Naive England pay the price
The bewildered look on the faces of England's players as they trooped off the Adelaide Oval said it all and there really is a serious doubt over whether they can recover from this devastating defeat.
This was as hapless and naive an attempt to secure a Test match as there can ever have been. The game should have been dead and buried by mid-afternoon with England moving on to Perth with the psychological points and a great deal of confidence restored.
Instead, the batsmen were cowed into submission by Shane Warne, a champion, who used all his powers and skills to beat England into submission.
England can point to Andrew Strauss's dismissal and suggest that the umpiring error that dispatched him started the slide.
There is some truth in that but I believe that the batsmen's approach was best summed up by the crazy run out of Ian Bell that followed two overs later.
Rather than respond to Paul Collingwood's well-judged call for a run, Bell twice hesitated before attempting to make his ground at the non striker's end.
It was jittery and negative at a time when England needed to be positive and full of resolve.
What followed truly beggared belief as Kevin Pietersen tried to sweep the first ball he faced from Warne and was bowled behind his legs.
Pietersen had played Warne so well in the first innings - in which he did not sweep at all - that the leg-spinner resorted to bowling from round the wicket to tie him down. This was the moment Australia knew they could win the game.
I am not sure England can bounce back from this. Steve Bull, the team psychologist, is in town, and he will be a busy man over the next week before the start of the Perth Test.
He urgently needs to establish why a group of successful cricketers, the first for 20 years to come here holding the Ashes, continues to be intimidated by the Australians.
They were intimidated on the first day at Brisbane, and again today - both times when confidence, assurance and calm were required.
Instead we saw panic and indecision, which are weaknesses Warne and co have made it their business to exploit.
I've said all along we desperately need Michael Vaughan to be fit enough to captain the side. Flintoff is a great raiser of morale and leads by example, but it's Vaughan who has the tactical understanding to beat the Aussies.
Complain about this postHow can england expect to win a test match if gilo is in the team!!! If i were big dunc i would drop him like a hot brick!!!!!!!
Complain about this postThis abject, spineless performance from England's batsmen is nothing short of a disgrace. Why are Giles and G Jones in the side? They are simply not good enough and Fletcher should carry the can for picking his favourites and not trying to engineer a bowling attack to take twenty wickets.
I, along with thousands of others, am travelling out for the final two Tests, shelling out thousands of pounds of hard-earned cash on the trip of a lifetime. England's batsmen have let down every single one of us. Only victory in Perth will make amends and I'm not holding my breath...
Complain about this postHorrific is the only way I can describe this defeat. Fletcher needs to take some blame for not picking Panesar and the inclusion of Anderson after such a poor showing in Brisbane beggars belief.
Flintoff's captaincy was lacklustre - when defending a small total in a Test Match, he should have made runs at a premium. Pack the offside field and get the bowlers to bowl 18 inches outside off stump and make the Aussies chase the ball. Once the run rate was higher, then he could attack.
Giles should never play a match for England again. It was his missed catch which ultimately laid the seeds for this ignominious defeat.
Complain about this postThis defeat is a devastating blow to England's hopes of retaining the ashes and there is a real possibility that England could go on to get hammered 5-0.
In my opinion this defeat comes down to one crucial moment when Giles dropped Ponting on 35 in the first innings. Had this chance been taken the Australian's would of been there for the taking and maybe we would be celebrating an England win.
Also, with the exception of Flintoff who is a remarkable cricketer the bowling in the second innings was at best abject. Ashley Giles showed no control whatsoever and despite his better all round game, Panesar must be considered for Perth.
Complain about this postutterly demoralising and pathetic
poor team selection, poor captaincy and a woeful performance.
we can forget the ashes
Complain about this postSpineless and feeble.
Fletcher's comments about batting to 8 are beginning to test the patience of every England supporter. The evidence is clear, he's not making runs, he's not taking any wickets, and isn't looking like it. Giles is simply a passenger, as is Anderson at the moment.
The selection of Jones over Read is looking similarly flawed.
They need to hold their hands up and admit to playing abjectly. I'm not sure about a bad hour....what about the other 3 in the morning & afternoon sessions?
Complain about this postI shall be cancelling my 12-day-old SkySports subscription; there suddenly seems very little point in the hours I intended to stay up watching such rubbish. The bowling might have been quite good, but if England hadn't bottled it, they could have batted another half dozen overs, taking the game away from Australia with them.
Complain about this postPathetic
Aggers please give your buddy and England coach this bit of paper,
all it reads is as follows
""current series stats
Anderson, Giles, Harmison 6 wickets taken, 853 conceded""
I cannot believe that I just read DF saying that he stands by playing Giles at no 8 and playing him so that they can bat till 8. This is really making me angry.
If Darren Lehman wants to coach England, then give him the job, he definately has more pedigree than Fletch.
I hope the Uk tabloids give Fletch all that he deserves.Ifhe was coaching India , there would be burning effigies of Fletch in Mumbai !
Complain about this postHopefully this carnage will now show Fletcher what is required in picking a team to WIN test matches. Giles should hopefully have played his last test, 20odd and 0, hardly any wickets and that dropped catch sum up at best a county player at the current time. All well when he had no competition but Monty has proved that a quality spinner is worth his wait in gold. Wicketkeeper is still a problem that needs sorting, I have no opinion on either Jones or Read but it must be sorted. How Flintoff cannot blame the batsmen is beyond me, some of the shot selections would not be seen on the local park let alone a Test Match. Carnage total carnage.
Complain about this postNo doubt about it, this series is going to be wrapped up in Perth and it could easily be 5-0. England just look incompetent, and last summer is such a distant memory that I'm starting to wonder if these are the same players...
Complain about this postI expected much more from this visiting England team, I really did. To their credit they did lift themselves from the embarrassment of the Gabba, and with the help of a truly excellent coin toss managed to put themselves into a position that had the potential the wipe the Gabba debacle away.
Instead, they have compounded it. Probably tenfold.
Bad umpiring decisions are irrelevant - good teams take them in their stride and move on. (And a quick note to any England supporters who might feel moved to blame the Bucknor's Strauss decision for the loss: do not forget that the appalling Kasprowicz decision gifted England the game and the momentum at Edgbaston last year. This one doesn't even come close to a square-up for that).
I think this series died today. The England players looked gutted as they walked off the field, and it would take a heraclean effort from [i]every single one[/i] of them to come back.
Well done Aussies. Ponting and his men were rightly delighted with their effort today. It truly was an outstanding performance, and anyone's sour-graped mutterings won't alter the fact.
Complain about this postWell the negative attiitude has come from the senior management. The lack of belief in players was displayed when DF chose not to select offensive bowlers such as Panesar and Saj. The only justification to choose Giles was for his ability to bat and what did he do today...thats right, Nothing!
Complain about this postSurely now we must have Panesar, Read and Plunkett restored to the side. Anderson isn't ready, Harmison is woefully lacking form and Jones has had a couple of chances and hasn't produced. I haven't got a problem with Giles in the side and the batsmen (other than the openers) have all contributed - the bowlers have been the ones misfiring, and we need to take 20 wickets. It is not rocket science and confidence needs to be restored urgently!!!
Complain about this postno doubt it was a diabolical performance...going into day 5 with 100 run lead 1 down and going on the block to the extent that 10 runs were scored in 10 overs was just a complete shambles. There was no intent to score, or even nudge singles, let alone try to dominate.
i am afraid , though, that fletcher has to carry the can for this. He sent out basically a 9 man team again, it is blatantly clear to all but the most stubborn or blind that giles and anderson are not up to it given their lack of cricket in the past year. All we hear is this number 8 obssession with fletcher yet when our top 6 fail, giles never bails us out, and when they perform its irrelevent anyway.
sorry but its time for fletcher to move on, this shambles has been down to him.
at least we wont have a long drawn out ultimately dissaapointing campaign, we now know its all over already.
Complain about this postAshley Giles: a dropped catch that would have seen off Ricky Ponting, 27 runs and 2 wickets in the match.....
.... the fact that Monty wasnt given a chance to do better is a scandal. DFlectcher (and his apologists) have set a negative tone that has permeated the overall performance.
It beggars belief that this test was lost... and the impotent bowling has a lot more to do with it both here and Brisbane than the batting.
Complain about this postI agree with your comments but without wanting to blame 1 or 2 men for the last 2 defeats, I have to say that Fletcher & to a lesser degree Flintoff have given the Aussies the psychological edge by picking Jones & Giles. The selection of Giles in particular has put England on the back foot mentally as its clearly a negative selection. England set out there stall for a draw at Brisbane & blew it & similiarly were always looking for a draw here. Now we are 2 behind & the Ashes are effectively over & if Fletcher does not rethink & understand that cricket is about playing your best specialist players rather than players who can bat a bit & bowl a bit (!!!!!!!) then I expect more of the same.
Complain about this postUtterly pathetic. Sorry, but there can be no excuses for this display, after the hard work had been done in the first two days. Honestly cannot think that Flintoff is a captain of a test side. Am highly embarrassed for the players.
Complain about this postThe decision-making of the England camp has ruined this series for everyone. Here are the bewilderigly bad decisions which have ruined my enjoyment and England's chances of retaining the Ashes:
1) Selection of Flintoff as captain. He is unproven and too many other priorities to focus on.
2) Non-selection of Panesar, Reid and Mahmud. These players are simply better than Giles, Jones and Anderson - and have all been in the team and playing well which makes the selection policy even more daft.
3) Playing decisions: why did Giles continue to
bowl over the wicket, and why did Pieterson sweep, and so on.
We have created our own downfall. How crazy we are. At least lets make the changes for the 3rd test and give ourselves a chance.
Complain about this postThis was a disgraceful display yet the manager and captain refuse to criticise anyone. According to Mr. Fletcher they wanted to be positive at all times. So is he saying that England don't have a plan 'B' when things are going badly? Instead of deciding to fight for their wickets they adopted a cavalier approach which made us think that they couldn't get off the pitch quickly enough. And to think that these guys get well paid for being brainless. Any team can lose, anyone can get out but to throw your wicket away as several of the batsmen did is unforgiveable. Today they were really rubbish.
Complain about this postApart from anything else, this result is an indictment of the whole Fletcher defensive strategy. The purpose of playing Giles and Jones was presumably to deal with just this sort of collapse, and it failed dismally. The body-language and attitude of the players was wrong from the start of the day - a return to the bad old days of rabbit-in-headlights batting for which the coach must take a large part of the blame. With his selection policy having flopped and the one-day side in its worst ever state it is worth asking exactly what Fletcher has actually achieved. The parallels with Sven are disturbing.
Complain about this postJonathan. We all saw this coming. Flintoff is just not leadership material. There was no game-plan, no learning from the mistakes of the previous test, even the field placings were atrocious. We could have gone into this series with a hungry WINNING side under an intelligent WINNING skipper but with his mates in the media behind him a half-fit Freddie took the reigns and proceeded to shoe-horn in his half-fit mates. Cue: humiliation.
Complain about this postIt was not down to "half-an-hour" in the last innings (thanks Freddie) it was down to poor team selection and, as Aggers rightly says, the wrong mentality. I thought Flintoff was supposed to be inspirational? According to him, he didn't even speak to his batsmen this morning! Outrageous.
I think you have hit the nail on the head there Aggers. There is no need to talk about the captaincy or team selection, as for four days this team did its job and did it well.
To collapse in the way that we did was awful and obviously we still have a major inferiority complex when it comes to the Australians.
Question will be asked and I personally think heads should roll. There is just no excuse for this sort of perfomance.
Complain about this postNo wonder the Aussies think this was a great Test match. The First 50 minutes today tested England's Batsmen and they were found wanting.
Sure Warne did his bit to frustrate but Stuart Clarke backed him up solidly.
Even before Strauss was wrongly given out he was chasing balls and was lucky not to have got a real edge earlier.
The throttling of our Batsmen in that first 50 minutes was remarkable. Had Lee or McGrath been at the other end to Warne at the start of play today I don't think Australia would have won.
It was the remorseless nature of dot ball after dot ball that tested nerves, led to run outs. I suspect it even caused hasty run that seemed to tweak Petersen's hamstring and which may have stopped him being able to pad up to Warne as he did in the 1st innings.
Flintoff's niggling ankle was also tested as he manfully toiled to regain some control. I only hope for the sake of more competitive matches in the series that he has not ruled himself out of bowling in Perth as a result.
