England in need of change
Barbados - England did not deserve a place in the semi-finals - the only reason they were in with a sniff at all was because South Africa arrogantly underestimated Bangladesh - and Graeme Smith's team mercilessly drove that point home.
Every weakness in England's game was ruthlessly exposed and they were shown to be wholly inadequate to challenge the leading international teams.
The manner in which Ian Bell, Michael Vaughan and Andrew Strauss calmly and routinely defended the new ball at the start of England's innings verged on the comical. This is not a new approach, but the one we are repeatedly told is the way that best suits England’s players. What a joke!
All that happened was Shaun Pollock and Charl Langeveldt were never pressurised, and were able time and again to pitch the ball up and swing it away from off stump. Not once was there an attempt to hit them off line or length. It became rather funny, in a sad sort of a way.
Of course, Graeme Smith and AB de Villiers then showed England how you do bat at the start of a one-day innings. You don’t have to slog, but you have to play your strokes, not merely to score runs, but to snatch the initiative - something that is anathema to England. How they made James Anderson and the worryingly fragile Sajid Mahmood suffer.
Vaughan is a shrewd tactician and a good leader. He is also a fine Test batsman. However, his record as a one-day cricketer speaks for itself, and he should not be chosen again. You simply can’t carry people these days, captain or not, and he should be replaced by Paul Collingwood.
I believe that relationship will work not only because they are friends, but Collingwood has no realistic hope of leading the Test team, and therefore he should not tread on Vaughan’s toes.
And what about Duncan Fletcher?
This is a more complicated issue than merely replacing a captain, but it does seem now that a fresh face is needed. Fletcher has done a great deal for English cricket since taking over from David Lloyd, but new ideas and a more aggressive and positive approach has to be instilled.
Time is an issue, because the right man has to be chosen, but I don’t see any problem in Fletcher announcing now that he will stand down at the end of the summer, giving the England and Wales Cricket Board plenty of time to select his successor.
This defeat, and particularly the manner of it, was chastening, devastating, and embarrassing. Perhaps just as well that it was, because unlike the temporary distraction the CB Trophy created in the wake of the Ashes debacle, English cricket was laid absolutely bare at the Kensington Oval.
Change is necessary and unavoidable.
Quite right. I'm pleased, too, that there was no late rally by England that might have, as so often before, diluted the poverty of this cricket team.
I think we need a nasty man in charge: a hard man. We've had the soft and I'm sure very charming (in his own sweet way) man in Fletcher, but having kicked the team off the bottom of the pile, he doesn't appear to know quite what to do next.
What's that Irish bloke's name who played for Man Utd and now coaches Sunderland? He'd do.
And bring back Strauss as captain. Please.
Toodle pip.
Complain about this postAs I said earlier, KP's arrogance and single minded obsession with his personal successes will create such a hole in English cricket that it'll be too late when we discover it. Not to mention the media backing such a fairy tale themes--"KP's the best" and "he's the anchor"....bullshit...period!!
Has a batsman ever, by himself, won a team games? (Lets not bring the great Don here). We need a team spirit...and that spirt comes when everone knows they need to put 110% for the cause.
What happens when KP is around is similar to what Sachin did to the Indian team. Everyone starts believing he's gonna play for the rest of them.....and while Sachin doesn't try to overimpose himself by trying to be absurdly brash in the middle, KP's sheer arrogance not only shows how less he cares about the team but it certainly brushes off on others.
It's sad to see what happened here today.....but what made us with the CB series? No KP (the so called best batsman in the World....hmmmm). 5-nil in Ashes...and guess who was present there.....5-nil against Srilanka....guess guess.....5-1 against India....well....isnt it obvious other guys breath freely without KP around?
Complain about this post"England did not deserve a place in the semi-finals"
To be honest, you could have left it there. We all knew what would happen today, and it did.
Cheers for the commentary on my way home from work though, depressing as it was!
Complain about this postToo true Aggers, too true. I was embarrassed to watch that woeful display.Something now has to change, and for me Vaughan's One Day career should come to a close.
Complain about this postAs with boxers not knowing when to retire in their prime, Fletcher missed the opportunity to stand down in the light of the glorious exploits of 2005. He's now presided over a woeful tour to Australia and a dismal World Cup. His loyalty to favourites only works when they win. The Augean stables need a complete clear out and wash down before a new trainer to sets to work with a fresh string of horses
Complain about this postEngland were outbowled, out-fielded, out-batted and out-captained. The VB success should never have masked England's failings. We are a very poor one day side - other than Pieterson we have no international class one day batsmen. And for a country like England that is very sad. I just hope that in 4 years time something will be done - but don't bet on it.
Ultimately, I think we will prove in the Summer that we are still a decent test team especially on home soil. But we need to start taking the one day game more seriously and picking the right sort of players so that we are never again in a situation when we are on just 9 runs off the first 7 overs in effectively a World Cup Final!
Complain about this postI agree it was a shocking performance as it has been throughout the world cup and only Pieterson can put his hand up and say he's done his bit. I'm embarrassed to be english.
Complain about this postI agree, Saj is way to inconsistent - capable of some great balls but then some right howlers. However I don't think that a change of captain or head coach will bring massive changes, although it will help... unfortunately the players have been living in a bubble since the Ashes victory 2 years ago. This England cricket team joins the traditionally long list of English sporting over-hyped failures who are as clinical as a Watchtower yielding Jehovah's Witness.
Complain about this postSpot on Aggers. Fletcher has to go, but with dignity. He has been fantastic for England. I would have him in a talent spotting role, maybe as a selector too, whilst handing over the coaching reins to Moody or Moores. Fletcher has skills which are still very valuable to us, but as a coach he's past his sell-by-date.
Complain about this postI entirely agree - the selectors also need to accept that Sajit just isn't an international quality bowler at the moment (if he ever will be).
Complain about this postWhat to make of the CB Trophy success? Well, Australia played like they weren't interested while New Zealand were just unfortunate. England capitalised on that, but there was no way in the world they were going to get away with it again at this level and in this sort of competition. We deserve to be out of it - no doubt about it. We are not good enough and we are still light years away from being a consistently good one day team.
Hats off to the ICC for getting something right though - the Super 8 has certainly sorted out the best four teams to reach the semi-finals.
Complain about this postI agree with everything you said, Aggers. Today is the Death of English Cricket Mark III. Mark I was the first Ashes defeat by England and Mark II was in 1999 when England were declared the worst cricket team in the world. What a lousy winter for England! An Ashes whitewash and to be kicked out of the World Cup in such humiliating manner. The CB victory will now be forgotten and as you said, change is now unavoidable...
Complain about this postSpot on, Aggers! A thorough thrashing leaves no scope for "if" & "but"! England just don't get it when it comes to limited overs. By the way the top batsmen from the leading countries seem to perform at both forms and don't split the captaincy.
Complain about this postMoody for coach. Cook, Broad and Shah in the team. Left / right opening partnership. 50 over games at the domestic level (why 40?) Emphasis on accurate bowling to a field; much better calling and running of singles when batting; aggressive fielding with specialist positions ...oh, and a willingness to dominate with both bat and ball! West Indies, watch out!!!
David
Given that South Africa have just completely outclassed England in every single department, is there not a case for saying that England shouldn't even be at this tournament? That, after all, was the argument being made against the minnows taking part. Scotland, for example, didn't do any worse against the South Africans than England did. Either both are entitled to take part in the tournament or neither of them are up to it.
Complain about this postI agree with Mr Jonathan 100%, excpet for the Coaching part. I think England do need a new Coach. Please let our Engalnd players know.. they are not playing 50 over test Cricket...its just so awful to watch them.
Complain about this postOh how true. As the son of an avid Yorkshireman I will always support Vaughan and I beieve him to be a very good captain, but when it comes to the OD game that isn't enough. Then there is talk of Freddie being troubled by the spinners; I know it isn't a new idea, but shove him up the order, even open.
Complain about this postSaj, no more can be said.
It all points to poor selection and planning.
England got what they deserved (unfortunately) and the whole OD concept needs rethinking, noone is safe.
Hog, Harmy and Alistair should count themsleves lucky to not be a part of this shambles.
here here
Complain about this postThat was a complete embarrassment, i love the England cricket team (they are my TEAM and have spent vasts amounts happily travelling all over the world to watch them) but today i actually could no longer watch as it was too comical or in my case too painful (S.A. 43/0 after 3 overs, thats how to start a run chase!)
Thanks Fletcher for 2004/5, 18 months of unbelievable Test cricket and the Ashes summer which will be with me till my dying day but please do the honourable thing and never darken another England 1 day international with your 'coaching skills'!
Complain about this postcompletely agree, Pietersen at number 3
Test line-up
Strauss
Flintoff
Pietersen
Bell
Collingwood (c)
Bopara
Vaughan/Joyce
Broad
Panesar
Plunkett
anyone agree?
Complain about this postI really couldn't agree more - everything Aggers has said is spot on. What I cannot understand is how - the recent ashes debacle notwithstanding - England can be such a good Test team and such an awful one-day team. The format may differ, but the key skills are the same, and lets not forget that on day one in the second test of 2005 against Australia, England were scoring at around four an over all day - in a test!
Whether it's mental, motivational, discipline-related - whatever it is, I think the England management need to throw away every established idea they have about how to run a one-day team and start from the bottom up. If this was my business I'd have all the staff in tomorrow morning and brainstorm the hell out of it.
Complain about this postLooks like these Aussies are too strong due to some good genes, open spaces and some Kangaroo meat. It is about time to think of some handicapping system like in amateur golf to give weaker teams fighting chance. Giving opposition fifty runs wil be one consideration.
Complain about this postI do agree that England played too cautiously at the beginning of the inning, but never before i rated Ian Bell as an opener. I have to say Vaughan was totally out of form (apart from 1 or 2 stroke he played quite timely), and his position needs to be looked at. I thought Strauss played well and positively until KP fell (he was on 24 from 23 balls). But then again, top orders are disappointed and Freddie failed with the bat once again when England needed him.
Complain about this postTerrible World Cup exit for England
Such odd selections have been made over the years that it is no surprise that this should continue - just what exactly did Mike Yardy and Matt Prior do to upset the selectors for example? Played for an unfashionable team maybe?
Complain about this postNotwithstanding the injury to Yardy his continued absence from the team is farcical given his form over two years.
Think back to Collingwood - he was always considered a one-day player only and was only discovered as a test player by accident.
English batting has been poor for years - who can honestly say that they weren't forever worried even as we won the Ashes - a collapse is only ever two balls away.
We need a new coach. We need a new panel of selectors really, who can recognise young players who can be adapted to, not adapted to suit the team. Losing is not a crime, wasting talent is.
While we are here let's also dispel another myth - Freddie is not nor will he ever be, a test number six batsman - he is a fine bowler that can bat a bit, just a little bit. Even in 2005 I would say that the best all-rounder in the Ashes was Shane Warne, followed by Brett Lee then came Freddie.
So why not play him as a bowler with two other seamers and someone like Monty, a keeper at seven and someone like Bopara at six who can bowl a bit. Colly can take a few overs, or not play Monty and use Pietersen/Vaughan as spinner thus leaving room for a fourth seamer. The thing is that a balanced side is one that has the best players in it - not one that strives to follow a set blueprint. Do India, Australia, Sri Lanka et al leave youngsters to mature? Or do they get them in while they are still raring to go?
I'll take the job of selector and show Freddie just how to get blootered on a pedalo and then get away with it...
Must-watch cricket, was the cry, including from BBC sport. And for the second time in two days it was a bust. First, the negative tactics from the Lankans, then true lack of class from the English cricketers.
The English team seems to rely on too few players and they collapsed like a pack of cards when the key players failed. Perhaps Agnew's pleas will be heard and English cricket will take a turn for the better. If this World Cup has shown us anything so far it is that more quality teams are needed to make the sport exciting.
Complain about this postGet rid of Fletcher, the revamp of team must begin right from today and hand Colly whatever is left of the team and give Freddie a long break!
Complain about this postThis is a message to dear old David Graveney.
The excuses and sound bites that england players and coach constantly come up with after and between games have been exposed. We all knew they were not as good as the top teams and incredibly lucky to be still in the tournament at this stage.
I can't see any of our players getting into any of the top 4 teams, except perhaps Pietersen as #5 in SA or NZ; and Flintoff as first change bowler in Sri Lanka or NZ. And actually that's it !
England have been clutching at straws the whole winter. We need a radical re-think.
Complain about this postWell played Aggers!
This side has been woeful throughout the majority of the tournament and its about time an independent enquiry was set up to find out why....no good using the ECB, they'll cover up.
One major question needs to be answered;
Why was an obviously unfit and out of sorts Michael Vaughan selected...if he was appointed as some sort of Brearley-esque figure, it has spectacularly backfired.
When Geraint Jones was being promoted to be some sort of pinch hitter a while ago, that was also supposed to be the best way forward for the team. Truth is, I, and am sure many others, believe that Duncan Fletcher really has no clue about one day cricket.
And as nice as bloke as Saj Mahmood is, he really doesnt cut it at this level
Complain about this postI hope you BBC pundits will give a bit of credit to South Africa for a change. You have repeatedly labelled SA as boring and predictable, with a supposedly glaring weakness against spin (despite that win over SL on a pitch made in Colombo).
I guess boring cricketers hit 6 sixes in an over. And knock-off a target with 31 overs to spare. I know who I'd rather watch, the imported KP apart.
When last did English openers bat like ours did today? It's time England went away and decided on their future approach to one-day cricket. Pretending it doesn't matter for 3 years out of 4 is never going to win World Cups in the long term.
Complain about this postToday was a total embarrassment. I've never understood this 'slow but steady' approach to the beginning of England's batting innings. I mean, it's not as if we can rely on the big hitters to help our score up to a competitive total because they're either out of form or plain inconsistent. The difference is that Australia and South Africa can make positive starts - and if they lose a wicket they have batsmen ready and waiting to come in and carry on with the run rate.
England have some match-winners in their side, but I'm afraid they're awfully inconsistent and generally out of form. Our bowling attack is weak and our batting leaves a lot to be desired. Vaughan - a talented batsmen, maybe - has a shocking ODI batting average. Flintoff has been a big disappointment, and at the moment I fail to see how things are going to improve.
And to think, my South African-supporting girlfriend was actually nervous about the outcome of the game! It was in the bag before we'd even lost a wicket. No team should ever be found 9 for 0 in the eighth over at any standard of ODI cricket.
