England in need of change
Barbados - England did not deserve a place in the semi-finals - the only reason they were in with a sniff at all was because South Africa arrogantly underestimated Bangladesh - and Graeme Smith's team mercilessly drove that point home.
Every weakness in England's game was ruthlessly exposed and they were shown to be wholly inadequate to challenge the leading international teams.
The manner in which Ian Bell, Michael Vaughan and Andrew Strauss calmly and routinely defended the new ball at the start of England's innings verged on the comical. This is not a new approach, but the one we are repeatedly told is the way that best suits England’s players. What a joke!
All that happened was Shaun Pollock and Charl Langeveldt were never pressurised, and were able time and again to pitch the ball up and swing it away from off stump. Not once was there an attempt to hit them off line or length. It became rather funny, in a sad sort of a way.
Of course, Graeme Smith and AB de Villiers then showed England how you do bat at the start of a one-day innings. You don’t have to slog, but you have to play your strokes, not merely to score runs, but to snatch the initiative - something that is anathema to England. How they made James Anderson and the worryingly fragile Sajid Mahmood suffer.
Vaughan is a shrewd tactician and a good leader. He is also a fine Test batsman. However, his record as a one-day cricketer speaks for itself, and he should not be chosen again. You simply can’t carry people these days, captain or not, and he should be replaced by Paul Collingwood.
I believe that relationship will work not only because they are friends, but Collingwood has no realistic hope of leading the Test team, and therefore he should not tread on Vaughan’s toes.
And what about Duncan Fletcher?
This is a more complicated issue than merely replacing a captain, but it does seem now that a fresh face is needed. Fletcher has done a great deal for English cricket since taking over from David Lloyd, but new ideas and a more aggressive and positive approach has to be instilled.
Time is an issue, because the right man has to be chosen, but I don’t see any problem in Fletcher announcing now that he will stand down at the end of the summer, giving the England and Wales Cricket Board plenty of time to select his successor.
This defeat, and particularly the manner of it, was chastening, devastating, and embarrassing. Perhaps just as well that it was, because unlike the temporary distraction the CB Trophy created in the wake of the Ashes debacle, English cricket was laid absolutely bare at the Kensington Oval.
Change is necessary and unavoidable.
Quite right. I'm pleased, too, that there was no late rally by England that might have, as so often before, diluted the poverty of this cricket team.
I think we need a nasty man in charge: a hard man. We've had the soft and I'm sure very charming (in his own sweet way) man in Fletcher, but having kicked the team off the bottom of the pile, he doesn't appear to know quite what to do next.
What's that Irish bloke's name who played for Man Utd and now coaches Sunderland? He'd do.
And bring back Strauss as captain. Please.
Toodle pip.
Complain about this postAs I said earlier, KP's arrogance and single minded obsession with his personal successes will create such a hole in English cricket that it'll be too late when we discover it. Not to mention the media backing such a fairy tale themes--"KP's the best" and "he's the anchor"....bullshit...period!!
Has a batsman ever, by himself, won a team games? (Lets not bring the great Don here). We need a team spirit...and that spirt comes when everone knows they need to put 110% for the cause.
What happens when KP is around is similar to what Sachin did to the Indian team. Everyone starts believing he's gonna play for the rest of them.....and while Sachin doesn't try to overimpose himself by trying to be absurdly brash in the middle, KP's sheer arrogance not only shows how less he cares about the team but it certainly brushes off on others.
It's sad to see what happened here today.....but what made us with the CB series? No KP (the so called best batsman in the World....hmmmm). 5-nil in Ashes...and guess who was present there.....5-nil against Srilanka....guess guess.....5-1 against India....well....isnt it obvious other guys breath freely without KP around?
Complain about this post"England did not deserve a place in the semi-finals"
To be honest, you could have left it there. We all knew what would happen today, and it did.
Cheers for the commentary on my way home from work though, depressing as it was!
Complain about this postToo true Aggers, too true. I was embarrassed to watch that woeful display.Something now has to change, and for me Vaughan's One Day career should come to a close.
Complain about this postAs with boxers not knowing when to retire in their prime, Fletcher missed the opportunity to stand down in the light of the glorious exploits of 2005. He's now presided over a woeful tour to Australia and a dismal World Cup. His loyalty to favourites only works when they win. The Augean stables need a complete clear out and wash down before a new trainer to sets to work with a fresh string of horses
Complain about this postEngland were outbowled, out-fielded, out-batted and out-captained. The VB success should never have masked England's failings. We are a very poor one day side - other than Pieterson we have no international class one day batsmen. And for a country like England that is very sad. I just hope that in 4 years time something will be done - but don't bet on it.
Ultimately, I think we will prove in the Summer that we are still a decent test team especially on home soil. But we need to start taking the one day game more seriously and picking the right sort of players so that we are never again in a situation when we are on just 9 runs off the first 7 overs in effectively a World Cup Final!
Complain about this postI agree it was a shocking performance as it has been throughout the world cup and only Pieterson can put his hand up and say he's done his bit. I'm embarrassed to be english.
Complain about this postI agree, Saj is way to inconsistent - capable of some great balls but then some right howlers. However I don't think that a change of captain or head coach will bring massive changes, although it will help... unfortunately the players have been living in a bubble since the Ashes victory 2 years ago. This England cricket team joins the traditionally long list of English sporting over-hyped failures who are as clinical as a Watchtower yielding Jehovah's Witness.
Complain about this postSpot on Aggers. Fletcher has to go, but with dignity. He has been fantastic for England. I would have him in a talent spotting role, maybe as a selector too, whilst handing over the coaching reins to Moody or Moores. Fletcher has skills which are still very valuable to us, but as a coach he's past his sell-by-date.
Complain about this postI entirely agree - the selectors also need to accept that Sajit just isn't an international quality bowler at the moment (if he ever will be).
Complain about this postWhat to make of the CB Trophy success? Well, Australia played like they weren't interested while New Zealand were just unfortunate. England capitalised on that, but there was no way in the world they were going to get away with it again at this level and in this sort of competition. We deserve to be out of it - no doubt about it. We are not good enough and we are still light years away from being a consistently good one day team.
Hats off to the ICC for getting something right though - the Super 8 has certainly sorted out the best four teams to reach the semi-finals.
Complain about this postI agree with everything you said, Aggers. Today is the Death of English Cricket Mark III. Mark I was the first Ashes defeat by England and Mark II was in 1999 when England were declared the worst cricket team in the world. What a lousy winter for England! An Ashes whitewash and to be kicked out of the World Cup in such humiliating manner. The CB victory will now be forgotten and as you said, change is now unavoidable...
Complain about this postSpot on, Aggers! A thorough thrashing leaves no scope for "if" & "but"! England just don't get it when it comes to limited overs. By the way the top batsmen from the leading countries seem to perform at both forms and don't split the captaincy.
Complain about this postMoody for coach. Cook, Broad and Shah in the team. Left / right opening partnership. 50 over games at the domestic level (why 40?) Emphasis on accurate bowling to a field; much better calling and running of singles when batting; aggressive fielding with specialist positions ...oh, and a willingness to dominate with both bat and ball! West Indies, watch out!!!
David
Given that South Africa have just completely outclassed England in every single department, is there not a case for saying that England shouldn't even be at this tournament? That, after all, was the argument being made against the minnows taking part. Scotland, for example, didn't do any worse against the South Africans than England did. Either both are entitled to take part in the tournament or neither of them are up to it.
Complain about this postI agree with Mr Jonathan 100%, excpet for the Coaching part. I think England do need a new Coach. Please let our Engalnd players know.. they are not playing 50 over test Cricket...its just so awful to watch them.
Complain about this postOh how true. As the son of an avid Yorkshireman I will always support Vaughan and I beieve him to be a very good captain, but when it comes to the OD game that isn't enough. Then there is talk of Freddie being troubled by the spinners; I know it isn't a new idea, but shove him up the order, even open.
Complain about this postSaj, no more can be said.
It all points to poor selection and planning.
England got what they deserved (unfortunately) and the whole OD concept needs rethinking, noone is safe.
Hog, Harmy and Alistair should count themsleves lucky to not be a part of this shambles.
here here
Complain about this postThat was a complete embarrassment, i love the England cricket team (they are my TEAM and have spent vasts amounts happily travelling all over the world to watch them) but today i actually could no longer watch as it was too comical or in my case too painful (S.A. 43/0 after 3 overs, thats how to start a run chase!)
Thanks Fletcher for 2004/5, 18 months of unbelievable Test cricket and the Ashes summer which will be with me till my dying day but please do the honourable thing and never darken another England 1 day international with your 'coaching skills'!
Complain about this postcompletely agree, Pietersen at number 3
Test line-up
Strauss
Flintoff
Pietersen
Bell
Collingwood (c)
Bopara
Vaughan/Joyce
Broad
Panesar
Plunkett
anyone agree?
Complain about this postI really couldn't agree more - everything Aggers has said is spot on. What I cannot understand is how - the recent ashes debacle notwithstanding - England can be such a good Test team and such an awful one-day team. The format may differ, but the key skills are the same, and lets not forget that on day one in the second test of 2005 against Australia, England were scoring at around four an over all day - in a test!
Whether it's mental, motivational, discipline-related - whatever it is, I think the England management need to throw away every established idea they have about how to run a one-day team and start from the bottom up. If this was my business I'd have all the staff in tomorrow morning and brainstorm the hell out of it.
Complain about this postLooks like these Aussies are too strong due to some good genes, open spaces and some Kangaroo meat. It is about time to think of some handicapping system like in amateur golf to give weaker teams fighting chance. Giving opposition fifty runs wil be one consideration.
Complain about this postI do agree that England played too cautiously at the beginning of the inning, but never before i rated Ian Bell as an opener. I have to say Vaughan was totally out of form (apart from 1 or 2 stroke he played quite timely), and his position needs to be looked at. I thought Strauss played well and positively until KP fell (he was on 24 from 23 balls). But then again, top orders are disappointed and Freddie failed with the bat once again when England needed him.
Complain about this postTerrible World Cup exit for England
Such odd selections have been made over the years that it is no surprise that this should continue - just what exactly did Mike Yardy and Matt Prior do to upset the selectors for example? Played for an unfashionable team maybe?
Complain about this postNotwithstanding the injury to Yardy his continued absence from the team is farcical given his form over two years.
Think back to Collingwood - he was always considered a one-day player only and was only discovered as a test player by accident.
English batting has been poor for years - who can honestly say that they weren't forever worried even as we won the Ashes - a collapse is only ever two balls away.
We need a new coach. We need a new panel of selectors really, who can recognise young players who can be adapted to, not adapted to suit the team. Losing is not a crime, wasting talent is.
While we are here let's also dispel another myth - Freddie is not nor will he ever be, a test number six batsman - he is a fine bowler that can bat a bit, just a little bit. Even in 2005 I would say that the best all-rounder in the Ashes was Shane Warne, followed by Brett Lee then came Freddie.
So why not play him as a bowler with two other seamers and someone like Monty, a keeper at seven and someone like Bopara at six who can bowl a bit. Colly can take a few overs, or not play Monty and use Pietersen/Vaughan as spinner thus leaving room for a fourth seamer. The thing is that a balanced side is one that has the best players in it - not one that strives to follow a set blueprint. Do India, Australia, Sri Lanka et al leave youngsters to mature? Or do they get them in while they are still raring to go?
I'll take the job of selector and show Freddie just how to get blootered on a pedalo and then get away with it...
Must-watch cricket, was the cry, including from BBC sport. And for the second time in two days it was a bust. First, the negative tactics from the Lankans, then true lack of class from the English cricketers.
The English team seems to rely on too few players and they collapsed like a pack of cards when the key players failed. Perhaps Agnew's pleas will be heard and English cricket will take a turn for the better. If this World Cup has shown us anything so far it is that more quality teams are needed to make the sport exciting.
Complain about this postGet rid of Fletcher, the revamp of team must begin right from today and hand Colly whatever is left of the team and give Freddie a long break!
Complain about this postThis is a message to dear old David Graveney.
The excuses and sound bites that england players and coach constantly come up with after and between games have been exposed. We all knew they were not as good as the top teams and incredibly lucky to be still in the tournament at this stage.
I can't see any of our players getting into any of the top 4 teams, except perhaps Pietersen as #5 in SA or NZ; and Flintoff as first change bowler in Sri Lanka or NZ. And actually that's it !
England have been clutching at straws the whole winter. We need a radical re-think.
Complain about this postWell played Aggers!
This side has been woeful throughout the majority of the tournament and its about time an independent enquiry was set up to find out why....no good using the ECB, they'll cover up.
One major question needs to be answered;
Why was an obviously unfit and out of sorts Michael Vaughan selected...if he was appointed as some sort of Brearley-esque figure, it has spectacularly backfired.
When Geraint Jones was being promoted to be some sort of pinch hitter a while ago, that was also supposed to be the best way forward for the team. Truth is, I, and am sure many others, believe that Duncan Fletcher really has no clue about one day cricket.
And as nice as bloke as Saj Mahmood is, he really doesnt cut it at this level
Complain about this postI hope you BBC pundits will give a bit of credit to South Africa for a change. You have repeatedly labelled SA as boring and predictable, with a supposedly glaring weakness against spin (despite that win over SL on a pitch made in Colombo).
I guess boring cricketers hit 6 sixes in an over. And knock-off a target with 31 overs to spare. I know who I'd rather watch, the imported KP apart.
When last did English openers bat like ours did today? It's time England went away and decided on their future approach to one-day cricket. Pretending it doesn't matter for 3 years out of 4 is never going to win World Cups in the long term.
Complain about this postToday was a total embarrassment. I've never understood this 'slow but steady' approach to the beginning of England's batting innings. I mean, it's not as if we can rely on the big hitters to help our score up to a competitive total because they're either out of form or plain inconsistent. The difference is that Australia and South Africa can make positive starts - and if they lose a wicket they have batsmen ready and waiting to come in and carry on with the run rate.
England have some match-winners in their side, but I'm afraid they're awfully inconsistent and generally out of form. Our bowling attack is weak and our batting leaves a lot to be desired. Vaughan - a talented batsmen, maybe - has a shocking ODI batting average. Flintoff has been a big disappointment, and at the moment I fail to see how things are going to improve.
And to think, my South African-supporting girlfriend was actually nervous about the outcome of the game! It was in the bag before we'd even lost a wicket. No team should ever be found 9 for 0 in the eighth over at any standard of ODI cricket.
Complain about this postCricket is a psychological game, and England are without doubt stuck in a mentality reminiscent of the nineties: Bat for 40 overs and hit out for the remaining ten. Is it just me or is everyone totally bemused at Vaughan and Fletcher's apology for their current tactics as 'being the best for the team we have'? Surely this is an admission either that we do not have the players capable of emulating the winning tactics of Australia and South Africa, or more worryingly that the two idiots at the helm of English one-day cricket do not agree that the 'Australian way' is the right way! Both need to go and England's one-day setup needs to step into the modern age, otherwise pathetic capitulations of the sort witnessed tonight will only keep on coming.
Complain about this postGood stuff Aggers, however I differ with you regarding captaincy. What about KP? Would be an excellent opportunity for England's best player to lead a team out in his style that we so dearly crave - enthusiastic, passionate and more importantly aggressive. We need a Smith/Hayden approach and this would be fuelled by Pietersen being captain, not the dibbly dobbly Collingwood. We need younger players in the team, and who better for them to be led by than by the best batsman in the world.
Complain about this postAgree broadly with what you say, though think you were a little unfair on Strauss,who was on 38 off 46 balls, which is not bad given teh circumstances. Change should be mandatory and I would bring in a separate one day coach. Step forward Dermot Reeve, the best one-day thinker in the English game.
Complain about this postWhat a joke.
The England team are pathetic. Rotten to the core.
This has to be the stimulant to overhaul English cricket in its entirety.
5-0 in the Ashes and now this. Embarassing!
Complain about this postHere Here, well said Aggers, yet again England have been embarrassed in the World Cup, the One-Day side has been a shambles and there has been no planning since 2003. It's simply time for Duncan Fletcher to go.
Complain about this postAggers tell us how you really feel!
LOL
England are a joke but a new path is needed.
I'd keep Collingwood, KP, Ravi, Monty and then pick 15 players under 23 and start building for the next world cup.
Complain about this postI think that vaughan should be dropped and be replaced by Mal Loye and make room for Marcus Trescothick either Bell or Strauss (whoever is doing worst) should be replaced
So My England team would be:
Trescothick
Loye
Bell or Strauss
Pietersen
Collingwood
Flintoff
Bopara
Sutton
Tremlett
Plunkett
Anderson
Panesar
They also need to make use of the fielding restrictions which they aren't doing being 70 odd for 3 after 16 overs is not good enough if you look at Australia, South Africa and New Zealand they all scored boundaries by going over the top during the fielding restrictions and get scores like 280-300 while England just block for the first 20 until all they powerplays are over then attempt to hit the ball then get then they are all out for a target like todays which will not win them a world cup ever.
Complain about this postWhat an embarrassment! I feel sorry for the punters who paid to watch such drivel! Vaughan should be dropped and replaced by Collingwood. As for Fletcher and the ECB - heads must roll. To keep on saying after every poor performance "we just have to look to the next game and I'm sure the lads will come good" is not good enough.
One day team should be as follows:
Loye
Bell
KP
Collingwood (C)
Flintoff
Bopara
Nixon (WK until retirement)
Mahmood
Panesar
Anderson
Keep Vaughan for the four days but in the 50 over format he simply can't and never has cut the mustard (and I'm from Sheffield).
One more thing, how come all English sportsmen after failing miserably in their professions say "we need to stand up and be counted"? There's some evil PR specialist that tells them all to say this. Either that or they have extremely limited vocabularies.
Complain about this postAggers you big numpty! You are spot on with your analysis there, England were drab and woeful yet again. Vaughan has failed to bag a drink at the last chance saloon and must surely be shown the door now. His record in the ODI game is as poor as his current form would suggest and he has proved incapable of turning that poor form round. Fletcher doesnt seem to have the answers to the clearly apparent deficiencies within the team and as you say Aggers, a fresh face is needed in that department as well. Tally Ho!
Complain about this postJonathon,
Complain about this postAnother article of nonsense. Collingwood as captain??? Why?? He said himself he has never taken charge of any side in his career. Fletcher to be replaced? We are the second best test team in the world, and compare that to not so many years ago, i think we would all have settled for that.
Talking absolute rubbish like this, it sounds to me like your trying to get a job as a pundit on Sky Sports! Move over bumble!!
I never thought I would say this but I agree with every word Agers has written in his blog today! Time Michael Vaughan did the decent thing. A captain leads by example, and if he's not doing the business it is time to hang up hs pads and make way for new blood. Oh, and I am crossing my fingers that MT is soon fully recovered and able to rejoin the team. Going for a lie down now - even my grey hairs have grey hairs!
Complain about this postHow many times in the last few years have we heard that all preparation was for this world cup, and that we would progress forwards and do extremely well.
When it actually seems that England didn't have a clue what they were doing and that there was no master plan, let alone a back-up plan or any knowledge of how to win.
The entire England set-up needs changing, from the Coach's lack of ideas or guts to change things when it's all going wrong, to the captain, yes Michael Vaughan is, or maybe was, a great tatical mind, but whats the use in a captain who can't do anything then set a field, even then his fields are set up to conceed 6 singles as the priority over wickets.
England need to take action when things aren't happening, Andrew Flintoff can surely be no longer considered a formidable batsmen, yet no-one does anything, he is neither moved down the order or seemingly told to play the bad balls and leave the good ones.
So, can England finally get some guts and admit they got it wrong, and that the system needs drastic change, or are we going to be treated to yet another batch of endless PR spin.
Complain about this postThis miserable performance was always going to be the way England left the world stage. Bereft of ideas and seemingly incapabale of taking the game to the opposition they just turned up to block out one end.. how long can Post 05 Ashes glory be heaped on such a mediocre bunch of glory chasers. The British Press has to put it's hand up as well. This is not a World beating team anymore than it was a 0-5 laying down team in Australia this winter. Yes one or two players can pull off the all too rare individual masterclass... but oh so rare.
Complain about this postThe Press must STOP making this team believe they have potential.. when clearly they and the manager have no idea how to conduct an agressive campaign. You win Trophies by dominating and gaining respect not by pissing off pedaloes and failing to turn up at the main event. I'm afraid this England (team) may be the worst ever and are looking to take the money and run.
Completely agree.
The echoes of laughter and, in some more merciful quarters, bewilderment, are surely reverberating around the cricket world as we speak.
Time is indeed an issue as England have so so much to do in even coming close to the cricketing power houses of the Southern Hemisphere.
THIS CAN'T GO ON!!!! Change now! Experiment now! Please England; please ECB; and please, the cricketing gods - DO SOMETHING!!!!!
Complain about this postAbsolutely agree, Michael Vaughan was never a one day player, and should not be in the team. Paul Colingwood is right to be captain, but why not go back with Freddie or Strauss! After all, Michale's test position should not be cemented as well, he has not performed for such a long time.......
Complain about this postSo which English players had a successful World Cup?
Pietersen - would have won us the world cup with a modicum of support.
Nixon - will be axed some time this year
Bopara - one for the future, an old head on youn shoulders
Panesar - a quiet start in the 50 over game, will get better and bettter with experience
Harmison - he might have a shred of confidence for the summer now
Broad - surely he has to play this summer?
Trescothick - shows how much we miss him
Any other ideas?
Complain about this postFlintoff - big time charlie. On the beers when he should be in the nets. Does he even know what end of the bat to hold anymore?
Vaughn - time to go!
Mahmood - Needs a lesson in holding a good line and length. Unless you really are that fast (ala Taite) and have someone tightening up the other end anyway (ala McGrath) theres no arguement for his inclusion on pace alone.
Complain about this postI agree - change is bound to happen, and it should. I just hope that the English media and fans don't completely turn on the team as that is never constructive.
Collingwood would probably make a good captain - he seems popular, intelligent and sensible, though I don't know what captaincy experience he has (not that this matters). Of this side I think that only two players should be discarded from England's one day plans - Vaughan and Mahmood.
Vaughan must be persuaded to call it a day, possibly before the West Indies game. Mahmood should never play for England again, in any form, unless he seriously works out his game and gets some control. He's simply an embarrassment at the moment, particularly when there's someone as talented as Stuart Broad sitting on the sidelines.
Fletcher mustn't be pushed, though I think he will see his time is nearly up. He must be praised for everything he has done in conjunction with Hussain, Vaughan and Graveney, but I think he's reached his sell by date. Tom Moody would be a good replacement as he seems like a good man manager, knows the English set up and has had good results with Sri Lanka.
Our current crop of selectors should all be kept on for the tests as they have done a fine job (overlooking the last Ashes series!) - perhaps we should have an entirely different selection panel for one dayers, with the manager and captain(s) feeding into both of them.
Let's not go through our traditional "everything must change" rant that we English like to go through everytime something goes wrong - we've had a mishap or two, but there's no need for an overhaul of the entire system.
Complain about this postAggers,
I hate to say it, it pains me indeed, but you are dead right and the thing that gets my goat the most in the whole sorry debacle -because it was one - is that team England did not see what was plain toeven to a rank amateur in the great game like myself. A brutal truth that has slammed into them today like a runaway freight train.
One day cricket is a sport or agression and taking the inniative.
Batting in the nets is marvelously but I have rarely seen a net fight back (unless it is trapping the odd stray dolphin) or snarl out sledges at a Batsman.
A lack of any attacking intent at the outset of the England innings (whether due to the lack of left hand bludgers or due to the presence of several 'craftsman' batsman desperately trying to regain form) meant that inniative was handed to opposition bowlers.
We may have well given Pollock a "rebuild your self-confidence CD", after his Aussie mauling, than the kow-towing batting performance that was put forward to his line and length efforts (coz that is all he has now) for the first 12 overs.
Lord, what it the point - we were just awful, simply awful.
Complain about this postI have followed the English cricket team for 45 years and I have never been so embarrassed as I have over the past few weeks of the World cup. What is really disturbing is the fact that if the management did not have the sense to make changes why did the senior players admit that their performances were not up to scratch and either drop themselves or make the necessary changes. Michael Vaughan would struggle to get into a second division county side, he has just lost his ability to hit through the line of the ball. I also hope that Andrew Flintoff is proud of himself, he has looked like a boy who had his hand caught in the sweetie jar and when caught out, he has just spat the dummy out. He has failed to be part of the team, his whole demeanor has been a disgrace to many young hopefulls who have been watching the competition.
Complain about this postThe Bangladesh team got criticism for being talented but not mature enough for the competition, that may be so, but as a team full of enthusiasm, I would turn on the TV to watch them long before I would watch the turgid stuff from Fletcher's band of no hopers.
I still don't understand the English obsession with 'one day' specialists. We're the only side in world cricket that make such wholesale changes to our line up and squad for one day competition.
If you're good enough for test cricket you're good enough for one day cricket. Good batsmen still pick their shots, good bowlers still put the ball in the right places.
Why do we have this national obsession with "specialist" players. Pick the best 11 available (including the captain Aggers!) and let them get on with it. Matthew Hoggard is one of Englands best bowlers but was left at home along with Harmison in favour of Anderson and Mahmood. Why?
Cook and Jones (G) also missed out on the squad entirely.
Until this two tier selection system is dropped England will never have a strong one day side.
Where I do agree with Aggers is that the attitude at the top of the order needs to change. SA, AUS and NZ didn't hold back but didn't throw the bat wildly against ENG. They just played their natural game and shots. We have to stop being fearful of doing the same.
I'd retain Vaughan but ask him to move down the order and push Flintoff up along with Bopari to allow the top of the order to flourish.
Who now for the cup? ANYONE BUT THE AUSSIES!!! :o)
Complain about this postSpot on Aggers. Michael Vaughan is simply not good enough in ODI cricket. You cannot keep on picking a player because he can captain yet he still cannot score the runs to help get the best results from his captaincy. I think that the Aussies have the right idea by making it clear that their captain has to score runs or take wickets, as well as implementing innovative captaincy. In the majority of other countries, the captain is assured of his place even if he isn't performing.
Complain about this postUtterly humiliating for England. Graeme Smith gave us such a lesson in all aspects of the game including the one thing which lets all our so-called national sports down - mental toughness. Just look at the body language of the Aussies, Kiwis, Springboks and to a lesser extent the Sri Lankans. Duncan Fletcher knows that, hence his espousal of Paul Nixon and Paul Collingwood. It's no surprise that the Rugby team fell away when Martin Johnson retired. Nasser Hussein had it, Mike Brearley had it. They should be the models for English cricket.
Complain about this postAgger's comments are on the mark, and if anything not damning enough.
England do not have a good team for one day cricket. We could not identify alternative English qualified players to replace the one's chosen, other than Marcus Trescothick who is ill and could not be considered.
Vaughan should not be allowed to live on past performances as a batsman and a captain. Pick the best team and then appoint the captain. He should not be the captain for the West Indies series until he has proven himself with runs for Yorkshire.
The tactics adopted in this competition have been mystifying. England are the only country that fails to see the powerplays as an opportunity. The consequence of the inability to take the attack to the oposition in the first 20 overs is that you place pressure on the middle order.
Turning to Paul Collingwood as captain may be a necessity given the lack of alternatives, but this does not fill me with confidence. Paul is a guy who has made himself an International cricketer by his endevour and hard work. Giving him the additional responsibility may lead to him failing in making these performances. The great captains are normally great players, not compromise candidates.
I am sure that this England team will be sick and devasted by the performance in this competition. That Graham Smith has rubbed their noses in it should make them mad and ashamed.
Duncan Fletcher should be told now that he has no further role in running the International team. Whilst he has done a fine job, this role requires new ideas and values, something that he has not been able to deliver.
Complain about this postEngland met a justifiable fate on being blasted out of the World Cup by South Africa.
Complain about this postTime and again, broadcasters and journalists have been stressing that England were lacking in power batsmen in the top order. South Africa were handed the advantage from the outset due to the farcical opening to England's innings.
The England selectors shouldn't be allowed to forget that they discarded the one batsman who more often than not would have seen England off to a dynamic start. So let's hear the name of Mal Loye mentioned; his omission from the side was a major blunder.
I aggree with everything aggers has said. I think we start from scratch. No ones place is safe and the best players will get in on form not names. As for captaincy - collingwood has to be the way to go.
Complain about this postin recent days I have read constantly, from a variety of England players and Management the `England could win the World Cup`
That just about tells you everything about the England mentality - we won the Ashes in 2005 and recently beat both Australia and New Zealand in an ODI - therefore "we must be able to win the World Cup"
Money for old rope - is the only worthy decription of the whole performance
I recall hearing the great Barry Richards on radio some years ago saying that in England we make stars out of anyone with promise - even before they`ve actuall ywon anything !
we are blessed with `mediocrity` in abundance in English sport - and the players are richly rewarded for their efforts ! - the sponsers have got more money than sense - so what`s the point of worrying whether they`re world-beaters or not ?
and finally - reading today`s press - it would seem that most of the England cricket team drank more pints than they got runs or took wickets - so perhaps our obsession with `averages` should include; runs/wickets per pint !
JC
Complain about this postI don't think changing captains is the answer. I think one of Vaughan's strengths as captain is allowing players to express themselves which is exactly what is needed in one day cricket.
Complain about this postVaughan should be dropped down the order to number 6 with KP opening the batting.
I do get the impression that the time is right for Fletcher to move on. A younger more positive coach would be ideal, perhaps an Australian, at least a coach who has one something in one day cricket which rules out any Englishmen.
Aggers is probably the most well placed person to provide comment and insite into English Cricket. I do fear though he misses the main point.
I played to a relatively high standard in my youth and am now coaching juniors. The whole coaching set up to support junior development is a complete joke and sadly we will not improve based on my observations.
I feared that losing cricket to Sky would impact on the general interest that was gained from the Ashes win, however I was "re-assured" that the additional money would flow into supporting grass roots. Rubbish. The admin, support, structure is a farce.
So, changing the captain is the least of our worries. Lets sort out the whole structure. With cricket, unlike sports like rugby, you can actually take raw talent and develop very quickly, we just need help!
Complain about this postFunnily enough I also agree with Aggers.
It's time for Vaughan to stand down as the One -Day Captain. Collingwood would be fair choice.
I tis also time to let all those who have not yet played in the World Cup matches, and those who played but a mere part, such as Broad, Joyce and so on have a go at the Windies.
Let the fresh start begin - NOW.
Complain about this postIf England was as good on the pitch as its sub-standard players have been off it, incessantly talking themselves up with their supposedly motivating psychobabble, it would win the World Cup. There was a glimmer of what might be possible out here in Australia a couple of months ago when the team, minus the liability in one day cricket that is Michael Vaughan, unexpectedly won the Commonwealth Bank series. It was a fine, though one-off performance which possibly gave the players a false sense of their comparative strength. All their previous recent history, including the 5-0 annihilation by Sri Lanka, had been to the contrary. They then went to the West Indies with a complacent , unprofessional attitude exemplified in the Flintoff/pedalo incident.
In the end this thrashing by South Africa might just be what English one-day cricket and its ossified administrators needs to re-think their entire approach to the game and seek new talent. Vaughan must go. He just is not the stuff of which contemporary one day cricketers are made. Moreover, someone needs to speak to Flintoff to make him aware that he can dine out no more on that one great Ashes performance in 2005. As a batsman his technique is flawed and his attitude and judgement questionable. What happened to Liam Plunkett in the West Indies? Out here he was clearly England's best one day bowler. Dare I say it, the entire English team could do with a lot more of the Australians' fighting spirit, their striving always to improve and lack of complacency.
Once more I find myself wholly agreeing with Jonathon's assessment. However, I have little faith the impercipient English cricket hierarchy will do much to alter its unwarrantedly smug attitudes.
Complain about this postCould not have said it better. Their openers just don't have the ability to take the game to the bowlers and hit through the ball. Vaughan and Fletcher must go. Trescothick is sorely missed, and although age may not be on his side, how the selectors have left Robert Key on the fringes the past 18 months is beyond me.
As an SA fan, I could not be more thrilled. The question remains how the SA bowlers will respond to the pressure that Gilly and Hayden will certainly apply. There are 10 guys in the Aus team who can beat you (Hogg is just not Warne).
Complain about this postTotally agree with everything apart from saying that fletcher should step down at the end of the summer. He should go now and put someone like Ian Botham in temporary charge. Someone like him would put pride back in the team and make the players play for our country with pride and passion.
Complain about this postWhy is it that England are so stuck in their ways? Slow batting at the beggining of the innigs, followed by slow batting in the middle and then if we make the final 10 overs with some wickets intact we always seem to lose wickets rapidly. Sajid Mahmood appears to be in the team merely on "potential", and his "ability to reverse swing the ball at 90+ mph"....when has he done that once? Slower ball followed by slower ball followed by leg side half volley! Useless. Why do we not try something new, promote freddy, bring back mal loye, at least he tries to make runs in the powerplays. Drop Vaughan , as Aggers says his ODI form is pathetic, but I would suggest dropping him from the test team also. He hasn't made runs since Manchester '05. Lets try some young players, a new captain, some new bowlers as Saj, Jimmy and co have looked toothless. I suggest for the ODI team:
Tres
Complain about this postLoye
Bell
Kp
Colly *
Bopara
Fred
Stephen Davies
Broad
Jones
Panesar
I'm am passionate about the game of cricket. Last year I downsided my house to fund the trip of a lifetime to watch England in Australia. What an embarrassment that turned out to be. England were totally outclassed by the Aussies and didn't they let us know about it out there!
Today against South Africa, it brought back those sad memories of England being well & truly thrashed - nothing has changed!!
Now the ECB - who are very adept at telling everybody what a fantastic system it has, needs to make intelligent & tough decisions now:-
- Fletcher must be replaced asap by somebody who can demonstrate they can coach the modern game eg: Tom Moody.
- Vaughan struggled playing the 1 day format before injury and despite all the big talk of runs round the corner, he's never delivered. Get rid of him for the 1 day format and replace with Collingwood. Loved it when Collie got cross about the poor fielding tonight - need more of that sort of passion in our side!!
- Bring in new talented players & get rid of those older ones who don't perform. We have a team thats not working already so what's there to lose?
- Finally I think we need to be very careful about the number of overseas players coming into the county to learn our game & take the money. We must limit the number of domestic overseas players and concentrate resources on developing our own world class players.
Complain about this postin recent days I have read constantly, from a variety of England players and Management the `England could win the World Cup`
That just about tells you everything about the England mentality - we won the Ashes in 2005 and recently beat both Australia and New Zealand in an ODI - therefore "we must be able to win the World Cup"
Money for old rope - is the only worthy decription of the whole performance
I recall hearing the great Barry Richards on radio some years ago saying that in England we make stars out of anyone with promise - even before they`ve actuall ywon anything !
we are blessed with `mediocrity` in abundance in English sport - and the players are richly rewarded for their efforts ! - the sponsers have got more money than sense - so what`s the point of worrying whether they`re world-beaters or not ?
and finally - reading today`s press - it would seem that most of the England cricket team drank more pints than they got runs or took wickets - so perhaps our obsession with `averages` should include; runs/wickets per pint !
JC
Complain about this postGood grief - that was one of the most harrowing games I have ever experienced as an England cricket supporter, and there have been a few!
I'm absolutely with Aggers about this being a necessary defeat, however. One-day cricket in England frankly needs a revolution. It's not just the "shorter" format of the game, it's almost a different game entirely.
In the short term, get out the 'Test' players who are struggling to adapt, such as Vaughan and Strauss. As much as a feel sorry for Mahmood, it really doesn't seem like he's going to make the grade. I also have concerns for Monty's wicket-taking ability without the pressue brought through an array of close fielders.
Bring Tresco back ASAP - demons or not, he's the best we've got - and bring Freddie up to open with him. Retain Bell, KP, Colly (capt), Bopara, Anderson and Plunkett. Then choose a few fresh faces, perhaps Stuart Broad, Michael Yardy. With it we need a coach who is going to plan a team for the next World Cup, instead of lurching from one disaster to the next as Fletcher has done.
Complain about this postin recent days I have read constantly, from a variety of England players and Management the `England could win the World Cup`
That just about tells you everything about the England mentality - we won the Ashes in 2005 and recently beat both Australia and New Zealand in an ODI - therefore "we must be able to win the World Cup"
Money for old rope - is the only worthy decription of the whole performance
I recall hearing the great Barry Richards on radio some years ago saying that in England we make stars out of anyone with promise - even before they`ve actuall ywon anything !
we are blessed with `mediocrity` in abundance in English sport - and the players are richly rewarded for their efforts ! - the sponsers have got more money than sense - so what`s the point of worrying whether they`re world-beaters or not ?
and finally - reading today`s press - it would seem that most of the England cricket team drank more pints than they got runs or took wickets - so perhaps our obsession with `averages` should include; runs/wickets per pint !
JC
Complain about this postMuch of that I agree with Aggers, but not the bit about Fletcher.
He must go now. Once you're gone, you're gone and he has little credibility left.
Besides, the ECB should know who they want to replace him by now.
Go for it, ECB. Let's have a new management team and start afresh.
Whoever comes in is going to have to get a grip of Flintoff. His mind is not properly on his game and he might be better rested.
Complain about this postI agree too The one day team just isnt good enough whats going on we dont seem to have the same do or die approach of the aussies and others they dont seem proud to wear the england emblem
Complain about this postHow much practice do they need im sick of hearing the coach and captain saying we will improve the next time .lack of passion lack of application its time for the coach go new ideas and new approach needed. We need someone to get the bowlers to bowl line and length something they have not done for ages pace bowlers bowl too short and cant fine a line. Spin isnt that good either . Id love to see an england team attack play hard . The body language is awful time for a rethink
Looking at the players at the top of Englands order, and the way they played, you wouldn't believe they were even playing the same game as South Africa, Australia, New Zeland and Sri Lanka. These teams set out looking for a score in excess of 300 pretty much regardless of the pitch, while England seem happy to creep toward 250.
There must be another attacking minded top order batsman in England who could have repaced Trescothic. Those taken to the World Cup just don't play with the right attitude to get on top of a bowling attack from the first over.
Complain about this postAgain all i can say is that Aggers is correct. The team have just looked so tired for the whole winter.
They knew it was all to play for today, i'm sorry , but they should of stepped up and been counted. Better to of gone for the win from the start today than to fizzle out like a cheap firework on Nov 5th.
I just worry with the first test being only a month away.
At least we still have some excellent matches still ahead in the World Cup.
Would like to thank for TMS for being able to make even defeat entertaining.
Complain about this postI'm not sure Vaughan even has a place in the test side any more. When did he last score a hundred in ANY form of cricket? Let Strauss have the job and give Vaughan's spot to Cook in the tests. Time for Vaughan to retire to the Sky commentary box. The idea of Fletcher being kept on at all after this tournament is now unthinkable. Even a caretaker coach over the summer would be preferable. The man who perhaps should have got the job is now dead and his murder has been callously trampled over and forgetten by the ICC's officialdom. Warwickshire and SA supporters won't forget Bob.
Complain about this postIts time!!!
Vaughn - who has an inflated opinion of his ability as a one day player; Fletcher - the colonial imposter, he who has never played test cricket or much else for that matter and Graveney - (nepotism is still alive and well in Britain) who was never good enough to play test cricket, but feels he is well qualified to select an international team, must be sacked forthwith.
Lets hope that the ECB does not take the cowards way out.
Complain about this postI'm an Irish Cricket fan but i also follow England closely and i'm dismayed at their fall since the Ashes Series in 2005. This fall was epitimised by their Ashes whitewash in Australia followed by the Commonwealth Bank Series. The English media absolutly slated England throughout their tour of Australia, but as soon as they won three matches they were the best team in the world!! They even tipped them for the world cup!! Aggers is absolutely right, England do need a revamp-get rid of the coach, bring in some up and coming players with experience (possibly Trescothic). But i dissagree with Aggers on the subject of Vaughan. He may not be Englands best player, but he is the only man at this stage to captain England. If Collingwood became captain, England would lose his perforances with both bat and ball.
Complain about this postOne of the most depressing performances i have seen. Outclassed in every sense of the word. Mahmood is not an international class bowler.
Complain about this postI agree with every one of Mr Agnews comments. Collingwood has shown the grit and determination, and will grow into the captaincy. Vaughn has not performed with the bat in a one day for ages, and it is time that the team stopped carrying him.
Some fair points above, but I don't totally agree.
Certainly Vaughan must go as ODI captain and not get a sniff of a chance of getting to 100 internationals and no ton. He shouldn't have been at the World Cup in the first place, or the Commonwealth Bank Series for that matter. He should have been req'd to do more than simply announce his fitness, as his one day record is very poor.
We've effectively been playing with 10 players, no captain is that good that he's not able to
bat or bowl or indeeed field!
I think Duncan Fletcher should go, the ECB have had plenty of time to look for a successor since the Ashes embarassment.
The World Cup performances culminating in today's effort have been equally dreadful, too often the 1,2,3 have batted slowly and not built a platform, the middle order have been under immediate pressure to score quickly. Vaughan set the tempo, everyone who batted with him suffered. Bell's better innings (SL and Australia) were when Vaughan had gone, likewise Strauss's best effort today.
Even today after the previous failures, Fletcher wasn't prepared to change things. Flintoft should have opened with Vaughan at 6, he (Flintoft) might have failed too, but it would have been no great loss. He's batting way too high at 6 otherwise.
Collingwood might be a good shout as one day captain, the only other alternative from the team after pedalogate is Strauss, who did OK last summer.
It's not worth making for the West Indies game, but FWIW in the unlikely event we'd won today I'd have gone for
Bopara (or Flintoft),
Bell,
Pieterson,
Strauss,
Collingwood,
Dalrymple,
Flintoft (or Bopara)
Nixon,
Broad (or Mahmood),
Anderson
Panesar
Where now? well I'd be tempted to have Vaughan prove some form for the West Indies series but I guess that's not feasible with the first test kicking off a month today.
Instead he should be announced as captain for the West Indies series only, and dropped for the India series if he shows no form. Even in test cricket we shouldn't be carrying captain's, certainly the Aussies don't and have dispensed with many showing much better form than Vaughan.
Coach wise, Boycott was right when he called for Fletcher to go before the Ashes. I'd go with Tom Moody, he's not English but done a good job with SL. He made a very canny decision to rest Vaas & Muralitharan against the Aussies yesterday. They are guaranteed to avoid the Aussies in the semis, and if they play them in the final they'll go in with less negatives.
Back to the World Cup, it will be interesting to see how NZ approach their game against the Aussies, after their Hadlee\Chappell series whitewash they ought not be phased by them.
Either way it will be Aussies against either NZ or SL in the final, as you can't see the Aussies batting so negatively against SA. They didn't the first time around, and flayed Pollock in particular.
Complain about this postAs Will Carling once said about a different sport
Complain about this post"This sport is run by old farts" are the ECB to proud or to stupid to learn from the top international teams on how they are run by there organisations both at domestic level and international level.
When will they( IF EVER) reduce the amount of county teams and replace them with regional teams
"IT IS FAR BETTER HAVING A FEW GOOD TEAMS INSTEAD OF A LOT OF AVERAGE ONES"
I agree with Jonathan .The individuals responsible are Mr Vaughan and Mr Fletcher. I dont know on what basis Vaughan managed to come in to the one day team,The selectors should also take some responsibilty for such a lacklustre performance by the English team.I beleive Flintoff should have been the captain of the one day team.
Complain about this postAs I look at the sorry shambles that is the England side at the moment, I wonder how often it is that the national team includes no members at all of the County champions. While I acknowledge that overseas help was a major factor in gaining Sussex two (yes, two) trophies last year, surely it would be normal for at least one of Prior, Yardy, Kirtley or even Adams to have been involved in this tournament. Regardless, it's time to give the off-form likes of Flintoff et al a spell on the sidelines.
Complain about this postVaughan shouldn't have been picked for the world cup at first place. I don't recall him playing any games for Yorkshire after the injury. He was brought back into the squad rather too soon to reduced the captaincy burden from Flintoff and England paid the price heavily. Regular collapse in the top order with Flintoff being out of form threw the whole batting line struggling on every single match. It's time to take a positive approach to the game and follow other country's suits in the opening. Hoping Trescothick is mentally fit enough to play at internation level again, we should give chance to another opening batsman from the county circuit.
Complain about this postAgain, I can't help but agree with everything Jonathan Agnew has said. Vaughan can not be carried any longer, and I think all the batsmen's futures should be in doubt! They have consistently failed to deliver on a regular basis, not just during this tournament but over the last five years (possibly longer).
Collingwood would make a good captain, but in one day cricket I think you have to pick your best eleven then worry about who's captain later (this is not a theory I would apply to test cricket I hasten to add)
As for Fletcher, I think perhaps his time is up, but we need to be very sure we have an equal or better replacement lined up, just look at the fiasco with the England football team! Bob Woolmer would have been the ideal replacement. Not sure who would be any better than Fletcher, who would want the job.
One final point. Alan, I would respectfully disagree with your point about the teams status at test level. England have been rather fortunate in many of their test victories in recent years. They are not a bad team but are they really any better than India, Pakistan, South Africa and possibly New Zealand?
Complain about this postIt is always easy to chirp from the boundary and this is a tournamnet for the world's best to shine...So the sadness is not that we lost to a combative South African team; the sadness is that we were huniliated. That takes an awful lot to recover from. We lack leadership, accountabuility and vision and the time has come to stop pretending we are on the verge of anything other than obliviion. Change the coach, the captain and change the team.
Complain about this postWithout a big hitter to open in Trescothick or Knight (beforehand), England have lacked the firepower to dominate the batting from the start. Then to have a key player in Flintoff being dismissed time and time again when England should be looking to accelerate... You can't play so badly in key parts of the game and then expect results against quality sides.
In terms of bowling, the lack of players who can bowl with either the suffocating control of Pollock and McGrath or the hostility of Tait and Nel was all too evident.
Anyway, the four best teams are (at last!) in the semis. Some real tension to look forward to!
Complain about this postHave to disagree with negative KP comments. the rest of the team should be bolstered by having the leading one day batsmen in their squad and let's face it, every team needs a player like KP. He has balls!
Complain about this postIts not the fault of 1 man, how has KP effected the 'bowling'? Mahmood is just no where near the quality required at this level, and James Anderson is erractic. Why are we still talking over Flintoff's inadequacies as a batsman, play him as a bowler and only expect that from him. it will add depth to the batting by dropping him down the order.
Complain about this postUnfortunately Vaughn is not the kind of batsman that a one day team requires. Lokk at the successes this tournament, from any of the Australian preformances to the trouncing England just received, attack is the beat strategy from the off. Trescothick mustn't be rushed back but should be welcomed with open arms. everybody remember that 50:50 game vs the aussies? if he can recreate that, the batting will automatically improve in confidence.
Most of all, the media must learn not to overhype the English: Disappointment is made worse the bigger the expectation!
What a pathetic shambles.
England won the Ashes by the narrowest margin and we turned them into spoiled brats. Our praise gave them a conceitedness strong enough to mask their insecurities for a short while. The day I saw Flintoff's stupid, drunken face in the newspapers was the day I knew the urn was already on its way back to Oz. Professional sportsmen do not behave that way.
The Aussies are confident, hard-working and mentally strong. Why? Because despite winning everything for the last 15 years, they want to win more ... and yet more. Can you imagine them dining out on just one (flukey) win? No way. It's the kind of thing children do until they grow up to learn better.
Winners know only too well that getting to the top is the easy part. Staying there requires maturity, dedication and desire. 3 things our cricketers (Collingwood excepted) badly lack.
Complain about this postI agree with Aggers, but what about the other poor performers? Flintoff, Strauss et al have all relied on Peterson too often and he is unreliable. Where is the fire and pride? It's all to easy to live off the unusual, fluke results of the CB Trophy and, with hindsight, the 2005 Ashes. I believe we can learn much from the attitude of the Aussies; they play to win. They take pride in wearing the Baggy Green and know they will be picked on current form not reputation. Vaughan should not have been selected; he had little first class cricket and, if it were anyone else, the option would never have been laid before the selectors. So who is to blame? Players? Selectors? Fletcher? All of them? Final question; Should there be separate one-day and test sides?
Complain about this posttimes move on new approach would be a good idea
tbh the cricketers are going the way of the england football team - ie mostly same pick for most matches
some say if not broke.....etc but new blood means different approach and ideas and just maybe more enthusiasm
but as the chaps said on TMS its been a long winter and shame they couldnt carry the commonwealth series form into the Cup.
Complain about this postBeaten in every department.
Complain about this postAggers we salute you. New coach in the making?
You know what the saddest thing is? You just know that SA will completely bottle it in the semis against the Aussies and get thrashed, and as unlikely after today it may seem, I bet the Aussies are glad it's them and not us - they know we can beat them, and they pretty much admitted that this week.
Complain about this postSA seem to be in a "win one, lose one" at the mo and so they should get absolutely thrashed on that form. Saying that I wish them all the luck in the world.
Unbelievable and completely the wrong team mainly the problem it should have been
1. Trescothick
2. Loye
3. Shah
4. Pietersen
5. Collingwood (c)
6. Flintoff
7. Yardy
8. Foster (c)
9. Adil Rashid
10. Plunkett
11. Anderson / Broad
Therefore good batting through (no defending in powerplays for a start)
And accurate tight bowlers and plenty of backup should we need it
Complain about this postIts not the fault of 1 man, how has KP effected the 'bowling'? Mahmood is just no where near the quality required at this level, and James Anderson is erractic. Why are we still talking over Flintoff's inadequacies as a batsman, play him as a bowler and only expect that from him. it will add depth to the batting by dropping him down the order.
Complain about this postUnfortunately Vaughn is not the kind of batsman that a one day team requires. Look at the successes this tournament, from any of the Australian preformances to the trouncing England just received, attack is the best strategy from the off. Trescothick mustn't be rushed back but should be welcomed with open arms. everybody remember that 50:50 game vs the aussies? if he can recreate that, the batting will automatically improve in confidence.
Most of all, the media must learn not to overhype the English: Disappointment is made worse the bigger the expectation!
Complain about this postwell...i think the problem comes down to fundamental mentality. just watch G. Smith bat...or Ricky Ponting.....and then have a look at Vaughan...or Flintoff at the crease. Our players always seem to be nervous in big occasions. where other teams rise...the england team tends to step forward cautiously...not sure they should really be there! And while i am at it...i will say the same for the football team. What is needed is to instill some of the agressive confidence in the players...and i wonder what player in the england side has that?? and he is english? hmmmmmmmm
In my view vaughan should 'nt been played he should have been dropped,flintoff looked out form through out the world cup,and so did vaughan,and also andrew straus shoulds have been opening batsman through out the world cup the england team did'nt look like they could beat the South Africa.I am sorry England looked terriable.We need bit of passion and postives ideas and some aggressive play if we are ever going to be a good one day side,we did beat Australia twice before the world cup.It is time ECB looked for a another coach.We are a decent test team we beat Australia to win ashes in 2005.KP is the best one day cricketer that england has,and untill find aother KP in the english we will always strugle has one cricket team.I hope things can better.
Complain about this postAppalling and embarassing.
Complain about this post9 runs in the first 6 overs,S.Africa had over 70.
a new captain a new manager and 6 or 7 new young players is whats required.
remove the fear and apprehension.
I agree with Aggers. Apart from anything else, our innings was downright boring and yes, sadly comical. Their innings was entertaining. Vaughan has to go, no way out of it - he could've batted his way clear but it's useless now to try and talk his way out of a self-made mess. Those opening overs without score and all that elaborate forward-defensive posturing English openers think looks so cool - humiliating, laughable. Please resign, Michael - fight your way back later if you can. What a dreadful day.
Complain about this postCompletely agree with Aggers, and echoing some people's posts here. I felt ashamed to watch the game, even to support them.
I completely agree with comments as to how much we miss Trescothick, who has been our most prolific limited overs batsmen in recent times.
We are in dire need of a strike bowler as well. And there is only one name I can think of. Who has been missing, and most needed during the winter - Simon Jones. If he hadn't been dogged with injury, I would imagine he would have been in the ashes squad. Agressive, accurate, and know how to hold a bat.
As former England cricketers have said, its time for a major clean out with due attention paid to one day cricket.
Complain about this postYesterday I became a father for the second time with the birth of my first son.
Complain about this postI had wished to mark this major event by telling him in years to come that this was the day that England shook off the fear of losing and finally found the will to win. Erm........
......Sorry son looks like you have just experienced what I fear is the first in a very long line of disappiontments when supporting English cricket. Never mind he has long spinner fingers. I wonder want odds I'd get for him playing for Englang in 25 years. He couldn't do much worst than todays sorry effort. I still love cricket, I just hate it when England are involved.
The attitude has to change. The body language from everyone from the coach and captain down is negative and the entire team seem unable to accept personal responsibility in the same way that over paid prima donnas such as Cole (A.) and Ferdinand (R.& A.) go round a football pitch thinking the world owes them a living.
Watching third raters such as Sajid Mahmood and Jimmy Anderson strutting around and appearing to blame everyone except themselves is frankly embarrasing and the obsession with throwing the ball at the wicketkeeper after a shot has been played gently to them is pointless and laughable. And don't get me started on Paul Nixon's "encouragements". Who is he trying to kid?
Complain about this postEngland are just a very very poor one day team. it's all been said but Vaughan is not good enough his Yorkshire and England averages are rubbish and only Flintoff knows why he describes himself as a batter who can bowl a bit......I think the drink is killing his small brain...
Every other team in world cricket takes advantage of the power plays England are stuck in the dark ages, yes they miss Trescothick but there batting is woeful and sad to say the "booing" was deserved..
Bye bye Vaughan, Mahmood, Nixon, Strauss blood some youngsters and move forwards,, Ian Botham has got this spot on.........change is needed and quickly..........
Complain about this postcannot believe how poor we were expected some fight none came, fletcher vaughan mahmood and anderson must go not good enough broad onions and colly new capt must happen next month when we start the one dayers with the windies.
Complain about this postWell, I do agree that Michael Vaughan hasn't scored much and is not much of a one day batsman. However, he is the best captain England has produced in a long haul. He should have followed the advice of Shane Warne and drop himself down the batting order; may be at five.
Complain about this postAnother issue is why only blame Vaughan, who else has scored in the world cup. Beside Peiterson and Nixon there hasn't been any other batsmen who has played a productive innings. I have always said that Andrew Flintoff is a bit overrated as I just can't recall him playing a valuable innings in the odi(s). May be he hasn't played any or it has certainly been a while. Drop him to seven or eight and bring Nixon up the order in his place.
Absolutely right! Time for a change. I do not blame the individual players, not even Mahmood – who needs time and guidance and a lot of hard work and should not have been chosen before he was the finished article…that has been abundantly clear for a while, but that is not his fault.