Complain about this postDear Duncan (RIP the ashes),
I have saved up all year to purchase air tickets for the 3rd ashes test.
I thought after 4 days of english return to form I was in for a great trip 'unforgettable'. All I can describe englands performance in the second innings as is Gutless and devoid of all character. I fear they may not come back from this and could well be starring at a 5-0 whitwash.
What a shame, my next question is will Duncan or Gravenay refund my air fare because I would rather have Turkey and all the trimmings at home with the mother in law.....
Complain about this postThere is only one word to describe today's play
APPALLING
actually there is another
INEPT
Steve
Complain about this postWhat a shambles - i can't believe i'm reading comments from Fletcher about batting to eight, he can't be watching the same game!! We don't bat to eight with Jones, Giles and now Flintoff comes into that catagory - it's time to put faith in the top 5/6 and start picking the bowlers who can take 20 wickets in a match. Maybe Monty would'nt have won this test match for us, but after Giles dropped their captain on 30-odd, bowled like a club cricketer and was completely lost batting in the 2nd innings it's time for a change - while he's at it, give Read and Mahmood an opportunity as this XI simply do not have the firepower to win anything against the Aussies. We can only hope Vaughan is ready to provide some direction in the remaining 3 tests!!
Complain about this postWhat a bunch of grovelling wimps and cowards these England prima donnas turn out to be! Fletcher should send for Brian Close to open the batting. (Closey is only 76)
Peter Mullen
Complain about this postOh dear, I can't really put into words how irritating it is to lose a test match that should have never have been lost.
We have had warnings that this could happen. For example, in the Sri Lanka series this summer we showed that we have the ability to capitulate under pressure.
How will we get over this defeat? Drop Cook (who is perhaps too young for this Ashes tour) and put in Vaughen (must be about fit by now). Drop Giles for Monty for obvious reasons such as, Monty is the better spinner. Drop Jones for Read, because under pressure Jones has not shown that he can cope. Drop Anderson for Mahmood. Anderson has taken very few wickets and Mahmood has shown he can rip through a side on his day.
This is not a knee jerk reaction, this is just accepting that we are 2-0 down and some players have under performed. If we are to stand any chance, we must make some changes and try and force games.
I still love cricket but today was very unpleasant.
Complain about this postDrop Harmison until he relearns the basics and shows he cares (his performance in the last few overs was embarassing), bring in Mahmood (he has pride, Harmison has lost his); Drop Cook and try Bell or Joyce with Strauss (no runs and looks out of his depth); drop Jones for Read (no runs to speak of); and drop Giles unless they're going to play 2 spinners (his batting isn't worth dropping the catch that probably lost us the match and his bowling was mediocre).
Complain about this postAshley Giles 'DROPS' the Ashes.
We all remember that famous incident at Headingley in the '99 WC, when Gibbs, in his over-excitement, dropped Steve Waugh, when the Aussies were almost dead and buried. It is rumoured Steve Waugh told Gibbs that he had just 'dropped' the world cup. Australia went on to win the world cup.
At Adelaide, after England has scored 551, Australia were in some trouble. Ricky Ponting, who tormented England at Brisbane, was dropped by Ashley Giles, before he had got going. Ponting went on to score a big hundred (in the context of the match), and gave Australia the belief to chase the huge total.
Complain about this postIn the end, due to some luck and masses of self-belief, the Aussies went on to win the match by 6 wickets, and take a 2-0 lead in the Ashes.
i am utterly lost as to how England can manage to be so appalling. Why on earth Giles and Jones are in the team is beyond me. Strauss should have kept the captaincy. Fletcher needs to go and there needs to stop being this places for mates system of picking that seems to prevail!!
Complain about this postI am beginning to laugh now, we are playing like a bunch of twits...
Ashley Giles should have rescued us with a solid 50-100 but surprisingly that didnt happen. Maybe next time. But lets definitely not pick Monty, or even Saj cos that might give Australia something new to think about.
DF is allowed to make mistakes, but repeating them has cost us the Ashes. Makes me wonder why Freddie didnt say anything too ... Tis could be a 5-0 drubbing. Ouch, things couldnt be much worse.
Complain about this postThe only thing stopping a 5-0 will be the lifeless pitches and some good calls in the toss. England will be shattered by this.
They are playing a better Australian outfit (Hussey and Clark for Katich and Gillespie), away, on pitches suited to Aussie run accummulators and possibly designed to nullify our 2 most dangerous bowlers, without their inspirational captain and leading runscorer from last tour, and most successful bowler in these conditions (Jones).
Instead of 1-0 and confidence restored we are 2-0 and destroyed.
This is a sad day for English and Australian cricket fans. I didn't expect us to retain the Ashes but I hoped we would be resilient and make a game of it. In some respects we did that in this test but the impact of losing this one has killed off the series as a meaningful contest.
A real shame, the only upshot being that it should see the back of the post 2005 cricket fan who reckons that Flecher should be sacked and every time we lose a match we should axe the four players who underperform.
Complain about this postThe real turning point was on the 4th day when England couldn't press home the advantage after having the Aussies at 260 odd for 5. England punished themselves by not picking Panesar and are now paying for it.
No point harping on about the umpiring for Strauss' dismissal. Pietersen had a reprieve in Brisbane and also got away with one in Adelaide.
Wholesale changes are required but at this point it will only signal to the Aussies that all their best laid plans came to nothing and now it's just a case of hoping for the best.
Giles, Anderson, Jones out. Mahmood, Panesar and Read in. That would be the team most people would have picked at the start of the tour anyway, apart from Fletcher.
Complain about this postHave to agree with your comments entirely JA. What a nightmare!
As badly as England batted the Aussies played damn good, I don't think we should blame any one player but for the next test I think with have to play to win; we've got nothing left to loose!
I think about 99% of people have called for the inclusion of Monty, the problem now is that we'll expect him to win it for us, so no pressure then! If we'd picked him being 1 nil down the pressure on him to succeed would have been there, but at 2 nil he's on a hiding to nothing.
Harmison looked pretty hapless as did Anderson, but should we replace the two? Who knows! Then there's the Jones vs. Read scenario... Well at least Collingwood showed some bottle, hopefully some of the other players can take a leaf out of his book.
Complain about this postPassion, Desire, Belief and Leadership. How many times have these qualities been missing from England performances in three of our top sports Cricket, Rugby and Football recently?!
The most depressing thing about it is that we have some talented individuals who our coming short when it comes to playing for their nation. The supposed highlight of their careers!
ENGLAND I DESPIRE!!
Complain about this postAbsolutely disgusting.....they laid down to be beaten....the team needs a big shake up....there are two people playing on reputation, and one that seems to be there to bolster the case for a 'proactive youth policy'.
Giles and Harmison need to be dropped - Giles looked no threat whatsoever, averages over 40 with the ball and doesnt turn it. Harmison is supposedly 'quick' - he threw it down at about 135km/h in the final all important Australian run chase. Anderson doesn't know where his next delivery is going.
I feel sorry for Freddie - he has no backing from his bowling, apart from the ever reliable Hoggard. They didnt show any fight in the last innings, and rolled over - extremely disappointing for the holders of the Urn.
Positives - Jones keeping - excellent I thought. Cook looked like he has good technique, Collingwood of course, Pieterson when he has his eye in, Bell's temperament (apart from the run out).....
Cheers
Complain about this postAB
It's all too easy to say it's over... we're going into the next test knowing it's make or break- that means throwing everything into a win. Momentum wins cricket matches. Australia may have it now, but a win in the third test and it's advantage England with just one win in two needed. Unlikely, yes, but it's certainly not over...
Complain about this postWHy are we playing Jones, when sitting in Perth is the best batting wicket-keeper in Matt Prior whose average was over 50 last seasoon and can also keep wicket better than Jones. Let's say good bye to the negative duncan fletcher!!!!
Complain about this postFletcher is obsessed with batting down to Number 8 but seems to forget that England also need to get wickets. If you can't get the opposition out then the best you can do is draw and playing for a draw is, oft as not, the way to lose.
England need a better balance in the side, Fletcher needs to trust his batsmen to bat and select another attacking bowler. The best he has at his disposal is Panesar and he needs to play. If you want to play Panesar and you also need to play Read. Given that Jones is hardly causing the scorer to resort to removing his shoes and socks you might as well pick the keeper most likely to attack the opposition batsmen.
If Fletcher can't bring himself to drop his favourite players then we have to wonder if he is the right man to have at the helm. This isn't the summer of 2005 - it is the Winter of 2006 and we have different players and a different problem to solve.
Complain about this postAggers - everyone is talking about the "monty" issue. You have evaded it again. He is, according to DF, the best finger spinner in the world. You support the Giles decision not because of the runs he makes, but he can contain an end and occupy the crease so that someone else can make the runs. He did neither.
DF is unrepentent. Like Robinson for the rugby he is displaying an amazing sense of arrogance in his inability to see the truth - Ashley Giles has never been a test match winner and never will be. DF's selection of him over Monty was a mistake and he should admit it.
This is the most depressing day for English cricket that I can remember. And I am 39.
Complain about this postDuncan Fletcher said that Giles was in for his batting, so England could bat right down to number 8 like the Aussies do with Warne, the problem with that is that Warne is a match winning bowler which Giles is not, so they should give up his 20 or 30 runs that he gets to bring in a possible match winning bowler in Panasar.
Complain about this postThe other problem with playing Giles is that the Aussies are not frightened to come out to face him were as if Panasar is playing, he is an unknow quantity and will put dout in the Aussies batsmens mind.
The knives are out for Ashley Giles, but it wasn't him who was foolish in trying to slog Warne on that pitch so early in his innings, or who got himself run out. OK, Giles may have prevented England from winning, but he didn't cause the defeat. Did Panesar even bowl well in the warm up games? I don't think so.
Complain about this postVery, very poor. What were they thinking? Some of the shots played were awful.
Giles will get a lot of stick but it is not his fault that Fletcher prefers a spinner that can't spin the ball or take wickets. I think Fletcher should just come out and say that he does not rate Monty. It is very worrying that the bowlers are picked based on their batting ability rather than their ability to take wickets
You would hope changes would be made for the Perth test but somehow I doubt it and it will be same again.
Complain about this postCome on we can't blame the captain! It was the second innings batting that lost us the game.
If we blame anyone it's the coaching staff, especially Fletcher as he picks the team.
Complain about this postI have to admit I wasn't completely surprised when I woke up at 5.45 this morning to see Australia 20-1 chasing a target of only 168. The fact that there was only 4 overs left when they won really does make me wonder why we left Panesar out. Surely he would have helped stem the flow of runs in that final session.
I only have the highlights to go by, but I get the impression that Harmison's bowling was much improved, so I'd stick with him. Hoggard was top man - so rarely lets us down. If Perth takes spin I'd play Giles & Panesar, if it doesn't I'd play Anderson or Mahmood & Panesar.
Should Vaughan come back into the side, the player I'd leave out at the moment is Andrew Strauss - he's out of form and getting out stupidly too often, although all the batsmen (Collingwood excepted) have been guilty of getting themselves out it seems in this test. Is there a case for bringing Ed Joyce in for Strauss anyway?
Hopefully Freddie's ankle will be ok with a weeks rest - if not, then we really are in trouble.
Coming back from 2-0 down is going to be a very tough ask, and we really need to not panic like we did today and on the first day at Brisbane.
Complain about this postI cant believe what happened in the cricket today. I am a pom living in Australia now for the last 21 yrs. I hope they can show some fight in the next 3 tests. Selection for Perth- Give rid of the very average Anderson for Mahmood in Perth and also bring in Plunkett for Giles. Lets try and win one test anyway and hopefully draw the series. We have to make it happen quick.
Complain about this postGO ENGLAND - hold your head up Freddie.
Michael Vaughan is a big miss..this is true..even if he cant bat hed be more use than James Anderson...his tactical prowess would ensure 20 wickets. I also cannot believe that Jones is picked for his "temperament"..he was just swiping stupidly at everything and dont get me started on Giles.......Flethcer's got to go...Bring on the MONTSTAR!!!
Complain about this postFlintoff is a great talisman for the england squad, so why give him the added responsibilty of captaincy? Strauss has the better, clamer, cricketing brain.