Complain about this postCricket is a psychological game, and England are without doubt stuck in a mentality reminiscent of the nineties: Bat for 40 overs and hit out for the remaining ten. Is it just me or is everyone totally bemused at Vaughan and Fletcher's apology for their current tactics as 'being the best for the team we have'? Surely this is an admission either that we do not have the players capable of emulating the winning tactics of Australia and South Africa, or more worryingly that the two idiots at the helm of English one-day cricket do not agree that the 'Australian way' is the right way! Both need to go and England's one-day setup needs to step into the modern age, otherwise pathetic capitulations of the sort witnessed tonight will only keep on coming.
Complain about this postGood stuff Aggers, however I differ with you regarding captaincy. What about KP? Would be an excellent opportunity for England's best player to lead a team out in his style that we so dearly crave - enthusiastic, passionate and more importantly aggressive. We need a Smith/Hayden approach and this would be fuelled by Pietersen being captain, not the dibbly dobbly Collingwood. We need younger players in the team, and who better for them to be led by than by the best batsman in the world.
Complain about this postAgree broadly with what you say, though think you were a little unfair on Strauss,who was on 38 off 46 balls, which is not bad given teh circumstances. Change should be mandatory and I would bring in a separate one day coach. Step forward Dermot Reeve, the best one-day thinker in the English game.
Complain about this postWhat a joke.
The England team are pathetic. Rotten to the core.
This has to be the stimulant to overhaul English cricket in its entirety.
5-0 in the Ashes and now this. Embarassing!
Complain about this postHere Here, well said Aggers, yet again England have been embarrassed in the World Cup, the One-Day side has been a shambles and there has been no planning since 2003. It's simply time for Duncan Fletcher to go.
Complain about this postAggers tell us how you really feel!
LOL
England are a joke but a new path is needed.
I'd keep Collingwood, KP, Ravi, Monty and then pick 15 players under 23 and start building for the next world cup.
Complain about this postI think that vaughan should be dropped and be replaced by Mal Loye and make room for Marcus Trescothick either Bell or Strauss (whoever is doing worst) should be replaced
So My England team would be:
Trescothick
Loye
Bell or Strauss
Pietersen
Collingwood
Flintoff
Bopara
Sutton
Tremlett
Plunkett
Anderson
Panesar
They also need to make use of the fielding restrictions which they aren't doing being 70 odd for 3 after 16 overs is not good enough if you look at Australia, South Africa and New Zealand they all scored boundaries by going over the top during the fielding restrictions and get scores like 280-300 while England just block for the first 20 until all they powerplays are over then attempt to hit the ball then get then they are all out for a target like todays which will not win them a world cup ever.
Complain about this postWhat an embarrassment! I feel sorry for the punters who paid to watch such drivel! Vaughan should be dropped and replaced by Collingwood. As for Fletcher and the ECB - heads must roll. To keep on saying after every poor performance "we just have to look to the next game and I'm sure the lads will come good" is not good enough.
One day team should be as follows:
Loye
Bell
KP
Collingwood (C)
Flintoff
Bopara
Nixon (WK until retirement)
Mahmood
Panesar
Anderson
Keep Vaughan for the four days but in the 50 over format he simply can't and never has cut the mustard (and I'm from Sheffield).
One more thing, how come all English sportsmen after failing miserably in their professions say "we need to stand up and be counted"? There's some evil PR specialist that tells them all to say this. Either that or they have extremely limited vocabularies.
Complain about this postAggers you big numpty! You are spot on with your analysis there, England were drab and woeful yet again. Vaughan has failed to bag a drink at the last chance saloon and must surely be shown the door now. His record in the ODI game is as poor as his current form would suggest and he has proved incapable of turning that poor form round. Fletcher doesnt seem to have the answers to the clearly apparent deficiencies within the team and as you say Aggers, a fresh face is needed in that department as well. Tally Ho!
Complain about this postJonathon,
Complain about this postAnother article of nonsense. Collingwood as captain??? Why?? He said himself he has never taken charge of any side in his career. Fletcher to be replaced? We are the second best test team in the world, and compare that to not so many years ago, i think we would all have settled for that.
Talking absolute rubbish like this, it sounds to me like your trying to get a job as a pundit on Sky Sports! Move over bumble!!
I never thought I would say this but I agree with every word Agers has written in his blog today! Time Michael Vaughan did the decent thing. A captain leads by example, and if he's not doing the business it is time to hang up hs pads and make way for new blood. Oh, and I am crossing my fingers that MT is soon fully recovered and able to rejoin the team. Going for a lie down now - even my grey hairs have grey hairs!
Complain about this postHow many times in the last few years have we heard that all preparation was for this world cup, and that we would progress forwards and do extremely well.
When it actually seems that England didn't have a clue what they were doing and that there was no master plan, let alone a back-up plan or any knowledge of how to win.
The entire England set-up needs changing, from the Coach's lack of ideas or guts to change things when it's all going wrong, to the captain, yes Michael Vaughan is, or maybe was, a great tatical mind, but whats the use in a captain who can't do anything then set a field, even then his fields are set up to conceed 6 singles as the priority over wickets.
England need to take action when things aren't happening, Andrew Flintoff can surely be no longer considered a formidable batsmen, yet no-one does anything, he is neither moved down the order or seemingly told to play the bad balls and leave the good ones.
So, can England finally get some guts and admit they got it wrong, and that the system needs drastic change, or are we going to be treated to yet another batch of endless PR spin.
Complain about this postThis miserable performance was always going to be the way England left the world stage. Bereft of ideas and seemingly incapabale of taking the game to the opposition they just turned up to block out one end.. how long can Post 05 Ashes glory be heaped on such a mediocre bunch of glory chasers. The British Press has to put it's hand up as well. This is not a World beating team anymore than it was a 0-5 laying down team in Australia this winter. Yes one or two players can pull off the all too rare individual masterclass... but oh so rare.
Complain about this postThe Press must STOP making this team believe they have potential.. when clearly they and the manager have no idea how to conduct an agressive campaign. You win Trophies by dominating and gaining respect not by pissing off pedaloes and failing to turn up at the main event. I'm afraid this England (team) may be the worst ever and are looking to take the money and run.
Completely agree.
The echoes of laughter and, in some more merciful quarters, bewilderment, are surely reverberating around the cricket world as we speak.
Time is indeed an issue as England have so so much to do in even coming close to the cricketing power houses of the Southern Hemisphere.
THIS CAN'T GO ON!!!! Change now! Experiment now! Please England; please ECB; and please, the cricketing gods - DO SOMETHING!!!!!
Complain about this postAbsolutely agree, Michael Vaughan was never a one day player, and should not be in the team. Paul Colingwood is right to be captain, but why not go back with Freddie or Strauss! After all, Michale's test position should not be cemented as well, he has not performed for such a long time.......
Complain about this postSo which English players had a successful World Cup?
Pietersen - would have won us the world cup with a modicum of support.
Nixon - will be axed some time this year
Bopara - one for the future, an old head on youn shoulders
Panesar - a quiet start in the 50 over game, will get better and bettter with experience
Harmison - he might have a shred of confidence for the summer now
Broad - surely he has to play this summer?
Trescothick - shows how much we miss him
Any other ideas?
Complain about this postFlintoff - big time charlie. On the beers when he should be in the nets. Does he even know what end of the bat to hold anymore?
Vaughn - time to go!
Mahmood - Needs a lesson in holding a good line and length. Unless you really are that fast (ala Taite) and have someone tightening up the other end anyway (ala McGrath) theres no arguement for his inclusion on pace alone.
Complain about this postI agree - change is bound to happen, and it should. I just hope that the English media and fans don't completely turn on the team as that is never constructive.
Collingwood would probably make a good captain - he seems popular, intelligent and sensible, though I don't know what captaincy experience he has (not that this matters). Of this side I think that only two players should be discarded from England's one day plans - Vaughan and Mahmood.
Vaughan must be persuaded to call it a day, possibly before the West Indies game. Mahmood should never play for England again, in any form, unless he seriously works out his game and gets some control. He's simply an embarrassment at the moment, particularly when there's someone as talented as Stuart Broad sitting on the sidelines.
Fletcher mustn't be pushed, though I think he will see his time is nearly up. He must be praised for everything he has done in conjunction with Hussain, Vaughan and Graveney, but I think he's reached his sell by date. Tom Moody would be a good replacement as he seems like a good man manager, knows the English set up and has had good results with Sri Lanka.
Our current crop of selectors should all be kept on for the tests as they have done a fine job (overlooking the last Ashes series!) - perhaps we should have an entirely different selection panel for one dayers, with the manager and captain(s) feeding into both of them.
Let's not go through our traditional "everything must change" rant that we English like to go through everytime something goes wrong - we've had a mishap or two, but there's no need for an overhaul of the entire system.
Complain about this postAggers,
I hate to say it, it pains me indeed, but you are dead right and the thing that gets my goat the most in the whole sorry debacle -because it was one - is that team England did not see what was plain toeven to a rank amateur in the great game like myself. A brutal truth that has slammed into them today like a runaway freight train.
One day cricket is a sport or agression and taking the inniative.
Batting in the nets is marvelously but I have rarely seen a net fight back (unless it is trapping the odd stray dolphin) or snarl out sledges at a Batsman.
A lack of any attacking intent at the outset of the England innings (whether due to the lack of left hand bludgers or due to the presence of several 'craftsman' batsman desperately trying to regain form) meant that inniative was handed to opposition bowlers.
We may have well given Pollock a "rebuild your self-confidence CD", after his Aussie mauling, than the kow-towing batting performance that was put forward to his line and length efforts (coz that is all he has now) for the first 12 overs.
Lord, what it the point - we were just awful, simply awful.
Complain about this postI have followed the English cricket team for 45 years and I have never been so embarrassed as I have over the past few weeks of the World cup. What is really disturbing is the fact that if the management did not have the sense to make changes why did the senior players admit that their performances were not up to scratch and either drop themselves or make the necessary changes. Michael Vaughan would struggle to get into a second division county side, he has just lost his ability to hit through the line of the ball. I also hope that Andrew Flintoff is proud of himself, he has looked like a boy who had his hand caught in the sweetie jar and when caught out, he has just spat the dummy out. He has failed to be part of the team, his whole demeanor has been a disgrace to many young hopefulls who have been watching the competition.
Complain about this postThe Bangladesh team got criticism for being talented but not mature enough for the competition, that may be so, but as a team full of enthusiasm, I would turn on the TV to watch them long before I would watch the turgid stuff from Fletcher's band of no hopers.
I still don't understand the English obsession with 'one day' specialists. We're the only side in world cricket that make such wholesale changes to our line up and squad for one day competition.
If you're good enough for test cricket you're good enough for one day cricket. Good batsmen still pick their shots, good bowlers still put the ball in the right places.
Why do we have this national obsession with "specialist" players. Pick the best 11 available (including the captain Aggers!) and let them get on with it. Matthew Hoggard is one of Englands best bowlers but was left at home along with Harmison in favour of Anderson and Mahmood. Why?
Cook and Jones (G) also missed out on the squad entirely.
Until this two tier selection system is dropped England will never have a strong one day side.
Where I do agree with Aggers is that the attitude at the top of the order needs to change. SA, AUS and NZ didn't hold back but didn't throw the bat wildly against ENG. They just played their natural game and shots. We have to stop being fearful of doing the same.
I'd retain Vaughan but ask him to move down the order and push Flintoff up along with Bopari to allow the top of the order to flourish.
Who now for the cup? ANYONE BUT THE AUSSIES!!! :o)
Complain about this postSpot on Aggers. Michael Vaughan is simply not good enough in ODI cricket. You cannot keep on picking a player because he can captain yet he still cannot score the runs to help get the best results from his captaincy. I think that the Aussies have the right idea by making it clear that their captain has to score runs or take wickets, as well as implementing innovative captaincy. In the majority of other countries, the captain is assured of his place even if he isn't performing.
Complain about this postUtterly humiliating for England. Graeme Smith gave us such a lesson in all aspects of the game including the one thing which lets all our so-called national sports down - mental toughness. Just look at the body language of the Aussies, Kiwis, Springboks and to a lesser extent the Sri Lankans. Duncan Fletcher knows that, hence his espousal of Paul Nixon and Paul Collingwood. It's no surprise that the Rugby team fell away when Martin Johnson retired. Nasser Hussein had it, Mike Brearley had it. They should be the models for English cricket.
Complain about this postAgger's comments are on the mark, and if anything not damning enough.
England do not have a good team for one day cricket. We could not identify alternative English qualified players to replace the one's chosen, other than Marcus Trescothick who is ill and could not be considered.
Vaughan should not be allowed to live on past performances as a batsman and a captain. Pick the best team and then appoint the captain. He should not be the captain for the West Indies series until he has proven himself with runs for Yorkshire.
The tactics adopted in this competition have been mystifying. England are the only country that fails to see the powerplays as an opportunity. The consequence of the inability to take the attack to the oposition in the first 20 overs is that you place pressure on the middle order.
Turning to Paul Collingwood as captain may be a necessity given the lack of alternatives, but this does not fill me with confidence. Paul is a guy who has made himself an International cricketer by his endevour and hard work. Giving him the additional responsibility may lead to him failing in making these performances. The great captains are normally great players, not compromise candidates.
I am sure that this England team will be sick and devasted by the performance in this competition. That Graham Smith has rubbed their noses in it should make them mad and ashamed.
Duncan Fletcher should be told now that he has no further role in running the International team. Whilst he has done a fine job, this role requires new ideas and values, something that he has not been able to deliver.
Complain about this postEngland met a justifiable fate on being blasted out of the World Cup by South Africa.
Complain about this postTime and again, broadcasters and journalists have been stressing that England were lacking in power batsmen in the top order. South Africa were handed the advantage from the outset due to the farcical opening to England's innings.
The England selectors shouldn't be allowed to forget that they discarded the one batsman who more often than not would have seen England off to a dynamic start. So let's hear the name of Mal Loye mentioned; his omission from the side was a major blunder.
I aggree with everything aggers has said. I think we start from scratch. No ones place is safe and the best players will get in on form not names. As for captaincy - collingwood has to be the way to go.
Complain about this postin recent days I have read constantly, from a variety of England players and Management the `England could win the World Cup`
That just about tells you everything about the England mentality - we won the Ashes in 2005 and recently beat both Australia and New Zealand in an ODI - therefore "we must be able to win the World Cup"
Money for old rope - is the only worthy decription of the whole performance
I recall hearing the great Barry Richards on radio some years ago saying that in England we make stars out of anyone with promise - even before they`ve actuall ywon anything !
we are blessed with `mediocrity` in abundance in English sport - and the players are richly rewarded for their efforts ! - the sponsers have got more money than sense - so what`s the point of worrying whether they`re world-beaters or not ?
and finally - reading today`s press - it would seem that most of the England cricket team drank more pints than they got runs or took wickets - so perhaps our obsession with `averages` should include; runs/wickets per pint !