By Contrast, Stuart Broad may have been able to offer more to England in the same way that a young Jimmy Anderson did 4 years ago.
Anyway…this is not the issue. It is England’s poor batting and poor strategy that has cost them. Trescothic is a big miss and every team needs a player of his calibre and style at the top of the order in one day cricket. That was not to be, but why was Mal Loye not even selected? The strategy has been wrong, England have tried to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. They have played conservatively because they did not have the players to play extravagantly!
This policy has then confounded those players who do have some one day ability and made them timid and introverted…everybody is terrified of being accused of throwing away their wickets…which makes them guarded for 40 balls, and then panicked into doing exactly that!
Confidence is gone and that is a management problem.
Duncan Fletcher has been excellent for England in the past; they have good players in both forms of the game, but they are in crisis and it is time to move on.
For English team sport, great success leads to complacency, failure, lack of continued ambition and underperformance. As with the England rugby team, if the players that achieved the greatest success (in 2005) cannot be motivated to continue striving for improvement (as all Australian winners do!) then lets get them out and find some real winners who want to win every game! Not just one big event and then retire to the high life.
If sport is about the taking part, then well done England…very gentlemanly! If sport is about winning; let’s have some real aggression, passion, fight, needle and ambition to be THE best. Just watch Australia and see what its all about.
Complain about this postI have never got the impression that Mr Agnew would ever agree with me, but his last comments "Change is necessary and unavoidable" agrees with me in its entirety
Complain about this postIn English cricket and decisioning making, we are extremely poor.
Yeah right. The TITANIC had more chance in changing course to miss the iceberg than we have in sacking the central contracted pocket filled excuse for a cricket team.
Please do not bring out Michael Vaughan and his sad words of "we will do better next time"
Nah we wont ....
Deep sigh
Vaughan was very selfish in insisting on bulldozing his way back into the one day side after his injury, and the England management let him. Even without his recent injury he has a poor record at one day cricket and shouldn't really have been in the team. But he was more worried about the possible threat to his test captaincy that another one day captain might have posed than he was about the wellbeing of the England one day team. That is deplorable.
Complain about this postVaughan was very selfish in insisting on bulldozing his way back into the one day side after his injury, and the England management let him. Even without his recent injury he has a poor record at one day cricket and shouldn't really have been in the team. But he was more worried about the possible threat to his test captaincy that another one day captain might have posed than he was about the wellbeing of the England one day team. That is deplorable.
Complain about this postAt last it's over for England -what a relief for the rest of us! For whatever reason the players - especially the so-called batsmen - seemed to be under the delusion that they are very good - when results show the opposite. Too many players have too much to say about themselves - most of which have been proved wrong. Lets start afresh, a strong captain for a start. What about Adams-he has excellent credentials but has been ignored by the England selectors. I feel it's the same old story- favoured players from favoured counties. The old school-tie syndrome. Lets have less hot-air from individual players, with the captain the spokesman for the media. etc etc etc
Complain about this postEngland's one day side are to say the least non
Complain about this postaggressive....so WHY would they, after winning the toss, decide to bat first and then perform like
they were waiting for Christmas to turn up ?Except for Strauss and Ravi have we ever seen such tepid batting anywhere. The team should be ashamed of themselves. Collingwood would
I feel sure make an excellent captain of the one
day team... due to his long experience of this format....AND he surely deserves to be picked for the team anyway for the combination of his fielding, bowling and batting..... and for his absolute determination. Also... Strauss seems
to be the man with a temperament for the captaincy and the job could easily improve his
batting performances. He should be batting as Smith did today... go for his shots, which he does
but he needs to score a lot more runs in front of the wicket. What on earth has happened to
Freddie ? He was and I hope will be again...the best and most exciting cricketeer in the World.
I couldn't disagree more.
Why is change necessary and unavoidable?
I think we need to question the very mantra we all abide by when our national sporting teams are knocked out of a tournament; namely that we have under-acheived and therefore need to change in order to do better next time.
What realistic chance did England have of winning the world cup?
The answer is two fold: England had a team with the capability to win the tournament, but have not (albeit in brief cameo fashion in the CB series) shown that capability consitently. Most crucially however is the fact that 4 other teams (AUS, NZ, SA, SL) have, can and do demonstrate that very same capability to win tournaments.
So is it fair to conclude that for England to stand a chance of winning, they would have to play to the best of their potential in 90% of games and all of the 'top 4' teams play like, well, England eventually did? And this equation does not take into account the freak nature at which PAK and IND were knocked out! Had it not been for that, we would conceivably have finished 7!!
Vaughan does struggle in ODI's, even he wouldn't argue that point. But we are not in a position where we have the resources to replace him with an opener of genuine ODI credentials. We are playing with the best 15 men England has to offer and we've come up short. That they are the best 15 men in the country is a subjective view held by the selectors admitidly. But they are the people we entrust with the responsibility of selection and therefore because it is their professional job, know more about English cricketers then even aggers, let alone the Great British public.
In short, just because we didn't win doesn't mean wholesale change is necessary. We didn't win because we are not good enough. Incremental change and improvements are the only way we can move forward in ODI's. We just don't have the quality waiting in the wings to take over.
Aggers, would appreciate your comment on this chain of thought...
Complain about this postLets look at the positives...
Monty doubled his number of balls faced in ODI cricket from 24 to over 50 WHAT AN EFFORT!!!!
Complain about this postOk looking at how we batted: we were awful! Disjointed, timid, fearful of what the South African bowlers might do to us and not focusing on what we could do to them. And it's not just been today it's been every game against serious oppostion, even IRELAND!!! We were something like 27-1 after 10 overs and that was after two 9/10 run overs on the previous two. And in ODI cricket getting a good start, especially when batting, is crucial and the first 15/20 overs have cost England crucial starts at crucial times in crucial games. Whereas South Africa or Australia would be, even if they lost a couple of early wickets, 100/110 for 2 and looking at possibly 300+, we are 60/70 for 2 thinking, and I know that we've all thought this, "240 or 250 could be a good score on this wicket, with a couple of early wickets", and it isn't good enough!
England badly miss an attacking opener or top order player, Marcus Trescothick or even Malachy Loye would give England good, fast starts and they would be, even if Loye was out for 30 or 40 off 35-40 balls it's a start, and it is something for KP or Paul Collingwood to work with and build a challenging total.
I think it would be very harsh to criticise Kevin Pietersen or to some extent Ian Bell for the way they've carried England's top six during this World Cup. Sure, KP may be out to a lousy shot but to expect him to go to an unbeaten run-a-ball hundred is unreasonable. Flintoff is basically in pretty shocking nick and lack of form is basically something that happens and I don't think he should be overly messed about with, just given some matches for Lancashire to give himself some confidence and hopefully some form. I have no problems with his bowling at all.
Paul Nixon has had a short but sweet run but I don't think there is an overly outstanding reason for keeping him in the side. Picking a younger (that's narrowed it down) and hopefully more talented keeper such as Prior would be a good thing to do. I am purposely not mentioning Bopara or Collingwood because they will surely be part of English cricket for the forseeable future.
On to the bowlers and Sajid Mahmood in particular. He can bowl 90mph (allegedly) and has the variation and unpredictability that perhaps our attack needs. However, he isn't suited to ODI cricket at all and needs to concentrate on Test Cricket until he can add some accuracy and discipline to his arsenal.
Finally, on to the wider issues, I think that Vaughan will resign the ODI captaincy and whereas there are no perfect candidates I hope that Collingwood gets the job only because there is little threat to Vaughan as Test captain or the dressing room (they are good mates). Hopefully, Tom Moody, who has done a very good job with Sri Lanka will become the next England coach, as I think that Duncan Fletcher will almost certainly jump ship before having to walk the plank.
England need to acknowledge the importance of ODI's and overhaul their one-day team. I think everybody got carried away by the series win in Australia and the team travelled to the WC with a false sense of security.
Complain about this postOn the plus side this WC, Bopara has been a good find and so has been Nixon (despite age not being on his side).
Barring Flintoff, the bowling side looks pretty ordinary. Monty does not fit into the one-day scheme of things. Saj Mahmood is too erratic and his fielding display today was atrocious. Anderson has consistently avoided using his broken hand whilst fielding.
The batting department is an enigma! Clearly, Vaughan is struggling and the onus on upping the run-rate solely rests on Pieterson with Flintoff off-colour. The middle order looks reasonable with KP, FF, Bopara and Collingwood but the top order needs atleast one attacking opening batsman.
England - India series promises to be an exciting prospect this summer, what with both teams looking to erase memories of an ordinary (read "disastrous" if you are an Indian supporter) World Cup campaign. I hope we will see some fresh faces in both teams.
Aggers, on commentary you said, in a funny sought of way, this is the best thing that could have happened to England, and I could not agree more. Maybe this will make us change our approach, attitude & personnel, with Fletcher & Graveney Stepping down, and Vaughan Retiring from ODI circket, aswell as having to score runs for Yorkshire to retain his place in the Test side. Nixon has actually been a bright spark, in a damp squib of a world cup, but we must look to the future.Prior would be my choice. If we use this as a positive, as Australia did at the end of the 2005 Ashes series, to come back better and stronger, this may be a big turning point in English cricket. If we drift along as the ECB tend to do, this could be a sign of what's to come.
Complain about this postVaughan was very selfish in insisting on bulldozing his way back into the one day side after his injury, and the England management let him. Even without his recent injury he has a poor record at one day cricket and shouldn't really have been in the team. But he was more worried about the possible threat to his test captaincy that another one day captain might pose than he was about the wellbeing of the England one day team. That is deplorable.
Complain about this postDon't agree with MJ's criticism of Pieterson. Its a fashionable English trait to trash those with flare. Pieterson has obviously had to tailor his interviews to keep emphasing the team incessantly for people such as yourself. He is not the problem. Nor by the way has Sachin been for the Indian team - it never stopped Dravid performing nor did it stop India having a golden period with their batting when briefly they challenged Aussie dominance.
Aggers analysis is spot on. Struass is classy enough - just has some current issues. But Mahmood and Vaughan are not up to it. Bell is only just good enough (comfortably slower and weaker than any on the Aussie top 6). Anderson is merely OK overall.
Suggestions? Perhaps Tres is not ready for long tours but could he play just odi's for a while? Simon Jones? Broad? Lewis?
Complain about this postWe havebeen protecting the reputation of the Engalnd players too long. There needs to be a root and branch analysis of the performance of all players and include only on performance criteria and not misplaced loyalty. Flintoff needs to understand his posiytion is purely performance driven. The captaincy should go to the best leader/tactician. Young platers mus be included and given a chance. They could not do worse.
Complain about this postNever mind feelings let's deliver results. The followers of Welsh and English cricket deserve more for their loyalty and money.
This was an accident waiting to happen. The outlook of English cricket has been too negative and selfish since the Ashes victory. Rather than build on that series win, the whole game in this country has taken a step backwards. The players have played and acted as spoilt children since that famous day at the Oval. Everything, from the ridiculous award of the OBEs/MBEs to all players through to the WAGs getting free trips to Australia has been wrong. Troy Cooly was let go too easily and replaced by Kevin Shine - the invisible man. It should have been Strauss instead of Flintoff for skipper and it seemed to me that Fletcher and Vaughan really had no idea on tactics for the World Cup. Take today for example, Vaughan was pathetic in the field from the first ball of the SA innings showing no imagination or attacking flair with his field placings. And lets not talk about the batting!.
It then depresses me to see players like Shane Warne and Justin Langer (excellent ex-test players) taking up captaincy roles at county level. Throw into the pot ex-players like Darren Gough, Mark Butcher et al and you wonder how young English talent can shine through and gain experience of captaincy. And the amount of foreign players in the game is a disgrace. The only potential bright sparks are the emergence of players like Stuart Broad and the return of Simon Jones. And lets hope James Benning, Nick Compton and Ali Cook kick on during 2007.
The game is in financial rude health at the moment but it is time for English cricket in general to take a good look at themselves. And that also goes for the likes of Andrew Flintoff, Michael Vaughan, Steve Harmison and Andrew Strauss. I also (maybe harshly) also include Kevin Pietersen who isn't converting good scores into great ones - mind you, he always comes in under pressure so maybe I'II let him off !
Complain about this postSpot on Aggers! Change is needed from top to bottom - we can't sink much lower than this winter's performances.
I for one am relieved that England didn't make the semis - that's one less day we'll have to watch England's finest play like schoolboys coached by a Polish supply teacher (with due apologies to any Polish cricketers out there who would probably give England a tough test right now).
Do we really have to play the Windies on Saturday? If there truly was a caring God there would be torrential rain all weekend. At least I hope the authorities don't fill the ground with schoolchildren. There is enough unhappiness in the world already.
Complain about this postI totally agree, change is needed! England should review their tactics no more of this borring blocking get in there at the start of the innings and make the bowlers uncomfortable. Englands one day team has test players in it not one day specialists the team needs to look at the C&G trophey and 20 twenty cup for the players who specialise in the shorter form of the game. England need a openning pair who can lift them, they require trescothick back and possibly move KP up the order. Preperation for big tounaments needs to be better, an example is New Zealand who played 2 test in 12 months and endless one dayers. Is it right for Flecther to go? yes it is maby Woolmer would have been a possibility but unfortunatly there now seems to be no other options. England are in a dire situation someone needs to take it by the throat and solve it!
Complain about this postWhy on earth did they leave Mal Loye out he had the ability to get runs on the board. Get ride of fletcher and vaughn. Bring Beefy into the English set up , he had balls, not like this pathetic lot.
Complain about this postI agree. Michael Vaughan's one-day batting has failed to stand up to scrutiny and it's high time he is dispensed with, however good a Test batsmen he undoubtedly is. However, I can't help thinking that this is more hope than expectation unless Vaughan falls on his sword as I cannot see Fletcher or the selection committee making any decision of this sort any time soon.
Collingwood for captain is a good shout. He's experienced, mature (unlike another Northern all-rounder I could mention) and commands instant respect among his team. He is admittedly rather short on international captaincy experience but there's only one way he's going to get it, and I hope that the selectors have the vision to throw him in sooner rather than later.
But also, I sincerely hope that the bowlers get some bowling in this summer. Sajid Mahmood in particular needs overs - he is unquestionably a diamond but at the moment he is as rough as they come. Maybe I'm sounding old-fashioned (at the age of 19? Please no!) but surely a season out of the England squad and bowling every day for Lancashire is no more than common sense. Ditto Anderson, who still doesn't seem to have reclaimed his early magic.
Complain about this postI HAVE READ YOUR COMMENTS OF THOSE BLOGGERS WHO HAVE CALLED FOR CHANGE. YOU ALL MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE IN THINKING THAT THE ENGLAND SET UP INCLUDING ALL SELECTORS LISTEN TO ANYONE BECAUSE OF THEIR ARROGANCE, IT AS ALWAYS BEEN SO AND IT WILL ALWAYS REMAIN SO.
FOR OVER 50 YEARS ITS BEEN THE SAME, ONLY ON ONE OCCASION DID THEY BEND TO THE MEDIA AND THAT WAS THE BASIL D'OLIVERA INCIDENT.
THEY DO NOT LISTEN AND WHY SHOULD THEY ?
THEY ARE EXPERTS THEY KNOW BETTER THAT US.
THE DAY THEY LISTEN TO THE FANS WILL BE A FIRST.
THE OFFICIAL LINE WILL BE, THE PLAYERS WERE BEATEN BY A GREAT SIDE AND WE DID NOT PLAY AS WELL AS WE COULD HAVE DONE, WE WILL GO BACK AND REVIEW OUR PERFORMANCE AND WE WILL PLAY BETTER NEXT TIME, WE OWE IT TO THE FANS.
DOES THAT SOUND FAMILIAR ? IT SHOULD WE HAVE BEEN HEARING IT FOR FAR TOO LONG.
Complain about this postGreat points... particularly on the start of Englands innings.
It seems not too long ago that Marcus Trescothick and Nick Knight opened the innings. I remember being impressed by Knight on replays coming down the pitch taking the seamers on and hitting over bowlers the head for six. Next ball he'd feint it again, the bowler dropped short, he'd rock back and pull for four.
One day international tactics. Where was any of this kind of intent and thought from our top order batsmen in any game in this world cup? Security at the top is critical and we never got it right here - it just shows how critical a reasonably consistent enforcer at the top of the innings is in this form of the game as a solid start significantly takes the pressure off the batsmen to come.
Complain about this postCorrection Johnathon: Vaughan WAS (not is) a shrewd tactician and good leader. He has been out of the game for too long and it showed.
Complain about this postShrewd tactician? Flintoff should have batted at three throughout the tournament, the opening batsmen should have shown much more urgency, why was Mahmood ever given a cap (Flintoff should have opened the bowling today for example) why have Harmison and Hoggard been allowed to duck out of one dayers instead of getting to grips with the requirements of the game....the list gets longer and longer.
Good leader? Vaughan has shown himself arrogant and detached from reality by using each game as a personal net session instead of being ruthless (a la Denness in Australia) and dropping himself.
After each World Cup since 1996 we have heard the same old cliches (basically 'don't worry, we'll get it right next time') and every time since we have seen such feeble and utterly embarrasing performances you wonder how much further behind England can fall. This competition has marked a new low for England and ensured that we will be a one-day basket case for a while yet while the complacent thinking and cosy top-brass set up remain.
Surely the point is not that Vaughan should be dropped, but more to the point why he was even selected in the first place... a total mystery. Never before has a player done so little to merit a place in an international team.... He's not even good enough for the Scottish team!
Complain about this postWhy was Mal Loye picked in Aus and then dropped for Vaughan for the World Cup????
Too late Aggers. Vaughan should have been dropped long ago...too much misplaced loyalty from Fletcher to a man whose ODI average would get him nowhere near the team if he were not the full test captain.
Complain about this postThis crushing defeat was just what was needed for English cricket - it has laid bare the crack-covered walls that were so expertly masked following the CB series win over a disjointed and disinterested Australian side that had their minds on other things - namely, the World Cup.
England never deserved to be in with any chance of making the last four, and as Aggers rightly says this was only down to us taking liberties against Bangladesh.
I am now looking forward to toppling the Aussies from their perch in St Lucia - and for an SA versus SL final. Though I'd like something a little more comfortable than a one-wicket win and Malinga four-for fest!
Complain about this postBring on Mourinho!
At least we can be boring, and win!
Complain about this postYou said it this morning Aggers on Radio 4 that all we had to do was sit back and keep our fingers crossed. I don't think I have ever heard those words used before on any English international team game - and how right you were.
Complain about this postthe win in the VB series was but a minor blip when the australian team regrouped and rested players...and fielded a 50% strength team.
England did not raise the bar to beat them
Do not kid yourself, England desewrve to lose in the World Cup and most of the players contracts deserve to be torn up
Complain about this postQuite right. I'm pleased, too, that there was no late rally by England that might have, as so often before, diluted the poverty of this cricket team.
I think we need a nasty man in charge: a hard man. We've had the soft and I'm sure very charming (in his own sweet way) man in Fletcher, but having kicked the team off the bottom of the pile, he doesn't appear to know quite what to do next.
What's that Irish bloke's name who played for Man Utd and now coaches Sunderland? He'd do.
And bring back Strauss as captain. Please.
Toodle pip.
Complain about this postMJ
So Englands losing today was because Pietersen failed.Didn't take long for him to get the blame.
He did fail today and consquently we only scored 150ish .
All this guy has done for the past two years in both forms of the game is start as our best player and remain our best player. We would not have won the ashes in 2005 without him. H ehas improved his game and played well in evey series we have had.
If the rest of the England team cannot play with him in the team then they need to grow up these are highly paid professionals not the local junior school team.
We lost today because everybody failed.
We won the toss and decided to bat. Our top order scored 12 runs of 7 overs.
We select a captain who was not match fit. Flintof is not the force he was two years ago and should just be selected as a bowler. Our bowlers need to go away and learn about line and length.
I agree with jonathan Agnew. Fletcher has to go and so does Vaughen. However I think we will have to select a new captain full stop for both forms of the game . No other team has a different captain for ODIs and tests it won't work.
We need to look to the future. Select a captain who can perform in both disciplines who does not have to many roles already in the team who is young enough to lead us for the next four or five years.
I'D go for Pietersen
Why
because he works at his game
he is honest about how we perform
he is not to close to his team mates and a good captain cannot be everybodies Mate
He has a tough skin and answers his critics time and time again with his performances
He does not go out drinking when on England duty
The other thing that needs to change is how much international cricket we play. These players have played every month for more than 12 months. If we only played one team in the summer the players could play for their counties more and if out of touch find some form.
Complain about this postI can't help but notice that when England beat Australia at the end of the summer KP was not there nor was Vaughan. But Plunkett was and Flintoff had to perform.
Complain about this postHaving been one of the unlucky people to have spent money following England through their Ashes tour from November, it is thoroughly depressing to watch what we have just witnessed in the world cup game today against South Africa.
Complain about this postBut despite the appalling performances, is it suprising!
Having left England in November, the team embarked on a 4 month tour, which then gave players two weeks off before the world cup. Having performed poorly for 5 and a half months we are then expecting them to pick themselves up and perform again in a test series against the West Indies on May 17th. They will then be in action against West Indies and India until Setember the 8th when they will embark on another tour to Sri Lanka on Setember 25th till christmas. No wonder Trescothick is suffering from stress! Even the footballers get the summer off!!!
Yours a very disappointed, depressed England cricket fan!!
Inept.
No pride.
Not good enough.
Same gutless performances as produced by football and rugby sides.
Are the English World champions at spectating rather than competing?
Complain about this postNo one has mentioned to absurd playing schedule that only Team England had set out for them by the ICC / ECB administrators.
No other international sportsmen in ANY sport with genuine ambition would undertake the following programme -
My exception that proves this rule incidentally is England Rugby Union their results and selection issues look pretty similar:
a 5 test Ashes series in 2005,
followed by a long winter on the sub continent followed by a full English summer,
a 5 Test Ashes Series in Oz,
the OD series in OZ
plus a little bolt on extra....The World Cup.
Surprise surprise...where is the spine of the team....well here they are...
S Jones - long term injury
Tresco - long term injury
Vaughan - long term injury
Harmy - mentally shot
Fred - physically shot and under the stress of captaincy / injury and schedule I fear now mentally shot too.
The only players with any credit from this winter have not undertaken this schedule...
Pietersen - recharged batteries pre world cup due to injury
Collingwood - has until this last year had little Test Cricket...
Monty, Bopara and Nixon - recent selections....
At this level 90% of the performance is between the ears...and the guys are too knackered and more than likely too bored with cricket and travelling to raise their games and compete.
Complain about this postI totally agree with Aggers. But going back to the Ashes 2005 and the build-up to that series, i feel that this was the time when england reached its peak, both in tests and one-day cricket. Flintoff was fully fit and was able to inspire players into good performances of their own, gough was still doing it and harmison probably had what turned out to be his purple patch. But i think this team is overrated unfortunately, or they try to overrate themselves at least. Sure, pietersen is a class batsmen and yes, perhaps his best time in terms of what he did for the team in an england shirt was when he was coming into the team and didnt have that sense of arrogance that meant his fellow players began to rely on him to get the runs.
Complain about this postBut without trescothick and a fully-fit flintoff (who was no doubt brought back too early and has perhaps meant we will no longer see the best of him), england are not going to be up there until the new generation of broad, simon jones (when fit), prior/davies, cook come through properly, and a bigger pool of quality players. Vaughan had that special year, but has returned to the vaughan of old and has to be dropped from ODIs too. I think there is hope for this team, but it will take a few years yet, under a new coach!
I can't see the ECB doing anything about it to be honest though. Even after all this they'll still insist that England were at the fault of misfortune.
Complain about this postmahmood's misfield on the rope was the most hilarious moment on tv this year and was typical of england performance...he just could not be bothered to bend down any further....and a golden duck as well..surely they have to drop everyone but KP, collers and bopara
Complain about this postEverything that is wrong with the England team today was shown in the first eight overs of each innings. Engla 9 for 1 SA 80 for 1.
This team is incapable of adapting to the modern one day game. The best one day players such as Loye and Maddy are left behind while the centrally contracted players reap the reward of having made it and not having to perform.
The team should be picked on current form not on who has cost us £250,000 a year decided mid summer
Complain about this postI completely agree with Aggers. England believed they were invincible after winning the Ashes but failed to realise that unless every individual works as hard ,as Paul Nixon has shown by example, previous triumphs mean nothing. The selection of players who cannot live up to their resposibilities and believe their hyped up images has contributed to a "It'll be alright on the night"attitude.
Complain about this postWhat we see is a bunch of overpaid , undisciplined underacheivers led by Duncan Fletcher who apparently see little wrong.
I suggest someone gets real, give players ,who whilst they may not have the sme "ability" as current England players, will at least Fight for the right to wear the England Cap
It's time to get rid of Fletcher. We need someone who can motivate the players. Fletcher's time selection is poor. We have some talented players get someone who can develop them into a cihesive team.
GET FLETCHER OUT HE's THE BIG WEAKNESS
Complain about this postSave your passion and writing skills, Aggers. Graveney has already defended Vaughn. So nothing much is really going to happen. England's World Cup fiasco will be regarded by the authorities as a "little bit" of a problem. There will be, in the true English style, a bit of tinkering here and a bit of tinkering there.
Change the selectors, get a new captain, and get a new coach.....call for drastic action, no way. Not on your life. The old boy network will not allow major surgery to go ahead.
On several occassions, radio TMS cricket commentators said that the English team looked tired and complained about the gruelling winter schedule. So did the Aussies. In fact, they had a worse winter schedule than England. How is it that they are unbeaten in the World Cup?
In an year's time, you will be writing the same kind of blog again, making the same kind of points. Carry on Tinkering, England.
Complain about this postI can't help but notice that when England beat Australia at the end of the summer KP was not there nor was Vaughan. But Plunkett was and Flintoff had to perform.
Complain about this postGoing back to my previous post...bowlers win you matches. England won the ashes and the series prior to that because they had a world-class bowling attack all in form and the form of their lives. There is definately potential there for years to come,. but not in mahmood, anderson needs county matches, and flintoff needs to rest and hopefully return to full fitness, yet i doubt he ever will recover from all his injuries. Broad will be a star and panesar will get better, and we will be there or there abouts in having a confident team if we have a good set of bowlers as well as pietersen and cook and others there
Complain about this postSo depressed by that awful display!
You could replace half of that team with Hick, Ramprakash, Loye, Solanki and instantly get a better batting display.
Surprised Vaughan hasn't retired from one-day cricket yet.
Complain about this postIt must be possible for Fletcher to be replaced in time for most of the summer action. It would be quite wrong for him to remain in place any longer. A fresh eye is needed, so someone from outside the current set up should be the new coach - certainly not Moores. Woolmer would have been the right man
Complain about this postThe approach of England's batsmen has rightly been criticised, but more worrying is the lack of basic skills. Players such as Anderson are worse players than when they first came on the scene despite the time and money invested in them. It seems to make no difference whether they spend time with England or their counties. Is it poor coaching, weak character, or something else?
Regarding the feeblenes of England's top-order batsmen, why on earth did the selectors not consider Alistair Brown of Surrey, one of the most devastating one-day openers in England? In his last match for England he scored a century, but has never been selected again. If Paul Nixon can be picked at his age, why not Brown?
Complain about this postis there room on the aer ligus flight?
Complain about this postSave your passion and writing skills, Aggers. Graveney has already defended Vaughn. So nothing much is really going to happen. England's World Cup fiasco will be regarded by the authorities as a "little bit" of a problem. There will be, in the true English style, a bit of tinkering here and a bit of tinkering there.
Change the selectors, get a new captain, and get a new coach.....call for drastic action, no way. Not on your life. The old boy network will not allow major surgery to go ahead.
On several occassions, radio TMS cricket commentators said that the English team looked tired and complained about the gruelling winter schedule. So did the Aussies. In fact, they had a worse winter schedule than England. How is it that they are unbeaten in the World Cup?
In an year's time, you will be writing the same kind of blog again, making the same kind of points. Carry on Tinkering, England.
Complain about this postthe weakest link in the england side is michael vaughan.
Complain about this postWhat a disgraceful performance, I have wasted my time watching that load of rubbish. SA deserved their victory, through Aggression and bullying.
I think they deserved not to win the world cup, based on the performances over the last four years.
Changes have to made from management right through the players. Fletcher should go and replaced by John Wright, Geoff Boycott or Tom Moody. Coaches who actually have an idea about one day cricket.
Players who are over thirty who can't contribute should be kicked out of the team and replaced by younger identified talent such as (Cook e.t.c), they should be selected and given the time to developed and not dropped after a couple one dayers. Split the captaincy, with Collingwood or Strauss given the job. It has worked when Steve Waugh was replaced by Ricky Ponting.
Players such as Broad, Bopara, Panesar and KP should form the core of the team. By the time the next world cup arrives the average age should be between 26-28.
Complain about this posthi there im a very very disappointed fan and i am totally disgusted as to the way our players performed. now listen to this mr graveney you pick your best one day players not test or four day players when the mind set is that you should defend. if you look at australia and the other three teams you will see that they have batsmen who get after the bowlers straight away. we have those sort of players but they are not in the england squad. it is about time you got your act together and pick natural one day players ie ronnie irani and mike yardy mmm wonder what happened to him he was one our best players last summer but you and your colleagues overlooked him. we cant wait until the next world cup you have to do something now.
Complain about this postbrian
brighton
The obvious problems with England's batting approach suggest it was a mistake for Loye not to be in the squad.
As for Tresco...what a miss. Though personally I'd be happy to see him making big tons in country cricket for a while (like the one last week) before he starts worrying about the sorry international scene again.
Also...the West Indies match would now seem to be a massive game.
Complain about this postI believe there should be an enquiry into how a failed one day coach and a failure as a one day captain/one day batsman were allowed to lead England into this world cup. But the enquiry should be made not into Fletcher and Vaughan but into the ECB itself. For all those pundits and players who said four games to victory were as delusional as Sven or even Graham Taylor. Vaughan, Bell and Strauss should never be allowed to play for the national team's one day XI again. Personally I would try at least one or both of the best 20/20 openers this summer and let them play all the following 12 months one day games. Flintoff should bat at 8 or 9. I'm glad its all over we played four test nations and lost all four. This was probably one of English sport's worst hour's and only 20 months since the ashes glory. Shane Warne for the supremo job but as he's a winner and with the boys from the MCC in charge dont hold your breath!
Complain about this postI cant believe some poms arrogance that guy Steve is a classic example stating England would have won the World Cup with a little support. That kind of thinking has gotten you to where you are right now. NOWHERE. The game is a team gameand no one is bigger than the team.
Complain about this postI'm looking forward to four years of cobbled together one day teams and a similar England effort at the next world cup.
The CB series win was the worst thing to happen to England. If they had not made the CB finals they would have made some radical changes for the world cup.
I can't beileve they kept playing Flintoff at six when his batting was shot. They should have tried moving the batting order around.
England are such a bunch of cowards. I'd rather they were 30 all out than see them tediously cobble together 210 whuch seemed to be their batting strategy.
I suppose it's on to the English summer now - which will be watched by on TV by 19 people as the ECB sold all the live cricket to Sky.
Complain about this postGoing into detail player-by-player to see where it went wrong:
Vaughan - has almost destroyed the fine reputation he established as a player, as a captain and as a spokesperson for the team. Something happened between Australia and the Caribbean where he went from being the only one prepared to admit things had gone horribly wrong in Oz (Flintoff still the worst captain to ever attend an England press conference) to the man who forever felt England were "one good performance away". It never came and surely he must announce his retirement from ODIs now. Concentrate on the Test stuff he must do, but most importantly he needs runs. And soon.
Strauss - The man to miss out due to lack of form, since coming back has looked to be playing himself back into form. No real long term concerns, should be made captain of England's ODI side following Vaughan's expected retirement.
Bell - So much promise, yet so eternally disappointing. May have a real challenge on his hands in keeping his place in both forms of the game, but probably just about safe after consideration. Needs to get a ODI ton, as well as a hundred against a top Test side.
Joyce - Clearly not ready for this stage yet and in terms of his game may end up enjoying more success in the Test format. Still unlucky to be dropped, mainly due to the fact that it was either him or the captain for the chop. Would Loye have been a better bet?
Pieterson - Quite simply, so far the best England player it is actually quite frightening. All the silly grumbles (selfish, conceited, not a team player) still don't hide the fact that he is one of the best players in the game right now and that England should be proud to have him, even if he does at times come across as a bit of a prat. One day a side is going to be on the end of a very big score, a big double or even triple hundred. And they won't necessarily be a minnow...
Collingwood - Thoroughly admirable bloke, will stay as a key player in both formats, make him vice captain in ODIs. May be required to do a bit more bowling in Tests as well.
Bopara - Something of a find, like the cut of his gib. Useful bowler (ask Mike Hussey), gutsy middle order batsman, may be challenging for a Test place come the summer.
Flintoff - Irresponsibility and pedalos aside, there are two things that cannot be disputed about Fred a) he has a heart the size of a mountain and b) he is one hell of a bowler. His efforts in the futile and frankly embarrassing defence of an inadequate score against South Africa were the best example of a player that should now be regarded as one of the world's premier fast bowlers, opening in both forms of the game. As an all-rounder he has now proved himself to be more of a Shaun Pollock than a Botham or Imran, but a place at 7 in a side whose top 6 shows some idea of having a clue would give him the sort of freedom to play his natural game that Gilchrist has benefitted so well from. Will never be given the chance to captain again and for all his admirable qualities that is undoubtedly A GOOD THING.
Nixon - Oh Grandad we love you! But like all old people, he won't be with us for much longer. Justified his selection with plucky batting, confident keeping and by generally annoying the hell out of his opponents, his success showed that the WK place is there for whoever wants it, be they Davies or Foster or whoever.
Plunkett - How much did being caught out on the razz while already being on a DD charge affect him being dropped after a couple of games and never seen again? It was a stupid decision, he is a far more capable bowler than some (more of that later) and should be encouraged to improve on his already sometimes lethal bowling and his promise with the bat.
Mahmoud - Quite simply no. He really is a player who has taken the phrase "putting the ball in the right areas" too literally. OK so he roughed up the Bangladeshis, but in general an absolute liability. An option in Test cricket, but should never hold a white ball for England again!
Anderson - Not the worst bowler in world cricket, but nowhere near being the best. Has become almost the Matthew Hoggard of England's ODI team, fairly steady and the man to open the bowling come what may. That may end up being his role in all forms of the game once our favourite farmer calls it a day, but he still has a long way to go before he reaches the standards set by the Hogg.
Panesar - Bowled well in patches, overall our second best bowler after Fred, but needs to bowl more like he does in Tests and less like Fletcher wants him to (like Ashley Giles basically). No longer an embarrassment in the field despite throwing like a girl (sorry ladies) but one has to hope he will keep his natural enthusiasm despite being part of this collective shower.
Dalrymple - What's the point in persevering with someone for ages, going on about what they have to give and then after a couple of matches just dropping them like a stone? Bowled and batted with utter ineptitude, but perhaps deserved better than being cast out completely after two matches after showing so much fight in the 12 months preceeding. On reflection not good enough overall.
Lewis - Contributed nothing, other than going out on a bender, being photographed with some lovely ladies and then playing the attentive father-to-be by flying back to make up for it.
Broad - Didn't get a chance. One for the future though.
Fletcher - A great servant, but his time has come. Time to go.
Next England Coach - Tom Moody, or if we can't get him, Peter Moores (very much a second choice)
Next England Test Team
Strauss
Cook
Vaughan (c)
Pieterson
Collingwood
Bell
Flintoff
Foster
Hoggard
Harmison
Panesar
Next England ODI Team
Benning
Bell
Strauss (c)
Pieterson
Collingwood
Bopara
Flintoff
Foster
Broad
Anderson
Panesar
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Complain about this postWell said Aggers... at least no-one can now hide behind a brave but gallant failure!!!
Complain about this postEngland's total inability to change things that weren't working has proved their downfall in this tournament. Replacing Dalrymple with Bopara and then Joyce with Strauss was only re-arranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic - the basic plans were completely inadequate for the conditions and the opposition.
That must be down to the coach & captain - Fletcher's position is now surely untenable: a sad end to 8 years of genuine improvement under his tutelage.
Vaughan cannot stay in the one-day side, I agree... but where are the players to replace some of the other under-achievers. Surely no-one can point to players who were crying out to be selected but were overlooked.
In the final analysis, no-one can be surprised that England failed to make the last four - I don't think many of us expected it. It is the manner of the elimination that has left me wondering whether the 2005 Ashes win will prove to be another false dawn for English cricket
Lets be honest...englands one-day performance in australia was a one-off too as another article on this site says. We won the correct tosses when it mattered and had the right conditions for our bowlers who are predominantly swing bowlers. But the team at the moment has not got the confidence nor ability in my view. The younger players are there with the talent, and this will come through in later years, but the team at the moment is mediocre and was successful in Ashes 2005 as it was high on confidence, fortunate with Aussie injuries and lack of form, conditions, and flintoff in his pomp, of which we will never see again
Complain about this postPEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME!!!
Complain about this postPoster 2 : thats a very good point.
When was the last time England won a one-day series and put together a string of good results?
Answer - The CB Series when KP was injured for the majority of it.
------------------
On the game today, what a shambolic performance. Vaughan has repeatedly stated that everything would be alright on the night and England would stand up and be counted.
Just like the football team, they are found wanting when it really matters. The correlation between the football, rugby and cricket teams is not coincidental and there is definetly a mentality problem there embedded within our sporting society.
Rather than playing to win, these English teams are more afraid of failure due to the ravenous nature of our gossip-hungry media.
I beleive it's time for Vaughan to stand down as England captain and for England to lose some of the dead wood. A fit-again trscothick will add some much needed impetus and attacking-intent to the batting up top. Get rid of Nixon and get a young wicket-keeper in and generally experiment by blooding some exciting new attacking youngsters that might actually take this form of the game by the scruff of the neck.
Flectcher should be allowed to see out the remainder of his contract in the summer, which should give the selectors plenty of time to appoint a new coach, and give Shane Warne the coaching role for as much money as he wants.
It has been said numerous times, but the English don't seem to be taking it in. They were seeded 7th for this tournament, and according to their ranking reached the super eights, which is what they should have done. They were outclassed by better sides who are higher than them in the rankings for a reason.
Back to the drawing board, bring in some talented youngersters and improve that ranking in time for the next biggie.
Complain about this postto the team ...
I've really enjoyed this World Cup and I'm looking forward to the remainder. If you'll forgive me for seeming to gloss over the sad death of Bob Woolmer, it's been a fantastic event to watch from home (crowd numbers hasn't been an issue from the telly!) and I've enjoyed England being a part of it.
You, selected for the England team, should remain proud of what you achieve - even if it doesn't seem much in other's eyes. Gone are the days when we could hope to dominate consistently, but I think that expectation is still there. We know, although we find it hard to admit, that the level playing field gets wider. Same in rugby, football, athletics etc. - but remember that these things go in phases. You'll continue to do your best and we'll enjoy it.
I know that you're way, way more disappointed in your own performances than we couch-potatoes, or commentators, jounrnalists and pundits could be, but, please, remain proud of being part of such an exciting competition and continue to be magnamimous in defeat by what, at the moment (!) are better teams.
Whatever angry comments or knee-jerk reactions there are, or changes forced on the set-up, don't be downhearted. You still have my, and thousands of others', utmost admiration. Thanks for doing what you do. I love the game and I love having England involved.
(and I really mean that - I'm not being sarcastic)
Commiserations, have one for me, better luck next time and I'm looking forward to seeing you at Old Trafford.
Ged.
Complain about this postUntil the ECB realise that the number of overseas players in the game is killing the development of English players we don't have a chance of establishing England as a world force. How many English players play in Australian state cricket? None! How many English players play in the equivalent competions in South Africa, India, Pakistan etc. Probably none. Time for a rethink!
Complain about this postGoing into detail player-by-player to see where it went wrong:
Vaughan - has almost destroyed the fine reputation he established as a player, as a captain and as a spokesperson for the team. Something happened between Australia and the Caribbean where he went from being the only one prepared to admit things had gone horribly wrong in Oz (Flintoff still the worst captain to ever attend an England press conference) to the man who forever felt England were "one good performance away". It never came and surely he must announce his retirement from ODIs now. Concentrate on the Test stuff he must do, but most importantly he needs runs. And soon.
Strauss - The man to miss out due to lack of form, since coming back has looked to be playing himself back into form. No real long term concerns, should be made captain of England's ODI side following Vaughan's expected retirement.
Bell - So much promise, yet so eternally disappointing. May have a real challenge on his hands in keeping his place in both forms of the game, but probably just about safe after consideration. Needs to get a ODI ton, as well as a hundred against a top Test side.
Joyce - Clearly not ready for this stage yet and in terms of his game may end up enjoying more success in the Test format. Still unlucky to be dropped, mainly due to the fact that it was either him or the captain for the chop. Would Loye have been a better bet?
Pieterson - Quite simply, so far the best England player it is actually quite frightening. All the silly grumbles (selfish, conceited, not a team player) still don't hide the fact that he is one of the best players in the game right now and that England should be proud to have him, even if he does at times come across as a bit of a prat. One day a side is going to be on the end of a very big score, a big double or even triple hundred. And they won't necessarily be a minnow...
Collingwood - Thoroughly admirable bloke, will stay as a key player in both formats, make him vice captain in ODIs. May be required to do a bit more bowling in Tests as well.
Bopara - Something of a find, like the cut of his gib. Useful bowler (ask Mike Hussey), gutsy middle order batsman, may be challenging for a Test place come the summer.
Flintoff - Irresponsibility and pedalos aside, there are two things that cannot be disputed about Fred a) he has a heart the size of a mountain and b) he is one hell of a bowler. His efforts in the futile and frankly embarrassing defence of an inadequate score against South Africa were the best example of a player that should now be regarded as one of the world's premier fast bowlers, opening in both forms of the game. As an all-rounder he has now proved himself to be more of a Shaun Pollock than a Botham or Imran, but a place at 7 in a side whose top 6 shows some idea of having a clue would give him the sort of freedom to play his natural game that Gilchrist has benefitted so well from. Will never be given the chance to captain again and for all his admirable qualities that is undoubtedly A GOOD THING.
Nixon - Oh Grandad we love you! But like all old people, he won't be with us for much longer. Justified his selection with plucky batting, confident keeping and by generally annoying the hell out of his opponents, his success showed that the WK place is there for whoever wants it, be they Davies or Foster or whoever.
Plunkett - How much did being caught out on the razz while already being on a DD charge affect him being dropped after a couple of games and never seen again? It was a stupid decision, he is a far more capable bowler than some (more of that later) and should be encouraged to improve on his already sometimes lethal bowling and his promise with the bat.
Mahmoud - Quite simply no. He really is a player who has taken the phrase "putting the ball in the right areas" too literally. OK so he roughed up the Bangladeshis, but in general an absolute liability. An option in Test cricket, but should never hold a white ball for England again!
Anderson - Not the worst bowler in world cricket, but nowhere near being the best. Has become almost the Matthew Hoggard of England's ODI team, fairly steady and the man to open the bowling come what may. That may end up being his role in all forms of the game once our favourite farmer calls it a day, but he still has a long way to go before he reaches the standards set by the Hogg.
Panesar - Bowled well in patches, overall our second best bowler after Fred, but needs to bowl more like he does in Tests and less like Fletcher wants him to (like Ashley Giles basically). No longer an embarrassment in the field despite throwing like a girl (sorry ladies) but one has to hope he will keep his natural enthusiasm despite being part of this collective shower.
Dalrymple - What's the point in persevering with someone for ages, going on about what they have to give and then after a couple of matches just dropping them like a stone? Bowled and batted with utter ineptitude, but perhaps deserved better than being cast out completely after two matches after showing so much fight in the 12 months preceeding. On reflection not good enough overall.
Lewis - Contributed nothing, other than going out on a bender, being photographed with some lovely ladies and then playing the attentive father-to-be by flying back to make up for it.
Broad - Didn't get a chance. One for the future though.
Fletcher - A great servant, but his time has come. Time to go.
Next England Coach - Tom Moody, or if we can't get him, Peter Moores (very much a second choice)
Next England Test Team
Strauss
Cook
Vaughan (c)
Pieterson
Collingwood
Bell
Flintoff
Foster
Hoggard
Harmison
Panesar
Next England ODI Team
Benning
Bell
Strauss (c)
Pieterson
Collingwood
Bopara
Flintoff
Foster
Broad
Anderson
Panesar
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Complain about this postIt may seem a like a kneejerk reaction to suggest that Fletcher should go, but let's not forget that the core of this side has just been wupped 5-0 in an Ashes series. In the 90's / early 00s we had a couple of fairly serious kickings from the Aussies but this winter's exploits are exceptional. I think most supporters would agree that it's the denial that irritates most - it's a bit insulting. We can see that we're not playing well and haven't shown anything to suggest we can.
However, I strongly support the idea that Duncan Fletcher should be retained as a selector - he's got a really strong eye for top batting talent (Tres, Strauss, Cook). He's a bit blind when it comes to 'keepers and spinners but he's given us more than many recent coaches. Not sure we can tempt him to forsake Cape Town for a summer traipsing round watching county cricket though ....
Complain about this postjust a thought about the debacle today....
how come everyone has been talking about our batting order being wrong, but our bloody minded team and coaching staff have steadfastly refused to change course midway through???
I think the captain of the Titanic had the same phobia about changing course midway through a hourney and look where it got him!!!
I still think leaving Mal Loye behind has proved to be the biggest mistake....maybe we should have left Ed with the Irish....erm hang on, they may have beaten is if he had :o/
Complain about this postGoing into detail player-by-player to see where it went wrong:
Vaughan - has almost destroyed the fine reputation he established as a player, as a captain and as a spokesperson for the team. Something happened between Australia and the Caribbean where he went from being the only one prepared to admit things had gone horribly wrong in Oz (Flintoff still the worst captain to ever attend an England press conference) to the man who forever felt England were "one good performance away". It never came and surely he must announce his retirement from ODIs now. Concentrate on the Test stuff he must do, but most importantly he needs runs. And soon.
Strauss - The man to miss out due to lack of form, since coming back has looked to be playing himself back into form. No real long term concerns, should be made captain of England's ODI side following Vaughan's expected retirement.
Bell - So much promise, yet so eternally disappointing. May have a real challenge on his hands in keeping his place in both forms of the game, but probably just about safe after consideration. Needs to get a ODI ton, as well as a hundred against a top Test side.
Joyce - Clearly not ready for this stage yet and in terms of his game may end up enjoying more success in the Test format. Still unlucky to be dropped, mainly due to the fact that it was either him or the captain for the chop. Would Loye have been a better bet?
Pieterson - Quite simply, so far the best England player it is actually quite frightening. All the silly grumbles (selfish, conceited, not a team player) still don't hide the fact that he is one of the best players in the game right now and that England should be proud to have him, even if he does at times come across as a bit of a prat. One day a side is going to be on the end of a very big score, a big double or even triple hundred. And they won't necessarily be a minnow...
Collingwood - Thoroughly admirable bloke, will stay as a key player in both formats, make him vice captain in ODIs. May be required to do a bit more bowling in Tests as well.
Bopara - Something of a find, like the cut of his gib. Useful bowler (ask Mike Hussey), gutsy middle order batsman, may be challenging for a Test place come the summer.
Flintoff - Irresponsibility and pedalos aside, there are two things that cannot be disputed about Fred a) he has a heart the size of a mountain and b) he is one hell of a bowler. His efforts in the futile and frankly embarrassing defence of an inadequate score against South Africa were the best example of a player that should now be regarded as one of the world's premier fast bowlers, opening in both forms of the game. As an all-rounder he has now proved himself to be more of a Shaun Pollock than a Botham or Imran, but a place at 7 in a side whose top 6 shows some idea of having a clue would give him the sort of freedom to play his natural game that Gilchrist has benefitted so well from. Will never be given the chance to captain again and for all his admirable qualities that is undoubtedly A GOOD THING.
Nixon - Oh Grandad we love you! But like all old people, he won't be with us for much longer. Justified his selection with plucky batting, confident keeping and by generally annoying the hell out of his opponents, his success showed that the WK place is there for whoever wants it, be they Davies or Foster or whoever.
Plunkett - How much did being caught out on the razz while already being on a DD charge affect him being dropped after a couple of games and never seen again? It was a stupid decision, he is a far more capable bowler than some (more of that later) and should be encouraged to improve on his already sometimes lethal bowling and his promise with the bat.
Mahmoud - Quite simply no. He really is a player who has taken the phrase "putting the ball in the right areas" too literally. OK so he roughed up the Bangladeshis, but in general an absolute liability. An option in Test cricket, but should never hold a white ball for England again!
Anderson - Not the worst bowler in world cricket, but nowhere near being the best. Has become almost the Matthew Hoggard of England's ODI team, fairly steady and the man to open the bowling come what may. That may end up being his role in all forms of the game once our favourite farmer calls it a day, but he still has a long way to go before he reaches the standards set by the Hogg.
Panesar - Bowled well in patches, overall our second best bowler after Fred, but needs to bowl more like he does in Tests and less like Fletcher wants him to (like Ashley Giles basically). No longer an embarrassment in the field despite throwing like a girl (sorry ladies) but one has to hope he will keep his natural enthusiasm despite being part of this collective shower.
Dalrymple - What's the point in persevering with someone for ages, going on about what they have to give and then after a couple of matches just dropping them like a stone? Bowled and batted with utter ineptitude, but perhaps deserved better than being cast out completely after two matches after showing so much fight in the 12 months preceeding. On reflection not good enough overall.
Lewis - Contributed nothing, other than going out on a bender, being photographed with some lovely ladies and then playing the attentive father-to-be by flying back to make up for it.
Broad - Didn't get a chance. One for the future though.
Fletcher - A great servant, but his time has come. Time to go.
Next England Coach - Tom Moody, or if we can't get him, Peter Moores (very much a second choice)
Next England Test Team
Strauss
Cook
Vaughan (c)
Pieterson
Collingwood
Bell
Flintoff
Foster
Hoggard
Harmison
Panesar
Next England ODI Team
Benning
Bell
Strauss (c)
Pieterson
Collingwood
Bopara
Flintoff
Foster
Broad
Anderson
Panesar
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Complain about this postToday's result against South Africa put us out of our long misery. It was for the best
Complain about this postEmbarrassing! After each shameful, inept performance we get the same old story from the team. "We feel worse about it than you do" but how can they if they never dig in, and put in the effort next time out! Form may be temporary but hard work and basic common sense shouldn't be but all we hear is "we can take the positives from this". Far too many so called professionals spending their lives with rose tinted glasses, being whisked from event to event, form luxury hotel to luxury hotel and what is the result of this? "Well getting bored" We give the shirt to someone who cares about what it means and recognises it as the honour it should be. Perhaps its also time for our fans to forget their instinctive dislike of football chants 1,2,3, "Your not fit to wear the shirt!" Listening once again to England being cheered from the stands for lucky edges that just make it through the slips instead of booed off the park shows we are far too accepting of failure in cricket!
Complain about this postTime and time again this page as been used to routinely critise the England team.I for one are totally fed up with Jonathan Agnew and the TMS team for their comments.The England team are NOT A JOKE maybe they could at times have played better but if they are a joke then where does that leave India and Pakistan who never got to the super eight stage.Michael Vaughan made a comment about what has been said about the England team yeaterday during his press conference and I for one am not suprised because basically TMS as done nothing but snipe and be nasty about the England team for sometime.They never talk England up or say anything possitive.They always talk the opposition up well if they didn`t know the BBC is the British Broadcasting Corporation and it is about time they supported England.Some of the comments especially about Monty are just plan spiteful and they are certainly not funny.
Complain about this postMaybe it is about time the BBC Cricket Correspondant was replaced with someone who was pro England.Also remember when talking about Muralitharan the rules where changed so he could carry on James Kirtley had to go away and remodal his action.Most people I know think Muralitharan and Malinga should have been band from ever playing cricket and I for one are hoping that Sri Lanka don`t make the final.At the beginning of this report Jonathan Agnew made a remark that England didn`t deserve a place in the semi finals the truth is if it had been up to the TMS team et al then the super 8 would have been Pakistan,India,Australia,Sri Lanka,South Africa and New Zealand with the suprise team being Kenya.
England's negative approach reflects thier whole physche. Against weak opposition it may be fine to ensure you get a good base, but to win the world cup and defeat the best ranked team going into these championships positive thoughts were a necessity. What resulted was a decision to bat and then defend against losing wickets, against top class bowling attacks the risks are obvious and today this happened where we had a base to launch a last 10 over assault but were unable to do so.
When Australia embarked on a positive approach to test cricket, scoring over 3.5 runs per over, critics thought them arrogant, no all accept the need to play at this level. All can see from Australia's record that this approach caused them some embarrising test defeats but in the main they won most matches, they did not allow some bad defeats to sway them from their objectives.
As with one day internationals a new approach is needed by England and the desire to stick to those objectives whether or not they fail from time to time.
I am sure that if England had played positively throughout the tournament and got bowled out today for 160 playing positively the reaction would have been more symphathetic than the drab and negative approach adopted.
Change is a must, a new coach and a new one day captain is a good start.
Complain about this postWhat do the good teams have that England don't? - Batsmen at the top of the order who are positive and England must realise thet have to play like that after this debacle.
Complain about this postAwful, that was so sad. I'm afraid it's systamatic of all our life styles now that we're far to pampered that real graft is now history and it shows in our sports'men. So much news is about things that are so trivial really.
On the cricket I suppose to make the best use of what we've got. I'd go with Tom Moody as coach, Fletch's times up. In one day cricket I'd go for,
Loye
Prior
Flintoff
Pieterson
Collingwood
Blackwell
Shah
Bopara
Broad
Panesar
Anderson
We need to get a team to dominate. Loye in to stop gap for Trescothick. Batting a long way down and strong bowling up front. At least we can only go up from here?!
Complain about this postIt is unwise to respond to failure by instant sackings when on reflection the problems may stem from deep roots in the organisation of English cricket.
Record books tell us that until about 25 years ago our top cricketers played vastly more cricket, with six days a week of first class cricket and bowlers routinely taking over 100 wickets a season, and sometimes 200. Practice makes perfect, weeds out the injury prone, and provides the vital platform of confidence.
A system which elevates a select few to central contracts and then denies them match practice in an emaciated county championship simply guarantees that our top players will lose form, lose confidence, be criticised be Aggers, and be replaced by another promising group of players who will suffer exactly the same fate.
We should note that the Indian cricket authorities have already reached the same conclusion, and will in future require their stars to play much more in their domestic game in order to maintain their form instead of living off past reputations.
Furthermore, overseas players and cricket migrants like Pieterson provide short term advantages which are far outweighed by the long term consequences. Naturally counties hire star
players. These occupy key roles in teams, are employed to hog the batting and bowling, and inevitably reduce the opportunities for the development of English players to a far greater extent than their small numbers imply.
