Di Stefano the greatest
Who is the greatest player ever - Pele or Maradona? It is a question I get asked all the time. It's a tricky one - and often seems to me a bit like two bald men fighting over a comb.
They were exceptional talents, to be enjoyed rather than compared, especially in the aggressive tone usually employed in the debate.
But the more I think about it the clearer my own answer, for what it's worth, seems to be. They ask Pele or Maradona. I say Di Stefano.
The comparisons on playing styles are always difficult, especially when dealing with different eras. But I think I'm on safe ground arguing that there has never been a footballer more influential than Alfredo Di Stefano.
He never played in a World Cup, but club football belongs to him. The world's two leading international club competitions bear his mark - one obviously and directly, the other indirectly.
Di Stefano was the last great product of the golden age of Argentine football, the 1940s, when he starred for River Plate. After the big players strike there in 1948 he was snapped up by Colombia's newly-launched league, and helped get the professional game off the ground there as the star of the great Millonarios side. And in 1953, at the age of 27, he went to Real Madridand changed the course of history.
When the European Cup, as the Champions League was then known, was launched in the 1955/56 season there was no guarantee of success. World War Two was still very recent, though the continent was rebuilding and starting to pull away from post-war austerity. The English authorities were sufficiently suspicious of the whole thing to discourage Chelsea from entering the inaugural version.
In hindsight, such an attitude appears ridiculous - because it meant that English crowds were missing out on the Di Stefano show.
Bobby Charlton got a close look in 1957, when he watched from the stands in the first leg of the semi final, Manchester United away to Real Madrid.
"Who is this man?" was Charlton's instant impression. "He takes the ball from the goalkeeper; he tells the full-backs what to do; wherever he is on the field he is in position to take the ball; you can see his influence on everything that is happening... I had never seen such a complete footballer. It was as though he had set up his own command centre at the heart of the game. He was as strong as he was subtle. The combination of qualities was mesmerising."
All of Europe was going through the same experience. Di Stefano took the game of football up to a level the continent had never seen before. He was not the driving force behind Real Madrid winning the first five European Cups, he was also chiefly responsible for the quick success of the competition. Everyone wanted to see his Real Madrid side.
Just as had happened after Uruguay won the 1924 Olympics in Paris, some South American talent had set off a fever for the game in Europe. If Leeds United wear white, if there is a club in the US called Real Salt Lake, and if the European Cup was an instant hit, then much of the credit belongs to Di Stefano.
Some would even argue that as the leading light in Real's galaxy, Di Stefano helped improve foreign perceptions of Spain, thus encouraging the tourist boom and consequently hastening the country's integration into mainstream Western European politics following the death of the dictator Franco.
That might well be going too far. But I don't think that it is excessive to argue that, without ever intending to, Di Stefano helped bring into life the Copa Libertadores, South America's European Cup equivalent.
There were serious impediments to launching such a competition in the continent of Di Stefano's birth - South America is huge, and transport structure, far from perfect even today, was rudimentary.
An attempt had been made in 1948 to gather the continent's best clubs for a tournament in Chile - Di Stefano played for River Plate - but although it was a success the timing was wrong; the players strike was about to erupt in Argentina, which had the effect of forcing the country into footballing isolation and driving Di Stefano to Colombia.
So there was no follow up, and no thoughts of a competition staged on a home and away basis - until an invitation arrived from Uefa.
Back on the other side of the Atlantic, the success of the European Cup was making people curious. Could there conceivably be a better team than Real Madrid somewhere out there? Did the continent that produced Di Stefano have any more where that one came from?
Uefa, then, proposed to the South American Federation that an annual game be staged between the champions of the two continents. All South America had to do was find a method of deciding its champion. And thus was born the Copa Libertadores, whose 50th version kicks off in earnest this week.
Without Di Stefano's exploits with Real Madrid it would not have got off the ground so soon.
Comments on this piece in the space provided. Other questions on South American football to vickerycolumn@hotmail.com, and I'll pick out a couple for next week.
From last week's postbag:
Since the mid-90s I have paid close attention to the Under-20 tournaments with a keen interest in Argentina. During many of these tournaments, we have witnessed the emergence of quite a few Argentine talents. This edition, however, doesn't seem to be as fruitful for them. Are there any underlying factors which have caused these below-par performances? Is it due to a lack of talent, or was the presence of Pekerman's vision that brought them so many talented players and titles?
Rene Seedorf
One win in nine games speaks for itself - it was a very poor South American Under-20 Championships from Argentina, and they can have no complaints about failing to qualify for the World Youth Cup.
On the other hand, I always think that this level is more about developing players than winning titles. The easiest way to win youth titles is to bulk up, to go with physically strong youngsters who may have this advantage tken away from them as other players fill out physically.
To their credit, Argentina don't do this. They look to develop small, technically gifted players - but without the likes of a Messi or an Aguero, this can be risky. It was clear why they were so disappointed that Chelsea wouldn't release Di Santo - it's hard enough for the senior side, with Messi, Aguero and Tevez, to play without a target man striker. For this team, without a really outstanding individual, it was all but impossible.
Some of the big name players - like Insua and Zuculini - had very disappointing tournaments. I'd heard so much about Benavides, but he didn't show much either. There are others - Salvio, Velasquez, Bella - who showed promise. Thee key thing, though, is that people learn from the experience.
I'm a West Brom fan and I was wondoring what you could tell me about our new signing Juan Carlos Menseguez. I'm aware he had a spell in Europe with Wolfsburg, how did he get on and how good is he?
Charlie Pellow
I'd love to be proved wrong, but I'll be surprised if he does much for you. He was one of those prodigies, whisked away to Europe before he'd made his mark in Argentine football - the fact that he moved back home at the age where you'd expect him to break through shows that he didn't live up to expectations.
I saw a fair bit of San Lorenzo last year, but very little from Menseguez that impressed. He spent most of the time on the bench, and looked a sluggish, heavy treading individual when he came on. The club have a spiky, aggressive striker in Bergessio who might be worth a look - I'd certainly have more faith in him than in Menseguez.
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Another great article but I feel you have overlooked the player that I feel took over the mantle of the Greatest player and made it his own. Ferenc Puskas to me, revolutionised the game to such an extent that players still can not touch his level of play. Pele and Maradona had the medium of television to highlight their skills whilst Di Stefano and Puskas were broadcast really only in highlight reels
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George Best, for me was simply the best.
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Your blog is one of the only good things about coming to work on a Monday...
I always feel guilty about this argument as for me the best player I've encountered is Zidane or Ronaldo (the original) This is because I was too young for Pele or Maradonna.. and with footage of them at times fairly scarce, I think it would be jumping on the bandwagon.. As football fans you are almost instructed to name these players as the best but I think 'your' best player should be one who has affected you or your team the most in your life..
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Great players are defined by silverware won. It's hard to ignore Pele! Which other player won 2 World Cups?
But if i had to choose a player I'd go for Gianfranco Zola!
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People will always disagree but it's nice for someone to finally recognise Di Stefano as the outsatnding influence that he was. Fantastic read Tim as ever....
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Although i agree with most you said, for me, Bobby Charlton is the greatest player to ever even look at a football, let alone grace the worlds biggest footballing stages.
I found it amusing that you used a quote from the great Bobby in a way to discredit his own case for the "greatest ever footballer" tag.
Now some may say i am biased because i am a United fan but one of the reasons i became a United fan was bacause of their history and Bobby Charlton is embedded in the history of United.
You only need to watch this years Sports Personality ceremony to be persuaded
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Shortofideas.....are you serious? George Best the best ever?
I don't see how you can justify that claim, he doesn't even have a case, based on achievements. He has special talent but no more so than at least 25 other players through history. He consistently gets rated top 3 of all time by people in the largely uneducated British media but one respected football show in Italy recently didn't even have him in their top 50 of all time. I know which end of that scale I would be on.
Tim - Berseggio flopped at Benfica in the weak Portuguese league didn't he? Has he improved since then? By the way, are you fluent in Portuguese?
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Steve Bull- the greatest player to have graced the game.
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It is quite the shame Di Stefano(Not Stafano) never got the chance to play in the WC. Being Argentine I take much pride in him. Granted he did play for Colombia as well as for Spain( A bit strange but I guess something quite normal in those days). I feel he( Don Stefano) falls in the equation of the greats that never really won the WC i.e Puskas, Yashin(But those plays played in WC's). I am far too young to recall any of those players but many greats such as Pele, Maradona pay homage to them. But I think that is the difference, the Di Stefano's, Eusebio's, Best, Yashin, Puskas never won a World Cup. I love my club teams but my national team is a whole different story. I have said it many times before, it is Country over Club. If a River Plate player scores in a game winning goal in a WC final I can promise you all Boca fans give honor to him. My money is on Diego Armando Maradona as the greatest ever. He won that WC by himself for Argentina. Pele does come in second but Pele had a lot of great players around him and some people do forget that. And the greatest to never win a WC has to be Cruijff, if he went to Argentina in 78 at the game of 31 that Netherlands team could of had a much better chance of winning the WC.
1-Maradona
2-Pele
3-Cruijff
4-di Stéfano
5-Puskas
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I always said that no one is greater than the game (soccer).
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Great Read Tim.
I live in New Delhi, India. While the coverage of most elite European leagues is great and sometimes rather too overwhelming, especially that of the BPL (where is it not?), we get to watch only highlights of some spectacular goals from the leagues of South America.
Sad when you think that India boasts of the 2 oldest footballing clubs in the history of the sport, and the first ever professional football competition. I hope we get to watch more football from South America. Still it's always nice to hear what's going on through your articles.
As far as this debate is concerned, I don't think one can ever coin one player as the greatest in the world. But, one can definately see who the greatest in each position is.
If that is the debate, where would you put Pele, Maradona and Di Stefano in your team if you did have all three of them in your playing 11?
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Good article as always Tim.
For me too many people only consider players who have once played not those still playing as the best ever.
Obviously Pele, Maradona, Di Stefano were fantastic players but for me Ryan Giggs is the greatest ever. Someone as dedicated and honest as him deserves credit (not saying that the others didnt have this, well exclude Maradona from that statement!) and with his pure talent alongside a genuine personality he is an absolute credit to football. He also has never played in a World Cup and i consider him the greatest to never play in one. Many would say Best, Di Stefano as obvious choices but this is my opinion.
However there are so many exceptional football players i believe it is impossible to judge the best ever, simply because of different era's, opposition, players around them, clubs etc...
also Tim, i was wondering if you had any views on Guilherme from Cruzeiro? ive heard he is a decent prospect, do you think he will move to a European club soon?
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More Good Interesting stuff Tim,
I feel you may have opend a nice little debate here to rage on all day over who is the best player etc.
Undoubtedly Di Stefano was a tremendous player, quite often forgotten how good he was, as all the light always seems to fall on them 2 very special players because they have won world cups, but come on people look outside the box?! I like how you have related the facts how Di Stafano not only influenced on the pitch but of it also?!
As for my twon pennies worth.......... best player to ever playe the game.......
George Best
- so mesmerising, not ever to be tainted in by mind by his off the pitch antics, always rememberd for the joy he bought on it
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at last an article that takes into account the sustance of player rather than the myth.
Alfredo di Stefano came before media intrusion and overinflated hype .
A master who could basically win a game on his own , although he just before my time his legacy was such that when I was growing up in the 60,s his name out done all arguments about who was the best .
Only Maradona could get near him but his off feild activies cloud any judgement making it impossible to reta him as the best .
The oldies live on and di stefano was the king along with Garrincha and Didi
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If zidane had not had a rush of blood to the head in the last world cup, he would surely be, in my opinion, the 1st player to break into the pele/maradona best player ever bracket, look at what he won, he was truely amazing, its just a shame he will be remembered for that crazy moment, especially when he single handly carried the french team to that final.
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Although other players of note who come close for me.......
Feranc Puskas
- i urge you to look him up, phenominal scoring record, second to none, absolutely unbelievable how many goals he scored in the amount of games he played?!
also....... a bit out there but
Lev Yashin
- Wot a keeper, a true great, again look him up, unbelievable how many clean sheets he kept and how many penalties he saved?!
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shadur10 wrote:
"Obviously Pele, Maradona, Di Stefano were fantastic players but for me Ryan Giggs is the greatest ever"
I will take a massive shot in the dark and say you are a Man United fan. I understand for you love for Giggs I have the same feeling for Pupi Zanetti but I will not call him the greatest ever. Lets not get foolish now.
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i obviously agree with the players mentioned with pele and maradona and di stefano but wee jimmy johnstone was a fantastic player for celtic and im not sure if he should be considered greater than these players but i do believe he deserves a mention
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Zola!!!! Come on - let's be serious. He couldn't even crack the Italian first team.
I think Beckenbauer redefined his position like no other.
Pele will always be the remembered as the worldwide icon of football.
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Ah almost forgot
Johan Cruyff
- phenominal player, what a talent, the things he did with a football were amazing, all be it he was outrageously arrogant, but nevertheless top players quite often are?!The Football that his dutch team played, just was "Total Football", some of the best ever seen and I dont think we will ever see anything close to it ever again?!
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Tim, Di Stafano was an exceptional player, and it's good you acknowledge that, obviously as you, i'm too young to have watched him playing on live, but you have ignored several, well known, facts in his career, first, how did join Real Madrid when he previously had an agreement with Barcelona, together with his previous club, Millionarios.
You don't mention Di Stefano was injuried in the WC 62, when he was selected to play for Spain, by the way Pele was also injured for most of that tournament.
Di Stefano helping to Spain,s integration following the death of Franco? Sorry, but here you have been found out, Franco died on 1975, Di Stefano have been retired for nearly 10 years by then, after his retirement barring a couple of odd, bad, films he was pretty anonymous, not sure of his political inclinations, but if any, he was friendly with the dictatorship.
I don't know what to say about your comments on his influence on the boom of tourism in Spain, i suppose the tourist then, as now, they were more interested in sun and cheap drinking than the remote possibility of spotting Di Stefano in Marbella.
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Excellent article, as usual. As perceptive as ever.
I am just about old enough to remember Di Stefano & Puskas as they neared the end of their glittering careers. I saw both of them play for Real Madrid in Glasgow in the early 60's and they were a class apart.
You make a convincing argument for Di Stefano particularly in view of the influence he had on the development of the 2 great continental club competitions and in the method and style that Real Madrid played. However, at Real Madrid he was surrounded by many excellent players - Puskas, Gento, Santamaria, Herrera etc.
I would put Di Stefano in the top 10 certainly, maybe even the top 5. But he falls short of Maradona. In my time no one player so dominated his team and dragged them to success as did he.
He made Napoli champions of Italy, something that they had never been before. This is done by being consistently "the best" week in week out.
We are all aware of the 1986 World Cup Finals but if you watch the video of the final, you will see a man totally in control of his team and the match. If their forwards had been a little better , Argentina would have won by 3 or 4 more given the number of chances he laid on a plate.
4 years later, he led and dragged a desperately average Argentina side to another World Cup Final.
How I wish that Scotland could just get through to the knockout stages.
I saw him play at Hampden as a 19 yr old and will never ever forget that day.
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It is very difficult to compare players from different eras, now the best players are studied, man marked and generally unable to show the element of surprise they did many years ago.
I suppose if a player has a few good games and shows a few tricks, these are repeated "ad infinitum" and the mantle of great player begins to stick. One example of this is Roberto Carlos. He has a few stunning free kicks and he was seen as a footballing god, but if you get 10 free kicks a game and over 5 seasons you score 20 goals, this is not in any way a good ratio.
I'm not 100% convinced by Cristiano Ronaldo, but Giggs and Gerrard would bet my vote.
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foolish?
His talent is exceptional.
How many modern day players could play for one of the world's biggest and most successful clubs for 18/19 years, achieve more than any other british player, have a very good disciplinary record and be an inspiration for a generation of aspiring footballers? (just too name a few things)
No british player will achieve what he has in the current game, football has changed and young players do not get the chance to succeed like he did anymore.
I do not want to try and put his career into words on here, because if you have watched him his talent speaks for itself.
But as i said in my first post, this is my opinion. everyone is entitled to there own so we should take into account what these certain players have done without arguing about it just because we do not like the choices ourselves.
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You have to laugh at these people (I presume Man United fans) coming on here claiming guys like Charlton, Giggs or Best are the best ever.
Absolutely clueless stuff so typical of United fans, and an insult to Diego Armando Maradona, who was as close to a 1-man team winning a World Cup and Serie A titles as you will see. Granted he had some very good players around him like Careca but they were probably a mid-table team without Maradona.
In my opinion he's the best ever and Pele is not a lock for top 3 by any means. These things can be argued about however, some things like those aforementioned Man United players as the best ever you cannot even entertain as legitimate arguments.
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Maradona
The most gifted player ever to step out onto a football pitch. At his peak he was sick. Just sick. There are arguments for about 5 or 6 other players throughout history but Diego was the only one who came from a different planet and was about 5 levels above others on the pitch, rather than 1 or 2 levels like other greats.
My favourate player is Ryan Giggs. He inspired me to play the game in a way I enjoyed. There is no getting away from the fact though that Maradona is the greatest ever. It scares me to think someone can be blessed with that much natural talent.
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For me, Maradona is the greatest to ever play the game. I don't consider it an over-exaggeration though to say that Lionel Messi might just be even better than him when he reaches his peak, he's scarily good.
I noticed someone pressed the claim for Puskas on the basis of his goals scored. By that logic, you need look no further than William Ralph 'Dixie' Dean. 60 goals in a season, 349 goals in 399 games for Everton as well as 18 in 16 for England. There will never, ever be anyone even comparable to Dean in the goalscoring stakes.
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I think it is important to distinguish between best player and favourite player.
At 25 the best player I have ever seen is Zidane and he is my favourite player of all time, but it is hard for me to make a case for him being the best ever, as I have not had the opportunity to compare him to the likes of Pele, Maradona or De Stefano.
All I can say is Zidane was the best in my lifetime, (in terms of medals, influence and talent,) and i think thats all anyone can say.
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shadur10- Yes thinking Ryan Giggs as the best ever. I mean are you serious? Get your head out of Man United you know what. You love your club and I get that but the best ever. Giggs in his prime would not even make a Argentine, Brasilian, Italian nor German squad. Remember one thing, COUNTRY OVER CLUB! Seems that you have more love for your club team then your national team because you can really think that he is the best ever. I just shake my head and smirk at that quote.
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The greatest player from era has got to be Zidane but there have been some other unbelievable players, Maldini (to play for so long at that level), Scholes (massively underrated), Bergkamp (a joy to watch, that goal against Argentina in the world cup was unbelievable) but the one performance that sticks in my head is Ronaldo’s hat trick against Man Utd for real Madrid in the champions league, he truly was an amazing talent and it’s a shame things didn’t work out as they could have otherwise he would have truly been spoken of as a true great of the game.
Not wishing to comment on something out of my era, I always here things about Duncan Edwards who was tragically killed in Munich, Bobby Charlton said he was the greatest player he ever saw… does anyone have any thoughts or views on him?
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Interesting article and comments. The best footballer is probably Garrincha. The second best is probably Maradona. Pele, Puskas, Di Stefano, Best, et al all are honourable mentions - but there is a slight 50s/60s bias to these lists. (Ditto with Boxers, Golfers, Tennis players etc)
There are many possible reasons for this, but I think it comes down to 3 things:
1 - Sports writers tend to be in their 40s and 50s
2 - Overall standard was lower, and much less athletic - so easier to be a standout player then
3 - Hindsight and misguided memories.
On the topic of Ryan Giggs. An exceptional footballer, no question. Had he been playing for Liverpool and England rather than Manchester United and Wales for the past 17 seasons, I would be a much happier man.
Duncan Edwards was arguably Britain's best ever footballer - better than Charlton, ask Bobby. Though others may tip a nod to Sir Stanley.
On a personal note, I would like to tip a strong nod to Marco Van Basten. Unfortunately his career was cut short. But probably the finest marksman of all time.
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Garrincha best ever for me!
Underrated and overlooked every time!
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Di Stephano was a great player. If you want to see how good he was, get a copy of the 1960 European Cup Final. There ia another player in that game who stands out as well, and he was better in my opinion.
So it has to be Puskas for me, followed by the great Fritz Walter, who was the main reason the brilliant 1954 Hungarians last the World Cup.
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Pele once said that the goal he scored against Wales in the 1958 World Cup was the most important in his life and that he thanked the stars that John Charles wasn't playing. Juventus also voted him their greatest ever foreign player. I've seen him play, he's in the same mold as Di Stefano - big, strong, subtle and commanded every game he played in.
Just a thought...
Also, Pele was simply outstanding the way in which he destroyed the england national team single handedly in 1965 was breathtaking - simply unstoppable. just because the TV was on him doesn't make him any less of a player, and to stand out in a Brazilian squad, you simply have to be the best, don't you?
Standing out in a poor or average squad is easy (Steven Gerrard does it every week, and the team are poor without him! Maradonna did it with Napoli, brilliantly). Pele did it with other players who were fantastic - Didi, Vava, Carlos Alberto - the list is 11 players strong. Pele also won them the 1958 title against Sweden and scored twice in the final... most people would also argue that Brazil would have won in 66 except pele was kicked out of the competition by Portugal in a nasty old game. he's simply accomplished more than anyone else in the game, and that for me, makes him the best...
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Im not by any way disparaging Ralph 'Dixie' Dean but as for Puskas' record -
Ferenc Puskas
Born: 2 April 1927, Budapest, Hungary
Nicknames: The Booming Cannon and The Galloping Major
Clubs: Kispest Honved (354 apps, 357 goals) and Real Madrid (528 apps, 512 goals)
International: 84 Caps, 83 Goals
Honours: Hungarian league (5), Spanish league (5), Spanish Cup, European Cup (3), Intercontinental Cup, Olympics
- I mean come on he scored more goals than games he played for Kispest Honved .......... how many players have ever achieved this?????? And also as near as damn it ........ he averaged a goal per game at international level ! ! !
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Well the greatest I ever saw was Maradona.
It makes me laugh though when I see comments like lordSUPERFRED's saying his off field comments mean he can't be rated as the best, but then goes on to mention Garrincha as one of the best.
Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of Brasilian/ South American football knows about Garrincha's tragic off field life, alcoholism etc. One of his wives Elza Soares (great Brasilian singer by the way) left him because he beat her.
Too many people are hung up on the hand of god thing because it knocked precious England out in '86.
Like you're telling me Maradona is the only player ever to have scored a handball goal?
Would you have expected him to go over to the ref and tell him to disallow it, like Lineker would have done the same?
Maradona, greatest ever, hands down
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Tim, what did you do???
Please, do not ever, start a debate about best footballer ever.
There is no way of answering it.
It's not worth reading the replies to this blog.
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Zidane > Cruyff
I agree with howdyneeber, post 16. I still get upset when I recall that match - oh what if he had scored that header..
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Just Fontaine has to be talked about as a great player as well. Scored 13 goals in the 58 WC. 13 GOALS!!
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lol@ mention of Giggs..
It's Maradona for me.
Di Stefano & Pele fine alternatives. Beckenbauer, Puskas, Cruyff, Garrincha and co in the tier just below and also good shouts.
lol ..Giggs?!
heh
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Excellent article Tim, always good to see suitable praise going to the people who’s career highlights pre-date the birthdates of most of us, I hope football crowds never forget the legacy players like Di Stefano, Puskas, Matthews and Garrincha left us to enjoy today.
You’re a braver man than me picking someone as the best player ever, I’ve always thought it’s one of life’s unanswerable questions along with who’s the best artist or where the best holiday destination is to be found. I’ll happily have a stab at answering the question in the pub but inevitably the stumbling block is always the same, the lack of an agreeable yardstick.
Sports like cricket or tennis have the advantage here, cricket is hugely statistics based, and in tennis all the top tennis players play each other in the same tournaments with no reliance on team-mates. So you have the benefit of judging players on their batting/bowling average or the number of Grand Slams in their trophy cabinet. With footballers the problem is that we lack a Don Bradman, someone who doesn’t have a single question mark over titling them the best player ever. Pele was masterful and owned the World Cup but never played at the highest club level, Cruyff re-designed how football was played but his creation stumbled at the final hurdle in the World Cup and Best could weave magic with his feet like almost no-one else but never had the chance to try his hand against Brazil or Italy in a tournament, as for Maradonna the drugs and the occasional handball just make him an uneasy choice for many (perhaps unfairly.)
I have seen two videos of games featuring Di Stefano, both of him playing for Real Madrid and his skill level was immense, amazing considering the pitches and weight of the ball in the 50’s, it looks a bit like someone has superimposed Zidane into an old movie. That Madrid team undeniably changed football and if he was the mastermind behind it on the field then that is an accolade indeed. But I confess I can’t say that makes him the best and equally nor does it rule him out against a more worthy individual; it just leaves you with the same old stalemate. The fact he didn’t play in a WC is arguably the one reason people put George Best on a rung below Pele and Maradonna and should apply equally to Di Stefano. The historical context which he played in is indeed a credit to him, a Europe being rebuilt but I don’t think we can mark down players like Zidane (solely when compared to Di Stefano) because they were born into vast wealth and political stability. For example I marvel at Garrincha’s ability when you look at his life, I am shocked at how well Best could play with a hangover and one boot, but it doesn’t make them better players but rather different characters.
One day a player will come along, they will win the World Cup more than once, dominate European club football, invent a new style of football that all teams will adopt and on top of that this person willl be kind to his mother and donate half his wages to charity. Until then I think you’ll struggle to convince me that any one man can fight off all challengers in this argument.