Complain about this postA typical England collapse i'm afraid, we are a good team, and this was down to nerves. Collingwood again displayed the qualities that need to surface in the rest of the batting order if we are to take advantage of situations we have worked hard, and played well, to get in to.
Now we HAVE to attack Australia, so come on, give us an attacking bowler, send the message!! Put Panaser in and at least have a go at them now!!
Woke up this morning hoping we had got a resonable score and then put them in for 30 overs. Can't believe we only scored 129 after being 59-1. But i put it down to the first innings declaration. Why did we declare on 551. Why didn't we bat them out of the game on a ground where they hardly fail to score 400 on. 600 + should have been the target, Ponting delcared on 602 in the first test why are we so generous. Also we didn't have the bowlers to bowl them out twice so even more reason to bat longer and make them work for runs. Giles has got to go, No real control in bowling and he isn't going to take the wickets like Monty. Why pick Anderson ahead of Mahmood. Mahmood can bat at 8 and he has bowled well. Anderson has only just come back from injury and so has Giles its like England football all over again. I am gutted for Hoggy and Colly.
Complain about this postAfter listening all night on my headphones via BBC Five Live Sports Extra - this morning is as bad as it gets for an English Cricket fanatic!
The way we capitulated to this bunch of arrogant Aussies was disgraceful! To ignore the needs of the team and enter into what has become a personal running battle with Warne - as Pietersen has done - where his ego takes over from the common sense he showed in the first innings - leaves me to consider dropping him from the team! His ego has become a liability to all our hopes and aspirations for this series! We've got no chance now of retaining the Ashes!
Complain about this postdear team
devastated at todays proceeding lost their bottle it was freddie against australia today and he came out with crediblity.
giles in for his batting thats a joke, jones in for his batting joke,
i hope and pray that panesar is not selected again for the series i see no point in bringing him in now that the ashes have well and truly gone.
stick with jones and giles fletcher your gone to its only a matter of time.
selection policy is worst then pakistan at the moment.
sad day
Complain about this postbye
All said and done, I hope England & Duncan Fletcher have learned their lesson. Its really important to persist with Jones and Giles. Jones has a wonderful temprament while batting and scores big. While Giles may not be a great attacking option (which isn't really necessary in test cricket), but he can extend the tail and bat for a long time (8 balls) and save them from a situation like todays. Oh and don't risk a wayward and inconsistent bowler like Saj Mahmood for an ineffective but consistently ineffective bowler like Andersen! Go England!
Complain about this postThe batters display on final day was ill disciplined and reeked of fear. The game was still there to be won. Blame must also be on Fletchers shoulders as the ommision of Panesar for Giles backfired (again!). His excuse that he wanted batting down to number 8 is laughable. WOuld you rather have a 20 run cameo from a bowler who does not take wickets, or the potential for a bowler to take 5 wickets on final day to potentially win us a match. Makes no sense, 20 runs would not win us amatch but a 5 for would.
Complain about this postFLETCHER OUT
"I refuse to blame the batsmen" Duncan Fletcher.
What's he talking about? We were like rabbit's in headlights on a still flat pitch.
Too defensive, too negative, he can't take this side to the next level, part of which is mental.
Sorry, it's time for Bob Woolmer, and I've been saying that for some time.
Complain about this postWhat can I say? An abject performance top to bottom in the second innings which more than undid the work of Collingwood and Pietersen in the first.
Much as I admire Andrew Flintoff, he was the wrong choice to lead this Ashes squad - it is shades of what the captaincy did to Ian Botham during his reign in the 80's. And the selection throughout the series thus far has been a shambles - Jones, Giles and Anderson should not have made the First Test, never mind the Second.
The Ashes are gone, and if England are to salvage anything it must be the knowledge that they cannot attempt to win a series by trying to repeat the selection from a previous successful one. It is almost as if they are trying to reward some of the successful Ashes side of 2005, despite them being well short of form and match practice.
Complain about this postok its time to send in the A team so all you lads in scotland get your bags packed and come on down.when the poms get back on the plane can you please take the two faced tont grieg with you cause he now has no where to hide.
Complain about this postTo recover from this England need the leadership of Vaughan and if fit(??) should be drafted into the side instead of Cook. They should also drop Giles and Jones in favour of Panesar and Read. What have Giles and Jones done in the last two matches, Giles bowling is poor and Jones's batting is also poor. Fletcher needs to stop having his favourites.
Complain about this postThat was just so so depressing! I went to sleep at 1am with the score at 61/1 but the radio was still on. It woke me up at 4am and the score was 105/8. I honestly thought i was dreaming for a minute, i really couldn't believe what was going on.
Its just really sad, after the hard work of the last 4 days, to throw it all away like that must really hit the players hard. But its not as if that sort of thing hasn't happened to England before..
Sorry to sound pessimistic, but after yesterday i thought this series was just starting to bubble up and it'll really get going in Perth. Now i think its all over - today was the day when we lost the Ashes.
Complain about this postplase dont hurt me any more england.
I LOVE U MONTY PLEASE MURDER FLETCHER AND COME BACK AND SAVE ME, I AM UR DAMSEL IN DISTRESS
Complain about this postI can't believe the quotes form Mr Fletcher:
"As we've said on numerous occasions, we want to bat to eight and we think Ashley can do a better job with that," he said.
What on Earth is the point of that if we can't bowl them out?
And more:
"We wanted to play two spinners here but in that warm-up game against South Australia the seamers seemed to do a better job than the spinner."
Is it possible that the wickets for the warm up matches were not representative of those in the test matches? Surely the Aussies would never do anything so diabolical?
And yet more:
"When you consider Warne is a very good wrist-spinner and he took 86 overs to take five wickets - that summed it up."
Yes, but most of those overs were in the first innings when its accepted that spinners won't play a part. But in the last couple of days spin was very much on the menu and Giles was utterly impotent either as an attacking or defensive option while Warne had them quaking in their boots.
Fletcher is determined to go down with the ship, secure in the knowledge that he stood by his men. That would be most noble, except that it was he who holed the ship below the waterline before the series started.
Complain about this postI've been watch England for thirty years, and I can't remember a defeat like this.
A few points:
1) After this series Flintoff must hand over as captain. There was a time half way through the Australian run chase when his captaincy basically collapsed; random bowling changes after one or two overs, static fields; and you could see the impact on the morale of the England team. It was significant that the Ponting 'breakthrough' came whilst Flintoff was off the pitch and Strauss took charge.
2) We have to stop talking about Giles as if he is a front line bowler. He is a fair 'change bowler' in the mold of Bell, Pietersen or Clark for Australia, who can tempt batsman itno the occasional rash shot. But he can neither attack for susatined periods, nor provide sufficient control.
3) This was supposed to be Test where Harmison 'came good. He didn't, he wont, and the England management must accept that fact.
4) Let's not hear any rubbish about "taking positives" or Engalnd "competing". The series is over as a contest. England to do not have the personnel to take 20 Australian wickets in a Test and we must accept that fact. The remainder of this tour should be used to gradually introduce the younger players into the team to give them valuable experience and prepare for future series. There is not point in making wholesale changes in a vain attempt to salvage the Ashes. They've gone.
5) The ECB should start planning now for a thorough examination of the preperation, planning and selection procedures for this tour, in the same way Australia did when the Ashes were relinquished.
Have I missed anything...?
Complain about this postAhh
Its a great thing to be an Australian living in London right now.
Warne for PM!
Complain about this postA completely inept performance on the final day. The leading strike bowler (of recent years anyway) without a wicket in either innings, the so-called best spinner we have unable to exert any pressure and never looking threatening, a wicket-keeper who is supposed be a far better batsmen than another keeper in the squad (although his record is ridiculously poor over the last year). Take one solice in this humiliation, perhaps the coach might actually play the best players rather his favourites and be positive in his selection, afterall we have to WIN matches and TAKE 20 wickets. Monty is an absolute must, Read surely deserves a chance and why not get another unknown in like Stuart Broad to give the Aussies something to think about. Unfortunately, I foresee another negative approach from Duncan and a scared team of players succumbing to humiliation for a further 4 weeks.
Complain about this postI'm Australian. So I'm supposed to be happy. And to some extent, I am.
Complain about this postBut I must say I was very disappointed with England's performance.
What was in England player's heads were what you, Mr. Agnew said - the most boring draw of all time - after day 3!
England players did not compete nor ever tried to throughout this series. Never attacked Australia. Never tried anything innovative, even with Giles and Jones in the team. Unless they came to Australia with ambition of drawing all 5 test matches, I don't know what they are thinking.
What made me watch Cricket again was the last series. Not because Australia lost, but because it was great competition - every ball was.
I hope England can bounce back in WACA, and make something worthwhile watching.
Otherwise, it's back to Rugby and football for me.
Where do you start. Firstly well done to Australia who must be pinching themselves in disbelief. You may think up improbable scenerios in your mind but to watch them unfold so predictably is truely shocking. No other sporting nation puts their fans through mental turmoil as do England. England flatter to deceive but underlying all the reasons for this loss is English sportsman have a real mental weakness to play tough. Whether it be facing Warne or Penalty shootouts England fail. Failure that I am sick of. Embarassment is one way to describe today but I feel today was more that a simple batting collapse it was outright surrender of meak minded, over paid individuals that tarnish the rich history of English cricket. When will we become a nation unforgiving of failure, instill some backbone & send home the useless players than make up the England team starting with...
Harmison - 1 wicket in two tests
Anderson - unsuitable for Australian conditions
Giles - laughing stock
Strauss - on a final warning
Fletcher - negative & found wanting tactically
Complain about this postTHAT WAS A DISASTROUS DISPLAY BY ENGLAND. THEY WERE TOTALLY INTIMIDATED BY THE BULLYING TACTICS OF THE AUSTRALIANS AND SO WAS THE UMPIRE WHO GAVE STRAUSS OUT WHICH CAUSED THE COLLAPSE.
BUT ENGLAND HAVE THEMSELVES TO BLAME. NO GUTS, NO GLORY. ITS A FAR CRY FROM THE TEAM THAT WON THE ASHES.
THE COACH NEEDS TO MAKE SOME DRASTIC CHANGES. GERAINT JONES MUST BE REPLACED. HE CANT KEEP. MONTE PANESAR MUST BE BROUGHT IN FOR GILES AND THE TEAM PSYCHO MUST WORK ON BATSMEN WHO SIMPLY FAIL TO KEEP THEIR FOCUS ON HOW TO GET THE JOB DONE.
TRUTH TO TELL, WITH THIS BOWLING SIDE ITS HARD TO WIN A TEST AGAINST SUCH A STRONG BATTING SIDE AS THE AUSSIES.
Complain about this postNice of us to fly all the way to Australia to hand them the Ashes Urn and then stick around to play a few exhibition matches. I hope they choose to give Monty some experience of Ashes cricket in the next three matches even though it is too late. I also hope they let Freddie get on with playing and let Strauss lead this team.
Complain about this postI've never written on these things before but just had to say how unbelievably bad England are. When I turned on my car radio this morning I couldnt believe it. England are paying for being negative - Monty and Reed must be shaking their heads. Maybe they wouldnt have made a difference but at least people wouldnt have accused England of being negative. The Aussies must be laughing. The problem now is that even if Monty does come in for the next test he's under pressure straight away, which is totally unfair. It's like turning the clock back 5 years - will we never learn!
I feel sorry for Collingwood - if somene ever didnt deserve to be on the losing side it's him. Probably Englands least talented batsman but knows what it takes to hang in their and not throw away his wicket.
Complain about this postAggers,
Watching from Sydney, I echo your views but have to say (call me one eyed if necessary) that the rub of the green has not gone England's way in either Test. Although there have been two pathetic batting performances the only umpire errors have favoured Australia. Ponting twice in Brisbane, Pietersen not out lbw, Flintoff caught off a no-ball. In this Test Strauss,Harmison and Anderson, not out and then Ponting given another lbw life against Flintoff.
We won the last series by fractions despite domninating many sessions. This will be much harder especially given the outrageous appealing bey Warne, Ponting, and Co. We won also by being aggressive and the selections of Giles, Anderson and Jones plus the pathetic batting today reflect a different approach. Perhaps it is Vaughan rather than Fletcher who is the real brain.
