Brazil - youth, power, and a distaste for the passing game
Sunday was the 39th anniversary of a previous Brazil victory over Italy by a three-goal margin. One of the main architects of that 4-1 win in the final of the 1970 World Cup was Pele, who last week was criticising the current Brazil side.
He gave an interview during which he was drawing tactical diagrams, explaining that in comparison with his day, the team's central midfield play is "bureaucratic." It is an observation that many purists would agree with - for what it's worth, the present writer among them.
Dunga's Brazil don't care - and, while they are racking up wins as convincing as Sunday's against Italy, why on earth should they?
Whether or not they go on to win the Confederations Cup, the most important thing is that Brazil have put their cards on the table and shown that in a year's time, in the real thing, they will be right there among the favourites to lift the first World Cup on African soil.
Dunga's Brazil, with Gilberto Silva and Felipe Melo in centre midfield, are not and will never be Pele's, with Clodoaldo and Gerson. The change reflects a switch in philosophy of Brazilian football which is a reaction to two things. Firstly, the rise in northern European football in the 60s and 70s, and especially the pressure that the Holland side of 1974 put on the ball. Second, the failure of Brazil's wonderfully gifted 1982 team.
The thinking is as follows - the physical development of the game has made it much harder for teams to play an expansive passing style through the middle of the field. Instead, matches are won and lost at two key moments - set pieces and transitions (those moments when possession changes hands from one side to the other).
A glance at Brazil's recent performances will show how much attention they pay to these two situations.
They have been scoring lots of goals from free kicks and corners. Brazil count on players who can whip the ball in at pace, lots of tall players to attack the ball and an impressive variety of options. My favourite was the free kick from which they were awarded the last-minute penalty which won the game against Egypt.
They had already scored from a corner to the near post, where Egypt were having defensive problems. So that was the expected target area, but instead Daniel Alves chipped to the far, where Lucio got in a volley that was handled on the line. But more than intelligent and effective set pieces, the hallmark of the current Brazil side is its devastating counter-attack. They are probably the only team in the world who, when the opposition have a corner, can legitimately see this as a goalscoring opportunity for themselves.
Coaches all over the globe will be thinking of ways to protect their team against these weapons, studying the trajectory of the free kicks and trying to work out how to stop the counter-attack at source. Before next year, then, Dunga will have to come up with some variations. In the evolution of the team, he has already made one interesting switch.
Last year Brazil were having real problems at home. The away results were good - the opposition were pushing up and playing into their counter-attack. In front of their own fans, though, it was a different story. Being held 0-0 at home by Bolivia was one of the most surprising results in the history of South American football. Their previous home match was a goalless draw with Argentina. The next one was a 0-0 draw with Colombia.
In none of these matches Brazil looked like scoring. The solution was to free Maicon to crash forward from right back with his terrifying physical power and considerable technical ability. This was done by dropping an attacking midfielder (effectively Ronaldinho) and bringing in Elano on the right of midfield, to cover Maicon, double up down the flank or cut inside as required.
In the last couple of matches, this role has been filled by the livewire Ramires, giving Brazil another rapid option to launch the counter-attack. But this comes at a price. It pulls the midfield over to the right, and leaves the left back unprotected - a problem exacerbated by the fact that neither Kleber nor Andre Santos look entirely convincing in the position.
On Thursday we will see if South Africa can exploit this gap. In the semi-final Brazil will get a taste of their own medicine. The Bafana Bafana are coached by a Brazilian and, on the evidence of Saturday's match against Spain, Joel Santana has them looking a bit like a current Brazilian team.
Spain are a side of nimble ball players who look to pass their way through the opposition - the very style Brazil have abandoned. For a while South Africa had some success against them, packing central midfield with three markers and seeking to spring forward down the flanks, where roving full-backs were linking up with the wide, creative midfielders - just as Dunga's Brazil did when they beat Argentina, another old fashioned passing side, in the final of the 2007 Copa America.
Assuming that Brazil beat South Africa and Spain get past the USA, that could also be the blueprint for the final of this year's Confederation Cup.
UK users can watch all of the Confederations Cup games live on the BBC Sport website, while television coverage is on BBC Three as well as the red button.
Comments on this week's piece in the space provided. Other questions on South American football to vickerycolumn@hotmail.com.and I'll pick out a couple for next week.
From last week's postbag;
Q) I noticed my club Liverpool were linked with a move for a Uruguayan midfield player, Nicolás Lodeiro, who is playing with Nacional. Just wondered if you could tell me any more about him? I saw reports suggesting that Barcelona were also monitoring his progress, would you say that Liverpool/Barcelona were a level he was capable of reaching? I also saw some rather fanciful comparisons with Leo Messi, but is that simply lazy stereotyping? Any information would be appreciated.
Neil Jones
A) He's my favourite thing this year. Little left-footed attacking midfielder - but less of a dribbler than Messi, more of a passer. Makes the game flow so well because he usually knows what he's going to do before he receives the ball. Made a big impression at the start of the year in he South American Under-20 Championships, then went straight into the Nacional side and is their top scorer as they've reached the Libertadores semis for the first time since they last won the thing in 1988. I think he's starting to look a bit tired, which is no wonder.
I have very high hopes of him, but would hope that he doesn't move right away to a club where he won't be getting a regular game.
Q) Sao Paulo's star player Hernanes has been doing pretty well by all accounts in Brazil and many commentators over there have said he is ready for a big European move. Do you think AC Milan supposed interest make him automatically 'Kaka's successor', or do you think he's a different player altogether?
Speedy Gonzalez
A) I rate him very highly and think the time has come for him to move. He's not Kaka at all - rather than someone who runs at the opposing defence with the pace, power and directness of Kaka, he's someone who should be used a bit further back. He is versatile, but stands out for his ability to pass the ball well off either foot. For reasons mentioned in the article above, nowadays Brazil can be cruel on this type of player - they would rather fill central midfield with athletes and markers - and confusion about his role has been a factor in a slump of form recently.
For last week's key quarter-final match in the Libertadores Sao Paulo left him on the bench in favour of a bully boy marker who was sent off in the first half. It is one of the most depressing selections I've ever seen and it got what it deserved.
Rather than Milan, I'd prefer to see Hernanes in Spain - as soon
A glorious history, a rich culture, a production line of exciting players... South American football is endlessly fascinating. I cover the continent from my base in Rio.
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~12~RS~)
Comments
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As a Wigan fan, and under the guidance of our new manager Roberto Martinez, it is likely that we will be seeing the more creative midfielder based around passing and technical accumen, at the DW Stadium this coming season.
One worry I have is that we will be drowned out by this kind of playing style. Packing the midfield with tough tackling midfielders and strong battlers is common place in the Premier League and is why although it is higher quality, it is not as exciting to see as La Liga. We may struggle to cope against this style of midfield and it could be a case of Spain v Brazil in the PL - although on a much less ilustrious scale.
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Completely off-topic Tim, but what do you reckon of Javier Pastore - the attacking midfielder currently leading Huracan's Argentinian title charge??
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it is likely that we will be seeing the more creative midfielder based around passing and technical accumen
http://mnurl.com/tt3sb
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Watching Brazil in the Confederations Cup, I thought they were much better team in the second and final group game with Ramires in the side than they were in the first with Elano.
I wasn't overly impressed with the 4-3 victory over Egypt, it was a lesson in how to not keep the ball in midfield, it seemed disjointed to me and it was more frustrating having seen Spain's first group game where the movement through the middle was much more fluid.
However the games against the USA and Italy the performance was much more impressive in no doubt due to the introduction of Maicon, I think highly of Daniel Alves but Maicon deserves to keep the right back slot.
Tim, you've mentioned previously that Fabio Aurelio could be a possible candidate for the left back slot and he's got great technique but I worry about his mobility, no doubt got quality going forward but he isn't very rapid.
I would love to see Ronaldinho become the star of the team in Milan next season, I thought when he joined the club last year that his second season would be his most important. If he shows good form I'd like to think he would get recalled again by Dunga, but I wonder with Robinho playing whether he is needed in the starting 11 especially when Robinho has been playing in the area of the pitch you may expect Ronaldinho to slot in. While Robinho is a fabulously gifted footballer but he's perhaps not as spectacular as Ronaldinho can be.
Having said all that there is something that has been playing on my mind for a very long time in relation to Ronaldinho, did 2006 break Ronaldinho mentally? His reputation was astronomical, he was invaluable to club and country, the pressure and expectation upon him in the lead up to the summer of '06 couldn't have been any greater, he was built up to be super human, his ability almost fictional and I'm not sure when the last time a player was placed under those extraordinary circumstances. Mentally could he carry the burden and is it why his form hasn't been the same since pre-World Cup 2006?
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Good article Tim.. I have been waiting for your blog since I started work at 9am..it's always an opprotuniy to take the usual break intervals from work.
As much as I will like to think that the current Brazillian team depend largely on counter attack, they have also scored few goals from open play like Maicon's goal against USA which was from one touch passing. Pele's criticism has become regular and I have decided to take his remarks with a pinch of a salt since he said USA's Freddy Adu will be the next pele. Ramires and Maicon have recently put in a good shift leaving D.Alves and Elano on the bench. Brazil have always been regarded as favourite in every tournament they have participated in and they are real favourites for the WC 2010 but do you think they have enough personality on the bench that can come in and make a difference when things are not going their way or if a key player picks up injury (Fabiano) Nilmar or Pato are not world beater which leaves a place for the great De Lima.. Do you think Dunga might call on Ronaldinho and De Lima for the Wc 2010 if they get back to form?
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Another team, although a club side, that can see the opposition's corner as a legitimate goal scoring opportunity is Arsenal. My memory fails, but I think it was either Harry Redknapp or Steve Bruce who adviced their team to try and not win corner kicks against Arsenal, because the potential counter attacks were deemed too dangerous.
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5 - I'm assuming your referring to Ronaldo when you say De Lima. I think there is every chance he will be involved in the WC 2010 providing he is fit. Class is permanent afterall.
I do think your being harsh on both Nilmar and Pato though. Pato is still very young and I feel there is far too much weight on his shoulders to lead the Milan and Brazil forward line which is not doing him any good at all. Nilmar meanwhile may not have the media circus following him like Ronadlo but his form this year has been excellent and equally as good as Ronaldo's, if not better. (Search for his goal against Corinthians earlier this season). I just don't think Nilmar has been given a decent chance in the Brazil side. The guy has blistering pace, deadly inside the box and is an asset to the Selecao.
