The best prepared award
I know you can't bear the suspense. The award for "Best Prepared Country Going Into the Crisis" goes to... Canada. And what a goodie-two-shoes economy it turns out to be.
The more you look at this country's numbers, the more you understand why Gordon Brown relegated Canada to "second tier" status in the diplomatic preparations for the Summit. It was the only bit of one-upmanship with the Canadians he could still win.
Next time the prime minister talks about every country being brought down by this crisis - or the chancellor suggests that everyone made the same mistakes - remember Canada. Nowhere is immune, but by most key measures, the Canadians are coming out of this crisis in a league of their own.
Take the banking system. Canada's banks have not just had fewer bailouts than other countries. They've had none. Zero. Not a dime.
That may change - the five banks that dominate Canada's banking sector have had to write down large losses on subprime and the like. But so far they've done without government handouts. And they have raised about £5bn in equity since October. Their shares have fallen sharply, but by 40-50% - not 80-90% as they have in Britain and the US.
As the FT pointed out today, of the seven institutions in the world that still retain a triple-A Moody's credit rating, two are Canadian banks. And as their competitors have tumbled, so they have ascended the global rankings: all five Canadian banks now rank in the world top 50.
Didn't they pay a price for that boring banking - the distinct lack of securitisation and innovation? Well, it's true, Canada didn't have a nationwide house price bubble in the lead up to this crisis. And they didn't have the same kind of rise in personal debt. That's one reason the IMF used words like "resilient" and "well-placed" in its latest survey of the country's prospects.
You can see the results of this rather old-style approach in Canada's boringly consistent rate of growth. On average, between 2001 and 2007, its economy grew by 2.6%.
Across the ocean, the City was a hotbed of global financial innovation, and we were riding a heady stock market and housing boom on a sea of debt. The result? Average economic growth between 2001 and 2007 of, er, 2.6%.
Of course, Canada has been hit by this crisis - about a third of its GDP is taken up with exports to the US. The economy shrank slightly last year and the consensus is for a decline of 1.8% this year. But it looks set to have the shallowest recession of all the G7 economies, with the smallest decline in activity in 2009 and fastest growth in 2010.
Despite the openness of its economy, Canada has not even been part of the global trade imbalances I keep going on about. It had a modest surplus in the years leading up to the crisis - now it's moving into deficit.
I'm sure someone will write to tell me the blot on Canada's economic record, the fatal policy error that will cause me to sheepishly revoke its award in a few days' time. But I haven't found it yet.
Its sober management of the public finances has even left it room for a decent-sized stimulus package for this year and next. Net debt last year was an irritating 22% of GDP.
And the most impressive thing of all about Canada's position is that you are probably reading about it for the first time. Canadians are so sensible they even have the sense not to brag, in case things turn out badly for them after all.
If the UK had these vital statistics, by now the world would be sick of hearing about them. But on top of everything else, the Canadians have guarded against hubris as well.
Goodie-two-shoes is right. If I were Gordon Brown, I'd be wishing Canada wasn't coming at all.
I'm 
© MMIX~RS~q~RS~~RS~z~RS~00~RS~)
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So the least imbalanced economically active country will be the best placed for a downturn. Also it can be described as the most economically boring. Thats no surprise. A low population and major natural resources no doubt help. Possibly even a low migration activity. But the key is to be boring. Over ambition for short term success risks poor foundations. Culturally I think the problem for the West goes back to the Romans. The current problem is growth or expansion without embedding longterm instability when the political agenda is built on a shortterm cycle between GEs. So we all need to be boring or develope a longterm strategic decision model which is independent of political party. Step forward digital democracy so the option menu is expanded away from narrow party political route planning.
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BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH, Thats all very nice.
Obvious that you dont live here!!!
BC Canada
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if the US and the majority of 'developed' world are dying from the proverbial 'cut troat'. Canada will die the death of a thousand cuts, i cannot see the latter being that favourite, perhaps even worse in the long term.
Not eveything is as cut and dried as 'Bank figures", if you lived here, you would know that!
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Brown ignores the successful?
Would adopting Canada's banking system of checks and balances seriously curtail the British Banking system?
Would there be a flight of capital to the US?
I'm also presuming that their currency hasn't bottomed either?
Well done to Canada, please take every opportunity to rubbish Crash and Burn.
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Looks like Canada ran a tight ship with a minimum of fuss. Once upon a time, a very long time ago, Britain used to be good at that.
From your story it would appear Canada generated wealth through real productivity gains. Britain on the other hand indulged itself with the petulant illusion of wealth through debt.
Well done Canada.
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Another candidate for your award: Cyprus. No bank bail-outs or write offs, and no recession. Credit goes to eurozone membership, and the process leading up to it over the last decade, and conservative banks and banking regulation.
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Aha, the land of JK Galbraith...
Do the Canadians still print "this note is legal tender" on their banknotes (presumably so that forgers' consciences would convict them of lying)?
If so, perhaps they have every right, because their currency is still worth the paper it's printed on.
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A pity this rather boring-sounding journalist has to jump all over that well-worn saw that Canada is 'boring'. Not very original. And rather ignorant. One expects more from a BBC journalist.
Try substituting 'sensible' for 'boring' and the article makes more sense. And by the way, a sensibly run economy is perfectly consistent with a culturally innovative and reasonably exciting country. Take some examples. Dan Akroyd, Donald Sutherland, William Shatner, John Candy, Robert Bateman, Emily Carr, Conrad Black, David Cronenberg, Jack Warner, James Cameron, Bryan Adams, Leonard Cohen, Glenn Gould, K.D. Lang, Sarah McLachlan, Oscar Peterson, Alanis Morissette, Neil Young, Pamela Anderson, Margaret Atwood, Saul Bellow, Robertson Davies, William Gibson, Michael Ondaatje, Jim Carrey, Mike Myers, Frank Shuster, Le Cirque du Soleil. Um, clearly a boring lot, yeah? By the way, I don't come from Canada or live there.
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Stephanie,
Do you think the fact that Canada suffered a deep and severe banking and credit crisis in 1965 because of the Atlantic Acceptance Fiasco, and after that they put rules and regulations in place to prevent a similar event.
Maybe todays relative safety is just more that Canada has learnt hard lessons from a previous error.
AM
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How about Norway?
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Why is everybody acting all surprised about the credit crunch? I opted to emigrate to Canada 2 years ago and sold my house 15 months ago. I'm just finishing the emigration process now.
Any system with all carrot and no stick (e.g. guaranteed bonuses) was never going to work long-term.
Equally, any system with all stick and no carrot (e.g. appraisals and criticism but no bonuses) won't work either, which is why this country can't get physics/maths teachers.
Re the comment about the Roman empire - it has been argued that the major factor in its collapse was the unwillingness of the rich to pay their fair share of taxes. Leonora Helmsley was the beginning of the end, and the current non-dom situation is a good way down it.
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Stephanie Flanders has got it absolutely right!
In a far less brilliant way, the rather "boring" reason why Canadian's were not "sold out" by their leaders was a former Prime Minister, Jean Cretein, who probably didn't understand the new fangled economics and wisely refused to step into such uncertain waters. What followed Cretein has been a succession of minority governments, both Conservative and Liberal, whom were all too ready to take the "leap"; but were constrained by minority status. It may be a little hard for Canadians to brag about such an ignoble wisdom. I'd like to think we Canadians are dull and too Goody Two Shoes as long as the bank account remains. How's that for boring?
reason why
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#8 - noetus
Conrad Black. That would be the one unavoidably detained in circumstances he would rather have avoided is it?
Anyone can Goggle famous Canadians then use copy/paste. What is your point?
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But even Canada, it seems, has fallen for that nonsense about a "decent sized stimulus package" being required to end the recession. Presumably the money will be borrowed - which will mean it isn't available for the private sector to borrow. Or maybe it will be "printed" - which will mean it won't lead to growth, just inflation. And wow, they "only" have a debt equivalent to 22% of GDP. Why is it regarded as obvious that countries have to have net public sector debt at all?
Seems to me that the Canadians have made the same mistakes as we have, only to a lesser degree.
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Is there anything in the idea that Canada achieved its growth by 'free-riding' on cheap Anglo-American credit?
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Now I would never have believed it - Canada! Your kidding aren't you? Seriously - Canada? Wow!! Or something along those lines.
That all supposes that preparedness is predicated upon the banks and the financial system. Now, just for one moment, we put aside the financial system (if only because people keep telling us it's broken), and then look at the REAL economies of the world then who in REAL terms is best prepared?
I know it's not the UK and I doubt it would be Canada (with apologies to all Canadians who may read this. I'm not having a go at you - honest!).
let's just say for a moment the UK says "can't pay, won't pay". What happens next (apart from a lot of Chicken Little cackling)? Ultimately nothing. We would be excused some of the debt and a deal would be done on the rest. Life would be tough for a few years but ultimately things would retun to 'normal'. Therefore, let's start focusing upon the REAL economy and stop wasting our time and efforts fretting about bankers etc.!!
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Being from Chicago I sometimes longingly look northward. As a lifelong banker and by training an economist I known exactly the troubles afflicting the USA and our failed economic policies. The present crisis is based on living over our means for sometime and the of finding new and exciting ways to do that such as financing debt with a housing bubble. Not everyone is entitled to a home of their own and the government can't continue to finance or guarantee that. New demand (Technology)or a rise in production will not help us now as they did in the 90's. I fear that an attempt to spend our way out will just worsen and prolong the problem. As the world economy and financial system adapts to a transfer of wealth from west to east this will become more apparent. People just see they need money and forget we have to create the wealth.
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Most of what you said is correct. Our lack of a deficit and consistent budget surplus helped us not only financially but culturally too - Canadians have a big aversion to budget deficits now.
On the other hand, you shouldn't refer to this as Stephanomics. Although I am a supporter of Stephan Harper, most of the economic policies were established in the early-mid 1990s, under a 3 term Prime Minister (Jean Chretien) and his finance minister (Paul Martin) who worked wonders, although it took a lot of difficult political decisions. Doesn't this sound familiar to you Brits? However after Martin finally took over from Jean Chretien he crashed and burned, but unlike Gordon Brown didn't last long enough to have a financial crisis to show up where he could show off his expertise.
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#8 noetus
Sorry, but I drifted off to sleep at my desk while reading your list. What was the point you were making?
#12 knarf
Important distinction: the Canadian PM has two E's in his surname, Brown only has one!
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"Not a dime" -
Not quite true. The federal government (in the form of the Bank of Canada, the central bank) has been buying mortgages from the banks for cash. Roughly C$ 25 B so far.
The blot on the economic record -
There has been one egregious policy error: The replacement of Paul Martin with Stephen Harper. Paul Martin put Canada's financial house in order after the profligacy of the Mulroney years. His reward was to be given the boot. I don't even remember why.
In two years of trying to bribe voters into giving him a majority Harper squandered much of his predecessor's effort.
In an age where we have to use fewer hydrocarbons and more renewables, we have a government that is in the pocket of the oil industry and removes tax incentives for building wind farms.
In an age where education and innovation are critical to economic success, we have a science minister who doesn't understand that science and religion are different things. Pathetic.
Hubris and nemesis: The Harper government is our reward for smugness.
And finally -
Happy Birthday Canada. Today is the 60th Anniversary of Confederation.
