Coping with high altitude
Outside South America there is little recognition of the difficulties of the continent's World Cup qualification campaign.
Carlos Alberto Parreira and Luiz Felipe Scolari are agreed - the pair coached Brazil to World Cup triumph in 1994 and 2002 respectively, and came to the same conclusion.
Winning the competition was relatively straightforward. The hard part was qualification.
Both of their teams lost in Bolivia.
This week, it was Argentina's turn - they were thrashed 6-1 in La Paz.
The current qualification campaign has featured 31 home wins to 10 away - this ratio of 3:1 is normal in South America - and highlights the enormous difficulty of playing away from home.
There are long and arduous journeys to undertake, at the end of which the visiting team is surrounded by an intimidating atmosphere.
There are huge differences of climate and conditions - and, of course, there is the factor of altitude.
At some 2,800 metres above sea level, Quito, Ecuador's base, is difficult.
Wayward finishing, superb goalkeeping and some luck meant that Brazil came back from Quito with a 1-1 draw last Sunday. But on the balance of play Ecuador could easily have won by the same 6-1 margin by which Bolivia inflicted the first defeat on Diego Maradona's Argentina.
At 3,600 metres above sea level, La Paz is the venue that everyone dreads.
There is no telling exactly how the unacclimatised player will react - genetic factors seem to determine that some feel the effects more than others. But as a general rule, it is reckoned that without time to acclimatise players lose over 30% of their athletic capacity.
The lungs struggle and they can't find enough oxygen to move freely over the pitch.
Given three weeks anyone can acclimatise. But in the modern calendar no-one has this time.
It is thought that the third day is when the effects are felt most.
So what nearly everyone does - as Maradona's team did on Wednesday - is move up to altitude just a few hours before the game. In this way the effects of extreme altitude are minimised.
This might make medical sense. But to my mind it makes little psychological or technical sense.
In the minds of the players it builds the problem into the size of a monster, and it gives no time for them to make an adaptation to conditions, how to change their game in response to the lack of oxygen, and to the fact that the ball flies far quicker through the rarefied air.
Doing it this way is also a crime against the goalkeeper, who is more exposed than anyone else by the rapid trajectory of the ball.
It is almost impossible to do what Maradona's Argentina tried to do - roll up and just try to play their normal game.
This is especially true against a Bolivia side that have found some form. They are not going to qualify, and their main objective at this stage of the campaign is to do well in front of their own public, especially against Brazil and Argentina.
Even before the Argentina game kicked off the Bolivian strike duo of Joaquin Botero and Marcelo Martins (known as Moreno in Brazil, where he played for a while) were the top scorers of the entire campaign.
The pair, plus some other key players, didn't even travel to Colombia for Saturday's match. Bolivia sent out a side searching for a 0-0 draw (they lost 2-0) while keeping their gunpowder fresh for Argentina.
So the Bolivia game is a one -off, as I suggested in my blog at the start of the week.
I wrote then that the extreme conditions meant that we would learn nothing about Maradona's Argentina from this game. On reflection, I'm not sure that is entirely correct.
There are certain steps that teams visiting altitude need to take.
The idea is to run as little as possible, so the team must stay compact, giving the man on the ball plenty of options for a pass.
They must not defend too deep - it stretches out the team and makes it easy for the home side to shoot from range - very dangerous at altitude.
Against Ecuador, altitude exposed Brazil's deficiencies.
"Brazil had almost no possession," wrote 1970 great Tostao, "because, literally, there was no midfield. Gilberto Silva and Felipe Melo (the central midfield duo) played like centre backs."
So Brazil were unable to take the heat out of the game - while Argentina were over-run from the first because of their defensive weaknesses.
Martin Demichelis and Gabriel Heinze are too slow a pairing in the heart of defence. And, as slow centre backs usually do, they dropped deep to give themselves time - and opened up the field for the rampant Bolivians.
This is an area of the team that Maradona will need to look at - with Juan Forlin of Boca Juniors a promising defender who might well be worth a look.
Maradona said that he felt all the Bolivia goals like knife wounds in his heart.
They should heal, but an awareness is growing that a bigger axe could swing - the one that stops Argentina going to the World Cup.
They currently lie fourth, the last of the automatic qualifying slots.
Leaders Paraguay have a foot in South Africa.
Brazil and Chile, second and third respectively, have easier run ins than Argentina.
Lurking just two points behind in fifth, the play-off slot, are old rivals Uruguay - Argentina's final opponents in October's last round, which could be very interesting indeed.
A glorious history, a rich culture, a production line of exciting players... South American football is endlessly fascinating. I cover the continent from my base in Rio.
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~57~RS~)
Comments
Sign in or register to comment.
informed blog as usual. great read, and an extra one this week too!
Complain about this comment
How do the press react to a score line like that in Argentina? Imagine the headlines in England if we lost like that, even allowing for the altitude.
Complain about this comment
Great blog as always Tim. Love the up all night chat as well. Where else can we hear your ruminations on South American Football?
As for the altitude debate - how many of the Bolivian National team live and play at altitude all the time? It can't be many, surely the good ones play in Mexico or Brazil, so my point is that surely the acclimatisation issue is the same for all involved. Or are we saying there is some sort of genetic abnormality in Bolivians that make them supermen up high - unlikely I'm sure.
Complain about this comment
Another great read Tim.
Whilst altitude affects the South American game quite often, it is rarely considered a factor elsewhere. Can you think of anywhere except the South American continent where factors such as altitude can affect a teams playing style in such a way?
Also, it is not very often that European teams travel to Bolivia or Columbia to play. Is this because of the difficulty adjusting to the different climate or are there other reasons?
Complain about this comment
Good read Tim. Something that the European teams need to consider is the altitude for the 4 World Cup stadiums around the Joburg region. Joburg is not quite 3600 meters like La Paz but 1700 meters should not be sniffed at...... Ignore this at your peril and I can see some teams coming unstuck with this. Would highly encourage the FA to situate the England camp in this region and not at the coast as has been intimated. Sort it Fabio !
Complain about this comment
Great read - 1st time comment.
Has anyone done any comparisons with the games the Denver Bronco's play in the NFL - I seem to recall Denver is approx 5300 ft above sea level so the impact on visiting players must be similar to Quito & La Paz - unless the American football system of seperate squads negates some of this effect due to the relatively short time players are on the pitch at any one time (and the frequent TV breaks). Might be interesting to know the views of the visiting teams as well and how they train to cope with the change in altitude.
Complain about this comment
Good blog Tim, informative as ever.
Picking up on what post 3 is saying... Surely the Bolivian internationals don't arrive 3 weeks before the game in time to prepare? how do they acclimatise?
Complain about this comment
hey Tim,
what other alternatives does argentina have for Zanetti & papa?
Complain about this comment
#3 I'm not sure "genetic abnormality" would be the phrase but I *think* that those born and probably raised at higher altitudes do have a predisposition to producing more oxygen bearing red blood cells than those born and raised say at sea level. Certainly about ten years ago many of the major cycling teams used Colombians for the "mountain stages" simply because they coped much better even though they were now living and working in Europe.
Complain about this comment
Tim,
Did any players perform at all or did they all look off the pace? I don't know how Heinze gets a game at Real Madrid and Argentina, he had one great season at Man Utd then after his injury he's not look anywhere near his best.
http://www.worldfootballcolumns.com
Complain about this comment
Great article Tim...I have been looking forward to this but unfortunatley not too impressed with your opinion here. when Brazil came out with a draw at Quito, you faulted Gilberto Silva, Philip Melo and slated Ronaldinho that he has gone past his best, and you gave all praises to Maradona's Argentina team without considering the high altituide in Quito.. now they were trashed 6-1 by Bolivia in La Paz and you cannot fault anyone except the altituide...even Mascherano and Maradona conceeded that Bolivia were just a better team on the day, though altituide had a major effect but doesn't justify that goal margin....I am sure brazil would not be beaten in that margin when they visit La Paz.... let's be fair sometime without our judgement regardless of who is concerened
Complain about this comment
Tim,
Have Argentina or Brazil ever tried to reduce the altitude issue at away games through one off specialist selection policies? Pick a team physically suited to the altitude rather than basing it purely on quality.
Clearly quality on the pitch or on paper can be overturned by such an extreme altitude as La Paz's, and the majority Argentina and Brazil's star players play at sea level in Spain, Italy, England or on the South American coast.
Perhaps national teams when playing in La Paz should pick players who are taller, more athletically built or even players born/raised at altitude. A player who is taller or larger will have a bigger lung capacity than Messi or Tevez, Robinho or Pato. This weekend's game has shown that an Argentinian team that is weak on paper but physically fitter and astronger can't do much worse than a team of superstars.
I've always been an advocate of protecting anomalies in the game such as Bolivia's altitude advantage, it's one of the many things that gives football it's variety and excitement. Perhaps if the big teams tried to play teams like Bolivia at their own game then they may have more success.
Complain about this comment
Awesome blog as usual Tim!
It's funny how Maradona backed Bolivia to stage the WC qualifiers in La Paz last year, but obviously he wasn't the gaffer of Argentina at that time!
Will he change his opinion?
Complain about this comment
Hi Tim,
Excellent blog as usual.
Discussed this result with a colleague. He just about stated this game was a ''gimme'', due to the high altitude and lack of climatisation by the Argentine team.
However, even an experienced team such as Diego's, should have been able to keep the scoreline to something not resembling a whitewash.
Look forward to Monday's edition.
All the best,
MOP13
www.manonplatform13.blogspot.com
Complain about this comment
An extra blog this week! Thanks Tim. You suggest Juan Forlin as an option at centre-back, unfortunately I don't know much about domestic Argentinian football, but I was wondering whether you thought Ezequiel Garay, (currently being loaned back to Racing Santander after being bought by Real Madrid last summer) would be ready to step up? I haven't seen a lot of him this season (as I don't live in the UK at the moment and don't get regular access to La Liga but from what I've seen previously I've been impressed!
Complain about this comment
I seem to remember being told when I visited La Paz that if you normally live at high altitude that you often suffer from a reverse altitude sickness. So you suffer from headaches, breathlessness and nausea when you come down to sea level. If that's the case then things even out a bit don't they?
Complain about this comment
4 - bertrandbossingit: You make an excellent point re joburg. Travelling rugby teams often struggle with the altitude in both Jo'burg and Pretoria. As evidenced here the threat shouldn't be taken to lightly! Whilst it may be far more enjoyable sunning oneself on the beaches of Cape Town in your spare time, basing any team there could mean trouble.
Interesting to see the effect on the type of football played in the final as both SF are played at sea level.
Complain about this comment
Too much pace and not enough control - the curse of modern football. Skill has been subsumed to fitness and speed.
I said on here, after the Venezuela win, that Argentina did not impress. They lacked the calm incisive possession which Riquelme gave them.
And sure enough, they needed that "foot on the ball" in Bolivia.
They'll need it in South Africa too.
Should they get there.
Complain about this comment
Tim why do Guyana, Suriname and French Guiana not participate in the International football?
Complain about this comment
or does anyone else out there know for that matter?
Complain about this comment
#19 'Tim why do Guyana, Suriname and French Guiana not participate in the International football?'
They do, they field a combined team and play in Europe as the French National Team.
Complain about this comment
Seriously though they do but they are part of CONACAF for some reason.
Complain about this comment
#19 Suriname and Guyana play in the Conacaf qualifications. Both failed to progress to the final group. Do not know about French Guiana.
Complain about this comment
i believe Surinam are a former dutch colony, so they dont play for France, French Guiana is a overseas department of french goverment hence not a country and can only for France. and the only player that has played for them recently is malouda whom like everyone else from there is born with a french passport.