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I believe that di stefano was friends with franco, who ever was mentioning it, thats why he ended playing at real rather than barca, cos real was franco's team. But that doesn't stop him being a great footballer or even sharing the same politics as franco.
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its always going to be an argument with maradona and pele surely.
Its like they could see the pitch from above when they were playing...they almost played with another dymension...i cannot get my head around some of the stuff they did in a split second....
for me tho....
PELE
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Can anyone at the BBC proof read?
If so why has Di Stefano's name been misspelt in the title when it is correctly typed many times in the article?
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Your perception of who the best footballer is will always depend on your age.
The older ones think its Pele
You say it is Di Sefano who never won a World Cup
Others say its Maradona
British people think it is one of their own - Best or Charlton
I would say it is Zidane!
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Reply to #28:
Pele scored over 1,000 career goals, and Eusebio scored 301 goals in 317 games for Benfica, as well as 64 goals in 41 games for Portugal... both are streets ahead of Dixie Dean.
Pele also won THREE World Cups, not two as someone earlier claimed.
Pele is the king, Maradona a close second.
Finally, Fontaine had a very average career apart from that one World Cup...
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My top 10:
1. Maradona
2. Pele
3. Cruijff
4. Best
5. Zidane
6. Di Stefano
7. Puskas
8. Beckenbauer
9. Platini
10. Ronaldo
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35. At 10:15am on 09 Feb 2009, Sbaggo wrote:
Pele once said that the goal he scored against Wales in the 1958 World Cup was the most important in his life and that he thanked the stars that John Charles wasn't playing. Juventus also voted him their greatest ever foreign player. I've seen him play, he's in the same mold as Di Stefano - big, strong, subtle and commanded every game he played in.
Just a thought...
Also, Pele was simply outstanding the way in which he destroyed the england national team single handedly in 1965 was breathtaking - simply unstoppable. just because the TV was on him doesn't make him any less of a player, and to stand out in a Brazilian squad, you simply have to be the best, don't you?
Standing out in a poor or average squad is easy (Steven Gerrard does it every week, and the team are poor without him! Maradonna did it with Napoli, brilliantly). Pele did it with other players who were fantastic - Didi, Vava, Carlos Alberto - the list is 11 players strong. Pele also won them the 1958 title against Sweden and scored twice in the final... most people would also argue that Brazil would have won in 66 except pele was kicked out of the competition by Portugal in a nasty old game. he's simply accomplished more than anyone else in the game, and that for me, makes him the best...
-------------------------------------------------
outstanding argument!
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Edit:
I meant Eusebio scored 41 goals in 64 games for Portugal, and 317 goals in 301 games for Benfica.
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Not one mention of ROBERTO BAGGIO in 48 posts...
I know he might not have been the best but he was damn near up there. Pele says it himself(even though he is extremely naive at the best of times).
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@ post 20. YankJohn, Zola wasn't eligible to play for Italy. They didn't want non-Serie A players in the national team.
Zola would've walked straight into the starting XI of any club & International team
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No surprise that Vickery only mentioned South Americans as the greatest players ever - going native, as ever. Cruyff, Platini, Charlton, Beckenbauer and Best would all be in the same league for me. However, I admit that the case for the great Europeans is belittled a bit by the idiots (above) mentioning names such as Zola and Giggs, which is surely a joke?!?!
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Samwell2804, On Giggs:
Maldini won 5 European Cups, lost three EC finals.
Is the most capped Italian player of all time, and the most times capped as captain.
AC Milans most capped player of all time.
Won seven league titles, five domestic cups, seven miscellaneous (intercontinental, super cup and world club cup).
Eight European cup finals, a world cup and european championships final, winning thirteen other cups whilst being the most capped player in italian football... Well, whoeevr is the greatest, its not Giggs.
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I tend to get slated for my opinion on this subect, but I'm prepared to stand by it.
I genuinely do not believe that players of 40-50 years ago would look half as good in the modern era.
The advances in the game, the focus on athleticism, diet and speed make comparing someone like Charlton to someone like, for example, Messi an essentially pointless exercise. It is a contentious point of view but footballers of the older eras would struggle with modern football (if you were able to magically timewarp them here), nor would they stand head and shoulders above the best today.
That's just the way things are though and it is why 100m sprinters today would demolish 100m sprinters from only ten years ago, let alone 50.
But I would not take anything away from Tim's blog. In terms of impact on the international game, people like Maradona, Pele, Cruyff, Di Stefano definitely stand tall. But are they actually significantly better footballers than the superstars of today? I would have to say no.
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By the way to those classing Giggs and Zola in the same bracket, stop it.
Zola's statistics (wiki):
A.S.D Torres Calcio
* Serie C2: 1986-87
[edit] S.S.C. Napoli
* Serie A: 1989-90
[edit] Parma F.C.
* Serie A: (Runner-Up) 1995
* Coppa Italia: (Runner-Up) 1995
* UEFA Cup Winner's Cup: (Runner-Up) 1994
* UEFA Cup: 1995
* UEFA Super Cup: 1993
[edit] Chelsea F.C.
* FA Cup: 1997, 2000, (Runner-Up) 2002
* FA Charity Shield: 2000, (Runner-Up) 1997
* Coca-Cola Cup: 1998
* UEFA Cup Winners' Cup: 1998
* UEFA Super Cup: 1998
[edit] Cagliari Calcio
* Serie B: (Runner-Up) 2004
* FWA Footballer of the Year: 1997
* Chelsea Player of the Year: 1997, 2003
* Chelsea top goalscorer: 1999, 2003
* Order of the British Empire: 2004
* Chelsea Centenary XI: 2005
* English Football Hall of Fame: 2006
Manchester United
* Premier League (10): 1992–93, 1993–94, 1995–96, 1996–97, 1998–99, 1999–2000, 2000–01, 2002–03, 2006–07, 2007–08
* FA Cup (4): 1993–94, 1995–96, 1998–99, 2003–04
* Football League Cup (2): 1991–92, 2005–06
* FA Community Shield (7): 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2007, 2008
* UEFA Champions League (2): 1998–99, 2007–08
* UEFA Super Cup (1): 1991
* Intercontinental Cup (1): 1999
* FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008
[edit] Individual
* PFA Young Player of the Year: 1992, 1993
* Bravo Award: 1993
* BBC Wales Sports Personality of the Year: 1996
* Sir Matt Busby Player of the Year Award: 1997–98
* Intercontinental Cup Man of the Match: 1999[31]
* Premier League Team of the Decade: 2003[32]
* English Football Hall of Fame: 2005
* Wales Player of the Year Award: 1996, 2006
* FA Premier League Player of the Month: September 1993, August 2006, February 2007
* PFA Team Of The Century: 2007[33]
* PFA Team of the Year: 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1998, 2001, 2007
* Only Manchester United player to have played in all ten Premier League-winning teams and only player to win 10 league titles.
* Only Manchester United player to have played in both League Cup-winning teams
* Only player to have scored in eleven consecutive Champions League tournaments
* Only player to have scored in thirteen different Champions League tournaments
* Only player to have scored in every Premier League campaign since its inception
[edit] Orders and special awards
* OBE for services to football.[1]
Awarded an honorary Master of Arts degree from Salford University on 15 July 2008 for contributions to football and charity work in developing countries.[34]
Which also overlooks the fact that he also scored the greatest goal in the most prestigious domestic cup in the worlds history.
Not comparable, not in the same bracket at all.
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Pele - Best footballer
Ali - Best Boxer
Woods - Best golfer
Taylor - Best darts player
Steven Gerrard - Best Diver.
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Perhaps to qualify as the Greatest, we simply have to agree that the player needs to have won a WC plus either a European Cup or Copa Libertadores ? And for those who never had the chance to play at a WC, through no fault of their own, they cannot be the Greatest because we can only guess how they would have performed on the biggest stage.
If we dont agree on that condition then as per the previous poster - what about John Charles, two world class players in 0ne, plus a true gentleman ?!?
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#54
I wasn't gonna mention Maldini, but when you put it like that!
re Giggs: As good as he was/is, you'd have to be a one-eyed Manc to believe Ryan Giggs sits comfortably amongst these names.
IMO
1. Maradona
2. Maradona
3. Maradona
... with 'Fat' Ronaldo being the next best thing.
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oh yeah and of course Dalglish!
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#42
"Pele was masterful and owned the World Cup but never played at the highest club level..."
You could not be more wrong! The highest club level at that time was not just to play in Europe. The brazilian league had all of its stars so Santos was actually the best team in the world at one point.
Pelé played at the highest level throughout his career except during his spell in the NASL.
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Maldini - excellent point GodSonAcross !!
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55 - but you would have to presume that the footballers from the past would be given the same physical regime and diet of today's footballers if they played today in order for the comparison to work.
So if say Bobby Charlton had access to all of today's nutritutional and physical training advances, I do believe he would be as good as today's best.
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Tim, if you would ask Di Stefano who was the best player he had ever seen, he would tell you the paraguayan Arsenio Erico.
Case closed.
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63 - Absolutely, unfortunately we only have facts and hypothesis is no basis to form a conclusion.
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By the way, I am an Arsenal fan, and as such Henry, whilst admittedly not the greatest of all time (i think he has a record of something like 7 finals and 0 goals) I am still embittered that he didn't win World Player of the Year when goofy did. 42 goals, 23 assists, that makes Man United last year look like a well rounded team that didn't rely on one player. Henry is 100% the most rounded player I have ever seen. He scores spectacular goals, easy goals, he is incredibly quick, incredibly skillful, passionate, can play in any attacking position, tracks back and tackles, can finish with his left, right, his head, his chest, volleys, half volleys, wonder free kicks and sets up almost as many as he scores. Name any of the greatest goals in history and I'll show you one of Henry's thats at least similar, if not better. If it wasn't for his terrible record in finals, he would 100% be the greatest player of all time for me.
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I believe the greatest players are the ones that win and make it look simple. Whilst I acknowledge that Puskus and De Stefano were something a bit special they only achieved there greatness playing for Club Sides. While for me the level of greatness has to be judged on what they achieved at international level as well. Pele had to be amazing but he won 3 World Cups playing for a Brazil team that was full of talent; in fact they probably would have won without him. For me Zidane is the greatest player he made the beautiful game a reality, he won everything at club level, he won the World Cup and a took a team that almost never qualified without him to the final, although it ended in tradegy. While Maradona cheated his way to winning it and then was kicked out in 94 for drugs.
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How desparately tedious the 'greatest player ever' debate is. Good article though. Di Stefano is one of those names from the dim and distant (at least to me) history of football that I'm vaguely aware of without knowing anything about.
As an aside, I found it a bit depressing that you felt the need to point out that the Champions League used to be called the European Cup!
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The best player of my lifetime would have to be Zidane. However, i'm sure i'd be saying Ronaldo if he hadnt had the awful knee injuries. He was on a different level for 2 or 3 years.
I've seen Franz Beckenbauer come top of similar polls/debates such as this one, although i was never lucky enough to see him play so i couldnt judge.
Some great goalscoring stats mentioned above - the records of the likes of Puskas/Eusebio are amazing. I may be wrong but i think Gerd Mullers goalscoring stats are almost as good as these? He was surely one of the best poachers of all time? Along with Romario.
I wonder if Messi will be mentioned up there with the all time best if he contunues his current form over the next 5 years, wins a european cup or two and leads Argentina to glory in South Africa next year? He is without doubt the most exciting player i've ever seen.
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To people comparing Best to Maradona and saying that calling Maradona the best feels uneasy because of the drugs: why does everyone still think its alright to be an alcoholic, like theres something loveable about it, but take recreational drugs and its the worst think in the world.
The recent rugby episodes of Tindall and Stevens illustrates this double standard frighteningly perfectly.
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if you go on the notion of great players being ones that have won the WC and another major trophy that is completely ridicuous... for example is Juliano Belletti better than Nedved, Scholes, Figo, Cruyff, Best, Eusebio, Redondo, Bergkamp, Weah etc... I think not!
I think that winning World Player of the year is a must (for the modern generation having only started in 1991) ... but having a player not being described as a great simply because the country they play for does not have the talent to win the World Cup is Ludicrous
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Zidane, Best, Zola, now Henry? They could not even tie Maradona's shoelaces. Give me a break!
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Strong as an ox, two footed, brilliant in the air, deceptively quick, great vision, superb passer clinical finisher – I could go on: It has to be Pele.Sure the 1970 Brazil team had great individuals, Rivelino and Jairzinho especially, but I always go back to a story Bobby Moore told about that squad. A member of the Brazilian back room team told him that Pele was the best player in the squad in any position – including goalkeeper. That says it all for me.
Yes Pele never played in Europe, but that wasn’t really an option at his peak. Racism in Italy and Spain is bad enough now, can you imagine what he would have suffered? Also, the hatchet men would have ended his career early. It doesn’t bear thinking about.
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@ #55 - Cassadegas
I agree with you about modern athletes being more physically developed, athletes of old couldn't compete on the same level
fitness wise, diet and other reasons
but i think the main thing is natural human development
Look at 100 metre sprint, the record is always being broken, yes because training is becoming more advanced as is nutritional info and injury prevention but the other side of this is the humans are evolving, becoming strong, taller, faster and smarter
the entire olympics is a testament to man physically evolving
for this reason, i'd say maradonna is the best,
he is the one player in the all time best bracket that everyone agrees on (including pele) that would be able to cope physically with the modern game
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#61
I can't agree with you in principle because this whole question is one of perception. I entirely bow to your better knowledge of the South American leagues and I wouldn't pretend for a second to know anything about the strength of Brazilian domestic leagues in the 50's and 60's so if Santos were amongst the better teams in the world then that is entirely my ignorance.
But I think my point still stands because it's all about ticking the boxes. This questions isn't an exact science as which is more important, a world cup win or three european cup wins is a subjective one. At the same time it just can't be a purely subjective discussion or we'd have 150 posts and 130 different names. If it's purely down to personal opinion then as silly as they sound to me these mentions of Giggs and Zola are as valid as any.
Whether its down to the fact that Europe dominates world football so European opinions have an unfair weight advantage or perhaps its just genuine ignorance of the facts but I think the percept is, has and always probably will be that if you aspire to be considered the best then you must come and play in Europe for a time.
It's hard to see how we'd look at Messi, Ronaldo (Brazil striker) or Romario in the same way if they'd spent their career in their home country or had gone to play in an inferior league for the money.
That's not fair on Brazil players from the 50's, I completely aknowledge that but this was never going to be an entirely even handed debate was it.
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Willem Van der Ark, without a shadow of a doubt
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People forget Charlie Nicholls was a great player for arsenal and celtic. A true funisher of the ball. Ok modern but still world class. Agree?
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Tim, I also love your articles. As an Australian who came to Soccer late when in London in the 70's, I am a Georgie Best man. he was fantastic and probably the first marketing superstar of the game. From my reading of the history of the gane there have been a number of real stars. I feel from reading the statistics of the game, there are 2 men who stand out. One is Dixie Deans who no one alive today would have seen live, He must have been a scoring machine when he plyed in a much tougher and rougher day. The absolute no 1 for me ahead of Dixie Deans and Georgie Best would have to be Ferenc Puskas. When you read of his record in another tough time of life, he was an absolute star and scoring machine. Later in life he also put his football brain to Coaching / Managing and he came to Melbourne and coached a local team to the Australian title. What a great debate to start.
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#75
I agree with you about the subjectivity in this issue, but I had to make a point about your earlier comment. While nowadays you have to play in Europe to be considered, in those days you could had been the best playing in Brazil or Argentina alone.
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Charlie Nicholas? What have you taken today? The guy isn't even Arsenals best ever player.
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Any older person rufuses to name a modern player as the best (eg Zidane, Ronaldo);
Any younger person won't name an older player (as they've never seen them play)
And I thought last weeks debate was pretty heated
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For sheer entertainment genius, how can anyone overlook Francis Benali - the Todd Carty of Premiership Football! And he scored goals (once!) We all "walked in a Benali Wonderland!" and just LOVED IT!!!
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Charlie Nicholas ?!? No way ! In this company he is average. What did he win at club or international level ??
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Van Basten without any doubt. Genius!
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Sternbutfair - I can be persuaded that there might be a couple who will forever transcend time.
People like Maradona and Zidane, who possessed natural abilities that have no relation to fitness or training such as touch, technique or vision of the game definitely pose big question marks over my theory.
I suppose the only way to measure it is by seeing whether they would walk into the (alleged) best club in the world, Man U.
Would they find a space for Zidane at his peak? Almost certainly. Same probably goes for Maradona (but who would they sacrifice.....).
Unfortunately though I think the acceleration of the ability of footballers will continue. You need only look at the sheer size of defenders these days to wonder how sensible Lineker was to get out when he did!
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1.Pele
2.Maradona
3.Di Stefano
4.Cruyff
5.Zidane
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Charlie Nicholas? He's not even the best player on the Sky Sports pundit panel!
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Thanks for the always-interesting blog Tim,
As others have mentioned, the problem with this debate is that nobody can agree on how to compare players.
Do you pick: the guy with the most impressive medal collection; the best set of admiring quotes from other great players; the biggest influence on the game (as you have done) or whatever...
I like to imagine chucking them at their peak through a time machine into a modern team and seeing how they get on. This discounts a lot of the older players as they are constantly getting sent off for chopping people from behind and can't get their head around the pass-back rule.
Even more fun is chucking modern players back into the past and seeing how they cope with water-sodden balls as heavy as a brick and defenders with nicknames like 'Chopper'.
I'll let you borrow the latter fantasy the next time you see Drogba (etc.) on the verge of tears as someone nudges him on the pitch.
As a menchie for my team, there's Jimmy McGrory (who I believe has the best scoring record in British football) and Patsy Gallagher.
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Jan Molby
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#30's way off the mark. In his prime, Giggs would have strolled into the starting line ups of any of those teams. Even past his prime, three years ago, Dunga claimed Giggs would have graced a Brazil shirt, and given him real problems should he have been eligable for the Brazil squad then - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/internationals/5320010.stm.
Obviously he's not the best footballer of all time. He's in with a real shout for best British player, but, in the end, he's not up to the same level, nor has he accomplished what some of the previously mentioned players have.
One thing there is no question of, Giggs and Di Stafano are the greatest players never to have graced the world stage.
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Tim,
Great article again.
I agree that Di stefano was better than pele, but what about garrincha? Surely the mark of the greatest is their ability to single handedly tip the balance, like maradona in 86 and for napoli, or garrincha in 1962, or di stafano for madrid. How do you quantify who has had the greater impact? trophies won? Or does the individual's feeling upon witnesing a moment of magic sway you heir way?
Again, your the best blogger on the beeb by a mile. most other blogs comment sections turn into slanging matches.
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Maradona probably edges it - considering his achievements in Italy (winning the title with THAT Napoli side over THAT Milan side?)
Also, if we're mentioning players with great goalscoring stats, let's not forget Gerd Muller. Outstanding.
Duncan Edwards!
Cherno Samba?
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#54 - U13822740 -
Sorry mate, u have me confused, i have made no argument for Giggs ! ! !
Please check again and redirect your argument?!
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All this because Giggs scored yesterday, ha ha
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Scholes or Giggs?
Scholes.
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Geroge Weah, any takers for him
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Of course, there's more than one way to define 'the greatest player ever'. If as your critieria you include sportsmanship, loyalty and humility I'd make a case for Tom Finney getting at least a mention. If you asked me to name the one player who gave me more pleasure to watch than any other I'd have to say the late Robin Friday. But I couldn't let this debate pass without a mention for the one player I saw who was able to stop Pele leaving his mark in a game without his doing it illegally. Bobby Moore was without doubt the finest defender I ever saw. I'll always remember Jimmy Greaves telling of after a training session when he quizzed Moore, always last in sprints, about how he kept up with quick players. Moore's reply:
"First 10 yards are in your head".
Now there was a great player.
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Anyway Ian Rush one of the greats never to play on world stage
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Tim Vickery congratulations on your attempts to crash the BBC ancient servers with this article.All the people calling names like Giggs,Scholes etc are obviously joking or deluded.
I always thought whatever Di Stefano did at Real Kubala did at Barcelona in spades.I belived he is as great as Di Stefano but somehow is always overlooked.He was actually crowned the club's greatest player in Barca centenary in 1999!Camp Nou was actually increased in capacity because of people who wanted to see Ladislao Kubala.I think its time we recognised this great footballer!
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Good blog, sparks great debate.
Maradona for me was probably the player I most associate with the greatest ever tag.
But that has a lot to do with nostalgia, I was 13-20 when he was in his heyday.
Zidane was superb, his combination of touch, balance, strength and vision, put him head and shoulders above the rest of his generation.
I think in these debates we tend to ignore a lot of Italians I have witnessed some sublime skill from Baggio, Zola, Del Piero, Roberto Mancini etc, not to mention those less spectacular like Baresi.
I would urge those younger readers to search for a Ryan Giggs highlight reel online, to see the skills that make Ronaldo (Cristiano) and Roooney look pedestrian. Giggs was once described by Del Piero as being 'beautiful' and 'his football makes me cry'. In Europe he is regarded much higher than any other british player of the last 30 years.
The best individual one-match performance I ever saw at first hand was by Ruud Gullit, when he first went to Chelsea. He seemed to have so much more time on the ball than anyone else and I was surprised at how big and powerful he was. His passes with either foot were superb. He looked like a man joining in a 12 year-olds game.
But who was the best ever?
Pele was undoubtedly a player of great skill whose career spanned a golden age of football, but he was surrounded by other great players so he doesn't make my top three. Brazil would have been successful without him.
For pure skill, mesmeric talent and god given ability I have to stick with Maradona.
For influence and all round ability I would be stuck between Beckenbauer and Zidane.
Honourable mentions for Charlton and Cruyff.
I cannot comment on Di Stefano as I have not seen enough footage of him, his lack of international success would seem to to advocate against him, strike or not. However, I will concede that if he was as you claim the heartbeat of the first great team of modern European club football he certainly is worthy of consideration.
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Just as Tevez saved West Ham from relegation in 2006/2007, Maradona in his prime would have taken them to a top 4 finish or even the title. No doubt about it.
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Cassadega wrote:
I genuinely do not believe that players of 40-50 years ago would look half as good in the modern era.
==============================
I am not about to jump on any bandwagon
It is not all about the physical improvements. it is about a players ingenuity, intelligence and creativity (not only taking on but defending and keeping using effective and technically superior methods). this is what zidane, platini, baggio, cruyff, maldini, maradona, pele, beckenbauer, charlton, ronaldo9 and others had in abundance. it is also the effect a player has on the image and perception of the game, players such as de stefano, best, baggio, maradona and dare i say it beckham, cristiano ronaldo, henry.
then there is the effect a player has on the formation of the game itself. makelele has his own position in the eyes of most fans. others such as maldini, baresi, cafu, carlos alberto, pirlo and others have proven the importance of specific roles in specific formations.
there is also the staistical argument (which mainly favours goalscorers but also keepers, is probably used by most simple minded people), muller, puskas, batistuta, van nistelrooy, shearer, vieri, ronaldo9, law etc.
then there are commited and dedicated footballers who belong to 1 team, giggs, maldini, costacurta, scholes, keane, henry, totti, zanetti, hierro, raul, xavi, best, charlton and others.
the bes player is probably in there. my all time best and favourite is maldini.
in a fantasy team i would have zidane, ronaldo9, maradona, pele, baggio, cruyff and other superstars but that does not do justice to the argument.
this argument bores me to death. stop raising the issue. right now for me messi is the best but whocares if ronaldo, gerrard, fabregas, rooney, lampard, drogba, etoo, xavi, delpiero, pato, kaka, pirlo, ibrahimovic, maicon, rooney, torres, robinho etc are rated higher or lower (it is all academic).
STOP RAISING THIS ISSUE!
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Best player ever? Boring subject because how do you judge it?
Every decade the landscape of football is different, so therefore not easy to compare.
Every league that a player is playing in is different, so how do you compare?
Which is the most important position? Why fo the defensive greats never get mentioned?
Do number of goals scored mean a player is great? Not necesserally.
Influence on a match/the general way the sport is going, is that greater than footballing skill?
There are way too many variables, so lets stop calling people stupid and an idiot for having a differnet opinion.
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#101
I agree that Maradona is the greatest, but what makes you think he could do all that for West Ham when he couldn't do it for Barcelona?
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to post 42
"One day a player will come along, they will win the World Cup more than once, dominate European club football, invent a new style of football that all teams will adopt and on top of that this person willl be kind to his mother and donate half his wages to charity. Until then I think you?ll struggle to convince me that any one man can fight off all challengers in this argument."
--------------------------------------------
some would argue that both pele and the brazilian ronaldo have achieved that.
For me there are a few names that dont get mentioned enough when discusing all time greats.
Gerd Muller was one of the great forwards (his world cup scoring record speaks for its self.)
Dino Zoff : 1142 mins without conceding in internationals.
George Banks: That save from pele still gives me goose bumps
Beckenbauer (sp) and moore deserve a mention.
and eusebio must be up there too.
As for more modern players zidane and ronaldo stick out for me as well as raul, defensively the italian combination of buffon, (not sure on right back) nesta canavaro and maldini are up there as well.
As far as the GOAT goes i dont think it is possible to choose as there are just too many variables and too many great players as well - im not even sure its possible to choose the greatest of a generation.
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Post 103 - with that in mind, maybe it's best to judge it purely on god given ability - and that will always be Maradona.
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Remember a show, about a decade ago on Sky Sports, a panel of experts (the only one I remember was Jackie Charlton) attempted to compose the greatest team of all time, 1 to 11...