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Stepahnie
Please can you tell us if Canada has an NHS equivalent or free education or a welfare state like the UK?
just wondering if this is a rather inaccurate comparison, it will be better to compare apples with apples
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This is a great article. The people who are saying "you don't live here, it's really bad" clearly don't know what it's like in other countries.
I don't think many people in Canada realize how bad things are in other countries. Elsewhere banks are going under; major high street retailers are declaring bankruptcy; jobs are being lost at a far higher rate than here.
Yes things are bad here, but in other places things are a lot worse. It's not that we aren't bragging about it; it's that most of us don't even realize it.
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It's all very well saying Canada is best placed etc. However, a bit like Australia, the vast majority of Canada's wealth comes from minerals and mining, including Alberta's tar sands. The oil price has plummeted, meaning many of their tar sands developments are now marginally economically viable, and billions of dollars of investment have been put on hold. Similarly mineral prices have slumped significantly. The levels of unemployment are rising significantly, the Canadian offices of my own company are cutting large numbers of staff and imposing up to 9% pay cuts on those who are left.
Best placed? Hardly!
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jhs001:
Canada has universal education to the 12th grade, as well as universal healthcare, but both of these are managed at the provincial rather than the federal level. Canada also has social welfare (once again administered by the provinces), but probably not as strong here as in the UK... There's no such thing as "council houses" and the able bodied in Canada generally find it necessary to work.
Our strength is tight fiscal and monetary policy, and a banking system that is regulated and yet hugely profitable for the players involved. There's no "cheating" involved here... We have both moderate social spending and a decent economy that has been carefully managed to avoid "bubbles".
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@ jhs001
Yes, Canada does have the relative equivalent of the NHS (called Medicare) which is partially funded by the government (provincial, I believe), and partially by means-tested payments if you're working and by welfare if you're not. If you're on benefits (welfare), your prescriptions and many other health services are paid for, up to a point. Pretty much like the NHS only with less red tape/postal code lottery nonsense.
It hasn't been mentioned here, I notice, but by law (in Alberta, at least), the provincial government is forbidden to run on a deficit and have run on surpluses for nearly 10 years now (since the Klein era, anyway - one of the only good things it's said Ralph Klein ever did for Alberta) and thus in a much better position to weather out the mess the Americans and Brits have gotten the rest of us into. I had heard of at least one or two other provinces having something along the same lines but implemented only fairly recently, leaving them in somewhat of a less-prepared position than Alberta. (Saskatchewan being one of the only provinces where it seems to be unaffected, possibly due to the relative lack of industries other than farming and potash mining.)
The US and Britain (and other countries) would do well to follow Klein's example, imho. That way there would be less of a 'buy now, pay later' credit culture and less of people living beyond their means, and more of people living within their means and less defaults as a result.
I'm proud to be Canadian, but at the same time, still wouldn't live there if I had the choice, even with the current economic problems. Economy aside, the politics leave a lot to be desired, as does treatment of minorities and immigrants (the treatment of my husband when we emigrated there years ago made it pretty much certain we'd never go back, and he's BRITISH/WHITE....). It seems for every up side, there's a downer, eh?
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Hmmm... In industrial terms Canada is very advanced.. It has one of the best fuel cell companies on the planet, produces a lot of bio-ethanol and already has at least one large scale carbon capture test plant running..
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noetus [#8]: Perhaps if you lived in Canada you'd be less concerned by the stereotype - but to say that Canada "is in a league of its own" is hardly boring. I did suggest that Canada's banking was boring, but right now that's a big plus. Otherwise I used words like "sensible", "sober" and "resilient" - all highly-prized characteristics in the global economy of 2009. It's not my job to talk up the artistic heritage - but you've done a good job of that for yourself.
Cyborgia [#10]: Norway is a good idea - especially since it seems to have been put its oil to good use (unlike some). But, luckily for Canada, it's not in the G20, so the prize is safe.
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If you're interested in the Canadian economy, there are some good blogs about it - you might start with Worthwhile Canadian Initiatives if you don't mind a bit of deep economic theory too.
On the issue of why Canada is well protected from the coming recession, there are some interesting issues of psychology which affect the choice of which industries to invest in and who to trade with. These also apply to the UK but more so to developing economies. Click here for more on that subject.
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The Alberta sand-oil bananza sounds great until you start to read about the environmental and other costs of extraction.I've seen some differing stats on their trade reliance with the US which could hurt them. Talk of greenhouse gases and moon-scapes might indicate a liability carried forward. Otherwise, hats off to the Canadians!
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Canada? Where's that?
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Just to answer a previous thread about comparison, Canada has an NHS equivalent called Medicare and also free education and welfare system.
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Twickers69:
It is true that a large part of our economic stability has come from natural resources. But unlike, say, Norway, we are not a one-resource nation. In addition to having as much oil in reserve as Saudi Arabia (if one counts the tar sands), we are also the second-largest producer of uranium, a major extractor of natural gas, and well-positioned to develop alternative energy sources as well, be it solar, wind, or biofuel (the latter two are already seeing significant development here). We also produce/extract significant amounts of gold, nickel, potash, diamonds, timber, and so many other things that if the market for one resource flags, we have a diversified portfolio of other stuff to fall back on. So, yeah, we may be hewers of wood and drawers of water or however that silly saying goes (I prefer drawing beer myself), but hey, it works for us, and probably will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. Not to brag or anything...
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ahoy Stephanie
I split my time between the UK and Canada; planning to spend more time in the latter as it does have some advantages due to smaller population and high levels of training/education and I have a farmhouse there so know the ins and outs of it
You're basically right that Canada is in pretty good shape economically, though some of your figures for depth of recession (-1.8% this year) and a quick bounce back next year look like out-of-date ones from the over-optimistic Bank of Canada; I've seen recent predictions of -2.5% for this year but that's still better than the States, Japan, UK and EU members
Canada is in reasonable shape (despite exposure of the manufacturing heartlands of Ontario/Quebec to the US slump - particularly GM/Chrysler) because of extensive, good regulation of many aspects of govt, especially banking and provincial/federal budgets
Ironically, the Tories under Stephen Harper were very keen to dismantle all of this regulation, as they are right-wing Bushites, but failed to manage it as can only get a minority depsite 3 attempts, the last one against the worst Liberal leader in memory, Stephan Dionne (no relation to Celine but as bad...); Harper refused to recall parliament after the last election and remains somewhat in denial that there is even a global recession; also suspect he might be a climate-change denier but it seems unlikely that he'll get back in next time as Ignatieff has returned from Harvard/Oxford to restore the Liberals to power.......
An odd coindence that you are a Stephanie, Canada's PM an Stephen and last year's election was against Liberal Stephan Dionne
There was/is a housing bubble in Vancouver and Toronto as well as Alberta, but most of the country looks very affordable compared to here. In my neck of the woods (rural Eastern Ontario) you can buy 3-bed fixer-uppers for 50,000 pounds ($90,000) or less! Salaries about same as UK so no need for a big mortgage unless you get greedy (which some people do, proceeding to build ghastly looking McMansions)
Not a perfect place though; Canadians are very friendly but can be grumpy, as some of the posts on here indicate, and there is very bad feeling between the Tories and Liberals, as well as between Alberta (neo-con rightwingers) and Ontario (liberal do-gooders and immigrants) and Quebec of course (French-Canadian); and the native/aboriginal people are marginalised
And of course the exploitation of the tar sands is a very unfortunate dirty source of income now; on the other hand, many provinces have excellent energy audit programmes and govt grant schemes for renewables
And we aren't gun toting Yankees and refused to go along with the Iraq invasion though foolishly now embroiled in Afghanistan
And best of all Ontario has a publicly-run alcohol monopoly with subsidised prices for beer, wine and spirits and all the profits of our boozing going back into the public coffers!
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Twickers69.
You are way out of date, take a look at the oil futures market, Canada's tar sands are about to become 'black gold' again.
Having been to Canada I congratulate Canadians on a polite, mature, integrated and tolerant society which is also refreshingly free from vomiting drunks. It is no surprise to me that they manage their Affairs of State so well.
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Canada's health care system is *not* called Medicare. Medicare and Medicaid are US terms associated with that country. What Canada has is called RAMQ (Regie de l'Assurance Maladie du Quebec) in Quebec, OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Plan) in Ontario. And don't even ask me about other provinces ...
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Hi Stephanie,
Nice article, thanks!
I see that some people don't understand sarcasm, so they get really upset about your use of the word boring. I'm Canadian and really appreciate your narrative. By the way, even if you were serious, we WANT our banks to be boring - Cassinos should be exciting, not banks...
Keep up the great work. We love your blog!
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Hello from near Toronto,
I'd temper some of this praise with a warning about wages in Canada. They have been slumping for decades and, like the Yanks, we must buy cheap rubbish from China, rack up credit cards and move ever further out into the suburbs in order to maintain that middle class atmosphere. A lot of workers in Canada are stuck at the $8-10-12/hr level and will never move up. Wages like that do not cut it in an advanced economy.
Distribution of income is better here than in the UK or USA but has still shifted in favour of the upper parts of the social pyramid. The blame for that has to go to 30 years of slavish imitation of neo-con nonsense imported from elsewhere. (Yup, that's called a colonial mindset and no matter what people say it still exists). Most middle and working class Canadians, even recent immigrants from the Middle East and Asia, have internalized a lot of right wing nonsense about taxes, wage rates, unions and treatment of working people. It is unreal to hear the way many Canadians talk now. The country made its greatest progress when it fancied itself to try and follow Scanindavian models before 1980 or so. Nowadays, you'd be very frightened to hear the way people talk, particularly the suburban Boomers who have no meaningful memories of the Second World War or Great Depression. The past few decades of neo-con brainwashing my really come back to bite the very economic managers who want to maintain prosperity and steer this trade-dependent country through coming times.
There is a nasty side to Canada's economic conservatism. Ask anybody in the arts for instance (starvation is frequent). Constitutional/language issues are often problematic, too. Immigration/demographics - huge can of worms. Foreign ownership is far too high. Nonetheless, we are a very lucky country since 1945 and hope to continue to be.
Thing is, don't watch Canada, watch Ontario. That's the big province in the centre of the country that hangs down into America almost as far as the same latitude as northern California. Why? Well, that's where the money and manufacturing have been located traditionally. You'd be very surprised at Ontario's very high level of industrialisation and economic stats for 8m people. At one time we were the world's number three auto exporting jurisdiction. Where Ontario goes the country goes even if other regions do not like that. Ontario is literally facing a future of deindustrialization and communion with the rust belt of the northeastern United States. A worrisome prospect considering much farm land here has been used up under suburban sprawl and the mining/commodities boom is over.
It'll be an interesting next few years for Canada and those watching her. As for other countries, I am hoping for the best here. There are no guarantees unless economic leaders finally chuck their neo-con pseudo-policies.
Cheers, Stephanie! Please come and visit.
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-------( jhs001 wrote on this board : Please can you tell us if Canada has an NHS equivalent or free education or a welfare state like the UK?) ----
As a first generation Indo Canadian let me humbly say few things about my adopted country to Ignorant readers with poor history or geography knowledge on this board.