Matt
http://internacionaluk.blogspot.com/
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I don't think Elano should be anywhere near a Brazil starting position... I don't think he even looks fit enough the majority of the time, heavy legs and weary when he gets the ball.
I think it may be unconventional and may not work but when you have 2 players with the ability and athleticism of Alves and Maicon whats wrong with playing them both??
They both attack exceptionally well and have defensive qualities.. these are pre-requisites of wingers, wing backs and full backs these days.. they would be able to switch and cover each others position more effectively than the usual winger and back partnership
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The Confederation's Cup has provided more questions than answers.
Brazil were frankly 'fortunate' to get the win over Egypt in match one,
Egypt then beat a poor looking Italy only to get humped by USA who had been the clowns of the group. So while yes, you can argue Brazil have three wins from three...but against what exactly? The club football mantra of 'grinding out wins' has transferred to the International stage and in that respect my symapthies lie with Pele.
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Great analysis, as always.
Two quick questions:
1. With his current form and with the Brazil's style of play that you surveyed in your text, do you still see a role for Ronaldinho in the team, both in the qualifyings as well as in the WC itself?
2. Left back has definitely been a real trouble for Brazil. Juca Kfouri, a local sports journalist, came out with a possble second-best solution: switch one of the right backs to the left. What do you think about this?
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This debate is always posed as either Brasil have to play 'pure' football or they try and play totally as the Europeans play. This is a nonsense, and I am sure that Dunga is student enough of the great heritage of Brasil to know what he is aiming for.
After the failure of 1950 and the loss to the great Hungarian side in 1954, in 1958 the Brasilian team was prepared by scientists and doctors and trained in Europe. They incorporated European styles of play but did not try to ape or copy them. They retained their skills and approach. It was this that won the World Cup, and the game where they came of age and showed that the hard, physical, scientific approach was no match for them was v. USSR where they won 2-0. Chile was the culmination of that teams maturity even though Pele was injured - the destruction of Uruguay a key point. 1966 they had a difficult time against European styles because they had neither prepared as before and were in a transition period with the older players ready for retirement and the younger ones not ready. For 1970, they prepared again for the European teams, studying their tactics, incorporating what was needed (not much) but retaining their own style. They also had a team that had an old guard at their peak and a young guard that had matured enough to stand on their own. So we had the greatest team ever. No one will match them.
The turn to only a European style of play was a big mistake. They forgot to incorporate and simply followed, whereas previosly they had led. But putting the debate at this level is also nonsense and denigrates the skills and abilities of both Holland (surely more modelled on Brasil) and West Germany. The case of West Germany is important because there is a bigotry here that needs addressing. Beckanbauer, Netzer, Hoeness, Breitner and Muller had their own abilities and expressed them to the fullest extent. They were more than a match for the Dutch in all departments and in Muller they had probably the greatest international goalscorer.
The whole idea that there is a 'European' style of play that involves rigid organization, heavy physical play and that the inevitability is that musclebound teams will rule is garbage. Indeed, as West Germany found out to their cost when the unfancied and disorganized Italians gave them a lesson in 1982.
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Tim, Arsenal are reportedly in for Felipe Melo, what can you tell me about his weaknesses? I know his strengths but would he fit in our team, is he technically good enough and could he be like Gilberto for us?
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Brazil are on of the favourites for the World Cup - really? Brazil are always one of the favourites, whats new?!
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To be honest the way Brazil play these days, Ronaldinho may not get into the team again. All the forwards tend to work very hard to help in defending( a case in point Ramires). Barcelona play the same way when they're defending every body comes back to help. Arsenal can take a page from this great footballing philosophy instead of always over-emphasizing on talent.
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#13 - precisely.
However, does anyone seriously see the defence that they have shown in the Confederations Cup standing a hope in hell of stopping Spain? It'd be slaughter.
If the spaniards continue as they are I don't think we should be looking at anything other than who will lose in the final of WC2010. Spain have got to be collosal favourites.
They dropped the shadows of past in Euro 2008 and they look phenomenal at present. It doesn't matter if Kaka, Robinho and co. get it together in South Africa. If they concede 2 or 3 goals every game they're going home sooner than they'll want.
The Netherlands, Germany and England will all be able to point to easy qualification too whilst only Holland have given what look like convincing performances.
Brazil v Spain in the final? Maybe. Holland v Spain? More likely.
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10 - no, I can't see any point in switching either maicon or daniel alves to the left. I don't think brazil are looking for a right footed player in that position - the idea is tokeep the pitch wide for the counter.
But there's nothing stopping them playing together, daniel alves on the right of midfield, the role he filled when he came on as a sub early in the copa america final.
ronaldinho back in - a tricky one. dunga says that he's very much in his plans, but.... he was picking a line of kaka, robinho and ronaldinho behind the striker and it never really worked - there was a sense that the 3 of them got in each other's way - the team has worked better with the current blend.
and yes, i do think the 2006 failure is a trauma in ronaldinho's mind. a similar thing happened, though on a smaller scale, after he flopped in the 2000 olympics.
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Great Blog as always Tim
Just wandering if there is any chance that we will see Adriano or Ronaldo back in a Brazil shirt for the 2010 WC.
Thanks
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ronaldinho back in - a tricky one. dunga says that he's very much in his plans, but.... he was picking a line of kaka, robinho and ronaldinho behind the striker and it never really worked - there was a sense that the 3 of them got in each other's way - the team has worked better with the current blend.
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I agree, though I can't help feeling that come next summer it would be a mistake for Brazil to not play Ronadinho, if that means potentially sacraficing Robinho to the Bench then that's the move I would look to make.
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"15,
Brazil's defense is fine, first game against Egypt was an exception.
Their defence was poor in the first game of Copa America.
Their defence has been one of the tightest in qualifiers.
As far as Spain beating Brazil, dream on. Spain's bandwagon is hot, but
Brazil is a level above Spain. Much like Argies in Copa America, Spain will find this out. Brazil scored 3 against a "poor" Italian side. How many Spain scored against this poor side? 0 in 120 minutes.
Brazil are faster and more physical. Xavi, Inieasta, and Fab won't have luxury of time.
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#12.. I don't see Felioe Melo coming to Arsenal.. If he will be leaving Fiorentina then it will be Inter Milan.......
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15 - Holland do look strong but dont they always in group stages? in euro 2008 noone could stop talking about them but they got destroyed by Russia in the knockouts
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I do not think that Brazil has completely abandoned its intricate "through the middle passes." I would like to think the Brazil free-flow play of quick little one-twos is still alive -- albeit coming from different angles rather than just straight though the middle. I feel the goal by Maicon against the USA (while coming from the right side)was as beautiful a futbol play as I have seen in a long while. It was a pretty bit of futbol passing and movement. Would you not agree?
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Hey Tim, Love your blog, people from South Africa can really learn from on how to make happenings debatable.
Well Brazil is looking good.. Spain even Better
Unfortunatly any team on any given day can win any given match ! Right ??
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Surely Brazil have always played with 2 defensive tackling midfielders to allow their full backs to bomb on and attack?
In 94 it was Dunga and Mauro Silva allowing Jorginho and Branco/Leonardo to get forward. In 98 Cesar Sampaio partnered Dunga in the middle allowing Cafu and Roberto Carlos to free license to get forward.
Gilberto Silva has been a mainstay of the midfield since 2002 in a defensive role alongside Kleberson in the 2002 world cup final. I don't see any difference in their current midfield setup to those of the past.
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Hi Tim,
I very much enjoyed your analysis of Brazil's current side and their apparent shift of style of play. I just think you push your argument a bit too far when saying that they have a "distaste for the pasing game". I reckon the Brazilian players would not back up this interpretation, and there is actually plenty of evidence in their last games that they do "switch on" the passing game mode - and losses concentration - when victory seems guaranteed. Yes, counter-attacks have become the main goal scoring method of the Brazilian team under Dunga, but this by no means implies a distaste for the so-called passing game. Very nice post nonetheless.
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Tim
Greatly enjoy your insightful tactical analysis of South American sides. Hopefully the BEEBs TV editors give you a spot on the panel during next years World Cup games featuring teams from Latin America. I'd much prefer to hear your informed take on proceedings than - say - Alan Shearer's.
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Hello, Tim! Could not find your contact details so decided to contact you by means of blog comments. I am PR-Director of FTBL.com. Thank you for linking to our original FTBL rating system. We would really appreciate if you, being the football professional, could tell us your opinion of our rating system. If you wouldn't mind, please drop me a line to ad@ftbl.com. Kind regards.
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#25 - when you say "Surely Brazil have always played with 2 defensive tackling midfielders to allow their full backs to bomb on and attack?" and then quote 1994 onwards, that's kind of the point Tim was making.
In 1994, Brazil had gone 24 years without winning the World Cup despite having so many wonderful players - they then introduced a system with two defensive midfielders and carried the trophy off with a pretty uninspiring team. It's a model they've used since then.
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Yes, Brazil-Spain looks like a possible WC final, but England has a decent chance of spoiling their party. Can't see anyone else, normally you'd add Argentina and Italy to the list, but Argentina is wasting its talent with Maradona as manager, and as for Italy, we saw last night what a pitiful state they are in.
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I would say Brazil will be the big favorite next year. Their football nowadays is not as lovely watching as in the 70s and 80s. A kind of like what Chelsea playing with more talent, faster players. That is my opinion.
Spain is good as well now but I doubt if they can keep up that standard next year. Teams know if they defense deeply, they just like Barcelona which have no plan B. Although during their 35 winning run, they didn't need one, there will be someone that can break it.
For England, I really don't think they should think about winning it at all. It is almost zero chance. If they can get to last 4, it is already very huge.
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Tim
while I will admit Brazil have looked impressive it has been against a very weak group. Italy were about as pathetic as I have ever seen them. Do you honestly think that at the highest of levels a world cup semi and final that Gilberto Silva and felipe melo are good enough to do anything other than defend. They looked just okay defensively and there passing was appalling. Brazil have class in the forwards and a solid defence but the midfield is awful. It remains to be seen what spain will make of them.
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29 - thanks for clearing up 25's point so well - there was indeed football in the world before usa 94, and i used to love the brazil of clodoaldo and gerson, toninho cerezo and falcao.
but that's one of the great things about the game - it can be interpreted in so many different ways. i have my own feel for the game, you can have yours - it's not a right or wrong question.
and 26 - it wasn't me who accused brazil of a 'distaste for the passing game' - i don't write the headlines. My point - and i think we agree on this - is that it's not their idea of how to arrive at the opposing goal, so it's not what they are set up to do. Not necessarily 'distaste' - more a tactical preference.