All I remember was Chalrton pushing for Di Stefano and Puskas up front, but the panel chose Pele and Van Basten and one Tomas Brolin actually got a mention, to great laughter.
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I wish people would not argue about the greatest player in the world ever. They cannot be compared.
Players in the day of di Stefano and Puskas were not as fit, they didnt have the diet, the tactics, the technology and training techniques of modern day players.
Every player in the top european leagues is now as fit as can be, they train 4/5 days a week. They are tactically aware and teams double up against class players such as Cristiano Ronaldo and Deco to name just a few. This shows that modern day greats find it harder to show that they are great because of man marking and tactics to stop them playing. Even in the days of Maradona this didnt happen.
There are many players who over time have changed football and shown they are dazzling players. Maradona has to be up there for dragging a mediocre team to the World Cup. Pele played in a magnificent team but was still unbelievable, but would Pele score those goals in the world cup against fit strong defenders of the modern day such as Cannavaro for example. Cruyff was a great player, but it was his fault Holland didnt win that world cup, he ordered the keeper to be changed before the match because they had a fall out.
For me you have to look at how players were affected by the team around them, the opposition they played against, which includes the era. I think if you put the finishing of Ronaldo (brazilian) in the days of Pele he would have scored just as many, but if you put Pele in the 1990s would he have scored as many as Ronaldo. It is impossible to say.
With the old greats in the modern day with the training and the diet they may have been better, but they certainly wouldnt have shone through in the modern day as the players in competition are alot better than in their day.
Taking all this into consideration, there are several great players in my opinion, not just one.
Giggs- achieved so much in the modern day, still going strong and is the optimum pro.
Ronaldo- top scorer in world cups, says it all. Won lots as a player as well. The hattrick at Old Trafford was incredible.
Pele- true great
Maradona- one man team
It has to be decided upon achievements and influence on the team. And these four certainly had that.
If the player was decided upon influence on football then David Beckham is top of that. He has changed the game forever, sometimes not for the better. He is a pioneer of football.
And if you go for your favourite player, then David Hirst from the 1990s Sheffield Wednesday team! pure power and pace!! legend.
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Greatest ever.
Michael Cove from Swansea.
He retired aged NINE when Contana retired.
He said if Cantona can retire so am I so the world lost the greatest footballer ever at the age of NINE Michael Cove.
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Great Blog Tim,
Every generation will throw up its favourites.
For me, Van Basten was the complete striker and would easily eclipse the ludicrous offer for Kaka if available now.
Platini's drive and influence on a team, be it Juve or France, was immense.
Pele's record speaks for itself and he remains football's greatest ambassador.
However Maradona remains the ultimate one man team. At his peak, he was unstoppable. Forget the "hand of God" and just enjoy the amazing skills this man had.
As regards our domestic game, Dixie Dean's record will never be taken and can never be diminuished.
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Very difficult one to call and I'm not going to repeat the names already mentioned.
Being a Barcelona fan, two obvious choices are already mentioned in the posts above, but although I am too young to have seen him play, but my Spanish grandfather once told me there was no player greater than Kubala in his prime, not even Di Stefano or Puskas and seeing that he hasn't had a mention.....
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I have recently come to the controversial conclusion that Lionel Messi is quite likely to be the greatest player who has ever lived.
Obviously it is far too early to make a very convincing argument for him. But I should think that more and more people will be converted over the next decade or so.
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This is a question that many people have different views of i hear from my brothers and father that johan cruiff was an amazing player along with the other greats such as maradona, best and eusabio.
The greatest footballer of my generation has got to be one of gallaticos, either zidane or figo, ronaldo at the height of his career was clearly the best in world with no-one else really near him in the posistion, Henry when he was performing for arsenal was unstoppable all great players make their stand in their eras but for me it has to be david beckham (yes everyone knows him ffor his fame and celeb appeal but he is the main reason the english national team has actually made a stand over the last years he single handedly got the game against greece (WC Qualifier) by the scruff of the neck and dragged england through that, time after time again we have needed his dead ball kicks to get us through stages of major championships.
Also i ask the question why is it always the players that get all the praise and never the managers yet when things go bad the managers are instantly replaced espcially more and more with tony adams exit today, yes they guy is not manager material but it dont help to have sold his most influential players.
so guys who is the greatest manager of all time?
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Messi has all the physical and tactical attributes of the modern player. This combined with his undoubted world class skill, may indeed make him a future contender.
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magicutd90 - Beckham? - You're a braver man than me.
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Good post #100, enjoyed it.
But I have to strongly disagree about Giggs being regarded much higher than Scholes - Who did the Real Madrid squad ask David Beckham about when he signed? Add in Lippi, Nedved, Davids, and Keane too.
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Best and greatness are linked but separate. You can argue many boxers were better than Ali but he is easily the greatest.
Indeed it is probably easier to establish greatness than best which gets very subjective and open to era adjustments. Arguably greatness has a popularity factor in it hence Maradona and Pele probably scrap it out.
Even in the 70s di Stefano was little more than a name on a lot of team and goal sheets for me - I used to ask who he was of people as his name came up so often. People did not spend their time waxing on his greatness unlike say Pele. Like Pele with Brazil he was surrounded by a superlative cast only a super national or fascist govt backed team like Real Madrid could be. Maradona was not.
Over a career if one is entirely objective Cruyff, Beckenbauer and Platini come into it as much for what they went on to do. Although none were really quite good enough as players to challenge the 2 South Americans they have gone on beyond just being a celebrity ex player.
I tend to favour Maradona partly because for all his personal failings he is not quite so craven off the field as a couple of others in terms of links and pathetic whimpered apologism and dis-association with repressive and brutal govts you played for. He never uses the di Stefano "I didn't know about politics" to excuse his early years for Junta led Argentina. Pele is I understand similarly tainted in Brazil as di Stefano in Spain.
On the field anyone can argue anyone they choose for me. It's all about PoV but overall greatness is about being more than a play thing of a murderous govt.
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Tim,
How old are you and how many matches have you seen Di Stefano play in?
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Pele and these are my reasons why.
longevity - Pele was at the top of the game for over a decade, from the age of 17 to 30, where's the likes of Maradona, Best and Cruyff were only on top for about 4 to 5 years.
Ability - Pele is one of the most complete players ever. Where's Maradona was 1 footed, Pele could shoot and dribble with both feet, was unquestionably one of the greatest headers of the ball, could defend, was a great playmaker and was one of the most prolific goal scorers in history.
Athleticism - Pele was voted ahead of Ali, Jesse Owen and Carl Lewis as the greatest athlete of the 20th century, pretty much says it all.
Impact - Pele was the first true global football star, a house hold name even in countries where football was not the national sport; his name and image have promoted the game around the world more than any other player.
Success - Pele has won more honors, awards and scored more goals than any other player in history.
Of course, people will always pick their greatest based on emotion and loyalty ( I'd actually pick Maradona myself because he was the best player from the generation I grow up in) but the facts speak for themselves and point to one man, rightly called the king.
Malcolm Allison: ' How do you spell "Pele" ? ' Paddy Crerand: ' Easy: G - O - D.'
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people have to remember that when comparing the greatest, you have to forget how they would compare today if they played 10, 20, 60 years ago, there is no comparison, the fitness levels just dont compare. you have to compare on their impact to football in that era, its nothing to do with them playing today. There was the same amount of teams playing and they same amount of players trying to make it, so if they were head and shoulders above back then, they would be now, with the extra fitness levels players now have.
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The greatest of his era was without doubt Sir Stanley Mattews, for sheer grace and artistry when in procession of the ball it was beautiful to watch and all this whilst playing in boots that were like wearing blocks of concrete, and a sportsman to go with it, he played the game.
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112. At 12:04pm on 09 Feb 2009, MorningJean wrote:
I have recently come to the controversial conclusion that Lionel Messi is quite likely to be the greatest player who has ever lived.
Obviously it is far too early to make a very convincing argument for him. But I should think that more and more people will be converted over the next decade or so.
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The problen with this view is that it assumestoo much, you assume he wont have a bad injury (like ronaldo9's knee) you assume he will continue to improve, you assume off field anticts wont damage his on field performance.
And while all of these might never happen they just as easily might and his legend could just be another of great unfulfilled potential. (I hope not and i hope in 15 yearstime we will be raving about him as won of the all time greats - but to say now he deffinatly will be is very short sighted).
To Phil, how much extra do you think ronaldo would have achieved if it wasnt for the horrific knee injury he suffered at inter?
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They say one man cannot make a team but in the case of Maradona he certainly did.
Barcelona, Napoli and the World Cup with Argentina single handed.
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A good blog Tim, but I'm not entirely convinced by the argument.
Agreed, Di Stefano was a great ambassador for the game of football and undoubtedly helped the European and South American leagues.
I'm not sure why anyone would think that he helped Spain's transition into democracy though. I'm pretty sure that Franco died in the 70's, didn't he? That was well past the Di Stefano era. I'd be interested in hearing more about that, if it's true!
I'd say that if anyone deserves that kind of accolade, it would be another undisputed great but one who played for Real Madrid's great rivals Barcelona... Johann Cruyff. He made a point of not signing for Real Madrid because of their ties with Franco and proceeded to torment the dictator's team with sparkling displays on the field... particularly at the Bernabeu.
I feel that there is, of course, another player who was better (and more tragic) than any of those mentioned so far.
One of the comments posted asks, in reference to Pele, 'who else won two World Cups?' One, simple answer is Garrincha.
Without Garrincha it is arguable that Pele may have won NO World Cups. When Pele and Garrincha played together for Brazil they NEVER lost a match. Garrincha's story ended in sadness and real human tragedy. He bacame an alcoholic and he was illiterate, which left him susceptible to dishonest club owners. Sometimes the would give him blank sheets of paper to sign, telling him it was a contract.
The debate will go on, no doubt, but for me it's Mane Garrincha all the way!
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You could make a case for Puskas who looked svelte compared to Maradona.Phenomel record for Real and Hungary and a member of the Magical Magyar Hungarian team that tore England to bits at Wembley.I stillremember his drag back that flummoxed Billy Wright.He had to pay to get back into the stadium as i heard.
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was not just ronaldo's knee that stopped him being classed amongst the greatest, it was ronaldo himself, even without the injury it would be hard to gauge as he was always going to harm his career with his off field antics
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#118
Tim,
How old are you and how many matches have you seen Di Stefano play in?
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Assuming you're suggesting you need to see a player play to go on about how good they are, are we all going to just stop saying how great Zidane was in 60 years?
I can't stand it when people imply that if you didn't see someone play in person or if you weren't alive during a certain period then you can't truly understand it!
I believe football is a game that lends itself to quality writing and great debate more than any other sport because it's so inherently intertwined with our culture and lives. To say whole swathes of people can't discuss whole swathes of football history because of their age/location is nonsense.
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Hi Tim, I always look forward to reading your blog, and this is my first comment. I have a question for you- had the tragic Munich tragedy not happened, would Real Madrid have dominated Europe in the way they did? Would the Busby babes with players such as the great Duncan Edwards been able to dominate Europe and threat Real Madrid?
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#104
I said Maradona in his prime. At Barcelona he was not the Maradona of 86-90.
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By the way, Tim you have the best job in the world! I love South America and its football and desperately want to visit again!
Need any extra staff? ;-)
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Who is the greatest player you have ever seen live in terms of presence? The fist match I ever saw was United v Arsenal at Old Trafford and to this day I have never seen a player with an aura around him like that. I am not saying Eric is the greatest, I am just commenting on aura.
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More appropriate to argue the best team ever:
Yashin
Carlos Alberto, Beckenbauer, Baresi, Maldini
Maradona, M Laudrup, Zidane, Di Stefano
Pele Puskas
Sub:
Buffoon
Moore
Cafu
Platini
Cruijff
Best
Charlton
M Laudrup for Platini was the one i thought about the most. Everyone else was pretty much certain.
You could pretty much replace Zidane with Cruijff or Platini and it wouldnt change the team much.
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99. At 11:49am on 09 Feb 2009, redandblackT1899?- wrote:
Tim Vickery congratulations on your attempts to crash the BBC ancient servers with this article.All the people calling names like Giggs,Scholes etc are obviously joking or deluded.
I always thought whatever Di Stefano did at Real Kubala did at Barcelona in spades.I belived he is as great as Di Stefano but somehow is always overlooked.He was actually crowned the club's greatest player in Barca centenary in 1999!Camp Nou was actually increased in capacity because of people who wanted to see Ladislao Kubala.I think its time we recognised this great footballer!
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111. At 12:03pm on 09 Feb 2009, kimb1975 wrote:
Very difficult one to call and I'm not going to repeat the names already mentioned.
Being a Barcelona fan, two obvious choices are already mentioned in the posts above, but although I am too young to have seen him play, but my Spanish grandfather once told me there was no player greater than Kubala in his prime, not even Di Stefano or Puskas and seeing that he hasn't had a mention.....
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Thanks mate.His always overlooked for some reason i cant fathom
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Going away on a bit of a Tangent form this Argument, my Best Ever 11 would be;
GK – Lev Yashin
CB – Franco Baresi
CB – Bobby Moore
CB – Ruud Krol
DMF/CMF – Franz Beckenbauer
DMF/CMF – Frank Rijkaard
LMF/RMF – George Best
LMF/RMF – Johan Cruyff
AMF – Bobby Charlton
FW – Diego Maradonna
FW – Pele
Subs
Peter Schmeichel
Daniel Passarella
Ruud Gullit
Michel Platini
Zico
Stanley Matthews
Ferenc Puskas
Eusebio
Alfredo Di Sefano
Marco Van Basten
Hristo Stoichkov
Eric Cantona
WORLD BEATERS ! ! ! Pure and Simple
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Too young to have seen Di Stefano and Pele. Maradonna for me is the greatest of all time from the footage I have seen. In my era I would have to say Ronaldo(Brazilian) was the best footballer i have ever seen. Unstopable when he was in his early 20's World player of the year 3 times never will it be done again. To think the portuguese Ronaldo is compared to the original is a joke. In my eyes the most overrated player in the world. How he beat Messi and Torres for World player of the year is a scam. 40 goals against week opposition fare play Ronaldo... how about playing in a big match?? You have been found out this season
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#28 Riceyyy
If we're talking goals per game you need to consider Gerd Mueller. Generally ignored because of his nationality, his goal scoring record is second to none:
68 goals in 62 games for West Germany
398 goals in 453 games for Bayern Munich
Remember that this was in a much more recent period (the 70's) when football was very different to the 30's and 40's.
He is the best goalscorer ever and in my opinion his record will never be bettered.
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Kubala is missed out because he did not play for Hungary in 54 or Spain in 62. Nor did he win the European Cup, or even make 30 international games. His goals per game record at club football was about 0.75 which is pretty decent for the time - though not exceptional.
A good player but hardly a candidate for GOAT. (Though if he had played in 54, maybe his name - Laszlo Stecz - would be as formidable as Puskas or Pele.)
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I have a suggestion on how to decide the debate.
We simply ask Sir Bobby Charlton !
I for one (and even as a Man City fan) would accept his decision without question.
He was a world class player and is a man of intelligence and integrity. He is also of an age where he has more chance than most of us of seeing/experiencing some of the players from pevious generations, plus witnessing the more recent players like Maradonna and Zidane.
Only problem is he would not nominate himself...........
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I agree that Gerd Muller's scoring record is amazing. He had a '30s to '50s scoring record in a period *AFTER* the game became defensive.
However, was his all-round play and contribution to his teams so phenomenal? Was his footballing skill comparable to Maradona's or Cruyff's? I suspect not.
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It's a difficult one to argue this, as I know everyone has unique criteria for who the greatest is, and that in itself is a vague question/answer.
I've already said that I think Garrincha was one of the best, but that was in response to questions surrounding Pele.
It would be a brave and foolish person to say that Pele wasn't one of the best ever, but even great players can't function without a team to help them.
Occasionally I wonder that more defenders aren't considered in the debate. Sure, strikers and midfielders are the ones who are noticed as they grab the goals and take the glory. But how many of those attacking players would be as great as they are without the stoppers behind them?
I think that Paolo Maldini doesn't get as much credit as he should. What is he now? 41, 42? Still playing at the highest level. More games for Milan than anyone else. No-one has seriously challenged him for the left-back position for over 20 years. That's consitency if nothing else.
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As many people have suggested, comparisons across the eras are pretty much impossible. The best you can do is compare within a given era.
Going on what I have personally witnessed, either on TV or in stadiums, and within my lifetime, it would go like this:
1970s: Cruyff edges Beckenbauer
1980s: Maradona followed by Platini
1990s: Van Basten ahead of Romario and Zidane
2000s: Zidane.
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It's so difficult that it's almost impossible to comment on the best player ever. It can really only ever be opinion, as some people will (obviously) prefer one player over another, and indeed be biased towards players in certain positions.
I couldn't understand how anybody could have argued against Cristiano Ronaldo (i'm a qpr fan by the way, not a man utd supporter) winning the world player of the year title for 2008. That was until I started watching Spanish football on sky recently, and in particular Barcelona. If week in, week out you only watch English football, you're more likely to be familiar with English football and if somebody has been as outstanding as Ronaldo was, will probably deem him to be the best player in the world. If you don't watch any English football but instead watch Spanish football every week, you may well be inclined to decide that Lionel Messi is the best player in the world.
I wonder how many people who decide that Pele was/is the greatest player ever watched Brazilian football on a regular basis and judged him on that rather than his world cup exploits. Also, stats may not tell the whole truth either. Somebody may score plenty of goals in a given Championship/League, but the opposition may not be as strong in that division/country as in another for example.
It's extremely difficult, and I find myself at the moment favouring Messi as the best player around. As far as best player ever goes, it's hard to imagine anybody ever playing as well as Ronaldinho did a few seasons ago for Barca, or Zidane while at Real Madrid (& Juventus). That, however, is not to say that Pele or Maradona (for example) did not.
Perhaps I should stick with Rodney Marsh, Stan Bowles or Marc Bircham?
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you got to pick a team of greats not just an individul, because its always going to be a goal scorer ! pick the best 11 players and 3 subs. 4-4-2 formaton simple.... i wish it was !
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I remember Pele saying,years ago, that Maradona wasnt even the greatest Argentine footballer let alone the G.O.A.T!I think he was talking about Di Stefano the blond arrow
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Cyborgia,
The best player and the best all round player are two very different arguments.
For me, Gerd Mueller would be the first name on any team sheet because he simply scores the most goals and that wins games and championships.
He certainly isn't the best all round player, but as a striker there isn't anyone even close to him. His record speaks louder than any other.
I wouldn't want 11 all round players in a team, I'd want the best for each position; and for his position he's the best.
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Great article Phil - and a really good shout out about Di Stefano.
Sadly this "comments" section will rapidly turn into what you have said in your first paragraph exactly what you don't like about the whole "who is the best" debate... a load of idiots now arguing who their favourite player is... the under 40's usually say Maradona, the over 40's usually Pele... and then you get the usual "club loyal" mentalists that suggest the odd random like Best, Dalglish, Matthews, etc
I am 32 and was lucky enough to watch Maradona at the peak of his powers both on TV and in the flesh... sadly other than the footage of Pele i have seen nothing ... although unlike lots of people i am happy to bow to the opinion of the majority of people who have seen both that say Pele was better.... again sadly i have never watched Di Stefano eiter - but you cannot argue with the effect the guy had on football..
to other readers ... if all you can do is comment "Zidane/Cruyff/Pele/Eusebio/Efan Ekoku is the best ever" or whoever ... then please don't ... it is boring... i don't run this blog but would like only people who a) know about football and b) seen the players they are talking about to comment... it makes it a better read for everyone!..
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Everyone talks about all these Great players..
Maradona
Pele
Cruyff
Di Stefano
Puskas
Charlton
Best
But from what I have heard from older generation than I [i am 50 btw] talk about Duncan Edwards.. and how he would of eclipsed all of these GREATS..?
What is the general feeling on Duncan Edwards who 'Had it All' .. Power, Two footed player, Great balance, great pace for a big lad, could tackle, dribble... !!
A lot of those Great could only kick with one foot.. couldn't tackle etc.. So I know its a big 'IF' because the Great Duncan Edwards never got the chance to show what a Fantastic player he was 'at 19'..!!
Regards,
Tom.
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Tim
Maybe nostalgia creeps in a little but it's hard to argue. Especially for anybody who witnessed the complete demolition of Eintracht Frankfurt. It was the original "if it was a boxing match it would have been stopped" type of game. The reason for that was the complete mastery, the originality, the leadership of Di Stefano. I remember watching mesmorised-it was a different game to that which I watched every Saturday here, Di Stefano was from a different planet. Oh and he was a great man with modesty a bit like Sir Bobby Charlron/Sir Tom Finney. Guess it was a different time with different values.
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You're right, it is a big if.
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Cantona? Dont' make me laugh.
Dalglish and Barnes would get in any eleven ahead of him
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What a huge can'o'worms this article has opend up - good job Tim!
How do you define a great player? Most goals, most trophies, most appearances in big tournaments? Or something more intangible - best performances for club/country, influence or impact? Do you have to take something away from someone because of their personal (or their country's political) choices?
And then how do you pick out 'the greatest'?
The debate is not one that's about to be quickly and satisfactorily answered - simply put, it's far too subjective
For that reason it's disappointing to see so many people slating other people's choices, as any pick can be validated
Why not pick Best, Charlton or Giggs? Yes, you may be Man Utd biased, but if you've seen those players most often then at least you have some evidence for your choice!
It's one of the reasons Best ranks so highly in the UK, but not elsewhere - a rare talent with six magnificent seasons of being pretty much the best individual player in the league here, but with just two memorable euro campaigns and nothing to speak of internationally
Charlton was a different breed - a fantastic team player who made everything else around him work well. Part of 3 different 'teams' at Utd and always key, 20 years at the absolute top of the game. Perfect gentleman. (Plus a World Cup winner to boot)
As for Giggs, see above comments, include plenty of titles (both club and individual) and you can see that if he had chosen England instead of Wales his place here might be undisputed. Matthews and Finney can be happily mentioned, but Giggs can't? Rose-tinted posterity, and frankly a shame that we can't credit a great the way we should be able to
Different reasons for 'greatness'
(I'm not putting the case forward for these three as the greatest ever by the way!)
All are good reasons, and could make that player the 'greatest' for you. Just as easily as drugs, drink, cheating or political issues could tarnish an otherwise great player in your eyes.
The key thing though is that your greatest player will usually be the one who has made you stand up and lean forward, tingling with anticipation of what they'll do next, and left you open-mouthed with amazement at that moment of genius most often (possibly why there is so little mention of Maldini, Beckenbauer... what about Matthaus??... players who play too far back to get all the credit)
Your view should be biased! As succintly put in comment 4, surely the greatest of anything should be the 'one that has affected you most'
So let's all hear each other's greats, perhaps look up some video highlights, and share in the joy that the beautiful game brings
(Rather than just say 'It's Pele,' or 'It's Maradona, or worse 'your choice is rubbish'!)
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Interesting approach boomshakalak. What the blog actually says is that Tim Vickery is not keen on 'the aggressive tone usually employed in the debate.'
How amusing then that you should employ an aggressive attitude to agree with Tim!
'A load of idiots' eh? What's the point of commenting on a blog if you don't express an opinion?
There's no harm in having a favourite player and arguing the case for them. That's healthy and good fun. It's when you begin to criticise others for expressing their views that it becomes pointless.
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134 - Samwell2804
Nice attempt to make a best ever team... there would be lots of older people that would have lots of other players on the list though - such as Garrincha of Brazil and about 1000 other names before Eric Cantona would be mentioned.
I am not a Cantona hater... and think he was a great player who had a great effect on a great team..... but to be considered as a top 20 player of all time would stretch alot of peoples imaginations....
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Red Tom
It's really difficult arguing about Big Duncan because of his age at death. His potential cannot be denied-I watched him only once unfortunately-at Bolton. I was six years old but still remember him well. He had the size of a Collosus but the feet of a ballerina. Oh and his left foot was no different to his right. I just remember looking at hios legs and thinking how big they were.
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The best ever footballer, in my opinion, was Garrincha. There has not been any better. He was simply, the very best..
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Barnes..............LOL.:-)
He lived off that ONE MOVE against Brazil All those Years ago... Rubbish for England after that..!
Do we include Birtles then....!! :P
Dalglish was a great player but don't Please put Barnes as a great lol.
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I just received an e-mail reprimanding me for not replying to the comments - perfect alibi - i was sleeping while this debate was raging, and it all seems to have been going well without me.
The slanging match aspect of the debate is my fault for introducing the question of the greatest of all time - the point of the piece was more on Di Stefano as the most influential - though Gerson, the brain of Pele's 1970 side, is an advocate of Di Stefano.
Nice to see mentions of Kubala - there was a story about him I liked a few years ago when he was coaching Paraguay in the 1995 Copa America. They turned up for a training session, only to find that the stadium was closed. No problem, said Kubala. he blocked off the road outside the ground and they had a training session there, coats on the floor style.
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For me i have to say its Feranc Puskas, been a massive fan for years and what he did for hungary was unbelievable.
Answering Chelsea saffer, not only Pele has won the world cup twice! What about Cafu, Ronaldo etc! Not exactly proof they are the best players ever!
If u are looking domestically i would have to say Brian Clough, what a goal scoring record that man had!
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Everyone is going to have a different opinion but I'v based mine on medals won, talent and era.