Canada was the best country to live in as per UN for Seven consecutive years in late 90's and early 2000. Social welfare in Canada is better than in USA. Canada has universal health care system accessible to all its residents unlike in USA. Canada is the second largest Land mass next to Russia with a population of 30 million. Our country is blessed with many natural resources including Oil and Gold. Canada is the ninth largest economy with GDP at $1,564,000 Million and Per capita is $ 38200. Our government is Parliamentary system (Thanks to British) with Queen still as head of the state and we all still pledge our alliance to the Queen.
Canada has many innovations to its credit including insulin , telephone, telephone handset, television system, wireless radio, light bulb, Imax movies , blackberry of rim, basketball, ice hokey, television camera, electron microscope, compound steam engine, chocolate nut bar, calcium carbide , bone marrow compatibility test, gramophone, film colorization, java , kerosene, heart pacemaker, McIntosh apple, paint roller, railway car brake, railway sleeper car, radio-transmitted voice, quartz clock, prosthetic hand, process to extract helium from natural gas, zipper and many more things.
Canada is the largest immigrant country with approx 0.2 million migrants arriving yearly in addition to refugees. Canada is least racist and predominantly multicultural among the G 7 nations. Canada is like French and British combined into one and is bilingual.
Most Canadian banks are top ten in the world and the reason for its sustainability is because of tight regulation by the government. Asverage housing price in major cities across Canada is around $300,000 and the variable interest rate on the mortgage I pay now is 1.75 %.
Canadian armed forces were mostly for UN peacekeeping except for current Afghanistan mission. As a western nation we are fighting the dirty was of US and British sacrificing our soldiers for the stability of the world.
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A few years ago as an 18 year old in Britain I was given a credit card with a fairly generous limit of £2500 despite having absolutely no credit history.
I moved to Canada recently and have found it very hard to get credit. I ended up getting a mobile phone contract, and after a year of that I will have a record which will enable me to get a $1000 credit card.
It is boring economics, and annoying to not be able to get credit so easily, but I'm glad I'm living here now!
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The debt figure is very misleading. There is also the debt of the provinces which doesn't appear to be calculated in that figure and would add at least a couple hundred billion. There are also crown corporations such as public utilities which also have massive debts (in the tens of billions). The federal government misappropriates funds for Employment Insurance into the general budget, often making a surplus appear when they are in fact creating a liability for a social program and converting it into cash.
The banks are profitable because they rip off Canadian consumers. Free current accounts? Fat chance unless you have a fairly large deposit. Most banks will even charge you for cash machine withdrawals and cheques! The only praise I can give the financial regulation is on mortgages, where 100% and interest only mortgages were not allowed. This was good sense.
Canada has been very good at taxing its people into the ground and shooing the more ambitious outside its borders. Witness the very high number of returnees to Hong Kong and China who immigrated in the early 90s. The tax system is very complicated and punitive even for simple PAYE earners like I was (and the main reason I left the country – the other being the lack of job opportunities).
Canukqc - I had the exact opositte. Very easy to obtain credit in Canada (being Canadian born), difficult when I moved to the UK. I think it is a result of you being new to the country, not that the standards are much stricter.
I'm happy to be in the UK, even if I will inevitably be paying more taxes in the future.
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fairlopian_tubester #8 noetus
Sorry, but I drifted off to sleep at my desk while reading your list. What was the point you were making?"
;-)
Actually, they're hot on political correctness, they consider George Galloway an undesirable, declare critics of the masters of political correctness undesirables (and sometimes prosecute/deport them). Does that suggest they may be complicit in engineering this mess? ;-)
doctor-gloom (#30) "Canada? Where's that?"
After your last comment to me, I took that seriously! It's across the pond and likes political correctness even more than us.
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#23 Twickers69
Canada`s resources go much further than the oil and gas industry. The country is a major supplier of electricity to the east coast of the US. It has a large forestry industry as well as mining. The UK has none of these abundant resources - and what`s left in the North Sea is fast coming to an end.
The Canadian economy produces real goods and products as opposed to the phony paper which the UK economy has been built around for the past decade. It is true that recession has hit Canada as it has every other country in the world but if you genuinely believe the Canada is no better positioned than the UK than you have been a student of the Gordon Brown school of economics for far too long!
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34. At 4:35pm on 31 Mar 2009, MorpethExile wrote:
Twickers69.
"You are way out of date, take a look at the oil futures market, Canada's tar sands are about to become 'black gold' again."
My information is that oil has to hit $80/barrel before new tar sands projects are again commercially viable. Given the Peak Oil scenario I guess it has to one day, though the global slowdown must be pushing that point ever farther into the distance.
I see that Middle Eastern and US money is buying up all the lots in any event. Does this mean they get the product while Canada gets the huge environmentalal costs?
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#42,jd6969preston;
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the UK is any better positioned than Canada, far from it. However, I DO believe that Canada has done very well in recent years from its mineral resources, especially the tar sands. These are not currently viable- bear in mind that where most oil projects become economically viable at around 30 (US)dollars a barrel, tar sands need to get up to 50 dollars a barrel.
Note too that this is purely an economics blog - I have no issues with the people, the place or whatever ( far from it, when I visited I loved it and would seriously consider moving there ). I'm just questioning whether out of all of the G20 countries it truly deserves top spot?
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Fair enough Twickers69 - I can see where you`re coming from!!!
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Reminds me of the fable about the tortoise and the hare.
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#37 metalsteevo - well written comment. Being a "Yank" I had not realized how conservative the Canada Gov't had become. I always thought they were much more progressive and compassionate.
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ACADEMICMIND "...because of the Atlantic Acceptance Fiasco, and after that they put rules and regulations in place to prevent a similar event.... Canada has learnt hard lessons from a previous error."
Similarly, Germany doesn't want to ever be in the position again of having to print billion (Milliarden) Mark notes like in 1923... unfortunately it's a lot closer to Europe than Canada is.
I just hope Canada says to all the other G20 members "told you so"..
Remember the 'Abilene paradox' anyone? Well, welcome to the G20!
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Canada may be better placed to weather the current storm than the UK or USA, and yes it may have had equal average economic growth for the boom years - but you must look beyond simple numbers to understand the pros and cons of their demur view of mass credit.
Based on my own internet exchanges (both personal and sometimes near anonymous) with ordinary people in Canada, it is glaringly obvious to me that for the average person the conservative credit offerings have led to a lower overall standard of living than was afforded to UK residents. Luxury goods are less easily purchased, high quality versions of everyday essential items are equally difficult to afford, and the opportunity for employment (for poorly qualified or unskilled workers) by is much lower than in the UK.
I will concede that these observations are made through a fibre optic cable and not a personal visit, but they do make sense in context of this article.
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hey how come no-one has mentioned seal-clubbing yet?
it's a small part of our economy of course but that chap from the West coast of Scotland who was sentenced to jail last week might want to consider emigrating to Newfoundland!
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For sure the title is wrong. If Harper had been in power years ago the banks would have joined the rest of the western banks and been in the same trouble today. He is taking the credit but is not handling the present situation in a way that gives many Canadians any feeling of confidence about the future or that he has any real ideas to lead us through this at all.
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Its a good point, all this financial 'innovation' hasnt got us real productivity gains, we just began to believe that if we passed money around quickly enough we could generate virtual wealth.
It is quite a lot like musical chairs, we were inviting more and more people to dance but when we had to sit down we found out that no one was building more chairs.
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The Canadian banking system was established by Royalist that came from United Kingdom. It kept its traditional value of boring banking. Not like UK banks that worship greed, power and the title of "Financial Capital of the world". See vanity got you? Who have the last laugh now!
Johnny Toronto
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It's all very well being geographically lucky - countries with plentiful resources are going to find it far easier to have balance of payment surpluses than those without. I'd agree that Canada has found itself in a fortunate position - partly due to luck, partly due to, from the sounds of it, them practising what Brown preached, but then decided it didn't work in the Blair Spin Machine.
What I wonder is how Canada will adapt in the post-crisis years. Britain and the USA, along with other major deficit countries are going to have to, whether they like it or not, cut purchasing from other countries. If they have a clever man at the helm (so I'm hoping for a hung parliament in the UK, and Cable as chancellor) they'll kill two birds with one stone and reduce oil dependency in the process. Where does that leave Canada?
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Oh, and to 49 lionrampant31. I think I'd personally dislike living in Canada more due to the cold weather than having to budget a bit more tightly and forego the triple layered toilet paper!
Lets just remember that we in Britain/ the US have paid for many of these luxuries on credit cards which need to be paid off, with interest.
I think we're only half way through the act. Take another look in another 10 years and the net position may well be very different.
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I heard Gordon Brown's speech today from St Paul's cathedral today - how rude of him to ignore the Archbishop's request to give brief answers and to drone on with his ridiculous global twaddle. Equally depressing was that the Australian PM was just as impertinent in answering questions.
Gordon Brown speaks about some sectors of the media being cynical but I think his avalanche of hypocrisy in the way he hides behind all things global is the most cynical thing today in global politics.
What happened to stability in the UK - the Canadians obviously have this? Gone the same way as Prudence and Brittannia as having been ill treated by Gordon Brown and his government?
Canada also I think has proportionally, a much smaller banking/finance sector and smaller number of banks, overall,in its economy, than in relation to some of the 'bust economies' although it would be interesting to see some key stats in comparison to China?
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Maybe doing OK economically, but check out their record on climate change. Which do you think is more important?
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all joking aside, here is the new OECD report for Canada; suggests a pretty severe recession and -3.0% GDP this year, though many other countries worse
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the underlying message is that we're all in this together baby! globalisation and global corporate capitalism is a coin with a flip-side
a little hint in the current mess, that we should be making a huge effort to take care of the planet too, as it's the only one we have; the money thrown into the Citibank and RBS furnaces would pay for enough solar power infrastructure in North Africa to supply all of the EU's electricity needs!
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Am I not right in saying, Stephanie, that Australia were in the same category as Canada until a fortnight back when one of their banks went "pop" ?
Like Canada, the Aussie conservative (small "c") approach to banking matters and economic control, has kept their country's finances in a much more boring but stable state.
This is the type of control that we in the UK should expect AND demand from our government, instead of the financial chicanery that has been so increasingly prevalent over the past few years.
As it's nearing Easter, let's have a rousing chorus from Handel's "Messiah" - How about "All we like sheep, have gone astray" ?
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#49 lionrampant31
Based on my own internet exchanges (both personal and sometimes near anonymous) with ordinary people in Canada, it is glaringly obvious to me that for the average person the conservative credit offerings have led to a lower overall standard of living than was afforded to UK residents. Luxury goods are less easily purchased, high quality versions of everyday essential items are equally difficult to afford, and the opportunity for employment (for poorly qualified or unskilled workers) by is much lower than in the UK.
As an individual who has spent two decades in Canada and the past decade here in the UK I have to say that your comments above are 100% off the mark. No country on this planet can claim to be perfect and without their domestic problems but being objective and having lived in both I found life to be easier in Canada. I still have many contacts in Canada and there is nothing that we have here in the UK that is not within reach to them. I also found the cost of living to be lower in Canada (granted it was a long time ago) and wages on the whole to leave most individuals with more disposible income. All in all I know from personal experience - it`s glaringly obvious - that your claims are simply not the case.
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#57 Duncan_harris
Canada contributes 2.3% of the worlds CO2 emissions while the UK adds 2.2% - very little in it between the two countries.
To be honest whatever Canada or the UK do won't make any odds whatsoever until the US, China and India clean up their own backyards.