Monty, Sajid and Chris Read must play in Perth otherwise ebay will once again be inundated with offers for tickets at the MCG and SCG
Complain about this posthaving just seen fletchers comments, honestly its laughable...does he honestly think people that know the game will swallow his excuses. he is rapidly becoming crickets sven goran ericson.
aggers, you and your media colleagues need to get your heads out of the 2005 celebrations and stop being media apologists for him...his selection and running of this tour has been nothing short of scandalous.
Complain about this postcome home now! 5-0 to those boasting aussies for sure now!
Complain about this postThe England team psychologist will indeed be busy over the next week. And the following weeks and maybe for years to come.
The effects of the psychological battering that England have taken here can't be underestimated. There'll be much wailing and gnashing of teeth for a few days accompanied by nightmares featuring Sharne Warne as an eight-armed spinning machine bowling flaming arrows across a pitch of fire, the batsmen defending their wicket with a rubber chicken.
Then follows complete nervous collapse, an inability to function on more than a basic level. Simple tasks such as eating and talking will reduce men to a gibbering wreck. And that's only us fans, just imagine what Freddie's going through right now.
Complain about this postHow can Ashley Giles be called a spinner when he can't spin the ball? My mother can turn the ball more than he can. He has hardly played any cricket for over a year was nothing special before then. What does Fletch see in him? England are like 10 men with him in the side; he was selected over Panesar for his superior fielding and batting and what happens? He drops Ponting which cost England another hundred runs and gets a duck in the 2nd innings. I accept that you need a bowler who can bat at no.8 then why not Mahmood? He has pace and potential, then you can drop Giles and pick Panesar.
Complain about this postGiles's 2 wickets cost over 150 runs and never posed much of a threat; he's painful to watch when he bowls in the rough and doesn't turn it. Panesar would have conceded fewer runs and beaten the bat a few times.
The treatment of Chris Read was also a disgrace, Jones was brought in for his superior batting yet can't get many runs and his wicket-keeping is moderate at best.
I also get the feeling that Giles and Jones have been chosen not on cricketing ability but because they are good mates of Fredy. If so then Flintoff has got what he deserved.
Harmison should have been dropped after Brisbane. So far he has taken just one wicket in the series at a cost of over 280 runs, simply shocking. I thought Fredy was the man to get the best out of him. Harmy has been in decline for the last 2 years now.
So sack Fletcher, England don't need a coach anyway, sack Flintoff and bring in Strauss as captain or Vaughan when he's fit, get rid of Harmy, Gilo and GJones and select Mahmood, Panesar and Read instead. The Ashes are probably over but it would give us cause for optimisim.
The comments of Fletcher and Flintoff after the match reflect the way England played on the last day - they were unintelligent and confused. Fletcher's stubborness is sometimes regarded as a strength but it should be remebered that his judgements about players qualities have been wrong as many times as they have been right. He is now making many errors in selection, and our "promising" bowling resources are deteriorating under his leadership. He is a spent force and must go. Flintoff's leadership seems to consist of pretending there's not much wrong and moral is high. Why can't they admit they were dreadful?
Complain about this postWe don't know what would have happened if Panesar had played but he may well have won the game for England. To hear the daft Fletcher continue to defend Giles will annoy all England fans of any intelligence.
That should signal the end of the Geraint Jones/Ashley Giles era. Both are in the team because they can allegedly bat better than more gifted competitors in their specialist skills. They are there as insurance should the stroke players, Pieterson and Flintoff, fail, as they are always likely to do given the way they play, and as insurance both failed utterly. If either had kept Collingwood company for twelve overs, say, England would have saved the match. instead jones was out to the most irresponsible stroke played by a so-called England batsman for years given the state of the innings and the state of the game, and Giles was completely out of his depth against Warne. In addition Jones dropped a catch - Michael Clarke in the final over when it didn't really matter but that made no difference to the miss, and Giles failed to give Flintoff any control with the ball. Panesar and Read in at Perth or we will lose what little credibility we have left.
Complain about this postI thought our choking days were long behind us, but our timorous display with bat today proves otherwise. I'm a fan of Fletcher and the way he has revived England's fortunes over the past seven years, but his gamble did not pay off this time. Monty should have played. He would only have made a difference in the fourth dig - and if we had batted right and not gone into our shells there would not and should not have been a fourth dig - but it may have salvaged something for us. Poor old Gilo had a shocker and my heart goes out to him; the guy will be crucified when others must take their share of the blame. I think we need to review the position of coach as selector and coach on tour, because one role sits in contradiction with the other. This is in danger of tarnishing Fletcher's excellent record, and ending Freddie's captaincy stint before its begun. We played very un-Freddie-like today. Expect the demands for Vaughan to be recalled to start now.
Feel especially sorry for Collingwood and Hoggard who did not deserve to be on the losing side.
Look at it this way Monty lovers: at least he won't carry the scars of this defeat. Unlike me, who will carry them for ever. Anyone got a spare cat to kick?
Complain about this postNigel has agood point o post 4
why was there not more inventive field placements
like he said why could there not have been a one sided field and to try and make the Aussies take some risks
Flintoff cannot captain this side, any longer
changes
Complain about this postVaughan for Giles, if for nothing than his captaincy
Panesar for Anderson
Mahmood for Harmison
Its not the first time we've snatched defeat from the jaws of victory with a horrible batting collapse and it surely won't be the last
Complain about this postEssentially Australia set out to win the game, England set out not to lose the game. There is a big difference in approach. When will we learn?
Team selection has to be questioned. To win a test match you have to take 20 wickets. Fletcher has said that Ashley Giles is in the side because his batting and fielding are better than Monty Panesar's. We might as well pack up and go home if we're picking a bloke that cannot bowl, has a batting average in the twenties and whose fielding is average. He dropped Ponting in the 30's, who then went on and scored another large century.
Anderson hasn't played in a long time and only managed to take the wicket of Glenn McGrath.
What was Jones doing playing at a wide ball from Brett Lee? I'm surprised he reached it, let alone played at it.
Get rid of Giles, Anderson and Jones. Bring in Monty, Mahmood and Reed. At least we might take some wickets...
Complain about this postWhat a travestee!
Much has been made of the team selection, but the selection of the captain has also been a route cause of our downfall.
Freddy may be a great allrounder and a great bloke, but he doesn't have the experience or the nouse to captain against Australia.
Strauss at least does have this experience, and should replace him immediately.
(I'm begging Botham/Brearley deja vue)
Complain about this postEngland beat the Aussies last year by playing postivie cricket, 30 runs in the first session put the pressure back on England. Why have they been so negative - the blames strictly lies on the door of of the management - safety first meant there was only one winner today....
Bring in Monty for Giles - how crucial was that dropped catch now? How can Aggers keep on defending the selction???
Final word on Warne - what a great bowler....best I have ever witnessed
Complain about this postThe aussies have the advantage big time now. We need clear heads and resolve. The panic in the batsmans eyes must not be seen again. Also all this talk about Giles is rubbish it took the worlds greatest ever spin bowler to exploit this track. Panasar is not the answer until he can stop costing us 50 runs an innings with his horrible fielding and score 40 to 80 runs a match. The aussies would love him and pick him out as often as possible. Get fighting lads
Complain about this postit was sad to see duncan fletcher trying to defend his selection when intervueiwd by athers after the game.
Complain about this postadmit it fletch,you got it wrong.
be a man...bring in monty,read,and botham!
Congratulations to Australia. Both teams desperately wanted to get something out of the game but the difference was that they thought the best way was to be aggressive and we took a far more negative route. Being positive doesn't mean playing rash shots, its a matter of picking the right balls to hit and also keeping the scoreboard ticking over, not allowing your opponents to gain the upper-hand. We just tried to block our way out of trouble but only succeeded in putting more pressure on ourselves and handing the advantage to the Aussies.
I agree with most people who are disapointed with the team selection in the series so far. Fletcher defends picking Giles because he thinks we need to be able to bat down to no. 8. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you have to be able to bat down to no. 7 first. Jones's reselection has been shown up to be weak. He was dropped for his loss of form and without showing any improvement was returned to the team. Absolute nonsense!
I'm down right now but I live in hope that with three test to go England are not dead in the water. It'll take a huge effort to come back but they have the ability to do it.
Complain about this postWhat a waste. England played so well on the first 2 days that it seemed that the lost at the 'Gabba was only a small bleep on the road to retaining the Ashes. And yet, when it mattered most, when they had the game safely in their keeping and with the opportunity to grind Australia's bowlers into the Adelaide dust they froze deeper than the proverbial English winter. All the psychological points they accrued over two of England's tormentors for the last decade (Warne and McGrath) on the first few days was surrendered meekly in the space of two dreary, inept and leaderless sessions of play that proved that the scars of losing so many series to Australia has become a lasting piece of the English make-up. Even if few of the current squad have played against Australia in a losing Ashes battle, they played today as if they were Nasser Hussein and Co personified. Throw in a team of Aussies with vengeance on their minds, a point to prove (ie The Dad's Army tag) and a nation willing them to do nothing but totally savage the combined psyche of the entire English Nation and you have a recipe for a five-nil thumping. Bring on Perth!!
Complain about this post"A Batting Paradise" I believe is the way Adelaide has been described for some time now. Clearly then it would have been an easy decision to play Monty in a game where we needed spin and someone to take some of the workload off the seamers.
Giles dropped the Ashes when he gave Ponting the lifeline in the 1st innings. He didn't get anywhere near making up for it because he isn't up to it.
Fletcher should go for his utter stupidity in picking a team which never had a hope of taking 20 wickets on a lifeless pitch. The batting collapse in our 2nd innings has nothing to do with my opinion. If we had drawn I would still be hopping mad at our lack of ambition from the moment the Coach/captain picked the team.
Complain about this postBefore a ball was bowled in the series, coach Duncan
Complain about this post'negative' Fletcher, gave the Aussies an early Xmas present, by omitting Monty Panesar. The Aussies were already fully pumped up to regain the famous Urn, and the early initiative had been handed to them on a plate.
To quote the obvious, to win test matches you have to take 20 wickets, and certainly Giles and Anderson are not capable of doing that, and the omission of Read in favour of Jones, was another poor call.
Congratulations to the Australians for regaining the Ashes, because that is a certainity now.
After todays depressing performance, with the exception of 3 players, all the derisory comments coming their way, from the Aussie press and media are fully merited. Unless the players show some pride in the next 3 tests, a whitewash is on the cards, and to think less than 16 months ago the same players were lapping up, the over the top adulation bestowed upon them, along with their meaningless MBE's.
This is what you call a public disgrace.
Duncan Fletcher and David Graveney should do the decent thing and resign NOW.
Complain about this postEngland got what they deserved for negative team selection and negative play. Giles and Anderson should have been dropped as you need 20 wickets to win a test- these two won't combine to take 20 wickets in all 5 test matches.
Complain about this postYou have it in a nutshell, the reason Australia won was the Best Spin bowler was taking wickets.
Hello England... This is a wake up call
Select your Best Bowler
Monty!
I blame this loss on the lack of selection, as Monty could have taken wickets on that surface.
Again, England, if you want to win in Perth, even if the conditions don't merit two spinners. You select the best bowler in your team. Even if he can't bat and field. England, the fact you left the best bowler sitting in not one, but two tests is beyond disgraceful.
Complain about this postTwo depressing points:
1. We lost
2. It didn't shut the Barmy Army up
A bad day all round!
Complain about this postStop the old habit of trying to find someone else to blame like in Strauss' questionable dismissal. What about Giles' dropped catch off Ponting to stop Aus getting so many runs in the first place? Cricket is full of mis-read umpire's decisions or missed chances.
Complain about this postWhat is needed is full-on belief and whole hearted trust in the players & the plan.
It all fell apart after 2 overs in the first test in Brisbane. With 18months to prepare & plan for the upcoming test & decide on an opening bowler, Flintoff destroyed any confidence the players had in themselves or the team plan by pulling Harmison after only 2 or 3 overs. Fair enough, 17 off 2 is not a good start, but it's a test match, you can afford 5 or so overs of shabby bowling. Let the bloke find his rhythm & let him know the team has trust in his ability & faith in the plans set in place. And that faith & belief will carry on throughout the series.
No faith in taking a punt on exciting young wicket-takers and going for the same-old, same-old is just another example of this.
Have a bit of faith.
Duncan Fletcher's treatment of Monty Panesar is nothing short of disgraceful!!
