved there is life without freddie.
Complain about this postPoor West Indies. It must be so hard to watch for people like Viv Richards, Michael Holdiong et al to watch. A once great cricket nation struggling to hold its own amongst the make weights like Bangladesh. Lets hope the views of those old greats are listened to and the Windies can find some puff again soon!
Complain about this post
Complain about this postJonathan, I think Bangladesh is a better team than the Windians, that is how low they are.......Ask Crofty, although Lara tried hard with the team Crofty and Holding never gave him any credit.............
WI teams have been suffering for a decade and a half now, no end in sight, the youth policy after Hooper, Adams, Dillon, Campbell period have not worked and was a disastrous policy.
Men play cricket, not boys, until these boys become men, no ''sabe'' .
Selectorial policies are non-exsistent. Recycling failures guarantees failure.
How can failures like Ganga, Samuels, Gayle, Joseph, Smith be on a team continuously?
Many, many others could have been given a place, take Ganga, 45 Tests, four other openers could have been given a chance in that time.
Complain about this postWell done England...can't wait for the series against India to start. They will probably give England a better challenge and we can actually see how good or bad a side we are ( forgetting the previous Ashes series).
I really want to see how well Monty does against India. It would give a great indication as to how good a spinner he is.
Complain about this postHaving sat through the late eighties and early to mid nineties and watched us regularly turned over by the Windies it's nice to see the shoe on the other foot, although but miffed that they were seen as a great team when stuffing a poor England team, but we are not a great team when stuffing a poor Windies team?
Ok, we lost badly to the Aussies, but who doesn't?
Well done to a really strong England team with some really exciting young talent, Cook and Panesar will be the backbone of this team for years to come.
Complain about this postYOU COULD HAVE TAKEN WICKETS AGAINST THIS WEST INDIES TEAM AGGERS.THEY REALLY ARE SHAMEFULLY POOR.UNLIKE THE PREVIOUS BLOGGER,I AWAIT THE TEST SERIES AGAINST INDIA WITH A GREAT DEAL OF APPREHENSION.STRAUSS,VAUGHAN,BELL AND HARMISON HAVE ALL BEEN UNCONVINCING AND WHEREAS THE CAPTAIN IS SURE TO BE RETAINED ,THE OTHER THREE PLACES ARE UP FOR GRABS.
Complain about this postyes but.......so much for England to improve on BEFORE India arrive...
Poor marks
Strauss - simply out of sorts and poor especially in the last innings and should have used the space to get some runs in.
KP - not a great series and needs to think TEAM not headlines
Top marks
Prior - no debate the best all round keeper in England
Collingwood - best English player of the test series by far
Monty - god I love spinners and do we have one
Vaughn - still need time at the crease - but now concentrating on test as opposed to ODI's will only improve
Moores - not a lot choose as yet and the proof will be against similar tier 2 opposition (tier 1 Australia, tier 3 Windies)
should be good stuff
Complain about this postI cannot believe the Windies lost this test match so limply, after so much time was lost to rain and poor light. As always, whenever the wheels come off the Windies, I am reminded of the famous Claude McKay poem below, and the reference to mad dogs seems apt, given our opponents, notwithstanding the absence of the noonday sun:
"If we must die, let it not be like hogs
Hunted and penned in an inglorious spot,
While round us bark the mad and hungry dogs,
Making their mock at our accursed lot.
If we must die, O let us nobly die,
So that our precious blood may not be shed
In vain; then even the monsters we defy
Shall be constrained to honor us though dead!
O kinsmen! we must meet the common foe!
Though far outnumbered let us show us brave,
And for their thousand blows deal one death-blow!
What though before us lies the open grave?
Complain about this postLike men we'll face the murderous, cowardly pack, Pressed to the wall, dying, but fighting back!"
I sadden by the team preformance,no pride players.viv you are my idol,I will will never forget the nights me and my dad spent listen to the legend{viv}
Complain about this postBrilliant England, Monty is such a class act, he is on the path to become a legend. Great to see Straussy back in some form. Aggers, any comment on KPs dissapointing batting? This West Indian bowling attack should have been bread and butter for him.
If Tresco comes back soon (lets hope that he does what a great chap), and finds form then this England team will be complete and in a great position to beat India next month.
Complain about this postFinally, England have managed to get Chanderpaul out again, even if it was only because he had to start taking risks owing to the precarious situation. England owe a big thanks to the magnificent batting of Chanderpaul, for actually making the England bowlers work for the wins; Chanderpaul well deserved a man of the series award. (As, almost certainly, did Monty on the England side, given that Ganga rated him- to the point where the Windies captain said that he had opted to bat first in the 4th test, because he didn't fancy the idea of Monty's spin on the last day.)
As to the 'sad decline of the Windies'; some of the Windies bowling has been inspired at times, (getting Pietersen out for low scores isn't likely to happen many times by accident) so I believe that there IS some hope for the future, if only they could sort out whatever problems are besetting them.
Charles Evans
Complain about this postYes the Windies were poor - in commitment and team spirit... but Bravo, Gayle, Sarwan, Chanderpaul, are all talented world class acts when committed and in form. In their better spells Edwards & Colleymore stand up to international standard in the bowling dept, and at times Ramdin's batting and Morton's application have shown potential then there is Samuels, Best etc ..- these are not county players - the talent is there! Witness Windies vs India one day series last summer. Give them a break.
They were no less embarrassing than England in Australia only a few months back. Windies in form would take Bangladesh to the cleaners!
Complain about this postPoor marks - KP?
Have you conveniently forgot his century at Lords and double century at Headingley? Throw in a useful 60 odd at Old Trafford and I'd have to say that he's been one of our star performers this series. I certainly don't mind him going for headlines and failing once in a while if he scores heavily like he has done the rest of the series!
Complain about this post"KP - not a great series and needs to think TEAM not headlines"
You think that 450+ runs at nearly 70 isn't a great series? With a double ton aswell! Do you think your asking just a little bit too much? I know Pietersen is a world class player with very very high standards but i think anyone would have taken that at the start of the series!
Complain about this postSteve Ross - people like you are never happy… KP poor series.. get your facts right, top of Eng averages, I bet you are just waiting for KP to fail so you can label him the beckham of English cricket. KP has a winners attitude but you would prefer it if we were losing
Runs Average
Complain about this postPietersen 466 66.57
Prior 324 64.8
Vaughan 251 62.5
Collingwood 359 59.83
Cook 398 56.85
Sidebottom 49 49
Bell 227 45.4
Strauss 168 24
well, i don't know if i should say well played england, or you've done it again windies. Although monty was special, the abundance of extras, lack of control, by the bowlers, like plunkett, and the poor form of strauss, the lack of application by KP and ealier harmison still should give some concern to the management of england. the indian batsmen and bowlers would not be as, lack luster and pathetic as the west indian players.
Complain about this postSadly, Harmison won't get to bowl many overs for Durham before the India series because it's nothing but nonsense 20/20 games between now and then.
Of course he may need a hernia operation so he might not be available at the start of the series in any evernt.
Complain about this postI agree Aggers,
But really how much one day cricket can we and the players take? We've had the champions trophy, the series in Australia, the World Cup and now a further month of one day internationals. When can we have a rest, when can the players have a rest/ play 4 day county cricket.
Complain about this postCan we have Test Matches that are truly special?
Yup it is a disaster for cricket as we cannot afford to lose any of the Test-status teams, let alone one like the Windies that has contributed so much to the game. I assumed that the WC, sorry ICCCWC, was about boosting the game in that part of the world. In fact it was about satisfying "stakeholders".
Complain about this postI sense we are entering a phase like that of Packer time in the 70s where something big is going to happen soon and it can only be for the game's good. A player's breakaway? An independent attempt to save the game in certain parts of the world? Bring it on.
I just don't understand what some people are looking for... Pietersen is being apparently lambasted here for an average of 66.57. Bell has also been criticised, for his meagre average of 45.4, with a ton and 50 - if that's him being out of form, I can't wait until he's back in form again. I think not enough has been said about Sidebottom - not necessarily for his bowling, but he has averaged 49 this series with the bat as well. ;-)
Hopefully people can get off Harmison's back as well now, he'll have a good month or so in county cricket and come back ready to skittle the Indians...
...As for Strauss, I can only hope a month in county cricket is enough for him... he's proven previously that he can be world class, but today he looked like, quite frankly, a tail-ender.
Complain about this postDaren Ganga simply HAS to go. Useless performances from him during the series and offered NO guidance to the Windies youngsters what so ever. Pathetic.
Complain about this postWI cricket needs a change from the top.. The board (WICB) and selectors need to go!!! Their differences in picking the ODI captain just goes to show the very sad state of cricket in the Caribbean... These muppets that run the game needs to move on and let someone else have a go.. As a fan of WI cricket I am tired of the lack of fight in the team. The team is ranked low... And the players we have now wont get into any County teams....
Complain about this postI am a little concerned over the commentators view on the West Indies. Yes, we should enjoy England's emphatic series win but I think we (Team England) should not put ourselves in a position where we are judging the decline of the West Indies. We are not consistently good enough and should remember our own shortcomings during the decades they gave us a good thrashing. Comments such as 'not good spectator value for money' are not appropriate, several years back we were in the relegation zone with Zimbabwe...remember.
Humility is the key. Take the rough with the smooth.Well done England.
Complain about this postHow is it that the player who 99% of the time is our top batsman always gets slatted by somebody. History will one day show that a certain KP Pietersen was a top class Batsman who not only scored runs but entertained we won't remember the occassional poor shot because in the overall scheme of things there are not that many of them.
Complain about this postWith Monty bowling so well in these conditions could England use a four man attack when Flintoff gets back with him batting at seven and then Prior at eight. Would scare most bowling attacks a bit.
Complain about this postI'm not sure that West Indies ARE any better than Bango or Zim. They haven't won a test match, let alone a series, outside the Carribean since 2000. Empty grounds and a lack of sponsors will soon be the norm for Windies games around the world. The West Indies players (mostly) don't seem to give a toss about their cricket, so why should the cricket going public? I've always been against two-tier test cricket, but surely we can't be far away now on this showing. England were nothing better than mediocre, but it was only the weather that prevented it being 4-0. Series verdict: absolute rubbish!
Complain about this postSteve Ross- your standards are obviously ludicrously high calling KP's series "not great"- did he not get a massive double hundred at Headingly (his career best), a further big hundred at Lords and a 68 at OT? In fact, I think he probably top-scored for England in the whole series! and you cannot call his flamboyant batting style simply "looking for headlines". At last we have a batsman that takes the attack to the opposition no matter who the bowler is, and you accuse him of not being a team player? Yes he gets out to a few loose shots now and then but frankly, that is just an unfortunate byproduct of being an aggresive player, and when you get over 400 runs in a series I think you can be excused that!