A final point: to some extent England are always likely to be at a disadvantage in one day cricket. Agressive batting is a supreme advantage in the one day game, and that style of batting is a natural development on fast hard true wickets, which are rare in England. Traditionally English wickets are far more varied and tricky, and demand more cautious batting.
Complain about this postOne positive - Paul Collingwood. The only one who applied himself out in the middle. KP? I am still not sure he has the right attitude. The only reason he plays is to prove a point to the South Africans and with a mouth like his, I understand why they never picked him.
Noone should be allowed to become a super star on the back of one Ashes series win. I am afraid the word "great player" is often misused these days and the media should shoulder the blame for misleading fans into believing that a bunch of novices could actually win the coveted cup.
Vaughan's return to the team, master tactiian or not was a mistake.Not taking advantage of a hard ball and the fielding restrictions does not look like a good ploy to me whether it was made by Vaughan or Fletcher. Fletcher should go now as he has acquired British citizenship and he does not have anything else to play for.
And I won't even discuss Freddy.
Complain about this postWhy cant England pick a English coach?
Complain about this postEven worse how the hell cant you pick 12 half decent players out of a country the has a population of 60million?
Unfortunately this team hives the country fouls hope & people will not follow cricket in this country...........You think times are tuff for English cricket now, It's going to get worse before it gets better.
Well said, it is time for change, but I fear we will get more of the same in coaching terms.
My vote is for Tom Moody as coach, and David Graveney needs to be replaced too.
Would love to see Beefy involved in some way with the England team.
Complain about this postThis victory for South Africa was the sweetest i have ever witnessed. Not because i deslike England but jut one player in particular. Kevin Peitersen. Here is a guy who grew up under apartheid, benefited from the way sport was run back then and i have no doubt he probably would have played for the segregated South Africa had they been allowed to play as a whites only team. so what the new governing body introduced a quota system (which i dont agree with) that dont give him the right to constantly belittle our country at every opportunity he gets. If he had stayed with south Africa he would have been playing for the proteas anyway. And had the apartheid system remained, we would never heard of the likes of Herschell Gibbs, Makhaya Ntini, Ashwell Prince and Hashem Amla. The system is not perfect but it is a whole lot better than the one that natured Kevin Peitersen
Complain about this postI think Aggers has it partly right. England have been awful in the one-day game for years and it's time to overhaul things. I believe a new captain, coach and setup completely seperate from the test team needs to be looked at. We should look at one-day innovators such as Dermot Reeve for inspiration.
The test setup can wait. Give Duncan another 12 months to prove the ashes was a "blip" and that things are improving once all his troops are fit and healthy again.
I don't see one affecting the other - they can be treated as completely seperate teams.
Complain about this postDo we really need to wait a whole domestic season before getting rid of Fletcher? The whole incestuous, entitlement culture that bedevils English cricket revolves around him.
Complain about this postThis World Cup like the pasty two has been laughable, the fact we only managed to beat 1 other test playing nation (Bangladesh - which we tried our hardest to lose) is an absolute JOKE! Vaughan needs to go, with Collingwood as repacement skipper as he is worthy of a place in the side as a player on his own.
I would look to players like Broad, Plunkett, Steven Davies (great prospect), Adil Rashid, Benning, Bopara to take us to the next World Cup alongside Pietersen, Anderson, Simon Jones, Tres (if stable) there is the makings of a good one day side. However, the ECB must make bug changes now or else suffer another humiliating and embarassing 4 years until the next World Cup.
On another point, it is time for Fletcher to go also, his stubborness and lack of flexibility in the one day arena has restricted England greatly. By this I mean picking players like Bell, Strauss, Mahmood, Vaughan, Dalrymple, Geraint Jones and Tim Bresnan to name but a few who aren't good enough one day players to perform on the international stage.
Oh and Flintoff looks a beaten man whom I belive will never reach his former best due to his lack of maturity, responsibility and mental strength and capability. He has done nothing in the past two years to suggest otherwise! Perhaps he needs a few games in county cricket as a kick up the backside!
Complain about this postWell the real SA turned up tonight and against a consistently bad England team, it was no contest.
We persist with an opening pair that have not scored a ton between them. Do you think this would have been tolerated by an Oz or SAF team? Quite simply, they are not modern ODI class. The whole squad, barr Pieterson is ensconced in mediocrity! And to suggest that Bopara, Shah and the like are the future. Give me a break. The only thing they will achieve is to continue long succession of pretenders.
Now that we know Nixon cant play, who do we go back to?? Read??? Even better, our saviour Geraint...
I just cant see where the improvement comes from. England have been soooo bad for sooo long.
And as for Graveney and Fletcher and the endless defense of their crap players. Take a risk, chuck Flintoff in the opening slot and let him dash. What have you got to lose if he gets out? 5 runs in the 40th over?? Better than the usual bog start we've seen for the 10th consecutive time...
There has to be some serious flicking done post WC, both on the squad and the brains trust..
Complain about this postIts all doom and gloom!!
Finally after a 5-0 drubbing and the world cup embarrasment has JA come to his senses and agreed that fletcher needs to go. His conservative attitude to the game and failure to adapt both in the test and the one day game has cost us dearly. For example Flintoff at number 6 today with 20-odd to go? Surely Bopara would have been more stabilising?
The first 7 overs were the worst I have ever seen, except our dismal capitulation in the 2nd ashes test. But on the plus side we were never going to win it anyway, and thanks to India and pakistan not getting through we have avoided another couple of spankings.
For months I have been trying to air my frustration at the cronyismcally (is this a word?) orientated reporting of JA's view but finally he has grown some hairs on his chest. So thank you dunc for all you have done and we've had some good times.....but its time for you to take up gardening full-time but perhaps via a quick cameo on celebrity fat camp first.
Complain about this postAnother poor display, when will england learn and follow the example set by the other semi final nations. All have good power hitters at the top of the order. England are blinded by this English arrogance of the need to have stroke and text book players. Vaughan has a strike rate of next to none. Ian Bell still believes he is playing Test cricket. The top order rarely perfom and when they do, they take so long to build a platform that the pressure just builds up for the remaining order. The menatlity needs to change almost to a 20: 20 style for the top order!
Complain about this postWell, at last, it's over. England's best chance was when they has their two South Africans at the crease. Vaughan has been a 1-day passenger for too long and his captaincy doesn't merit the slot. But it's the batting of the top order which sums up England: conservative, deferential and fearful. I assume they will be selling their stories to the Sun etc when they get home.
Complain about this postIs there any wonder that England lost when some of them were night clubbing in Barbados straight after the Bangladesh match? I was there and had Paul Collingwood refuse to sign an autograph because he was "having a beer". What sort of preparation was that for a place in the semi-finals, it's a joke that they think they can make excuses!
Complain about this postWe are massively in need of a "Trescothick" at the top of the order - hopefully the great man can overcome his problems, I would have chosen Mal Loye in Trescothicks absence.
I would also like to see players getting more cricket for their counties, too many of the young players have limited experience in the county game.
Monty is massively hyped up and far from the finished article, Flintoff shouuld not be batting at 5 on current form, either try him at opener or drop him below Bopara - who looked promising.
Vaughan and Fletcher have to leave, its the only way to move forward.
Complain about this postI am constantly amazed to read how many keep mentioning Monty. A great team man, good potential in tests, but 1 day player? Give me a break. He took how many wickets in the WC - 2??? Nor was he hard to score off of. His batting.....
But then again we have no batsmen other that KP, who is too much like Lara... no team man; God help us if he was captain.
Bopara had a decent series but is too slow; against SA he was amazing slow and kept taking singles off tyhe 1st ball. Well why not? Monty, England's LARA would surely smash SA's bowlers.
Vaughn - Say no more, except please let him show he still can bat for his county before asking him back to the test arena; Can you imagine an Aussie batting like that and still being picked?
I just wish the ICC could get the team to refung me and the other loyal England supporters with our entrance fees for watching what they had to offer...
Complain about this postI completely agree. I was angry and disappointed by England's performance today and feel they let all of their fans down. That spell late in the innings when 5 wickets went for 10 runs in 4 overs was simply typical of an England one-day innings. They're like a bunch of dominos - knock one over and chances are you'll knock a few of them over soon after.
I think that James Anderson and Saj Mahmood have a lot to learn about international cricket, but still believe they should be around the set-up as I think they're good enough. Granted today they didn't do well, but being asked to take wickets and defend 155 is a bit of a tall ask for them given that they can spray it a bit when under pressure. England's miserly performance came from the awful way they went about batting.
Bell - a possible great of the future, but shouldn't be opening the batting.
Vaughan - a terrific Captain but wouldn't be in the one-day side if he wasn't. However, I didn't even think he brought that much extra to England when they were in the field during the WC.
Pietersen - a fantastic player, but I reckon he was a little caught up in the whole Pietersen & South Africa saga today.
Flintoff - out of form with the bat and unspectacular with the ball, but he is a great all-rounder and will come good again soon.
The tail - why, oh why does everybody have some bowlers who can bat a bit, but ours seem as though they'd struggle in a junior league?! Mahmood, Panesar and Anderson really really need to improve their batting.....especially Anderson!
Joyce - a decent player, but too similar in style to Bell, Collingwood, Vaughan and not as good (with the exception perhaps of Vaughan)
I thought Bopara, Collingwood and Strauss had a decent game today, but it is easy to shine when the rest around you perform so poorly....
I unfortunately don't know enough about County Cricket to suggest possible replacements for some of the people I think shouldn't be playing, but one thing is clear - England desperately need Marcus Trescothick back at the top of the order......and soon.
Complain about this posta comment from an ex-pat (yorkshireman, too!) living in germany:
it really is time we introduced a world championship in the rhetorical building up of expectations that are inevitably shattered by english teams as soon as they come up against foreign opposition. i'm sure that england would win every time!!! then again, as soon as something becomes competitive, we invariably find out to our amazement that the "foreigners" are better than we are.
i experienced the last football world cup here in germany and honestly believed, after reading the press comments on the internet, that england had a chance of achieving something substantial in that competition. just imagine the volume of scorn i had to put up with from my german friends when england's performance failed in every aspect to fulfill the expectations. the absolute low were the hoots of derision when beckham threw up in the middle of a match.
likewise in the test series against australia. i stayed up especially to listen to the start of the first test in brisbane - something that cost me dearly in terms of sleep since we are an hour ahead of england - and as soon as harmison bowled the very first ball more or less straight into the hands of second slip (so they say, fortunately i've never seen it myself on the screen) i knew what was going to happen.
now this debacle in the caribbean! anyone who has the time on his hands can loook back at the quotes leading up to the cricket world cup and see that there were "genuine" hopes that england could actually win the competition. what a ludicrous suggestion, and yet how many gullibles out there in the land of virtual information found themselves once again thinking that they might pull it off!
and one more thing concerning the rhetoric employed by our sporting representatives: the next time i hear michael vaughan or "freddie" flintoff talk about "putting the opposition under pressure" or "taking the positives", i swear i'll throw my hand-sewn english shoes at the monitor!
freddie, the real freddie, f.s.trueman, god bless his heart, the man who fired my schoolboy imagination as a cricketer, must be turning in his grave at the performances of the english team over the last twelve months. and geoff boycs, the poor man who has actually had to witness all this overblown ineptness live, well, i just feel sorry for him. having given his gong for services to cricket to his cat, maybe he could send said animal out to represent england the next time they play against real opposition.
Complain about this postwe are, quite simply, the best losers in the world. and that is a title nobody wants to take from us
They talked the talk but couldn't walk the walk. Time to face up to reality they're living on the single Ashes series victory they got and have gone downhill ever since. Bye Fletcher, Bye Vaughn, even Bye Freddie if he continues to fail with the bat and ball.
Complain about this posti'm afraid michael vaughan's odi record has made him become the biggest joke in cricket. his innings was typical u could say. 20 balls on 0, a good shot here & there, & then before u know it he was out. even his dismissal today had an element of comedy about it.
btw if gibbs had hit the stumps with his run out attempt, would steve bucknor still have raised his finger?
south africa were awesome today. their all round display showed just why they & england are so far apart on the icc rankings.
Complain about this postDepressing stuff.
I agree a complete re-think is needed, but please, please let's have an experienced captain - at least one who has done it before and successfully. No "on the job" training schemes!
Complain about this postAn example - in choosing to bat first MV made a similar decision in similar circumstances to that made by Trent Johnston for Ireland against Bangladesh, theoretically the stronger side. Whereas Johnston was proved right MV got it wrong. I don't know how important it was in England's case, but I do think it was a significant advantage when Johnston did it.
In the current environment the captain has to be inspirational and lead by example. England need to find this perfect being - is there one?
England's problem starts with each individual player not having the bottle to go out and attack with the bat. As we saw from the SA performance today was how quick they were prepared to attack our bowling and how slow we were getting out of the blocks.
Complain about this postQuite frankly it was an embarrassment to english cricket and to the english people in general. To have a run every 10 balls (slight exaggerration) is not going to win us anything, and will lose us a lot of respect (of what we have left!)
Let's see the team reshuffled and filled with players who want to wear the infamous three lions on thier shirt and do everything in their power to get as many runs as possible and play exciting cricket.
As we saw from the ashes win a few years ago, how much support the team got and that was because the team played exciting cricket.
That's where we need to start, hopefully this world cup will make the players realise that a lot more effort is needed
During his after match interview Vaughan said, quote "they would need to go back to the drawing board" and a commentator quite rightly said "they need to replace the draughtmen!"
England showed no spirit or courage in their efforts, where is their pride, for goodness sake? What a tonic Ireland gave us.
Perhaps England ought to had gone out on the town as SA did, it might had made a better match what ever the result!
Regards
Harry Stone
Complain about this postDuncan fletcher to go, tom moody please help us!
Complain about this postOnce the dust settles on this debacle, the ECB have to change a number of things if England are no longer to be regarded as a laughing stock of one day cricket:
- All Domestic one day cricket should be 50 overs per side played under international rules to get players used to this number of overs.
- Vaughan must step down as Captain as he would not be good enough for any other top international side as passengers cannot be carried.
- Fletcher must retire now so that a fresh face can make his mark and mould the Team in his way.
- Only players that will still be playing at the top level in 2011 when the next World Cup takes place should be considered. If this means that England lose games in the short term whilst rebuilding then so be it.
- The new Management must adopt a positive strategy to reflect the fact that Powerplays are here to stay, and we must be able to take advantage in the same way that the semi-finalists have!
Short term pain will lead to long term gain and hopefully a better England in World Cup 2011.
Complain about this postPeeps, get a grip. We need to sort out the overall structure of cricket in the UK. So even debating who should captain etc etc is missing the point.
Sadly there is no sight of this happening.
An example.
Stuart Law, damn fine cricketer, doesn't quite make the test match grade long term. Aussie system spits him out, we "catch" him in our league, albeit a very fine player.
Someone like Kim Barnett, tried at test match level, never going to make it........still playing county cricket at 41 when he retired (as did Gooch).
Come on, ask yourself a question. Who has the best system? There are numerous examples of players who have toyed with International cricket and then gone back to long term "careers" in county cricket.
Aussies - not good enough for Inetrnationals, out you go. UK - not good enough, carry on playing at county level.
System is rubbish.
Complain about this posti love teams that play with passion but with england theres no passion, justlike the football team. they need to sort that out before they make any drastic changes.
Complain about this postMJ (2) might just conceivably concentrate on KP's actual performance rather than send him hate mail via this site. It's pathetic to see someone so abysmally prejudiced that he cannot distinguish reality from his irrational dislike of a batsman who would be an automatic choice for any of the 4 semi-finalists.
Complain about this postA bunch of indisciplined, arrogant oafs got what they deserved. Why are you all so shocked?
Complain about this postWhile Australia and New Zealand were preparing for the world cup, England were concentrating all their energies on winning an irrelevant little tournament called the CB series.
What was going on? Did they forget there was a world cup to prepare for?
How can top professionals, en masse, be so insipid and uninspired for the world cup? Every other side looks up for it.
It's scarcely believable that all the promise of the Fletcher years can end like this. So like Eriksson's boys - all style and no substance. A team amounting to depressingly less than the sum of it's parts.
The way Flintoff has been treated is a shambles.
Everything is a shambles in fact.
But what will be done about it? Nothing, I expect: that's the English way.
Complain about this postTook a sickie to watch the game now I need another to recover. Think of all the poor punters who flew over to the WI!
Complain about this postOne thing is all the chat about the players....the buck stops at the selectors.....get rid of them first.
Graveney and the pompous windbags that still have too much say in English cricket must go if there is ever to be a real change in the mentality of the England cricket team.
Botham should be brought in - if only because he would then be forced to lose the beer gut he has been working on of late.
If that fails then I think the TMS team should be changed, as they are quite clearly not achieving the results they should be for the England team. Perhaps the team from Sky or Australia's Channel 9 could be brought in for a small transfer fee.
Complain about this postwhy all the surprise?
Who have England got below them in the World ODI ranking.
Was anybody seriously expecting anything else?
Complain about this postI disagree about Vaughan as a Test batsman. He used to be one of the best but there is no sign that he has any sort of form after such a long layoff. From being a great fielder, he is also now an embarassment in the field. In short, Vaughan at the moment is not fit to be in an international squad. Fletcher has to go. His handling of Flintoff was hamfisted and stupid, destroying his confidence just when he was needed most. Fletcher is over-rated as a coach, he won the Ashes at home against a weakened Australia with a squad that would have beaten anybody - now sadly fallen apart through injury. For once, I don't blame the players. They were badly led on and off the field, and it showed in their play.
Complain about this postAgree with you Aggers but I would also go further and remove David Graveney and replace him with your "good friend" Sir Geoffrey Boycott or someone as blunt who will take no prisoners when sorting the debacle that has fallen on our game.
Complain about this postI would bring Steve Waugh in as coach and he would refocus the team on how to win.
Its easy in hindsight but surely Graveney must regret his pensioning off of Gough and Loye just two of the many "winners" in county cricket who would have made such a difference
BRING BACK GOUGH. Open With NIXON & Collymore. Keep Vaughan as Captain. Best captain since MIKE BREARLEY.
Complain about this postI have a simple questions,
1. Micheal Vaughan had played 75+ matches and averaged (no pun intended) 26. England won CWB series without Vaughan.Why was he made the captain in first place?
2. What has been so different in last 8 matches?
To say replace Vaughan as captain is a wrong analysis. England lost today because of lack of preparation. England lack a plan and nobody in ECB setup cared, even though everybody knew about it.
If the same lack of planning continues England arent going to do any better no matter who is the captain.
Complain about this postWe've lost too many good players from the 2005 Ashes team, Trescothic, Jones, Hoggard etc. The other players carried Vaughan through most of that. Time he went.
Complain about this postI totally agree with Aggers and think the power struggle between freddie and michael vaughan has spilt over onto the pitch in the form of atrocious performances, what an embarrassment to listen to the commentary today (not your performance Aggers of course). Despite the excruciatingly humiliating defeat, I have thoroughly enjoyed watching you, Manish and accomplished guests each night reporting for BBC 1; how I wish I was there!
Complain about this postLiving in Australia, as I do, being a proud Englishman as far as Cricket is concerned is becoming increasingly more difficult. The result against South Africa was one of the most embarissing defeats that England had suffered in the last 10 years. I do not really know what has gone wrong, I think that basically we are simply not good enough.
I agree with Johnathan Agnew that Vaughn and Fletcher must both go, infact I would also relieve Vaughn of the Test Match Captaincy as well, and get rid of Graveney as the chairman of selectors, to have this man who never played international cricket as chairman has been hard to endure over the recent decline in English cricket.
I would make Collingwood Captain for both forms of the game give the coaches job to Tom Moody, with Graham Gooch as Chairman, and then start again.
Ray Jackson, a very depressed Englishman, surrounded by Aussies in Sydney.
Complain about this postEngland were terrible: I won't repeat at length what others have said. It brings me back to the "minnow" question, though. Really Eng have been a minnow team in this WC. If JA's logic regarding minnows is accepted, then we could have played this WC with only 5 teams: the actual semifinalists plus Bangladesh, who have frightened a few others, despite the loss to Ireland. The other test teams failed to get their act together, if they had one at all. As for Duncan Fletcher, I agree that he's done a great job for English cricket in the past, but this is one winter too far. He has to go, either now or at the end of the summer.
Complain about this postCould not agree more Mr Agnew. My last comment was "how much longer can England carry Vaughan" (in the one-day game). England can hardly sink any lower than this so some drastic changes must be made now, not only in personnel but also in the whole approach to one day cricket. Pick a young athletic team of skilled, fully fit and intelligent players, shut them in a room and play video tape of SA, Australia and Sri Lanka playing the one day game. Maybe in 4 years from now we will provide a serious challenge and not have to worry about scraping past the likes of Ireland and Canada. What a shambles.
Complain about this postWhat a shambles, drop Vaughan and Flintoff, make Stauss the captain and open with him and put the best player in one day cricket at three, and follow the 20/20 way of trying to score runs putting pressure on the opposition.
I am a Yorkshireman and feel that someone with passion should be involved as coach, even 'bumble' a Lancastrian would be better, and stop this thinking that we are in the top flight of cricket because in this world cup Ireland have shown more passion than England.
Get rid of the 'gentlemen' at the top and completely change to people who care and not in it for the wrong reasons, we will never be in the top 4 in world cricket with this attitude.
Complain about this postWhat a shambles, drop Vaughan and Flintoff, make Stauss the captain and open with him and put the best player in one day cricket at three, and follow the 20/20 way of trying to score runs putting pressure on the opposition.
I am a Yorkshireman and feel that someone with passion should be involved as coach, even 'bumble' a Lancastrian would be better, and stop this thinking that we are in the top flight of cricket because in this world cup Ireland have shown more passion than England.
Get rid of the 'gentlemen' at the top and completely change to people who care and not in it for the wrong reasons, we will never be in the top 4 in world cricket with this attitude.
Complain about this postIt seems to me that two main problems occured concerning Vaughan and Flintoff.
Complain about this postVaughan came back as captain, out of form, having peered over the fence at Flintoff's failure as captain.
Freddie goes out on the town (sorry, delete town, insert sea) and loses his self respect. How can you bat with that on your mind. Then Vaughan sticks his head in the sand and opens today with the two most OUT-OF FORM batsmen ever.
This was a disgraceful batting and captaincy performance by England.
Here is a naive question for you all. Why is it that when in English cricket, if we lose, we blame the Coach and yet in Football we blame the Manager????
But Freddie we do still love you. I noticed that when you got dismissed, the pub emptied and you were 8 to 1 in the bookies for highest score.
Surely, Freddie, you can do better?
Although I admit I was happy with the squad chosen, looking back it was a huge mistake to have Vaughan, Bell, Joyce and Strauss as the only options at the top of the order. We needed to replace one of Strauss or Joyce with a big hitter - Loye being the main suggestion.
The second fault though was the chronic lack of imagination in working with what they had. Joyce/Strauss were obviously not fitting the bill up at the top of the order... but Dalrymple's batting had been fine... why not bring him in up the order? If he gets out swinging away at least he would have only wasted 6 balls raher than 30 odd prodding!
I liked the look of:
Strauss (c)
Dalrymple
Pietersen
Bell
Collingwood
Bopara
Nixon
Flintoff
Plunkett
Panesar
Anderson
Looking forward I think the wicket-keepers position needs looking at, and either Plunkett or Anderson need to be replaced by a genuine wicket-taker (S.Jones?). I'm a Mahmood fan... but only with the red ball please!
Complain about this postYou only have to ask yourself one simple question: why aren't the best cricketers in England, playing cricket for England?
Complain about this postI don't understand this, the thing is that South Africa did slog, I heard you commentating on Test Match Special you said many times "That's slashed over the slips for four" how is that not slogging? Even though it was a humiliating defeat South africa did the right thing to boost their net run rate.
I remember the Ashes and that England had not played enough cricket by now there really is only ONE explanation for the Ashes defeat and that's overburn or being worn out. They haven't played particularly well because they have played too much cricket they haven't had a month's break for at least 1 maybe 1 and-a-half-years.
The past year in England cricket
India tour
Sri Lanka playing here
Pakistan playing here
ICC champions trophy
Ashes
World cup
It doesn't get any better for England with India and the West Indies coming over here. There has to be a break for England. This is exhausting playing top quality teams time and time again.
Paul Collingwood would not make a good captain because the way he acted when bowling against Bangladesh was not "captain like" behaviour. He sets high standards because he is the best fielder in the team but he was just moaning on and on about the fielding. He has to be more supportive if he wants to get anywhere near one-day captaincy. The sensible idea is to get somebody in with at least a little bit of experience Andrew Strauss for instance did a good job against Pakistan and that could solve his form worries because he played well against them as captain and he was vice captain behind Andrew Flintoff but now he's out of contention due to the pedalo incident. It would be stupid of the ECB to elect him as captain because this puts worry and doubt into Strauss's place in the side which is not good for a player which has had no confidence since he captained the side in the summer.
Why is all the pressure coming to Michael Vaughan now, he has never been a good ODI player which is shown by his average. He as you said he is a good Test player that's why he tried to defend so he could get settled in but I don't understand why Ian Bell was playing like him, Ian Bell is not under pressure for his place so why couldn't Vaughan play shots carefully and at his own pace while Ian Bell went after the bowlers at the other end. Stupid batting if you ask me. But, no they just left the ball which gave South Africa confidence. Why did Vaughan elect to bat? He didn't even try to bat except for 2 boundaries but that's not going to get you a high score? Is it? Obviously not.
I say rest England, elect Strauss as ODI captain and forget about Collingwood as captain. Drop VAughan as ODI captain and for England to find a new ODI strike bowler because they don't have Steve Harmison anymore.
Complain about this postPathetic. England have to wake up to the fact that they are a mediocre team living off the glory of an ashes victory that happened almost two years ago. Time to try and remember the hunger that brought them that win. Will it be another 20 years before I can be proud of my team again?
Complain about this postwell well....who on earth advised Michael Vaughn to bat 1st today...was he watching any cricket played at Kensington Oval this year?? gosh man, what a sad story...you have a top order thats failing so you win the toss and decide to bat against a strong 6 prong pace /seam attack on that wicket...what on earth were you thinking Vaughn?
anyway the better team won, although not an English supporter, i was supporting Eng today but must say this is the worst performance by any major team in this world cup even worse that the losses by India . Pakistan and SA to the minnow teams... in my opinion this ranks as the worse I have ever seen England play.. Vaughn and Fletcher must go..they lack any imagination for the way one day cricket should be played...
Complain about this postI completely agreed with the comment about vaughn (can I be bothered to spell his name right?). How can he bully his way back into the team, pretending he is fit, and is playing well? Living off of the ashes is exceptionally sad. I remember an article in FHM about how much he hated Ricky Ponting's attitude, but do you think Ricky Ponting is now talking to some equivalent Australian magazine about how he hates Freddie or Michael? No, he just got on with the job with setting the record straight - that England are over-expectant and are poor exponents of a game that has moved on beyond their capabilities.
Exceptionally sad.
Complain about this postGet Tom Moody in as England coach.
Man-for-man I'd argue that England and Sri Lanka are pretty similar, but yet Sri Lanka seem to play attractive, exciting and excitin cricket.
Why?
Because we have the old English attitude of 'Lets just play ourselves in and see what it gets us(the same philosphy as with any of out sports, particulatrly football).
Why not, for once in a while, dont we just 'give it a go' and to and play with a positive approach, and try to outplay our opositions with some attacking cricket (football or rugby for that matter) and attempt to put them under pressure?
Of course Australia are better than us, but part of their gameplan is to attack and put their opponents out of their stride. Why dont we do that?
Because as a nation we dont have the tactical nouse or the ruthless edge.
It all stems from our school days when we are taught to let eveybody have their equal chance at playing. Perhaps if we allowed for the best batsmen to bat and for the best bowlers to bowl and to give them a winning attitude rather than this "it's the taking part that counts" then maybe we would succeed at the top level. I'm all for this fair play attitude that we have, but in order to win world competetions, we need to not give a stuff about anyone else but England, and then maybe, just maybe, we might achieve something for our miserbale little spoting country.
Nick, Luton
Complain about this postHopeless. Absolutely hopeless. Fletcher's got to go, Vaughan has got to relinquish any involvement in the one day team - now and forever. No more excuses - the tactics of stonewalling for the first 40 overs then trying to get 100 in the last 10 overs simply isn't good enough - not when all your opponents are looking to take the initiative with aggressive shot making right from the start.
And when Vaughan was being interviewed afterwards, he kept trying to deflect his own abject failures of batting and captaincy by constantly referring to the Ashes series debacle.... but not to the 3 wins over the Aussies in the ODI post Ashes series.
In those games Mal Loye played with aggression and gumption and partnered not by Strauss or Vaughan - but by Joyce. And when these 2 did get out - then at least they had kick started the innings, set the tempo and posted their aggressive intent. That winning team - which won the competition didn't even include KP, let alone Vaughan....
And then they go to the World Cup - without Loye, but with Vaughan - and immediately, a winning team becomes a losing team as the wheels start coming off.
No excuses Vaughan - you have been absolutely rubbish - you hurried back from injury way too soon. Our demise is your fault and the craven ineptitude of the selector system in telling you to take the Winter off to concentrate on this Summer. Your fault, your responsibility. RESIGN THE ONE DAY CAPTAINCY NOW!
Complain about this postand you know whats the worst part of it all
NOTHING WILL EVER CHANGE
it needs an aussie or someone (like tom moody) to get the coaching job and go in and sort the team out, kick out the people who are to old for the next world cup, sort out whether harmison can be bothered etc etc and especially sort out englands batting and bowling
why they picked mahmood over plunkett who was taking wickets with the new ball (why we succeded in aus) and hitting lower order runs defies belief, seriousely i have to ask whose selecting this team
Complain about this postIn ODI we need an established opening pair of bowlers & batters...without these we do have either a springboard or foundation to build a score neither do we have the ability to curb & uproot the opposition openers. We also need a mature robust leader who commands respect...sadly I DONT THINK WE CAN FULLY FILL THESE NEEDS !
Complain about this postIn the meantime I would go with these 14- Loye, strauss,afzaal,bell, pietersen, bopara collingwood,flintoff,plunkett,key,cook, read ,panesar, hoggard [or anderson]--thus playing collingwood as the all-rounder & captainat 6 and flintoff as a primarily a bowler at 7----- i am just a 61 yr old who fondly remembers tyson , bailey ,kenny b etc
To Victoria...
I think you'll find that the Cricket Correspondent and indeed the whole TMS team, like the BBC in general, has to be impartial. I'm sure they'd 'talk England up' if there was anything worth talking up, but if you'd care to take a look at England's recent ODI record, there isn't really much to be talking up, is there?
Face facts, we are just not good enough at the moment to compete on a regular basis against the best teams in the world. Don't shoot the messenger!
Complain about this postAn awful and embarassing performance, really now is the time for a complete overhaul, Duncan Fletcher, his time is now up, he has done some great things for England, but since we won the Ashes in 2005, it has rapidly gone downhill, 5-0 humilation down under, and now this, Michael Vaughan has now proved he cant play ODI cricket, and should never attempt to play again in this format, Colly is a good choice, Pieterson he too could be good as captain.
But please make sure the coach is not a selector, this does not work, as it has clearly been demonstrated over the past year.
Complain about this postI agree that should Vaughan be relieved of his misery in one-day cricket, the captain should be Collingwood and not Pietersen. Vaughan cannot score any runs at all and for him to get into double figures like what happened today is a great achievement and that is the reason why he has never scored a one day century.
Complain about this postThere was only going to be one winner today. We cannot beat a side when it matters. It depresses me to say this....but the England team are a disgrace.
Complain about this postI think i can solve Englands problems. Let me open for them. I like to take a swing at everything. Im better than Vaughan
So to the next England coach
Drop me an email
Complain about this postIm ready, finish uni in summer so Im free for next 10 years
Aggers. Your correct, Change is necessary and unavoidable. Unfortuantly one problem, the ECB tough decisions just aren't their thing! So unless a few people fall on their swords it'll the same old drosh for years to come!
Complain about this postOh time to vent some spleen? Sorry if I go on, but as somebody once said "Oh I could crush a grape!" there I wont get moderated for that.
Everybody here assumes that the fantastic KP has held the England team together in this WC. The stats show that Colly is Englands best batsman to date in the competition. He is also the outstanding fielder in the team and becoming a useful one day bowler.
KP is a slogger who has had some success but at the same time the rest of the world has now worked out their plans for him and he is becoming increasingly marginalised as a batting force and at the same time an unsettling influence on the team with his me, me, me style of play.
It saddens me to say I thought we would be outclassed today but the manner of the defeat was embarrasing.
English cricket needs a wholesale clean out, sorry DF you have done a good job bringing england up from rock bottom but now is the time to go.
MV sorry go back to county cricket and get some form back.
Freddie, take a break you look jaded.
Monty keep up the good work, lets hope you dont get dropped again and thank god you have the mental strength to bounce back from repeated dissapointments.
Ravi I knew you could do it when you destroyed me playing for Brittanic lodge on a sunday 4 or 5 years ago! The tallent at that age was awesome even then. Perhaps England need to look at young Ahmed as well.
Nixon, sorry Paul when you were 1st picked I thought to myself WTF but you really have made me eat my words, I really hope the selectors now give you the chance to carry on and play in that test match that you obviously are determined to play in, you really are one of the few players in this squad who gave everything and played with pride.
Plunkett they dropped you for Sajid! hmmm nuff said.
Now is the time to look at Onions and Broad, yes they are young but so are Bopara and most of Bangladeshi team oh and Rankin whos stats make every english bowler except Freddie look like what they are .... poor. (I cant say what I really meant to say there can I?)
Why do England fans and selectors look at youth as a bad thing? Look at Taibu 17 in his 1st testmatch Sachin 17 again in his 1st test match and as I said before most of the Bangladesh team!
My only saving grace in this whole debacle is my Irish parentage at least I can say I supported one team at this WC who whilst outclassed for most of this competition and out of their depth but at least they played with a smile on their faces, played with pride and gave 100% for every second of every match they played in. Oh and dare I repeat it but they have beaten more test playing nations in this WC than England have in the last 4!
PS anybody want some tickets for the Oval this year don't think I can be bothered to go.
Complain about this postI can't believe you are making Fletcher the scapegoat for England's total unprofessionalism since winning the ashes.
Nothing will change unless you start at the top with David Graveney. Firstly selection for the hammering in Australia was based on sentiment and not form. This left members of the Squad who did their job in the English summer feeling frustrated and wondering what they did wrong!
He did not select Tour teams officially but everyone knows he had input!!
Sentiment also involved in picking Vaughan for world cup and Aussie ODI series even though he had no cricket for over a year. Much the same for Tresco, Giles and Harmison Geraint Jones in the ashes! Why did Plunkett or Lewis not get a look in for world cup!??
Management of Trescothick issue a joke and could be seen a mile off.
Freddie should have been dropped as captain for ODI series in Oz as all could see he is a better player without. But then his antics off field again part of bad team management!
The leaving of the ball in first 3 overs last night was final straw for me!
It goes to show how bad their techniques are! Nobody plays in the V anymore. Obsessed with the sweep and reverse sweep. When did you last see an aussie reverse sweep? They don't need to because they play every ball on merit and shot selection is 98% accurate.
England are down to about 30%. England may have the talent but bad shot selection is down to coaching at international and lower levels!
Graveney needs to go. Moody as coach is a no brainer! Get him in and lets get a better manager not from the old boys club!!! Dare I suggest Botham!? No sentiment involved at least start by getting some ruthless attitude back!
Complain about this postI think the point is rather simple...and some people seem to be clouding the issue. The clamour is not to replace Michael Vaughan the captain...but Michael Vaughan the batsman. If a fair selection policy was followed (i.e. no 'favourites') and Vaughan was only a batsman he would have been replaced long, long ago...As for Duncan Fletcher, well he has arguably done more for the national side than any coach in the modern era - however, as with his captain, the strength seems to lie in Test Cricket. To have the nerve to call himself a coach after playing a part in devising the 'lets not score any runs in the Powerplay periods' strategy is bordering on folly. Weirdly I hoped we would receive an annihilation today - as it would force many to wake up and realise that currently England are an extremely poor OD team. Shameful!
Complain about this postKP .. for captaincy...
he is the one with loads of positive attitude, which u see in other successfull captains.. aka ponting, fleming, smith...
Complain about this postengland, forget Tom Moody as your next coach. He has been appointed coach of West Australia. As for the party boys of England, sack the lot and start again. They cant live on the result of 2005. Every time they have played since, it makes if harder to comprehend how they managed to win that series. Maybe it is the weight of the MBE's that is weighing them down. They must be the worst team ever to win such an award.
Complain about this postgo home England and start from scratch.
To avoid any further embarassment to us pomms here in Australia, send them home NOW.
Perhaps they are home sick, or just enjoying the holiday.
Rubbish yesterday, crapp today.
John, W.A.
Complain about this postEngland did not play well enough to be in the semis. The whole wc is a joke in the sense that they drag it on for so long.. If you are going to have a long tournament then the winner should be first pass the post, or have a few preliminaries and then get into the knockout. It's a joke that a team like Sth Africa can lose a game to bangladesh and have no disadvantage in facing the top team when it comes to the semis.
Complain about this post"This defeat, and particularly the manner of it, was chastening, devastating, and embarrassing."
Complain about this postSo true. I was there and it was beyond embarrassing. Behind me sat a Barbadian who had been a vocal supporter of England before linch, but he said eventually "Man, get the runs and let's go home, don't prolong the agony."
No doubt we'll win in the summer and the England boys will feel theyve done enough once more.
Complain about this postIt would not have been right for England to continue through to the semi final stage.
They only got as far as they did due to luck of the draw in the groups.
In my opinion, heads must roll -
Fletcher, for poor team selection, why no Broad?
Vaughan, dreadful batting- Englands one day batting continues to struggle, therefore we can't carry him. Straus is well capable as captain.
Bell cannot push on fast enough in the the power plays.
Mamood and Anderson do not seem to be able to bowl a consistant line or length (strange I thought it would be second nature for a professional cricketer)
We need to look to inspirational ex England players as coaches, ie Darren Gough.
Complain about this postI also see some critics having a go at K.P. As he is Englands best and most consistant batsman, you still can't expect him to succeed every time.
Why don't we try our complete test side in the next one day series - can they do any worse?
P.F
When are crickets administraters going to realise that the game has moved on from their initial 19th century beginnings. If from the 18 counties with a playing staff of 20 professionals there are 360 people earning a living from the game but there are realistically only 50-60 of these that will ever approach international level. So we have 300 people treading water until their mid 30s before finding alternate employment and therefore not pushing standards. I propose the following:
Complain about this postThe 18 counties to be divided into 6 federations of 3 counties. The teams will not be professional in that there will not be any contracts. Players to be paid as they play. Each county plays each other twice in a round robin tournament. Each federation then selects a 20 man squad based upon performances and averages at the end of this first tournament with perhaps one captain's pick for a bowler and batsman. The 6 federations will then play in a round robin competition to determine the champion team.
Points will only be given for a win, draw or tie. No bonus batting or bowling points. Prize money to be graduated more steeply than by continually halving (maybe £270000, £90000, £30000 etc). Only by making winning more attractive or losing more punative will we breed players who know how to win.
England are out. Everyone expected it. Why the surprise? Now we're going to have to listen to opinion. We'll have the bandwagon jumpers who now rate the captian they loved in 2005 with the Ashes victory as a fool. We'll get the dyed in the wool cricket fans who hark back to the days of Boycott, Trueman, WIllis etc as being some halcyon era of English cricket (it wasn't. England still lost heavily back then and we were poor in those days too). We'll have the people who say England shouldn't go out for a beer, that one beer ruins their preparation and makes them worthless (yeah right, do all of you people ever go out in the week with your jobs? Does that make you useless at your jobs? Of course not so don't talk nonsense). We'll also have people calling for Ian Botham to be part of the setup. Why? He was a terrible captain and his views are generally fairly average. Just read Nasser Hussain's autobiography to understand Nasser's thoughts about Ian and the ever-changing Botham viewpoint. We've even got the anti-KP army out!
It's clear that Duncan Fletcher has had his time. He hit his peak with the Ashes win. He brought England up into being a really good team. Alf Ramsey did the same with the England football team in 1966 but they were poor in the 1970 World Cup. Football had evolved and England hadn't moved forward. I admire Duncan for the job he has done and he should always be praised for what he has done for English cricket. It is time for a change right now and Tom Moody is the man. If he were free, I'd be onto Adrian Birrell's phone asking him about the possibility of taking over but he's out of the picture by his own admission. Tom Moody is the man I would go for. Whether we'll get him is another matter. We lost Troy Cooley, a decision that seemed incredible at the time and even more so now given the winter.
I'm going to give the bowlers some slack here. We haven't bowled that badly all tournament. James Anderson has been fairly consistent, Flintoff's been fairly tight, Saj has had his moments (more on him later), Monty is still incredibly inexperienced etc etc. I'm sure the England dressing room at tea was a horrible place to be in. They knew they had batted poorly and there must have been a tremendous feeling of dejection around the room. That dejection was increased tenfold when Saj Mahmood came on. Shocking, absolutely shocking. In two pressure situations, both here and the first Ashes Test, we've seen a frontline England opening bowler reduced to bowling utter shash. Again, I point you back to the loss of Troy Cooley. As a bowling team, we have gone backwards since his departure. Saj is a difficult one to defend. He has ability, he has height, he has pace but something just isn't clicking. He needs the right amount of coaching and the right amount of development time. In Autralia he said he felt somewhat isolated on the field and that suggests he wasn't receiving the right guidance.
A number of people have been comparing Monty to Daniel Vettori, pointing out Vettori's success in the World Cup against Monty's alrightish performances. Vettori has been playing for what seems to have been forever. I remember watching him playing youth cricket for god's sake, he pretty much went straight from that into the full side. Monty's been playing international cricket for just over a year. He's bowled in India as part of his debut, faced Pakistan (usually regarded as good players on spin), played the Aussies on their home turf and played in the World Cup. Name me another international cricketer who has had a first year in international cricket like that against opposition like that and been as successful as Monty has been. Warne? Got carted in his first few tests. McGrath? In and out for a while. Murali? Go and check out his Test performances over the first 13 Tests. Compare those to Monty and then tell me Monty's been disappointing. Monty will be playing for England for the next ten years in my opinion and will get better and better. He has a huge amount to learn but his work ethic will see him through.
Our line-up has always been wrong. I've advocated opening up with Flintoff as he's not someone who nurdles in the middle order well and there's no point in sending him in at 6 to go up against the spinners time after time as he has done. He is a poor starter against spin. He should have opened today. Give him the freedom to play, if he'd have gone in at 2 instead of Vaughan and smacked a few good runs, the smile on Graeme Smith's face would have dropped. Instead we played right into their hands. I'm sure the South Africans are surprised at how easy it was to get under the skin on the England team. They trounced up physically and psychologically.
The future. Oh the perishing future. One-day cricket has evolved and we didn't keep up. One BBC blogger said he was wondering where the innovations were this World Cup. You've seen them without noticing. Power is the key. It's come into one-day cricket just as it has become the dominant factor in tennis. In tennis you can have fancy shots but you are nothing without fitness and power. That has been shown by Andy Murray's rise since upping his fitness levels and getting a more powerful serve going. We took four players who are not power players in Bell, Vaughan, Joyce and Strauss and put them into the positions dominated by power players in other teams. Even Bangladesh have better hitters in the form of Tamim Iqbal and Aftab Ahmed. Our power hitters came in after the top order had dawdled or failed and really we only have two genuine hitters of a ball in the form of KP and Flintoff. Collie can swing a few around but he isn't a power man. People have talked of a lack of a strike bowler but I feel our lack of a top 3 strike batsmen has let us down far more than any bowler has. We need genuine power at the top of the order. KP at 3 is a must. The stat on the top run scorers in the World Cup was revealing: only Styris in that list of six was outside of the top 3 in terms of batting position for their teams. My ideal line-up looks like this right now:
Strauss (captain. I believe it could be the thing he needs to rediscover his top form and will inspire him)
Trescothick
Pietersen
Collingwood (vice-captain. Perfect role for him, he and Nixon together can act as the on-field cheerleaders and let Strauss work out tactics)
Bopara (someone who I think has a genuine chance of being a future England captain)
Flintoff
Nixon
Anderson
Simon Jones
Stuart Broad
Panesar
In terms of the international team as a whole, we need a group of ten to 12 players to work on. Ed Joyce is there, Liam Plunkett, Saj Mahmood, James Hildreth, James Benning, Steven Davies (wicketkeeper), Mark Pettini of Essex, Graham Onions, Alex Gidman, add a few more names on there. All of these people will learn how to bowl and bat in varying situations and I believe they can go on to play for England and be successful. Our country sctructure is better than it has been in the past. We need harder faster pitches, every nation in the world is suffering through a loss of pace and bounce from the Windies to Australia. More pace and bouce will help the quck bowlers learn to bowl aggressively and any spinner worth his salt likes a bit of bounce in a wicket.
Complain about this postLet's move on from this and make KP captain. His petulance and ego has more often than not got in the way of sublime and brilliant innings. If that could be harnessed with some measure of responsibility then maybe he'd be a success.
Complain about this postone name : MAL LOYE
Team Should be...
Strauss
Loye
Bell
Pietersen
Collingwood (c)
Bopara
Flintoff
Dalrymple
Nixon
Broad
Anderson
Loye to get the innings off to a flyer - if he fails so be it, with batting down to 8/9 it shouldn't matter too much. Strauss to play a steady innings but play shots (as he did for a while against SA). Bell to try bat through the innings, but Pietersen in at three ahead of him if we have a long opening stand. Pietersen doesn't deserve this criticism - his ego is part of his game... Shane Warne wouldn't be nearly as great a bowler without his intimidating personality. So big Kev failed today, have we forgotten the hundred against the Aussies? We expect too much of him and he rarely fails to deliver. I am the first to concede that he often gets out by throwing his wicket away, but a lot of that is down to the pressure placed on him to up the run rate after our habitual slow, stodgy starts. Colly in at five as a finisher and also to be given the captaincy - he has a great temperament and is brilliant in the field. In addition Strauss needs to establish himself in the side and so should not get the captaincy. Bopara ahead of Flintoff at 6 but Flintoof at six if teh 4th wicket falls towards the end of the innings. It takes the pressure of Freddie and allows him to concentrate on his bowling - he is more important to England as a bowler than a batsman and perhaps less pressure may help him to regain some form.. if this happens then I think he should well be moved back up the order. I picked Dalrymple ahead of Panesar - I feel the runs he gets batting are more important to the team than Panesar's bowling is in teh one day game (although hes great in tests... perhaps a bit more experience in first class one day games may give him more variety rquired for ODIs.) Nixon at 9 - chirpy and sometimes v. handy with the bat. He's capable of a quickfire 30 or 40 that could be very valuable at teh end of an innings. I'd go for Broad at 10 - i've watched him in the county arena and I think he has great control for a man of his age, capable of wickets too. Anderson at 11, pipping Jon Lewis due to his wicket taking ability. Lewis is unlcuky to miss out - his economy rate is very good.
Overs:
10 from Freddy
10 from Anderson
10 from Broad
7 from Dalrymple
7 from Colly
6 from Bopara
All very changeable, with Pietersen's off spin another viable option. Hopefully Freddy and Andersen to get a couple of wickets early on, with Broady consolidating good work until the 2oth over. The medium paces to slow it down in the middle - all fo dalrymple, colly and bopara are capable of 10 good overs if required.
Would love to know what other people think, would like to hear your responses on this blog
Thank you all. Bye
Complain about this postTest cricket is not a problem for us but why do we struggle with one day cricket? Michael Vaughan is the answer to that. He has passed his peak we need Trescothick and Strauss back opening the batting for us again.
Complain about this postone name : MAL LOYE
Team Should be...
Strauss
Loye
Bell
Pietersen
Collingwood (c)
Bopara
Flintoff
Dalrymple
Nixon
Broad
Anderson
Loye to get the innings off to a flyer - if he fails so be it, with batting down to 8/9 it shouldn't matter too much. Strauss to play a steady innings but play shots (as he did for a while against SA). Bell to try bat through the innings, but Pietersen in at three ahead of him if we have a long opening stand. Pietersen doesn't deserve this criticism - his ego is part of his game... Shane Warne wouldn't be nearly as great a bowler without his intimidating personality. So big Kev failed today, have we forgotten the hundred against the Aussies? We expect too much of him and he rarely fails to deliver. I am the first to concede that he often gets out by throwing his wicket away, but a lot of that is down to the pressure placed on him to up the run rate after our habitual slow, stodgy starts. Colly in at five as a finisher and also to be given the captaincy - he has a great temperament and is brilliant in the field. In addition Strauss needs to establish himself in the side and so should not get the captaincy. Bopara ahead of Flintoff at 6 but Flintoof at six if teh 4th wicket falls towards the end of the innings. It takes the pressure of Freddie and allows him to concentrate on his bowling - he is more important to England as a bowler than a batsman and perhaps less pressure may help him to regain some form.. if this happens then I think he should well be moved back up the order. I picked Dalrymple ahead of Panesar - I feel the runs he gets batting are more important to the team than Panesar's bowling is in teh one day game (although hes great in tests... perhaps a bit more experience in first class one day games may give him more variety rquired for ODIs.) Nixon at 9 - chirpy and sometimes v. handy with the bat. He's capable of a quickfire 30 or 40 that could be very valuable at teh end of an innings. I'd go for Broad at 10 - i've watched him in the county arena and I think he has great control for a man of his age, capable of wickets too. Anderson at 11, pipping Jon Lewis due to his wicket taking ability. Lewis is unlcuky to miss out - his economy rate is very good.
Overs:
10 from Freddy
10 from Anderson
10 from Broad
7 from Dalrymple
7 from Colly
6 from Bopara
All very changeable, with Pietersen's off spin another viable option. Hopefully Freddy and Andersen to get a couple of wickets early on, with Broady consolidating good work until the 2oth over. The medium paces to slow it down in the middle - all fo dalrymple, colly and bopara are capable of 10 good overs if required.
Would love to know what other people think, would like to hear your responses on this blog
Thank you all. Bye
Complain about this postGuys, do you want the truth or not?
I wonder to what extent is England's malaise a reflection of its 'fairness defines us' outlook on all things? What have they won since 66 (& even that was due to lots of refereeing luck - Argie player sent off lightly & Hurst's turning point 'goal' against the Gerry's did not cross the line in the final - check Wiki) ? So what else did they win before then? WW2? No, again beaten convincingly. It was the Americans who won (with all due respect to the brave Brit soldiers).
To be competitive, you have to have a killer culture. England does not have a killer mindset or killer culture (apart from its growing subculture). They are a softly softly nation. How the great Brits of yore would be turning in their grave at what England has become. I can just see the expression on Henry V111's or Cromwell's face after last night's effeminate performance...
Disagree? OK maybe this is more palatable:
England would be much better if only for Fletcher, if only for KPs selfishness, if only for Colly as captain, if only for Strauss as captain, if only for Vauhan as captain (during Freddy's tenure), if only for Trescothick, if only for the MBEs, if only for the Xmas controversy, if only for poor preparation, if only for the drinking, if only for Broad, if only for Mahmood, if only for ...... (I think we get the general idea)
Complain about this postEng.got their just deserts;Their Arrogance & complacency, based around a fortuitous home Ashes victory & a meaningless tournament in 'Oz, plus their habit of leeching from other countries every conceivable player who was eligible by means however tenuous, meant they Didn't have the sufficient Determination & Resolution to Succeed.
Until they change their questionable National 'Psyche', Long may it Continue......
Complain about this postPaul Collingwood as England Captain? That's the punchline of an Aussie joke about MBEs, single digit batting displays and whitewashes.
Yet more priceless sporting comedy from England.....
Complain about this postHaving Paul Collingwood as captain would be another kneejerk move that would not be good for english cricket. Collingwood, by his own admission, has limited captaincy experience at any level, so to throw him at the deep end may sabotage yet another england player.
Complain about this postUnlike in 2003, the is not obvious replacement to Vaughan as captain, which is why I would keep him as captain, but have him bat at ffive or six should his form still be in same shape come the next ODI series.
As for the comments on Kevin Pietersen, justified, yet a talent such as that has to stay especially in a poor side. Its the job of the coaching staff to shape all players into working for the team. This is one area that has to change. Personally I would ask Fletcher to politely leave his post, not forgetting all the good he has done for our game. The new coach, whoever it may be, should have international experience but more importantly new ideas to freshen up what looks a very jaded team, both physically and mentally.
Perhaps the most worrying aspect of the English team is the genuine lack of quality in the bowling department. Batting-wise the talent is there and its needs someone to stimulate it, whereas the bowlers have little threat as this is highlighted in todays performance. Only the West Indies have a weaker attack out of the major nations at this world cup and this is has shown in both ODI and test matches. For the next coach this is the main concern in my opinion as the bowlers there are supposed to be the future, but a hell of lot of improvement is required first, which should begin by playing more county cricket at the start of this season, the only way these youngsters will continue to improve as being hit all round the Caribbean by the likes of Ponting, Smith etc is doing no good what so ever.
A lengthy post I know but some things have to be said!!
Where does one start?
Fletcher - one or two good series wins, nows the time for change.
Vaughan - even his captaincy has started to fall apart thats without mentioning his fitness and batting
Flintoff - needs a complete break and to realise how much talent he has and not to blow it all away with poor off field issues, don't believe all this big star build up from the media and get on with playing cricket
Anderson, Mahmood and Plunkett need to get back to their counties and learn to bowl line and length first then bring in their on specialities when they;ve shown consistency.
Nixon was a stop gap but has given every ounce of his limited ability.
Positives - Bopara, Collingwood and Pieterson, although Pieterson needs to show a little more team responsibilty at times.
Come on England - a complete overhaul of our game is required, right through from coaching to how many foreigners are playing in our league, best not get started on that one....
Complain about this postWell done Aggers - wise after the event as ever - never before. You are as bad a commentator on cricket as your boys are at playing the game.
You arrogant English will never learn because you will not learn from others. You're 20 years behind everone else and you still repeat your "we can take these positives from this game" messages. Oh so thick.
English cricket journalists are the worst in the world. No insight, no history, no knowledge. A bunch of overpaid losers reporting on the same and its been going on for oh so many years.
The team and the press let down the most long suffering (and most blindly consistant)supporters in the cricketing world.
If you want to read knowledgable cricket commentary forget the English press, John Arlott et al can sleep safely in the knowledge that there's no danger the current mob will trouble them.
Agnew in particular has no insight at all.
The world is laughing at you all, players, journalists and fans.