1- Maradona
2- Zidane
3- Ronaldo (9)
4- Pele
5- Maldini
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for anyone who doubts the class of giggs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEAouJwTYlU
he really is a special player, with pace, skill, power, a great work ethic, composure, but above all he is the model profesional and role model.
A survay of premiership managers a few years ago asked if you could have any player from the premiership who would it be and apparently they all answered with one name - Ryan Giggs.
Add to that del pieros comments on the man and the fact he has won every club honour there is to win and you cant deny he is a true great.
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Tim...be interested in your views on this but whilst the greatest player debate seems to be based on personal opinion...either live experience or on reputation it always focuses on a core clutch of names....Maradona, Pele, Di Stefano, Puskas, Cryuff, Beckenbauer etc etc
One player who seems to have been forgotten or never mentioned is LADISLAO KUBALA....may be wrong but Di Stefano himself said he thought Kubala was better than Pele.
Was voted by Barca fans as the clubs greatest ever player and scored 260 goals in 330 odd appearances.
Am not saying he is the greatest of all time but very curious as to why i never hear his name even mentioned in these debates
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Great response reddevilsadvocate09!
However, if my greatest player choice was based on the one that left me 'tingling' and wanting to see more, then I'd have to pick Georgi Kinkladze!
Most electrifying player I've ever seen live.
Judging by your name, I'm guessing that wouldn't be a popular choice for you though!
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Titus Bramble for me.
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152 - Monty Malcy
cheers for the comment... Assuming you are into football...which i guess you are... I am sure you will identify this as possibly the most gone over territory ever... and all i am trying to say is that i would love it if the comment on here was from people who watched great players - rather than those who want to comment about them with no knowledge... the number of times i have heard 15-20 year old Man U fans say "Christiano Ronaldo is the best ever" or 20-30 year olds say "Maradona was better than Pele".. is quite alot... and it carries about zero credibility... as unless the said 15-20 year old has seen all the players it is hard for him to express any real opinion on where he ranks in an all-time list... so rather than wade through 150+ zero impact comments - i think it would be nice for people to only have to read circa 20 good, sensible comments from people that know what they are talking about...
i guess it is an aggressive approach, and sorry for any offence caused - but it is aggressive in the "please don't respond with the usual opinons" rather than aggressive against the players being debated (which i think Tim meant) ... i.e. people dismissing great players achievements or talking them down...
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Lots of comments that seem to be about people's favourite player, rather than the best, or most influential......my favourite player was/is Zico. Fantastic skill, brilliant to watch.
However, the best...no. Hard to pick from De Stefano, Pele or Puskas in my opinion. From the footage that I have seen, I think if pushed it would have to be Pele.
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C'mon people, Pele won three World Cup's and as the the only man to have done so. Plenty have won it twice - Cafu and Ronaldo, most recently.
Oh, to have seen a Romario - Ronaldo partnership at a World Cup. Should have happened at least once, maybe four times. Shame.
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Fair enough boomshakaklak!
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# 4 IS SPOT ON ! Pele and Maradona were obviously great but for me to label one of them the best that has ever played would be wrong, i'm 18 the best players i have ever witnessed are: Messi, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo ( both of them), cannavaro, zidane and Oliver Khan.
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Hilary, its not just world cups , Pele was then in the Greatest National team !
It is also down to all other aspects that make him Great.. His Skills.. what he achieved at club level too..!
Can not argue with his International record. ;-)
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Ok you might laugh at Barnes, but he was one of the best to ever play for Liverpool only behind Dalglish. That makes him a great.
And remind me what Cantona ever did for France?
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How he beat Messi and Torres for World player of the year is a scam. 40 goals against week opposition fare play Ronaldo... how about playing in a big match?? You have been found out this season
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Not having that I'm afraid. Messi is the best, but he missed too much of last season to stake a serious clame. Torres? Take it you're a Liverpool fan. I bet you think that United are a one man team when it suits you too.
Ronaldo scored against every team apart from City and Barca last season, including in the Champions League final. Reckon there are some 'big' games somehwere in there.
Anyway, great article. Far too young to have seen much of him but it's clear that those who saw him rate him as highly as anyone.
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Monty - well he's not my greatest, for the reason you suggest!
However, a good personal pick and a Prem legend in talent terms (can I mention Le Tiss here too?)
I love to see a few names like that come up, people can go out and have a look at highlights if they've never seen or heard of that player before and maybe learn something new about the game
This debate may be over-covered territory, but where it introduces people to the finest parts of the game it can never be a bad thing
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Exactly 164, i see what you mean. I will only judge on the players I have had the pleasure of watching myself, and as I haven't seen much of the aforementioned Pele, Puskas, Maradona I can't really say who was the best ever.
The most gifted player I have ever seen personally, though, is Zidane.
So until I watch reels of footage of Best et al, i'll go with him...
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170. At 1:28pm on 09 Feb 2009, djconrad99 wrote:
Ok you might laugh at Barnes, but he was one of the best to ever play for Liverpool only behind Dalglish. That makes him a great.
And remind me what Cantona ever did for France?
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That is not cantonas fault though, he never got the chance. He was frozen out by the management structure - in the same way david ginola was. Anyone who knows anything about football knows that.
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I can't believe no-one has yet mentioned Jimmy Johnstone as one of the greatest.
Di Stefano himself rated johnstone as one of the best ever.
Fabulous player. European cup, european cup runner up, many league titles and trophies.
Ingenuity, skill, flair and an entertainer. we can all have opinions as who is the best but jinky is among them.
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As ever defenders get over looked for the impact they've had on the game, so to throw mine into the hat - Bobby Moore?
Out of the Pele/Maradonna argument, Maradonna wins in my opinion.
Best modern footballer without a doubt Zidane, with honourable mentions to Maldini and a name that hasn't shown up - Cantona - probably the most influential player in the success of the Premier League?
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Or as is the case, Cantona is getting a mention!
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#146 Boomshakalak.
Your comment made me laugh with how you contradicted yourself. You say you have seen nothing of Pele but are happy to accept that he is the best player ever and then go on to slate people that comment on players that they have never seen.
You then also say to people not to bother commenting if the feel a player is the best ever (including Pele in the little list you made), and that its boring, so why are you commenting?
In my opinion, of someone is of an age to have only base their opinion on the players of the last 10 years, then why shouldn't they feel that that player is the greatest ever, what evidence to they have to be shown otherwise?
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Contana Turned Manchester United's fortunes on its head the season he transferred from Leeds.. 1992.
The guy IS a Legend at OT and the Rest has they say is History.. What have Manchester United gone on to do since..!! Erm say no more.
But this debate is about the Greats.. Cantona would not be in the top ten of All Time but he is still a Great in lots of minds.
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I dont get people saying that you cant say a player is the greatest ever just because you were too young to have seen him play
By that reckoning that would make George W Bush the greatest ever US President for a lot of you!
What about video footage, record, reputation, trophies, historic impact on the game
you dont need to have seen a player live to realise his potential importance and even greatness
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How about an XI to try and include the all time greats. Even that is not easy!
Yashin
Maldini
Moore
Beckenbaur
Carlos Alberto
Zidane
Platini
Cruyff
Pele
Maradona
Di Stefano
Subs:
Banks
Edwards
Robero Carlos
Puskas
Best
Charlton
Ronaldo (brazil)
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181 - looks like a good team, missing Garrincha!
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170/174 -
Cantona won a World Cup for France. Admittedly, as coach of the beach soccer team!
As for the normal game, 20 goals in 40 or so games was a decent record for someone playing next to the poacher Papin. But that French team never got going until they dropped Ginola and Cantona
Frozen out? He called the boss a sack of 'merde', I think he froze himself out the first time! The second time, he was suspended when Zidane cemented his place in the team
Another perfect example of your perspective in these arguments. Cantona as an international - unspectacular. Cantona as a club player for ManU, legend, hugely influential, many take-your-breath moments, could easily be considered a 'great'
tout c'est subjective, non?
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I'm not going to attempt to justify an opinion about who is the best player ever, but what about the best team that ever played, i.e. actually took the pitch?
In 1963 (a year after I was born) my Dad went to Wembley to watch England v Rest of the World in a match to celebrate the centenary of the F.A. He gave me the programme, which is still one of my most treasured possessions.
From memory (I don't have it in front of me) the Rest of the World team includes Di Stefano, Puskas, Eusebio, Beckenbauer, Yashin and Law, and also features, on the bench, Pele. Also on the pitch that night, for England, were Moore, Charlton and Banks.
Can anyone beat that? (And please don't give me the Real Madrid "galacticos")...
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Here, here HammersGoode!
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WOW!!
185 comments without one response from Tim yet.
Impressive!
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181. At 1:42pm on 09 Feb 2009, sportsnut59 wrote:
How about an XI to try and include the all time greats. Even that is not easy!
Yashin
Maldini
Moore
Beckenbaur
Carlos Alberto
Zidane
Platini
Cruyff
Pele
Best
Di Stefano
Subs:
Banks
Edwards
Robero Carlos
Puskas
Maradona
Charlton
Ronaldo (brazil)
My only change from that team I would Seriously put George Best in before Maradona.. ;-)
Otherwise a Great Team..!!!
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According to Di Stefano, Arsenio Erico was the best player he ever saw.
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Best footballer ever - John Charles
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#156 - check out #157.
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sorry, #186 check out #157!
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Henrik Larsson.... nuff said!!
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I think Maradona was the best. He had such great skill and balance, he was virtually impossible to get the ball off. He could create goals with defence splitting passes and curl free kicks into the top corner all day long. He had some terrible injuries but was still better than everyone else. He was just a natural talent. His goal against England was the best I have ever seen, and the best goal of all time i reckon.
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Yashin
Maldini
Moore
Beckenbaur
Carlos Alberto
Charlton
Platini
Garrincha
Pele
Maradonna
Di Stefano
Subs:
Banks
Edwards
Robero Carlos
Puskas
Best
Zidane
Cruyff
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#141
With you 100%
Hard to pick for this decade, but if recent events are anything to go by, Stevie G is the closest to a one man team in the Premiership. With him, the Reds are genuine title challengers, without him they are little better than average. If you want to weigh up the influence one man has on a team, look no further than the Istanbul final. Truly great players do not accept that 3-nil down at half time is game over, even in the biggest game of their lives.
All this from a Blue!
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Cantona one of the best ever? cant agree there mind. lets not forget he only played for Man Utd for 4 Seasons(was there 5 seasons but was suspended for practically a full season) and never really did it at international level and i'm guessing people arent referring to his time in France.
Dont get me wrong, great at karate Kicking fans during matches but best player ever?? Not for me.
I'd have Schmicael (excuse the spelling) before Cantona, keepers never get a mention and he has to be the best theres ever been.
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I know I made my comments on GOAT earlier but if we are kicking out names....
here's a few players from my youth that were incredible
Karl Heinz Rumenigge
Zico
Falcao
Enzo Scifo
Emilio Butragueno
Jean Tigana
Hugo Sanchez
Norman Whiteside
Peter Beardsley
Michel Platini
Franco Baresi...
...and there are many more.
If you want to talk about moments that make the hair on the back of your neck stand on end, anyone remember Tony Yeboah's volley for leeds, against Liverpool I think. Or Bergkamp's hat trick against Leicester or Jonny Metgod's ever-rising free kick or Schmeichel's save against Vienna etc etc
Football is BRILLIANT. Great football makes me tingle.
And I've never tingled more than with Maradona.
And you've got to vote with your tingle.
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there is always going to be different views and opinions on who was the greatest. personally i think pele was the greatest, but i also believe that if Duncan Edwards had survived the Munich air crash, then there would be only 1 name for the greatest Ever......He had so much to offer the game. if Edwards had survived bobby moore may not have been in the world cup 1966 team and Edwards would have shone as England capt. Even bobby Charlton said Edwards was the best he ever saw or played with.
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One or two mentions for Giggs.. But what about Paul Scholes...?
He has won so much in his career too over 700 games for Man United..
People say he didn't score enough for England..?
He is a midfield player, what did fans expect !
Nobody has yet surpassed Sir Bobby Charlton on goals for his country..!
So to lay that on Scholes is way OTT.
Brilliant midfield player .. One of the best in my honest opinion.
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#191 Whoops my bad. Still an impressive debate created.
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Well this one certainly got the opinions flowing.
Remember that many of the greats played with distinct political advantages- Real were almost forbidden to lose domestically, whilst in Eastern Europe in the 50's and 60's you could never be sure someone wasnt in the pocket of the right politcal apparchatnik. Sadly this devalues the claims I think for Puskas, Stefeno and Yashin despite their international exploits.
Then theres Maradona, a genuis but also a cheat- he deserves to be ruled out for that reason alone. Pele was probrably the best, but despite great claims for the Brazilian league, never played at the top week in week out.
Time also colours things. How many 40 somethings would vote for Zidane over Platini ?
Lastly lets not overlook domestic talent. Surely Booby Moore was as good as Beckenbauer ? Greaves (scored on every debut) as good as Muller ? Jennings and Shilton the best 2 goalkeepers ever ?
Finally a special mention for 2 players not mentioned so far. Emilio Buetragueno- awesome in the 80's for Real. And, not the best, but the most SKILLFUL footballer ever...Glen Hoddle.
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I mentioned Butragueno
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Also, why is there no (or barely any) mention of Stanley Matthews?
Surely as great a player as Di Stefano, but just played his best stuff a few years before. Clearly a greater player than the ridiculous suggestions of the likes of Giggs, Henry, Cantona and Zola, not to mention the short-sighted modern mentions of the likes of (fat) Ronaldo, Maldini, Messi and Ronaldinho.
I am guessing he isn't mentioned as he was a tad too early for most people - me included, but have had bothered to see footage and read about him - and the fact that he was English and played for Stoke, Blackpool etc. and thus not as glamorous as your South American suggestions.
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for me zidane will go down as the greatest
understandibly pele would b up there, as woul puskas and di steffano, but those 3 wer gifeted beyond their peers for me, im too young ( really ) to have watched them in their day, but the likes of pele benefited from a lack of imagination in the game i think, not saying it wasnt there, garincha was a great, and with bow legs to boot too, but the grace they had was akin to ronaldo against shipyard workers
maradona would go second on my list as his exploits wer there wen players of the likes of cruyff n van basten wer about n he outshone all of them on purly football terms
but for me zidane, playing in an era wen the world is full of crazily gifted players, they are groomed from a young age, much more so than the earlier payers n generations, he stuck out like a sore thumb. his trophy collectoon n medals, individual honors n club and country successes wer monumental, n to say he played a art in all of the successes is an understatement, as di steffano created the aura of madrid, zidane revived it, n for me goes down as the best money ever spent on a footballer.
he had his moments, not least the world cup, but genius is flawed in 1 way or another, aside from the mattarazzi incident he really composed himself
his skills on the ball wer sublime, the stuff c ronaldo does is like a joke compared to zidanes, his grace and movement wer immense
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tough argument, all are valid choices. however most are attacking offensive players. my choice of greatest is currently rapping up a 25 year career of the highest quality. for all the talents of most mentioned today Paolo Maldini would negate them all.
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#203, Ronaldo is thoroughly deserving of a mention. Pre '98 World Cup final he was a monster with skill to match almost any Brazilian, power and pace to match anyone and a goalscoring record that Gerd Muller would be proud of.
Maldini warrants his mention too, being the best left back of all time and all.
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"You've got to vote with your tingle"
Love it!!!
Lots of players were/are fantastic at a lot of things and have won various honours...but it is the player that probably came from another planet that made me tingle the most. The player who left fellow profesionals tingling too. They guy with a talent that was sick it was unexplainable. It was scary. Diego Maradona.
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ill second maldin, but i think he has a bit to top Franco Baresi in my opinion, he was the greatest i have ever seen, maldini is a living legend tho
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Another Argentine player that most in Argentina no doubt would class as a Great..
Mario Kempes, helped to win a world Cup with his array of goals.
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Ron Rafferty was the best player.End of debate.
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#203, Zola was schooled by Diego at Napoli and was outrageously skilful and very successful and a great ambassador for the sport.
Ryan Giggs has 10 league championships, 2 European Cups, plus various other achivevements. His career spans almost 20 years and in his early career Del Piero and Zidane considered him the best player in Europe.
I don't agree that they are the GOAT, but both are certainly worthy serious of consideration. To say only players from pre 1980 can be considered is just as ridiculous as saying that only a modern player can be.
Mathews is a great player but you are a prawn.
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i truly beleive that due to his influence in the game, and because of his outstanding club record that the best player to have graced the planet is dean windass.
we are all entitled to an opinion
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As an Oldham fan, after this weekend's performance in goal away at the league leaders, I'll let you have Windass.
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George Best - no disrespect meant here but for me George Best was an embaressing example of wasted talent. Gacoigne, Collymore, neither players as talented but both as wasteful.
Best would never be in the top 10:-
1) He bottled it to the USA in late 20s
2) His attitude compared to likes of Charlton, Giggs...is shocking
3) He is a poor role model for any footballer
4) He never played for a decent world team
5) Nicholas Anelka won more trophies...
6) He did little to change the game like Cruuyf, Di Stefano, Pele...and is more famous for being the original spice boy that all others are compared to.
No disrespect, but looking at Ryan Giggs (heavily compared to Best over the years) is enough to realise to be the 'best ever' you need to be imaculate on and off the field...for 15 years in a row...
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211
Stop talking about being role models, attitude and trophies. The best player of all time was quite simply the most gifted and talented with a football. The player that was from a different planet. The player that was able to do things that no other player before or since has got close to. Diego Maradona.
Zidane is the most gifted from the past 15 years.
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i have a huge disagreement here- i think that with very few exceptions the modern players are much better than the players from years ago. you can argue about the impact they had on the game/development/popularity, but in terms of who is the best player?? only today's complete players are in the running. it's just not possible to compare players that did not face the same kind of defensive pressure, et cetera...i think you can say "he was the best in the last 20 years, (van basten, zidane) he was the best 25 years ago, (maradona) 36 years ago (platini, cryuff) et cetera...
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As im only 19 i cant really comment on players before my time. the best players i have seen in my time are the brazilian Ronaldo and Zidane
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I never saw Puskas or Di Stefano so can't comment other than to say it is clear they stood out from the crowd of top flight footballers in their era.
That is my point, I think the only way this can be judged is to measure players against those around them.
In my opinion I have never seen anyone as good as Zinedan Zidane. He was a true master of the game and artist and stood out in a very very good Real Madrid side and for that matter, in his prime, from a very good French side.
I think Paul Scholes is worth a mention. Definitely in a class of his own in his peak and even now in the twilight of his career.
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Re comment 70
"..why does everyone still think its alright to be an alcoholic, like theres something loveable about it, but take recreational drugs and its the worst think in the world.
The recent rugby episodes of Tindall and Stevens illustrates this double standard frighteningly perfectly."
__________________________
I don't think anyone really thinks alcoholism is "loveable". Pretty libelous of you to insinute alcoholism of any rugby players too.
In terms of the best player ever, I'd say one of Charlton, Beckenbauer or Pele. Duncan Edwards is still widely regarded as the most gifted player to play in an England shirt and if fate hadn't intervened he may have gone on to be the best ever. In the modern era I'd go for Maradona, closely followed by Klinsman, van Basten, Lothar Matthius, Ronaldo (Brazil), Zidane, Maldini - and how about Paul Scholes (who would have walked in to any team in the world at his peak).
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I am #211 and 3 hours ago I said at post #100 that Maradona was the GOAT. I repeated it at post #197.
I am just saying that other players are worthy of consideration and you can't slag other people's opinions.
Read my other posts you might learn something.
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In fact matchboxmaster i am the 'tingle' guy you love so much.
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Anyone who ever saw Tony Green playing for Blackpool in the late 60's/early 70's would surely rate him as among the greatest ever, I know I do!
and I have to add - I would never consider Maradona, anyone who is such a blatant cheat has no place among the true greats
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how about segmenting it into decades to stop the arguement of different eras.
For me it would have to be....
1960s Pele
1970s Cruyff
1980s Maradona
1990s Zidane
2000s tough one to call till the decade is over- still Zidane or will Messi take over?
Best ever, in my humble opinion I have never seen anyone who can eclipse Maradona for balance, power and skill.
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Tim's right, it's an impossible debate to settle due to changes in media technologies, problems revising history etc. But bearing this in mind i'd have to say Dennis Irwin is undoubtedly the greatest of all time, no come-backs.
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220
I never said that YOU didn't consider Maradona to be the GOAT and I never slagged you off. The factors that you were mentioning though have no impact on who was the greatest. The greatest was quite simply the greatest with the ball at his feet.
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boomshakalak,
You're 32 and you saw maradona at the peak of his powers in the flesh - you must have been young, which is great, but do you remember writing, "all i am trying to say is that i would love it if the comment on here was from people who watched great players - rather than those who want to comment about them with no knowledge... the number of times i have heard 15-20 year old Man U fans say "Christiano Ronaldo is the best ever" or 20-30 year olds say "Maradona was better than Pele".. is quite alot... and it carries about zero credibility... as unless the said 15-20 year old has seen all the players it is hard for him to express any real opinion on where he ranks in an all-time list."
Have you seen all the players ever? Has Tim Vickery? Has anybody? Probably not. Does that mean nobody can opine who the greatest player of all time is?
1000 players before Eric Cantona? Really??
Fair play for admitting you sounded aggressive earlier on, but what's wrong with youngsters, or older people, saying that one player is the greatest of all time? It's not an exact science, it's an opinion.
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Great blog Tim,
You certainly seem to have stirred up a debate! Your assertion that Di Stefano "...was not the driving force behind Real Madrid winning the first five European Cups, he was also chiefly responsible for the quick success of the competition" does tend to undermine your own argument. Do you mean "not ONLY the driving force"?
Other than that, a well thought out and convincing argument, well done!
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It is very much an impossible debate but goes to show that the majority go for the same players.. maybe not in the same order but all the same, views don't vary GREATly :P
The list over the next Century will just grow and Grow.. and still widening views to follow.
Great debate though all the same , enjoying it..
Great input everyone.
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"I will take a massive shot in the dark and say you are a Man United fan. I understand for you love for Giggs I have the same feeling for Pupi Zanetti but I will not call him the greatest ever. Lets not get foolish now."
SHADUR 10 - So what if he is a Man Utd fan?? Ryan Giggs has been an amazing pro! He is about to possibly get his 11th Premiership medal and has a few Champions league medals to match......awful player....
Don't forget he has played at the highest level nearly his whole career and scored in every Prem season so far......
Paul scholes isn't far behind....
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Re post 222.
Don't see how you can say Messi for the 2000s.
He's played a couple of years for Barcalona, didn't play in the CL winning team and hasn't won the World Cup. What's he ever actually done (talented player that he is).
Surely, you'd have to say Ronaldo (Brazilian) for the 2000s ahead of Messi? World Cup winner, CL winner, World Player of the Year etc. or Zidane - Euro 2000, CL, World Player of the Year etc.
Or what about Pirlo, Gattuso, Maldini and co? World Cup and numerous CL final appearances. Or Kaka? Or Shevchenko.
As much as non-United fans want to slag him off, Giggs is also ahead of Messi in the 2000s. As are van Nistelrooy, Henry, Gerrard and Nedved.
Christino Ronaldo is also ahead of Messi given what he has acheived so far in his career.
Messi may be the player who defines the next 10 years, but don't get giddy - the lads got a long way to go before you can call him a great.
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2227 - I did indeed mean 'not only the driving force´' No idea what happened to that 'only' - it was only an only, but it sure was missed!
The original idea of this piece was to celebrate the 50th version of the Libertadores, and to point out that what got this compettion off the ground was the invitaton from Europe - that's how the thought process started.
Then I started dwelling on why this invitation came - and concluded that it was because of Real Madrid, since Di Stefano had ensured the success of the European Cup and created the curiosity to see if South America had anything to match Madrid.
And then, rather in the way that he bossed the games he played in, Di Stefano took ovre the whole piece!
As a footnote, he played in the the first of those inter-continental ties, the 1960 matches between Madrid and Penarol of Uruguay. 0-0 in Montevideo, 5-1 to Real back in Madrid, with Di Stefano on the scoresheet early.
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Tim Vickery is sitting in 30 degree heat sipping on a frozen cocktail while getting his feet massaged buy a brazillian girl laughing his ass off at the monster he's created
Next weeks blog....world XI
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232 - that's a downright lie -..... it's at least 35 degrees today!
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@201 Glen Hoddle the most skillful footballer?Really hope you're joking mate.I dont think Hod was fit to tie Enzo Scifo's boot laces let alone some of the world's greats!
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Everyone seems to be overlooking Titus Bramble. Probably the greatest player to grace any football pitch.
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People need to get over this Maradona 'cheat' business.
The man was a magician, able to do things with the ball at his feet that no-one else ever has and probably ever will.
Everyone carries on like no other player in the history of the game has ever scored a goal which shouldn't have been allowed.
For crying out loud!
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I hope you appreciate how good a job you have Tim!
Looking forward to your thoughts on the early stages of the Libertadores, it will be interesting as usual to see how the smaller nations compare to the Argentinians and Brazilians. Does anyone know if there is a channel in the UK that covers the Libertadores? Even a highlights show?
As for the greatest ever, in my lifetime it's Zidane. He was magnificent. Ronaldo get sme on the dge of my seat, Ronaldinho made me smile, Messi makes me laugh, but Zidane at times took my breath away. The semi final against Portugal in 2000 and the quarter final against Brazil in 2006 were performances of such beauty that they evoked a very emotional response from me, and probably anyone else who longs for the days of "futbol arte".
Not surprised with the proliferation of responses on this one Tim, great blog!