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Interesting to see Kleberson back in the Brazil side against Italy. I watched him for Flamengo last year and I couldnt beleive how he ever managed to blag a move to Man Utd. Fair play to the lad though.. boy done good!
Anyway, Brazil are looking good for WC 2010, I would like to see Diego and Fabio Aurellio be given a chace to shine. I think Diego is a quality player and underated by many in the game.
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Yes, Brazil-Spain looks like a possible WC final, but England has a decent chance of spoiling their party. Can't see anyone else, normally you'd add Argentina and Italy to the list, but Argentina is wasting its talent with Maradona as manager, and as for Italy, we saw last night what a pitiful state they are in.
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That is sooo true. Forget about Holland, Germany, Paraguay, Portugal, France e the African teams. Only England has a decent chance of upsetting Brazil and Spain. After all, who can beat England's intricate long ball game - they can come from everywhere! Every team in the WC will fear England's "forward at all cost" style of play (aka "high tempo") - never mind they have never won anything in international football in the last 40 years (!) to back up how mighty they are.
In fact, England with their current set of skillful players - the best defenders, midfielders, and strikers in the EPL, therefore, in the world - is right there to win the WC next year. The smart money is on England!
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Brazil are a great side going forward, but they can be attacked at the back.
I would respect them greatly, but I wouldn't fear them if I were England.
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First off, it surprises me to see that many Brits don't actually know football! It's a shame! To say Spain will trash everybody on their way because they're breaking records it's absurd! Don't get me wrong they're a formidable side. They have great players like Puyol, Casillas, Xavi, Villa and Torres. Let's also remember that Spain got a really easy group (S Africa, N Zealand and Iraq). To see people here writing off many good teams in the world like Germany, Argentina, Italy, Holland and Brazil is absurd....people, we're not even in the World Cup stop making predictions! To write off Brazil like that is never a good idea. How many times have we seen Brazil play mediocre footie and then go on and win tournaments and BIG games? Plenty!! Brazil is the only team in the world able to beat any team regardless of their form. Let's remember....that record eventually will come to an end, whether it is in the confederations cup or in the world cup. "And when they fall they will fall hard"
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I think that you have to assume that Brazil are going to be very competitive in every competition they enter. What is more interesting is their willingness to focus on situations that will take them over the edge and actually win trophies.
I contrast that to Manchester Uniteds failure against Barcelona, where Ferguson, did nothing to counter Barcelonas play, except hope that Rooney and Ronaldo would score more goals, forgetting that you have to have the ball for that to happen.
I expect Capello to show a lot more tactical acumen, in which case, if Englands best players are fit and play to the level they can, then a semi-final could be a minimum expectation.
Brazils defence seems to get little coverage, but watching them yesterday they were all very assured, and didnt look like conceding at any stage. Tim, what do you think the tactical focus in defence is that delivers such strong results?
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@37 - so true!
I find it hilarious that people here think that only England could stop Spain! Let's not forget that it IS England who always choke when it comes down to it. No one can predict what will happen next year.
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good article tim. remember what is important in football is to score goals and a win. Good, beautiful and entertaining football does not neccessarily win matches as once the 'beautiful' 1982 Brazil world cup team can prove. modern football requires team work, physical, power and technical capability. Brazil has these qualities and a will and confidence to win. Thats why in 2010 world cup are strong candidates to win, ad of course the confederations cup.
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32 - I would like to think that you're right - that lack of passing ability does get them in problems - in quite a few World Cup qualifiers recently they've come under pressure because the midfield can't pass well enough to keep the ball - saving them time and time again has been keeper Julio Cesar.
Indeed, the main difference between the Egypt match and some of the others (away to Ecuador and Uruguay for example) was that this time Julio Cesar wasn't working miracles.
All of us bring our own appreciation of football to the table - my own preference is for elaboration from the centre of midfield - my favourite players are those such as Guardiola and Toninho Cerezo who were masters of this. So the idea of a style of play that turns its back on this type of player is not to my taste.
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Tim,
First of all: good article.
Secondly: what struck me most was the parallels between this Italy and the Italy that was dismantled by Holland on Euro2008 in much the same manner. Swift counter attacks destroyed a once feared Italian defense then, and they did so last night as well. Going forward, Italy produced little in both encounters.
So where does Italy stand? Donadoni was blamed for the failure of the Euro2008 campaign, leading to the return of World Cup winning Lippi. Are we now to believe it hasn't made any difference whatsoever? Do the Italians simply suffer a lack of quality players? What is the Azzurri's status quo?
Thanks,
Daquan.
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Hello Tim,
I love reading your analyses of South-American football and its Europe-based stars. Thank you so much for your insights.
Here is another subject that I'd love to read about. How come Brazil has so many talented footballers? What is their secret? Youth development, genes, sheer number of population, secret football labs in the mountains, or all of the above?
I know you have mentioned it here and there, but I don't think you have ever delved into it. It will be much appreciated if you did.
Thank you,
Blago
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I think it will definitely be between Spain and Brazil. I have a feeling England and a surprise team (Australia for me) could also get to the semi's.
Given a team from Europe has never won the World Cup when its been played outside of Europe, I would have to pick Brazil.
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#30 "Argentina is wasting its talent with Maradona as manager" - I thought that Maradona was a stupefyingly bad appointment, when has he ever shown the qualities for such a role? In 2006, the then manager's bizarre decision not to bring on Messi in their last match possibly cost them the World Cup.
#15 - I live in Brisbane, but was in Whitley Bay in June 07 and never saw the sun! Hope it's improved since.
#Everybody, this blog has probably the highest standards of any sports blog I've come across, thanks to Tim and all posters.
I was impressed with Robhino, can't see Ronaldhino replacing him, the dummy from his one-two in making the second goal which took out both defenders was terrific.
#27 - Tim for Shearer on the BBC's panel - have to agree, Big Al's playing ability hasn't yet translated to insightful punditry, and there'd be better balance with an expert on the South American teams.
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I agree Brazil look weak in the midfield, definately a counter attacking team because of this inferiority.
Personally I would like to see Brazil play Ramires and Anderson as they are athletic and will give energy in the middle of the park. This would allow a player like Hernanes the freedom to pass and direct proceding a la Riquelme when he played for Argentina (although not as high up the pitch). This would offer that link between midfield and attack that Brazil are missing and a quality passer of the ball, thus not relying so much on the counter.
If these 3 players can be playing full time next season and improve, especially Hernanes moving to Europe then I would like to see this midfield given a chance.
Also having seen Pato this season I would put him ahead of Robinho, alongside Luis Fabiano and Kaka.
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Hi Tim,
Great article as usual. First time posting. I was wondering what has happened with Anderson of Man Utd. is there any reason he has not been playin for Brazil in the Confederations Cup?
Are the views on him similar to those mentioned in the previous artice or is it that he is not rated highly in Brazil and there is a general dissapointmeent that he has not developed as he should have?
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44 - If England reach the semi-finals they will be the surprise team. England didn't qualify for the last major tournament(Euro 2008), how can people expect them to be favorites to anything? I know their form has improved with Fabio Capello(I'm strongly against foreigner managers on national-sides), but is it enough?
1st -) They're untested against big nations.
2nd -) They don't seem to have enough strength-in-depth. (Example, they lack a flair midfielder. Joe Cole is the best and yet not as good as Gerrard and Lampard in their functions. A goalkeeper, right full-back, a holding midfielder, a partner for Rooney, etc, etc, etc)
3rd -) They don't look anywhere near impressive(Holland does, and yet they're not among the favorites, are they?)
Brazil seems to lack a left-back, a little bit more fluidity(drop Gilberto and get Hernanes) in their midfield, and that's all! Spain(doesn't lack anything, Argentina(lacks a manager and full-backs), Germany, Holland, France, RUSSIA!(Impressive on the Euro! If not for Spain they would have on it), Chile(Impressive under Bielsa), Cameroon,
all look more impressive than England.
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I have recently seen your appearance in Brazilian sports channel SporTV (along with Abel "dumb-as-a-door" Braga) and went on to search for your blog on the Internet. I just want to congratulate you for the quality of your articles. Can't wait for the next one...
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Sorry for double-posting, but I just noticed a fellow "atleticano" posted right before me. I agree generally with what he said... but to put Chile and Russia with more chances than England in the WC is just absurd. It is England, after all.
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Only acute delusion and wishful thinking can explain why are people here deeming England as a potential WC semi-final contender. Are you guys serious?? They beat the likes of Andorra and Belarus and now people think they are in the same group of Brazil, Argentina, Spain, etc. Passion can indeed cloud our judgement, can't it?
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47 - Anderson was originally named in the squd , pulled out through injury and ex Man U's Kleberson was called up as a replacement,
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I predict if Spain play Brazil in the final then they will lose. Why? Two reason: No Senna and no Iniesta.
This great Spain side (and it is a great side with 15 straight wins and other records) is built on a spine of Casillas, Senna, Xavi, Iniesta and Villa. If you take two of those out of that spine, the team loses a lot.
Brazil are one of few teams who could exploit any sniff of weakness in Spain.
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Just a word on S Africa, who I find very much improved on previous years. Just a shame they can't find a goalscorer for love or money! Santana would have to have them all practice shooting for the next year, but on Thursday, although I'd like to see Bafana move the ball about well, I expect a rout.
As for Italy, I agree with #32 - Italy were really pathetic. I never thought they were worthy WC winners to begin with (though I admit you don't win it by accident), and I haven't been impressed with them since. In fact, I believe they made Brazil look even better than they are, and I expect Spain to dominate Brazil comprehensively in the final (inasmuch as anyone can dominate Brazil comprehensively).
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50 - Okay, I might have exaggerated with Chile, but why not Russia?
53 - I agree, but seeing the Euro 2008 I'd say that Torres is as important as Villa.
Villa may have scored more frequently now, but in the Euro it was the opposite(3 of Villa 4 goals came from one match), so they have in both of them, a very good attack partnership.
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watching the confederation cup, i can see brazil effort in the left back of A. Santos to replace Roberto Carlos, is he good enough, what do u know of him?
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I Totally agree with 43, Can you please inform us more on the secret of Brazil ?