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Canadian banks didnt fail because they fleece their cutomers. Current and savings accounts have zero or very low interest rates. You have to PAY to have a current(checking) account! You have to PAY to transfer money to another persons bank account. PAY to withdraw cash from another banks ATM. PAY for a cheque book ($20!) PAY if you use your debit card too much. Plus lots of other charges. I emigrated to Canada a few years ago and have just moved back to the UK. The economy in Ontario is bad, as is most of Canada, only oil rich Alberta makes money, but who wants to live in -50C winters where July is the only month that doesnt have snow.
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Brilliant, BRILLIANT !!!!
Now, that's what I call a journalist/economics editor. It's good to see that the late General Leopoldo Galtieri (He of the Argentine military junta & who invaded the Falklands) has taught the BBC well. How clever of you to divert attention away from the REAL news over the weekend about the UK and onto Canada. Well Done, Stephanie !!! No wonder you call it Stephanomics - it's your version (& the BBC) of economics...almost like Reaganomics.
BTW, the real news of the weekend is what George Soros said, well, the bit that the BBC (and you) have carefully omitted. Here it comes:
"Britain may have to go to the IMF for a huge financial bailout. The UK banking system (even chaos has a system?) is bigger than the UK economy. So for Britain to absorb it all alone would be to pile up debt."
I await with baited breath on the Stephanomic view of Soros' statement.
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I'd go for Germany, myself
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#49 lionrampant31
Based on my own internet exchanges (both personal and sometimes near anonymous) with ordinary people in Canada, it is glaringly obvious to me that for the average person the conservative credit offerings have led to a lower overall standard of living than was afforded to UK residents. Luxury goods are less easily purchased, high quality versions of everyday essential items are equally difficult to afford, and the opportunity for employment (for poorly qualified or unskilled workers) by is much lower than in the UK.
Lion Rampant,
As one who shares her time between the two countries, I must disagree. In my experience, luxury goods, everyday essential, clothes, real estate, restaurants are all much cheaper in Canada. Especially if you live in Montreal, as I do half the time. If I compare a month spent in Montreal and a month spent in London, I have to say that a month in Montreal is more than half as expensive as a month in London (I have flats in both cities, because of work).
You just have to visit an average middle class Canadian household to see this. This is the land of plenty, for those who can afford it :)
However, I may be completely off the mark but I find the North American way of doing business a lot more stressful. Deadlines are getting shorter and shorter, pressure is very high and deciders seem to be stuck in a short-term thinking mood. Things happen quickly, but crash as quickly :)
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
I think you'll find that the reason there's no bragging about the more favourable economic state here in Canada, is that it's simply not very nice to be rubbing dirt in the faces of your less fortunate friends and neighbours.
Having said that, you should be aware that the so-called economic engine of Canada, the province of Ontario, is in bad shape as manufacturing bases decline (not the least of which is the automobile industry as it fights for its life dragging the many auto-parts and related businesses down with it). Steelworks have also closed, partly due to cheaper products in Asian countris.
Unemployment is rising rapidly in Ontario, more than in other areas of the country.
Even oil-rich Alberta with its dirty tar-sands is starting to feel the pinch.
All in all we should be thankful that the present minority govt. remains just that; the Conservatives under Stephen Harper, with a majority, and walking in lockstep with former president Bush, would have at least partially regulated the banks and then where would we be?
Cheers,
Expat Brit of 30 plus years.
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#18 and #51: the overall blog is called Stephanomics after Stephanie Flanders who writes it; it's not referring to Stephen Harper. To fill you in on the history, she took over from the previous BBC economics editor who was called Evan Davis; his blog was called Evanomics, so it's kind of a pun on a pun!
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With private household debt at nearly 100% of GDP (http://www.cga.org/canada/debt/), public at 22% (http://blogs.usask.ca/the_bolt/archive/2008/01/canadas_national_debt_gdp.html)
and who knows what corporate debt is, I see the Canadians in the same screwed up situation as other Western countries.
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Stephanie:
I know you can't bear the suspense. The award for "Best Prepared Country Going Into the Crisis" goes to... Canada. And what a goodie-two-shoes economy it turns out to be.
That is very good news, for the Banks of Canada...
~Dennis Junior~
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With all the praise Canada has been getting here, I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the truly dreadful weather one has to put up with there - and the recent highly published case involving Mark Steyn which revealed that Canada is not a place that permits freedom of speech and indeed where arbitrary 'Human Rights' commissars can effectively ruin a person's business or life on a politically correct whim. Not even New Labour have gone quite that far, so thanks but no thanks, Canada does not attract me at all. IMO the classic comment on Canada is still true:
'With its heritage, Canada could have ended up with American know-how, French culture and British political stability, but unfortunately ended up with French political stability, British know-how and American culture' :-)
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Re: no bank bailouts. The PM is buying up to $125 billion in mortgages from Canadian banks. That way they don't have to call it a bailout.
Re: low personal debt. Us Canadians have more then caught up to our southernly neighbours. Average household debt is at 130% income.
Re: No housing bubble. Vancouver has been called the bubbliest city in North America. Only small cities/towns and very rural areas have avoided speculation in real estate.
Here in BC, unemployment is up 50% from 1 year ago. Ontario has lost many thousands of manufacturing jobs.
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Aren't you missing the story here?
New OECD figures suggest UK will have a less severe recession than the US, Japan, Germany and the Eurozone (see p57 onwards)
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Real GDP (2009 projection)
UK - 3.7% decline in real GDP
US - 4% decline in real GDP
Japan - 6.6% decline in real GDP
Germany - 5.3% decline in real GDP
Italy - 4.3% decline in real GDP
Eurozone - 4.1% decline in real GDP
Canada - 3% decline in real GDP
France - 3.3% decline in real GDP
Other OECD - 3.9% decline in real GDP
Unemployment (2010 projection)
UK - 9.5%
US - 10.3%
Japan - 5.6%
Germany - 11.6%
Italy - 10.7%
Eurozone - 11.7%
Canada - 10.5%
France - 10.9%
Other OECD - 9.4%
Dare I say, on these figures the UK looks better prepared?
And can right-wingers (and the Conservatives tomorrow at PMQs) have the cheek to have mentioned previous negative OECD/IMF forecasts, and also mention that the OECD also said yesterday we can't afford more fiscal stimulus while ignoring these forecasts.
You bet they can!
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"Paul Martin put Canada's financial house in order after the profligacy of the Mulroney years. His reward was to be given the boot. I don't even remember why."
Simple. Martin carried the can for the Liberals' "sponsorship scandal", even though that didn't happen on his watch. In essence, the public were fed up of Liberal arrogance and petty corruption, and Harper managed to present himself as a not-insane alternative (i.e. he cranked his right wing religious tendencies WAAAAAAY down in order to appear electable). It was all slightly unfair on Martin, but such is politics.
btw, GrantBudding, "Stephanomics" is the name of the blog (after its author) and is not a reference to Stephen Harper.
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"Luxury goods are less easily purchased, high quality versions of everyday essential items are equally difficult to afford"
Oh, puh-LEASE! Where are your friends living? The Yukon?
Total nonsense. The UK is far more expensive, although the recent collapse in its currency's value has certainly made my visits cheaper.
In the UK, you get fleeced across the board. Electronic goods are WAY more expensive, cars are more expensive, public transit is more expensive, energy is more expensive, you have to pay council tax, eating out is EYE-WATERINGLY expensive...
The only things which are better value in the UK are alcohol and some supermarket goods.
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This was all due to following the teachings of our three wise men on finances: Ricky, Julian and Bubbles.
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I would add something to this debate as well. A quick comparison between Canada and Australia will show you some similarities. Both have Economies that rode the recent Commodities Boom (in Australia called the "Mining" boom), both have banks in the top 20 in the world. Australia's top 4 banks have all retained their AAA rating and are in the top 20 most profitable in the world. It all comes back to the proper regulation of markets and the fiscal conservatism of both countries.
We have both had to do it tough and both countries have a pioneering background to development of the land, and i think this flows through to being more prudent in boom times because both are countries have had boom/bust cycles based around mining.
11 years under John Howard in Australia removed most of the Government debt while still keeping universal education, universal health care, subsidised health insurance and prescription medicine. Unfortunately we now have a Labor government who is following the American model of irresponsible stimulus with no gain to the real economy. We will see how that pans out.
So lets hope that the G20 summit brings results so that their are more Canada's and Australia's, rather than UK's and USA's in the future. Somehow though i doubt it.......
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"Canada`s resources go much further than the oil and gas industry. The country is a major supplier of electricity to the east coast of the US. It has a large forestry industry as well as mining."
This misses out one other asset that is going to become increasingly important in the 21st century:
Canada has the largest supply of fresh water of any country in the world.
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Re whether Canada has an NIH or welfare system and so forth. Yes we do, an excellent one as a matter of fact - and it is NOT in any danger!! It is not perfect but it is better than having some people with no coverage at all which ensures that the cost to the system will in the end only vost everyone more because as a physician I am well aware that if any illness is NOT treated, it will only get worse and end up costing much more. (ie, someone who required to have a gallbladder removed but develops pancreatitis an sepsis and complications and spends weeks in an ICU when a 2 day hospital stay might have likely alleviated the problem earlier, timely and, effecielty and less costly for all involved!
Thanks for the article. We do not do everyting right in Canada nor are we boring (imho) but we are boring in terms of money. We ike ti save and "bet" on sure things. We are cautiou with our money. And we have a good per capita of millionaires as well so it does seem to work for many people.
Yes, we have resources but we need better policies about them - too much foreign ownership, never a good thing - first by Great Britain who looked down your noses at the "colonials" and then the US who one columnist here calls the Excited States of America. I rather like the US - the people and would have gladly voted for Obama - but I was always leary of their banking system. Too many small banks. This may work for bary Commoner's Small is Beautiful notion but not so much in finance!
I do hope the world - every country gets back on its feet. It is no time for anyone to brag or gloat! We all need to work together - this is after all, a global crisis so I see no need for sarcasm from some of the posters!
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Re Mark Steyn which revealed that Canada is not a place with freedom of speech!
Oh please - and where had he been? I can say what I want and when - even if it against a govt policy and no one puts me in jail or sues me. So, what is he talking about? With all due respec, his comment is outragous! I may not concur with he cirrent govt's policies in certain issues but they are not as bad as some govts! And we have the right to expression in our charter. And it is well and trulty exercised! OFTEN!
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#40 "Witness the very high number of returnees to Hong Kong and China who immigrated in the early 90s."
This is not a real statistic for various reasons. The chief amongst them is the fact that these people have *NO* intention whatsoever of permanently settling down in Canada. They are temporary sojourners at best !! Most of them went to Canada because, in the late 80s, the fear of a Communist takeover of HK drove many of them to try to acquire foreign passports/nationalities. Once done, they flock back to HK/China to carry on as usual. However, they have the added "value" of being a "foreign" Chinese, i.e. one who can jump ship at any time and be safe from the Chinese government.
These people have even developed a vocabulary of their own -
Endure prison - suffer and endure the hardships of living in a "barbarian" country for 5 years just to qualify for citizenship.
Astronaut parents - parents who spend enormous amounts of time commuting by air between HK/China and Canada for work/citizenship reasons.
Parachute kids - Kids educated in Canada, as a means of obtaining a Canadian passport, who are shipped back "home" every vacation to re-acclimatise them to the "real" way of life !!