The most funny thing is that you won't even get it now - you did have some talented players and have wasted them (Freddie as captain - ho ho ho - no lessons learnt from Botham???). MBEs for winning a series 2-1 for fux sake.
Well, at least you keep the rest of us entertained.
Complain about this postIn the Ashes we were poor, the CB/VB series we where not much better but somehow we won a few games. That was a opportunity, we had a small amount of form, then Fletcher discards Loye and then the openers did not work. Its hard to blame Bell, Strauss or Vaughan in failing in the top order. Bell is not an opener. Strauss is a fantastic test batsman and not given a chance in ODI's. Vaughan is a brilliant leader but not a ODI player.
Complain about this postWe need a change.
KP wants to bat 4, ok he is the best ODI batsman (on the rankings) but could Freddie and Loye or Bell open? With the other being 3. KP 4 and Colly 5, with the captaincy?
Ravi Bopara, is a Mark Ealham or a Adam Hollioke, good but is he right.
Sadly Fletcher has to go, England cricket needs a change. Dear old Bob Woolmer would have been brilliant but sadly he died. With 18 county sides there must be a top coach jumping out? Or could go for a Tom Moody type, look what he has done with Sri Lanka...
Yet another shambolic display for England's elite.
Vaughan: If he wasn't a good captain and just a regular player, he wouldn't be within 100 miles of consideration for selection. 20 balls to get off the mark today? Heck, tip & run for heavens sake
Fletcher: I have a huge amount of respect for the guy as he transformed our test side from abysmal, to a competitve unit. But I do think he needs to go. Everything has became too stale and people are too comfortable within their roles which has made them all complacient. I'd like to see Moody accept the job if offered, and see what he can do with both forms of the game being immenesly low at the minute.
Ins: Shah (Middx), Mustard (Durham), Benning (Surrey), Benham (Hants), Broad (Leics)
Outs: Vaughan, Nixon, Mahmood,
Complain about this postBoycott was talking about the shell life of Fletcher and that was after the champions’ trophy debacle. He was also calling to remove him. But at that time everyone criticised him but to Boycott's credit he sussed something which is proved now. England needs a lot to do. First of all try to focus more on One day cricket. Try to play more and more one dayers so that English cricketers get more experience and exposure. Number of test matches should be reduced to make way for ODI's. Like all the other countries England should play more one day tournaments. There is no point in playing too much test cricket if the end result is still 5-0. Right now England is at no where in cricket. Average test playing country and below average one day country. Why it’s important to play more one day cricket? The answer is simple; if England manages to build the good one day side then it will become good test nation as well.
Its a proven fact that a one day cricketer can be a good test player for example Andrew Symonds, Sanath JAysuriya, Gilchrest etc who all proved themselves as the one day specialists before settling into test cricket. But a specialist test cricketer more probably find it hard to settle into test cricket. Here you can take the example of Hoggard, Harmison and specially skipper Vaughan. Vaughan is the typical example of test cricketer whose strokes look outstanding in test cricket. But when it comes to one day cricket same strokes go straight to fielders. Actually one day cricket have exposed Michael Vaughan’s short coming as a batsman. Now the same field settings like one day, can be used in test matches to frustrate him to play the bad shot
Complain about this postI totally disagree. Vaughn is arguably one of the greatest batters/captains there has ever been, and I think it irresponsible to blame him for Englands poor batters. Vaughn has a role to play and he plays it perfectly, the others around him, such as Flintoff just need to pick up the pace. It'll be a sad day for cricket if Vaughn is forced to retire, he has my vote of confidence all the way.
Complain about this postSomeone said that very few of England's players would hjold down a place in the top four teams??? Pietersen at 5 for NZ or SOuth African and FLintoff first change for NZ of Sri Lanka??
I'm sorry but thats a bit much Pietersen is world no.1 for good reason - he bats brilliantly in an average side. Flintoff, despite his recent form with teh bat, remains a great bowler capable of getting ijnto any side in teh world. He can still achieve what he did during teh ashes - form is tempolrary, class is eternal. nAlso watch out for Stuart Broad - in a few years I think HELLL BE CLOSE TO THE top in terms of world bowling rankings.
Colly would probably make SL, NZ and SA and Bell would also be able to make some of those teams. Perhap sonly Pietersenand FLitnoff would play for Australia but lets not forget that Australia are a fantastic side - Hussey at 6 would open for England.
Complain about this postIf England are missing one man then it is Marcus Trescothick... I previously mentioned that Loye should open but I would prefer Trescothick - he is more reliabel and more likely to make bigger scores - and naturally scores quicklly. WHile STrauss is capable of attaining a high strike rate, he always appears to be 'forcing this.'
Hahahahahh. This time no more excuses. Absolutely Hammered. No ifs, buts, or maybes.
And this is the real kicker. After the 5-0 Ashes defeat, you whiners wont be able to hide behind your usual excuse: "We value test cricket more."
Sorry state of English cricket. Sorry state of English sport in general. Why dont you stop participating in sporting events and concentrate on what you do best: binge drinking and teenage pregnancies.
Wasssuppp????
Complain about this postThis England performance today is just tmid. Nohting much else to describe them. England need changes by bringing about changes in attitudes of the players is a better approach to selecting different players or coach. But Vaughan has to go and make way for Joyce.
There is lot of talent in the England team, but there is lack of mental strengthm discipine and also the lack of ambition to win. With players in this frame of mind, how are the expected to perform?
Complain about this postWhen looking at why England are failing I feel you have to look beyond the team to some other issues.
There needs to be more competitive cricket in schools - many don't even have pitches let alone regular competition. Also one and half hours a week of PE is not good enough, for kids' health or our sporting teams.
Kids need to be encouraged to get into the sport, due to promotion of the game. No terrestrial coverage is insane. If young people aren't watching, how will they ever aspire to start playing?
There needs to be better encouragement for players showing promise and a new approach to county cricket - hopefully from people in charge who are more concerned with producing English talent than making money from overseas players.
Ex players need to start getting actively involved in coaching and helping the players of the future, rather than sitting on their backsides in comfortable high-paid jobs, constantly criticising our players. Be honest about our performances, but how do you expect them to gain confidence with the barrage of public and continual negativity?
Finally and most importantly, we need to take a serious look at this country's attitude to sport. I feel players don't hate losing enough and are mentally weak compared to other nations - this needs to be addressed.
As for the current team, how can you expect to play well when your captain is playing so badly? He should never have been on the field and Freddie should have been moved either up or down our order. Bell should have been left at 3, he's not an opener. Selection and tactics have been very dubious.
Just my opinions of course, but I think it's all a bit of a mess really, but it goes far beyond the players out on the field.
Complain about this postLike most comments below, I agree, it's time for a change - how we can expect to succeed in limited overs cricket in 2007 while adopting tactics that were handy in about 1987, I really don't know. The failures are not even exciting or enjoyable to watch!
In the current game, the idea of countering Australia et al by 'building a platform' [very slowly] seems sheer suicidal lunacy.
At least if we tried to score at a decent rate during the first 15 overs and lost a few wickets we'd hopefully have a few runs on the board!
I thought the whole approach was summed up well in a quote from Vaughan after the game - "the idea was to bat first...build a target...around 220-230" - 15 years ago this would have been competitive, but not today, the bar has been raised.
Maybe the team are watching old videos of the opposition before matches, when that sort of score was handy.
A sad, sad day and the most abject, embarrassing mismanaged awful performance I've seen from England - and lets face it, we've had a few over the years - due more to a lack of form and confidence largely borne from the chronic slow, archaic, inflexible batting plan than a complete lack of ability from the players. (Vaughan and Mahmood excepted, they truly have no place in the one day team, Freddie has just looked completely shot/burned out for the last couple of months now and needs a rest).
Change the coach, the batting order, the captain and the approach, make the Sunday league 50 overs per side and maybe we'll get further next time round.
Great summary Aggers, enjoyed your commentary as ever!
Complain about this postIt has proved to be an all too typically embarassment for English cricket followers. There will be questions asked, that is not in doubt, but lets hope there are a number of positives to come out of the tournament. In my opinion there are a number of talented cricketers that can begin to build a path towards the next World Cup in Asia such as Alistair Cook, Stuart Broad, Ravinder Bopara, Adil Rashid(given a few years)and other emerging talent that we have witnessed with the Academy and the 'A' side.
Nasser Hussain and many others have proclaimed the great job Fletcher has done and if Fletcher himself stil feels he is the right man to do the job then a refreshing of the coaching setup is required rather than a new coach unless a big name is available.
Another important question to be asked is preperation. A common saying of 'Fail to Prepare, and Prepare to fail' rings heavily and unless the players themselves join the likes of KP in approaching the game positively, then we can await another tirade of (deserved)complaints this time in 4 years
Complain about this postI hate to launch a tirade at an individual, because there were so many in the team culpable for such a heinous display, but Sajid Mahmood is just simply appalling. Why people such as Aggers can hold back the criticism to such an extent as to call him merely 'worryingly fragile' is beyond me. He lumbers up to the wicket in a lacklustre manner and pings the ball down willy-nilly. He bowls looking as if he knows he will be thumped all around the ground. And this merely embodies the general malaise, the disconsolate body-language and demeanour that swamps the entire team. None of them look like they think they can win. KP looked bored today, fed up with being in such a terrible team. Michael Vaughan said it was the batting that really needed work, but the South Africans only lost one wicket in their innings, not exactly a bowling performance that offers much consolation. What a bunch of losers. Oh, and well done AJ Strauss.
Complain about this postI couldn't agree more with you Charlie about KP - as a player I respect that he's a talented batsmen and I wouldn't even have batted an eyelid at him playing for England - he's perfectly entitled too but Pieterson has done himself no favours by continuously putting down South Africa and gets exactly what he deserves for his arrogance!
Did SA have a problem with Botha playing for Ireland? Hell no, because Botha isn't a glory hunter like KP who has a massive chip on his shoulder! He shouldn't be playing for England if he is so concerned about making a point to South Africa - we have our own Pieterson anyway in De Villiers when he gets going!
Nonetheless, I don't despise the English team, in fact I like all the players except for KP but it's British media I dislike and their attitude towards South Africa - all I've seen are articles poking fun at every aspect of the South African team, exploiting their misfortunes at every given turn. I did wonder if it wasn't a ploy to cover up for England's numerous faults...I see Martin Gough's smart alec comments are no where to be seen right now.
Today was not just an entry to the semi-final for South Africa but it was a huge victory our their petty detractors!
Complain about this postWhen is English cricket going to wake up to the fact that internationally England are way behind and are second rate.
I emigrated to Australia from England a few years ago. The structure for cricket here is so much more proffessional and they are so much more enthusiastic.
You should see the number of kids from 5-6 years upwards learning cricket.Watching their heroes,Warne,Gilchrist,Ponting,Symonds,Hayden in fact you could name the whole team.
You can not say the same about the English team.Unfortunately some of them are not World Class players. It is not their fault, it is the fault of the structure behind them it is the way Cricket is taught in England.
Wake up!! Get back to the grass roots and start developing cricket properly or England will never overtake the likes of Australia as Number 1 and so called second rate teams at the moment will catch up and embarrass English Cricket even further.
COME ON ENGLAND!!!!
Complain about this postAs far as I can see England have tried to play a test team - bar a few bowling changes - in a limited overs arena.
Complain about this postThe very fact that the media was hyping the South Africa game up and that we could have reached the semi finals if we'd won was a farce, we don't deserve to be there and we've shown nothing to suggest differently.
Vaughan is a test batsmen but not a one day batsmen and he shouldn't have been allowed to throw himself back in at the deep end like he did without any form to speak of.
We're missing a Trescothick at the top of the order and as good as they are Bell, Strauss and Joyce are not one day batsman!
The issue about Pieterson is well made - it's the Beckham syndrome. Talented player beyond question but an individual not ateam player and never will be. So you have to either accept that and really manage him very hard or ditch. Tough but ask the question - do we want good individyual mperformances or a good team ?
The Test rankings are a joke - England play more Test cricket than anyone else and we live off two things. Home advantage (as we've always done and nothing wrong with that) - and a general surfeit of International cricket, made manifest by the corruption on the Indian Sub-Continent.
We won the Ashes in 2005 by the narrowest of margins - Australia had a broken attack after the first Test and we just beat them. They showed just what they were about this winter and for most of us it was a foregone conclusion.
It is about the team spirit and the team ethos - not just about getting drunk.
A Confession : A friend of ours is part of the Australian set-up and ne and his colleagues were always happy to share a beer and a joke with England in 2005 and 2006/2007 but.......they knew when to ease up. The examples of Ponting and Symonds are fantastic in respect of turning careers around if you want it. You can have a beer (don't we all) but you need to have self-discipline.
The Austrailian Team would appear for each Test morning in a crewbus straight from the hotel, laughing and joking about the respective drivers (and always squad players - Michael Clarke was ribbed mercilessy about his skills behind the wheels). Ready to go.
We gave MBEs to some lucky people in 2005 and the decison will haunt English cricket for ever. Don't blame the players - blame the idiots at New Labour desperate for any PR stunt in the face of a rotten government riding on the back of any 'English/British' success they could get their hands on. As most of them are Scottish, it's no surprise they turn their attantion to English success when it happens.
Fletcher has been a good coach. Biut please bear in mind that he is a batting coach and always will be - he simply does not understand bowlers, witness his preference for Giles over Panesar because the former can bat a bit........... Additionally he is very defensive minded and this will work now and then but not consistently in Tests and most certainly not in One-Dayers.
But we also need to remind some players that they are on borrowed time and that the system of Central Contracts breeds nothing but complacency.
Complain about this postVaughan has not only been out of form, but anyone watching him around the field can clearly see his unfit.
Complain about this postThe England management's obsession on getting him back so early after such a serious injury and more importantly such little cricket has backfired spectacularly.
Must confess to being tired of staying up all hours watching England cricket expecting a decent performance. I have never seen a top 3 play so poorly so often. Bell is no opener, Vaughan is short of everthing, it would have better to tell Freddie to have a go.
4 of 5 leading run scorers in the tournament are all top 3 and having scoring rates above 80. Englands? The opening 9 overs were disgraceful.
Although Strauss played well on his type of pitch last night and Collingwood made a useful contribution, our chances went when Pietersen got out.
I am sorry, but Vaughan has to be judged on his batting not his captaincy and perhaps it is also time for a change at the top.
Please do not start the old 'played too much cricket' conversation, it does not wash with the many fans who have spent thousands of hard earned pounds supporting their team in the last 12 months.
As for the CB series. I live in Perth WA and I can assure everyone it was blatantly obvious Australia cared not one jot about the tournament. The Ashes and the World Cup was all CA were intersted in.
At least we have been saved the embarassment of watching Australia humilate us again in the semis. Any one of the remianing teams can stop Australia on their day. It would be so good to see arrogant Mr Ponting taken down a peg or three.
Yours, tired and depressed.
Complain about this postI totally agree with MJ. England are well beaten most of the time when your "hero"KP is in the side. He clearly bats for himself and notice how when you really need him to perform he gets out at crucial stages. Funny how two of his big centuries against Australia have seen him dropped 5 times! The last ashes and the one in this world cup. The guy does nothing for the team. That will teach England to keep importing talent that is only looking for cash!
Complain about this postKP, out-thought by Nel, that really shows how he fails to grasp the basics of cricket. With his talent he should rarely get out. When is someone going to burst the bubble that Flintoff is a genuine number 6. He is a bowler who can bat. HIs average at both test and one-day level suggest a number 7 at best, and in reality he would be good at eight. And as for Sajid, every batsman capable of playing square of the wicket must be beside themselves with glee everytime he comes in to bowl. England keep talking up the importance of test cricket as opposed to one-dayers. Well five nil and this Cup campaign have shown the management and players to be totally incompetent. I am selling my passport!
Complain about this postOne of the least competitive, incompetent performances I have seen in 25 years of following England. Something needs to change very quickly.
Complain about this postI'm Welsh and feel ashamed to support them!
vaughan is not a one day batsman. i can hardly wait for tresco to come back in the mix.patient batting is for test matches.were is mal loye when england need him most?
Complain about this postOh Aggers, we knew it would come to this. All knowledgable cricket fans could see the ashes victory was a very close run thing and luck played not a little part.the euphoria has led to complacency in certain quarters and upped expectations to a ridiculous level.You certainly hit the nail on the head with your observations of our lack of aggression. the game has changed forever. the days where a batsman could take a few overs to settle at the crease have long gone,even in the long form of the game, nay especially the test match arena. Even Atherton, and as a lancs fan i adore him, concedes this point and lets face it he used to take a day and a half to settle at the crease! Vaughan has never suited the one day game and he never will. Flintoff is our best bowler who can slog like a demon, but is no better batsman than, say Dominic Cork( whom I think should have been in the one day side a lot longer)so why does everyone pin their hopes on him for runs? play him as a bowler.Anderson and Saj are decent bowlers...but thats not good enough, I've whinged on for years about the lack of Lancashire plyers in the side so why do the selectors not even pick our best English players? we choose players for their temprement I'm sure , but I think this is a problem.WE WANT BOTHAM!
Complain about this postI'd agree that Fletcher needs to go - he's too tactically inflexible. However, letting him limp through a tough summer of Test cricket might well be counterproductive. If we're going to start afresh he should go now. I'd like Tom Moody, Peter Moores or Dav Whatmore to take over.
However, I think Collingwood as captain is a bad call. He has experience and temperament but he's not a leader. Personally I would stick with Vaughan: he's the shrewdest captain around and Graeme Smith showed today how important that can be. But if they're going to change the skipper, it should be Bell or Pietersen. I reckon captaincy would lift their games, whereas it would just overload Collingwood.
A final point: did anyone see Mahmood's attempted stop on the boundary today? Playing for his country in a World Cup match, it was disgraceful. I hope never to see him in an England shirt again.
Complain about this postI'm not an English supporter, so I have no axe to grind.
These hysterical calls for mass sackings, a complete dismantling of the ECB, etc is way over the top. England simply needs someone who can turn a group of talented, and sometimes selfish, individuals into a motivated team.
I watched the Aus V Eng game in Sydney earlier this year, where England won by 92 runs. What a difference to today's performance. The key to that game - opening partnership of 60 between Loye and Joyce, 107 from Joyce. Plunkett 3/24 (econ 2.44).
More importantly, this game marked a point where I thought England had begun to play for each other as a team, rather than play for their individual averages. The nerves were gone and the guys showed great passion. But instead of building on this, what happened? the three players mentioned above are dropped. An out of form and disruptive player is brought in to captain the team.
Players like Plunkett and Joyce can feel very hard done by (unlike others, I think Loye would have been found out in this world cup) - when you don't have a selection system based on merit, how can you possibly motivate people?
Complain about this posti play for stanmore cricket club (angus frasiers old club) and our first team would of put up more fight then they did, if your going to lose go down fighting at least but england didnt, no passion, rarely do you see any type of passion from any of the england players, watching the bangladesh v ireland game all there batters showed emotion coming off the pitch when they got out but not with england that would be to much for an england player wouldnt it.
Complain about this posti have a 12 yr old old boy who is an aussie but wants to play for england has an average of 166.50 in qld last year looking for scholarships to schools in england you need this kid england he will be the greatest cricketer since bradman trust me
Complain about this postjust for a change i agree with you aggers on the need for change - my only doubt is with the captaincy issue - to my mind there's only one man for the job - andrew strauss - and look at the dignified way he has dealt with his demotion during this sorry campaign - forget about using flintock as captain again - he may be a good cricketer but he's not a captain.
Complain about this postit's disappointing but maybe with a bunch of young talented cricketers such as monty, ravi bopara, stuart broad etc: and perhaps with a new coach on the horizon england may get back on track but they'll have to get rid of the old approaches to the game if they are going to succeed in the future.
Apologies to the English, but this result really was for the best. Now the four finalists are all teams that would make some kind of sense as potential World Cup champions.
Complain about this postThis is yet another example of English sport being dogged by overhyped players, poor management and outmoded ideas.
This will not change until as a nation we get back to basics. We have become a nation of spectators. Looking on from fancy stadia as the world's best continue to crush us in all forms of sport.
The answer is simple but long term!! We need to become a nation of doers, thinkers and innovators.
Don't watch this rubbish or things will never change. Get involved in grass routes and get your kids down the park.
This is the reason why Australia dominate so many sports. People are involved and not just spectators.
More green spaces would be a big help Mr. Blair.
The future is grim for English Sport unless we act NOW!!!
Complain about this postWell it is time for change Fletcher said England underperformed as coach surely he is to blame for that.The same players keep failing Vaughan Strauss Flintoff Bell all have to go. New coach build the team around Collingwood Peiterson and Bopara. Forget reputations
Complain about this postAbit off topic... How come the England cricket teams demise since the Ashes win hasnt beem blamed on the increased media on them and their 'stars'...maybe it is time to just report the sport only and maybe not put them under more stress
Complain about this postFletcher and Vaughn must go! We need change at the top, if we are to see anything happen. I feel embarrassed to be English.
Complain about this postGet an aussie in to run things, we need a change in mentality.
For the umpteenth time I reiterate that bowling and fielding wins cricket matches every time. The best four bowling attacks are in the semi-finals, and England never stood a chance.
Who can survive the wreckage?
Bell as the anchorman, Pietersen, Collingwood, Flintoff, Bopara, Anderson and Panesar, and maybe Strauss, as the new captain.
Who is responsible for the tactical inflexibility?
The same person whose inflexibilty started the Ashes with Jones and Giles re-instated and went for Joyce over Loye, and Nixon over Read, and Mahmood over Plunkett, and Dalrymple over Bopara, and failed to give Broad a run out.
Who remembers Freddie replacing Athers at the Oval after the first ball of the innings and demolishing a Surrey attack including Saqlain, Bicknell and Tudor including a six off the back foot straight back over the bowler's head? Why not stick Freddie in early, as when Botham opened with Broad, and save Vaughan or Bell in case it didn't work?
Fletcher has always been totally out of touch with one-day cricket. He has frankly only survived as a Test coach this long, due to his coinciding with England having some talented players around at a particular time (N.B. Clive Woodward, Sven) and could hardly go wrong. But now it is over.
At the beginning he had the ability to identify players in county cricket who could step up to Test level like Vaughan and Trescotick, but those days are long gone. For all his commendable loyalty to certain players, there has been as much disloyalty to others.
We used to produce great wicket keepers, Godfrey Evans, Bob Taylor, Alan Knott and Jack Russell. but under present criteria only Knott could bat well enough to play for England. What sort of message do we send out to aspiring stumpers? If Fletcher wanted an experienced keeper who can bat why did he pick Nixon when Alec Stewart was in the Caribbean all the time?
I suggest Kate Middleton is more likely than Chris Read to keep wicket in the first Test of the summer.
Complain about this postRearrange these letters TISHE!
Complain about this postSack the lot.
Send them all to Alcoholics Anonymous.
Pathetic.
Yours,
An exasperated England Fan
The answer does not lie in the players, some of whom are among the best in the world when they are playing well.
Complain about this postThe whole England problem lies in one word : LEADERSHIP. Good leadership creates high morale and high morale
produces a winning side. This is true in
all walks of life.
England do not have any bowlers that can really punish a team. Even if they dont take wickets, there is no consistancy to keep the runs down.
Complain about this postI do not know what we have around but Mahmood and Anderson really are not up to the task.
I hope Ian Bell does well as an opening batsmen and pray that Straus will be his opening partner. Push Freddie into 5 with collingwood seperating him and Peitersen, at 4. I think that Bopara deserves a long run in the team and then after that it really is a free for all.
Dear Mr. Agnew,
I shall also be e-mailing you at TMS on this subject, but I would like to point out that back at the end of the 2006 English Summer, some of the TMS commentators were expressing concerns that England's schedule was too packed, in the coming months. Within weeks of the English season finishing, there was that shennaniggins in India, (which deprived the England side of traditional pre-ashes warm ups in Australia) then the ashes tests, then the CBS series, then finally, the World Cup. Is it any wonder that the batsmen are so tired that they are unable to hit the ball properly (excepting Kevin Pietersen, who had a break owing to a cracked rib; maybe if Mcgrath had 'rested' a few other batsmen in that way, better performances would have been forthcoming from others in the WC)? Or that Flintoff is so jaded that he snaps and has moments of 'pedalo madness' on top of health/fitness concerns regarding a cough that he is unable to shake?
Why on earth did the EWCB agree to this schedule in the first place? (I suspect that the answer is probably because the men at satellite TV who pay their wages held them to ransom to produce an appropriate number of games, or to face the consequences.) If they are contractually compelled to produce a side for that many games, then it is apparent that entirely seperate and DIFFERENT one day and test sides are needed. When you were playing international level cricket, Mr. Agnew, can you assure your readers that you played as much cricket in the past twelve months as, say, Paul Collingwood has had to face?
C. Evans.
Complain about this postThe way in which England lost this match was a total embarrassment.That opening 7 overs we faced made me writhe and squirm in my armchair and I hope this is the last time I ever have to watch such a ridiculous and farcial approach to the powerplay overs by players wearing the England shirt. How on earth could the England camp ignore every post that has been written warning about the batting line up being all wrong during this world cup is tantamount to arrogance. Mistakes are only mistakes in life if you fail to learn by them. On this count the world cup for England was one huge mistake from start to finish. Pleeeze install Ian Botham as Manager forthwith and at least let us lose with some dignity by playing our cricket like men, not boys.
Complain about this postGoodbye Belly, goodbye Vaughany, bye Fletch. Let's do it now, not after the summer....
Complain about this postI must say it was delightful to see Shaun Pollock bowl so well for South Africa. The whole tone of the match was set by Pollock & Langeveldts excellent bowling. KP's dismissal was frustrating because he is very talented but didn't apply himself. He just went for a slog & got out.
Now for the semi-final against us Aussies...another very late night & hopefully it will be another exciting match between the two.
Complain about this postWelll well, it is fair to say that anyone with two cricketing brain cells to rub together cannot be totally surprised to where this world cup leaves us.
We have seen farcical organisation by the ICC, a dominant Australian side that looks unbeatable and the four teams that were predicted to be semi-finalists cruised through (with the exception of the inconsisten South Africans who can consider themselves reborn and ready for the task after disposing of England in the brutal manner they did).
As an England supporter ODI cricket does come as a distinct second priority and I am sure that we will prove our strength lies in test cricket over the summer. Getting thrashed by Australia 5-0 doesn't look terribly good of course but they are so far ahead it is not even worth considering that we are better until their old guard retire (Hayden, Gilchrist, Ponting).
Aggers' 'Change is necessary and unavoidable' stance in unfortunately true. Specific players need to be picked for specific positions. Bit-part players like Glen Chapple and Tim Bresnan aren't going to get England anywhere. Batsman like Owais Shah and bowlers like Jon Lewis should be getting a game in place of the Bells and Mahmoods. Mahmood incidentally has a terrible economy rate in ODIs, whereas Lewis' is significantly better and he is generally much more reliable and more lkely to bowl his ten overs for under 40. Is it really worth having Mahmood in the side for a little bit more batting ability - especially seeing as he has made next to no runs anyway.
Complain about this postsome of the comments are spot on. England were pathetic and let the whole country down. They were more like a disorganised C grade rabble than a cricket team. A club team in Australia could have beaten these guys in a one dayer. Pietersen is overhyped and with everyone else in the team waiting for him to fire, when he doesnt, everyone else freezes. Time is up for vaughan as a one day player. he is simply not good enough. he maybe a good captain, but do not have the shots in one day cricket.
Complain about this postIRELAND IS THE BEST CRICKET TEAM IN THE UK AND EUROPE I SAY!!!
Aggers I don't think it's fair to say that Strauss was blocking the ball. He got off the mark straight away and scored at a run a ball initially.
It's a shame that England have to hang around for another match. I would get Freddie to feign injury and go home and I would do whatever I could to get Tresco back in the frame this summer.
I would also take the drastic action of giving up one day cricket. I know we are obliged to play a number of games but feel we could do this with our A team as a building block to a test career. This is obviously a bit extreme.
However, I do really hope that our one day record has no bearing on our test cricket. We have a number of players, like Hoggard, who are fine test players but can't play one day cricket.
For all his joy and laughter, Monty should never have been playing. That was pure public pressure. Giles being injured was a big blow. Monty is a good bowler, but he is no Murali and thus as a spinner he should be able to field and contribute runs. He is simply not good enough a bowler to excuse his batting and fielding in one day cricket.
One day cricket to me is still like five a side football. I look forward to getting back to real cricket.
Complain about this postIt was frustrating watching the England openers, I was screaming at the TV, for one of them to hit the ball, they started off as if it was a 5 day test, and then the rest followed suit, one word for the whole team (pathetic)
Complain about this posti realy wish all you fools would get over KP.he is the best batsmen in the world for a reason and dont gimme that crap that he kills the team..how many times can a whole nation rely on one guy an dthen want him sacked when he doesnt get any kind of input from anyone else..
Complain about this postEngland don't seem to have the first clue about one-day cricket, and that it is DIFFERENT from Test cricket. Every time they seem to come out using their Test tactics (which aren't that good either) against teams who are playing one-day cricket instead.
Take the lesson from Australia. Opening batsmen are not just "openers for life" - the requirements of a one-day opening batsman are different. Gilchrist would never open for the Test side but he's a fixture at the top of the one-day order. England should be opening with Flintoff and Pietersen, already.
Complain about this postEngland are an awful ODI team but a decent test team simply because they have players who are awful at ODI cricket but good at test cricket: the mentality is of playing tests - no one has adapted to the one day game.
Strauss, Vaughan, Joyce, Panesar: four players who simply have not got it down, the entire riddle of one-dayers. You block maybe an over at most to get a test of the pitch. After that, you start hitting to the best of your ability - there's just two fielders outside the circle! Look at DeVilliers: he goes for it, and many times it comes off, because the field's up.
Hit out or get out: if England had thrown caution to the wind at the very outset, they might've gotten 156 anyway - but in an entertaining 25 overs and not a belaboured, comatose 48.
Complain about this postEven in the sad, long history of ignominious England defeats on the cricket pitch this has to rank up there with our very best tame, and embarrassing surrenders.
Vaughan can't bat, Mahmood can't bowl, and the rest just can't.
Complain about this postJonathan's assessment is spot on. In truth, I fear we are a second division team now. England need a new vision, a new style of play, some new faces and better fitness training, coaching, strategy and management. We got what we deserved, nothing. England is a rich cricketing nation so why are we so poor? At the moment we cannot sustain success.
Complain about this postEngland have lost their way winning the Ashes in 2005 did them no good they have not learned from them and gone forward they have gone in reverse. you can not pick players that are not fit or match fit. get rid of the lot and start again.with people that want to go forward
Complain about this postEngland Cricket Team-England Football Team- Tim Henman-Greg Rusedski-Jenson Button-Andrew Flintoff...all examples of over-hyped one season wonders,or not even that! Smell the coffee...What sports are England good at,at the world stage???
Complain about this postThe whole infrastructure is wrong...too many old goats at the top level!!!!!!!!
Michael Vaughan for NON PLAYING CAPTAIN
Michael Vaughan's selfishness cost England. Desperate for runs... wanted to give himself every opportunity and put Bell under pressure.
Great Captain. Make Him 12th Man and have Him on the boundary at all times. make him a nonplaying captain (emphasis on NONPLAYING).
Have Strauss and Trescothick open, Bell One down. Replace both opening bowlers with ANYONE. We should be fine.
Complain about this postAgger's reaction is typical. Every time a team does badly in the World Cup, there is a call for heads.
I think we have all under-estimated the current team's ability. They had the best preparation - Imagine six months of relentless cricket against the best playing nation in the world! And a trophy to show for their efforts. All they had to do was win one more match - and they would have been within a whiff of world cup
glory.
I reckon, a lot of teams have made dumb calls after winning the toss. I wouldn't blame Vaughn entirely. These are the days of team meetings, video analysis, inputs from support staff. Surely, opting to bowl on a lively wicket based on the results of the world cup so far - was a no brainer!! So why did England opt to bat and make it hard on themselves?
Complain about this postUltimately it would have been a crime if South Africa, clearly one of the better sides in this competition, went out at the hands of this England side.
In retrospect, the CB series win was bad for all concerned because it papered over the glaring cracks in the side's ability. Winning in Australia merely caused various armchair pundits t stand up and start claiming that England really were a good side after all.
This defeat should be good for England. It should cause the same sort of soul searching, spirit cleansing and team building exercises that followed humiliations in previous years (and ultimately led to the successes of 2005). England SHOULD at last get stronger as a result of this humiliation.
Let's all hope so.
Complain about this postSpot on Aggers. The only thing I'd add is that, in my opinion, Graveney has to go as well. After ten-odd years he has achieved very little.
We all know Fletcher has had his day yet Graveney continues to back him. Similarly, Vaughn is no longer world class yet Graveney continues to back him. As with the problems with our international football team, the management (read Brian Barwick) is the constant throughout the years of dismal and often pathetic performances.
Whilst the 05 Ashes victory was great it seems to pale into insignificance now. A 5-0 thrashing and the WC campaign demonstrate we are clearly second rate.
We need a complete overhaul...
Complain about this postEnglish Sport needs a facelift. I find too many worrying parallels between the cricket team and the football team. Who was the cricket selectors' consultant - Sven Goran Eriksson? McLaren? We have been treated to the same gutless leadership in the cricket World Cup that we have become used to from the football leadership.
Complain about this postWe need to throw out the coach/manager in both sports and bring in someone WITH BALLS. Preferably big ones.
The team is doing very badly and only 2-3 players are doing anything with the bat. Instead of taking some of the under-performers and moving them around in the order, to try and shake things up, they take Bell - one of the only men to be scoring big runs, and move him, with the result that he stopped scoring. That was the only change. We carry on picking an unchanged side, with NO IMAGINATION while all around us are shuffling, resting, strategizing....
The stgnant, fearful and over-cautious management has to go. Players like Flintoff and Pieterson need to be allowed to lift the team with some fearless batting, and, most of all, we need selectors and management in place who ARE PREPARED TO TAKE SOME BRAVE DECISIONS AND RESPOND TO SITUATIONS. Enough cross-field passing when we're a goal down and 20 mins to play...
Why all the surprise and outrage against coach and players.It is delusional to suppose that England one day cricket or for that matter their test cricket is world class. The rot really set in during the euphoria of the Ashes win in 2005. To hand out OBEs to a side that somehow scraped past Australia was pure political opportunism and like so many other publicity seeking stunts in Blair's Britain was all sizzle and precious little steak. Indeed this celebrity culture seems to have affected our grasp on reality. We live in tinsel town where the celeb culture rules. Even the navy are caught up in the hype it seems. We need to fire up more than the coach and players and get a grasp on the real world again. How sad that great cricketers of the past who have been honoured at the end of long careers of service to the game have had their awards demeaned by the hype society
Complain about this postWasn't it painful? I've been watching England for 35 years, through lots of pain, but that limp-wristed display was the worst. I actually felt like switching off.
I still think a lot of it is in their heads. They go out and bat on the back foot from the off. Where's the aggression, the desire? If they'd gone out of the competition with some gusto, their reception would not have consisted of boos.
I'd make massive changes. Although there are skills in that team, they need to be made to fight to earn the right to use those skills for England.
I'd drop Vaughan & Flintoff for starters and say that each have to earn their place back through some great batting displays for their counties. I'll grant you Flintoff bowled reasonably well in a lot of the competition, but that's not enough.
I'd drop Mahmood. He's got potential, but I'd tell him to come back when he's cracked consistent bowling at the county level.
The only sure places for me would go to Pietersen, Collingwood, Nixon (I don't care how old he is) and Bopara.
Bell, Anderson, Monty, Joyce and Strauss are borderline, with the latter maybe squeezing because I think he's a half-decent captain.
I don't care if we put some youngsters in and we get hammered. I want to see some guts. Some fighting for places. If we do lose, I want us to go down having shown some aggression and a burning desire to win.
It goes without saying that Fletcher gets the boot.
Complain about this postDavid (9.12 p.m.) - Fletcher continuing to be involved in SELECTION?! Surely that's one thing he should not, not, be involved in.
Complain about this postWarne for coach. Let's stop all the moolycoddling and get tough. Collingwood for capitano.Flintoff to open with Strauss. Well done Dunc. but it is time to rest shamwari.
Complain about this postWell hopefully now with our double shocking performances at the world cups in Football and Cricket - the over-hyped illusion that English sport is good enough to be up their with the best on the world stage, is finally shattered. Time to bring down the wages, and get in sportsmen who value their heritage, and play for England like their life depended on it! Gutless bunch of clueless idiots, the lot of 'em.
Complain about this postThe first 10 overs of England's innings was painful. All of that leaving the ball outside off stump just meant that the SA opening bowlers kept bowling there, where was the threat to them? Vaughan and Bell just piled pressure on themselves.
It goes without saying that England have been a poor one-day team for a while now. But player-wise there remain a number of positives. A comparison with New Zealand for example shows that player for player England are probably a more talented side, but as a unit they are miles apart. Why?
Coach and captain in the short term. If the team looks shot to pieces and demotivated that is their direct responsibility. Also tactically England don't seem in the same ballpark as the top teams.
Players. They have to take responsibility for THEIR poor performances.
The coaching system. This is where the new players are developed, both at a skills and psychological level.
ECB. Is the officialdom helping or hindering progress? Is the structure of England management appropriate?
County cricket. I don't think that this is the root of all evil as Bob Willis says it is. But it does need looking at. Limited over cricket should be played in the same format as international cricket, I can't see the point of 45 over cricket. The 2 division format doesn't seem to be working to me, it doesn't provide enough incentive and there still seems to be a lot of soft cricket played. But England players hardly play any county cricket anyway. Also logically, if county cricket is to blame for the failures of the national team it must also be responsible for the successes!
And yes, those MBE's look very embarassing now!
Complain about this postWhat's everyone so steamed up about? It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it....
Complain about this postI think that the performence was a complete shame. I feel that big changes need to be brought to the English Cricket team. I dont care about how good Michael Vaughn is as a good captain. His performence when it comes to one day matches are horrible. His value to the team is nothing, he contributes absolutly nothing. I quite frankly get tired of him saying that a big score is around the corner. When will it be Vaughn? He needs to be dropped from the one dayers and flintoff, collingwood, and strauss needs to be skipper. I would also move Flintoff up in the batting order. I say this because Flintoff is an aggresive batsmen. He needs to be out there opening so he can hit the ball around and just bat. He obviously needs to move up in the order because he is not doing well currently in the batting line up. I feel that Englands will become better once Marcus Threstotick comes back. I feel that England need more aggresive batsmen for the future. Besides to to the batting problems there are many bowling problems. England simply dont have any good wicket takers. If you look at the English squad there is not one bowler who you could ask to get a key wicket for you. England need to find a bowler who can pick up wickets CONSISTANTLY.
Complain about this postSo England got thrashed. Was that unexpected. Of course not , not when the opposition happens to be a keyed up South Africa. Some hope was given by the foolish attitude they, the Proteas, took with them to their match with Bangladesh but you are talking about the team that is going to dethrone the Aussies.
About KP and the 'aura' surrounding him, he once again proved that he bats for himself. He was all out to show the South Africans and Graeme Smith in particular who's the boss. Well Andre Nel had other ideas. What an awful shot to try given the situation, given that Nel was firing hot, given that he(KP) is the no. 1 ODI batsman in the world. Make no mistake he is a superb batsman but surely someone needs to make him curb his selfish attitude.
Coming to the match Nasser Hussain said it best when he said "South Africa plays ODI's the modern way while England go down the old way". He was referring to the ridiculous English approach to the power plays - keep wickets intact and don't take risks, wait for the last ten overs. It failed spectacularly yesterday.
Anyway the expected have made it to the semis. And we have just seen the team that is going to dump Australia out of this world cup - the back-to-form South Africans.
Complain about this postIt is not often that I agree with the press. Generally, I think profesional sportsmen deserve another chance. Not this time I am afraid. Michael Vaughan, Duncan Fletcher and his team should be ashamed of the dreadful per formance they put on yesterday.
In fact, I would go as far as to say that some of the players should never be allowed to wear an England cricket shirt again.
In such an abysmal team performance, it would be unfair to single out players but Saj Mahmood tops the list of under achievers.
I also want to know who decided that the best way to win a one day game is to take 20 balls to get off the mark. Michael Vaughan is a much better player than that but his one day career must be over.
Make Paul Collingwood the Captain. Br4ing back Marcus Trescothick and Steve Harmison (even if they only play at home) and then pick a squad around them guaranteeing them all at least 18 months to make their mark.
GO on. We have nothing to lose and can only move up.
Complain about this postWhy all the surprise and outrage against coach and players.It is delusional to suppose that England one day cricket or for that matter their test cricket is world class. The rot really set in during the euphoria of the Ashes win in 2005. To hand out OBEs to a side that somehow scraped past Australia was pure political opportunism and like so many other publicity seeking stunts in Blair's Britain was all sizzle and precious little steak. Indeed this celebrity culture seems to have affected our grasp on reality. We live in tinsel town where the celeb culture rules. Even the navy are caught up in the hype it seems. We need to fire up more than the coach and players and get a grasp on the real world again. How sad that great cricketers of the past who have been honoured at the end of long careers of service to the game have had their awards demeaned by the hype society
Complain about this postI Do completely agree with Aggers but I do think it is around the time for a change in the coaching management but not right now, I think Fletcher needs to finish his job on a high, now England have had such a dismall and worrying World Cup...
All the players could have done so much better because they have showed us that they can beat teams like South Africa and Australia, I think that they just felt the pressure too much. They need to get up to Sri Lanka's standard, who are now a very good up and coming ODI team and TEST.
England need to up their standards and this will please both them, to give them confidence but this will also please the BARMY ARMY!!
Alex Vinall
Complain about this postmate, dont know why after botham era eng has never been in good cricketing mind to play with fighting spirit, perhaps should look for foriegn coach (just as for football) or encourage more asian cricketers to play in ENG
Complain about this postWe clearly struggled in this tournament, every other team hit runs at the top of the order early on, we failed to do this, and our bowling was not really effective at wicket taking either against top sides.
The answers are hard to come by. I'd like to see somebody like Maddy at the top of the order to go after the bowling (if Trescothick doesn't return, and push Pietersen up to 3, as the best player and best boundary hitter to take more overs and be in for the powerplays. Put Strauss down to 4 in that role to keep things ticking in the middle overs, he did it very well a couple of years ago.
In the bowling it is largely inexperience as a problem. I would bring Plunkett in for Mahmood, who is too expensive, and then stick with Anderson who is developing well, and then Flintoff, Panesar, Collingwood and Bopara complete the attack. Plunkett is also a better batsman with an ODI 50 to his name.
Vaughan should go as 1 day captain. He's a fine leader, but you can't carry a player in a side like ours, particularly not an opener. Collingwood or Strauss should take over as captain - for my money Strauss as Collingwood may find it hard as the key fielder and also bowling as well.
Fletcher I feel will resign - he's a great coach, the best we have ever had by some distance and he has really turned the English game around, but he doesn't need the criticism flying around from the media. Tom Moody would be the idea replacement I feel, he has worked very well for Sri Lanka in both forms of the game, especially the 1 day one.
So my team would be
1. Maddy
Complain about this post2. Bell
3. Pietersen
4. Strauss (c)
5. Collingwood
6. Flintoff
7. Bopara
8. Nixon (wk)
9. Plunkett
10. Anderson
11. Panesar
Coach: Tom Moody
Aaah I see, what you are saying is that it is all KP's fault that the rest of the team bar the odd performance are woeful?
Shame on you Kevin for not singlehandedly winning every match you play for England!
It is a miracle he still wants to play for England the amount of abuse he get's on here!
Complain about this postGet Botham involved, a proven winner.
Complain about this postHeadline yesterday, "Botham fears mauling by SA"
Spot on.
I cannot help noticing that fewer and fewer readers are responding to these commentaries however good or apt they happen to be. Maybe it is because both the comments and the responses to them them have been repeated time and time again with no reaction of any kind from the cricketing establishment. Now that the players and those in authority have been left with time on their hands they could take time out to read what the paying public has been saying about the England team and set up for a very long time now.
I part company with those armchair experts who are already picking the England team for the coming English summer. I certainly part company with people like the England captain who thinks he has a God given right to carry on regardless of his consistently sub standard performance.
I would suggest instead starting with a blank sheet of paper with none of the names of the present English team even pencilled in. Their performances over the past winter simply do not merit it. A look at the batting and bowling averages will tell you that not one player has been consistently - consistently - good. Even the great Piterson has been out to some howlers which a truly great batsman would never have been guilty of.
I think that England should now go back to basics and hold a series of full scale/ full length trial games both for the Test and one day teams and that players should be selected for the national team on the basis of their performance in those matches alone. Not on the strength of achievements in meaningless matches such as Somerset v Devon or Hampshire v Cardiff CCC, whatever that is. And certainly not on the strength of ridiculous Sunday afternoon knockabout cricket or pie chucking 20/20 games, neither of which is remotely suitable preparation for international class cricket.
Once the squads are chosen and apart from keeping them out of the pubs I would lock them up in a cricket academy for as long as it takes, and raise their game further under the supervision of some high quality overseas coaches and recently retired players.
I would then set them targets for their performances for the season ahead and chuck them out when they fall short. No messing. Out!
Complain about this postRegardless of personnel, one thing must change.
Complain about this postEngland's selection of out of form players and adherence to outdated an inappropriate strategies can only reflect one thing.
Stubbornness.
Please get out of the bunker mentality and listen to the advice of many experts who know what they are talking about. We will never know if Flintoff could have got the innings going at the top. It was never tried.
GARBAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TOO MUCH PRESSURE IS PUT ON PIETERSON.
WE SHOULD HAVE TO QUALIFY FOR THE NEXT WORLD CUP AS WE ARE NOT ONE THE BEST 8 ONE DAY SIDES AND WONT BE FOR A LONG TIME WITH THIS BUNCH
VAUGHAN
JOYCE
MAHMOOD
NIXON
STRAUSS ALL GOT TO GO
FLINTOFF SHOULD BE IN THE SIDE AS A BOWLER ONLY AND BRING IN A SPECIALIST BATSMEN.
WHAT ARE THE ECB GOING TO DO ABOUT THIS. THE FUTURE OF OUR GAME IS IN DANGER
Complain about this postWorld Cricket has moved on while English Cricket is trapped in the past. The Australians have a fielding coach who spends match days at the side of the pitch. Troy Cooley turned our bowlers into a formidable force and we let him go.
Where was the Chairman of selectors, the coach, the captain when half our players were up half the night drinking at the start of the world cup. Some of them were in the bar with them.
England are amatuers,playing against modern professionals and if someone does not do something about it now the game will die.
Complain about this postLike other correspondents I am glad Englands shortcomings were so severely punished forcing a realistic reassesment of our national team. It is no good pretending any longer that Vaughan deserves his place, we should never recall Trescothick who alas can not be relied on and we should face the fact that Flintoff may already be on the way down.I agree with Atherton that the whole county structure needs radical overhaul.It produces run of the mill players not stars.We need less not more domestic cricket and more time devoted to preparation.I dont think Fletcher is the problem but I think he should go anyway and a top Australian appointed. Glenn McGrath should be offered a contract he can not refuse to become bowling coach.
Complain about this postVaughan should not have been playing any international cricket for the past 6 months. He needs to go back to his county and discover some batting form. It is clear that he is not a one day cricketer. After 80 odd appearances his average is around 25. Not good enough for a batsman and his strike rate is very poor. If the man is too stubborn to resign he needs to be fired. The sooner the better.
We need to get people who can score quickly and clear the boundry ropes. Trescothick should as Hussein said be encouraged to return to the one day side and only play one day cricket. That way he would only be on short tours.
Collingwood would make a good captain. Flintoff needs a good kick up the back side too. He needs to rediscover discipline and start contributing with the bat.
All South Africa did was bowl in the right places, field well and bat agressively and confidently. We did none of those things and deserved the result we got.
Complain about this postif vaughan wont jump he should be pushed,starting against w indies
Complain about this postFletcher should be immediately sacked as coach. A capable replacement would be easy to find - just find an Australian.
Complain about this postPossibilities could include Greg Chappell, Tom Moody, maybe even Shane Warne!!
It all sounds too familiar. An England sporting team having one good, albeit brief, showing and we think we've made it. remember how close the Ashes in 2005 really was? 2 runs at Edgbaston, Pieterson's innings at the Oval saving the match, england playing the best we could, Aus' underplaying...
Complain about this postIt is just masking over the real problems each sport has. The Cricket, Rugby and Football associations are run by men (old boy's brigade) who believe it's all about '19th Century' traditions etc. Sport now is bigger, faster than they could ever comprehend. Can't we just take a look at how the Australians and South Africans view their sporting set-ups.
Will England cricket change? Maybe we might wallpaper over the cracks, but the whole set-up is wrong so we'll carry on being failures....
Good News...
The ECB will be unveiling a new competition later this year: The European Cricket Cup. This will be fought out between England, Scotland, Ireland and the Netherlands. France and Germany are also preparing teams for the 2010 competition.
This should give England a level playing field and a chance of winning...
Complain about this postNo doubt we'll get the same old excuses trotted out of Fletcher/ Vaughan's mouth about too much cricket.
It's you job boys get on with it OR hand back your £250,000 a year central contracts and go back to your £40,000 a year county contract.
Or even better get a real job earning 19k a year and having only 4 weeks holiday.
Think you'd soon want to be back travelling around the world chasing a leather ball around.
Don't know how lucky you are, springs to mind
Complain about this postWhat a joke English sporsmen have become
Complain about this postthroughout the world.Defensive and gutless,they
don"t play to win,they play not to lose-and of course
they do.The England cricket team only have two
aggressive players and they are both foreigners.
Pieterson and Loye.Not to mention Simon Jones
who is Welsh.
I don"t mind so much that our sportspeople lose
everything to everybody but at least go down
swinging.
At the moment I am ashamed to be English born.
The tag line for this article just sums you up I'm afriad Mr Agnew. You've turned, or helped turn, BBC Cricket journalism into an extension of the tabloid press with over-reaction and out of context rguments.
To say that Collingwood, respected and vital cog in the badly-oiled machine that England's One-day side is, should captain shows just how YOU have lost the plot and how it is YOU who should be replaced by someone slightly more objective.
I enjoy your irreverent commentary, which fits in perfectly with what Test Match Special should be, but that's where it ends I'm afraid. The more measured comments of Mike Selvey hold far more sway with me.
Collingwood has no captaincy experience and to throw him in at this level would possibly be the cruellest jibe of all.
The captaincy has to go to someone with experience in the role, as it is not something that you can just turn your hand to and do at the very highest level (just look at Flintoff in Australia - out of his depth).
A new one-day ethic is required, and that comes with a new coaching set-up. I'm quite happy for Duncan Fletcher to sit in the Test match coach role as his mentality is perfect for that, and I also think that different captains can work. So, why don't England bring in a 1-day coach, whose goal is to prepare the side for ODIs? This would mean there is no issue with having different players in each squad, and you can also do away with favourites (Vaughan notably) being picked for a form of the game that they are not suited to.
After all, you wouldn't pick Linford Christie in your marathon squad would you? Nor Heile Gebreselasse in the 4*100m relay.
Different coaches, different squads. give it a try, it can't get any worse.
But please, put your thoughts in context before committing them to paper, real or virtual.
Complain about this postThe problem with the England cricket team is very similar to the one with the England football team - we have big names (all with MBEs) who do not perform but management haven't got the whatsits to drop them.
Complain about this postTo go into a World Cup without a hitter in the top 3 is crazy.
And to have 2 of opening bowlers described as "erratic" is a joke.
We have got the perfect platform to find a solution to this, it's called Twenty20.
Every year we get to see the batsmen who can consistently attack bowlers and the bowlers who can handle this pressure. What have our selectors done with this teasure trove of information - called up Paul Nixon - who had a splendid World Cup.
The problem is that very few of our test players play in this competition, so we don't know how well they would stack up against the rest of the County circuit - maybe we need to find out?
I was amazed at Vaughan describing the batting performance as "pretty average." Would 180 all out have been "reasonable," and 200 "pretty good"? It's time for some honest words for the fans who have spent thousands of pounds to watch every dismal, backward and turgid performance of this world cup. A simple "we were awful, we're sorry and there will be changes made" would be the best way to begin. It seems that since the 1996 world cup we've been going slowly backwards and this has to be the new low. Beating Canada, Ireland, Kenya and Bangladesh (only just) is simply not good enough.
Complain about this postI would put the whole debacle of the World Cup squarely at the feet of Fletcher and Vaughan. The whole top order shambles seen throughout the WC was due to that they were trying to accomodate Vaughan. Well that's the point Vaughan never had any one day form cricket nd shouldn't have even been in the squad. What was it, 7 runs in the 1st 6 overs in a one-day international, we score at 4 an over in Test Matches nowadays. This meant the whole of the England batting was set up in negative frame of mind and played accordingly. Not once did England try and impose themselves even on the likes of Canada and Kenya.
Fletcher seems to be the Sven Goran Erikson of Cricket, one good win and he's a genius but in reality his tactics are years behind the rest of cricket.
In fact I'd disagree with Aggers about Vaughan as Test Match Captain. He's been in no sort of form in any format of cricket for several years. Look what he actually contributed during 2005. People questioned the captaincy during the Ashes and said we missed Vaughan as he was a motivator, well he doesn't look much of a motivator now. If anything the top order batting tactics demotivated the team.
Complain about this postFor the person who says Fletcher should be a selector - that is a big no no.
It is obvious Fletcher has his favourites. He'd be calling for Giles to be picked and all the like.
He just needs to go from the English game.
Bob Willis is right. The ECB should get Bob Willis on a board to have his opinion.
Complain about this postAfter all of the disparaging comments made by JA and fellow commentators regarding Ireland's and Bangladesh's worth in the Super 8s. Surely after the performances by England in this world cup, they should also have the "MINNOW" label.
At least Ireland (pakistan) and Bangladesh (india and south africa) have beaten significant cricketing nations!
Complain about this postAs an Aussie, I usually enjoy watching England losing but this is a new low even for them. The whole team is over rated and you are in desparate need of a new coach.
Perhaps it is time to look to Australia for a coach or see if you can coax the bane of english WARNIE or even the monotonous soul destroying McGrath into becoming coach, cause I bet even they feel sorry for
England as a cricketing nation.
Whilst Vaughan shows that he has some good leadership skills, he does not have the great cricketing ability to back it up, the answer:
Replace him with Strauss
Then if you need any more help look to Roy Keane and what he did to Sunderland
Complain about this postMaybe the time has come to re-instate Trescothick and make him captain as he should have been ahead of Flintoff and Strauss. Also, couls Cook have been woth more than some of the other "openers" carried? What does Plunkett have to od to get picked ahead of mahmood who bowls like how AB Devilliers bats, hit or miss all or nothing, mainly nothing. Plunkett has similar pace, swings it in to lefties and offers useful runs in the tail.