Complain about this comment
Hi Tim great blog as ever. Your blogs have increased my interest in South American football no end. Previously I only knew of South American football from the players plying there trade in Europe or of course when there was a major tournament.
I would have to disagree with Carlos Alberto Parreira and Luiz Felipe Scolari and say it's not particulary hard to qualify from South Americas group if your Brazil or Argentina. For either not to qualify from the group would be a massive shock. It would take another 3 countries from that region to have an amazing campaign which I can't see happening over a run of what about 18 games? 1 or 2 maybe such as Columbia in the early nineties, Paraguay this year which enables them to qualify with Brazil and Argentina. Even if Brazil or Argentina finish 5th (which would be a huge shock) they have a playoff against 4th placed from the North, central America and Caribbean group. As the group consists of USA, Mexico, Costa Rica, Honduras, El Salvador, and Trinidad and Tobago it would be unthinkable.
Qualification from European groups dosen't have the same altitude problem but as theres only one automatic qualifier in groups which have generally 3 European "powerhouses" i.e. group 1 Denmark, Portugul Sweden,group 5 Spain, Bosnia & Herz, Turkey, Belgium to name a few. Added to that it's over less games ( harder to keep a run going for a supposed lesser nation ) plus the inevitable away game to a Bulgaria, Croatia , Slovakia it becomes much harder IMO.
Keep the blogs coming Tim !!!!
Complain about this comment
It's true about the altitude but come on 6-1 is a hammering and is unheard of against a team of high quality like Argentina.
I live in Argentina and I have to say lots of the Argentines say the altitude is an excuse, Ok it has it affects, but many people here doubt maradonas managing skills.
He has been a manager here for Mandiyu and Racing and destroyed both teams. On another note ask any brazilian and 9 out of 10 will say the same thier teams problem is DUNGA! So though altitude was not a help to both teams, I believe also the manager had something to do with the result as well.
Just for the record the last time Bolivia won 6-1 en La Paz was in 1996 against the mighty Venezuela!!
Complain about this comment
It was asked above but i'd also like to know how many of the Bolivian team play their club football at a similar altitude.
As for the world cup being played at altitude in South Africa, it could become a case of those teams teams that acclimatise quickest progressing further, as most teams that reach the finals will be inexperienced at playing within those conditions.
I don't see much value in the debate that has previously been made regarding unfair advantage for home teams playing at altitude. It is simply part of the natural conditions of that nation and there is very little wrong in using that to their advantage.
Complain about this comment
you say that qualification is difficult, but 50% of the teams qualify!
also, aside from brasil and argentina, where is the quality? how many other south american sides have made the quarter finals of the world cup since 1986?
Complain about this comment
Living in La Paz Ive seen Bolivia play several times and this is the best theyve played for years. Most Bolivians were as surprised by the result as everyone else; the match was a full house more to see Maradona, Messi etc than expectation that Bolivia might do something special! Part of the reason for the extra motivation may have been the offer by a Santa Cruz businessman of $1,000 per goal per player; despite the shock his accountant must have been in he still happily paid up on Bolivian TV yesterday!
Many Bolivians are now asking why more of the first team werent taken to Colombia for the game the previous Saturday. Colombia were poor in their 2-0 win and if a stronger Bolivian team had gone they might have got something out of the match and still have an outside chance of the play off spot. There's also a fair bit of sympathy for Diego, his open support for the campaign for FIFA to revoke the ban on playing at altitude last year hasnt been forgotton by Bolivians.
Re altitude many highland Bolivians (esp those of indigenous stock) have proportionately larger hearts and lungs than many people (I read somewhere around 10%) and also more oxygen carrying red blood cells. Those playing abroad need less time to acclimatise as a result. Going down to sea level doesnt have much affect altitude wise, but the heat and humidity at many sea level venues in S America definately does and helps level the playing field, so to speak!
Will be intersting to see what happens with Argentina in the next round of qualifiers in June. Their defence needs plenty of work and not just in the centre, Bolivia ran them ragged down the flanks as well. If Diego gets that sorted and the next couple of results are good this match will be probably forgotton in Argentina as a one off; more poor performances and things could get interesting...... Any reason Tim why Cambiasso isnt in the team at the moment?
Great blog as always, keep them coming Tim! As an ex pat in S America its always enjoyable to read something of quality about the region in English for a change!
All the best!
James
Complain about this comment
Tim, you concentrated considerably on the altitude, almost blaming this for Argentina's defeat (other reports also blame the 'uneven' pitch, although both sides used the same surface!) while you only touched briefly on the main cause of the problem - a very unsure, slow, shaky defence with a truly terrible goalkeeper who was responsible for 3, if not 4 of the goals. Heinze was also dreadful, as he was at Old Trafford where every second tackle was a foul. I do get a little annoyed with these excuses when Argentina lose. I watched the game and the Bolivians obviously decided to attack, attack, and attack. Even at 1-1 they did not settle for a point but when in search of more goals. If more teams adopted this positive attitude they too would tear the Argentine defence to pieces because it is really second rate.
Maradona? I wrote when he was appointed that it would be a disaster for Argentine football. It's not reached that stage yet, but the signs are there.
Complain about this comment
Tim,
Do you still not think these games at altitude make a total joke of the south american qualifiers?!
Complain about this comment
#27 Most of them are used to it or have played at altitude at some point, all Bolivia's main cities except Santa Cruz and most of their best league teams play at over 2,500m (Potosi is even higher than La Paz at 4000m!). For matches in hot conditions they usually select a few more players from Santa Cruz which is in the tropical lowlands. The strike duo plays abroad, Martins with Shaktar Donetsk in the Ukraine and Botero I think in Mexico (where there is also some altitude issues though not as extreme as Bolivia)
Complain about this comment
Good blog. So, people complain about having to go to La Paz and play but nobody mentions the reverse situation. As a person that was born in La Paz and moved to USA I can attest to the effect of exercising in an oxygen rich environment. When I started exercising I hyperventilated because my body was not used to so much oxygen.
Complain about this comment
On the topic of Surinam it's a bit complicated.
Their FA have a rule which says those who play in Holland can't play for the national team.
Famous footballers of Surinam decent include Seedorf, Davids, Rijkaard.. possibly Gullit and Kluivert but would have to check.
Complain about this comment
Not sure if i agree that qualifying for the world cup is harder than actually winning it, if that was the case then why do Brazil and Argentina ALWAYS qualify, even when they have poor runs and poor results, they still end up qualifying for the world cup.
Complain about this comment
I can't speak for the Bolivians, but on the Ecuadorian side alot of the players ply their trade outside of Ecuador but there are still several who are based with the Quito/local teams, which i think gives the Ecs an advantage over visitors.
I am all for the games being played at the local countries ground of choice to give them an advatage if needed. It used to be said in Ecuador in the early 90's that the likes of Brasil & Argentina used to slip somebody at the Ecuadorian federation a "brown envelope" (could of course just be the local rumour mill trying to explain constant failure) to play the games in Guayaquil at sea level as opposed to up in Quito. There is no doubt that since the Ecs got serious and started playing in Quito regularly, results have improved and if that's down to the altitude then long may it last.
There has also been a swing in the power base of Ecuadorian football in the last 10 years or so. LDU of Quito are presently Libertadores Champions. The Ecuadorian league usually only has 2 coastal teams(this year more), with all the rest being based in Quito or the Andes region. When the 2 main coastal teams Barcelona and Emelec of Guayaquil had plenty of money, they were usually in the running(they occasionally used to keep several players based in Quito, in effect having a home team and an away team). Nowadays with money tight, or maybe better to say, more evenly spread around it is the altitude based teams that are controlling the league. The coastal guys have to play the majority of their away games at altitude and then return to the coast for home games; consequently never really acclimatising properly which i think is the reason for their relatively poor results.
Complain about this comment
It must be massively frustrating for the Bolivians to know that no matter who they beat at home and by whatever scoreline, people are always going to say they only won thanks to the altitude.
Complain about this comment
Hi Tim: Could you offer some extended thoughts on South American qualifying. For example;
(a) Brazil have qualified for every World Cup and, arguably, only have to be better than Ecuador and Colombia (currently 39th and 47th respectively in the FIFA rankings) to qualify. I’d accept that this could be viewed as being more difficult than qualifying through Europe (for Brazile at least), but I cannot accept that qualifying is harder than winning the World Cup.
(b) Perhaps Brazil actually has an enviable advantage during qualifying. Brazil will play 12 competitive games against top-50 teams before South Africa in 2010. Germany will play just two (Russia home and away), even though Europe boasts 8-out-of-10 and 15-out-20 of the best teams (on the other end of the scale, England have to be better than two top 15 sides to qualify). The average team ranking of Germany’s qualifying group is 84—(Brazil’s is 40).
Complain about this comment
Perhaps this has already been asked, but is La Paz the lowest venue in Bolivia? Given the effect that the altitude has on incoming teams, I'm surprised if Bolivia (and indeed Ecuador) are allowed to pick their national stadium as one that gives them the biggest advantage, or at least a bigger advantage than some of the other stadiums in the country.
Complain about this comment
#39: FIFA put a limit on altitude but then backtracked and reversed the decision.
I've been to Quito and La Paz and I noticed a marked difference between the two - even walking up a slight slope in La Paz left me gulping for air (which was really contaminated), whereas Quito wasn't quite so bad.
As was mentioned, players who are used to altitude find it difficult playing at sea level - the air is too dense and humid for them - however, I doubt whether it's as great a disadvantage as feeling like only one lung is working.
Complain about this comment
Living in South America I get to watch pretty much all the games of the South American qualification. Although I disagree that it is the toughest region to qualify from (I believe that belongs to Africa) it is by far the most entertaining. The difference between the strongest teams such as Argentina and the weakest Peru/Bolivia is not that much any more compared with Europe (Spain, Italy etc to San Marino et al). The majority of matches are entertaining and to a good standard where climate and altitude all play a factor. The likes of Argentina and Ecuador are great to watch and at the beginning of the campaign it would be difficult to predict the top fives teams for qualification. I remember blog comments a few weeks ago saying how it was a shame that top European club teams do not come to South America to play (altough I did see Real Madrid play Santa Fe here in Bogota which was anything but a friendly) but I will go on to say that it is maybe just as disappointing to see that no big European nations come to South America anymore. Maybe they just don't want to test themselves but I guess it is more about the money involved and a tight football calender. I don't always think that Argentina can blame the altitude. I saw them play a mesmorising first half here in Bogota against a useful (but frustating) Colombian team and really only having Tevez to blame for losing. Well done to Bolivia though - great game!
Complain about this comment
I can't see how altitude can even remotely be used as an issue in Argentina's diabolical performance. Haven't Argentina been playing qualifiers in Bolivia for over half a century?! Enough time to know it's a little tricky perhaps...
Surely the key would be to send a second XI to Bolivia 10 days before the game, as they could have done in this instance. If Argentina genuinely cannot compete with Bolivia using an U-21 team or a second or third XI, then that's a sad indictment of Argentina's strength in depth.
As for the game, well I watched and it seemed to me that Argentina were lucky not to be 3-0 down after 10 minutes, when fatigue couldn't have been a factor. Tactics (or lack of), a dodgy goalkeeper, and the sad decline of Zanetti were more evident than altitude.
Poor old Bolivia, their finest footballing hour ignored and turned into a debate about altitude.
Complain about this comment
It's interesting how the players anatomy differ to altitude issues.
Is it possible for all teams to take a minimum of 4 days to acclimatise themselves?
I wouldn't risk it for medical rerasons.
Well Tim, it's always good to read your coloumns and I do so every week.
I particularly look for news based on Brazil and young Brazilian players.....so keep us posted.
Complain about this comment
#37 It it, though a lot of Bolivia's performances away from home don't exactly help dispel that preception!