JC
Complain about this postI don't think changing captains is the answer. I think one of Vaughan's strengths as captain is allowing players to express themselves which is exactly what is needed in one day cricket.
Complain about this postVaughan should be dropped down the order to number 6 with KP opening the batting.
I do get the impression that the time is right for Fletcher to move on. A younger more positive coach would be ideal, perhaps an Australian, at least a coach who has one something in one day cricket which rules out any Englishmen.
Aggers is probably the most well placed person to provide comment and insite into English Cricket. I do fear though he misses the main point.
I played to a relatively high standard in my youth and am now coaching juniors. The whole coaching set up to support junior development is a complete joke and sadly we will not improve based on my observations.
I feared that losing cricket to Sky would impact on the general interest that was gained from the Ashes win, however I was "re-assured" that the additional money would flow into supporting grass roots. Rubbish. The admin, support, structure is a farce.
So, changing the captain is the least of our worries. Lets sort out the whole structure. With cricket, unlike sports like rugby, you can actually take raw talent and develop very quickly, we just need help!
Complain about this postFunnily enough I also agree with Aggers.
It's time for Vaughan to stand down as the One -Day Captain. Collingwood would be fair choice.
I tis also time to let all those who have not yet played in the World Cup matches, and those who played but a mere part, such as Broad, Joyce and so on have a go at the Windies.
Let the fresh start begin - NOW.
Complain about this postIf England was as good on the pitch as its sub-standard players have been off it, incessantly talking themselves up with their supposedly motivating psychobabble, it would win the World Cup. There was a glimmer of what might be possible out here in Australia a couple of months ago when the team, minus the liability in one day cricket that is Michael Vaughan, unexpectedly won the Commonwealth Bank series. It was a fine, though one-off performance which possibly gave the players a false sense of their comparative strength. All their previous recent history, including the 5-0 annihilation by Sri Lanka, had been to the contrary. They then went to the West Indies with a complacent , unprofessional attitude exemplified in the Flintoff/pedalo incident.
In the end this thrashing by South Africa might just be what English one-day cricket and its ossified administrators needs to re-think their entire approach to the game and seek new talent. Vaughan must go. He just is not the stuff of which contemporary one day cricketers are made. Moreover, someone needs to speak to Flintoff to make him aware that he can dine out no more on that one great Ashes performance in 2005. As a batsman his technique is flawed and his attitude and judgement questionable. What happened to Liam Plunkett in the West Indies? Out here he was clearly England's best one day bowler. Dare I say it, the entire English team could do with a lot more of the Australians' fighting spirit, their striving always to improve and lack of complacency.
Once more I find myself wholly agreeing with Jonathon's assessment. However, I have little faith the impercipient English cricket hierarchy will do much to alter its unwarrantedly smug attitudes.
Complain about this postCould not have said it better. Their openers just don't have the ability to take the game to the bowlers and hit through the ball. Vaughan and Fletcher must go. Trescothick is sorely missed, and although age may not be on his side, how the selectors have left Robert Key on the fringes the past 18 months is beyond me.
As an SA fan, I could not be more thrilled. The question remains how the SA bowlers will respond to the pressure that Gilly and Hayden will certainly apply. There are 10 guys in the Aus team who can beat you (Hogg is just not Warne).
Complain about this postTotally agree with everything apart from saying that fletcher should step down at the end of the summer. He should go now and put someone like Ian Botham in temporary charge. Someone like him would put pride back in the team and make the players play for our country with pride and passion.
Complain about this postWhy is it that England are so stuck in their ways? Slow batting at the beggining of the innigs, followed by slow batting in the middle and then if we make the final 10 overs with some wickets intact we always seem to lose wickets rapidly. Sajid Mahmood appears to be in the team merely on "potential", and his "ability to reverse swing the ball at 90+ mph"....when has he done that once? Slower ball followed by slower ball followed by leg side half volley! Useless. Why do we not try something new, promote freddy, bring back mal loye, at least he tries to make runs in the powerplays. Drop Vaughan , as Aggers says his ODI form is pathetic, but I would suggest dropping him from the test team also. He hasn't made runs since Manchester '05. Lets try some young players, a new captain, some new bowlers as Saj, Jimmy and co have looked toothless. I suggest for the ODI team:
Tres
Complain about this postLoye
Bell
Kp
Colly *
Bopara
Fred
Stephen Davies
Broad
Jones
Panesar
I'm am passionate about the game of cricket. Last year I downsided my house to fund the trip of a lifetime to watch England in Australia. What an embarrassment that turned out to be. England were totally outclassed by the Aussies and didn't they let us know about it out there!
Today against South Africa, it brought back those sad memories of England being well & truly thrashed - nothing has changed!!
Now the ECB - who are very adept at telling everybody what a fantastic system it has, needs to make intelligent & tough decisions now:-
- Fletcher must be replaced asap by somebody who can demonstrate they can coach the modern game eg: Tom Moody.
- Vaughan struggled playing the 1 day format before injury and despite all the big talk of runs round the corner, he's never delivered. Get rid of him for the 1 day format and replace with Collingwood. Loved it when Collie got cross about the poor fielding tonight - need more of that sort of passion in our side!!
- Bring in new talented players & get rid of those older ones who don't perform. We have a team thats not working already so what's there to lose?
- Finally I think we need to be very careful about the number of overseas players coming into the county to learn our game & take the money. We must limit the number of domestic overseas players and concentrate resources on developing our own world class players.
Complain about this postin recent days I have read constantly, from a variety of England players and Management the `England could win the World Cup`
That just about tells you everything about the England mentality - we won the Ashes in 2005 and recently beat both Australia and New Zealand in an ODI - therefore "we must be able to win the World Cup"
Money for old rope - is the only worthy decription of the whole performance
I recall hearing the great Barry Richards on radio some years ago saying that in England we make stars out of anyone with promise - even before they`ve actuall ywon anything !
we are blessed with `mediocrity` in abundance in English sport - and the players are richly rewarded for their efforts ! - the sponsers have got more money than sense - so what`s the point of worrying whether they`re world-beaters or not ?
and finally - reading today`s press - it would seem that most of the England cricket team drank more pints than they got runs or took wickets - so perhaps our obsession with `averages` should include; runs/wickets per pint !
JC
Complain about this postGood grief - that was one of the most harrowing games I have ever experienced as an England cricket supporter, and there have been a few!
I'm absolutely with Aggers about this being a necessary defeat, however. One-day cricket in England frankly needs a revolution. It's not just the "shorter" format of the game, it's almost a different game entirely.
In the short term, get out the 'Test' players who are struggling to adapt, such as Vaughan and Strauss. As much as a feel sorry for Mahmood, it really doesn't seem like he's going to make the grade. I also have concerns for Monty's wicket-taking ability without the pressue brought through an array of close fielders.
Bring Tresco back ASAP - demons or not, he's the best we've got - and bring Freddie up to open with him. Retain Bell, KP, Colly (capt), Bopara, Anderson and Plunkett. Then choose a few fresh faces, perhaps Stuart Broad, Michael Yardy. With it we need a coach who is going to plan a team for the next World Cup, instead of lurching from one disaster to the next as Fletcher has done.
Complain about this postin recent days I have read constantly, from a variety of England players and Management the `England could win the World Cup`
That just about tells you everything about the England mentality - we won the Ashes in 2005 and recently beat both Australia and New Zealand in an ODI - therefore "we must be able to win the World Cup"
Money for old rope - is the only worthy decription of the whole performance
I recall hearing the great Barry Richards on radio some years ago saying that in England we make stars out of anyone with promise - even before they`ve actuall ywon anything !
we are blessed with `mediocrity` in abundance in English sport - and the players are richly rewarded for their efforts ! - the sponsers have got more money than sense - so what`s the point of worrying whether they`re world-beaters or not ?
and finally - reading today`s press - it would seem that most of the England cricket team drank more pints than they got runs or took wickets - so perhaps our obsession with `averages` should include; runs/wickets per pint !
JC
Complain about this postMuch of that I agree with Aggers, but not the bit about Fletcher.
He must go now. Once you're gone, you're gone and he has little credibility left.
Besides, the ECB should know who they want to replace him by now.
Go for it, ECB. Let's have a new management team and start afresh.
Whoever comes in is going to have to get a grip of Flintoff. His mind is not properly on his game and he might be better rested.
Complain about this postI agree too The one day team just isnt good enough whats going on we dont seem to have the same do or die approach of the aussies and others they dont seem proud to wear the england emblem
Complain about this postHow much practice do they need im sick of hearing the coach and captain saying we will improve the next time .lack of passion lack of application its time for the coach go new ideas and new approach needed. We need someone to get the bowlers to bowl line and length something they have not done for ages pace bowlers bowl too short and cant fine a line. Spin isnt that good either . Id love to see an england team attack play hard . The body language is awful time for a rethink
Looking at the players at the top of Englands order, and the way they played, you wouldn't believe they were even playing the same game as South Africa, Australia, New Zeland and Sri Lanka. These teams set out looking for a score in excess of 300 pretty much regardless of the pitch, while England seem happy to creep toward 250.
There must be another attacking minded top order batsman in England who could have repaced Trescothic. Those taken to the World Cup just don't play with the right attitude to get on top of a bowling attack from the first over.
Complain about this postAgain all i can say is that Aggers is correct. The team have just looked so tired for the whole winter.
They knew it was all to play for today, i'm sorry , but they should of stepped up and been counted. Better to of gone for the win from the start today than to fizzle out like a cheap firework on Nov 5th.
I just worry with the first test being only a month away.
At least we still have some excellent matches still ahead in the World Cup.
Would like to thank for TMS for being able to make even defeat entertaining.
Complain about this postI'm not sure Vaughan even has a place in the test side any more. When did he last score a hundred in ANY form of cricket? Let Strauss have the job and give Vaughan's spot to Cook in the tests. Time for Vaughan to retire to the Sky commentary box. The idea of Fletcher being kept on at all after this tournament is now unthinkable. Even a caretaker coach over the summer would be preferable. The man who perhaps should have got the job is now dead and his murder has been callously trampled over and forgetten by the ICC's officialdom. Warwickshire and SA supporters won't forget Bob.
Complain about this postIts time!!!
Vaughn - who has an inflated opinion of his ability as a one day player; Fletcher - the colonial imposter, he who has never played test cricket or much else for that matter and Graveney - (nepotism is still alive and well in Britain) who was never good enough to play test cricket, but feels he is well qualified to select an international team, must be sacked forthwith.
Lets hope that the ECB does not take the cowards way out.
Complain about this postI'm an Irish Cricket fan but i also follow England closely and i'm dismayed at their fall since the Ashes Series in 2005. This fall was epitimised by their Ashes whitewash in Australia followed by the Commonwealth Bank Series. The English media absolutly slated England throughout their tour of Australia, but as soon as they won three matches they were the best team in the world!! They even tipped them for the world cup!! Aggers is absolutely right, England do need a revamp-get rid of the coach, bring in some up and coming players with experience (possibly Trescothic). But i dissagree with Aggers on the subject of Vaughan. He may not be Englands best player, but he is the only man at this stage to captain England. If Collingwood became captain, England would lose his perforances with both bat and ball.
Complain about this postOne of the most depressing performances i have seen. Outclassed in every sense of the word. Mahmood is not an international class bowler.
Complain about this postI agree with every one of Mr Agnews comments. Collingwood has shown the grit and determination, and will grow into the captaincy. Vaughn has not performed with the bat in a one day for ages, and it is time that the team stopped carrying him.
Some fair points above, but I don't totally agree.
Certainly Vaughan must go as ODI captain and not get a sniff of a chance of getting to 100 internationals and no ton. He shouldn't have been at the World Cup in the first place, or the Commonwealth Bank Series for that matter. He should have been req'd to do more than simply announce his fitness, as his one day record is very poor.
We've effectively been playing with 10 players, no captain is that good that he's not able to
bat or bowl or indeeed field!
I think Duncan Fletcher should go, the ECB have had plenty of time to look for a successor since the Ashes embarassment.
The World Cup performances culminating in today's effort have been equally dreadful, too often the 1,2,3 have batted slowly and not built a platform, the middle order have been under immediate pressure to score quickly. Vaughan set the tempo, everyone who batted with him suffered. Bell's better innings (SL and Australia) were when Vaughan had gone, likewise Strauss's best effort today.
Even today after the previous failures, Fletcher wasn't prepared to change things. Flintoft should have opened with Vaughan at 6, he (Flintoft) might have failed too, but it would have been no great loss. He's batting way too high at 6 otherwise.
Collingwood might be a good shout as one day captain, the only other alternative from the team after pedalogate is Strauss, who did OK last summer.
It's not worth making for the West Indies game, but FWIW in the unlikely event we'd won today I'd have gone for
Bopara (or Flintoft),
Bell,
Pieterson,
Strauss,
Collingwood,
Dalrymple,
Flintoft (or Bopara)
Nixon,
Broad (or Mahmood),
Anderson
Panesar
Where now? well I'd be tempted to have Vaughan prove some form for the West Indies series but I guess that's not feasible with the first test kicking off a month today.
Instead he should be announced as captain for the West Indies series only, and dropped for the India series if he shows no form. Even in test cricket we shouldn't be carrying captain's, certainly the Aussies don't and have dispensed with many showing much better form than Vaughan.
Coach wise, Boycott was right when he called for Fletcher to go before the Ashes. I'd go with Tom Moody, he's not English but done a good job with SL. He made a very canny decision to rest Vaas & Muralitharan against the Aussies yesterday. They are guaranteed to avoid the Aussies in the semis, and if they play them in the final they'll go in with less negatives.
Back to the World Cup, it will be interesting to see how NZ approach their game against the Aussies, after their Hadlee\Chappell series whitewash they ought not be phased by them.
Either way it will be Aussies against either NZ or SL in the final, as you can't see the Aussies batting so negatively against SA. They didn't the first time around, and flayed Pollock in particular.
Complain about this postAs Will Carling once said about a different sport
Complain about this post"This sport is run by old farts" are the ECB to proud or to stupid to learn from the top international teams on how they are run by there organisations both at domestic level and international level.
When will they( IF EVER) reduce the amount of county teams and replace them with regional teams
"IT IS FAR BETTER HAVING A FEW GOOD TEAMS INSTEAD OF A LOT OF AVERAGE ONES"
I agree with Jonathan .The individuals responsible are Mr Vaughan and Mr Fletcher. I dont know on what basis Vaughan managed to come in to the one day team,The selectors should also take some responsibilty for such a lacklustre performance by the English team.I beleive Flintoff should have been the captain of the one day team.