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How do you judge greatest? What do you include. Does cynicism knock back a players greatness? If so then Maradona and Gerrard are probably excluded, and I am sure that others could be added. Someone has suggested that Zidane's 'rush of blood' excludes him too.
In practise all you can really say is that any player was best in their role in their era. Nobody from the 30s 40s or early 50s is mentioned above cos nobody can remember them.
How do you compare Cruyff with Gordon Banks (sorry, I saw Banks and Yashin at their prime and Banks was better, but only just), or Bobby Moore with Pele? They do different jobs.
In my time watching and loving football I would pick out Best, Beckenbauer, Moore, Pele, Banks, Cruyff, Platini, Zidane, Van Basten, Maradona, Dennis Law, Jimmy Johnstone, Bobby Charlton, Jimmy Greaves, Maldini, Eusebio, the list goes on. My dad used to rave about Puskas , Stanley Matthews and Tom Finney.
I couldn't name a 'greatest' ever and don't think anyone really can. You can only say that on their day 'x' was one of the greatest players around.
Everyone who has been included in the comments is their because they are very special, talented, players.
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This whole debate is following the classic lines of a pub debate, we've had the serious openings (Pele or Maradonna), the left-field but respctable alternatives (Maldini, Ronaldo) and then Titus Bramble...
... This is only a few comments from "who'd win in a fight, Dunga or Gattuso"
... incidentally my money's on Dunga.
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Another great blog, Tim. I think that the issue really is : how define the "greatest" player? The greatest trophy winner? The best technically? The most entertaining?
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239 - a fairer matchup might be Dunga v Davids.
Gattuso belongs in Reservoir Dogs - are you gonna bark all day little doggy, or are you gonna bite?
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Its 32 degrees here.wish i was getting my feet massaged but since i dont get paid for writing a blog i have to work for the derided mortgage industry!
By the wayLeonidas Da Silva has to be the greatest right Tim?
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id say gattuso
but yeah we are delving into the farcical now
for me the off the field attributes mean nothing in the context of this post, the form n the vision on the field are wot counts, even the trophys dont matter all that much when talking about the greatest of all time. its how they make u feel about the game, the emotions they provoke n the reason we have wide variations in the posts is coz we are all from different era's on the whole, if wer about during the 50's, di steffano, puskas, matthews, garincha n the likes would b the players to stick in ur mind n so on down the decades, i was fortunate enought to watch diego armando maradona in his day, n he trully was class, but as posted earlier, i think suppassed by the insanely gifted zidane.
n another further point to wot i was getting at is from when i was still a young lad n watching a programme about maradonna with my dad, n it was showing clips of maradona as a kid, no older than i was at the time, doing kick ups in the street with an orange, n it has always stuck with me, just how gifted u have to b to b able to do that.
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Sorry but there's indeed little contension.
There were a lot of good players and still there are, Pele being perhaps the most prolific and recognized world wide but when it really comes to the mere gameplay and football skills Maradona is simply out of this world there could be no comparision.
I understand that this always will be hard to swallow for many englishmen after his two goals in the World cup '86 - because of the way he scored both, but...
His infualnce on the Argentinian team is well known but Being an AC MILAN fan I remeber how in the decisive game of Season 89/90 between Napoli and Milan he defeated mostly by him himself the unbeatable and magnificent Milan team with Baresi, Donadoni, the 3 flying dutchmen - Gullit, Rijkard and van Basten who were at the time an still are the last team to win back-to-back the Cup of European Champions.
It was like the best player in world against the best team in thr world and the best player won!!!!
Hands down for Diego Maradona - he is the best football player ever to walked this planet by many miles.
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Before Man Utd's recent premiership dominance, Liverpool were the most dominant force in English football, and are still the most successful.
The greatest player ever to play for Liverpool is Kenny Dalglish yet while I see Giggs', Scholes' and Cantona's (ha ha) names bandied around, Kenny barely gets a mention.
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Its a shame that many think that 'great footballer 'equates only to 'best with ball at his feet'.
No wonder so many footballers today think skill is the only quality they need for greatness.
Forget the Maradona handball just for a moment. He was banned for coke abuse in Italy, and then from the 94 WC for steroids. He was sent off in the 82 WC for a horrific hack at some Brazilian. He WAS a genuis, but who knows what else he took ??
I saw him play live and he was awesome. But as a sportman, a complete disaster.And that was before he started shooting jounalists with his air rifle...
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There is no question that Di Stefano is one of the greatest of all times but to be the greatest a player has to have both club and country top honours. The World Cup is the ultimate trophy that any country can aspire to win and unfortunately Di Stefano never won one, but Edson Arantes Dos Nacimento won 3 of them and, he did not need the "hand of God" to do it.
Before the 1st World Cup in 1930, the Olympics were the highest achievement and Uruguay went to Europe and 1924 and again in 1928 and won them both.
Then came the 1st World Cup in 1930 and they won that too.
The next time the enter the World Cup was 1950, and they won that too, in other words, they enter 4 ultimate world tournaments and won them all.
They almost did again in 1954 but they were beaten by one of the best teams of all time: the powerful Magyars led by Ferenc Puskas. Thant was the end of an era.
Since I've been following the beautiful game for almost 60 years now I can honestly say that when trying to compare the greatest of one era against those of another era it just does not work. We should leave well enough alone, to each its own.
The way I see it we are now in the fourth era of futbol:
first up to 1950
second 1950 - 1980
third 1980 - 2000
current 2000 - 2015 (?)
There plenty of great players to mark each era and to each of them: Thank You for the memories, long live the beautiful game.
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Tim,
A thought occurs to me, I'm not sure how literally true this is but people often say that in Brazil Garrincha is revered more than Pele. I know you''ve covered this in articles previously.
When it comes to discussion like this you have with South Americans I wondered what British players are held in high esteem (if any) over in South America.
I find the question of which was the best team/player/era is sometimes heavily let down by a lack of knowledge of other eras and areas. Just because in the UK we think Charlton was amazing doesn't mean the Spanish or Colombians do. We in the UK all know about George Best but because he didn't play in a World Cup then Russians or Argentinians might not really know him.
Last week you mentioned Ray Wilkins and he would be an example of someone who has an equal number of people who praise and abhor the kind of football he played. Are there any surprising UK footballers who are revered in South America?
My friends who live in Milan still think Luther Blisset is a legend!!!!
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Hi Tim,
A great read as usual, I've been hooked on your columns for quite some time now.
I too am a Brit that has left ol' blighty to live in sunny Cordoba, still waiting (in vain perhaps) for the Talleres article! Although, I guess I'll have to wait to for them to do something that merits a blog, which could take a long time.
A lot of people wax nostalgic about players of days gone by, and it is obviously difficult to judge a player's impact on the game without the useful tool of hindsight, after they've finished from the game.
But, of the players at the top of their game at the moment, or of the last 10/15 years or so, which do you think (if any) people in 50 years time will be debating as the best player of all time alongisde Di Stefano, Pele, Maradona, etc?
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Theres a reason that players from the 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's (Josef Biscan, Dixie Dean, Di Stefano, Puskas, Pele, etc) scored more goals than their modern counterparts -the game was simply set up in a much more attacking fashion (it was common for teams to play a 2-3-5 or a 3-3-4 formation!!!). Less defenders on the pitch and less emphasis on defence=more goals.
So I dont think you can really use goals scored as an accurate method for determining "greatness". Nor do I think you can use trophies won (if you did, then Phil Neville is a better player than George Best!).
So how do you choose the greatest ever? Simply to watch them play in many matches (not just the highlights) over the course of their careers and make an assessment based on what you've seen. So from that I would choose Zidane, but theres many older players I havent seen enough of to really make an assessment.
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This is my list of the most dominant and influential players, decade by decade (roughly divided in halves). It's not perfect but it's less subjective and reductionistic than the usual "the best player(s) of all time" routine.
1950s: Puskás, Di Stéfano
1960s: Garrincha, Pelé
1970s: Beckenbauer, Cruijff
1980s: Platini, Maradona
1990s: Romário, Zidane
2000s: Ronaldo Brasil
I think the 2010 World Cup will crown the next great. The candidates are Messi, Ronaldo Portugal, and Kaká.
AntonioSaucedo
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John Charles.
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After watching this years South American champs no-one really stood out except for Brazils hyped Douglas Costa and Walter, who were you impressed with?
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Well as a 25 yr old, i grew up with my dad saying 3 words to me Charlton, Best, Law. from what i have seen i would go for Charlton out of those 3. he could strike a medicine ball 35 yrds no problem! However with my 1st memories being from euro 88 onwards heres a list of a few of the greatest of the modern era;
1. Fat Ronaldo
2. Zidane
3. Ronaldo
4. Van Basten
5. Maldini
also there is no way that a defender of the 50's or 60's could ever deal with Ronaldo or CR7.
i work in a hospital, and ive just been talking to a 65 yr old guy who reckons Tommy Taylor
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Steve Treacle - I agree Stanley Matthews is being sadly overlooked, probably because there really is hardly anyone alive now who would have seen him play.
But you cannot write off Maldini in the same breath as C.Ronaldo, Messi etc.
Maldini's record over 20 years must be second to none !!
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Can't believe there was a mention for Ryan Giggs on here - ha ha ha ha.
Anyways, all joking aside Zinedine Zidane for was the complete, ultimate footballer.
Quick, skillfull, powerful, graceful, great left foot, great right foot, great heading ability... but best of all he made the ridiculously hard look effortlessly easy, a sign of a true genius.
Some people say he let himself down in the world cup final '06 but i thought it was great, zidane dished out what materazzi deserved and at the same time cemented his legacy as a true legend!
People talk about Ronaldo as being the greatest player of the modern era but he wasn't a patch on Zidane... they were both in the their prime at the '98 world cup final, and what happened? one choked it and nailed it.
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Brilliant Article Tim, If only you could add some sort of video footage to your page to back up your story and help some of your younger readers like myself understand the greatness of these players?
Thanks for the insight, my mates think I'm a footballing know-it-all when really I just remember everything you tell me!See you next week!
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i meant *one choked it and one nailed it
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Re the comment "Just because in the UK we think Charlton was amazing doesn't mean the Spanish or Colombians do."
Bad example, as Bobby Charlton is probably the one English player someone in Spain or Colombia would cite as being a great player.
Not only was he famous as a Busby Babe and survivor of the Munich tragedy, he was England and Manchester United's best player through the 1960s, won the World Cup in 1966 and was a major star in the World Cup team of 1970, who were arguably better than the team of 66. If he hadn't been subbed when England were 2-0 up against West Germany, he may have gone on to be a double world cup winner (although beating Brazil would have been a tall order). On top of that he has represented Manchester United and football in general as an ambassador around the world for the past 30 years.
If you ask any knowledgeable football fans in any corner of the world to name England's best player, most will say Bobby Charlton and he certainly merits a place at the top table with the likes of Pele, Maradona and Beckenbauer.
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I am too young to have seen any of these great players except for Zidane. But the man who has influenced my life more than anyone is someone who had huge potential, and played for the best team in the world.
Ronaldinho. What. A. Player.
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The great George Best did say Di Stefano was the best he ever saw.
What about Stanley Matthews though. I never saw him play or anything but was he not supposed to have been the best player in Europe throughout his 100 year footballing career?
Was he still not playing pro football at the age of 124 or somehting like that?
He must have been pretty decent in his prime surely.
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re: 221
I'll take credit for introducing the importance of the tingle at post #151!
Such an important part of the sport - and interestingly the reason I wouldn't agree with the argument for Maradona as the greatest player of all time
I am not old enough to have seen him at his peak and have to make do with incredible reels of highlights of the little genius touched by the 'Hand of God'
But it is not for a single goal that he is discounted - it is because we know he took drugs that would have increased his performance levels
Therefore the tingle is tainted
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good old stanley will do for me!!
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Well, how about Ferenc Puskas? I reckon he has been the greatest player of all times. Just remember 6:3 and 7:1. You have never seen a football player like him. Di Stefano was great as well but without Puskas he would have been only a second fiddle. . .
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Congratulations on your blog
Bergessio did play for Benfica but only for 6 months and didn't have many chances while there. Same thing happened with Mexican Fonseca.
From what I saw of him Bergessio was agressive but didn't have much more to show. A sort of poor man Tevez.
While the Portuguese league might not be the best or moneyed league in the world it still provides you with a very technical and tactical football. Lots of Brazilian and Argentinian players.
For example Filipe Teixeira was a pretty average midfielder for Academica and he's probably the most exciting player to watch for West Brom in the past couple of seasons.
There are pretty exciting South Americans in this league Lucho Gonzalez (amazing player), Lisandro Lopez, Sidnei, Luis Aguiar, Tomas Costa. And lots of flops Mariano Gonzalez, Di Maria (what all the hype about this kid???? Tim...), Bollatti, Grimi.
Anyway the best player ever was Isaias I think he ended up playing for Coventry at the end of his career.
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Oh in the 90's not even Zidane could touch
Ronaldo from the Barcelona/ Bobby Robson years
simply unbelievable (shame about the knee)
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I don't like speculating as to who was the greatest player of all time, it's extremely difficult to compare players of different positions and you've have to have a pretty extensive knowledge of footballing history, and access to video footage to make such a judgement.
For me though, the most complete player of all time (not necessarily the best) is Franz Beckenbauer. I have not had the pleasure of watching him live but from watching him on video, and from reading the opinions of others, he was by all accounts a brilliant all-rounder.
I judge "completeness" by 4 different categories - defending, creating, attacking and leadership. Beckenbauer certainly excelled in all four.
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Pele or Maradona? or others ...
This has been discussed millions of time and every time the world has spoken for DIEGO.
Please stop comparing a natural born GENIUS with anyone.
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261- He was hardly going to say himself now. Pele also said that George Best was the best player he had seen but if you were to ask him privately he would probably say himself.
I find the suggestion of Giggs ridiculous and is just an over reaction to the goal he scored this weekend. As good as he is, he is a pretty one-dimensional winger.
Zidane has to be the best player I have seen in my lifetime and for me to compare Pele to Maradona to etc. would be disrepectful to the their achievements.
Also, I think achievements can be misleading. Most people would agree that as good as a season Ronaldo had and the awards he won, Kaka and Messi are arguably better footballers.
The only players of the modern age I would classify as 'Greats' would be Ronaldo, Zidane, Buffon and Maldini. Playes like Zola, Del Piero, Ronaldinho etc. are exceptionally talented players but not of the calibre of Zidane etc. (Though Ronaldonho etc. still have the chance to become legends).
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People who have seen him play knows what heights MARADONA climbed, what joy he gave to the people and his genius is incomparable with any other player.
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I've seen Pele, Cruyff, Maradonna & Best, and of them all I'd rate Maradonna as tops.
He could just glide through a team, like the "other" goal against England, using small changes of direction and multiple 'feints', all while travelling at speed.
To be fair all the greats have something special, but as has been noted, Maradonna took average teams and won trophies with them. Pele won with great teams, and didn't without them. The others didn't win.
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Wasn't Franco heavily involved in matches involving Real Madrid? I hope you didn't pick Di Stefano to seem different to others.
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Real Madrid's early European Cup titles have very little credibility as it wasn't a serious competition back then. Football wasn't as serious a sport and as competitive back then. Added to that was the fact that most teams fielded local players and youth teamers whereas Bernabeu fielded a Chelsea-esque medley of world superstars. Winning a European Cup post 1960s was much much harder, post 90s maybe thrice as hard. Therefore I do not think Di Stefano was the greatest ever. Not even in my top 5. Pele didn't even play in Europe. Both these picks get excessive recognition compared to the players of a latter era who have better technique, much better physically and mentally stronger to deal with all the pressures.
Greatest Players ever:
1. Zidane
2. Ryan Giggs
3. Ronaldo (Brazil)
4. Maradonna
5. Kenny Dalglish
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Obviously this is a pointless exercise as conditions regarding pitches, fitness, equipment have changed from decade to decade. I believe a great player, and most of those mentioned were great, would shine in every decade.
I remember seeing Best, and I HATE Man Utd, at his peak..and there was an aura around him. everyone wanted the ticket to see him play. Maradona, Pele, Puskas, De Stafano, Eusebio, Cryff all had that impact and doubtless many more elsewhere over the ages. In todays game..is there a player with that aura..? Messi maybe, Kaka, Ronaldo at Real Madrid, Henry a few back. Cantona.. cant think of anyone else who excites people in the way the Best's and Peles did.. though that is probably more a comment on media saturation.Medals and World Cups are surely irrelevant as birthplace ruled out so many great players, a la Charles, Best, and too many Scottish greats to mention.
Personnally having watched football since 1962 I have to say Best, Pele, Maradona, Cryff, Beckenbaur, Moore, Maldini, would be in my top 10 list for the past 50 years. If I had to choose one player, i would lean towards Puskas based on what I have read about his impact on the game. But I certainly wouldnt argue with someone saying Pele, Maradonna or Best were the greatest.
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This is the sort of discussion that goes nowhere, but it ignites the passion that only football is capable of. However, there have been a couple of strong facts supporting some personal choices.
If you look only at trophies, Pele is by far the most successful player ever (3 WC, 2 Club's WC, >1,000 goals), with Di Stefano following closely at club's level. Looking at skills, Maradona is the man, perhaps with Garrincha, Messi, Cruyff, Zidane and Ronaldinho coming next. At leadership level, I'd say Bobby Charlton, Beckenbauer and Puskas. For goalscoring, Fontaine, Romario, Muller, Best and the fat Ronaldo.
At the end of the day, you'll end up thinking of a list of greatest, not THE greatest. It's also not fair to forget names such as Zizinho, Didi, Platini, Baggio, Van Basten, Yashin, Nilton Santos, Maldini, Francescoli or Eusebio, each one responsible for his piece of magic!
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Post 268 mhaseeb - why do you say Maradona is indisputably the greatest ever and imply he is the only natural born genius ?!
As all these posts show, there are a small number of players who over the years have been blessed with "genius" and a good case can be made for any of them - Di Stefano (I would bet you knew very little about him before today), Pele, Puskas, Bobby Charlton, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, John Charles, George Best, Zidane) to name some of them....
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If you need a GOAT goalie, why not think about Bert Trautmann?
Make the debate easy and look up the statistics...then Gerd Müller is your man, no
debate.(Ask Beckenbauer, he'll agree)
If he also has to be a sportsman, then Sir
Bobbie Charlton must be no. 1.
And I was lucky enough to see Charlton and Best in the flesh!
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I Think its about star quality,Elvis was,nt the best singer,he had star quality, John Wayne was,nt the best actor he had star quality,Ali had it,Babe Ruth( a little fat guy who was a womanising drunk ) had it, anyone who had that star quality would adapt to the times they were born.
I live upstate New York, and no one here has heard of de sefano,puskas,best, charlton,but everyones heard of Pele hes the poster boy of soccer( as they call it).
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Pointless argument - it is, and always will be, Maradona.
Everyone else pales into insignificance measured alongside him - simply the greatest player ever, as the FIFA millenium vote (that was rigged to include Pele restrospectively as FIFA didn't want Diego top by himself) proves.
There have been a lot of truly great players in football, all with their own mark to lay on the world football scene, so everyone has a different opinion and view. You'll find that most around the world (though not necessarily in England due the hypocritical nature of the fans in remembering THAT goal) would agree too - as the vote suggested.
Di Stefano was a legend in Argentina and in Spain - Maradona is still revered more in his homeland though, which for me speaks volumes.
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@269
I'll attempt to make this the lat time I'm riled by someones disregard for other people's picks as the 'greatest' footballer
I'd wager that you've not seen any of the players you list live, and I'm certain that you have watched none of them regularly
Can I ask everyone, what is more ridiculous - suggesting that a man who has won more trophies than any other British footballer and played at the highest level for nearly twenty years is one of the greatest players ever? Or stating that Giggs is only recognised because he scored at the weekend and is a 'one-dimensional winger'?
(By the way DDBP, did you see the way he took apart Chelsea from centre midfield a couple of weeks ago? In fact have you ever seen any football matches?)
I started posting on this issue to defend Giggs earlier today - not because he is the greatest but because it is such a shame that we fail to recognise that he is, without question, one of the game's greats and we are likely to only truly appreciate him when all we have left are highlights...
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Sir Fergie - did football only start properly then in the 1980's ?!
You make s good point about Real's early European Cup wins - but what about Pele's 3 World Cups ?!
As to your last 3 points ;
- better mentally, how do we know ? Was there no pressure in the 70's ?
- better physically, yes science and diet has of course helped which is why it is hard to compare different players from different era's !
- better technique, there are plenty of old timers posting who would strongly disagree ! I imagine dribbling and passing one of the old fashioned medicine balls would have needed fantastic technique.
Get out your football history books, videos and DVDs :-)
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Rob Hulse when he was at Leeds. A true great.
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Those people criticising Giggs are ignorant. He is one of the few British players who can receive a ball when marked and do something with it, instead of passing it back. I´m not a Man U fan and i´m not british, certainly not welsh, but he is one of the best players to have ever graced the Prem. If he weren´t welsh, he could easily have played for any of the big countries, and Dunga and others have admitted that.
I believe it will be another 10 to 15 years before people actually realise how good he was. However, my favourite Englsih player would have to be Paul Scholes. He was a class apart. Maybe ne was never so influential and he did have Keane next to him, but his skills were incredible, and his passes were awesome.
I would also like to add another name to the list. I dont think he would be number one necessarily, but for e one of the most talented individuals ever, was Enzo Francescoli, a player i believe Zidane said he modelled himself on.
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Ryan Giggs = poor man's John Barnes...
;-) (joke)
Seriously, nice choice (what with the longevity and trophy haul), but a bit biased when considering some of the other greats if you ask me - Still, it's your call and I respect that you think he's that good.
Even though he isn't.
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Tom Finney
easy
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Good read. To me, the question is, if you had to pick a team to play for your life, who would you choose first, if you could pick anyone at their best. For me, the answer is Maradonna, though I'd give Zidane a thought.
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"I saw him play live and he was awesome. But as a sportman, a complete disaster.And that was before he started shooting jounalists with his air rifle..."
Come on - who hasn't wanted to do that?
For me Maradonna is the best I have seen play live. I remember in one match he held onto the ball for a full 90 seconds. I never saw Pele but I from the clips I have seen he was brilliant and seems to have a little more intelligence to his game.
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i think if pele wasn't such an ambassador etc he wouldn't be everyones knee-jerk reaction first chioce. players like maldini are great because of his performances over such a long period at the highest level. however, for a couple of seasons the original ronaldo did things that aren't humanly possible, although his career has been considered patchy and he suffers a lot of 'banter' about his weight etc, his goal scoring record is better than anyone, not to mention being top scorer in world cup history. players are remembered for great moments, 5 minutes watching ronaldo compilations on youtube will convert anyone! this man could do things in his prime that no one had done before or will do since (maybe messi).
on a personal note, giggs is the most overrated player of all time! and fabio grosso has the biggest kahunas of all time, WC 2006 proves this!
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Tim states that Di Stefano is the greatest but his blog really argues that he was the most influential rather than strictly the best. The argument presented is convincing and one I can't argue with.
I'm 27 and I'd say Maradona was the best but I can't really justify that as I've only ever seen clips of older greats like Pele. Zidane is also up there for me.
I've read Alex Bellos' book on Brazilian football called 'Futebol'. In it he seems to suggest that Garrincha is the Brazilian Di Stefano. In the same way many consider Di Stefano better than Maradona a lot of Brazilians believe Garrincha was better than Pele. What do you think Tim - is that a popular opinion in Brazil?
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Great blog,
I believe you can only make real judgements on what you know firsthand, im only 20 so never had the privilege of seeing Best, Di Stefano, Charlton, Pele, Zico, Cruyff and Maradona week in week out. Ive certainly seen highlights of their careers but if you go on youtube and type in any average players name you can find a highlight reel that wud make them look world class. Therefore I can only judge on what Ive seen myself and there has been no shortage of unbelievable footballers in my lifetime.
I would have to say that the greatest player I ever saw was Ronaldo (brazil), blistering pace, so skillful, and a brilliant finisher he had it all, just a shame about his injuries and some of his lifestyle choices!! I was at old trafford for his hatrick in 2003, it was a moment ill never forget!! Zidane would have to be a close second, just seemed to have it all, big and strong, great passer and so skillful!
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I wouldn't put Giggs in the top bracket. In terms of longevity, fantastic, but on pure talent and impact during matches then there are others who rate higher.
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@arundini
I don't want to get into a discussion about the year in which there was more pressure in football. But for me the pressures of the 60s is nothing compared to the spotlight and scrutiny of 90s and beyond. Add to that the increasingly high stakes financially...
If you look at game post 90s there is a significant increase in pace. And there's a significant increase in the quality of defending and tactical organization. Despite these conditions you can still see todays players do the same things with the ball as a Pele or Maradonna. I see Ronaldo and Messi doing showing the same level of technique as these greats.
Watching DVDs and reading history books is not the best way to judge someone as it usually only highlights their greatest moments instead of their average level week in week out over 50+ games a season. Also no one who writes a book/publishes a DVD on say Pele is going to say that wasn't the greatest.
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Henrik Larsson - no other player has a song describing him as the "King of kings"
End of argument.
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Giggs is brilliant...deserves all acolades. Best Ever only doubted by his unfortunate international career. Like Best he will never be able to say he did it on International stage. Scholes was awesome at United, and at time horrible for England. He was undroppable but rarely scored. Lampard has done more for England.
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Di Stefano joined Barcelona from River Plate, he was then poached by General Franco for Real.