Complain about this postThe time has come to get rid of sentiment and brainstorms and pick players who can play.
I have loyally supported the England and Wales cricket team for over 30 years. Over the last six months this has been tested to the limits. Poor players’ doing their best is one thing but incompetent management and leadership is completely inexcusable and deeply offensive. Changes must happen before the supporters drift away. Today is a very sad day indeed for English cricket.
Complain about this postGreat article and I absolutely agree with one of the latest posters, Aryeh Reif.
The England cricket and football teams have been running along parallel lines for some years now.
The English rugby side too was a complete joke until someone had the courage to make a few changes and bring in Brian Ashton. Notice that this is a man who doesn't deal in soundbites - who isn't tired of hearing "we'll be taking positives out of this" in regard to any of our national sides?
Sadly I can't see changes being made with the England football setup (the courage doesn't seem to exist anymore) and as for the cricket team there are simply too many egos in the way and I am not talking about Kevin Pieterson. In my opinion he was one of the few bright spots but even he can't support England's creaking batting for ever.
I'll agree with some posters on this board who say that there are deficiencies with our bowling attack but people should not forget that as soon as our batsmen gave the bowlers a total to defend they all at one time or another delivered the goods (even Sajid Mahmood!) - It's too easy to have a go at the bowlers when they had just 154 to defend against a team that chases down totals of 300+ in their sleep.
In my opinion the problem is that our batsmen have been aiming for totals of 240-250 which would have done the job 20 years ago. Everyone seems to have forgotten that Australia, S.A. etc. have been posting totals over 300 with some ease for a few years now.
The importance of the opening few overs cannot be overstated. A few boundaries, however streaky, MUST be scored even at the expense of possibly losing a wicket or two (we have been doing that anyway so we may as well do it with a few runs on the board). Even the best bowler can get jittery if he concedes 8 off his first over. If we don't adopt this approach the pressure will inevitably cause our better batsmen to crumble. Wouldn't it be better to have Kevin Pieterson or Paul Collingwood coming in at 50-2 off 8 overs? We simply can't allow teams to bowl the first ten overs at 2 runs an over - you can't come back from that.
I am sorry to say that Michael Vaughan, however smart a tactician in the field, simply shouldn't have put himself forward to lead England in this World Cup - or having done so the selectors should have had the courage to say that, on the back of a confidence boosting one day campaign (with some good fortune but a winning campaign nonetheless), they weren't willing to risk his inclusion merely for his sharp captaincy. He has, after all, never been a remarkable one day player and has lost a lot of form with the bat in all forms of the game for a couple of years now.
Don't get me wrong. I hope that the current England crop regain their form and I wish them all the best. I am just not one to subscribe to the "class is permanent" school of thought. Please don't cite Hayden's inclusion on the back of a poor run of form against me here - Australia could afford to pick him because had he failed they had another 7 or 8 players to make the runs - as it is even Hussey hasn't needed to bat recently.
I think a team with our limitations and a lack of obvious superstars (don't believe the media) should be picked on form or potential no matter the age or experience of the players. Ravi Bopara and Paul Nixon are good examples of that. I also think that a player needs to have a bit about them. A bit of Paul Collingwood's grit or even, dare I say it, Kevin Pieterson's arrogance. Is arrogance the problem? Most posters on this on this board seem to think so but ask half the Australian side and I don't think they would agree. The English are, and always have been, too meek. We need to come out of our shells...preferably before the start of our innings!
Complain about this postA little tough on Andrew Strauss - for a while before Vaughan got out, Strauss was scoring at better than a run a ball. It was only when Vaughan was out and Pieterson came in that Strauss sat back.
But it's always been ridiculous that at the start when all but two fielders are in the circle saving the single, England have three nurdlers batting; then when the fielders can go outside the circle to stop the boundaries, in come Pieterson and Flintoff. Madness.
Complain about this postIt will be another case of " we're a young side and we'll learn from this".England have done nothing since the Ashes victory.The MBEs and celebrity went to their heads.Other teams,particularly Australia,never stop developing and striving to improve.People keep going on about what a great captain Vaughn is.Compared with Ponting,he's second rate and we won't talk about their batting!! I'll be very interested to see how he does in the Test matches this summer.Flintoft likewise.One series does not a great side or player make!!
Complain about this postAfter this humiliation I hope that the players on the fringe of the squad will be given a chance in the final match against West Indies and that those so palpably out of form will be 'rested'. Joyce, Dalrymple et al could hardly do worse and are likely to have a point to prove to the supremely obstinate Duncan Fletcher, whose ability to unite the squad has clearly vanished long ago.
Complain about this postIt will be another case of " we're a young side and we'll learn from this".England have done nothing since the Ashes victory.The MBEs and celebrity went to their heads.Other teams,particularly Australia,never stop developing and striving to improve.People keep going on about what a great captain Vaughn is.Compared with Ponting,he's second rate and we won't talk about their batting!! I'll be very interested to see how he does in the Test matches this summer.Flintoft likewise.One series does not a great side or player make!!
Complain about this postFletcher needs to go. Now.
Complain about this postBetter luck next time. Please learn to see the reality and not to jump up and say things before a match like Mr.Peiterson did. I remember warning the SA team. If I am correct he was out for 3 runs.
So please learn not to rust into foolish remarks and fully concentrate on what is at hand.
See you in four years.
Complain about this postReka
The most worrying thing for me is the statements made by Vaughan after the game. He still wants to play ODI's and clearly thinks Fletcher is the best man for the job.
For me Vaughan is not a one day cricketer, never has, never will be in the fast paced modern game.
Vaughan is tactically the best captain for the test team, but being a good tactitian is not enough to justify your place in the team alone. Vaughan needs time at County level to get his form back and to justify his place in the team as a batsman. Only then should he come back into the team. Stand in captain should be Strauss, he seems to revel in the extra responsibility.
Fletcher has to go, he has done a lot for English test cricket and he still has a background role to fulfill there, but with nothing to do with the one day squad.
Mahmood has had an extended chance over the winter and has shown he has not got what it takes. He lacks control, which he could admittedly work on, but when he does hit the right spot he rarely struggles quality batsman.
Complain about this postI was watching the match (Eng v. SA) on TV (pity it wasn't the bbc). After watching the prodding and fishing by the opening batsmen, I got frustrated because I knew what was going to happen. When Bell skied the ball I didn't wait for the catch I turned the TV off. Thus it happened and so I wasn't let down (wish I was).
I enjoy watching cricket, but feel totally let down by the manner and attitude of England. Players talk and think they are world class in Cricket, but this is due to hype and very, very occasionally, rare periods of glory. (Football and Rugby are tarred with the same brush)
I guess there will be changes Fletcher, Vaughn and others, but it won't solve the problem. We must change the system and basics for players, administrators and everyone else involved in
cricket operating in England and Wales. Tall order.
Now - just watch the whitewash flow over the peformance reports on the Aus series and world cup. So it will be back to normal shortly, the ECB don't want us to win they want us to "play the game" in gentlemanly fashion.
It's a cruel, cruel world for supporters.
Complain about this postGenerally slow pitches and conditions that favour swing and reward accuracy. Can someone tell me why Matthew Hoggard was at home walking his dogs?
Complain about this postsupine is the only word that comes to mind - there is an obligation to put pressure on bowlers at the start of an innings as Aggers mentioned. we did not plan to do it - why?
Complain about this postcaptain should be replaced by flintoff and ravi bopara must be brought up in the order..
Complain about this postThis is madness, Vaughan is a great captain and should keep both jobs.
Re Fletcher, he did not want Andrew Flintoff as captain for the Ashes (along with 75% of Cricket fans) but was over ridden by Chairman of selectors David Graveney and Miller. My feeling is, Fred was make captain to keep the sponsors and Sky happy. This decision blew it for both Andrew Strauss (who did well last summer) and Fred. Graveney and Miller must go.
Kevin Pietersen is a great batsman, but like Ted Dexter and Lamb before him, is not playing for the team. How many times is he going to throw away his wicket?
Complain about this postEngland played poorly against all the quality oppositions during the worldcup.
Complain about this postVaughan is an inspirational captain but his form in onedayers is phthatic and if you see the top team they have captain who are performing, which helps the captain to think more on other issues.
When there was talk between strauss and flintoff before ashes i did mentioned Collingwood to lead but at that time my voice was down the hole, Strauss is not inovative and too defensive and for Flintoff i think its too much burden on him when we count all the efforts he is giving. It may hamper his own form as well.
Everyone is too much talking about Monty but i think Darl was performing both with the bat and ball and they replaced in form player with no reason. Monty has been included in Wisdon's players of the year but very sorry to say he dont merely deserve that feet right now. I think he may have got this because he has really won the hearts of fans all over.
If England has to make a ODI team than they have to accept the faults and weeknesses rather than shadowing with one victory. I heard Ian Chappel giving an interview that they relieased and tried to findout the flaws after 1983 WC and worked on that. Result is front of US.
Hopefully some of the ECB is gonna read this :D
Totaly agree, but I feel changes need to be made even more aggressivley than just the coach. A whole new mind-set is needed, or are the ECB going down the road the F.A. went, and never picking a manager/coach that may rock the boat or upset their gravy train
Complain about this postI am from Sri Lanka. I am glad our team is doing quite well. But unlike, other Asian supporters, Sri Lankan Fans don't ask for resignations or abuse our cricketers because a match/tounamant is lost.
Simillarly, I am a huge fan of English Cricket. I enjoy watching the english team play. (The Irish team is also fine)
In my humble openion, only a few teams play real cricket. England is one of them. Some teams/players play a hybrid of baseball/football/etc.
My suggestion, is to give more support and motivation to the team. Back them up.
Now is not the time to sack anybody. If anybody is sacked, then, why sack only the captain and the players.
Too bad england missed out.... but I will still love to watch english cricket.
Like, one writer said, Andrew Filntoff is human, it is nice to see humans, and not programmed machines, play cricket.
Good Luck to the English team and Cricket as a whole!
Complain about this postCompletely agree Aggers.....
Complain about this postVaughan, fine Captain and Test batman, but One Day Captain/Player....never. His record in this form of the game speaks for itself.
Australia play Adam Gilchrist as an opening batsman in the One Day game for one reason, to get the team off to a good start and put the bowlers under pressure from the start. Our efforts at the beginning of the South Africa game were farcical.
We are a decent test team but we need a radical overhaul of the one day side....and a few players need to put their egos to one side and freely admit they were just not up to the task.
I agree with Aggers, time for serious change.
My Test side to play West Indies:
A Strauss (Trescothick if ready)
A Cook
K Pietersen (best batsman in at 3)
M Vaughan (capt) (has to score runs though..)
P Collingwood
A Flintoff
T Davies (wk)
C Broad
S Jones (if fit)
M Panesar
M Hoggard
After the 06/07 Ashes Harmison is NEVER allowed to play for his country again even if he gets 100 county wickets @ 20 ave this season.
Complain about this postengland were a disgrace. After chossing to bate how can you let the first 3 overs go for no runs? Leaving every ball in the 2nd over showed they had no intension of scoring at a competative rate. Vaughan needs to go, just so we can get a good aggressive opener. Joyce averaged 30 this world cup and got dropped why should they same not happen to Vaughan whogod knows what his average was let alone his strike rate. why is Vaughan undropable? Mahmood does not deserve to be in the team and what has happened to flintofs batting?
Complain about this postWe keep talking about Fletcher as a coach and there seems to be a concensus on that one. The issue however is that England are rudderless. They need firm management, to understand the levels of professionalism that are expected of thems. Fletcher has over indulged his charges and shown himself incapable of this. It isalso completely unsound to pay attention to the players opinion of their coach. Graveny keeps trotting out that this player or that is backing Fletcher, as if that meant anything. They are beholden to Fletcher for their selection so for course they are backing him and Vaughn especially so as his standard of 1 day batting form does not even deserve a place in the team, let alone the captaincy. As a final note I think Flintoff needs to be told that from now he is a specialist bowler and will bat no 8 unless or until his form dramatically improves. This will be at the expense of Mahmood and we will go look for a new all rounder. I think this would take the pressure off him and actually help him find his form with the bat
Complain about this postAnother embarrasment and a very sad day for English cricket, alot of big egos and not enough application - why do we continue to pick players that under perform on this stage.
Complain about this postI agree with every word Aggers - to my mind, we can trace the roots of this latest debacle all the way back to the point when we won back The Ashes.
Complain about this postFrom our lowest point in 1999 up to the summer of 2005, Fletcher, Nasser and then Vaughan had slowly but surely instilled fight, passion and attitude back into the England team.
However, after winning The Ashes, it was as if the England team had, en masse, decided that that was it; they'd done it.
Whilst they were taking their drunken bus ride round London, the beaten Aussies were going home, already planning their recovery.
We then went to Pakistan and played as if they should surrender because of our acheivements in the recent past........of course, we lost 2-0.
Anyone care to guess at what the Aussies might have done in similar circumstances?
My guess is that after their hangovers had faded, the attitude would've been "right - let's get on with it". Anyone who didn't would have been dropped without a backward glance.
We suffer from a particularly English malaise - the football team blew it after 1966, the rugby team blew it after 2003 and the cricket team are following suit.
We acheive something, but then expect the status quo to be maintained without further effort.
When will we ever learn?
Instead of Vaughan and Pietersen taking South Africa to task, their taunts against Graeme Smith backfired. If they were going to be arrogant, the least they needed was the talent of the equally-arrogant Australians!
Complain about this postThis is the reason that South Africa was the number one team in the world leading up to the World Cup .
Complain about this postOnce again Aggers column states the facts, argues the key points well and eloquently puts forward solutions to one of the most embarrassing England cricket teams ever. A wonderful voice of reason and class commenting on a team with none. My next visit to Lords is in July...I just hope I feel better about this team then than I do now - I will be reading your column with gusto Aggers to get me in the mood. A credit to journalism, please keep it up.
Complain about this postThis is what I would recommend England do right now:
Send home Vaughn/Flintoff/Bell/Mahmood. These guys have lost all credibility and need a rest in preparation for tests or county cricket.
For Saturday's match against the WI play Broad/Plunkett/Dalrymple/Joyce, captained by Collingwood.
While not sorting out all our underlying problems this would at least be a new-looking team who I expect would perform a lot better on the day.
If they need a reserve fielder then fly out someone from the counties.
I think I will continue to suffer from nightmares of those flamboyant leaves outside the off stump played by Bell and Vaughn in the first 10 overs yesterday for a long time.
Complain about this postvery disappointed i would lay blame with those who believe that buy removing players from the county games it improves the England team it dose not it makes players rusty.
Complain about this postAgree that Vaughan needs to step down as a one day player but not sure about the Coach, is there any one better around? Maybe, but not many. We need to be realistic and admit that we are so far away from being a good one day side that what Ian Botham said was right, START from Scratch, we only have maybe 3 - 4 "good" one day players, I dont actually think we have one World Class Player, would SA or Australia swap Ponting and Kallis for KP, dont think so. The 3 - 4 are KP, Colly, Bopara and FT, (but he needs to have a massive look at his game as he has been so disappointing) we then need to build a side around these, but with young enthusatic talent, such as Matt Prior (wicket and would be an aggressive opening batsmen) and Stuart Broad (Who I would give a go to this Saturday against WI). We need to bring back Marcus to open the batting with Matt Prior, and just build from there.
We are still a good test side, Australia would have beaten most sides 5-0 in the ashes, and you dont become a bad side over night, stick with those player and give them a chance to prove us wrong.............
If the selectors and ECB do read these messages, a message for you now........
DONT SIT ON THE FENCE, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, A LOT OF FANS ARE SO FRUSTRATED THIS MORNING IT IS UN REAL, DONT LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN, DONT PICK PLAYERS THAT ARE INJURED OR BECAUSE OF REPUTATION, PICK PLAYERS ON FORM AND GIVE THEM A CHANCE, YOU OWE IT TO US TO PUT THIS MESS RIGHT.
Complain about this postI agree with the article apart from the following sentence:
"Vaughan is a fine Test batsman."
He is nothing of the sort. He had one good year and has lived off it ever since.
Complain about this postI keep reading that Vaughn is a great captain. Great Test captain I agree but I have yet to see evidence tha he is a great 1 day captain. He has failed to turn the screw when required, do anything really innovative or apply presssure at the right time. yesterday he chose to bat when Sri Lanka had just shown us that if you put SA in first they are more tentative because they still need to figure out what is a good score and this can undo them. When you put them in to chase 155 (which was itself somewhat predictable) they can light up a fag, put on the bermudas and knock off the runs with one hand tied behind their backs. Watch Ponting and learn. every time a game has been getting away from Australia, he has attacked and shut it down. yes it takes qulity to do that, but you also have to have the courage to try
Complain about this posti'd love to have watched this england one day team play at the world cup:
1cook
2dalrymple
3bell
4pieterson
5strauss (c)
6collingwood
7bopara
8prior
9flintoff
10broad
11panesar
nice blend of experience and youth, attacking a defensive, specialists and all-rounders, very good fielders, most of them. bit of batting all the way down. no?
flintoff isn't really an all rounder, is he? - shoddy technique and even on a good day he looks like he's riding his luck. brilliant bowler though. i think it'd be better if we're pleasantly surprised by the occasional flashfire 30/40 than consistently underwhelmed by yet another 5/10 etc....
the future!
see ya later vaughny! and thanks for (some of) the memories! no offence, but i really hope you don't go into commentary! zzzzzzzzz
we've had it all wrong for about a year, and i'm reckon the fletcher/vaughn axis really does have to go in order to move on - they have been brilliant though, overall. i really hope maddy is installed as coach as soon as possible and strauss as captain - i believe he has the natural ability, intelligence and determination to do well.
move on England!
Complain about this postVaughan has not been an international class batsman for many years now - his test average (exlcuding Bangladesh) is 32, his one day average (including Bangladesh) is 26. Most of these runs were made a long time ago - before his injuries. Vaughan should have been dropped as a batsman at least three years ago and, personally speaking, I think it is almost impossible to make a case for keeping a captain who is not in the team on the merit of his play, particularly one who has proved so inept at the one day game.
Complain about this postI think many of those commenting in this blog are missing the point and may actually be contributing to the problem. The reason that the English cricket team and the English football team play so badly is simple. It's fear of failure. No other country in the world gets criticized and downright insulted so much if they lose matches, especially by the press. Both teams are not playing to win. They're playing not to lose. It's not the same thing and in the end it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you're afraid of losing, you will. If you desperately want to win, you usually do. And the higher your ego has ever been, then the worse you'll suffer the problem. Vaughan and Flintoff were heroes in 2005 but a few failures later they're shadows of their former selves and all aggression with the bat has gone. Contrast this with Ricky Pontin, who was a failure in 2005 but received total support from all around him, including the Aussie press and he's now back to his spectacular best.
Complain about this postLook on the bright side:
Bopara - what a find!!! Even yesterday with calamity all around him, he is the only one that stood up and played.
And Flintoff - what a bowler - consistently the only bowler in the England side this World Cup. Shame he's forgotten how to bat.
KP - tries too hard to be English I think. Maybe the pressure go to him. He should follow Graeme Smith's advice and shut his mouth about the whole SA / England switch.
Errrrm...there's not a lot else I think!!
Complain about this postLike everyone on this page, I was incredibly disapointed with our inadequete and woeful display yesterday.
It strikes me that we have far too many players in our team that live in this "comfort" factor, meaning, the same old 11 seem to turn up and play and current / recent form has no bearing whatsoever on the starting 11, how many times did we here about how well messrs Vaughan, Bell, Joyce et al were performing in the nets? this is the same as the Ashley Giles, Gerraint Jones situation last year, Cleary they are buddies with Vaughan (As in Giles case) and Fletchers
This Im afraid is the negative aspect of central contracts as well, becuase our best players play little If any country cricket these days so how on earth are they in form out in the middle?.
Unless we allow more players to play more cricket in domestic matches, I think that yesterday might occur again and again, lets be fair we won the ashes (at home) we then drew with Sri Lanka and beat a woeful Pakistan team, we then got thumped by Austrailia and won a one day series by qualifying for the final through the skin of our Pants (we won the trphy but Austrailia won 4 more games then us in the series) so our form has been on the slide for 2 + years, (in football action would have been taken long ago)
Something clearly needs to be changed,
Firstly Fletcher has run his course and I hate to say it, but so has Vaughan, sure he captained the team reasonably well but, we lost 4 games so surely the buck stops with the captain) l, Vaughans batting was awful and his fielding borders on the verge of liability these days.
Secondly we need to play our cricket more aggressively in both aspects of the game (remember the ashes when we got 400 odd in one day) this sets the tone for the rest of the game, 9 runs in 7 overs is just not good enough. We play our cricket too conservatively these days, we must attack more and take it to the opposition, in the same way as Aus / SA / etc
I pity the poor fans that paid ££££ to get to the Caribean, I just hope England turn up for the final game and give Broad and Dalyrmple a chance and give the fans something to enjoy, because we sure do need it,
Finally and sorry for going on!!, I think it would have been bad for cricket had we made the final and I hope that New Zealand upset the applecart this time around, they are well prepared and play to their strengths and I can see them going all the way
Complain about this postthe problem with england as a whole is are whole game in general the central contracts make it easy from players to slack off we need new staff a new captain and coach and they must go out and watch county cricket and not just and surrey and lancs
Complain about this postThe winning team in Australia was as follows:
Joyce
Loye
Bell
Strauss
Collingwood
Flintoff (c)
Dalrymple
Nixon
Plunkett
Mahmood
Panesar
Best players in this tournament for England were KP, Collingwood and Bopara, with Strauss beginning to return to form.
There should really be a shake up for the Windies game (would that it happened before the Bangladesh match). Then, we can look forward to some real cricket (5D variety) in the summer. Roll on 17th May...
Complain about this postI agree. This was the worst performance of the whole world cup by any team(even surpassing pakistan's performance against Ireland).
The whole world cup has been a shambles especially as our only wins were against second rate nations and even those were a struggle! Every test playing nation we played we got whipped soundly.
Vaughan's contribution with the bat was non-existent and his motivation on the field clearly did not work.
Watching yesterday I thought it was a test match not a one dayer!!!
I think it is time for a change. Vaughan should stick to tests and quit one-dayers. There is no doubting Vaughan abilities as a test captain and player- but a record in one-dayers of an average of 26 with a strike rate of 65 speaks for itself. Bell should go back to 3 and Strauss back to open(especially as that is their natural positions if someone can explain the logic please do).
There is potential for the future, but the changes need to be made now.
Complain about this postI almost agree with your assessment, howver including Strauss in the critiscism is a bit unjustified. He seemed to be the only batsman who was prepared to play a few shots - and he was the top scorer! The snail's pace progress of the the openers put the rest of the batting on the back foot - so that all who followed were under huge pressure to get runs quickly.
Part of the problem is that we are a two man side: in the batting, KP scores runs or we lose; in the bowling, Freddie takes wickets or we lose. They are our two best players, but it's high time that the rest of the team stands up as well.
I agree that Vaughan should step down from the one day team and get some county cricket under his belt - with Colly or Strauss given the reins for the shorter game. As for the rest of the side, one day and test, I hope that we put Mahmood out to grass, until he learns to bowl straight with consistency and, more importantly, puts the effort in. He needs to look at Monty - a godd bowler, an average fielder and poor batsman, but a man who always gives his best.
Complain about this postWith the exception of Bopara, there were no other players from either Sussex or Essex, arguably the best 2 one-days sides currently. Surely there was a decent case to put for either Prior or Yardy? Michael Vaughan should never have gone, his fitness wasn't proven, and he did not have enough time in the middle. The usual incompetent mess by crickets equivalent of Will Carling's 57 varieties!Change is required and do not even consider Flintoff for the captaincy, his tactical acumen was lacking against Sri Lanka last year, Strauss perhaps?
Complain about this postI agree with most of what you say, Aggers, but why do you think Collingwood has no realistic hope of leading the Test team? Collingwood is one of the few real thinkers in the team and he always tries to raise everyone's game with his exemplary work in the field. He is also a genuine all rounder. I believe his captaincy should be for Tests as well as one-day matches.
Complain about this postSeems simple to me-perhaps too simple ? Look at the England football team-not a glowing endorsement of what I propose I know!-last seasons best club teams had all of their English players chosen for the National squad.
Complain about this postIn cricket,Sussex won the double and did well in the other competitions but Prior,Yardy,Kirtley etc were all ignored in favour of the media darlings. The second best team-Lancashire-were also poorly represented,where was Mal Loye ?In short the England cricket team is too much of a clique and media darlings always get chosen ahead of the more suitable palyers.How else do you explain Saj Mahmood ???
I agree with Jonathan Agnew that Paul Collingwood should replace Vaughan as one day captain. I think Vaughan should return to playing 4 day cricket for yorkshire and learn how to bat again, he has been out the game for a long time. As always the defiance and excuses come pouring out the England camp but the facts are that the one day game is in a seriosuly poor state and someone must pay the price by losing there job. We need to address the issue of the openers as well, Bell and Vaughan were never going to get us off to a flyer. I said from the start that Mal Loye and Matt Prior would be a great opening parntership and the sooner we can get Marcus Trescothik back into the one day side the better!
Complain about this postI agree with the need for a major change in 1-day cricket in terms of management, captaincy and selection policy.
I can't see why anyone successful would want/need the hassle that goes with the job. People say it is the biggest job in World cricket. Really? Our media will triumph the "new dawn" for English cricket and then wade in with both barrels when results suffer.
The new manager and squad should be offered a huge performance-related pay deals. Make them earn the right to swan about like prima donnas. "Take the positives" and nice cosy chats with consultants and therapists is all well and good but cannot disguise poor technique.
Ultimately we have to look at the domestic cricket structure. It's soft. We breed "steady Eddie" bowler types with limited variation and batsmen capable of scoring 200 against students but cannot deliver consistent runs against quality bowlers.
The lack of fight and visible aggression towards the oppo has been disappointing. We rock up, say a few nice things about it is going to be a tough game. Cliche after cliche.
Nixon has shown that having a backbone and a bit of attitude can compensate for limitations in shots. We should be more like Rottweilers not pampered pooches. Show some teeth, get out there and scrap. Take the South African side. Arguably not the most skilful but they make the most of what they have got. Typified by Graeme Smith - in your face arrogance, he leads from the front and backs his team mates.
Vaughan is not a 1-day player. He's a good technical Test batsman but has been brought up in the "old school" mould of being too respectful in 1-day cricket. With more attacking flair, England could unsettle most of the bowling attacks. There are some good players around but we seem to struggle to nurture them through the system. We blood them too early and then cast them aside for years until we burnt out others.
I despair at the prospect of "more of the same". There'll be a review commissioned of learning the lessons etc. But ultimately the ECB will duck the tough decisions/actions required to shake-up the game just like they always do. I would suggest that you get a room of people together and several beers to develop the blueprint for success. The party list should include: Botham, Warne, Boycott, Alan Border, Steve Waugh, Gower, Gooch, Lillee and Holding. There would be a few fights but would at least consider a range of options with a bit of energy and imagination!
Complain about this postIt surely is a basic coaching tactic that you watch and integrate the "best bits" from other teams into your own tactics - obviously discarding the "bad bits" - whilst building on your own strong points / natural abililities. We fail to do even this - opening the batting as though we are playing a Test Match!!!!
It is also unfortunate that it has taken this World Cup to truly bring home the lack of pride shown by the majority of those players that wear the England shirt. We should have all seen this coming.
Following this point, I would agree with the previous comments of Charlie Bronze when he states that we need a "hard man" in charge - someone who would simply not accept the inept performances and lack of pride from our current England players and management.
As a true patriots who support every England Team, we all obviously go through the ups and downs. This is, however, the first time I have resorted to commenting. I cannot see how Fletcher and Vaughan can defend the World Cup debacle which, to say the very least, is humiliating.
Complain about this postHow I could seriously have believed when I settled down to watch the opening overs yeseterday that I was going to somehow witness the re-energising of English one day cricket, is beyond me now.
Complain about this postFrom a state of semi excitement, I was reduced to screaming at the screen in frustration as ball after ball was allowed to pass harmlessly outside the off-stump. Why was Bell opening instead of Strauss? Strauss may not have approached it too differently, but at least a right hand, left hand pairing would have forced the South African bowlers to alter their line. The "well bowled sir.." approach does not work any more and we had no-one to take the initative. Whatever happened to Ali Brown?
Couldn't agree more Aggers. Vaughan is not and never was a one day player. I seem to remember when Sri Lanka won the trophy the aggressive shot makers at the top of the innings seemed to sound the death knell for dead bat Test openers in the one day game. Everyone cottoned on except England.
Complain about this postThis has been going on for years!!!. When are we going to wake up? Also, Mahmood should not be selected again unless he significantly improves....
Looking at a way forward my ODI squad for the summer would be somewhere along the lines of:
Strauss (capt, who else is there?), Benning, Loye, Benham, Trescothick (if fit), Shah, Cook, Pietersen, Collingwood, Bopara, Yardy, Nixon, Prior, Plunkett, Flintoff, Broad, Anderson, S Jones (if fit), Tremlett, T Smith, Panesar.
With a possible team of:
Trescothick/Cook
Benning
Strauss/Shah (if Strauss isn't captain)
KP
Collingwood
Yardy/Bopara (depending on conditions)
Prior
Flintoff
Broad
Tremlett
Jones/Anderson
Our main problem seems to be the lack of a top 3/4 batsman who can also captain effectively or keep wicket. Having said that, whenever Strauss is captain he seems to play like a man possessed.
Complain about this posttotally agree aggers
enough is enough, ..sorry vaughn, but its time to go
must get some youngsters in now,like broad,prior and cook.
ODI team(in batting order)
strauss
Complain about this postcook
pieterson
bell
bopara
prior
flintoff
dalrymple
plunkett
broad
anderson
I disagree with Jonathon Agnew over Fletcher. It is his inability to accept the possibility that he has made a mistake that has lead to this crisis. Players like Read and Batty have been reminded of there weaknesses so often that they have lost their self belief.
His decision to give Flintoff the captaincy and play Jones probably cost us the first two ashes games and, judging from the results since, that has destroyed the squads confidence.
Rather than being allowed to resign at the end of the summer he should be required to step down NOW. Even if this means the ECB making a temporary appointment for this summer.
Complain about this postGood article - we do need a change. But I particularly like you thoughts on playing less cricket.
I used to work a lot away from home for long periods and it sucks. The team must be allowed longer to recharge, especially after heavy defeats.
That means the supporters (i.e., us) need to be more patient and the cricketing authorities need to be less greedy.
Complain about this postThis winter the ECB & the England cricket team had a chance to promote the future of cricket in this country by their Ashes & CWC performances. Aided by a poorly run CWC they have failed the fans of today and tomorrow.
Complain about this postEngland Cricket Team ,Just like the England Football Team , No Pride , No Passion , No new ideas !!!! run by committee !! ,Out of Form players selected , New young players such as Monty Panesar and Mahmood etc made to feel outsiders and ruining their natural talent , Flintoff treated like a ' naughty schoolboy'!! also ruining his natural game !!!
Complain about this postDitch the 'Stiff Shirt ' committee and selecters and the outmoded unchanging Coach !!! ,Select in form players and encourage and nurture the young players in the current team , Give Michael Vaughn free reign to use his shrewd natural captaincy talents , Let Flintoff do things his own way , and above all get right up to date with the way the modern game has changed!!! Address these basic issues and get the Pride and the Passion back into the Team and maybe just maybe English Cricket would be back in the Top Flight !!!!!!!!
I remember listening to an interview a couple of weeks back from a certain Mr Agnew, where he was saying that the likes of Bangladesh and Ireland had no right being in the Super 8,s Well Mr Agnew, at least both teams beat one of the so called super powers to get there, who have England beaten in the whole competition..? I would argue that both Ireland and Bangladesh had a greater right to be there than England, and both gave the likes of South Africa a much sterner test than England.
Complain about this postI think its about time the central contracts were reviewed. It seems to me that for many of the players the security they offer is an excuse for complacency.
I also think that England need to have a specialist one day coach as well as a Test coach.
Complain about this postIan Botham. Now there's a man who would scare the s... out of the ECB and the players and instill the winning mentality we sadly lack.
What a shower - that's what we didn't get enough of to save us the emmbarrasment!
Complain about this postSo predictable ! We knew before the World Cup started that this was the wrong set of players led by the wrong captain and the wrong coach.It now remains to be seen whether Lords will do the only sensible thing and get rid of Fletcher.The one glaring testomony of Fletcher is the selection of Saj Mahmood.His economy rate is over 6 runs per over which is awful and yet he still continues to pick him.He is not even a good county player.We have 4 years in which to develop a squad of players led by a coach who understands the requirements of one day cricket .Its not rocket science and we do have the players to develop into good one day internationals.All that is required is the right man to lead the revolution.
Complain about this postJon, over the years I have defended the side through thick and thin. Yesterday though, I was just embarassed. Somehow I think that I'll be listening to county cricket this summer, rather than TMS. At least then I can listen as a neutral and enjoy the cricket.
Complain about this postToo many players still living off that series win against the Aussies. What has Flintoff done since then to deserve his place?
Too many players plucked from obscurity on a whim (Bopara, Dalrymple) that had never been thought of for England.
A complete bias against Surrey players. Why has Jon Batty never been picked? An excellent keeper and top batsman. Should have had Benning and Brown opening the batting - they'd have battered the opposition and tried to get 100 or got out trying. At least it wouldn't have been so dull. Has anyone ever explained the theory of one day cricket to Vaughan? Shrewd tactician my a*** !!
Complain about this postdoes anybody agree with my team
benning
prior (wk)
pietersen
shah
collingwood
flintoff
bopara
gidman (capt)
tremlett
panasar
anderson
these boys must be given amount of time to prove them selfs and not to be thrown of the team after a few games
Complain about this postIf these players are as good as they keep making out, give them the 'incentive' of cutting their basic salary (which is too high) and if they win a game, they get a (substantial?) win-bonus. Then they really do have something to play for, as it seems personal and national pride seem to be insufficient motivation. This could apply to all of our national sportspeople who are under-achieving.
Complain about this postMy Team Would Be :
Trescothick
Strauss
Pieterson
Collingwood
Flintoff
Bopara
Foster
Mascheranhas
Anderson
Panesar
Broad
Young And Experienced
Strauss And Tresser Are Our Best opening partnership
strong middle order
good wicket keeper batsman
consistent bowlers
good spinner
end of story
Complain about this postEngland has many good players in the squad and some relatively new members. However, being part of a failing team imposes additional stress on players and trainers alike. As the rest of the cricketing world ups the ante, and the one day game evolves, it is now totally clear that England has got it wrong in all respects.
The harsh reality is that the entire squad of players and staff should be replaced with new faces. A clean start may take time to show results, but in the meantime they could not be worse than the embarrasments currently suffered by a loyal public.
Give fresh blood a chance.
Complain about this postEngland were thoroughly outplayed and need to look into the mirror very carefully. I do not think
Complain about this postthat Vaughan can justifiably be a member of the one day side now purely on his "nous" as captain. Given that Pietersen cannot seem to get rid of his hit and miss methods, what about asking him to open and throw his bat around when the field restrictions are in place? What about moving Bopara to 4 instead of the lower middle order? Bring back Harmison and Hoggard into the one day attack and also blood young Adil Rashid. How about Greg Chappell as the coach(do I hear the traditionalists spluttering into their drinks)?
It says something of the CWC structure when a team that has played so poorly at imes, and indifferently at best, were still in with a sniff of making the semi-finals.
While the press, the media - and the England team themselves - were making big their victory in the CB Trophy ( a tournament during which they lost, I believe, 6 matches ? ) anyone with one foot still rooted in reality could see that they were ill-equipped to win the World Cup.
But never let it be said that the evidence should ever get in the way of the hype.
Thankfully, they've not only exited the WC, they've done so without winning one match against a major test playing nation.
Complain about this postThe utter defeat in the final match against SA should send a timely reminder to all involved that much improvement is urgently required, and it isn't enough to simply paper over the cracks.
Well said Aggers.
Complain about this postThat "perfomance" was disgraceful. The only thing worse was the arrogance of Vaughn to not apologise in the post match interview. All I wanted to hear him say was sorry. Not we could have done better, that has been obvious all winter. Just sorry.
I am dissapointed with the way england have repeatadly failed to be aggressive and not fulfill its potential. We need a new captain either colly or bopara.Ravi could be our answer to g.smith.
I thought we could prove the critics wrong and reach the semis.I think time has run out for some of the players. Either that or they need to toughen up.
Complain about this postEnglands TEST side MAY 17TH vs W.INDIES
1. TRESCOTHICK
2. COOK
3. BELL
4. PIETERSEN
5. COLLINGWOOD (c)
6. BOPARA
7. NIXON?
8. S. JONES
9. HARMISON/ANDERSON?
10. HOGGARD
11. PANESAR
12th Man. PLUNKETT or S.BROAD
Drop: THE RUBBISH PLAYERS
1. FLINTOFF
2. VAUGHAN
3. MAHMOOD
4. STRAUSS
5. NIXON AT SOME POINT THIS YEAR?
BRING BACK?:
O.SHAH
M.RAMPRAKASH
DONT CONSIDER!:
Complain about this postGILES
G.JONES
C.READ
It's obvious that a change of management is required and that (as mentioned in earlier posts) someone with balls to steer the team in the right direction is needed.
Unfortunately I can't see the people at the ECB being brave enough to bring in somebody like Botham. It's exactly the same as the English FA when they were too scared to appoint Clough.
If they continue with the current set up England will only, I fear, go backwards. This can NOT be allowed to happen.
Complain about this postI remember before the tournament posting on this site and arguing with a guy about Trescothick. I was saying what a huge loss he was. And we needed to try and find someone to fill the void he left in the dynamic of the team.
This guy disagreed saying Strauss has as good an average as Tres and could cover him. And he said Strauss makes more 100s.
But I knew Tres is a proper one day opener, capable of seizing the initiative in the one dayers like Graeme Smith did yesterday.
Strauss is a good player and I think should be in the team ahead of Vaughan. But he is more a traditional batsman and we have too many of those in the team that played against SA.
And yes proportinally Tres might not get as many 100s as others but he is great at making a great start to the innings a quick 50 or 60 that puts England on the front foot and un-nerves the bowlers, and then means Freddie and KP can come in with licence with 15 overs with a score on the board already and to go and really push us forward.
Too often Freddie and KP are coming in with a negative situation and they are caught
between attack and defence.
I think England's top 6 should have 3 attacking batsman with licence to nearly always attack and 3 traditional crease occupying ones that are also capable of pushing the score on (like Kallis, he can do both jobs) when needed.
At the moment the top order are nervous, and worry about the lower order collapsing - and the lower order are ineheriting poor starts. The batting needs to be more positive and deeper.
Bopara needs to be encouraged to work on and improving bowling, and Bell / Colly too, and even KP on bowling. Plunkett work
on his batting as he has a chance. This will make bowlng and batting deeper. No more Mahmood.
Tres
Complain about this postStrauss
Bell
KP
Colly
Freddie
Bopara
Nixon (or decent younger replacement that can offer his positivity)
Plunkett
Broad (or Monty depends on game)
Anderson
It is time we brought in a decent OD captain and dithced the arrogant Pietersen, who lives off the reputation of a few good innings, but usually holes out because he can't be bothered to build an innings. It can be no coincidence that we won our last ODI series without pietersen in the team! Flintoff is also living off his reputation, an needs to be dropped to give him one huge kick up the backside! Our side for the next ODI series needs to be:
Trescothick
Complain about this postJefferson
Strauss
Lumb
Collingwood (c)
Bell
Foster
Blackwell
Bresnan
Plunkett
Tremlett
whole set up needs to be changed, counties as usual are to blame for not producing enough english cricketers, why do we have so many foreigners in our sides , hampshire have warne and clark aswell as a host of other australians and south africans, where is the incentive for a young hants bowler to get in to the team ! surrey have players like butcher and ramps although playing well what good are they doing for the national team ? we need a level above the counties (regional)where only english players compete in an intense 1 day and 4 day tournament so they get used to competion and a level above the mediocrity of county
Complain about this postWell to be honest i don't know where to start. Everything JA said is spot on, England were extremely poor, shocking, an embarissment and really to sum it all up, a joke!!
These guys are suppose to be professional sports men who do this for a living, but all they do is buckle under pressure and let other teams walk all over them. they don't want to stand up and be counted. If i did what they have done in this World Cup basically not perform in my job, then i would be sacked and im sure a lot of other people would be too.
Vaughan, Joyce, Bell, Mahmood, Flintoff (Bat Only) have all under performed. and should be axed apart from Flintoff for his bowling. Why they persistently pick Mahmood is beyond me, you don see AUS, NZ, SA or any other test playing nation's opening bowler go for 28 runs of their first 2 overs. Most of then don't even go for that in 10 overs.
The Future needs to bring in radical changes. I hope that Simon Jones can stay fit and be picked for both One Day Internationals and Test Cricket as i think he is one player that is drastically missed. The One Day Team needs to have a good shake up and the management need to start picking players who are on form and performing. they need to get rid of the attitude of picking the same team that won us the Ashes, because as it has already proven, that doesn't work!!
Complain about this postWhat a sad world cup for all sorts of reasons.
Nothing really mattered after Bob Woolmers tragic demise. I wish we could turn back the clock and start the whole tournament again with Bob in place.
The England team is amateurish and shows a lack of discipline.
We need discipline at every level - in:
the selection system
tour planning
preparation
playing ODIs and tests
free-time management
The 'laddish' element in the team needs to be weeded out and removed forever. Vaughan is not tough enough to keep his players in check, so he has to be replaced by someone who will wield the stick. I like Vaughan and it's a pity he cannot contiune as ODI captain, it's not his fault, it's the players who are more or less unmanagable, particularly characters like Flintoff who seem to think that the object of the game is to be covered in sweat and die fighting. Its more cerebral than that.
I would give Flintoff one more game to prove himself as a test bowler, bat him at number 7, (or 11 if he has to face decent spin bowlers) make Cook the test captain, and sadly leave out Strauss, Vaughan, Mahmood, Nixon and Anderson. Bring back Hoggard, give Broad a fling, and tell everyone if they give less than 100% concentration and discipline, they will be dropped. I think Dalrymple will be a fine test player if he is given the chance to show what hes made of.
We need people in the team who are passionate about cricket, who think about the game and prepare for it as top-class professionals, not those who are passionate about being celebrities. If I wanted to follow celebrities I would buy a gossip magazine.
Complain about this postDefinitely a more aggressive approach needed. What is with the defensive playing all the time?? That's no way to play, look at the likes of Symonds (Aus) and Smith (SA) smashing the ball, and winning, yes, winning!!
Time for a change of captain and coach.
Complain about this postI hate to say it. but at the moment we need an Aussie coach. We should ask Steve Waugh or Shane Warne to name their price.
Complain about this postEngland cricket has been obliterated in the space of 6 months.
Lost the Ashes 5-0 and thrashed out of the World Cup.
Fletcher must go and separate coaches must be installed for the two versions of the game.
Selection policy must be looked at as well. After the Geraint Jones/Panesar debacle in test selection and the immense amount of sub-standard players that appear briefly in the one day team.
The most important thing is that the County setup has to be changed. Too many players are coming through to the national team without the skills to perform at the highest level. England is a finishing school not an academy.
We have gone backwards since the 2005 Ashes victory and something needs to happen.
We need to look at the system and not make idiotic judgements about players (see KP comments below).
Complain about this postI totally agree. I watched the England innings on TV last night and was so depressed I turned off after watching five mins of the England bowling attack!
I say Vaughan to go now, Fletcher too.
I don't understand why we can't have practically the same team for the One dayers as tests - most other teams too - their players must be better players if they can adapt to 50 over games!
I hope in the last game Broad gets a game, he may as well show what he can do and I'd like to see him in the test team over the summer. If he's as good as his potential, he'll get through it.
The Aussies stuck with Tait even when he was bowling erratically for nigh on six an over. Nuff said.
Depressing day for English cricket - those heady days of Summer 05 have all but gone from memory!
Complain about this postwill everyone stop moaning about arrogance, whilst at the same time demanding character?
England were poor, but the thing the country musn't do is demand wholesale changes every 5 minutes, that's what's been happening over the last couple of years.
Look at it from a different perspective. How much one day county cricket do the england team play? They only know the test game. Graeme Smith played half a season with Somerset, and look where his one day form has taken him. I'm not saying it's solely responsible, but no-pressure games give you the oppertunity to find more industrious shots, and playing it regularly as opposed to hitting in the nets is far more valuable experience
So the solution is to get England's players to play more one day county cricket? Problem with that is the schedule. England are due to play in one month's time. Where is there room for ODI improvement?
Complain about this postI vote for Dav whatmore to be the next coach
Complain about this postAggers is quite correct. We over achieved when winning the Ashes against a team without their best bowler and thought we were the cat's whiskers.
Complain about this postWe have been dismal ever since
We have all witnessed and agreed with popular comment on the state of the English one-day (and indeed the test) game as it stands.
My biggest concern is for the younger players on the team. How do they come back from the enormous dent to confidence that this world cup has delivered?
There is a lot of recovery to be done in this respect and I for one would emplore the ECB to put together a detailed summer training plan based around building confidence and revising the structure of England's attack and batting.
We need to be creative, we need to promote young talent, and above all we need to be playing an entertaining level.
There are some wily old ex-cricketers out there who have been commentating on England this past year or two with panash and inventiveness. Is it now time to give one of them the chance to instill something special in a younger team?
Complain about this postFor starters if the English team wish to progress, the bizarre decision of Harmison not to play in the one-dayers should be taken out of his hands. If you are selected, you play. What kind of a bloody attitude is that for an international cricketer?!? Becoming a proper one day team should also help in being ruthless in Test series.........how to clinically win and all that.
Complain about this postAs Roger Waters said at his Melbourne concert, "Thank you Australia for letting us win the CB Cup, I'm sure normality will now resume".
Complain about this postFalse dawws give me the irrits, lets get real sack the obvious and reign in FIGJAM or we will despise him a la Tendulkar now and Tendulkar HE IS NOT !!
Totally agree with what Aggers says, especially about installing Collingwood as captain. Mahmood not worth his place either- too expensive; where was Plunkett and why was he not used? Let's play Stuart Broad in the now meaningless match against the West Indies to give him some more international experience.
Complain about this postVaughn should have been dropped earlier, but oh, of course, he's capatain. he always plays regardless of form. ridiculous.
he should do the honourable thing and resign now as one day captain. however, it looks like he'll have to be sacked.
Complain about this postThe pointing the finger at KP is absolutely bizarre. One player has really performed for England and he's the one to blame? Pathetic. I'd have thought perhaps the ones who did sod all with the bat were perhaps more of a problem.
Complain about this postA very good, objective summary. I was always concerned that perspective was lost after the ashes victory. Open-topped buses should be saved for winning World Cups.
Fletcher has probably done more for English Cricket than anyone for a long time but has now exhausted what he has to offer. He is becoming increasingly defensive and his tactics increasingly cautious. Time for some freshening up.
Michael Vaughan is a splendid captain but perhaps one-day cricket is not his game - at least, not as an opener. One would think that a man with his talent and range of shots should be able to prosper but his record is dismal.
Much as I admire Saj Mahmood as an athlete, he needs to go back to Lancashire and learn the game. James Anderson can be effective but needs the ball to swing and if swing was going to be a force then Hoggard is surely our finest exponent.
Andrew Flintoff needs a rest. Ed Joyce has promise but suspect technique early on. Ian Bell, Ravi Bopara and Monty Panesar are definite plus points. Collingwood and Pieterson are the best we have and Paul Nixon was superb - shame he's 36. He had the right attitude with gloves and bat and did little wrong with either.
Complain about this postDarren Gough anyone? A great one day bowler overlooked and this has cost us when it really matters. Saj was way out of his depth and Jimmy and Gough together would have given us a better chance when it really mattered. Although with the best bowlers in the world we'd still lose with our batting line-up. Leaving Strauss out from the start was a mistake, bringing Vaughn in when not fit another one. Flintoff has let himself and everyone else down since the ashes win and seems to be carrying on like a celebrity rather than a professional cricketer. KP and Colly performed, and some gutsy rear end work from Nixon and Bopra possibly the small ray of sunshine form this world cup.
Complain about this postTime for change and soon
I remember before the tournament posting on this site and arguing with a guy about Trescothick. I was saying what a huge loss he was. And we needed to try and find someone to fill the void he left in the dynamic of the team.
This guy disagreed saying Strauss has as good an average as Tres and could cover him. And he said Strauss makes more 100s.
But I knew Tres is a proper one day opener, capable of seizing the initiative in the one dayers like Graeme Smith did yesterday.
Strauss is a good player and I think should be in the team ahead of Vaughan. But he is more a traditional batsman and we have too many of those in the team that played against SA.
And yes proportinally Tres might not get as many 100s as others but he is great at making a great start to the innings a quick 50 or 60 that puts England on the front foot and un-nerves the bowlers, and then means Freddie and KP can come in with licence with 15 overs with a score on the board already and to go and really push us forward.
Too often Freddie and KP are coming in with a negative situation and they are caught
between attack and defence.
I think England's top 6 should have 3 attacking batsman with licence to nearly always attack and 3 traditional crease occupying ones that are also capable of pushing the score on (like Kallis, he can do both jobs) when needed.
At the moment the top order are nervous, and worry about the lower order collapsing - and the lower order are ineheriting poor starts. The batting needs to be more positive and deeper.
Bopara needs to be encouraged to work on and improving bowling, and Bell / Colly too, and even KP on bowling. Plunkett work
on his batting as he has a chance. This will make bowlng and batting deeper. No more Mahmood.
Tres
Complain about this postStrauss
Bell
KP
Colly
Freddie
Bopara
Nixon (or decent younger replacement that can offer his positivity)
Plunkett
Broad (or Monty depends on game)
Anderson
Aggers is spot on, but its not just the captain and the coach who have to go, the whole team needs a complete overhaul. Who from the team is good to compete at international level ? Very few i would say. KP, Collingwood, Bopara at 6, Freddie in the difficult no.8 position (his batting is woeful at present, but a good option at 8). All the other team places are up for grabs and we have to look at the county players in the next few months and identify who are the best one day players capable of playing against the Aussies, S.A. etc and then pick them and develop them. The one day team and the test team have to treated as seperate entities; the one day game has changed so much. We have to take difficult decisions to take the team forward
Complain about this postCome on Aggers, Collingwood for captain, are you sure? What about Strauss? What about anyone else?
Complain about this postI agree - it's not the defeat itself that is so worrying as the manner of it!
Complain about this postthe comments of ex players and captains are always valuable, but the words of people like botham and willis i would not listened to as they are as negative as are tactics. one day cricket has moved up a step and we haven't. if we are to catch up the world we need ideas and new thoughts not just a witch hunt. the past is the past and we need to move on quickly.
Complain about this postEngland need a Captain good enough at TEST and ONE DAY - NOT TWO captains!
Complain about this postEmbarrassing but inevitable.
Too many games, too much media scrutiny, too much money (from outside the game).
England CC going same way as England FC.
Lets take a long look at the domestic structure - I think Barry Richards suggested reducing the counties down and reducing the domestic fixtures. English cricket has always been targeted at the longer game - should that change?
Having said all that - we won the Ashes against the best side in the world (ever?) - what did we do then, that we're not doing now?
And.........
The players were knackered (physically and mentally), that's why they needed a few beers - we all do.
Enjoyed the commentary Aggers (as always) - Murdoch's getting none of my money !!
Complain about this postEng 7-0 after 6 overs, SA 54-0 after 6 overs! And we won the toss. Vaughan will not resign!! Baffling. How arrogant and hope he gets sacked. he should never have waltzed into the team with no form when he was in Australia. We actually won the prestigious one day tournament with NZ and Aus as opposition without PATHETIC Vaughan. Also, he was responsibling for undermining Flintoff's authority by getting him sacked as vice captain. Mahmood also has to go. Plunkett should have played instead of him and he has a batting average of 26 in ODIS with a very respectable strike rate in the eighties!
Vaughan you have been a disgrace. you also should not walk into the test team until you have scored enough runs in county cricket.
Complain about this postMy views as to the way forward for the one day game - please pass it on to Fletch and Gravy!!!
========================
thing is, why did we expect to do well in the one day games, we are not ranked 7th or 8th in the world cos we are good. We overachieved to come 5th!
Think we need a plan to the next world cup now. Obviously it is held in the Sub - c, so you need to tailor your play to that. Therefore we need to find a second spinner / allrounder spinner as back up to Monty and groom him now. Adil Rashid is the obvious choice as someone who bats well and has promising leg spin. You need to look for youngsters who will still be around then. Skipper - will Collingwood still be around then? If so, you may as well go with him or Alistair Cook imho.
Batting wise, well its batsmen whose game can be suited for the sub c conditions. You need to mould that team by sending them on the sort of 2 week tri series events that the sub -- c teams excel in to give them experience. Look to go to India during the latter county season. However we wont cos the players are 'tired'. We need to play 2 or 3 mini series outside of the ICC FTP a year over the next 4 years to gain the experience. It will help the test side too
Stop tacking one day series on as an afterthought to the test series. Make them relevant. We have split the lankan winter series down into two chunks - which is a start, but we should also be looking to playing one day series in Dubai against the likes of India and Pakistan. It will help build stronger relations with those countries - and they will be very happy to have the extra games. If we dont build for the next world cup now, we will be in exactly the same boat in 4 years time.
I have no problems with our test side - it needs a little freshening up but fundamentally it is the 2nd best side in the world.
Complain about this postAbsolutely gutted ! What an abysmal performance from start to express finish. How can a group of talented cricketers play so badly and be so consistently inept at 1 day cricket ? What an embarrassing comparison during yesterday's debacle, after 9 overs England had scored 8 runs, South Africa 68. Sri Lanka set the standard in 1996, playing attacking, positive cricket during the fielding restrictions. Other top teams have embraced the same type of play and been successful, but England have remained firmly rooted in the past and paid for their lack of adventure with early, embarrassing exits in the last 3 world cups and now this one. Compare Pollock bowling maiden after maiden yesterday with the brutal contempt, Hayden showed for him during the group match, where he was despatched to to all parts of the ground. Just not good enough.
Complain about this postHow anybody can slag Kevin Pietersen off is beyond me. His average speaks for itself in 1 day cricket and in test match. The fact of the matter is how many of Englands other players have made consistent 50s and 100s in the tournament. People what blame Kevin Pietersen for England not doing well need to have a good long hard luck at following another sport. The fact of the matter is Kevin Pietersen gets out look at what scores we get. Pietersen was forced to stay in against Australia if he had got out early we would have been embarrassed there to. We need a new coach and a new captain for the 1 day squad. The central contracts have to go there a joke the players what are in England team dont get enough practice in 1 day games there covered in cotton wool. Oh and for god sakes pick players what can open in 1 day cricket has anybody in the England selection policy watched Darren Maddy over the last year. Put loye and maddy opening and get slogging off to a good start. It disappoints me cos the players are there. Lets get rid of Fletcher and Vaughan and look to the future.