Complain about this postBefore the series started , you would have said that Monty was England's second best bowler after Flintoff and how he has been shoved out of the side is ridiculous. It may not have altered the course of the 1st test because England were very poor in that game but he could well have had a big impact on this game. Here is a guy who has got the best players of spin out in the last year and is rated as possibly the best finger spinner in the world so why in your right mind would you leave him out???
England may have to play Flintoff at 7 because he is one position too high in the order currently and make do with 4 bowlers.
The ashes have now gone and pride will be the only thing left to play for now.
Maybe this result exposes the truth better than a bore draw would have done.
... it's Fletcher's egotistical selections that are causing the problem.
Flintoff isn't far from full fitness.. proven by his bowling today.
Panesar should have played instead of Giles and if there was a concern over the length of the tail then Joyce should have come in for the 3rd seamer (Anderson).
Hoggard always bowls plenty of overs, Monty would be able to do the same.. leaving
Complain about this postTo beat Australia you need match winners, people who can change the course of a game. In the current squad, the match winners are Pietersen, Flintoff, Harmison (admittedly not firing but has the ability) and Panesar. That is not to knock the others by any means – Strauss, Collingwood, Bell are very capable and provide a great base for the team….but when you need that bit of sparkle, these four guys are the ones I would look towards to change the course of a game.
With that in mind, Monty has to play from now on. I don’t want to criticise Giles as he has been a good servant to England, but he is a jack of no trades and just adds mediocrity to the team.
As for the Jones Read debate I am a Notts man and therefore my heart lies with Read. Jones was brought in for his batting and he has failed when we needed him most. Surely it’s time for Fletcher to admit to his mistakes and play Monty and Read…..and while you’re at it, give Mahmood a place ahead of Anderson.
Complain about this postForget about the past & lets think about the future, try to get the positives from this match, imagine perth is the 1st test of the series & show lots of charactor. Drop Anderson, Giles & Jones. Bring back Mahmood, Panesar & Read. Attack ponting & hussey, show some aggressive tactics. Well finally all i can say to win matches Follow the basics of cricket.
Complain about this postI cannot believe the comments below. All saying that what we should've done this who we should've picked. The fact is you were beaten by the better side. Not just technically, but most importantly, mentally. We have been in this situation a heap of times losing some and winning some, as we did today but, nevertheless we have the experience to handle those situations. When we get beaten in those situations, we would've of been outplayed but we don't go down without a fight. The English have not got that "mongrel" in them to battle.
Aussie Aussie Aussie Oi Oi Oi
Complain about this postNo surprise really - Duncan Fletcher's negativity threw the advantage to Australia before Brisbane when he removed all 3 positives from the successful series vs Pakistan last summer:
Complain about this post1) Panesar's bowling
2) Read's wicket-keeping and batting
3) Strauss' calm captaincy.
The chickens are coming home to roost - how long before Graveney flies out to influence selection?
Flintoff hobbling out of this test, as lamely as the rest of you uninspired Poms. England need to clutch at straws. Send for the crutches and Michael Vaughan. Bring back Goughie. I'm just glad I had a punt on McGrath's 5-0 prediction.
Complain about this postBit of a shocker.
Incredibly entertaining stuff though, makes cricket such a great game. Got to hand it too the Aussies they have a mentality no other country has these days (the West Indies used to).
Still a bit gutted though.
Complain about this postAbsolutely fantastic!!!
It's a beautiful thing when a team loses an unlosable test!
Just bask in the fact that your best performance of the ashes will go down as one the most deplorable losses in Test Cricket History!
Complain about this postThis test match was lost because we could not take 20 wickets, full stop. With the exception of Freddie and Hoggard over the 10 days we have bowled poorly.
We scored 670 odd runs which if we would have had more of a bowling attack would have been competitive and probably enough. Okay we collapsed this morning, but Shane Warne is a great bowler.
Panesar would have ended the game with better figures than 2-150 from 50 overs.
The most dissapointing thing for me was the fact that Harmison (particularly) was ambling in towards the end with moderate effort, lets at least go down with a fight.
Complain about this postThankyou England!
What was going to be a boring day watching a draw play out on the lifeless Adelaide Oval wicket, turned into an enjoyable afternoon watching the wheels fall off an England team who had some confidence back after the Gabba shellacking. Why oh why did Flintoff not set an attacking field for the last session? Put some pressure on and see what happens.
The WACA is now flatter than Adelaide, and I was expecting another boring 5 day runfest. Now with this result, we should expect another Aussie victory. Thanks!
Complain about this postDefeat snatched from dejaws of victory. But I have no doubt at all that soon we'll hear that Freddy will be able to "take some positives" out of this minor catastrophe, and that'll make it all right.
Complain about this postToo many players in the team played too little cricket before the series began, Flintoff and Giles among them. And too much hope is being invested in one or two batsmen who can't perform consistently from one innings to the next. The same can be said for three out of four bowlers.
I like Jonathan Agnew's Blog It completely sums up the team performance.
Gosh! What an astounding Game.
Cricket is brutal. But This match shows its awesome win or lose.
I still believe England has a good chance of edging back into the test because for 4 days they played so well in Adelaide. And so im looking forward to Perth.
ST
Complain about this post
Complain about this postwell hello there.
i suppose now df will dig his heels in and still refuse to pick his best team. all summer we played with a attacking spinner and a wicket kepper to back him up, so back comes his old chum gilo and all those good performances get thrown away, beggers belief.
upset is,nt the word i am looking for
Winning last year generated massive interest in the side and in the game.
Thankfully the ECB then decided it was better to take huge sums from BSkyB to invest in the playing of the game than less from BBC/Channel 4 so more can watch our national team on television.
Australia should now revoke our team's visas on the grounds that their employment is illusory.
Complain about this postTakes England 18 years to win the Ashes and less than 18 months to hand them back.
As in all sports, England have this wonderful habit of confusing good players for world class performers. Its all well and good hitting runs and taking wickets when you are on top but to do it when the chips are down is what makes you a great player. England seem to lack a real bedrock performer with either bat or ball.
2005 is starting to look like the fluke of all flukes.
Complain about this postI think England came under prepared into this series and it has been shown, only play 2 three day matches and 1 one dayer was poor preparation. Also all our bowlers are in poor form except Hoggy through injury or England management not bowling them enough. While the issue of not picking Monty has slapped England in the face as Giles just does not look taking wickets and needs to be dropped. I fear for England for the rest of the series. It was great to win the Ashes, but to give them up like this is just depressing.
Complain about this postJonathan stated that the English psychologist needs to establish why they continue to be intimidated by the Australians.
We (the Aussies) were similarly intimidated by the West Indians for 12 years even though at times we had great teams who beat all (other) comers. Mark Taylor and later Steve Waugh have given our Teams a great sense of self belief which has continued on with Ricky P.
The only way England can compete is through strong and uncompromising leadership. I don't think Flintoff is the solution, great player though he is. Bowlers don't tend to make great captains - Strauss or even Petersen maybe a better solution until Vaughan returns.
Complain about this postSimply not good enough.
Complain about this postI have to concur that this is one of the darkest days I have seen in recent cricketing times. I don't know that it's the sheer abject failure, because there have definitely been worse days. I think the huge damage is that England absolutely bossed this Test Match for 4 days and still somehow conspired to lose.
Much was made before the series of the psychological benefits of a young side coming here "baggage free" and "unscarred". Now all that has been undone, and what could have been a platform for an assault on the Aussies at Perth has been totally ripped away.
On the flip side of the psychology angle – just imagine the jubilation if we had been able to inflict this result on the Aussies. That's what's coursing through their squad right now.
Three to play and two to win – a very tall order...
Complain about this postIt is simply a matter of who is good and who is not, that's it!
Complain about this postAs usual Aggers sums it up a treat...panic and indecision! But how can a team in such a commanding position come out on the final day with negativity and hapless stroke play like we did today? Especially when last year we saw the complete opposite from almost the same 11 men!
England had quit by lunch and the aussies 'never say die' attitude unsuprisingly kicked our frightened schoolboy butts!
Another sorry and woeful day in the history of english cricket! There is only one solution...Monty and Ready in and Aggers for coach!!!!
Complain about this postAfter several days of promise in the second test I didn't think that we would win this morning but I certainly didn' think that we would lose!!
The middle order of KP, Freddie and Jones need to be given a right rollicking for their shot selection. They are supposed to be the backbone of the side and they produced virtually no runs. If they had scored 20 runs each along with the time that it would have taken the draw would have been secure.
Giles cost us the game - he dropped Ponting, batted awfully and bowled like a drain. When we needed some negative bowling into the rough and forcing the aussies to bat he was pitching it on middle and off!!
After our poor batting we could still have saved the game by intelligent bowling and intelligent field placing - spread the field - harmy, freddie and hoggy bowl wide of off stump, giles bowls in the rough and at the left handers legs!
Fletcher needs to look at himself - he has been so conservative this series that we have left a matchwinner out, Monty, and undermined Read's confidence by putting JOnes in after he has done nothing!
The next test is crucial - we need to come out all guns blazing. England need to take the positives from this game - there were plenty: batting in the first innings was good, collingwood was excellent, harmison showed signs of improvement. But they also need to think about the negatives - bring Monty in (he offers so much more than Giles) & get rid of Anderson (he is not test class!)
I'm still positive about the series although not as chirpy as I was yesterday!!! Come on boys show us that today was an aberration and win the next test!!
Complain about this postI think this dismal caving-in is in large part due to Andrew Flintoff's lack of experience as a captain.
Complain about this postI thought befre the tour began that he was the wrong choice as captain and the performances so far have reinforced that view.Andrew Strauss would have been my choice-he seems a far more level headed and thoughtful person than Flintoff and is just the sort of calm personality needed when the Aussies put the pressure on.
We need some changes of personnel for the next test if we are going to pull this one out of the fire....beginning with Monty being in the side.This Australia are not as good as some of their predecessors - its just that the naive England leadership is making them look better than they really are.
the turning point of the test match was when ricky ponting was dropped by that idiot giles, he went on to get another 107 runs, if you drop routine catches like that, what do yo expect, you're certainly not going to win. May be giles should take them stupid glasses off and that hat. England did not derseve to win, they palyed for the draw, and ultimately paid the price.
Complain about this postGreat show England. Can't even bat a day. Useful Ashley. dropped catch, no runs& 1 wicket in both the second innings. Useless. monty has to play. otherwise, lets pick 8 batsmen. Giles basically removes a player from the game, so its 10 v 11. anderson's presence makes it 9 v 11. Useless. Come home now, just forefeit the last 3 matches. why increase the embarassement? or alternativly, pick Monty.
Complain about this postBoycott was right!!!!!!! Everyone scoffed when he said Fletchers time was up. Fletcher out thought the Aussies last time he has now lost the plot.
Complain about this postIn not alowing bowlers to play county cricket they have lost form through in activity. Harmison has had no chance of recovering self belief and sticking him up against the best batting attack without convition was fool hardy. He played Anderson as cover for Harmison, rediculous as he himself has not had sufficiant practice. that in turn whcih meant our most attacking and economical weapon Monty was left on the sideline. If Monty now plays the pressure on him is going to be enormous. If cricket is 10% ability 90% mental leaving out Monty simply sent a negative message to the Aussies that we don't think we can win.
Quiet on Giles aren't we Aggers?
Complain about this postYou seem to have lost your bullish edge.
Being hunble is a wonderful trait, yet to see it from you though!!
Duncan Fletcher and Ashley Giles should be sent home on the first available ferry.
Complain about this postThis is now embarrasing. Initially, I refused to believe that Fletcher played favourites, that he genuinely believed he was playing the correct team, but it's very apparent how wrong I was. Giles' inclusion for the first test was dubious but for this game aswell!? You can't blame Giles, he's hardly going to turn down the chance to play for his country, but there is no case for him to play again: chosen for his superior batting and fielding and as a containing bowler, he was ineffective in each of these departments. Anderson was ineffective, anonymous in fact. Jones, I don't think you can argue that Read would have fared any better. The case for Panesar (what a difference he could have made in Australia's second innings) and Mahmood (who can bat eight) must now be irrefutable.
Complain about this postI was saying before this test series that Andrew Strauss should never have been replaced as captain. He had a fine summer and was settling into the role very well until it was wrenched away from him and given to that buffoon Flintoff. Flintoff should step aside to concentrate on his batting and bowling and let Strauss do what he can do best - motivate, manage and marshall the England team to rescue themselves from this sorry shambles they have made for themselves.