And all these people mentioning United players. Can you not shed that island mentality?
As for Duncan Edwards, he might have been nearly as good as Paul McGrath if he had survived the crash.
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#55 - Thank you for making this point, as it's one rarely aired, and rarely understood when it is.
That said, Tim Vickery's blog refers to the 'greatest' player ever. Now, I would venture right now that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of footballers around today who, if transported back to the 1950s, would annihilate defences and embarrass the relative lack of quality Di Stefano really had. Greatness and ability, though, however the peak of the latter is achieved, are crucially different.
My own definition of 'greatness' is partially down to influence, and mostly down to the extent to which a player excelled over his piers, i.e. those of his era. That is why, though Cristiano Ronaldo, for example (although I could've said Carlton Cole, Craig Bellamy or even Emile Heskey) is far, FAR better a footballing package than Pele, Di Stefano etc. were at their peak, they will justifiably be considered as 'greater' for their achievements and influence within their era.
Similarly, Jesse Owens would surely be considered one of the greatest Olympic athletes of all time, and yet there will be kids at Loughborough University who can run faster and jump further than he ever could. It's what you do in your era, with what's available, that defines greatness.
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Many great players from many different generations, you can not say that one person is THE greatest ever. You just can't. You may share your opinion, but it can not be stated as a fact that X is better than Y and Z.
Pele, Maradona, Best, Charlton, Puskas, Di Stefano, Cruyff, Prunier, the list goes on.
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Also this blog is a perfect example of what you should write about if you want record feedback and comments from readers: "Who is the greatest footballer of all time? Discuss."
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TrashTalkinJames doing exactly what it says on the tin.
I've love to know how many of the games you went to, see Maradona or are you basin all your worldly knowledge on videos that you've seen?
You're such a genius of the game thats why your stuck on here instead working in it.
George Best is considered that because he had an absolute game and was amazing with the ball, far better than Pele in terms of ability and Maradona for that matter.
Yet another bitter, jealous Man Utd hater no doubt.
Good blog though.
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George Best is considered that because he had an absolute game and was amazing with the ball, far better than Pele in terms of ability and Maradona for that matter.
Yet another bitter, jealous Man Utd hater no doubt.
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Great argument you put up there.
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One of the things that for me is coming out of this is the deficiencies of journalism.
Let me give you an example; last year I was up in Brazil's training camp and a local jouno asked me if I thought Jo should have been in the squad (he wasn't at the time) - I replied that I thought he was an interesting player, and if a squad needed 200 players he could be in, but with only 20 or so needed and Adriano, Luis Fabiano and Alexandre Pato ahead of him I couldn't argue with his exclusion.
On the offedning website, this became 'English journalist calls for Jo's inclusion.'
Remembered this after reading 283, with Dunga's supposed raving about Giggs. i was at the press conference where this happened (Brazil v Wales at Tottenham 2006). Giggs was on the agenda of the British journos - they asked Dunga the ? - would he get in to the Brazil side, and Dunga just brushed it off - good player and all that, but we've got quite enough of our own. next question?
The next day this became ?dunga raves about giggs.' It never happened (not to take anythign away from Giggs.
Similarly this line of Pele's where he's supposed to have said that George Best was the greatest - if he said it I have absolutely no doubt that he didn't mean it for a second. Much to the annoyance of his old colleagues, Pele has made a career as a PR man by saying what people want to hear - wherever he goes he bigs up the local heroes, and the local press lap it up uncritically.
To my mind the idea that Best or Garrincha can be considered up there with Di Stefano, Maradona or Pele (alphabetical order!) is pure fantasy - with all due respect to their undoubted greatness.
Best and Garrincha shone brightly for maybe 6 years - Best in the 64-70 period (Tony Dunne says he was on the way down by the end of the 60s), Garrincha from the mid 50s to 62 - he was a spent force after his knee op.
The great trio, on the other hand, gave us at least 15 years of sustained brilliance.
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Actually George Best is the greatest ever cos he was just as good hungover as he was sober. Actually he was probably better with alcohol than without - sorta like Popeye's spinach. If that ain't genius then I don't know what is.
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Maybe people should stop talking about dixie deans record (saying it hasnt been and never will be beaten)...since jimmy mcgrory has the british goalscoring record...many more than dixie (who was a class act i have to say.)
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Ok Renoog well how is it not? He simply was better on the ball in terms of skill and ability. When did Pele ever go passed 5 or 6 players? Pele himself said George was the Best, would you argue with Pele?
All the people like yourself no doubt who say he wasnt are people who are jealous and bitter about Man Utds success.
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I'm not a Man Utd fan, but I have to agree that Ryan Giggs is a ridiculously phenomenal player. With his fitness, it seems as though he could keep going for another 2 or 3 years in the first team and then be dropped to the bench for a couple more! That's really no joke either.
Just think if Ryan Giggs wasn't Welsh. Say, Brazilian, Spanish, Italian. We would think him to be an even better player than he actually is.
Football is stupidly different now than it was 50,60,70,80 years ago, so I do struggle to see how you can compare the different players from different eras all the time. In a hundred years will we still be saying Pele or Maradona were the greatest footballers ever?
Football is progressing and changing now, more than it ever has before. I think it's blissfully ignorant for us to keep calling the likes of Pele or Maradona the best footballers in the world. In 20 years time we could have a whole new set of challengers for that title with the legends of old but distant memories.
Zidane, Cristiano Ronaldo, Messi, Kaka, Giggs, Maldini, Gerrard - all of these players are ridiculously successful and influential players who should all be worth a mention. Zidane is self-explanatory as to why. Ronaldo - if he repeats his 42 goal haul of last season or anything similar to that in his career then surely he is a contender. Messi is so young but yet is carrying Barcelona towards great things each and every season. Kaka - without him, AC Milan would probably be finishing 5th again this season in the Serie A, and look how much they have ot credit to him already. The same applies to Giggs, Maldini and Gerrard. All of these players are influential modern players, who have to resemble those of the era that has passed.
Lets not forget that the overall skill of goalkeepers 50 years ago is nowhere near as good as in todays game. Obviously there are the odd exceptions to that rule, but generally that is true.
I just think we shouldn't be so quick to say that any modern footballer is not capable of that crown, as it seems wholly foolish to do so. A good player shouldnt solely be judged on how many goals he scores either. How many big games do we see nowadays that are won by the odd goal?
Although Pele and Maradona were wonderful footballers, I think we are being treated with being able to watch some of the talent that is on display today, and shouldn't be so hastey to say they aren't as good as their predecessors.
.....now wait for the tirade of angry football fans who disagree with everything I have just said.....
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Robificastor, simply put you're an idiot.
You're going to have to come up with more convincing reasons than "you're jealous and bitter if you don't agree" in support of the theory that George Best is the greatest ever player.
With regard to your claim that Pele couldn't go past 5 or 6 players, I can only assume you have never seen him play. He was a magnificent dribbler with an amazing ability to change direction at full pace. George Best was a superb footballer but wasn't "far" more talented than Pele, let alone Maradona (who could dribble just as well as Best but was a better goalscorer and creative player). And the talent he did have, he wasted.
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Read the blog and I feel many have missed the point.
Happy 50th Birthday Copa Libertadores!!!!
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I can't believe no one has suggested Justin Edinburgh! He would have run rings around Pele, Maradonna and Di Stefano.
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Di Stefano WAS the greatest. The 1960 Champions final at Ibrox was a superb game that proved the point. He scored 4 goals and proved the point with his complete football.
He inspired many of us to style our play on his overall game
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So u think that goin round numptys in Brazil was class? And you were at all his games i take it?
How did i say your bitter and jealous if you dont agree?
I'm simply saying that people who say he wasnt use the old "i hate Man Utd so i hate George Best"
Most people are judging these arguments on clips and videos, i'd love to know how many have seen all the players live.
Wasted talent in some respect but winning the European Cup, does that not count?
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Maybe I am suspect because I am Brazilian, but although Di Stefano is a legend, deeply rooted in the Real Madrid myth, I can't see how to compare him to Pelé. Europeans tend to argue that Pelé never played lub football in Europe, while Di Stefano did, but Pelé won the official matches he did play.
Adding to this, Pelé played magic in both ends of his career in World Cup, beating stars from different generations and footballing schools. 'Don Alfredo' played for two different national squads but never made the difference. And yes, he helped to shape Libertadores, so as other major footballers did. Regarding his wins in the European Cup, it is a proof he was a major star, even if in the first editions, to get to the title you needed 5 or 7 matches.
I agree there is no point to compare Pelé and Maradona. Pelé is another level. He was, as an athlete, the same category of Michael Jordan, Einstein or Isaac Newton. If George Best had fulffiled what he could have been, he would have had chances to equal Pelé (and probably become even more famous as he was British and played in Europe).
Maradona was a monster, so was Di Stefano. But they were still only human.
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Maybe people from the UK don't want to realise it...but Best - he might been a great player, no idea - is almost unknown abroad.
I grew up with Maradona, Francescoli, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Messi...these are the best for me.
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Personally I would have to say Pele, as he could do absolutely everything you could ask from a forward and more (good in the air, two footed, score from anywhere, skillful, unselfish and selfish enough to score over 1000 goals - the list goes on) and as I am sure other people have mentioned, was the standout player in a stellar team.
I also think John Charles deserves a very honourable mention.
In addiiton, on the subject of Maradona, whilst he is undoubtedly in any Top 3 or 5 of all time, I firmly believe Messi is a better player at the same age and is playing to a higher standard in a far more competitive environment. Obviously he would need to pick up a World Cup winners medal at some stage in his career, however, if he wins the next word cup (which is a more than reasonable possibility) I fear Mr Maradona will draw all the attention.
P.S. Tim, do you get a bit sick and tired of all the slightly sycophantic "Love the blog", "It's the best thing on the BBC website", "It's the reason I get up in the morning" stuff ?
P.P.S. Have you ever entered a Matt Le Tissier lookalike competition ?
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Bobby Moore.
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Also consider how much protection players get from refs nowadays; the great dribblers of the past had a much harder time, often getting butchered. Someone said the defenders of 50's/60's couldn't cope with C. Ronaldo but it would be the other way around.
294. At 5:48pm on 09 Feb 2009, gilessmith83 wrote that Lampard has done more than Scholes for England. Their goalscoring records are very similar (if you take out penalties, Scholes is better) and when has Scholes missed 25 odd shots in a major tournament? Did England fail to qualify for a tournament when Scholes was playing? Believe me, Capello and McClaren wanted Scholes back in the side.
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The 1000 goals of Pele is one of the biggest lies in football.
How any serious person can count their goals during their military service? Or in meaningless friendlies with the NY Cosmos?
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313 - the Le Tiss thing must be a result of the dreadful photo at the top of the page - never heard that one before. I get 'Noel Gallagher' all the time - big Dotun brought that one up last Friday on the Radio 5 Up All Night World Football phone in.
Get bored of praise? No, criticism is welcome (it usually teaches you more), but praise is great.
If I ever catch myself getting off on it then I just remind myself that Justin Timberlake sells millions of CDs, and somehow that helps put it all in perspective!
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This has entered farce territory.This is an article on the greatest player EVER.Of course some people enjoy a laugh with names like Titus Bramble etc but to suggest that Ryan Giggs could be considered the greatest player EVER is completely ludicrous to say the least.
I grew up watching Zico, Falcao, Platini,Franchescoli(Zidane's favorite player)Maradona Baggio etc and to suggest that Giggs,good player though he is,should be vaulted over these players is laughable at best and disturbingly tragic at worst.
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#315 Hilary, totally accept your point, though I feel Lampard gets a rough deal having scored some crucial goals in those dull away qualifiers where others didnt show up. Lampard's is not worlds best but is consistantly good at club and country. Scholes for me is like Gerrard, even there good games they are better than most....but i cant help watching them for England and seeing a lesser player than at club. Joe Cole is someone who is opposite...always seems to surprise me in England shirt.
Im not anti ManUtd, see my comments idolising Giggs. I just fail to admire George Bests 'short' career and feel Scholes was never inspirational for England. Rooney was also in a the England squad that failed under McClaren, but this doesnt mean he is less of a player...
Jagielka for England
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Re 316, didn't he score the 1000th goal for Santos, which was before he move to NY ?
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Well, there are at least 20 players i know that are better than George Best or Bobby Charlton. (I swear to god this is not from a biased Liverpool fan's point of view!)
Here are my top 20, as or Mr.Vickery, you were spot on with the article and with your choice of best player:
1.Alfredo Di Stefano
2.Ferenc Puskas
3.Zinedine Zidane
4.Pele
5.Maradona
6.Paolo Maldini
7.Cafu
8.Johann Cruyff
9.Henrik Larrson
10.Franz Beckenbauer
11.George Weah
12.Gento
13.Bebeto
14.Ryan Giggs
15.Gerd Muller
16.Pavel Nedved
17.Steven Gerrard
18.Clarence Seedorf
19.Thierry Henry
20.Omar Sivori
21.Danny Schofield (ex Huddersfield town player :d its my hometown team) LOL.
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Yeah what's with the picture at the top?The only one worse than yours Vickery is Ben Dirs'.He looked like the fat lisping guy that got gassed on 24.You look more like a drunk Tim Robbins!
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Wow! You have really got something started here Tim.
Of course this is such a personal choice, and strangely, while it ought to be based on personal experience, so many people have chosen players they have either NEVER seen play or might only have seen a few highlights. As a result of this, so many players who enjoy legendary status are prominent. Example is George Best. Obviuosly a very talented player, a prodigy, but not even the best player in his team.
Charlton seems to be listed because of his continued and ambiguous involvement in Man Utd. He played in the same era as Pele, Beckenbauer, and Puskas and Bobby Moore. he wasnt better than any of them, yet is picked by devout Man utd fans, for whom, the world is red.
I think the only way to get to the bottom of this is to ask Coaches and former coaches worldwide, all of whom needs to be over 65, to pick their best XI. Then see who gets the most picks.
I am betting on Dirk Kuyt, followed by Lucas...
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100% spot on.
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Re 318 you pop people of for putting Ryan Giggs down (whilst I wouldn't have him anywhere near an all time Top 10, there is absolutely no knocking his achievements at club level) and then try to sneak in Enzo Francescoli as a credible suggestion in the same post !!!!!!
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Interesting blog!
Tim, who do you feel can seriously rival the football greats over the next 10 years or so, if any?
Similar to the likes of what Di Stefano, Pele and Maradona achieved?
I feel the closest since Maradona left the game has been Zidane.
Arguably the top 3 players in the world right now are Kaka, C. Ronaldo and Messi. These players still have a lot to achieve to even get close.
I think that Ronaldo and Kaka are world class without a doubt, but believe Messi has the potential (doesn't mean he will) to challenge the greats over the next 10 years.
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no1 ade akinbyi
no 2 duncan ferguson
no 3 titus bramble
sorry pele not quite there yet
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Does anyone know the goalkeeper that Pele did his infamous stepover to (the one where he let it run through his legs past the Uruguayan keeper and then put it wide).
I heard that he was considered the South American Yashin.
As for the best ever, you have to look at those who made the most impression to a club, the likes of Di Stefano, Puskas, Cruijff and (like him or not) Maradona. You could put Garrincha and maybe Zidane up there, but I think those 4 are in a class of their own.
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Pato is going to be incredible
Maybe even the greatest of all time, he certainly has the best people to learn from at Milan
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Great article Tim, and a compelling argument for di Stefano.
Having watched football since the mid 70's, I am also from that era of people who did not see the playing of Di Stefano, Puskas etc. Different times, yes. Hard to say if those players from an earlier era would cut it nowadays. I think they would, no problems. They all had raw talent, no doubt, and were great ambassadors.
Of the modern day players, I have to say the potential for the player who could have been the best was Marco van Basten. His career was tragically cut short by injury.
I always think a great player can always be remembered by a certain moment in their career. THAT goal .v. Russia in the European Championships. Wow. Breathtaking. He was a pivotal character in AC Milan's dominance, along with Gullit and Rikjaard, too.
Very good argument for Paolo Maldini. Such a good defender who learned from the master, Franco Baresi. So many names come to mind. Everyone could make a decent argument for their choice.
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Good blog and really enjoyable comments - how can anyone say "How desparately tedious the 'greatest player ever' debate is" (#46), is beyond me!
Maradona, Pele, Di Stefano, Zidane, Puskas, Cruyff, Van Basten, Beckenbauer.... it's great discussing what wonderful players all these guys were. And it will be interesting to see if in 20 years time the likes of Giggs, Gerrard, Messi, Kaka & Ronaldo (although he's already talked of as a great) will be considered worthy of being listed amongst the greats.
I agree with post #286, i.e. the bottom line is who'd be the first player you'd put in your Greatest XI team. For me, it'd be Maradona. But as others have mentioned, while it's easy to appreciate how good players like Pele, Di Stefano etc were, you are always going to be swayed by the greats of your own generation.
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i have to agree with someone near the top - i've seen some footage of pele, maradona, di stefano etc and they look great, but i haven't seen enough. of the players from the old days (!) beckenbauer is the best ive seen, but again there's more footage of him. so! - the best player ive actually grown up with is ronaldo (brazil), closely followed by zidane, and schmeichel
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Di Stefano was signed by Barcelona only for Franco to order that he played for Real Madrid, yes a great footballer who was a puppet of the Franco regime to ensure that Real Madrid became Europe's greatest team.
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thats irrelevant!
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Interestingly Di Stefano's goal scoring record at Real Madrid, has just been taken by Raul. Di Stefano who still plays a big role at the club, has been singing the praises of Raul for years.
I suppose it is difficult to say who is the best footballer. The way the game is played, has changed tremendously from the past. Di Stefano was a new style of player during his career, and his style obviously helped him to beat some of the more staid players of that time.
I would say there are a few people who could be looked at, as the best. It would all depend on what era you chose to look at. Watching some of the old games on other channels, makes you realise how skilful players are today. Something we seem to take for granted, all of which could be laid at the feet of the Di Stefano's and Best's.
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True but Raul has been at the club for 15 years compared to Di Stefano's 11 and Raul has made nearly twice the appearances.
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Good blog, I agree not just for the reasons given but because certain players spark imagination and mystic about events. As good as Pele and Maradona were the World Cup had a
buzz and mystic about it. and before putting Pele's name forward I would say Russian goal keeper Yashin did more to create this mystic, he was a likeable Soviet in the Cold War. I remember as a boy being entralled by the European Cup, I loved the names of the teams which seemed so glamorous Brussia Dortmund, Internazionale Milan, Partizan Belgrade, and I still remember headlines like "Best Blasts Benfica", none of that would have had a ring, if the magic created by Di Stefano, he was Real Madrid and they were the Kings of Football.
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From having a look around the net, a lot of these greatest player of all time posts tend to be quite biased towards players from the country where that poll originates from (which would be borne out by some of the suggestions on here).
However, here is quite a good link, though it does seem a bit outdated (i.e. no Zidane) and throws up the names of some truly wonderful players who are oft overlooked.
http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/iffhs-century.html
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The goalkeeper hes talking about was the Uruguayan guy with the russian surname. and he was great, and yes, it was perhaps the most sublime piece of skill ever- and in a world cup semi at 3 miles high, I think !
And as for the guy who thinks Bebeto is better then Charlton and Best- these kind of fans never get beyond their TV sets. How many caps and goals did he get for a poor Brazilian team that bored their way to the 94 world cup- look it up !
A couple of honourable mentions that I dont think have come up yet...Lineker (great record and never booked- unbelievable ), Stoichov, Baresi, the Polish playmaker who went to Juventus (?), Scurea and Ian Walker- ugly git, gorgeous model wife.
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Boniek is the one you're thinking of
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1.Alfredo Di Stefano
2.Ferenc Puskas
3.Zinedine Zidane
4.Pele
5.Maradona
6.Paolo Maldini
7.Cafu
8.Johann Cruyff
9.Henrik Larrson
10.Franz Beckenbauer
11.George Weah
12.Gento
13.Bebeto
14.Ryan Giggs
15.Gerd Muller
16.Pavel Nedved
17.Steven Gerrard
18.Clarence Seedorf
19.Thierry Henry
20.Omar Sivori
21.Danny Schofield (ex Huddersfield town player :d its my hometown team) LOL.
No Jairzinho, no Garrincha. Both more effective winders than Nedved or Gento. And Sivori but no John Charles. Ask Jiventus fans about that. Cafu but not Fachetti. And no Hagi but Bebeto. No Masopust, no Mattheus (sp?). And how does Henrik Larrson get in your list? A short time with Barcelona and Manchester United but a second class league with Celtic and won nothing with Sweden. And what about Uwe Seeler? I could go on .... that's part of the fun.
And if we are picking our own what about Johnny Williams from Plymouth Argyle in the 1950s and 60s. If he'd been Brazilian everybody would have raved about him!
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For me it has to be Garrincha, a lad who nowadays would be the holder of a blue badge, greatest dribbler of all time yet psychically disabled. A career blighted by drink.
A true legend of the game but little heard of outside of his native country. Some good calls out there although i'm a little confused by the giggs calls a model professional and a Man Utd legend but not in the realms of di stefano, Rumenigge, baresi, platini, puskas etc.
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I haven't got time to read through every post - but has anyone mentioned Waggy aka Ken Wagstaff?
I think I am correct in saying that when all the league clubs had a fans' poll to find the club's best player (a millenium thing I think), he was the only player to have won the vote at two clubs: Mansfield and Hull City.
Without a doubt, Waggy is the most exciting player I have ever watched in real life. (I have only ever seen the usual suspects for 'best player' on the TV.)
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Alfredo di Stéfano Laulhé born 4 July 1926.
Special Venus and taurus
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap071213.html
Bobbie Charton similar
Dixie Dean best combination
Who is like, plays similar to di Stéfano today?
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For me there are three stand-out footballers.
1. Maradona
2. Zidane
3. Pele
These guys won everything in the game, but more importantly than that, they inspired ten other players to raise their games to the highest standards possible. This is a point often overlooked. If you were on a pitch with one of those three in your team, you'd think anything was possible.
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Another great article but I feel you have overlooked the player that I feel took over the mantle of the Greatest player and made it his own. Ferenc Puskas to me, revolutionised the game to such an extent that players still can not touch his level of play
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Puskas was in a league of his own when it came to football, im reading this thinking yes great player but not puskas.
On another note, surprised u didnt mention anything about the fact he should never of played for madrid in the first place
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Shouldn't the greatest ever player be the greatest in their respective position? Most of the names mentioned seem to be attacking midfielders or forwards. Going on the 15 years, which is basically all i can remember, what about Maldini, Seedorf, Schmeichel, Deschamps or Pirlo?
Saying that, I'm still going to go for Zidane......
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I agree with everyone who's said Ferenc Puskas - absolutely incredible player, and never really given the recognition he deserves whenever a "worlds greatest ever player" discussion arises.
Yes Di Stefano is a good choice, as he rarely gets the recognition he deserves either, but Puskas was still leagues above him.
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I was in Harrods one day waiting to get Peles autograph when a film crew came along the line asking "who do you think was the best footballer in the world?" to which everybody was expected to,of course,reply Pele.When I immediately said DUNCAN EDWARDS,Upon which they moved on.When somebody such as Bobby Charlton tells you about Duncan and having seen him play there is no question in my mind that he was the most complete footballer.Can you imagine Di Stefano playing at centre-half or indeed in goal?No contest it is such a shame that there is not very much film of him playing.As to entertainers George Best ,great as he was was no match for "The crown prince of football" one Len Shackelton .
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dixie dean you must be having a laugh. Puskas's scoring record at international level is something like 79 goals in 90 games and at club level in Hungary and Spain it is also amazing. I would argue he is the greatest player never to have won the WC As for Pele he never played club football outside Brazil the circus sideshow in the USA doesnt count. Maradona for me is the greatest ever
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Most people's world 11 seem to forget that is has to be able to play together- that is it must be balanced and not just a collection of the 11 best names. How about this:
shilton
amoros moore baresi maldini
ardiles platini beckenbauer cruyf
maradona pele
subs
Jennings
Scurea
Brehmer
Zindane
Robson
Muller
van basten
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.the great man himselfs view was Maradona and Pele were great players but the best player of all time was Adolfo Pedernera whom he replaced as the deep lying center forward of Rivers "La Maquina"Di Stefano has always said the best team he played wasnt Madrids 5 in a row European cup team but this wonderful team
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The best player ever was Maradona. I can't even begin to understand why anyone around or over the age of 40 could have a different opinion. The only player to come close since his time at Napoli was the absolute prime Ronaldo; the most unstoppable, most skilful, most panic-inducing striker I've ever seen, bar none.
As for Pele, great player I'm sure, but, 1,200 goals! He's having a laugh! As David Baddiel once pointed out, is he including the goals from his school team? There's no way he scored 50 a season for over 20 years.
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frank lampard.
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You have to remember how 'influential' Franco was in Real Madrid's success in La Liga in Stefano's time at the Berneubau, especially in the La Liga wins. From what i've heard, he was a special player but Real's success in that era will always be tainted by what Franco allegedly did to help them win La Liga. Its a compliment to Di Stefano and how good he was that Franco literally stole him from Barcelona in very dubious circumstances! Franco abused his power to help Real during Di Stefano's time.
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This is nonsense Di Stefano left River ilegally and went to Millionarios of Bogota where he starred in the Ballet Azul.The Colombians wanted to sell him to Barcelona but the legal owners of his transfer was River.So officially he moved from River to Madrid.Its so pathetic the knowledge most Europeans have of South American futbol as they assume that Di Stefanos reputation is only for his term in Madrid when in fact he starred in 4 of the greatest teams of all time.