Come on England.
Complain about this postEngland must adopt a new approach to batting in ODI. Scoring 10 runs in ten overs may be OK for a five day test but disastrous for ODIs. Fletchter has reached his sell by date, Vaughan should concentrate on five day tests and forget ODIs. The coach and managent should let people like Fintoff, and Pieterson play their natural game and not go against their instincts to adapt to a certain style which may be risky at times but may be the only way to score quickly. Bowlers must be taught to bowl more yorkers. Mahmood has the potential and his slow delivery should be modified as this has not taken any wicket. He has to work hard on his length and direction and learn to bowl good yorkers like Malinga or Mcgrath.
Complain about this postWhen Duncan Fletcher took charge of the England cricket team he pulled them back from the brink.
The problem with Mr Fletcher and the other people responsible for the England team is that it takes them too long to see the obvious.
In my humble opinion the first name on the team sheet should be Paul Collingwood. He is, it seems the only player with iron in his heart, and that is where selection should begin.
We have two very good ''classical'' county batsman opening in one day games. Why is that?
Pietersen has said that he doesn't want to bat for more than about twelve overs which means he plays for Pietersen. So if you have to pick him send him in first up. No player is above ENGLAND
Why isn't Englands best bowler (Hoggard) playing for England, surely Anderson or mahmood isn't better.
For a few years now I have been watching the disintegration of English football and cricket, most of us spectators know why. As I said earlier the people in charge cannot or will not see the obvious or have been told not to.
Complain about this postBest wishes for the future
Fortunately for me I deliberately didnt follow yesterdays fiasco. It was a disater waiting to happen and ruthless changes are now needed including a replacement of captain and coach. I think the majority of people would come to that conclusion and yes there are plenty of alternatives .Lets get some real pride back into the england one squad.
Complain about this postEngland's biggest problem (and has been for years) is they turn their noses up at 'specialist' one day players and stick by the test team.
We need a big hitting aggressive batsman at the top of the order in the style of a Hayden or Jayasuriya. We tried this with Mal Loye and should have stuck with it. A younger more dynamic player would be a better choice for the future. Mal Loye is a fantastic county batsman but is a bit one dimensional and was easily found out at international level.
Flintoff should be played as a bowler and use his big hitting batting when the game suits. South Africa have done this with Andrew HAll in the past and used to do it with Lance Klusner.
If they gave Flintoff license then a quick fire 20 or 30 could put the opposition on the back foot. Expecting him to come in at six and build an innings is laughable. Nixon would be another candidate for this role. If a wicket goes down inside the first 6-8 overs throw one of these players in to boost the run rate. Pieterson can then go in at the fall of the next wicket whichwould suit his game a lot more.
Finally we need to work with Plunkett and Broad so their bowling is hard to get away. The main strike bowlers for SA and Aussies are very economical which means batsmen then try and get after the lesser bowlers (leading to mistakes).
Positives from this world cup are Bopara, Nixon, Panesar and Pietersons batting (at times).
Complain about this postAny real supporter faced with watching England over the past few years realises that once the original euphoria of the Ashes win against Australia had worn off the win has proved a major burden to carry instead of providing the spring board for future greatness as it clearly shoud have been.
England became lethargic and in hindsight many wrong paths where followed. Instead of increasing the intensity Engalnd relaxed in to a media fuelled haze of compliments and they became soft touches.Instead of questioning the way forward England just looked back and expected things to happen just because they did against Australia. England kept faith in the injured Ashes winners to the detriment and development of the team. Injured players where picked ahead of form players because of management sentimentality and the opportunity to introduce younger players in to a winning environment was overlooked.
To much emphasis was placed on the charisma of Freddie Flintoff and whilst Fred is undoubtably a valuable player his consistancy as a batsman has left him. So much so that at present he can not be regarded as anything like an 'all rounder' but more of a bowler who can bat a bit, he should be batting further down the order in test matches or as an explosive hitter at the top of the order in the one dayers, until he gets his form back How could we hope to compete in the world cup with an opening partnership of an out of form and crocked Vaughn and Ian Bell, not the fastest accumulator of runs in any form of Cricket
Micheal Vaughn was picked even though he was injured and on form should not be in the team. This in no way takes away what he did in the Ashes but England must break out of this mould of picking players on past glories if they stick to this method of selection Geoff Boycott should be padding up for the next series.
The word 'management' needs to come back in to the way the team is run and that means appointing some one who can make the tough decisions and also have a managerial style that is sound enough to handle the large personalities like Flintoff and Pieterson. How many times do we keep on hearing the players harping on about the fact that everyone is backing each other and the manager has the support of his players and this next game is the must win game. Let's ditch this cliche' ridden self indulgence and start facing the facts that it is not good enough to just talk the talk any more but to quote another well used cliche' we must walk the walk or in other words let's get the collective finger out and start earning the brass that we supporters keep stumping up to watch this over hyped rubbish
Let England take a leaf out of the Aussies book and take a good look at what good players we have and we do have players capable of competing with the best and let them just play cricket and be judged on their performances on the field. The other stuff should be handled by proffessionals who are not afraid of making tough decisions and who get paid so to do.
All any England supporter wants is a team that at least puts up a fighting performance and not one that is stuck in the past and won't admit they are wrong.
Complain about this postChange is deffinately needed but as the test arena differs so much from the 1 day game and different people are suited to different styles would it not make sense in keeping Duncan Flethcher as coach for the test team but have a different coach for the 1 day and 20/20 team?
With this set up the new coach would not have any favourites and with new ideas and opinions would be free to pick a team solely on there 1 day and 20/20 ability.
Complain about this post"We have been dismal ever since [the Ashes]"
Apart from our first Test win in India for 20 odd years and our first home series victory against Pakistan for a similar period.
The last year or so hasn't reached the same heights as some of the rest of Fletcher's reign, but it is far from dismal (and would have constituted a good year in the decade before Fletcher).
Complain about this postWith regards to the Ireland/Bangladesh arguement as to whether they should have appeared in the super 8s - both of those have won at least 1 game against a team expected to reach the super 8 stage. More than "Watching paint dry" England have managed. If things continue the same way in the one day game then I can see England having to qualify for the next world cup as Bangladesh will be ranked above them.
Anyone think England should be sponsored by Dulux?
Complain about this postI agree with Aggers assessment regarding Collingwood taking over as captain. I also think we need to shake up our team and make players fight for their positions. As I see the team right now, only 3 players can 100% justify their inclusion: Pietersen, Collingwood and Flintoff (but only on his bowling performances).
The summer ahead should not be too stressful, with the relatively easy opponents of West Indies so let us hope that the selectors and coaching staff use the opportunity to bring a new ethos to the 1-day team. As far as selection goes, I don't know!
Complain about this postI do not think i have ever seen a more shambolic performance by an England team.
The real worry is that it was not unexpected. Any pundit who has commented in the past 6 months has said that our approach is archaic and naieve. So it was borne out by a display of ineptitude of the highest order. The hierarchy,or should i say Fletcher, have such an arrogance that it defies belief.We approach the 50 over game in "Our Way", this bears no relation to the way the successful teams operate. We have a negative mindset from the start and this only serves to increase pressure on subsequent batters.
Would the other top sides persist with Vanghan
in the line up? I rather think not. I get the impression that the camp is split with a number of senior players disaffected - Flintoff, Strauss,Panesaar.Then there are Fletcher and Vaugghan more and more isolated and entrenched by that isolation.
The infuriating thing is that if we had selected more astutely we may have had more of an impact. There are many players who could have contributed but have been simply ignored.
How can anyone suggest that Mahmood is an international cricketer when he cannot bowl the ball in the same place twice in an over!
In short there have to be changes - we cannot survive with an Autocracy and an under performing captain.
Fletcher - Out
Vaughan - Out
Mahmood - Out
Plunkett - Out
Joyce - Out
Anderson?
Panesaar?
Flintoff in only as a bowler
Trescothick?
Yardy?
Gough?
Lewis?
Ramprakash?
Shah?
Prior?
Blackwell?
Bell - In
Collingwood- In
KP - In
Nixon - In for the time being as he performs with courage and credit
Strauss - In
Broad - In
Simon Jones - In, when fully fit
The point is is that there are options that have been ignored to the immense frustration of the followers of English cricket.
I have just decided not to attend any one day internationals this summer as a result of this debacle. I have been going fo 35 years on and off but will not waste money until changes are made.
Complain about this postAggers - in light of your comments earlier in the tournament to the effect that Ireland and the other associate nations did not merit a place at the WC, what would you say now in light of the fact that Ireland have beaten 2 Test playing nations and tied with another soon to be re-admitted Test playing nation? England meanwhile were frankly made to look no better than an associate nation by the Proteas. Surely a case of chickens coming home to roost!
Complain about this postWhat a shambles.
Why did we change the winning side from the recent one day success in Australia, Why was Matt Loye replaced by the non effective Vaughan(20 balls to get a run), Why was Bell promoted to open. What has Plunkett done to lose his place after some good performances against the Aussies. Why does eveyone else pinch hit and we defend.
Time for a rebuild
Complain about this postEnglish cricket is a joke. The best English batsman is a South African born and bred player. Strauss is South African born, Joyce is Irish. When are the cricketing academies going to generate real talent?
There needs to be vast amounts of resource pumped into developing English cricket and have all the status associated with it.
Maybe when Shane Warne starts playing for England in a few years time will the trend reverse!!
Complain about this postHumiliating. By the second over it was clear we were going to lose. Any muppet knows that you cannot shoulder arms to the first 12 balls and show the right attitude to win an ODI. If Vaughn was that suspicious of the pitch why on earth did he bat first.
Our pampered players only ever play in the rarified atmosphere of the England set up. How often these days do they have to get down and dirty in the grind of the Championship or the County one day comps. The only ones who seemed to have the grinding instincts were those plucked from the county game. Bopara and Nixon.
We have got to have the guts to tell the ICC where to go and reduce the number of England fixtures. We are all getting bored with them. It is nothing special for the players to play for England because it is their full time job.
In most sports playing for your country is a special occasion, not just another day at the office!!
When will we learn that speed is not enough to be a fast bowler. It will get you spectacular results every now and again, but you cannot live on tha you have to be able to reproduce it on a regular basis. Saj cannot do that, neither can Anderson. It is subtle movement and variation that gets batsmen not raw power. Pressure gats wickets, and we do not pick bowlers who can apply pressure.
I could go on all day, but I have work to do!
Complain about this postWhoa: should I post or not? So many reactions, it's bizarre!
I think you're absolutely right in this. The chap(s) blaming KP are wrong, simply because he's the only batsman that goes into ODI's like a world class batsman. How would you defend dropping the No 1 ODI Batsman in the world?
But here's the thing... I think Collie should take over the test side as well! Maybe not now: groom him in the ODI team, but I think he'd be a good successor to Vaughan's throne...
Complain about this postI have a cunning plan, select players on form, rather than reputation. It is not complicated.
Complain about this postGive chances to the young telanters in English cricket, please
Complain about this postI agree with aggers, I think Collingwood would make a superb captian for the one day team, but Strauss should take the captiancy of the test team. I think it was always going to be difficult for England with the team they brought to teh world cup, with only one true world class one day batsman in kp. Leaving out Mal Loye was a big mistake in my opinion, as he may not of been the best batsman but he atleast showed intent in playing strokes at the top of the order, which is more than Vaughan and Joyce did.
Complain about this postThere seems to be something of a boys club mentality in this England side and if you face doesn't fit, woe betide you, qv Andrew Strauss whose treatment has been inexcusable.
Why were players like Shah and Solanki set aside for the World Cup when they are kind of players who can give an innings impetus and drive? Why are bowlers like Hoggard overlooked for one day games? Would Australia leave out McGrath or South Africa leave out Pollock?.
Of course, the old boys will prevail and we will be in this position 4 years hence.
Complain about this postI think that the decision to remove the coach and captain should happen but also the chairman of selectors where is he at this moment in time we have not heard from him so lets start agian from scratch make Botham chairman of selectors he not afraid to tell them at lords to get thier act together is he?
Complain about this postDuncan fletcher should have resigned after the ashes in Australia.
Complain about this postTom Moody would be a good choice as coach. He lives in England. I think we should keep Vaughn as captain, but he should bat at 6 or 7 like Russel Arnold does for Sri Lanka. England should look something like this:
1- Marcus Trescothick
2- James Benning
3- Mark Ramprakash
4- Kevin Pietersen
5- Ian Bell
6- Paul Collingwood
7- Micheal Vaughan (C)
8- Andrew Flintoff
9- Adil Rashid
10- Stuart Broad
11- Sajid Mahmood
Coach - Tom Moody
That team would give you 4 front line bowlers of Mahmood, Broad, Flintoff and Rashid + Collingwood, Vaughan, Pietersen, Bell and Benning and even Trescothick are all capable bowlers to make up the rest. It also bats all the way down to number 11 with the two openers using the powerplays properly. Benning hits it as hard as anybody in the world.
Thoughts?
Complain about this postEngland can not play one day cricket, that is not true we do it all over the country every week, we play limited overs matches also some in the north are played in an evening starting at 18.00. Why can we not get some of the hard nosed coaches from the north of England and let them manage the one day game. We also need some bowlers there is not one quickie that would have got a game in the days of Trueman, Statham, Loader, Snow etc. why can we not breed them like that today, why the game is too soft, too much money comes to the players even when they do not perform, lets get some realistic bonuses for performance and penalties for none performance, then I bet we would win.
Complain about this postSpot on. I have not been so ashamed of an English team since the disastrous showing at the last football World Cup. The tough core seems to have gone from our sportsmen, leaving only steaming piles of self-justification and excusemanship.
Complain about this postAggers, why not have two coaches as well as two captains?
Complain about this postEveryone would agree that the one-day game is fundamentally different to test cricket, so it would make sense to have a coach who specialises in this form of the game, with a separate selection panel, too.
This would help create a totally different mind-set amongst the chosen team and lead to highly focussed preparation and matchplay.
for manager, isn't there some chappie called Woodward available?
Complain about this postThe writing was on the wall during the Test series and that ended badly enough. Now we are further humiliated by another series or defeats and non-performances.
Complain about this postThere was no fire, no commitment, no desire to succeed by anyone and this must be laid at the doorstep of the captain (s), coaches and management of the team (including the selectors).
As in football, players should be made to fight for their place in every match and if off form, they are dropped. There is too much of "it'll be all right on the day", too much forgiveness for poor performances.
Never forget that it is the paying public and fans that keep this game alive so a little respect by the team and the selectors for them would be appreciated in future.
How can Jonathan Agnew say "Collingwood has no realistic hope of leading the Test team", I thought he performed about the best of our batsmen in Australia. Is it that he didn't go to the right school ? or speak with the right accent ? Or play for the right club ? I think that sort of attitude is at the very root of Englands problems.
Complain about this postRe Flintoff - and the joker that reckons Brett Lee was the 2nd best allrounder in the Ashes series.
The figures in the series blow that theory out of the water.
Freddie needs to go back to hitting - he has a good basic technique that needs work against spin.
With a good batting coach eg Graham Gooch or even the man who should have been THE coach years ago - Tom Moody behind him - it should sort him.
As far as his bowling goes, Ian Chappell (who knows a thing or two about quick bowlers having captained some good ones) said in the commonwealth bank series that Flintoff is the best one day bowler in the world.
Also ask Ricky Ponting if he'd rather face England with Flintoff or without - I have and the answer was most definitely without
Complain about this postI agree with what Aggers writes, but I also hope that some degree of endemic problem is identified, otherwise changing coach and captain will have only a short term effect if any at all.
England can play well in the test arena, the dabacle of last winter apart. Poor (no) preparation, psychological and injury problems arising caused that.
England's perenial "worst problem" has been, ever since I started watching cricket in the 1970s, the batting. We have been known as "one out all out" for a long time now. A generation ago, England's middle order were often berated in test or one-day for "getting in then getting out". How many times have we heard Aggers and co use that epiphet?
On the other hand the fielding and bowling, whilst not always being the best has, much more often than the batting, been up there with them. Freddie and Monty for instance cause problems for any batter, no matter how good or in what form. England's bowling and fielding would better England's batting by a mile.
What to do, is of course a difficult issue, but it must not just be heads rolling.
I look at the strong teams in the CWC and their selection and find myself noticing that good test batters often do not make good one-day batters (Aggers cites the Vaughan case as an example). On the other hand, good one-day batters often make good test batters given the chance.
If that is so, and I believe it is, that is something to think about in the development of young talent, as well as all aspects of the management of teams, their training and selection.
Does or could the England and county cricket set-up support this notion?
I wonder.
Complain about this postHa, forgot the keeper in my last team!! :
1- Marcus Trescothick
Complain about this post2- James Benning
3- Mark Ramprakash (C)
4- Kevin Pietersen
5- Ian Bell
6- Jon Batty / Steven Davies (+)
7- Paul Collingwood
8- Andrew Flintoff
9- Adil Rashid
10- Stuart Broad
11- Sajid Mahmood
How about opening OD's with KP and Freddie? Let them get some runs on the board before it is too late.
Complain about this postI refused to destroy my day by watching the televised disaster - Only the those holding the extremities of patriotic fervour could possibly have been prepared to endure such torture
Complain about this posti think before the tournament begain did english commentators (of what ever media) think how far do i think england will go in the world cup and when they limped out in the semis were they surprised no Aggers included
Complain about this postAgnew has written ‘This defeat, and particularly the manner of it, was chastening, devastating, and embarrassing’
Complain about this postOh no it wasn’t! I knew we were crap before we started and this was what we are used to, expected and embarrassingly easy for those arrogant South Africans, disliked as much as the Aussies and almost as much as the French.
This England team needs drastic changes - captain and coach must go.
The debate about Vaughan's poor one-day batting ability is well publicised and thus it is evident that he has kept his place in this team on the back of his tactical prowess as a captain - something which is taken as red. However, is this actually the case? I beleive that Vaughan's innings against South Africa demonstrates his inability to keep up with the evolving tactics of one day cricket. His blatantly foolish content to leave balls on a good line and length allowed the South African bowlers to settle, in what was always going to be a nervous game. The Austrailian and Sri Lankan openers have revolutionized the art of opening an innings - a revolution that most teams have followed - except for England!
Fletcher must follow his captain out of the door. His obdurance and stubborness hindered England's chance of success in the Ashes and has hindered England's one day progress for the past five years. His banal tendency to reward the orthodox has prevented any sense of variation and diversity from entering the team and posing problems for the opposition. One day specialists that have flourished in the county game have frequently been ignored in favour of the technically orthodox players that prosper in the 5 day form of the game. England need to recognise that the two forms are separate and must be treated as such - otherwise English one day cricket will sink further into its self-made cavity of depression and stagnation!
Complain about this postAggers is right, Fletcher must go. Hoggard's remark 'unfortunately we are going through a bad period' is an insult. The public are not that stupid. Life in the bubble has made them lose any perspective of the real world outside.
Complain about this postJonathan Agnew's final sentence that "change is necessary and unavoidable" could have been written the day after we lost 5-nil to Australia in the Ashes. Aggers now, of course, is on solid ground with the second disaster of the World Cup behind us and he can speak freely. Why he hasn't done so before can be put down to the 'old school tie' brigade and a nod and a wink to keep it quiet off pals from the old alma mater.
Now England are fair game to all and sundry - even their pals at TMS can show open disgruntlement since those they will be writing about will soon no longer be in positions of power.
And what about Graveney? His blinkered and lacklustre approach to the job; his "better than thou" attitiude and his overall waving-hand dismissal of anything negative said about either Fletcher or Vaughan. Where are Agger's comments on this issue?
Change is necessary. But to what? More old pals from public schools filling up the positions of authority. Yes, change is necessary and unavoidable, Aggers, and it will happen. Then we can settle back down, dear reader, fooled into thinking that change in itself is enough. But it is not, my friends. It is NOT change that is required it is the entire process and not just changed. It has to be altered into a new structure in every department that would be unidentifiable from its present form.
But, alas, dear reader, it will not. New faces will simply deliver the same old rot, the same tired excuses and the same dreadful performances.
You will not find a boy out there this day destined for cricket super stardom with a determined look on his face as he bowls against a wall on which he has etched in chalk some wickets. Bowling ball after ball, hour after hour making chalk dust as he bowls his imaginary Australian out.
No, he does not exist, in any part of the country,on the streets of Leeds, Manchester, Kent, London, Birmingham. He is simply a figment of our imagination.
Complain about this postIn response to criticising the selection of out of form players we keep hearing the mantra that "form is temporary, class is permanent".
Complain about this postTry telling that to the Aussie selectors!
Ramprakash, who had a MASSIVE domestic season, spent the off-season doing celebrity ball-room dance! Criminal! Whilst Vaughan, who hadn't picked up a bat in earnest for 100 years, was opener!
If Fletcher & Graveney have any HONOUR, they should resign.
I think it is very interesting when you look at the 2 score cards. On the England side not one batsmen scored more than a run a ball. Even Pieterson scored (3 off 16).
Complain about this postOn the Sa side only Kallis scored less than a run a ball and Smith (89 off 58)
This is one Day cricket, whover your coach is, batsmen must bat.
Go Proteas Go!!
I remember an interesting theory espoused by Sir Garfield Sobers - think it was after the 46 all out in Antigua. He said something along the lines of that England would go home, beat the summer Test opposition and kid themselves that everything was OK, when it patently wasn't.
I fear something similar will happen now. For all England's failings - where does one start, but hubris, indiscipline, and incompetence at all levels will do for now - they're a better team than my beloved Windies, and should win that series. Where they go from there is crucial. Long term planning is essential. Here's my suggested start:
Flintoff needs to be told to sober up or get out.
Harmison gets one last chance to show he can be relied on on tour - his shirking and homesickness are plain embarrassing.
Trescothick needs to be told when he is well enough to play, not him telling the selectors.
A WK. Find one, and stick with him.
Graveney sacked.
Complain about this postA complete humiliation.
Complain about this postThe whole selection committee needs clearing out but it will not happen - it never does going right back to the days of dear old Fred Truman who was consistently overlooked when the best fast bowler in England.
Completely agree. It is about time that Fletcher resigned.He's been a great test coach over the years and Vaughan has been a great test captain, and should stay there. But a new one day captain is needed. Worse could be done than Paul Collingwood. Well said Aggers.
Tom Moody for England!
Complain about this postWhat a farce. Can't we just dismiss this bunch of losers and pick the best from a range of high school cricket teams instead? They sure couldn't do worse.
Complain about this postA good captain would have dropped himself given the complete absence of form. Ergo, Vaughan is not a good captain. Let us hope he does so for the one game left that now has no significance.
Complain about this postI'm not sure I'm with you?
Complain about this postUnfortunately players do not turn out good performances from talent alone. We have shown consitently that the team can play good shots and on their day they can turn in a good performance - but at international level you *must* have consistency and that comes from repetition, dedecation and good coaching, which we quite obviously lack.
How often have we made the opposition look good by just playing bad shots? We've been up against the best in the world but that is *no* excuse for playing bad cricket. All truely good teams make sure their opponents work hard for their wickets but our guys just seem to hand them over time after time.
Not sure where the solution will come from but I hope that 'the powers that be' can see something drastic needs to happen. Perhaps they should take as their model the way the Australians went about rebuilding after we (only just) beat them in the previous Ashes series.
Complain about this postEngland's performances in this World Cup have been an embarrassment to English cricket, but not as much of an embarrassment as Vaughan and Fletcher's continual insistence on "taking the positives" from these games.
What positives?
Apart from an almost surreal late surge that almost (undeservedly) won them the game against Sri Lanka England's batting has failed, failed and failed again.
They lack the ability to score quickly at the start of the innings (absolutely vital the way the games is played now) show no interest in taking advantage of the PowerPlays and, even worse, manage to lose wickets at the same time.
The bowlers have looked good in occasional patches (mostly against the minnows) but seem to lack the ability/tactical awareness to create genuine pressure against genuinely world class batsmen.
I have said it before and I will say it again ... this England team (from coach down) appears to have no idea how to play the one day form of the game.
Unfortunately, given their performance in the Ashes series, they don't seem to have much more of an idea how to play the long form at the moment.
A fresh approach is needed in one day cricket. New coach, new captain, new tactics (please!) ... and no place for Vaughan, who is clearly out of his depth in the one day game, but seems unable (or unwilling) to be honest enough with himself or the fans to make that decision for himself.
In test cricket, we need to see how they fare this Summer, with Vaughan back in the saddle, before passing judgement.
However, the first thing Vaughan and Fletcher have to do to regain some credibility here is to stop talking about "positives", be honest and admit that this World Cup campaign has been a shambles ... just like the Ashes.
Complain about this postAggers completely right about the need for change. But I think the change needs to be revolutionary. Fletcher certainly has a done wonders from our test side, but can we take that aspect away from the team, unless we get someone like Buchanan (highly unlikely).
So I suggest we get a One Day Coach, someone like Moody or Bracewell who can do to the One Day side what Fletcher has done to the test side.
We also cannot fall into the same trap of 1996, 1999 and 2003 by saying we will build for the next one and then not do that. Over that period several players have missed an opportunity to get a chance at the national team - Chapple, Loye, Peters, Ben Smith, Jon Batty, Kirtley, Mascaranhas etc. Lets not do the same with Broad, Onions, Davies, and Rashid.
Complain about this postOK, points well made but not to many suggestions on a way forward as far as the one day side is concerned. Think it is time to seperate the one day and test squads with a different coach and captain for each. Fletcher and Vaughan can stay at the helm for test matches but let's identify a group of 18 players who we will stick with through thick and thin for one day cricket over the next 2 years, giving them experience under a young coach and the chance to gel as a team. Bearing this in mind i would go with the following.
Cook
Jefferson
Benning
Shah (capt)
Pietersen
Bopara
Bell
Collingwood
Flintoff
Rashid
Dalrymple
Davies
Foster
Plunkett
Broad
Anderson
Panesar
Tremlett
As far as a coach is concerned, what about a player who is coming towards the end of there playing career, for example Stuart Law or Graham Hick
Complain about this postWell said Aggers!
Complain about this postThe lack of focus and competence to do the cricketing basics that this current squad has dispaled is breathtaking. A minor county or northern league side would have had a better idea of how to play a one day game.
Why have an Ashes winning team suddenly become rubbish? Some of it will be the fact they played out of their skins to win the Ashes, some a result of the hubris that that wonderful success induced, some will down to the punishing schedule of the last winter - however the rest, the majority in fact, is plainly down to poor management and leadership and the way central contracts are run. Players need to do the hard miles and learn their trade in the county game.
Change after the summer is too late, Tom Moody will be available after the World Cup, the ECB should not waste time and get him in for the summer test series to give him a chance to start to make a difference against a sub standard west indies side in favourable english conditions. He then can look to galvanise Freddie and co.
Complain about this postWhat really worries me in the world of cricket (a sport i enjoy tremendously) is the fact that teams like Australia and Sri-Lanka and New-Zealand plays so well and teams like England, West indies and India plays so poorly yet the people in charge of the poor teams cannot seem to learn from the teams on top. Surely it's not a big secret what the teams on top do right come on people every team has the talent it's just that it's not being used correctly.
If e.g. the West Indies players learn from the Sri-Lankans whom i considered to be the third best team in the championship beind Australia and New Zealand that it takes some amount of discipline, training and team spirit then they can be a top class team. At the moment there is none if that in the camp and that's sad for World cricket. I believe that my Brothers local team in Crayford is much fitter than the West Indies team.
Being born in the West Indies and now living in England it's been a really tough time for me in the World cup both team needs changes and very fast.
I do believe that England is the better of the two teams so come on ECB and WICBC learn for the Australians and New Zealanders PLEASE.
Complain about this postThere is complete lack of bottle in this England team. They act as if they are super stars and behave as celebrity which has got excerbated by some of them being handed an OBE after winning one series. Their arrogance has passed on from test to One-Day. On top of that the socalled england superstar, Flintoff's behaviour from the day they won the Ashes to this day is totally unprofessional. Basically they are just second rate and constatntly talk at interviews before the match that must score "Hundreds" and then are not capable of even reaching 50. It is so frustrating and soul breaking to support these bunch of showers both at test and One-day level. England needs to terminate the contracts and revert to the old system of choosing on merit. management is to blame as well as they do not seem to have inculcated in players the discipline and pride. Throw most of them out especially Vaughn and Flintoff as well as the Manager. It could not get worse. bring new blood and new leadership. Someone like Beefy would instil a fighting spirit.
Complain about this postEngland used Ian botham to open in 92 world cup, that is before jaysurya and kaluwithrana started the trend of exploiting the fielding restrictions whcih means that Engalnd had a fair idea as to what needs to be done yet since then i cant remember a single swashbuckling opener that england have produced, trescothick well may be.. but overall its just lame.
Complain about this postthe point i want to make is, its not that England went out because they played bad cricket, they went out because english cricket in general is badly planned cricket.
Before this match we were told our batsmen were showing good form in the nets (against our own excuse for bowlers). This leads me to the conclusion that the only test playing team we could beat (outside Bang - not a true test nation anyway) is England.
Complain about this postAs usual when an England team are knocked out there are the inevitable calls for the coach/managers head. In this case they are probably justified, particularly given Fletcher's questionable selection decisions during the early part of the Ashes campaign.
Complain about this postThat said these players are the products of the system that produces them and quite simply English domestic cricket is not capable of producing hardened international cricketers, too many counties, means too many pro's, means too much mediocrity.
The players are pampered and overpaid and quite simply have no job insecurity to create pressure to perform.
No disrespect but what are players like Hick and Ramprakash still doing earning a living in County cricket and, even more damningly of the state of the competition, scoring runs. Would they be topping the averages in the Pura Cup or South African competition-- of course they wouldn't.
There will be the usual handwringing and bold statements from the EWCB, but until the nettle of the state of the domestic game is grasped nothing will change.
Strength playing strength, as Barry Richards described it, 10 teams, 200 pro's, 90% English qualified. Will the self-interested County chairman who run cricket allow this ?? What do you think.
See you in 4 years for the same debate !!.
I'm of the opinion that, in parallel with the England football team, two main factors contributed to parlous performances in their respective World Cups: complacency and arrogance.
England's cricket team have for a while now ignored the warning signs that the personnel currently in the international side are inadequately prepared for competition against the world's best teams. They assumed that Bangladesh would be a push-over and were embarrassed even after ekeing out a win from the game. The capitulation against South Africa had the air of an early-90s batting implosion about it, which is worrying for the future. Both results were borne out of a pre-tournament assumption that England would be in the semi-finals.
And the shoulder-shrugging manner in which the team seems to accept its defeats suggests that the players don't fully understand that it is they who are to blame for performances on the pitch, and that they are letting their supporters, who are chronically starved of sporting successes to celebrate, down.
It's a shame because more than anything else, I feel disappointed that what was a solid, consistent and exciting team of vibrant personalities appears to have fragmented into a slouching, reckless bunch of half-arsed sportsmen in an alarmingly short space of time.
Complain about this postWe need people in charge that are winners and won't settle for less!! John Buchannan is leaving his post after the World Cup surely the ECB should target him. A man with a proved track record, innovative ideas in both forms of the game and is not afraid to make changes for the better (not necessarily wholesale changes). Look at the ACB's attitude after the Ashes 2005 and now look at the Aussie team - they don't settle for second best unfortunately we do.
Are the ECB brave enough?
Complain about this postIs the National Lottery Sport Foundation going to, like, Ever change this sort of performance in the Future? The Lottery was set up in 1992. 15 years later, is there Any chance that what the whole Sport arm of the project shows is that clearly the money we spend on this is being used to truly Great effect.
If someone like this Sport funding doesn't start to make true inroads into results like these, then what real Future is there for English sport?
Perhaps by the time the Olympics are here we'll have a tremendous facility but won't actually pick up a medal?
Someoone, somewhere must be able to turn the screw on changing the face of this sort of result.
Perhaps, rather than commenting and interviewing Vaughan and Fletcher, we should turn our attention to the far more Senior representatives for English Sport?
Tim. South London.
Complain about this postIs cricket so important we should react like this:
"I think we need a nasty man in charge: a hard man"
"What's that Irish bloke's name who played for Man Utd and now coaches Sunderland? He'd do."
(Charlie Bronze, 9.05 P.M. 17th).
It will be sad day if English Cricket ever adopts such a "football mentality".
Wouldn't we be better looking for people like Mike Brearley?
Complain about this postI can see the rationale for recalling Vaughan as captain, but it seems plain now that he should have returned to county cricket to pick up some runs, some fitness and some form.
He is so woefully out of touch that his hesitant and tentative starts to innings have handed the initive to the opponents in every match.
I'd go for KP as one-day captain, I know he seems selfish at times but the responsibilty of leadership might bring out a new side to him.
(they used to say Hussain was selfish as a young player and he developed into one of England's finest captains)
Speaking about Hussain, how about Nasser to replace Fletcher as coach?
Complain about this postDuncan Fletcher should go now, or rather at the end of the World Cup, not at the end of the summer. He has done a lot for English cricket, but he should be replaced now as quickly as possible.
Complain about this postre: I have a cunning plan - I thought it was Baldrick that selected the team - Blackadder would be more sucessful
Complain about this postWe keep going round and round saying the same things about preparation.
Who is at fault for this? Ultimately i feel England are playing too much Cricket and are simply unable to settle a team due to tiredness, stress and injuries besetting the team.
The balance of the one day team was all wrong and this showed up horribly against South Africa.
I do feel England have the talent to be world beaters but at the moment the pressure of too many games and lack of leadership in terms of looking after the players is causing mayhem.
Someone needs to sort this debacle out as if we are not careful one of the most talented era's for english cricket will be gone.
It is years since we have produced players of the ilk of Flintoff, Trescothick, Strauss, Bell, Bopara, Panesar and of course Pietersen. England are blessed with talent and have the likes of Broad and co waiting in the wings. Unless however the ECB wake to the schedule and the leadership issues this talented generation could well be wasted.
Lets ask ourselves, in the last 25 years England would have given anything to have the team nucleus they have now. Only back to the days of Gatting, Gower, Botham, Willis can i remember a team that had as much talent. Personally i think the current team far exceeds even the teams of 1985 etc who last won the ashes in Australia.
Please someone wake up and smell the coffee
Complain about this postIt is strange that everyone listening and watching could see that 1 run after eight overs wasn't going to be a winning start. Nobody on the Engalnd side did?
I came home early to watch the game but it became too painful....
I would rather see a fighting team go down rather than a slow boring demise. I might have to check my Irish descendants to see if I can qualify as a fan!
A complete change of direction unfortunately will require staff changes...good luck ECB.
Complain about this postFor goodness sake Selectors!.
Take a look at the 20Twenty / Pro 40 games last year. Look at the best teams & select accordingly.
E.G:
Yardy
Loy
Sidebottom
Shreck
Nixon
Ealham (c)
Irani
Patel
Snape
Broad
Masters
Mustard
Would this outfit have performed any worse?.
Keep the 1 day team as a separate entity, it's a totally different game from the 5 dayer. We don't seem to have players who can cope with both disciplines unlike the Aussies and South Africa. Recognise that fact and deal with the situation accordingly.
Complain about this postPlease can everyone read Victoria's comments on post 171.
Even if you do not agree with her, both sides of the argument need to be addressed. What aggers has written is tabloid sensationalism. If you disagree with me, where is the other side to his argument? Even if he has strong views, he should put the case for the defence and comment on how he believes it is flawed.
I'm afraid he's sold out and everyone on the blog with the exception of Victoria has bought it.
We are clearly a very naive nation with knee-jerk reactions and susceptible to media propaganda.
Well done to the few who speak out, and shame on you aggers. You have lost my respect.
Complain about this post"Form is temporary, class is permanent" someone once said. Where are our class one day players? The malaise is so deep that it will take years to put right. We taught the world how to play one day cricket but like in a lot of other areas have just sat back and let the rest overtake us. I despair sometimes.
Complain about this postVaughan should have droped himself for the game against South Africa. It's all very well him saying he is not a quitter, but he needs to gain his one day batting form in county games not at World Cup level. We went into the game effectively one batesman short. You can't afford to do that. I'm not placing all the blame with Vaughan the whole team needs a good shake up. I do think however that Fletcher has no choice but to resign.
Complain about this postIt's just indicative of a sporting culture whereby winning is great but if you still put in minimal effort, drink like fools and fall off pedaloes and look average even against Ireland and Bangladesh; but what the hell, you still get paid. Playing for your country, wherever that may be should be honour, but we have guys who simply don't rise to the occasion, or others like Harmison who doesn't want to play in the one-day side!? It's for your country, what greater honour in sports can there be? They're just lucky they were only booed as they walked off the pitch.
Complain about this postit was a very poor performance from the batsmen upfront, and the bowlers capped it with a horrible display.
as Jonathan says, the top order showed no interest in scoring runs, just as they did throughout the tournament. Andrew Strauss did try to scor fast, and at one time he was 23 of 22 balls. but since Vaughan played a disastrously slow innings, and got out without putting anything meanningful on the bord, and a not too often flop from KP made him slow down. for the next match, the 2 andrews should open, and Vaughan should come at 4 and KP at 5.
other changes are also needed, fletcher to say Bye!, and Vaughan to go out of the ODI team, in case Tres is ready!. if he is not, then it is time for Cook to be given a chance.
Complain about this postTo be honest, I really don't care what happens to the 1 day side. It is totally irrelevant. If you look back in history people aren't interested in the 1 day game - people routinely quote the figures of the greats in the Test Game (in my memory people like Ambrose, Botham, Lara) but never quote figures from the one day game. The one day game is about as relevant to cricket as a home-run derby is to baseball.
The funny thing is, judging by the current world cup where they couldn't even fill the stadiums, the paying public seem to be agreeing with me. If you want a game where much is left to chance, and the sole objective is to slog the ball out of the park, go and watch baseball. For me, the real joy of cricket is in the 5 day game - a game without comparison anywhere in the world of sport. I personally will never forget the 1991 West Indies tour of England - Robin Smith's 150+ for example - or the Ashes tour of 2005 in more recent memory. 1 Day games - I can't remember anything from a single one that happened more than a week ago.
Complain about this postAn interesting bunch of comments. However, I think most miss two points.
First, team spirit. A belief that you can win regardless of the situation you are in. Look at Australia, New Zealand and Sri Lanka
Second, the need to work for each other as a team. I'm sorry but I do not think KP is a team player and wonder if his ego has a detrimental effect on the rest of the side to the point where he should not be there. A united team is more effective than one where some members are more interested in their personal performance.
Complain about this postGreat teams feed off each member doing their very best. Yesterday the England team were a bunch of individuals who didn't have a coherent strategy or leader.
Jonathan
Complain about this postAs an Aussie it disappoints me greatly to see the further demise of English cricket and it saddens me more when I think the low may have further to go. How will I ever forget, perhaps the most enjoyable 'Ashes' test series of all, when we were beaten last year in England. The series took me all the way back to when I was a lad tucked up in bed listening in the early morning hours to the wonderful commentary from the hallowed cricket grounds of England. It was a time when the contest was tight and fair. Well might you say that us Aussies are winning and so what is your complaint and I say, give me a contest and ultimately, cricket is the winner.
Mike Wheeler
England were lucky to make the Super 8's and didn't their performance show it. Whilst there have been some good individual performances they have not performed as a team. Maybe it is time to consider a specialist one day team - there is no logical reason why test team players should be in the one day team.
Complain about this postIt is time for Fletcher, Vaughan and others to go. Vaughan may be a good captain but his performance here both with the bat and tactically was seriously flawed.
Good interview with yesterday lunchtime.
England was so woeful that i think SA woman team could have win against them
Complain about this postThe whole team should come home as quickly as possible, play for their counties again, and then earn a place in the next test side. They have all been too mollycoddled in the England setup.
Complain about this postJonathan
Complain about this postAs an Aussie it disappoints me greatly to see the further demise of English cricket and it saddens me more when I think the low may have further to go. How will I ever forget, perhaps the most enjoyable 'Ashes' test series of all, when we were beaten last year in England. The series took me all the way back to when I was a lad tucked up in bed listening in the early morning hours to the wonderful commentary from the hallowed cricket grounds of England. It was a time when the contest was tight and fair. Well might you say that us Aussies are winning and so what is your complaint and I say, give me a contest and ultimately, cricket is the winner.
Mike Wheeler
England was so woeful that i think SA woman team could have win against them
Complain about this postIt seems all the histeria usually reserved for the English football Team has come to the surface in Cricket. Let's be realistic England were never going to win the WC, particularly as our best one day batsman in recent years decided to go walkabout. We have been a poor one day side bereft of ideas for a number of years now so why expectation should be so great i don't know! The only chance was to pick an imaginative squad purely for the WC and Nixon and Bopara apart this wasn't done. Guys like Stuart Broad would have taken a huge amount of this WC and we would have been no worse off. I would say it's back to square 1 but i'm not sure we have ever left square 1 in the first place! I just hope they give the other squad guys a go in the final game even though it's a dead game.
Complain about this postI couldn't agree more with Aggers - where was the drive from the openers maximising the use of the powerplay - as Sri Lanka, Australia and South Africa do? The batting line up needed to be rethought to play one day cricket in the 21st century - Loye, Strauss (who played quite well), then KP, Collingwood, Flintoff - then a la Australia you can play Bell or Bopara or Nixon as the match requires it. As for the bowlers we all know that Anderson and Mahmood are like Devon Malcolm used to be - on their day good bowlers but most of the time irratic and cannon fodder for world class batsmen.
Complain about this postA complete and utter shambles and the change has to start from the top with fletcher stepping down .My team for the ODIs this summer
Complain about this posttrescothick
benning
KP
Strauss
Collingwood(c)
bopara
prior
flintoff
broad
plunkett
panesar
As a Yorkshireman can I just make the point that Vaughan is actually a Lancastrian? How many Yorkshire players are there in the team? Say no more!
Complain about this postEngland's misguided approach to batting in the one day game has been cruelly exposed in this World Cup and in comparison to the really good exponents of this form of the game we look woefully inadequate. This is a shame since we do have two terrific one day batsmen in Pietersen and Collingwood, but they are almost always left to recover a dreadful start from the top three. With a few changes in personnel and more youth and athleticism in the side, we can start to rebuild (yet again!). But we have to ally that to a change in tactics and approach - which must mean the end for Vaughan and Fletcher. We cannot carry on the humiliation any longer.
Complain about this postI'm a little suprised at all the negativity.
England are currently 5th out of 16 teams. They will finish the tornament ahead of India, Pakistan, Bangledesh, Zimbabwe and The West Indies, all of which are Test nations. They finish ahead of Test-in-waiting team Kenya and saw competently dealt with minnows to stop an upset. Losing to New Zealand by just a few balls and Sri Lanka by 2 runs, they also played excellent cricket but were ultimately beaten by two teams ranked #1 and #2 - Australia and South Africa.
What's the crime?
Complain about this postWe should go back to the days of the test and one day set-ups being different. No player should automatically be put in the one day team just because he's in the test team it's simply not the same game. It isn't viewed in the reverse so why should it be so.
It's not like the world cup side can say that they were good at any single discipline either. Mahmood was a bad choice (I also don't think he's good enough for tests either) and batsmen know that Anderson will bowl at least two 4 balls an over. This then puts too much pressure on the other bowlers to make up for it. And as for the batting, the top three were never comfortable with attacking a goodish delivery.
I don't agree with Adam Ray that KP should be the one day captain. I don't think he has the skills required and very few batsmen are able to captain and still maintain their averages. And as he is currently the only hope in the team of an individual 100 it's best to let him get on with it then further burden him.
As I say I think the future is to treat the two versions of the games as different and they are different because as England showed test suited players can't go after a bowler or be economical with their bowling. I know people will say that other successful teams mainly keep the same squad but let's face it if your team is good enough to do that then great. England aren't so well need to change things and if that means spending more money on flights, accommodation and training then so be it.
Complain about this postBring back Hutton & Compton!! I see they are opening for Middlesex
Complain about this postJonathan is right to a limited extent. You cannot send half of a test team plus a few others to play ODIs.
Complain about this postDo not blame Andrew Strause, he was droped on the back of three very bad decissions and one poor stroke.
As for the team, what can you expect. We now have a situation where about thirty five of the top fifty cricketers in the county game are not English or Welsh resulting in that many young cricketers not having the opportunity to come through the ranks.
The pattern since Fletcher arrived on the scene has been for new test cricketers to do well for the first two or three games then die off as Fletchers control takes hold.
Finding a coach should not be too difficult. Dermot Reeve, Mark Rampracash or Mike Brearley might be a good place to start looking, but finding a captain is a different matter. Most of the counties have foreign captains so a new young captain needs to be trained and tutored. This coming season is obviousely the best time to do it. Throw out the old habits of making the foreign import or the senior professional the captain and train a new man with the afformentioned as advisors.
England's misguided approach to batting in the one day game has been cruelly exposed in this World Cup and in comparison to the really good exponents of this form of the game we look woefully inadequate. This is a shame since we do have two terrific one day batsmen in Pietersen and Collingwood, but they are almost always left to recover a dreadful start from the top three. With a few changes in personnel and more youth and athleticism in the side, we can start to rebuild (yet again!). But we have to ally that to a change in tactics and approach - which must mean the end for Vaughan and Fletcher. We cannot carry on the humiliation any longer.
Complain about this postIn 2004 it became clear that three players were absolutely key to England's test and one day teams. Trescothick, whose bludgeoning ability to seize the early initiative was comparable with Hayden's, and who announced a possible new order in that year by taking McGrath apart in ODI for virtually the first time; Harmison, suddenl;y the most threatening bowler in the world; and Flintoff, who started at last to fulfill his batting potential. All others, including Simon Jones and Pieterson, were dispensable: these three were not.
They then proceeded to betray and humiliate their national team by cracking under pressure, that is by failing to overcome their vulnerabilities in the interests of the greater group. Whether the England set-up could have done more to prevent this I do not know.
Harmison and Trescothick should never be allowed to play for England again. Flintoff can be retained as an opening bowler batting number eight, which is all he is, until the youngsters take over. A tragically lost generation.
Complain about this postNow that we have nothing left to play for, we should not waste the last game against West Indies.
Complain about this postBy moving Flintoff up the order, and Vaughan down, and bringing in either Plunkett or Broad to replace Mahmood (who is to expensive for the one day game but could be an asset in test matches) we would be seen to be proactive and not stagnant.
The comments criticising KP are just comical in my opinion. If he tries to bat out the entire innings due to multiple wickets falling around him, he gets called selfish. If he instead tries to attack the bowlers and create a chance in the match as others are finding it hard to score, he gets called selfish. Fredalo and pals go out on an (apparently regular) bender and yet KP gets called selfish...whilst all this is happening, KP continues to be the guy who practises longer than anyone else in the team (according to various media sources who have watched the sessions) and speaks about England with more passion than the rest. Time and again he is relied upon as the guy to get England a win or out of trouble, yet you hardly hear him complaining.
You can't call for more passion and belief and a more modern and aggressive approach and yet criticise the one player we have who displays all of the above.
From what I have read and heard, Fredalo is much more of a problem at the moment behind the scenes and has caused divisions in the team. Although again, any thoughts of dropping him are absurd when he is our only reliable bowler.
Complain about this postI think what galls me most was the almost arrogant persistence with both a team and strategy that was NEVER going to win the World Cup.
Vaughan has an avergage in the 20's and a strike rate of 66, (averaged 16 at this world cup) - he is going to have to be one mighty fine Captain to counteract the negative effect his place has on an already brittle batting line up - his presence at the top of the order and ponderous approach lead to a domino effect of pressure. This rippled down the order & without Pietersen the side would have struggled to beat Ireland and Bangladesh.. never coming close to the sides playing the game as it should be, hammering the first powerplays in a structured manner) . This side plays a style of game that would not have won the last Wolrd Cup, let alone this one!!
I also don't understand the Mahmood experiment - he cannot bowl a consisten line or length from over to over, and varies from game to game.
Back to the drawing board me thinks - I agree with Bob Willis, we should do what the Rugby World Cup winning side did - plan 4 years ahead with a squad and strategy specifically designed to win the trophy.
Complain about this postThe disappointment for me was changing the team that had finally come good in Australia. There was a good balance and great spirit in that CB winning-team. Loye was aggressive for kick-off and, if the top order failed, I liked the reassurance of having Strauss come in at 5. Plunkett was also coming good with both ball and bat. It of course wasn't surprising that Vaughan and Pietersen were reinstated, but I couldn't understand why Strauss wasn't retained at 6 and Freddie dropped down to 7 (to do what he's good at and launch a few into the Stands in the last few overs, rather than having to try to bat sensibly and repair an innings ... not his style or strength). Collingwood and Vaughan could have shared the fifth bowler's work. Instead, Bopara came in and did fairly well, but he wasn't asked to bowl so why not have a specialist batsman? Very frustrating, as with all English sport!
Complain about this postAs I pointed out in the middle of our losing streak in the CB series.
Complain about this postFLETCHER OUT
How Strauss was not retained as captain of the test and one day team after his success against Pakistan last summer beggers belief.
WE WANT ATHERS !!!!!!
I find that I am in agreement whole heartedly with Ian Botham's opinion that Duncan Fletcher should either stpe down or be replaced and the sooner the better. That he has done wonderful things for cricket over here, so he has.... in the past. The England Team's overall performance in the World Cup has been poor to say the least. Very badly unprepared with lack of any inspiration and imagination. The fact that we did not trounce the minnows (no-one likes a whitewash, but the Semi Finalists all did) andc were led by a Captain who just did not care. Vaughn also needs to go.
I accept he is a good cricketer but it's about time he accpeted that he is no longer as good as he was. His selcetion on the basis that he is a good Captain is not good enough. As one of the openers in limited overs, not once did I see him taking the game to the opposition, instead tapping and prodding as though he were in a test match. He said it was a bad day for English cricket. I am embarrased by English cricket if that is the best that we can offer!!!
Phill.
Complain about this postIn reponse to Charlie Bronze's suggestion of a hard mand to take over from Fletcher. I put forward Geoffrey Boycott. He has a very wise and knowleable head which will bring skill, experience and aggression to galvanise a team that has untapped potential.
Complain about this postI have followed the England cricket all through the winter debacle in the Australia ashes tests via the television. I also watched the Commonwealth bank triumph. I cannot see why the team setup had to change to accommodate a woeful player such as Michael Vaughan. He may be a good test player but as a one player he is awful. Andrew Flintoff may have felt slighted at the decision to drop him as one day captain and this showed in his performance in the world cup. Come on ECB step up and get rid of the dead wood at the top and give us a team cricket followers can be proud of!!
Complain about this postThe Test team should be based on the one-day team, not the other way around. It is important to understand that Test cricket has changed in recent years.
Batsmen who are able to score quickly are capable of adapting to Test cricket's more restrained requirements.
The conservative approach of the English World Cup management was a miserable failure.
Fast scoring batsmen have always been seen by English cricket authorities as somehow less reliable when compared with the plodding methodical types. This attitude must change.
It is as much a matter of attitude as technique. We saw a graphic example during the tortuous early overs of the match against S Africa.
Whoever was responsible for adopting this approach has, by accident, done English cricket a great service. Now they should resign!
Aggers, are you morphing into Johnners? Your post match analysis programmes from assorted bars in the Caribbean have been the highlight of the World Cup for this viewer.
Complain about this postEngland should divide the two teams completely.
A new captain and coach for the one-dayers and the complete separation of the two approaches is needed right now.
Vaughan and Fletcher have done brilliantly at Test level and should continue through the summer. If they fail in the summer against two other fragile teams then the review can continue into the Test team. Remember that Trescothick coming back into both sides could make a world of difference.
Aggers is spot on by choosing Collingwood as one-day captain. I wonder who would be a good one-day coach. Dermot Reeve or Trevor Penney?
Complain about this posti'm 100% percent backing the coach to get sacked, but not sure about Vaughan yet as the next captain will end up getting drunk everytime he's under pressure (Flintoff). yes they won a test series with a name in 2005 but i think its time england picked players on form and not from ancient reputation
Complain about this postI agreee with evrythimg you said Aggers. I think Flecther should have said he was going to go after the world cup. Fletcher has said he won't resign and the ECB will not sack him. So we are in a catch 22 situation.
Complain about this postWhat I cannot understand is why several of the team that showed a little form in winning the triangular tournament in Australia were summarily dispatched while the likes of Vaughan were retained or reintroduced at any cost.
Dalrymple, Plunkett, Lewis (I know he has since gone home for personal reasons) were all jettisoned very early and with Peterson's arrogance back on board, any semblance of consistency of selection and team unity went out the window.
Many great teams are better than the sum of their parts - sometimes the best team doesn't contain all of the best players.
Complain about this postI broadly agree with Johnathan's comments; there is however one thing that is often overlooked about England's approach to playing cricket, they don't enjoy it!
I listened with sadness, tinged with a little anger, to Michael Vaughan saying that England know that they need to sit down and work out where things went wrong. I cannot be the only one who is sick fed up to the back teeth of listening to this attitude. What England need to do is look forward to playing the game rather than worrying themselves sick about it through perpetual navel gazing. They need to rediscover what the rest of the top players in the world do not seem to have forgotten in the first place, i.e. that when you go out to bat in a world cup you should be feeling more like a kid in a sweet shop than a mid-life crisis live on TV. They should be saying to themselves, 'Come on then, lets see what you've got!' not, 'Oh no, we may have slightly misjudged the amount of bounce in the pitch and I didn't prepare adaquately for that eventuality'.
For crying out loud boys, just play the game. When supporters say that a league (or even village) team could have done better at times, just how far from the truth is that? At least they would be up for it.
The team are clearly being force-fed with too many strategies at the expence of the only ones that really count: bowl straight, and hit the damn ball as though you want to!
Complain about this postWhilst English one day cricket is at a real low, let's not forget what Fletcher achieved in the test match arena during his time in charge. I do think we need to realise that test cricket is very different from ODIs - we wouldn't have the same coach in charge of our X-country running team and our sprint relay quartet would we?! A re-think on the approach to one dayers is definitely needed.
Complain about this postEngland & Wales cricket board ?
Should this be displayed on all media coverage when so called England play.
England & Wales !! not just England.
Complain about this posti fink da boi in da pic looks like my son weeface
Complain about this postAs a follower of cricket for more years than I can to remember.... from the heady days of Trueman, Statham, Titmus & Barrington et al.... I feel it is, finally, time to write.
Firstly - to demonstrate how, possibly, antedeluvian my views may be - the worst thing that ever happened to cricket was Kerry Packer! What makes people think that wearing pyjamas makes cricket interesting? Whites and a red ball please!