Complain about this postAs i have send before, Ashley Giles is the luckiest test cricketer ever. I has no talent whatsoever. He was a medium pace bowler from Guildford and some how got a contract with Warkwickshire ! I would love to know WHO gave him a contract.
Ashley Giles makes Phil Tufnell look like Shane Warne!!
Please Please Please drop this wheelie bin fraud.
Monty Panesar must play from now on.
DF must get sacked.
Geraint Jones, where are these runs you keep promising?
Flintoff you are a very good bowler, and an ok batsman, but you are not a class batsman. You are not as good as people make out.
It is typical English hyping players up. Same as the over paif footballers.
AUS 5-0
Complain about this postWhat, no great job being done by my hero DF from you Aggers, great selection policy, great to see GILES & JONES making a great job of it.
Complain about this postPerhaps he will not speak to you any more if you criticise him?
Like thousands of others, I'm gutted. This was like the bad old days of the 90s. Yes, we played very, very well for four days but that just makes it all the more galling.
Complain about this postFlintof looked distraught at the end and I feel sorry for the big man because he puts so much effort in. Yet, he has to take some of the blame along with Fletcher for team selection.
A fourth innings run chase of 168 should have been damned hard. Instead, it was ludicrously easy. If Fred was convinced at the beginning of the match that picking Giles and Anderson over Monty and Mahmood was the right decision, then he sure as hell knew 15 overs in when you could tell he had no bowler to turn to to help him out, that it was the wrong one.
Giles' performance was abject and has to be his last. Jones too, was dire. He dropped a catchable chance off Anderson towards the end and was partly responsible for the farcical seven over throws off Freddie.
A lot of plaudits went Fletcher's way last year but for me, the man who won us the series was Vaughan. Ponting was intimidated by his captaincy and that showed in the Aussies performances.
England have relied on Flintoff motivating the team to victory - that's never going to be enough.
Today's collapse would never have happened under Vaughan. Period.
Now, the only thing left to do is attack and that means dropping Jones, Anderson and Giles. Bring back Read and play Monty.
Unfortunately, Harmison needs to go too but how can you go into a must-win test with only Hoggard and an injury-doubt Flintoff as your only seamers?
I'm really, really annoyed because, Ponting and Warne apart, this Aussie team are no better than the one England beat last year. Unfortunately, we've helped them with our negative team selection.
Strap your knee up Vaughny, your country needs you.
Australia got a few bad decisions in England as well especially Damion Martyn.So there was two bad decisions so what?there are five other batsmen in the team.
Complain about this postThe majority of the blame has to be placed upon the management team. Strauss should have retained the captaincy - it didn't work for our best ever all-rounder Botham, and it won't work for Flintoff - we never learn from our mistakes. Trescothick should never have made it to the aircraft if he still had personal stress issues. Read should still be keeper - infinitely a better keeper than Jones. Panesar should have played in both tests at the expense of either Giles or Anderson.
Time for Graveney to take some decision-making away from Fletcher/Flintoff, and lets get back to the basics of picking the strongest team, rather than picking guys who are all in the same ISM Management stable.
Complain about this postI am truly embarrassed but some how it doesn't feels like a shock. We had the game by the scruff and blew it. I really don't know how the boys will be able to collect themselves for the rest of the series.
Complain about this postGiles has been picked for runs which is a completely defensive choice. He's never going to be worth more than about 20 odd anyway. Well we have to win 2 tests now so there is no choice but to attack and that means Panesar.
I am surprised more has not been made of some of the other non-performing bowlers. Stuart Broad is at the academy I believe. I am convinced he could get more wickets than Anderson in Perth. He is also capable of getting the 20 runs that Fletcher so covets from Giles.
Complain about this postYou have to stop kicking your team in the head, and looking for excuses. You are in a building mode at the moment. Every team goes through it. Look at the Windies.
Complain about this postThe 'blame' doesn't lie wholly and solely with certain players. You just came up against a juggernaut of a team. If it was Rugby, we're like the All Blacks - virtually unbeatable.
Give yourselves and your team a break. You can't win every game. Look at your England Soccer team. Hahahahahahahaha
What a hammer blow for the team. This just proves its time for change, and i don't just mean in the team put out to play the tests.
Big Dunc needs to realise that he's not going to be able to field last year’s ashes winning team.
Why not try and get something out of the remaining tests for future players? Get Broad into the squad and give him a go, what’s to loose that isn't already lost!
Complain about this postPaneser in, Giles out.
Absolutely attrocious. We lost our bottle - shameful for professional sporstmen, even against the best ever bowler in Test cricket. Panessar AND Read MUST come back. If not, Fletcher MUST go, as it otherwise pure ego and stubborness on his behalf.
Complain about this postHey don't so sad England. It was a top contest...but the BEST TEAM WON!
Complain about this postI don't understand the criticism of Flintoff as Captain. Vaughan spent half his time off the pitch in 2005 being told what too do by Fletcher and didn't particularly play well.
Fletcher and not Flintoff's tactics are at fault here. We are not picking a side to win but simply not too lose and when you go out with that mentality you get situations like today.
Complain about this postGiles has still made more runs than Jones in the 2 tests..... Not bad considering Jones was brought in for his batting He's never looked comfortable and his footwork is dire. 2 poor dismissals in the second test. How long before he drops a catch and costs England a hundred or so?
Fletcher should pick the team on merit, not on an "old boy" and "who's mates with Freddy" basis.
Can Fletcher survive?
Complain about this postA disgraceful perfrormance. The England team should hang their heads in shame. Where is their fighting spirit? I feel sorry for the poor fans who havwe shelled out thousands on flights and hotels. Why wont Fletcher pick Monty? Giles couldn't spin a pound coin never mind a cricket ball. Harmison is a lightweight and Freddy is not up to being a captain.
Complain about this postEngland played a good test but even there best is not good enough to bet Australia when they are on there game. They need to play for the full 5 days and it was clear that they mentally had moved on to the next test already.
They were given a lesson today and I doubt they will recover.
Complain about this postTime has come for someone to be gracious enough to resign. It was that bad. And that person has to be Duncan Fletcher.
I cannot believe that he stuck with the same bowling line up after Brisbane.
England have to start playing like a team again. Someone should have gone onto the pitch and told the batsmen to get some runs. Where is the leadership. We have to pick the BEST players for their jobs, not just incase. If they fail, then they fail, but at least England are attacking.
It is not really the time to do it mid series, but the side has to change. Different coach, captain, keeper and bowlers. Let Flintoff do what he does best, i don't think he is a world class captain.
Please Duncan, do the right thing and p off, and come on England, show some of that fight that is there somewhere.
Complain about this postWith the exception of Collingwood, Pietersen, Flintoff and Hoggard (and possibly Bell), what have the other members of the team contributed thus far in the series? Cook, Strauss and Jones with the bat? Giles, Harmison and Anderson with the ball? Oh dear!
Hmmmm
Complain about this postSuffer in your jocks, that's what you get for negative selections and negative play. What a terrible chocking display ... only gutted that I've tickets for Boxing Day and Sydney.
Complain about this postObviously massively disappointing. I just don't understand it. We have possibly the most exciting spinner that we have had for years, certainly that I can remember and now at 2-0 we will never know the impact he could have made in both test matches, especially Adelaide. What was Giles brought in to do? The way I see it, he got no runs, 2 expensive wickets when it was all too late and of course crucially dropped Ponting in their first innings. Thanks for turning up.... Giles is a good pro! No better and no worse. By the way, the fast bowlers should either turn up or go home. Select Stuart Broad.
Complain about this postWhy does Monty not play and we continue with Jones who can supposedly bat? Let's be positive and make bold choices!
Complain about this postTrying to defend for a whole day is ridiculous. We should have learnt from the Oval that that approach does not work against any decent bowling attack, let alone the best in the world. Back then is was only when KP attacked them that the draw was secured.
More worrying is the depth of Aussie batting and our ineffective bowling - there is no way we are going to get them out for anything less than 400 so I can't see where a win is going to come from.
And what an irony - Giles scores a duck and drops a catch. Doubt it will help poor Monty's cause though.
Complain about this postJonathon,
apart from scrutiny of some abysmal English performances in this game when it mattered most, selection policy must come under fire. Giles's impotent all round performance; Jones continued poor batting, Harmless and Anderson – well enough said. How can it even be uttered under one's breath that Giles should be in the side. A complete and utter nonsense - especially when the argument is that you need an extra batter. His complete lack of penetration doesn’t count in weighing up selection options. I’m sure he’s a jolly good fellow and all of that. On a spinning track- what deluded madness. Why not match Panesar up with the rest of the trundlers in terms of batting and fielding. The failed logic used by commentators and selectors to argue for Giles or Anderson for that matter is absolutely mind-boggling.
Complain about this postI'll probably get bagged for being Australian but I was disgusted in England today. I have looked forward to this Ashes for the main reason that England would try to consistently attack Australia. India have success against us because they attack whenever they can. You produce the crap that was shown today and you deserve to get flogged. Giles is one of the worst spinners, technically and tactically, I have ever seen. The keeper was only a grade cricketer in Qld so how he gets a nod is beyond me. Try Monty and attack. Get Darren Lehmann. He knows one way and one way only and he is very astute as well. It may be beyond your belief to read this from an Aussie but I am quite hollow to think we have a 5-0 whitewash coming up.
Complain about this postLets spare a thought for Collingwood, who performed magnificently throughout this match.
At least one of our"batsmen" can at least read the game and understand what is needed.
To settle the partisan thoughts of many here i can be sure that changes will be made for the 3rd test. Hopefully it will fletcher making way for boycott.
Complain about this postThis reminds me of the pain of following England through the dismal mid 90s.
Complain about this postChanges must be made before Perth,there is nothing to loose anymore.Fletcher's favourites have failed again and he must take the blame. Bring in Panasar & Mahmood at the expense of Gilo & Anderson.
I too am seriously considering cancelling Sky sport subs as I cant suffer too many more sleepless nights watching this dismal,humiliating tripe
The 2nd innings was dreadful but the 1st innings was excellent. They can bat but can they bowl ?
England took 10 wickets in the 1st Test and 14 in the 2nd Test and given 20 are usually required per Test to win a Test, this strongly suggests that the bowling should be the biggest concern.
When you've got to win a Test (or two !) you've got to pick the best bowlers and rely on the main batsman to do their job. Conclusion: No8 should be a better bowler than he is a batsman.
Complain about this postAs much as Fletcher wants to concentrate on strengthening our batting order, we need a threat in our bowling attack! in the first test, Australia declared both their innings, and the only time we've bowled them out was for over 500!! Our batting isn't the problem, we don't need players like Giles. We need wicket takers. We are seriously missing Simon Jones, and Strauss should be captain, not Flintoff. Anderson has bowled relatively well, he's been unlucky, but if he's not getting wickets, then maybe it's time to give Mahmood a go.
Complain about this postEvery big decision England have had to make they have got it right. One is excusable, three is stupid. Flintoff can't do everything and his batting shows that, the pressures of captaincy are too much for him. Strauss flourished with the bat as captain and showed that he could lead the side in a way similar to Vaughan. Giles, what has he done to deserve a place, he has always been overrated by Fletcher. He has not scored that many runs, he hasn't taken many wickets even on a fifth day (3-262, this series) and he dropped a massively important catch (ponting). He has been a massive mistake and by picking him the ascendancy was handed to the Aussiea. Jones has not kept badly, but then again he hasn't scored many runs, he's in the team to do that. He needs to be scoring 60s and 70s, not 30s. Read showed he could bat, but wasn't given a chace. I hate to say it, but England need to make drastic changes and stop living in the past. 2005 Ashes were the height of Jones, Giles (although height is a bit of an oversatement for these two) Flintoff (i'm not suggesting dropping him ,rather this was hie peak and that he will never pay as well again) and Harmison. Engalnd need to move on and if they aren't performing drop them. There are plenty of quality young bowlers in the country (Broad for one) and we need to let these talents flourish at the highest level. On a final point, why is Anderson in the Australia, he's been injured for a very long time and hasn't performed consistently well since he came into the side, whereas Mahmood has shown signs of potential and has played regular cricket. The England team is living in the past and if they lose 5-0 no one is going to remember the Oval last summer.