Complain about this postAs I look at the sorry shambles that is the England side at the moment, I wonder how often it is that the national team includes no members at all of the County champions. While I acknowledge that overseas help was a major factor in gaining Sussex two (yes, two) trophies last year, surely it would be normal for at least one of Prior, Yardy, Kirtley or even Adams to have been involved in this tournament. Regardless, it's time to give the off-form likes of Flintoff et al a spell on the sidelines.
Complain about this postVaughan shouldn't have been picked for the world cup at first place. I don't recall him playing any games for Yorkshire after the injury. He was brought back into the squad rather too soon to reduced the captaincy burden from Flintoff and England paid the price heavily. Regular collapse in the top order with Flintoff being out of form threw the whole batting line struggling on every single match. It's time to take a positive approach to the game and follow other country's suits in the opening. Hoping Trescothick is mentally fit enough to play at internation level again, we should give chance to another opening batsman from the county circuit.
Complain about this postAgain, I can't help but agree with everything Jonathan Agnew has said. Vaughan can not be carried any longer, and I think all the batsmen's futures should be in doubt! They have consistently failed to deliver on a regular basis, not just during this tournament but over the last five years (possibly longer).
Collingwood would make a good captain, but in one day cricket I think you have to pick your best eleven then worry about who's captain later (this is not a theory I would apply to test cricket I hasten to add)
As for Fletcher, I think perhaps his time is up, but we need to be very sure we have an equal or better replacement lined up, just look at the fiasco with the England football team! Bob Woolmer would have been the ideal replacement. Not sure who would be any better than Fletcher, who would want the job.
One final point. Alan, I would respectfully disagree with your point about the teams status at test level. England have been rather fortunate in many of their test victories in recent years. They are not a bad team but are they really any better than India, Pakistan, South Africa and possibly New Zealand?
Complain about this postIt is always easy to chirp from the boundary and this is a tournamnet for the world's best to shine...So the sadness is not that we lost to a combative South African team; the sadness is that we were huniliated. That takes an awful lot to recover from. We lack leadership, accountabuility and vision and the time has come to stop pretending we are on the verge of anything other than obliviion. Change the coach, the captain and change the team.
Complain about this postWithout a big hitter to open in Trescothick or Knight (beforehand), England have lacked the firepower to dominate the batting from the start. Then to have a key player in Flintoff being dismissed time and time again when England should be looking to accelerate... You can't play so badly in key parts of the game and then expect results against quality sides.
In terms of bowling, the lack of players who can bowl with either the suffocating control of Pollock and McGrath or the hostility of Tait and Nel was all too evident.
Anyway, the four best teams are (at last!) in the semis. Some real tension to look forward to!
Complain about this postHave to disagree with negative KP comments. the rest of the team should be bolstered by having the leading one day batsmen in their squad and let's face it, every team needs a player like KP. He has balls!
Complain about this postIts not the fault of 1 man, how has KP effected the 'bowling'? Mahmood is just no where near the quality required at this level, and James Anderson is erractic. Why are we still talking over Flintoff's inadequacies as a batsman, play him as a bowler and only expect that from him. it will add depth to the batting by dropping him down the order.
Complain about this postUnfortunately Vaughn is not the kind of batsman that a one day team requires. Lokk at the successes this tournament, from any of the Australian preformances to the trouncing England just received, attack is the beat strategy from the off. Trescothick mustn't be rushed back but should be welcomed with open arms. everybody remember that 50:50 game vs the aussies? if he can recreate that, the batting will automatically improve in confidence.
Most of all, the media must learn not to overhype the English: Disappointment is made worse the bigger the expectation!
What a pathetic shambles.
England won the Ashes by the narrowest margin and we turned them into spoiled brats. Our praise gave them a conceitedness strong enough to mask their insecurities for a short while. The day I saw Flintoff's stupid, drunken face in the newspapers was the day I knew the urn was already on its way back to Oz. Professional sportsmen do not behave that way.
The Aussies are confident, hard-working and mentally strong. Why? Because despite winning everything for the last 15 years, they want to win more ... and yet more. Can you imagine them dining out on just one (flukey) win? No way. It's the kind of thing children do until they grow up to learn better.
Winners know only too well that getting to the top is the easy part. Staying there requires maturity, dedication and desire. 3 things our cricketers (Collingwood excepted) badly lack.
Complain about this postI agree with Aggers, but what about the other poor performers? Flintoff, Strauss et al have all relied on Peterson too often and he is unreliable. Where is the fire and pride? It's all to easy to live off the unusual, fluke results of the CB Trophy and, with hindsight, the 2005 Ashes. I believe we can learn much from the attitude of the Aussies; they play to win. They take pride in wearing the Baggy Green and know they will be picked on current form not reputation. Vaughan should not have been selected; he had little first class cricket and, if it were anyone else, the option would never have been laid before the selectors. So who is to blame? Players? Selectors? Fletcher? All of them? Final question; Should there be separate one-day and test sides?
Complain about this posttimes move on new approach would be a good idea
tbh the cricketers are going the way of the england football team - ie mostly same pick for most matches
some say if not broke.....etc but new blood means different approach and ideas and just maybe more enthusiasm
but as the chaps said on TMS its been a long winter and shame they couldnt carry the commonwealth series form into the Cup.
Complain about this postBeaten in every department.
Complain about this postAggers we salute you. New coach in the making?
You know what the saddest thing is? You just know that SA will completely bottle it in the semis against the Aussies and get thrashed, and as unlikely after today it may seem, I bet the Aussies are glad it's them and not us - they know we can beat them, and they pretty much admitted that this week.
Complain about this postSA seem to be in a "win one, lose one" at the mo and so they should get absolutely thrashed on that form. Saying that I wish them all the luck in the world.
Unbelievable and completely the wrong team mainly the problem it should have been
1. Trescothick
2. Loye
3. Shah
4. Pietersen
5. Collingwood (c)
6. Flintoff
7. Yardy
8. Foster (c)
9. Adil Rashid
10. Plunkett
11. Anderson / Broad
Therefore good batting through (no defending in powerplays for a start)
And accurate tight bowlers and plenty of backup should we need it
Complain about this postIts not the fault of 1 man, how has KP effected the 'bowling'? Mahmood is just no where near the quality required at this level, and James Anderson is erractic. Why are we still talking over Flintoff's inadequacies as a batsman, play him as a bowler and only expect that from him. it will add depth to the batting by dropping him down the order.
Complain about this postUnfortunately Vaughn is not the kind of batsman that a one day team requires. Look at the successes this tournament, from any of the Australian preformances to the trouncing England just received, attack is the best strategy from the off. Trescothick mustn't be rushed back but should be welcomed with open arms. everybody remember that 50:50 game vs the aussies? if he can recreate that, the batting will automatically improve in confidence.
Most of all, the media must learn not to overhype the English: Disappointment is made worse the bigger the expectation!
Complain about this postwell...i think the problem comes down to fundamental mentality. just watch G. Smith bat...or Ricky Ponting.....and then have a look at Vaughan...or Flintoff at the crease. Our players always seem to be nervous in big occasions. where other teams rise...the england team tends to step forward cautiously...not sure they should really be there! And while i am at it...i will say the same for the football team. What is needed is to instill some of the agressive confidence in the players...and i wonder what player in the england side has that?? and he is english? hmmmmmmmm
In my view vaughan should 'nt been played he should have been dropped,flintoff looked out form through out the world cup,and so did vaughan,and also andrew straus shoulds have been opening batsman through out the world cup the england team did'nt look like they could beat the South Africa.I am sorry England looked terriable.We need bit of passion and postives ideas and some aggressive play if we are ever going to be a good one day side,we did beat Australia twice before the world cup.It is time ECB looked for a another coach.We are a decent test team we beat Australia to win ashes in 2005.KP is the best one day cricketer that england has,and untill find aother KP in the english we will always strugle has one cricket team.I hope things can better.
Complain about this postAppalling and embarassing.
Complain about this post9 runs in the first 6 overs,S.Africa had over 70.
a new captain a new manager and 6 or 7 new young players is whats required.
remove the fear and apprehension.
I agree with Aggers. Apart from anything else, our innings was downright boring and yes, sadly comical. Their innings was entertaining. Vaughan has to go, no way out of it - he could've batted his way clear but it's useless now to try and talk his way out of a self-made mess. Those opening overs without score and all that elaborate forward-defensive posturing English openers think looks so cool - humiliating, laughable. Please resign, Michael - fight your way back later if you can. What a dreadful day.
Complain about this postCompletely agree with Aggers, and echoing some people's posts here. I felt ashamed to watch the game, even to support them.
I completely agree with comments as to how much we miss Trescothick, who has been our most prolific limited overs batsmen in recent times.
We are in dire need of a strike bowler as well. And there is only one name I can think of. Who has been missing, and most needed during the winter - Simon Jones. If he hadn't been dogged with injury, I would imagine he would have been in the ashes squad. Agressive, accurate, and know how to hold a bat.
As former England cricketers have said, its time for a major clean out with due attention paid to one day cricket.
Complain about this postYesterday I became a father for the second time with the birth of my first son.
Complain about this postI had wished to mark this major event by telling him in years to come that this was the day that England shook off the fear of losing and finally found the will to win. Erm........
......Sorry son looks like you have just experienced what I fear is the first in a very long line of disappiontments when supporting English cricket. Never mind he has long spinner fingers. I wonder want odds I'd get for him playing for Englang in 25 years. He couldn't do much worst than todays sorry effort. I still love cricket, I just hate it when England are involved.
The attitude has to change. The body language from everyone from the coach and captain down is negative and the entire team seem unable to accept personal responsibility in the same way that over paid prima donnas such as Cole (A.) and Ferdinand (R.& A.) go round a football pitch thinking the world owes them a living.
Watching third raters such as Sajid Mahmood and Jimmy Anderson strutting around and appearing to blame everyone except themselves is frankly embarrasing and the obsession with throwing the ball at the wicketkeeper after a shot has been played gently to them is pointless and laughable. And don't get me started on Paul Nixon's "encouragements". Who is he trying to kid?
Complain about this postEngland are just a very very poor one day team. it's all been said but Vaughan is not good enough his Yorkshire and England averages are rubbish and only Flintoff knows why he describes himself as a batter who can bowl a bit......I think the drink is killing his small brain...
Every other team in world cricket takes advantage of the power plays England are stuck in the dark ages, yes they miss Trescothick but there batting is woeful and sad to say the "booing" was deserved..
Bye bye Vaughan, Mahmood, Nixon, Strauss blood some youngsters and move forwards,, Ian Botham has got this spot on.........change is needed and quickly..........
Complain about this postcannot believe how poor we were expected some fight none came, fletcher vaughan mahmood and anderson must go not good enough broad onions and colly new capt must happen next month when we start the one dayers with the windies.
Complain about this postWell, I do agree that Michael Vaughan hasn't scored much and is not much of a one day batsman. However, he is the best captain England has produced in a long haul. He should have followed the advice of Shane Warne and drop himself down the batting order; may be at five.
Complain about this postAnother issue is why only blame Vaughan, who else has scored in the world cup. Beside Peiterson and Nixon there hasn't been any other batsmen who has played a productive innings. I have always said that Andrew Flintoff is a bit overrated as I just can't recall him playing a valuable innings in the odi(s). May be he hasn't played any or it has certainly been a while. Drop him to seven or eight and bring Nixon up the order in his place.
Absolutely right! Time for a change. I do not blame the individual players, not even Mahmood – who needs time and guidance and a lot of hard work and should not have been chosen before he was the finished article…that has been abundantly clear for a while, but that is not his fault.
By Contrast, Stuart Broad may have been able to offer more to England in the same way that a young Jimmy Anderson did 4 years ago.
Anyway…this is not the issue. It is England’s poor batting and poor strategy that has cost them. Trescothic is a big miss and every team needs a player of his calibre and style at the top of the order in one day cricket. That was not to be, but why was Mal Loye not even selected? The strategy has been wrong, England have tried to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. They have played conservatively because they did not have the players to play extravagantly!
This policy has then confounded those players who do have some one day ability and made them timid and introverted…everybody is terrified of being accused of throwing away their wickets…which makes them guarded for 40 balls, and then panicked into doing exactly that!
Confidence is gone and that is a management problem.
Duncan Fletcher has been excellent for England in the past; they have good players in both forms of the game, but they are in crisis and it is time to move on.
For English team sport, great success leads to complacency, failure, lack of continued ambition and underperformance. As with the England rugby team, if the players that achieved the greatest success (in 2005) cannot be motivated to continue striving for improvement (as all Australian winners do!) then lets get them out and find some real winners who want to win every game! Not just one big event and then retire to the high life.
If sport is about the taking part, then well done England…very gentlemanly! If sport is about winning; let’s have some real aggression, passion, fight, needle and ambition to be THE best. Just watch Australia and see what its all about.
Complain about this postI have never got the impression that Mr Agnew would ever agree with me, but his last comments "Change is necessary and unavoidable" agrees with me in its entirety
Complain about this postIn English cricket and decisioning making, we are extremely poor.
Yeah right. The TITANIC had more chance in changing course to miss the iceberg than we have in sacking the central contracted pocket filled excuse for a cricket team.
Please do not bring out Michael Vaughan and his sad words of "we will do better next time"
Nah we wont ....
Deep sigh
Vaughan was very selfish in insisting on bulldozing his way back into the one day side after his injury, and the England management let him. Even without his recent injury he has a poor record at one day cricket and shouldn't really have been in the team. But he was more worried about the possible threat to his test captaincy that another one day captain might have posed than he was about the wellbeing of the England one day team. That is deplorable.
Complain about this postVaughan was very selfish in insisting on bulldozing his way back into the one day side after his injury, and the England management let him. Even without his recent injury he has a poor record at one day cricket and shouldn't really have been in the team. But he was more worried about the possible threat to his test captaincy that another one day captain might have posed than he was about the wellbeing of the England one day team. That is deplorable.
Complain about this postAt last it's over for England -what a relief for the rest of us! For whatever reason the players - especially the so-called batsmen - seemed to be under the delusion that they are very good - when results show the opposite. Too many players have too much to say about themselves - most of which have been proved wrong. Lets start afresh, a strong captain for a start. What about Adams-he has excellent credentials but has been ignored by the England selectors. I feel it's the same old story- favoured players from favoured counties. The old school-tie syndrome. Lets have less hot-air from individual players, with the captain the spokesman for the media. etc etc etc
Complain about this postEngland's one day side are to say the least non
Complain about this postaggressive....so WHY would they, after winning the toss, decide to bat first and then perform like
they were waiting for Christmas to turn up ?Except for Strauss and Ravi have we ever seen such tepid batting anywhere. The team should be ashamed of themselves. Collingwood would
I feel sure make an excellent captain of the one
day team... due to his long experience of this format....AND he surely deserves to be picked for the team anyway for the combination of his fielding, bowling and batting..... and for his absolute determination. Also... Strauss seems
to be the man with a temperament for the captaincy and the job could easily improve his
batting performances. He should be batting as Smith did today... go for his shots, which he does
but he needs to score a lot more runs in front of the wicket. What on earth has happened to
Freddie ? He was and I hope will be again...the best and most exciting cricketeer in the World.