Complain about this postAggers, when you say "For a team of athletic individuals, this West Indies team fielded inexcusably badly ... "
Arent all the international sides practically teams of athletic individuals?
Complain about this postI for one am glad that England have shown up this shambles of a West Indies side and feel no sympathy whatsoever for the West Indies.
To see what they have done to countless other teams happen to them is joy personified. It's been on the cards for a number of years.
Good luck to Dwayne Bravo though - a genuine all-round talent. I hope he avoids a fate similar to Andy Flower's - being the lone world class player in a poor side.
Complain about this postPerhaps the poor cricket should have been expected - at least from a West Indies point of view.
After all, this series should never have happened. ot only was this series not on their schedule, but they (the West Indies) were coming straight into a test series with no practice matches and the conditions were a whole lot different that what they were accustomes to in the West indies.
The Engliish county season was well underway and the English players already had competitive matches under their belts when the teat series started.
Now, I know that this sounds like a broken record and sour grapes, but West Indies should have won the last test..were it not for 2 terrible decisions - the most blatant was when Messers. Cook was given not out in what was clearly a catch about 4-5 inches off the ground (by Ramdin). This was before he was in double figures in the 2nd innings. Take that away and West Indies would have had to make about 100 less runs to win.
As for this team being so poor, I disagree. It will take time, but West Indies is finally in transition and with Lara finaly gone, players will begin to step it up. Shiv has a few good years left, but Samuels, Bravo, Sarwan and some of the other fellas give us hope for the future. A couple more series and some maturity and this West Indies team will be a heck of a lot better.
With all due respect to Messrs Richards, Holding, et al, they have to stop expecting everyone who plays for the West Indies to be in their class. I love the West Indies during their time, but they have to give these guys a break.
The West Indies will be in transition for at least 2 years and they will win some and lose more often, but they will get better and I think that in 2 - 3 years time, we'll all be talking about a different West Indies team.
Finally, a word about the English team. You all got lucky this time, given that the West Indies were unprepared for this series and I am sure that Monty is a good bowled under the English conditions, but playing overseas in different conditions is another matter. He (Monty) reminds me of Underwood. I'll take my hat off to England when they duplicate their performance against Sri Lanka, India, Australia, South Africa or New Zealand.
Complain about this postI for one am glad that England have shown up this shambles of a West Indies side and feel no sympathy whatsoever for the West Indies.
To see what they have done to countless other teams happen to them is joy personified. It's been on the cards for a number of years.
Good luck to Dwayne Bravo though - a genuine all-round talent. I hope he avoids a fate similar to Andy Flower's - being the lone world class player in a poor side.
Complain about this postYou can only beat what's in front of you and England have done it comfortably but we cannot afford to be so slipshod agaisnt India.
The batting's been pretty good with the exception of poor Strauss but the long term flaws haven't disappeared. Bell's shot selection when set remains poor, Collingwood is vulnerable to the short stuff and Vaughan still gets out after pretty starts.
Prior's batted beautifully and kept fairly well but he's still obviously a batter who keeps. He has to work really hard on his keeping or he could be another Geraint Jones not another Alec Stewart.
The bowling has been a mixed bag to say the least. Monty was superb especially when he really worked at the batsmen rather than wating for rough to do the job. Sidebottom did a solid county seamers job which is what he is, nothing wrong with that but he's no world beater. Hoggy did what he always does, the man's a star. Harmison and Plunkett were atrocious, glad Plunkett's back at Durham, he may have a future if he learns how to bowl. Wish Harmison were with him as I can't see anyting but a past for the sulky one.
Even without firing on all cylinders we're still favourites against India; their batting's packed with talent but is ageing, their bowling looks relatively weak particularly as Kumble is about half the bowler away that he is on the sub-continent. Add that they're under huge pressure to perform and riven with political strife and we should be OK but they are a deal more professional than the West Indies so England can't play the sort of brainless cricket they have at times this summer.
I realise that all sounds very negative but remember England's defeat in the winter was far bigger than that they've just inflicted on the second worst side in the world.
Complain about this postI think it's time to put the debate about the "poor Windies" to bed. There is nothing left to be said.
If Aggers & Co. are so concerned about the decline of the Windies, then maybe it is time to reconsider the decision not to allow the West Indies players to be a part of the English county scene.
Remember, when the Windies was riding on top, most of the players played county cricket. Is it just coincidence that the decline in West Indies cricket started when the players were restricted from county cricket?
Complain about this postJOSH,HARMISON WILL BE NO LOSS TO THIS ENGLAND TEAM,SO IT MATTERS LITTLE WHETHER OR NOT HE GETS MUCH BOWLING IN BEFORE THE SERIES AGAINST INDIA.TRY LOOKING AT HIS STATS AND AVERAGE FOR THE WINDIES TESTS.ITS LESS THAN ADEQUATE.
Complain about this postWell done to the England team. It was great to see Monty continuing to perform superbly in Test cricket, good to see Harmy getting back into the Harmy that is ruthless despite taking some time to achieve so. Plus Vaughan's form and captaincy have been great and so far it looks like England have found a reliable wicket-keeper who can bat and provide valuable runs for England.
Howvever I am very sad with the West Indies. Apart from Chanderpaul and a couple of other players, their performance was a disaster and the malaise in the West Indian cricket shows no signs of having been dealt with. Maybe it's time for the likes of Sir Viv Richards, Holding, Croft to take over as leaders of the West Indian cricket authorities in order to revive the West Indies. A continuing West Indies' decline would be a great loss for world cricket.
Complain about this postyes, very good summary- i think that without chanderpaul windies would have been in so much trouble, so credit to him for standing up against eng.
Complain about this postWhat is most disturbing from the British side of the Atlantic is that the decline of West Indies cricket over the last 20 years has been so steady. If it was one sudden drop in form, yuou might put it down to a bad generation. But the decline has been steady, really since the heady days of the mid 80s. Even in the early 90s the team, in hindsight at least, was sliding, and they haven't been able to stop the slide.
in fairness to KP, the guy had a great series. Does the guy really have to carry the batting in every innings to avoid criticism? That is totally unfair. To be honest, the only question mark in my mind in England's batting right now is Andrew Strauss. I wonder if perhaps Owais Shah should be given a run in the side against India? I guess the issue would be who opens, but I am sure vaughan could step up, although that leaves the 3 spot, and I am not convinces that position would suit anyone in the current England team.
Complain about this postEnough rubbish about K.P.'s attitude the man is a team player.
Complain about this postJust check his body language when Broad hit the winning runs in the world cup and Vaughn got a come back centuary this doe'nt look like selfish man
Maybe now England know how Australia feel when it comes to no competition.
C'mon, England are the 2nd best test team in the world apparently, and some of their play over this series has been shocking.
3-0 is a fair reflection, but only because the Windies were so dire.
Complain about this postHere's a wonderful opportunity to be English. We have to now start saying that it's unfortunate that the Windies are not strong at the moment, and as a result we can't take any great pleasure in the series victory. We can then agree with (was it) Ian Bishop who on the tv was saying that it has been suggested in the Carribean that WI withdraw from test matches until they get their cricket board organised, and improve their standard again.
I remember them being similarly concerned during the "blackwash" gloating era, when it was England who couldn't even get a draw. Perhaps we should have said then that it wasn't fair, and we weren't playing any more.
Complain about this postThe series has been so one-sided that were one to pick a joint XI, the only representatives for WI would be Chanderpaul and maybe Bravo; The rest would struggle to hold down a place in a county side. Gayle and Morton just looked as though they were playing 2020 every time they batted, Ganga has no idea as a captain and Collymore and Taylor's fielding... well...
I feel sorry for such a talented youngster like Bravo though, I think I read somewhere that in his 20 odd tests he has never experienced winning?
Complain about this postPoster 13 wrote '...KP - not a great series and needs to think TEAM not headlines...'
What does the man have to do? a double ton and a couple of other good knocks and tops the averages yet again, would have been even better average had he not been playing for the team in the last match and been not out instead of losing his wicket hammering quick runs.
It seems whatever KP does, people criticise him on this forum. It's absolutely ridiculous, he's been our best batsmen in Test and ODI in pratically each series since he came into the team. The opposition always treat is as the most valued wicket.
History will prove that he's a world class player.
Back on topic, the Indian team will prove a tougher nut to crack, certainly their batsmen are a class above the W Indies, Chanderpaul excepted.
And why is it always building for the Ashes in 2009?? There's plenty of test cricket to be played before then, each series is important, and we need to start winning some away series again.
Complain about this post'Ere we go 'Ere we go.... usual tosh about how the England team hardly won this match blah blah blah... If the Aussies had come and won it everyone would be saying what a class act they are. Nobody seems to mind if they beat for example a 'weakened England team' (Ashes 2006-7).
Top marks to Vaughan for superb tactics with a the weakened ('threadbare' I think Angus Fraser described it) bowling attack which people have been howling about over the past few days; Vaughan's captaincy is artful and inspirational and I'm so glad he was in at the kill: the perfect riposte to the selectors. TOP CLASS A1 SUPERFINE IS PERMANENT. Let's hope he hones his astuteness to an even sharper level for the test series against India.
KP will recover: he said he's never afraid of losing so he'll bounce back. Strauss is also a class act but worn out - please please please give him time out - not to be axed but rested.
Hoggard - excellent, Panesar - magic, Harmison - getting back on track very well.
Also top marks to all those excellent WI players: Fidel Edwards, Chanderpaul, Sammy and not a few others who did come to the party.
Go England!
Complain about this postI cant believe how many people believe that strauss was great and good to see him in the runs again. Fact - hes only had two good series when he played his first against New Zealand and then in Sourh Africa but other than that hes been rubbish. Cant wait for the Indian team to come to england and roll him over everytime so maybe we can finally make some progress with a young talented player. Im sure whoever comes into the team can average more than 24 against the west indies
Complain about this postIt is painful for me as a West Indian cricket fan to endure the inept performances of our team over these years. One can venture a dissertation on the state of West Indies cricket and ways to improve it, but there are obvious shortcomings in the mental and cricketing abilities of our players.
How else can one explain how Shiv Chanderpaul can occupy the crease for over sixteen hours in the three test matches that he played and yet there were few productive partnerships.
A typical example was today when Dwayne Bravo played this atrocious short to Panesar when all West Indies needed was occupation of the crease. "Bat, bat, bat..." according to Fidel Edwards. I can sight numerous other examples of indiscretions like these during the just concluded series.