Could always be the Futsal they focus on so much ?? culture ?? Population...etc
A Analysis would be much appreciated
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My theory on why Brazilians are so good at football is because that's all poor boys like to play when they are kids. Posher boys swim, play tennis or volleyball, poor boys can only play football. The weather is always good to play outside, it can be played anywhere and a ball is the cheapest toy one can buy and it's easy to improvise one. Football is always in the TV or radio and any boy wants to be the next Ronaldinho. The money and fame is not only the big incentive to get rich and famous but the only way of having a better life out of the slums. It's in fact a combination of factors, not just one specific reason such as DNA.
Anyway, let's see what Mr Vickery says about this interesting subject. I don't think he will bless us with a third post in a row about Brazil but it will be lovely to hear his views about this "mystery" at some point.
I watched the match and Brazil was pretty devastating in the first half. Didn't bother to watch the second half as had kitchen to clean up, but husband kept shouting angrily at De Rossi from living room. I had to patiently explain to him what was this Confederations Cup about, he knew nothing about it. Then he was disappointed to see his beloved Italy crashing out. Oh, well!
I hope Spain wins this cup or whoever, but not Brazil. This is worth nothing, it's not a preview for anything, just nice watching some good football now that the season is closed. Spain is getting very overhyped at the moment which is great, they will go to the WC thinking it's in the bag. Just because you won the Eurocup, it doesn't mean that much nowadays. Can anyone remember who won in 2004?
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If the left back slot has some unconvincing candidates, why not use Fabio Aurelio???????? I guess others have said the same idea- but I just thought I'd say it again.
Anyway, I think Spain MIGHT win the final should they meet Brazil (which is looking a certain possibility) even without Iniesta and Senna. They just need to keep the ball and not get struck on one of Brazil's trademark counter attacks. Easier said than done but they could well do it.
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Also, by the way, ballontheground is so wrong...
"That is sooo true. Forget about Holland, Germany, Paraguay, Portugal, France e the African teams. Only England has a decent chance of upsetting Brazil and Spain."
Holland have been in top form at the minute and could beat Brazil if they exploit the right areas on the counter themselves and Germany are a big game side who does better than expected (like when they were getting battered by Turkey's reserves but still came out victorious in the Euros).
With the likes of France, Portugal, Paraguay and the African teams though, there is a valid point. France probably more likely to beat Brazil than any of the others mentioned, but Portugal??? They got battered 6-2 by Brazil in a friendly last year so they won't stand a chance (and Ronaldo isn't much of a team player anyway, and he disappears in big games for Portugal- remember the Euros?) I can say the same of the others- even Africa's form teams Ghana and Cote D'Ivoire (even with Essien and Drogba respectively) and South America's once form team Paraguay (who if I'm right in saying actually beat Brazil).
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
#57 & #43
Not sure if this ticks the box, but you could do a lot worse that checking out the following book
Futebol: The Brazilian Way of Life by Alex Bellos.
This book is all encompassing, detailing how intrinsic football is to Brazilian culture, and likewise how Brazil is to the global footballing culture. It's a great read, quite simply. And the Preface is provided by Socrates, which is the cherry on the bun.
Give it a bash.
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As a liverpool fan I rate Fabio Aurelio very highly. I think he's better than all of the brazilian left backs I've seen since Roberto Carlos. Technically gifted, brilliant set piece, very good positionally. Only problem is injuries but last season he managed to play a lot of matches so I'm suprised he hasn't been mentioned in terms of the national team.
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Nice blog. One thing we can be sure of, and we can put our houses on it, is that it will not be England lifting the gleaming gold trophy next summer. Not a chance. Not with other teams playing as teams regardless of their ego`s. Lampard, Ferdinand, not a hope, these individuals will never ever play as one together, they are much more interested in personal accolades than uniting as a national team.
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Re:12
I think Melo is as good a defensive MF as Flamini, Makelele, Mascherano etc, if not better. His introduction into the Brazil team seems to have given their playmakers more time on the ball.
His main weakness is bookings. He recieved 18 yellow cards and 3 red cards last term with Fiorentina. While being the right sort of tough guy that you always lack against the likes of Blackburn, i can easily see him getting sent off in MUST-WIN matches especially in Europe where the referees are always happy to whistle.
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Brazil = over rated. They beat a terrible Italian side, worst I can remember, and only just squezed past Egypt!! Player for player they are far from incredible (One injury and you have a hard to fill Kaka shaped hole). I agree that they will be one of the favourites for the World Cup, but they always are, no matter how good/bad they are at the time. As a devout England fan, I would not fear meeting the World Cup. There are only two teams who are a bit worrying and that is Holland and Spain, and if we came up against any of these two, I wouldn't like to call a winner, it would be very close (and remember, Spain are just as good as we are at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory).
Oh, and don't get me started on the current over hyped (yet stalling) Argrntina side.
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Tim (and anyone else who wishes to comment),
Great blog as usual, I was just wondering what your thoughts on Anderson were. Like you said, Brazil appear to favour two strong marking central midfield players, sacrificing from ball playing ability, yet down to strange decision of the Manchester United coaches, Anderson has been taught to mark and defend very well, and yet still possesses the abiltity to make surging forward runs, link the play and be a general attacking threath. Could he be the midway point?
(I personally would love to see Hernanes and Anderson in there, but I don't pretend to have superior knowledge than the Brazil coaches, so thats neither here nor there)
Also glad to see this has become a another board for "How good/bad are England"..Yawwwn
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Crikey.. Grammatically that is terrible! Sincerest apologies
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Davidman
One difference between England and Spain is that Spain DID snatch victory the last I remember - they have actually won something in the last 40yrs. England have been experts at snatching defeat from the jaws of PRESUMED victory... there is a difference. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like to call a winner, because you know it almost certainly will not be England.
And I wont get you started on the 'over-hyped' Argentina side... but if they play to even half their potential, with the best player in the world amongst their ranks, then I would fancy them against anyone. Especially the obvious.
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Split_loyalties
You know, I'm intrigued by Anderson also. The CL final didn't do his rep any favours, granted, but it is perhaps a touch harsh to single him out (especially with Iniesta on such form etc). I mean, Vidic is still standing at the turnstiles in Rome, I reckon.
With his 'formative' years in the P'ship, he has surely acquired the graft needed to play such a position , and also seems to have the technical ability. I'm in a bit of a minority amongst my mates etc, but I think he could still develop into a great player.
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Yes TaconazoRedondo - well observed, Spain have won something recently, but prior to that you have to go back two years further than England for their last and only other achievement. Apart from last year, Spain have a worse tournament record than us, and they almost always enter a quality team; Which leads me to believe they have just as much chance of cocking it up next years as anyone else, despite their current side. The reason I wouldn't like to call a winner between England and Spain in a World Cup match is solely because I could see it going either way, not because 'it almost certainly will not be England'.
And regarding your reply to my Argentina comment; One man doesn't make a team, and again, like I said about Brazil and Kaka, if Messi is injured they have a decidedly average team. On the flip side, you could say the same about England and Rooney, but Gerrard or Cole can adequetley fill the Rooney shaped hole. I personally would love to meet the Argies at the World Cup, I am far from scared of them, and contrary to your statement it is not 'obvious' that they would beat England in the World Cup. If they play to even half their potential they are getting the first flight home my friend.
I do not buy into this 'no one has a chance except Brazil, Argentina or Spain' mindset that people seem to be in. There is as much chance of any of them going out in the group stages as there is any of them winning the thing. And some of the other names people are throwing around are laughable - Italy; they are shockingly bad at the moment, Portugal; they probably won't even qualify (which just goes to support my one man doesn't make a team statement), France; it is now 2009, not 1999.
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Hi Tim, excellent article yet again. Recent reports have emerged again linking Gremio's Douglas Costa with European powerhouses and more specificaly Manchester United. I do not watch a lot of South American football and would like to know How well you rate the midfielder and if you think he is ready to make the larger step up. Thanks Tim.
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Davidman
One man doesn't make a team... unless that man is Maradona. And I'm curious as to how Messi will perform in the next World Cup; He will have Aguero & Tevez for company amongst others, and he is the closest player to Maradona we have ever seen. Almost seems like fate?
I think your point is that if you take a key player out of any one team, it leaves a gap that may be difficult to fill? That's hardly a leap across the intellectual abyss though, is it? As you point out, it applies equally to England as much as the other teams mentioned (or perhaps even more so if I again point out that the other teams mentioned have also won something in recent memory).
Take Kaka from Brazil, and you have Robinho, possibly (though not likely) Ronaldinho, as well as Luis Fabiano up front. Messi still has the likes of Aguero, Tevez, and Riquelme. France have Ribery, Nasri, Henry, Benzema...
Take Rooney out, and yes, you have the possiblity Gerard stepping up. But you'll still have Peter Crouch up front. Or Emile Heskey.
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Well said TaconazoRedondo.............Like this
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TaconazoRedondo - I am curious to see if Messi will even get the chance to perform at next years World Cup. And correct, my key player/gap scenario is hardly a leap across the intellectual abyss, but it is merely an observation of the obvious.
I am not trying to make out that England are better than the likes of Spain, Brazil and Argentina, but what I would say is that there is only one of these teams that are clearly better than England as we speak, and they are not South American.
Also, I have no shame in having Crouch up front, I think his record speaks for itself.
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The Vuvuzela is an annoying plastic trumpet also known as a stadium horn that is constantly blown at all soccer/football matches in South Africa. It sounds like a deafening mix of angry elephants trumpeting, a swarm of buzzing bees and a fog horn. What can we do? Go to http://www.banvuvuzela.com/ Register with your name, country and email and then vote. Tell your friends and family to do so too. It is our intention to submit these votes to the relevant authorities who can do something about it. Together we can make our 2010 World Cup the best experience for all.
http://www.banvuvuzela.com/
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Davidman,
Are you on drugs or you are simply clueless?
First:
"if Messi is injured they have a decidedly average team."
If Argentina without Messi is average, there mus be as many teams below such Argentina as there are above them - after all they are "average". Does that make sense? I can think of 40 teams teams below Argentina without Messi, but cannot think of 40 teams better than that. Therefore, even without Messi, they cannot be average! (no worries, everybody but you knows that)
Second:
"I am not trying to make out that England are better than the likes of Spain, Brazil and Argentina, but what I would say is that there is only one of these teams that are clearly better than England as we speak, and they are not South American".
Ahahahha. Another silly sentence. If you believe that England is not better than Brazil, Argentina and Spain, and only Spain can beat England, that means either (1) England is worse than Brazil and Argentina, or (2) as good as them. It cannot be (1) cuz you think only Spain can beat England (!!). So it must be (2). But then, how come a team that is as good as Brazil and Argentina has not qualified for the Euro and has never won anything - I said anything - in the last 40 years? Get a grip mate.