River,Millionarios Madrid and the incredible Copa America winning team of Argntina in 1947 where the albiceleste crushed everything.
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When i saw the title of this blog i felt quite excited, but now i feel a distinct sense of deflation. Not because of the blog (as always top quality) but because i feel like ive missed out on top quality football; you see im too young to have seen any football before the mid 90s. So Pele, Maradona, cruyff, Di Stefano and the other all time supremo's are lost in time for me. All i have is a few brief 'Yotube' clips to fill me up inadequetly on these greats. In all honesty 'Youtube' can make the 'all flash no substance' players like Quaresma look like world-beater( chelsea fans im sure he'll be top notch ;) !). But still, i can't complain when i've seen the likes of Zidane and Ronaldo! heres my list anyway, dont suppose it means much after this little confession!
1.Di Stefano
2.Maradona
3.Pele
4.Cruyff
5.Beckenbauer
6.B. Charlton
7.Best
8.Zidane
9.B. Moore
10.Puskas
11.Eusebio
12.Ronaldo
13.Garrincha
14.Platini
15.G. Banks
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I can tell you all now please stop arguing over this when I can tell you this the greatest football team not player of all time has got to be Brazil's 1970 world cup winning team WHAT A SIDE THAT WAS.
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#353 - Pele played over 100 games a year for many years - he had obligations for Santos, with their game-every-day European tours, Brazil, and the Brazilian Army, which had almost as many games as Santos. Just review his book "Pele - My Life and the Beautiful Game". All of his games are listed there.
Now, my personal feeling is that it is impossible to compare players from different eras. Many things about the game have changed significantly. Just look at the ball itself. In the 50s, you still had the lump of leather that, when sodden, was guaranteed to deliver a real concussion to even the hardest header of the ball. Now, you have a thing that has been engineered on computers using CGI, windtunnel testing, etc.
You really have to kinda pick the world's best by era. The likes of Di Stefano in the 50s, Pele in the late 50s, the whole of the 60s, and the start of the 70s, Best, Muller, Beckenbauer and Cruyff in the 70s, Maradona in the 80s and Zidane in the 90s. The list goes on, and had they all played in the same era, with the same advantages of modern technology, who can say who would be the greatest?...
My sentimental favourite, of course, is Pele...
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for me it has to be....... diego forlan
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This is one tough question and I think it's fair to say that one person can't claim the crown on their own. In my view, the mantle of being the best player in history is shared by:
Pele, Di Stefano, Puskas, George Best and Maradona
I'd also like to mention Duncan Edwards, who, if he hadn't been killed in the Munich Air Disaster, I think would have been the man that lifted the world cup in '66. Busby said that the potential the man had was boundless and his game didn't have a weakness, anyway just my thoughts on a question that'll never be truly answered.
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well this is a nice read and i cant help but thinking what do you all know about football when one of the worlds greatest is not even worthy of a mention in this blog,he was part of the team to lift the first european cup to come to far westren europe and won medals galore with his club who were the top team in the british isles in the late 60s early 70s..............so who did the great di stefano rate as the greatest player he ever seen,well it was the one and only little jimmy johnstone (rip) the wizard of the wing.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Titus Brambliniho the great. No body has mentioned him yet.
:D
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Anyone remeber that goal Henry scored against Newcastle about six years ago where he swivelled round from far out on the left hand side of the pitch and scored without even looking at where the ball was going? now how many players past and present could have scored a goal like that - amazing wasn't the word ... I don't know what is!.
Van Basten has to be one of the best ever forwards.
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I have been a very keen football fan for the last 45 years and a lot of greats spring to mind.
The whole England squad of 66 and the Brazilans of the same year and 70 were just fantastic.
Eusebio was one of the greats.
Cruyff another, Franz Beckenbauer, Pele was briliant to watch
Then there was the hard men, Jackie Charlton, Colin Bell and Frances Lee.
The great players from the Leeds team in the 70's and Liverpool are still among the best.
Remember Emlyn Huges just loved it all, he would burst into tears and do a lap of honour if he won the toss.
But in my humble oppinion of all the greats that I saw play live, it has to be George Best.
As a young man in Leicester, Inwas in the kop when we were playing Man U, Best got the ball went around 5 players and scored.
The whole stadium erupted, Leicester fans as well.
That was the measure of the man and his skill.
George Best. RIP
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You cannot really compare players from different eras but in recent times for me it has to be Roy Maurice Keane. United have been the dominant force in the premiership (best league in the world) since 1992 and since he left in 2005 Ferguson has yet to find a mid-fielder who could lace his boots. In his time he had only one peer Zidane.
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Here is my thought on this:
1. Does a great player need a good team around him, or
2. Will he be a good player regardless?
My best player in the world, had to be my dad.
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I agree with SugarDunkerton.
Being 25, Zidane was the greatest player i have had the pleasure of watching. I pick him over Ronaldo (Brazil) because from the middle of the park he was in perfect position to influence everything. He could take the game by the scruff of the neck and usually did. Watching a player like Zidane goes beyond football, it's art.
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This is absolutely wrong!
It is fundamentally wrong to compare football players in general terms, comparisons are only valid if players are like for like. It is absurd to claim that Alfredo di Stefano is a better player than Gordon Banks, or Bobby Moore, or Jimmy Greaves; since they all did a substantially different job on the pitch.
If you are going to make a claim for Alfredo di Stefano being the greatest player, you can only do so for his position, which I believe would be decribed as a kind of attacking midfielder. On that basis, one could then compare him to Diego Maradona, Roberto Baggio, Zinedine Zidane, Bobby Charlton; etc.
But to compare him to Pelé is patently wrong since they too different in role and task for meaningful comparison. Pelé was a centreforward of the classical mould, and would therefore have played in front of Di Stefano (as with Maradona), and been the recipient of their passes. The differences become even more stark with the likes of Gerd Müller, Gary Lineker or Jimmy Greaves, who were more specialized "front of the line" strikers.
And as for defenders, the whole exercise is absurd.
Garrincha was a far greater player than Di Stefano as a winger. Di Stefano was not a winger, so do not compare him with Garrincha but Paco Gento or Stanley Matthews.
Pelé was a far greater player than Di Stefano as a forward. Di Stefano was never a true forward, but somebody who played a little bit further back, so rather compare Pelé with Puskas, Ronaldo, Müller, Greaves; etc.
Bobby Moore was infinitely greater a player than Di Stefano as a defender. Di Stefano was never a defender.
More to the point, comparisons of football players even when they are like for like is essentially a futile exercise, since football players never compete against each other on an individual basis. They are always surrounded by their teammates.
The only valid comparisons in football involve teams versus teams, since it is a team sport. And then only if the teams are contemporary.
It is time that these "who is the greatest player" discussions are consigned to the bin of the absurd, they have no logical basis.
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the most respected football writers world wide usually put pele garrincha di stefano and diego maradona up there.in brazil many old timers pick garrincha..
look at the world team of the 20th century picked by all the globes most respected experts people like best never even made the squad..according to these guys (250 of them) the best 3 forwards ever were pele garrincha an maradona
if i had to pick 1 i'll go with garrincha
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garrincha imo
no one played like him in the world,hes undisputed by virtually every name worth listening to in world football as the most remarkable individualist ever.
look at the opinions of those who saw him luis mendes,armando noguiera,rodrigues arry barosso an people like brian glanville..he was unique
not for nothing was he called the peoples joy
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280- If you actually read the comment before opening your mouth, you would undertand that I do rate Giigs as a good player. I just believe he is riding the wave of media adulation after his goal at the weekend and that people are being swept up by it. If I believe he is a one-dimensional winger, that is my opinion but you didn't give any reasons against except for the standard 'longevity, lots of trophies etc.' routine.
I also said that I classified Zidane as the best player of my liftime because I feel it would be respectful to talk about players I haven't watched. Yet you accuse me of never watching a match!?
United fans generally seem to incensed when someone has the "gall" to not follow the media's fawning over United and it's setup.
Lastly, Zola was technically greater than Cantona and had a ton more class. And READ before you OPEN your mouth!
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Excellent article.
I suppose the main point (that you make) is not that Di Stefano was the best but that he merits being included in the debate as to who is the best. I think your quote from Bobby Charlton shows the stamp that this man put on the game and just how he revolutionised club football in Europe.
That great triumpharate of Manchester United Law, Charlton & Best all agreed on one thing - Di Stefano was the best.
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Hi Tim, well structured article and I respect personal opinion however I wouldn't class Di Steffano, Cryuff, Maradona or Pele in the same class as John Charles.
Unlike any other player to have ever played professional football, nobody was world class in Attack and Defence like JC. It is widely speculated that Pele would never have touched the ball let alone score the winnner against Wales in the 1958 World Cup if John Charles was not injured and had been man-marking the upcoming brazilian legend.
At the time John Charles was the most in demand striker.... and also the most in demand Central Defender... at the same time. This man has unfortunately been forgotten in the UK, most likely because he was ineligible for the England National Team (?) but elsewhere around the world those who saw him play or have spoken to others who witnessed his play will all say that being the 3rd greatest striker of all time, No. 1 Defender of all time and still never ever getting booked would constitute the John Charles as the Greatest Footballer to walk on Planet Earth.
Indeed Juventus named a stand in the Del Alpi after him, voted him their greatest ever striker and greatest ever defender and the greatest ever player. The public of Italy in 2001 voted John Charles the greatest player to grace Serie A who annihilated 2nd place Maradona to the No. 1 spot and even the like of Pele, Platini and Zico consider the Welsh man the perfect player who cannot be trained, but is instead giving his gift from within the womb...
If Kaka is worth £107M then John Charles today would bankrupt the region of United Arab Emerates. But yeah, Di Steffano was a class act as well.
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Arthur Friedenreich....
Who I hear you say...
This guy was the best there was. Still IS in my opinion. He was one of the 1st afro black players, and he was a superstar. Half German, half Brazilian.
Nicknamed; the 'Tiger' or 'The King of Football'. It is said he scored more goals than Pele in his career... and I mean WAY more.
Only due to FIFA faulty record keeping back in the day (1909) there is no way to verify his record.
He retired at the age of 43 having Played in over 1200 games and most people say scoring well over 1200 goals.
Any footballer who can boast a record like that deserves the acclaim of Best of the Best.
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Hi Tim,
what about Sindelar? I know it's a leftfield pick, but i find it so interesting that there's all these players very few have heard of but people who saw them say there were magical.
even players like di stefano and puskas get metioned less and less now, certainly for kids. Pele and maradonna seem the only ever-lasting players from those times (pre 90s let's say)
I saw a program about politics in football a couple of years ago and that's where i found out about sindelar. He was an austrian playing just before WW2. Hitler tried to make him play for germany, he refused and was found dead in his apartment from carbon monoxide poisining in 1939.
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It always amazes me when maradonna appears on 'greatest' lists and 'legends'.
What a bunch of hypocrites - Maradonna was a drug fuelled player. he was drugged up to the eyeballs during his career in Italy, and it shows the failings of FIFA & UEFA that they never prosecuted him for this during the world cups.
Do you hold Ben Johnson / Marion Jones et al as supersatrs?
Its an insult to 'TRUE' legends to even have Diego the Druggie bandied around in the same category.
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The greatest player of all time is the one that sparks a lifelong love for the game - the one who changed the game from being like any other sport to being the beautiful game.
For me, this was Alessandro Del Piero playing for Juve against Dortmund in a Champo League final sometime in the mid nineties.
During that ninety minutes he was majestic - a different class to everyone else (which may have inlcuded Zidane). It's a pity he had two bad injuries not much later in his career.
Even though I remember USA 94 well (I was 8), with Romario/Bebeto and Baggio - it's Del Piero who first astonished me with a football. And no matter who many times I watch Pele or Maradona or Cruyff or Messi it's just not quite the same!
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Chelseasaffer i think you'll find the great man (Pele) won 3 world cups, 58,62,70. In my opinion i would have to plump for Maradona, growing up watching him he was phenomenal, i was 7 when the 86 world cup happened and i remember him being mesmeric, Although my old man thinks i'm a tad nuts by saying Maradona over Pele. But i never saw Pele play therefore i can only go on what i've seen for myself. But it is almost impossible to pick the greatest ever, as there have been quite a few and i wouldn't argue too long with the author wit his opinion of Di Stefano being the greatest as he has to be up there.
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Ali Dia for me.
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It is difficult to assess these players against each other because of era, position, subjective preferred playing style etc etc.
So here is a draft best ever team.
Schmeichel
Cafu
Baresi
Moore
Maldini
Zidane
Beckenbauer
Maradona
Giggs
Muller
Van Basten
Subs: Yashin, Irwin, Di Stefano, Charlton, Pele
I had to play Zidane and Maradona slightly out of position but I reckon they might be good enough to cope. And the Kaiser could play anywhere.
I reckon this is a pretty good team (understatement) and would take some beating.
Feel free to comment.
There are of course many players that are on the fringes : Platini, Garrincha, Charles, Ronaldo (9), Puskas, Cannavaro, Greaves, Matthaus, Zoff, Zico, Kempes, etc etc etc
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Actually, on reflection, I'd play Pele and Muller would be on the bench.
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great blog Tim. if someone would have asked me to pick my top 10 all time a year or so ago, Romario would probably not feature, but he has to be considered as one of that top bracket of all time greats. just look on youtube at some of his stuff..esp "romario-genius". breath-taking stuff. he chipping the keeper and leaving him for dead time and time and time again. i can't think of any goals where pele, or puskas, or maradona, or c ronaldo or ronaldo ( brazil) , etc etc chip the keeper more than once, if that. that's an exceptionally difficult skill to execute.... you can watch goal of the mth in the prem all season and there probably won't be more than 1 chipped goal all season.
romario is also king of that audacious toe-poke finish. and there won't be more than one of those all season either in prem lge.
blimey he was only at barca for a year or so, yet scored so many jaw-droppingly brilliant goals for you to think he'd been there 10 years. he didn't win as many trophies as he should have but for pure talent, he's right up there. people say maradona won the 86 w cup single handedly..but the 1994 w cup romario was immense scoring a goal in 5 of the 7 games..each goal was the ice-breaking 1st goal. and i've heard Tim say, there was no flair in that m/f to give him any service. and then you go on to what other great players say about him. Ronaldo around 1997 when he was at his peak said he still looked up to Romario as the no.1 .
romario's wiki page quotes maradona saying romario would walk into his alltime dream team. and cruyff -an all time legend himself just drools about romario...he famously argued for romario to make the 98 and 2002 w cup squads and again per wiki says that he's a "genius of the goal area".
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What about Puskas or Matthews who was never booked! ALot of modern players could learn from him! Or Jinky who Real Madrid offered Celtic a blank cheque for his talents!
Although im glad to see a bit about Di Steffano, he is a legend!
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Picking an all time team is too tough - how do I choose between players I've hardly seen? Best or Garrincha? Garrincha, probably. Muller or Pele?! Pele, but it feels wrong choosing a team like this (on reputation, stats and hyperbole etc). So, one composed of players I've seen in my 'lifetime' as a fan. So what if it's imbalanced?
Schmeichel
Cafu
Baresi
Sammer
Maldini
Rijkaard
Gullit
M. Laudrup
Zidane
Romario
Ronaldo
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That's a good team.
The only players in my team that I have never seen are Pele, Moore and Beckenbauer at his peak.
But I reckon, even if only on reputation, they have to get in.
Everyone else I have seen.
Good call on Laudrup, fantastic player, and Romario can certainly be mentioned with Pele, Van basten, Charles and Muller.
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I am very pleased that Müller has been mentioned since he was an exceptional goalscorer.
However I have no idea why no-one has mentioned Josef Bican, possibly the most prolific scorer in football history.
He was part of the Austrian Wunderteam of the 1930s, and was the season's highest scorer in the whole of Europe on five separate occasions.
Bican had the ability to play with both feet, he also had considerable pace and was able to run 100 metres in 10.8 seconds, which was as fast as many sprinters of the time. The International Federation of Football Historians and Statisticians awarded Bican the "Golden Ball" as the greatest goalscorer of the last century.
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I would say Henrik Larsson is without doubt the best footballer in the world– talent, professionalism, dignity, determination and gentlemanly conduct…not many of his type around now! Yes I am a Celtic fan but read on this article I copied. I am sure most of you will all agree with me, including Rangers fans. Some of my friends whom are rangers fans admit Larsson was one of a kind! Hail Hail!
CLICHES ARE devices employed by the talentless to make genius manageable. We clods only make sense of the sublime with glib and meaningless phrases. Football, for whatever else it might be worth, proves the point.
Here's a recent favourite. Every hack on the sofa offers it weekly. "Form is temporary," they say, "but class is permanent." They forget to add: "and then there's Henrik Larsson".
The little man was breaking hearts at Old Trafford last week. Sir Alex Ferguson was talking wistfully of how the Swede, if he chose, could be playing in the Premiership at 40. What he truly meant was a two-fold assertion.
advertisementFirst, that a player who could "only score in the SPL" has been more productive for Manchester United over 10 short weeks than certain starlets named Wayne. Secondly, that Ferguson's club only earned the right to face Roma, next time, thanks to a little guy who prefers the wife and kids to another bucket of money. Champions League? Done that, won that.
In a world of non-genuises preening in their baby Bentleys, Larsson's example is important. Ferguson taught him nothing. He exercised no patronage worth a damn and did not once dare to shout, bawl, or bully.
Larsson does not need his money, his glamour, or his psychosis. Here's Henrik executing that inch-perfect strike when it matters most, almost for fun. Where's David Beckham, at 32? Rodeo Drive? It's not even funny.
Larsson is the best header of a ball since Denis Law: discuss. This isn't a trivia quiz. Football's pantheon contains any number of glorious failures. What counts most, finally, is the ability to take a craftsman's care over the essential transaction: people pay money, I perform. That's the deal.
The Premiership, bloated beyond all reason, has begun to lose sight of the fact. My guess is that Sir Alex is allowing himself another couple of years at Old Trafford in order to create yet another team: that's his privilege, I think. That is, equally, the Manchester tradition.
But Giggs, Neville and Scholes, glorious as they have been, are enjoying their last hurrah. The team, like the coach, are no longer young, and the youngsters among them have yet to perform. What mattersnow is to transmit the virtues that Ferguson, raving like Lear, has embodied. Where's the next Keane? Who might be the new Cantona? To put it no higher, the next generation had better not pin their hopes on Rio Ferdinand.
Instead, we have Rooney and Cristiano Ronaldo. Bobby Charlton, who may know a thing or two, has been lavish in his praise of the latter while appearing to ignore the former. I doubt that it counts as an accident. What was the Great Comb-over in his finest days, after all?
He was the teenager who survived Munich. Rooney needs a bit of pressure? Try living through that slaughter. Charlton was also the finest striker of a ball ever. That's ever, italics, by the way. Even Pele deferred. When old Baldy says that Ronaldo can do things no-one else has ever done before, the praise is lavish beyond words, but the criticism is implicit: where's Rooney?
Why is Sir Alex still failing to extract genius from the great, white, pasty-faced hope of English football?
Larsson's goal against Lille should be shown in every coaching class there is. The marking was dire; Ronaldo's cross impeccable: that much is beyond argument. But how do you teach anyone to lose every marker, to merely "pop up" just like that? And how do you instil an imperative: we need to win, always?
Ferguson will miss Larsson, I suspect, less for the fact that talismans who have scored in every competition offered are hard to come by, than for the example he personifies, unassumingly, at every time of asking. What could make a Ronaldo complete? What might make a Rooney understand that talent and application always go together? Here's Henrik, 35 and rising, saying that there is nothing you can show him. Nothing at all.
The hubris of English football needs this kind of corrective. Even Ferguson, in his cussed way, probably needs it. The player who says, and means, that he keeps his word to his hometown team. The player who does not stoop to foolish jousts with his coach. The player whose "media image" was never the point, nor purpose, of his trade. And the player whose reticence is an implicit comment on all those silly boys with too much money.
Possibly the most impressive thing about Larsson is that he is not much impressed by "Sir Alex". Old Trafford assumed, I think, that when the cheque book appeared the little Swede would succumb, just like all the rest. In that context, Ferguson's press conference last week was almost funny. Apparently, "the boy" - but let's call him a man - couldn't be bought.
The chances of Rooney or Ronaldo learning the lesson are remote. Those kids have agents and advisers the way dogs have fleas: they are stuffed, daily, baffled and bewildered, with "advice". But here was Larsson's last tutorial. Football need not be dishonourable. You don't need an accredited pimp. You don't need to engineer "interest" from Madrid or Milan every Monday morning.You turn up. You train hard. You keep your word. If dreams come true, you score goals.
That ethic is missing at Old Trafford. I suspect, listening to Frank Lampard's £100,000 a week contract woes, it's missing at Stamford Bridge. I see no signs of a craftsman's virtue in Liverpool, or at the Emirates Stadium. Great football clubs are owned by trading companies called players.
But who kept Manchester United in the Champions League? Who allowed the dreary nostalgics to say "that's how you score a goal"? And who allowed us to remember that a genius is worth every penny he might ever earn from a shoddy craft?
Little Swede. Black. Rising like a bird at dawn. I can almost bear to watch football again.
Thank you, Henrik, and good luck.
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I forgot to mention many of my other favourite players:
Franz Binder (reputably scored 1006 goals in 756 matches)
Imre Schlosser
Ferenc Deák
Fernando Peyroteo (331 goals in 187 league games for Sporting, and has the best goal to game ratio ever recorded)
Telmo Zarra
Bernabé Ferreyra (He was such a prolific striker that the newspaper Crítica gave a prize to the first goalkeeper that kept a clean sheet when playing against him)
Karl Decker
Fritz Walter
Uwe Seeler
Gyula Zsengellér
Gunnar Nordahl
Gunnar Gren
Nils Liedholm (According to legend, it took two years playing for Milan until Liedholm misplaced his first pass at the San Siro, the rarity prompting a five-minute ovation from the home crowd)
José Águas
Jimmy McGrory (the most prolific striker in British history)
Arthur Friedenreich (arguably the world's first black footballing superstar)
Valeriano López
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Also Tim, why does the comments part of the blog not accept accented letters?
Considering that quite a few of the players discussed would include them isn't it about time the problem was fixed?
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Tim - Can you clear up the Barcelona - Madrid Deal on Di Stefano
As I undertand it from "Barca -A People's Passion" by Jimmy Burns (mediocre book) Di Stefano was bought jointly by both clubs and it was agreed that he would play for an alotted time with Madrid then move to Barca. As history tells he ended up staying in Madrid but I do not remember Franco being mentioned as the reason for this anywhere in the book. I think Barca just took compensation in the form of money.
The writer never shyed away from the controversery between Franco's regime and what went on around FC Barcelona so I doubt that his failing to mention what so many people have stated (that franco interfeared in the transfer) has anything to do with him (Jimmy Burns) being dsibelieving towards this theory.
tbh franco was the type of pr**k that'd do that
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Davewalnut (#145) - Yes I know that it is very different. Gerd Muller is a shining example of a specialist goalscorer. However, this is about the greatest footballer. Therefore, overall footballing ability is important. As are trophies won, and affect and effect they had upon the game - both in their era and subsequent times.
That is generally why Maradona and Pele are the two most cited footballers.
However, I am not so sure longevity is important for Greatness. Alexander the Great had a very brief period in history, yet must rank as the Greatest military commander of all time.
I am also suprised by the notion that George Best is unknown outside the UK. Just for his humiliation of Benfica - and making Eusebio look average - his legacy is assured.
I am convinved of my original PoV - Garrincha. His footballing ability is right up there. And he was responsible for Brazil's 58 and 62 (especially) world cup wins. That he was bow-legged and smoked over 60 a day, only adds to his genius.
If I were to nominate an all time first 11, that would be very hard. There would probably be a European bias, as generally speaking great Brazil sides are full of world class players, though not great players. And it takes a team with a great player to outshine them.
The second problem is that it is easier to judge players from the 50s to 70s as being the best of their era more so than players of the 80s and 90s. And it is very hard to judge players from the pre-War era at all. Indeed how many players pre-1950 can anyone really remember?
Ideally I would like my team to include Van Basten, Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Garrincha, and Bobby Charlton. This attacking prowess would overwhelm any side, and the defensive unit of Maldini, Moore, Beckenbaur, and Carlos Alberto, should keep it safe at the back - yet provide plenty of attacking options and the ability to pass the ball around and keep possession. All backed up by Yashin, just in case!
This is interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Team_of_the_20th_Century
as is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Soccer_players_of_the_20th_century#The_100_Greatest_Players_Of_The_20th_Century
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Regarding the criticism towards Pele's more than 1000 goals, by Ignatius. It really is not about the goals (even considering that if you take out all of the "mickey mouse" goals, you still have an obscene amount). Pele did much more magic than the goals. He played in every single position in the pitch (including as a keeper) with outstanding levels; he stopped a war, won cups and tournaments by himself dozens of times, managed to survive to European and South American violence when in matches like the 1966 WC and Libertadores; did score goals dribbling nine of 11 adversaries in Maracanã (against Brazilian giants Fluminense) and many, many, many other times in small stadiums where there was no recording or public enough...
It is an endless list. Pele was not human. This is the best reason for us to avoid the discussion if he was or not better than this or that. I am not a Santos supporter and haven't seen him playing but the facts seem unquestionable to me. Many other people mentioned great, extraordinary footballers here, like Bobby Moore, Maradona, Eusebio and so on. None of them is even close to Pele, like none is close to Michael Jordan, for example.