To put Argentina's "performance" into perspective and show it IS possible to get results in La Paz - in qualifying matches here last year Chile (the team after Brasil and Argentina most Bolivians want to beat for historical reasons) played an excellent disciplined counter attacking game and won 2-0; Uruguay managed a great 2nd half, coming back from 2-0 down at half time to draw 2-2 (partly helped by some generous Bolivian defending!)
#39 I think La Paz is currently the only national stadium that meets FIFA criteria, its even had new moulded plastic seats put in in the last few months! During the FIFA altitude debate #40 mentions Cochabamba (at 2700m, similar to Quito) was touted as a possible replacement, though nothing came of it.
Complain about this comment
The entire system of qualification is complex. S. America has a guaranteed 40% with a fair chance of 50% representation. (ie in a ten team group, five could well qualify) Europe has a tad under 25% (13 from 53) However Brazil are the only team to win the WC when it is played outside of their continent. But wait a minute...a single WC has been hosted in Asia and an Asian team reached the semi-finals, Africa as of yet have never had the luxury of being a host continent. So how do you decide the quotas?
Complain about this comment
Tim,
Thanks for this very educative and inspiring piece. I do believe the altitude story but the other aspects of such a hammering is the fact that Maradona like most "recent" former players turn coaches do not have the pedigree to read difficult matches. Argentina do not have any excuses, they were roundly beaten period!
For the other high altitude match between their firecest rivals, brasil and Ecuadors you will notice that even though the Ecuardorians did most of the playing(and they did play some real beautiful and purposeful football)Dunga (another "recent" former Player turn coach) managed to turn the game around in the 72nd minutes just to get the result we now have by taking out the ever "smiling" and entertaining Ronaldinho and bringing in a more experienced and a more discerning Julio Baptista. Moral of the story...Coaches should always have some jokers in their arsenal eithwer to survive or minimise a collosal loss.
Complain about this comment
Its scientific fact that altitude makes a massive difference. apparently Settlers in the 16th century went to these high s.american areas and literally struggled to even reproduce and have children for 2 to 3 generations. this highlights the magnitude of difference playing at this sort of height.
at the same time i believe that Bolivia and Ecuador should be allowed to keep their advantage. Just like its cold in winter in Iceland, and its boiling everytime England play in a world cup anywhere!
good on you Bolivia. as for Maradona ... it was pretty obvious whats going to happen to Argentina! its like having Gazza in charge of England!
Complain about this comment
Altitude had to have played a big part in Argentina losing.I have never in all my life seen Javier Masherano play so badly.And yes South America has the most tedious World Cup qualifying process.All ten teams playing each other home and away.Would be better with two groups of five teams each with top two in each qualifying along with the best third placed team.
Complain about this comment
Brazil seemed very lethargic, almost certainly due to the effects of altitude and a warm March afternoon on the equator. I've heard a lot about the 'genetic predisposition' argument and can certainly testify that playing football at altitude here (even amateur 5-a-side games) is exhausting, even after a settling in period.
Most of Ecuador's squad are originally from the low-lying coastal areas, though, rather than the highlands. In addition, only 4 of the matchday 18 that day currently play at altitude in Quito with their club sides. So, in my opinion, credit where credit is due. Ecuador looked lively and, on that form, at this alttitude, would be a match for any world side. Brazil seemed content to sit back and hit Ecuador on the break (which they eventually started to do in the second half, with Baptista's goal the icing on the cake). Had it not been for some wayward finishing, Ecuador would have been home and dry in the first hour and not needed Noboa's late equaliser. Another day it could have been a mauling.
Complain about this comment
47. "its like having Gazza in charge of England!"
This made me laugh! You can imagine incidents like Scotland's bevvy session on Sunday night would only be the start of the problems lol.
Complain about this comment
Tim, are you not of the view that Maradona's tactical shortcomings have been exposed, as well as his stupidity in publicly criticising Juan Roman Riquelme. I watched their game against Venezuela, and despite the significant goal margin, it seemed fairly obvious that their attacking play was dis-jointed and lacked fundamental fluidity. It took Messi's individual brilliance, a counter attack and catching Venezuela off guard to unlock the opposing defence. Maradona essentially played with five forwards: Jonas and Maxi looked to stream forward from the wings, while Messi, Aguero and Tevez were given a reference in the central piece of the final third. Against Bolivia, Lucho, Maxi, Messi and Tevez this time formed Argentina's attacking piece.
Maradona seems to be under the illusion that simply throwing a vast array of attacking talents into a starting eleven, while using Mascherano as an insurance policy, will constitute as enough to over come any opposition. The Venezuela game, as well as the Bolivia match up, highlighted that this is clearly an inadequate route to follow. The Argentinian attacks, famed for fluidity, short passing, patience and flair appeared flawed and lacking in any purpose, in both games - the midfield consisted of simply Mascherano and Gago, while four or five attacking players streamed forward. The missing component?
Riquelme. This Argentinian side is simply crying out for an instigator, a playmaker - a man who roams freely behind the attacking talents, providing a link between midfield and attack, thus allowing for the fluidity and productive nature of Argentina's passing game in the final third, to return. Neither Messi, Lucho, Maxi, Tevez, Jonas, Aguero or Lavezzi possess the ability to perform this role in the manner in which Riquelme is able to do so - they all possess an urge to stream forward, without ever providing a link, a route via which the ball can be channeled through to the world class attacking players Argentina possess.
I for one, sincerely hope that Riquelme has a change of heart, and makes peace with the Argentinian boss - for Argentina's sake. Either that, or Maradona beins to acknowledge that his current setup, against world class, defensively tuned opposition, will produce only failure.
Complain about this comment
I wonder if the time spent at altitude will benefit Mascherano and Tevez this weekend. I guess if they are both running around like supermen, in a blur, we'll know it has!
Complain about this comment
Lovers of eccentric football events might enjoy this video (not the greatest quality but its the only video link of it Ive managed to find so far):
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x29i37_foot-au-sommet-6000-m_news
A short clip from June 2007 of a match involving Bolivian president Evo Morales and played at 6000m on the flanks of Sajama volcano (Bolivia's highest peak) to protest the FIFA ban on football at altitude. Locals from nearby villages lugged the goalposts up the volcano, Evo scored the only goal of the game which was abandoned after 15 mins as the ball kept disappearing down the side of the volcano!
Complain about this comment
Enjoyed the match, Tim. Would you say that the 6-1 defeat proves that Heinze just isn't good enough for Argentina? Will Gabi Milito get in the side when he's fit?
Complain about this comment
CockneyCov asked about the altitiude in Denver and if the Denver Broncos of American Football. I think the multiple substitutions and stoppages help diminish the effects. However, The MLS's Colorado Rapids also play in Denver and there's another MLS team in Salt Lake City which has a similar altitude. Certainly, the level of skill and play in the MLS isn't the same a WC qualifying but much of the physical aspects are nearly equal. MLS players go from high altitude locations to hot, humid locations as there season is during the Summer.
Just another reason for Beckham to request a permanent transfer back to Europe.
Complain about this comment
This score is an anomaly. It's the worst defeat suffered by Argentina in 100 years, folks! In the past the Argentinian national team and clubs have won many a time in La Paz. It's never easy, but it's not supposed to be, is it? Maradona is a great guy, one of the only high-profile players to support Bolivia's right to chose where they play, but I think he bears much of the responsibility --and has accepted it. He tried to de-dramatize the effects of the altitude but forgot that it's is never easy. And paid dearly for his naivité. I think Maradona is on his way to becoming a pretty good coach --he knows football and his players would give their lives for him--, but he's not there yet. He's smart, though, and will learn fast, which means we'll get to see Messi, Agüero, Mascherano, Tévez and the lot of them probably winning in South Africa. But April 1, 2009 will live in infamy in the history one of then proudest footbaling world powers. And for Bolivia, another awesome scalp has been added to a pretty impressive yet small collection.
AntonioSaucedo
Complain about this comment
#6 and #55: There is a tremendous difference between Denver (5300 feet) and La Paz (12,000 feet). Running in Denver is pretty easy without acclimatisation (although it's easier with). Doing anything at 12,000 is difficult - particularly if you go into oxygen debt.
#42: You've got to be kidding - nobody has that "strength in depth" and you're assuming that Bolivia are total rubbish. If you watched the game you'd know that Bolivia are not rubbish - they made Argentina's 1st team look bad.
Complain about this comment
I believe Brazil tried to put a resolution for Concaf not allowing games in altitudes above 2,000 meters, (this would eliminate Quito and La Paz). The argentinian federation (with Maradona support) did not approve it (along of course with Bolivia, Equador and Venezuela). There are problems not only during the qualifiers but also during Libertadores (south america champions cup).
If you are flying into La Paz, as soon as leave the plane you can feel the low pressure of the air, they will institute a ban only when a player dies during a game.
In the US and Europe there are no professional games on this altitudes. Denver is less than half(1,600 meters) the altitude of La Paz and it is considered an advantage.
Complain about this comment
I watched the Argentina game with my wife who is Argentine but her mum is of Bolivian descent. We were killing ourself as the Bolivians started at break neck speed blasting shots at the net from all over the pitch - my wife said "these Bolivains have no respect", indeed they didn't and it paid off. Although she couldn't believe the score it is a defeat she would only accept against Bolivia and no other side, I think she quite liked it in a typically humorous Argentine way - obviously a Sheff Utd/ England fan, playing badly is just too common an occurance for me to even find a morsel of humor in a parallel situation!
On the subject of altitude - I climbed Cotopaxi, the highest active volcano in the world, in Ecuador a few years ago, I believe I was well over 5000m. I have no genetic links to altitude but seemed to cope reasonably well, I think there is a genetic difference in people who traditionally have lived at altitude, it is based around red blood cell oxygen capacity as an earlier post noted. For the rest of us its just pot luck. I am reasonably fit and used to run at county level as a youth but have also been a long term fan of night based actiivities. I remember some fellow gringos sneering a little at my penchant to smoke a fair bit, before and during the climb, obviously they were super prepared types with all the best kit and all that rubbish and I had to say I was very even handed later in my support and assistance during the climb as a fair few of them began to succumb to vomiting and other altitude based symptoms as I seemed fairly unaffected. We actually never quite made the summit for the same reason. Its amazing how you notice all the force begin to leave your muscles and think it will never come back yet it does as you descend. You could definitely notice that lethargy in the Argentina teams body language.
Having said all that the Argentina defenders were an accident waiting to happen and I said that to my wife after the 4-0 victory against Venezuela and that accident was going to happen at any altitude, better now than before its too late to fix.
Complain about this comment
#59 What do you mean by Gringo? So many different meanings this word has: a South American of non-Indian descent, or of Italian descent (since you're married to and Argentine, I'm assuming this is what you meant), a person of European origin, any non-South American? Do tell.
Complain about this comment
58 - no one is going to die playing football in La Paz because of altitude, they'll simply slow down and get substituted! You can die much more easily from heat exhaustion, for instance by overdoing it on the coast of Brasil as was argued against their somewhat petty case against Ecuador, Bolivia and Colombia (and Peru's Cuzco games). Brasil already have nearly as many inhabitants as the rest of S.A. put together to draw on so why complain so much about others using their own resources to their advantage. I'm surprised the Brasil FA aren't complaining that Messi received Catalan growth hormones and therefore isn't really Argentinian at all!
Complain about this comment
As far as I understand gringo actually comes from the phrase "green go!!" from North American 2nd World War films and means someone from the USA (the person that told me this may have been joking I don't know) but has come to mean anyone without South American blood. I used it to refer to a group of Northern Europeans, being one myself and getting referred to as a gringo a great deal during my many travels in every country in South America. I've never heard of it being used purely for Italians, my wife is of Quechua/ Spanish descent and her family refer to our soon to be born son as 'gringito' (obviously affectionately). I am prepared to be corrected on this but the word was used in a non-offensive way anyway.