Soak in oil - Kids born and/or permanently resident in Canada being sent "home" to be "re-educated" in the "proper culture" !!
To these people, a Canadian citizenship are a means to an end, not the end itself !! However, they did bring with them benefits, especially of the economic kind, in the re-generation of Western Canada. Therefore, they cannot be considered to be "fleeing Canada" because they have no intentions of being there permanently in the first place !!
That said, Stephanie's piece on Canada is a good, if somewhat wry, comment on Canada and its people. If only she'll do a piece on the "boring" people of Britain who worked hard and scrimped and saved for years only to have their pensions looted and savings destroyed by the gamblers and self-servers of this society(??) !!
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#77 "11 years under John Howard in Australia removed most of the Government debt"
Meanwhile, over here, 11 years of Crash Gordon piled on ever more debt !! You want to swap ?? We'll even throw in Comical Ali and Meddlesome for free. Three for the price of one !!
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A few repsonses to other commenters...
Glad to see plenty of people have let jhs201 (comment #21) know that Canada has a health system comparable to Britain's NHS (with similar positives and negatives). Canada is not just "US-Lite".
For commenter #1, we have plenty of immigration here! In fact the government frequently misses its target of about 250,000 people per year to add to our 31 million population. This is a far higher immigration rate than the U.S. or Australia. Difficult to compare with the U.K. because of the mobility of labour in the E.U., but certainly would exceed non-E.U. immigration to the U.K. as % of poulation. Most Canadians take deep pride in their multicultural society and view immigration as a positive.
A friend who works for a Canadian bank told me recently its easy to make money as a bank. You just switch on the lights and open the doors. You don't have to get into all this esoteric trading in securities that cannot be understood to make some coin.
However, it's not all milk and honey here, you are required by law to shovel the snow off the sidewalk (pavement) in front of your house.
PS. To commenter #18, who complained that the page shouldn't be called Stephanomics in recogniation of Stephen Harper... look at the name of the journalist who writes this page. Make sense now?
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Canada is in about the same situation as Australia - a tonne of private debt about to get converted to public debt. Canadian private household debt is at about 100% of GDP and 120% or more of disposable income. Corporate debt I couldn't get a figure for, but let's guess at 50% GDP. 22% of GDP is the public debt. With debt levels then at possible about 170% of GDP this puts Canada in the same situation as everyone else. What's Stephanie talking about? Is this some kind of attempt at saying something positive for the sake of it?
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#49 "Based on my own internet exchanges (both personal and sometimes near anonymous) with ordinary people in Canada, it is glaringly obvious to me that for the average person the conservative credit offerings have led to a lower overall standard of living than was afforded to UK residents. Luxury goods are less easily purchased, high quality versions of everyday essential items are equally difficult to afford,"
And is that a bad thing ?? While Brits can "afford" these goods by selling their souls to the Devil, the Canadians scrimp and save to be able to afford the same goods !! So who are the fools now ??
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#58 "although it would be interesting to see some key stats in comparison to China?"
Just to start you off, China has 4 main banks and a whole bunch of smaller, mainly foreign banks. It also has an insurance company that had been given the license to operate a bank in a JV with HSBC. All this in a population 20x that of Britain and that population has a millennia long culture of saving for the rainy day !! All major Chinese banks operate as prudently as possible because the penalty for failure is "not survivable" !!
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#57 "Maybe doing OK economically, but check out their record on climate change. Which do you think is more important?"
When you are worried about where the next meal is going to come from, you will have little time to worry about climate change. Britain may soon be in that situation if Crash Gordon has his way with the economy !!
FYI, Canada is automatically "greener" than Britain simply because much of it is still in its natural state whereas Britain is covered in cities, empty and/or abandoned properties and acres upon acres of unsold cars !!
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#63 "(even chaos has a system?)"
If you studies Mathematics, you'd know that there is such a thing as the Chaos Theory !!
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#72 "Vancouver has been called the bubbliest city in North America. "
Vancouver/Hongcouver is an automatic bubble because the Honk Kong immigrants cannot live without a housing bubble, specially imported from Hong Kong to make them feel more at home !! Nothing to do with the rest of Canada !!
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#2 Fourmonkeys,
Obviously you've never lived anywhere else.
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hi Stephanie
odd that my post #58 was stopped and my rather irrelevant #50 was allowed; strange moderation
anyway, #58 was a link to the new OECD report, which I assume is not a banned organisation at the BBC? here's the link
http://www.oecd.org/document/59/0,3343,en_2649_34109_42234619_1_1_1_37443,00.html#country
it is a handy report, with little flags for each country; click and get the latest report for Canada, with stats and graphs
it is far less positive about Canada than your figures, which must be out of date; says Canadian GDP likely to be -3.0% this year and approx 0 next year, though this is still better than most other OECD countries
generally I would back up the comments about Canada generally having a better quality of life than the UK in most areas, which is the key issue really, rather than cold economic measurements
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RE: "Is there anything in the idea that Canada achieved its growth by 'free-riding' on cheap Anglo-American credit?"
Much as it could be argued so-called "cheap Ango-American credit" was actually huge Chinese capital [that China] mopped from selling 1-dollar inferior goods to less discerning third world nations? A biologist would call it "the food chain" oops money chain. At least, Canada used it's "credit" wisely. Figure the irony of this comment?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Any chance of your blog or at least the gist of it appearing on the main evening news ... mmmm?
Providing of course this gets past the ''moderators''
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opinion8ed1 wrote:
#2 Fourmonkeys,
Obviously you've never lived anywhere else.
Just for you, expat Brit, retired at now 42 (made a fortune flipping houses in West Sussex between 1998 2005)
l wont bother to qualifly the other places ive lived and worked, i would no doubt have to supply you with a map.
Grow up.
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# 20 - Actually, Canada became a country in 1867. Tuesday was the 60th anniversery of Newfoundland's entry into Canada as the 10th province.
#62 - I hope you're just being sarcastic. While we do have cold winters, -50 happens in the north. Where I live, north of Toronto, we sometimes get into the -30's, but that's with the wind chill, and only in January and February. Right now, the snow is gone, the crocus's are poking throught the soil, and the robin's are back. We're about 3 weeks behind Toronto though.
So Canada is boring? Hardly!!! Maybe economically, but certainly not in anything else. And as for the poster who said that Canada was expensive, I spent the month of May in the UK last year on vacation, and prices on pretty well everything were double what they are at home. Housing prices in the UK are something that most Canadians find unbelievable, and wonder how people ever pay off their mortgages. My house, which isn't large, is about 6 years old, fully detached 2,000 square feet, 3 BR, 3BTH, on a lot that backs onto green space, and has been assessed at approx $344k. In pounds sterling, that's about 175 - 185k. And I'm about a 30 minute communte from Toronto.
What would you get for $185k 30 minutes from London?
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A REGULATED FREE-MARKET: AN ORWELLIN OXYMORON IF EVER THERE WAS ONE
FrankSz (#84) "What's Stephanie talking about? Is this some kind of attempt at saying something positive for the sake of it?"
Very probably. She is, I believe, a reporter.
Reporters these days appear to write sophisticated gossip as far as I can make out. There is very little substantive/critical reporting per se. Truth is an alien concept.
Why do I fear saying this may be deemed 'offensive'?
Reporters' gossip, presented as serious news/analysis is, I fear extremely bad for our economy, social stability and sanity. not to mention the fact that idiots in trading rooms and investors (the smart ones are geeks in the 'back-office') respond to what's on the news, calling this market-forces.
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Dear Stephanie,
I'm from small country that really suffered because of crysis. We weren't ready for such "mass destruction" in the financial sector and now we depend on help from IMF.
I don't think that Canada is a good example of well prepeared country. I even think that Canada "is boring" (shame, but it's true). US has Microsoft and Google. And a lot of IT industries. Believe me, this is more important for any country (in these times) than minerals, cars, banks, etc. In future You will see that people from China will manage world's economy by using in US developed IT tools and using US programming standards. That is the real force.
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Hmmm... I no longer live in Canada secondary to employment options for nurses back in the 90s, however I do have family back in Southern Ontario who keep me abreast of things. In my home town, one of the two steel mills has been shut down "indefinitely" until business picks up. In my 40+ years I do not ever remember a complete shutdown, slowdowns yes. The other plant, a non unionized environment based on bonuses for performance, is cutting hours but still maintaining it's work force in an employed capacity. All is not so rosy in the north. Having enjoyed credit in both countries now, I have to say it is much harder to get credit in Canada than in the US. In Canada there did not seem to be the idea that I had a "right" to own my own property. It was a privilege based on your ability to manage your finances. When I purchased my house here stateside it felt more akin to "here's your cash now prove yourself worthy of my faith in your fiscal responsibility!" It was a wonderful opportunity but I think a double edged sword to those with poor management skills.
Oh...and to those bragging about our skills, resources and secret virtues??? SHHHHHHH.... the neighbours are listening. We like it when they think we're dull. Might be safer that way.
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My son (an economics major at a Canadian University) have been debating the issue - what is it about Canadians that makes us (as a rule) a little skeptical and financially conservative (the small 'c' kind)?
I think it is because we ARE hewers of wood; oil; minerals; wheat; haddock; beaver pelts and whatever. All of those pesky commodities give us a boom and bust attitude. In the oil patch; we always said - whenever things are going good - prepare for the next bust. We have no illusions that the good times last for ever.
I also think it is because our 'parents' (Britain and France) and our 'sibling' (USA) have managed to talk us into some pretty stupid stuff over the years. Remember WWI and WWII? Why did we (proportionately speaking), put so much effort into conflicts that were a half a world away? During WWI - there were so many Canadian men in the trenches of France that it was a population of Canadians only surpassed by the cities of Toronto and Montreal!
Don't get me wrong. We love ya (you are family) but we are now starting to understand that you guys aren't the end-all and be-all when it comes to new ideas. You must admit, you have come up with some pretty stupid stuff over the years. Sorry. But it's just the way it is.
And now that we are 'all grown up' - we want to make our own mistakes.
Wasn't it Canadian Prime Minister Laurier who said the 20th century belongs to Canada? Well, maybe he was only off by a century.
And remember, we have a lot of time to think up stuff during those long cold winters.
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#96 "What would you get for $185k 30 minutes from London?"
A dog house ??
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There are many things that the current Canadian Government have done to support the economy one of the main ones being to reduce our GST [VAT for you Brits] down from 7% to 5%.Keep in mind that the Provinces have a provincial sales tax [except for Alberta]to pay for their Health programs educations programs etc.
The Oil sands gets a bad rap because it is politically correct to do so but here in Alberta we have less air pollution than the holier than thou counterparts in Ontario [ we do not have smog days, what is that anyway?]Alberta just received a major "green" award for their 3 billion dollar carbon capture program but nobody will want to talk about that.
There are many pieces to the puzzle and sadly I am not confident that politicians are generally smart enough or have strong enough character to make the right decisions
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I've never had a problem with the appellation "boring." I've always argued it helped keep the riff raff out. As far as the economics go, like everything else it has its plus and minus. Sometimes the downside of "risk adverse" is missing real opportunities.
The odd thing here, however, is that many of the characteristics that make us "dull" are the result of a UK background (Britain, Scotland, Ireland). How'd that happen?