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Regarding Peles record of 1200+ goals, I think this just proves his remarkable ability to promote himself (although I'm not denying he was a fantastic player). As already mentioned it is slightly ludicrous to include goals scored in frendlies and for the military! I doubt these games were quite up to top-level standards. (What next, are you going to include the goals you scored in training as well?)
According to the Soccer Statistics Foundation (http://www.rsssf.com/players/prolific.html) Pele comes third in the all time goalscorers list (just counting official league/cup/international matches).
The top 5 goalscorers list is as follows:
1. Bican, Josef (Austria, Bohemia/Moravia) 804
2. Romário (Brazil) 771
3. Pelé (Brazil) 765
4. Müller, Gerd (Germany) 735
5. Puskás, Ferenc (Hungary) 701
If you're going purely on goals scored then Josef Bican is the greatest of all time! How many people have mentioned him? (No, I hadn't heard of him either).
So when you consider that Pele wasn't the greatest goal scorer of all time (he just managed to convince us that he was) maybe he's not such an automatic choice for some people?
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The thing is, football, being a team sport means anyone to be called the "greatest ever player" can only really be a matter of opinion> Say for instance darts, of which im a huge follower, its easy to say Phil Taylor is the greatest ever player beacause he has the trophy cabinet to prove it and if you were to use this for football then Clarence Seedorf has to be considered and i cant see many people agreeing with that.
A more realistic candidate could be Ryan Giggs, the most decoratd player in british football. A guy who has spent his entire footballing career at the very very top of his profession
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@373 – DDPB
Follow your own advice son!
The reason I responded was because you said that to suggest Giggs was ‘ridiculous’, so I could hardly assume you rated him. Also, I clearly gave a reason for arguing he had more to his game when I pointed out the praise he had been getting for his performances in centre midfield recently (something that he’s actually been doing well for several years now)
To an extent the trophies thing matters little (to me, although others see it as key to the argument), it’s the years of playing at the top level. That’s why Matthews is mentioned so often and why Tim holds up Di Stefano, Pele and Maradona, the ‘15 years of sustained brilliance’
And I was talking about live matches, it’s a different spectacle when you see a player in the flesh. The reason any debate will have a national bias is partly as you say because the media has an influence on the way we think, and largely because seeing a genius work his magic in front of you regularly affects you in a way that TV could never replicate - it clouds your judgement and is why I am defensive about Giggs!
Watching games on TV places its own bias – where does the camera focus more, who do they show more replays/highlights of? – as will, obviously, just watching highlights rather than full games
All I’ve been trying to get across is really that the argument for GOAT is impossible to settle for all these reasons and more, so this should be about celebrating all the greats. Pick up a few names, check out highlights, try to get DVDs of matches, and please do whatever it takes to go see Giggs, Gerrard, Ronaldo, Robinho, and all the world class players at the Bridge in person while you still can and see what you think then, because all of those players really could go down amongst the greatest
Oh, and Zola was a Chelsea great, Cantona a United one – no arguments there
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My personal choice team: (I've watched football from about 84 onwards)
Schmiechel - just the best keeper I've ever seen. used to gain about 10-20 points for United per season alone.
Baresi - THE libero. Everyone looks to him as the greatest modern defender - even current greats like Maldini and Cannavaro. Could attack as well, a brilliant passer and the captain of the best club side there's ever been.
Adams - Ok, I'm an Arsenal fan - sue me! I still think that he's vastly underrated as a defender, and as a leader.
Maldini - Just a shame (like with Baresi) he never won the World Cup or Euros. It's the only blot on their CV's.
R.Carlos - The finest attacking full back in modern times - pretty much redefined the role in the mid 90's. Forget the wonder goals and bullet shot, and focus on the tireless running and flawless positioning.
Rijkaard - Could have played at CB, but it was his switch to midfield that heralded the start of the Milan glory years. World Class no matter where on the pitch he played. Shame about the spitting though!
Gerrard - I don't think people realise how good a player he actually is. I hope he replicates his Liverpool form in one major tournament for England or he'll never get the recognition outside of Merseyside, as I reckon he's the best player on the planet at this moment, along with Messi.
Rivaldo - "The Selfish One" is simply the best player I've seen AM (after Maradona). Tricks, skills and the best power (low or high) shot I've seen.
Zidane - Great player, but hyped up a bit nowadays if you ask me. Never scored more than 10 a season, but brilliantly adept at crafting space and time on the ball. Performed well in big games, which is maybe why people remember him so fondly.
Maradona - Best footballer ever. You could have 10 Phil Nevilles and 1 of him, and you'd still win more games than you lost. A force of nature.
Van Basten - Ruined by injuries. Could score ugly goals, beautiful goals, long shots, headers and was a great reader of the game too. Probably the greatest shame (with Ronaldo) in the modern game that injuries held him back from (possibly) becoming the best ever.
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Trying to pick the best footballer of all time is like comparing which is the best beer in the world, you will never know until you have tried them all and that is impossible! (although I would like to give it a go!!!)
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Alfredo di Stefano - good shout, Tim. I've always nominated Pele simply because of his achievements on the international stage - three World Cup winner's medals - but certainly at club level di Stefano seems peerless.
I've always discounted Maradona because of his dishonesty and unsportsmanlike behaviour (1986 World Cup) and his drug-taking.
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I have only seen 7 mentions for John Charles. It is appalling that so few people know of this man.
He was the "Greatest Player of All-Time" and that will never be surpassed... fact.
Can any other player be world class in striker position and central defender? Of course not, not like John Charles type of World Class. JC could mix it in both those positions amongst the greatest players in history in those positions. Pele, Maldini etc...
Plus... John Charles was never booked or sent off. That is a remarkable feat for someone who was a giant in physical stature and a giant in terms of being a target for opposing defenders.
Also, JC was much quicker than Pele who himself could be considered faster than 80% of players today... John Charles was fractionally over 6'4" and built like a builder.... as in he was no Peter Crouch rake.
It is completely rediculous how he is so unknown only in the UK, whereas worldwide he is considered as an all-time great. I suppose you are not a good player unless you play for England at anytime or play for Scotland during the 1900's to the 1930's, because JC is ingnored by the British football media and Sir Bobby robson stated he wasn't happy with his lack of publicity. Thankfully, JC being the ultimate gentleman didn't care for that sort of thing... he was only interested in scoring goals and stoping others scoring goals of which he was brilliant at doing. His attitude of never hurting another player is also something not seen at any time because even Gary "I got booked only once" Liniker was a sneaky one with the odd little flick-kick when the ref's weren't looking.
Seriously poeple, you all need to find out what Garrincha, Pele, Cruyff and Muller say about this man. For all of the apparent "All-Time Greats", John Charles was the man of football. Imagine a £35M centre half and a £50M striker... that is him! That kind of player did exist once and it is such a shame so many today will never ever see someone who is physically capable of being that kind of player again.
He was a protoype of his own making, and it pains to say it... John Charles took the design to the grave with him, that was not his fault though and it was not him being selfish... there was simply nobody in the world good enough to replicate what his abilities were and carry on that lineage or else today we could be guessing whether Rooney will be attacking the Inter Milan Defence of stopping the Inter Milan Strike Force... forcing either Tevez/Berbatov or Vidic/Ferdinand out of the team!
I hope now people understand why John Charles was the greatest player, you put the other legends in a massively different position and they would never produce a world class performance week in week out.
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Argentinian international Mario Kempes.
An awesome player.Could run past people for fun.
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Brian Clough 251 goals in 274 games ... try it !
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Out of curiosity, did Di Stefano and Pele ever lock swords competitively?
I noticed their careers overlapped a little (albeit on different continents) and that the Argentine clocked up a few caps for Spain.
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Europeans are always biased towards players from their countries. That is a fact.
Maradona, Di Stefano, Pele, Cruyff and Beckenbauer are the top 5 for the majority in the world.
All the rest is just BSing.
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Good argument but can't really ever prove can we, however you have a typo here I am sure.....
He was not the driving force behind Real Madrid winning the first five European Cups, he was also chiefly responsible for the quick success of the competition. Everyone wanted to see his Real Madrid side.,
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Either that or I have been on the Continent too long.
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As SugarDunkerton said below, I feel I am too young to comment on the likes of Di Stefano... but the best player I witnessed in my lifetime was undoubtedly Roberto Baggio
This man's intelligence on the football pitch was rivalled only by Zidane, as was his absolute nonchalance even when producing the most outrageous skill or technically exquisite execution.
He never had great pace, and like Ronaldo he suffered repeated serious injuries to his knee which depleted his physical abilities further. However, unlike Ronaldo, Baggio was able to continue playing until 34. He was humble enough to end his career in a very modest Brescia side, and almost single-handedly established them as a stable Serie A side in the years he played there. best of all, he continued to produce the same moments of magic that first made him famous at the age of 18 and in his first appearances in an italy shirt.
He was repeatedly disrespected and underappreciated by various managers throughout his career, ending up on the books of all the big italian clubs at one time or another, as well as some smaller ones, but his approach to the game, his conduct, respect for others and fair play have meant that he will forever be remembered in italy not only as a truly great footballer but also a fantastic person.
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#406 I think Tim Vickery may have meant to say "He was not only the driving force" etc.
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Good thought provoking article. I was lucky enough to have seen the great Real Madrid team that he played in, along with other superb players like Puskas and Gento. I also saw many other players from that era such as Yashin, Masopust, Poplar, Eusabio, Hamrin, Pele and Maradona. Everyone has his own opinion and Di Stefano was certainly up there. There are many plus points for him but a few minuses.
First he had plenty of opportunity to play in World Cups and he seemed to avoid them by all accounts. Also, he had a great opinion of himself. He saw himself as the star of the Real Madrid side and brooked no rivals. If you wanted to play at Real Madrid, you had to pay homage. It is widely believed that Puskas laid on many a goal for him to make sure that he kept his place in the side and it is also believed that many great players, including Kopa and Del Sol left because they would not paly to him at all costs.
Also, many people express opinions from TV evidence. There is no experience like seeing a truly great player in the flesh. Of the british players of which there were many greats Denis Law in his prime was simply electric - incredible.
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just to stir it up a bit - i think becks is up there, when you count in impact on the game, character and trophy winning.
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Tim Vickery, in reply to some posts, wrote "To my mind the idea that Best or Garrincha can be considered up there with Di Stefano, Maradona or Pele (alphabetical order!) is pure fantasy".
On the contrary, to consider that either of Maradona - a man who could neither head the ball nor tackle, or Pele - a man I never saw make a successful tackle - can be considered up there with Best or Garrincha is pure fantasy.
Best could dribble, tackle, head the ball, play 1-2s off opponent's legs, pull off the most audacious pieces of opportunism and (OK, when he could be bothered) hit an inch-perfect 70-yard pass. Garrincha was pure genius, but I never saw enough of him to really know whether he was as complete a footballer as Best.
Sorry, Tim, but Pele and Maradona fall by the wayside. Any candidate to be considered the greatest player ever would have to be able to run a game (like Cruyff), to win games single-handed (like Pele or Maradona) AND be able to dribble, pass, tackle and head the ball all to the highest standards. That leaves only Best and Di Stefano (Puskas being one-footed disqualifies him, to my mind) - and possibly earlier players from before my time. Of those two, Di Stefano was always surrounded by other great players - Best I saw being brilliant while surrounded by 2nd-raters for United and Northern Ireland.
Has anyone mentioned any Liverpool players yet? No? Nor would I.
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I love talking about Football and the old players. With many live games shown on television these last 20 odd years and all the World Cups since 1966,I suppose it's possible to choose (some what) A favourite player.
However, prior to those days,the only time you could see those wonderful players was on the newsreels at the cinema.
As you know, England, had never been beaten by a foreign team at home (Wembley). Not until the Hugarian team rode into town in 1953. WOW, we didn't know what hit us. We all know the score. 3-6 to them. The main architect of that performance was of course Ferenc Puskus. We had seen nothing like it before and after the Hugarian revolution he went to play for Rael Madrid and carried on . A lot of what he did ( His complete control of a Football) most players today replicate, even some English ones.
So, for those reasons and just to be different I choose Ferenc Puskus
Cheers granGoonerama
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Hidegkuti was far more important to the magical Hungary side that trounced England twice - he was the first deep lying centre forward, and the one that created the space and passing angles that Puskas benefitted from.
Hungary were tactically way ahead of the times, which is why they were so special. It's a great shame that the Germans won that final in '54, or a lot more people would have heard about the other members of that fantastic side.
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matt le tissier- end of
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Firstly, I have to be honest, and say I don't know who the greatest ever player was, and if we're all honest, nobody does! There quite simply isn't a way to compare all of the possibles.
I see no reason why a Giggs or a Gerrard shouldn't be suggested. Giggs has been quite simply fantastic in 3 fantastic teams at club going through one of the greatest era's of domestic domination ever. He's shone a fair amount in Europe too. Gerrard is undoubtably the biggest influence in a Liverpool squad that consistently punches far above it's own weight!
I don't think they are the greatest ever, but it's unfair to suggest they shouldn't be considered, basically because they're british and don't play for a european team or south american nation, and they're modern. Of all the older greats mentioned, for instance, not many of them had the same sustained influence as Giggs.
As for the whole claim that you have to be a world cup winner to be the greatest, it's rubbish quite frankly! Kleberson won a world cup, does that make him better than Giggs, Gerrard or George Weah?! Of course not!
I suspect that when Matthews, Di Stefano, Pele etc. Were playing, every time someone suggested they were the best ever, a host of people rushed to say they were talking rubbish!
Simple fact is, it's impossible to say! Why is it more impressive for Maradona as one to take an average/good squad to the league title/world cup, than it is for a different good player to keep an abysmal squad from relegation?!
Football is different now, teams no longer play with 5 attackers and 2 defenders, and multiple players are now often deployed with the sole intention to nullify an opposing teams strongest threat!
The point of the discussion is that, as you can see, I can talk lots about it, and I don't have an opinion. The key is to remember that it will only ever be a discussion of opinion, and nobody is right or wrong, and just enjoy debating, instead of becoming aggressive or rude towards other people!
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I've resisted the temptation to join this debate until now as I assumed-[wrongly]that my 'all-time favourite'/nominee for G.O.A.T would be mentioned.Just a bit of pre-emptive preamble before I name him-I've watched hundreds[no,I don't mean 201] of games live and hundreds and hundreds,if not over a thousand[at least!!] on t.v, tape,dvd and computer screen.So,don't bother with the'Have you actually seen' em?' stuff.I've seen Maradona,Cruyff,Beckanbauer,Zidane,both Ronaldos,Moore,Best [several times] Law,both Charltons,Rijkaard,Van Basten,Banks,Schmeichal, etc in the flesh.The best/my favourite,by a long,long way was and still is Jens Jeremies.Head and shoulders above the cosy consensus informed only by the conformist choices of those who let others do their thinking for them.Watch the man and learn!!
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I always thought that the Pele hype was more due to the age of the commentators until I watched Pele Eterno. If you can lay eyes on a copy, please, watch it. It's a shame that we don't have such movies of the other candidates of best ever to judge fairly.
Tim, the Di Stefano fever was anything near the Pelemania of a few years later (like in the cease fire between two countries to see Santos playing)? Is there any book or movie that depicts it?
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To name Best or Giggs is like saying Patrick Rafter is the greatest tennis player of all time.
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I guess what you have done Tim is given people like myself an opportunity to understand a little about history. We always here about Pele and Maradona and Cruyff's but pardon my ignorance I haven't really heard of di Stafano. I wish I did hear about him before.
What questions should be asked to get an argument going is what is regarded as great in the terms of football ?
Is it skill, speed, vision, strength, popularity, how hard you can ping a deadball ? or is a combination of all of these and that something extra that no-one else has.
Cruyff's turn, Maradona's mazy run's, Pele goal scoring prowess, Bergkamp's touch, Beckhams freekicks....
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This is a very good article. I never really saw Di Stefano or Puskas but I did see Maradona and Pele. Being over 50, I also saw Best. After he packed in playing, he got better and better in people’s minds, until he reached cult status. I never understood the hype about him myself and Best being outside the top 50 of a European poll is no surprise to me.
I agree that Di Stefano was a major influence but it was at the time when football still had a lot of developing ahead of it. It is bit unfair to suggest that others that followed did not have the same influence; simply, there was less to be developed at the later stages.
BatiBati9 got it right with Maradona. I remember the 1990 World Cup, where Argentina as defending champions made it to the final, despite being a shadow of the ‘86 team. I believe they only got to the final because of Maradona. He almost won the competition on his own.
Fans judge their football heroes by their on-the-pitch performances, not by anything else that goes on. You only have to look at the long list of offenders and then look at how they were received back by their respective fans after whatever misdemeanour they were guilty of, to realise this.
The difference in greatness is how those players are viewed by opposing fans, which is where Maradona comes into his own. No matter what Maradona did/does, fans still love him. His second goal against England in ‘86 was voted the best ever world cup goal, a few years ago, by a huge margin of what was primarily an English audience of a BBC2 poll. You don’t get that by being mediocre. I can’t think of another player who would achieve such an accolade.
For me, Maradona remains the finest to date, by a long way.
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wow 420 before me! i must have been late...i take my hat off to you Tim for offering people a bit of insight of an under-rated great. that's all i can say
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This has caused quite a debate around the office over the last couple of days.
Given it is very difficult to single out one player, we have separately selected our Top 10 of all time and then compared notes.
Well, actually, the rest of my colleagues have. Me? I feel I have been ostracised. And I have no idea why?
Anyway, here's my Top 10:-
Pele
Maradona
Di Stefano
Eusebio
Cruyff
Puskas
Senderos
Best
Zidane
Moore
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Pele the only person to win World Cups? Oh come on. I'm not about to start rummaging through the history books, but there must be at least half a dozen. Start with Zagalo, who won it twice as a player and then once as manager, and was on the coaching team in 1994, and almost won it again as manager in 1998. Probably would have done if Ronaldo hadn't had a fit in the dressing room before hand, or if he'd had the guts to bring Edmundo on in his place. Then there's Franz, as player and manager. Oh, and Ronaldo himself, squad winner in 1994, player in 2002 (and how). Then there's the other Brazil players who survived from 1994 to 2002 Cafu for instance. Talking of South America, I suspect, though with books to hand I can't confirm that some Argentines have done it twice (1978 and 1986), at least as squad members. Oh and quite a few Brazilians between 1958 and 1962, in fact their names are a mantra to most Brazilians. I agree with the person who siad that each person has to pick their own best. For me it can be any of the Ipswich side in 1981! But seriously, John Wark in an England shirt would have just been unbelievable (no offence to the Scots, it was good to share him really.)
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I hope someone gets as far as comment 423
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I think that what we have to consider is players who changed the game and achieved heights never seen or since suppased. I don't think that cups counts specifically, ie Franz Beckenbaur, as talent is based upon what you can do with the ball in the main and not how well you can organise a team tactically. The Kaiser is classed as the greatest German footballer by many but would he have had the same effect playing for Sweden? I doubt it. He was a great product of German footballing culture and ethics (ie team first, tactical, calm on the ball) but not one of the best.
So if it's not about great tacticians or cups then what is the most important factor. It's obviously level of play and how superior the footballer was to his peers.
With this in mind, my opinion is that Ferenc Puskas is the greatest ever player. Granted the game was played at a slower pace in those days but this is offset by the equipment that was used (heavy ball), and the training knowledge that was available.
I don't need to quote Puskas's record as this was previously posted in an earlier blog, but for a man throughout his whole career, playing for the national team, Real Madrid and Honved, to average nearly a goal a game is phenominal. This is at the highest football level (European Cups, Woorld Cups, Olympic Games). And to this day, nobody has ever been able to strike a football like Puskas did with his left foot! There is some famous footage of the great man from the Seventies in an Arsenal kit at Wembely with his back to goal on the edge of the 18 yard box volleying the ball up, flicking it over his head then volleying a strike in the top corner of the net. And this was from an old guy. Absolute class. His left foot was like a magnet to the ball and the Galloping Major also developed the use of the drag back in the penalty area, which is as much of a benefit to modern football as the Cruyff turn.
True scolars of the game will always give special mention to Puskas and Di Stefano but, for me, Puskas had that killer attribute that set him apart from Alfredo. If you see footage of a number of Puskas's goals, you realise that his shot was deadly accurate and gave goalkeepers little chance to save. He didn't just poach easy goals but could score from anywhere in and around the box. His only flaw is that he didn't win the world cup, but the defeat in the 1954 final to Germany was the first game Hungary had lost at international level for 32 games. During the tournament he was injured in an 8-3 win over Germany in the group stages only to return a shadow for the final where Hungary, the invincibles lost in dramatic fashion 3-2. With 2 minutes left, Puskas actually scord a goal which the referree allowed but controversially the linesman flagged. The debate still rages with eyewitnesses saying that it was a legitimate goal that would have change the complexion of the final, and in retrospect, history.
Just second behind, and this is due to his instability, is Diego Maradona. Unbelievably gifted, he was a god in 1986 for Argentina in what is probably the greatest single world cup performance by a player. I would question though the level of competition Argentina faced in that tournament. Belgium in the semi's! Also did the unheard of and made Napoli, an average team, into double league title winners in Italy and UEFA cup winners. A very special player for who the football itself was just an extension of the body to do with it at will what he wanted. A number of levels better then his contemporys.
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garrincha was on a par with pele that is a fact,he was phenomenon long before pele and stunned the world in 1958wc and then 4 years later when he was known the world over he came to the 62wc no longer an unknown monster with teams,coaches ready for him and he still destroyed team after team with his unbelievable individualism,it is often said by those who know football that garrincha won a world cup single handed much like maradona would in 86.look at ronaldinho's failure to do this in 2006 after a brilliant intro on the wc stage in 2002.people who throw names like best around are anglo centric imo and seem to forget theres a world of great players out there not just pele maradona.brazils players have always been the most skillful back then with people like tesourinha,julinho,garrincha,dorval,pepe to julio cesar in the 70's to todays stars
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brian glanville said the problem with the internet regarding football is any old idiot can have there say,looking at the names being thrown arou nd by the younger guys thats still the case...giggs,cantona,zola cringe worthy.
the greatest forwards of the 20th century were garrincha pele and maradona 250 of the worlds greatest football experts decided this question 10 years ago
imo its garrincha.
good post englishan proud and andipol.
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DMAROTTA7
I have a massive problem with what you say.
Essentially you are saying that this debate should be frozen in time at 1990.
That there can never, ever, be a player born who is better than the three you mention.
My personal preference is Maradona.
But I acknowledge that football has only been played professionally and globally for about 100 years.
If football continues to be played for 3,000 years, how likely is it that the greatest player ever will come from the first 100 years of the game?
Answer = very unlikely - about a 3% probability.
It is also ridiculous to say that British players can't be nominated bacuase we are British.
Although I prefer Maradona and others, Giggs is a worthy candidate. Mercurial skills, one team legend (like Di Stefano and others) multiple title winner, tactically aware, can play in more than one position.
What advocates against him isn't a lack of international success (as someone else said kleberson won a world cup) but more his lack of wilful influence and his poor heading ability.
The bottom line is Puskas and Garrincha were ridiculously talented and great players but compared to Giggs and Zidane and Ronaldo (9) they were playing in slow motion and were physically weak.
Zidane would physically bully many of the previous generations 'great players' out of a game. Giggs would simply run past them and Ronaldo would have shot before the defence and GK were even set.
Maradona - freak of nature
Zidane - the complete player
I doubt that we have yet seen the greatest player - though if he is to be better than those you mention and the two above, we are in for a treat sooner or later.
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321. At 7:15pm on 09 Feb 2009, Liverpool_DSY wrote:
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you can't be serious you have gerrard above a certain Ronaldo(brazilian) what a joke
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I would have enjoyed seeing Puskas or Di Stefano, but they were before my time. Hard to say who was the greatest player ever, but I would nominate of those I saw George Best, all those skills and he could tackle like a terrier too. He could have played anywhere in a team except goalie and maybe centre half (not the tallest, but he could read a game ) as he was a real footballer.
I'd also be tempted to include Georgi Hagi in a top ten. Interestingly my son who has seen Zidane, Henry, Ronaldhino, amongst others, play reckoned the most skilled footballer he saw (on several occasions) was Cannigia !
Beckenbauer, Charlton, Moore, Cruyff and Platini would be my other nominations for the best.
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i think dmarotto7 is very much close to the mark imo....he doesnt say we cant have great players post 1990 the poll he refers to took place in 1998 and took a looong time to complete.it is the equivalent of this debate only with professional writers,coaches,trainers,players etc worldwide who saw all these players live not english speaking blog members ( no offence )
and too say garrincha and puskas were weak compared with giggs and zidane is an athletic issue not a talent issue,actually i think garrincha was well built with massive thighs and makes someone like giggs look skinny by comparison.
giggs is great but nothing like puskas,di stefano garrincha et al.
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Nearly 500 posts and no mention of Billy Steel? or Billy Pirie for that matter! A lot of people seem to think that players who changed the game should be worth a mention, in that case Marc Bosman was the greatest. A more quantifiable debate would be who had the best/worst mullet (same thing), in which case Carlie Nicholas might be in with a shout for something at last.
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I have read some quality stuff from a lot of posters. I read somebody who wrote Just Fontaine was average all but the 58 WC. Who is that so, he scored 122 goals in 131 matches for Stade Reims, and scored 42 times in 69 games for Nice. He was quite talented. For me, the greatest goal scorer I ever got to see was well you guessed, Gabriel Omar Batistuta! W