Secondly - cricket should be a game of gentlemanly conduct and a war of tactics.... even one-day cricket. I remember the great days of the Gillette Cup and the very first World Cup! It should not be a slogging match with huge men bludgeoning the ball to all corners. Let's have wickets prepared properly to allow bowlers to demonstrate their skills. You don't need to be muscle-bound to hit sixes. Jayasuria and Ashraful [not to mention the late, great Harry Pilling] are all testament to it's being skill and technique rather than brute strength.
Also as respects gentlemanly conduct... 'sledging' should be penalised by either a financial penalty or a ban.
Thirdly - there is a reason why there are umpires on the field of play. They are the arbiters. Yes, occasionally they make mistakes, they are fallible but, overall, do a terrific job given the short time they often have to reach a decision. That decision should be accepted without demur [.... remember, this is a gentleman's game]. It is not a player's place to decide that the umpire's decision was wrong. Specifically, Anderson's histrionics when de Villiers was given not out were nothing short of disgraceful. He should be disciplined as severely as the laws of cricket allow. That said, de Villiers's response - to turn away and grin in dismissive contempt was laudable!!!
Now... to the feeble excuse for a cricket team called England.... enough has been said by the commentators already about their execrable performance yesterday. All I would say is that - if this were still a gentleman's game - Duncan Fletcher and Michael Vaughan should resign with effect from the end of this tournament. Fletcher because he is, quite simply, past his sell by date and Vaughan because his batting in one-day cricket - is atrocious. He is, simply, not up to scratch. In addition, the whole team needs to be looked at in order to ascertain whether a single one of them merits a place. That there is a first test match against the West Indies less than a month away matters not one iota - it has often been the case that there have been wholesale changes in the middle of previous test series so why not before the series begins.
Finally.... the good bit.... the standard of TMS commentators has been, as usual, terrific. I am recovering from surgery and not able to get outside much. TMS has been a great boon to my recovery and it has been entertaining to listen to, for me, many new voices..... though I have to confess to still missing John Arlott and Brian Johnson in full flow. And, I have to agree with all the other correspondents who have been praising Colin Croft for the good grace and humour he has brought to this World Cup! His enthusiasm and simple enjoyment of cricket is apparent even on the radio. I can imagine his smile... and that, for me, is what this great game should be about!
Thank you
Josef von Barnich
Complain about this postThe one-day side needs a whole new ethos and radical changes. It needs players who have learnt their trade in Twenty20 - as Graeme Smith proved last night, this is the way ODIs are going. It's just a shame that only the overseas players have applied the skills learnt in that competition to the international limited overs game. It would, of course, have helped if England's players had been released to play in the competition, but the cliquey, closed-knit "Team England" mentality has prevented that to our detriment.
The clear-out should be wholesale and, as many observers have suggested, be focussed on the next World Cup, on building a consistent side and not just using it as a breeding ground for Test players. They need to back one-day specialists who can really do a job. Nixon, though too old to be considered going forward, has proved what a man who knows limited overs cricket inside-out can achieve.
I would suggest the first ODI of the summer has this team:
Prior (wk)
Benning
Pietersen
Strauss (c)
Collingwood
Bopara
Flintoff
Plunkett
Broad
Anderson
Panesar
It's young, it has potential, it puts Flintoff at 7 and below Bopara where he belongs, it has destructive players for the powerplays and, perhaps most importantly of all, it has got rid of the burden that is Vaughan and the international joke that is Saj Mahmood. If Trescothick can get his head right then all the better. To me, that looks a promising side with good balance. Anyone agree?
Complain about this postso true aggers, get vaughan out, he has never been a one day player and he never will be. collingwood for captain. ideal one day team (withou injuries)...
trescothick
peiterson
strauss
flintoff
bell
collingwood
bopara
nixon/read
plunkett
panesar
anderson
that top 6 (in that order) would be more likely to score runs, with support from the likes of bopara and nixon/read if needed
flintoff and pieterson need to be used higher in the roder to take advantage of the power plays, and if they get out cheaply, fine, then the like of bell and collingwood can rebuild the innings, not vice versa which is our game plan at the moment!
Complain about this postA well written and reasonable argument which I hop the ECB selectors read and digest. Our lack of impetus in the powerplays gave away the initiative, and we need to beware of the 'player power' that seems to be creeping in - just look at what has happened to the national Football team. Some players seem to think they are above being dropped for poor play, whilst others in the squad and at home must feel like they will never get a fair crack of the whip.
Complain about this postYou only have to watch England's practice sessions to get a snapshot of the problems. You have players in shorts and sunglasses with that silly "collar turned-up" thing standing around talking.They break occasionally to do fake front foot forward my forearm is a bat ,strokes , the likes of which they never play in a game.
Complain about this postThe English game rewards mediocrity and does not really punish failure in a way that other team sports do. It is one of the few remaining examples of the old-boy network, the trouble is old chap is that these colonials just don't know their place anymore.
The present England cricket set up remains enigmatic. The coach and staff seem to pour endlessley over lap top computers, and for what ? The team remain unable to read a spinner correctly, or know how to bat correctly.
Complain about this postRadio & tv pundits seem to know what is going on, so why dont the players and coaching staff ?
Its time for a shake up. All we ever seem to get are the usual meaningless phrases of " its time to come to the party", "we have to put our hands up", "we have to stand up and be counted" & "we have to hit the ground running". These are as useless as the team huddle which takes place on the pitch before a match.
Stop the rot and start playing cricket - which is what the players are paid to do.
England have raw talent and thats what they should bank them selves on
Get rid of Vaughan and Fletcher, they are to determined on the old approach.
In modern day cricket you need a ruthless no nonsense captain (e.g. Smith) and you need ruthless aggressive bowlers. Much of the blame has been put on Saj, whilst no one notices that Anderson has took very little wickets. Ok, so hes economical, but in ODI's the only way you're going to get the opposition is by restricting them via wickets. Saj takes wickets even though is expensive.
Personally speaking, i think flintoff got a little too happy after the public concieved him to be God after the ashes. He needs to be dropped lower in the order and use him as a specialist bowler rather than an all rounder. I also think that after his pedalo incident, he shouldhave been sent home, showing the rest of the England team that they were there to do business not to party!
And by the way, regarding KP, hes raw talent you need him, who cares if hes big headed, that is what annoys other teams, and thats what could win us matches.
Oh one more thing, what did Jamie dalrymple ever do wrong, and why was Yardy ever dropped!? Forget Monty, hes just a cult hero, he cant bat, and his bowling has been far from worth mentioning!!
Complain about this postCan someone explain why Freddie has become such a dreadful batsman?
The winning Ashes batting line-up seemed to have strngth in depth. There was no sense of continually relying on KP. Right now we have only scores from him and an occasional Collingwood. Then, there seemed any number of batsmen who COULD score heavily, even if they didn't always.
What has changed?
Complain about this postBy creating "team England" they have removed competition, the players know they have a contract and place assured. Bring back pay 4 play all county players then have a chance of an England call up thus increasing competition and will bring back the fight in the players bellies knowing if they don't perform they're out, To those who say this will make players nervous as they may lose there place if they under perform, my answer is simple, if they think that way, they should not be in the team in the first place, they should be confident in themselves to perform or not be in the team in the first place.
Wilf, Moss side Manchester.
Complain about this postWell said Aggers, although as others have said, I'm not sure Collingwood is quite who we need at the helm. Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against him as a cricketer, and given he's put in decent performances with the bat as well as his usual efforts in the field, I wouldn't dream of dropping him. That's more than can be said for most of the rest of the current 1-day team.
Ian Bell: His best score was, I believe, against Kenya in the group stage, and I don't think he's performed since. I wouldn't necessarily kick him off the team, but I'd consider it.
Michael Vaughan: It was a risky strategy to re-select him in order to play as captain and an out-of-form batsman, and despite his previous poor record in one day cricket, it could have worked. However, it is now clear that Vaughan seems fairly inept both as batsman and captain in the one-day team, in fact his best form seemed to be when he bowled, which in my opinion is an area of his game never properly exploited. We'll never know now if he'd have made a decent all-rounder, as he should go. Not just as 1-day captain, but out of the 1-day squad. He may be one of the finest Test Captains England have produced, but he never seems to have a clue in 50-over matches. Keep him in the Test team, for now, see if his performance improves, but as a player in ODIs his career is probably over.
Andrew Strauss has been consistently average, and I mean that in its literal sense, not in the way it now seems to be applied to everything that should be termed distinctly poor. Keep him in the team, but why isn't he opening the batting like he used to?
Kevin Pietersen: why is everyone suddenly having a pop at Pietersen? Just because he failed to perform in one crucial match, some people think its the cue to try to remove the best batsman in the side. However much it may appear that he plays for himself and not the team, remember that he is purely an attacking batsman, and as such he's really not suited to his current position in the middle order. There's no way I'd get rid of him, apart from anything else, without his efforts our team might well not have even made the Super 8s. Paul Nixon was the only other batsman who made any challenge to New Zealand, and he also won us the match against Kenya with Collingwood. In the Super 8, he's posted decent scores in 3 of our 5 matches. And I agree with some comments earlier that I'd rather have a dynamic guy like Pietersen as captain of the one-day team than Collingwood.
Paul Collingwood has been consistently good throughout the tournament, and has held up the tail in several of our collapses, even to the point of scraping a win. Solid place in one-day team.
Andrew Flintoff has not had a good tournament. He has been OK with the ball but absolutely dreadful with the bat. Without taking the incident with the pedalo into account, some part of me is already calling for his replacement in the team. However, I think he's proven himself well enough in the past and deserves a let-off for recent performance. I don't know what he needs to get back into form with the bat, but I hope he manages it soon, otherwise another great cricketer will have to be dropped from the one-day team for poor performance.
Ravi Bopara has been put so far down the order that he's not had much chance to shine as a batsman. I have no idea whether he yet deserves his place in the team, and would suggest that for one match, perhaps the upcoming one against the West Indies, he's tried up the order and we get a look at what he can do unshackled by the team being 6 or more wickets down. Give him some time.
Paul Nixon has taken a long time to make it into the England team, and although I hadn't seen him before he broke through into the team, I already think there is a strong character there who is probably the best candidate for a new one-day captain. His performances behind the stumps have been well up to scratch, although nothing spectacular, and he has carried so many matches after the top batsmen have all gone. A shame his effort against Sri Lanka didn't last quite long enough. Wicket-keeper for foreseeable future.
Sajid Mahmood is inconsistent with the ball. At his best, he is a match winner, and having seen him playing against Sussex's C&G cup-winning performance last year, he is certainly to be feared when on form. However, his batting has got to improve in order to be so high in the tail. There is a good case for dropping him, but if that were done, I don't think he'd improve so quickly as in the environment of the national side. Needs to improve fairly quickly to be sure of his place though.
Monty Panesar is a decent bowler who doesn't seem sure of himself in ODIs. Someone needs to give him the confidence that he can be a wicket-taking bowler rather than just having the normal defensive role English spinners play.
James Anderson has never quite lived up to expectation, but with so many of England's top bowlers counting themselves out of the one-day team, not to mention the farce of Steve Harmison's performance at the start of the Ashes Tour, we have nobody else.
There is a lesson or two to be learnt here, one of which is that if you take a good Test player and tell him to play limited-overs cricket, he needs to put a decent performance in to survive there, no matter who it is. Another is that we cannot have a situation where players who don't feel like playing one-day matches can just say so. Anybody who doesn't want to play, doesn't want to play at all, and should be told that if they drop themselves from one team, they can expect not to be picked for the other either. Obviously we need to have some variation from the Test team to the ODI team, as mentioned earlier, but this should be done by the selectors, not the players.
Some people have suggested that Marcus Trescothick should return to the ODI team at the top, but after having to return home on two separate occasions after being picked, I would have problems with him being on a touring team. Perhaps he could play within England only, but this seems a bit unfair if other players who've been doing OK have to be dropped for a guy whose performance is untested in recent years.
In the end, the performance at the CWC has ranged from dreadful to just below average, and we were very lucky to be in the Super 8s.
Perhaps a suitable remedy would be to play a short ODI series against Ireland at the start of every summer, then a later 4-way series with the 2 visiting teams. That would give all parties an opportunity to play teams above their own standard, and get decent match time in. Apart from that, as we have seen since we arrived in Australia last autumn, we need more warm-up matches, say 6 or 7 rather than 2 or 3. Finally, get the England players playing one day matches at county level, they really need to.
Duncan Fletcher has been very good for our Test team, and has done some good for the ODI performance, but I agree, his shelf life has expired, and with hindsight arguably did so at the end of the 2005 Ashes triumph. An announcement should be made that he is to go, whether by him or the ECB, with effect from the end of the English summer.
Vaughan, as I detailed above, should not in my opinion be in the ODI team, with effect either from the end of the World Cup, or this summer, but no later. We have to start building for the next World Cup now. Whether Paul Nixon will still be playing for England then is debatable, but he seems the best choice at the moment.
Complain about this postEveryone talks about forward thinking, but to my mind with ODI and test cricket being two entirely seperate mindsets why don't we keep the proven (2007 Ashes excluded) Fletcher for Tests and have a seperate coach for ODI. It's surely similar to Rugby Union and 7's rugby, same laws, totally different tactics and attitudes. Thats the only way we are going to really prove ourselves on the ODI scene, by employing specialists. Anyone else agree?
Complain about this postto Dave Ball (476)
To suggest the captaincy is given out according to the player having 'the right accent' or 'having gone to the right school' is utter nonsense.
Flintoff was captain, for goodness' sake! He is one of the biggest yobbos out there!
I dont care if England are captained by a lord or a dustman, provided he can instill discipline into the team. I am quite sure the selectors feel the same.
Complain about this postDespite the batting woes - which I think have something to do with the opening batsmens favorite stroke, forward f-ing defensive - the main problem with the England team seems to be a lack of depth in the bowling. When you look at a team like New Zealand, they have Bond, Oram, Franklin, Styris, McMillan and Vettori, that's six bowlers who cause problems. You look at the English bowling line up past Flintoff, and Anderson, Mahmood, Collingwood, Panesar and a never used Bopara. Hardly a bowling line up to strike fear into the heart of any batsman. Mahmood does get wickets, but he's too inconsistent - Vaughan's decision to bring him back into the attack against Sri Lanka possibly cost us that game - while Monty, while he's gonna be a great spinner in years to come, he's not there yet. Unfortunately, he's the best weve got. Why aren't bowlers like Broad in the ODI team I have no idea. Sort out the bowlers, and the batsmen will follow
Complain about this postWhy do we need two cricket teams when the rest of the world seems able to play one day and test match cricket with (virtually) the same teams? We have been following this split team philosophy for several years now and the results tell us that it is not working. A team is after all a TEAM? Aren't Hoggard and Harmison as good as Mahmoud and Anderson? Can't Cook play one day cricket? etc etc Play Vaughan down the order, he will regain his form when he starts playing cricket again and he is a good Captain, but like any other he needs a good TEAM to achieve!
Complain about this postJonathan you are quite insightful.
I am glad England didn't make it to the semis, it would have been undeserved.
At least we have 4 teams that are hungry and starting to peak.
I think it is not too hard to see South Africa winning after that display and New Zealand and Sri Lanka are capable.
A competitive world cup.
But why did it take until the semis to look interesting?
Complain about this postPosting from Anthony da Silva prompted me to think. Yes, England still play cricket the old way, and I think we'll miss it when it has gone.
The ODI game is indeed more like base-ball or rounders - bring on the cheerleaders! Much of the fast bowling in particular has moved away from actually aiming at the wickets - it is a novelty when they get hit which means that they can now be painted with advertising....(yes, I know, there are run-outs, I'm just being cynical).
If England want to do well at ODI they need to play cricket with the "baseball mentality" and be encouraged to do so by shifting the emphasis to limited over competitions rather than the County Championship which is still seen as the major prize. If not they should quietly drop out of ODIs and concentrate on Test cricket - that performance against SA shows how poor the England approach is.
This performance could well spell the death of traditional cricket in England.
Complain about this postI would like to Vaughan to stay as captain but for him to bat at 6 or 7. He is a great leader and I think we need his shrewdness and leadership in the side. He has always batted up the order in ODI cricket and that has contributed to his downfall. England seem inflexible, in that they're not willing to try anything new, such as putting Flintoff to open with Bell, bringing Pietersen up to No.3 where he really should be batting. The batting order seems all wrong and Fletcher seems completely oblivious to the failings of the one day side. It was the same when he persisted with Geraint Jones as an opener. The batting at the top is conservative beyond belief lacking in ambition and positivity. Fletcher has done fantastic things for English cricket and nobody should forget that. But it is time for a change of coach of the England side, as Ian Botham said, 'Everyone has a shelf life' and Fletcher's is long up. I would like to see Tom Moody given the job. It seems W. Australia are ready to sign him up so the ECB must act fast if they want to secure the services of what seems to be the best young cricket coach in the world.
Complain about this post"Its time for a change & accept the Facts"
3 qualified teams from UK for WC 07
->>Ireland,Scotland,England
Combine a new team who can beat OZ
UK Team .............
Complain about this postJH Slater is being a little unfair in saying that Fletcher should have stood down after the 2005 Ashes.
No one would have been able to come in and make the necessary preparations to an Ashes team. The team would not have respected Fletcher's replacement.
Obviously, now a replacement will be welcomed with open arms and open minds
Complain about this postThe current English team will never be able to recover from their appalling form over the last few months. The 5-0 defeat in the ashes and their general lack of ability during the world cup will hang over them all for the rest of their careers. The entire team should be excluded from ever donning and England shirt again and a completely new team and coach need to be found.
Australia has a population of only 20 Million. Surely out of our 60 million people we can find 10 blokes who can hit a ball.
Complain about this postHow does Vaughan deserves to b a captain when he shouldn’t even b in the team?....wer is Vikram Solanky (Stylish batsman)???....wer is Owais Shah (known 2b 1 of the best spin player). Monty is terrible in 1day cricket.
Complain about this postVaughan's arrogance in saying he should continue as captain is breath-taking. Does he not realise that England have played well below the standard they should play at. If he was such a fantastic captain as people say why don't the results reflect this. Fletcher also was take responsibility for the performance and resign. The grasp of one day tactics was mind-blowing in its naivety.If you are going to post a score to put your opponents under pressure you must use all the available overs and not give the opposition the chance to settle with maidens at the start. It also helps if you bat for the full 50 overs.
Both Vaughan and Fletcher should remember that words count for nothing and it's results that do the real talking. Flintoff is obviously out of sorts with the bat though he remains a real threat when bowling. KP has been criticised in the media for not building on his scores and converting them to centuries so it was no surprise when he decided to bat a little selfishly against Australia.
I feel sorry for the more junior members of the side who have done their best but have been badly let down by the management both here and in the Ashes.
Complain about this postIn February Michael Vaughan said, “I think we are in a lot better position than we were at the end of January, we have got an opportunity to create something special. We haven't really turned up at a World Cup since 1992 and it is about time we did.
“This group of players has got a great opportunity of being the first England team for 15 years to go on and be successful.”
They did. They failed. Responsibility starts at the top with the selectors and carries on down through the coach to the captain and to the players. No one should be spared full analysis. Resignation is not one option it is the only option.
Complain about this postI have to say that i whole heartedly agree with Aggers' views on the defeat and the notion that now is the time for change.
We seem to have a tendency in England, throughout all our sports to pick players more by their reputation than by form or indeed record and as a result i think this is why we are incapable of performing at major tournaments.
Indeed it is at these most crucial international competitions that our weaknesses as a sporting nation are exposed by coaches and players who simply have more tactical nounce and unfortunately this was highlighted by yesterday's dismal peformance.
From a deflated England cricket supporter.
Complain about this postWe do seem to be lacking a few certain areas.
Michael Vaughan should never have been picked in the squad. I dont remember any succesful team carrying their captain and usually it works the other way around. Now I am not doubting that we have an excellent cricket mind in the field when he is playing, but there are others who can use his knowledge, like Collingwood.
Duncan Fletcher has put Englands test team firmly back on the map and once again they are a tough team to come up against, but the One day team has suffered badly as a result.
If England is to improve drastic changes are going to need to be made, more one day events, getting a good use of varied pitches.
England beat only one other test playing nation this entire tournament and I dread to think what is going to happen in this 20/20 tournament that is now fast approaching.
Strauss for captain, give him another go, he didn't do a bad job last time against Pakistan. Bring in Stuart Broad, who had a fantastic campaign, allowing Mahmood to have anoher county season, along with the likes of Plunkett and let them develop
Complain about this postI think we also need to recognise that Vaughan's batting can no longer cut it in the test arena either.
Complain about this postI can't believe how harsh some posters are being on the team. Fair enough we didn't match up, but who honestly expected us to? Apart from the purple patch of 2005 the England cricket team has not performed for years, especially in ODI's. I think the team tried their hardest and failed. I wouldn't attack the players about this.
Complain about this postEspecially Peterson - the one shining light of the WC - all this talk of his arrogance and how we won the CB series without him. Come on people. Without Peterson there is no England batting attack!!! He is the only one who gets out there and takes it to the bowlers. He is our only weapon. And that I think is the problem. Bearing in mind his SA roots, he has a different psychology to the English. A mindset typified by the Aussies. One of agression, determination and fighting spirit. All of our national sports teams lack this. It is so evident in the soccer and recently rugby teams. The English are still too nice, sport is still a pleasentry. We need the guts of the Aussies and the never say die spirit. That's what will win us matches. But where do we get it from? Maybe we should get Steve Waugh in as our coach....
I could not agree more with the thoughts of Aggers. There needs to be wholesale changes to the one-day side. I think Strauss should be appointed captain and Collingwood is vice. It is incontrovertible that Vaughan is simply not up to the task of playing international one-day cricket, although as a Test Captain he is the best Englead leader since Mike Brearley.
Regarding Fletcher he has done some great things as coach of England, notably masterminding the 2005 Ashes series win. However, it is time for him to be replaced with my own personal choice of Tom Moody - he will bring dynamism and new ideas to the post which Fletcher is sadly lacking.
Complain about this postJonathan is clearly as annoyed as I am by England's capitulation. However, we perfoemd accoridng to our world ranking, which is more than can be said of Pakistan and India.
Do we honestly beleive that we can be world beaters with the prevailing attitude to winning in this country. Also, we simply do not have the interest / numbers playing to do much better.
We need to face it - we are unlikely to win the world cup in the future and our test standing is likely to go downhill as well. We seem to go into these compteitions beliveing we can beat everyone and are then surprised when we don't.
Complain about this postEngland are still harping on the 2005 ashes. This is 2007 wake up...that series is long gone and so is the form of the players then save one or two. Vaughn is blowing his own horn by saying that he is a good captain..well tell me..what have you to show for that? The CB series trophy? A fluke? A good captain leads from the front..his form hardly reflects good leadership. You won a crucial toss yesterday but made a mess of it..
Complain about this postEngland deserve what they got and they owe it all to their captain.
Some radical changes are necessary after this debarcle.
Complain about this postA new coach, who simply must be an allrounder (Botham?) is a must, but we also need to look to the grassroots. Up and coming new talent should be introduced - at a risk sure - but to build a new team, not trying to reporduce old victories with mainly the same team.
Change is necessary and is necessary now. Please ECB, do not sit on the fence, it may be unpleasant to do in the short term, but get on with making the changes to secure the future of the game in England.
We should be able to win the Ashes back next time, and the team that achieves this should be mainly new blood.
I agree, Aggers. All the CB trophy success was to paper over the cracks in England's one-day strategy which have again been exposed in this tournament. I am tired of being constantly told by Michael Vaughan & other players before each match that the team is up for it and then, after each pitiful performance, being told that the team can & has taken "positives" out of their performance which they can take into the next one when reality has proven otherwise. When will we do ourselves justice in the one-day arena?
Complain about this postWe should give up on cricket, concentrate on Football. Umm on second thoughts best to just give up...
Get Vaughny out i say. Bring in someone who can motivate their team. Not sure he is capable of doing that. We can see he is not able to do that from the performance.
As for the coach any bonus he maybe due should be taken away.. Infact the whole team should not be paid for the tournament. THEY DON'T DESERVE IT.......
Bunch of loosers
Complain about this postThank God the ECB flogged the live TV rights to Sky, otherwise I might have had to watch this recent farce. Intresting to note the excuse for taking the money from Sky and ignoring the majority of the fan-base was to "use the money to improve the game at all levels". I guess we are still waiting. And don't let's just slag-off the team and the coach, what about the "blazers" at the top who are ultimately responsible and should do the honourable thing and resign. Very quiet at the moment, aren't they!
Complain about this postHi
Agree with your comments, but why Collingwood, when the obvious candidate for captain is KP.
KP may not be everyones 'cup of tea' but he is not only the best one day player in England but arguably the 'world'
Collingwood is a fine player and may be a great future Captain, but in modern sport, the Captain is not the brains of a team but the focus. Why not let that focus be the best batsmen in the world
Flintoff would be VC
Sydney Australia
Complain about this postQuite agree Johnathan. I do think that one thing is being consistently overlooked however; England simply do not enjoy playing cricket.
When you walk out to bat in a world cup you should be like a kid in a sweet shop not a mid-life crisis live on TV. Most of the world’s top batsmen play the game as though they enjoy it, e.g. ‘How dare you have the temerity to think you can bowl at me! If that ball is anywhere other than perfect length on middle stump it’s out of here’ and not ‘Oh no, the pitch is fractionally more bouncy than I prepared for, this is going to be a major problem’. They back themselves to smack the ball to all parts and can’t wait to get on with it, like a kid in the park, or a village team on a Sunday afternoon who are in a hurry to get to the pub! They relish the moment whereas England’s players seem to be scared of it.
I have this impression every time I watch England, and my opinion is unfailingly confirmed when I hear the usual blood curdling cry of: “We know what we have to do; we need to go away and sit down and work out where we went wrong and how we can improve”. No you don’t! You need to get a life Mr Vaughan. Try taking the boys to the park for knockabout and then go to the pub. The rest of us aren’t interested in your navel gazing, we are interested in seeing a team who look like they would be playing even if they weren’t getting paid for it.
Knocking KP for his belligerent self interest (as many are) is pointless as he seems to be one of the few England players who actually relishes ‘having a go’. Pacing his innings to better suit a particular game can be instilled, but to knock the stuffing out of him first is counter-productive.
Having said all this, I do think there is far too much one-day cricket; it used to be fun but now it’s just tedious. The more of these pointless games are played (like the Commonwealth Bank series) the more pointless it seems to be. These series do not determine anything. I can’t help but feel that the England team see it as just another day at the office, without actually enjoying the job.
Take a holiday boys…play some cricket?
Complain about this postI personally am split on alot of the issues raised..For a start, Michael has, and is doing a great job as capt and should remain there for a long time yet, I am a big fan of his. It doesn't need the public to tell him his batting isn't up to scatch!!
Fletch too is the right man for the job, he has bought us a long way, but yes, the OD issue needs to be adressed and fast.
But I think it's the selectors' who need to look at themselves..Our bowling was extremely weak and the batsman around Vaughan didn't do the business. We looked a distincly ave side, nervous and low on confidence, but did put some glimpses of hope in some games..the close run game with the Lankans and maybe the Oz game.But again, both we lost!
The players im afraid talked the talk, but didn't walk the walk..and that goes for England teams as a whole! Think back to the football team WC 2006 in Germany.
What we could of done with players of the heart of Goughie, Loye, Ramps and def Key. Certain players who were there just were never up to it. We needed players with experience and big hearts to really take the game to any team we were playing and have a more ruthless approach. English fans want to see the big hitters and bowlers bowling at 90mph round the neck!!
In a nut shell, the set up can still work, but the selector's have got to be in the firing line too..
Complain about this postI'm sorry Aggers.. but Collingwood as captain? You really are clutching at straws, there is no question that vaughen should be dropped from the one day side, but Collingwood is inexperienced at captaining even at domestic level. If the captain does have to come from the current squad then I myself would choose Strauss, however maybe England should follow the method that has worked dividends for South Africa with Graham Smith and pick someone who hassnt got the hurt of crashing out of a world cup and a 5-0 ashes wollopping behind them and go for a fresh face. That is one option .. a second option if they really want an aggressive mind is to pick an aggressive player.. Pieterson is the first name that comes in to mind, but again he lacks experience as a captain.
Complain about this postThey are radical approaches i know.. but surely that is what England need?
If England really want to succeed, they need to recruit more Boers!
Having Strauss to win the tests, and Pietersen the one-dayers, is not enough. Sure, Strauss may be a back-up for the one ltd overs game in twenty that Pietersen doesn't come off, but there are a hundred Pietersens and Strauss's in South Africa who will never make the S. African team due to quota's.
The world is being robbed of watching such talent
(international spectators would never have witnessed KP had he not come to the UK) on the international stage.
The would-be player of this tournament is a guy by the name of Johan van de Wath, who international crowds will never see.
This guy bowls better than Flintof, and is ten times the batsman. Then there are the Morkel brothers. I read where an Aussie guy said he can't believe they're not both in the set-up.
There are even some Boer spinners...
Ah whatever!
Complain about this postAggers is not only from Macclesfield, from where a kindred spirit, Mr. Methane, hails, but his 'number of the beast', first-class, wicket-haul gives us all a clue as to the amount of sulphurous gas emanating from that unit's lower abdominal area and face-hole combined. Cricket is a metaphor for wasting time. It is just a game. If you win, you win. If it is your sole objecive to win, make yourselves unbeatable. Otherwise, enjoy the ignominious defeats with as much good grace as the implausible, uncommon, fluky Ashes wins and thank your lucky stars that you're in the Caribbean talking about nowt and getting handsomly remunerated for the privilege...
Complain about this postAny sentiment expressed here, does not necessarily reflect the views of humanity, but let's face it, we have riches beyond the dreams of avarice/Croesus and let's laugh all the way to the next hideous drubbing.
England did not deserve a place in the semi-finals.
True!
Paul Collingwood Should be the captain of the one day side. However Vaughan should stay as the test captain. So whats wrong with English cricket? is it the coach? as Ian Botham suggests or is it that we dont have the players? Its been a sad time for English cricket and one thing is for sure, when you crash out of a tournament in the embarrassing way England did you need to look at the players. Let us not forget when these players should of been in the nets, they were out getting drunk! It seems that a lot of the England team use tournaments as a holiday and a chance to be foolish. Players should receive bigger fines and told that if it ever happens again their international career would be over. Bring in a coach who would not be affraid to kick out players who do not cut the mark. I also think if a player (batsmen) falls below a certain average they should be dropped. To end lets not forget the great Freddie Flintoff who was embarressed by his drinking and inability to bowl or bat in this tournament. What are we to do with him?
Complain about this postChanging the coach and/or captain may well help, but until the structure of English cricket changes we'll carry on being an ordinary side. The county structure is too weak. Look at the overseas players (Aus and SA mostly) that come in and do so well, all the time. For them its easy to play at county level as they are used to tough cricket at home.
We need a regional system of 6 or 8 sides, (say Middx, Surrey, Kent and Sussex) - call it something like SE England, then take the best 3 or 4 players from each county making a squad of 16. This becomes the First Grade, then the counties continue as they are playing Second Grade. Still allows them to scout for local players and pick players they think have potential. Then the best of these get noticed by their region and picked accordingly. Seems to me that County cricket is not much better than a good town side of league cricket.
Complain about this postOnly in England can we be daft enough to pick a squad that contained so many players with dubious fitness combined with a complete lack of match practice with the expectation that it will be all right on the night. Only shining lights in the past weeks were Ravi and Monty. Jimmy A. & Sajid have my sympathy, but the damage was already done by the complete failure of our "senior" batsmen. Considering Hall and most other m/f swing bowlers have performed well in this World Cup, where was Hoggy? Fletcher & Co. still have the stupid mind set that there are so-called specialist one-day players - there are no such thing, just excellent cricketers who adapt their game to the conditions. I think a certain Mr Kallis has 9000 ODI runs - if he was English no doubt he would never get in our one day side as a specialist one day player. As for Vaughan …….. if I hear one more comment "we'll have to go away and analyse where we went wrong"…….. don't you know yet? I think the phrase is "analysis to paralysis". Pick you best fit, in-form players and that's half the job done, the second half is to believe in your ability to win and hit the ball off the square!
Complain about this postI do not know why people like Agnew suggest the heads of the captain and the coach when team loses. If England were to win that match the above suggestion probably would not have been there.The English players are not boys who need guidance and motivation. They are professionals and I believe need no motivation from outside source. They are capable of self motivation. What is really affecting England is that they do not have players of ability to take on strong opposition, barring of course K Pietersen. As regards bowling the less said the better. It will take some more years for England to evolve as top international cricket team.
Complain about this postbajarkar
MJ, i see your point about KP's absence seeming to have a somewhat positive influence on the current team but i completely disagree that this means he has a bad influence on the confidence and morale of others, and as such is not fit to lead the team.
i think this attitude continues to wrap an underachieving team in cotton wool. the lack of confidence shown by all the top order batsmen is not down to having one of the best batsmen in the world in their midst.
these are meant to be top professionals, who have the talent to perform at the highest level. assigning their lack of form to KP's brash exterior is, i think, slightly naiive.
if we look at the other top one day sides (Sri Lanka maybe aside) we can see that it is the best batsman leading the team. ponting is no wallflower yet he brings the best out of his team. and his rise to captaincy was questioned when he was first selected. look how his confidence/arrogance has brought the best out of his own game and the team. the same applies with graeme smith.
KP is our best player. he is arrogant and maybe lightly self-interested but i think giving him the captaincy of the one day team would be inspired. especially with talk of flooding new young players in. who better to learn off? his aggression and no-nonsense style is now needed to drag this one day side back onto a competetive field. And with Vaughn remaining Test Captain, he would have a wealth of tacticul experience to learn from. i would also like to think he has enough respect for Vaughn to not 'step on any toes'.
Colly is too safe a bet. lets 'god-forbid' take a very un-English chance and give KP the one-day captaincy!
Complain about this postAs a South African I was delighted anf relieved at the Proteas perfromance . (we are not without our own problems) I think it was Nasser Hussien who said that England was playing an "old style cricket "and South Africa the "new " The 50 over game has been influenced by 20/20 cricket and South Africa and Autsralia have realsied that . They have moved from the realms of the impossiiple to the world of the plausable and through to the expected . , "if you believe it , you will see it ." The English side never believed it , perhaps because they do not have the mindset or the technical skills to back themselves in the new style of the game. To get there requires a paradigm shift in the mental approach as much as technical skills . Fletcher is not soley to blame. The problem lies deeper at the very core of what is traditionally English. I feel that KP will also be swallowed up by that very energy that will require his compliance rather than celebrate his "arrogance " Can you imagine Shane Warne ever suceeding if he played for England.?
Complain about this postBoth Aggers and Ian Botham are right. Vaughan and Duncan Fletcher must now go. Vaughan, no matter how good a captain, a team cannot carry a batsman not scoring any runs, especially a number 2. What hope did we have with never setting a decent score to defend against the best teams! He is a better test batsman, and perhaps his position in the test team is not under threat, but runs on the board are what a team needs in the first place. As for Duncan Fletcher, he has been a great coach and took England to new heights, ASHES win etc., but I heard a comment this morning, "...did we win the Ashes, or did AUS lose them?" Perhaps, while on the crest of the wave following the win, as I was, along with everyone else, were we as good as we thought?
Complain about this postAs embarrassing and depressing as England's performace has been throughout the World Cup, the most depressing aspect is Vaughan's insistence that there are positives to be drawn on....really? What are they? The fact that we had a toothless opening partnership with both bat and ball? The fact that we struggled to beat minnows and have so far failed to beat any of the bigger nations? Could someone help me with this, I just can't see the positives!
Aggers is right, but MJ is wrong, to blame KP for our world cup demise is naive at best, blinkered at worst. Yes he is arrogant and a little selfish, but so were Boycott and to a lesser extent, VIv Richards. And like KP, Richards was wonderful to watch.
Complain about this postDoh! Some of us have been saying this since the Ashes debacle. In my view, the basic problem is too much 'old blood' thinking that 200 a day is a good run rate. Come on guys, times have changed and this a one day series! Graveney and Fletcher must go at least - they are stifling progress. England need a coach that will make them more aggressive with the bat...not this faffing around at 3 runs/over. Will England finally learn from their total humiliation by SA? Will this finally be enough for a shake-up, or will there have to be further series wipe outs first?
Complain about this postI think that KP must get rid of some of his arrogance and start putting the team and its needs above his own needs. The very fact that he can call a captain of an opposing team a muppet and then think that he will not be a target when he comes up against that captain is naive in the extreme. He had the temerity to say that Ricky Ponting opened his mouth and said something to him resulting in his century! I think playing for England should be his motivation and not his own glory and who says what to him. I think England have too much net practice (they do very well in the nets you know) and they should learn to relax and let their natural talent shine through. Nets make them nervous.
Complain about this postWhy did Vaughan choose to bat and then once the South Africans started bowling, decide not to bat?
Complain about this postMy test team would be.
1.Vaughan
2.Cook
3.Vaughan
4. Pieterson
5. Bell
6. Collingwood
7. Flintoff
8.Read
9.Hoggard
10.Harmison
11.Monty
Anyone agree?
Complain about this postSadly, I don't think Vaughan should be captain for either the one day or test teams. Jonathan's remark that to have Collingwood as one day captain is in part is OK because he won't tread on Vaughan's shoes. I think that Vaughan's attitude undermined the Ashes tour when a 'gentleman' would have stayed away from the tour. I don't believe he can unite a team whose disintegration he has helped accelerate the implosion when he was Captain. His tactical insight is overrated, at both the test and one day games. Waiting for an eternity before scoring a single is not the cleverest of tactics.
Complain about this postAggers is spot on about the bad joke that is England's top 3. One-dayers are all about momentum, and if you just hand that over to your opponents by blocking out 10 overs then giving your wicket away, it shouldn't come as any surprise if you lose more matches than you win. We desperately missed Trescothick, and in his absence Mal Loye should have played. The averages and strike rates of the top 3 for England and the semi-finalists in this World Cup reveal a lot about where things went wrong for England.
Australia - Av 69; SR 100
South Africa - Av 54; SR 96
New Zealand - Av 37; SR 79
Sri Lanka - Av 37; SR 76
England - Av 24; SR 62
Back to the drawing board I feel...
Complain about this postWe need to boost our confidence so I suggest we limit ourselves to a new annual home international one day tournament ...err hold on, second thoughts, Ireland and Scotland might run us a bit close.
Complain about this postHave Andorra and the Faroe Islands got cricket teams?
I think Aggers you with the camp who didn't want Mal Loye in the squad and applauded the inclusion of Bopara. Where exactly did you think the momentum and attacking play was going to come from by not including an attacking batsmen in the top of the order. I like Mal Loye but it didn't necessarly have to be him but he was used to good effect in the Commanwealth Series.
Bopara was a good pick as well so it should have been Joyce or Strauss to be left behind.
The Inept batting at the start of the innings against South Africa is exactly why the selectors and coach should be sacked, But this is England so sadly it won't happen
From a Fed up England Fan
Complain about this postAs usual correct!! I have thought for some time Fletcher should go and that Vaughan never, isn't and never will be a ODI player......his captaincy this time round was also sus to say the least? Freddie looks well out of form BUT there are pluses...Bopara looks very promising and should bat lower down the order....perhaps fred should go up the order. Bring back Loye and see waht he does and why not try Cook?
Cook/Strauss, Loye, Bell, Colly, KP, Bopara, Fred, Nixon/Prior, Simon Jones, Monty, Anderson or more probably Broad.
Fred, S. Jones, Monty, Ravi Bopara and 1 strike bowler gives you 5 bowlers plus KP, Bell and Colly can also bowl. The Test team future is and has been bright for years........theres no reason why the ODI team can't do the biz...you need right coach and players to do it.
Complain about this postWhat this game has done is highlight the debacle that is the English Cricket Team. The defeat yesterday not only ended our World Cup hopes (what hopes??) but also ended the most depressing winter of cricket witnessed for a long long time.
It is about time Duncan Fletcher left, no matter what he has done in the past he needs to go now before it is far too late. Everybody has a shelf life and i think his has been reached. We need somebody with a fresh ideology.
Also in my opinion team selection was wrong. Dropping Mal Loye was the first mistake, he would've provided the impetus we so obviously miss at the top of the order.
Australia, Sri Lanka, New Zealand and South Africa all get big scores in the first fifteen overs to relieve the pressure on the middle order and support a big total.
I still feel that Collingwood, Bell and Pietersen is the correct middle order and should form the basis of the batting lineup.
Vaughan has shown himself to be a good captain but we cannot simply pick him to organise our bowlers and fielders, he needs to contribute using the skills he was picked in the first place for... his batting. I feel Paul Collingwood would be an excellent replacement.
Flintoff and Panesar are arguably our two best bowlers and therefore merit a place in the team, however after this we are struggling. Sajid Mahmood needs a few more years getting wickets at county level before he is ready for the International scene.
My main gripe with the bowling attack is it not including Matthew Hoggard. He has proven a very consistant and mature bowler at test level, capable of getting big wickets. If there are doubts about his economy rate then fair enough but look at the bowlers taken to this World Cup some possess an economy rate of 7, we hardly have the meanest bowling attack in World cricket.
The powers that be need to take a long hard look and sort things out while they still can or we risk falling further and further behind the rest of the world in terms of quality.
Highlighted by our wins so far this World Cup...Kenya, Canada, Ireland and Bangladesh hardly awe-inspiring stuff!!!
Complain about this postFor all the pain and shame reflected above, I have to say that what I saw from England pretty much reflected what I expected to see.
I offered the comment, after the Ashes, that what England cricket needs to do is copy what the successful sides in Test and One Day matches do. That is a matter way beyond the trivial issues if selections for teams in the respective forms of the game. Above the issue of whether Vaughan, Collingwood or WG Grace should be Captain.
It goes to the very structure of the game, form and duration of domestic competitions, nature of pitches prepared (and upon which players prepare themselves), composition, accountabilities and responsibilities of controlling committees (and individuals), selectors, coaches, support staff, media management et al.
What is very obvious from watching the English team is that none of these elements can at present be right. Whether vested intesests and those entrenched in lucrative positions at present are big enough and game enough to chance opening the system up to review and restructuring will pretty musc determine whether there is a viable English team within four years.
Complain about this postAny fool would have realised before the World Cup that England's chances of doing well were very slim. They had lost their most consistenly destructive one-day batsman in Tresco-Thick. Their best 2 bowlers over the last few years weren't there (Harmison & Hoggard) & their captain hadn't held a bat in a real match for a long time so it wasn't a surprise that he looked completely out of touch. Harmison has yet to regain the form he showed a couple of years ago (when rightfully he was the best bowler in the world) & without him firing on all cylinders it was no surprise the Aussies destroyed us this winter. It was right that he was not picked for the world cup but without him we don't have a world class bowler. The others are young & getting better but they're not quite world standard yet. This is obvious when you compare them to McGrath, Pollock, Ntini, Bond, Vaas, Kumble, Malinga, Muralitharan, Hall, Vettori, Bracken & Tait etc. Maybe Flintoff is an exception. But just look at the averages. Is all this Duncan Fletcher's fault? If so, sack him. My opinion is that if DF gets the sack so should all the TMS crew for leading the UK public into believing we had the remotest chance of doing well in the world cup. I know we like to live in hope & be positive but get real please. I was disappointed by England's performances in the world cup but not surprised. But as the media love to make people into scapegoats I would like to nominate the media as the scapegoat. As the England team is made up of so many no hopers we should be applauding them for making the Super 8's. After all, Pakistan & India didn't & they're both better one day teams than England......
Complain about this postChanging captain, players or coach is no solution. There'll be no long-lasting improvement until the whole structure of first class cricket in England is overhauled. Remember, the Ashes success was based on central contracts and removing the top players from the grind and mediocrity of the county circuit.
Complain about this postThe county system doesn't foster "quality". Instead, it provides "quantity" for counties desperate for the revenue from as many games as possible.
But how to go about change? After all, it's the counties themselves who have the votes - change cannot be imposed on them. Perhaps the ECB should threaten to whithhold payment of TV revenue until something is done...
It seems to me that a comparison to England's performance in the football world cup of 2006 is unavoidable...England stodgy, tactically poor and seemingly playing a different sport to the top teams. In both cases we lived on in hope that something would click, that they would suddenly come right and show some class. But as with the footballers in Germany it was not to be. So England are out of the competiton, Fletcher will soon be out of a job, but at least we've all been put out of our misery!
Complain about this postDoes any other international team have players picking and choosing what tours they go on or which form of the game they play? Does any other international team have the body language like ours yesterday? It would seem we lack the desire to win that other teams crave. England have lost all credibility, and any fear factor they once had. We are lucky that the summers test series' are against two other sides who had poor world cups. Had any of the WC semi finalists been visiting our shores this summer they would psycologically start the series 1 or 2-nil up!
Anyone who has played cricket knows that form comes and goes so its hard to criticise players that are trying hard, and maybe the England team are trying hard...unforunately it doesn't look that way on the field. Performances and results aside, body language, vocal encouragement, backing up in the field, aggression and hostility in the face of the opposition can show that a side is alive and still fighting. It appears we are not.....
Complain about this postWhy is it that all of the people watching England play in this World Cup and the years preceeding it can see the problems and yet the Management who decide on our tactics do not. Power plays have been intorduced for that very reason for 'Power play' cricket, England seem to think that being on 8-0 after 8 overs is the foundation needed to win a one day game -it is laughable and upsetting.
A new aggressive approach is required and at least we have 4 years to sort it out!!
Complain about this postwe should sack the whole team and the coach and the review team
do like the Pakistan authorities - disband the whole team and start afresh
also - put real drive and energy and vigour and enthusiasm into school and local community cricket
it should be played all the time by all and then watch the competition and talent within the country
the current players are too well fed!
Flintoff should never have been made captain - the authorites suffer from the English disease of making the best player the captain - it does not work that way - sack the selectors as well.
what a waste of tax payers money and media time
hemant
Complain about this postFrom what I have seen of the games I think there were a number of 'spoilers' in the side; Flintoff being the main culprit. It seems like he couldn't take his medicine although he can take his booze. Stop sulking and grow up
Complain about this postIn addition to cricket journalists, TV pundits are well placed to push for the changes in personnel they wish to see. Nasser Hussein has been quick to promote the attributes of players from his own Essex, Atherton does the same for Lancashire players. Whe you look at England's Test and ODI squads of late, it is no surprise that leading pundits and journos do not include an x-sussex player (Wardy doesn't count)
Complain about this postThere is only one scandal bigger than the ommission of Matt Prior from the England set up and that is the scandal that virtually none of the key cricket opinion formers have been prepared to draw attention to it. Hopefully with Peter Moores weilding greater influence, Prior will start as England keeper this summer and one of the openers for the ODIs.
Just before the last World Cup, James Anderson burst on the scene. Whilst he has not had a disasterous World Cup, England ought to ditch him as he has not improved at all in 4 years. As for Mahmood, he has come in for greater criticism but may come again.
I wonder how many of you who slated Agger's last week for his negativity will be using this opportunity to apologise today.
The batting at the top of the order is defensive, negative & predictable, KP is so arrogant he will always get himself out, Flintoff has lost his technique completely & then you are into the bowlers.
Bowling-wise its been wild with the new ball, no real quile from Monty & no real change in the way the 'death' overs are bowled.
Fielding - So many catches dropped, easy singles & twos taken & a serious lack of athleticism.
Why didnt Vaughan drop out, Flintoff pushed up the order (a slight gamble, but nothing to lose) & another all rounder down the order. This would have allowed the captain to haul Mahmood off when he's having a nightmare (why he's in the team is debatable in itself).
The Top 4 are in the semi finals because when batting they are positive, they field well & their bowlers generally bowl to the situation. i.e. yorkers & slower balls when being attacked consistently. England had no idea how to stop Smith yesterday.
All in all, this has been a disgraceful winter. I hope I never have to sit through another like this in my lifetime.
Lets have bonus related pay, rather than those cushy contracts they have right now. That way, maybe the guys would learn to change their focus from shopping with their wives & drinking all night, to actually attempting to win cricket matches.
Complain about this postI totally agree that its time for Vaughan to step down as captain, why is he immediately put in there anyway, the guy hasn't played for most of the winter and was no way match fit neither physically OR mentally, i mean, if Simon Jones (one of the best bowlers we have seen in a long time) had taken 5 or more wickets in his comeback game, would you have expected him to go to the world cup - no - so why then take Vaughan.
Its time for a change at the top, Vaughan needs to step down now - which his arrogance won't allow him to do - and be replaced by a younger, fitter man and I agree with the Collingwood idea, or, like Nass Hussain suggested on TV yesterday why not try Trescothick as one day captain and any player who gives it the "hang on, you didn't play all winter" crap, well, neither did Vaughan and he lead us to another defeat in the World cup.
Also, i would like to say that in my opinion we need someone who can deal with big names (Flintoff, Petersen mainly) as coach, Fletcher has done wonders with the team but I think its now getting to the stage that he don't know how to deal with players who's ego is as big as their boot sizes. Lets have someone who was a hell raiser himself - like Botham (who wouldn't take the job) or someone of that ilk - as coach
Complain about this postFor all the pain and shame reflected above, I have to say that what I saw from England pretty much reflected what I expected to see.
I offered the comment, after the Ashes, that what England cricket needs to do is copy what the successful sides in Test and One Day matches do. That is a matter way beyond the trivial issues if selections for teams in the respective forms of the game. Above the issue of whether Vaughan, Collingwood or WG Grace should be Captain.
It goes to the very structure of the game, form and duration of domestic competitions, nature of pitches prepared (and upon which players prepare themselves), composition, accountabilities and responsibilities of controlling committees (and individuals), selectors, coaches, support staff, media management et al.
What is very obvious from watching the English team is that none of these elements can at present be right. Whether vested intesests and those entrenched in lucrative positions at present are big enough and game enough to chance opening the system up to review and restructuring will pretty musc determine whether there is a viable English team within four years.
Complain about this postToo little emphasis has been placed on the amount of games that our top cricketers are expected to play. This observation applies equally to all our top sportsmen in whatever sport they play, they will never give of their best if they're tired and jaded, the administrators must reduce the number of games played.
Complain about this postThe English now know how we West Indian supporters feel after our team gets yet another crushing defeat. But don't worry. Your next assignment is against ...... the WI. What better way to rebuild your confidence than against the worst of the test playing teams? Right now I would back Leverock & Co of Bermuda to give the WI ( and England ) a good test! Perhaps it's fitting that WI and England meet in the final super 8 match when they will be playing for "pride".
More seriously, England have some very good players and you should not be quick to make wholesale changes. Attitude and application have to be worked on, and the place of Vaughn in the side must be SERIOUSLY looked at. ( What's become of Trescothick? Has he retired/been injured? ). It is a joy to watch Pieterson bat. He is truly world class. England must be careful that he does not become a negative influence on the team, a la Brian Lara. Plenty talent but full of arrogance and unable to inspire the rest of the team.
I look forward to this summer with the WI touring England. I expect the WI to persist with the same set of jokers and be thoroughly thrashed by an England team that has some good players who know their home conditions.
Complain about this postAggers is spot on as usual. The problems started after we won the ashes. We had a ticker tape bus ride through London. Remind Freddy, i dont think he can remember much of it. We handed out MBEs like sweeties, and that was that, we were the best cricket team that ever lived.
No one got hold of that team and told them that this was only a start. If they wanted to be a good team, they had better start working on their techniques and also, more importantly, their mental attitude.
They have been somewhere between dreadful and ordinairy since 2005. Their ODIs have been awful, apart from a run of 3 matches in Australia. Lets face it we werent that good against the likes of Bangladesh, Ireland etc.
They need to start thinking now about the next world cup. Get rid of Vaughan, get a one day coach in who has some nounce about strategy. Give the captain's arm band to Collingwood. Pick players who want to win and who will work hard to do it.
Finally, take back the MBEs. These awards should only been given when someone has finished their career, then a true assessment can be made to their contribution.
Complain about this postI, like most of you, am totally gutted that England have failed AGAIN at this World Cup. It felt a lot like watching the football team last summer... I just kept waiting and waiting for the side to click and start playing well. It just never happened!
My first instinct is to let the dust settle on the tournament and then let the ECB evaluate the whole situation/setup in a balanced manner.
Knee-jerk reactions are rarely effective and given that we still have another game to play, the situation might yet be complicated further. I am sure if we thrash the WI there will be another series of markedly different England ODI teams proposed by my fellow bloggers. What if Vaughn hits 150 in 80 balls for example?
Ok that was mildly facetious, but the point is that recent results cloud judgement. Evaluation time is almost always a necessary preposition for successful change.
In this case I think a few points should be patently obvious to the ECB:
1.) Michael Vaughn cannot be carried by either the test or ODI team, regardless of his abilities as captain:
Almost everyone (except Vaughn himself) would now admit that he has had enough chances to prove his abilities in ODI’s. Too few runs and almost no match winning performances (including his role as captain), have made his position untenable. He has to go.
2.) Form should be the primary determinant for selection, while inexperience / experience should be given far less weighting:
Form is incredibly important as shown by Collingwood and KP but I think a more important point is to embrace the naivety of youth rather than be scared of it. Case(s) in point: Bopara, Malinga, Fernando, Tait, Ashraful etc… the list could well be longer.
3.) Regardless of who coaches the side going forward, self belief and determination must be instilled in the players that take the field:
If Duncan Fletcher can’t do this then he is no longer the man for the job.
4.) Although taking wickets is important, ODI are normally won through accuracy, pressure and momentum. Wickets only provide the latter:
I really think that we need to readdress the way we approach the bowling. In the case where a team does not a have a string of world class wicket takers (as with England), the best approach is to consider the bowling attack as a single unit. The primary focus should be on building pressure as a unit – including the fielders. At the moment England pick too many bowlers that they see as “wicket takers”. Unfortunately these “wicket takers” regularly release the pressure on opposition batsmen with loose deliveries. On this basis I believe that Fred should open the bowling in order to set the right tone (despite being more of a seamer than a swing bowler).
5.) Freddie is batting far too high in his current role
Painful to admit but his batting has collapsed to a point where he cannot justify batting ahead of Nixon. Scored 77 runs at the world cup in 8 innings. Averaged 2.5 against the test playing nations! He could be used in a pinch hitting role but would need to re-establish his confidence. Possibly better to move him permanently to number 8 and remove all pressure and expectations.
Looking forward, my team would be:
1.) Tres
2.) Strauss
3.) KP
4.) Collingwood (C)
5.) Bopara
6.) Gidman
7.) Prior (w)
8.) Flintoff
9.) Broad
10.) Panesar
11.) Lewis
Batsman heavy but like I said, I would like to see England focus on bowling as a unit. I would open with big Fred and Lewis, Broad first change with Gidman, Bopara and Panesar working the middle overs. Colly and Fred would be my usual choice to close the innings out but it would depend on the amount of turn the wicket was taking.