Players like Chris Gayle, Marlon Samuel, Devon Smith, Corey Collymore, Darren Powell and Darren Ganga all lack the mental fortitude to excel in test cricket.
The game of cricket has progressed to a scientific age where analysis of the opposition, strict adherence to the game plan, the use of psychology, rigid discipline and efficient execution are the order of the day. Our cricketers are still in the calypso mind set where entertainment reigns. No sense of history. No sense of purpose. A total absence of West Indian pride. In short, they are a bunch of jokers.
Complain about this postUnless our crop of selectors can place a greater weighting on the mental fortitude of our players we will be dancing to calypsoes for a very long time.
I do think Monty, good as he is, needs to develop an arm ball like Underwood. Given that Monty is a pretty tall guy, I'm sure he could whip one in almost medium pace if he wanted to! Am sure that would reap rewards, especially with a dash of spin on it...
India will be a good test to see how far Monty has progressed.
M.
Complain about this postWell done David Brennan in crediting England. Throughout the 1980s when we lost heavily to the Windies the media focused on our inadequacies. Now through 2000, 2004 and 2007 we have categorically thrashed the Windies the focus is on their weakness. England can't win here - please, for once BBC, try to give credit to England rather than undermine our victory as you usually do. We're the 2nd best team in the world, we've won in the Caribbean, South Africa, Sri Lanka & Pakistan since the turn of the century, and even beaten the phenomenal Aussies in England. Lets stop knocking Harmison, Vaughan and co, and appreciate our rise to the upper levels of Test cricket.
Complain about this postEngland have shown they are second only to Australia despite significant injuries.
Complain about this postIndia will prove a sterner test.
Having seen the great Windies teams thrash us in the past it is ironic that all we needed was a dithering and devisive Windies board to demoralise and ruin it's own team.
The windies have a lot of talented individuals but no cohesion they require a new'Clive Lloyd' to inspire and revive them.I don't think thats Sarwan and it's definately not Daren Ganga.
Could somebody please tell me why Ian Bell gets so much stick? He always appears to the first name mentioned by nearly everyone when somebody needs to be dropped despite the fact that he's probably been England's most successful number 6 for years.
If there's ever an injury crisis at the top of the order he opens (as he did in India) or bat 3 (as he did in Australia) due to Trescothick and Vaughan's problems. He gets bounced up and down the order so much with little time to settle into a fixed role in the side and amazingly still has an average of about 44.
Add that to the fact that he's only 25 and a very useful fielder (hellish at short leg) I think its about time people and especially England realised that he's certainly one of our brightest hopes for the future and set about fitting him into a nucleus of a side involving Cook, Pietersen, Panesar etc. that will form our future team.
Complain about this postEveryone who laments the passing or demise of a cricket 'nation' should remember that the West Indies team is made up of players from accross the Caribbean. As a result, the politics involved in selection are huge. You also need to take into account the cultrural and sociological problems in the Caribbean before being able to give a one size fits all solution.
Life might be very different if Trinidad & Tobago or Antigua were able to compete on their own.
Each country is very individual and in the last twenty years or so, the nature of each country has grown and has developed it's own unique identity. Countries such as Jamaica and T&T are able to compete on a world stage in football but I wonder if it would ever be possible with cricket.
Complain about this postDear English Sports Fans,
I dont want to take anything away from your sweet tatste of victory. Lord knows these moments are few and far between. Savor it, until (alas) the Indian team comes to kick some serious butt... then you will recognize the English bowling for what it really is - a bunch of pansies trying to hit the batsmen with pollen dust. Finally, it must be hard to be a WI cricket fan - when the team plays worse than eleven 60 year old nuns with cataract and severe arthritis.
Dr. Gary Guha
Complain about this postMemphis, TN.
I don't believe some of the comments here. "I feel sorry for WI", "What a shame about the WI" etc.
People are quite happy to rip England team to shreds if they perform below par. No one ever says £What a shame England"
England played well throughout, with someone always stepping up to the mark when it was needed. Nearly everyone contributed to this series win. Well done lads.
It wasn't so long ago we were thinking that WI were ruining cricket with a 'boring diet of fast bowling' and that the art of spin was all but lost. Words fail me.
Complain about this postWhy was it that the England bowlers could not get Shivnarine Chanderpaul out? Why was the Shiv factor not spread more generously through the side? The old cliche that you can only beat the opposition that is up against you at the present is perfectly true. However, it is difficult to see what strength England can derive from a victory such as this. Cracks were papered over, but apart from Monty Panesar, can any careers claim to have been enhanced? Before we get carried away, better bring on the Indians to give us a sterner and more realistic test.
Complain about this postDwayne Bravo is not the only world class player in the West Indian side. There is Shiv and Gayle also, and Taylor has a lot of ability. West Indies need leadership.
Complain about this postMonty fantastic, quality spinner. I feel sorry for chanderpaul who must be angry and frustrated at the lack on support from his team mates.
Complain about this postMonty fantastic, quality spinner. I feel sorry for chanderpaul who must be angry and frustrated at the lack on support from his team mates.
Complain about this postCongrats to England on beating an under-prepared WI team. Apart from the perennial batting collapses, the WI fielding needs to improve. Catches win matches! When so many catches are put down,what more can the bowlers do?
Complain about this postLet's look forward to how England performs with stronger team, India.Englan fans, please don't count your chicks until they are hatched!
Weird as it seems, but it almost makes you pine for the late 70's 80's and early 90's to see the current England go up against Sir Viv, Lloyd, Kalicharan, Croft, Holding el al and then Marshall, Garner, Hooper, Greenidge and later Curtley and Courtney and still Viv!
We used to curse them as they would demolish us with ball and bat, but you can't help thinking that a full-on Windies is best for England and world cricket.
Bad for Viv, but it must be even worse for their brilliant fans....
Complain about this postCome on Aggers, you're having a laugh - "the return to form of Harmison"!! 16 wickets in 4 tests against a truly awful batting line-up!! I couldn't imagine Glen McGrath for example being happy with such a poor haul. The reason Harmison gets so many chances is down to you and your colleagues in the media.
PS I am a Durham fan but as an England supporter feel that Harmison has had more than enough chances in the team.
Complain about this postThe West Indes' woes will not end until the WICB and Selectors do the right thing and pick players that merit selection.
Complain about this postA case in point: Everyone involve in cricket knows that Darren Ganga cannot make the West Indies team, and for the Board and Selectors to chose him as vice-captain for the England tour, was sowing seeds of discontention among the players.
From my distance, one realises that Chris Gayle was not pleased that Ganga was named vice-captain and the outburst he made, when a curfew was imposed on teh players, was out of frustration since he felt he should have been namedvice-captain instead.
There is also the element of race and one has to look closely at who the Board is putting in charge of the WEst Indies and the powers thay are given.
Make no mistake, there has always been plans afoot to make us as West Indian people humble.
Selecting white foreginers to lead our team is all part of the plan to destroy West Indies cricket and the people of the region.
We are the only cricket team in the world with a minority population; since the peoples of the Caribbean came from other parts of the world. With our history before us, we must now learn to draw from it to ensure our cricket survives.
If corrective measuers are not done in the areas of team selection and who we select as coach, then we are doomed to failure and teh white world would have once again conquered the region.
The West Indes' woes will not end until the WICB and Selectors do the right thing and pick players that merit selection.
Complain about this postA case in point: Everyone involve in cricket knows that Darren Ganga cannot make the West Indies team, and for the Board and Selectors to chose him as vice-captain for the England tour, was sowing seeds of discontention among the players.
From my distance, one realises that Chris Gayle was not pleased that Ganga was named vice-captain and the outburst he made, when a curfew was imposed on teh players, was out of frustration since he felt he should have been named vice-captain instead.
There is also the element of race and one has to look closely at who the Board is putting in charge of the WEst Indies and the powers thay are given.
Make no mistake, there has always been plans afoot to make us as West Indian people humble.
Selecting white foreginers to lead our team is all part of the plan to destroy West Indies cricket and the people of the region.
We are the only cricket team in the world with a minority population; since the peoples of the Caribbean came from other parts of the world. With our history before us, we must now learn to draw from it to ensure our cricket survives.
If corrective measuers are not done in the areas of team selection and who we select as coach, then we are doomed to failure and teh white world would have once again conquered the region.
England marks out of 10 for series:
Strauss 5
Cook 8
Vaughan 8
Pieterson 8
Collingwood 8
Bell 7
Prior 8
Harmison 6
Hoggard 7
Sidebottom 8
Monty 8
Plunkett 3
On the whole a good team performance with nobody head and shoulders above anyone else but a number of individual match winning performances. Solid stuff against a weaker side, but job well done.
Complain about this postDecent England Win but Strauss needs to workout in his game in County cricket, Vaughan and Cook to open, Pieterson at three (ggod enough to play anywhere) and Ramprakash at 4. Lets get a couple of good years from County Crickets Best player. WIth Collingwood, Bell, Prior. Flintoff, Harmisson, Pansear and Hoggard as the ine-up we can beat the Aussies.
Quick Question though - could any of these top six coped on uncovered pitches - Hoobs, Sutcliff, Barrington and Compton any day !!!
Complain about this postI have to agree with Sir Viv about the lack of fight? preparation? discipline? whatever...shown by several of the current Windies team. Richards didn't have names, but he clearly wants to boot some of the side (maybe half the touring party) off the bus and make them walk home. It is an absolute catastrophe for test cricket when the West Indies can be so poor at fundamentals and soundly thrashed. I shudder to think how badly they'd have been beaten without Chanderpaul, a world-class batsman with ice-water in his veins, carrying the side.
I agree 100% with A. Crowther. I'm a Brit, and I want to see England win. But as a cricket fan, I'm very sad to see how easily the Windies were handled. The nadir was the appalling loss at Leeds which was painful to watch. As little as I want to see any team playing in Zimbabwe, maybe the WI need to go and play someone they can have a proper competition against. Give their guys a chance to be on the front-foot putting the other team under pressure, instead of struggling to avoid embarrassing defeat.
Complain about this postFor a guy who has missed Cricket (seeing and listening to the game) since the glory days of the 70's WI team, the last 2 years of being a WI fan have been really trying.. Every once in a while they show tremendous energy and potential only to fall flat the next day or the next game... I gues this is the time you are called upon to be a real fan...
Chanderpaul, Sammy, Powell, Bravo did well in the series so far, I just hope they can do better in the limited overs games...
The players at the top of the batting order lack discipline and patience...they just need to watch Vaughn, KP and Strauss bat..these guys dig in and fight and do not give up their wickets cheaply... Chris Gayle need to wake up or throw in the towel and the WI team need two real openers...move Gayle down to 5 or 6. He is exciting to watch when he gets going...but that is rare...