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The Federal Government has paid off 100 Billion Dollars in Debt over the past 10 years. They have also been reducing taxes.
The province i live in, Saskatchewan, is projecting a surplus next year and positive GDP growth. The only thing holding us back is the labour shortage.
http://www.saskjobs.ca/
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Someone here claimed that we had Chretien to thank for our current banking system. The last Bank Act and any banking regulations imposed by a Canadian government was 1991 - before Chretien. The Bank Act of 1991 was in fact passed by his archrival conservative PM Brian Mulroney. The only thing Chretien did was say no to bank mergers - that is not a hero's feat. It could even be argued that had he allowed the merger of some of our banks, our banks may have been even better positioned than they are now in the world - we will never know. Chretien was a bumbling fool who really didn't do anything for Canada but ride out a global economic boom in the 90s. Trudeau, Mulroney, Martin and Harper have all done more for Canada than Chretien.
For an average citizen like myself I don't really take any comfort in the state of our banks. Employment numbers matter to me. We're no better off than the US in this regard. I fear becoming one of the unemployed.
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Boring perhaps but richer than Britain.
It must be difficult for colonial Britain when the former colonies surpass them in wealth. Both Canada's and Australia's GDP per capita is about 10% higher than Britain, with Canada having the second highest GDP/capita in the G7. The backhanded tone of the article says more about the "old" colonialist than the former colony.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ca.html#Econ
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It is a complete misrepresentation to give our present Prime Minister Stephen Harper credit for Canada's preparedness for the present global economic fiasco. First he actually took us into deficit prior to this downturn, with an ill thought out cut to our GST, the equvilant of Britains VAT. He did this as a political ploy against all advice. At the same time he cancelled a reduction in income taxes. These acts along with porr spending practices served to reduce income to Canada's treasury and eliminated surpluses to pay down debt. The one person who is responsible for our present envied position is Paul Martin who as fianance minister eliminated the deficit and payed down our debt for over a decade. He was also the driving force behind stopping our banks from entering the crazed gambling casino now called global banking in the 1990's during the Cretien years.He left the Harper Conservative government a 12 billion dollar per year surplus which Harper squandered in 18 months. Factually, Mr. Harper spoke out against the continuing regulation of Canadian banks as Executive Director of the National Citizens Coalition (a far rightwing think tank) and later, leader of the Loyal Opposition. I realize it would behoove most economic commentators to give credit to the Liberal Party of Canada's 13 year responsible governance of this country and inparticular the Right Honourable Paul Martin but it is where the credit falls. So even though it may irk the author Martinomics is a far more accurate buzzword to explain Canada's enviable economic position at present. Next time do more research as us Canadians watch what all the world does and says.
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20. At 2:25pm on 31 Mar 2009, Interestedforeigner wrote:
"Not a dime" -
Not quite true. The federal government (in the form of the Bank of Canada, the central bank) has been buying mortgages from the banks for cash. Roughly C$ 25 B so far.
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But the government only bought mortgages that it was already guaranteeing; if the mortgage defaults, the government is no worse off than it would have been in the first place, and if the mortgage is paid off, the government profits on the interest rate spread.
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I hope the world listens to PM Harper's voice of sanity. The world doesn't deserve to go down the road to Socialism.
Yes, banks need to be regulated by rules, but not owned by government as Obama is promoting. He is a scary dude. Pay attention folks.
I'm proud that Harper didn't buy into the Liberal's KYOTO ripoff. After all EX-Liberal PM's Chretien and Martin have ulterior motives to invest in China. They have Power Corporation there, so of course they love the KYOTO scam.
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Well I am proud to be canadian!!! most of the comments you will see from my fellow canadian's that don't agree they probably didn't have the foresight to plan lol or perhaps are very left wing and cannot accept any positive news regarding anything that our government does
p.s they also hate the queen and also our commonwealth laws
god save the queen!!
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When I left the UK to live in Canada in 1975 I was upset that there was no income tax relief on mortgage payments. Canada was the only OECD country that treated property owners and renters the same way. Now in light of the current crisis I think that this policy may have helped.
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48. Fawlty.
The reason that nobody is saying "I told you so" is because we're roped to an elephant, and the elephant has been in free-fall for the last 9 months. In the circumstances, we're all a little too worried about our jobs and houses.
We're also worried that the current government, which has a finely honed talent for ideologically driven social conservative idiocy, is going to throw it all away. There was yet another announcement of congenital stupidity this morning: they want to abandon the long gun registry, over the objection of all the major police forces in Canada, who use it 9000 times a day, and find it a very helpful resource.
Oddly, though, the highways are still jammed and the malls are still full. How do you explain that in a province that has lost 100,000 manufacturing jobs in the last year? Could it be that the manufacturing sector is simply not as large a proportion of the economy as it was?
To those on the blog who think that all we do is sell natural resources, think again. We do sell a lot of hydrocarbons (America's largest supplier) but Canada is also one of the world's largest suppliers of minerals, forest products, agricultural products, aluminum, automobiles (Ontario builds more cars than Michigan, for example). For all that, the service sector is much larger than manufacturing, agriculture, or resource extraction.
51. Sadly, all too true.
108. The point is that the Bank of Canada gave the chartered banks cash in exchange for rather less liquid assets.
62. & Others.
Canada does not have a particularly cold climate, and the Winters are neither particularly long nor particularly harsh. Just dress properly, and drive appropriately.
90 % of Canadians live within 100 miles of the US border. For most of us, the weather isn't that much different from Seattle, Minneapolis, Milwaukee, Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Buffalo, Syracuse, or Boston. Not a big deal.
What is a problem is heat: too hot and too humid in the summer. Except, of course, on the Left Coast, Down East, or in Newfoundland, which brings me to -
96 - Lake Simcoe
"Actually, Canada became a country in 1867. Tuesday was the 60th anniversery of Newfoundland's entry into Canada as the 10th province."
Yes, and a very Ontario way of looking at the world that is, too.
Well, just when did Canada (or, archaically, "the Canadas") become a country? In the time of New France? At the end of the War of 1812?
Canada became a self-governing Dominion on July 1, 1867. For four provinces, this is the anniversary of Confederation. Is that the same thing as being a country?
GB still ran our foreign policy, and the Judicial committee of the (British) Privy Council spent the following 50 years imposing its own views to gut the division of powers designed by MacDonald. Viscount Haldane: Your can only grit your teeth.
Britain declared war for us in 1914. Did Canada become a country in 1931 with the Statue of Westminster? In 1949 when appeals to the Privy Council were abolished? In 1981 with repatriation?
Joey Smallwood considered himself to be a "Father of Confederation", and, notwithstanding the controversial referendum results in 1948, March 31, 1949 is just as much a date of "Confederation" as July 1, 1867.
When did Canada become a country?
When Robert Borden told the British government that if there was ever another disaster like the Somme, without prior consultation of the Canadian government, not another Canadian soldier would leave our soil, that's when.
When Borden demanded a seat at the table at Versailles. "They gave us a front seat in the trenches, but won't even give us a back seat at the peace table", he said. That's when.
April 9, 1917.
August 19, 1942.
June 6, 1944.
That's when Canada became a country.
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feels good to be canadian having left the anti immigrant stance of the SNP under alex salmond in edinburgh
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I have a little different perspective living near Buffalo NY. I spend lots of time in Canada, and live in the US. The Us – Canada relation is a very strange one. Since the Canadians love a strong us dollar because it bring American income into Canada. For all those year (the 90s when things where going great) the American dollar was strong and could pump cash directly to Canada. Being 1/10th the size means its huge influx for them, and when the US dollar dropped it means jack for the US when Canadian dollars come in. For Canada it worked out great, they didn’t participate in the bubbles of the US but got to take money off the top, free of risk. Not a bad deal for Canada!
Other strange relationships between the US and Canada has lead to some good things for Canada. As been pointed out, all those raw materials go down into US, so the prince is much better since you’re not shipping it over an ocean. In addition the Canadians have done some /really/ smart things with important laws, letting Vancouver important all the junk from China, getting fees for it, then sending it south to the US.
Not that I want to talk bad about Canada, like they are sapping the US. There are things I don’t like up there, but there are parts I love (Provincial debt is the best idea ever, why or why can’t we do it only by State!) And they will feel some of the backlash too. All the Fords my family have owned were from Canada , it was still infected by Wal-mart. And as you have said they suffered a 50% from rather than a 75%.
Canada has changed allot in recent years. 1990s Canada was great, everyone was happy go lucky and things were rolling along, best buds with Canada. Toward the end of the 90s, and then coming to a head at 9/11, Canada became a ‘not-America’ in allot of respects. The same places I use to go free and was welcome I now get a degree of hostility, notable Toronto.
As for the banks, the Canadian system is one I have looked at a few times. Its ok, its very stable for the most part. I think the Us would be wise to adopted some of its system. To keep it at the same scale for population to banks, you would need 60 major banks in the US. Why suggestion would be some sort of ‘small-bank-cap’ where you have highly unregulated banks with a low maximum deposit. And then several major banks, that are highly regulated, and no maximum deposit. Try and get the best of both worlds.
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Regarding comment 21:
Canada has the equivalent of a National Health Service but its health care is provincially run (although any Canadian can receive free health care in non-resident provincial jurisdictions). The annual individual or family fees for health care vary between nothing to a few hundred dollars. Canada has a strong public education system (again provincially-run) available to all until the end of Grade 12 (about 18 years of age). Most children attend public school (and I don't mean the same kind of "public" school as the UK which is reserved for the privileged and wealthy). Canada has a strong social welfare system that is essential to the unemployed, poor, and handicapped portions of the population. This system is a combination of national (federal) and provincial programs. Make no mistake, Canada is not the USA!
I'm a Brit and a Canadian who has chosen Canada to be my home and I'm proud of it!
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After the Great Depression, most Western countries implemented various banking legislation to curtail the current economic situation. However, such legislation hinders short-term economic growth, which is why most countries repealed much of the fore mentioned legislation. The amount banks could lend against its actual holdings was given more breathing room. Not to mention the ability for banks to stack up mortgages like a house of cards. Canada was considerably more conservative with these matters. In fact, Canada was a joke within the international banking industry for years, because of its inability to play the game like everyone else. As a Canadian, I do feel a sense of vindication in that our modest financial maneuvers proved not only to be effective, but shrewd of us.
That said; Canada is by no means in the clear. As much as our economic sector remains intact, our manufacturing sector is crumbling. The oil and gas sector is not much better, as projects have been shut down or delayed due to the sharp fall in oil prices. To infer Canada is in a sound economic position would be a resounding over statement. In a global economy everyone carries the burden as much as in sounder times they reap the benefits
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Couldn't decide if the comments on Canada were tongue in cheek, sarcastic, or genuinely admiring but as a Canadian I'm very glad that (even though the recession has hit pretty hard in some areas of our country) that this is where I live. Must say I enjoyed the comments just the same but didn't care for the name Stephanomics - presuming they were named for the Prime Minister. Thanks for the award just the same.
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I left the UK for Canada in 1982. Now I'm retired, I get my Ontario pension plus a little from my last employer in UK and a small proportion of the UK pension. I have free Healthcare, plus as a pensioner, $4 (£2) per prescription, reduced transit fares, no bank charges. Would I live in England again? Judging by what I see on my visits I don't think even winning the lottery would entice me back.