Complain about this postBrilliant performance by the Australians!
Complain about this postEngland now need to think outside the box to retain the Ashes! Jones should be dropped on the basis he is not performing with the bat and is an average keeper, his replacement should be Collingwood who has kept in limited overs cricket for Durham. This would allow for the selection of Panaser alongside Giles for the next test. Anderson should also be dropped for Mahmood whose batting also strengthens the lower oder!
Complain about this postWell done Mr Agnew! Once again no mention of how wrong England have been to not pick Monty in these games. We can only wonder what we may have restricted Australia to had Monty been bowling in the first innings. It was only a day later that Warne was spinning it at right angles! And the less said about Giles pathetic bowling in the second innings the better!
Fletcher stated "As we've said on numerous occasions, we want to bat to eight and we think Ashley can do a better job with that," Surely if thats the case we will be picking Vaughan at eight when he is fit, and have him bowling just outside leg stump from around the wicket, with a packed leg side field!
I think maybe its time for Fletcher to do what he does best- coach- and for selection to be taken out of his hands.
Complain about this postIs fletcher the right man for the job ? Didnt the last soccer manager ericsson have his favorites wernt we supposed to win the last world cup how can giles,anderson and jones all still be playing when they either cant bat,bowl,keep wicket or play under pressure maybe freddie can be the coach as well as he seems to do everything else!!!!!
Complain about this postFreddie give up the captains job give it to Strauss get back to what you do best battin and bowling remeber what happened to botham hero one minute with the press, crap player the next with them ( never played to his best after he was captain)
Maybe we can salvage some pride over the next 3 tests i do hope on the day i go to perth that we havent given away the ashes .
Play to win england take a leaf out of Ponting and his team never say defeat!!!
Time for Duncan Fletcher to go I'm afraid as he's taken the team as far as he can. How can he defend the selection of Giles over Panesar, when Giles only worthwile contribution was to drop Ponting.
Complain about this postUtterly disgusted by this shambles. Agnew's attitude was epitomized this morning when he said to Boycott that he was tired of talking about this Test match and wanted to talk about the future!!!
But Agnew, you can't figure out what to do about the future unless you acknowledge what's going on in the PRESENT and then correct it!
Mediocrity is the name of the game when it comes to selection policy. These folks are so fond of it but I assure you Mr Agnew that whatever else might happen, you will assuredly not win the Ashes with Well-Intentioned Mediocrity.
Complain about this postWell,what can i say i am a Englishman living in Australia and i feel embarrased to be English.
Complain about this postI am a laughing stock at work, and so is the whole of the English side.
I am deeply upset by this inept and cowardly display by Fletcher he should be hung out to dry.
I just hope people in England realise that This team and disgusting managment has made us a joke here.
I feel sory for for all the people who have spent thousands to come to Australia to watch this.
I feel now that we will be beat 5-0 and we will lay on our backs like this last test match and show our yellow stomach
When Geoff Boycott said before the Ashes that Fletcher should go he was generally criticised and derided for making such a statement. Now it seems that many would agree with him. In truth, he took England as far as he could after the previous Ashes. Since then, his selection policy based around picking players he likes belongs in schoolboy cricket.
Fletcher has the luxury of having someone in the squad he admitted as being the best finger spinner in world cricket, yet for reasons only he himself must understand, he chooses not to play him in favour of someone whose presence in the team has always been difficult to fully justify.
The most eagerly awaited series of all time has been ruined and Fletcher must own up and admit his mistakes, not insult the public by insisting he was right all along.
Complain about this postThe Ashes are now as good as lost. I believe serious errors of judgment have been made by the management. Firstly, Strauss should have remained as Captain: No man can bat, bowl and Captain the side, no matter how good he is. Secondly, Read should have kept his place, and finally, Panesar should have played, either with, or instead of Giles. England have allowed themselves to be out-thought and out-played by an ageing, and highly beatable, Australian side.
Complain about this postIf as is reported, Fletcher said before the start of Day 5 "We'll just wait and see what happens", then you know why we lost.
You can add a second reason if you consider why a double-centurian in the first innings can only score 22 off 119 balls and make no attempt to protect the tailenders.
It's all about attitude - if you think like a Colossus, you are likely to bestride your opponents. If you think like a rabbit, you end up in the pot.
Complain about this postWell of the 5 or 6 tests I've seen at Adelaide Oval this must be by far the best. Big crowds fine weather and the match twisting and turning to what I call the best result!
Thanks for coming England, it is good to have competition at last, see you next time.
Complain about this postI cannot really believe it is true.
Is THIS shambles really the team that conquered the Aussies at the Oval in September last year? Is this the same team that was joined in singing Jerusalem by an uplifted nation next to Nelsons Column?
Utterly dreadful. I cant think of any words to fully describe how badly we played, how badly we miss Troy Cooley, how wrong the selectors were with their choice of squad, how Fletcher can still try and justify the picking of Ashley "Bats and Fields" Giles and how lifeless and spineless England were today.
Didn't Fletcher call Panesar "the nest finger spinner in the world" after he destroyed Pakistan in the summer?
You are an IDIOT Fletcher - a poor mans Bob Woolmer!
P.s Fred should never have been given the captaincy as he has too much to try and think about. Nip it in the bud - make Straussy captain while we can still save the series.
Also, well played Hoggy - LEGEND!
Complain about this postBring them home home NOW!
Complain about this postWoah woah woah there!
I'm no Fletcher apologist but what good does all this biting and blaming do? Reading it just adds to the depressing feelings we've all got.
I agree that Anderson has looked ineffective. However it's equally likely that Mahmood could have been picked and sprayed it around for hundreds of runs and not many wickets too. We saw this happen in the summer. Anderson apparently offers more control and that's why he's been picked.
This "batting to 8" thing is extremely important. The Aussies put on 100 with their No 8 - Warne - and those runs proved pivotal. Just becuase Giles doesn't look like scoring many doesn't mean that we should forget all about it and just go for the better bowler. If, instead of Warne coming in at 8 the Aussies had Hoggard, Harmison and Anderson - all No 10/11s - they'd struggle.
Fletcher managed to inspire the boys for 4 days, and they really took it to the Aussies. The attitude and body language was very good and we were margianlly on top. However, in the same way that it's not Kevin Shine's fault that SH bowled the first ball to 2nd slip in Brisbane, it's not Fletchers fault that the batters bottled it on Day 5 in this test.
Forget about Vaughan- he's not scored a run for months and would get taken apart on a technical level if not mentally.
Fo the record I'd like to see Monty and Mahmood in the team. In my opinion Jones should stay, as Read doesn't really appear to offer any more with the bat or gloves, but seems less of a positive character.
I don't see how laying into Fletcher and Fred helps. Fred's given his all and Fletcher has made HUGE improvement to England's cricket. He can't continue to make mistakes agreed, but remember these Aussies are not rubbish. They're good, good players.
Complain about this postIt was extremely disappointing performance by England, considering the most recent performance I was not expecting much but giving away the game like that was not expected but I am not surprised at all keeping the strength of the team. We can not compare England with Australia in any department (bowling, fielding and batting) on the paper and on the field, England doesn't have batsmen of Ponting and Hussy's caliber , doesn't have wicket keeper and complete batsman of Gilchrist caliber, and no bowler of Shane Warne 's caliber.
Complain about this postLast ashes was won with the help of two very good batsman Vaughan and trescothick, both are badly missed in the current series. I don't expect much from this England batting, if they deliver that is a bonus.
Probably everyone agrees the point that Giles shouldn't have been selected. I don't understand what type of positive cricket is this that you select somebody in such a crucial game on the basis that he can score 20 odd runs at no 7. If top order fail Giles is not going score a hundred and rescue the team, and if the top order is successful we don't need his batting, and we have seen his bowling.
We can go day and night discussing what went wrong but the bottom line is that Duncan Fletcher should move on, England need a fresh start.
It's clear there must be a popwerstruggle in the ECB, as Graveney picks Read and Panesar when he's in charge and Fletcher picks Jones and Gilo.
Complain about this postFletchers decision has cost England this test, not because of the dropped catch, but because panesar could have bowled over the wicket and actually attack the aussies and Fletcher should be sacked now. He's made crucial mistakes in this series and history has proven he's of no use for the One day series and the world cup.
Test cricket is about taking 20 wickets in 5 days so you select your best bowlers (and keeper).
Aggers wrote: "He urgently needs to establish why a group of successful cricketers, the first for 20 years to come here holding the Ashes, continues to be intimidated by the Australians."
Part of the answer could be the methods of the coach. Immediately after the game, he has absolved all the batsmen, and defended the queer selections as well.
Averages don't mean a thing unless a player has the mental make-up to face the Aussies.. the present coach is very soft on non-performers.
Complain about this postDuncan Fletcher has allowed his ego to get the better of his judgement once he lost the controlling influence of the selectors; certainly his after-match comments avoid any acceptance of responsibility. Today was a disaster waiting to happen that actually happened. The old adage not to change a winning team should have been applied for this tour - Straus was a good and developing captain of a team having to learn together, with country's best wicket-keeper and the country's most exciting bowler. Changes should only be made if the replacements are exceptional - Flintoff - truly exceptional player but ordinary captain, Giles - good but not exceptional and with no cricket for a year, similarly Jones improving but not exceptional. Unfortunately changes now mean acceptance by the manager that he was wrong and as we are seeing he is never wrong
Complain about this postExpect an unchanged side for Perth...
Theoretically we know that on a flat pitch England's top 6 can stick up a load of runs for the bowlers to aim at and bat out a draw if that fails. So the only question should be how aggressive can we make our five-man attack, with Mahmood and Monty coming in plus Broad or Tremlett to replace Harmless and maybe even give Freddie a rest.
But it won't happen. Fletcher knows that he'll be crucified if Monty or Mahmood pick up a shedload His only hope is for the Brisbane-Adelaide crew finally come through and vindicate his selection strategy (and in the process shift the blame for the earlier defeats back to themselves).
I really, really wish I was wrong about this..
Complain about this postIt was a shocking collapse by England, brought about by negative cricket and a lack of self belief. Instead of ever believing they could win the game, England attempted to go into a shell first thing this morning. As soon as the Aussies realized England were attempting to see out time, they moved in for the kill and were able to attack from both ends. England fell under preassure once again, but they have no one to blame but themselves. If they cannot bring a positive approach to their game, and if they do not have self belief in their abilities, then they will never challenge the best team in the world. England should learn something from the Australian approach, the Aussies always play to win and never believe they are going to lose a match until they actually lose it, and even then, you can be rest assured they will never crumble like England often does, and did today as well. Even when they came out to bowl, the only England player who even looked like he wanted to compete was the Captain himself, Andrew Flintoff. Freddie bowled his heart out, and he deserves a team that can fight with him, but unfortunately all he got was a group of guys who never believed they could win in the first place.
Complain about this postI have seen worse collapses and bigger surrenders over the past 20 years or so of watching the English cricket team, but none have been quite as painful to behold as this one - and none can have inflicted such pyschological damage. Fletcher's post-match comments were quite extraordinary - "batsmen weren't to blame"; "team selection was correct". By any measurement, he must surely realise that he and the other selectors messed up in spectacular fashion.
Complain about this postHowever, the bigger problem is that our bowling attack is so insipid that if the batsmen perform as dismally as they did today, we have absolutely no chance.
As an Australian, can I say YEAH!
But seriously, I thought Australia were finished regardless... perhaps I was watching a delayed telecast.
Complain about this postThis is the end of the road for Fletcher. We have not just lost the Ashes, we have been comprehensively humiliated.
Complain about this postBasically Giles cant bowl his injury has finished him off!!
Complain about this postOnce again instead of playing fit players we have played unfit or not match fit players and suffered the consequences! Fletcher needs to take a long look at himself and stop being stubborn and drop Giles. He did nothing with the bat or ball and he dropped the crucial catch which could have won us the game!!!! As a Warwickshire fan it pains me to say this I just think Giles has lost something.
Jones is not scoring runs so on that basis we should get the best wicketkeeper in and that is Read who can score runs did it against Pakistan last summer!!!
Fletcher is the equivalent of Sven Goran Eriksson playing the players on previous reputations!!!