Complain about this comment
I AM FROM SOUTH AMERICA AND THIS BLOG READS REALLY STUPID.
BRITS HAVE ZERO KNOWLEDGE ABOUT WORLD FOOTBALL; THEY THINK THEIR LEAGUE IS THE BEST (WHEN IN FACT THE TOP TEAMS HAVE FEW ENGLISH PLAYERS) AND THE ENGLISH TEAM CAN BARELY BEAT TEAMS LIKE UKRAINE.
'WHO ARE YA?'
TIM SHOWS REAL LACK OF DEEP KNOWLEDGE OF THE SOUTH AMERICAN GAME, BUT TO BRIT EARS IT SOUNDS SO EXOTIC AND 'PROFOUND'.
JUST LIKE BRITS MYTHOLOGIZE BRAZILIAN FOOTBALL WITHOUT LOOKING AT ITS DARK SIDE.
WAKE UP ENGLISH PEOPLE!
GET UR HEAD OUT OF UR EPL ARSE.
THERE IS MORE AND COMPLEX FOOTBALL IN THE REST OF THE WORLD!
Complain about this comment
Comment 62: I know you used it in a non-offensive manner. My curiosity was purely linguistic. Actually, the word gringo can be found in 17th-century Spanish, so it's pretty old. It comes from "hablar en griego" (to speak in Greek) meaning to speak in an obscure way.
As for football, thank you for Comment 61. It was petty indeed. Nobody has died and nobody will, but some of the world stars just don't want to be encumbered. V them.
Complain about this comment
or from a song sung by people from the USA in the war against Mexico as the dictionary now informs me. Anyway, I am a blonde Englishman and have got called a gringo (normally with humor and certainly I take it that way) so I am reclaiming the name in the same as Afro-American rappers reclaimed their name which was previously used as a racial slur!
Complain about this comment
THIS IS A REALLY SHALLOW BLOG ENTRY
dont these "EXPERTS" realize that:
1. Brazil, which I DONT THINK is in the Andes, has won MANY if not most of its games in La Paz??
2. Uruguay, which is next to Argentina, tied Bolivia 0-0 a couple of months ago in La Paz?
3. Chile, Colombia, etc have had ties or victories in La Paz?
4. Brazil beat Bolivia in the Final of Copa America 1995 in La Paz
5. Argentina tied Bolivia 3-3 in La Paz during WC 2006 qualifiers
6. 95% of all Bolivian players in the national team are from Santa Cruz, Beni, Pando, the LOWLANDS, which are athe same altitude as Venezuela or Brazil, and most play their club football there.
also
the fact that most Argies play in top flight European athletic leagues like EPL, Serie A and Liga.
Tough, disciplined, physical (to a science), training
eg Mascherano in Liverpool; Messi in Barca, Zanetti Inter, etc etc
these guys run like crazy almost EVERY DAY; and have competitive top level games sometimes 2x week
Also a medical scientific team in Switzerland said that, while there are some effects of altitude of course, a top athlete can manage energy to play well (eg Brazil in Copa america 95; Ronaldo ran the whole field at minute 85 and scored the winning goal).
Maradona himself went to la Paz last year to play with Evo Morales at high altitude and said there is no MAJOR effect.
lastly, I played as a kid in La Paz from age 4 to 15 and I dont remember any effects.
the ball goes faster that is all.
I bet if the Netherlands played in La Paz, they would tie or beat Bolivia. They are professionals, athletic, and do not whine and complain like South Americans.
Complain about this comment
STOP THE FOOLISH ARGUMENTS ABOUT ALTITUDE!!
football should be played anywhere
Complain about this comment
Yep just found the greek link as well, like the english phrase 'it's all greek to me'!
As for comment 63, you're right the EPL is generally pretty predictable that's why I'm glad my side is in the genuinely interesting cauldron of the 2nd Division (or Championship as its been rebranded!). I think your comment is a bit over inclusive though - in my experience there are enlightened people in all countries as there are also idiots/ boludos who shout rubbish all the time and make life a misery for the rest for us, England has its fair share but we don't have exclusive rights on that.
Complain about this comment
THE RESPONSES TO THIS BLOG ARE MOSTLY RIDICULOUS.
WORLD-FOOTBALL-IGNORANT BRITS TAKE TIM AT HIS WORD.
THEY THINK HE'S AN 'EXPERT' ON THE MATTER.
SO HE CAN SPOUT OFF AHISTORICAL, DECONTEXTUALIZED STATEMENTS ABOUT THE 'EVILS OF ALTITUDE' WITHOUT ADDRESSING HISTORICAL FACTS (EG BRAZIL'S HIGH RATE OF SUCCESS IN LA PAZ) OR SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.
SHOWS THE PATHETIC LEVEL OF IGNORANCE ABOUT WORLD FOOTBALL SHOWS BY BRITS RIGHT NOW.
IF ANYTHING, YOU BRITS SHOULD BE HAPPY ABOUT ARGENTINA LOSING 6-1 AND NOT MAKE EXCUSES FOR THEM (ESPECIALLY SINCE DIEGO ROBBED YOU IN 1986).
Complain about this comment
YES
LETS ARRANGE A GAME BOLIVIA-NETHERLANDS IN LA PAZ.
THE DUTCH ARE PROFESSIONALS. NO WHINERS. REAL ATHLETES.
THEY WOULD WIN OR TIE IN LA PAZ'S 'ALTITUDE.'
THIS WOULD PUT AN END TO WHINING BY ARGIES, BRAZZIES, AND BRITS.
MESSI WAS THE WORST.
HE HAD TWO CHANCES. ONE HE SHOT RIGHT INTO THE HANDS OF THE KEEPER ARIAS.
THE SECOND, HE DID WELL BUT ARIAS DID EVEN BETTER. ONE OF THE BEST SAVES OF ALL TIMES. AS GOOD AS BANKS' SAVE FROM PELE SHOT.
MESSAGE TO ARGIES AND BRAZZIES: STOP WHINING!!!!!!!!!!! JUST PLAY.
LIKE DIEGO MARADONA THE ONLY CLASSY ARGIE SAYS.
Complain about this comment
BOLIVIA WOULD BEAT ENGLAND IN LA PAZ 3-0
Complain about this comment
Who cares - you just said earlier that England are rubbish so it would be a hollow victory methinks...
Complain about this comment
Personally - as I said earlier, I congratulate Bolivia, they played great without pause the whole game...
Complain about this comment
First time here people!!!!
Great blog Timmy
I am a huge fan of your blogs which is why I have signed up 2day and since I have a lot of time on my hands at work you will hear a fair amount from me mossly nice comments.
anyway back to the subject why make silly excuess every time big teams like the argentina lose 6-1 just take the lost because the other team where better end off.
Complain about this comment
this is the match that lad flamengo to support the fifa's ban on high altitude: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IavBIedf9MY
i'm not excusing flamengo (i hate them), but this match proves the influence altitude has.
To Davacano: i agree that people use altitude as excuse for everything. and i was not satisfied when people blamed the altitude in 93 when brazil lost to bolivia. but to say altitude is irrelevant is nonsense. btw, when brazil won copa america in 1997 (not 95) it was very clear that many players were sparing energy through the match. in the end, edmundo almost couldn't run. dunga was barely moving. and zagallo (who was the coach!) was PURPLE when he said the famous phrase "voces vão ter que me engolir".
about argentina: even though i'm happy with the result, it has an side effect: the terrible dunga will use it forever as an excuse for brazil's bad performances ("look what happened to argentina. but we earned an "heroic" draw against ecuador...")
Complain about this comment
# 66 Not all South Americans complain though. As I say in 56, Diego Magno himself supports Bolivia's right to host games wherever the V they want. Chilavert, the Paraguayan goalkeeping legend, is another supporter. It's usually the Brazilians (not all, of course). And some Argentinians.
PS: Scots, cut the puritanical nonsense and reinstate Ferguson and McGregor
Complain about this comment
I had to laugh when I saw the coach of Paraguay wearing an oxygen mask on the bench against Ecuador the other night - taking the point a bit far!
Complain about this comment
yea the oxygen mask is HISTRIONICS
latin theatrics
Complain about this comment
He was jumping about (without it) a few seconds later shouting at the ref! Quality moment for me...
Complain about this comment
76 - I reckon anyone who can do an all-nighter to that extent would probably not notice the altitude, time to reinstate them into a Scotland-B/altitude team to permanently train in the Andes ready for Scotland's neediest hour, maybe against the altitude beaters Holland in Jo'brg next year (my mum's a scot so I do mean this in pure jest)!
Complain about this comment
“95% of all Bolivian players in the national team are from Santa Cruz, Beni, Pando, the LOWLANDS, which are athe same altitude as Venezuela or Brazil, and most play their club football there.”
Except that 6-out-of-11 starting players (and all three used substitutes) in the 6-1 victory play their soccer in the Bolivian ‘highlands’: La Paz, Sucre, Potosi (over 4km last time I was there!), Oruro, and Cochabamba. Kinda ruins your point, huh!
Complain about this comment
81 - HA!!! Good research/ knowledge!
Complain about this comment
The Bolivian team, along with many others in the continent this time around, has been far from consistent, BUT they did draw with Brazil (in Brazil) last September, and with only 10 men for the second half - so it's not only about altitude, but about ATTITUDE. As Maradona acknowledged, Bolivia played better in all parts of the pitch. They kept the ball, passed and crossed it well, and didn't waste their breath running around like headless chickens trying to find the ball, as did the Argentinians much of the time.
Complain about this comment
"1. Brazil, which I DONT THINK is in the Andes, has won MANY if not most of its games in La Paz??"
Well, from looking here (http://www.staff.city.ac.uk/~sc397/football/aifr21_3.htm), the best I can do right now, Brazil’s record (W-D-L) against Bolivia between 1949 and 1997 is:
Home: 5-1-0 (Brazil score 4.5 goals per game)
Neutral: 7-0-0 (4.4)
Away: 3-0-3 (2.0)
Another of your points has fallen a little flat I'd say.
Complain about this comment
"1. Brazil, which I DONT THINK is in the Andes, has won MANY if not most of its games in La Paz??"
While I’m at it, here is Argentina’s record (W-D-L) against Bolivia (1926 to 2001) from the same site:
Home: 9-0-0 (3.2 Argentina goals)
Neutral: 7-1-0 (3.5)
Away: 2-1-5 (1.4)
Complain about this comment
#81 - this was much the same point as I was making regarding Ecuador.
I said earlier that only 4 of the matchday 18 for Ecuador that day currently play at altitude in Quito with their club sides. In fact I was overly generous on Brazil, since only 2 of the 13 Ecuadorians that actually got on the pitch play regularly at altitude, one of whom was the goalkeeper.
As for Diego getting involved in the altitude argument. He was so good, that nothing would have stopped him looking a class above the rest in his heyday. Although obviously not the athlete he once was, the little fella was struggling for air just talking in the press conference which somewhat undermined his argument. His involvement was perhaps overly politically motivated in any case, being as he is mates with half of Latin America's leftist leaders and seeing it as an opportunity to stick two fingers up to the conservative establishment.
Complain about this comment
Erm, Davacano, there's no need to shout. The caps lock key is normally quite a prominent button on the left-hand side of your keyboard.
I don't know if you're familiar with the expression 'people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones', but talking about 'pathetic levels of ignorance' while displaying the very same trait yourself makes you look a bit silly. There is no such thing as a British football team, or a British league. Please go away and look up the difference between 'England' and 'Britain' in an encyclopedia. There's a good boy.