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Post #30. At 4:02pm on 31 Mar 2009, doctor-gloom wrote:
Canada? Where's that?
- - - - -
Find North America on a world map, we're that large land mass above the USA. You may learn more of us former colonists more-so when our banks buy up what's left of yours.
Yes I am joking, and I hope you were also.
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Send me all of your money Brits, I know what to do with it.
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I've read all of the posts with some interest and amusement. We Canadians never miss an opportunity to squabble in public.
One issue which doesn't seem to have been addressed is that Canada doesn't rely heavily on foreign credit. Most of Canada's debt is owed to ourselves, either as individuals or corporations in the forms of bonds and treasury bills.
I'm not sure if it will make a difference or not, but it's probably a healthier position to be in since we won't have to comply with outside regulations.
The current government has flip-flopped so many times on the state of the economy that I have doubts as to whether they actually have a plan or if they're just throwing money around willy-nilly. After spending my entire working life paying for the excesses of the Mulroney years in the form of debt repayment, I'm a bit ticked that we're going back into a deficit without a clear plan.
We probably need Paul Martin back, at least as Finance Minister.
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Oh you poor pathetic Brits and Yanks...jingoistically adopting a financial system that, at it's heart, was based on the ill conceived approximations of an ex-pat Chinese financier (see Wired's excellent article on the Formula that killed Wall street - Fleet Street is "collateral" damage).
Here's the rub, so many of the comments about our great country of Canada are condescending in the manner of the upper class complaining about those irritating peasants. Oh, the winters are so dreadful and they can't make a proper cup of tea. This patrician attitude is the blindfold about your eyes which keeps you from seeing the house of cards in which you park your Jag-u-ars. The fact that the quantatative "geniuses" of Canary Wharf and Wall Street could rely on the assumption that collatorized debt obligations would always be normally distributed to place trillion dollar bets with other peoples money could only occur in cultures that were so moribund in their contempt for external reality in their quests for "success" as to beggar belief in their countries' longevity.
It's high time that your financial "engineers" be lashed to the masts for all our good. The economy is the engine of our collective societies and it cannot be left to 20 year old hustlers and middle aged thieves to operate. The incentives of your current systems make a poor substitute for morals.
While I rant, let me just add that: Canada is the second largest country in the world, we have - so far -as much oil as Saudi Arabia, more forests than all of Europe and diamonds like South Africa. We're the first nation of hockey, masters of practical ingenuity, and the best part of North America. And if you don't like the cold, we'll throw you on the fire with the rest of the financiers.
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Honestly, I really liked this post. But, as usual, the BBC has me puzzled. If the BBC is any indication of the British public's understanding of Canada, it appears to me that the British a. don't understand their former colonies; b. aren't as friendly or appreciative as they should be of Commonwealth nations. American posters here, also have very little understanding of Canada or its government. (In fact, some are downright hostile.)
For, example the word 'conservative' to a Canadian does not always have the same meaning as it does to Americans. In Canada, it means cautious and to conserve our heritage. It does not always mean 'free market' economics. (Which is why Stephen Harper's party has both very right wing and centre members. Nor is he 'a neo bushite.')
For example, one can hardly call Stephen Harper a Bush style neo-conservative. He favours the publically funded health care sytem (and refuses to use private clinics.) He's also a monarchist. Note to the British: I would suggest there are fewer republicans per capita in Canada than in Britain. And many of those are imports from the U.K.
Now, the reason for this is probably because Canada was the place of refuge for Loyalists fleeing the American Revolution. And, having a front row seat on the U.S. for 200 years, re-inforces our innate cautiousness. Sometimes that good, sometimes it's not. (Our innate Conservatism does not mean we are not socially progressive. In the 18th Century, Canada was the first place in the British Empire to pass a law limiting, with the intention of gradually abolishig, slavery. Therefore, it's not surprising that many Canadians call themselves 'fiscal conservatives,' but are very liberal when it comes to what they describe as moral issues.)
If we are a 'boring, conservative, and rather stable, it is because Canada country was founded on 'peace, order and good government.' Not such a bad thing, to my mind.
We also share the Brits penchant for 'taking down the tall poppy.' Especially if the 'tall poppy' is one of us.
I can only think this must be the reason the Brits made a big deal of Obama meeting the Queen, but the BBC failed to report that the Queen's other Prime Ministers' (Rudd and Harper) also met with her.
Honestly, can't we just be a little prouder of our mutual accomplishments?
Seriously Brits, aren't you proud that several of your former colonies (let's not forget India) are important enough nations to be invited to the G20? Isn't that one heck of an accomplishment? Why must you take down the 'tall poppy'? Enjoy its beauty for a change. I belief passing the BNA Act (which made Canada the firt former colony to become a nation, while retaining it's ties with the Crown and other parts of the Empire) may be the best thing the British Empire ever did. It set the stage for London devolving power to the colonies without bloodshed. (Not that the record is perfect. But is any country's record perfect?
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Forgot to mention this proof that Stephen Harper and his Conservatives are not a 'neo-Bushites'. The Harpers have a cat. He/she is not called 'George'. The Prime Ministerial feline is 'Thatcher.' Thought you'd like that.
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"who wants to live in -50C winters where July is the only month that doesnt have snow."
I'm sure you're joking, but if you're not then you've clearly only been to the north pole. if there's one thing that irritates me, it's people who ask me 'why i even own sandals' or tell me how i'm not going to handle the heat in *their* country.
news flash: the weather in most parts of canada is nicer than the UK, at least for 6 months of the year. check the stats. in southern ontario (where about a third of canadians live), it's between 20-30C from May until October. reguarly over 30c. we get about 3 months of snow. i met a guy from brazil who emigrated to canada in july wearing a parka!! WTF?
i went to mexico in august a few years ago and it was colder than in canada (guadalajara - at altitude). i don't understand the stereotypes and ignorance. are people too lazy to learn any facts? if that's what's keeping you from coming here, then we're glad. we don't need any more ignorant people.
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In response to Glanofons comment, yes Canada has a reputaion as a dull safe place, and maybe that is why between 250 and 300 hundred thousand people migrate there per year, that is ahead of the UK which attracts around 170 thousand, migrants per annum, and when you factor in the fact that Canada has 34 million people as opposed to the UK at 61 million it means we have twice the rate of immigration the UK does. Economically it is a diverse, and dynamic economy making it the only G8 country with a population of less than 50 million, the Canadian auto industry produces more cars than the Britian and such global brands such as Bombardier, Nortel, Blackberry, Aldo shoes, Bata, Syncrude, are known world wide and have a reputaion of innovation, Does this sound like a nation that is dull and boring? ask the 20 000 Brits who emigrate to Canada a year, they will give you a current and modern view of the country. the greatest innovation that the UK has produced in the past 20 years seems to be the ASBO..................
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Hello all, from northern Ontario, Canada.
I find it incredibly interesting to read this blog about Canada, and thought that I might add my two-cents. I own a 3brm duplex, 3 finished levels with 1800 square feet in a nice neighbourhood. I bought this place 4 years ago for $75K Cdn. My home backs onto a 20 acre greenspace consisting of 3 children's playgrounds, community garden, a tennis court, skateboard park, and in the winter time, a hockey rink. I am 26 with a 5 year old child, so this is fantastic! I can drive in any direction and within half an hour, be swimming in a lake. Wilderness and adventure surrounds me. Almost every second family has a "camp" or cottage, which is a second home on a lake, within about an hour's drive. I work about 30 hours a week, not a great job, but livable. My recreation consists mainly of hiking, camping, canoeing, and gardening (which is really gaining a lot of popularity here). There are literally thousands of freshwater lakes, many mountains, canyons, old forests and other such natural beauty here to explore. Many people I know love to escape the city on the weekends to go snowmobiling or ice-fishing in the winter, canoeing, boating, fishing, hiking in the summer and hunting in the fall. We live modern lives as well, it's not all just fishing and hunting. Our country has some of the best social programs in the world, which we pay for in high taxes. I don't mind as I would rather pay taxes than see my neighbours starving. Health care is free (at least in Ontario) and education is free until Grade 12. We have great community colleges and universities in every town, as well as satellite campuses in smaller communities.
I can honestly say that this global recession hasn't affected me much aside from making me a much more froogal spender. People that are in trouble financially tend to be those who spend in excess of their livelihoods, people who buy half million dollar homes and drive 3 vehicles. It is not difficult to find a low-paying job in most parts of Canada. It isn't impossible to live here on a low wage either.
I don't claim to represent all Canadians, this is just a small window into my wee corner of the world...
Peace out, I'm heading to work for 5 hours now, then going for a nice spring hike, maybe to take some pictures of deer and other wildlife if i'm lucky ;)
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I could write some big, lenghthy explanation of why, in my opinion, Canada has weathered this economic crisis better than many other countries, but the true answer doesn't need paragraghs of reasons and explainers, it needs only two words: common sense. Our banking system doesn't lend you money if you don't have it to spend. What an idea. Most of the problems we are experiencing come from the interactions we have with other countries who are going through crisis.....
Common sense people, does a country good.
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To westdavegray, who wrote:
While I rant, let me just add that: Canada is the second largest country in the world, we have - so far -as much oil as Saudi Arabia, more forests than all of Europe and diamonds like South Africa. We're the first nation of hockey, masters of practical ingenuity, and the best part of North America. And if you don't like the cold, we'll throw you on the fire with the rest of the financiers.
Couldn't have put it better myself, nothing to add, just kudos...
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All these blogs show you what is wrong with Canada.Canada has a total identity problem.Canada does pollute and we help each other pollute America and Canada.I live outside of Port Huron.One side of the St. Clair river is DTE and pours smoke in air from coal electric plants, the Canada side is oil refineries.We take garbage from Toronto thanks to Republican governor Engler,and also sell Ontario natural gas,we get lumber.They assemble autos while we make parts.Windsor and Detroit both pollute the lakes.And it was a Canadian company trying to sell water to China.Most Canadians live near borders of US which in turn make them very defensive about their culture which is similar to Mid west based on shared history.Individual Canadians are in almost as much debt as Americans,by the way their are almost as many fat people in Canada too.Minorities like blacks and Hispanics are not as well off as in US.They have even lower numbers of middle-class and higher numbers of poverty.A lot immigrants go Canada first then to US.That's how 2 of my great grandparents came here,still have family on other side.And they have an unwillingness to talk about anything good or bad about their country or culture.Their military enrollment is ridiculous and equipment is out dated.Their banks aren't allowed to do hardly any international banking.That's why their not in as much trouble but they depend to much on manufacturing and employment will be suffering soon.How do I know well I see Canada when I wake they are Michigan biggest trade partner and have been there a lot and I see Canadians everyday.I live on the border.I get their news Windsor and Detroit share airspace.But Canada is not US everyone knows that and as to the weather people think it's always cold in Michigan too,It not always cold we have Seasons and Hockey,too.Why do Canadians care what anyone thinks of Canada anyway.Canada has many positive things about it.No things aren't to costly in Canada.I wish US had health care set up state by state then the south could underfund it for themselves and not all of us.And my father gets his medications from Canadian drugstore and some medical procedures are cheaper in Canada.And the reason some Canadian come to US for medical procedures is the same reason other foreigners and out of Staters do.UofM has medical advancements others states and hospitals don't.Canadians can drive here to get treatment.It has nothing to do with made up(republican lies)of waiting lists or poor coverage.Oh Canada stop being so defensive.