Totally spineless and negative performance by the Poms today, and also, despite my heritage, very disappointing. As a cricket tragic I like to see Australia pushed to the wall and was in fact pleased when they lost the Ashes last year. Whilst I never had a doubt that we would win them back in this series, after Brisbane was hoping that the series will still be alive come the 4th and 5th tests - when I will be back in Oz - but save little hope of this after today. The series is dead.
Complain about this postWhat on earth was Fletcher playing at sticking with Giles. If you want to beat the Australians then the only way is to attack them, and Giles bowling over the wicket to right-handers was a complete waste of time. He didn't return great figures, and failed miserably with the bat in the second innings. The selection of Geraint Jones must come into question also - He is averaging just under 15 with the bat so far, and since he is ahead of Read because of his batting, he will come under heavy pressure to get a score.
Complain about this postIt looks like a huge mountain for England to climb now, and we can only hope that Flintoff can pull something special out of the bag for Perth.
As much as I loved it at the time,I'm not sure the excessive sledging of Shane Warne by Jones,Collingwood and Pietersen was a great idea-he was always going to have the opportunity to have the last laugh!
I really blame Pietersen as much as anyone else for the defeat after his 2nd innings dismissal-having got underneath the Aussies skin so effectively by leaving the sweep shot alone,why go and attempt it so early?
Complain about this postFor someone who has the unique ability to make the Australians look ordinary and clueless,it was the turning point.
Stu - I hardly think Graveney is to blame here. He chose a good squad, with the likes of Read and Panesar - both of whom did well this year when given a chance in the Test side. Fletcher is the one who seems obsessed with the likes of Jones and Giles. Honestly, it has become more of a members club than a cricket team.
Complain about this postFrom what i've read this morning there seems to be a trend of asking questions about our bowlers and their selection for this test match (Harmison, Giles, Anderson)
For me this is rather irrelevant and detracts from the real issue. We came into this final day needing only to bat solidly and smartly on a pretty good 'day-5' pitch and proceeded to completely fall to pieces mentally. This (however good Shane Warne bowled) should never have happened.
All of our batsmen are technically gifted, compliment each other well, and have proved in the past that they can post big totals against tough opposition.
The problem then is a psychological one. I think at the start of 'day-5' the players have looked at each other in the dressing room and secretly not had confidence in their teammates. This had led them to develop acute 'fear of failure' which has affected their decision making. The Absence of seasoned winners like Vaughan and Trescothick is a key factor as they are experienced ashes performers who the squad can rely on mentally to give them confidence and belief.
The remedy for this breakdown is for the whole team to face their fears and the stinging criticism that goes with it. No dodging interviews, no hiding places. Leaders like Flintoff need to use the negativity to get this team angry and then focus it on that 3rd test (personally I would pin up newspaper cuttings of Shane Warnes smarmy comments all over the training ground, but whatever works). We need a mentally toughened team.
This moment is the real test for leadership within the squad and funnily enough, sometimes this kind of embarrassing loss can be used to spark off a special reaction.
Complain about this postI watched the entire morning session and then I was forced to retire to bed. I could not believe what I was watching. I've greeted the news with the depression it deserves.
Poor shot selection, no ability to get singles, error after error.
However, I believe that this England side have had cracks in it for a long time when it comes to pressure.
Last Ashes.....losing Lords....collapse second innings
2nd test...nearly throwing it away when we only needed to get 2 wickets and a very shakey second innings until freddy came to party.
3rd test doesn't support my theory at all..but hey.
4th... nearly being beaten when we were chasing a very small total for victory.
5th test again we nearly fell to pressure of second innings, pieterson dropped crucially.
This series could have easily gone the other way.
There were similar stories in Pakistan with second innings errors.
The England selectors have re picked the winning Ashes team from 2005. This has proven to have been a particularly negative and costly error.
How do you lose a game with a first innings score of 550? Ask Fletcher Giles Flintoff Harmison and Jones. Poor
England cricket our last bastion of hope and glory can sink into the void of haplessness along with our football and rugby team.
England cricket team sadly RIP
Complain about this postSaddens me to say that i can only see it ending up as 5-0 to Australia.
Surely a time for a change in Management ! Fresh ideas are needed if this team is to progress to its full potential !
Complain about this postI think everyone is missnig the real point here that Australia were just to good, there is no need blaming all these players for not performing. last year when england won the ashes they were all your national heros. Thats one thing about the english supporters they will kick a team/player when there down but full of praise when they win. When we lost the ashes last year the Australian media/supporters didn't rubbish the team, we were gracious in defeat and accepted that the english were the better team.
Complain about this postIf nothing else, this result should hasten the end of Ashley Giles', Geraint Jones' and James Anderson's test careers. Or at least it would do if someone as inflexible and cautious as Duncan Fletcher wasn't the coach. We simply don't have the Aussies' mental attitude when it comes to getting a result. Our players are more concerned with keeping their place in the team. It's amazing how often a player will score a century when his place is under threat.
Complain about this postSo depressing. But not a complete disaster: there are signs of life here. The batting is in robust shape as the first innings showed and Hoggard and Flintoff are an excellent bowling pair. What is needed are three things: first, for England to be thinking cricketers which they were not during that first hour of today. Second, and more importantly, to play their best players. This means that Fletcher needs to select the best players at his disposal so Read, Mahmood and Panesar come in for Jones, Anderson and Giles and it doesn't hurt the team to do this. After all Mahmood is an ample replacement for Giles at no. 8 and Panesar is, as someone said recently, 'the best finger spinner in the world.' Third, and perhaps most importantly, Harmison has to bowl better under pressure. Sure he bowled better in this match but with a total of 551 behind him he was under no real pressure. In the Australian second innings when the heat was on he bowled poorly in his four overs. Someone needs to get inside that man's head and tell him to extract his digit quickly otherwise we should send him back and find a spearhead with a heart. maybe he should have a quite word with Matthew Hoggard....
Complain about this postI cannot believe my eyes when I woke up this morning to check on the scores. Austrilia 10 runs to win!! how why!!!!!
Fletcher don't be like erickson who prefer to play injured unfit man for fit, best spinner monty!
crazy it might be we have to start thinking like winners and not losers!!
Come on barmy army!!!!
Complain about this postBrilliant England. How did you manageto snatch DEFEAT from the jaws of a good DRAW? Go HOME now so you do not embarass us anymore.
Complain about this postI'm an Aussie who lived in the UK for 10 years until recently, so I am fully aware of the flak that UK, English in particular, sporting teams cop from the papers over there. Serious questions must be asked about DF after this.
Why does DF want to bat to no. 8 if you can't take wickets? If you took wickets, you wouldn't need to bat to 8. The same woth the keeper. You wouldn't need him to score runs if you were taking 20 wickets a match & your batsmen doing the job. First innings in Adelaide, Bell, Collingwood & Pietersen were fantastic. But you still have to take wickets. Bring in Monty for the King of Spain (certainly no spin) & someone, anyone for Anderson. Give Harmy another go in Perth but rethink it after that.
The Ashes are all but gone this time for England but don't give up hope. G McG IS past his best despite what any other Australian will tell you. Lee looks like he is struggling. The balls he took the wickets with today were not good, Jones in particular was a poor, poor shot. Warne... I thought he past it after the 1st innings but may have changed my mind after today. Martyn should go. Hayden & Langer won't be around for too much longer as well.
Youth is probably on Englands side. 2009 & it could well be Englands time again.
To all those supporters in England coming out for the last two tests... Please come! You will be welcome despite the negative comments you read in the papers & online... Not all of it is true. Good buying power with you GBP's out here as well! Please spend them here & do the Aus economy a favour!
Complain about this postI was rendered well nigh speechless for a couple of hours by today's events. I've just about recovered a semblance of normality.
Complain about this postWe all knew that the selection policy was badly flawed, effectively sending out a nine man team against Oz, but it has been shown to be not simply flawed but a catastrophe.
English cricket is now holed below the water line, and no amount of baling and bawling by Fletcher, Flintoff and Graveny can hide that fact.
The selection of Anderson, Giles and Jones was always difficult to justify, many of us feared the worst, and now cannot be pardoned. It is simply not a feasible strategy to take on the Ausises with a set of 2nd rate all rounders whilst leaving your best specialists to soak up the sun.
Shifting the deckchairs around will no longer do.
Fletcher and Graveney MUST go if they have a scrap of dignity left, and Flintoff must have the burden of captaincy taken from his shoulders.
I went to bed last night confident of England going into the next test 1-0 down, having drawn the second test and proving to the Aussies that we are serious contenders to retain the ashes.
I woke this morning to discover another shambolic, lacklustre. display from our batsmen and Australia certain for a victory that was so unlikey just 24 hours before.
The Aussies can now smell victory and need just one more win out of 3 tests to reclaim the treasured Ashes.
I wonder what odds i can get for an Aussie whitewash????!
Complain about this postWhy are the English struggling?
1. Andrew Strauss succesful captain not appointed and obviously sulking.
2. Fred Flintoff forced to captain when needed all effort to recover from injury withoutpressure of captaincy.
3. Coach loves Giles. Why?
4. Should have sent Steve Harmison instead of Stu his untalented brother.
5. Batted too slowly in first innings. Geoff Boycott could occupy the crease, but tests are now set up for results because time can be made up.
6. Marcus Trescothick - why was he selected?
7. Michael Vaughn photographed with his pants down, makes a duck and then opines that he is on track for selection in the English team for Melbourne.
The English tour is and will continue to be a shambolic circus.
Complain about this postAfter seeing the highlights, there were three bad decisions. However, the blame should lie with Cook, Petersen, Flintoff and Jones who were all out playing dreadful shots, and also to Bell. If our Club second team played those shots, we would give them a good rollocking. Fletcher seems incapable of that, or selecting the correct side. Bring in Panesar and Read for a start.
Complain about this postIt was a disppointing experience to watch English batsmen. Especially, in the end when C'wood just thought that defending against Warne will save the game. When Giles was out, at that moment only. C'wood should have stepped up the run rate and should have gathered few runs. It was totally negative batting.
Complain about this postI'm amazed that the Giles-Panesar debate is being offered up every time as the reason for this defeat. I personally believe Panesar should be playing but this defeat was mainly down to the failure of the top 6 batsmen in the 2nd innings. This is inexcusable! A draw in this test would have given england a great confidence boost after the poor display in brisbane. Instead the series is effectively over.
Collingwood and Pieterson are the only two that have delivered with the bat in the two tests to date (with some back-up from Bell) but the top 6 did not stand up to be counted when required. Although Giles & Jones have been poor, so have Strauss, Cook, Harmy, Flintoff and Anderson. You can't win a test match, never mind a series with four players in good form.
Complain about this postNow it's time to put out the strongest XI and change the strategy - nothing to lose now
Let's attack the Aussies with Monty and the quick boys working in short, sharp bursts and have a tenacious niggly character behind the stumps.
New "old" boys Jones and Giles have achieved little - no 50's from the keeper - look back to Pakistan in the summer !!! and few wickets from the spinner.
READ and MONTY have to play !!!!
Complain about this postI have never understood how Giles was ever given the chance to play test match cricket. He's got a decent arm in the outfield but that's about it. Pietersen, never mind Monty, is a better spinner than he is and always will be.
Complain about this postPathetic. Thats the only way to describe it. There's no way England should have lost that test. They should have been looking to sneak the win rather than throwing away a game which for 4 days they were the better side. We really missed Simon Jones. Giles is not a good enough spinner. Even if he is bowling better then Panesar, he is still not good enough at this level. I can only see things getting worse.
Complain about this postFlintoff is still talking bout being happy with the team selection! he's a great bowler, but not a great captain. Strauss really impressed me in the summer, he's Vaughan-like, and I always belived Flintoff was the wrong decision.
Panesar MUST play in Perth. If they don't want to drop Giles, drop Anderson. He's did nothing at Adelaide and he's supposed to be similar to Hoggard. Keep with Jones, he's done nothing wrong behind the stumps and his batting technique is better than Read's.
Complain about this postI fail to understand why jones and Giles were playing when we ahve ried and monty are there.If giles was in the team for batting then why dont you pic another batsman.But if top six batsman can not perform then een you have 11 batsman even than you can not win
Complain about this postFletcher has to go! if you think runs at 8 wins you games instead of wickets you have no idea what your doing. Mahmood would be as useful as giles there and is better than anderson, this also would allow monty to play
Complain about this postDuncan Fletcher has selected an English team not to win a test, but not to l