Complain about this postWhy is no-one pointing out that English fortunes have reversed since the Ashes, when Rod Marsh left to run the Accademy in Dubia - hence Duncan Fletcher was given a clean sheet in team selection and Troy Cooley returned to coach the Aussie bowlers. Since then we are told that there are no new players coming forward, there are issues with team selection and our bowlers cannot bowl in the block hole.
I think this England team needs to get some Aussie grit back into the system somehow.
Complain about this postDear Mr. Agnew ,
I fully agree with your comments but would like to suggest that the thre PRINCIPAL culprits are Fletcher , Vaughan and David Graveney , the chief selector...
All three should be replaced immediately , possibly as early as next weekend so that England can make a fresh start against the West Indies next month and later against India in a positive manner.
All the three named have gone scot-free for their inefficiency and lethargy..
I am also surprised that Mihir Bose , the sports editor has not commented and also BBC 2 Newsnight programme has not staged an in -depth discussion with the SPORTS Experts
Have a nice day
srinivas
Complain about this postI will admit that I am a football person but my husband and sons follow England in cricket all over the world there at the world cup at present.
From an outsiders point of view has anyone considered that one of the biggest problems for England is Flintoff. His so what, who cares, any excuse, we'll do better next time, attitude is begining to grate.
He looks scruffy and sometimes as if someone has had to drag him out of his bed 5 minutes before the bus left the hotel and the whole world should be grateful that he bothered to turn up.
Maybe its time for a bit of tough love for a take your trouble, baggage and ego and go to hell and don't slam the door on your wayout, then come back and chap the door when you grow up and sort yourself out. At present because he knows the totally hopeless bowling situation facing England he can behave anyway he likes and then happly say "So what I'm the only thing you've got so I can do as I like, and you ain't going to do anything about it nah,nah,nah" add to that KP's somewhat inflated ego and that does not make for a happy dressing room which appears to be what's we are seeing on the pitch.
As for replacing Fletcher by all means change the manager, in football he would not have lasted till christmas let alone 10 years, but lets be honest who in their right mind would want to work with that team and the ECB setup at present. It would be career suicide.
Complain about this postcoach T Moody
1. Trescothick
2. Pietersen
3. Strauss
4. Bell
5. Collinwood (capt;)
6. Bopara
7. Nixon
8. Flintoff
9. S. Jones
10. Hoggard
11. Panesar
12. Cook
13. A. Brown
14. Read
15. Plunkett
If only !
Complain about this postI was practically in stitches watching England's pathetic effort at taking on the Proteas yesterday. I don't think I have ever seen such a woefully inept display from a cricket team... and I mean ever. Sure, the Irish may have lost more games than England and be below them in the table, but they will, regardless, leave this World Cup with heads held high, and so they should. They have exceeded everyone's expectations and performed far above themselves to achieve an excellent result, all things considered. England, on the other hand... shocking.
Words cannot describe how bad they have been since the so called 'best ever ashes series' (which when you look at it they only won because a day of the final test was lost to rain); they have lost everything; the CB series was a fluke and irrelevant, and right now the English are the class clowns of world cricket. They deserved the Ashes whitewash, and they deserved this defeat.
As for the reasons behind the problem... well, save from the fact the Flintoff and others would sooner stay up all night drinking than practice, the main cause that I can see is that we just arn't up to the standard of the top four teams. Nowhere close.
Firstly, Michael Vaughan. I am taking nothing away from the man; he is a cracking test batsman and a quality test captain, but one day cricket is most definitely not his game.
The same is true for Ian Bell and Andrew Strauss; they can't play one day cricket - the scoring rate yesterday spoke for itself; it was like they weren't even trying during the first few overs. Pietersen meanwhile is only concerned with playing stupid shots which, fair enough, look impressive when he pulls them off, but which far too often get him out. How can a man who, in over half of his innings gets himself out stupidly be labelled 'worlds #1 batsman in ODIs'?! I guess when the statistics guys decided on that they had forgotten about Ponting, Styris, Hayden, Smith... etc. And then there's Flintoff... Freddie, not counting for the moment his shameful off the pitch antics, has been one of the sorriest stories of recent times. With the bat, he has been, frankly, awful and thoroughly undeserving of his place. Mahmood, meanwhile, is a terrible bowler, awful fielder, and an altogether embarrassing selection.
Another problem for England is that they have no set line-up; it changes every time there's a week in the month; a complete shambles. They have had three wicket-keepers in as many months this year; none of which are a patch on the top four; Gilchrist, Boucher et al, with either the gloves or the bat (such a key role in the current game).
Major changes need to be enforced, including drastic changes with many key players; of the current team, only Collingwood and Panesar are deserving of their places. Also, once a team has been selected, they need to stick with it to allow it to form properly and allow the players to get used to working together. Only then can England even begin to climb out of the chasm they find themselves in. Unfortunately, however, as with the country as a whole, I can't see it happening anytime soon...
Complain about this postWhat I don't understand is the failure to give a chance in this World Cup to a number of players who have come into the one-day side (quite recently) and done pretty well, and then been dropped. Jamie Dalrymple is the prime example - he acquitted himself well in all three disciplines against Pakistan and in the CB series, but was a fringe player in the World Cup, playing only in the first two games. But the same could be said of Michael Yardy, Matt Prior, Jon Lewis (who, admittedly, might have played more had he not been forced to go home), Stuart Broad and Mal Loye. Ed Joyce is also in danger of dropping into this category, despite having been England's fifth highest scorer in the World Cup, scoring almost twice as many runs as the sainted Freddie in two fewer games.
Complain about this postThen there are the players who have done really well in domestic one-day cricket, who haven't even been considered. Dimitri Mascarenhas has been a consistently destructive force for Hampshire with both bat and ball, but his only chance to represent England has been in the Hong Kong Sixes.
Also, why is Alastair Cook not in the team? He's far from being a one-dimensional Test batsman. He has only played two ODIs, in which he scored 39 off 38 balls and 41 off 54 (both times while playing second fiddle to Trescothick in brutal mood against Sri Lanka). That's exactly the sort of scoring rate that England's openers have so dismally failed to deliver in the World Cup.
I agree with those who say that Fletcher should go now. It wouldn't do England any harm to be without a coach while his successor is found, but the longer his negative and defensive approach prevails, the more damage it will do. What is it about English sports teams that attracts dull and unadventurous coaches? Fletcher is in the same mould as Eriksson, McClaren and Andy Robinson, and with about the same degree of success.
Dear Mr. Agnew ,
After the cricketers return to England all players must play in their respective Counties...
The team and Captaincy selection should be made entirely on the basis of their performances in domestic scene...
Of course the selection for the International games must be made early to get the Coach to prepare them for the tests and One-dayers...
In short there must be no freebies
Have a nice day
Complain about this postsrinivas
Like Nasser Hussain said last night, only change if there is a change for the better.
Players who are over 30 should be either discarded now, or examined closely to confirm that they won't be past it by 2011. (Vaughan, Strauss, Nixon and maybe even Collingwood to go now)
I'd go for Fletcher to stay as test Match coach, with Vaughan as captain.
For one day games, get a succesful county(or international) manager, to run the side. They should then aim to pick a team to be experienced by 2010, a year ahead of the next world cup. That would give them a year to fine tune the game plan and then peak for the 2011 world cup. Out of those players a captain should be selected. He doesn't need to be as 'clever' as a test match captain because he's only on the field for 50 overs so the game plan, or plans, can be devised before they go on the field and then put into action. There isn't the time or need for some of the more subtle tactics you get in test matches.
Don't expect too much in the next year or so, everyone should hold their nerve and not panic when we get beat, and to see the bigger picture of 2011.
Complain about this postYesterday's match was very frustrating because the outcome was so predictable.
Our batting is shocking at the moment and a lot of the blame lies at the coach and captain because neither are willing to accept what everyone else knows - our current captain is not a one day number 3. There is only one player in the current side who should be batting at 3 (KP) and yet he has to wait his turn until 3 other players have bored everyone to tears and then got out.
I feel sorry for Andrew Strauss, who has been treated appaulingly by the ECB. After having successfully skippered the side last summer and got all the players behind him and achieved some momentum going into the winter, they basically kick him in the groin and appoint Freddie 'where's the mini bar' as captain. Now I have a lot of respect for Flintoff as a player but given the now well documented antics that have gone one for some time - he is no captain, and i cannot believe anyone associated with the ECB did not know of this.
It is no coincidence that Strauss has not been able to recapture his form since the summer.
Change is needed and we must now look to find 3 players at the top of the innings who can score at a strike rate above 80%.
The frustration is that i personally believe that Trescothick, Strauss (were it not for the above) and Peterson could do that
Complain about this postAggers is correct IMHO when he says that our batting strategy at fault, particularly with our inability to come up with a plan to combat the aggressive tactics of the opposing batting side at the start of the innings. Why, on a pitch which gives pace and trueish bounce with the new ball did we persist in banging the ball in at 85+mph to players who love to pull and cut? Why not take all the pace off the ball and ask them to come after it and consider leaving the powerplays until a little later? Would they be happy to use their feet from ball 1 if they faced M. Panesar? I think this masks a great deal that is wrong with English Professional Cricket, and again INMO County cricket needs a total rethink. Barry Richards who has played a reasonable standard and watched a great deal in is time is surely correct when he said on Sky that English cricket needs 10 teams at the top playing a higher and tougher level of cricket to prepare for Test matches.
It does not matter who you have as Test coach -if the system and the raw material are not up to it, sustained success against the best Test sides is a very long way off, 2005 Ashes notwithstanding, whether 1 or 5 day cricket.
I could go on but I'm sure that won't bring about the changes needed - a big improvement in all levels of cricket in the Uk, raising the level of the best non Test cricket closer to Test standard (1 and 5 day cricket) and the abandonment of the county system. Why continue to use a system that has not worked for decades?
The Aussies did it post 1981 but they had the advantage of their club/grade/state system in place. Their Academy came after that and the rest is horrible history.....
Do we have the will? I would like to think so but what's that I hear - oh yes the unmistakeable sound of a sticking plaster being taken out of it's wrapper...
Turkey of the CWC goes to ITBotham trying to defend Freddie's attempts at sychronised swimming whilst inebriated - before it became public knowledge that HE was partly pesponsible for some of Freddies allnighters downunder: some things never change - suppose that could be the motto for our Windies World cup
Complain about this postTime for Englad selecters to take a more serious approach and select a team based on form rather than past records. Some of the selected players have not been on form going back as far as the Ashes, yet they were still included in the squad.
Complain about this postAsk yourselves the question; - "why are Australia so successful"?
Maybe its time to shake up English Cricket by finding "new" selectors who are prepared to make a stand and select players that genuinely deserve their places through merit.
Personally, I feel that the team lacks the balance, desire and the dynamic approach that is reqiured in the ODI game. We need players with flair at the top of the order, batting in a manner such as Smith, Hayden and the like (eg: trescothick), as well as some world class bowling alternatives, which we simply don't seem to have. The attitude of players needs to improve with an emphasis on sharper fieding and pressure on the batsman. we also need to gain more of a stanglehold on games rather than just sauntering along.
Complain about this postA dismal, patchy often mediocre performance. Time for a change in all three positions: manager, captain and selector(s).
Complain about this postMaybe we should have Scotland and Ireland as regular competitors. Or have them play in the main County championship. They both sparked, showed enthusiasm and b***s.
Agreed last night was a disaster. But, let’s not forget what a similar English team did to my home country - Australia, less than two years ago. They bullied the bullies and were aggressive and decisive at key times in one dayers and tests in 2005 and deservedly won the series and the accolades that followed. Messer’s Flintoff, Strauss (who did bat well last night), Collingwood and Bell need to remember the mentality that brought so much success so recently. A decent English performance in all forms of the game rests between the ears of those key players, a major strategic rethink is not needed to see that.
Complain about this postAgree Aggers change is definitely needed and not just to management. Change to the whole structure of English cricket os desprately needed starting obviously with the counties and absence of a decent feeder system.
The gap between county and international is too vast, counties blow so much development money on outsiders and with 18 teams playing, it is impossible to gauge who is good enough to step up to test level from such a mediocre system.
It is so frustrating to support England when you see the professionalism and pursuit of excellence that other countries apply to their sporting systems compared to the "if it aint broke don’t fix it" "blame the coach, preparation, lilly livered players" mentality that applies here.
Until we reform the feeder system with massive amalgamations of the county game and more direct input from the ECB we will only ever have occasional success and regular heartbreak.
Why oh why do the only people who advocate this regularly have no influence on the English game (Every Australian commentator, every ex English player worth his salt, indeed, everyone but the kipper wearing buffoons at county level)?
Complain about this postPoo doesn't really sum us up... a stronger expletive with the same meaning just might...
I follow English football and Rugby too... um!!!
I'll match the Rugby world cup and Football European Cup with equal disappointment for sure.
Fixed minded sportsmen Hamilton makes F1 history as a rockie, of course as a Sunderland fan for 34 years... no need to mention that nasty Irish chappy who played for Man U... not lost this year in the Championship... 14 wins 3 draws..., now topping the league, stroppy Andy Murray number 10 in the tennis rankings, but the press will have him... and last but not least, did anyone follow the women's rugby 6 nations... grand slamming only conceding points in 1 out of 5 games...
What did we do to build a commonwealth of 76 countries, a third of the world's nations... we can't have exactly played cricket!!!!! Well played ol' boy...
Complain about this postThe thing that separates England from the other sides in the World Cup is their desire to dominate with bat and ball. Even Ireland, whom England defeated, come to the pitch with a purpose and try to force their opponent into an unbreakable headlock. In Ireland's case, they simply don't have the number of professional cricketers necessary to pull it off 100% of the time. A mentor once told me to "observe those who are successful in an endeavor in which you want to be successful, and then adopt their behaviors, mannerisms, and work ethic." This is exactly what is required of England. Do they have the pieces in place to affect this change? Absolutely! Let Bell, and hopefully Trescothick, open the batting with eye toward making the bowlers wish they had stayed in the locker room. Then follow them up with Pieterson, Collingwood, and Flintoff. Allow the number 3-5 batsmen to come to the crease against demoralized bowlers, and a fielding side who already believe it is not their day. It is time to fight fire with fire. That is, if England hopes to become the top one day side in the world. And if they don't, what's the point?
Complain about this postWe've already had Strauss, Flintoff and Vaughan lead the team at various points. And now Collingwood should throw his hat in? Given that Strauss and Vaughan do not deserve a place in the ODI team, I'd bring back Flintoff as captain and hope that captaincy sobers him a bit. If he were to be told, like Ponting was back in the 90s that he's being groomed for long-term captaincy in both forms of the game and that he needs to keep in check some of the things he's used to doing outside of the cricket field, I think England may have a leader for years to come. Instead the ECB, selectors and team management keep going backwards.
Complain about this postWhat about Stuart Broad, why the hell was he not in the team, experience ?? well that counted for nothing in this world cup, why dont we throw caution to the wind like the top teams, the aussies... they are so arrogant, there attidude is we are better than every other team, they go after the top bowlers go after the top batsmen, chirping left right and centre and some of the quotes sometimes leave me with a bit of anger, however that creates tension in teams, and not only are they the best team but they are great at mind games. Why do we english have to be so PC, why cant we have a go at other teams. For example, when the ashes started at lords the english crowd clapped and where brown noseing all the aussie players, and when it was in australia the crowd where taking the mick out of our players, laughing at us when the players dropped a catch and making it really uncomfatable for the english players, sometimes i feel we have no english pride and passion anymore , more making sure we dont offend people and give a 2 sided argument. If you listen to aussie tv, its just aussie commentators not every tom dick and harry that used to play for other countries. I am getting mad now !! I swear i would do so much better than those mugs in charge of the england team at present.
Complain about this postCollingwood? What has he done to merit him a the honur of being a captain. I think too many of the team players think their place is secure. WHAT was bell doing batting first? Im sorry but he hasnt got the talent to be in the top order. The only good thing that came out of this World Cup was the fact that i think Mahmood and Panesar. Bring back Gough!
Who should be captain?
Strauss!
Coach?
Bring in someone who is tough and hard. They dont want a friend, they need a teacher.
Complain about this postI see a lot of complaints and problems here, but few solutions offered. "Let's get rid of the whole England team"; " apart from Pieterson"; "especially Pieterson". May I ask with whom. Let's be honest and look around English cricket at the English players and see if we can find 13 players who are better than the 13 we sent there. Not so easy if you ask me. Odd isn't it that most of the time domestically the complaints are that the sudden spread and popularity of the one-day game is ruining the 'proper' game of cricket and yet we still prove woefully inept when attempting to transfer that to the international stage. I think the answers are much more complicated than merely wiping the slate clean and choosing a new set of fall guys. Let's see how deep the seven man review comittee look at the problem and THEN decide where we need to go.
Complain about this postWithout any doubt it's the time for the English team to re think about their future in both test and one dayers after their demolition in ashes and in the current world cup.I along with many cricket lovers think that it is the time for the fletcher to leave the post and the vaughan to resign from the post of captaincy.In my view it's the high time for collingwood to take the captaincy and tom moody to take the coaching role of the English team.Also they should give the chance for the young english cricketers to expose their talent,especially cook can deliver his potential in the one day games also along with broad in bowling attack.Hey harminson come and join the one dayers also.English cricket needs your experience and talent.Strauss should come to its original form as quick as possible because after some months Indian cricket team will come to England to haunt them as they take this series as an answer to their critics after their poor World cup display.At last in my view if they can get into its original form as quick as possible,they can be a good team once again.
Complain about this postWas surprised that we're not celebrating.
Yes we were hammered by the (going into the tournament) number one side, but I thought we were 7th in the world rankings and are likely to finish either 5th or 6th at the world cup. Surely england have played beyond themselves ;-)
excuse enough to keep vaughan and fletcher no doubt... obviously that doesnt address why we were only 7th in the world....
Complain about this postWhat can we say, like I stated after the last one day series from Australia there is definately a need to move forward.
As Aggers has stated the whole England set up needs a review and quick. Michael Vaughan is a great servent to English Cricket but returning from a longterm injury and leading your country straight away is not the way forward. Michael is a great Test player but when we come to ODIs it is not his game.
We have a fantastic Coach in Duncan but again there is a time in life when we need to move on and a new young enthusiastic coach is the answer. The likes of Ian Botham, Tom Moody, Alec Stewart and Nick Knight.
I believe someone like Collingwood or even Allistar Cook would be ideal as captain. As previously stated in February that the team needs youth and experience with alot of fire power at the top of the order. Our bowling has been below average with no line and length and no variation.
ODI SQUAD For 2007/08
M. Trescothick
J. Batty (Wkt)
K. Pietresen
I. Bell
P. Collingwood
R. Bopara
A. Loudon
A. Flintoff
S. Jones
S. Broad
M. Panesar
RESERVES:
Complain about this postS. Davis (Wkt)
A. Cook
M. Powell
O. Shah
E. Joyce
J. Dalrymple
A. Rashid
L. Plunkett
G. Onions
A. Davies
Another comment,
What's all this rubbish about Flintoff being a world class allrounder??
Kallis, Symonds, Oram, Collingwood, Jayasuriya, even Brad Hogg are better allrounders than Flintoff and they are just a few...he just believes his own hype...one good ashes series and wow look at me
Vaughan may be an ok test bat but again he is living on the back of one good tour in Ozz the last time England were hammered by the Ozzlanders...
It's old it's boring and many have said it, the whole England management setup is antiquated and incredibly arrogant.......
Some of these players need to think, no doubt a new and novel experience for many of them.....
Complain about this postIs it not time that the ECB recognised that test & one day cricket are different beasts and each require a different approach.
Complain about this postWhy not have TWO coaches, to work together?
Follow my argument and have TWO captains.
I now that ECB selectors will resign en masse at this suggestion....Might not be a toal loss.....
I don't see why there is a difficulty in having different players for different aspects of the game. No one expects a sprinter to run long or middle distance races. Some people are good at both types of the game but some are not. Alastair Cook who I have always rated and who has been mentioned as a possible future england quite rightly does not make the one day team because he is not so good at the short form of the game. Darren Maddy, a few years ago, would have been a better one day player than his mediocre test record, and i am a leicestershire supporter. England because of our large pool of county players have more potential internationals than many countries so surely we could pick our best players for every form of the game
Complain about this postWhat were Vaughan and bell thinking in not playing a stroke for the first two overs? Did anyone tell them it was a 50 over match as opposed to a test match? the rest of the team were equally as gutless. The time has come to select completely different managers for Test and One day cricket. the approach needed for both is not the same. I don't think think England should jettison Duncan Fletcher completely and too quickly. Remember the comical problems the FA had when they announced Sven was going and in finding his successor (look at their choice too?)? Find a replacement for the one day team this summer. Let Fletcher carry on with the test team where he has been relatively successful. Knne-jerk reactions will make things even worse. just realise that one day and test cricket are different ball games!
Complain about this postDoesn't the omission of Mal Loye look ridiculous now. He wasn't taken as we wanted sound starts!
Complain about this postHe would have used the same number of overs, but probably tripled the score!
Sadly I am old enough to remember the Boycott slumber in the final against the West Indies. The Bell/Vaughan start was even worse.
During the winter Test series and even more so in the World Cup we have missed Trescothick, whose ability to keep the scoreboard moving puts pressure on the bowlers. When batsmen become becalmed the bowlers are under no pressure at all.
In the absence of Tres, Mal Loye would have at least given the bowlers somerthing to worry about; his omission was puzzling! The somulent and mis-firing Joyce & Vaughan posed no threat at all.
Complain about this postThe performance was an utter shambles against a spirited and well led but not particulary strong SA side. As an England supporter, yesterday really pushed loyalty to the limit.
Fletcher should do the decent thing and step aside now. He's done an impressive job overall since taking over the side in 1999, but the quality of performances have been rapidly declining. New personnel with new ideas are clearly needed, preferably from someone who is globally successful (Dav Whatmore, Tom Moody) bit still retains a good working knowledge of our domestic talent pool.
Whilst it is easy and obvious to say that Michael Vaughan should be dropped, you have to ask who is the obvious replacement? Freddy has no form and looks like he's had enough of carrying an average team. Collingwood has no captaincy experience. Strauss simply lacks the ability to perform at this level. His record for England in all forms of the game has been mediocre at best after an initial successful first 12 months playing for England.
Ian Bell is at best a test match number 6 (the only place where he has scored his runs) and should never have been batting in an international One Day team's top 3. Owais Shah is a natural replacement, who was inexplicably dropped after the Pakistan tour despite batting with spirit and maturity.
Saj, whilst undoubtedly trying hard, has not progressed since coming on the scene last May and is just not up to scratch. Plunkett, whilst being a shade expensive, is a more natural wicket taker and seems to want to learn and improve. And he can hold a bat.
Nixon is nothing but hot air behind the stumps. There is a difference between being a chirpy motivator and a complete idiot. Luke Sutton is a better keeper, better batsmen and would not be picked solely upon having a 'strong personality' like Nixon. Alternatively try James Foster at Essex if age is an issue for Sutton.
Jimmy Anderson seems more concerned with cultivating his new 'hard man' image of sledging the opposing batsmen rather than bowling consistently. Unless he gets his act togther in the big games, Stuart Broad would do no worse.
It is no real secret that you cannot successfully have stodgy blockers in your top 3 if you are going to get the innings off to a strong start. There has been no plan on how to tackle the first crucial 15 overs. Ian bell's 31 off 74 balls against Ireland typified that the top 3 have been batting for their own form and not for the good of the team, thus putting pressure on positions 4 and 5. Replacements to open could include bringing back Trescothick and Mal Loye for attacking variety or Alistair Cook (remember him?) as an innings builder.
It's a real shame, but inless radical coaching and playing personnel changes are made quickly, we will retain our position of being the laughing stock of international one day cricket. You know you are in trouble when even some Aussies are feeling sorry for you...
Complain about this postGeoffrey Boycott predicted all of this back in October 2006 in his Telegraph article: "Morgan may think Fletcher has a job for life, but that is just a recipe for stagnation. The time to move on is now. The dressing room needs some new personnel with fresh ideas and the ability to stimulate the players. When England have got knocked out of this tournament, struggled in the Ashes and gone out of the World Cup, I'll be telling people: "You read it here first."
Make Geoffrey the new England Director of Cricket (dispense with the chairman of selectors), he should be able to turn things around with his clear thinking. But I don't think the ECB have the balls or intelligence to do anything of the sort.
Complain about this postI agree with most of what Aggers has said about the reality of English cricket now being exposed. This summer is England's chance to build and prepare for the future - Fletcher needs to declare his resignation and finish by the end of the season - Vaughan needs to do what is right and just concentrate on tests he should retire from ODIs - if both of these changes are not going to happen the English cricket team is going know where. The so called Ashes review will just seem a waste of time - the top four in the super 8s are there on quality and depth throughout their XIs - something England lack.
Complain about this postIn 2007 we are blaming the MBE's and trip round London in 2005 for our cricketing failure.
Maybe in the future we'll appreciate that we rewarded the players who achieved international success for England in a sporting capacity.
History does already and will continue to show that doesn't happen very often.
We are not winners.
Complain about this postVaughan certainly has to go, there can hardly be any question of that.
A few years ago Australia dropped from its one day team a player (and captain) of no less callibre than Steve Waugh after australia didnt get into a domestic one day final. This was a player that won an australia a world cup mostly off his own bat (and through his uncompromising captaincy) a few years earlier!!! this is the kind of results-driven, ruthless kind of decision making England has to employ, and has thus far avoided to its great detriment.
culturally, there is a big problem with the england team and their 'bubble'. i heard that jones recently said that he doesnt have to prove his ability, just his fitness. when shane warne and mcgrath were injured for long periods they would say they 'werent pass their best'/'still improving' etc. this is a decisive difference. jones doesnt 'deserve' to be there - he is there to help england get results, and if he cant guarantee that, someone else that has the perfomances on the board should be brought in.
in international cricket, honoring your country by playing to the highest standands should come first. excuses, 'debts', favouritism, sentimentalism and 'loyatly' should not compromise this.
Complain about this postSimply put England are in a bit of a hole and one that hopefully will not but patched over by (what should be) an easy series win over the west indies.
When you look at an ideal england XI
Trescothick/ Struass, Cook, Bell, Peiterson, Collingwood, Flintoff, KEEPER, Jones, Hoggard, Harmison, Panesar - where is the place for Vaughan?
Do you sacrifice cook, bell, collingwood to carry vaughan who lets be honest seems to have lost the ability to score runs; somthing essential taking into account englands long test tail and a lineup that includes just 5 outright batsmen.
Yes I think we need a fresh approach, it seems to me Bell, Vaughan, Joyce, Strauss, Mahmood arent quite cut out for one day cricket unless they revolusionise thier attitude toward it. I mean the balance is wrong, a talent like Bopara at 7? Your two best bastmen at 4 and 5. Look at australia Ponting, Hayden, Gilly are 1.2.3 the best bastmen get the first look in. Would you feel so unsure of England if they had lined up;
Peiterson, Collingwood, Bopara, Flintoff, Bell, Vaughan, Nixon in the world cup?
Bell enjoys it down the order. This gives england an explosive impetus with Nixon to be promoted should the situation require it, why this didnt happen to me is madness. The persistence with mahmood and the opening 3 was in the end a farce.
Complain about this postThere is no disputing that the way England lost to South Africa on Tuesday was demoralising, and illustrated a clear gulf between the two sides. I am however of the view that it is not personel that need to be changed, but systems and philosophies to the OD game.
Duncan Fletcher has been a bastion of brilliance for the game of cricket in England since his arrival as national coach. Those who believe otherwise need to go back to watching football, and stop talking about cricket as though it only started in Edgbaston in the summer of 2005.
What needs to be looked at is the schedule of cricket England has been subjected to since winning the Ashes. Its been frantic. We have been relying on the formula of success from the Ashes in 2005. There has been no time to reflect, compose and analyse since then and that is wrong. Together with that there have been injuries to big name players, the loss of big name coaches to the 'otherside', as well as long hard tours to the sub-continent. All of this in preparation for the 2006/2007 Ashes, leading to the now present World Cup. This is no preparation for anything. There has been no focus for the national side, and with that the weakest part of their game; ODI, have suffered. This is not Duncan Fletchers fault. It is the ECB's.
Look at Australia since they lost the Ashes? They did not change their coach? No. Did they ditch their captain. No. They didnt change anything. Instead they composed themselves, reflected on what went wrong through a extensive period of analysing, and put in motion the next 2 year. The road map to winning the Ashes back, and win the World Cup. Has it worked for them? Yes, and with pretty devastating results!!
The only thing that head chopping does in such circumstances is cause unrest, and that is not what is needed for the England camp at all. We need the wheels in motion to move forward, with 1 of the best national coaches at the helm; Duncan Fletcher.
England may finish the World Cup in 5th position which is not brilliant, but what we would have expected 6 months ago, if not better. Winning the Commonwealth Series only acted as a public inflater of optimism, and not a true yardstick of where England were. Did we lose to Ireland like one of the favourites Pakistan?No. Did we lose to Bangledesh like India and South Africa, as well as New Zealand before the tournament? No. We laboured past them, but never lost.
There is no disputing England has some very fine quality in its playing ranks. They simply did not fire. Why? Probably because they need to go home and recharge.
Complain about this postAll this namedropping and the like is not going to chage anything. The facts are that England entered the CWC with a flawed strategy. When that strategy clearly wasn't working, they persisted with it. In all sports if something isn't working you change it. KP got flak for selfishness but the reality is that batting in ODIs requires a RR of a ru a ball. That implies that risks need to be taken. The English batting strategy was risk averse. Where there is risk, lies reward and as a result England missed out. Who should be captain/coach is not the issue, it's how do we win? It doesn't matter who coach/captain is, as long as it's not a 'safe pair of hands', because that's not what England need right now. The big diff between 2005 and 2007 is that England innovated and played positively back then. Now they are in their shell.
Complain about this postQuality analysis as ever, Aggers.
Did you work all that out at dinner at The Cliff last Thursday? I was sat at the table next to you.
Personally, I'd go for the horses for courses approach - the best one-day players for the ODI squad and the best test players for the test squad. The games are different enough to justify this, especially as we aren't blessed with as many players of all-round class as, say, Australia.
KP has class, but he can't win (or lose) on his own. Freddie seems uncomfortable at the crease at the moment, always reaching for the ball and consequently mis-timing it (apart from that glorious six over the pavillion angainst the 'Desh). The bowlers seem to try too much to do too many different things. For much of the time the only fizz in the field seems to come from Colly and the Badger.
I like Bob Willis' approach. Look at everyone's birth certificate and drop those who will be too old by the next CWC. Start building now. Take the early losses in the belief that you are building a team - we can't do much worse.
And will someone please phone Tom Moody and offer him lots of money to be our coach, and someone else make Troy Cooley an offer he can't refuse when his gig is up with the Aussies?
Now I've got to explain all this to some American colleagues.
Pip pip from the Colonies
Complain about this postAggers, i asked a question via email during the winter ashes when it became apparent that Vaughan intended to return to the team as aplaying captain rather earlier than expected, it was ' do you agree with me that MV is not a one day cricketer and that further to that, his inclusion in an England one day eleven will be to the detriment of the team?'. Now if i can see it from my armchair why cant any of crickets so called intelligense at the ECB like Graveney and the like. Grave eee train more like!
Complain about this postOk, so England lost a cricket match. To South Africa, probably the second best team in the world.
Can someone explain to me what is "chastening, devastating and embarassing" about that?
Part of the reason that other countries national teams regularly beat ours is that their sides are not placed under the stifling weight of expectation that is unfairly heaped on ours, nor are they so afraid of a press and public that gleefully pounces on any loss, immediately calling for heads to roll.
Losing is nothing to be ashamed of. It is an entirely necessary stepping stone on the way to winning next time. Losing and then turning on your own team rather than accepting that they had a good go and asking how we can do better next time - now that is something that really should be a cause of national shame.
Complain about this postAs far as i'm concerned duncan fletcher should stay as the coach of englands test match team but where odi's are concerned he should be quikly replaced with absolutely no hesitation his odi coaching is up to scratch and need replacing. But not just that the ecb should get rid of of michael vaughn and he should have no future part to play in englands odi team as his place is simply undeserved. But in my opinion englands batting in this world cup has been a comp-lete and utter shambles ian bell and kp ocassionly are the only two batsman two have made any contributuion at all freddie's bowling has been good but his batting has been simply apauling paul nixon has been average with both gloves and the bat. But in my view i think england altogether have been mediocre at this years world cup and were deservedly trounced by the south africans vaughn and flether should have no more part to play in the odi game and i believe that the new odi coach should be tom moody and the new skipper would be wise to be paul collingwood or andrew strauss finally i would like to talk about kp i beleive at his best he is truly unstopable but he is not a team player he should bat more for the team not himself thats not a criticsm but just a fair point i have obsereved also i finally believ that sajid mahmood should be replaced by liam plunkett a better swing bowler and more accurate bowler and also marcus tresacothick bak
england team
trescothick
Complain about this poststrauss(C)
bell
pietersen
collingwood(C) (C) possible captain
freddie
bopara
chris read
plunkett
anderson
panesar
It happens time and time again, The top order do nothing leaving KP to do it all, sometimes he can get something out of it, but many times like vs SA, it means he's trying to up the tempo too early in his innings. I'm surprised we never took Mal Loye.
Complain about this postSpot on with the fact Collingwood needs to replace Vaughan as captain and Fletcher needs stand down.
Flintoff was also a huge disappointment, since the Ashes victory in 2005 he has either been injured or mediocre whilst playing. I believe the success he had during the famous Ashes win has gone to his head. He should have been sent home after his embarrassing antics.
KP is not a team player as a few have mentioned already. He's a playboy player who just wants to grab the headlines. No doubting his ability, but if he put as much effort into playing as a team member as he did with his pathetic hair styles he would be worthy of the tag " World class ".
Mahmood and Anderson are far too erratic to be even considered as one day players, an embarrassment if i'm honest.
Ed Joyce was a waste of time and Ian Bell is not good enough to bat so high up the order in the one day code. Strauss was also out of his depth when played.
We only came close to frightening Sri Lanka whilst playing the top teams. Even then we should never have found ourselves in that situation. Bopra and Nixon played well to give us a sniff but in all honesty a lot of it was down to Sri Lanka believing the game was long over. We didn't look at all impressive beating the lesser teams.
A lot of work needs to be done and a lot of soul searching by our better players before we can even think about clawing our way back into the elite group of one day teams.
Complain about this postI believe that there is even a more serious and deeply rooted issue here. The game of cricket is virtually disappearing as an interest and a skill among the new UK generations. It's a shame that this should happen where the game was invented. The players of tomorrow will come from the generations of today and it is high time that the government took corrective steps to aggressively promote the game of cricket among youngsters in schools and colleges. There are examples to be taken from countries like India where national televisions interrupt their normal broadcast to show a cricket match; compare that to UK you either buy an expensive sky package or settle for a mere 45 minutes of highlights at 23.30 hrs, if at all.
Complain about this postWill the ECB listen??
With a seven man panel being set up to review England's performance in the Ashes and World Cup, will any recommendations be listened to? Catergorically - NO!
If those recommendations are the slightest bit radical then there is NO chance of change. They haven't in the past and they will not this time.
There are too many vested interests by the country chairmen in ensuring THEIR counties come in front of the country and with 3 years of the BSKYB deal still to run, they will not do anything that will take away their ability to access money from ECB.
The review panel's recommendations will eventually be swept under the carpet 6 months down the road and nothing will change - just like normal!!! - ask the journalists?
It's great to think that change will happen, but don't hold your breath!
Complain about this postKeith
The problem is we pamper our cricketers too much. We give them the option to "retire from one day cricket". Whats that all about. If they don't want to play one day games, then in my opinion they should not be permitted to play for England at all. Our bowling attack in this world cup has been nothing more than village green standard. Our best bowlers were no where to be seen because they can't be bothered to represent their country at one dat cricket and are allowed to do this. If Hoggard and Harmison had been playing, it may have been a different story.
Heads have to roll. English cricket is heading back to the wilderness years of the 90's after this pathetic display by a bunch of cricketers who looked, from their body language that they didn't really want to be there?
Complain about this postI am pleased with the South Africa result so it focuses minds on the Ashes problem as well as the one day game. I suggest re look at central contracts, have the likes of Harmison, Jones etc. earned they salaries. We hear them talk of long tours, too much cricket, how do they think the normal working man and woman cope. Get real if you bowl five wides in an over or as wide as Harmison first ball in the test in Australia, don`t pretend you are even approaching world class.
Complain about this postThanks.
It is a brutal fact, which most business leaders know, that change is easiest after a crisis. I would be very surprised if anyone in the England camp expects the status quo to remain because preserving the status quo just prolongs the crisis.
Complain about this postOf course it's tempting to hang on, hoping for a high point to bow out on, and Fletcher shouldn't be made into a scapegoat, but a change now must be inevitable. The ECB needs to put Fletcher out to grass and find a new hand for the helm. It might be necessary to write off the summer's tours but cricket must avoid the mistakes the RFU made over Andy Robinson in hanging on untill it is too late. Four years is not that long in cricket (though four hours can seem like an eternity, as I found out yesterday) and there are the Ashes to think about in the meantime. Bring in the new, let the team (whoever they are) rally behind him, grit our teeth over the summer and we might just stand a chance next time.
England's approach to ODI's looks naive, at best. The days are long gone when you can spend the first 10 overs 'playing yourselves in'. This is clearly the fault of the Coach, and I'm afraid to say, the captain. Fletcher and Vaughn must go, as must Graveney.
Complain about this postNow it's over we can forget it and concentrate on watching lots of foreigners doing well in the County cricket they all claim to despise.
Complain about this postI do not think that the World Cup has been too long. It may have been for the players, but I always enjoy TMS. It is a welcome change from the usual programmes.
Complain about this postI am glad to hear that Gravy is back, but I wish there was less canned music and more trumpeters and jazz bands.
Regards, D.J.Hutson
Truth be told, we haven't moved with the times in one-day cricket.
I think Fletcher has done great and isn't solely responsible for a poor World Cup, but he needs to leave, otherwise people will forget the good work that he's done.
I don't think it's in the English mentality to be daring at the start of an innings so this will be a big sea change and one which won't be solved by excluding Fletcher & Vaughan. However, it has to be done, otherwise it will only be a matter of time before the likes of Kenya & Bangladesh beat us on a regular basis in one day cricket. After all, who would have thought that Sri Lanka would beat us regularly 20 years ago?
Another thing. We need to be serious about on-day cricket if we are to make the changes needed, otherwise there is no point in turning up
Complain about this post!
Spot On Aggers. Although I fear the slowly churning wheels of English Cricket administration will fail to produce the changes necessary. Whilst everybody it seems knows what is needed, just like the changes to the batting order during the World Cup, little (if anything) will be done. When will English Cricket snap out of the glories of 2005 and rekindle the workmanlike and detemined performances that got us to those heady heights ? Fresh approach and, where necessary, new faces are a must if fortunes are to change.
Complain about this postJust to open a bit of a debate about the depth of the English game (or lack of).... here's an alternative one day line up for the WC.... (in batting order)
Trescothick
Flintoff
KP
Adams
Collingwood
Maddy
Chapple
Davis (wk)
Cork
Gough
Panesar
Was almost tempted to put Harmison in at No.2 based on the fact that if he'd played against SA yesterday we'd at least have got 200.
You build for the future after, not before or during.
Complain about this postHere here Aggers, you are as concise as ever. The team needs to work out how to play each period of the game and then learn to adapt to the situation after that. The Top order starts at 3 which is just not good enough. The powerplays are to be exploited by the batters, not shyed away from.
as for the bowling......a miracle is needed and quickly. Panesar chips in ok but needs to seriously mix up his pace - too much of the same thing over after over. Mahmood.....well......some say erratic, i say just not good enough! It's a long journey to the next world cup, i just hope that the planning for a brighter future starts now and starts with a new look ECB - it is broke, please please please fix it!
Complain about this postI could not have been less surprised with fans like Austin and Kate living under the shadows of KP's performance which helps them bask in the faulty glory of KP's own accomplishments. But Tony amazes me the most. Without offering a concrete reasoning he castigates me as a prejudised person.
Well at least thanks to Nils who agrees with me...and that gives me a sense of hope that English cricket future may have some hope with us raising voice which clearly goes against the popular vote.
I'm not against KP or his performance....what I'm concerned about is that he and the media allows the english team to become lethargic....to the extent that they loose a sense of being a team....no one man wonder can elevate the game to the heights we really wish our team to achieve and for that ...at times....tough decisions need to be made....I hope more people realize it ....and soon...
Complain about this postAAAHHH
We have a major issue as a result of a poor coach, a poor captain, and a poor team. I believe our one day team AND our test team should look something like:
Trescothick
Strauss
Cook
Petersen
Bell
Collingwood
Read
Harmison
Hoggard
S. Jones
Panesar
Complain about this postHoggard has said that Fletcher is the best coach in the world and should stay on for the foeseeable future. If Fletcher is the best coach, God help England. He could always prove himself by leading Ireland to the next World Cup final.
It is only natural that Hoggard would add his support, after all, a new coach might not select him for England in the future.
Complain about this postAgger’s is correct in that England need to look at where they are going wrong in the one day format of the game - not only at international level but down right through the whole cricket structure in the UK.
But England are in a much better position than the West Indies, and all England fans must hold on to this and reflect. As a West Indian fan, I can't see what hope we have for the up coming tour of the England & beyond. The amount of Caribbean cricketers plying their trade in the County game just show at the lack of quality in the West Indies and the strength & depth of the Aussies.
Complain about this postSo you can all call for Fletcher & Vaughan's heads, but at least you aren't losing the one of games greatest batsmen's - and he might not even tour England!
Agreed for the most part with Agers comments- but not sure if Strauss can be accussed of calmly defending the new ball against South Africa- indeed, if i'm not wrong he was scoring at more than a run a ball at the beginning of his innings despite the fact that wickets were falling all around him.
Complain about this postI do think that panic is not the answer. However I do think Duncan Fletcher has had his time as coach. He has done a fantastic job over 7 years, but now a change is needed. I would get Tom Moody in, knowledge of the English game and international experience.
Personally I would keep Vaughan as captain, in both forms of the game, really only because there isnt another long term candidate just yet.
As far as the team is concerned, here is my 11 for the first one day match in the summer
Pieterson
Cook
Bell
Vaughan
Collingwood
Flintoff
Prior
Plunkett
Broad
Anderson
Panesar
Have KP go in as a pinch hitter. When we have done it in the past as a team, we have relied on a weak batsman. Australia send Gilchrist in, hardly a weak player, Jayasuriya, Smith none of those are weak players. Be agressive at the start, stop pushing footing around.
Not sure about the keeper yet, but I think we need a capable batsman, giving the inexperience or weakness of the tail. Prior is the pick for now, with a close eye being kept on Davies at Worcester. Maybe stick James Foster in for the tests, and if he works stick with him. I am not ready to write Geraint Jones off yet, he has played some big innings in the past, but I think he needs to play for Kent and get some runs.
Complain about this postGood stuff Aggers but will the ECB listen? Complete toilet cricket by England. If Saj Mahmood plays again... well, I don't need to say it. KP gifts his wicket a bit too often to be World's #1. And 'Super Fred' has sadly become 'special fred'. It may get better but we need the ugly stick. The Aussie coach is out of a job in a fortnight isn't he? Fletcher's on £300k... get Sven in.
Complain about this postQuite right, England’s captain courageous (Vaughan) should definitely be replaced by Collingwood.
If I was Vaughan, I resign due to embarrassed from poor, poor performances. He must see that that’s for the greater good of England.
Complain about this postin response to mj post about kevin pietersen the man is talking absolute rubbish.the reason i say this is that what has been quite possibly the most humilating six monthes in english cricket history kevin pietersen has been one of the few players that can hold his head up high (along with collingwood panaser and hoggard) and to blame pietersen is not only unfair but totally unfounded The reason pietersen gets the blame is because he is an easy target he makes runs and then is prone to getting out but what should be remembered is without pietersen we would be even more of an embaressment than we already are and he is a world class player quite possibly the only one within the current team and anyone criticising him should look at the rest of the team first.
Complain about this postWell said! England's cricketers and coach need to pay more attention to this kind of article, since they do not appear to react to them positively on the field, in the same way as the Aussies do. Look how the Australian press crucified their players after the 2005 Ashes loss, and then again after the recent defeats to England and New Zealand, before the World Cup. And now Australia is back on track for a third World Cup, when England cannot even win an ICC trophy final at home!
Complain about this postThey need to look at Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Ireland to get some passion and enthusiasm for the game again, and probably get a more aggressive coach too!
Either way, I expect, unfortunately, England to finish their World Cup against the West Indies with a whimper, because they really do not know how to win one day cricket matches against the top cricket sides, and really need a good dose of negative motivation and press to start the rebuilding process.
Do not despair. England will beat the second rate West Indies during this summer test series, All the laurels will be showered on this team and their super duper coach, Books will be written, may be some MBEs will be awarded, and then lo behold, Things will be same and normal again,- from a severe thubbing in forthcoming ashes to all the way to next world cup in 2011.
Cheers.
Complain about this postI have not seen a poorer opening stand in cricket than the one played by England recently.
Complain about this post7 runs in 6 overs plus, what was they thinking about, going home I suppose.I said in my last email that Vaughn and Bell shouldn't be there in the team.England have to make big changes and soon before Sri Lanka arrive.
Yeah sure Craig, the CB series was certaintly humiliating.....you'r spot on mate!
It becomes pointless at times to drive my arguments home that KP's wonders alone aren't gonna fetch English cricket what's required of a "team." More than that....its his attitude that creates huge issues.....others may just find hidden behind KP's arrogant personality and may not have any reason to believe that their performance will be counted by the media even if they tried.....Do you get it now?
Complain about this postI dont see why the bowling department has to be different from the Test side. Bowlers who take wickets will naturally keep the run rate down.
Complain about this postYou can't carry players so Vaughn has to go, Bell can stay if he is able to bowl a couple of overs, and Flintoff is at least one too high unless he's going to open. we have a tendency to get real sentimental about players and teams and end up looking at past performances rather than the here and now. Its obvious we have nothing to lose so let's clear shop and give some new guys a try this summer. they can't do any worse.
Please remember that (excluding Bangladesh) England have not beaten a Test nation at a World Cup since 1992!
I am on a different time zone from most contributors so perhaps someone could bring me up to date with the news.
Graveney, Vaughan and Fletcher. They are not still there, are they?
Complain about this postPaul Collingwood as the one day Captain!!!!!
I have been saying this for a while now. In my opinion he has been one of the few players that appears to have a genuine passion for the game even when England were on the ropes, he shows genuine emotion for the game and is not afraid to let others in the team know when he does not think they are performing as well as they should.
I think he would make a solid Captain for the one day side, I only hope if he is given the chance, the added pressure does not affect his game as it did Freddies.
Complain about this postWhy is mj focusing on Pieterson's arrogance as the source of England's demise? He is one of the few positive things about English cricket. Pieterson can afford to be arrogant because he is a genuine talent. Contrast that with the others who fail relentlessly and come out with feeble excuses - like we're a talented team but not doing it. Become a winning team over a long period of time and then start telling yourself you're talented.
Complain about this postI find it embarrassing that England won the Ashes and got victory parades and national applause. Australia have been doing that for years - year after year.
The time is up for the management to go and also Vaughan. We've hit another low which means that this is a good time for a fresh start. Please, lets not keep stumbling ahead with this group of over-rated losers.
A measure of the English failure to perform at this World Cup is that they were so abject in defeat and knocked two Test Teams out of the competition on Tuesday.
Complain about this postI think one thing that can be done is that England should stop planning for future events and just try to win games now. No importance is ever given to one day games because they are just seen as a stepping stone to the world cup. England should just try to win every game with their best side available, try to develop a winning habit and not worry that a player may not be around in 4 years time. He can be replaced within that time period. I see no harm, for example in keeping Nixon going but I think Panesar needs to sit out until he is a better bowler. I think he's great, but he'st not a good enough spin bowler to justify his batting. I think Blackwell or Giles (both unavailable) would have not done much worse with the ball and would have chipped in with some runs. \
For test cricket. I do not doubt for a second that Panesar should be included.
Complain about this postLooking at the final four for the world cup, and their performances over the last few years, the lessons are there to be learned.
Complain about this postAll have the same captain as the test team.
All have more or less the same team personnel as the test team.
All play with a different order and structure.
From Ghilchrist opening the battin for Australia the theme is the same, the game, with power-plays has evolved so that it is not in the final 10-15 overs that the big stokes are played, it is in the power plays AND the final ten overs. Just look at the scores bieng posted since the power-plays came in.
'Death' bowlers - capable of firing in fast, straight (or in-swinging) yorkers to cur down the runs in the final overs are now needed in the power-plays too.
Above all, the strike batsmen are sent in early, during the power-plays, free from all shackles - 'have fun', 'express yourself', 'go for your shots. Can anyone honestly see Duncan Fletcher telling a player to 'have fun'??
Test opening batsmen find themselves going in at 6,7,8, where they can steady the ship if there has been a collapse, not striving to play out of character and causing their own downfall as a result. Put the hitters where there is an opportunity to hit, batsmen where they may be needed to bat, test-style, and teach (and insist on) 'death' bowling in the powerplays.
One-day cricket is a different game - but that doesn't mean you need a different set of players to play it.
All this talk of Collingwood????
Strauss did an excellent job as captain last summer - and that was without Flintoff and Vaughan!!
I do find the ex-players turned comentators a bit fickle at times - look at how split they were about the England Captaincy prior to the Ashes tour? Flintoff or Strauss???
It was THAT close that to support their claims for Flntoff it was suggested he gets the best out of Harmison!
Well THAT clearly worked!!!
So now is time for Strauss - his form MAY be a bit of a worry at this present moment - but form is temporary but CLASS is permenent!
Complain about this postMy ODI team/squad for the summer would be:
1. Trescothick (C)
2. Cook
3. KP
4. Colly
5. Bopara
6. Bell
7. Davies
8. Flintoff
9. G. Batty
10. Broad
11. Anderson
12. Yardy
13. Prior
14. Plunkett
15. Onions
16. Shah
With a test XI of:
Vaughan (C)
Complain about this postTrescothick
Cook
Bell
KP
Collingwood
Flintoff
Davies
Panesar
Hoggard
Simon Jones
Well said Aggers, Fletcher has to go. His motivational skills have always been questionable - he is so laid back he is horizontal! Aside from that it requires a 'new broom' to sweep away the feeling of failure that the team obiously have. Vaughn has been out of form in the one day game for around 3 years!! why on earth he is still there? The rest of the team must be thinking he is a liability - not a view that inspires people. Also Graveney and Miller must be replaced. The cosy old school tie network will not however allow this. Rewarding failure is becoming an British trait and unfortunately this is bringing the sporting successes down.
Complain about this postIn no particular order can I make these observations.
1. Do others see parrallels between Clive Woodward's catastrophic Lion's rugby tour to NZ and the last Ashes debacle. A coach wedded to a number of players that had served him so well in the past but had peaked and were now on a downward trend. Loyalty is admirable but becomes blind obduracy when it flies in the face of the facts.
2. If the rot set in last winter the selection for and during the CWC suggested chaos not order ruled. Having won the CBS against expectations the coach and selectors set about changing a winning side, all in the name of strengthening it.
3. My pinnacle as a cricketer was as a decent club player but even at that level you knew that no matter what the form of the game you wanted opening bowlers who knew where their radar was, in other words they bowled in places you could set a field to. So having dumped Plunkett because apparently he was innocuous after 10 overs we get saddled with Saj. The same goes for Jon Lewis, he may rarely get it above 80 mph and is more suited to a green top in April but at least he would never have gone for in excess of 2 runs a ball.
4. Sad to say because he was one of the most talented bats of his generation but there was general raising of eyebrows on the circuit when Fletch announced the new batting coach was Matt Maynard. Lest we forget he was still playing when he retired and went straight into the job with no prior coaching experience.
5. Cast minds back to the unfortunate departure of Rod Marsh from the Academy. There was strong evidence of a clash of two big opinions and the man responsible for unearthing and nurturing a lot of talent was lost.
6. What binds this lot together in my mind is that Fletch runs the show on the basis that if you are not with me you are against me. Makes sure he surrounds himself with people who are dependent on him and therefore will echo his words and not question him. The result is inflexibility in thinking and an unwillingness to change. This may have been the right formula when he took over but is out of time. No question he must go and be replaced by someone with a more collegiate approach to the job.
Complain about this postNot sure I agree with Geoff's comment that test openers are going in at 6,7,8 in ODI's to steady the ship? especially not the top 4 teams he earlier urged us to look at for inspiration. Smith and DeVilliers open in both forms, Hayden opens in both forms, Flemming goes up to open from 3, but I cant think of any test openers down the order in ODI, it hardly helps smash the old ball to all corners for an opener from the long form to turn up instead of, er say, Oram, Hall, Boucher, Symonds, or for us (in days of yore) Freddie.
Complain about this postOther than that some very valid points.
When will England learn that KP plays for KP. His best position (and one that he probably wished he had now) would be batting at number 6 for South Africa. But he might struggle to find a spot there and he knows it. So England might be stuck with him for a while yet.
Fine batsman.....ordinary team man.
Complain about this postAustralia expect to win because they have the talent and determination to succeed. England expect to win because they are English.
There's the difference.
Complain about this postEngland's lack of confidence and direction was clear to see throughout the whole tournament. It was clear that to much emphasis was placed on to few players, especially in the batting department. England were in a good position against australia with Bell and Pieterson at the wicket and as so often happens they were not ruthless enough when it really mattered.
Complain about this postPresumably Fletcher wasn't alone in the squad selection that left this England team powerless to compete. The failure to drop players plainly out of form (Vaughan, Bell, Flintoff, G.Jones), and pick players plainly in form (Ramprakash, Shah, Kirtley, Panesaar (in Aus)) was a error of collusion.
Shouldn't the chairman of selectors fall on his sword as well. In fact an entirely new selection panel would be in order. Say, for example, Moores, Hussain, Atherton & Gough.
Complain about this postHelp us God! How much of this can we take? I thought with a new coach we would be better. Now we just look like a junior school cricket team, I think we should get back to cricket & leave the jelly bean tossing to the school kids. Not only are we losing on our home soil we're embarrassing ourselves by chucking lollies on the pitch & look what it done! we got thrashed! Alistair Cook you should be ashamed there were too many jelly beans on the pitch to be a accident. Pull your head in fool! & Vaughan give it up you should have realised & stopped it! Some captain you are. Team help restore the respect of the country! We'll never be the number one team in the world if we keep going on like this.
Complain about this post