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Faeyth - not sure what you mean by this: Their banks aren't allowed to do hardly any international banking.
Canadian banks (and insurance companies) have a huge international presence. Wikipedia has a good article on how the charted bank system works.
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Another reason I know employment is bad for both Michigan and Canada there is hardly any Great Lake freighters along the St.Clair river.Usually once it thaws you can see and hear ships everyday all day.I hope things get better soon because many people are going to be coming off unemployment soon.The last thing you want is more people unemployed and others with out benefits.
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faeyth wrote:
“Canada has a total identity problem.”
This statement is very wrong. Only Americans think Canada has an identity problem. And when Americans visit Canada, they always seem surprised when they realize they are in a different country with different rules.
Canadians have a strong identity. We wear our flag proudly when we travel.
* We are part of the British Commonwealth.
* Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II is our Head of State and her portrait is on our currency.
* Gaelic is still spoken in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
* We eat Beaver Tails at festivals.
* We drink Slushies in winter.
* We have two official languages, English and French.
* Same sex marriages is legal.
* We can vacation in Cuba.
* We can buy Cuban cigars without going to jail.
* We can skate to work on the Rideau Canal.
* According to the United Nations Human Development Index, Canada has the highest quality of life in the world.
* Canada has the world's highest tertiary education enrolment.
* The Arctic is part of our history.
* Our soldiers fought in two world wars.
...and the list goes on.....
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Perhaps we should be getting more news from economically 'boring' Canada than the 'exciting' US. They're obviously doing someting right that we're not. I'm not sure that finance is necessarily that exciting anyway, so I'd like to know more of the intricacies of what Canada's been doing with its economy for the last 10 years; its had growth and prosperity and stability seemingly, perhaps without letting idiots in banks and hedge funds run wild. More news please
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Canada's chartered banks are pretty heavily regulated. There are only five of them, down from seven. If you google Canada chartered banks, you'll find the regulations. One of the regulations is to use prudence with investments. Some of the banks did get caught with bad paper that originated from US sub-prime mortgages, but it wasn't a huge portion of their portfolios.
There was a move to deregulate a few years ago, (endorsed by our current PM, which he conveniently forgets to mention when he's taking credit for other people's work) but happily it didn't go through. Some of our good fortune in this mess has been due to the slow way we work at making changes.
We don't really have sub-prime mortgages here. If you have less than a 25% down payment, you need to qualify for Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation insurance, which is a government program, to cover potential losses. Your payments can't be more than (I think) 30% of your income, so if you can't afford something, you can't have it.
Up to fairly recently, you still needed a 10% down payment, but that was changed to 5%, and I think even 0%, but there is no such thing as an interest only mortgage, which I hear turned out to be a problem in the US. (This is off memory, so I may be getting some details wrong, but the info is easy to find.) The amortization period for a mortgage was 25 years, but I think it's up to 40 now.
As has been mentioned, we individually pay quite a lot of service charges at our banks, which is one of the things that's allowed them to generate enormous profits, even without making the kinds of investments that got your banks into trouble.
As far as I know, they'll all even post profits this year. They might just be down slightly.
They're apparently buying up US banks, so you might end up with our banks anyways, but the US subsidiaries might not have to follow the same regulations.
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About what Canada has been doing with the economy for the last ten years- paying lots of taxes, paying down the debt, cashing in on the oil crunch, selling energy, and where I am, being in a recession because of a downturn in the forest industry. It's not all sunshine and roses.
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Fascinating discussion....
I've been in Canada for 7 years now (ex UK) and like any country, there's pro's and cons so please, no "country bashing".
My take is that the Canadian economy is in pretty good shape: all the key sectors (resources, finance, manufacturing) are under pressure but they're not under water.
Some of that pressure comes from genuine shrinkage in the market (like cars manufactured in Ontario for export) while the other aspect is based on shakey consumer confidence influenced a lot by the news coming out of the US (don't forget, most Canadian's get US news feeds on their TVs).
By & large, Canada has fared much better than other countries where lending was too loose and wealth generated from paper transactions. As a previous post mentions, that's no thanks to the current Harper government though: Harper wanted to deregulate and only a minority government stopped him. Bonkers.
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Interesting blog
There are a couple of people here who want to know how Canada's standard of living and basic services structure rank with other nations. I recomment the Human Development Index as published by the United Nations annually or the CIA Worldbook as two sites that address this question. And, thanks for the attention, backhanded compliments and all, keep it up!
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[Darn it. The plan was NOT to tell anyone, Stephanie. Now you have gone and done it.]
Sorry folks. It is all a misunderstanding. The country that the UN kept ranking #1 is that other Canada, just to the left of that big yellow blob on the globe. We're the Canada with the really cold winters, (-50 on the warm days), floods in the Spring, 3-inch long misquitos that come out for the 6 weeks of the year that the temperature gets above zero and no fashion sense (who can look good in a parka?).
We don't have a real currency just some funny money with some Scottish guy wearing a tam on it. Our "democracy" is just a way to send the village idiots out of town for 8 months of the year. We have really annoying accents, eh? We aren't even a real country because we have to borrow someone else's head of state. We are only good at sports that no one else plays. And most of us only live here because at one point in time we or our ancestors couldn't get into a real country.
So don't start planning on moving here because of all this misguided glowing praise. (I hear the weather in Phoenix is quite nice all year round. Give that a try.) We will just stay here, keeping our heads down and minding our own business while you lot keep on doing such a marvelous job of running the world.
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In the eighties I came over to London to experience the Mother Country, working as an independent software consultant. I had a 6 month contract in a week of arriving (not a permanent job) and I was amazed to buy a flat and get a mortgage from a building society a week later based purely on my relatively high income from the contract. No checking was done of records back in Canada.
I thought it was great at the time since previously in Canada I had had to go through an onerous process of providing independent business income for three years to apply for a mortgage. Two years ago I got another mortgage in Ottawa and it took about a month to get approved. They questioned minor transactions in my bank account -- like money received from an inheritance. Now it all seems to the good -- at least my house value has gone down only 4 per cent or so in the last few months. No sub-prime fiasco like south of the border.
Canada has been slow to get into this recession but I don't buy that it will be the first to come out of it. During the Great Depression we were one of the countries most affected because we were heavily dependent on exports to the US. We are perhaps even more so today.
more on banking history:
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Business/Canadian+Banks+better+system/1461341/story.html
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Hi Stephanie ,
Yes we in Canada have not YET suffered a bubble as the Americans.
However Please let me tell u that the Canadian real estate is in a major bubble. Compare median home prices and salaries increases and you will see the extent of this bubble. The sad part is it keeps on getting bigger by immigration and Supply Vs Demand.
However this bubble will burst gradually.
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This is all very interesting but you forget that there is more to life than the banking system - right now it is around freezing and it has been snowing today - the only saving grace is that the sun actually comes out now and again, unlike the UK I left behind 17 years ago to move to Canada
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Boy, from someone who lives in the US, close to the Canadian border, faeyth has a typically-US picture of Canada. I think it's true to say that only those Americans who live close to the border with Canada actually know what's going on outside their borders because the US news networks only show items that affect the US directly - I'm sure there must be some kind of censorship. Canadian TV channels at least show what's going on around the world, whether it affects Canada directly, or otherwise.
Also, I was surprised at an earlier post that decried the expense of banking in Canada. I pay one flat fee of less than $20/month, and for that I get all of my banking services. Free cheques (not that I use many of those any more), free ATM (as long as it's a branch of my own bank), reduced interest rates on VISA, credit line, etc.
Al-in-all, I'd say that Canada, boring or not, is currently in a far better financial position than any other country because we're, well, boring I guess. It's been stated that Canada will be one of the first G20 nations to come out of recession and return to real prosperity. There really is something to be said for small 'c' conservatism. (Please don't confuse that with the far right leanings of Stephen Harper, Canada's answer to the Russian oligarchs.)
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SusanDe's information about Canadian mortgage regulations is quite wrong. It is now illegal to take out a mortgage with less than 5% downpayment (or 10% for refinancing), and amortization periods are now legally limited to a maximum of 35 years. These regulations were brought in last year by Stephen Harper to preserve the stability of the banking system. It effectively restored the status quo, as those types of mortgage had only recently been launched by Canadian banks.
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Ah well, I got the important stuff right.
Thanks for clarifying.
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I'm not Canadian, but my dad used to work for an insurance company owned by the Royal Bank of Canada. (His part was sold to IBM, though said company is still operating from here.) RBC is expanding quite a bit down here. (They only have two branches in my city, though.)
And, while Canada doesn't have as much financial trouble, the ripple effects of the world's economy crashing are starting to spread to Canada.
In case you want to read about financial news from a Canadian perspective, go to the CBC's money section:
http://www.cbc.ca/money/
And, if you want their nightly news:
http://www.cbc.ca/national/
BTW, I'd encourage the BBC to send people to Canada to report more in the country- not just for political reasons. Perhaps the CBC can help? (I'm sure they'd be glad to do other things besides funding Doctor Who...)
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This is an example of Canadian good governance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY79KbCptTo
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I have many other observations I could make, but to help account for the different perspectives of Canada, bear in mind you can fit more than 40 Great Britains or 2 European Unions inside Canada. While it is true that most of us are clustered in places with "better" climate & geography, there are great differences & distances between various regions here. Think of the blind men & the elephant.
As for resources being an "achilles heel", that can only be true for a short term perspective. In addition to the bounty others have mentioned, there is fresh water to consider, especially towards the future. Not to mention vast resources not yet even explored or discovered, let alone tapped. Only Russia comes even close to the potential wealth of Canada. I'd say we squander our opportunities more often than not, but it is hard to fail with so much going for the land.
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RE comment/insight; Is there anything in the idea that Canada achieved its growth by 'free-riding' on cheap Anglo-American credit?
Yes, there is something to this free ride. I suppose if England was living next door to the U.S; you'd have a similar 'symbiotic relationship' somewhat akin to what the Islands of the UK has with the mainland. It is a mutually beneficial relationship that has been developed over hundreds of years. Each has it strengths and weaknesses.
It is highly integrated with the US economy, which absorbed 79% of its goods exports and was the source of 61% of its imported goods in 2007.
James de Bruijne
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What's all this talk of a resource based economy? True, we're exceedingly rich as far as those go. But who invented Obama's beloved Blackberry? And what about the Canad-Arm? Which country has a higher usuage of the internet than the US? Which country just discovered how to use adult stem cellls in research? Oh yes, that would be Canada.
As far as getting a free ride from free trade, tell that to the Softwood industry. The US has just put tarriffs on them again, in violation of NAFTA. And why don't we have more oil refineries in Alberta -- thereby giving more jobs to Canadians? Because those jobs go to the US.
And I, for one, am sick of British publishers signing away right to their books for the whole of North America to American publishers. Why is it that Brits and Americans think Canadians don't care if Americans take all the North American rights for books. We do care. We care a lot. We would like books spelled in Canadian English. Please.
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to: Four Monkeys. You are very pessimistic. I know that Canada will
fare very well.
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The Candians' approach towards managing their economy can be summarised as follows:
Q: What's the quickest way of getting 100 Canadians out of a swimming pool on a sunny day?
A: "Excuse-me, would you mind getting out of the pool?"
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This doesn't surprise me. American banks behave like drunken sailors.
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