Complain about this comment
81 is right. Most of the Bolivian players who creamed Argentina are from the lowlands but play in the highlands. But that doesn't change the fact that every single country in the world choses where to play their home matches. Why would, Bolivia or Ecuador be the exception? The countries that complain the most are Argentina and Brasil (sorry, can't write it with a z; it's just wrong), two of the teams that historically have gotten good results from La Paz but don't want their stars to suffer. Plus, these two usually look down upon the rest of South America. They have this why should I have to even bother attitude. V them. Curiously, most of the rest of South America loves Brasil and dispises Argentina, even though you can argue they're equally disdainful toward their neighbors. I guess Brasilian disdain is lost in translation.
Complain about this comment
#81's argument that Maradon'a support of Bolivia's right to play World Cup Qualifiers in its capital city is motivated by left-wing political leanings is about as stupid a comment that I've seen in ages.
Maradona, as a professional footballer, and as someone who respects footballers all over the world, just believes that athletes should be able to compete in all venues, wherever they are.
The Altiplano countries have had to play in cities of exteremely high humidity, which is just as debilitating for those unaccustomed to it, as can be altitude for those from the lowlands
Complain about this comment
Apologies to #81. it was comment #86 I was referring to...
Complain about this comment
"I said earlier that only 4 of the matchday 18 for Ecuador that day currently play at altitude in Quito with their club sides. "
Strangely, we were making opposite points! I wasn’t offering an opinion on the altitude argument, just refuting davacano’s assertion that most of the Bolivian players ply their trade in the lowlands. To your list though I would add the two players that play in Bogota and Riobamba, making 6-out-11 of the Ecuadorian starters that regularly play their club football at altitude.
Complain about this comment
Maradona - a man with opinions on politics and professional sport, its all OK with me especially when the the 2 cross over a little - as life does most of the time...
Complain about this comment
91 - keep going, I love it when people argue the toss against blunt facts and keep digging a deeper one. Eventually the statistics will have to win ... the people just get drunk and dismiss it all... its a crying shame but people don't like to admit that they are wrong - it doesn't hurt that much surely!
Complain about this comment
since we've had a nationalist buffoon lowering the tone, some clarifications.
1 - I have defended in this blog the right of teams to play at altitude. I agree -football is universal and should be played everywhere.
The health risk issue - doesn't convince me - altitude is certainy a discomfort, but specialists seem to think that extreme heat is much more of a risk, and we even have World Cups played in those conditions.
The home advanatge issue - it clearly does ofer an advantage, but how much hoome advantage is too much? You can go to Moscow and play Russia on an artificial pitch in temperatures way below zero, and this is peritted, so whay not altitude?
Now we've got that out of the way.
This doesn't mean, though, that it's the same game. Altitude cleraly has an effect against an unacclimatised opponent. This kind of result (the 6-1) is always a possibility given that
a) Bolivia play well enough to take advanatge of the conditions - this doesn't always happen. As the blog says, they've found form now - going into the game Botero and Martins were the top scorers in the entire campaign - this tells us something about the threat they offer. They need to play at pace and to stretch the game as much as possible to force the opponents to run;
b) the opponents have no adequate game plan - which was Argentina's case. Maradona mixed it up - he confused a defence of altitude with the idea that its effects can be overcome purely with a force of will. Motivational slogans were no substitute for a gameplan that adapated his tea to the condition as far as possible - compact, NOT DEFENDING TOO DEEP ( a cardinal sin), trying to take the steam out of the game in midfield and launching a quick striker from time to time - Lavezzi would have been the ideal man for this task - just as Galetti was the last time Argentina visited.
Brazil's high rate of success in la Paz is simply not true - though they won the final of the 97 Copa America there (with more time to acclimatise) their visits in World Cup qualifying are somethign they dread - the 3-1 defeat in 2001 could easily have been 10. As for Ronaldo, last time round he found Quito too much(at 2,800 significantly lower than La Paz - thaose extra metres to 3,600 make a huge difference).
Part of Brazil's problem is the way they play these days - they often leave the midfield narrow and depend on the lung power of the full backs to provide the attacking width. Without acclimtisation it simply isn't possible for the full backs to do this amount of running - this was the key reason he team had no midfield v Ecuador - with the full backs not showing high up the field there's no out ball.
There - some explanation and analysis for you - this line which I get sometimes - 'the Brits can't understand South American football' - it's very tiresome - firstly because I'm not a spokesman for my nationality, and secondly because you never hear it the other way round - (ie we south americans can't possily know anything about the European game).
Down with nationalisms, down with fascism - the global game belongs to us all.
Complain about this comment
Hear hear - one should never have an opinion if you are British despite the rest of the world having an opinion on us (however 'un'qualified). To be fair my experiences in South America have led me to believe in open-mindedness more than before I set foot on the continent so I urge others to not allow bias to develop as a result of a few idiots (in the same way as you wouldn't build rules for living based on what you hear on an average London bus!).
Complain about this comment
May I add that that opinion of 'Brits" ( I hate that word) is normally a stereotype based on our ancestral imperial 'betters' who were abusing the majority of us on this island in a similar manner to their behaviour in the rest of the world (for example working class Sheffielders been cannon fodder in WW1, shot if they thought their 'educated' 'superiors' were brainless idiots which history clearly demonstrates they were).
We have more similarities en masse than differences I hope!
Complain about this comment
Amen to that (96) ArgentinaBlade!
Complain about this comment
#91
"To your list though I would add the two players that play in Bogota and Riobamba, making 6-out-11 of the Ecuadorian starters that regularly play their club football at altitude."
I'll give you Hurtado who plays for Millonarios in Bogota: apologies for poor altitude knowledge there! But who plays in Riobamba that got on the pitch against Brazil? Sorry, really can't see who you mean although I'll gladly stand corrected. In any case, that makes 3 (or 4, when you tell me who the mystery man is!) players who played in the starting 11 or as subs against Brazil, who regularly play at altitude. Not 6 though.
Complain about this comment
My great grandfather's brother was one of them, shot in the eye age 18 in the Somme - I have/ still use his tin chest in our lounge, one of the things my wife keeps in there is her Argentina flag which comes out on match days - obvio! My great grandfather was lucky - mustard gassed around the same time, told he had 2 years at the most, died aged 90 - we were all laughing at the funeral as I'm sure he would have been if he wasn't a serious atheist...It really bugs me when people judge all British people by the ruling classes' behaviour. Oh well that's media representation for you.
Complain about this comment
Almost 4 years to do the day, Argentina played in La Paz, in the same stadium and won 2-1. Altitude plays a problem for most teams going to Bolivia, but this result was down to shoddy team selection and awful tactics and defending. Also Heinze should never play for the national team again.
Disappointed Tim. You seem to have shielded Maradona from just criticism in this game. I simply don't buy the entire argument of altitude, when you put into context the severity of the defeat and the absolute abysmal defending. The Argentinean back-line looked like they were playing 8000km above sea-level let alone 3000.
You only have to look at how one Argentine (Bielsa) approached the game in La Paz and compare it with how the other (Maradona) did. If Argentina collapsed so easily as a result of the altitude, why have they not done it in their previous qualification campaigns?
Complain about this comment
Just as well that some of us don't judge all Latin Americans by the behaviour of their ruling classes, or indeed individuals... I doubt my impression of such warm, down to earth and friendly people would be so enduring if this was the case.
Complain about this comment
101 - exactly!
Complain about this comment
would peter crouch have a problem with alptitude?
Complain about this comment
I got alptitude problems on a recent visit to Austria actually...
Complain about this comment
104.
did you concede 6?
Complain about this comment
another factor not to be forgotten in Argentina's defeat it the country's superiority complex. we're the best, lads, no argentine would expect its heroes to lose anywhere, much less in bolivia, are you joking?anyway, let's hope maradona gets his team to the world cup, if not he could be back onto whatever he was on. he shouldn't be coach. he is a recovering addict, although there is some doubt about if he is or isn't, and he has little or no experience, he did coach a team in interior argentina once and he is still famous for the barbecues and booze ups that he used to organize. diego has not been known for his severity and barbecues are still part of his training system, he looks after his lads. don't expect him to change attitude, he's not known to do that, but do expect lots of comments like "stab in the heart" from him, he's good at that and i suppose he will continue to wear a watch on each wrist and to smoke big fat Cuban seegars. I'd say he's like an unexploded bomb that everybody knows is there, but nobody wants to touch, although everyone knows its damn dangerous. He can go off at any minute, just give him time.
Complain about this comment
105.
No, I still make it 3 to be honest.
I'm not sure about 6, but your lot conceded 4 recently :)
Complain about this comment
"But who plays in Riobamba that got on the pitch against Brazil?"
I too readily stand prepared to be corrected. In the meantime, I count four playing for LDU Quito (José Cevallos, Néicer Reasco Yano, Edison Méndez, Joffre Guerron Mendez), one for Millonarios (Iván Hurtado), and one for Centro Deportivo Olmedo in Riobamaba (Luis Valencia). Which makes 6-out-of-11 starters ‘from’ altitude.
Complain about this comment
I'll concede Hurtado from my original count, since I'd forgotten that Bogota was way up in the clouds too.
But I thought that Edison Mendez, Guerron, and Valencia played for PSV, Getafe, and Wigan respectively?
So I respectfully still make it 3, not 6.
Complain about this comment
“So I respectfully still make it 3, not 6.”
Ahh that’s because, unlike me, you didn’t just quickly look at ESPN (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/match?id=230045) and trust that they had the club for each player listed correctly (for example, here is ESPN’s entry for Valencia: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/international?id=56891&league=fifa.world)!!!
As I was readily prepared to do, I stand corrected! (darned ESPN!)
Perhaps now I should state an opinion on altitude! I think Ecuador, Bolivia, and Colombia should play in their capital cities. However, the possibility of Brazil scheduling a game to be somewhere deliberately hot/humid (have they done this?) or Russia scheduling a game on an artificial pitch in winter would be disgraceful.
Complain about this comment
You had me going there for a minute! Back to the chat then. Yes, I agree with you that a country should be allowed to play in its own capital city. I do sincerely fear for the players safety though, particularly if, due to the constraints of European league matches, they are not given adequate time to acclimatise afte travelling. In any case, no matter - as long as it's within the rules FA's will do all they can to maximise their chances of points... and that goes for artificial pitches, or more uncomfortable climates.
Complain about this comment
re #110,
I think that Bolivia had to play at least once in Recife, which is about as hot and humid as you can get, and the Bolivians did indeed feel that it was gamesmanship on Brazil's part.
Complain about this comment
89.
If you think that Maradona's going to Bolivia was not politically motivated, I personally think you're being a little naive. On his visit, particularly during his address to a rapturous Bolivian crowd in their stadium that afternoon, there was much more about politics than football.
He has been used as a political pawn since he was a young lad in his defence.
Anyway, interesting article from a few years ago (so doesn't mention more recent trips to see Correa, Chavez, Morales and Castro). He does touch on some of this in his excellent autobiography though:
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/sports/political+football+diego+maradona/577387
Complain about this comment
Great Blog Tim!
Let me remind you that Bolivia lost in La Paz 2-1 to Argentina and tie 3-3 the last qualifiers. This time around Bolivia lost to Chile 0-2.
I was at the game and never saw Bolivia play as they did with Argentina...more than Altitude was Attitude....
Complain about this comment
richianjones
Last year was not the first time that Bolivia has had to argue its right to play in its capital city, and Maradona has always supported Bolivia - well before the recent leftwing government's election, so you should not invent spurious political motives. The recent previous governments have mostly been Centre or to the Right, when DM was also supporting Bolivia.
So back to football - In Recife the temperature was 40 degrees centigrade! apart from the excessive humidity.