I couldn't disagree more.
Why is change necessary and unavoidable?
I think we need to question the very mantra we all abide by when our national sporting teams are knocked out of a tournament; namely that we have under-acheived and therefore need to change in order to do better next time.
What realistic chance did England have of winning the world cup?
The answer is two fold: England had a team with the capability to win the tournament, but have not (albeit in brief cameo fashion in the CB series) shown that capability consitently. Most crucially however is the fact that 4 other teams (AUS, NZ, SA, SL) have, can and do demonstrate that very same capability to win tournaments.
So is it fair to conclude that for England to stand a chance of winning, they would have to play to the best of their potential in 90% of games and all of the 'top 4' teams play like, well, England eventually did? And this equation does not take into account the freak nature at which PAK and IND were knocked out! Had it not been for that, we would conceivably have finished 7!!
Vaughan does struggle in ODI's, even he wouldn't argue that point. But we are not in a position where we have the resources to replace him with an opener of genuine ODI credentials. We are playing with the best 15 men England has to offer and we've come up short. That they are the best 15 men in the country is a subjective view held by the selectors admitidly. But they are the people we entrust with the responsibility of selection and therefore because it is their professional job, know more about English cricketers then even aggers, let alone the Great British public.
In short, just because we didn't win doesn't mean wholesale change is necessary. We didn't win because we are not good enough. Incremental change and improvements are the only way we can move forward in ODI's. We just don't have the quality waiting in the wings to take over.
Aggers, would appreciate your comment on this chain of thought...
Complain about this postLets look at the positives...
Monty doubled his number of balls faced in ODI cricket from 24 to over 50 WHAT AN EFFORT!!!!
Complain about this postOk looking at how we batted: we were awful! Disjointed, timid, fearful of what the South African bowlers might do to us and not focusing on what we could do to them. And it's not just been today it's been every game against serious oppostion, even IRELAND!!! We were something like 27-1 after 10 overs and that was after two 9/10 run overs on the previous two. And in ODI cricket getting a good start, especially when batting, is crucial and the first 15/20 overs have cost England crucial starts at crucial times in crucial games. Whereas South Africa or Australia would be, even if they lost a couple of early wickets, 100/110 for 2 and looking at possibly 300+, we are 60/70 for 2 thinking, and I know that we've all thought this, "240 or 250 could be a good score on this wicket, with a couple of early wickets", and it isn't good enough!
England badly miss an attacking opener or top order player, Marcus Trescothick or even Malachy Loye would give England good, fast starts and they would be, even if Loye was out for 30 or 40 off 35-40 balls it's a start, and it is something for KP or Paul Collingwood to work with and build a challenging total.
I think it would be very harsh to criticise Kevin Pietersen or to some extent Ian Bell for the way they've carried England's top six during this World Cup. Sure, KP may be out to a lousy shot but to expect him to go to an unbeaten run-a-ball hundred is unreasonable. Flintoff is basically in pretty shocking nick and lack of form is basically something that happens and I don't think he should be overly messed about with, just given some matches for Lancashire to give himself some confidence and hopefully some form. I have no problems with his bowling at all.
Paul Nixon has had a short but sweet run but I don't think there is an overly outstanding reason for keeping him in the side. Picking a younger (that's narrowed it down) and hopefully more talented keeper such as Prior would be a good thing to do. I am purposely not mentioning Bopara or Collingwood because they will surely be part of English cricket for the forseeable future.
On to the bowlers and Sajid Mahmood in particular. He can bowl 90mph (allegedly) and has the variation and unpredictability that perhaps our attack needs. However, he isn't suited to ODI cricket at all and needs to concentrate on Test Cricket until he can add some accuracy and discipline to his arsenal.
Finally, on to the wider issues, I think that Vaughan will resign the ODI captaincy and whereas there are no perfect candidates I hope that Collingwood gets the job only because there is little threat to Vaughan as Test captain or the dressing room (they are good mates). Hopefully, Tom Moody, who has done a very good job with Sri Lanka will become the next England coach, as I think that Duncan Fletcher will almost certainly jump ship before having to walk the plank.
England need to acknowledge the importance of ODI's and overhaul their one-day team. I think everybody got carried away by the series win in Australia and the team travelled to the WC with a false sense of security.
Complain about this postOn the plus side this WC, Bopara has been a good find and so has been Nixon (despite age not being on his side).
Barring Flintoff, the bowling side looks pretty ordinary. Monty does not fit into the one-day scheme of things. Saj Mahmood is too erratic and his fielding display today was atrocious. Anderson has consistently avoided using his broken hand whilst fielding.
The batting department is an enigma! Clearly, Vaughan is struggling and the onus on upping the run-rate solely rests on Pieterson with Flintoff off-colour. The middle order looks reasonable with KP, FF, Bopara and Collingwood but the top order needs atleast one attacking opening batsman.
England - India series promises to be an exciting prospect this summer, what with both teams looking to erase memories of an ordinary (read "disastrous" if you are an Indian supporter) World Cup campaign. I hope we will see some fresh faces in both teams.
Aggers, on commentary you said, in a funny sought of way, this is the best thing that could have happened to England, and I could not agree more. Maybe this will make us change our approach, attitude & personnel, with Fletcher & Graveney Stepping down, and Vaughan Retiring from ODI circket, aswell as having to score runs for Yorkshire to retain his place in the Test side. Nixon has actually been a bright spark, in a damp squib of a world cup, but we must look to the future.Prior would be my choice. If we use this as a positive, as Australia did at the end of the 2005 Ashes series, to come back better and stronger, this may be a big turning point in English cricket. If we drift along as the ECB tend to do, this could be a sign of what's to come.
Complain about this postVaughan was very selfish in insisting on bulldozing his way back into the one day side after his injury, and the England management let him. Even without his recent injury he has a poor record at one day cricket and shouldn't really have been in the team. But he was more worried about the possible threat to his test captaincy that another one day captain might pose than he was about the wellbeing of the England one day team. That is deplorable.
Complain about this postDon't agree with MJ's criticism of Pieterson. Its a fashionable English trait to trash those with flare. Pieterson has obviously had to tailor his interviews to keep emphasing the team incessantly for people such as yourself. He is not the problem. Nor by the way has Sachin been for the Indian team - it never stopped Dravid performing nor did it stop India having a golden period with their batting when briefly they challenged Aussie dominance.
Aggers analysis is spot on. Struass is classy enough - just has some current issues. But Mahmood and Vaughan are not up to it. Bell is only just good enough (comfortably slower and weaker than any on the Aussie top 6). Anderson is merely OK overall.
Suggestions? Perhaps Tres is not ready for long tours but could he play just odi's for a while? Simon Jones? Broad? Lewis?
Complain about this postWe havebeen protecting the reputation of the Engalnd players too long. There needs to be a root and branch analysis of the performance of all players and include only on performance criteria and not misplaced loyalty. Flintoff needs to understand his posiytion is purely performance driven. The captaincy should go to the best leader/tactician. Young platers mus be included and given a chance. They could not do worse.
Complain about this postNever mind feelings let's deliver results. The followers of Welsh and English cricket deserve more for their loyalty and money.
This was an accident waiting to happen. The outlook of English cricket has been too negative and selfish since the Ashes victory. Rather than build on that series win, the whole game in this country has taken a step backwards. The players have played and acted as spoilt children since that famous day at the Oval. Everything, from the ridiculous award of the OBEs/MBEs to all players through to the WAGs getting free trips to Australia has been wrong. Troy Cooly was let go too easily and replaced by Kevin Shine - the invisible man. It should have been Strauss instead of Flintoff for skipper and it seemed to me that Fletcher and Vaughan really had no idea on tactics for the World Cup. Take today for example, Vaughan was pathetic in the field from the first ball of the SA innings showing no imagination or attacking flair with his field placings. And lets not talk about the batting!.
It then depresses me to see players like Shane Warne and Justin Langer (excellent ex-test players) taking up captaincy roles at county level. Throw into the pot ex-players like Darren Gough, Mark Butcher et al and you wonder how young English talent can shine through and gain experience of captaincy. And the amount of foreign players in the game is a disgrace. The only potential bright sparks are the emergence of players like Stuart Broad and the return of Simon Jones. And lets hope James Benning, Nick Compton and Ali Cook kick on during 2007.
The game is in financial rude health at the moment but it is time for English cricket in general to take a good look at themselves. And that also goes for the likes of Andrew Flintoff, Michael Vaughan, Steve Harmison and Andrew Strauss. I also (maybe harshly) also include Kevin Pietersen who isn't converting good scores into great ones - mind you, he always comes in under pressure so maybe I'II let him off !
Complain about this postSpot on Aggers! Change is needed from top to bottom - we can't sink much lower than this winter's performances.
I for one am relieved that England didn't make the semis - that's one less day we'll have to watch England's finest play like schoolboys coached by a Polish supply teacher (with due apologies to any Polish cricketers out there who would probably give England a tough test right now).
Do we really have to play the Windies on Saturday? If there truly was a caring God there would be torrential rain all weekend. At least I hope the authorities don't fill the ground with schoolchildren. There is enough unhappiness in the world already.
Complain about this postI totally agree, change is needed! England should review their tactics no more of this borring blocking get in there at the start of the innings and make the bowlers uncomfortable. Englands one day team has test players in it not one day specialists the team needs to look at the C&G trophey and 20 twenty cup for the players who specialise in the shorter form of the game. England need a openning pair who can lift them, they require trescothick back and possibly move KP up the order. Preperation for big tounaments needs to be better, an example is New Zealand who played 2 test in 12 months and endless one dayers. Is it right for Flecther to go? yes it is maby Woolmer would have been a possibility but unfortunatly there now seems to be no other options. England are in a dire situation someone needs to take it by the throat and solve it!
Complain about this postWhy on earth did they leave Mal Loye out he had the ability to get runs on the board. Get ride of fletcher and vaughn. Bring Beefy into the English set up , he had balls, not like this pathetic lot.
Complain about this postI agree. Michael Vaughan's one-day batting has failed to stand up to scrutiny and it's high time he is dispensed with, however good a Test batsmen he undoubtedly is. However, I can't help thinking that this is more hope than expectation unless Vaughan falls on his sword as I cannot see Fletcher or the selection committee making any decision of this sort any time soon.
Collingwood for captain is a good shout. He's experienced, mature (unlike another Northern all-rounder I could mention) and commands instant respect among his team. He is admittedly rather short on international captaincy experience but there's only one way he's going to get it, and I hope that the selectors have the vision to throw him in sooner rather than later.
But also, I sincerely hope that the bowlers get some bowling in this summer. Sajid Mahmood in particular needs overs - he is unquestionably a diamond but at the moment he is as rough as they come. Maybe I'm sounding old-fashioned (at the age of 19? Please no!) but surely a season out of the England squad and bowling every day for Lancashire is no more than common sense. Ditto Anderson, who still doesn't seem to have reclaimed his early magic.
Complain about this postI HAVE READ YOUR COMMENTS OF THOSE BLOGGERS WHO HAVE CALLED FOR CHANGE. YOU ALL MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE IN THINKING THAT THE ENGLAND SET UP INCLUDING ALL SELECTORS LISTEN TO ANYONE BECAUSE OF THEIR ARROGANCE, IT AS ALWAYS BEEN SO AND IT WILL ALWAYS REMAIN SO.
FOR OVER 50 YEARS ITS BEEN THE SAME, ONLY ON ONE OCCASION DID THEY BEND TO THE MEDIA AND THAT WAS THE BASIL D'OLIVERA INCIDENT.
THEY DO NOT LISTEN AND WHY SHOULD THEY ?
THEY ARE EXPERTS THEY KNOW BETTER THAT US.
THE DAY THEY LISTEN TO THE FANS WILL BE A FIRST.
THE OFFICIAL LINE WILL BE, THE PLAYERS WERE BEATEN BY A GREAT SIDE AND WE DID NOT PLAY AS WELL AS WE COULD HAVE DONE, WE WILL GO BACK AND REVIEW OUR PERFORMANCE AND WE WILL PLAY BETTER NEXT TIME, WE OWE IT TO THE FANS.
DOES THAT SOUND FAMILIAR ? IT SHOULD WE HAVE BEEN HEARING IT FOR FAR TOO LONG.
Complain about this postGreat points... particularly on the start of Englands innings.
It seems not too long ago that Marcus Trescothick and Nick Knight opened the innings. I remember being impressed by Knight on replays coming down the pitch taking the seamers on and hitting over bowlers the head for six. Next ball he'd feint it again, the bowler dropped short, he'd rock back and pull for four.
One day international tactics. Where was any of this kind of intent and thought from our top order batsmen in any game in this world cup? Security at the top is critical and we never got it right here - it just shows how critical a reasonably consistent enforcer at the top of the innings is in this form of the game as a solid start significantly takes the pressure off the batsmen to come.
Complain about this postCorrection Johnathon: Vaughan WAS (not is) a shrewd tactician and good leader. He has been out of the game for too long and it showed.
Complain about this postShrewd tactician? Flintoff should have batted at three throughout the tournament, the opening batsmen should have shown much more urgency, why was Mahmood ever given a cap (Flintoff should have opened the bowling today for example) why have Harmison and Hoggard been allowed to duck out of one dayers instead of getting to grips with the requirements of the game....the list gets longer and longer.
Good leader? Vaughan has shown himself arrogant and detached from reality by using each game as a personal net session instead of being ruthless (a la Denness in Australia) and dropping himself.
After each World Cup since 1996 we have heard the same old cliches (basically 'don't worry, we'll get it right next time') and every time since we have seen such feeble and utterly embarrasing performances you wonder how much further behind England can fall. This competition has marked a new low for England and ensured that we will be a one-day basket case for a while yet while the complacent thinking and cosy top-brass set up remain.
Surely the point is not that Vaughan should be dropped, but more to the point why he was even selected in the first place... a total mystery. Never before has a player done so little to merit a place in an international team.... He's not even good enough for the Scottish team!
Complain about this postWhy was Mal Loye picked in Aus and then dropped for Vaughan for the World Cup????
Too late Aggers. Vaughan should have been dropped long ago...too much misplaced loyalty from Fletcher to a man whose ODI average would get him nowhere near the team if he were not the full test captain.
Complain about this postThis crushing defeat was just what was needed for English cricket - it has laid bare the crack-covered walls that were so expertly masked following the CB series win over a disjointed and disinterested Australian side that had their minds on other things - namely, the World Cup.