Complain about this postI think that's the closest I've seen aggers come to admitting Panesar is a very fine bowler indeed. I've still to hear him just stick his hands up and say "I've been very wrong about him, both before the Ashes and before the 1st Test against the West Indies" though.
But pigs will fly first I think.
Complain about this postFor a guy who has missed Cricket (seeing and listening to the game) since the glory days of the 70's WI team, the last 2 years of being a WI fan have been really trying.. Every once in a while they show tremendous energy and potential only to fall flat the next day or the next game... I gues this is the time you are called upon to be a real fan...
Chanderpaul, Sammy, Powell, Bravo did well in the series so far, I just hope they can do better in the limited overs games...
The players at the top of the batting order lack discipline and patience...they just need to watch Vaughn, KP and Strauss bat..these guys dig in and fight and do not give up their wickets cheaply... Chris Gayle need to wake up or throw in the towel and the WI team need two real openers...move Gayle down to 5 or 6. He is exciting to watch when he gets going...but that is rare...
Complain about this postANYONE WHO IS SATISFIED WITH THE 'IMPROVED' FORM OF STRAUSS AND HARMISON SHOULD WAKE UP.THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM.IN YEARS GONE BY,BOTH OF THEM WOULD HAVE BEEN AXED AFTER THE SECOND TEST,AND RIGHTLY SO.I REMEMBER THE GREAT JOHN SNOW,OUR PREMIER FAST BOWLER, BEING LEFT OUT OF THE SQUAD ALTOGETHER FOR THE ASHES TRIP OF 1974/5.WHY SHOULD A LESSER BOWLER LIKE HARMISON BE TREATED WITH KID GLOVES?BOYCOTT,S CRITICISM OF STRAUSS WAS WHOLLY JUSTIFIED.BOYCOTT HIMSELF WAS DROPPED FROM THE TEST SIDE AFTER MAKING 246 DURING THE PREVIOUS MATCH.RIDICULOUS,AND IT HIGHLIGHTS THE WEAK ARGUMENTS POSTED BY THOSE WHO SUPPORT KEEPING THESE TWO UNDER ACHIEVERS IN THE TEAM.
Complain about this postPlease don't call Monty world class spin bowler as he just cleaned up a consistently impatient WI batting side, when he can repeat against Sa, NZ and Australia..then good he is definitely World Class...
Complain about this postI love to see a poor Aussie team (some hope!) or a poor Pakistani team (guess why!), but the world of cricket just isn't right with a poor Windies. If Bangladesh played to the same standard, there would be further calls (wrong, in my opinion) to rescind their Test status. I'm one of the generation (now mid-forties) of Englishmen brought up to expect from the Windies terrifying bowling (I remember it starting with Andy Roberts) and rapacious batting (I'll never forget Collis King's World Cup winning innings). Chanderpaul, Bravo and Sammy (and, I suppose, Sarwan) make the grade, but that's about it. I feel sorry for all the great Windies players of the 70s, 80s and 90s having to watch their team.
Complain about this postwi very disappointing, but any worse than england in ashes series?
India will give england a bit more competition but still expect england to win test series,though not odi.
For odi, would drop bell and strauss
Sanj
Complain about this post"the paying customer cannot be expected to stump up £40 per ticket for long if the quality fails to improve"
Johnathon, this misses the point. If people are daft enough to pay such ridiculous sums of money, then the ECB will keep charging it.
Fans need to take a leaf out of the West Indian public who voted with their feet at the recent World Cup and din't pay the grossly inflated prices. The organisers soon caved in and down the prices came.
The power of the public in this regard shouldn't be underestimated, but if people keep paying the prices then the prices will stay high. It's the same with any spectator sport.
Complain about this postJonathon, I have an interesting fact to impart. Monty is only the 3rd spinner to clean bowl Chanderpaul in 13 years of test batting. This surely is a indicator of the brilliance of Monty to come. Add Chanderpaul to Tendulkar and many other World Class batsmen. I would be interested to know the other two spinners who clean bowled Chanderpaul. perhaps an article/ blog on this? Baring learning more of his trade from Shane Warne, or the LH Dusar from Murali, Monty is surely approaching the World Class spinner bracket?
Complain about this postthe west indian players have not got the guts to fight. They have their wages guaranteed, win or lose, change the contract, if you win ,you get abonus, when you lose, money is deducted, then and only then will they start to really fight. Again, make them all win a place in the team like they do in atheletics.
Complain about this postThank goodness Jonathan Agnew has aired the matter of value for money in this series.
Because of central contracts the average (wealth-wise) follower cannot now get to see their county's best players and if they do go to a Test they are likely to see the kind of performance that made Sir Vivian so ashamed today
Complain about this postSo the West Indies are currently very poor. What short memories people have! I seem to recall that all teams - even the mighty Australians have been through the doldrums in their time - remember Kim Hughes in tears after one inpet Aussie performance?
Complain about this postI have no doubt the windies will be back, just as I have no doubt we'll wathc an inept England again - don't forget what we saw this winter in Australia!
This probably is the worst West Indian team of the modern era. Chanderpaul and Bravo looked like they are worth persevering with as they showed a good solid technique and required application. The rest, and I am including Chris Gayle at this stage, need to go back to the drawing board, as do the selectors.
I felt that the bowling at times had plenty of fire in it although the fielding let them down at crucial times. I definitely feel that the benefits reaped by the West Indian players of the 1980's with their experience of playing county cricket enabled very talented players to become quality test match cricketers. Sadly, very few, if indeed any of the current crop play regular cricket in England. I realy feel that Edwards and Powell would benefit froom playing county cricket. At the moment they are just not quite good enough, despite the pace that they both generate.
England can only beat the teams that are put in front of them but I feel Strauss needs to return to form quickly. indeed, if Harmison performs more like he did in the earlier test matches, he may find himself losing his place to another, whether it be a fit again Flintoff, Simon Jones or even young Stuart Broad. Let's hope Trescothick gets back to full fitness shortly.
Complain about this post"Finally, a word about the English team. You all got lucky this time, given that the West Indies were unprepared for this series...I'll take my hat off to England when they duplicate their performance against Sri Lanka, India, Australia, South Africa or New Zealand."
Granted England didn't do too well against Australia last winter, but when did they lose to any of these other teams...?
England are now unbeaten at home for 11 series, and have only lost 6 out of 27 home and away series since 2000 (3 of these to Oz). No other team except the Australians comes even close to matching that.
Fact is that England ARE number two in the world, so whatever "poor overall standard of cricket" was played, it would have been worse if most of the other teams were involved.
Complain about this postStunned and amazed - and most importantly saddened - at how bad the Windies have become. I remember being a student in the 80s living just down from Trent Bridge ground and seeing the invincible Viv and Co. ( I was there on the "...Holding...Willy" day!) and I was in awe watching Sir Viv strutting to the wicket like a prize fighter just itching to get stuck in; a true privilege. The man held his bat like it was a lollipop stick for heaven's sake! Where is that spirit now? I sincerely hope this is jus a temporary blip becase the World of Cricket NEEDS the Windies..Come on lads, get your mojo back!
Complain about this postStunned and amazed - and most importantly saddened - at how bad the Windies have become. I remember being a student in the 80s living just down from Trent Bridge ground and seeing the invincible Viv and Co. ( I was there on the "...Holding...Willy" day!) and I was in awe watching Sir Viv strutting to the wicket like a prize fighter just itching to get stuck in; a true privilege. The man held his bat like it was a lollipop stick for heaven's sake! Where is that spirit now? I sincerely hope this is jus a temporary blip becase the World of Cricket NEEDS the Windies..Come on lads, get your mojo back!
Complain about this postI really can't believe some of the trash spouted on here.
Had it not been for the weather, England would have won the series 4-0. Despite what some post Ashes 2005 cricket fans seem to think, England played some excellent cricket at times.
Roll on the India test series (Im not too fussed about the ODIs). I'll put my neck out and say India will not win one test over here this summer.
Karim, Monty has taken wickets against India (Tendulkar his first test victim), Pakistan, Sri Lanka, West Indies and Australia (inc 8 wickets at Perth) since his introduction to the team in 2006. He will get even better yet and at 25 has many years left to reach his peak.
In 17 tests, Monty has taken 65 wickets for 28.40. He would have had even more than 65 if he had not been ridiculously left out of the first 2 Ashes tests. Not bad for a 'rookie'.
To be honest he is probably rubbing his hands together at the thought of destroying the underachieving batting lineup.
Complain about this postHarmison has returned to form, has he? Four wickets for 170 runs (average 42.5) with three of his wickets being tail enders, does not strike me as stellar bowling.
David Amies
Complain about this postA staunch Windies supporter I am, but for the last 5 years I have agitated a change in the batting order. Christopher Henry Gale continues to frustrate, is a mediocre batsman and a poor Opener. He continues to blow hot and cold, and only smiles when he is bowling...SO...what is he Batsman or Bowler? He seems unable to last no more than a paltry 5 - 10 overs in any match in any version of the game, and it is high time the WICB stops papmpering to his enormous ego. Lets face it CH Gayle is a "DEAD RUBBER PERFORMER", and considering the length of time he has been opening for the Windies, his record is poor, and can never match the likes of Ganguly, Tendulkar, Smith, Vaughan or even Strauss, quite simply he is a disgrace. I suggest that he be dropped to either No 6 or 7 in the order and if he thinks he is beter than that, then let him prove it from there, we have Chanders, Sarwan, with Morton, Bravo and Smith to follow. The same comments go for Marlon Samuels, who like Gayle is yet to decide which planet he wants to bat on, both of them has yet to get with the program, its shameful performance from professionals who would like to be known as batsmen.
Complain about this postI have been delighted and impressed by the performance of Monty Panaseer. It is so many years since England had a match winning spinner in the team. Mostly those spin bowlers selected in recent years have just plugged up one end and kept the score rate down.
You have to go back to the days of Lock and Laker to have spin bowlers who can strike fear into the opposition.
Can Monty be the next Shane Warne I ask myself? Only time will tell
Complain about this postEngland won 3-0 against the weakest ever West Indies team. England lost ashes 5-0 in Australia.That goes to show where England stands.
Complain about this postAs poor as the West indies were - there were a few mitigating factors. Coming into a test series with not a single warm up game is ludicrous - and meant windies were always clearly to struggle with form. Two of the tests were played in conditions only ever found in England - i.e very cold and cloudy, Windies second best batsman and captain was ruled out of most the series (remeber the capitualtion in Leeds happened with just 10 men) and added to that Windies lost 3 out of 4 tosses - the only one they did win they drew the test.