Complain about this comment
richianjones
To fill in a bit more about Maradona, he is a strong supporter of help to poor people (where he came from) and that is probably one reason why he has lent his support to the Tahuichi Academy in Santa Cruz, Bolivia. This Acadamey was founded to get poor young kids (including girls and disabled children)off the streets and give them something to train for. That Academy has produced more of Bolivia's national footballers than any other "school", as well as for many years trouncing youth teams from all over the world on its overseas tours.
So Maradona's motives are most certainly more aligned with supporting poor countries that sometimes don't get heard, rather than for calculated political personal benefit.
Get in the "other" real world, and if DM shares "left-wing" views, think of where he came from, and what his country and most of Latin America went through during the dictatorships. He is in very good company - witness the number of Lat Am. countries that have socialist governments.
It doesn't have anything to do with his support of Bolivia's right to play in its capital, somthing he has done for years.
You diminish the debate with snide references to his motives
Complain about this comment
Tim,
Good blog. As a South-American myself, I must disagree with davacano. I do think you're pretty well informed and you definitely know enough about our football to talk about it on either side of the Atlantic. I have disagreed with you in the past (I still think you're, at least, 5% biased towards Brazil) but this time around it was fair (though I think you should have mentioned how Maradona completely dismissed the altitude issue before and after the game).
As far as Argentina's qualification being at risk, can you honestly say you believe it? Who would take their place? Us (Colombia)? Ecuador? Venezuela!?!? Sure, if we hadn't had that ridiculous red card, we may have had a chance in Puerto Ordaz. But do you really see us getting a point from Bs. As. next time?
I read your article on cnnsi and I liked it. However, I insist, you should also write about Chile and Uruguay here. Besides two slip-ups (Paraguay and Brazil), Bielsa has done a great job (came back with 3 points from that "fortress" of La Paz) with them and I would hope to see them past the group stages in SA.
Are you still writing something for Monday?
Have a good weekend.
Complain about this comment
Also, I know you're supposed to concentrate on South America but I do believe there's space here for you to talk about Eriksson, Aguirre, and the national Mexican team.
I would love to hear your thoughts on it as I am sure "El Vasco" will turn them around and, opefully, take them at least to the quarterfinals in SA.
Complain about this comment
#106 Gaucholindo: As Tom can probably confirm, the Brasilian definition of Argentinians is Italians who speak Spanish, believe they are English and behave like the French. Hence the superiority complex.
Complain about this comment
115, 116
I hadn't realised that Maradona had such a long-standing committment to Bolivia being allowed to play at altitude, but would love to know where I can read more about that.
I have absolutely no doubt that Maradona has done excellent humanitarian work the length and breadth of South America. Indeed, I found his biography a fascinating insight into the man. However, your responses really didn't do anything other than to support the fact that he saw the issue of altitude as a political one, i.e. motivated to support a country and FA that "sometimes don't get heard" in front of a generally conservative (football and political) establishment... which was my original point.
Complain about this comment
I was at a bar having a bear with a friend and keeping track of all the world cup qualifier games. I remember looking at the TV screen and seeing the Argentina an Bolivia score. It was 04.01.09, so I thought! This got to be some funny joke!!! There is no way Argentina is loosing to Bolivia 6x1. What a surprise! To be fair, I should say what a wonderful surprise. It jut happens that my best two friends are from Argentina and Bolivia (I am from Brazil and it took a while for my Bolivian friend to believe me). I was so happy for him (Sorry Michael, when it comes to soccer I still hate Argentina), then I realized that we still have to play Bolivia in La Paz. Ooops, I better refrain from making fun of my Argentinian friend!!!!!
Complain about this comment
#63 - Davacano
I actually found your comment most enlightening. As most readers have zero in depth knowledge of South American football, they are enclined to take everything Tim says as gospel. We often disagree with sports writers talking about the English game, because we all have some degree of knowledge, opinion and views.
It makes me laugh when I read a message taling about how great and informative Tim's blogs are. How do we know? he simply knows more than us, thats all! I love listening to Sid Lowe talking about Spanish football on a well known podcast, but i'm sure if I lived there i'd have different views to him and agree with him less.
I have to bring you up on your ridiculous "get your heads out of your EPL asses" comment tho. I live in Mexico and so get to see a lot of Libertadores & Sudamericana matches on TV, and aside from the rising stars & aging players returning from Europe theres very little to get excited about. Having seen football on both sides of the Atlantic I can safely say Europe is light years ahead.
And on the subject of altitude, it has a massive effect, and makes a mockery of Latin American football. I just can't take games at altitude seriously. Games should be won based on the football, not by the fact that one team's blowing out their backsides after 5 minutes!!
Tim - using the examples of hot and cold conditions as an argument for games at altitude is quite ridiculous. Whilst temperature may provide an advantage for the home side who are used to it, they don't have a scientifically proven physiological advantage that is guarenteed to skew the result..........think about it will you?!!
Complain about this comment
One should note that former Argentine coach, Jose Pekerman, chose to send an "alternative" team to La Paz during the last qualifications round...and Argentina returned to Buenos Aires triumphant, 2-0. The "main" squad remained in Buenos Aires, and then won the next game handily in the Monumental. Pekerman will forever be criticized for leaving Messi on the bench in the quarter-final match against Germany in the World Cup, but Diego should take note of Pekerman's astute decision of preparing two "basic" teams for these types of occasions. By the way, in June Argentina have a must-win situation vs. Colombia in Buenos Aires, followed by another critical game vs. Ecuador in the altitude of Quito. Diego has a lot of good players at his disposal...but what will he do?
Complain about this comment
Ever since I began looking at these articles of Tim Vickery I used to find way out of the context of true knowledge of South american football. Often seemed to be leaning towards how best the Argentinians were, or persisting advertise campaigns for some unknown Brazilian from Cruzeiro indicating that was going to be a superstar, biased articles sounding almost like playing the role of an agent for some interest.
In the end, the only player who was sold from Cruzeiro was Marcelo Martins Moreno from Bolivia to Shaktar Donetsk and Tim never mentioned this on any of his articles maybe because is not Argentinian or Brazilian?
Now comes with Altitud?
What are you talking about Tim Vickery, It would be hard for any European club to play in La Paz?
Hungary beat in a world cup qualifiers to a very good Bolivian side 5 - 2 in La Paz and no one complained about altitud. Same did won several games different Spanish Clubs in La paz, Atletico Madrid did few times.
What a cheap pretext have Brazil and Argentinians come up with in the recent times to justify their incompetence at a southamerican competitions. Anyway Tim Argentina leaves in the land of being spiritual Champions for the last 20 years, and it would be good if you Tim Vickery write about how that happen when even Argentinian commentators are right now discussing this issues, and not try to justify in the climatic conditions their humiliating defeat, or at least you should try to find out about their qualifier campaigns since 94.
Ok, fair enough don't give credit to Bolivia for their win, but at least you people have some knowledge and a bit of morals before pointing fingers in altitude issues playing the role of scientists which by the way those comments never existed before, It only began when both Brazil and Argentina well beaten by Bolivia.
Would England be happy to play inside an OVEN like the Brazilians do to the Bolivians by taking them to Recife at 45 degrees of temperature?
Or should also England be consider to be banned from the game of football because in that country the sun hardly shines?
This is why sites like youtube become so popular, because people are tired of being manipulated by a biased media filled up with incompetent article writers.
Moreover Bolivian team is in formation still, and the team that played aginst Argentina never played together, only 60% of them played against Paraguay and took their unbeaten run too. Also Bolivia In Brazil with only 10 men they nearly beat Brazil on their own soil. Modesty apart I think Bolivia has made you more than a favor and you should say instead:
God Bless Bolivia. England's favourite team.!
LOL beautiful , how the mighty have fallen. Argies enjoy your pie, eat it all up, its good for you.
Argentinians represent the pretencious marketing and were nothing against the modest Bolivia.
Yes, nothing like a good serving of humble pie to bring you back to reality and place both your feet firmly upon the ground! 6 - 1.
felix juan R
Complain about this comment
First post. Didnt feel the need till now as for every 100 foolish posts, 1-2 posts justified logic and personified humility and a sense of understanding. Firstly, the posters have to realise that as a BLOG, it contains the thought process of the blogger and not NEWS! Secondly, from what i've read all over BBS Sports, Mr. Vickery is the only one that goes beyond public/popular opinions and writes what he feels and incorporates the various logics from different sources and tries to put his point forward. To me, it's simply brilliant and most unbiased blog i've ever read!!! Cheers to Tim!!!
Complain about this comment
I was being a bit polemical, OK I admit.
My blood boils when I hear the same old debates about altitude.
But Tim, "Down with nationalism, down with fascism"???
that is too much!
I am from Bolivia, and I DREAM of one day reading about Bolivia beating some other country and there being no mention of altitude at all, or perhaps a footnote about it.
We in Bolivia are tired of the putdowns, qualifications, rants, and whining not just of some Argentines and Brazilians who visit there, but now we have to contend with the global media?
If football is INDEED UNIVERSAL, then the altitude issue should be a footnote, not the MAIN HEADLINE of an article.
So Tim, against the wave of adulation of your fan base here on this blog, I must say that you are rife with immanent contradictions.
Please, God, let us someday read about Bolivia's team, players, strategy, skills at passing (we have been great at toque passing at least as far back as 93 if you can recall Bolivia-Germany in 94).
Football without nationalism would be like England without tea or lager.
it is a vital, necessary part of it, unless you want to see two neutral teams dressed in white/black like a chess game. It is part of the passion, part of the fuel that makes the World Cup the greatest show on earth. The aesthetic spectacle of nationalism has, alas, a sordid beauty. We cannot deny that.
As for fascism, I have no idea where that thought came from. Too many Ken Loach movies?
Bottom line:
Brazil won Copa America in La Paz in 97
Uruguay tied us 0-0 a few months ago
Argentina tied 3-3 in La Paz
so Argentina losing 6-1 at La Paz should NOT be pegged on the altitude as a MAJOR reason.
(the title of your blog article says "Coping with high Altitude"...unless I am a complete imbecile which is unlikely choosing this title points to the issue of altitude, not Bolivia's great game. you could have called it "When Attitude beats Altitude".
I apologize to all English, Scots, Micks, and Welsh peoples for calling you all Brits.
I love England. I met Gazza at World Cup 1990 right after they lost to Gerries when I was a young reporter for a Bolivian paper. He came up to me after I called out "Gazza! great game!" by the team bus in Turin. He turned around came over and shook my hand with both of his, pursing his lips and still with tears in his eyes.
Complain about this comment
para #124 TRUEFUTBOL
tienes toda la razon compadre!!
mil gracias por tus comentarios completamente precisos!
un gran abrazo de tu hermano del altiplano
estos ingleses se creen la maravilla y no saben que decir; siempre la misma huevada con elogios a los Gargantas Gauchos y a los Brasucos.
yo tambien estoy harto de estos prejuicios.
Complain about this comment
davacano,
Have you ever played at a professional level in La Paz?
If footballers from Argentina to Paraguay say that the altitude is a significant factor, then it must be true.
Tim has pointed out the fact that every game in La Paz is a one off match. I totally agree with that.
Complain about this comment
#120
This is a football blog, and I think your (supposedly right-wing) criticisms of Maradona's poltics are infantile and have nothing to do with what most bloggers here are discussing - how to design a strategy for coping with matches at altitude, and how much is it an advantage for the home team?
Get back to football and leave speculative, simplistic political analysis to others who have geater insight.
#122
Ask any sportsman what they think about competing in climatic extremes of any kind. There are a variety of scientific studies that affirm that competing in extreme cold or heat/humidity is highly debilitating for those unaccustomed to those conditions. Just recently, many tennis players were very affected by the heat/humidity at the Australian Open.