England never deserved to be in with any chance of making the last four, and as Aggers rightly says this was only down to us taking liberties against Bangladesh.
I am now looking forward to toppling the Aussies from their perch in St Lucia - and for an SA versus SL final. Though I'd like something a little more comfortable than a one-wicket win and Malinga four-for fest!
Complain about this postBring on Mourinho!
At least we can be boring, and win!
Complain about this postYou said it this morning Aggers on Radio 4 that all we had to do was sit back and keep our fingers crossed. I don't think I have ever heard those words used before on any English international team game - and how right you were.
Complain about this postthe win in the VB series was but a minor blip when the australian team regrouped and rested players...and fielded a 50% strength team.
England did not raise the bar to beat them
Do not kid yourself, England desewrve to lose in the World Cup and most of the players contracts deserve to be torn up
Complain about this postQuite right. I'm pleased, too, that there was no late rally by England that might have, as so often before, diluted the poverty of this cricket team.
I think we need a nasty man in charge: a hard man. We've had the soft and I'm sure very charming (in his own sweet way) man in Fletcher, but having kicked the team off the bottom of the pile, he doesn't appear to know quite what to do next.
What's that Irish bloke's name who played for Man Utd and now coaches Sunderland? He'd do.
And bring back Strauss as captain. Please.
Toodle pip.
Complain about this postMJ
So Englands losing today was because Pietersen failed.Didn't take long for him to get the blame.
He did fail today and consquently we only scored 150ish .
All this guy has done for the past two years in both forms of the game is start as our best player and remain our best player. We would not have won the ashes in 2005 without him. H ehas improved his game and played well in evey series we have had.
If the rest of the England team cannot play with him in the team then they need to grow up these are highly paid professionals not the local junior school team.
We lost today because everybody failed.
We won the toss and decided to bat. Our top order scored 12 runs of 7 overs.
We select a captain who was not match fit. Flintof is not the force he was two years ago and should just be selected as a bowler. Our bowlers need to go away and learn about line and length.
I agree with jonathan Agnew. Fletcher has to go and so does Vaughen. However I think we will have to select a new captain full stop for both forms of the game . No other team has a different captain for ODIs and tests it won't work.
We need to look to the future. Select a captain who can perform in both disciplines who does not have to many roles already in the team who is young enough to lead us for the next four or five years.
I'D go for Pietersen
Why
because he works at his game
he is honest about how we perform
he is not to close to his team mates and a good captain cannot be everybodies Mate
He has a tough skin and answers his critics time and time again with his performances
He does not go out drinking when on England duty
The other thing that needs to change is how much international cricket we play. These players have played every month for more than 12 months. If we only played one team in the summer the players could play for their counties more and if out of touch find some form.
Complain about this postI can't help but notice that when England beat Australia at the end of the summer KP was not there nor was Vaughan. But Plunkett was and Flintoff had to perform.
Complain about this postHaving been one of the unlucky people to have spent money following England through their Ashes tour from November, it is thoroughly depressing to watch what we have just witnessed in the world cup game today against South Africa.
Complain about this postBut despite the appalling performances, is it suprising!
Having left England in November, the team embarked on a 4 month tour, which then gave players two weeks off before the world cup. Having performed poorly for 5 and a half months we are then expecting them to pick themselves up and perform again in a test series against the West Indies on May 17th. They will then be in action against West Indies and India until Setember the 8th when they will embark on another tour to Sri Lanka on Setember 25th till christmas. No wonder Trescothick is suffering from stress! Even the footballers get the summer off!!!
Yours a very disappointed, depressed England cricket fan!!
Inept.
No pride.
Not good enough.
Same gutless performances as produced by football and rugby sides.
Are the English World champions at spectating rather than competing?
Complain about this postNo one has mentioned to absurd playing schedule that only Team England had set out for them by the ICC / ECB administrators.
No other international sportsmen in ANY sport with genuine ambition would undertake the following programme -
My exception that proves this rule incidentally is England Rugby Union their results and selection issues look pretty similar:
a 5 test Ashes series in 2005,
followed by a long winter on the sub continent followed by a full English summer,
a 5 Test Ashes Series in Oz,
the OD series in OZ
plus a little bolt on extra....The World Cup.
Surprise surprise...where is the spine of the team....well here they are...
S Jones - long term injury
Tresco - long term injury
Vaughan - long term injury
Harmy - mentally shot
Fred - physically shot and under the stress of captaincy / injury and schedule I fear now mentally shot too.
The only players with any credit from this winter have not undertaken this schedule...
Pietersen - recharged batteries pre world cup due to injury
Collingwood - has until this last year had little Test Cricket...
Monty, Bopara and Nixon - recent selections....
At this level 90% of the performance is between the ears...and the guys are too knackered and more than likely too bored with cricket and travelling to raise their games and compete.
Complain about this postI totally agree with Aggers. But going back to the Ashes 2005 and the build-up to that series, i feel that this was the time when england reached its peak, both in tests and one-day cricket. Flintoff was fully fit and was able to inspire players into good performances of their own, gough was still doing it and harmison probably had what turned out to be his purple patch. But i think this team is overrated unfortunately, or they try to overrate themselves at least. Sure, pietersen is a class batsmen and yes, perhaps his best time in terms of what he did for the team in an england shirt was when he was coming into the team and didnt have that sense of arrogance that meant his fellow players began to rely on him to get the runs.
Complain about this postBut without trescothick and a fully-fit flintoff (who was no doubt brought back too early and has perhaps meant we will no longer see the best of him), england are not going to be up there until the new generation of broad, simon jones (when fit), prior/davies, cook come through properly, and a bigger pool of quality players. Vaughan had that special year, but has returned to the vaughan of old and has to be dropped from ODIs too. I think there is hope for this team, but it will take a few years yet, under a new coach!
I can't see the ECB doing anything about it to be honest though. Even after all this they'll still insist that England were at the fault of misfortune.
Complain about this postmahmood's misfield on the rope was the most hilarious moment on tv this year and was typical of england performance...he just could not be bothered to bend down any further....and a golden duck as well..surely they have to drop everyone but KP, collers and bopara
Complain about this postEverything that is wrong with the England team today was shown in the first eight overs of each innings. Engla 9 for 1 SA 80 for 1.
This team is incapable of adapting to the modern one day game. The best one day players such as Loye and Maddy are left behind while the centrally contracted players reap the reward of having made it and not having to perform.
The team should be picked on current form not on who has cost us £250,000 a year decided mid summer
Complain about this postI completely agree with Aggers. England believed they were invincible after winning the Ashes but failed to realise that unless every individual works as hard ,as Paul Nixon has shown by example, previous triumphs mean nothing. The selection of players who cannot live up to their resposibilities and believe their hyped up images has contributed to a "It'll be alright on the night"attitude.
Complain about this postWhat we see is a bunch of overpaid , undisciplined underacheivers led by Duncan Fletcher who apparently see little wrong.
I suggest someone gets real, give players ,who whilst they may not have the sme "ability" as current England players, will at least Fight for the right to wear the England Cap
It's time to get rid of Fletcher. We need someone who can motivate the players. Fletcher's time selection is poor. We have some talented players get someone who can develop them into a cihesive team.
GET FLETCHER OUT HE's THE BIG WEAKNESS
Complain about this postSave your passion and writing skills, Aggers. Graveney has already defended Vaughn. So nothing much is really going to happen. England's World Cup fiasco will be regarded by the authorities as a "little bit" of a problem. There will be, in the true English style, a bit of tinkering here and a bit of tinkering there.
Change the selectors, get a new captain, and get a new coach.....call for drastic action, no way. Not on your life. The old boy network will not allow major surgery to go ahead.
On several occassions, radio TMS cricket commentators said that the English team looked tired and complained about the gruelling winter schedule. So did the Aussies. In fact, they had a worse winter schedule than England. How is it that they are unbeaten in the World Cup?
In an year's time, you will be writing the same kind of blog again, making the same kind of points. Carry on Tinkering, England.
Complain about this postI can't help but notice that when England beat Australia at the end of the summer KP was not there nor was Vaughan. But Plunkett was and Flintoff had to perform.
Complain about this postGoing back to my previous post...bowlers win you matches. England won the ashes and the series prior to that because they had a world-class bowling attack all in form and the form of their lives. There is definately potential there for years to come,. but not in mahmood, anderson needs county matches, and flintoff needs to rest and hopefully return to full fitness, yet i doubt he ever will recover from all his injuries. Broad will be a star and panesar will get better, and we will be there or there abouts in having a confident team if we have a good set of bowlers as well as pietersen and cook and others there
Complain about this postSo depressed by that awful display!
You could replace half of that team with Hick, Ramprakash, Loye, Solanki and instantly get a better batting display.
Surprised Vaughan hasn't retired from one-day cricket yet.
Complain about this postIt must be possible for Fletcher to be replaced in time for most of the summer action. It would be quite wrong for him to remain in place any longer. A fresh eye is needed, so someone from outside the current set up should be the new coach - certainly not Moores. Woolmer would have been the right man
Complain about this postThe approach of England's batsmen has rightly been criticised, but more worrying is the lack of basic skills. Players such as Anderson are worse players than when they first came on the scene despite the time and money invested in them. It seems to make no difference whether they spend time with England or their counties. Is it poor coaching, weak character, or something else?
Regarding the feeblenes of England's top-order batsmen, why on earth did the selectors not consider Alistair Brown of Surrey, one of the most devastating one-day openers in England? In his last match for England he scored a century, but has never been selected again. If Paul Nixon can be picked at his age, why not Brown?
Complain about this postis there room on the aer ligus flight?
Complain about this postSave your passion and writing skills, Aggers. Graveney has already defended Vaughn. So nothing much is really going to happen. England's World Cup fiasco will be regarded by the authorities as a "little bit" of a problem. There will be, in the true English style, a bit of tinkering here and a bit of tinkering there.
Change the selectors, get a new captain, and get a new coach.....call for drastic action, no way. Not on your life. The old boy network will not allow major surgery to go ahead.
On several occassions, radio TMS cricket commentators said that the English team looked tired and complained about the gruelling winter schedule. So did the Aussies. In fact, they had a worse winter schedule than England. How is it that they are unbeaten in the World Cup?
In an year's time, you will be writing the same kind of blog again, making the same kind of points. Carry on Tinkering, England.
Complain about this postthe weakest link in the england side is michael vaughan.
Complain about this postWhat a disgraceful performance, I have wasted my time watching that load of rubbish. SA deserved their victory, through Aggression and bullying.
I think they deserved not to win the world cup, based on the performances over the last four years.
Changes have to made from management right through the players. Fletcher should go and replaced by John Wright, Geoff Boycott or Tom Moody. Coaches who actually have an idea about one day cricket.
Players who are over thirty who can't contribute should be kicked out of the team and replaced by younger identified talent such as (Cook e.t.c), they should be selected and given the time to developed and not dropped after a couple one dayers. Split the captaincy, with Collingwood or Strauss given the job. It has worked when Steve Waugh was replaced by Ricky Ponting.
Players such as Broad, Bopara, Panesar and KP should form the core of the team. By the time the next world cup arrives the average age should be between 26-28.
Complain about this posthi there im a very very disappointed fan and i am totally disgusted as to the way our players performed. now listen to this mr graveney you pick your best one day players not test or four day players when the mind set is that you should defend. if you look at australia and the other three teams you will see that they have batsmen who get after the bowlers straight away. we have those sort of players but they are not in the england squad. it is about time you got your act together and pick natural one day players ie ronnie irani and mike yardy mmm wonder what happened to him he was one our best players last summer but you and your colleagues overlooked him. we cant wait until the next world cup you have to do something now.
Complain about this postbrian
brighton
The obvious problems with England's batting approach suggest it was a mistake for Loye not to be in the squad.
As for Tresco...what a miss. Though personally I'd be happy to see him making big tons in country cricket for a while (like the one last week) before he starts worrying about the sorry international scene again.
Also...the West Indies match would now seem to be a massive game.
Complain about this postI believe there should be an enquiry into how a failed one day coach and a failure as a one day captain/one day batsman were allowed to lead England into this world cup. But the enquiry should be made not into Fletcher and Vaughan but into the ECB itself. For all those pundits and players who said four games to victory were as delusional as Sven or even Graham Taylor. Vaughan, Bell and Strauss should never be allowed to play for the national team's one day XI again. Personally I would try at least one or both of the best 20/20 openers this summer and let them play all the following 12 months one day games. Flintoff should bat at 8 or 9. I'm glad its all over we played four test nations and lost all four. This was probably one of English sport's worst hour's and only 20 months since the ashes glory. Shane Warne for the supremo job but as he's a winner and with the boys from the MCC in charge dont hold your breath!
Complain about this postI cant believe some poms arrogance that guy Steve is a classic example stating England would have won the World Cup with a little support. That kind of thinking has gotten you to where you are right now. NOWHERE. The game is a team gameand no one is bigger than the team.
Complain about this postI'm looking forward to four years of cobbled together one day teams and a similar England effort at the next world cup.
The CB series win was the worst thing to happen to England. If they had not made the CB finals they would have made some radical changes for the world cup.
I can't beileve they kept playing Flintoff at six when his batting was shot. They should have tried moving the batting order around.
England are such a bunch of cowards. I'd rather they were 30 all out than see them tediously cobble together 210 whuch seemed to be their batting strategy.
I suppose it's on to the English summer now - which will be watched by on TV by 19 people as the ECB sold all the live cricket to Sky.
Complain about this postGoing into detail player-by-player to see where it went wrong:
Vaughan - has almost destroyed the fine reputation he established as a player, as a captain and as a spokesperson for the team. Something happened between Australia and the Caribbean where he went from being the only one prepared to admit things had gone horribly wrong in Oz (Flintoff still the worst captain to ever attend an England press conference) to the man who forever felt England were "one good performance away". It never came and surely he must announce his retirement from ODIs now. Concentrate on the Test stuff he must do, but most importantly he needs runs. And soon.
Strauss - The man to miss out due to lack of form, since coming back has looked to be playing himself back into form. No real long term concerns, should be made captain of England's ODI side following Vaughan's expected retirement.
Bell - So much promise, yet so eternally disappointing. May have a real challenge on his hands in keeping his place in both forms of the game, but probably just about safe after consideration. Needs to get a ODI ton, as well as a hundred against a top Test side.
Joyce - Clearly not ready for this stage yet and in terms of his game may end up enjoying more success in the Test format. Still unlucky to be dropped, mainly due to the fact that it was either him or the captain for the chop. Would Loye have been a better bet?