Complain about this postThey are very short of depth - only Chanderpaul Sarwan, and Bravo are clearly world class - Taylor, Edwards, Collymore, Gayle and Ramdin ought to be up there bit something is effecting their consistancy - the rest seem a tad substandard. I dont think it is necessary doom and gloom - but only if they start preparing for series properly - and play to their potential - not way below it!
As a 'neutral' Australian who watched most of this match, here are some of my observations:
- I thought Vaughan significantly underused Monty during this match - e.g. he should've been given a spell before lunch on the final day. I just get the impression that the English leadership hierarchy are almost reluctant to admit what seems patently obvious to me - that Monty's now their best bowler and should be used accordingly. True, the conditions favoured swing bowling but Monty is someone who is a good enough spin bowler to take wickets in all conditions and clearly relishes bowling when his side most needs him to deliver.
- Overall, I thought England were patchy this series. They were playing against such a weak opponent that victory was a virtual certainty but the ruthlessness that seems to be a buzzword of the Moores regime only appeared at times. They shouldn't have let the West Indies get as close to victory as they did in the 3rd Test imo and on the first couple of days of this match there was a slackness in their play that gave their opponents the upper hand. On the other hand, their play from lunch on the 4th day was excellent as the sort of standard of play they should be aiming for consistently, especially against weaker opponents.
- As for the West Indies, it's clear that not only do they need talented players, but they need players who are prepared to put up a fight when their side most needs them to. Top of the list who seem incapable of that is Chris Gayle.
The more I see of him over the years the more disappointed I am. Today was a classic example of his slack play. Michael Holding in the commentary box had noted for some time that the ball wasn't swinging as much in the morning as it had been the previous few days and therefore, balls from Hoggard that were going across Gayle he could let go to the keeper. Then, instead of leaving these deliveries and settling in, he plays a lazy drive to a ball going across him and gifts his wicket. The talent pool doesn't seem very deep in the Caribbean, but perhaps its time to look elsewhere for a Test opener.
Complain about this postHmmm funny that failing preparing properly is seen as SO important for the windies .... what about us in the ashes just gone !!!!
Complain about this postWhen we were getting stuffed 5-0 in the eighties we were all moaning how bad we were. Lets enjoy the moment of this victory and build up to the 2009 ashes and see if can top the test ratings.
Complain about this postAgree with most of Aggers post. It's sad to see the Windies like this, and it was probably one of the poorest test series I have seen. This sort of imbalanced contest with little fight being shown by the opposition does little good for the game, and for the general public in both England and the West Indies it makes for a turn-off in interest.
England have been mediocre at best through this series with only the odd exception. And while to some extent that can be put down to the fact that is all they needed to do, given their form and attitude since the 2005 ashes it is not good enough. And though Aggers may be encouraged by Harmison, it seems to me too little too late - it's one thing to bowl like that with the series won, the pressure off and the opposition caving in - but he hasn't done it when it matters for too long (and even then as some have pointed out, rather briefly).
Complain about this postEngland bowled reasonably well on the whole and batted reasonably well on the whole but they were helped enormously by some dreadful batting and some even worse fielding from the West Indies. The number of West Indian batsmen gifting their wickets away was truly appalling and for my money Shiv Chanderpaul was the player of the series. Panesar took wickets and looked good but without question he was helped by poor batting. England just didn't look like they could Chanderpaul out. Had any other WI batsman shown any resilience England could've had a couple of results go the other way and against better teams they will. They need to find a way to remove someone like CHanderpaul because I think Dravid can be similarly limpetlike and he will have support!
Complain about this postWest Indies should have creamed this test convincingly. Only they can explain how they let England win.
But what a poor team save Chanderpaul and occasional flurries from Bravo, Sammy, Edwards and Ramdin. And their bowling is pedestrian.
How the West Indian supporters must be wishing that Wayne Daniel, Sylvester Clarke, Ezra Mosely and Eldine Baptiste had been born 25 - 30 years later than they did. These four never had a chance of being regulars in the late 70s and early 80s (at their peak) simply because Messrs. Roberts, Holding, Garner, Marshall and Croft were too good. I think even with this batting line-up they would have thrashed England.
Complain about this postAfter the millions of dollars spent on the world cup in the Caribbean, whcih was supposed to help regererate WI cricket, it is disheartening to see this Windies performance and to read Tony Cozier in the Independent calling for investment in professional leagues and other structures to imrpove the WI game. Where did all the money go?
The biggest scandal is that the world game is not looking after itself properly. Too many matches and pointles on day tournaments and nothing is being ploughed back into the game. The ICC should not be allowing the West Indies game to decline as it has and they need to take drastic action. A west indies academy, funding for pro clubs, backing for coaching initiatives - something to ensure that cricket is not lost on the next generation.
Complain about this postMaybe some thought should be given to league system.
League 1
Australia
England
South Africa
Pakistan
India
League 2
New Zealand
West Indies
Zimbabwe
Bangladesh
Ireland
1 team promoted and 1 relegated after say 2 years when teams in each league have played each other home & away.
Complain about this postAggers
Poor fielding is not only about the will to win but also about confidence. Yes a poor Windies team, but is the reason for hesitant fielding lack of quality and confidence or lack of desire?
Complain about this postI've mixed feelings about the ODI situation. My heart says KP for skipper. My brain says Paul Collingwood. I don't think the KP option would be conducive to Vaughan's overall sense of ease. But I've said before that KP is thinker: he knows the game and has learned much the Hampshire skipper.
As far as I'm concerned Vaughan should have stayed on as ODI skipper, with Moores calling the tactical shots. Given that this has not happened I'm hoping that the principal motivation for the split-skippers option is to preserve MV's test career.
England cricket teams of whatever stripe are demonstrably stronger with MV at the helm.
Having said all of this, I think we are lucky to have two candidates of the quality of Pietersen and Collingwood.
As for the West Indies. I think Bangladesh are mentally tougher. With this WI side you know exactly what you have to do to get back on top of them. Collingwood and Prior grabbed this game by the scruff of the neck to wrest the initiative back where it belonged.
Bravo, the great Chanderpaul and Edwards are the nucleus of a competent WI side. But Gayle? Captain of the West Indies? Has the world gone nuts?
Maybe I'll have to eat my words. It won't be the first time. But Gayle's appointment does not augur well for the West Indies and I empathise with their fans. His gesture at running the non-strike batsman out during at the death of the match and having just been appointed captain of the West Indies ODI squad says it all.
Edwards, Bravo and (of course) the indispensible Chanderpaul have what it takes. But the rest are not of the right mindset to play one of the toughest of sports.
I was also bewildered by the hysterical delight that followed Gayle's dismissal of Pietersen. This in the face of a humiliating defeat. A Sky commentator said that Gayle had the last laugh.
Complain about this postDid he? What's so funny for the West Indies captain elect? I don't see that he's got remotely anything to be chuckling about. I don't think that Sir Viv Richards was all that tickled either.
You must take into account that they were missing Sarwan who would've been a boost for the team and a good batsman.
Complain about this postAnyway, Monty rules and same to KP.
The danger of this series is that we go away thinking that we're in good shape, when in reality we came perilously close to letting the poorest Windies side in living memory make a game of it on more than one occasion.
An Australia or South Africa would have absolutely flayed some of our bowling in this series.
You can only beat whats put in front of you, but 3-0 is only just an accurate reflection of the series, had the Windies had Lara along to support Chanderpaul's application they could have embarassed us.
They won and ultimately thats all you can ask, but it should have been a whole lot more convincing than it was at times.
Complain about this postRe: post 100 (Ed Stansmore)
Divisional Test Cricket is a bad idea. In your system New Zealand would be in the 2nd division, what a shamful waste of some great talent that would be.
Personally I think Bangladesh would be the W.Indies right now, at home at least, but looking at the test schedule they're only playing 2 tests in the next year! How are their young and very talented team supposed to improve with a schedule like that?
Complain about this postThere are, unfortunately, times when this current West Indian side leave you quite speechless. Some of the cricket that we have seen over the last 6 weeks has bordered on the ridiculous.
We can continue to argue about where blame should be allocated, but ultimately, responsibility lies with those who take to the field. With precious few exceptions, they have showed little brains, and scandalously less brain - in the second category, even Dwayne Bravo is not exempt after his dismissal yesterday.
Without Shiv, there are a few people who may have had a few extra days off!! Through it all, the loyalty of supporters continues to be so impressive ... it is time that these people were given a tangible reward.
Complain about this postI was at Lord's for the first Test, and foolishly thought that perhaps the West Indies had regained some pride and spirit. Although not West Indian, I have adopted the West Indies as my home team, and if I feel as ashamd of their performances as I do, what must the good folk of the Caribbean, who are passsionate about their cricket, be feeling? The sad truth is that very few of the current team are good enough to play test cricket(the exceptions in my view being Chanderpaul, and possibly Sarwan and Bravo - Edwards, if not quite good enough, at least shows some spirit). The rest, sadly, lack talent, and then compound this with a lack of application. You don't get a sense that they are proud to represent the West Indies.
Complain about this postShould we now start to think the unthinkable, and suggest that the West Indies be relegated from playing Test cricket? Perhaps a couple of years of pitting their wits against the "A" teams of Australia, England, South Africa & India might bring them up to scratch. Also, it seems that the shoddiness of the team on the field is a reflection of the shoddiness of the WICB, and it is time for the whole rotten edifice to be swept away.
These are truly sad times for all genuine lovers of cricket.
Re post one:- England are a good test team.
What a short memory you must have !
Talk about one swallow does not a summer make.
Complain about this postWe get a result against a very sub-standard W.I. and suddenly all Englands problems are over. I fear not, when real opposition is encountered the players who folded in the winter will fold again. We have to keep this win in perspective
The most pleasing aspect of the series for me is Moores. The coach helps to set the tone for the rest of the selectors and the team.
By the end of the Fletcher regime loyalty was exercised without common sense. Weaker established players like Giles, Jones and Anderson were chosen ahead of better less established ones at the beginning of the AUS series. Now their is more of a sense of quality being the primary factor and a better balance between using tests and county cricket as a tool to rehabilitate out of form players. Strauss and Harmy were given a bit of a leash but would have been sent back had their poor trot continued. Plunkett was rightly sent back to the counties with the message that he had loads of potential but needed to hone it.