Complain about this comment
to ALIMANA
Why?
why should Argentinians and Paraguayans be trusted ipso facto?
are they somehow Divine compared to others?
that is a non sequitur.
YES! playing at high altitude gives some (slight) advantage to the home team. BUT so does playing in Recife heat/humidity or freezing Nordic weather.
also, I played amateur football in La Paz when I was 18-25. Why should it matter that it was not professional? are professionals only the ones that get affected by altitude? LOL
Complain about this comment
conversely:
even if high altitude were to be an advantage to Bolivian players, then that means that for them, playing at low altitude is a DISADVANTAGE.
since they are, according to some people's logic, used to mainly playing at altitude.
So why not ban games at low altitude or sealevel since it is unfair for some Bolivian/Ecuadorean/etc players?
only because those BIG MONEY$ countries happen to be located at sea level, and they have the clout to dominate hegemonically.
Complain about this comment
One note on Tim's lefty "down with nationalism and fascism!":
if you were true to your slogan, you'd support the peripheral, exploited, marginal nations, rather than side with the Imperial metropolitan hegemonic powers of world football.
Complain about this comment
sorry for all the posts, but im just amazed that other people aren't annoyed by so many comments like "great blog Tim! yea samba football is great and exotic!".
I think Edward Said might call it Australism.
Complain about this comment
129.
My point was merely illustrating the symbiotic relationship between football and politics on this issue, not casting aspersions on Maradona's particular leaning. The fact that it's left, rather than right, doesn't concern me in the slightest. Let's leave it there.
To reply to your heat/humidity argument: Yes, along with altitude and the freezing cold it can also be debilitating for the uninitiated. Should associations therefore look into the possibility of giving people extra time to acclimatise, or hosting regular training camps at altitude/the beach/Norway?
Complain about this comment
127
Tenemos muchos cosas para decir, no viste cuanto commentarios hay arriba?
Complain about this comment
si, se nota que es un tema candente.
Complain about this comment
"133. At 5:17pm on 04 Apr 2009, davacano wrote:
sorry for all the posts, but im just amazed that other people aren't annoyed by so many comments like "great blog Tim! yea samba football is great and exotic!".
I think Edward Said might call it Australism."
There we have it. The crux of our disagreement. If you read my articles you'll see that we don't really disagree much on the issue of altitude. Until confronted by conclusive medical evidence that playing at altitude constitutes a health risk signgicantly greater than heat, and other extreme conditions, I will continue defendng the right of Bolivia to play at La Paz.
There is a clear home advantage to be gained from doing so - which explains why Boivia don't stage their matches at Santa Cruz de la Sierra. Bolivia are well aware of this advantage - but it is also clear that the advantage does not win the game on its own. As Ovidio Messa used to say when he was the coach - if we play at too slow a tempo, the opponents won't even feel the effects. So Bolivia's task is to stretch the game as much as possible, ping diagonal balls behind the opposing defence, force the opponents to run. This they did wonderfully well against Argentina on Wednesday - Argentina in contrast had made no specific preparations for the conditions, and came unstuck trying to play their usual game.
The complaints of players like Messi after the match are not limited to when Argentina lose. In 2001 Argentina got 2 late goals to draw 3-3 - even so, they said afterwards that their attempt to play their normal game had proved impossible - that the centre backs couldn't find enough breath to shout to the strikers, and so the midfielders had to run forwad and deliver messages like postmen.
So it's hard, but it's part of the game in South America - and, as I have stated now for the umpteenth time, it appears to me that the attempts to ban altitude are discriminatory.
Bolivia and their excllent performance are not the story here because Bolivia are not going to qualify for the World Cup. They accept this, and the team they sent to Colmbia was a confession - left the stars and some of the altitude specialists in La Paz preparing for Argentina, with coach Plantini Sanchez saying that he was looking for a 0-0 in Colombia.
So in terms of the Wold Cup qualifiers, the story is not Bolivia winning - it's Argenina losing.
So I can't really find any major differences of opinion. What seems to annoy you so much - and it's very clear in the above post - is that this foreigner has the temerity to write about South American football, and that there are some people out there who seem to like it.
Complain about this comment
Davacano,
the more you write, the more you look an absolute fool!
You are from Boliva, and yet you are completely unaware of the scientifically proven effects of playing at altitude, and also coming down to sealevel from altitude.
The effects of altitude are masssive, which is why training at altitude immediately prior to Olympic and other athletic competition is banned. This is because if you live atg altitude and then come down to sea level to compete, you have a huge advantage for a few days from all the extra red blood cells your body has created. This is why blood doping is illegal.
Also, before the effects of altitude were understood, a certain Olympic games which took place at altitude saw all the world's best athletes struggle badly, and no one understood why.
Finally, take a look at the post where someone actually went to the trouble of researching the facts (unlike you) of Bolivias history against Argentina and Brasil at home, away and on nuetral grounds. It shows a virtual 100% win record away from La Paz for Brasil and Argentina, and a combined total of over 50% wins for Bolivia in La Paz.
I think it's time you stopped talking now isn't it? ;-)
Complain about this comment
I wonder myself why so many are angry that Tim V writes about Latin American Footie, when we all should be happy that someone in the Beeb is interested enough in what is happening a couple of continents' away, giving us a chance to have an informed and passionate debate.
Keep it going!
Complain about this comment
wow, we're seeing some exaggeration here.
According to truefutbol, brazil takes bolivia to play in recife, where temperature reaches 45 degrees (i guess you're mentioning 1993, brazil 6 x 0 bolivia)! that's interesting information, considering that inmet (brazilian meteorological institute) informs that the highest temperature EVER in brazil (the whole country) is 44,7... http://www.inmet.gov.br/html/informacoes/curiosidade/sobre_tempo.html
In Recife, the highest was 35: http://www.climabrasileiro.hpg.ig.com.br/dadostemp.htm
"What a cheap pretext have Brazil and Argentinians come up with in the recent times to justify their incompetence at a southamerican competitions."
Well, according to cbf oficial book (livro oficial da confederação brasileira) brazil lost only 4 times to bolivia and, guess what? all of them0 were in bolivia. and not just in "recent times".
here are the exact dates:
31/03/1963 - 5 x 4
26/07/1979 - 2 x 1
25/07/1993 - 2 x 0
07/11/2001 - 3 x 1
as i said before, i don't accept altitude as the ONLY excuse. i think it's unacceptable to lose bolivia wherever the match is. but i also must accept it is not the same to play in la paz...
Complain about this comment
Tim -
Please do some in-depth research on the effects of altitude.
You are right that there is no major health risk from playing at altitude, but this doesn't mean there is no major effect on performance -there is a huge effect, and it has nothing to do with football.
Why should a crappy team like Bolivia (results away from La Paz and nuetral venues backs up this statement) be able to influence the results of other teams simply by staging their home games at a place where the unaclimatised are always going to struggle?
As I said in a previous post, I want to see results decided by who is the best team - whos skill and tactical ability provides the biggest influence on the game, not how well players can deal with being completely shot 5 minutes into the game.
It makes a mockery of Latin American football, and I for one have absolutely zero interest in how countries like Bolivia, Ecuador and other countries playing at altitude get on, because I don't take a single one of their home results seriously. Their home records do not indicate they are good teams in the same way that perhaps the home record of Northern Ireland does, and this is not what football is about. It's an absolute joke i'm afraid.
Devacano seems to have a problem with people not taking his country seriously. Perhaps if they played at a lower altitude, and still did well we would do!
Complain about this comment
What a pity Roberto Mexicano can only support his arguments with offensive characterizations of other nations.
Whilst agreeing that Bolivia has had many poor matches this campaign, they drew with Brazil (in Brazil) a few months ago, with only 10 men for most of the second half.
They also managed to qualify in 1994, no small feat for an under-resourced country.
Put your "crappy" prejudices away, and admit that all countries have their off moments, and some glorious ones.
Complain about this comment
mrpalba,
Tim himself stated in his last blog concerning altitude that Bolivia only qualified for '94 due to the altitude advantage, and did poorly at the tournament.
...........next?
Complain about this comment
And mrpalba,
what do you mean I can only support my statements with offensive characterisations?
Read through every one of my posts and they are full of reasoned argument, evidence and subject knowledge to support my statements, including the one you have commented on. Did you read it all?!!
...................next?
Complain about this comment
Roberto-Mexicano
Too easy to dimiss Bolivia's achievement in qualifying in 1994...
Take away home advantage ("altitude" in Bolivia's case) and assess away games only:
Brasil: 6 goals for, 4 against, GD= +2
Bolivia: 10 goals for, 9 against (6 in Recife against Brasil), GD= +1
Uruguay: 3 goals for, 5 against, GD= -2
Ecuador: 1 goal for, 5 against, GD= -4
Venezuela: 1 goal for, 20 goals against, GD= -19
Brasil won that year, and Bolivia was one shy of Brasil, in away matches with no home advantage.
Complain about this comment
Roberto Mexicano
Your offensive statements lie in your dismissive attitude to Andean countries' achievements in general, and Bolivia as a "crappy" team - lacking therfore reasoned argument, evidence, and subject knowledge (as you claim).
Read 145 for the data on Bolivia's 1994 group qualifiers (away games only, so no altitude or home advantage).
In the World Cup Finals, they drew one game with Korea, and lost to Spain (3-0) and Germany (1-0) - both of which went to the Quarter-Finals. Not awe-inspiring, but hardly disgraceful. At least they got there - on AWAY games MERIT, as much as winning at home.
Complain about this comment
143 - i don't recall saying that Bolivia did poorly in USA 94 - I beleive I wrote that in the opening game they pushed regining champions Germany all the way.
I have a lot of respect for that team - it's a shame Echeverry got himself sent off - he's a player who could have achieved more, I think. Current coach Platini Sanchez was a terrific player, and there were some other good ones as well - defenders Oscar Sanchez, Marco Sandy, young Juan Manuel Pena, who's still playing today - JC Baldivieso, a very classy midfielder.
They were a good team - perhaps without altitude they might not have qualified - perhaps. But like the Ecuador teams in 2002 and 2006 they proved they could be competitive at sea level or anywhere else the game is played.
A victory at altitude is never just altitude. There are football factors as well - as I tried to make clear in the blog with the pint about the lack of pace in Argentina's centre back pairing.
The tragedy of the Bolivian sides since is that they haven't been aywhere near as good - Echeverry went to the MLS when it wasn't as competitive as it is today - when he came back to play for his country he looked off the pace. Jaime Moreno didn't develop as they had hoped - perhaps he, too, spent too mmuch time in the early days of the MLS. Other players didn't come through - I've always liked Ronald Garcia - profiled him in World Soccer nearly 9 years ago - but he made a disastrous move to Alverca in Portugal, and it knocked his career back for a while - it's only in the last year or so that he's finally becoming the force for the national team that i always thought he could be.
I was interested to see that Bolivia sent an extraordinarily young side this year to the South American Under-20 Championships - several of them around the 17 mark. Is this a promising generation they are grooming?
Complain about this comment
An interesting article yesterday en El Clarin, one of Argentina's most important newspapers, by Ruben Dario Oliva, doctor to the Argentine national team for two world cup campaigns.
In brief, he doesn't believe that altitude is the obstacle, but has more to do with the psychological preoccupation expressed by trainers and the media. He writes that this argument has been going on for the past 40 years, and he travelled to La Paz various times in an official capacity and never had problems.
His reccomendation is to arrive and play as soon as possible thereafter, exactly what Argentina did this time around, but as Tim V and others have stated, they arrived without a game plan, and with some players clearly inadequate for the conditions.
Complain about this comment
The big question is just how much influence the altitude had on the match?