Pieterson - Quite simply, so far the best England player it is actually quite frightening. All the silly grumbles (selfish, conceited, not a team player) still don't hide the fact that he is one of the best players in the game right now and that England should be proud to have him, even if he does at times come across as a bit of a prat. One day a side is going to be on the end of a very big score, a big double or even triple hundred. And they won't necessarily be a minnow...
Collingwood - Thoroughly admirable bloke, will stay as a key player in both formats, make him vice captain in ODIs. May be required to do a bit more bowling in Tests as well.
Bopara - Something of a find, like the cut of his gib. Useful bowler (ask Mike Hussey), gutsy middle order batsman, may be challenging for a Test place come the summer.
Flintoff - Irresponsibility and pedalos aside, there are two things that cannot be disputed about Fred a) he has a heart the size of a mountain and b) he is one hell of a bowler. His efforts in the futile and frankly embarrassing defence of an inadequate score against South Africa were the best example of a player that should now be regarded as one of the world's premier fast bowlers, opening in both forms of the game. As an all-rounder he has now proved himself to be more of a Shaun Pollock than a Botham or Imran, but a place at 7 in a side whose top 6 shows some idea of having a clue would give him the sort of freedom to play his natural game that Gilchrist has benefitted so well from. Will never be given the chance to captain again and for all his admirable qualities that is undoubtedly A GOOD THING.
Nixon - Oh Grandad we love you! But like all old people, he won't be with us for much longer. Justified his selection with plucky batting, confident keeping and by generally annoying the hell out of his opponents, his success showed that the WK place is there for whoever wants it, be they Davies or Foster or whoever.
Plunkett - How much did being caught out on the razz while already being on a DD charge affect him being dropped after a couple of games and never seen again? It was a stupid decision, he is a far more capable bowler than some (more of that later) and should be encouraged to improve on his already sometimes lethal bowling and his promise with the bat.
Mahmoud - Quite simply no. He really is a player who has taken the phrase "putting the ball in the right areas" too literally. OK so he roughed up the Bangladeshis, but in general an absolute liability. An option in Test cricket, but should never hold a white ball for England again!
Anderson - Not the worst bowler in world cricket, but nowhere near being the best. Has become almost the Matthew Hoggard of England's ODI team, fairly steady and the man to open the bowling come what may. That may end up being his role in all forms of the game once our favourite farmer calls it a day, but he still has a long way to go before he reaches the standards set by the Hogg.
Panesar - Bowled well in patches, overall our second best bowler after Fred, but needs to bowl more like he does in Tests and less like Fletcher wants him to (like Ashley Giles basically). No longer an embarrassment in the field despite throwing like a girl (sorry ladies) but one has to hope he will keep his natural enthusiasm despite being part of this collective shower.
Dalrymple - What's the point in persevering with someone for ages, going on about what they have to give and then after a couple of matches just dropping them like a stone? Bowled and batted with utter ineptitude, but perhaps deserved better than being cast out completely after two matches after showing so much fight in the 12 months preceeding. On reflection not good enough overall.
Lewis - Contributed nothing, other than going out on a bender, being photographed with some lovely ladies and then playing the attentive father-to-be by flying back to make up for it.
Broad - Didn't get a chance. One for the future though.
Fletcher - A great servant, but his time has come. Time to go.
Next England Coach - Tom Moody, or if we can't get him, Peter Moores (very much a second choice)
Next England Test Team
Strauss
Cook
Vaughan (c)
Pieterson
Collingwood
Bell
Flintoff
Foster
Hoggard
Harmison
Panesar
Next England ODI Team
Benning
Bell
Strauss (c)
Pieterson
Collingwood
Bopara
Flintoff
Foster
Broad
Anderson
Panesar
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Complain about this postWell said Aggers... at least no-one can now hide behind a brave but gallant failure!!!
Complain about this postEngland's total inability to change things that weren't working has proved their downfall in this tournament. Replacing Dalrymple with Bopara and then Joyce with Strauss was only re-arranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic - the basic plans were completely inadequate for the conditions and the opposition.
That must be down to the coach & captain - Fletcher's position is now surely untenable: a sad end to 8 years of genuine improvement under his tutelage.
Vaughan cannot stay in the one-day side, I agree... but where are the players to replace some of the other under-achievers. Surely no-one can point to players who were crying out to be selected but were overlooked.
In the final analysis, no-one can be surprised that England failed to make the last four - I don't think many of us expected it. It is the manner of the elimination that has left me wondering whether the 2005 Ashes win will prove to be another false dawn for English cricket
Lets be honest...englands one-day performance in australia was a one-off too as another article on this site says. We won the correct tosses when it mattered and had the right conditions for our bowlers who are predominantly swing bowlers. But the team at the moment has not got the confidence nor ability in my view. The younger players are there with the talent, and this will come through in later years, but the team at the moment is mediocre and was successful in Ashes 2005 as it was high on confidence, fortunate with Aussie injuries and lack of form, conditions, and flintoff in his pomp, of which we will never see again
Complain about this postPEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME!!!
Complain about this postPoster 2 : thats a very good point.
When was the last time England won a one-day series and put together a string of good results?
Answer - The CB Series when KP was injured for the majority of it.
------------------
On the game today, what a shambolic performance. Vaughan has repeatedly stated that everything would be alright on the night and England would stand up and be counted.
Just like the football team, they are found wanting when it really matters. The correlation between the football, rugby and cricket teams is not coincidental and there is definetly a mentality problem there embedded within our sporting society.
Rather than playing to win, these English teams are more afraid of failure due to the ravenous nature of our gossip-hungry media.
I beleive it's time for Vaughan to stand down as England captain and for England to lose some of the dead wood. A fit-again trscothick will add some much needed impetus and attacking-intent to the batting up top. Get rid of Nixon and get a young wicket-keeper in and generally experiment by blooding some exciting new attacking youngsters that might actually take this form of the game by the scruff of the neck.
Flectcher should be allowed to see out the remainder of his contract in the summer, which should give the selectors plenty of time to appoint a new coach, and give Shane Warne the coaching role for as much money as he wants.
It has been said numerous times, but the English don't seem to be taking it in. They were seeded 7th for this tournament, and according to their ranking reached the super eights, which is what they should have done. They were outclassed by better sides who are higher than them in the rankings for a reason.
Back to the drawing board, bring in some talented youngersters and improve that ranking in time for the next biggie.
Complain about this postto the team ...
I've really enjoyed this World Cup and I'm looking forward to the remainder. If you'll forgive me for seeming to gloss over the sad death of Bob Woolmer, it's been a fantastic event to watch from home (crowd numbers hasn't been an issue from the telly!) and I've enjoyed England being a part of it.
You, selected for the England team, should remain proud of what you achieve - even if it doesn't seem much in other's eyes. Gone are the days when we could hope to dominate consistently, but I think that expectation is still there. We know, although we find it hard to admit, that the level playing field gets wider. Same in rugby, football, athletics etc. - but remember that these things go in phases. You'll continue to do your best and we'll enjoy it.
I know that you're way, way more disappointed in your own performances than we couch-potatoes, or commentators, jounrnalists and pundits could be, but, please, remain proud of being part of such an exciting competition and continue to be magnamimous in defeat by what, at the moment (!) are better teams.
Whatever angry comments or knee-jerk reactions there are, or changes forced on the set-up, don't be downhearted. You still have my, and thousands of others', utmost admiration. Thanks for doing what you do. I love the game and I love having England involved.
(and I really mean that - I'm not being sarcastic)
Commiserations, have one for me, better luck next time and I'm looking forward to seeing you at Old Trafford.
Ged.
Complain about this postUntil the ECB realise that the number of overseas players in the game is killing the development of English players we don't have a chance of establishing England as a world force. How many English players play in Australian state cricket? None! How many English players play in the equivalent competions in South Africa, India, Pakistan etc. Probably none. Time for a rethink!
Complain about this postGoing into detail player-by-player to see where it went wrong:
Vaughan - has almost destroyed the fine reputation he established as a player, as a captain and as a spokesperson for the team. Something happened between Australia and the Caribbean where he went from being the only one prepared to admit things had gone horribly wrong in Oz (Flintoff still the worst captain to ever attend an England press conference) to the man who forever felt England were "one good performance away". It never came and surely he must announce his retirement from ODIs now. Concentrate on the Test stuff he must do, but most importantly he needs runs. And soon.
Strauss - The man to miss out due to lack of form, since coming back has looked to be playing himself back into form. No real long term concerns, should be made captain of England's ODI side following Vaughan's expected retirement.
Bell - So much promise, yet so eternally disappointing. May have a real challenge on his hands in keeping his place in both forms of the game, but probably just about safe after consideration. Needs to get a ODI ton, as well as a hundred against a top Test side.
Joyce - Clearly not ready for this stage yet and in terms of his game may end up enjoying more success in the Test format. Still unlucky to be dropped, mainly due to the fact that it was either him or the captain for the chop. Would Loye have been a better bet?
Pieterson - Quite simply, so far the best England player it is actually quite frightening. All the silly grumbles (selfish, conceited, not a team player) still don't hide the fact that he is one of the best players in the game right now and that England should be proud to have him, even if he does at times come across as a bit of a prat. One day a side is going to be on the end of a very big score, a big double or even triple hundred. And they won't necessarily be a minnow...
Collingwood - Thoroughly admirable bloke, will stay as a key player in both formats, make him vice captain in ODIs. May be required to do a bit more bowling in Tests as well.
Bopara - Something of a find, like the cut of his gib. Useful bowler (ask Mike Hussey), gutsy middle order batsman, may be challenging for a Test place come the summer.
Flintoff - Irresponsibility and pedalos aside, there are two things that cannot be disputed about Fred a) he has a heart the size of a mountain and b) he is one hell of a bowler. His efforts in the futile and frankly embarrassing defence of an inadequate score against South Africa were the best example of a player that should now be regarded as one of the world's premier fast bowlers, opening in both forms of the game. As an all-rounder he has now proved himself to be more of a Shaun Pollock than a Botham or Imran, but a place at 7 in a side whose top 6 shows some idea of having a clue would give him the sort of freedom to play his natural game that Gilchrist has benefitted so well from. Will never be given the chance to captain again and for all his admirable qualities that is undoubtedly A GOOD THING.
Nixon - Oh Grandad we love you! But like all old people, he won't be with us for much longer. Justified his selection with plucky batting, confident keeping and by generally annoying the hell out of his opponents, his success showed that the WK place is there for whoever wants it, be they Davies or Foster or whoever.
Plunkett - How much did being caught out on the razz while already being on a DD charge affect him being dropped after a couple of games and never seen again? It was a stupid decision, he is a far more capable bowler than some (more of that later) and should be encouraged to improve on his already sometimes lethal bowling and his promise with the bat.
Mahmoud - Quite simply no. He really is a player who has taken the phrase "putting the ball in the right areas" too literally. OK so he roughed up the Bangladeshis, but in general an absolute liability. An option in Test cricket, but should never hold a white ball for England again!
Anderson - Not the worst bowler in world cricket, but nowhere near being the best. Has become almost the Matthew Hoggard of England's ODI team, fairly steady and the man to open the bowling come what may. That may end up being his role in all forms of the game once our favourite farmer calls it a day, but he still has a long way to go before he reaches the standards set by the Hogg.
Panesar - Bowled well in patches, overall our second best bowler after Fred, but needs to bowl more like he does in Tests and less like Fletcher wants him to (like Ashley Giles basically). No longer an embarrassment in the field despite throwing like a girl (sorry ladies) but one has to hope he will keep his natural enthusiasm despite being part of this collective shower.
Dalrymple - What's the point in persevering with someone for ages, going on about what they have to give and then after a couple of matches just dropping them like a stone? Bowled and batted with utter ineptitude, but perhaps deserved better than being cast out completely after two matches after showing so much fight in the 12 months preceeding. On reflection not good enough overall.
Lewis - Contributed nothing, other than going out on a bender, being photographed with some lovely ladies and then playing the attentive father-to-be by flying back to make up for it.
Broad - Didn't get a chance. One for the future though.
Fletcher - A great servant, but his time has come. Time to go.
Next England Coach - Tom Moody, or if we can't get him, Peter Moores (very much a second choice)
Next England Test Team
Strauss
Cook
Vaughan (c)
Pieterson
Collingwood
Bell
Flintoff
Foster
Hoggard
Harmison
Panesar
Next England ODI Team
Benning
Bell
Strauss (c)
Pieterson
Collingwood
Bopara
Flintoff
Foster
Broad
Anderson
Panesar
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Complain about this postIt may seem a like a kneejerk reaction to suggest that Fletcher should go, but let's not forget that the core of this side has just been wupped 5-0 in an Ashes series. In the 90's / early 00s we had a couple of fairly serious kickings from the Aussies but this winter's exploits are exceptional. I think most supporters would agree that it's the denial that irritates most - it's a bit insulting. We can see that we're not playing well and haven't shown anything to suggest we can.
However, I strongly support the idea that Duncan Fletcher should be retained as a selector - he's got a really strong eye for top batting talent (Tres, Strauss, Cook). He's a bit blind when it comes to 'keepers and spinners but he's given us more than many recent coaches. Not sure we can tempt him to forsake Cape Town for a summer traipsing round watching county cricket though ....
Complain about this postjust a thought about the debacle today....
how come everyone has been talking about our batting order being wrong, but our bloody minded team and coaching staff have steadfastly refused to change course midway through???
I think the captain of the Titanic had the same phobia about changing course midway through a hourney and look where it got him!!!
I still think leaving Mal Loye behind has proved to be the biggest mistake....maybe we should have left Ed with the Irish....erm hang on, they may have beaten is if he had :o/
Complain about this postGoing into detail player-by-player to see where it went wrong:
Vaughan - has almost destroyed the fine reputation he established as a player, as a captain and as a spokesperson for the team. Something happened between Australia and the Caribbean where he went from being the only one prepared to admit things had gone horribly wrong in Oz (Flintoff still the worst captain to ever attend an England press conference) to the man who forever felt England were "one good performance away". It never came and surely he must announce his retirement from ODIs now. Concentrate on the Test stuff he must do, but most importantly he needs runs. And soon.
Strauss - The man to miss out due to lack of form, since coming back has looked to be playing himself back into form. No real long term concerns, should be made captain of England's ODI side following Vaughan's expected retirement.
Bell - So much promise, yet so eternally disappointing. May have a real challenge on his hands in keeping his place in both forms of the game, but probably just about safe after consideration. Needs to get a ODI ton, as well as a hundred against a top Test side.
Joyce - Clearly not ready for this stage yet and in terms of his game may end up enjoying more success in the Test format. Still unlucky to be dropped, mainly due to the fact that it was either him or the captain for the chop. Would Loye have been a better bet?