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ballontheground - I did not say anywhere that only Spain can beat England, anyone could beat England just as anyone could beat Spain, Brazil and Argentina, we are talking about football after all. What I am trying to point out is that this apparent gulf in class between England and the South Americans is none existent at the time being, we are not below them in any way, and having said that, I don't necessarily think we are above them in any way. Equal, but with different qualities.
OK, fair point about the decidedly average statement, I maybe got a bit carried away in order to prove my point that they are over hyped and over rated, there is obviously not 40 odd teams better than the Argies.
I just get sick of the constant hyping up of Brazil and Argentina. Yes, they are both good teams, but they are far removed from they hype surrounding them, particularly the Argies.
"how come a team that is as good as Brazil and Argentina has not qualified for the Euro and has never won anything - I said anything - in the last 40 years? Get a grip mate."
The reason we failed to qualify for the Euros was because of Mclaren, the bloke had no clue. Our fortunes have totally changed under Capello with much the same team. The team that failed to qualify was good enough not only to qualify but to do well at the Euros, we just had a terrible manager. Also, I will reiterate; Until last summer Spain had not won anything for over 40 years, we all knew they were capable, like a handfull of other teams, but no body seemed to point out that they had won nothing since 64.
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Davidman - fair play. But why would you be curious as to whether Messi 'will even get the chance' to perform at 2010? Explain...
My point is simply that I do not rate the current English team. It's nice that you're not ashamed of Crouch... you say that his record speaks for itself. Statistics can be plucked to mould even the most ludicrous arguments. Others simply just use their own eyes.
Me - I think he's a set of teeth on legs. As much use as a hairdryer on a motorbike.
Gerrard and Rooney are the 2 players from the England team that merit mention. Walcott is a greyhound - you have to wonder how he will handle defences with experience, guile and graft. Lampard? We all know how that story of continual International underachievement ends. Dead horse. Joe Cole?? A good player, but I just feel that players like Aguero, Arshavin, Ribery etc are all a class above.
The technical aspects of England's shortcomings also seem to be repeatedly exposed - France, Portugal, Spain... 3 European teams that have gotten the better of England in recent times (granted, Portugal needed PK's yaddah yaddah). And despite the 4-1 qualifier recently, Croatia also outclassed England on home soil not so long ago, on a night when Gerrard & Co. certainly looked no better than the likes of Modric etc.
It's almost a tradition that with every major International tournie, England's chances are talked up... mostly by England fans?. And every tournie, England get found out. This time, they have a weaker squad than most England squads we have seen...
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Personally, I definitely class cole in the same league as Aguero, Ribery, and Arshavin. Crouch is a more skillful player than people like to believe, not world class but quality nonetheless, granted he looks like bambi on ice and I think people can't get past that.
And with regards to the Portugal game, we outplayed them all match with ten men and without our very own 'Messi', we were very unlucky.
I agree with your analysis of Walcott, he lacks the technique to compliment his pace, but he is very young so lets see how he pans out. Lampard is not always an underachiever, he was immense for us between 2003-05, he just been inconsistent since, plus he occupies a similar role to both Rooney and Gerrard, so it is almost impossible for all three to play to their full abilities together - at least one is going to have to take a back seat.
Im am not saying we will win the World Cup, but I would say we are in with as much of a chance as Brazil and Argentina. I totally agree about the bigging up of the England side before tournaments, but that happens in every country with a bit of ambition.
My argument today is with the unfounded bigging up of Brazil and Argentina, and I only used my own country as they are the best benchmark I have to make a point with.
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Davidman, Brazil > England, in ALMOST EVERY DEPARTMENT. Taking the last game of the two teams, I found this:
Goalkeeper? Julio Cesar is better than Hart, that portsmouth guy I forgot the name, Green, whoever you want.
Right full-back, not only Maicon is the best full-back in the world, Daniel Alves is the best wing-back on the world! Who's Glen Johnson? Not even impressive for Portsmouth.
Centre-backs, Lucio and Juan is a formidable partnership, Terry and Ferdinand may be good, but I still have Lucio ahead of Terry(faster, stronger, braver) and Juan ahead of Ferdinand(they are very close, but I always felt that Juan is better technically)
Left full-back, Cashley Cole is better than everybody that Dunga has been using, but I feel that Maxwell is better than him. He is fantastic for Internazionale, but never been called...
Defensive Midfielder, Gilberto Silva is a better than.. who was the last defensive midfielder who played for england? Hargreaves? I like him. But Silva is fantastic for defensiveness. But nobody played this role for Andorra.
Midfielder, Felipe Melo is another very good defensive midfielder, but England plays with... David Beckham. Who's old, slow and may be a fantastic crosser, but I'd stand and have Melo.
Midfielder, Ramires is clearly not as famous as Lampard, but he has showed a lot more will and determination. Very athletic and fast, I put him against a man who is very good shooter and a very important player for Chelsea. Lampard may be better today, but I'd bet in Ramires in the long term, the kid is amazing.
Midfielder, Kaka and Gerrard. Two of the big names of today. Gerrard may be important for Liverpool and a very good "box-to-box" midfielder, but it is Kaka the star of today's football. Only Messi and Cristiano are as good as him. Only.
Forward, Robinho and Rooney. Last season Rooney got the edge, I agree, but Robinho is a fantastic player, good dribbler, good passer, creative. I'd have Rooney for his last season, but if Robinho can get himself again mind-fit, he'll be one of the best in the world.
Striker, Luis Fabiano and Peter Crouch. HA-HA-HA. That's not even a contest, is it? Luis Fabiano is WAY better.
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"Davidman - fair play. But why would you be curious as to whether Messi 'will even get the chance' to perform at 2010? Explain...
"
Forgot to answer that. My point being, there is more than a slight chance that Argentina won't qualify for the World Cup.
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julio cesar
maicon
lucio
juan
marcelo
anderson
melo
ronaldinho
kaka
robinho
luis fabiano
- if that's brazils world cup team they'll probably win it. gilberto has to go though.
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Davidman - true. After watching some of Argentina's recent WC Qual's, it's no cert that we'll have the privilege of seeing Messi in South Africa. I'm still pretty sure they will do enough however.
Paraguay and Chile have been worthy though, have to say. The football of the latter especially has been a joy at times, and they have an Argentine coach in charge... lovely irony there. The recent 2-0 victory over the former, in Asuncion no less, means Chile look odds-on for 2010.
You've taken a fair bit of flak today mate - fair play :o)
(Crouch? Seriously?...)
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TaconazoRedondo - Haha, no worries mate, can't beat a bit of football banter, why do you think I would come onto a Brazil article and make the bold statement that Brazil and Argentina are over rated? I still stand by it though...Lets just see what happens next year shall we.
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Hey as much as I think Brazil and Spain are the elite of Football of the world, anything is possible in the next two semifinal games. For the psoter that said "USA are the clowns of their Group" eell I see them playing in the semifinal not Italy or Egypt. When it counted the USA scored the three goals. Yes they were helped by Brazil but don't call the USA clowns. I hope there will be a major upset in the semifinal games and I am calling the USA to beat Spain.Don't forget they played Spain close last year and lost 1 nill in the last 10 minutes on Spain's soil.It is about time all you Euro's gave USA player's some respect.
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galoucura:
That is the most biased post I have ever had the misfortune of reading. The only positions that Brazil definitely have the edge over England are the Goalkeeper, right back and possibly the role behind the striker (Julio Cesar, Maicon/D.Alves and kaka). On what planet are Lucio and Juan better than Terry and Rio? That is possibly the best defensive partnership on earth, asides Vidic and Rio again. Capello favours a 4-2-3-1 formation with Rooney slotting in behind the striker, with a view to working back deep to win the ball back. Dunga prefers a 4-2-2-2, with the two full backs providing the width. He plays 2 holding midfielders and 2 attacking minded midfielders. Robinho sometimes drifts over to the left as well. If you took Englands two best holding midfielders; Barry and Hargreaves, im pretty sure most managers would rather have them in their team. Hargreaves was arguably Englands best player in 2006 in Germany, even though he was ridiculed beforehand. Barrys ball retention is second to none.
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87 - Brazil play football currently on another level to our Three Lions I'm afraid.
The problem when you put 11 English players on a pitch together always comes back to technique. English players like Gerrard and Rooney are great individually, but in a team where no-one including themselves is really comfortable on the ball and can't actually move with the ball, it becomes very hard to win matches against top opposition.
Look at Brazil. Each one of the 11 man squad can hold possession if needed and can actually move with the ball instead of the robotic stop and pass that typifies England. The touch of the English players in general is worse. The decision making is often worse (due to nerves often). You add all these things together and you have a side that seems to be only really effective in set-pieces.
I would argue that most sides in Europe can pass the ball around better than England. The real advantage England have is the fitness, strength and organization of our players (defence, set-pieces etc).
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88 - The most sensible and accurate description of the English team I've ever seen.
Posts like 80 and 87 are just laughable. Teams like Brazil and Spain are not out of this world and they're definetely beatable. From this to saying that England is in the same class those two teams are is just ridiculous and cannot be taken seriously.
I wonder why english supporters have such a hard time to come to terms with the fact that England is not a world top team. And more and more people seem to be realising that their third-rate status won't change if they do not change their style of play. I doubt they will in the forseeable time.
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Hackerjack:
"I agree, though I can't help feeling that come next summer it would be a mistake for Brazil to not play Ronadinho, if that means potentially sacraficing Robinho to the Bench then that's the move I would look to make."
Ronaldinho was never a success while playing for Brazil. In 2002, he was only a supporting player to Ronaldo and Rivaldo, only shined in that match with England (and still got a red card) and when became his time to be the star, he was always a failure; see 2000 and 2008 Olympics and 2006 WC. And he hasn't been playing well for over 2 years now. Do what you suggested frankly would be silly at best and utterly stupid at worst.
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Good stuff.
http://onthebreak.wordpress.com/
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I love the way I am mistaken for English when I am Northern Irish. How is my post laughable? You disagree with what I say, trying to demean my opinion in order to make yours seem more valid is somewhat childish.
When did I ever say that AS A TEAM, England were superior ro Brazil? I was comparing individuals, that does not necessarily mean they automatically become a better team. But to say that Spain and Brazil are on another planet is debatable. There is a gap between the teams yes but I doubt they are on another planet.