Nobody can answer that precisely, but considering that in Argentina´s previous two World Cup qualifiers against Bolivia in La Paz, they drew 3-3 (2001) and won 2-1 (2005), then there is a lot more to losing 6-1 than just altitude, I ¨would have thought.
If this match can be dismissed as a one-off, due to the altitude, then I think Argentina-s 4-0 win over Venezuela can be also, due to the timidity of the opposition.
We will have a much picture of Maradona-s managerial abilities, and Argentina-s true potential, after the next two qualifiers in June (Colombia at home, Ecuadoer away).
Personally, I didn-t think Argentina played well against Venezuela despite the scoreline. They were very disjointed in my opinion, and over-dependent on the individual brilliance of Messi, rather than any smooth passing movement or team coordination.
I am surprised how lenient the Argentina press have been with Maradona after the 6-1 defeat - I don-t think any other manager would have been afforded that luxury.
I-m surprised how un-angry Maradona was with his players. Even allowing for the altitude, some of them weren-t trying in the 2nd half in my pinion - heads had gone down, there was no leadership on the pitch, and they had given up (unnaceptable considering qualifying may come down to goal difference in the end)
I thought some of the comments on the blog after the Venuzuela match were a bit over the top, an Argentina and Maradona love-in that doesn-t reflect the current state of the national team.
Where is all this skilful passing football that the bloggers were eulogising over. Have they watched the qualifying games?
Apart from a few flashes of individual brilliance in matches like the Venuzuela and Bolivia at home, Argentina have been poor in all of their qualifying games so far. Certainly there has been very little of the technique on the ball, or passing movements, that some of the bloogers have imagined in their head. Infact, if a team like England had played the way Argentina have in the qualifiers so far, then we would all be moaning about the lack of skill and quality in English football.
As Tim pointed out on last week-s blog, Argentinïan qualification for Aouth Africa is by no means guaranteed - they-ve got some tough remaining fixtures aswell. Uruguay away as the last game could prove interesting, especially if both teams need a result to qualify.
I agree completely with those that say the altitude excuse in Bolivia, and the weakness of the opposition against Venuzuela, is disguising just how bad the Argentina deffence is. While Argentina continues to produce attacking talent, thay are short on quality defenders and goalkeepers in my opinion, and could pay a heavy price for that.
Tim made a comment last week about the lack of talent coming through in Argentina at youth level. This is something legendary Argentinian youth coaches, Ramon Madonni and Hugo Tocalli, have alluded to recently. Whether it-s due to lack of playing space nowadays, or kids spending all their time on computers, too much school work etc, kids simply don-t play in the street, wastelands the way they used to, and the talent simply at youth level isn-t coming through in the way it used to, they reckon.
Complain about this comment
127 - One minute you say you love us, then you say we are self loving prejudiced people! Stop being two faced. As for the predjudices, it's seems that you're more prejudiced than most. How many South american write or comment about european football? Millions! But WE can't comment about YOUR football? Hahahahahahahahahahahaaha. Ha. Doble morales no?
Unfortunately, The Argentinian and Brazilian teams and leagues happen to be the most exciting on the South American continent, so of course we want to hear more about them than other South American countries. When a smaller team beats a giant, it will always be translated as the giant lost, not that the little guy won. That's life so get over it!
However, I think Tim may have gone a bit OTT with the Fascism comment, although that was probably borne from the blog before last. Sabes una cosa? Solo porque tu escribes en Epanhol, no significa que no le entendimos!
Complain about this comment
Tim:
On the subject of Bolivia '94, I've just been working on a retro piece about that tournament and am watching highlights of their matches against Germany, S Korea and Spain. I don't think they were that bad, they just didn't have great luck and seemed to have an inferiority complex with their best player suspended.
Klinsmann goal was a freak (though what the keeper Trucco was doing only he knows), Etxeverry was a complete herbert getting sent off just minuted after coming on as a sub, Luis Cristaldo's red card against Korea was harsh and William Ramallo hit the woodwork against Spain at 0-0. There were plenty worse teams in that tournament: Morocco and Cameroon, for example, but African sides seem to get allowances made for them that the lesser SAs don't. I think some people dismiss Venezuela and Bolivia as whipping boys but the margin isn't that huge in SA. Their meeting was one of the best matches of the Copa América 07, I thought.
Complain about this comment
And on the result, although this is a huge victory for Bolivia, it means little as they have very little chance of qualifying now. Saying that, it could boost morale for the next competition...
For Argentina, it shows just how naive Maradona really is. If you are playing a smaller team (regardless of altitude), you should always expect that team to be playing as if their life depends on it. You keep your team tight and compact and give nothing away until they give you the opportunity to attack. Instead Argentina did the complete opposite. Add this to the Riquilme situation, where he publicly slags off the player. A player who is prone to throwing his toys out of the pram...
He have been one of (if not THE) greatest players ever, but he is no coach.
Complain about this comment
I'm a little late on the debate, but since I saw some mentions of the Brazil x Ecuador game, I felt the need to mention that no one in here believes that altitude was the reason why we almost lost last sunday.
Most of Ecuador players weren't from clubs that normally play at high altitudes, since a lot of them (7 out of the starting 11, if I'm not mistaken) are currently in Europe.
Saying that altitude doesn't affect the game is to go against the laws of Physics. You know, less air, less air resistance, faster ball. But, as Tim says, unless it affects player's health, I don't believe they shouldn't play in La Paz, or Quito.
No one in Brazil accepted altitude as the reason for our pathetic display against Ecuador. Everyone blame Dunga (me and my friends were rooting for the an Ecuador win, in the hopes Dunga would be replaced).
He insists on two pathetic defender midfielders, the out of form Ronaldinho and the Man City duo (Elano and Robinho), using people that are on the bench in small teams. The fact that Argentina lost by such a margin will only work as an excuse the next time Brazil lose, or play bad.
Complain about this comment
Mrpalba,
If the effects of altitude are largely coach and media created psychological effects, why in that early Olympic games held at altitude in the 60's I think it was (Mexico, or somewhere in South America?) did all the world's best athletes from America and Europe struggle so badly?
It wasn't due to any psychological effects, because they had no knowledge of the effects of altitude!
Stop talking absolute nonsense! These games at altitude make an absolute nonsense of the home records of the teams concerned (the likes of Bolivia, Ecuador and to some extent Mexico, who have a very good home record at Estadio Azteca, and yet have been awful away to Jamaica, Honduras, Canada and others in the past year!)
Altitude has a huge physiological effect on performance - many reporters at the Bolivia - Argentina game have commented that Mascherano clearly could hardly move just a few minutes into the game, and the same was true of the already slow centre backs Maradona used. Therefore the game would have been like playing with 9 or 10 men! No wonder they struggled!
We are meant to believe that after 10 years of mediocrity that Jenson Button is now a world hampionship contender in F1 racing, at a time when he just happens to have found himself in the car that is streets ahead of the best - Well, La Paz, Quito and perhaps even Mexico City are "the best cars" in football, and they too have poor drivers behind the wheel pretending it's talent and not the car winning the races.
What a joke!
Complain about this comment
I can't understand why there is so much uproar against an English journalist(British is a rubbish word)informing readers in Europe of the goings on of South American football.
I have to say most of your articles are interesting and informative, this monnth in World Soccer Magazine your bit on the talent scout of U-20 SAM championship was quality. Although some people have commented saying you do not touch enough upon the also rans of the continent like Bolivia, etc i don't think that is really true, this article was predominantly on that nation. But aside from that, we would prefer to hear about the Brazils and Argentinas, sides who are likely to compete in the World Cup, and who's players work on our shores.
It is pretty much accepted here that Football gets more coverage than Rugby, Wales get less coverage than England, and that people are more interested in Maradonna's team than Erwin Sanchez's.
Like Russia's artificial pitch, Bolivia's high altitude one is of controversy, and should rightly be discussed. Ok, Bolivia's strikers are doing well but really would they beat Argentina 6-1 every week.
It is a game that stands out.
I can see why south american's complain about foreigners perhaps unevely corresponding on their wonderful game, but at the end of the day it is raising awareness of their club and international game, so why complain?
Complain about this comment
Maybe Tim handled this issue not in the clearest way because the problem is not how much altitude affects but how well a manager prepares his team to play in high altitude cities (be they La Paz, Puno, Bogota, Mexico City or whatever). Whether in the context of Libertadores Cup or in the qualifying rounds, the reality is that South AMerican football will be shaped by the continent's geography. Teams go to play wherever their rivals happen to be located. This applies to MExican teams as well; for although Mexico City is considerably high and dangerously polluted, South American teams must go there to play (and take the necessary preacautions) simply because that's where the rivals are based.
Even more disappointing was to see how some people entertained the possibility that Maradona did not prepare Argentina well out of political commitments. Anyone who would argue that Maradona would prioritize his alleged political commitments over Argentina's national team simply does not know Maradona the man nor Argentina's passion for its national team (even if the romance seems a bit cold as of late).
The reality is much more simple: Maradona did not have a good strategy because he is not an experienced coach, NOT because he is friends with Evo Morales.
Now, Bolivia's merit should not overlooked simply because the game took place in La Paz (as some would like to argue). First of all, any South American football fan knows that any national team will play with much more passion and effort when they host Brazil or Argentina (whether in La Paz, Lima, Santiago, Asuncion, etc) because only then do they have an actual chance of winning the game. Therefore, the argument that BOlivia is not likely to defeat Argentina or Brazil in their own home fields as a proof that Bolivia only won because of altitude and that such game should not be taken seriously is unfair towards BOlivia because ALL OTHER South American teams are VERY UNLIKELY to defeat Brazil or Argentina in a visit to those countries (although, BOlivia just stole a point out from Brazil in Rio with one less player!).
Second, BOlivia played a terrific game. The Argentine press itself recognize that BOlivia seemed much more inspired than they had been in either this qualifyer or the previous one. Unfortunately, this is not necessarily a sign that BOlivian football is improving, just as the brilliant tie they got in Rio seems to be a one-time achievement (however good).
Complain about this comment
FAO: ''davecano'',
Your ignorant bliss sums it up. Bolivia won. Accept it. No matter the odds, have a drink on the three points. You still beat Argentina, World Cup winners, etc, etc, etc. You are not happy your country won?
And before you make comments about the whole of Britian. In 1986, Maradona and Argentina defeated ENGLAND, not BRITAIN.
In future, before you come shouting your angsty odds, please, please, please, have some backup information to hand.
We all know about the darker side of football, the exploitaiton of players and so on. Believe it or not, it does happen under the radar in developed countries also.
And if you do not like the blog, well, dry your eyes princess, and read something less offensive. Or better still, become a journalist.
Just a thought.
Regards,
MOP13
Complain about this comment
Roberto-mexicano
If you read the article I quoted, the opinions were from the Argentine national team doctor for 2 world cup campaigns. It was supposed to be informative, not to (yet again) get you going.
You clearly have problems relating to people, the way you repeatedly insult other nations and bloggers who don't agree with you.
It's a debate that most of us are having, not an inferiority complex contest.
Lighten up, and stop assuming that you're the only intelligent, informed football blogger. Respect others' opinions.
Complain about this comment
Argentina should of sent a "Ghost Team" to Bolivia a week before or so. They should of started a bunch of bench warmers vs Venz@Home then started there real team in La Paz.I knew they would have a tough time winning in La Paz, they always do. They sent a Ghost Team back in time, I wonder if Mr.Vickery can tell us a bit more about this Ghost Team from the past for Argentina. My father told me back in the 70's or so Argentina did this. This would of been a great idea.
Complain about this comment
BBC I love my Chelsea,why should we drow with Liverpool; my second chore.
Lo
ok Chelsea I fly you up and up all the way to the winning top.
Mobutu B.Abraham
Complain about this comment
View these comments in RSS