Pieterson - Quite simply, so far the best England player it is actually quite frightening. All the silly grumbles (selfish, conceited, not a team player) still don't hide the fact that he is one of the best players in the game right now and that England should be proud to have him, even if he does at times come across as a bit of a prat. One day a side is going to be on the end of a very big score, a big double or even triple hundred. And they won't necessarily be a minnow...
Collingwood - Thoroughly admirable bloke, will stay as a key player in both formats, make him vice captain in ODIs. May be required to do a bit more bowling in Tests as well.
Bopara - Something of a find, like the cut of his gib. Useful bowler (ask Mike Hussey), gutsy middle order batsman, may be challenging for a Test place come the summer.
Flintoff - Irresponsibility and pedalos aside, there are two things that cannot be disputed about Fred a) he has a heart the size of a mountain and b) he is one hell of a bowler. His efforts in the futile and frankly embarrassing defence of an inadequate score against South Africa were the best example of a player that should now be regarded as one of the world's premier fast bowlers, opening in both forms of the game. As an all-rounder he has now proved himself to be more of a Shaun Pollock than a Botham or Imran, but a place at 7 in a side whose top 6 shows some idea of having a clue would give him the sort of freedom to play his natural game that Gilchrist has benefitted so well from. Will never be given the chance to captain again and for all his admirable qualities that is undoubtedly A GOOD THING.
Nixon - Oh Grandad we love you! But like all old people, he won't be with us for much longer. Justified his selection with plucky batting, confident keeping and by generally annoying the hell out of his opponents, his success showed that the WK place is there for whoever wants it, be they Davies or Foster or whoever.
Plunkett - How much did being caught out on the razz while already being on a DD charge affect him being dropped after a couple of games and never seen again? It was a stupid decision, he is a far more capable bowler than some (more of that later) and should be encouraged to improve on his already sometimes lethal bowling and his promise with the bat.
Mahmoud - Quite simply no. He really is a player who has taken the phrase "putting the ball in the right areas" too literally. OK so he roughed up the Bangladeshis, but in general an absolute liability. An option in Test cricket, but should never hold a white ball for England again!
Anderson - Not the worst bowler in world cricket, but nowhere near being the best. Has become almost the Matthew Hoggard of England's ODI team, fairly steady and the man to open the bowling come what may. That may end up being his role in all forms of the game once our favourite farmer calls it a day, but he still has a long way to go before he reaches the standards set by the Hogg.
Panesar - Bowled well in patches, overall our second best bowler after Fred, but needs to bowl more like he does in Tests and less like Fletcher wants him to (like Ashley Giles basically). No longer an embarrassment in the field despite throwing like a girl (sorry ladies) but one has to hope he will keep his natural enthusiasm despite being part of this collective shower.
Dalrymple - What's the point in persevering with someone for ages, going on about what they have to give and then after a couple of matches just dropping them like a stone? Bowled and batted with utter ineptitude, but perhaps deserved better than being cast out completely after two matches after showing so much fight in the 12 months preceeding. On reflection not good enough overall.
Lewis - Contributed nothing, other than going out on a bender, being photographed with some lovely ladies and then playing the attentive father-to-be by flying back to make up for it.
Broad - Didn't get a chance. One for the future though.
Fletcher - A great servant, but his time has come. Time to go.
Next England Coach - Tom Moody, or if we can't get him, Peter Moores (very much a second choice)
Next England Test Team
Strauss
Cook
Vaughan (c)
Pieterson
Collingwood
Bell
Flintoff
Foster
Hoggard
Harmison
Panesar
Next England ODI Team
Benning
Bell
Strauss (c)
Pieterson
Collingwood
Bopara
Flintoff
Foster
Broad
Anderson
Panesar
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Complain about this postToday's result against South Africa put us out of our long misery. It was for the best
Complain about this postEmbarrassing! After each shameful, inept performance we get the same old story from the team. "We feel worse about it than you do" but how can they if they never dig in, and put in the effort next time out! Form may be temporary but hard work and basic common sense shouldn't be but all we hear is "we can take the positives from this". Far too many so called professionals spending their lives with rose tinted glasses, being whisked from event to event, form luxury hotel to luxury hotel and what is the result of this? "Well getting bored" We give the shirt to someone who cares about what it means and recognises it as the honour it should be. Perhaps its also time for our fans to forget their instinctive dislike of football chants 1,2,3, "Your not fit to wear the shirt!" Listening once again to England being cheered from the stands for lucky edges that just make it through the slips instead of booed off the park shows we are far too accepting of failure in cricket!
Complain about this postTime and time again this page as been used to routinely critise the England team.I for one are totally fed up with Jonathan Agnew and the TMS team for their comments.The England team are NOT A JOKE maybe they could at times have played better but if they are a joke then where does that leave India and Pakistan who never got to the super eight stage.Michael Vaughan made a comment about what has been said about the England team yeaterday during his press conference and I for one am not suprised because basically TMS as done nothing but snipe and be nasty about the England team for sometime.They never talk England up or say anything possitive.They always talk the opposition up well if they didn`t know the BBC is the British Broadcasting Corporation and it is about time they supported England.Some of the comments especially about Monty are just plan spiteful and they are certainly not funny.
Complain about this postMaybe it is about time the BBC Cricket Correspondant was replaced with someone who was pro England.Also remember when talking about Muralitharan the rules where changed so he could carry on James Kirtley had to go away and remodal his action.Most people I know think Muralitharan and Malinga should have been band from ever playing cricket and I for one are hoping that Sri Lanka don`t make the final.At the beginning of this report Jonathan Agnew made a remark that England didn`t deserve a place in the semi finals the truth is if it had been up to the TMS team et al then the super 8 would have been Pakistan,India,Australia,Sri Lanka,South Africa and New Zealand with the suprise team being Kenya.
England's negative approach reflects thier whole physche. Against weak opposition it may be fine to ensure you get a good base, but to win the world cup and defeat the best ranked team going into these championships positive thoughts were a necessity. What resulted was a decision to bat and then defend against losing wickets, against top class bowling attacks the risks are obvious and today this happened where we had a base to launch a last 10 over assault but were unable to do so.
When Australia embarked on a positive approach to test cricket, scoring over 3.5 runs per over, critics thought them arrogant, no all accept the need to play at this level. All can see from Australia's record that this approach caused them some embarrising test defeats but in the main they won most matches, they did not allow some bad defeats to sway them from their objectives.
As with one day internationals a new approach is needed by England and the desire to stick to those objectives whether or not they fail from time to time.
I am sure that if England had played positively throughout the tournament and got bowled out today for 160 playing positively the reaction would have been more symphathetic than the drab and negative approach adopted.
Change is a must, a new coach and a new one day captain is a good start.
Complain about this postWhat do the good teams have that England don't? - Batsmen at the top of the order who are positive and England must realise thet have to play like that after this debacle.
Complain about this postAwful, that was so sad. I'm afraid it's systamatic of all our life styles now that we're far to pampered that real graft is now history and it shows in our sports'men. So much news is about things that are so trivial really.
On the cricket I suppose to make the best use of what we've got. I'd go with Tom Moody as coach, Fletch's times up. In one day cricket I'd go for,
Loye
Prior
Flintoff
Pieterson
Collingwood
Blackwell
Shah
Bopara
Broad
Panesar
Anderson
We need to get a team to dominate. Loye in to stop gap for Trescothick. Batting a long way down and strong bowling up front. At least we can only go up from here?!
Complain about this postIt is unwise to respond to failure by instant sackings when on reflection the problems may stem from deep roots in the organisation of English cricket.
Record books tell us that until about 25 years ago our top cricketers played vastly more cricket, with six days a week of first class cricket and bowlers routinely taking over 100 wickets a season, and sometimes 200. Practice makes perfect, weeds out the injury prone, and provides the vital platform of confidence.
A system which elevates a select few to central contracts and then denies them match practice in an emaciated county championship simply guarantees that our top players will lose form, lose confidence, be criticised be Aggers, and be replaced by another promising group of players who will suffer exactly the same fate.
We should note that the Indian cricket authorities have already reached the same conclusion, and will in future require their stars to play much more in their domestic game in order to maintain their form instead of living off past reputations.
Furthermore, overseas players and cricket migrants like Pieterson provide short term advantages which are far outweighed by the long term consequences. Naturally counties hire star
players. These occupy key roles in teams, are employed to hog the batting and bowling, and inevitably reduce the opportunities for the development of English players to a far greater extent than their small numbers imply.
A final point: to some extent England are always likely to be at a disadvantage in one day cricket. Agressive batting is a supreme advantage in the one day game, and that style of batting is a natural development on fast hard true wickets, which are rare in England. Traditionally English wickets are far more varied and tricky, and demand more cautious batting.
Complain about this postOne positive - Paul Collingwood. The only one who applied himself out in the middle. KP? I am still not sure he has the right attitude. The only reason he plays is to prove a point to the South Africans and with a mouth like his, I understand why they never picked him.
Noone should be allowed to become a super star on the back of one Ashes series win. I am afraid the word "great player" is often misused these days and the media should shoulder the blame for misleading fans into believing that a bunch of novices could actually win the coveted cup.
Vaughan's return to the team, master tactiian or not was a mistake.Not taking advantage of a hard ball and the fielding restrictions does not look like a good ploy to me whether it was made by Vaughan or Fletcher. Fletcher should go now as he has acquired British citizenship and he does not have anything else to play for.
And I won't even discuss Freddy.
Complain about this postWhy cant England pick a English coach?
Complain about this postEven worse how the hell cant you pick 12 half decent players out of a country the has a population of 60million?
Unfortunately this team hives the country fouls hope & people will not follow cricket in this country...........You think times are tuff for English cricket now, It's going to get worse before it gets better.
Well said, it is time for change, but I fear we will get more of the same in coaching terms.
My vote is for Tom Moody as coach, and David Graveney needs to be replaced too.
Would love to see Beefy involved in some way with the England team.
Complain about this postThis victory for South Africa was the sweetest i have ever witnessed. Not because i deslike England but jut one player in particular. Kevin Peitersen. Here is a guy who grew up under apartheid, benefited from the way sport was run back then and i have no doubt he probably would have played for the segregated South Africa had they been allowed to play as a whites only team. so what the new governing body introduced a quota system (which i dont agree with) that dont give him the right to constantly belittle our country at every opportunity he gets. If he had stayed with south Africa he would have been playing for the proteas anyway. And had the apartheid system remained, we would never heard of the likes of Herschell Gibbs, Makhaya Ntini, Ashwell Prince and Hashem Amla. The system is not perfect but it is a whole lot better than the one that natured Kevin Peitersen
Complain about this postI think Aggers has it partly right. England have been awful in the one-day game for years and it's time to overhaul things. I believe a new captain, coach and setup completely seperate from the test team needs to be looked at. We should look at one-day innovators such as Dermot Reeve for inspiration.
The test setup can wait. Give Duncan another 12 months to prove the ashes was a "blip" and that things are improving once all his troops are fit and healthy again.
I don't see one affecting the other - they can be treated as completely seperate teams.
Complain about this postDo we really need to wait a whole domestic season before getting rid of Fletcher? The whole incestuous, entitlement culture that bedevils English cricket revolves around him.
Complain about this postThis World Cup like the pasty two has been laughable, the fact we only managed to beat 1 other test playing nation (Bangladesh - which we tried our hardest to lose) is an absolute JOKE! Vaughan needs to go, with Collingwood as repacement skipper as he is worthy of a place in the side as a player on his own.
I would look to players like Broad, Plunkett, Steven Davies (great prospect), Adil Rashid, Benning, Bopara to take us to the next World Cup alongside Pietersen, Anderson, Simon Jones, Tres (if stable) there is the makings of a good one day side. However, the ECB must make bug changes now or else suffer another humiliating and embarassing 4 years until the next World Cup.
On another point, it is time for Fletcher to go also, his stubborness and lack of flexibility in the one day arena has restricted England greatly. By this I mean picking players like Bell, Strauss, Mahmood, Vaughan, Dalrymple, Geraint Jones and Tim Bresnan to name but a few who aren't good enough one day players to perform on the international stage.
Oh and Flintoff looks a beaten man whom I belive will never reach his former best due to his lack of maturity, responsibility and mental strength and capability. He has done nothing in the past two years to suggest otherwise! Perhaps he needs a few games in county cricket as a kick up the backside!
Complain about this postWell the real SA turned up tonight and against a consistently bad England team, it was no contest.
We persist with an opening pair that have not scored a ton between them. Do you think this would have been tolerated by an Oz or SAF team? Quite simply, they are not modern ODI class. The whole squad, barr Pieterson is ensconced in mediocrity! And to suggest that Bopara, Shah and the like are the future. Give me a break. The only thing they will achieve is to continue long succession of pretenders.
Now that we know Nixon cant play, who do we go back to?? Read??? Even better, our saviour Geraint...
I just cant see where the improvement comes from. England have been soooo bad for sooo long.
And as for Graveney and Fletcher and the endless defense of their crap players. Take a risk, chuck Flintoff in the opening slot and let him dash. What have you got to lose if he gets out? 5 runs in the 40th over?? Better than the usual bog start we've seen for the 10th consecutive time...
There has to be some serious flicking done post WC, both on the squad and the brains trust..
Complain about this postIts all doom and gloom!!
Finally after a 5-0 drubbing and the world cup embarrasment has JA come to his senses and agreed that fletcher needs to go. His conservative attitude to the game and failure to adapt both in the test and the one day game has cost us dearly. For example Flintoff at number 6 today with 20-odd to go? Surely Bopara would have been more stabilising?
The first 7 overs were the worst I have ever seen, except our dismal capitulation in the 2nd ashes test. But on the plus side we were never going to win it anyway, and thanks to India and pakistan not getting through we have avoided another couple of spankings.
For months I have been trying to air my frustration at the cronyismcally (is this a word?) orientated reporting of JA's view but finally he has grown some hairs on his chest. So thank you dunc for all you have done and we've had some good times.....but its time for you to take up gardening full-time but perhaps via a quick cameo on celebrity fat camp first.
Complain about this postAnother poor display, when will england learn and follow the example set by the other semi final nations. All have good power hitters at the top of the order. England are blinded by this English arrogance of the need to have stroke and text book players. Vaughan has a strike rate of next to none. Ian Bell still believes he is playing Test cricket. The top order rarely perfom and when they do, they take so long to build a platform that the pressure just builds up for the remaining order. The menatlity needs to change almost to a 20: 20 style for the top order!
Complain about this postWell, at last, it's over. England's best chance was when they has their two South Africans at the crease. Vaughan has been a 1-day passenger for too long and his captaincy doesn't merit the slot. But it's the batting of the top order which sums up England: conservative, deferential and fearful. I assume they will be selling their stories to the Sun etc when they get home.
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