Also one gets the feeling that everyone now knows that county cricket counts. Yes the best players like Pieterson will not be dropped from internationals because of a few bad county performances but less central players know how they do will be properly compared against the alternative. A bowler like Anderson, Plunkett or Mahmood can no longer assume that he is automatically earmarked for a squad or senior tour but will now have to perform as compared with not just other young alternatives (e.g. Broad, Onions) but also older or more experienced ones (Sidebottom, Kabir Ali etc).
The same mentality seems to be applied to the senior coaching team. Yes Donald and Flower happen to be young but the main reason they are their is not age but because they have a reputation for being very good. No-one want to say it but Donald may turn out to be our new Cooley. He already seems to have helped Sidebottom and Harmison quite significantly.
There is also a feeling of better all-round judgment. Jones was so bad a keeper for a while and then so bad a batter that the Jones-Read debate went on and on whilst some of us were thinking 'well hang on isn't their a guy (Ambrose, Pothas, Davies, Batty, Prior?) who can be a proper number 7 and keep competently.' Moores simply helped pick one of the options and what looked like potential favouritism on his part turns out to be more of a case of lack of prejudice (i.e. he knew Prior was a more competent keeper and better bat than most pundits were suggesting).
Sidebottom was another excellent pick - under the old regime we could have expected; Anderson to be in and with 3 scattergun quicks victories in the second and third tests would have been less assured.
I suspect the common sense will also go down to the A team as well. It will actually become a very strong team. We have enough top bowlers (Hoggard, Flintoff, Sidebottom, Panesar, Harmison and S Jones if fit) to mean that bowlers like Anderson, Mahmood, Plunkett, Onions, Kabir Ali, Broad will be fighing it out for only one or two slots in the senior touring sides, the rest need to forcing their way in via showcasing at A level and next county season
Complain about this post"Please don't call Monty world class spin bowler as he just cleaned up a consistently impatient WI batting side, when he can repeat against Sa, NZ and Australia..then good he is definitely World Class..."
To this and similar comments, I point out 17 wickets at a smidge over 30 against Pakistan, along with India probably the best players of spin the the world on seamer's paradise pitches in England. Then there's the small matter of 10@21 against Sri Lanka who know a thing or two about playing spin themselves.
Complain about this postAggers,
I was very disappointed to listen to your report on radio 4 this morning where by not a mention was made of the tremendous bowling by Sidebottom, his batting wasn't too bad either, in this series, that is after he was selected after the first match. Hope he won't be sidelined for another umpteen years before he gets another cap.
Well done England, special congrats to Monty, Sidebottom and Prior.
Complain about this postI for one are fed-up of people sticking the boot into KP each and every time he fails to get a score. What bothers people so much about him? Is it his unconvential style? His un-English air of dominance and authority? His jsutified self-confidence? Is it all too mcuh for the 'purists' to take?
Some people claim he is "selfish". Well, if such selfishness means getting himself 466 runs at an average of 66.57, including a century, a double-century and a half-century, then the whole England team can do with being a darn-sight more selfish!
Yes perhaps it was a silly shot in the last 5 minutes of the 1st innings, but that's exactly what you get with him - he looks for total domination from his first ball to the last.
The blinkered cynicsm of some people is unbelievable, and I pity them.
Complain about this postPraise for Monty, Aggers?
You sure you don't want to see Giles back in? Like you said during the Ashes. LOL
Complain about this postAs a Windies fan I am really disappointed. Losing is one thing but the way we keep losing is shocking. Too often we just collapse aftrer being in good positions. I feel sorry for chanderpaul as he was the only one who was determined not to get out.
Things need to change at the top. If the Windies side is poor then its up to the guys at the top to sort the mess out. They have not done this so they must be the ones to go. However its no good in replacing them with another face. We need characters with a vision and plan to change the way things are done. We dont need another 'yes' man.
Complain about this postThe West Indies are a horrific mess summed up by the appointment of Gayle as one-day captain. He has bags of talent, I saw him score an awesome hundred at The Oval three years ago, but he is the ultimate show pony. When it's tough he can't be bothered and shows no inclination to sell his wicket dearly for the team. Ganga has come in for a lot of criticism after a rotten series with the bat but he has more tactical nous than Gayle and two hundreds against the Aussies show he can guts it out in the hardest circumstances.
West Indies cricket is ill served by it's administrators as their players are ill served by the hysterical Dinath Ramnarine who represents them.
One would think it's time for the ICC to offer some money and guidance before things get terminal but their is very little chance of that pusillanimous body stirring itself.
It's probably no coincidence that the West Indies greatest captains, Worrell and Lloyd, were both West Indian federalists who sought to overcome the regional squabbles that dog West Indies cricket.
Complain about this postIt's sad to see a great cricket side going into freefall - I do feel for Viv, Tony and co. in the commentary box and I agree with what they've said. If the Windies are to come back again then a lot of investment is needed and the politics to be thrown out once and for all. Looking at this Windies side I get the feeling that they weren't having fun - okay, getting beaten is part of the reason but when England got blackwashed during the 80's a couple of the England players were enjoying themselves on the pitch in spite of Holding and co. simply because they want to see how good they were against the best. Unfortunately, the present Windies squad (apart from Shiv, Bravo and Sammy) don't seem to realise that you should have a little bit of fun - check out Sammy's 7-66 and see the look on his face when he got those wickets and you'll see what I mean by having fun. It's only a game after all............
Complain about this postI agree with Johnathan.
I am pleased we won & there were good some good performances but this is this the first time in a number of years I did not go to Lords for the Test. £60 to watch that rubbish, sorry I love my cricket but that is not good value I am afraid.
Complain about this postAgreed the West Indies were not quite up to standard, but you can't say the cricket was bad. England did very well to seize the initiative and keep it till the very end. And they showed a lot of character in winning the last test despite being 165/6 in response to West Indies' 287 in the first innings.
Complain about this postI heard Sir Viv comment and having watched his team and Clive LLoyd team this side is a disgrace, what influence did Brian Lara have on this teamThe fielding , bowling and batting apart from Shiv has been poor.
Complain about this postThe WICB need to be held into account and should resign over this disaster!
Chris Gayle as a senior pro walking around sulking hands in pocket , as Morton, I cannot talk about the batting because it was worse than poor the bowling from Collymore and Powell was shocking too many four balls NB , I was disgusted how we allowed England to help themselves to easy runs.
Chris Gayle has been given the one day captains job lets see if his attitude changes because it was unacceptable throughtout this series,
The West Indies travel to Australia in 2008 and I dread to think what will happen out there.
We need to involve Sir Viv no disrepect to Radio 4 LW but he wants involvement, why have we not offered Sir Viv , Colin Croft , Micheal Holding a kings ransom to get West Indies Cricket back on track.
If I was a sponsor of this team there is no way I would renew the deal.
It will not be long before Australia and England start considering playing three test matches instead of five test matches.
pretty solid assessment aggers.
Complain about this postprices for test cricket and odi's are very high in england.
but i think the crowds will continue to come, partly because international cricket in england means for a large percentage, an excuse to wear fancy dress, drink beer all day, and sing mindless songs ( i.e having a good laugh with your mates)
cricket provides the backdrop..........that's all!
this test test series did not represent value for money as the west indies are sadly a poor shambles of a side, especially compared with their great sides of the recent past.
I have to say all these remarks by pundits about how sad it is to see the West Indies in demise is starting to annoy me. The fact is that the Winidies have had there day and there time will come again. All test nations go through a slump and they need to show character to come out of it, its not tragic or sad its part of international sport!
Complain about this postEnglish cricket is stronger at the end of this series than it was a year ago before the 2006 Ashes. Reasons to be cheerful:
Complain about this post1. Panesar now recognised (even by Aggers!) as a world class spinner the likes of which the team hasn't seen since D Underwood.
2. Prior now established as the batting wicket-keeper - making the team's overall batting look far more solid and oozing batting class.
3. Sidebottom's emergence ending any thought of needing to rely on the likes of the erratic/ineffective Plunkett/Anderson/Mahmood.
4. Harmison bowling well at last.
5. Hoggy still in top form, bouncing back from injury.
6. Vaughan now with the best win record of any England captain ever, and earning his place on his batting as well as his captaincy. A Mike Brearley who can bat!
7. All of the remaining batsmen bar Strauss in good form.
8. Although Strauss failed in the series there are plenty of other candidates to replace him in good form. Dropping Strauss would probably strengthen further a solid batting line up.
9. Good start for Peter Moores who seems to be taking the right decisions e.g. releasing players to counties for playing experience and making good selection choices (Sidebottom, Prior).
10. England showing again that they can win series the Aussie way - with just 4 strike bowlers plus the likes of Colly etc as back up bowling. So long as all 4 strike bowlers are in form this should be the preferred route now unless Flintoff recovers from bowling injury AND rediscovers some batting form or another genuine bowling all rounder emerges (A Rashid?).
OK West Indies were poor but England still did everything asked of them and I think made the Windies look much worse than they are. Remember England were not at full strength either on the bowling side with injuries to Flintoff, C Broad, S Jones and Hoggard all restricting choices.
06-20-07
Dear Personnel:
I am often confused by the West Indies selectors. In my opinion, there is no place on the team for Darren Ganga and Sylvester Joseph. The West Indies should invest in young players who can potentially command their places on the team as batsmen. Darren Ganga and Sylvester Joseph CANNOT!!
Roy Brummell
Complain about this postA Bajan friend of mine who plays to a decent level, and whose father played for the Test side in the 60s, reckoned either he or his dad would do a better job than the Test line-up out there yesterday, and he was just about right.
Desperately sad for a part of the world that is still cricket mad - forget about basketball, what really matters to a Bajan, Jamaican, Trini or Windward sports fan is that the WI cricket team is strong and doing well. Having grown up on the amazing team in the 70s and 80s, I don't miss the beatings we used to get, but wish they were at least competitive - only Chanderpaul would have got near the WI team ten years ago, when the decline was well on the way, let alone in their halcyon days.
From an England POV, terrific from Monty, Cook, Sidebottom and (mostly) KP, who's too ego-driven to ever be a 'team man', so why try to change him?
Prior did well with the bat, but I'm still not convinced by his keeping. Some of the one-handed takes down the leg-side looked good, but he only had to dive for them because his feet weren't anywhere near where they should have been - Knott, Russell, Taylor, and maybe even Prior's own Mr Ten Per Cent would have been across and taking them in two hands standing on their feet, which, if there's a tickle on it, makes it far more likely that a crucial catch will stick. We shall see...
Despite his 70-odd in the first innings, Strauss is in need of big runs fast - and if AF gets fits again for the start of the Indian series, he may not even get the chance to try again.