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Just looking back on your post there 89 I misread it to an extent. I apologise. England are not in the same class but the gap is not as big as you suggest
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87 - What I did is to compare 11 players, I know that both teams play very different tactics, but both play with 11 players on the pitch, right? I got who played the last game for both teams(forgot Walcott, but it was Andorra, you can't play that offensive power against Spain, for example)
Hargreaves WAS impressive in WC 2006 and I said I like him, but I'd have Gilberto Silva ahead of him, I was on the stadium for Brazil x Argentina last year, and the ball simply didn't go to Riquelme, Silva was all over him. He nullified one of Argentina's most dangerous players with an ease that I haven't seen in a long time. Can Hargreaves do the same? I admit seeing him only a little bit(WC 2006 and a few Man Utd games, since England didn't qualify for Euro 2008) but from what I saw, I'd say no.
Lucio is better than Terry, Juan is as good as Ferdinand, look at Bayern Munchen and Roma! Terry is the ideal professional and leader, but that does not cover for his speed, Lucio is the same but pacey. Watching Juan and Rio I see the same player, albeit Juan is better technically.
I'm not saying that Brazil is the ultimate team(Spain is better in every department) just that England isn't as good as it.
There's lot's of teams which are between Spain and England that the English supporters(as we do) ignore, Brazil, Holland, France, Russia, Germany, Argentina, Cameroon, even Italy!(Okay to say they're in a deplorable state, but would you rule them out? They have quality players and if they can get it working, they are among the best, right?)
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Should Spain be a new ruling power, we might catch some insight if the two teams meet. Will Spain be like France who has defeated Brazil 3 times in the World Cup since 1986 and save Argentina's single win in 1990, be unique in that category? 2 of the times during that time span, 1994 and 2002, Brazil won the World Cup and it seems that what France has done, is something England, Germany and Italy are not able to do, at least not recently and at least not on a regular basis.
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Watching Confed Cup - USA have just taken the lead against mighty Spain ...
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94:
G.Silva and Hargreaves are slightly different in certain aspects. Silva tends to be a more accomplished passer and better at ball retention, whereas Hargreaves tends to be more a grafter and tough tackler, more suited to a man-marker. To say one is better than the other is a tough one to call but in my opinion, I would rather have Hargeaves in my team.
Juan may be better technically but as a centre-back, is that really what you want? In 07-08 season, I think Rio was absoloutely immense at the back, some of the displays were the best i've seen my time. I do not watch a lot of Italian football so I cannot make an accurate valuation of Juan but surely if he was better if not as good as Rio, he would surely have more recoginition? Certainly in this part of Europe?
Lucio can sometimes switch off at vital moments, nonetheless he is a top class centre-half.
Yes you cannot write Italy off but they are nowhere near as good as they were 3 years ago
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USA have to be in the 2010 mix after a thoroughly deserved 2-0 win against Spain. While an impeccable Tim Howard was my man-of-the-match, the USA's defensive organisation was superb, nullifying Spain's big guns. The USA were also well organised in attack, and might well have scored more - in the first half, Dempsey took the ball off the head of a colleague who would almost certainly have scored; and twice in the last 10 minutes, USA got clear but got a bad offside call. While Spain had many shots, they were never as close to scoring as USA were on those three occasions.
I'm a long-suffering Newcastle supporter - our defence should watch this game time and again to understand defensive organisation.
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Oh dear...the great record-breaking Spain have just been humbled by the mighty U.S.A !!!!
So no Spain v Brazil final, and no chance to see this Spain side get taken apart by the Samba Boys.
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Congratulations to the US football team for doing the unthinkable. Their victory against mighty Spain in the semis of the Confed Cup has been remarkable. Will the US football team face Bafana Bafana or the Samba Boys in the finals ?
I enjoyed reading this well written and insightful piece on the counter attacking style of this Dunga coached Brazilian side. Looking at corner kicks as an opportunities for launching counter attacks - that's certainly positive play. Brazil has the luxury for planning such shock moves. Great stuff Tim. Thanks !
Dr. Cajetan Coelho
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97 - There we come to a tactical difference between both of them, Hargreaves was the england amazing player in WC 2006, don't get me wrong, is just that I think that Silva's more useful overall. Also I didn't see much of Hargreaves, thanks to his injuries, but I've seen a lot of Silva and I completely disagree with whoever says that he shouldn't feature on the national side.
If Juan is better or as good as Ferdinand, I honestly don't know. From what I've seen they are very close, but certainly Man Utd is much better than Roma. A player is likely to be praised in a club that works.
Also I'm impressed with USA's victory. I didn't even think of this possibility(nobody did), but they did reach the final. I fear for tomorrow's game.
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Galoucura, you last post is well reasoned & I would tend to agree. Personally I think some of your posts are a bit off the mark but not in this instance.
I'm not sure comparing the England 11 which played Andorra with the current Brazil 11 was necessarily fair. That England 11 wasn't a first choice team by any means, it would have been better to look at the 3 or 4 previous games for a better comparison but as the USA emphasised against Spain no result is a given. However likely or unlikely England could beat Brazil by 4 or Brazil could win by 6.
Gilberto Silva is not the player that he was but I don't know who else you play there. However I was quite impressed with Gilberto in the group game against the USA, to be truthful I was not expecting much after the midfield performance against Egypt but I was shown to be wrong.
Now Lucio! There's a defender I really like. Never convinced that he's appreciated for how good he really is in the UK, but I'm a fan.
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102 - I couldn't find(I didn't look to be honest) another game of England to see the XI, I think most of the important players played that game.
Losing or winning, Spain will still be considered superior to USA. After all 1 game does not tell much of a team, form does, and despite their loss their form is excellent.
About Silva not being the player that he was, I partly agree. He's old but was he pacey when younger? In a national side I don't need the players to be younger, after all, it's likely to be 1 or 2 games and see ya! I don't think he would still be useful for Arsenal nowadays, but what a signing he was for Panathinaikos!
About Lucio, I guess he is one of the three brazilians(Kaka and Maicon being the other two) that I would get in a world XI, that shows how high I rate him.
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A suggested england starting XI
GK-james/green
lb-a cole
cb- rio
cb-terry
rb-johnson
dm-hargreaves
cm-carrick
lm-gerrad/ as used by cappello (doubts on downing)
cam-lamps
rm- walcott
st- rooney
These are all INDIVIDUALS they DONT have team CHEMISTRY. They only play good against smaller teams
when they face face the top 10 in the world they seem like novices
when last have they beaten a top ten team convincingly
Brazils midfield might not be as expensive as england but is far more effective.
NOw to the spain matter. they are a good team but they have a difficulty breaking down a tall, strong cohesive defensive unit examples the iraq and the usa match. Brazils midfield would not give xavi any time to pass the ball there full backs are as quick or even quicker than the spanish wingers and finally torres and villa would have diffcult time against the strength ,height , quickness of lucio and juan. now let us talk about the counter attack puyol and pique cannot handle the pace the skill and cleverness of a 4 man counter attack name rob, kaka, ramires and fab. the only way i see spain out playing brazil would have to be through iniesta and xavi with wingers and a striker, because iniesta would provide more creativity from the middle and can play high to support the lone striker.
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What was my comment in #23...
i said before USA trashed Spain & after, any team can Rock up and beat THE NUMBER 1 team in the world
HOPEFULLY BAFANA BAFANA WILL DO SO TONIGHT AGAINST BRAZIL
im South African
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I daresay that the Semi Finals will spring a surprise. Any recent World Cups outside Europe / South America seem to see unexpected teams in the latter stages. In 1990 we had the traditional semi finalists, in the USA, we had the unusual step of seeing both Sweden and Bulgaria there (and then vanish in the years afterwards). Again in 1998, it was the usual suspects, then in 2002 we had South Korea and Turkey.
I go for Brazil to win it as well.
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One of the reasons that England struggle in major tournaments, in my opinion, is the fact that you cannot play a Premier League style game, which includes being allowed to tackle. Watching the USA game last night and the Red card for Bradley would at most have been a yellow in the PL, if even a card, but in tournament football one miss times tackle can cost you, so England tend to not press in the same way Premier League teams do. The best way for England to play would be a high tempo, pressing game, it would work to our strengths, but we would run the risk of having red cards every game... But when we play the top teams in Europe it is how Liverpool, Chelsea, Man Utd get more than their fair share of results. It might not be the best fiitball but USA showed last night that even the best teams need time on the ball, deny them that and anyone can struggle.
Interesting point last night that this will be the first winter world cup since 78 and they anticipate higher tempo games due to lower temperatures.
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I didn't get a chance to see the USA-Spain game but from what I gather they produced a performance that was well worthy of humbling Spain.
It is around about now that we can start naming our favourites for next years competition. I was drawn to a newspaper article that highlighted the fact that Barcelona's 3 pronged attack of Messi, Henry and Eto'o are all in danger of not taking part in next years finals. So is Cristiano Ronaldo, as Portugal are having a somewhat lacklustre qualifiying campaign.
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As a Man Utd fan I have read article after aticle linking us with many Brazilian youngsters. Douglas Costa, Nilmar, Neymar and Dentinho. I have had a look at all of these players on YouTube and they all seem impressive but these are merely highlights of there relatively short careers. Can you enlighten us further on each of these players and which, if any, do you think will fit in at Manchester United or any other top end European club? To me, Douglas Costa looks like a raw talent who will take a couple of years to hit the heights. Nilmar failed at Lyon and the other 2, especially Neymar, to me look as though they could cut it but, as I say I have only seen highlights. Do you see any of these players putting in a full 90 minutes of top class football consistently for a whole season?
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I think last night's result will do the Spanish a world of good. They will realise that their fluid passing game, whilst a joy to all when executed properly, may come unstuck against admittedly lesser teams (with all due respect to the Colonials) who can exhibit the level of atheticism and defensive organisation that the USA did last night. Capello will no doubt take note.
You obviously learn more in defeat, and it is never a bad thing to have to retreat to the drawing board once in a while.
#Post 108 - there are 2 options for England; learn to play better football, or do what the yanks did and 'park the bus'. Using last-night's game as a defensive blueprint may be a touch precarious, however, as we all know how infrequently lightning tends to strike. Whilst a 'hi-tempo pressing game' might work in European Club games, the likes of Chelsea and Man Utd simply have better players, and also have the benefit of 2-legs (but really, it's a poor indictment of the English game when these teams, Chelsea especially, still 'park it' against the likes of Barcelona).