Can't see how any of the other top order bats could be dropped on form, though would actually prefer to see him left in and AF at seven, in the proper all-rounder's slot - we've ridden him into the ground for the last few years and if he's going to last, he needs a bit more protection/support. Colly, Vaughan, KP and even Bell can all bowl well enough for a few overs, so we're hardly short of options with the ball if we just play AF, Monty, Harmison (on form, that is) and Hoggy in the front line - trust each man to do their job and we'll be fine.
Complain about this postI, like many others despair at the sight of the once mighty West Indies struggle to attain a level of international competitiveness.
I wonder whether it is now time to consider creating two leagues of test nations with regular relegation/ promotion between the two divisions. Perhaps the West Indies recognise that they are currently not up to first tier standards but could undertake their rebuilding process within a group of smaller/ less strong nations.
Complain about this postRe: comment 125 - a two tier Test system would be easily the best way to finish off West Indian cricket for good!
With no visits by England, Australia or India incomes from fans and TV would disappear and the last hope for financing the rebuilding of Caribbean cricket would disappear.
Lets get some perspective here - through 1976-1986 the West Indies regularly whitewashed England. Its a cyclical process - they will find talent again - lets just enjoy England's supremacy whilst we have it.
Complain about this postLets get this absolutely straight....this west indies team is full of glorified club players. With the exception of Chanderpaul, Bravo and Edwards, you would come across players of similar level in most premier league club sides.
Moreover, their attitude (apart from the 3 mentioned) is absolutely diabolical. Witness their short fielding session on day 5 when they were staring humiliting defeat in 3 days playing time in the face, and a hammering in the series. Not only did they spill catches and make schoolboy errors in the field, they went about it laughing and joking without a care in the world, Gayle even resorting to try and run out Vaughan backing up for a few cheap giggles, and then when Gayle finally got a wicket there was fits of laughter all round.....the only thing is, the joke is well and truly on them.
Read this west indies players.....you lot are a disgrace to a once proud cricketing region, a distinguished and inspiring history being dragged down by your total ack of backbone, committment and effort, and total disregard for any semblance of professionalism. Truly you should be ashamed, and we can only wonder what the late great Malcolm Marshall is thinking looking on from the cricketing heavans.
Complain about this postI think it's a shame that Michael Vaughan gets praised as being the best captain of recent times when the sides he has captained against have not been at their best.
I was born a little too late (1983) to see the real heydey of West Indian cricket but I have seen other teams such as India and Pakistan become more inconsistent over the past few years too.
I don't know what the root cause of the problem is, maybe cricket isn't as sexy as other sports? Maybe other teams don't have the same hunger and willingness to work that the Australians have shown?
Whatever it is, I wish I could see a really breath-taking match between two teams at the top of their game...I'm not convinced that England vs India will provide that but hopefully it will be better than this.
Complain about this postLets not worry about the decline of the opposition but praise our team's progress.
Complain about this postI think that, rather than vent off from the commentary box, Viv and his alumni should go down and get involved with the current West Indies team. Their entire international cricket set-up needs and open inquest into their poor standards and the players themselves desperately need a a dose of inspiration.
Complain about this postIt wasnt that long ago england were in a similar position so maybe there is hope for the future of w.i. cricket...but it will take time. As for england dont see much different to fletcher era, will see when england face up to stiffer opposition against india
Complain about this postI cannot (yet) feel too sad for the West Indies. I grew up during a period when the West Indies dominated cricket in much the same way the Australia side does now, if not more so.
I remember the glee with which the windies inflicted one 'blackwash' (as I understand they were known) after another over everyone including us poor Englishmen.
They will need to suffer a few more indignities of this kind at our hands before I can sympathise with them too much.
That said, it is of course far more interesting to watch a closely contested series rather than one way traffic, but English handwringing is not required any more that we might expect the Australian cricket fan to agonise over the recent Ashes result.
Complain about this postAgnew,
You hit it on the head when you pointed at the sloppy fielding of the "athletic individuals" Given that their bowling is not up to par, sharp fielding is a prerequisite for the West Indies. Also, fielding can be learnt as opposed to other arts which require more natural ability.
Coming to India, they have a dream batting line up ON PAPER. But is Sachin Tendulkar even at 70% of his normal ability. We love him, I mean, we adore him. But is he the same Tendlya? I am afraid the answer is negative. Is VVS Laxman the same? NO. Only Rahul Dravis appears to be at his peak. Saurav Ganguly was never of the caliber of Sachin and Rahul, but he is a fighter but was never comfortable against the rising ball.
Mahendra Singh Dhoni has not yet reached his peak and could literally slaughter Panesar and company. But one young batsman in the top six is hardly a comfortable proposition.
Indian bowling is usually not very penetrating, especially overseas. And Anil Kumble could be a tiring warhorse. Ramesh Powar has a lot of natural talent but was denied opportunity by selectors . Rajesh Pawar is missing from the squad just as Harbhajan Singh is. So a problem here. The new ball attack is pretty ordinary, but Zaheer Khan and Shrisanth try very hard.
The manager was a competent cricketer during his time, but is there at the age of 75 because of Sharad Pawar, the Cricket tzar in India.
In summary, England has a small but distinct edge, all the hype about its recent performance against a very bad team notwithstanding.
Complain about this postIt's not all doom and gloom for the Windies. Sure, they look a player or two short of a top-class side at the moment, but they do have some individuals who have really put their hands up during this series. Chanderpaul's commitment and talent are unquestionable, while the likes of Dwayne Bravo, Darren Sammy and Dinesh Ramdin showed they are promising all-rounders. Of the bowlers, Fidel Edwards and Daren Powell both showed up well (Powell's batting in this last Test excepted), while Taylor and Collymore both contributed in spells.
Complain about this postThe two main areas of concern are the top order batters and the lack of a spinner. Chris Gayle has all the talent in the world - and bowls a tidy off-break too - but someone needs to give him a rocket and get him to refocus his efforts. Maybe dropping him from the Test side for a couple of matches would do the trick. Runako Morton falls into this category too. He has the passion to go with his talent, but just needs to be re-tuned to a better mentality for Test cricket. Ramnaresh Sarwan's injury was an unfortunate blow the Windies could ill-afford, but he'll be back to take his place in the line-up for the next Test series. Other than that, however, the cupboard looks bare. Ganga seems a personable chap, and did OK with the captaincy foisted upon him, but his form as an opener is horrendous. Devon Smith also looks far from the finished article, though I think he should get a run in his favoured position as opener, and the least said about Marlon Samuels the better. Sylvester Joseph didn't get much of a look-in on this tour, but should get his chance sooner rather than later.
So, the Windies need to tighten up the fielding - especially the catching - drop Gayle for a period and rejig the batting order, with Ganga moving down and Chanderpaul moving up, while the bowlers need to refocus their efforts on keeping it tight instead of always searching for the wicket-ball. The search for a young spinner must also begin immediately.
Maybe then the long-suffering fans, who are just aching for something to cheer, will be able to get behind their team again - cricket fans around the world would love to see the West Indies become a force again.
apparently Mike Gatting responded with great enthusiasm to the headline'Volunteers sought for Mars test' today.He was inconsoleable when told it involved space travel!
Complain about this postJust goes to show that keeping faith in Panesar instead of dropping him (as was suggested by Mr Agnew amongst others) in the first test for a seam bowler was the right call. Pleased that England finally have the conviction to pick a spinner regardless of the conditions as they invariably come into there own at some stage of a match.
Complain about this postI take little pleasure in this series win. i predicted 3-0 at the start and am not surprised at the outcome. I saw little in terms of bowling and batting to commend Windies for the future. I had thought Collymore might have proved more effective but he looked ordinary. The top order batsmen without Sarwan and of course Lara looked bereft. Most of the team were barely county standard. I don;t know if or how the Windies can improve on this. They may have to broaden their selection policy. Another year or more of this and any promising youngster particularly bowlers will turn to other sports basketball, football or baseball ahead of cricket. Success breeds success and failure leads to likewise. There must still be some talented players available for selection but they are well hidden if they are there.
Complain about this postAs for England I would like to see some changes in the fast bowling. Broad and Tremlett should be brought back in and on. Sidebottom is just county standard and Plunkett not even that. Harmison only bowls well in tandem with other good bowlers and does not seem to have the character to lead an attack. Alas where is Simon Jones when he is needed most. India will test England a little more but I predict a series win for England 2-0. So there should be some rejoicing albeit muted. County cricket is the future - it needs overhauling and an increase in standards.
Firstly, if the likes of Harmison and Flintoff were getting the results Monty is getting now, the press would be raving about them.
Secondly, if Monty suffered a drop in form similar to Harmison, he would be out on his ear in no time.
Thirdly - sympathy for they West Indies? I don't think so. Having watched them blast, bully and intimidate other teams for nigh on 20 years, I'm enjoying the fact that England thrash them convincingly every time nowadays.
Complain about this postThanks Aggers for a very objective assessment of this series! The legendary W.I. team of 75-85 seems like a distant dream.Not only the W.I. fans but cricket followers from all over the world are very much disappointed. Hopefully, the next series would provide high quality cricket and a closer competition between No. 2 & No. 3 I.C.C. ranked sides. England , of course, are expected to win under the home conditions as also because of a better balanced unit with capable batting force and certainly the more hostile & experienced pace department. However, cricket is a very funny game and a bit of luck may alter the entire prediction. Whoever wins, the cricket lovers this time hopefully will not be deprived of the pleasures of watching good competitive cricket. We all also look forward to your very competent and objective coverage of the pre-series and daily analysis on test days.
Complain about this postIt was very interesting to listen to Peter Moores interview with you Aggers.
It wasn't so much what he said, more what he did not say about the 'decision' of Vaughn re captaincy of ODI's.
One doesn't mind about the politics, providing the end result is there. I just hope that it does not become a fools paradise where they finally start believing in their own press releases like our current government.
Maintenance of high spirits comes from good management at all levels and good selection and good discipline. In some ways it is good that Freddy has had to have some body repairs to allow a 'calming period' prior to his return.
I like the changes so far that Peter has made, I expect some more, but not many. I hope he can persuade our 'wayward heroes' to become good and disciplined team members and stay fit and healthy, both in body and mind.
I feel so sorry for the Windies, it would seem their troubles stem from senior managers so into themselves and know little or nothing about anything apart from their own agrandisment. Sounds like the 50's/60's/70's English county system!
Keep that stick of yours sharp Aggers, I am sure it is still needed!
Complain about this postThis is a huge turn around by agnew has he said that the selection of giles was a fantastic decision by fletcher and what rubbish that turned (sorry for the pun) out to be.
Monty is joint 6th in the world with hoggy. This better than giles achieved. Monty is fantastic bowler as well as a person. He is the talisman of this side.
Complain about this postTo all posters.
Don't blame the front hall guys, blame the back room guys. If the WI management wasn't such a bunch of T--------, these guys would have some fire in their bellies.
Have you listened to Sir Viv and the other WI veteran commentator on TMS, I think they are being 'diplomatic' with what they have said even tho it is apparent they are both extremely 'fired up' about the situation, they are both seething, and nearly openly hostile.
Apparently the WI replacements for the ODI's are going to arrive to late to play in the first!
Does that sound like good management.
Reading between the lines of their comments Lara was a great batsman, and worse than bad as a captain.
It sounds as though between them the management, who appointed Lara, have managed to positively generate a negative attitude. Hence the reaction of the players.
If the management generates an attitude of 'why bother' and 'couldn't run a P--- U- in a brewery'. The captain has zilch in man management, small wonder most of the players feel 'they are on a ship without a rudder'.
I don't want the Windies to 'wup us', but I feel for their pride.
It sounds as though the WI management system is just like the old colonial system, which in the final event ruined GB. Don't forget the WI are all different countries (islands), grouped to play cricket together. Imagine the inter-island politics!
Complain about this postMonty was the difference between the teams. Until the last innings of the last test Harmy looked impotent and the rest of the attack was nothing much to talk about.
Complain about this postTo have had 6 five-for in the first 17 tests is a remarkable stat for any bowler esp for an English spinner! An English spinner!!
Another thought on the demise of WI cricket, and other problems around the world.
Over the last few years I have had my two kids, now both nineteen, one boy and one girl growing up in the current world. Black ghetto music/culture has been a very strong influence on both of them, particularly the boy, if the sounds coming from his room are anything to go by.
It is all so negative! Success doesn't seem to figure in lyrics/culture, everything is about gloom and doom and bad things. My kids are white and if they have been strongly influenced, what has happened to a lot of black kids.
This may be one of the reasons that as Sir Viv says, there are not enough kids coming into cricket in the West Indies.
Even as good parents it is very difficult to counteract this destructive subversive influence on the next generation of hoped for performers in all walks of life.
I hope to god that the world is not entirely populated by call centre operatives who just about manage to learn a script.
Their seniors are the only ones that can command better, maintain tradition and indicate that you only get from life what you put into it.
Expect maybe a little less than you put in. I think a good principle for life.
Complain about this post
Complain about this postJonathan, you can say what you like about the decline of WI. this is it for me, as of today I am no more a fan of the windless Windians. They are paying these spineless cricketers so much money, and I hope they concentrate more on FOOTBALL, rather than this colonial game, that has become insignificant in the Caribbean. I say more focus and money to football, and let this game go back to memory lane.
Greenidge
Haynes
Lara
Richards
Sobers
*Lloyd
+Walcott
Marshall
Ambrose
Gibbs
Holding
What an XI ........ who have WI got now ..... Chanderpaul and Bravo, with not too much else - for some reason the team look like rabbits in the headlights with no leadership or discipline ..... time for a coach who can motivate ..
Complain about this postMajor shake up is required in West Indies Cricket board itself, then strong leader in and off field.
Complain about this postCricket team is consisting eleven members,not one or two here and there.The show in England is medicore
hate to say it, but surely england deserve little credit at all for beating such a bad team- the fact is that england couldnt dismiss the windies one reasonably good player,Chanderpaul
Complain about this postI can only agree with this Aggers.
Complain about this postThose of us of a certain age can remember vivdly the home "blackwashes" in the 1980’s - not quite sure about that phrase now. The Windies dominance over what was not a poor England team, including the likes of Sir Ian, Gower, Lamb et al and the rest of the other Test playing teams was carried out over more than a decade based on dominant quick bowling and great batting.
It is sad to see and think there is a lot more to it than it simply being a part of a peaks and troughs cycle. From what I remember it was always said that the Windies were always talented but became truly great under the strong leadership of Sir Clive Lloyd who was able to overcome internal friction for the good of the team. A hands on figurehead of this type may be a start because what we saw in this series was not a committed “team”.
As regards England it’s a case of well done. You can only beat what is in front of you and this is what they have done comprehensively with all of the lead players playing a significant role in the series; special mentions to KP, Monty and Sidebottom.
India will be an entirely different proposition, particularly with their strong batting line up. I am looking forward to it, particularly a long “wet” weekend at Trent Bridge. Bring them on.
When Trev, Flint, hopefully Jones available, England will be much stronger.
Complain about this postThe experience gained by Plunk, Shah etc will be valuable to enable us to have a very strong squad.
Whatever happened to Tino Best - wasn't he related to Fidel Edwards, who has at least been aggressive and committed. Perhaps it runs in the family?
Complain about this postAfter this series I wonder if Test cricket is becoming meaningless? Here we have an average English side blowing away a side not much better than a county second 11.(Chanderpaul and Bravo were the exceptions.) I wonder how long people will pay £40 plus a ticket for this rubbish? And yes rubbish it was. At times our bowlers needed two wicket keepers and yet they still got themselves out! Now we've got to put up with a whole load of 50 over nonsense just to rub it in. More is not better.
Complain about this postDon't write them off! We've been there, remember, and come back again... and again!
Complain about this posti thought at times england were just as bad.West indies need to time out of the test matched and concentrate on buildign a team that is goign to play as stongs as the olden days boys.
The lads in the WI team just arent good enough fr test cricket .i have seen better sunday drivers play better then they did.
Complain about this postall i gota say is that that is really cool!
Complain about this postaggers, hardly any of the west indies playes have played in county cricket - why? because they are not good enough. I reckon several counties could beat this west indies side... that is how far the windies have slipped in the last 13 years. When Chanderpaul retires they will be in big trouble because they will start losing to zimbabwe or bangaladesh.
Complain about this postwhat's the solution to the windies problem - finding 4 tall fast bowlers would be a start! steve london
Re 146
Interesting selection. Good job.
By the way, Garfield Sobers DID NOT FIND ROOM FOR VIVIAN RICHARDS in his team of the best of West Indies. He chose Rohan Babulal Kanhai instead. His reasoning, both Kanhai and Richards were batsmen of the same caliber but Kanhai was a much better fielder.
I would include Weekes instead of Lloyd. Weekes batting average 58, same as Sobers and higher than Lara and way higher than Lloyds.
My choice of captain would be Sobers with Kanhai as vicecaptain.
I shudder to think what would happen to Kevin Pietersen, the bragging urchin,when he faced Marshall and Holding. Scores like retired hurt 0,perhaps and then county cricket for the rest of the season?
Complain about this postDear Aggers
Can we have different blogg spots on your blogg spots, with also threads, so that people can pick up different ideas, threads and expand them. Also another question: do 'the powers that be' read these blogg spots and take them seriously?
You know, I know that many of the people out there, not all, are a lot more informed, perceptive, intelligent, imaginative opinions, than many of the current 'executives'.
The old phrases 'money for old rope' comes to mind, I do not know its origin, although I can imagine, another TMS waffle at times of inactivity, that is what is so wonderful about cricket, it allows thought and comment. It is not 90 minutes of 'cut and thrust' and no time for fun, or itellectual involvement.
My questions/comments tonight.
I suspect the ODI captaincy issue is 'done and dusted' Thank god they appear to be good mates! Colly deserves it, he has worked so hard, thank god KP realises he has stuff to learn, he is indicating maturity, which sooner or later will come to fruition,
Bell, Cook, and others will come to the realisation that building a long term team like Australia requires extreme commitment from individuals, long term, Hopefully Peter Moores can instill that in the current 'crew'.
I wish I could have heard a TMS commentry on todays Lions game. They indicated they were going to take the world apart. They went off at 10 runs an over, fantastic, that is how it should be in ODI, however you need to maintain that, and have a strategy. I suspect there wasn't one. I can only assume that Peter Moores alowed them to 'have their heads' to allow them to realise that international cricket is not just energy.
Many of the 'A' team must be thinking long and hard tonight, about 'how it went wrong'. They set off with the right ideas, get the scoring rate right initially, 10 an over will win every ime, particularly in a shortened match,
You need to maintain it.
More importantly you need to bowl at it.
It was plainly obvious they didn't.
Hopefully the 'upstarts', no knock just a rational comment about youngsters, will 'think', maybe I have to rethink my game.
I think every team member needs to be given a very precise function to perform, for eacj game, particularly the inexperienced youger ones.
Hopefully the 'cubs (not Lions)' have realised 'it ain't that easy, even against second string (mostly) WI. I hope it will 'fire them up'.
If Peter Moores is doing what I expect of him he is 'pointing up' peoples strengths and weaknesses.
I do not mind the second string loosing, even though they should have won, providing the 'young bloods' are learning. These smart 'up and comings', should get a serious 'bollicking' for loosing today!
Don't fire them, just fire thrm up.
Also tell our special cricketers to get back in there, Trescothic, Harmisson etc. I think the phrase is 'put up or shut up'.
Tell me why the 'Lions lost today?
It seemed like the English bowling was rubbish.
Also, can we please get rid of the 'safety speak'. Most people speak goobledygoop nowadays, they are reluctant to speak their mind for fear of saying something that might offend others, therefore they say nothing, perhaps trendy PC nothing. The intervies mean nothing to anyone.
Can we cut the crap please and get back to reality.
Regards
Neil Hewitt
Complain about this posti think that the windies can improve, because they have got sarwan,chanderpaul,gayle,and fantastic bowlers but i can say that they loss the game b'cause of the spinner monty paanesar,and i also think that the windies should be knowing how to face the balls of panesar.
Complain about this postgood luck windies
The West Indies display reminded me of some of the cricket England were playing before Duncan Fletcher (and occasional lapses into it have also been noted). When they were playing like that, there were many voices delcaring terminal decline, and I would guess the same for the WI. India will be far more competitive and a better test for judging the quality of this England team.
Complain about this postHarmison should be dropped for the India series until he has proved hes back to form, i.e. taking wickets and wanting to open th attack
Complain about this postWest Indies are not the same team as it used to be in the past.English cricket team are also not at their peak.It was match between two mismatch teams.
Chabahil,Kathamndu,Nepal
Complain about this posti wonder...............for years the windies were arguably the greatest team ever- even put next to todays australians - they beat what was a better than people think england team in the 80's, elegant gower. the greatest allrounder in botham. it seems to me today the west indies have been isolated by world cricket which may be why they are so weak now- could it be they have been smoked out of the game because of those old canings? surely not? i wonder.............NOT ONE proffesional player in the english cricket county system to help them learn there trade and get used to english conditions. it was part of the old players learning and i think with all the saffas and aussies in our county system that is is discrimination.
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