#105. Sorry to be pedantic, but whilst I agree that England suffer against the better teams, they DID maul Croatia, who I believe are currently ranked 8th or 9th in the world.
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didnt croatia beat them i remember the score at wembley in wcc match recently??
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ref to post 111
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#111 to suggest the USA "parked the bus" is a bit harsh, especially if you watched the game. What they did was get stuck in to Spain early on, put pressure on the Spanish goal and not allow Spain time and space in midfield to get their passing game going, it took Spain 65 - 70 minutes to get a grip of the game, when USA were tireing. My point is that for players who play premier league football week in week out, and who play an English pressing game in Europe to then suddenly change their style of play in to a keep ball, pass and move, interchanging positions type game cannot be easy, or to date successful, surely they are better to build a team around what we are better at?
Look at Man Utd as an example, when they play in Europe they use Ronaldo as a central striker as his work rate out wide is not enough, they use Fletcher and Park in midfield, the whole set up changes to focus even more on work rate and closing down the opposition than in the league.
With Gerrard, Rooney, Barry in the team we should be pressing teams, we should be looking to deny them space and time on the ball and we should be playing a higher tempo. South Africa is the perfect time to do it as it will not be as hot as previous competitions.
If you don't have the most gifted players in the world you need to make up for it in other areas. We are not the most gifted side but can beat any team in the world on our day, I just think our day will come more often if players are doing what they do week in week out. I'm sure even Brazil and Spain would struggle against an England team that really went at them with aggression, hunger and passion, but as I said earlier, I'd be worried about keeping 11 players on the pitch with tournament referees...
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it seems like englands off days are comes very often the matches they play in wcq easily matches and as usual englands supporters talking there team up how many players who have gone to the last 2 world cups are in this currrent side anyone care to anwser?
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2006 wc english team
David James - Manchester City
Paul Robinson - Tottenham
Scott Carson - Aston Villa
Chris Kirkland - Wigan
Defenders
Gary Neville - Manchester United
Sol Campbell - Portsmouth
Philip Neville - Everton
Ashley Cole - Chelsea
Rio Ferdinand - Manchester United
Jamie Carragher - Liverpool
Wayne Bridge - Chelsea
John Terry - Chelsea
Ledley King - Tottenham
Luke Young - Middlesbrough
Paul Konchesky - Fulham
Stephen Warnock - Blackburn Rovers
Matthew Upson - West Ham United
Anthony Gardner - Everton
Midfielders
David Beckham - LA Galaxy
Steven Gerrard - Liverpool
Frank Lampard - Chelsea
Joe Cole - Chelsea
Alan Smith - Newcastle United
Jermaine Jenas - Tottenham
Shaun Wright-Phillips - Chelsea
Michael Carrick - Tottenham Hotspur
Kieron Richardson - Sunderland
Stewart Downing - Middlesbrough
Scott Parker - West Ham United
Owen Hargreaves - Manchester United
Strikers
Michael Owen - Newcastle United
Wayne Rooney - Manchester United
Jermain Defoe - Portsmouth
Peter Crouch - Liverpool
Darren Bent - Tottenham Hotspur
Darius Vassell - Manchester City
how much diffent is it from today and they are still no closer to the trophy
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brazilianjamaican - to suggest they are still no closer to the trophy a year before the tournament is bit of a rash statement. Also, Brazil's WCQ games are just as 'easy' as you make England's out to be, and the South American league table based qualifying system is geared towards making sure both super powers qualify - although impossible due to the amount of games that would have to be played, it would be interesting to see a European table based qualifying system. And yes, England lost to Croatia at Wembley in October 2007, in the final Euro 2008 qualifier. We have a completely different set up now with a more than competent manager.
This talk that England struggle against the top teams is way off the mark, it is actually the complete opposite if anything - we fail to deliver performances against inferior opposition, but almost always raise our game against the better sides.
Believe me, Brazil are no where near as superior to England as you are making out.
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# 112 - The game you may be thinking of is when Croatia denied England the chance to quliafy for the Euro's by beating them at Wembley. That's why the 4-1 return surprised a few folk, myself included. Croatia were superb that night, winning 3-2.
@ harmannick - Hands-up; I could have worded what I said a bit better. I was referring to the USA getting 'stuck in' when I mentioned athleticism. I dont think last-night's result has any long-lasting significance.
However, what you are basically saying is that England need to revert back to the old ethos of 'getting stuck in'? This does no good either. Is there a reason why England cannot compete with other teams technically and play football? They HAVE already tried the 'blood & thunder' routine, and it did no good then. The days of 'Psycho' Pearce and Terry Butcher with his sweatband covered in Cranberry sauce are over. The English game needs to EVOLVE, not regress.
What you are saying also merely confirms my belief that the P'ship, for all the glitzy veneer courtesy of Sky's neverending pockets, lacks a proficient level of technical football, perhaps even amongst the top 4. Not to raise an argument for another time, but it's laughable when we see teams like Chelsea happily conceding posession to other teams in favour of a 'brave defensive display (for this, read: '9 men in their own half tracking the runners etc'). Then having the absolute audacity to claim they should have been in the Champion's League Final etc...
England have long claimed to have players amongst the world's best... so why not play like it? Or is the reality check actually here, with the realisation that a 1/2 fit Iniesta can still run the show against the likes of Carrick, Rooney, Ferdinand & Co??
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Davidman - I disagree with your opinion on Brazil'a WCQ's; we already discussed how Argentina are struggling to qualify, plus you have teams like Bolivia and Ecuador who are almost impossible to beat at home because you need to climb up a mountain to play them, and would need a Spacesuit to be able to breath. It might be putting the 'pathetic' into hypothetical (ahem), but I reckon England would struggle in a qualifying group like South America...
Plus... Croatia apart, when did England last beat a class team? Germany maybe, back when Owen still had a hamstring?
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South-American qualifiers is by no means easier then European. The groups are made with at most only 2 big teams, and usually 1 is WAY BIGGER than the rest. If you had Andorra, San Marino and Iceland in a group, Italy, Germany and France in the other group, how harder would it be to Germany to qualify?
The difference is that in South-America we have only (nowadays) two big teams, therefore it's easier for a European team to underperform, as there is tons of big teams.
119 - England 5x1 Germany! What a game! Nobody will ever forget it! When did it happen? 2001? 2000? 1946?
Also Croatia is not a class team, they may be 8th in the FIFA-ranking, but does it tell anything? By 2006 USA was 4th and how well did they do in the World Cup? The true bigs of Europe are Spain, France, Holland, Germany, Italy, England, Russia.
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let me ask a serious question with the best league in the world the best defense the best midfield and forward line(so they say i disagree)why the hell cant they win anything? anyone care to answer? especially davidman and you english supporters
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Galoucura is a typical European football fan extraordinarily ignorant.Here yet again as always in the history of futbol The Europeans have failed abysmally outside their own continent.If England or Italy had to go to La Paz the Bolivians would probably score 10 Vamos EEUU and poor Euros enjoy an All American final
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I HAVE JUST WATCHED THE BRAZILIAN TEAM PLAY SOUTH AFRICA, ITS DAY I WISH TO FORGET. WHY DID DUNGA PLAY RAMIRES AND FABIANO. THERE ARE TWO OVER RATED PLAYERS. TO BE QUITE HONEST I DONT SEE BRAZIL WINNING THE WORLD CUP BY ANY MEANS. WITHOUT RONADHINO I DONT SEE ANOTHER CREATIVE PLAYER APAERT FROM KAKA, ROBINHO IS NOT MEATY ENOUGH. AND THATS IT. RAMIRES ISNOT UP TO THE CLASS OF SO CALLED BRAZILIAN STANDARD. RONALDO IS FAT BUT STILL MY FAVOURITE PLAYER OF ALL TIMES. I FEEL SORRY DUNGA DIDNT SEE THE NEED TO REMOVE RAMIRES AND PUT HIM OTHER FASTER AND MORE CREATIVE PLAYER OR REMOVE FABIANO AND INTRODUCE ANDRE PATO
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"let me ask a serious question with the best league in the world the best defense the best midfield and forward line(so they say i disagree)why the hell cant they win anything? anyone care to answer? especially davidman and you english supporters"
brazilianjamaican - if you read back all of my comments, nowhere have I said England have the best defense, midfield and forward line, nowhere have I so much as insinuated this, or anyone else for that matter. All i have said all the way through this debate is that Brazil are over rated and pointed out that they are not as invincible and as superior to England and the rest of the world as you and others make out. Maybe in the past, but not right at this moment in time. Tonight's performance pretty much proved me right.
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I agree with post 123 ramires should have been with at least 60 min in the game he lack pace vision basic control and strength he should have been replaced by alves to add strength pace and the ability to cover when under the counter, or even batista to add strength up front and pato to replace fab to add pace adifferent style and unbelievable strength. my fear is that dunga does not know how to change a game tactically or when to use subs
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I suspect the reason Dunga persists with Ramires over Elano is because of his lightning pace which betterties into the coach's counter-attacking school of thought.
However, it seems that Ramires lacks an end product most of the time. I would like to see a more technical player in his position.
118 - Superb post and very true. England must evolve in footballing terms. The physical blood and thunder style has been failing for England for over 40 years.
Why can't fellow English people realise this? Wake up.
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Why Ramires is being criticized now while he was one of the great players in the victory against USA? He had a bad game now, but is he a bad player? He's fantastic for Cruzeiro and he's only 21! The kid will be better, do not crucify him needlessly.
First time I saw Dunga use a player outside his natural position(Alves being used as left-back) and although short-lived, I bet this could work..
122 - Ok. You keep living on your world, I'll live on mine.
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I like ramires he seems to be a good player, but when a player is having a bad game, he should be changed as simple as that.
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#126 English players, in the England team need to play the way they do for their clubs, it's what gets them in to the England team. Either English clubs need to change the way they play in the Premier League and Europe, which in recent years has been fairly successful, or the England team need to work to a system that gets the best out of those players. It is all well and goo saying that English players need to play a different style but when they play 50+ games for their club in one way and 6 games for their country another way, how can you ever hope to get the best out of them.
England have a number of players now who have a great deal of ability in the like of Gerrard, Rooney, Lampard, but what is Englands best chance of beating Brazil at a world cup, it is by unsetteling them, by playing at a higher tempo, by not letting them have time on the ball. Not blood and thunder but controlled aggression.
Oh and Brazil were rubbish last night, was looking forward to it, what a disappointmen. Whoever started the South American qualifying is harder debate, my understanding was the whole point of everyone plays each other was that it basically quarantees that with 4 teams going through Brazil and Argentina can never fail, please correct me if I am wrong...
As for rubbishing Fabiano, 20 goals in 29 matches, not too shabby...
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Watched Brazil vs South Africa yesterday. Brazil are one of the luckiest teams going! South africa pressed and battled and the brazilians had no way through. When the come up against a team at the world cup which is direct, presses, and attacks them (which theoretically and hopefully could be england) they will get destroyed.
It was the first time ive seen Ramires play, and the overall impression I got was how dirty he was! At one point he pushed a player in the back then elbowed him in the neck! Not sure if he got booked either.
If Brazil are happy with beating a team with no strikers by a set piece, then they are not going to enjoy next years world cup
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Only if last nights performance was a one-off!
SA put up a great fight and but for a set-piece on the edge of the box, they really didn't look world beaters.
We'll see how they manage against USA.
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Probably a bit of inexperience cost SA that goal, the defender was crowding a forward who had his back to goal, and didn't need to make a tackle. Reminded me of Lucas Neill in 2006, with 8 seconds to go, Neil made a rash challenge which led to a dive and a totally undeserved penalty which cost Australia the game. At that stage, Italy were a man down and Australia were much fitter and fresher and on top, creating better openings, they seemed almost certain to win in extra time. Through Neill's rash challenge, Italy were able to go on and lift the Cup. SA would probably have gone to extra time without that tackle. The positioning of wall and keeper seemed a bit suspect, something for SA to work on. But a perfect free-kick.
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Nice article Tim, but can't agree with the sentiment. I think this Brazil side is a shadow of the team that went to the last World Cup and even less compared to the wonderful side that won in 2002.
Kaka and Robinho remain the only truly world class attacking talents. Fabiano would have been nowhere near the previous squads I have mentioned, neither would Elano. It's also too early for Pato right now.
There is also a gaping chasm at left back - no player in the Maicon or Alves class there. Centre halves are ok but nothing more. If Lucio gets injured they are struggling next year.
But the clincher for me is centre midfield. Every modern World Cup winning Brazil side has had a top class 'holding' midfielder - Dunga 94, Emerson 2002. This position is integral to their success with the system they play - full backs charging on etc. I see not one player who can play this role for them next year to the level required, and for that reason and all the others mentioned I see quarter finals at best.
The winners will come from Europe this time as Argentina are also struggling under Maradona. Spain are obvious favourites, but Germany, Holland and England will all fare well.
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Folks
Different issue, but what is the current situation with Diego (Ribas da Cunha) - I've lost track of him since his move to the Old Lady.
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Finally, some people who echo my sentiments and see through the hype, and not the usual 'Brazil are the invincible masters of everything' drivel that has been written on this thread.
I would never write them off for next years World Cup, but the way some people on here are making out they are so superior to the rest of the world is just plain deluded.
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The dutch teams is not better than the current brazilian side neither is germany not to mention havent won anything in such a longtime england. i get it we how brazil to another level in football but you guys dont beat up yours gums on france, gemany portugal(overated remember what this team did to them in brazil, and holland when theyhave a bad run or having to work hard for a victory)when a team like bafana bafana is motived and given the right tactics then whey cant we say that matched brazil tactical and almost won as oppose to brazil is pettiful. just like j santana made a diffence with is tactical play i fear that dunga does have that killer instinct tactically to change the game through an inspired sub or a tactics change. he seems not to be reading the games fast enough. is a reason why england germany holland finds it difficult to remove brazil from 1&2 because with all the big name players they have they DONT have the killer instinct like a brazilian team
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Brazil has always played better against stronger opposition during the tenure of Dunga, small sides can make it very difficult, just as South Africa did yesterday.
133 - Emerson did not play 2002, he got injured. We had a partnership of Gilberto Silva and Kleberson there.
I hope I can say that Felipe Melo is as good as Gilberto Silva was and Gilberto is still as good as Kleberson was.
135 - I can't recall someone saying that Brazil is clearly stronger than everybody else, I recall *everybody* claiming that England is not as strong as it. Just that.
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The current Brazil side doesn't exactly capture the imagination like previous sides though does it? Kaka apart, there is a lack of the old 'Samba Magic' about them I reckon. It's all about 'effectiveness' and 'tactical acumen' blah blah blah...
Bring back The Doctor. 40 a day, 6ft 4 with feet smaller than my wee fat mum, yet he still made boys look stupid.
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Tim, excellent blog as always. I really enjoy reading about the South american game and your insights are fascinating. One thing I have been wondering about with Brazil is the 'problem' Left-back position. In particular, I have questioned the fact that, incredibly, Inter Milan Left-back Maxwell has yet to make his Brazil debut - aged 27! I think Maxwell is a good player, pacy and defensively wary, and I understand he has been unlucky with the timing of injuries for Brazil selection. However, with other Left-backs coming through the ranks such as Andre Santos and possibly Felipe of Depotiva La Coruna, do you think Maxwells chances of breaking into the Brazil first XI have passed? I would be interested to hear you opinion on the matter, as well as the general opinion of the Brazilians themselves.
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138 - Even Kaka doesn't have that "magical feeling", I remember reading about the "magic quartet" which was Kaka, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo and Robinho and Kaka was considered the most "effective" but less talented of the four.
139 - I'm brazilian, I like Maxwell since the days of Cruzeiro(I can't remember him playing for the senior side but I'm a local and there was lot's of talks about a talented left-back in the ranks) and I can't understand why he isn't given a chance. A friend of mine recalls him being called once in 2001, I honestly don't know. I simply dislike Andre Santos and I haven't seem much of Felipe to give my opinion, but I know he's not even considered by Dunga(he is practically unknown here)
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138- Agree entirely. Looking through the brazil side man-for-man they are far weaker than previous sides.
Kaka seemed shocked and surprised that he hasnt been afforded an hour of time on the ball, he looks genuinely startled when hes been tackled, which is quite often.
Robinho has great skill but is too inconsistent to be great. The only player I rate highly in Brazil's Confed cup squad is Maicon.
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127 good for you you will be happy in your tiny little continent
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141. At 10:52pm on 26 Jun 2009, EvilJenius25 wrote:
138- Agree entirely. Looking through the brazil side man-for-man they are far weaker than previous sides.
Kaka seemed shocked and surprised that he hasnt been afforded an hour of time on the ball, he looks genuinely startled when hes been tackled, which is quite often.
Robinho has great skill but is too inconsistent to be great. The only player I rate highly in Brazil's Confed cup squad is Maicon.
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What about Julio Cesar?
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142 - Its late and I'm a little tired but did you suggest that galoucura was european? I'm sure he's from Brazil very pro Brazil at that....
And galoucura, your right gilberto's time at arsenal is long gone - like his legs had at the end of his time in london, but a new chapter of football in greece has worked out well for everyone involved.
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142 - I am Brazilian. I live on Brazil and always had, I love my country - I feel it's ok to be patriotic, just that demonstrations of xenophobia like lasaetarubia did take no place in any kind of discussion - and I always will.
He did actually suggest that I'm europen and I don't care about it(it's not a offense), even my english shows that I'm brazilian.
And I still like Gilberto as a player, legs gone or not, he showed a TOP-CLASS performance against Argentina last year and is one of the unsung "heroes" of Brazil. I just don't think he can stand a long sequence of games, like Emerson(is he still at AC Milan?) can't. I don't watch greek football at all but for the national team he is doing alright.
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I meant 144, sorry, it's a little bit late and I'm a little bit drunk.
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Slightly off topic but if they keep blowing those horns at the World Cup it's going to be nightmarish.It's Tinnitus for the Masses and has interfered greatly with my enjoyment of this Tournament so much so that if a match isn't totally exhilarating i've switched off completely and if it is then i've turned the sound off.
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145 - I have no idea if emerson is still at milan... he was 12 months ago, I think! I used to think emerson was brilliant a few years ago. I'd be lying if I said I watched greek football but what i hear of gilberto progress over there he's doing well for himself.
Right thats me done, I'll be back for the new blog on monday, which I hope will follow a good brazilian performance.
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#140
Whatever you have been reading is obviously rather dated - of the 4 players you mentioned, Kaka' is the one who stands out, and I think most would agree. He has been one of the top 3 players in the world for the past 3yrs I reckon. Ronaldo McDonaldo is cutting about like Luther Vandross these days, Ronaldinho has lost that essential burst of pace... whilst gaining a bit of 'padding' also (if there is one place where he CAN regain his magic though, it's at Milanello). And whilst I think Robinho is a fantastic talent, he blows hot and cold... or mostly just lukewarm.
I hope the next World Cup belongs to Messi, quite personally.
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150 - He is the most outstanding player, I agree. Kaka is the best brazilian footballer in the world today by a mile, but is he a player of fantastic dribbles? Amazing technique? Not really.
He gets through not because of his talent but because his athleticism, will, etc.
It would be nice to see Messi triumph, I'll cheer for the argentinians like I always had(rare for a brazilian) in case Brazil fails to impress(like 2006)
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Dunga is more or less just Like the English MPS, he still doesnt get it. how would he let ramirers start a game with Fabiano. i know is scored some goal but that isnt enough. he needs to find new strikers and new right wing midfield. i love Brazil, but no thank you for this team, i would take away MELO,KAKA,LUCIO,ROBINHO the rest of the team, its done and dusted, and the first to fire would be Dunga himself. where are all the brazilians we saw play in the UEFA CUP?i would have them play and leave ramires and fabiano.its shame big shame
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Enjoying the Final. Wanted Brazil to win but enjoyed first half.
BTW, how hot does Gabby Logan look in the studio?? Made me miss my half-time cuppa!!
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ITS PLEASURE TO CONSTRADICT MY EARLIER COMMENT, BECAUSE DUNGA HAS JUST DONE JUSTICE TO BRAZILIAN TEAM, HE REMOVED RAMIRES AND INTRODUCED ELANO AND ALVES, WHICH TO ME, MADE SENSE AND MADE A COMEBACK.FOR NOW ATLEAST HE CAN GO BAC AND ANALYSIS THE DIFFERENCE THAT HIS SUBS HAS MADE, NEW PLAYERS MORE CREATIVE PLAYERS ARE NEED. I HOPE HE SEES THATS. ENGLAND AND FRANCE HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT FROM ITALY AND SPAIN BUT FROM THE SMALLER TEAMS
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